Your 2041 Basketball HOF Inductee: Jericho Sims

Mike, I assume this means you will be giving everyone — or, at least, me — both video and pic-embedding powers going forward, yes?

Alan
August 8, 2021 at 9:04 pm
@MikeVorkunov
The NBA has added an extra Summer League game for the Knicks tomorrow. The Knicks will play the Pacers at 2pm ET/11am PT

This may be because the Pacers were scheduled to play the Wizards, but the game was postponed because the Wizards don’t have enough people to play due to health and safety protocols.

I watched Summer of Soul and it was the most amazing thing I’ve seen this year.

Joinone:
I watched Summer of Soul and it was the most amazing thing I’ve seen this year.

I’ll check it out. Thanks fir the recommendation

Do we want Vildoza on the team at this point? Since we signed him we’ve added Kemba, Deuce and Quentin. Fournier too.

Joinone:
I watched Summer of Soul and it was the most amazing thing I’ve seen this year.

Joinone:
I watched Summer of Soul and it was the most amazing thing I’ve seen this year.

I watched it Saturday. Liked the Sixties-ish politics material at the beginning, though it’s a widely-covered story; liked the footage of John Lindsay (*) the gospel stuff honestly kind of dragged but then Sly and the Family Stone did a version of Everyday People that was all manner of awesome, including the way they filmed it (**), and from then on it was fantastic.

(*) If you’re the type who likes to see big massive socio-cultural trends summed to their quintessence, you can’t do a whole lot better than the fact that John Lindsay was a Republican. The geographic, demographic, and political sorting that has gone on since the Summer of Soul is probably the biggest, most important trend in American life. Our current tribalism is not possible without it, though in part it comes from the same underlying source. People from different walks of life and socio-economic status used to be able to abide each other far better than they do now, which is a very disappointing development.

(**) Loved how when the first chorus started, they did a reverse angle of Sly soaking up his bandmates’ work. Was watching it on Hulu in my apartment and had to get a second listen.

Flambeeing the 19th pick was an absurd decision, particularly after seeing Grimes in action. Dictionary definition of meh.

All my dopey GenX friends who watched summer of soul all of a sudden became Don Cornelius.

Yeah Summer of Soul was amazing. That Sly footage and also the extended Stevie Wonder keyboard solo.

A good one-two watching is that and then the Woodstock 99 documentary. Or rather, maybe watch the Woodstock one first since its disturbing/kind of a downer. But I think they go well together even though one is largely uplifting and positive and the other is kind of horrifying.

Also, there is a really big biography book of Mayor Lindsey called “America’s Mayor.” Its a long one but I highly recommend it if you’re interested in 60’s politics and the history of NYC.

I’m definitely not anti-Grimes (although, with limited height/length, I think he’s purely a 3&D SG). But I don’t know why the Knicks couldn’t also take a flier on Johnson at 19, particularly because we have a gaping need for a jumbo-sized SF with Knox being so dreadful. I get that he had “red flags” but those seemed circumstantial.

I also get that having the 19th pick would’ve cut into our ability to sign Kemba, but we could easily trade Knox and/or Vildoza. I just don’t see how they didn’t recognize the upside there.

Ok, I will shut up about the 19th pick now because I do really like this team overall.

Just speaking of my own experience as a Chinese person who are interested in a lot of history stuff including American history, also likes movies/music/entertainment but without a deep knowledge, Summer of Soul seems to be a perfect introductory blend for me with its ratios of documentary and commentary to provide context. Similar to a well written Wikipedia page it leads to names, records and events to go into a deep slope if I feel like it, but with live Music instead of a text wall!

E, all merc’d out: People from different walks of life and socio-economic status used to be able to abide each other far better than they do now, which is a very disappointing development.

Just the fact that there was no interest in the “Black Woodstock” film back then, while we all got to see and appreciate this event now, seems to suggest otherwise. Or maybe like the film presented, the power of music is just that great.

Jalen Johnson’s issue is his character. That’s not likely to show up in a 1 game sample.

Also, there’s a lot of SL “stars” who turn into nothing during the regular season.

Oh merde! Whaddup here come dat Ntilikina!

Deeefense:
The Knicks need some help on defense at the guard/wing.

Going from Bullock (perhaps our best defender) to Fournier (who may not even be neutral) and from Payton (who could at least switch and do some good things on defense) to Kemba (who is probably a negative defenderat this age with his knees) is going to have a noticeable impact on the defense.That doesn’t even count Frank’s limited minutes taken away.

If they cut Vildoza (and they should) and/or trade Knox it should be to add an NBA ready defensive role player.That’s what they need.They may not get a Bullock caliber player, but they don’t need another young project at the end of the bench.They need someone that can come in and give them solid minutes on defense when our defense if getting shredded by some bad matchups and that can at least hit open 3s.

Kevin Knox dominated his first summer league. Just sayin!

First the Kemba news, then Julius extension, now it’s a Mike K post… we’re in for a treat this summer!
What’s next? A Farfa Summer League recap? 🙂

Owen: Once Mike K gets my edit function working again so I don’t have all these terrible typos he will start working on you Alan.

Owen, maybe you already done this, but have you tried an alternative browser? Meaning if you’re using Chrome, can you try another one (eg, Firefox)?

For a first game, and being lower picks, i think Grimes and McBride were ok-ish. Quick was bad, but it was a tall task, not only he has to adapt to the PG position, he has to adapt to the new rules (when he went to the referee i thought he was right, the defender jumped forward, and i hope that’s not on the new rules) and last, but not least, it’s not easy to be good at distributing if your teammates are launching brick after brick after brick… i’m hoping for better all around games to have a proper evaluation.
And let’s all remember that Summer League might get us excited or pessimist, and then when games matter (regular season) it’s another story… like Kevin “Summer League All Star” Knox! 😀

Obi’s defense seems to be getting better and better. He is also deceptively fast. Maybe he can get those minutes where we need a bigger three. I could also see Grimes displacing Quickley in the rotation at some point.

We aren’t going to kick overreacting to Summer League to the curb…

Cybersoze, I have the same issue on every browser and on every operating system. It’s quite strange but not a biggie. I just can’t navigate down past “adjust comment” status for some reason.

The best takeaway from yesterday’s game to me was Obi looking like a man amongst boys in the paint. I am of the opinion that while it’s in his best interests to develop a 3PT shot eventually, he’s a bit too focused on it right now at the possible expense of what should be his bread and butter: layups and dunks.

I’m not saying he should relegate himself to catching lobs because I think he’s got a more diverse offensive skillset than that even when it comes to points in the paint. I’d like to see him put the ball on the floor, post up mismatches, and get out in transition more this season.

Jalen also backed out of a commitment to IMG in HS. I don’t think these are devastating issues by any means, but they seem to have concerned some teams.

More concerning is his half court game because his shot is questionable as is his ability to drive past non-SL players.

cybersoze: sitting through that cluster fuck of a game yesterday

Apart from the appalling lack of competent PG play, there were some bright spots that made the game worth watching for me:

– Obi looked like he’s taken at least a few more steps toward being a useful rotation player/ trade piece.

– Grimes and McBride were exactly as advertised: high floor/ limited upside players who look to be eminently worthy of where they were selected and who may even be good enough to earn meaningful minutes sooner rather than later.

– Sims, of course, was a revelation. Not only did his play exceed my less-than-modest expectations, but it was exciting enough to coax Mike K. out of his self-imposed exile!

IQ’s play was a stone bummer and that kinda cast a pall over on the whole affair. But in an offseason in which the FO opted not to swing for the fences in the draft (booo!) it was at least reassuring to see that they did not whiff altogether. Grimes/McBride both appear to be solid singles and Sims may end up being something more.

yea the jalen johnson duke thing was the second occurrence of him flaking out… he has a pretty high opinion of himself and indications are that he doesn’t really do more than he needs to…. which is sort of a close analog for a guy he gets compared to often in ben simmons…

that might change since maybe all he ever wanted was to get drafted but that’s not something you want in a guy you’re investing a draft pick in because you could have all the talent in the world but if you’re just doing the bare minimum they will quickly go into the dustbin of lazy hoopers… at pick 20 there weren’t many guys this talented so you take him and ask questions later… but i wasn’t all gungho about taking him myself … at the same time questions of character are very hard to suss out especially as an outside observer with only public info to go off of so you just never know… he definitely showed something in the little time we saw him..

a guy like obi should do well in summer league… it’s fast paced helter skelter and he’s a fair bit older than almost everyone there… it’s not a great environment to judge him in unfortunately so even if he does well he’s basically a fifth year senior beating up on underclassmen…

it’s really really tough for a pg in summer league so i wouldn’t get too discouraged with IQ’s play.. i didn’t catch the game but being a good pg also depends on having good teammates who know what they’re doing and summer league rosters don’t lend itself well to that which is why most pg’s don’t look like pg’s in summer league… you’re just supposed to get some shots up in a quasi competitive setting…

that said… i am a bit pessimistic on IQ’s year but that has to do with how the foulbaiting will effect him… if he’s going to be anything beyond a bench long distance guy he’s going to need to improve his ability to get to and finish around the rim that go beyond relying on an inconsistent floater and getting a generous whistle…. i’m pretty pessimistic given his inability to do that for three straight years now and how a large part of his efficiency came from his ftr…. we’ll see but i think his ability to play pg is going to be directly tied to how well he shoots in 2p territory and i’m pessimistic on that front…

JK47:
I hope a long form version of “Summer Of Soul” gets released. I’m sure there are hours more of incredible footage.

Also Marilyn McCoo was all kinds of gorgeous. She’s in her 80’s now and still looks incredible.

Amen to that, she was a stone cold hottie

Also enjoyed David Ruffin doing “My Girl” solo

If the tampering allegations against the Bulls turn out to be true, then I’m not sure if there was much Rose & Co. could’ve done to bring him to NY.

Everyone tampers, so I don’t know that that is much of an excuse.

Brian Cronin: Everyone tampers, so I don’t know that that is much of an excuse.

Apparently “everyone” does not include the Knicks.

Apparently “everyone” does not include the Knicks.

I don’t know why you would say that. We have two cases of teams maybe getting caught, but to think that these are the only two teams doing it, I mean, come on, that’s highly unlikely. The league came up with such big deterrents because they know everyone is doing it.

Some decent looking lob passes from Quickley early

Of course we tamper, unless you think the Burks, Noel, Rose, and Fournier deals were all worked out in 15 minutes or so. The Bulls and Pelicans are in trouble because they announced a sign and trade so early after the moratorium, which I guess the NBA thinks strains credulity to an unacceptable degree.

It’s been reported tons of times that Lonzo had interest in coming here, it just seems like that wasn’t reciprocated on our end.

Rokas sighting!

Its not tampering when you resign your own players!

But obviously they were talking to Fournier before they were technically allowed to, correct? That’s tampering. Everyone does it. They didn’t lose out on Lonzo because the other teams were willing to tamper and they weren’t. If anything, they just didn’t seem interested in getting him.

Brian Cronin: But obviously they were talking to Fournier before they were technically allowed to, correct?

Are you sure?

Fournier wasn’t on board immediately. There may have been hints earlier but it sure looked to me like a number of teams were in the running for his service – including the Celtics.

i don’t think atlanta was really doing anything special against IQ… most defenses are going to deny the 3pt line and retreat back to the rim and give up whatever in between… the playoffs do generally give defenses more leeway so there were absolutely some no-calls on IQ that they would’ve given him in the reg season (while trae got every whistle imaginable for whatever reason)….

i think that’s a good proxy for what he’ll experience this season but that has more to do with how fouls are called in the playoffs than anything atlanta was doing schematically…

idk but Sims doesn’t look totally lost on offense. Sets decent picks, rolls to the rim well, and has shown good footwork/moves in the post. If Robinson/Noel go down with an injury, he wouldn’t be terrible to bring off the bench. Much better than Pelle at least, that’s for sure.

Brian Cronin: The problem with Quickley is that their defensive scheme on him was just so logical that it’s hard not to see it being a problem.

I agree, Brian, i’m just hopeful he can get over it and maybe in the Atlanta series, as the whole house was on fire, he couldn’t do it.

dang TNFH, you must have one heck of a sports package (espn 3) to be viewing the game…

Obi just seems to process the game a tick too slowly to really be successful. It feels like he’s always taking a second to decide what to do instead of letting his instincts and physical gifts take over.

Much better game from Quickley today including some decent looking drives.

Are you sure?

Fournier wasn’t on board immediately. There may have been hints earlier but it sure looked to me like a number of teams were in the running for his service – including the Celtics.

As thenoblefacehumper noted, the contract details were announced for Fournier ($18 million a year over three years) hours before free agency technically began, at which point the Knicks were “allowed” to talk to Fournier (the extra fourth year team option is likely why there was a delay in announcing it). So, I mean, come on, right? They were obviously talking to him. No one was pretending otherwise. The “ban” on tampering is a joke.

one of these days obi’s gonna accidentally dribble over someone’s head

McBride is a baller

you rock noble!!!

Joku looks like he’s 12

we’re about to get a get a u break it u bought it text from barcelona

McBride is a baller

I’m digging McBride, yeah.

Obi with another drie to nowhere…got bailed out.

duane washington jr looks good and so does duarte

Obi airball and then gets cooked by Duane Washington.

It’s not what you want.

Sims is gonna be a foul machine for a while at least

Simms is a thug!

Washington looking like a good UDFA pickup, or maybe he’s just hot…

IQ picking up the phantom foul head snap from Trae…

I have no idea why Wayne Selden is on this team but without looking I am going to assume he is repped by CAA.

Quickley escaping some tight Duarte coverage with a floater. Probably his last game in summer league, not a lot more to prove here.

Obi…yikes.

I really like McBride. His D looks for real.

I was initially thinking deuce needs to add some size, but, maybe being really fast is better for him…

Now Obi goes coast in a good way, sort of…

I see a bit of the Marcus Smart comparison with McBride. Tough kid.

McBride is a keeper.

Grimes’ shot hasn’t come around yet but I’ve liked his passing, defense and rebounding. He’s played very within himself these past two games and he posted the highest +/- on the team I think. Again, worrisome shooting, but solid d, 6 rebounds and 4 assists is a nice game despite the scoring woes

thenoblefacehumper:
It’s early but Grimes and McBride sure look destined to continue the tradition of having our 2nd round picks outperform our 1st round picks

lol true. Still don’t get how he was there at #36

McBride is going to be the player Frank stans wish Frank was.

Also for all the criticism of not being able to play PG thru 2 games IQ has 16 asts and only 4 turnovers.

ptmilo:
Also for all the criticism of not being able to play PG thru 2 games IQ has 16 asts and only 4 turnovers.

critique was pure treason

Ha I was certainly critical of his game yesterday cause he looked awful but the stats paint a slightly different picture. Although his shooting has been poor but that’s the last thing I’m worried about with IQ.

I liked when Thibs went over to IQ and said something to him after the game. IQ seemed to laugh.

DudeInKnicksTown:
Repeated from yesterday.
Comps:
McBride: Marcus Smart
Grimes: Courtney Lee
Sims: Dwight Howard
Vildoza: Austin Rivers

We need to cut Vildoza and upgrade at the wing. We should look for someone with defensive chops, who can shoot the three at a .47% clip, has an Olympic silver Medal and can speak French.

We need to cut Vildoza and upgrade at the wing. We should look for someone with defensive chops, who can shoot the three at a .47% clip, has an Olympic silver Medal and can speak French.

Realistically Evan Fournier’s .463 3PT% with the Celtics was probably a bit of a mirage and he’ll settle into 38-40% territory, and I think you’re giving him a bit too much credit on defense, but alas, don’t worry, we have him already!

I like Grimes’ IQ and the stroke looks good but he can’t get any separation off of the dribble and he had a couple of embarrassing attempts in transition. The 3 ball is going to need to be 40%+ if he’s going make the rotation in the future.
McBride actually ran the point okay for a bit in the second half- hope to see more of that in the remaining games. With Kemba and Rose likely to miss time for rest if not injury both IQ and McBride will probably see minutes there so I’d give them the reigns for the rest of summer league.
Vildoza has been invisible so far and Rokas coughed the ball up any time he was touched so I can’t imagine them being rotation guys this year.

Can Grimes dunk?

Trey Murphy III looking good

I see a bit of Landry Fields in Grimes

too funny, i got the same vibe during the game…not overly athletic, but fundamentally solid with good game IQ…

Vildoza: Austin Rivers

spot on, without the – i need guaranteed court time thing…a 3rd string kind of guy that can play good situational minutes…

mcbride continues to interest me…he looks really small out there, not harper small, but small…marcus smart: 6’3″ 220 lbs…mcbride: 6’2″ 200 lbs, and he’s gonna get bigger…i think i saw him get to the rim at least once…he can throw some long passes really accurately – oh wait, deuce was the high school quarterback guy…ah…

yeah, quik is also a really interesting player – it’s kind of weird that he is a thibs kind of guy already, his game is still really wild and all over the place – he ain’t scared though, that’s for sure…i really wanna believe him when he says he’s a point guard…

it’s kind of weird that he is a thibs kind of guy already, his game is still really wild and all over the place

I think desperation — the team’s brutal point guard play pre-DRose trade, plus our generally inept offense — inspired Thibs to give IQ minutes he otherwise would not have for a rookie with his game. And IQ came up big in enough spots that he just stayed in the rotation, more or less, and thus was welcomed into the circle of trust. Whereas Grimes has a game that seems friendlier to the sterotypical conception of Thibs(*), yet he’s unlikely to play much barring injury.

(*) I also think the stereotypes are overblown in some ways, particularly in regards to offensive scheme. Our caveman offense from last season was attributable to the microscopic preseason and the general crumminess of Poochie/Elf, but his Minnesota teams had pretty good and modern offenses, and pretty much every Thibs quote this offseason has been focused on that end of the ball. I don’t expect us to turn into Splash Brothers East or anything, but I wouldn’t be surprised if we’re more middle of the pack — or, at least, much more watchable — on that end, given both the talent upgrades and more time to actually install the offense.

Z-man:
Has anyone else noticed that the rims in Vegas seem very soft? Seems like lots of bricks are rattling in…

That’s always the case in Vegas I think because those are college gyms and they use much softer rims.

Luka Doncic signs a 5 year, $207 million extension. Per Woj, “Doncic, one of the most accomplished players in NBA history at 22 years old and rapidly evolving into the future face of the league, becomes the first player eligible for the designated rookie max extension upon signing because he’s already twice been voted first-team All-NBA.”

Re: Obi – within the span of one game, I probably went back and forth 10 times between “this guy really sucks” to “well maybe he can be a productive NBA player”

Overall I’m not very optimistic tho

Having Kemba Walker for two seasons would be huge because then we get Early Bird Rights, no? Also, if he has a great season we don’t need to worry about having his salary increase 300%

Yep, getting him for a guaranteed two years would be huge.

Also, oddly enough a tweet came across my timeline where Julius Randle and KAT are confessing their love for each other publicly. Obviously all the good things are off the table (RJ Barrett), but could anybody see Minnesota taking a package around Obi Toppin, Quentin Grimes, Immanuel Quickley, the CHA 2022, DAL 2023, some 2RPs, and maybe the NYK 2022 1RP for KAT? That’s essentially 6 1st round picks to put around Anthony Edwards and a recommitment to tanking for the next two seasons.

I can’t see it happening without RJ, but I feel like we’re going to hear a lot of guys talk about how much they love Julius Randle and New York City a lot more in the next calendar year. KAT and Julius are an interesting pair because they can both play inside out and they were Kentucky’s star recruit in back to back years. Not sure what happens to the defense but hey.

Dwayne Bacon is a Knick now. I do not like that.

We signed Dwayne Bacon for some reason

Bye, bye Luca?

Does team option for year 2 = guaranteed?

Yes.

Considering that Dwayne Bacon can’t play basketball I’d say I’m puzzled by the decision to cut Vildoza (which is what I assume is happening?)

Still, pretty much a nonevent. Neither player was going to get much if any time. Another somewhat silly move on the margins by the FO though.

Yeah, I both don’t like the move and don’t care about the move one way or the other.

not sure who wayne selden is signed with, but, yeah dwayne bacon is a caa guy…

i don’t know, if that’s the kind of shit that needs to happen in the background in order to get guys like kemba to wanna sign here, and get guys like julius to wanna take a team friendly extension – whatevas…

it ain’t no ron baker kind of deal, so, keep it moving i guess…

hey BC, that’s not you in the pic is it?

not that there is anything wrong with the face in the pic, just wondering…

Guys, it’s what KFNINJ said.

In HoopsRumors.com:
Although NBA teams are limited to 15 players (plus a pair of two-way players) during the regular season, each club can carry up to 20 players during the offseason. Teams don’t have to cut down their rosters from 20 until the day before the regular season. Players on two-way contracts count toward the 20-man offseason limit.

Bacon is the Michael Kidd-Gilchrist of 2021. He’ll come to training camp and he’ll get cut. Simple as that.

Knick fan not in NJ:
I don’t know who Dwayne Bacon is, but I’m not sure signing him means we have cut someone. Remember, teams are allowed larger rosters for training camp than the regular season and we always take advantage of that.

Good point, I forgot about the larger roster limit during training camp. Thanks for this, signing is a big nothingburger so long as he doesn’t make it to the regular season.

Was there an injury that I missed? Because Bacon has no role on this team..maybe other than keeping guys hungry *ba-dum-tss*. This has got to be CAA helping a client out. I don’t even want him on the team over Pinson

hey BC, that’s not you in the pic is it?

not that there is anything wrong with the face in the pic, just wondering…

I’m working on something else that automatically showed my gravatar avatar for every post (the We3 dog I’ve been using here for years) and it just looked out of place to have the We3 dog show up on this other thing, so I just figured I’d use my Twitter avatar instead, which is a photo of me.

how long you been writing professionally bc – how in the world are you so prolific – do you just keep like a journal, work on multiple projects at the same time, have a long list of topics you want to cover?

is it stressful being a writer?

He has synergy with Kemba, or at least he used to.

Bacon is cooked way beyond crispy

I looked at Bacon’s B-R page and he’s one of those rare players who isn’t particularly good at like anything….

Not being particularly good at anything is a skill in and of itself.

***Dwayne Bacon can’t play basketball***

Well, apparently Dwayne Bacon CAN play basketball, but only with Kemba Walker. Kind of like how Jack Haley could only play with Dennis Rodman, I guess.

(Speaking of Jack Haley, Jack Haley played on the 1991-92 Lakers with Vlade Divac. Vlade Divac played on the 2003-04 Sac Kings with Gerald Wallace. Gerald Wallace played on the 2010-11 Blazers with Nicolas Batum. Nic Batum played on the 2018-19 Hornets with Dwayne Bacon.)

i imagine it’s like anything – seems super cool, but, once it’s your job, well, it’s your job…

finally figured out why i couldn’t connect the pic to you – the pic looks way too professional for a dude comfortable with engaging in discussions about whether batgirl could ever really have a shot at kicking supergirl’s ass…

now i’m thinking of some of my favorite comic book shops over the years…the comic bookie in claremont (great back issue collection), this tiny little shop in pacific grove – at the time i remember thinking how cool it would be to own a shop like that (i had no idea how that business really worked)…i remember going to this shop in pittsburgh that was close by a bridge, old building, but the shop was one of those two story places…it had so much stuff in it…

any favorite shops over the years bc?

Speaking of comics watched The Suicide Squad last night, what a very weird movie. It was entertaining at least.

Donnie Walsh:
***Dwayne Bacon can’t play basketball***

Well, apparently Dwayne Bacon CAN play basketball, but only with Kemba Walker. Kind of like how Jack Haley could only play with Dennis Rodman, I guess.

(Speaking of Jack Haley, Jack Haley played on the 1991-92 Lakers with Vlade Divac. Vlade Divac played on the 2003-04 Sac Kings with Gerald Wallace. Gerald Wallace played on the 2010-11 Blazers with Nicolas Batum. Nic Batum played on the 2018-19 Hornets with Dwayne Bacon.)

So that means Dwayne Bacon played with Batum, who played with Gerald Wallace, who played with KG, who was in “Uncut Gems” with Adam Sandler, who was in “Murder Mystery” with Jennifer Anniston, who was in “Picture Perfect” with Kevin Bacon.

That’s absurd. Supergirl has powers like Superman. Batgirl is a police commissioner’s daughter.

well DS, you do know squirrel girl did in fact kick thanos’ ass at one point…plus, batgirl has got good gear – good gear can carry you a long way in a superfight…

geo: cool cartoon dog pic = cool comic guy…

I miss Brian’s dog pic too

Brian Cronin: the comic book is obviously against what the military is doing and the dog is a big hero.

Which one is it? Sounds interesting.

Which one is it? Sounds interesting.

We3. It’s really great. I’m shocked it hasn’t been adapted into a movie yet.

Brian Cronin: We3. It’s really great. I’m shocked it hasn’t been adapted into a movie yet.

Grant Morrison wrote a lot of great thing but I missed that one, thanks Brian!

So cool Geo’s doubt turned the topic to comics, instead of bacon. Going to check out We3, thanks for the tip, Brian.

About Bacon, if we’re going that way, might as well Perry try to go get a player named Dwight Eggs (or something like that, don’t google it, i just came up with this fake name :P)… for us to have the hilarious pairing of Bacon & Eggs. 😀

Alan: Or just get Jon Hamm season tickets at MSG along celebrity row?

LOL. That’s easier. 😉 For the Hamm & Bacon photos. 😀

Are we getting a poll for Brian’s avatar or what?

Not trying to oversell it, but I think folks are sleeping on Sims. Watching him, I don’t think he fell because of age and stats. He really does look like he’s cut from the same cloth as Dwight Howard, and like Howard- the modern game really doesn’t make room for a player like that. Big, strong, and athletic with a throwback game. He knows his lane and seems to be a patient, heady kid out there. Quickley seems to unlock him a little bit too. We may end up converting his contract sooner than later as our 3rd big. I don’t think he’s gonna go quietly to the G League. He’s in a good situation with Taj on the roster and watching Mitch and Noel play.

McBride is a gamer. Grimes hasn’t found his rhythm yet, but McBride looks like a natural out there. Quickley may have played his last SL game so Vildoza can get some work- or at least play minimalminutes the rest of the way. Obi may play one last game so that he can get used to being aggressive out there in his minutes. I’m ready for preseason lol

There was a debate on P&T the other day about the current market for bigs in the draft and the idea that there might be real value in guys like Sims who fall in the draft. Basically everyone is trying to emulate the Warriors now with a small ball line up and a dude like Draymond or they want to find the next Jokic, so they look for offensive skill in 5’s or dudes who can stretch the floor. So there could be real steals with traditional bigs who can play really good defense, rebound, rim rum but don’t have much else going on offense.

I think there is some truth to this. You see how Capella got traded by The Rockets for nothing but then Atlanta has found him super useful. IT does mean you need shooting from the other 4 positions and probably a good point guard who can run pick and roll and lob to the 5, but I think dudes like Sims are now undervalued and are there for the taking.

Its maybe why we should look to trade Mitch while he is so cheap and still has potential.

Dwayne Bacon

We need a Bullock replacement.

There have to be a few players out there there at the wing position that can defend and hit 3s even if they aren’t Bullock quality. Why are we wasting time with this guy unless it’s some kind of favor to someone?

swiftandabundant:
DS, OBi’s minutes last year were deflated bc he was so bad to start the season. HE had a lot of games early on where he played like 5 minutes total in the game. If he plays like this and how he did in the last stretch of the season and playoffs, he absolutely will get more minutes and it could be really good for this team. LOVE RANDLE and maybe we ultimately do trade Obi, but we should be in no rush. Let Obi get more burn, let Randle get more rest so he isn’t as worn down. I don’t think that is the main reason he floundered against Atlanta, but Randle wasn’t quiet as good the second half of the season as he was the first and he led the league in minutes. If we can get Randle’s minutes down and Obi’s up and find a few minutes each game where they share the floor, it could really pay off later.

And I just hope hope hope Thibs sees this. I don’t think this is the best team Thibs has ever coached. Nowhere near as good as the ECF Bulls with MVP Rose. But I do think this is maybe the deepest team he has coached and I hope Rose, etc…are in his ear about that and telling him to lean on that bench this season. We legit can go 10 deep plus Taj and the rookies.

I don’t disagree with any of your points except that ultimately they can’t share the floor, thus Thibs is unlikely to ever give Obi more than 20 mpg, and thus it’s a disappointment for a #8 pick… I think it’s pretty obvious that if anyone could have predicted what Randle did last season, they wouldn’t have picked Obi.

I’m really confused by How shitty Obi jumps in the paint despite being a Dunk Contest high flyer…
Need to see more explosion and Strength from him to feel he’s an asset.

swiftandabundant:
DS…I mean we have Obi on a rookie contract for at least 3 more seasons. I agree its a disappointment right now but even saying that points to the current mindset of so many people. The idea that we have to get full value out of Obi right away or he has to fully succeed right away or else the pick was a waste.

No one saw Randle doing what he did. And yeah, he just signed a 4 year extension, so he’s most likely here for awhile. But that doesn’t mean Obi can’t back him up for 15 to 20 a game and shine during that time. And RAndle’s extension, especially if he plays at an all-nba level, makes his new contract VERY movable. Not that I want Randle to be traded but who knows. In a year or two, maybe Randle is part of a trade for Zion or Luca and Obi takes over as teh starting PF?

Or maybe Obi kicks butt as the back up and becomes a super valuable trade chip in his own right. We have him for a bit, so to me there is no need to rush anything. Sure, we probably should have taken Hali but that doesn’t mean Obi can’t still be useful to us. HAving a good back up PF on a rookie contract…there are worse problems to have.

OK; maybe similar to the way Omer Asik was stuck at the end of Thibs’s bench but Houston (Morey?) offered him a big contract to acquire him anyway.

I saw a proposed trade that was Mitch, Knox and 2 future second rounders for Miles Turner. Would people do this?

Giving up Mitch would suck but Turner is the better offensive player and isn’t that old. I think he’s 25? His defense is still pretty good too. Also, frees up one more roster spot for someone else. We got all those future seconds we’ve acquired. I would be into it.

bye bye, dickhead

thenamestam,

well yeah, that’s why the proposed trade would be him, knox and a couple of second rounders. Sure, Mitch’s value might be low now but he is still an intriguing prospect. If he stays healthy, he could probably resign with Indiana on a decent deal for them.

swiftandabundant:
thenamestam,

well yeah, that’s why the proposed trade would be him, knox and a couple of second rounders. Sure, Mitch’s value might be low now but he is still an intriguing prospect. If he stays healthy, he could probably resign with Indiana on a decent deal for them.

Didn’t intend my comment as a direct response to yours, more just a general thought.

But in that specific trade my questions would be more first, can we still generate enough space to do a deal like that? I’m far from a cap expert but the salaries aren’t matching at all and I’m not sure we can actually structure our other moves to have enough space to take Turner, maybe I’m wrong about that. Second, I don’t think a C is at all what Indy is looking for in dealing Turner. The whole reason he’s been in rumors for the last 18 months is the (lack of) fit with Sabonis and dealing him primarily for another C who would be an even worse fit with him does not strike me as at all what they’re hoping to do. I think both those are bigger issues with that specific deal than Mitch’s value in a vacuum.

Stam is correct, that trade does not come close to working salary wise. Also, if you assume Mitch on his own doesn’t have a ton of value, Knox and two seconds is not going to alter that calculation much, if at all.

More generally, I like Turner a lot but if we were to acquire him we’d have $30M AAV tied up in the center position between him and Noel and still wouldn’t have an elite center to show for it. It’s pretty hard for me to believe we could put together a highly successful team while doing that.

at least we’re not Dennis Schroder today

that’s tuff

***Or maybe we could get CP3 to join our team. I can just hear Clyde say: Chris P. (to) Bacon***

Why stop there? Buy OJ Mayo out of his Chinese league contract and roll out a backcourt of Chris P, Bacon, and Mayo.

ptmilo: unfortunately looks like we didn’t get the 4th yr option on mcbride

Clearly another move taking into account the 2023 cap space.

Valuing Mitch requires some strange math. Mitch averaged 3.6 offensive boards per game last year (Rudy Gobert had 3.4, Enes Kanter had 3.9). His presence in the paint causes a driver to stop and turn back. I don’t think there is a stat called “turnbacks”. He is a game-changing player, but without proof of an evolving offensive repertoire Mitch gets lumped in with Noel and unfavorably compared with Turner. He will have an opportunity to play with better point guards this season which should elevate his regular offensive game. The big question is if he will be allowed to put the ball on the floor, try a 10 foot jumper or employ different post moves this season.

cybersoze: cybersoze
August 10, 2021 at 2:28 pm
ptmilo: unfortunately looks like we didn’t get the 4th yr option on mcbride

Clearly another move taking into account the 2023 cap space.

  

At least we have some bird rights if we want them…so what does that mean for the rest of the contracts…Kemba? Vildoza?

I guess Knox is still in the plans…

Capela, DeAndre Jordan and Tyson Chandler all average under 10 points a game for their playoff careers. Capela’s value in the playoffs has been defense and rebounding- rim runs disappear in the playoffs. Who was the last champion that had a one dimensional rim-running big as big part of their offense?

i think looking at champions is a bit restrictive… we def do not have championship aspirations… and we have no idea what configuration we’ll settle into it if we get there at all… but the rim running center can be used in the playoffs but just like any limited player they will have a more limited impact against playoff defenses…

but you can make deep playoff runs with them which is all we’re sort of looking for… and for the foreseeable future we need someone who can matchup credibly against the embiid’s and giannis’ of the world if we want to get deep in the playoffs… that may or may not be mitch but from my eye in past games that he’s matched up with either he does a decent job… and when he gets into his prime we’ll see if he can do an even better one…

maybe I’m just impatient but it seems a little odd that we haven’t announced much of anything (is Fournier even official yet)? I wonder whether there are more machinations going on behind the scenes (ie. turning some things into S&T of some such thing).

I think it’s all about ordering the signings, while debating whether to cut Vildoza and maybe try to use his money to sign one more dude (if they did that, they would have to do it before signing Rose, as they’ll go over the cap with Rose).

i seen nothing you fascist pig assholes

wow, just finished We3, that’s some dark and serious stuff…

never really got in to much comics outside of more “mainstream” (DC, Image, Marvel, Dark Horse)…i enjoy The Boys, the Walking Dead and Preacher now, but, never really got in to the comics as far as reading them…

dang, that the crazy We3 story was pretty jolting in some parts…i can’t remeber the name of it now, but, a little similar to some other government/military story i also read online not so long ago…yeah, that’s a story and some visuals that’ll stick with me for a while…

dang bc, don’t you like happy stuff like the hulk eating half a dozen or so people in new york 🙂

shit, spawn was cheerier than that…

Speaking of comics watched The Suicide Squad last night, what a very weird movie. It was entertaining at least.

I think it was James Gunn’s best work. I loved his take on the material. In every SS story the main villain is and will always been Amanda Waller + The US government. Its not the monsters or even the reprobate criminals on the squad.

thenoblefacehumper: Is there anyone who thinks that would’ve been a worse way to spend less money?

Weakly raises hand.

Partly I’m not sold on Lonzo. Could be wrong. But Burks solves a huge problem (lights-out shooting in a variety of ways — and he’s definitely better at 3% and ft% than Ball), Ball is a better passer by far but Burks can play the point, and frankly (sic) we have a pretty large stable of point guards right now, admittedly all with various question marks. But one thing we need is lights-out shooters. And Noel is the perfect antidote for any number of problems — if Mitch isn’t ready at season’s start, if Mich goes down again, and if Mitch is just fine then the two-headed dragon gives us 48 minutes of utterly insane rim protection. I think that’s worth a hell of a lot.

Weakly puts down hand.

Z-man: At least we have some bird rights if we want them…so what does that mean for the rest of the contracts…Kemba? Vildoza?
I guess Knox is still in the plans…

As i keep saying, i don’t think the money works. And now that you’ve wrote Vildoza and Knox in a row, i think that’s it, they wanted Knox on the summer league because they’re pondering which salary to dump, Knox or Vildoza. Of course, Vildoza is easier because it’s a non guaranteed, but probably some rebuilding team would take Knox gladly to check him out for a year.

damn cooper a three at the buzzer. 48 come on.

Cooper hits a buzzer beating 3 for the win! Man I love summer league.

Donnie Walsh:
Quick question: if I don’t like Ted Lasso, am I dead inside?

No, just means you haven’t had your heart and your soul sand-blasted as much as others have these last four and a half years. Bully on you.

Donnie Walsh:
Quick question: if I don’t like Ted Lasso, am I dead inside?

It just means you’re a wanker. 🙂

Have you watched all of Season 1 Donnie?

I agree with Raven’s comment as well. I needed Ted in my life.

Donnie, there’s nothing wrong with hating a popular television show, especially when you invested good time on those seven-and-a-half minutes of a mid season episode that your subconscious sorta absorbed while you focused all of your attention on something else. Don’t let anyone shame you for your tastes.

Lonzo is an interesting case. He turns 24 right around the start of the season, and he hasn’t come anywhere close to being a $20 million AAV player yet. His peak TS% is .551, and while the trajectory is up, it’s legit to ask where it will top out. Is the improved FT% real? Hard to know because he hardly ever gets to the line. He’s a very good passer, but he also had a full season of ultra-creators like Ingram and Zion to pass to and the per36 AST numbers and AST% went nowhere. Is it because he can’t shake loose and get into the paint for lobs? Are his assists mainly on dump-ins and in transition?

And then there’s his dad and the potential for drama if Thibs starts riding Lonzo to hard (in his Dad’s mind.) Maybe that’s overblown, but it is part of the negative pile.

I get that he’s a shiny young piece and all, but giving him a TH2 deal with a player option is a big investment. Two things you know: Burks and Noel will probably give commensurate value for the next two years, with zero drama, and if either gets hurt or regresses they are expiring contracts. If Lonzo stays at or near his current numbers, or if Lavar raises hell, maybe he’s not that easy to dump.

And that’s the problem with a quasi-win-now team with Thibs as its coach. Thibs likes continuity to a fault and since he and Leon already committed to Rose as the “finisher” (who cares who starts?) then paying Lonzo to essentially be Rose’s backup for the next 2 years is not enough of a sure thing to upset the apple cart. I’m kind of okay with it mainly because it’s in line with my expectations for this regime, and of course there’s Kemba and possibly McBride to look forward to. But I would have been happy if they decided to go with Lonzo.

Also, I don’t know whether Noel or Burks are truly worth the money, but I am happy to be rooting for them again, especially Nerlens. I certainly don’t view him as Mitch insurance…he’s better than that

This has probably been the most entertaining summer league game of all time. I am very jealous of the Rockets’ draft.

Green and Sengun might be the two most impressive rookies in summer league so far and they’re on the same team

thenoblefacehumper:
Green and Sengun might be the two most impressive rookies in summer league so far and they’re on the same team

After I read that Kevin Pelton had him number one in the whole draft, I really wanted Sengun.

***Have you watched all of Season 1 Donnie?***

Haha, no, no I have not.

But I have watched the first two episodes. The first one back when it came out, and the second one today to “give it another chance”. Some people I know have watched season one multiple times and say it’s the best show they’ve ever seen. I want to feel it, but I don’t. The premise just feels so weak, and the writing lacks, I don’t know… sophistication? (Maybe that’s the charm of it?) (That’s why I wanted to take my pulse here at the KB off-season TV hive…)

I’ve seen Ted Lasso and liked it well enough. I’m a Premier League fan so I enjoyed seeing a sitcom in that setting. It’s nice to watch beautiful people be kind to each other.

At the same time, the show didn’t leave a strong impression on me. It’s comfort food that leans on emotional wish fulfillment like Schitt’s Creek or late period Parks & Rec. Everyone grows, everyone learns, conflicts get resolved without too much difficulty, and everyone gets their happy ending or their neat redemption arc.

I watched S1 with my housemates, one of whom is a very wholesome and sweet guy, a real nurturing personality. We had fun pointing out all the ways Ted is similar to him. But my housemate gets on my nerves sometimes because he’s always trying to cheer people up. Sometimes you want someone to sit by you in silent solidarity when you’re dealing with bad shit instead of trying to fix your mood. You’re dealing with complex issues and don’t want it all to be wrapped up in a bow.

Also, “white guy with can-do attitude fixes everything” is hard for me to identify with in general.

I have long gotten off the Summer League Hype train. It’s always fun to watch and this year it is particularly compelling, but ultimately it doesn’t tell you much.

The best part is that there isn’t the historical 3-month dead zone between the end of summer league and the start of the regular season, which was a killer back in the day. Training camp opens on Sept 28, barely a month after Vegas ends!

If you have Apple TV+ and are not watching For All Mankind, you are missing out. What an amazing show, especially in its second season.

Schmiggadon on Apple TV is also really funny especially if you love (or hate) musicals.

Apple TV is kiling it with their programming. I love that they’re purposefully not releasing a ton of stuff but going for higher quality. Physical is good too.

thenoblefacehumper: Turns out the original figure reported included unlikely incentives. This could help answer some of our questions, as the difference between his actual salary and the reported figure could be the cap space we used to sign McBride.

So it’s essentially a 2-year $9M AAV deal…not much different but still sounds better. Seems like they have a pretty good handle on capology at least.

If you have Apple TV+ and are not watching For All Mankind, you are missing out. What an amazing show, especially in its second season.

As the kids say… this. FAM season 2 is my favorite thing I’ve watched in quite a while.

It’s got no big stars and the premise requires slightly more explanation than some others. Plus, it’s one of those where you need to get about halfway into the first season until it really figures itself out. Which is pretty standard in TV, but sometimes harder to indulge when there are so many choices out there.

We allowed the Hawks to end up with Johnson and Cooper. Why?

***it’s one of those where you need to get about halfway into the first season until it really figures itself out.***

Uh oh, that’s probably a half a season too long for me. But I just looked it up and see it’s got the guy from The Killing in it, which Lady Walsh is a big fan of, so SHE will likely watch it (per my imminent suggestion), and I will likely not watch it (but I will still review it, just so Jowles has something to comment on here during the lull between free agency and opening day…)

Yeah, this is all incrementally encouraging. In Brock We Trust, I guess.

I am now excited For All Mankind.

Count me as someone who doesn’t get the Lasso love.

It’s schmaltz… maybe slightly better than average schmaltz but also not particularly funny. And I have a problem with Sudekis always positioning himself as Mr. Modern Good Guy in all of his roles. He desperately needs to play a villain for a change.

Frank: clearly the agents are the leaking party on FA day 1

It’s kind of funny when you consider how much KB PTSD deja vu was was triggered by these initial reports. And if the deals were as reported, the anxiety attack would have been 100% justified.

It’s sort of like when you expect a michelin star meal and get get handed a bag with a ham sandwich inside. Turns out to be a really tasty ham sandwich with excellent bread, cheese, hot peppers, gourmet condiments, and an unexpectedly delicious side order. Still a ham sandwich, but whatever.

So, two years and 18 million for Kemba? Anything else in this deal?

Owen:
So, two years and 18 million for Kemba? Anything else in this deal?

2nd year is a team option?

DudeInKnicksTown: We allowed the Hawks to end up with Johnson and Cooper. Why?

Maybe it’s because “we” aren’t the ones making the basketball decisions.

“Plus, it’s one of those where you need to get about halfway into the first season until it really figures itself out.“

That, to me, is one of the things that disproves all the blather about a new Golden Age of Television. The need to invest multiple hours or weeks just to see if a show is any good is a big reason why so many supposedly great shows have such tiny audiences.

The Walking Dead was about 75% fully formed after one episode. There was probably more narrative content in a season of ER than the entire run of Mad Men.

Mike

MBunge:
“Plus, it’s one of those where you need to get about halfway into the first season until it really figures itself out.“

That, to me, is one of the things that disproves all the blather about a new Golden Age of Television.The need to invest multiple hours or weeks just to see if a show is any good is a big reason why so many supposedly great shows have such tiny audiences.

The Walking Dead was about 75% fully formed after one episode.There was probably more narrative content in a season of ER than the entire run of Mad Men.

Mike

ER was a weekly procedural, Mad Men was character study; of course there was more narrative content in ER.

Since we’re talking about TV is anyone else watching The White Lotus on HBO? I think it’s hilarious.

That, to me, is one of the things that disproves all the blather about a new Golden Age of Television. The need to invest multiple hours or weeks just to see if a show is any good is a big reason why so many supposedly great shows have such tiny audiences.

The Walking Dead was about 75% fully formed after one episode. There was probably more narrative content in a season of ER than the entire run of Mad Men.

Walking Dead peaked with its first episode and has been unwatchable for a long time now. I love ER, but that was a procedural. The history of television is littered with shows that needed multiple seasons to fully find themselves: Star Trek The Next Generation, The Simpsons, and Seinfeld, to name three of many. To go with a more recent example, most of the first season of Breaking Bad is a pale shadow of what that show became.

Your Sopranoses and your Cheerses that are great from minute one — and, unlike Walking Dead, stay great — have always been the exceptions, not the rule.

thenoblefacehumper: Turns out the original figure reported included unlikely incentives. This could help answer some of our questions, as the difference between his actual salary and the reported figure could be the cap space we used to sign McBride.

It is. With Noel’s salary, and the McBride rookie min, we have 2/16M for Kemba. If Burks and Fournier have 500k unlikely bonuses each, we can up the offer to 2/18M for Kemba and give the “standard” 120% rookie salary to Grimes (which would make a lot more sense, because i don’t trust Berman on this kind of info, i must say).
I had Noel with a salary between 8M to 9M on my offseason plans, and they did it, so this is a very good signing now.

This new Giannis biography…wow…as if I needed a reason to dislike Kidd even more than I already did. The guy sounds like a lunatic.

haven’t stopped thinking about We3 yet…looking at some of your old articles from 2009 on the comic…

the thing that sticks with me more than anything is that i get the whole: fuck fascist pigs theme in the work – however, just based on the narrative/dialogue and the visuals of the work – it seemed like a very personal work, with a personal message in it…

i just don’t know though enough about grant morrison to understand what morrison may have been going through or what they were trying to express exactly…the wiki auto-bio on him doesn’t really help…

it’s well done, very intentional though…ugh, the image of that poor bunny…yeah, incredible journey it was not…

link please…

At least the Mavericks will get Luka and la diva on the same page about something. LOL

I LOVE The White Lotus. Its amazing.

“THIS IS THE GRITTIEST TV SHOW EVER! ITS SO REALISTIC!!!”

– Me in high school watching ER when it was originally on the air

“Are they operating on a mannequin?”

-Me, rewatching ER today

BTW, how much cap space will we have next summer? Knox comes off the books, as does Joakim effing Noah (sigh), but Randle’s extension kicks in. Will we be over the cap (which gives us access to the mid-level), or would we have some amount of space?

i remember the first time rose was here and how adverse he was to going over the screen on defense, or penetrating towards the rim on offense…he looked scared of any kind of contact on his knee…disappointing but, understandable…nowadays he just looks much more judicious penetrating (helps he can shoot from outside now) to the rim, and, he actually fights through screens – maybe one of the most startling rose developments last year was his defensive play (rose had a positive dbpm last year)…

hopefully kemba can evolve his game to still be a 2 or more plus bpm guy while staying healthy…and, at least be neutral on the defensive end…

RJ had a tough time finishing around the rim last year, if he can penetrate and either pass or finish more consistently – and – mitch comes back with a more evolved offensive game, it’ll balance out not having our point guard driving to the hoop for the first three quarters of the game…

if we could get 65 plus games out of each next year – that would be amazing…

edit: maybe 60 games???

Alan:
BTW, how much cap space will we have next summer? Knox comes off the books, as does Joakim effing Noah (sigh), but Randle’s extension kicks in. Will we be over the cap (which gives us access to the mid-level), or would we have some amount of space?

Spotrac has some estimates up. Including Vildoza we have $113M in contracts next summer. That also includes RJ’s $10.9M option, $5.3M option, and $2.3M option.

Jesus, I’d forgotten that Cuttino Mobley was ever on the team, and I only remembered that Larry Hughes was when I saw his name on your list, Jowles.

Isiah Thomas is a helluva drug.

“Here are some Knicks from the vaunted 2008-09 team who made more in one-year salary than Kemba will at AAV:

Eddy Curry
Larry Hughes
Al Harrington
Cuttino Mobley

Ahh, the good old days – what a mess
Don’t tell Kemba

**Spotrac has some estimates up. Including Vildoza we have $113M in contracts next summer. That also includes RJ’s $10.9M option, $5.3M option, and $2.3M option.**

Cap next year is projected at $115M. But we’ll also have money from our 1st rd pick hold (barring another pick 19 fiasco). We’re also likely to retain Mitch’s cap hold worth over $3M. So either of those should put us over.

Even without the pick or Mitch, we’ll end up with more money acting over the cap so it’d make sense to retain some cap holds to give us access to the mid-level.

We can sign 4yr deals with the mid-level, so our 2nd rd pick, Rokas, and anyone else we grab won’t run into the 2yr limit we had to work around for McBride.

okay, so, other than writing long, pedantic, expository emails (man, if i ever ran in to me – i think i would totally annoy me) all day, been doing some more old shit snooping:

– seems volcanoes even half a world away can really disrupt life/society for a location – didn’t know a volcano over by alaska (Okmok) helped lower the region’s temp in the mediterranean by 13 degrees or so around the finale for the fall of the roman republic (43 bc)…also, cuz of the stuff ash has in it (sulfate aerosols), a massive explosion can mess up the rain patterns and flood cycles throughout for a while…

– interesting there’s evidence of written language around 4700 years ago in the middle east and egypt, a thousand years after that – south asia, another thousand years in china and europe…nothing though from the americas until almost another thousand years…

ha, it’s kind of funny, to me at least – i’m one of those people that start answering your question before you’ve even gotten two sentences out…then i’ll talk incessantly hoping to cover any potential questions you may have had…

yeah, there’s only so much time and space you know…

Let’s see how long I can watch this game for… eager to see Deuce play.

IQ doing some PG-ey things out there…

Sims has very heavy feet for an uber-athletic guy

Joku!

Every Knick is making MacLung look like a child lol.

The 3 from Joku was obviously nice, but more impressed with the finish in transition

Joku with another three!

At least we know what ruruland’s been up to on Twitter lately…

https://www.foxnews.com/sports/ex-nba-coach-received-death-threats-after-calling-carmelo-anthony-s-tty-defender

Donnie Walsh:
At least we know what ruruland’s been up to on Twitter lately…

https://www.foxnews.com/sports/ex-nba-coach-received-death-threats-after-calling-carmelo-anthony-s-tty-defender

lol

The O/U on career NBA minutes for Travis is 0.5. Take the under.

McBride makes Frank look like a lazy defender.

LOL at the 80 points double overtime in SL

I’m curious now to see how deuce performs once he’s out there with a court full of NBA players…he can pass the ball pretty well, not sure what his hand size is, but he can hit guys in the hands…

his handle’s not terrible…

IMO, our rookies don’t look good enough to be rotation players at this stage. We’ll certainly have some injuries and rest days with Kemba and Rose. So eventually they’ll get minutes.

I dunno, McBride looks good enough to be on the roster with some back and forth in the G-League.

I dunno how many minutes he’ll wind up playing but McBride is definitely an NBA player.

I like what I see in the 3 American draftees. Grimes has a good spot-up 3, McBride is a defensive dog and Sims looks like a perfect 4th center on a 2-way contract.

If McBride keeps hitting that 3 he’ll be very good..

Obi is worrying on many levels but the 3 looks for real.

Grimes can’t buy a corner 3.

McBride looks pretty good on both sides, but is he a PG or an undersized SG?

I…just don’t think it’s gonna happen for Obi Toppin

Deuce might have to change his name to Tre

Deeefense: McBride looks pretty good on both sides, but is he a PG or an undersized SG?

He looks like a swing guard. He can handle the ball and I’ve seen some nice dishing by him.
And if he can keep shooting like he’s shooting in this game, he will play a role this year.

IQ might not be a true PG but he’s so much fun to watch.

Grimes is a pretty good rebounder

let’s not get carried away with mcbride tonight. the willis game is still a bit better.

Jack Bauer:
To echo some other KB comments now that I’ve seen him play:

McBride is a baller. He gets up into guys on defense, love it

IQ looks pretty good out there
I like Obi a lot and want himto succeed but man does he look stiff. He has to be the most awkward looking allegedly athletic player I’ve ever seen.

Yeah, this is very much what I see see Obi too. Everything seems labored with him, it feels sometimes like he’s just a hyperactive Kevin Knox that jumps high, tries hard but ultimately is just not coordinated enough to put it all together. I don’t think there have been many examples in history of players that look like giraffes on skates developing high end NBA level coordination and body control, but I guess we can hope he finds at least a niche where he can be useful.

Can’t wait for Mega Max McBride (MMM)

Thibs is the best.

ptmilo:
let’s not get carried away with mcbride tonight.the willis game is still a bit better.

Another thread winner for pt

Grades:
IQ: A+ everything you’d want from a SL game
Deuce: A+ Hit shot after shot in the 2nd half, would have certainly lost without him
Joku: B looked so much better than last game. played under control and hard on both ends. Has a Goran Dragic looking 3 stroke.
Grimes: B- I can’t believe those open shots won’t start falling. Hustles on D and rebounds.
Obi: C The stats don’t tell the whole story, his overall floor game looked very shaly on both ends
Sims: C- seems a step behind on both ends
The rest: yawn

Kevin Knox’s highest value after he was drafted was probably during his second season when there was still some hope he could at least be a rotation player.

I think at some point we have to try and move Obi before the rest of the league realizes he’s sucks.

geo:
I’m curious now to see how deuce performs once he’s out there with a court full of NBA players…he can pass the ball pretty well, not sure what his hand size is, but he can hit guys in the hands…

his handle’s not terrible…

Geo. I saw him palming the ball with one hand during a stoppage. He’s got big hands

Z-man:
If McBride keeps hitting that 3 he’ll be very good..

Six out of six is good, isn’t it,

i also like the time thibs spends with quik after the game, cool to see the old coach so invested in the young player…he almost hit 20 minutes a game last year, that number will go up…when kemba sits – he may start at point…

if i had to choose a knick jersey to pick up right now – probably would be #5…but, that’s only because all the #2 knick jerseys just sold out…

the number one may be available soon – it’ll be interesting to see how the knicks front office handle obi going forward…

Where’s Vildoza?

DudeInKnicksTown: Where’s Vildoza?

@NY_KnicksPR: Luca Vildoza (sore right foot) is out for tonight’s Summer League game and is considered day-to-day.

I’m not completely out on Obi….his 3pt shot looks improved and sustainable, he has some moves around the basket, and he can run the floor and handle the ball a bit. The Lakers were playing a very aggressive zone, and he kept driving into the teeth of it. He’s definitely got limitations that will keep him from being a star.

>Where’s Vildoza?<

If IQ and McBride are going to get time at PG when Kemba and/or Rose are out, we don’t need Vildoza. He showed very little in the Olympics. I’d rather have the space and open a roster spot.

The Vildoza question is interesting. I do not imagine he is interested in being the 5th string PG behind Kemba/Rose/Quickley/McBride. He can play off-ball also but it’s just hard to see where him minutes come from. Wonder whether we would guarantee this coming year and then trade him for a 2nd or something? From what people said at the time of his signing in April, he would’ve been a FA target this offseason.

i wouldn’t go too crazy drawing conclusions from this team.. good or bad.. in summer league… it’s an older squad relative to others and you run into a team like the lakers and they may have one guy who will sniff the nba in their career and the rest will be selling insurance within a few…

you can occasionally draw conclusions from the younger guys…. but then again there’s plenty of kevin knox examples where they hold their own and then proceed to do nothing… and then you have guys like kevin durant who did nothing and turn into one of the best players in the nba….

in any case we don’t really have those kind of guys this year so this is all just theater at this point but it does get you familiar with the games of the rookies if anything…. but that’s probably it….

IQ played in the NBA last year so what he does in summer league is essentially irrelevant, but no one should be surprised that he’s lighting it up. As noted during the discussions of him last year, he likely wouldn’t have fallen to the Knicks if there had been a regular pre-draft process, and if there had been a 2020 summer league he would have done basically this and we all would have been really excited.

Quintin Grimes is even more stiff and unathletic than I feared and is really not showing anything, even against the inferior competition in Vegas. The contrast even with someone like Knox’s first summer league is stark. Still have no idea why or how the Knicks got so locked in on him. Obviously still early in his career, but not seeing anything there.

Deuce McBride bears a very strong resemblance game-wise to Carsen Edwards.

If Lillard, Beal, or some other disgruntled star to be named later becomes available and all we have is some bench rider they don’t want instead of an extra pick they do want we’ll be scratching our asses instead of our heads for not having enough picks to get the job done.

Summer league hall of famers:

Marco Belinelli
Kyle Kuzma
Von Wafer
Marcus Banks
Anthony Morrow
Josh Hart
Anthony Randolph
Nate Robinson

Also, if he were 3-4″ taller, no way he’s available at #36

ess-dog:
Man, I wish we were privy to the top-secret free-agency battle going on for Frank right now… the offers must be piling up at this point!

Yeah but it appears that Limoges has the inside track…

thenoblefacehumper:
If a “smart team” does sign Frank, but that team is in Lithuania’s Lietuvos Krepsinio Lyga, do both Strat and I get to declare victory?

One can safely assume that strat will declare victory unless Frank becomes a shoe salesman…

Yeah, I think measurables are one of the least important things to worry about with prospects. Obviously all things equal you’d love a 6’5″ PG with a big wingspan over a 6’1″ PG but measurables seem to be something that will allows good prospects to fall in the draft for no good reason. The same way teams reflexively go with the young player bc of “upside.”

swiftandabundant:
Yeah, I think measurables are one of the least important things to worry about with prospects. Obviously all things equal you’d love a 6’5? PG with a big wingspan over a 6’1? PG but measurables seem to be something that will allows good prospects to fall in the draft for no good reason. The same way teams reflexively go with the young player bc of “upside.”

See: Frank Ntilikina KB draft threads

Good players find a way to be good and useful. That’s all I’m saying. The history of this league is filled with productive players who did well despite their measurables. I get what you are saying but if he’s good, he’s good and he will figure out a way to be good. If he’s not, he won’t be.

Remember when we put Cole Aldrich in the summer league and he was by far the best player on the court

The issue with McBride isn’t necessarily that he’s not a good enough distributor to be a point guard. It’s that he doesn’t put a lot of pressure on the rim and thus his opportunities as a playmaker have been limited (the two issues are linked of course).

A decent model (i.e. great outcome) for him offensively is VanVleet. He’s similarly sized, a good-not-great passer, and also doesn’t put a lot of pressure on the rim. He compensated by becoming a damn good 3PT shooter at high volume and getting just barely respectable enough around the rim (and at least getting there with a lot of frequency) to force defenses to react.

@ShamsCharania
Source: Kawhi Leonard is signing a four-year, $176.3 million deal to return to the Los Angeles Clippers.

Source: Kawhi Leonard is signing a four-year, $176.3 million deal to return to the Los Angeles Clippers.

Too bad. It really would’ve been something if he’d actually been able to get a 1+1 and spend the entire year rehabbing on Ballmer’s dime just to be a free agent again next summer. The ultimate expression of the player empowerment era – getting them to pay you the max for a year where you’re not playing just in the hope of staying in your good graces for your next free agency.

Weakly correlated… an r^2 of .28 is not that strong. I think that makes some sense intuitively — it’s better to do well than do poorly in SL, but I wouldn’t put toooooo much stock in SL performance.

Very cool find though TNFH!

i think hollinger or pelton did some research way back when into summer league.. i may have even posted it awhile back.. and from my memory i think they found something similar… it’s a weak relationship but it’s better to do good than not good but also that shooting %s don’t really matter but shooting volume does… which was interesting…

six for six from three, seems like some lotto player kind of numbers…not a lot of excess movement in his shot either…he can palm the ball, but, seems to prefer using both hands to pass, and he’s good at hitting guys in their hands, which seems really hard with bodies in motion…he has some good repeatable mechanics…and he’s fast…

i’m not really even looking towards his ability to defend, seems like he can do that okay – like a lot of other folks – i’m hoping against hope that we can somehow secure a nba starting level (or hope against hope: elite) point guard for a few seasons, in their prime…

i’m doubtful on both quik and mcbride as point guards, but, other guys have surprised at the position…

moved on from frank, forgot about knox, hopeful with mitch, confident in RJ, don’t have much hope for obi or grimes…there’s a chance though that quik and/or mcbride can help us win, now and later…

I have mixed feelings about Grimes. The area he stood out in was rebounds. He got nine of them playing as a guard. That’s a big htt we lo but I don’t know if he can do that in the NBA.

The same Jason Kidd who beat up his wife? He’s a piece of shit human being? No way

Sharife with 21 and 12. Editorial comment withheld.

Watching Faried (31 yrs old, career earnings over 57M), Beasley (32, over 40M) and slightly less Mudiay (25, around 16M) playing for the Portland SL team made me sad…

So, we’re two highly likely Harden and Irving extensions, and one likely Lavine extension away from the heralded 2022 Free Agency crop being reduced to… Bradley Beal!

Seems like Leon read the room correctly in terms of realizing that stars just aren’t going to become free agents anymore, thus making max cap space less valuable than it was for most of the last 11 years. Obviously, there are downsides to his approach (we can’t weaponize cap space to acquire assets like before, and it’s possible that other teams may not want our assortment of mid-priced as part of a trade or sign-and-trade package), but the market overall has shifted dramatically the last few years.

Alan: Seems like Leon read the room correctly in terms of realizing that stars just aren’t going to become free agents anymore, thus making max cap space less valuable than it was for most of the last 11 years. Obviously, there are downsides to his approach (we can’t weaponize cap space to acquire assets like before, and it’s possible that other teams may not want our assortment of mid-priced as part of a trade or sign-and-trade package), but the market overall has shifted dramatically the last few years.

Yeah, there definitely seems to be a realistic approach rather than the pipe dream bs of the Phil/Mills and prior regimes. There also seems to be a realization that chasing the Nets by starfucking is unnecessary in the court of public opinion, i.e. if you just put an exiting and reasonably competitive product on the MSG floor the vast majority of the fanbase will stay loyal and NYC will still be a Knicks town.

To me, that approach is an underappreciated part of the anti-win now crowd. Even if a tear it down to the studs rebuild is arguably the most prudent approach to building a contender, if we were a deep lottery team last year and Durant’s feet were a bit shorter, the damage in the PR realm would have been severe. Last year’s run to the playoffs bought the FO time and latitude in going forward.

Beyond a few “smart” folks here, Knicks fans don’t really give a shit that they made some weird moves on draft day. They want a team that’s not going to be a gif-generating laughing stock and suffer humiliating blowouts at home. They want some lunchpail blue collar guys who leave it all on the floor. They want guys from Ft. Greene and the Bronx to root for. They want some young, homegrown stars to get behind. Seems like this FO is all over that vibe and is playing the juggle win-now with patient rebuild act well.

This FO has the team well positioned to be players in 2023 free agency, and possibly for a trade for a difference-maker before then. The nice thing for now is that they seem to be actually giving the young players a chance to develop as part of figuring out what is needed going forward. MIA is putting a lot of stock in that finals run being repeatable with Lowry in the fold. CHI gave up a lot for Vuc and even with all their moves still might not be a top-6 team in the East.

This will be a really interesting year in terms of the battle for the 4-6 seeds in both conferences. You can kind of pencil in MIL, PHI, BKN at the top of the EC, and LAL, UTA and either LAC or PHX at the top of the WC. Then there is lots of parity. Even the bottom feeders are interesting.

The Deuce McBride content you have been looking for.

https://theathletic.com/2767961/2021/08/13/knicks-rookie-miles-mcbride-knows-the-way-to-get-on-the-court-in-new-york-and-hes-showing-it/

***Beyond a few “smart” folks here, Knicks fans don’t really give a shit that they made some weird moves on draft day***

Have we forgotten “The Crying Kid” already?

Count de Pennies: As things turned out, the reaction of the “Crying Kid” on draft day proved to be appropriate. Guess he was a pretty smart fan after all.

lol well we still have Grimes, a top-10 protected pick and a second rounder to show for it, (and I guess you can partially credit DSjr for landing us DRose), and there were busts galore surrounding KP in that draft, so maybe he wasn’t all that smart…

Totes, your question is fair, but i think there’s some reasons for Kemba’s homecoming being more talked about than Marbury’s homecoming.
First, there was no social media back then, so you relied a lot on the media to get hyped or not. Maybe the media felt it wasn’t a lock to go great and decided it wasn’t worth it.
Second, he came during the season, it’s not the best situation to get hyped with the homecoming if your saviour comes and plays right away… and the team loses the first 2 games.
Third, and last, the team Marbury joined was like this: Marbury, Houston, Van Horn, Kurt Thomas, Mutombo; O.Harrington, Penny Hardaway, Shandon Anderson;
Kind of hard to get hyped about that team… but i got a lot hopeful when that move was made, thinking Marbury would solve the PG situation (and he did), and with some more moves in the coming summer we’d get a lot better, but… we got ISIAH-ed! 😛

cybersoze:

First, there was no social media back then, so you relied a lot on the media to get hyped or not.

Yeah, you’re right Cyber, totally different environment… what a good time…

cybersoze:

Maybe the media felt it wasn’t a lock to go great and decided it wasn’t worth it.

He was a loser and a huge waste of talent, we knew that and the media knew it too…

Totes McGoats as Totes McGoats: I just find it odd that Marbury didn’t get the type of hype Kemba is getting as a returning NYC star.

Totes, I hear you on this as Marbury was All NBA third team at the time he joined the Knicks. But I think one big difference is that the Marbury returning home hype got used up when he went from Minny to the Nets. In effect he was re-returning after a not very stellar first return. Even so, I do remember his trade to NY as a big deal at the time. It may be that we have subconsciously reduced the hype that actually existed given how his tenure as a Knick panned out.

Moving up for Duarte or Murphy and getting Deuce in round 2 would’ve been ideal in retrospect, but we can only assume those deals weren’t available.

Grimes seems like a great kid, and I’m rooting for him. I think his shot will start falling at a better rate, and he seems to have a decent enough handle. Actually, a guy currently on the team, Alec Burks, seems like an ideal role model for him, so maybe he’s in the right environment.

Meanwhile, Tankathon has us taking six-foot PG Kennedy Chandler, Tennessee, in the 2022 draft. Does anyone know him?

Z-man: lol well we still have Grimes, a top-10 protected pick and a second rounder to show for it, (and I guess you can partially credit DSjr for landing us DRose), and there were busts galore surrounding KP in that draft, so maybe he wasn’t all that smart…

Next year we’re gonna pick Julian Champagnie,
we need a Johnnie on the Knicks and we can’t risk another Ron Artest fiasco… 🙂

My take on the Kemba love is that the deal is so team friendly and it’s coming off of a miracle season engineered by a popular coach and a refreshing management team. He didn’t cost the assets that Marbury did, nor is he getting paid by our team anywhere near what Marbury got paid (especially % of cap-wise.) He wasn’t brought here to be the face of the franchise like Marbury was, and everyone knew that Marbury was a big question mark as a #1 guy. There’s really no comparison on the character front, Marbury was surly, uncoachable loner, Kemba is a charming, upbeat, great locker room guy. But if Rose traded IQ for Kemba and took on his whole deal and branded him as the face of the franchise, the reception wouldn’t be nearly as warm.

Grimes seems like a totally fine prospect who I would have been happy selecting somewhere in the second round.

One thing we kinda overlooked in all the back and forth was this: the defense of the draft is that the Knicks are saving their ammo for a trade. But even if you just stuck Jalen and Keon Johnson in the G League and called them up sporadically, I think they’d be more coveted in a trade than Quentin Grimes and a highly protected first from Charlotte.

Keon Johnson probably sucks, so I won’t lose sleep over him. But I think he had value as a prospect, as evidenced by the Clips willing to trade up for him.

tnfh,

Yeah, this hard to argue with your logic, but at the end of the day you have only one guy to choose and the odds are not in favor of that guy being all that valuable a year or two down the road. The trade bugs me more because of the protections than the general concept. I don’t think the bet that CHA becomes a playoff team in the next 4 years is better than the bet that the #19 pick is worth more in a subsequent trade. But even 2 years out, you can definitely still market that pick as a lottery-protected #1 and #1’s with those kinds of protections are pretty commonly used in transactions.

It seems that the initial “they did it again, and clearly don’t know what they’re doing” takes at the time are evolving into a “they are overall pretty competent but may have holes in their valuation of current draft position risk-reward game.” What I object to is the painting of the decision as “lazy” or “uninformed.” For example, it’s likely they clearly didn’t like Jalen Johnson based on their extensive research (and neither did I) so passing on him was not about forfeiting draft position. There’s certainly merit to the argument “well, just take him and if he bombs, you still can get all the other guys anyway by trading down from 21 and 32, and if he hits you have a stud at #19.” But if they really didn’t like anyone more than the guys they got, and their research led them to conclude that the future pick would likely have more value in a future transaction than burning the pick on one of the current guys you don’t really like, I can live with that in the larger context of what they did.

***My recollection is that Tyson Chandler took the highest offer after Dallas decided he wasn’t worth the money.***

Sure, there was money involved. But I mean he wanted to come here, i.e. he chose to come as a free agent rather than being dealt in a trade. (He was the last free agent signing that generated significant excitement from the fanbase).

The 19th pick trade this year and the 30something pick last year are two of the only moves the FO has made that have really confused me.

My sense as to why they made the trades at all = they truly do not think they can adequately develop more than 2-3 rookies per year (rookies, not other young players such as RJ/Mitch etc who also need developing). Ergo drafting two rookies (IQ+Toppin) last year, and trading out the other picks for the future. This year — drafting Grimes/McBride, a draft-and-stash in Rokas, and, well #58 holds zero trade value so they took a flyer on Sims who will prob be in the g-league.

As to why they made the specific trades – harder to say. Trading out #33 or whatever it was last year for a 2023 2nd is straight bad value. Hard to defend that one. Re: 19 this year – seems likely they had a tier of guys they were happy to take that were all about equal on their board. If players from 19-36 are equal on your board and you only want 2 total rookies on the big club, then it makes sense to trade out the best asset for the most value you can get, trade 21–>25 and pick up a 2nd rounder, then pick whoever’s left at the top of that tier.

If Grimes isn’t there at 25, then maybe they take Bones. If Bones and Grimes aren’t there, then maybe Josh Christopher is.

Then when you get to 32 and maybe OKC calls with 34+36 for 32, well that’s a no-brainer. You get Rokas who maybe the scouts really like, and then you hope McBride falls to 36. If no McBride, then Jared Butler, Ayo Dosonmu, or JT Thor are all in that same tier.

We really just don’t know at all how they value players and what their draft philosophy is. Clearly they feel good about trading down in the draft, which suggests to me that they either have great intelligence about who is going to be taken where, and/or they tier players and are comfortable drafting anyone in that tier in a certain draft range. So far it’s been good – we’ll see how it plays out.

Since no one was in favor of trading #19 or thinks it was a good move even in retrospect, it has become an argument about what it says about the FO’s overall competence. There’s a pretty wide range of opinions here. I’m personally very satisfied with the overall trajectory of the roster and the overall results of the drafting process even with the blips, and am thrilled with the current state of public perception of the franchise, even among the most caustic perennial critics in the media. That smells like competence to me.

I understand their rookie moves. With Thibs and Rose’s “win now” mentality, it doesn’t make sense [in their eyes] to pay a high-upside #19 pick’s salary (nearly 2 mil?) to stay in the GLeague (a Josh Christopher or Keon Johnson type) when you can get two older guys (at a lower price) who can adequately sub for injured rotational guys up at the main ball club.

Most people here feel that money is better spent grooming a young, high-upside player, but the FO assumes they will get their team leaders/stars through free agency/trade. It’s a different perspective, but it’s easy to argue that the FO’s is more conservative and offers less chance of failure. Most league “stars” are taken in the top 3 or 5 picks with some notable exceptions. And even if the Knicks do pass on an eventual future star, their take is probably, “oh we will just sign/trade for them later if they’re worth it.”

at the end of the day you have only one guy to choose and the odds are not in favor of that guy being all that valuable a year or two down the road.

Again, this is a defeatist way of viewing the situation. It’s not the way a team with confidence in its drafting abilities would view it, and especially not in this specific context in which the only bar the player has to cross is a heavily protected first that may well become two seconds.

But even 2 years out, you can definitely still market that pick as a lottery-protected #1 and #1’s with those kinds of protections are pretty commonly used in transactions.

All kinds of picks are used in trades so of course this one could be used in one, but there’s no reason to think it will punch above its weight value wise. All other teams can see the protections, analyze the state of Charlotte’s team, etc. Not all “lottery protected #1s” are created equal, and we won’t get special credit just because this pick meets that broad description. It is exactly what it is: an unexciting pick that won’t generate much value on its own.

What I object to is the painting of the decision as “lazy” or “uninformed.”

Personally, I don’t really care what negative adjective is used to describe the transaction. If it wasn’t lazy or uninformed, maybe it was overly rigid, or panicked, or whatever. We lost the trade. It was one of many transactions in an offseason I give a B-/B, so everyone can make of it what they will.

it really goes beyond player choices… at least for me… and that’s what made the move most egregious…

I agree, the player choices just really twisted the knife. I suppose you could imagine a scenario in which the choices were so unexciting this trade made sense, but this was not it by a long shot.

Team is even better this year, and they’re going to have a hard time getting minutes for Grimes and McBride, much less if they drafted 1 or 2 more players.

The Hawks are better than us and will almost certainly not be able to give significant minutes to Jalen Johnson and Sharife Cooper right away. Ditto for the Sixers and Springer/Bassey. I don’t see anybody saying it was dumb of them to make those picks instead of trading them for future picks for that reason.

Good things happen when you get a lot of good players on your roster.

The predictable response it that we could have just dumped Knox or signed a cheaper FA than the ones we did. Pepole are pretty dug in.

You are correct that Knox is really the low-hanging fruit here. There is not a single argument about minutes allocation or roster spots that makes any sense as long as he’s on the team. There is no way one can galaxy brain themselves into thinking having him for 1/$5.8M is a better use of scarce resources than having Jalen Johnson (or whoever else) on a rookie-scale deal.

Keep in mind we could’ve literally just waived (not stretched) Knox and it wouldn’t have prevented us from doing anything we did, because we’re paying him anyway.

thenoblefacehumper: It was one of many transactions in an offseason I give a B-/B, so everyone can make of it what they will.

B/B- is a fair grade, we can quibble up to an A- or down to a C- but some posts are reading like D’s and F’s, largely on the basis of this one transaction and the actual pick made at the spots we eventually picked at. As I said, it is nearly universally agreed on that we probably lost value in this one transaction, but there’s a puncher’s chance that it will result in a favorable outcome down the road. The only questions are: how much current value did we lose based on what we actually know, and how relevant is it in judging the overall competence of this FO? If your grade is a B, you are sort of admitting that it’s not super important, and that’s even before judging the results in hindsight.

The odd thing is that it seems pretty likely to me that had they just stood pat made the picks where they did, there’s a reasonable probability that they would have taken Grimes and McBride in those spots, and Joku at #32. They clearly systematically passed over everyone else that was available. That’s why I am not bent out of shape about this transaction and am much more concerned with whether Grimes, McBride and Joku are good picks or not. To me, that’s a more fun conversation because there are great differences here at KB on where Grimes and McBride should have gone. So far, McBride looks like a #19 or better in a redraft. Grimes, not so much.

Trust the process or trust the results? I’m a results trumps process guy myself. The results of these particular transactions are not really apparent yet. I’m content to wait and see, given where we are in the big scheme of things.

In a redraft right now do you take McBride, Grimes, or Johnson at 19? Assume you only have one pick.

If we had a redraft today I’m doing the same thing I would have done on draft night in round 1: Jalen Johnson and either Keon Johnson or Isiah Jackson in round 1.

Assuming OKC still calls us to make the same trade, in round 2 I would have taken Cooper & Ayo on draft night. But now I’d take McBride & Cooper.

I picked Cam Thomas in our redraft at #19. 31 pointz last night.

Trust the process or trust the results? I’m a results trumps process guy myself. The results of these particular transactions are not really apparent yet. I’m content to wait and see, given where we are in the big scheme of things.

The thing is things could turn out well for us without changing the fact that this particular move was dumb. Every dumb move makes it that much harder to reach contention, but only Phil Jackson level blunders truly preclude it.

The Bucks’ winning it at all doesn’t mean it was retroactively smart that they traded 20 year-old Tobias Harris for 5 months of JJ Redick. That move made it less likely they’d eventually be contenders, but they made it up for it with other smart moves (one in particular involving the 15th overall pick).

If Jalen Johnson or someone else we passed on becomes an impact player and the Charlotte pick fizzles out, no outcome for us will change the fact that the move was stupid.

Obviously, the better our eventual outcome the less people will care about that, and rightfully so.

In a redraft right now do you take McBride, Grimes, or Johnson at 19? Assume you only have one pick.

Johnson, McBride, Grimes in that order, which is no different than the order I had them pre-draft.

Really what it boils down to is that the FO had a much different list of players it wanted — in an order that probably didn’t match the list of any poster here. I had Jalen Johnson, Jared Springer, and Josh Christopher higher than where they went and Primo, Kispert, and Mann lower than where they were drafted. It will take time to figure out who is right and wrong on these, but it seems like the consensus is usually pretty solid, and the Knicks draft fell largely outside of the consensus. So be it.

It will take time to figure out who is right and wrong on these, but it seems like the consensus is usually pretty solid, and the Knicks draft fell largely outside of the consensus. So be it.

it’s really not going to take time … the front office basically said that nobody at pick 19 or later was going to be useful for them to the point that they would rather have the possibility of not picking at all rather than actually using it…

just like last year’s bet that anybody in the second round was not going to turn into a useful player…. that is a bet that is just not going to work out…. and the number of useful players picked after pick 19 is going to show the magnitude of that mistake just like with the kevin knox pick….

just like with the eddy curry trade that everyone can recognize was entirely stupid… eddy curry could be an allstar… and we could’ve been a playoff team… but that’s just a completely unnecessary risk to be taking….

***You were not.***

I believe you. I remember the general consensus being that since the Knicks had nothing better to do than try to grow young talent that the options should be exercised. And I just dipped into the archives to confirm, and found this amusing tidbit from 2017 by a poster named Stratomatic says “NY basketball is back”:

“Setting salaries aside, I’m not sure I would trade Frank for Kemba straight up. In fact, I know I wouldn’t. I think there is a 10% chance Frank is the best all around player on the team in 2-3 years.”

Ironically, the Knicks effectively swapped out Frank for Kemba 2-3 years later. If only Stratomatic says “NY basketball is back” still posted here, we could ask him if he still thinks this. (We could also ask him ot sure why a professional gambler would bet so confidently on “a 10% chance”).

Frank who?

Geo, You are sharp today! Thanks very much. Plus, between you and me, I don’t see trading 19 as that much of a blemish. I mean, it might convey 19 next year and we may draft a sleeper superstar.

And Z-Man thanks for your steady takes. Particularly, casting a thoughtful eye on the L Ball and K Lowery contracts.

Question for you, both (and anyone else) I haven’t heard anyone talk about Quickly’s lack of a lefty finish. Seems to me (but it’s eye test) that he finishes right handed on the left side of the hoop. That seems to be the one PG skill he lacks, no? And it is fundamental and might explain the reliance on the floater?

PS. Off hand layups are one of my favorite things.
Oh yeah, and can we get a new thread please? I’m begging….

geo:
so, wait – are we saying miles mcbride at an aav salary of 1.4 million for 3 years isn’t such a great value, or rose’s/burks’/julius’/nerlens’/evian’s deals are not such good values???

or, are we just saying the front office doesn’t always get it right: #19?

the not always getting it right thing, kind of sounds like something that happens with every single front office…it’s absolutely 100% justifiable to critique each and every front office move – to paint a broad stroke of FO incompetence since leon’s arrival, just doesn’t seem very accurate, eye test and all you know…

Everyone wants to praise Pop and co. for White and Murray but I think that over the past decade, it looks more like they have had no clue what they were doing in the draft.

i don’t think pop does much on the drafting side.. he has some input but he himself also said that he almost stopped the kawhi trade because he liked george hill so much…

and the front office itself isn’t some infallible engine… i mean the raptors have had a near flawless draft record but that’s absolutely not normal…. but the spurs and buford have had one of the best track records despite some questionable decisions… here’s their last 10 years of picks:

2020: Devin Vassell
2019: Luka Samanic.. Keldon Johnson
2018: Lonnie Walker
2017: Derrick White
2016: Dejounte Murray
2015: Nikola Milutinov
2014: Kyle Anderson
2013: Livio Jean-Charles
2012: none
2011: Cory Joseph

and even not factoring in the foreign stashes being made due to roster crunches of championship squads… and the fact that they were picking in the very late first round for 90% of these picks… they had a 60% hit rate on rotation players… they were absolutely punching way above their weight…

and in recent years they had a mandate to go for a lot of upside given the absence of top flight difference makers.. which is understandable… that almost explains the primo and walker picks so i get it… i don’t agree with it but i see the rationale… and the draft requires taking some risks and some of the ‘mistakes’ in hindsight are just a residue of the risks you have to take in order to stay relevant in the association… a roster full of keldon johnsons and dejounte murray’s is nice but it’s not making much noise anywhere…

because the biggest risk.. more often than not.. is not taking any….

I haven’t heard anyone talk about Quickly’s lack of a lefty finish. Seems to me (but it’s eye test) that he finishes right handed on the left side of the hoop. That seems to be the one PG skill he lacks, no? And it is fundamental and might explain the reliance on the floater?

howdy dan, i hope all is well for you 🙂

I haven’t noticed his hand usage, i’ll keep an eye on it tonight…

Berman:

Knicks rookie center Jericho Sims will sit this one out tonight vs. Detroit for “rest”. PG Luca Vildoza still out with sore foot.

The announcer thought that Grimes had just checked in when he had actually played the previous 7 minutes. He’s low impact, from what I’ve seen.

Simms has not impressed me at all. Not Jericho.

Wow, Rokas again. Nice fake and midrange shot.

Obi is big but plays small.