Here’s a new thread as we watch the young ‘Bockers take on the Pistons’ new rookies, Cade Cunningham and Luke Garza and sophomores Saddiq Bey and Killian Hayes.
Come on, Wayne Selden!
Here’s a new thread as we watch the young ‘Bockers take on the Pistons’ new rookies, Cade Cunningham and Luke Garza and sophomores Saddiq Bey and Killian Hayes.
Come on, Wayne Selden!
336 replies on “Knicks Take on Cade Cunningham and Luke Garza as Summer League Continues”
Rokas has looked good so far.
yeah…the Lithuanian guy has some skillz…
Obi is bad, but we might have something in Rokas?
Obi really doesn’t have a clue, does he?
Give me Sims over Simms any day of the week.
quickly ain’t a point guard…we should nip that experiment in the bud…
Grimes locking Cade down
Signs of life from Grimes and Joku! Fun to see
Grimes kind of grows on you. Tenacious defense and a nice stroke.
IQ has to stop relying on that floater from the top of the key.
I guess Deuce will have to change his name to Nil
Deuce should be running the offense and IQ should be mostly shooting threes. IQ isn’t a point guard.
Frank would have shut Cade down
Looks like Obi had a helluva 2nd half at least.
Grimes looked pretty good, too.
what happened to the folks who keep the floor dry…in most of the summer league games I’ve seen there’s been at least a few dangerous slips in each…
c’mon nba, turn up the air and hire some folks to keep the court safe…
I think I saw quik go to the rim once with his left hand, garza blocked his shot pretty easy though…
I still think we are making a mistake letting him walk when we could probably get him for the same price as Vildoza (who is going to add nothing to this team). With Kemba, Fournier, and Randle there are now lineups where you can stick Frank in the corner to take an occasional 3, get his defense, and lose almost nothing on offense. You couldn’t do that with Bullock and Payton.
I hope he at least winds up somewhere he fits like Dallas, Golden State, Brooklyn etc.. He belongs in the NBA not in France.
Thanks for the new thread, Brian!
I think that makes 3 games for Rokas, so he’s back to Spain barring any unforeseen cuts.
He’s played well in his limited minutes. Definitely has a shot at being a rotation player.
Frank in 4 seasons and over 4,000 minutes has a shooting slash line of .366/.328/.749 and has accumulated NEGATIVE win shares. Forget the NBA he doesn’t even belong in France.
Obi looked great when he didn’t have to dribble more than once but a lot of that was at the five against Garza.
Grimes’ Bball IQ looks high we’ll see if that’s enough to overcome the athletic shortcomings.
Everyone else tonight, yuck.
Yup. I arrest my case. I counted at least three blocks on that that side of the hoop. Story of the game. It makes the rest of the game harder for him and the team. I love the kid. I Think he’ll get time this year but he’s a secondary playmaker. Nothing people haven’t been saying but this is why. NO LEFT HAND. Attainable skill though I think
Cade couldn’t miss from 3
IQ was off
McBride was WAY off
Grimes looked better
Obi had a very nice game on both ends
Joku was fine
Final score was misleading, good ol’fashioned Knicks fake comeback
I kind of like the fact that Joku was so nervous in that first game that he literally couldn’t dribble. Since then he’s looked like feisty guy who can shoot a bit. My guess is he’s here next year but no idea if he’ll be rotation worthy then (or ever really).
Cade looks real.
IQ couldn’t hit the broad side of a barn.
Obi was a stud.
Deuce and Grimes can play defense.
Joku is a good stash – may never play in the NBA.
The Knicks missed Simms.
Seldon will help some team.
Jericho was sorely missed tonight!
Abysmal shooting night from Deuce and IQ (I’m starting to hate that f****** floater).
Nice game for Obi (but he still flies on pump fakes),
Rokas has a chance (not now), after a bad start in his first game he slowly gained confidence and showed hints of good things.
Grimes is steady, good D tonight on Cunningham, good shooting form, a fantastic pass for an Obi’s dunk. He looks potentially like a solid all-around player and the kind that Thibs could love.
Well, got a feel for the game by your comments, so thanks guys. 🙂
Only got a little confused because i was just getting ready to trade Obi, and then after the 2nd half it’s better to keep him after all. LOL
One of Deuce’s bricks must have hit the KB server…
Grimes looked much more promising last night.
And the best part of Obi’s game was how diversified it was on offense. The foul line jumper, the post moves, etc. There were a lot of tricks he didn’t seem to have in his bag a year ago.
Obi is going to be best used off the ball, the jumper & 3pt shooting is promising. Hopefully we can get him more looks going towards the hoop this year.
Anyone else find it odd that Sims was held out for “rest”? We sure have a lot of big men and assets right now that could be used to acquire someone like Myles Turner.
Didn’t see the game, and of course it’s Summer League, and of course it’s Obi, but nice line:
31 points on 13-for-20 shooting with nine rebounds, three steals and two blocks.
Raven, here are the Obi highlights. With the “It’s Summer League” caveat, his repertoire looked really good.
The skills needed to be a pg:
Speed, quick first step
Ambidexterity: Dribble and finish with both hands
On time passes with perfect aim (also both hands)
High Outside FG%
Ability to draw fouls
High FT %
Coach on the floor (run plays)
Ability to stop players with similar skills
Hardest position in basketball? I’d vote yes.
So, Z-Man (or anyone). You ever seen any great PG that lacked any of that? Mark Jackson once bragged on TV that he never took a lefty layup in his whole career and he’s 4th in assists all time. Not terrible stats from him 33% from 3. 44% FG and 8 ast. He always seemed a limited player though and I wonder if his stuff would play at all in the modern league.
Seems like you can lack a key skill at other positions (like Steve Novak) but not at PG.
Hopefully the second half won’t be the peak of Obi’s professional career.
I find Garza kind of intriguing. Seems like a guy who might have a long low wattage career.
Alan, thanks for that. I loved that first dunk, it looks like he was just floating through the air from the foul line.
I really really want to be optimistic about Obi, but I just have the feeling when he gets back to playing against real NBA defenses, we’re gonna see the same old tentative, awkward Obi.
How would you answer the question: what is Obi good at? (please don’t answer “dunking”)
We knew what Obi’s skills were coming to the NBA. He’s good in transition and can overpower most younger players. That’s what he’s doing in summer league, but NBA caliber players take a lot of that away. I’m rooting for him, but he has to keep expanding his game and show he can do some of these things against the big boys.
There’s probably a prerequisite baseline skillset but it’s more a matter of the blend of skills that makes a guy able to handle lead guard responsibilities. There’s so many versions of successful lead guards who are mediocre at one of the skills you listed but still carved out good to great careers in the NBA. You have to be able to score reasonably effectively in some way, you have to have a high enough B-Ball IQ to read the game at a high level and make your teammates better, and you have to be physically capable of playing the position after NBA defenses have scouted you and know your weaknesses. You can mask one glaring weakness but not several. Theres always several glaring holes that explain why the Jonny Flynns, Josh Selbys. DSjrs, Jimmer Fredettes, Frank Ntilikinas etc. don’t have a place as a PG in the NBA.
Frank in 4 seasons…….blah blah blah
Role, teammates, coaching, and system all matter.
We know he can’t play PG or create efficiently off the dribble at this stage, but the coaches we’ve had prior to this year kept trying to turn him into a PG creating off the dribble.
He shot fine from 3 this year spotting up and is very good from the corner for his career. That’s what he should have been doing all along. His role at this stage is “plus switchable defender, low usage 3 point shooter, and occasional playmaker”.
That’s not a useful role on a team with combinations of Payton, Bullock, Mitch/Noel, and RJ on the court all the time. There’s not enough shot creation and scoring to add him.
It’s a very useful backup role at a minimum salary when Kemba and Fournier replace Payton and Bullock or on a team with plenty of firepower. His overall stats are beyond misleading.
Obi isn’t great at anything right now but he shows really nice flashes in several areas. He looks terrible when he drives into the teeth of the defense but when he is running the floor or slashing he seems to have some nice ways to score. He is still pretty terrible on D but has made some plays and blocked some shots. I’m going to give him more time before passing judgment.
Obi is good at scoring in a variety of ways… the problem is that those ways generally depend on others setting up those opportunities for him…. he’s not that different from John Collins in that regard only he was probably across the board worse than him even when spotted a couple of years….
he’s talented finishing around the hoop although he’s far from unstoppable… when he catches the ball while he’s moving he has enough athleticism to exploit out of position defenders… that sounds easy but players with inferior athleticism and ball skills tend to struggle even with this… the trick for him is navigating around in position defenders and developing enough of a jumper… as being just an around the rim guy has limited value (e.g brandon clarke.. dwight powell)….
Obi’s sort of on that spectrum now.. he’s probably no better than dwight powell in a lot of respects and it’s absolutely not too late to be significantly better but he needs to keep adding to his game every year and he can’t afford to have another year like last year…
As I celebrate today my 35th year on earth, it strikes me that I have spent well over half of my adult life lurking and trolling this board. I am not sure how I feel about that.
35? Fuck. I woulda thunk 55. You are one of the best here. Your takes do pan out over time. When I wanna know you usually say. Yes, you’ve wasted your life. But I appreciate it.
Gotta say, I really thought Strat might just eventually say something along the lines of “I thought Frank Ntilikina was good, but now that he’s been terrible for four seasons and zero NBA teams have shown interest in him, it appears I was wrong.”
That’s why point guards are (on average) the shortest players
Happy Birthday THCJ! I’ll never forget the one time you praised Melo after his performance in Game 2 at Boston, I’m sure if Ruru was still around he’d wish you a Happy Birthday too.
Happy B’Day, Jowles! 🙂 And i hope you keep trolling people here for many many years! 😉
A linchpin of KB at 35.* The bigger question may be where do you go from here?
* begs the question, how might you have better spent the time than here? ( Big Fish, Big Pond) Happy birthday.
Happy birthday THCJ!
So what about Simmons? Can he overcome his one deficiency and achieve his hall of fame potential?
I don’t get it. Short people are better at hard things?
Happy birthday Jowles!! For better or worse, I’ve been reading your takes here for just about half my life.
Happy birthday Jowles!
Rough night tonight. Knicks Summer League, Jets / Giants pre-season, Yankees vs White Sox – all at the same time.
What to watch? DVRing all 3.
Happy Birthday!! You may be 35 but the from all the pictures you have posted your glutes look 22. Hope you have a great one….
Happy Birthday Jowles! What a coincidence that I chose today to pick up a jug of bleach…
reading…reading…reading…laughing…that was good…
happy b-day jowles 🙂
you got like a “traditional” birthday activity or meal that you partake in?
tell me noble, do you feel compelled to pick up every piece of stray trash you see in the street?
I’d be surprised if strat’s comments surprised you in the least…believe people when they tell you who they are…
not to say strat’s recent take on frank was trash – but, at this point it would be one of the biggest player comebacks in NBA history…
if I was frank’s agent, I’d suggest going to the g-league before going back overseas to play…if he goes overseas he’ll never get on another NBA court…
there’s been a number of centers playing in the summer league that have looked good…
travis or simms haven’t looked very good…it really isn’t that hard though to find a decent skilled back up big man…
Next man up.
And the next man is DEUCE
Man, Deuce might have to go 40…
BTW it’s Magic Johnson’s birthday too. There, Jowles, I set it up on a tee for you…
**Man, Deuce might have to go 40…**
Happy Birthday Jowles
Deuce definitely has a nice shooting touch. Maybe back up a few inches next time.
Obi doesn’t know what he’s doing. He’s all energy.
I miss Joku.
Obi just missed an uncontested dunk. Smh.
Grimey making some nice plays tonight
I like the changes to Obi’s game. His post-up game is much improved and he’s confident with his 3pt shots. I think he’s going to be in the running for MIP on the team.
Nice bounce-back game from Deuce. Neither he nor Grimes have Allan Houston shooting mechanics but the ball comes off well and goes in. Quick releases.
Grimes with the heat check
Stevens for the Cavs is ballin
But Obi still gets duped easily on the defensive end.
yeah…toppin is a fish on defense
Our draft pix are hummin tonight
nice finish to the half…rooks can shoot
Heads up play by Obi not trying to dunk it there
McBride and Grimes are red hot from 3
Who loses PT to McBride?
Deuce and Grimes on fiyah!
nice, started raining buckets there at the end…
Obi’s catch-and-shoot doesn’t look much smoother this year.
Who is MJ Walker?
Grimes has real nice vision
Man, Grimes gets a lot of rebounds for his size.
It’s weird that Grimes has seemed so hot and yet he’s only 5-14 and 3-9 from 3. He’s a good rebounder for a guard for sure.
The Knicks bench is 7-8, all from 3.
Wasn’t he a US Marshal in an old western?
NBADraft.net: Outlook: “There are few guards who are more natural scorers than Walker in the draft class, but there are many who have much more time to develop. Walker’s age and carelessness with the basketball will be the concerns coming from NBA teams heading into the draft”
Lamar Mundane Stevens
Nice power move by Obi
Deuce is a rim protector.
Grimes really has nice touch.
Grimes attacking the rim with force.
McBride is relentless on D
McBride, then Grimes with pressure buckets.
Clutch shot Grimes
The kids can shoot
I like Deuce as our 3rd point guard more than IQ, who should play at the two. Much less turnovers.
I guess the hope from summer league is that you don’t come away saying why the hell did we draft this guy or that guy. All the rookies made a fine accounting of themselves, as did Obi and IQ. There’s gotta be some teams thinking “why did we pass over McBride again?” Still don’t know if the shooting is for real but the defense surely is.
I think the most likely outcome is that both Deuce and Grimes will be with the big team most of the time, with occasional G-League stints possible to get them reps. Barring a trade, of course!
Grimes seems like a more well-rounded Bullock. I’m not sure he’ll ever be a high usage guy but a Bullock who dishes a bit and competes on the glass is a pretty solid starter. But as long as he can shoot he’ll be a decent rotation guy
At this juncture I think the depth chart is like this:
PG: 1) Kemba Walker 2) Derrick Rose 3) Miles McBride 4) Luca Vildoza
SG: 1) RJ Barrett 2) I Quickley 3) Quentin Grimes 4) Rokas Jokubaitis
SF: 1) Evan Fornier 2) Alec Burks 3) Kevin Knox 4) Wayne Seldon
PF: 1) Julius Randle 2) Obi Toppin 3) Taj Gibson 4) Reid Travis
C: 1) Mitch Robinson 2) Nerlens Noel 3) Jericho Sims 4) Justin Patton
That 2nd unit is tough but that 3rd unit can compete.
happy birthday jowles
I’m coming away from summer league a little higher on both McBride and Grimes than I was, but am underwhelmed by Obi’s performance.
Realistically between his age and NBA experience he should be like Shaq out here, but he hasn’t dominated any game besides yesterday’s.
He’s a bit maddening to watch sometimes. It feels like he’s always overthinking what his move should be, and often coming to the wrong decision at that. A lot of attempted layups that should be dunks and vice-versa, ditto for putting the ball on the ground vs shooting, etc.
You get the impression there’s enough talent to work with but he won’t ever quite put it all together. Hope I’m wrong!
I see a lot more confidence and much less hesitation. Different perceptions, I suppose. What I’m seeing is that he’s not hesitating on the catch-and-shoot 3’s and he’s driving hard into the lane, spinning his way, with confidence to the hoop. I would like to see him work on his mid-range game.
Where he falters is on defense where he seems to bite on head fakes and redirections occasionally.
Bullock is more selective with his shots, and very efficient beyond the arc.
Grimes probably won’t have the same 3p%, but I think he’s going to put up a lot more attempts than Bullock ever did. You can see in SL how comfortable he is shooting with a hand in his face or against hard closeouts. Plus, Grimes looks much more comfortable shooting off screens and off the bounce.
Grimes adds a lot more than I thought he would, between his passing & rebounding, but his career is entirely dependent upon how many 3s he can hit while bombing away.
The thing about Obi that turns him into a Rorschach test kind of player, I think, is that there’s a deliberation to his moves that’s much less obvious with, say, RJ. When Obi sets a screen, it’s a mechanical-looking process. When he’s in the corner, you can tell from his body language that he’s debating whether to wait for a pass or flash to the basket. He’s certainly capable of being fluid, but a lot of the time even when he’s playing well and with confidence, it can come across as clumsiness and/or hesitation. Some of it is just the way he’s built, with those stiff hips and the center of gravity, and some of it is that I do think he thinks more out there than other players both good (Rose) and bad (Knox). But once he got past that really dire section of his rookie year where he looked afraid of the game, I don’t think there’s a significant difference between how he carries himself on the nights he plays well and the nights he doesn’t. He’s just never going to look as smooth as other guys, even when the results are good.
I think it’s pretty clear that, although Thibs and company want to develop their players, they are less interested in “projects” than other regimes. We don’t have to hang our hats on, “If player x develops skills a,b,c and d…” McBride and Grimes seem to be what they are ALREADY and that’s fairly polished basketball players ready to help a team. Pretty good for the middle third of the draft…
I think too much is made of Obi’s age. He was a late bloomer in general and still has room to develop. He wasn’t an abject bust last year and played well in his limited role under playoff lights. The 3 looks pretty good. He’s got some post moves against smaller players. He gets out in transition. He slashes well. He’s decent as a lob threat in the PnR. He’s a willing passer. He’s a liability on D but that is mitigated a bit with Noel or Mitch behind him. He’s a little too polite and deferential right now, and I’d like to see a bit more of a mean streak and aggressiveness from him. He showed a bit of that tonight in the low post, backing some smaller guys down to either get to the rim or take a little pull-up banker. He still needs lots of work, especially on the defensive end, but I think expecting more than he delivered in summer league (including outplaying some of his draft peers like Saddiq Bey, Patrick Williams, et. al.), and expecting Shaq-like numbers just because he’s older is not fair.
I surely don’t see a guy worthy of a #8 pick in that draft but I don’t see a Knox-level bust either. At the very least, his summer league performance probably upped his trade value.
Looks like we have one more game on the schedule, Monday @ 7:00 PM vs. ATL…whoch would make us the only team to play 6 games before the “finals” which we will not be in. Honestly, I’d be fine of they stopped right now…we learned what we needed to learn and I would hate to see someone get injured.
They said on the broadcast that this was the last game for them because the Indiana game took the place of the game that was TBA for Monday or Tuesday. But a game against ATL and seeing what could have been our draft would be fun so I hope that’s the case.
I know it’s summer league but it’s pretty clear that McBride and Grimes will be useful players on this squad in whatever minutes they get this year. They showed up on both sides of the ball, not bad for picks 25 and 36.
Obi had some nice moves to the basket, he needs to work on finishing better. On a brighter note his 3 point shot looks improved.
This team is deep!
Happy birthday, THCJ. Nice spot on the calendar. Same bday as my daughter. I hope you had a blast.
Happy birthday Jowles. Did you know that you were born 8 1/2 weeks into the Kenny Walker era in NY?
(Also, if McBride of Frankntilikinastein and Busta Grimes pan out, whatever we get for the 19th pick down the road is just gravy.)
(Just think of all the sex Kim Basinger and Mickey Rourke were having in the interim. Ah, 1986…)
Happy Belated Birthday Jowles
The rookies defend, it’ll be a long season, Kemba and Rose will need rest, Thibs will find minutes for them.
After reading the post draft reports I thought Deuce can be one of the steals of this draft and he sure looks like it.
Also, I wasn’t expecting Grimes to be such a good passer and high BB-IQ guy.
It’s just Summer League, but they don’t remind me of Frank and Knox and for now that’s enough.
If healthy the Knicks are really a deep team.
Much as I would have liked them to take a high-ceiling player with one of their picks, Grimes and McBride both seem like they’ll be useful on nights when the vets need to rest, or just in spot minutes. Grimes’ game has been compared to Bullock’s, but he’s also much more willing to create for himself and others, and more willing to just bomb away than Reggie was. If he can get comfortable with the NBA 3-point line, that’s someone any team could use.
Meanwhile, there’s a rumor floating around that we’re about to trade Mitch, Knox, and a pair of seconds sometime this week for Myles Turner. As Macri pointed out, the math doesn’t work to fit that deal under the cap, even though Burks and Rose technically haven’t re-signed yet. But just for a moment, pretend Brock Aller can pull off some shenanigans to make that happen. How do you feel about the deal? Turner right now is a better defender than Mitch (even if Mitch has more upside on that end) and can shoot from 3 (even though he doesn’t do it much, or incredibly well), but we’d also be devoting a LOT of money over the next two seasons to the modern NBA’s most fungible position.
I can understand the trade from a basketball standpoint,
but Turner’s contract is costly and between him and Noel you’re using 27M of cap space for the next two years on centers (barring another future trade involving one of them).
Aller will have some wizard work to do, according to Spotrac Turner’s cap hit is 18M, Mitch & Knox combined for 7.6M, while releasing Vildoza would put the total to 11M…
But if Brock can do it, I’m okay with the trade, it looks like re-signin Mitch will be pricey and not easy to do, using him as a trade piece could be a better use of assets.
I didn’t watch SL, except for the first game, but it’s very good to hear our rookies are doing OK. Obi still is an enigma, but with Frank out, we needed a player to fill in the role of “he might be good if develops this and that”.
I think right now we have the team GoNY said, except Sims is on a 2-way and Vildoza is on the 15-man roster. Our roster is full, but there’s 2 spots up for grabs (Vildoza and Knox) for training camp, i think. If they can improve those 2 spots, they will do it.
Happy birthday THCJ first off…
I wouldn’t want to rush a Mitch trade. If it’s there now it will be there for the first half of the season.
I’m a fan of Mitch, but i’m also a big fan of Turner, i think he is underrated, with Thibs he can be DPOY, all while giving us much more on offense than Mitch and Noel do. Of course, Noel will be trade bait if we grab Turner, we can’t have that much money wasted on the C position. But as Turner is very good, we all know Thibs will play him north of 30 mins, right?
The math don’t work, that’s for sure, even with the 125% on the 11M Max pointed (Mitch+Knox+Vildoza), we only get to 13.7M. So there’s 2 scenarios where it works, we also send Obi, but that is only possible if they feel good about getting a backup PF with the room exception. Or there’s a trade exception from Reggie, the Mavs didn’t disclose any details on the signing so it can still be the case, and then Noel or Burks won’t count against the cap because it’ll use the trade exception.
Bite your tongue, Cyber! I still can’t quit Frank, and even I know that Obi at worst will be a rotation big in the league for a while. There are too many things he’s already clearly good at, whereas with Frank, even the defense was hypothetical a lot of the time. The mystery with Obi isn’t whether he can stick in the league, but whether he’ll live up to his draft status (and particularly to being taken over Hali).
Agreed. But we’re getting good, so our “if he develops this and that” guys are also getting better. A guy like Frank would last one season with Thibs. 😉
I don’t usually read Daily Knicks posts, because a lot of it are pretty dumb takes, and the trade proposals are even worse. LOL
But today this article caught my attention, they are pissed about RJ missing the TheAthletic’s Top125, and frankly they are right this time.
I don’t think comparing Obi to Hali is particularly useful, since it was nearly unanimous here that Hali would be a better pick. For me, the only remaining question is where Obi’s ceiling is. I don’t see “all-star” at all. Maybe solid rotation player on a good team. Like a TH2-level player. If he could justify a mid-teems contract when his rookie deal expires, that would be a win for me, even if Hali goes on to be a max player. I don’t think Obi ever sniffs Julius/Sabonis territory, but can he be Chriatian Wood? John Collins? KP (lol)?
I hope I’m wrong and that he actually does become an all-nba guy, just not seeing any path there with his current issues.
It’s refreshing to have a situation where guys on rookie deals actually have to develop to earn playing time and be considered part of the future. It creates a sense of urgency when you know that if you don’t improve and contribute to winning, you won’t play and aren’t long for the team. Think about how badly Obi wants to make it here in NY where his family lives. I can’t imagine that he isn’t putting 110% into improving. I’m betting that the other rooks, and IQ and RJ, are in the gym non-stop from now until training camp with a clarity of vision that they would have if we were still losing and had some scrub coach.
I saw a kid on the dunes yesterday morning in a Celtic jersey. I asked, “Who’s number 8?” and he said “Kemba Walker.” Brand new jersey, practically. I said, “Well, you got Pritchard”. He was like, “(sigh) Yeah, he’s OK”
I love the balance we have between young players and veterans. We have a pretty good team and a lot of youthful upside. That’s exactly what you want. I don’t think we could be handling that aspect of team building any better than we are right now.
I wish Rokas Jokubaitis was going to hang around because I think he looked pretty good, but there’s a limit to how many young players we can have at then end of the bench when you are trying to compete for a playoff spot too.
Here’s a rosy take on the current Knicks FO by former KB author David Vertsberger. My favorite line:
Happy belated to THJC. Even though you are much younger, I feel like I have learned a lot about the game from you.
I think GoNY hit the depth chart nail on the head. RJ will probably have to take the tougher defensive assignment whether it be 2 or 3.
I also think Obi can play some 3, especially offensively. I don’t think he has a position that he can defend, but could be an effective offensive weapon at 3 or 4.
Didn’t Turner tear his achilles? I would need to see him play before feeling good about any trade. If he’s healthy then, I would reluctantly be ok with trading Mitch and whatever else for him.
I wonder how much the team is going to utilize the G-League for the rookies this year. Steve Mills seemed very reluctant to send prospects to Westchester to get some run, and last year IQ and Obi were both part of the big league rotation from the beginning of the season, so there was no need to get them minutes elsewhere. I expect one or both of McBride and Grimes to play when other guys rest — the McBride vs. Grimes priority will depend, I guess, on whether the team considers IQ the third-string point guard, or solely as a wing — but there may be stretches where they’re not playing at all, and it may do everyone some good to get them some run over in Westchester.
I don’t see Obi as particularly mysterious. He’s a terrific athlete and plays with a ton of energy. Those attributes will get him some easy baskets. But he would do best on a team that runs a lot where he can get an extra transition basket here or there even at the NBA level.
He doesn’t have many other skills.
He’s not a plus defender. He’s not a plus shooter. He doesn’t handle the ball well or create efficiently off several dribbles. He’s a little out of control sometimes. He’s going to get better as he settles down and figures out what he should and should not do, but he’s going to have to add a skill or two be a “good” NBA player.
The thing is, he’s not a teenager that was drafted 2-3 years early and a project coming in. I’m not so sure how much more upside there can be, but adding a consistent 3 and settling down would help. He’s going to get minutes in NY because this management team drafted him with high hopes and they haven’t even tried to find a better backup PF. So hopefully he’ll use that opportunity.
I’m guessing a lot. The G-League was not even a thing last year. The Westchester Knicks played 15 games compaed to the normal 50. Thibs specifically said that players need to play to develop, and the G-League was an important part of that.
The NBA is saturated with rotation-level talent due to non-expansion, and some studs are opting for G-League over colleger, so the dropoff in quality is not what it was 5-10 years ago. I might try to go to some games, being that it’s 12 minutes away from my house.
I really want to see Mitch this season. He’s bulked up big time (gaining 30 lbs of muscle) and by the time training camp opens he should be 100%. I can’t help thinking what could have been with him in the playoffs. He’s such a difference maker. But a healthy Turner is quite tempting.
I’ve seen enough guys substantially improve between 22-26 for me to discount this line of thinking. Even though guys like Obi are pretty much a finished product physically, learning to play in the NBA takes time, especially if you’ve developed bad habits by physically dominating scrubs in college as he has. Younger picks are almost always all upside and no one can predict where their development can top out. Yet look at De’Andre Hunter, who was bad at age 22, and looked like a stud last year except for injury. Christian Wood. FVV. OTOH, Marvin Bagley III still sucks. Mo Bamba hasn’t developed, in part but not entirely due to injury.
I still think that Obi at $5-6 million will be at worst reasonably good value for the next 3 years and maybe will be worthy of an extension in his prime. Who knows whether the young guys picked around him–Okoro, Okongwu, Hayes, Avdija or Smith will develop or top out? I’m not sure I would trade Obi for any of them rigth now.
Mitch hasn’t really lived up to the first year hype he generated. His flakiness probably rubs Thibs the wrong way. I’d hate to dump him, but Turner has 2 years left on a reasonable deal and Mitch is a UFA after this year so whatever they do is fine by me.
I’m really curious how Mitch looks this season but I’m not sure I’d say no to the trade. I have a question for the Capologists out there. Since Mitch is our own draftee can’t we renegotiate and extend him even if it puts us over the cap? If we did that then he could be earning enough to make the math work in a Turner trade.
Thanks all for the kind words, about 2% of which were deserved.
Since 2016 I have been having Sunday dinner with my wife’s sister’s family, and every year I pick a new kind of fried chicken to make. My favorite so far was the black sesame seed buttermilk biscuits with Korean fried chicken (kimchi liquid, gochugaru and gochujang in the wet brine, among other things) with a spicy kimchi coleslaw on top. Another big winner was double-fried Southern-style chicken and waffles. Lady J’s waffle game is top-notch, so it was just a winning combination. Butter and honey for days.
Last night we did a fancy restaurant here in town with all the (really odd) wine pairings (like, smoky Oregon wine? A Turkish semi-sweet dessert wine? the fuck?) on top of morning waffles, so I’m limiting myself to a pretzel-bagel bacon, egg and cream cheese until tonight’s buttermilk biscuits, double-fried chicken, garlicky slaw and some kind of peach/blackberry crisp that my sister-in-law, every bit the lady-mensch as Lady Jowles, plans to shove into my gullet.
Owen, I have been annoying the older guys in my tennis league by revealing my actual age. I think they’d prefer that I actually be the 23-year-old they assume I am, instead of the now-35-year-old who dices them up with superior conditioning. I read all the words — thanks everyone. And Early Bird, the answer is: for the worse.
Hey Jowles, are you and Lady Jowles are entertaining the thought of having some little Jowles’s? You’re probably around that magic number…wise enough to be a good parent, young enough to not have teenagers in your 60s. And with a much better probability of raising Knicks fans who root for a contender…although raising Knicks fans is not consistent with good parenting!
Forget positions. Frank is not good at basketball. Otherwise, he’s fine.
if we ‘re going to surprise the league, fans and exceed expectations this year again, what’s the likeliest thing to happen?
a) RJ drops 22pts a game and makes all-star team
b) Kemba drops 20pts, 9 assist a game and makes all-star team
c) Mitch dominates the middle with 4 dunks, 4 blocks and 12 rebounds a game
d) our bench has the highest offensive rating in the league
e) DRose makes 4 game winning shots.
I’m not sure what line of thinking your are discounting because I didn’t say he wasn’t going to develop. It’s a probability and extent thing.
I’ve been one of the strongest advocates of giving players more time to develop, but clearly you are more likely to improve if you come in as a raw, underweight, immature etc.. 19 year old with a strong worth ethic than if you come in as a mature 22 year old. That’s why all else being equal, teams prefer to draft younger.
Setting aside who is better or who is going to be better, when Knox came into the NBA his body literally looked like he was 16-17 years old. I have no idea where his ultimate top is, but I’m almost certain he’s not done getting stronger and developing further. Obi is going to get better too, but there’s a difference between Knox as a rookie and Obi as a rookie. A really stiff wind could still knock Knox over. lol . Obi is a year older and physically further along.
RJ’s going to average 19.5 and just miss out on the all-star voting because RJ just misses out on every possible accolade. Kemba will drop 20 and 9 but only in 55 games and not make the all-star game. Mich can’t average that because Noel, but I could see him doing that per 40, which would be very cool. I kind of like (d), and (e) is certainly possible as he’ll likely close a lot of games.
The problem with Knox is that he did get substantially better and was still one of the worst players in the league.
As soon as we’re bored of having a ton of money, freedom and time to do whatever we want whenever we want
My birthday is this week, if anyone cares:)
I’ll be celebrating today because chemo falls out on the actual date.
Happy early birthday Dude!
Happy early birthday, Dude!!!
Man fuck off it’s not your day yet
Also I sincerely hope it’s nice and that treatment goes as well as it can
This is like when Ajax the Lesser stood on the rock and audaciously declared he could escape the wrath of the gods.
Happy birthday, Jowles! Expect a surprise soon 🙂
And happy early birthday to Dude.
Haha! Best birthday salutation ever.
Thanks to all.
I think he was living up to it when he got hurt. But his FA status is a factor and so is Miles Turner. I don’t think Turner is worth more than Mitch in a straight-up deal.
Happy early birthday, Dude!
Yeah, I think about that from time to time…like every day. Definitely not for everyone.
Maybe I’m alone in feeling that Mitch has been a huge disappointment compared to what I expected during his rookie year, but between his injuries, flakiness, expiring contract, and lack of offensive development, I’m pretty ambivalent about trading him in a fair value deal. All things equal, I’d rather keep him in the hope that he finally puts a 2000+ minute season together, but not expecting much change.
Happy Birthday Dude and best of everything with the treatments. Hope you’re back in top form by preseason!
No, he wouldn’t. There’s a limit in the amount you can increase his previous salary, for him to be available in a extension-and-trade.
Here are the rules:
Happy birthday Dude, and, more imprtantly, happy Chemotherapy.
Jowles, even though your birthday is so yesterday, Happy Belated!
And Dude, all the very best. You rock.
look dude, you’ve become “the” dude 🙂
how are you feeling?
That’s a weird trade…
Haha! Best birthday salutation ever.
Thanks to all.
I feel absolutely horrible for the first 3 days after treatment, then it improves to terrible for another week. It then goes to meh for for about 6 days, followed by excellent for the last 5 days. Then rinse and repeat. I’m in the 5 day excellent phase right now, so thanks!
I’m not gonna lie: I completely slept on Cam Thomas during the draft lead up and didn’t bother to form an opinion on him. He looks really damn good in summer league.
Cam Thomas was my choice as the 19th pick. ZMan is my witness.
Affirmative. I liked him too.
I wouldn’t have minded Thomas with one of our picks. We got several other well-rounded prospects in Grimes and McBride (and maybe Rokas?), may as well have gone for a dude who could just get buckets.
I am very happy with Grimes and even though I had Thomas rated slightly higher at draft time, I like what I’ve seem from Grimes as a mulridimensional player and would probably take him over Thiomas in a redraft. Maybe there’s some endowment effect in play here, but hey, we could have had Thomas, Grimes and McBride, so there’s that.
Happy birthdays and tiny American flags for all!
I hate when great teams get bailed out of their tax issues like the Grizzlies just did with the Clippers.
Is this all about the JJJ extension?
Happy birthday Dude!!!
Jowles, I didn’t want to be the one to say it 😉 but it sure beats Ruru posting for the last x years
I read that it gives the Grizzlies more flexibility to create cap space next summer if they want it.
Do we have a game on Monday or don’t we?
I think it’s just about cap room period, but still, ugh. The Clippers now have a big trade exception, too!
considering the clippers love to trade with us, that exception might be a good thing for the Knicks. They have given us 4 or 5 surplus draft picks the last few years.
I kinda like the creative capology, and am good with anything that makes teams in the WC more competitive with the Lakers.
This NBA season is gonna be a bloodbath. so may strong rotations leaguewide.
Before it’s all over I think he’ll be a rotation player on a good team. It probably just won’t be for us. We never keep anyone we draft. We draft projects and then trade them before they are any good and can contribute. I suspect the reason he was scheduled to play summer league was to showcase him for a trade and show the league he still has a chance to be pretty good player. There was no other reason for him to play summer league. That may even be the real reason he backed out.
Yes. It’s Knicks vs. Hawks at 7:00 pm ET.
Strat, do you take a bet on Knox being a “pretty good player” in the NBA? ;D
The chances are slim to none, so trading him or letting him go is a good move.
He got Covid man
Porzingis, Frank, Knox — there’s a pattern here, and it’s, “Only I can see the future.”
I’m kind of excited to see McBride vs Cooper tonight. That could be a nice showcase for Deuce’s defensive prowess if they’re matched up.
His heart isn’t really in it with the Knox stuff. He just knows it looks inconsistent if he doesn’t cape for every draft bust.
Knox can shoot and he’s tall. I expect some other team to take a flier on him next season, and I wouldn’t be surprised if he eventually turns out to have a Novak-ian career where he’s usually on the outer edges of a rotation, but occasionally has seasons where he plays a ton and is effective in a deliberately limited role. But whatever the hell David Fizdale saw in that 3-on-3 scrimmage is never gonna materialize here in the NBA.
And the game is on NBA TV
Just get yourself better!
In 2019/20, the last full year for Knox, he was 192nd out of 195 qualifying players in TS% with 47.0%
In 2020/21, if Knox played enough to qualify, he would be 156th out of 189 players in TS% with 53.7%
He did improve with limited playing time but in the end, Landry Fields will have had a better career than him.
Happy (Belated) Birthday, Jowles!
Sorry, I’m late…sort of skimming through the threads these days while the Mets fade and the Jets gear up.
Kevin Knox needs to get with Julius Randle’s trainer this summer — or start packing his backs for Europe/China.
And yes, happy birthday to all the mugging Leos out there, since constant recognition is the only thing that pleases you anyway!
Kevin Knox was named to the All-NBA Summer League First Team after averaging 21.3 points, 6.5 rebounds and 2.3 assists over four games.
6:33 PM · Jul 17, 2018·Twitter for iPhone.
Picking All-Stars and top 10 superstars is statistically very very difficult. So much easier to just sign them.
Strengths: Creative, passionate, generous, warm-hearted, cheerful, humorous
Weaknesses: Arrogant, stubborn, self-centered, lazy, inflexible
Leo likes: Theater, taking holidays, being admired, expensive things, bright colors, fun with friends
Leo dislikes: Being ignored, facing difficult reality, not being treated like a king or queen
i had one of those birthday things a couple of weeks ago…birthdays and holidays – just another day…my general birthday wish, sit in the house by myself, eat pizza and have a soda…
yeah baby, let the good times roll…
where are you from dude?
i’ve always found it interesting out here in california that when you ask someone how they are – you almost always get the “everything is great” reply, whereas when you ask a new yorker how they are – you get more of the truth, you get the good and bad…
i appreciate you sharing what you’re going through…
i have to imagine this is one of the more significant events which you’ve experienced in life…when you’re faced with serious health concerns, it can be pretty intense…i’m sure you’re doing it already, but, just keep putting the work in…no doubt things aren’t very easy for you right now, but, try to stay as positive as possible…and, if it’s your thing – pray for strength…
You guessed it, geo. I’m from New York.
***Before it’s all over I think he’ll [Knox] be a rotation player on a good team. It probably just won’t be for us. We never keep anyone we draft. We draft projects and then trade them before they are any good and can contribute.***
You are very consistent with your individual takes, but they seem thoroughly inconsistent with the off-site character you paint yourself as. For example, you make grand statements about rookie development, seemingly without looking at any data, which is not a standard practice for professional gamblers. For example, do you know how many recent lottery picks that were jettisoned by their first team went on to become rotation players of any significance in the NBA? It’s not that hard to look up. I’ll even list all of the choices from 2006-2016 for you:
This would be Kevin Knox’s company if the Knicks cut bait.
And what projects have the Knicks drafted and traded “before they were good”? Shumpert? Jordan Hill? Porzingis? That’s all the choices from the past 15 years. And, not insignicantly, none of them actually, you know, improved. In fact, you have to go all the way back to Trevor Ariza to find a project the Knicks drafted and traded before he “became good”.
it’s funny, between being a leo (hubris galore) and being a new yorker (hubris galore – with an edge to it) it’s nearly impossible for us to be anything but open and honest 🙂
That pick was great and at the time i felt like Isiah was a genius as he could find gems later in the draft (pick forty something). I think that was Isiah’s first draft, but from there it was all downhill.
Trevor Ariza for Steve Francis, will always remember the press conference after that trade when I think it was Larry Brown talking about Marbury and Francis being the new Clyde and Pearl. Those were the days….
Some love for IQ and Obi from Sam Vecenie. The only particularly interesting part to me was the analysis of Obi’s usage patterns in summer league compared to the regular season, but worth the quick read.
Well, they did trade away THJ for Jerian Grant, and then paid him $71M to come back. And then he wasn’t any good, and got traded away again as a salary dump to “lessen” the blow of “losing” Porzingis. Haha, priceless. But that wasn’t Leon Rose, so I’m accepting it as the past.
By the end of his current contract, THJ will have been paid about $170M to play NBA basketball and he only will be 33 years old. Crazy.
Isn’t it fair to say that TH Jr actually earned that contract? He did just re-sign for the same exact figure at a later age. And he’s got to be on par with, if not better than, Fournier.
It’s shocking to say this, but Steve Mills’ tenure doesn’t look all too terrible. His biggest blunder was Fizdale, and it was an irredeemable blunder. It was a compounding blunder, too, if Fizdale was indeed behind the second biggest blunder: drafting Knox. So I have not come here to stan for Mills.
But you know how Strat always says Phil Jackson left behind a good situation? Steve Mills actually did do that. He brought in 80% of last year’s starting lineup for under $30mm total, he left us with surplus draft picks and zero bad contracts.
Don’t get me wrong, I still would have fired him. But time has been kind to most of his moves.
Comedy of errors, for sure. But Hardaway wasn’t really a “project”. He played three years at a top college program and was 21.5 when he entered the league.
I think if anyone should get credit for Mills’ late career mediocrity it probably ought to be Perry and likely some anonymous types in the FO. Who the hell knows .I am definitely not giving Mills any credit though.
Mills had no idea how to negotiate and was constantly bidding against himself. Perry is guilty of loving his own mistakes. I don’t think either of them, together or alone, could ever get out of their own way. They didn’t go scorched earth like Isiah or pass along an unrecoverable disaster but it took less than a year for a novice like Leon to do more positive stuff than they did in their entire tenures.
Also, I enjoyed Pop’s tasteful use of profanity.
IMO Hardaway is basically still the same player he always was. IMO he’s still significantly overpaid.
The major difference is that in NY he was the #2 option behind Porzingis. He was given the green light because they needed someone else to score. That was asking way too much. In Dallas they don’t ask him to create as much. He plays off Doncic, gets better looks, and they have him on a tighter leash unless he’s having one of his hot games. He’s still a 6th man masquerading as a 3rd option in Dallas. They made a mistake paying him that much.
Let’s not forget Mills and Perry hired Keith Smart.
I didn’t comment on any of the guys you listed. I commented on Knox and often still comment on Frank.
Knox was 19 going on 16 when he joined the Knicks. I didn’t like the pick (wanted Mikal), but that’s besides the point. The point I am making is that if you went to one Knicks game and saw him as a rookie you’d know it was going to take quite a few years for him to fill out, mature, and reach his peak. But again, most likely he’ll become a rotation player for another team because we’ll give up on him.
Frank was 19 going on 14 (lol) when we drafted him. But with him the problem was mostly maturity and horrible development. Aside from the fact that I think he’s underrated because people focus too much attention on boxscore stats and not enough on role, potential role, defense, and teammates, I still think he’ll be a very useful 3&D player someday when he grows up. lol But he’s already gone.
I’ve been guessing for a few months that our current project (Mitch) may be out the door next.
I’m even willing to throw KP into the conversation. He was a 7’3″ Knox. He was another obvious multi year project that everyone gave up on WAY before he was likely to reach his peak even if he never had any injuries.
With him, it always was and still is entirely about injury risk and his ability to get into and stay in top condition and play 36 productive minutes on both sides for enough games to be worth the money. It remains a risk, but he was a LOT better on offense last year and I suspect will come to camp in shape for the first time in a long time next season. We’ll see if the spit and glue holds him together.
how the fuck you like us now bitches
that’s some classic stuff right there…
the whole Fizdale fiasco paints the whole Mills tenure in a negative light… just like the thibs hire for rose probably gives him more credit than he deserves… but if you look at it.. it wasn’t that bad:
TH2 deal – probably an example of wrong player wrong time… since he kind of worked out for Dallas… if we were a better team where he was on a lesser role he probably would’ve been good.. just not on a bad team like ours with an expanded role…
KP trade – although right now it’s looking like just a salary cap dump since we evaporated one of the picks into the ether… but not having KP on a max deal alone was good… this may have been an example of KP making the decision for us but the deal was good although maybe it was possible to extract more in return….
Ron Baker – bad.. very bad
Melo trade – return was deece for what Melo was…. applauded then and in hindsight…
Wily trade – we actually got a good haul in hindsight when there was some controversy in trading him before he got play time… but seems like him and his brother haven’t improved on anything since making the association… the terrible part is that one of the picks we got was also evaporated last year so we didn’t actually get anything in return yet…
Fizdale – the only thing worse than this was also letting Keith Smart in any of our facilities….
the draft – Kevin Knox was quite possibly the worst draft pick we’ve made since Frederick Weis…. the Robinson pick almost makes up for it if you want to switcheroo the picks but considering the long line of starters following this pick it was just an egregious mistake… RJ was a great pick to make at the time and we are
Randle signing – at that stage in our win curve we should’ve been gambling on guys like this…. and we did.. and we got rewarded handsomely…
other signings – Bobby Portis and Morris proved to be key rotation pieces to contenders… Taj obv still had something left…
But how did this manifest itself? The usual example was Tim Hardaway. Looking back, that really wasn’t a bad contract.
The Hardaway contract, in hindsight, was fair.
The Baker contract was stupid but inconsequential.
The contracts for Morris, Ellington, and Bullock were very good.
The Randle contract was outstanding.
The Portis & Gibson contracts were excessive but not egregious. They’re decent players.
Knox & Fizdale. Those two blunders did him in — and rightfully so. But he did leave this team better than he found it.
Strat, genuine question, let’s say Frank either doesn’t get an NBA contract at all, or gets a minimum deal and barely plays. It’s getting pretty hard to see any scenario other than those two.
What will you take away from that?
***But again, most likely he’ll become a rotation player for another team because we’ll give up on him.***
Most likely he will not become a rotation player for another team, based on historical,precedence. The sample size of 19 year old in the league is not small. The ones that are bad at 19 often improve. The ones that are still bad at 20 are less likely to. The ones that are still bad at 21 don’t become rotation players, either for their drafting team or for other teams. That’s why I provided the list for you.
Maybe Knox and Ntilikina were uniquely “younger than their actual ages”, and both somehow ended up on the Knicks because #lolknicks or something, and will buck history and somehow both come of age before flying overseas for work. But, as a betting man, would you REALLY put money behind it, especially knowing that it’s never happened before?
***But [Mills] did leave this team better than he found it.***
Back when this blog started, there were 7 year max contracts (Jamal Crawford) and a much smaller salary cap to work within. No contract is un-moveable anymore (Eddy Curry), and lottery protections are the rule rather than the exception. So it is now virtually impossible to screw a team long-term like Isiah did.
Phil Jackson and Steve Mills did a bad job of running the team. It took way too long to emerge from the mire. Competent management during their tenures would have had the team in a better place today than it is, and the fact that Leon Rose turned the team around in just a few months illustrates just how far a semi-reasonable plan can get you in the post 2011 NBA.
Grimes is feeling it.
Jalen Johnson not playing is great news for people who don’t like to read complaints about the 19th overall pick.
Helluva start huh?
Sims for the slam!
Just a ridiculous dunk by Jericho Sims!
That was a Sportscenter slam if I ever saw one.
Grimes’ confidence growing with every game.
And Sims with the dunk and the block on the other side.
And Deuce is feeling it too.
It’s only the 1st quarter and we already have one “ackward Obi” highlight! ;D
Quickley’s better start hitting shots or Deuce’s gonna steal some of his minutes….
That playing time stats made me laugh, we ride our starters even in summer league! 🙂
IQ with a dumb turnover. He’s not a point guard.
McBride and Grimes are leading the Knicks. IQ with a rough start.
Deuce can really shoot.
Gotta go now, tomorrow i’ll check what happened by your comments. See ya! 🙂
Sims is a man among boys.
Goodnight Cyber 🙂
IQ is 0-fer
Deuce is on fire
Grimes with a great pass to Obi
IQ with a terrible first half.
For what it’s worth, McBride has objectively been one of the best rookies in summer league.
Agree. I really like McBride as our 3rd point guard.
I dare anyone to try to kick sand on Jericho Sims.
20 yard completion, Quickly to Grimes over the middle.
Deuce can jump too!
Well this is becoming a summer league all timer
This summer league team is whetting my appetite for training camp. This might be a very deep team.
IQ: 0 for 9
Obi: 3 for 9
Grimes: 6 for 9
Deuce: 7 for 9
This is another data point for the “Deuce McBride is good” argument.
Deuce McBride with 19… he can really be a steal.
Quickley 0-9 (but 5 assists), he has shot really bad in this SL.
Grimes with 16 and a lot of good plays.
Sims is a grasshopper on steroid.
Hey, the old guys are tired!
Another great pass from IQ to Grimes…
I’m glad IQ is having his shooting slump now 🙂
or it shows that, you know, Mills actually got some good guys in here and was just a good coaching hire away from success.
I’m not saying Mills should’ve stayed. I’m glad he was fired for so many reasons. I just think his record of player and asset acquisition looks pretty good in hindsight.
I like Marcus Smart just fine but I would not want that contract on our books
Grimes lost an assist thanks to Simms (double “M”),
IQ is now 0-11 (0-9 from three)… we’ve seen this before…
Boston’s paying a lot for Smart’s intangibles…
IQ: 1 for 14. Shades of John Starks
Channing Frye might be high as a kite (I hope so for his sake), but he’s making me laugh.
Grimes can definitely shoot the 3.
Is that a bong under the broadcast table?
I could watch Knicks Summer League all year long
Knicks are just breaking hearts and whipping booties in Summer League.
A little Double M showing in this one
We thrashed the Hawks. I don’t care if it’s August.
is dropping Dimes
His game is prime.
McBride looks really solid and after a slow start, Grimes found his stroke. Two rooks if anything look like they belong.
I would like to see Jericho Sims in the dunk contest and win it ala Dwight Howard. That man got some hops on him
IQ final line: 3-18. Thank god is summer league…
McBride can defend, can shoot and can pass too!
Grimes is already better than Bullock (I’m joking… but he’ll be in due time).
Aamir Simms is big.
Summer league hype!
i like to rhyme!
Am I the only one who sees a lot of Alan Houston in Grimes’ game?
***or it shows that, you know, Mills actually got some good guys in here and was just a good coaching hire away from success.***
Sure, it does show that, if you want to be forgetful of process and historical context. He put a few long-ish term pieces on the roster. So did every other GM/President during that time. When Mills took over full duties from Jackson there were 4 teams with worse records than the Knicks: the Lakers, the Sixers, the Nets, and the Suns. Now, check the current betting lines for this upcoming season:
To say that Steve Mills was just a coaching hire away from success really downplays how bad Mills was as a basketball executive. And it downplays the relative success of all of his peers during that time. Sure, he didn’t blow every decision he was presented with. Neither did Layden, Isiah, Walsh, Grunwald, and Jackson. But the net negatives so heavily outweigh the positives, that it’s hard to believe that somebody would revisit this with a straight hind-sighted face. (And that’s just focusing on his basketball related moves. Never mind the Dolan fluffing, the toxic work culture, and the sexual harassment lawsuit losing process that put the team in the mire in the first place, never to emerge from until he was finally and safely ushered out of the corporate office.)
McBride had Sharife Cooper on lockdown.
Remember when people were criticizing our picks as “Thibs picks”?
If so, Thibs did fine.
I don’t take credit for much (anything?), but y’all gotta line up behind me to get on the Grimes loveboat. Ima captain of this ship.
When Grimes scores 50 pts in a game twice in the same season then we can compare them! Not criticizing your comparison just think Houston was always underrated by Knicks fans, Spree was always the more lauded and popular player but Houston was the much better player as a Knick who unfortunately by many will only be remembered for his final contract.
I have no idea if McBride or Grimes will be very good NBA players or not based on summer league, but I’m pretty sure they won’t suck
And Vildoza was just about flawless:)
Do we keep him with all of our new found guard depth?
RJ.. Randle and Mitch who are our three best starters and deserve the lion’s share of the credit for last year were all acquired under Mills’ tenure.. and those weren’t through the benefit of blind luck… they could’ve easily gone in a totally different direction on each of those areas.. same thing with the KP deal which was a monumental decision that worked out wonderfully…
the mills era had loads of process issues on the basketball side of things which is why he would have never had worked out… we probably would’ve blown many other picks.. but if we’re fellating the rose era… you have to recognize that he was a rather large benefactor of moves made under mills… and i would bet dollars to doughnuts that mills era players will outlast the rose era ones from these last couple of years in the lineup…
I like that Grimes makes it a point to punish any defender that goes under the screen off him by squaring up and immediately shooting the J. That will do wonders for his game and will open so much underneath if he can continue to make defenders pay.
I can’t speak to Randle, but by multiple accounts, Mitch was a Perry pick, and Mills wanted to trade down from 3 (to get Cam Reddish, among others), while Perry was adamant about staying in place to pick RJ.
Sharif was in jail. Miles was his warden. Why is no one acknowledging this?
Yeah all the credit going to Mills for the moves prior to Rose coming here might also want to credit Perry considering he was retained from that front office when everyone else was replaced.
Please tell them they can’t keep Quinton Rose on the roster. The Sim(m)s brothers are bad enough…
i mean randle was probably a perry pick also… mills as we all know wasn’t a basketball mind like at all…. but the point being is that all of these happened under mills… trying to divy up credit based on anonymous sourcing is going to be pretty hard which is why people usually credit or blame the top of the ticket…. when people are on their way out a lot of things are going to be said about them which i would.. at the very least… not take at 100% face value…
but the larger point is that these things happened under mills tenure.. whether or not he rightfully deserves the credit…. and there have been things that have happened under rose’s … whether or not he rightfully deserves the credit… but there have clearly been things that preceded rose that he is now largely benefitting from… and if you look at all the moves he’s made.. the only guy that has a good chance of actually sticking for more than two years is Fournier(which is probably another perry pick btw)… while RJ.. Randle and Mitch will largely still be big players on the knicks or in the nba somewhere…
we could all roast the mills era for what it was… but there were decisions made in that era that weren’t exactly easy that’s allowed us to do well…. good things can sometimes come out of bad management… and it’s ok to credit people where it’s due… and i think mills’ last season probably colored the whole thing … deservedly so.. but in hindsight… it probably would’ve looked a lot better if he just got a different coach the next year…
Why on earth are you people talking about Steve Mills?
Million dollar question here.
I give Perry credit for the contracts at the very least. Even if you want to give Mills credit for the signings they specifically stated that they brought Perry in to do the contracts. I suspect he had his hand in more than just the contracts though.
Well, I’m ready to declare victory over ATL in the draft
Grimes & Deuce both looked legit and then some
Sims looked excellent for a 58 pick, plus he can jump over Obi
Double M showed me enough to stay through preseason (but Thibs will probably run the starters 48 min anyway)
It’s only 2 people who are trying to praise Mills.
Mills was a fucking asshole who presided over the longest running clown show in the NBA’s 21st century. I give him zero credit for any of the success we are now enjoying because in the 5 seconds he had total control he made one of the dumbest bid against himself FA signings ever. Even after Perry got here he got everyone’s hopes up for a big FA score, totally whiffed, then gave a bunch of above-market deals to the likes of Portis, Ellington, and Payton. He got bailed out from overpaying Bullock by a neck injury and lucked into Marcus Morris. He drafted fucking Kevin Knox, the most unanimous projected bust in KB history.
I’m not crediting him for the Mitch pick as much as I blame other FOs from passing him over. RJ was a consensus #3 and he almost fucked that one up. And I have zero doubt that if he was still in charge, we would have some shitty-ass coach, would have blundered us into a late lottery team last season, and would have fucked up the pick. Maybe he would have dumped Julius for a couple of 2nds (like some folks here were begging for.)
I really don’t get it. We go from a grotesque circus picked to finish last by Vegas and most serious pundits, to a team that everyone is taking seriously in less than a year, and we want to credit the guy who is as responsible for the circus as anyone because he signed a promising player to a market-level deal, drafted a consensus #3 player at #3, and picked up a decent 2nd round pick after horrifically botching the lottery pick in the same draft.
Fuck Steve Mills.
Mills was against trading Morris too right?
It’s the offseason but Mills revisionism may be too much.
i think you also forgot he traded kp too.. and the melo deal… and the hernangomez deal…. i summarized all the major deals in the thread up…
all the other stuff i don’t think there’s any question he shouldn’t have gotten the job and he should’ve been fired long before anything else… bad management is bad management… and good process doesn’t end up with kevin knox even if he did work out… and good process doesn’t end up with ron baker … and even the th2 deal took a lot of gamble to see if he would work out at that price… which is why making trades as bad as the 19th and 33rd picks are canaries..
but it takes a lot of mental gymnastics to not credit him for all the positive that came out of his tenure and kind of lay all the credit at rose’s feet since he inherited basically all of the heavy lifters … it’s ok to have a hate boner for people but i think a less emotional response can recognize the good and bad without having to entangle the two… i can recognize that the kemba deal was good.. fournier was okish.. even tho i hated every other move he’s made…
i think we all recognize that isaiah thomas drafted pretty well … or is everything just bad with him too? is grunwald’s tenure in the shitter just because of bargnani? does it always have to be all bad or all good?
for me i don’t think so and i think most people agree or else we wouldn’t be talking about the KP.. melo.. and randle deal.. the RJ and Mitch picks in such glowing terms…. it’s just we all conveniently leave out the fact that it all happened under the guy we all universally hate… and nobody is under any obligation to give him credit for anything but objectively speaking… all that happened under his watch…
and you can’t be results oriented if you dont’ recognize those results….
it’s ok to have a hate boner for people
is it? is it really okay?
ha, hate boner, i don’t think i’ve ever heard or seen those two words together before…nice…
It should be noted that Steve Mills complied the NBA’s worst record over his most recent 3 year stint as POBO.
To give credit for the underperformance of his roster, which Rose properly utilized, is faint praise.
***i think we all recognize that isaiah thomas drafted pretty well … or is everything just bad with him too? is grunwald’s tenure in the shitter just because of bargnani? does it always have to be all bad or all good?***
I said the negative vastly outweighs the good, which it does for Mills. And I said he didn’t blow every decision he was presented with and neither did Layden, Isiah, Walsh, Grunwald, and Jackson. Both of which you quoted, so I don’t know why you’d accuse me of not recognizing that any of them did good things. (Who are you even directing your comments to, if not the person you blockquote with the exact quote you are accusing them of not making??)
Look, Isiah gave Walsh/Grunwald some decent pieces to work with: David Lee, Nate Robinson, Wilson Chandler, Marbury, the #6 draft pick… most of those were used to put a 54 win team in place. Does that mean he was a net positive? No, he wasn’t. A different exec could have put a championship team together during that span. Instead, the team was a disaster. (And Isiah’s doctrine, though poorly executed, was an actual plan that could have achieved a great outcome if done properly. Mills didn’t even have a tangible plan other than “don’t get fired by Dolan”.)
Donnie, don’t feed the troll
i don’t think anyone claimed he was…
that is so fucking rich coming from you… the biggest fucking snowflake in the world that hijacks entire days worth of threads and make people leave the blog because you can’t handle their phrasing or you can’t handle criticism of the FO…
that guy is calling someone else a troll… the guy that needed a dozen people to call him out yet doesn’t have the self awareness to admit to anything is trying to get others in on this immature game with him…
if people think i should fuck off for having this opinion… i will gladly leave forever as long as people show me where i’m arguing in bad faith… in fact i think it’s others who are badly misinterpreting what i’m saying and to those i would say that they should reread….
otherwise attack my argument and dont’ attack me… that shouldn’t be a tough thing to do yet here we are… enduring the behavior of a child who lashes out the second they run out of rope in an argument… this is all just so cliche…
yes, best never to allow me to directly display gifs on this site…you wanna see trolling 😛
I didn’t like the Mills/Perry 1+1 deals because I would have rather used the cap space to stash bad contracts while acquiring assets. A couple of those contracts panned out, but for the most part those deals came with more opportunity cost than they did value.
I watched more SL basketball than suggested for sane people,
between rookies, UDFA and sophomores a lot of talent on display,
the games were better than I remember from two years ago.
Summer League is more useful to identify players that “can’t do it”,
but Deuce and Grimes look like rotation players that can help us win a couple of games during long winter nights in Detroit, Cleveland or Orlando…
They both showed more defensive chops than IQ and Obi and that alone can endear them to Thibs, they’re willing passers and can create for themselves (McBride more than Grimes).
I’m eager to watch pre-season games, this team is deeeeeep (this doesn’t mean we’re going to win 50 games, maybe not even 45, but there’s the potential to watch some fun basketball).
In non-Mills news, also known as ALL OF NEWS, the Knicks rookies have been fantastic in the SL that just ended
Some bits about yesterday:
Summer League – It went very well, right? The rooks look for real, they won’t be stars, which we already knew, but they look like they can develop to be good rotation players. IQ and Obi were ok for the expectation. I think IQ’s shooting won’t be a problem, he was trying to be a PG and the shooting didn’t flow as we’re used to expect from him. Obi looks to be developing, but we gotta see him against real NBA competition in the preseason to be sure. On the negative side, Vildoza didn’t look good and then got injured, the time is running against him, he better show something in preseason, or else he’s out.
Mills hype train – I can’t believe just because some things you do pan out, people praise such a bad executive. The Timberwolves FO has KAT and Edwards, are they good? Leon probably would just keep those 2 and revamp the rest, should the previous guy be praised?
Wonder boy executive start – It’s all going great, from our POV of course, because overpaying for intangibles is one of the worst things you can do. The other teams don’t value it, and you find yourself with an albatross contract the moment you sign it. Now their only hope is that Smart doesn’t decline or get injured, because that contract is immovable.
The fun bit –
Barrettcuda with the good rhymes
Just like McBride on defense
A notch below is Grimes
‘Cause he needs more offense
Yeah, I couldn’t be happier with how our rooks played. Every one of them played to the high end of expectations. Deuce and Grimes look like they might be able to contribute this year if needed. Sims might just be good enough for the Norvel Pelle emergen-C role.
This is the first season in a looooong time where Knicks fans can go into the season with positive expectations. Can’t wait until training camp!
If you’re into all the Kremlinology of MSG, this is an interesting one from Berman of the Post, singing the praises of the team’s recently-added second Europe-based scout, and using the drafting of Rokas as evidence that it’s already paying dividends.
I had no real beef with Rokas’ summer league play, especially in his last game. And it seems perfectly reasonable that after another year or two of seasoning in Barcelona, he could come over here and be a useful rotation player. But the article is treating him like a home run pick, in a way suggesting Berman is carrying water for either this new scout or someone in the front office who wants the hire to look good.
On a scale of summer Knicks things, I rate this much less interesting than the Deuce/Grimes backcourt, and much more interesting than a historical reassessment of Steve Mills.
I’m not worried whether the new scout was responsible for one of our recent draft picks, although he certainly could be. I’m happy the Knicks are investing in more scouting. That sort of infrastructure is important. It’s good the Knicks are willing to spend on it. And Europe is becoming more important as a source of talent and has a lot of different leagues. I can imagine there is plenty of scouting work to do there.
it’s a bit reductive to say that I’m praising mills… I’ve also included all the bad… some good things did happen under him and it’s not like we don’t already do that… randle .. the kp deals and the rj pick are already universally loved by now… were they all bad or something? there’s no reassessment happening… these were all good things we all already agree on…
but just because mills is mentioned it’s like it didn’t happen and it was like someone else did it… it’s not like mills was the brains behind all those moves but it did happen… like we can talk about the picks thomas made and credit him for those and still acknowledge it was a failed tenure and the guy was an idiot…
I honestly don’t think that’s a big statement but I think ppl are stuck on painting everything with the same brush… which I can understand but I try to avoid even if it is an unpopular opinion…
Again, the odds on superstars becoming free agents again anytime soon seem very low.
is this the part where you blame other people for you calling them names because they happened to trigger you? because that was a fun ride that we should all get on again….
Agreed. There seems to be a morbid penchant here for discrediting Leon Rose and his team. Curious draft day trade-out decisions are catastrophic “canaries in the mine.” Picking guys that aren’t even on one’s draft board is reflective of amateurish process. Initial takes on FA signings are “here we go again, just as bad as Phil, Isiah, etc. before the fine details are even known. Signing vets to reasonable short-term deals is a lost opportunity to lock up the Lonzo Balls of the world. Going from perennial laughingstock to owning the back pages in a positive way over the Nets in one year is a combination dumb luck, players working hard in the offseason on their own, and riding on the coattails of Steve Mills. At some point it becomes tiresome reddit-level bs. And sadly, it looks like it will continue indefinitely.
And yet Rose and co. stay silent and just do their thing, and the team’s outlook continues to improve day by day. We can all agree that they are not perfect and blew a couple of transactions without the self-serving hyperbole. We can all agree that the biggest, most consequential decisions lie ahead (although locking up Julius on what most fair-minded people would call a value deal is one of those decisions, and so much for the fear that he will get supermaxed like a #1 option.) You don’t have to be a fanbois asskisser to appreciate what they have done in such a short time. Just listen to the narrative in the media, especially the perennial haters like Hollinger and Barkley.
i think trying this slick move as painting everything you disagree with as this extreme viewpoint is the tired part…
that’s a trollish move if i’d ever seen one… especially when you’re stuck attacking the poster instead of the argument.. yet again…
Boston’s paying Smart a lot (BTW less than what Dallas is giving to THJ or we’re paying Fournier).
I think they’re overpaying but they know him well, they’re putting money on defense, teamwork, leadership and intangibles more than boxscore stats.
Fuck the Celtics, I hope they go 0-82… and end up fifth in the lottery.
But no contract is unmovable in the NBA, it just a matter of “cost of shipping”.
Westbrook’s contract was deemed unmovable many times, he’s been traded three times in three years.
Buyouts, waive & stretch, attaching picks, there’s always a way.
Jury is still out on Rose. It has been since he arrived here. But arrows are pointing up at the moment.
Fournier trade netted us two future 2nd rounders. We sent Boston cash. Per Begley
And I thought our FO undervalued picks
Bit of a risky move to give a division rival a large TPE, but I support it. They didn’t do much with the one they got from Hayward and it’s an expression of confidence that we can build faster than them.
It seems one of the 2nd rounders is top-55 protected and unlikely to convey. But well, it is nice to get a 2nd rounder.
But for a handful of tourney games each year, I don’t watch college hoops. Nor do I spend any time visiting the various draft preview sites to read up on the prospects. Pretty much everything I know about any class of incoming college players comes from what I read here on KB. This is my one-stop source for all things draft.
With that said, my expectations for this year’s Knicks draftees were pretty modest. The general consensus here on our rookie class seemed to be that they were unlikely to outplay their lowly draft pedigree. I’m not sure what I was expecting their Summer League performances to look like but, needless to say, it was something considerably less than what I saw.
I recall that many folks had Grimes ticketed for little more than a 3 &D role at the NBA level (he even objected to that characterization of his game in the post game interview yesterday) Indeed, the player I watched (insert “Kevin Knox was an SL All Star” caveat here) appeared to have a more diverse toolkit than that He seemed adept at creating a variety of 3-pt. looks for himself, showed some ability to get to the rim, rebounded well, and his D was as advertised. In short, a much more well rounded player than just a “younger, cheaper Bullock.”
Not much I can add about Deuce to what has already been said. His performance was on a par with what I saw from the top rookies in SL. Although I agree with those who say he does not take it to the hole often/well enough to ever be a top tier PG, he looks like he can be a very good one. His 3-pt shooting and D look to have elite potential and that should ensure him a long, productive NBA career.
As for the here & now, I can see both of them playing more than just cameo roles this year. Their willingness on D should endear them to Thibs and the fragility of our top 2 PGs should open up more than token minutes at that spot for McBride. I’m excited to see what “Grimey & Deuce” can do against real NBA competition.
it’s really just one below average second rounder
I’d say those picks are basically worthless because they’re so low and/or protected but we actually got Sims with the 58th pick and he didn’t look awful, so I can’t totally discount them. Still, mostly it sounds like us being good citizens to make it eaSier to do deals in the future.
Injuries will almost certainly create opportunities for both Grimes and Deuce, but ideally the team should build in rest days for both Kemba and DRose, which would allow one or both of the rookies to periodically get minutes. It’s just a question of whether a minutes maniac like Thibs would consider an actual load management plan for these guys — or perhaps whether Leon Rose (whom Thibs trusts and would take orders from) would be willing to mandate such a plan.
The reason I was high on Grimes coming in was mostly history. The fact that he was one of the most highly touted high school players in the country says a lot about athleticism and capacity to shine — as he said, he’s not just a 3-and-D. The fact that he cratered at Kansas was worrisome, but instead of sulking or wandering off to get wasted reps in some F league somewhere, he went with a hard-nosed Thibs college coach and completely re-made his game with a focus on defense — essentially pulling a Randle.
I don’t know if there’s an all-star in there, but I do think there’s a hard-working plug-and-play who does things the right way and who we’re all going to be really happy is on our team.
The Jarret Culver era is over in Minnesota
Raven, Grimes’ high school pedigree has me at least vaguely wondering if there might be more to unlock from him than just a potential high-level role player type. That said, there are lots of top high schoolers who struggle as one-and-dones, get drafted anyway because of said pedigree in the hopes their brief college career was an aberration, and then don’t improve in the pros. That Grimes stayed at that level and remade his game means he’s not likely to be a bust, but it may be that the more ball-dominant game that Kansas’ recruiters saw was a mirage, and the Houston guy is just who he is.
yeah, this is another thing I predicted a while back. Kevin Durant was the last of the mohicans. with rare exceptions, teams are either going to get the extension or trade the player. The only time you can expect an exception is if the team has a strong chance at a title in the players final year.
shifting the focus to us, I fail to see how we have enough ammunition to acquire a superstar and field a title worthy team with what’s leftover. We don’t have any high end talent that is expendable.
There’s really only one solution to the puzzle: Zion. You can trade everything you have for him and still have enough time to build a contender in his prime. But as bad as the Pelicans are, it’s really hard to force your way out on a rookie contract. The qualifying offer bluff doesn’t work.
Are you talking about the summer that also saw Kyrie, Kawhi, Kemba and Jimmy go to a new team in free agency?
If Kemba can give us vintage play, I predict 50 wins and, at least, round two of the playoffs
Again, I remember Jowles predicting 38 wins in 13/14 only to see it happen when Tyson Chandler broke his leg. Yeah, Bargnani was bad, but shit happens for many reasons.
Even the much maligned Melo works out if Stat has any lateral movement left. People forget to mention the max we gave him for a half season of all star play.
This team has it all but it’s a chaotic sport. More dangerous than skateboarding. It’s pretty much why I stopped watching football. Talent just gets wrecked.
So, maybe we get great Kemba. Or maybe there’s too many miles on the treads. That’s the gamble. I think, if that turns to shit, we are insulated with depth that other contenders with “Big Threes” can only dream of. Plus they have to stay healthy too. Which pretty much none of them did last year….