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Monday, January 27, 2020

Knicks Morning News (2016.07.27)

  • [NYDN] Amar’e Stoudemire brought Knicks back to relevancy
    (Tuesday, July 26, 2016 10:01:34 PM)

    The last time Amar’e Stoudemire signed a free agent contract in New York he declared “the Knicks are back.”

  • [NYDN] Amar’e retires: here are the ups and downs of his Knicks career
    (Tuesday, July 26, 2016 12:35:53 PM)

    Amar’e Stoudemire played on four teams during his 14 seasons in the NBA, but the six-time All-Star wanted to go out as a Knick.

  • [NYDN] Amar’e Stoudemire retires as a New York Knick
    (Tuesday, July 26, 2016 12:14:08 PM)

    Amar’e Stoudemire announced his retirement Tuesday afternoon — and he’s going out as a Knick.

  • [NY Newsday] Amar’e Stoudemire retires from NBA after signing contract with Knicks
    (Tuesday, July 26, 2016 7:43:00 PM)

    Amar’e Stoudemire, a six-time All-Star who played 4 1?2 seasons with the Knicks, is retiring, the team announced in a statement.

  • [NY Newsday] Karl-Anthony Towns likes Knicks’ moves, now they have to ‘make it all work’
    (Tuesday, July 26, 2016 2:46:00 PM)

    As a child growing up in New Jersey, Karl-Anthony Towns rooted for the Knicks.

  • [NYTimes] Michael Jordan Says He Is ‘Deeply Troubled’ by Recent Police-Related Violence
    (Tuesday, July 26, 2016 4:55:52 PM)

    The former N.B.A. star and owner of the Charlotte Hornets said he was “deeply troubled” by the recent killings committed by and against police officers.

  • [NYTimes] Amare Stoudemire Retires From NBA
    (Tuesday, July 26, 2016 10:40:07 PM)

    Amare Stoudemire’s greatest NBA success was in Phoenix, where as Steve Nash’s pick-and-roll partner he was one of the NBA’s most fearsome finishers.

  • [NYTimes] Cambage Makes Stand for Diverse Australia
    (Tuesday, July 26, 2016 10:39:29 AM)

    Australia has a good chance to clinch gold in the women’s basketball at the Rio de Janeiro Olympics but the nation is unlikely to win any medals for racial tolerance, according to outspoken center Liz Cambage.

  • [SNY Knicks] Amar’e Stoudemire retires as a member of the Knicks
    (Tuesday, July 26, 2016 4:02:36 PM)

    Amar’e Stoudemire has announced his retirement from the NBA after signing a contract with the New York Knicks.

  • [SNY Knicks] How will Jeff Hornacek utilize Derrick Rose?
    (Tuesday, July 26, 2016 10:05:02 AM)

    How will Jeff Hornacek and the Knicks utilize new point guard Derrick Rose?

  • [NYPost] Amar’e Stoudemire is retiring as a Knick
    (Tuesday, July 26, 2016 12:44:04 PM)

    Amar’e Stoudemire overcame multiple surgeries on both knees, led the Knicks to the playoffs in his first three seasons in New York, became the team’s first player in 14 years voted an All-Star starter by the fans and established a franchise record by scoring 30 points in nine straight games. But his most desired goal…

  • [ESPN] Wednesday’s Knicks Links: Stoudemire retiring with Knicks makes sense
    (Wednesday, July 27, 2016 5:52:31 AM)

    Wednesday’s Knicks Links: Stoudemire retiring with Knicks makes sense

  • [ESPN] Stoudemire retires as member of the Knicks
    (Tuesday, July 26, 2016 4:20:51 PM)

    Stoudemire retires as member of the Knicks

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    59 comments on “Knicks Morning News (2016.07.27)

    1. massive

      I spend a lot of my time watching YouTube highlights, and I noticed that Melo and Porzingis like to go to work from the same spots on the floor. I know somebody can pull up a shot chart to confirm/deny this, but it looks like their strength from the right post could become a detriment to their efficiencies if one guy (and it will be Porzingis) is forced to get his offense somewhere else in triangle sets. Hopefully when Melo and KP are on the floor KP can get a majority of his shots as a pick and pop shooter and a dive man and then when Melo is off the court he can post up from the right wing and tear teams up. Every time I see Porzingis I think of how good he’s going to be when he realizes that there is nothing a shorter defender (i.e. anybody) can do if he jabs them off and shoots a 15 footer. His height and quick release make him unstoppable in that area.

    2. DRed

      One thing I hope to see from Porzingis this year is an ability to torch teams that do bullshit like guard him with Marcus Smart. Smart is strong as hell for his size and a good defender, but he’s 6’4″. There is no excuse for Porzingis not to be able to score regularly on a defender a foot shorter than he is.

    3. lavor postell

      There is no excuse for Porzingis not to be able to score regularly on a defender a foot shorter than he is.

      Because Knicks bro, because Knicks

    4. DRed

      New York Knicks | 40 wins
      My [Bradford Doolittle] system isn’t buying Derrick Rose’s “super team” chatter any more than the voters did. Let’s remember where the Knicks are starting from: Their point differential last season was equal to that of a 33-win team. Over the last two years, their differential puts them at 25 wins. I’ve got them at 36 wins, dropping the Knicks into this group, but that’s still improvement.

      Leaving aside questions about how this all will work on the court — or the style they’ll play under Jeff Hornacek — just consider this: Rose’s WAR, based on his predictive real plus-minus (RPM), is below replacement level.

    5. lavor postell

      While I think 40 wins is a fair enough projection I can’t take RPM or any RPM derived statistic seriously since they haven’t released the formula.

    6. SJK

      It would be a good idea to experiment with staggering Melo and KP this year. One of them should always be on the floor. If Melo plays 30-35 mpg, I’d make sure KP is out there for all of the 13-18 mins Melo sits.

      Last year we had to watch some bench line-ups that were like Gallo, Sasha, Lance, O’Quinn, and Seraphin. I literally had to stop watching for periods in the second quarter. Please, no more of that.

      I read somewhere that one of Hornacek’s strengths in PHX was minutes management and line-ups, so hopefully that is the case.

    7. massive

      He’s already stated that one or two of Melo, KP, and Rose will be on court at all times.

    8. djphan

      I don’t really like rpm either but I got to about 42 wins also….

      what drags down any projection is rose and what causes the most variance is noah and how many minutes he is able to provide… which we all kind of know is the case intuitively…

    9. BklnBoy

      Wow, Stat played for D’Antoni for half his career (granted, separate stints). That’s pretty rare these days, a player playing 7+ years for a coach.

    10. Grocer

      My new theory is Phil had a childhood friend named Derek/Derrick and he’s trying to recapture the magic.

    11. Cock Jowles, Betting the Under in 2017

      There are three hinges for this season:

      1) Rose plays 2,500 minutes and sinks the team OR 500 minutes and thereby helps the team
      2) Porzingis turns into Dirk 2.0 OR just a serviceable starter.
      3) Noah plays 2,000 minutes and adds 10 wins OR injured in December and we’re seeing a starter plucked straight from the NBDL

      Everything else is basically set. Jennings, Carmelo and Lee are who are they are. No one’s about to become a superstar where they weren’t one.

    12. Z-man

      There are three hinges for this season:

      1) Rose plays 2,500 minutes and sinks the team OR 500 minutes and thereby helps the team
      2) Porzingis turns into Dirk 2.0 OR just a serviceable starter.
      3) Noah plays 2,000 minutes and adds 10 wins OR injured in December and we’re seeing a starter plucked straight from the NBDL

      Everything else is basically set. Jennings, Carmelo and Lee are who are they are. No one’s about to become a superstar where they weren’t one.

      Alternatively, the Knicks win 50+ games and an EC finals appearance because:

      -Hornacek coaches his ass off
      -Melo plays like it’s 2012-13
      -Porzingis puts up 20-10 w/3 blocks
      -Rose plays like it’s 2010-11
      -Noah plays like its 2013-14
      -Lee plays like Lee
      -Jennings plays like a 6MOY candidate
      -Lance plays like he did for first half of 2015-16 season
      -Bench unknowns all step up and play like above-average NBA rotation players. OK, 3 of Holiday, Hernangomez, Kuz, Baker, Ndour or Plumlee step up.
      -Front office picks up a solid player via waiver wire for a near-minimum deal

    13. SJK

      There are three hinges for this season:

      1) Rose plays 2,500 minutes and sinks the team OR 500 minutes and thereby helps the team
      2) Porzingis turns into Dirk 2.0 OR just a serviceable starter.
      3) Noah plays 2,000 minutes and adds 10 wins OR injured in December and we’re seeing a starter plucked straight from the NBDL

      Everything else is basically set. Jennings, Carmelo and Lee are who are they are. No one’s about to become a superstar where they weren’t one.

      How is it that Derrick Rose being injured all year and not playing helps the team? I know, we’ve been over his stats last year over and over again. Put that aside. Do you really think that we will be better off with Brandon Jennings starting and Ron Baker, Chasson Randle, or Sasha Vujacic backing him up than we would’ve been with Rose and Jennings? Really?

    14. Cock Jowles, Betting the Under in 2017

      http://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/carmelo/derrick-rose/

      See how the TS% and USG% are on extreme ends of the spectrum? That’s real, real bad.

      Either you have a ridiculously severe distrust of the stats or you are so enamored with his 2010-11 season that you can’t see that he is not that player anymore and is instead truly the worst PG in the league outside of maybe Emmanuel Mudiay, who was a rookie and also does not have a history of “minor” season-ending knee injuries.

    15. Donnie Walsh

      He’s already stated that one or two of Melo, KP, and Rose will be on court at all times.

      Man, Melo and KP are going to be tired.

    16. Z-man

      Either you have a ridiculously severe distrust of the stats or you are so enamored with his 2010-11 season that you can’t see that he is not that player anymore and is instead truly the worst PG in the league outside of maybe Emmanuel Mudiay, who was a rookie and also does not have a history of “minor” season-ending knee injuries.

      No, I actually really like stats. But yes, I can’t see that he is not that player any more just because you say he isn’t. I think he now is very close to that player physically (are you anly using last year’s stats to refute this or do you have actual evidence that he is not as fast or quick or doesn’t jump as high any more, or won’t in November when the season starts?) and he will realize that he has $100 million reasons to play well. And yes, I think that the Melo who played in 2012-13 is still alive and well and ready to repeat his numbers from that season, with less usage and more efficiency.

      But I agree that if you are right, if Rose is done or just plays horribly inefficiently, and if Melo is diminished, then it doesn’t matter that much what happens with the rest of the team, they will win in the 20’s or 30’s. I just don’t think you are right, or even close to being right, about these two guys.

    17. Ingmarrr

      Knicks are winning 70+ games because

      1. Hernangomez plays like a the mailman in his prime
      2. Baker plays like Mitch Richmond in his prime
      3. Mindaugas plays like Rick Barry

      Believe, you haters!

    18. Cock Jowles, Betting the Under in 2017

      You are ignoring the last 3500 recorded minutes of Derrick Rose. I’m not just making this shit up and I’m not looking at individual plays on YouTube. The stats are records of his play. His play has been utter shit. This is indisputable. Somehow, you think it is no predictor of future play. I have no idea how you come to this assessment given the data that we have.

    19. SJK

      Just to confirm, because you haven’t answered. You really think we would win more games if Derrick Rose blows out his knee again in training camp and we go into the season with Brandon Jennings as the ONLY point guard on our roster or, if we sign Baker and Randle, the only point guard who has played a single NBA minute?

      The same Brandon Jennings who put up a .491 TS% last year and is coming off an achilles tear? With no backup?

    20. latke

      @ SJK if you just go by the stats, it’s not a bold claim at all. Rose is worse than a replacement level player, which means the average D-League call-up or minimum salary player is better than him. Jennings has been slightly above replacement player and has a shorter injury history. Rose = Andy Rautins except with a guarantee of 30 MPG if he’s healthy.

    21. Cock Jowles, Betting the Under in 2017

      Yes. I think that there are players available that would be better than Derrick Rose. I think you could pluck some guys from the NBDL who could adequately run a pick-and-roll. You might actually get some competent defense out of them, too.

      Given his production for the last two season, Derrick Rose is not worth a roster slot even at rookie minimum. The only way to angle it is that he could be better this year. Otherwise, every minute he plays is another minute closer to a #1 lottery pick. He’s really that bad.

    22. Z-man

      You are ignoring the last 3500 recorded minutes of Derrick Rose… I have no idea how you come to this assessment given the data that we have.

      It’s not as much of an assessment as it is a characterization of a complex and conflicting set of data. You are not willing to look past his production since his knee injury. I see reasons not to trust the data (btw 3500 minutes amounts to the amount that LeBron played last season +playoffs…is it really that much?)

      As to what’s indisputable, it is indisputable that Rose was one of the best players in the entire league at full health. It is also indisputable that he has had 3 distinct injuries to his knees between his MVP year and the 2015-16 season; that he had an orbital fracture, a tweaked hamstring and a sprained ankle during the season last year; that none of his injuries are invariably unrecoverable; that he played 2097 minutes last year and averaged 31 mpg for 66 games; that he played better later in the season than earlier; that he played for a rookie coach in a dyspunctional setting; that he is a banished 27yo former MVP who at full health would hope to command a max salary and is in a contract year in the most visible market in the country.

      Why do you believe the data is so damning? Which of the following is it? (Or do you even care?)
      1) He is physically who he was last year and there is almost no chance that even with a prolonged off-season to work on his body, his body is broken beyond redemption.
      2) He was very good at peak athleticism, but has lost just enough that his game does not fit his body any more and he is either physically or mentally incapable of adjusting his game, e.g by shooting less and taking better shots, improving at shooting the 3, etc.
      3) He never was that good in the first place and his 1.5 years of .200+ WS/48 play was a fluky outlier.

      I like the human interest stories in sports. I like redemption and overcoming adversity. Sue me.

    23. massive

      I sure as hell believe he will be better (because I’m a Knicks fan). If he sucks and the Knicks end up cratering, though, that might be an excellent outcome for the face of the team. Maybe Melo trades himself to the Celtics and we get back their pick (and the right to swap theirs with Brooklyn), Jaylen Brown, and some filler because contracts. Maybe we can package Courtney Lee to a team like Cleveland and they give us their 1st round pick, Kay Felder, and filler. The only way this team sucks its way into oblivion is if Noah is out for the season, so we can’t trade him. I’d be pretty content to end the season with 2 of the top 5 picks in the 2017 draft, a late 1st round pick, Chicago’s 2017 2nd rounder, Jaylen Brown, and Kristaps Porzingis.

      I think the worst possible (and most likely) outcome is we’re the least trash of the non-playoff teams and miss out on both the playoffs and a high lottery pick, and all of the young assets we could have had if we pulled the trigger at mid season.

      My favorite scenario is the one where KP makes that Dirk level leap, Noah is healthy and picks up where he left off in 2014, and Derrick Rose has his best season by far since his first ACL tear in 2012.

    24. JK47

      He was bad last year, bad and hurt the year before that, bad and hurt the year before that, and hurt the year before that.

      Yet somehow this year he’s going to be neither bad nor hurt. Seems like a longshot to me, but hey, stranger things have happened I guess.

    25. Cock Jowles, Betting the Under in 2017

      Why do you believe the data is so damning? Which of the following is it? (Or do you even care?)

      1) He is physically who he was last year and there is almost no chance that even with a prolonged off-season to work on his body, his body is broken beyond redemption.
      2) He was very good at peak athleticism, but has lost just enough that his game does not fit his body any more and he is either physically or mentally incapable of adjusting his game, e.g by shooting less and taking better shots, improving at shooting the 3, etc.
      3) He never was that good in the first place and his 1.5 years of .200+ WS/48 play was a fluky outlier.

      Mostly #1 and #2, for which the evidence is so overwhelming that I find it hard to believe that any conscious person could objectively think differently, and #3 to a lesser extent.

      He was very good at playing an incredibly dangerous and risky form of basketball. It also required extreme athleticism to be effective. Remember, he was 22 during that season. Then he got hurt and — wouldn’t you know — his production dropped off the fuckin’ cliff. There is absolutely no way you disconnect the drop in efficiency from the injuries. The idea that he will age like wine is patently absurd.

      If we’re to take your narrative, he was a shit player in 2014-15 because of injury, but then he was more fit the following season, yet his shooting woes (and that shooting was godawfully woeful) could be primarily attributed to his orbital injury.

      So 2014 was one thing, and 2015 was another, and I’m assuming that 2016 will be something else. Fit? Synergy? Hornacek? Carmelo? The training staff? Whatever minor injuries he racks up that year? I know that pronosticators like you will never say, “Well, he must be bad.” There will always be an excuse for poor play that has something to do with the surrounding environment. This is because you start with the assumption that he’s objectively good and then explain otherwise from there.

    26. Cock Jowles, Betting the Under in 2017

      I caught up with the Zach Lowe podcasts yesterday, and he brought up the Bargnani trade for some reason. He talked about how when the trade happened, it was immediately a terrible trade. He then said that there was a subset of Knicks fans who were like, “Nah! He could be great! He has something to prove! He’ll be next to Carmelo! He’ll be a floor spacer!” but the underlying reality is that Bargnani was just plain old bad.

      He then said that Ujiri should have been banned from the league for a year, that trade was so lopsided immediately after it was confirmed.

      This shit is happening all over again, but with Derrick Rose. It will be no different from the Bargnani deal, as far as talent goes. Really no different at all. Bargnani was by far the league’s worst PF. Rose is currently arguably the league’s worst PG (due to that ridiculous USG% he continues to post and will continue to post in a contract year). This is happening again.

    27. massive

      I believe Derrick Rose will be better than he was the last two seasons. I have no statistical evidence to back those thoughts, but I do think dammit he’s a Knick now so that’s all I can hope for at this point.

      I do think I can count on a consistent and healthy Noah, Melo and Courtney Lee as positive contributors and for Kristaps Porzingis to take a good step forward into being the team’s 2nd best player (behind superstar Joakim Noah). I think we’ll rebound and defend our way to 45 wins. That’s all I got.

    28. d-mar

      I was trying to think of a stronger metaphor than “beaten to death” as in “the topic of Derrick Rose has been beaten to death” but I couldn’t come up with anything. Maybe “beaten to an unrecognizable hideous, bloody, gooey pulp”?

      Time to move on, guys.

    29. thenoblefacehumper

      I like the human interest stories in sports. I like redemption and overcoming adversity. Sue me.

      It’s hard for me to tell what you’re arguing. If you’re saying you merely hope Derrick Rose will be good because it’d be a good story and you’re a Knicks fan, cool. I’d argue that an unprecedented resurgence from him could turn out out to be disastrous for the franchise because max contract yadda yadda yadda, but I digress. That’s what massive is essentially saying, and I have no problem with that.

      But if you’re arguing that Derrick Rose being a) healthy and b) productive for the first time since 2011 is at all likely, I simply don’t know what to tell you. We all know the numbers by now. He has fuckin’ sucked. Even in the arbitrary divisions people here make to try and make him look better (post all-star break, post January 1st, post full-moon, etc.) he still sucks, just slightly less than the total sample size…which is still by far and away the most important piece of data (I find it funny that we can’t assume Derrick Rose’s knees might be problematic because we’re not orthopedic surgeons, yet the same people saying that claim to know the exact date Derrick Rose’s vision improved).

      That a player who hasn’t been good since 2010-2011 is highly unlikely to be good in 2016-2017 is so elementary that I doubt anyone has bothered to do any kind of study on the matter.

    30. lavor postell

      What we should be using would be the point at which he took off the mask, which was on December 10th against the Clippers.

      With the mask: 17 games, 35.9 FG%, 22.7 3P%, 40.9 TS%, 37.8 eFG%, 13.6 PPG, 33.3 MPG

      Without the mask: 49 games, 44.9 FG%, 32.1 3P%, 50.3 TS%, 47.1 eFG%, 17.3 PPG, 31.3 MPG

      So still not anything special, but significantly better and better than what we got from that spot last year in Calderon and Grant. If he can get that up to 52 TS% with 6 assists I’d be really happy with that for a season. That really hinges on whether or not he can draw fouls at a better rate.

    31. ptmilo

      I was trying to think of a stronger metaphor than “beaten to death” as in “the topic of Derrick Rose has been beaten to death” but I couldn’t come up with anything.

      Cronin’s last ounce of indefatigable optimism?
      Dred’s special place when Cole subs in?
      Reub’s signed copy of Dianetics?

    32. thenoblefacehumper

      44.9 FG%, 32.1 3P%, 50.3 TS%, 47.1 eFG%, 17.3 PPG, 31.3 MPG

      These are veteran’s minimum numbers (and not even good ones at that), not “trade two assets for this guy” numbers. If we wanted production that was almost guaranteed to meet these standards, we could’ve signed Ramon Sessions for 2 years/$12 million instead of trading for Derrick freakin’ Rose.

      Again, it’s hard to tell the difference between those merely hoping for the best (you can put me in this category), and those actually trying to argue trading anything of value for Derrick Rose was a half-decent idea. There is simply no case to be made for the latter. I might be alone in this, but I legitimately think the Rose trade ranks as one of the dumbest we’ve seen in a long time from the Knicks when you consider his production, his contract status, what we gave up, and the team’s trajectory.

    33. thenoblefacehumper

      Yeah those aren’t vet min numbers in a league where DJ Augustin gets 4/29m.

      Cherry picked Derrick Rose numbers: 44.9 FG%, 32.1 3P%, 50.3 TS%, 47.1 eFG%, 17.3 PPG, 31.3 MPG
      D.J. Augustin numbers: 42.3% FG%, 40% 3p%, .575 TS%, 52% eFG%, 14.3 PPG/36, 19 MPG

      Per 36, Augustin had more assists and fewer turnovers. I didn’t watch him a ton, admittedly, but it’s difficult to imagine his defense was as putrid as Rose’s.

      D.J. Augustin was way, way, way better than Derrick Rose last season. And he wasn’t even that good!

    34. chrisk06811

      How can the Rose trade be compared to the Bargnani trade? We gave up 2 1’s for Bargs. Even if you think Rose is worthless, he’s only got 1 year on his deal. So, we traded Lopez, Grant and the right to get rid of Calderon for Holliday and a 2. If you argue that Grant and Holliday are a wash, that leaves Lopez for the right to get rid of Calderon and a 2. Not, great, but not franchise changing!!!!

      You can argue the trade was not necessary, that it depends on an unhealthy dude getting healthy, that it took away other options. But I’m not sure how you can say it hurts us long term or it’s just horrible. The only real impact after this year is a whole lot less $$ on our books

    35. Theo

      Maybe Phil is really trying to secure a top-4 pick again, shooting for the playoffs with the corpses of Rose and Noah.

      The strategy netted us Porzingis.

    36. johnno

      @34 — you can include me in the “didn’t like the trade but hoping for the best” category. However, I do think that the “he’s the worst player in the league and wouldn’t deserve a roster spot at the league minimum” folks are just a little bit over the top. By the way, Fred Hoiberg should have been coach of the year for coaching a team with such a horrible ball hog of a player who also can’t shoot and plays putrid defense playing over 2,000 minutes to a winning record and for somehow squeezing 16 wins in 29 games out of a team with the worst shooting center in the history of the game playing major minutes.

    37. Cock Jowles, Betting the Under in 2017

      By the way, Fred Hoiberg should have been coach of the year for coaching a team with such a horrible ball hog of a player who also can’t shoot and plays putrid defense playing over 2,000 minutes to a winning record and for somehow squeezing 16 wins in 29 games out of a team with the worst shooting center in the history of the game playing major minutes.

      Is this sarcasm about how we’re all wrong about Derrick Rose being a black fucking hole on offense and at best “not good” on defense?

    38. DRed

      The Bulls would have probably made the playoffs if Hoiberg had been smart enough to not start a PG who had double vision because of his broken face.

    39. Cock Jowles, Betting the Under in 2017

      Yeah those aren’t vet min numbers in a league where DJ Augustin gets 4/29m.

      Dion Waiters got $2.9M. Derrick Rose was somehow worse than Dion Waiters. And I fucking hate Dion Waiters.

      If Derrick Rose should continue to be this bad, he should not be in the league for opportunity cost alone. But like Bargnani, Bennett, Olowokandi, Darko, and Kwame Brown (to lesser extent, he was not as bad as the others), his draft position will be a career buoy until he literally cannot jump anymore.

      Did you know that Olowokandi had 2.5 WS over the course of his career? And did you know he played over thirteen mother fucking thousand minutes? If ever there was a testament to the hubris of NBA coaching staffs, it’s that dude.

      Rose will never be as big a bust as the above players — Bennett is quickly becoming the worst #1 pick ever, with Bargnani having an unparalleled combination of suckage and minutes — but from here on out, I wouldn’t be surprised if he finds himself playing on 1-year deals for a few years in search of an elusive max. Dude’s got ego, and a $2.9M offer would not work for him.

    40. Theo

      All I know is that the Knicks would be a much better team with Lopez, Rondo, Jennings, Grant and Lee. A lot cheaper, too.

      But this is New York, where names, not production, matter the most. Dolan figured it out many years ago, so we can expect LeBron playing for the Knicks in 2021, when we’ll be in the middle of yet another rebuild and PJ will be remembered as one of the absolute worst GMs in Knicks’ history.

    41. Z-man

      This shit is happening all over again, but with Derrick Rose. It will be no different from the Bargnani deal, as far as talent goes. Really no different at all. Bargnani was by far the league’s worst PF. Rose is currently arguably the league’s worst PG (due to that ridiculous USG% he continues to post and will continue to post in a contract year). This is happening again.

      The difference is that when Bargnani was being discussed, there was no record of positive accomplishment to consider. We also had no one to hold accountable for the deal (still don’t.)

      Here, we have a player who won the MVP award and who is 27 years old. We have the most successful administrator in NBA history responsible for the deal. Not that I’m blindly appealing to authority, but I think Phil Jackson deserves at least as much latitude as the same armchair blowhards who, for example, thought drafting WCS over Porzingis was a no-brainer.

    42. Z-man

      Tommy Dee @ThomasCDee

      This won’t be RT’d for hot take sake, but I was told a month ago the #Knicks put Rose through rigourous tests at HSS-results blew them away.

    43. Theo

      We have the most successful administrator in NBA history responsible for the deal.

      You must be joking. This is, by far, the most deluded post ever. Ever.

    44. iserp

      There are three hinges for this season:

      1) Rose plays 2,500 minutes and sinks the team OR 500 minutes and thereby helps the team
      2) Porzingis turns into Dirk 2.0 OR just a serviceable starter.
      3) Noah plays 2,000 minutes and adds 10 wins OR injured in December and we’re seeing a starter plucked straight from the NBDL

      Everything else is basically set. Jennings, Carmelo and Lee are who are they are. No one’s about to become a superstar where they weren’t one.

      I would say (unscientifically) that Rose’s performance will be related to his health. That is, if he is able to play 2500 minutes without injuries/eye problems/etc., then he will play better than last season and good for the team (even if he does not crack 52%TS). OTOH, if he is injured, he will probably play 500-1500 minutes of sucktitude, that not only will hamper the team, but will destroy any kind of continuity the bench players could have had.

    45. johnno

      “Is this sarcasm”
      I have to admit, one has to get up pretty early in the morning to slip one by you. Yes, for anyone who didn’t recognize it, I was being sarcastic.
      “All I know is that the Knicks would be a much better team with Lopez, Rondo, Jennings, Grant and Lee”
      “Dion Waiters got $2.9M. ”
      I think that the only two moves that the Knicks could have made (aside from re-signing Bargnani) that would have gotten a more negative reaction here than trading for Rose would have been signing Rondo and Waiters.
      “Did you know that Olowokandi had 2.5 WS over the course of his career?”
      Good one. You have raised the bar. This might just be the most irrelevant strawman argument that you have ever made (and that is really saying something). I’ll admit that I don’t read every single post here every single day but, for the life of me, I can’t remember a single person advocating signing Olowokandi or in any way using Olowokandi as a reference point for anything.

    46. Cant Staps Wont Staps

      Good one. You have raised the bar. This might just be the most irrelevant strawman argument that you have ever made (and that is really saying something). I’ll admit that I don’t read every single post here every single day but, for the life of me, I can’t remember a single person advocating signing Olowokandi or in any way using Olowokandi as a reference point for anything.

      No, the best part was where, in comparing Rose to Bennet, Bargs, Olowokandi, etc. he said that Rose also coasts on his draft status, conveniently leaving out how Rose was voted the youngest MVP in the history of the NBA while the rest of those guys never did anything other than suck.

    47. Z-man

      A coach is an administrator, right? Phil has been the most successful coach in NBA history, right? So why is that a delusional statement?

      This is not to say that being an all-time great coach makes you an all-time great GM. But up until the Rose trade, Phil had made 4 highly impactful and at the time controversial moves as GM. By any fair GM hindsight standards, one was probably ill-advised in retrospect, one was debatable, one was very smart, and one was pure genius.

      -The Chandler trade: a rookie GM mistake, although most gave him passing marks in the moment (go back and read the posts the day the trade was made.)

      -The Melo contract: we’ll never agree on this one, but Melo’s current market value is at least in line with his contract.

      -The Porzingis draft: Most here didn’t like the pick, including some of the Rose trade haters. This was not just a home run, but a grand slam.

      -The Lopez deal: The same people crying about the Rose deal are the ones who keep harping on the fact that Lopes was signed to such a great long-term deal in terms of market value vs. the cap. Phil made that deal, didn’t he? Can’t have it both ways.

      -then there’s the little stuff: deals Phil didn‘t make: Monroe, Aldridge, Conley, etc. or the first round picks he didn’t trade like his predecessors did. And the dumping of THJ for a mid-first that astonished the KB world. The believing in Lance Thomas when posters here were labeling him one of the worst players in the NBA. The signing of DWill and Afflalo to 1+1 deals and having them work out perfectly, contract-wise.

      So based in my take of his record and his indisputable record of success as an administrator (which includes coaching) I will defer to him on the Rose trade and Noah signing until I see otherwise.

    48. lavor postell

      All I know is that the Knicks would be a much better team with Lopez, Rondo, Jennings, Grant and Lee. A lot cheaper, too.

      They’d also still have Calderon and would have used their remaining cap space so the team wouldn’t be cheaper.

      PJ will be remembered as one of the absolute worst GMs in Knicks’ history.

      Were you born in 2014?

    49. Silky Johnson, Phil Jackson Hater of the Year

      I know we all have traumatic experiences of last year’s Knicks backcourt, but really, Calderon wasn’t the huge problem everyone is making him out to be. He graded out as neutral on pretty much every advanced metric, made good shots (nowadays taking good, high efficiency shots in rhythm is considered “cherry picking” I guess), never turned the ball over, and was better on defense than Afflalo (who was the real problem and swiftly became one of my least favorite players in the NBA) and probably will be better on defense than D Rose. Our offense ran markedly better when he was on the floor.

      Still a terrible defender and mediocre player, but Derrick Rose won’t be an upgrade unless he becomes a better than league average player, which is what Calderon is these days.

    50. Theo

      A coach is an administrator, right? Phil has been the most successful coach in NBA history, right? So why is that a delusional statement?

      For the same reason that all dogs have legs, humans have legs, therefore humans are dogs.

    51. Silky Johnson, Phil Jackson Hater of the Year

      Just to clarify I mean to say that Calderon is a league average player not an above league average player.

      And using the word “administrator” to describe both coaching and GMing is, strictly speaking, a metaphor, and turns on an equivocation between two senses of the word “administrate”. There’s no good reason to assume that coaching knowledge translates to GMing knowledge. Sure, there’s Riley and Popovich to consider, but I think the more likely explanation is that GMing and coaching are two separate skills that Popovich and Riley are both pretty good at, not one skill that has two different facets. Distributing minutes, managing the locker room, and drawing up out of bounds and end of game plays isn’t that similar to negotiating with teams and players for contracts and trades, using statistical analysis and scout evaluations to determine who to acquire, and establishing a vision for the team’s future.

      They’re different endeavors, so there’s no decent reason to assume Phil has any special head start in that enterprise, especially when he’s repeatedly stuck his foot in his mouth with his comments re: the triangle, 3 point shooting, playing small, the PGs role in an offense, zen self-actualization, etc.

    52. Z-man

      Player evaluation is the same, whether you are a coach or a GM. A GM can be bad at making deals by overpaying, mismanagement of cap space, etc. and still be a good at evaluating talent/production and roster fit. Arguing that Phil overpaid for Melo’s services is different than arguing that Melo sucks. Same with Rose.

      And I don’t give a shit about Phil’s comments, only about his moves. I characterized those moves in @53: one mediocre, one debatable, one excellent and one genius. Thus far this off-season, he made 4 more big moves: Hiring Hornacek, Trading for Rose, signing Noah, and signing Courtney Lee. The rest are incremental moves. All I’m saying is no more illogical to be cautiously optimistic (as opposed to extremely confident, which I certainly am not!) than it is to be unflinchingly pessimistic. Unless, like Jowles, you are so cocksure that it would be stupid for you not to bet all you can on the under. Because that’s the way some of you come off.

    53. Z-man

      Coaches are part of administration and management, period. This is especially true for coaches like Phil.

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