Would You Trade Obi Toppin and the #21 Pick For Collin Sexton?

Shams reports, “The Knicks are the most aggressive trade suitor for Cavaliers guard Collin Sexton, sources said. Sexton is eligible for his rookie extension this offseason, and with one year left on his deal, it allows Cleveland to continue to be patient in constructing the roster.”

And if Shams says the Knicks are “the most aggressive trade suitor,” you can take that to the bank. Doesn’t mean that they’ll get the deal done, but if he says they’re pursuing it, they’re pursuing it.

The rumors have soon moved to basically one of their two first round picks (probably #21) and Toppin for Sexton (Knox might be involved, too, but who cares?). So, would you do that deal?

As part of our all-poll content…

Would you trade Toppin and the #21 pick for Collin Sexton?

View Results

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As an aside, if you’re interested, I tackled whether players (like Torey Craig this season) are guaranteed championship rings if the team they’re currently on is playing the team they played for earlier in the season.

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388 thoughts to “Would You Trade Obi Toppin and the #21 Pick For Collin Sexton?”

  1. Surprised at how many people said they would pull the trigger on this. I really liked playoff Obi, but I get that maybe he’s going to gather dust behind Randle.

    I actually like Sexton more than most here but I don’t think he’ll be as good as Obi when it’s all said and done. But hey, I’ve been wrong before (but not about Frank — je t’aime, mon amour!)

  2. I voted yes. I will take my Sexton marshmallow now please rather than wait and hope LaVine or Beal want to come next year. We would also probably have enough room for a DeRozan or Oubre type. That would be a fun team to watch, although I doubt if it would be enough to win it all. What channel is Team USA on?

  3. Wow! Luca with his second and third long threes back to back. He’s not afraid to shoot.

    To quote the announcer, “That was spicy.”

  4. Early Bird:
    Green juststole it fromVildoza

    Yes but then Vildoza went iso against Dre and made a long three. He has a very nice handle and good passing skills. He also seems to like the challenge.

  5. Vildoza with a nifty pass, but there’s about 4 USA team members in the paint… USA is just too long and athletic for Argentina to get anything going. Their go to offense has mostly been posting up a 41yr old Scola

  6. Sorry, Brian. I voted no because I see pic 21 as someone like Duarte or Murphy, both of whom can help us. Obi looked to be breaking out. Then throw in Sexton’s lack of defense and what he will cost to retain and I say no thanks.

  7. DudeInKnicksTown: Yes but then Vildoza went iso against Dre and made a long three. He has a very nice handle and good passing skills. He also seems to like the challenge.

    I’ve been pretty pleased with what I’ve seen. I’m just commenting what happens for those that might not be watching. It’s not like Draymond is a slouch defender either.

  8. Vildoza wanted to play in the NBA. When you have to defend Bradley Beale and make shots against Draymond Greene, that’s got to be a good challenge for him.

  9. No and no some more. Who’s gonna be Julius’ caddy? Some older vet who will likely break down if we need him to play a bigger role? Julius survived injury and COVID last season which is great. But injuries are a part of the game and Jules can’t and shouldn’t continue to play 40 minutes a game. Furthermore, does Sexton REALLY make us that much better than keeping Obi and that pick? Oh and add that to the fact that we will likely give Sexton a nice bag if he even repeats the numbers he had for Cleveland last season. Are we really in the market of overpaying for a dicey move after the season we just had? These are the times that you overpay for what you know if you have to, ie: Lowry, CP3. But giving up that kinda future stock for a player who may be ascending but is as uneasy a fit for the type of PG we need as Sexton is, just ain’t the move. It’s an overpay right now and an underwhelming rookie season behind Julius’ unexpected explosion is no reason to include Obi in a deal for Sexton. Now..if Julius takes another step forward, then I feel great about moving Obi somewhere

  10. Vildoza with good D on Dame. Fought over the screen and made him take a bad shot. He’s been defending against Dame and Dame has been quiet.

  11. DudeInKnicksTown:
    Vildoza with good D on Dame. Fought over the screen and made him take a bad shot.

    Also the nice fake 3 and drive resulting in a floater, he missed but it was a nice play

  12. ess-dog:
    What is Vildoza’s line? Can’t find it anywhere

    I think he has 9 points on 3 threes. Probably no assists and possibly 1 rebound. 1 turnover that I remember. He’s looked good overall and has good size plus competitiveness.

    Edit: 3 rebounds and 2 assists in 23 minutes.

    He always goes over the screen.

  13. Keep the powder dry for Zach LaVine

    co-sign.

    I think the Bulls will have to do a course correct modseason and sell. I want my poweder dry for Lavine.

  14. Those of you preferring Lavine should note that he is the player most like Sexton in the link Jowles posted.

  15. Buying low on Collin Sexton, provided we bring back Derrick Rose, probably isn’t the worst idea. The kid averaged 24/4/4 on a .475/371/.815 (.573 TS%/.519 eFG%) as a 22 year old on a terrible team, and he doesn’t foul a lot or turn the ball over a lot. If there’s one back up point guard in the NBA that Collin Sexton could learn from and would listen to, it’s Derrick Rose. You older guys may not have been impacted, but kids back in 2011 used to worship Derrick Rose. If the Rose/Thibodeau combination gets Sexton to buy in, chances are you’ve just lucked into your starting point guard until 2030.

    Obi Toppin is a high price for me to pay emotionally, but you trade Toppin and 21 all day and all night if it gets you an actual NBA starting point guard.

  16. If Collin Sexton turns out to be really good, he’ll be Zach LaVine.

    Seems like it makes more sense to get the guy who is already Zach LaVine

  17. JK47:
    If Collin Sexton turns out to be really good, he’ll be Zach LaVine.

    Seems like it makes more sense to get the guy who is already Zach LaVine

    We can get both

  18. JK47:
    If Collin Sexton turns out to be really good, he’ll be Zach LaVine.

    Seems like it makes more sense to get the guy who is already Zach LaVine

    The price for Lavine will be a lot highet

  19. Shams:

    Kawhi Leonard had surgery to repair a partially torn right ACL.

    Crazy.

  20. this is really dependent on what kind of contract sexton gets…. and whether we are really relying on him as a pg… i don’t think you can… while his assist rate did increase… his assist/to ratio has been pretty mediocre.. and he absolutely looks for his own shot first…

    his development has been very promising tho and there is likely another solid leap.. the question is whether or not he’s just a lou williams or a rich man’s eric bledsoe… lou williams cannot be our pg but bledsoe probably can…

    after some more thought i think it’s closer than first glimpse… but you’d really have to be confident that sexton would work as a pg… and i’m just not that confident… i don’t think trading either first round picks or even the 32 should even be mentioned in a deal… if he’s really being floated this hard there’s no real reason to give up anything of value considering you’re beholden to match on whatever the market gets him… and it could be a be a pretty significant deal….

  21. Zach LaVine didn’t put up a season like Sexton just had until his 5th season in the NBA. In fact LaVine’s 5th season is almost identical to the season Sexton just had which was only his 3rd season in the NBA. LaVine was also considered a horrible defender too.

  22. There seems to be some confusion over the finances here. Trading Toppin and Knox for Sexton would actually increase the amount of cap space we have this offseason by ~$4M. If we renounced all of our cap holds (we probably won’t, just making a point), we’d have nearly $60M in space.

    Next offseason, even with cap holds for Randle, Sexton, and Mitch, we’d still have ~$42M in space if we didn’t take on additional long-term money in 2021. In other words, we’d be free to sign LaVine or whoever else would take our money.

    As for Sexton the player, I’m pretty surprised at some of the reactions here. All-in-one metrics are pretty unhelpful when it comes to evaluating SGs (Sexton’s position in all but name only, and even in name he played 57% of his minutes there this past season) due to their “go get buckets and don’t do much else” role. Sexton is pretty damn good at the bucket getting for someone his age, and at the end of the day there remains no skillset more difficult to get in your building than high-volume, high-efficiency scoring.

    I suppose if you think Sexton is mostly done improving, it makes sense to be firmly opposed to this deal. Needless to say I see no reason to think that’s the case. He’s only 22, he’s improved a lot every year, draft models tended to like him, and there’s some low-hanging fruit in his shot distribution.

    All that said, it’s far from a slam dunk for me and his full max would make me a little queasy unless we were truly able to assemble a contender before we had to pay it. But he’s being talked about like he’s Andrew Wiggins or something when his career arc has much more closely resembled Kyrie Irving’s.

  23. I wouldn’t be so quick to compare Sexton to LaVine because LaVine is a Tier 1 NBA athlete and I’m not sure Sexton is in that category. Sexton has a ton of tenacity and scoring talent, but needs to learn how to play winning basketball. My big fear when it comes to adding him is I really do worry if he and Randle are content to play my-turn-your-turn on offense or if Thibs will actually run an offense that leverages the collective rim pressure and spacing that RJ, Randle, and Sexton would all create. I just don’t want the addition of Sexton to get in the way of what RJ Barrett is cooking.

  24. thenoblefacehumper: Trading Toppin and Knox for Sexton would actually increase the amount of cap space we have this offseason by ~$4M. If we renounced all of our cap holds (we probably won’t, just making a point), we’d have nearly $60M in space.

    I don’t think we can get to $60M unless we waive Pelle & Vildoza and also trade a draft pick. But yeah, it saves us money this year.

  25. LaVine will be a free agent in 2022, but is there any indication that he would want to come to the Knicks? What if the Knicks take a step back? What if Chicago improves? Won’t they be able to offer him an extra year? If you can get Sexton now for Toppin and a 1st, that’s a very reasonable price.

  26. What is the value to creating more cap space this summer? This isn’t a deep free agency class and giving up assets to get Collin Sexton would seem counter productive if you’re clearing room for a star trade. If the Sexton trade is really happening (and Obi/Knox/21 leave), I’d grab him, look to add Duncan Robinson and/or Doug McDermott, then re-sign Derrick Rose, Alec Burks, and Taj Gibson. That could be a fun team.

  27. the problem cap wise with sexton and next summer is if we’re signing sexton to be our sg…. that means we will still need to shell out for a pg and then we’ll basically be out of a max slot…

    the only this works is if we’re trading for him to be our pg… which is a pretty big gamble… but would start making a lot of sense trying to jam guys into the cap… if the theory of less usage improves efficiency then gambling that sexton could squeeze more efficiency out of his game concentrating on setting people up is an interesting gamble to take…

    but if he’s just going to be a lou williams… at something like 16-24mm aav? and then signing lowry at 20mm aav? that’s where this starts looking very very bad…

  28. Lavine’s and Sexton bpm progress look very much alike in the first three years:

    -4.6 -> -1.5 -> 0.1 (Lavine, then he took a step back, and then two steps forward)
    -4.7-> -1.8 -> 0.0 (Sexton)

    I prefer other options (Lonzo Ball), but there are not many opportunities to grab a PG and a few are pipedreams. So I’d rather make this trade rather than staying with Payton or getting Lowry. Besides, being great playing 3-on-5 is much better than being great playing 3-on-3, :P

  29. I gave it a long thought, but in the end i think the price is fair (or even good) and it’s a good situation to have a full year to evaluate Sexton before deciding what to do next (about him). And also there’s not that many alternatives this summer, Lonzo looks like the best alternative to this plan. It’s a close call, but Sexton has the advantage to let us get away from the plan if it doesn’t work.

  30. Macri, who’s usual the ultimate Knicks optimist, wants no part of Sexton, given the contract he’ll get in a year. Today’s whole newsletter is great, but here’s one damning excerpt among many:

    Maybe the offense continues to run primarily through Randle, and RJ and Sexton simultaneously ride sidecar. Sexton can continue to be just good enough on open triples to justify that part of his existence, while also being just effective enough on drives to hold up that end of the bargain as well. Maybe his tenacity on the defensive end means he won’t get hunted in the playoffs, and maybe (like the Hawks repeatedly did with Trae Young) he can be hidden. Maybe he’s still good enough to justify that level of effort, even as a secondary creator. Maybe. Maybe. Maybe.

    Even then though, you’re left hoping Julius can be a top option, which…I don’t know.

    And boy, is this a lot of dough to shell out to give this experiment a whirl. If you thought Andrew Wiggins contract was an albatross, picture the same money attributed to a much smaller version.

  31. Oh and btw, Sexton in the Elfrid role would be a big improvement from last season. We play our game through a point-forward (Julius) so we have one of the better spots for Sexton to thrive. It’s a low risk, high reward situation, isn’t that what all teams are searching for?

  32. Macri thinks Leon is a moron? This is a low cost move and if he doesn’t fit well or even slightly looks like Wiggins, why in hell would Leon pay him instead of letting him walk and shift to another plan? For me, the year to evaluate if he’s a bust or not is exactly what makes this deal a no-harm deal.

  33. cybersoze:
    Macri thinks Leon is a moron? This is a low cost move and if he doesn’t fit well or even slightly looks like Wiggins, why in hell would Leon pay him instead of letting him walk and shift to another plan? For me, the year to evaluate if he’s a bust or not is exactly what makes this deal a no-harm deal.

    You’re still giving up some assets to get the guy. Maybe Obi really is a bust and Playoff Obi was the mirage, and maybe the 21st pick in this deep draft actually amounts to nothing. But I feel more confident in the idea of Obi and, say, Duarte, helping the Knicks — whether as players themselves are as assets in a trade for a better player than Sexton — than I do in the idea of Sexton making the leap that would make his next contract worth it to this team.

  34. Alan: You’re still giving up some assets to get the guy. Maybe Obi really is a bust and Playoff Obi was the mirage, and maybe the 21st pick in this deep draft actually amounts to nothing. But I feel more confident in the idea of Obi and, say, Duarte, helping the Knicks — whether as players themselves are as assets in a trade for a better player than Sexton — than I do in the idea of Sexton making the leap that would make his next contract worth it to this team.

    Fair enough. As i said, for me it’s a close call, but then i think the fall-back from Sexton plan is that maybe we can get enough value back in a sign and trade in a year to mitigate the assets we sent to the Cavs. Because pointz will always have a trade partner ready, whereas if Obi plays like regular season Obi, and Duarte isn’t that great either, they’ll amount to nothing, yeah. It’s really really close, but i think the Sexton plan has more getaway paths than the Obi + pick#21 plan.

  35. The best outcome of Sexton to me seems like Kemba Walker and Kemba may be a pretty nice upgrade over our recent pgs but i wouldn’t want him as my future highly paid starting pg.

    #NEW YORK KNICKS @nyknicks:
    Your birth month is your two-on-two partner.
    Who you got?#

    DFknRose
    We kick ass!

  36. Alan:
    Macri, who’s usual the ultimate Knicks optimist, wants no part of Sexton, given the contract he’ll get in a year. Today’s whole newsletter is great, but here’s one damning excerpt among many:

    I am having trouble understanding why people think Sexton will “definitely” get the max or something close to it. Someone has to offer him the max in order for him to get the max. That someone does not need to be the Knicks. If indeed Sexton plays well enough that a team wants to pay him the max, then we can always match that. If Sexton doesn’t play well enough to warrant anyone offering him the max (including the Knicks) but he still wants the max, what are his options? He doesn’t have options. It’s either take the QO and become a UFA the next summer (in which case we’d be getting him for something like 2 years $14MM and then letting him walk OR S&T him to a team), or take whatever the Knicks offer, which presumably will NOT be the max.

    Thibs is not the GM/POBO here like he was in Minnesota for the Wiggins deal. Leon Rose is not an idiot, and you damn well better believe Sexton’s CAA representation knows that Rose is not an idiot.

  37. I think the problem in this proposal is folks are valuing Obi wrong. Though the NBA is a “What have you done for me lately” league, you can’t look at Obi’s stats and say “he’s done nothing..let’s trade him for Sexton”. And yes, I get it- we need a PG. But you can’t throw the whole Obi away based on his rookie year. NO ONE expected Julius to play the way he did, which made it impossible for Obi to get a ton of minutes and also makes his situation a little unique. The one thing you can fault Obi on is the fact that early on he didn’t play well enough to give Julius a real rest. When he finally did play better, Thibs was way comfortable playing Julius insanely huge minutes by then. Not making excuses- just saying Obi’s rookie year is hard to evaluate.

    Cleveland is likely asking for Obi because they have a hunch (probably more right than wrong) that Obi will flourish with no one in his way (assuming Love gets moved) and with a real PG. They also know that Garland is a better PG than Sexton and they can’t pay Sexton what he will make on his next deal to be a 6th man. And neither guard is big enough to make them an effective starting backcourt moving forward. Portland makes it work but Dame & CJ are both 6’3″ and 200-ish lbs with enough length to bother opposing backcourt on defense.

    And honestly, why pay that much to guess on Sexton as your starting PG when you can guess on Quickley in year 2? Doesn’t anyone think that he learned alot this past season and has the work ethic and IQ(no pun intended) to apply what he learned? While I don’t mind giving Sexton a shot- he should be the option after Quickley on the list. I’m certainly not paying that much for an option that’s not a head and shoulders better option than trying Quickley. If he scores 20ppg on good splits..we’re gonna pay him. It’s just too much to give up Obi in that deal- especially if you don’t want Julius playing 40mpg

  38. The real reason that Macri and co. talked about in terms of not wanting to trade for Sexton is — what do you do with Immanuel Quickley with Sexton on board. The coaching staff + Rose/Wes know Quickley and his potential better than anyone. If they sign or trade for another 22 year old PG, that tells you what they think of Quickley’s chances to become the primary ball handler in the starting lineup.

    In terms of Macri’s other reasons – ie. “smart organizations figure out how to get 5th and 6th men from picks like 19 and 21” –> my inclination is that it is quite unlikely the Knicks actually pick 3 rookies (not to mention pick 58) this year. There just isn’t enough space on the roster. Sure, you could trade these picks into the future, but let’s say you trade 21 in a Sexton deal — you’re still picking 2x in the first 32 picks. There are your 5th and 6th men.

    Last nitpick on Macri – he brings up Mikal Bridges as proof that “margin moves” can pay off big — Bridges was a freaking lottery pick, not 19-21.

    Overall – I wouldn’t be sad if they made this proposed trade. My guess is they can probably get it done without trading Obi if they wanted to (ie. trade 19, 32, Knox, and take back a bad salary). I’d be perfectly / very happy if they played this summer like they played last summer – make targeted moves, continue accumulating assets, wait to make the big swing. But this Sexton rumor doesn’t feel like a big swing – it feels like a pretty reasonable risk to take with a limited amount of assets involved.

  39. Choice #1 for me is still probably signing Kyle Lowry to a 2 year deal. That costs you nothing in terms of draft/player assets, gives you what you need at PG on both sides of the ball. My guess is they already know whether Lowry would have interest. If they make the Sexton deal, it probably means Lowry isn’t interested.

    With Lowry, you’d still have enough $ to bring back Rose and probably one of Burks or Bullock. Then you draft BPA wings at 19/21 (to be eventual replacements for Burks/Bullock), and probably a big a 32 as Taj/Mitch insurance.

  40. And i didn’t read Macri’s newsletter because i’m not a paying customer, but if he sounds like Sexton is our plan of a big three with RJ and Julius, he must hire TNFH as his consultant.
    If we trade for Sexton he’ll have a cap hold of 19M next summer, so if we don’t ship out anymore salaries that go through the 2022-23 season, we’ll have space for the 30% max and with some work we’d reach the full-max (35%) if needed. So it’s really a plan of Julius, RJ and Sexton being options 2, 3 and 4, and then go get a star PG to be the number 1 guy for a team like this: Star PG + Sexton + RJ + Julius + Mitch.
    Looks pretty great to me, if Sexton reaches his potential. If he doesn’t… good riddance!

  41. Knew Your Nicks: DFknRose
    We kick ass!

    You’re looking good… but i don’t think you could win against the RJ-Cyber combo! :P
    I’m more afraid of the guys that get Knox, as we all know he’s a superstar at all lineups except 5-on-5! :D

  42. The other thought is – if you bring in Sexton, maybe you just don’t bring back Rose, which would then give you that cap $ to play with in FA. Sexton basically is a younger version of Rose right now, with the added benefit of potential upside. That would be how you get Quickley minutes — in certain lineups/matchups with Sexton, and then as the primary ball handler with the bench crew.

    The Vorkunov Athletic piece is much more reasonable than Macri’s –> basically you would assume Sexton gets the next “tier” of rookie extensions / contracts below the max is 4 years 72-80MM. If you’re paying Sexton that as a 22 year old high volume / medium-high efficiency guard scorer with some playmaking upside, that is sustainable.

    I really just don’t understand why anyone thinks we would be forced to give him the max if he doesn’t deserve it. As Vork writes in the article:

    Here are the players who earned rookie max extension in 2020: Donovan Mitchell, Jayson Tatum, Bam Adebayo and De’Aaron Fox. And here’s 2019: Ben Simmons, Pascal Siakam, and Jamal Murray. And 2018: Karl-Anthony Towns and Devin Booker.

    Left unsaid — all the players who did NOT get rookie max extensions. Sexton would almost certainly fall into that NOT max extension group.

    If you look at all the players that have signed post-rookie deal max contracts in the last 5-6 years, really the only 2 that stand out as greatly undeserving are Wiggins and Porzingis. Wiggins was the #1 pick in the draft, and had Thibs (not a #s guy) as his POBO. KP’s contract – too much has been written about that already.

  43. I really just don’t understand why anyone thinks we would be forced to give him the max if he doesn’t deserve it.

    Exactly. My biggest worry is paying a non all star guard 20 mil a year and up. If he continues to shoot like he did last season while putting up 20 as a Knick, but doesn’t improve his playmaking- we are still gonna give him 20 or so mil a year because we feel like we need that type of young scorer in the backcourt. That I don’t like for this team if our best players are gonna be Julius, RJ, Mitch, and Sexton. But hey, that’s the market I guess because Lonzo Ball is gonna get FVV money most likely. Maybe I’m just cheap lol.

    Now if we take on a bad contract that we can flip to a playoff team like Love, I’d consider moving Obi in that deal. Quite a few teams could use a healthy Love. Hell..maybe with Kawhi’s injury, we can swindle our way into a rental for a year and end up with Sexton/RJ/Kawhi/Julius/Mitch in our starting 5. Of course Kawhi would have to opt in. But who knows? I would like to see the FO be shrewd this offseason for once

  44. I guess I better explain that “swindle Kawhi” thing lol

    It would be a 3 teamer with Obi, Knox, 19, 21, and the future 1st from Dallas involved. Love would give the Clips something they need more of while not sacrificing scoring. I think a starting lineup of Serge/Love/Mook/George/Jackson could be quite nice. An all in gamble, sure. But if there’s any coach that can manage that, it’s Ty Lue.

  45. > my inclination is that it is quite unlikely the Knicks actually pick 3 rookies (not to mention pick 58) this year. There just isn’t enough space on the roster.

    who exactly is filling this roster at the moment where we’re handwaving away draft picks?

  46. Wiggins makes a lot more than Sexton would make.

    Wiggins is still improving on both ends of the floor.

    His story is still being written.

  47. I’ve said this so many times I’m even starting to bore myself. This is one of the problems with building via the modern draft where kids are taken high in the lottery. A lot of them will show good potential but not enough productivity to warrant the extension salary you have to give them a few years down the line. You are often going to have pay for their POTENTIAL That’s a dilemma. You could get stuck with a significant overpay (Wiggins) or an injury prone big man (KP). Then you have to sweat out their development and health for the duration of the contract hoping the development comes and they stay healthy. On the flip side, if you let them walk or trade them for picks some of them will explode forward, become key pieces to a championship run, and you’ll find yourself in a never ending rebuild mode.

    Typically, I think you just have to pay.

    Sexton is a scorer. He’s going to get paid.

    If he was actually a PG, could defend a little, and didn’t give off that “knucklehead vibe”, I’d be all for it. But I don’t even see him as a perfect fit for NY other than we need a scorer. We are going to be forced to make a tough financial decision over a guy I’m not so sure we should even want. He might be a great fit and player elsewhere, but is he what WE need? We should answer the question “Is he what we want and need” before we contemplate trading for him and paying him.

  48. Collin might give off a knucklehead vibe but he apparently had a 4.0 GPA in his one year at Alabama and continued to do coursework afterwards. I’m not a fan but I doubt that he has character issues.

  49. The Obi situation is a different kind of dilemma. Setting aside whether we should have drafted him over Haliburton (lol), I think he was drafted on the assumption that the Knicks might eventually move on from Randle and Obi would eventually take over the PF slot. Two things happen. Randle improved and Obi wasn’t as good as hoped for out of the gate. That changed the calculus.

    If the new calculus is that Obi is going to be the backup for Randle long term, so be it.

    If they still think Obi can become a very good player they are going to have to make a choice between them eventually. But you don’t do that until Obi shows is up for the job.

  50. I have now lured Vorkunov into a Twitter debate with Macri about whether or not Sexton will get the max.

    Macri on Vork’s proposed 4/72-80 deal:

    I’d sign up in a heartbeat, because to me that’s a worthy risk. I still need to read his piece, but I just don’t see how his representation would allow that. Mikal Bridges and Ayton are both about to get a 9 figure deals and he averages almost as many points as they do combined.

    Vorkunov:

    Points aren’t the end-all be-all and I think most (most) front offices don’t view them as that. Reps can ask whatever but negotiations aren’t one sided. Also helps he’s not testing full market if it’s rookie extension (not RFA). Also, Bridges and Ayton are in the Finals.

  51. Z-man:
    Collin might give off a knucklehead vibe but he apparently had a 4.0 GPA in his one year at Alabama and continued to do coursework afterwards. I’m not a fan but I doubt that he has character issues.

    That’s encouraging to hear, but there are a lot of very bright knuckleheads in the locker room. Maybe he’s Rondo with a shot but without everything else except the knucklehead. :-)

  52. After much thought I voted for “yes.”

    Obi really showed something in the playoffs and I think he can be a good player. I would try to just do Obi and the second rounder if possible. They’re getting a lottery pick only on the second year of his contract and we’re getting a more proven player who nevertheless has to be resigned in a year.

    But Sexton would be a BIG upgrade for us and he will get better. And if you think about the RJ/Randle timeline, getting a guy who is 22 and just figuring it out is maybe worth giving up a draft pick that will be a few years behind. And if we resign Rose…Rose could teach Sexton a lot. The defense is not great but Thibs can usually work with that. I don’t know. We’d definitely have a legit second option on offense in the starting 5 and a Randle, RJ, Sexton trio is maybe not the most elite one in the league but its young and you got a big man, a wing and a guard. Plus we’re not giving up IQ or Mitch in this scenario.

    So I say yes, but I’d try to push for the second round pick and not pick 21. I would hate to see Obi go but behind Randle there is only so much PT for him to get anyways.

  53. I think everyone agrees that it’s in everyone’s best interest for Obi to be traded eventually, if you assume Randle is a long-term part of the core. We’d just be selling really low on him. If Playoff Obi is real at all, I have to believe we could do much better trading him midway through next season than trying to deal him now off of a mostly awful rookie year that perked up near the very end.

  54. Deefense, I mean you gotta hope he can evolve into what we need. He is not a high assist PG but those numbers are trending upwards. And the offense can often run through Randle still anyways. He can score, though, which we really do need. And he is super young. I don’t know. My reflexive reaction to this initially was “no” but I’m warming up to it. If we’re keeping pick 19 and not losing RJ, Mitch or IQ in a trade and getting back a 22 year old guard who can score really well and will in theory get better at the other things…sign me up I guess?

  55. I didn’t read the Macri or Vorkunov pieces, but based on the excerpts I’ve seen it seems like neither is asking the right questions. They seem to be pondering the fair deal and the fair salary. I’m not even sure he’s the right player even if we could put together a good trade and a fair salary.

  56. Deeefense:
    I didn’t read the Macri orVorkunov pieces, but based on the excerpts I’ve seen it seems like neither is asking the right questions. They seem to be pondering the fair deal and the fair salary. I’m not even sure he’s the right player even if we could put together a good trade and a fair salary.

    Good lord, what happens when Strat and Jowles are in lockstep on a player?!?!?

  57. Deefense, I mean you gotta hope he can evolve into what we need. He is not a high assist PG but those numbers are trending upwards. And the offense can often run through Randle still anyways.

    I hear everything you are saying.

    I’m just less anxious to pull the trigger just because there’s a somewhat shiny toy available.

    I was a Randle defender last year despite the frustrations, I felt somewhat vindicated by his play this year, but I don’t like running the offense through him. He’s fine as a secondary playmaker when he gets double teamed, but imo he’s a 2nd option that on the final version of our team wouldn’t be getting double teamed much and wouldn’t be the primary playmaker. I think we are at the stage where if we make a serious long term move (not one of those mercenary type moves) it should be for the right player. I’m just not sure I want a non defender that I have to hope grows into what I really need.

    All that said, it’s not like I think we have to go the pure PG route.

    To tell the truth, I wouldn’t hate a Ball/Sexton backcourt, RJ at SF, Randle at PF, and Mitch (or Noel if we trade Mitch) at C lineup.

    Is there any way we could pull off a trade for both Sexton and Ball?

    That would give us another playmaker in Ball. Ball could defend the bigger and better guards and Sexton could score and maybe even become that #1 option over time.

  58. Alan: Good lord, what happens when Strat and Jowles are in lockstep on a player?!?!?

    It’s either one of the 7 signs of the apocalypse or we are both learning from each other. I vote for the former. lol

  59. Collin Sexton at 22 was way better than Wiggins at 22 so I don’t buy that comp from Macri. idk about his defense, but Sexton is a competent NBA guard on offense and Wiggins was a useless chucker when he was 22.

  60. I read the Macri piece and while it points out some of Sexton’s obvious flaws, it was a bit mailed in.

    First of all, as Vork is pointing out it’s not exactly rigorous analysis to conclude he’s definitely getting the max because most other young, high-volume scorers have. Most of those guys weren’t traded prior to signing their second contract, and a lot of them were signed prior to the rise of analytics.

    Second of all, as Macri acknowledges Sexton could still improve as a distributor and/or a 3PT shooter off the dribble. I have more faith in him improving in the latter than the former given his track record, but I see no reason he couldn’t both increase his total 3PA volume and get better off the dribble. We’re talking about someone who has made serious improvements every year. Macri looks at his relatively low 3PA as a flaw, which is fair, but the flip side is it presents an easy-ish route to .600 TS% land.

    Lastly, the Wiggins comparison is just lazy. Wiggins still hasn’t reached the level Sexton did at age 22 by either all-in-one metrics (which, again, are inclined to undervalue Sexton) or just a glance at the underlying numbers. If Sexton didn’t improve one iota after his age 22 season after making steady improvements every offseason before it, his max contract would still be better than Wiggins’.

    I’m far from sold on trading for Sexton, but every argument I’m seeing against it seems to boil down to Sexton…having some holes in his game. Yeah, he’s not a top-10 player at age 22. I would be much more strongly against the idea if trading for him basically capped us out, but it doesn’t even come close.

  61. It may be the side effects of the 2nd pfizer dose plus a few beers but Going after Sexton seems to me like a… mediocre guard plan

  62. Not to defend Wiggins (especially at his salary), but I think a good case can be made he’s slowly becoming a plus defender. Sexton is close to a Trae Young caliber defender.

  63. To no one in particular:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpBXYuX4PPQ

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zE-kGPPb-mE

    https://hoopshype.com/rumor/cavaliers-players-get-frustrated-with-collin-sexton/

    https://nba.nbcsports.com/2021/05/03/report-cavaliers-teammates-still-frustrated-by-collin-sexton-dominating-ball/

    Plus, in another piece for the Athetics months ago one of his teammates described him as “the selfish player I ever played with”, same issues the year before, same issues during his rookie season and at least two coaches have said that he’s uncoachable.

    But these are all rumors obviously as is his indefensible defense , while his pointzzz (with a 29,7% usage, higher than Randle) for a bad team are unequivocally real…

    Somewhere former Cavs pointzzz-God World B. Free is smiling glowingly…

  64. Generally speaking, young, promising PGs aren’t available for peanuts. If Sexton didn’t have flaws he wouldn’t be available. So you’d be gambling more on who he could be, not who he is. Certainly, Thibs isn’t gonna tolerate a lot of selfish bs from a 22yo..

  65. i think you have to look at lou williams as the comp…. similarly entered the league as a small gunner.. shoe horned into a pg role due to size… struggled initially but gradually improved until he became the player that we know today… a very good scorer but at heavy minutes as your pg.. you will have a limited offense as we saw with lou williams off the bench in atlanta…

    sexton isn’t destined to become that.. but there are going to be the same concerns that he’ll develop similarly… at his size.. if he’s not doing the majority of the playmaking you need to depend on someone else to do that… and if you don’t have that other someone who plays pg at another position.. then he probably needs to come off the bench…

    we have some candidates tho… randle and rj aren’t exactly jokic and lebron… but they could grow into approximations of that where we run some dynamic sets with either one of them maturing into true hubs of an offense… the downside is if that fails.. an iso heavy offense that’s stagnant and unimaginitive could just be more of the same except with sexton effectively replacing rose…. we all saw what happened with playoff randle and rj with too much ball handling responsibilities like what happened his rookie year… the whole reason we’ve been clamoring for a pg is to move beyond that….

    so this sexton experiment does carry some risk… we were all hoping for a pg that can unlock some things from our key players… sexton fulfills some part of the equation… but the trade could work out from a pure value perspective but still lead to poor results due to fit… and it’s very difficult to fit in a small guard that’s not a pg on most rosters…. we may have some solutions but i think that’s the fear most people against the trade have….

  66. MAx, did he have that reputation as selfish in high school or at Alabama?

    I’m genuinely asking because I haven’t followed his career that closely.

    Not to counter that but maybe he was perceived as selfish because he played for a shitty team? I mean The Cavs have been BAD his entire career. If he’s playing for Thibs with high character dudes like RJ and Randle and the other vets, being mentored by Rose…maybe he grows out of that or maybe he isn’t selfish, he just didn’t trust his bad teammates in Cleveland? I don’t know.

    I often wonder if our FO floats out all of these ideas to then see how knickerblogger reacts and then that helps inform their decision. :)

  67. It’s clear that I voted “No”,
    but still, despite my doubts (see above), a one year trial for Sexton’s costing Knox (not Toppin, we need to keep him for when we’ll trade Randle :-) ) and the 32nd pick can worth a try.

    I can understand the “let him prove his worth” theory if the price is really low, even if I don’t like the thought and he’s far from my kind of player…

    Chorus:
    Ky-le-Lo-wry (dum dum dum dum dum) Ky-Le-Lo-wry (dum dum dum dum dum)

  68. swiftandabundant:
    MAx, did he have that reputation as selfish in high school or at Alabama?

    I’m genuinely asking because I haven’t followed his career that closely.

    Not to counter that but maybe he was perceived as selfish because he played for a shitty team? I mean The Cavs have been BAD his entire career. If he’s playing for Thibs with high character dudes like RJ and Randle and the other vets, being mentored by Rose…maybe he grows out of that or maybe he isn’t selfish, he just didn’t trust his bad teammates in Cleveland? I don’t know.

    I often wonder if our FO floats out all of these ideas to then see how knickerblogger reacts and then that helps inform their decision. :)

    NCAA’s not my forte and I usually yield to DJphan and others for college infos.

    I understand the “he play for a bad team” question,
    but it’s always two folded,
    because as much as is true that he can be forced to take more “bad” responsabilities it’s also true that someone has to put up numbers on bad teams, otherwise every game will end 120-80…

    I’m a little suspicious that the Cavs are so eager to trade him for a low price and that we’re the only team mentioned in his pursue…

    At the end, I watched him play a lot and I’m not sold on him, he’s not (at this stage of his career) my cup of coffee, but to be fair he’s described as an hard worker, a smart dude and maybe Thibs can unlock his full potential.

  69. Max, I’m inclined to go the Lowry/Conley route as well and keep our picks and young players.

    We could also offer a sign and trade with Frank since he has huge value across the league and only the Knicks don’t realize his limitless potential.

  70. Spitball:
    If Pistons take Cade, do we offer Knox and # 21 for Killian Hayes? ( Throw in 32 if the former doesn’t get it done?)

  71. Bo Nateman:
    Spitball:
    If Pistons take Cade, do we offer Knox and # 21 for Killian Hayes? ( Throw in 32 if the former doesn’t get it done?)

    Knox + 32 & 58 seems fair

  72. Re: Sexton and what kind of kid he is — from what I remember pre-draft, people loved his character. Sam Vecenie, who’s known all these players since high school or before, always was high on his character and competitiveness.

    But this is why Rose hired Alex Kline, and you have to figure Kenny Payne knows him since high school also. It’s no revelation, but players who can take an honest look at themselves, identify areas of improvement, and put in the work are obviously going to improve a lot more than guys who can’t.

  73. If Pistons take Cade, do we offer Knox and # 21 for Killian Hayes? ( Throw in 32 if the former doesn’t get it done?)

    I can’t imagine Detroit does that. By all accounts, they are looking at Cade as a point forward rather than a pure PG, and in theory he and Hayes can play in the same lineup. Hayes didn’t have a great rookie season, even leaving the injury aside, but you don’t sell that low on such a high lottery pick after only a season.

  74. Alan: I can’t imagine Detroit does that. By all accounts, they are looking at Cade as a point forward rather than a pure PG, and in theory he and Hayes can play in the same lineup. Hayes didn’t have a great rookie season, even leaving the injury aside, but you don’t sell that low on such a high lottery pick after only a season.

    Which is why we shouldn’t dump Obi in a Sexton deal…

  75. Which is why we shouldn’t dump Obi in a Sexton deal…

    Except that Sexton is in theory a player our FO values if they do that deal. So that’s not a dump in the way that giving away the number 7 pick a year ago for a high second round pick and a giraffe on roller skates would be.

  76. Alan: Even then though, you’re left hoping Julius can be a top option, which…I don’t know.

    Macri appears to be on Team E (or if you want to say E is on Team Macri, fine). The flaw in the Sexton idea isn’t tactical, it’s strategic in that it implies that the team is going to be built around JR as a first option. Acquiring Sexton to be one of JR’s spokes makes zero sense.

  77. I respect the pro-Sexton argument put forth by TNFH, Knicks fan in NJ, and others. But I think this team has two big moves in them, and if one of them is Sexton I will just be underwhelmed.

    If we can work back channels to ensure we can get him on the 4 year, $80mm extension, I would change my tune. Bc at that price he’s tradable. And then I suppose you can trade IQ for a better piece. But it just seems like a lot of extra moves.

  78. character is such a tough thing to judge…. esp at such a young age… you could have a guy who has ‘high character’ but never step foot in a gym in the offseason (e.g shane battier) and thus never improve… you could have ‘low character’ guys who work hard in the offseason and be otherwise great teammates (e.g zach randolph)…. you could have low character guys but are just too talented to not play (e.g hassan whiteside).. you could have low character guys misjudged (e.g christian wood) and you could have high character guys completely overrated (e.g. frank ntilikina)…

    and people can evolve and mature… some/most of the time they don’t… kobe was a super ballhog and egotistical coming out of hs… and he didn’t really change all that much and in fact all that wound up helping him…. for other less talented people it winds up torpedo’ing them… that’s why all these subjective factors are tough to gauge how meaningful they are to someone’s development… it’s tough out in the real world in other industries too….

    that’s why i would take reports of anyone’s personality with a huge grain of salt… what ultimately matters is whether they have the ability to identify areas of improvement and make tangible gains… more than anything that’s the key skill for any person… let alone basketball players… in their career development… and you can judge that based off of objective factors in how they improve in key areas… if they can do that they can ultimately coalesce with others around them in some fashion…. even jr smith found his role as a gunner off the bench on a championship team…

  79. The flaw in the Sexton idea isn’t tactical, it’s strategic in that it implies that the team is going to be built around JR as a first option.

    If we trade for Sexton we could literally create $60M in cap room (we won’t, but we’ll have a ton regardless) this offseason and $40M next offseason. Why in the world does it imply that?

  80. I think Sextons low assist numbers can be attributed to (1) playing on the godawful Cavs and (2) playing off ball next to Garland.

    Even if Obi improves, I don’t think 10 min a game is going to increase his value much or allow him to prove anything. I’d trade him now while the sheen of his draft status is still there.

  81. Sexton doesn’t give you a single thing Immanuel Quickley can’t give you and in the few times exhibition/regular season IQ played Sexton/Garland, IQ lit them up. For whatever Thibsian reason Thibs had, IQ actually got decent (but still low) minutes in the one regular season game they all played and scored 25 points in 24 minutes. Sexton had 17 points in 34 minutes.

    Sexton plays and so his numbers look more “gaudy” and “pointzzzz-ey” but that’s just an illusion.

    Thibs way underplays IQ his rookie year and now we have to sit through Thibs underplaying IQ because of … Collin Sexton??? I think not.

  82. thenoblefacehumper: If we trade for Sexton we could literally create $60M in cap room (we won’t, but we’ll have a ton regardless) this offseason and $40M next offseason. Why in the world does it imply that?

    Why do you think Macri said the same thing? There isn’t a lick of evidence the Knicks are going to move JR from his first option status. And if they did, moving him out of it and giving the ball to Collin Sexton is arguably even fucking stupider.

    And then when Sexton gets here and realizes the ball’s JR’s, he’s going to bitch and whine. Or demand the ball and create a whole bunch of dissention with JR and everyone else.

    Less than zero interest in a season of JR and Collin Sexton taking turns with the ball and then bitching and side-eying each other.

    Hard pass.

  83. There isn’t a lick of evidence the Knicks are going to move JR from his first option status. And if they did, moving him out of it and giving the ball to Collin Sexton is arguably even fucking stupider.

    Do you think they will opt to simply not spend the remaining cap space?

    Macri was referring to a scenario in which the team is otherwise exactly the same:

    Maybe the offense continues to run primarily through Randle, and RJ and Sexton simultaneously ride sidecar. Sexton can continue to be just good enough on open triples to justify that part of his existence, while also being just effective enough on drives to hold up that end of the bargain as well…Even then though, you’re left hoping Julius can be a top option, which…I don’t know.

    I guess I’ll just keep repeating it: we will have gobs of cap space left over even if we trade for Sexton. Yes, it would be a bad idea to trade for Sexton if the idea is to, uh, proceed to not even hit the salary floor. I don’t think that’s the plan.

  84. Sexton doesn’t give you a single thing Immanuel Quickley can’t give you

    I’m kind of agnostic on this trade, but the above simply isn’t true, E.

    Sexton shot .455 from 3-10 ft and Quickley was at .392. As underdeveloped as Sexton’s passing is, Quickley’s is worse. On the other side, Quickley is a better defender and 3pt shooter. They are just very different players as of now.

  85. Yeah, but Kevin Love is not a great lens to view anyone through, not to mention that the Cavs were in total tank mode and had a college coach who lasted a half season of complete dysfunction.

    One thing you have to credit the Knicks FO for thus far is that they seemed to build a cohesive team with very little bitching about role and touches. The one guy who did bitch was dumped in short order at zero cost. So it seems unlikely that they would give up assets to bring someone aboard who wasn’t “dumpable” unless they were confident that E’s scenario wouldn’t unfold. I would rather not trade for Sexton, but it has nothing to do with potential chemistry problems.

  86. So far I trust the FO and Thibs but the Sexton plan seems to me like a bigger, more expensive DRose bet.
    Not good enough to fix you pg problem.
    Not so cheap also to try adding a young short scoring pg to your starless squad.

  87. E, all merc’d out: Macri appears to be on Team E (or if you want to say E is on Team Macri, fine).The flaw in the Sexton idea isn’t tactical, it’s strategic in that it implies that the team is going to be built around JR as a first option.Acquiring Sexton to be one of JR’s spokes makes zero sense.

    If you go with Sexton, I think you are hoping he matures into a #1 option eventually because with Randle, JR, and Sexton you have your 3 primary scorers. You are simply working out the pecking order from there depending on their development.

  88. thenoblefacehumper: Do you think they will opt to simply not spend the remaining cap space?

    Macri was referring to a scenario in which the team is otherwise exactly the same:

    I guess I’ll just keep repeating it: we will have gobs of cap space left over even if we trade for Sexton. Yes, it would be a bad idea to trade for Sexton if the idea is to, uh, proceed to not even hit the salary floor. I don’t think that’s the plan.

    I didn’t say a thing about the salary cap or Sexton’s contract.

  89. Hubert:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zE-kGPPb-mE

    ^ this clip that max posted says a lot to me. Kevin Love is livid. You rarely see that from a teammate.

    Watching Sexton do that on one possession and then watching Randle drive into a brick wall and turn the ball over on the next would surely be the cause of my death.

    “Here lies Strat, He beat brain surgery, the Covid epidemic, getting caught in the crossfire between a murderer and a cop in a NYC poolroom in the 70s etc.. but Randle and Sexton was just too much”. :-)

  90. As i said, i’m not totally sold on Sexton. I’d do it just because it seems to bring no harm to our “bigger” plans. But has any of you thought that this could just be a stepping stone to an even greater player? We just need to optimize his strengths, make him look good, and then we’re ready to roll the dice on a trade for a better player (attaching a 1RP).

  91. Step 1: trade for Sexton
    Step 2: sign Ball
    Step 3: cash-in future picks & Mitch in 3-way to acquire Simmons, 3rd team sends superstar to PHI

    Step 4: All PG lineup of Sexton/Ball/RJ/Randle/Simmons

    Step 5: ???
    Step 6: Profit

  92. **Quite a few teams could use a healthy Love. **

    Love is never healthy, perhaps why I prefer the Quick-Sex backcourt

    (I know I’m really setting myself up with this one… again)

  93. I love IQ as much as anyone here but please don’t compare him to Sexton cause he’s nowhere near as good offensively. IQ barely shot 40% from 2pt range while Sexton past 2 years has shot 50% and also gets to the FT line a decent amount. Plus while he doesn’t jack up a bunch of 3pters he still takes a few per game and shoots 38%.

    I’m not advocating trading for him but he was the 8th pick in the draft and if Frank or Knox were half the player Sexton is we’d be ecstatic and wouldn’t be so desperate for a guard like Sexton who can you know actually take and make shots.

  94. >>> we will have gobs of cap space left over even if we trade for Sexton. <<<

    Cap space to do what, exactly? Go all in on Sexton-Randle-RJ? I don’t want to do that.

    We need cap space in the future, not now.

  95. Hubert: Cap space to do what, exactly? Go all in on Sexton-Randle-RJ? I don’t want to do that.
    We need cap space in the future, not now.

    @Noble: i’m answering this one to help you keep your sanity. ;)
    I think Noble explained plain and simple that we can have max money next year, so what are you talking about? We won’t have space for a max in 2023 with Julius on a max contract and RJ’s cap hold anyway. I really don’t understand your point. You can question our move this summer being Sexton, that’s obviously debatable. But this move doesn’t change a thing in our plans.

  96. I’ll throw out some ideas for cap space, I don’t necessarily endorse them:

    (1) Sexton, Ball & re-sign 3 of Rose, Bullock, Burks & Noel

    (2) Sexton, Ball, take on big contract (Eric Gordon or Love???) to restock draft capital lost in Dexton deal

    (3) Sexton, Fournier (?), re-sign players

    (4) Sexton, Ball, DeRozan on a short term deal expiring before RJ puts us over lux tax (he’s been really damn good the last 3 years)

    (5) Sexton, and skate by on 1yr deals to chase max player 2022 (Hassan Whiteside/Cauley-Stein to replace Noel? Roll the dice with Otto Porter? McDermott?) Idk, who do people like on 1yr deals assuming Noel, Burks, Bullock are priced out?

  97. **Another thing going in favor of trading for Sexton… we can spend all year making jokes about sex! :D**

    Idk if we could Barrett (I’ll stop now)

  98. Going all-in on Sexton, JR, RJ is the road not just to Nowheresville, but to Palookaville. I can’t believe anyone on this otherwise basketball-savvy board would possibly suggest such a thing. Collin Sexton and Julius Randle in the same offense is a chemistry nightmare waiting to happen. Collin Sexton is not going to want to stand in the corner while Julius Randle pounds nails on the perimeter. It is not going to happen. Best to just dispense with the idea and the rationalizations altogether now, while there’s still a chance.

    The Knicks are lucky enough to have the quintessential anti-knucklehead in RJ Barrett. Why anyone would want to crowd him out with a chucklehead like Sexton just makes zero sense. You build around people like RJ Barrett and formulate things in their image; you do not displace the RJ Barretts of the world with knuckleheads.

    Keep the powder dry. There will be far better options in the not too distant future.

  99. No one is going all-in on Sexton, we’ll have lots of cap space and we can balk at the plan come next year’s offseason if it’s not according to plan. What’s so hard to understand?
    Sexton is a stepping stone (asset) for an even better player, or he’ll be option number 4 because we can sign a max player in 2022 to be our superstar (while keeping Julius, RJ and Sexton).
    I have no more ways to explain this.

  100. Collin Sexton is going to have no interest in being a fourth option. (*) The guy was an almost 30 USG guy last year.

    There is zero reason to take on the chore of trying to manage his expectations down at any price, much less the kind of price he thinks he’s worth. Why would the Knicks take on that chore? Makes zero sense.

    (*) And he’s not cut out to be a fourth option. He’s shitty at virtually every secondary skill.

  101. I really don’t understand your point.

    you’re talking about cap space without talking about what we get with it. So we have cap space. Whoopee. There’s no one available for $60mm that’s going to make RJ, Randle, and Sexton a great team. Not this summer, and most likely not next summer, either.

  102. You draft or acquire people like Mikal Bridges to be your fourth option, and he’s fantastically good at it. If the Knicks want to trade Obi and the 19 for Mikal, count me in — but something tells me that ain’t happening.

  103. Hubert: you’re talking about cap space without talking about what we get with it. So we have cap space. Whoopee. There’s no one available for $60mm that’s going to make RJ, Randle, and Sexton a great team. Not this summer, and most likely not next summer, either.

    And that assumes they aren’t going to extend Sexton (*) in this year’s window, a faulty assumption. (I hope everyone realizes that there’s a distinctly non-zero chance that we’re three months away from the Knicks giving a max extension to Collin Sexton, which could literally be Peak LOLKnicks.)

    (*) Or Randle for that matter, though I think he’ll tell the Knicks thanks but no thanks.

  104. I wouldn’t mind taking a flyer on Sexton, but the most I would trade for him would be one 1st round pick and then some leftovers. Like 21+Knox or the future Dallas pick+Knox+a future 2nd but no way do I include Toppin and no way do I include more than one 1st. Sexton is a gamble and while he could develop into a very nice player he could also remain a one-dimensional scorer who plays very little defense while becoming very expensive.

    If we really want Sexton he will be a free agent next summer and it looks like Cleveland doesn’t want to sign him to a big contract.

    I still think Toppin showed us enough that we should be shopping Randle while his value is at an all-time high, Randle got exposed a bit in the playoffs, and if his 3pt shot regress even a tiny bit he loses much of his value to us. Toppin might not be the solution at PF but I really don’t think Randle is either so I would rather grab some assets for Randle and roll the dice on Toppin.

  105. If the Knicks acquire Sexton he should be the 1st or 2nd option on offense not the 4th.

  106. Our offense struggled so badly last season that I’m starting to warm to the idea of Sexton. It was painful to watch us try to score at times.

    So count me as a possible yes to Quick Sex without Love more Scoring and Balling.

  107. Even Clyde’s backcourt wasn’t up for the task of having Sex with the Ball.

    Btw I voted yes but I prefer to go all in on MJ and LBJ. They’d be better use of max contracts.

  108. Hubert: you’re talking about cap space without talking about what we get with it. So we have cap space. Whoopee. There’s no one available for $60mm that’s going to make RJ, Randle, and Sexton a great team. Not this summer, and most likely not next summer, either.

    Well, for starters you’ll have 60M to bring the 1-year guys… maybe 4 guys at 15M or even only 3 at 20M. I think that’ll get you the players you wanted, to have a good season again.
    Then you’ll have around 34M next year, which only prevents you from a veteran max guy, but if one becomes available we can reach that space keeping Julius, RJ, Sexton and Quick. And maybe keeping Mitch, renouncing the cap hold first, and then offering him the mid level. For a team like this: (PG) superstar, (SG) Sexton, (SF) RJ, (PF) Julius, (C) Mitch, with Quick of the bench.

  109. He’s worth a flier giving up Knox and 21 and not extending him and making him actually prove himself and seeing how the parts fit. Beyond that, no.

    None of that is in the cards.

  110. Z-man: Hey cybersoze the Knicks had your boy from Belgium in for a workout last week, maybe he could satisfy tnfh’s Poku fetish…

    Oh, that’s good to know, thanks.
    I like him, but i thought he’d be available for our pick 58. Seems like he’s rising, and if that’s the case i don’t think he’s a great bet for our picks. Maybe if we can buy a pick in the 40s if he’s still there? New Orleans has a lot of 2nd rounders, i think, and with the pandemic they might prefer the money.

  111. No one is going all-in on Sexton, we’ll have lots of cap space and we can balk at the plan come next year’s offseason if it’s not according to plan. What’s so hard to understand?

    Maybe you’ll have better luck getting this across than me?

  112. BigBlueAL: If the Knicks acquire Sexton he should be the 1st or 2nd option on offense not the 4th.

    You’re right, i didn’t make myself clear, i was thinking about being your 4th best player. That’s what he’ll need to be to make the plan work. Then the max guy we can sign in 2022 should be a guy that is more interested in defense and distribute, so on offense we’ll have Julius as the main option, but even him took a backseat and piled a lot of assists when the team was scoring, and then RJ and Sexton as the secondary options.
    The max guy i’m thinking about is Jimmy, he can take a backseat to more offensive players, and with his relationship with Thibs, DRose and Taj, maybe he comes here in 2022.
    And now that i was writing this, there’s a max player whose value deflated a lot lately that is all defense and make plays for others… it’d actually be a good idea to trade for him. And he’s young and on our timeline.
    Picture in your minds a team of: Ben Simmons, Sexton, RJ, Julius and Mitch.

  113. I’ll co-sign for Sexton and Ball if the price if reasonable, but I’m not sure about Sexton without Ball and if it’s just Ball we still need a scorer.

  114. I think some people are maybe underestimating a bit how good Sexton is on offense for his age. He was 60th in OBPM (+1.9) last year – of the 59 players better than him, 2 are younger than him, Doncic and Haliburton. A few others are also in their age 22 season but a bit older – Tatum, MPJ and Trae. None of that provides any guarantee obviously (and some of those guys are a lot better than him right now) but combining that pretty elite combination of young age, good production and how positive his trajectory has been on offense…I think there’s a lot more to dream on than some people are crediting. The biggest reason to trade for him is because you think there’s a chance that over the next 3-4 years as he moves into his prime he blossoms into one of the best offensive players in the entire league and opportunities to trade for that kind of player are pretty rare. It’s a high upside gamble in my eyes.

  115. Some good points made in defense of Sexton. I just can’t get there. Maybe it’s the best of a lot of bad options but I hate to go get a guy who can’t or won’t play defense.

  116. Collin Sexton is going to have no interest in being a fourth option. (*) The guy was an almost 30 USG guy last year.

    I’m sorry but this statement is so full of assumptions about Sexton and his personality and what he wants. You have no freaking idea what he wants. Players want to play on good teams and they want to win basketball games. I mean sure there are some dudes who’d rather chuck on shitty teams and put up empty stats but for the most part, the idea that players like that is so far off base. Sexton has played for shitty Cavs teams his whole NBA career. You honestly think he’s gonna refuse to lower his usage for Randle and RJ if he goes to a team that was the 4th seed last year, on the rise with a good coach in New York City?

  117. His OBPM at age 21 was 0.3; IQs at 21 was 1.5 at over 25 USG and IQs a better defender with a higher emotional and basketball IQ. There’s just zero reason to plug him in for what they should be seeing in IQ and if they’re falling prey to the minutes illusion when it was their current coach who caused the illusion, it’s even sillier — bordering on Curly, Larry, Moe.

  118. Oh, so you’ve seen the results of their respective “emotional IQ” tests? Where did you find this information?

    Just admit you don’t like Sexton. No need to add your BS pseudo psychology on top of it.

  119. swiftandabundant: I’m sorry but this statement is so full of assumptions about Sexton and his personality and what he wants. You have no freaking idea what he wants. Players want to play on good teams and they want to win basketball games. I mean sure there are some dudes who’d rather chuck on shitty teams and put up empty stats but for the most part, the idea that players like that is so far off base. Sexton has played for shitty Cavs teams his whole NBA career. You honestly think he’s gonna refuse to lower his usage for Randle and RJ if he goes to a team that was the 4th seed last year, on the rise with a good coach in New York City?

    Yeah, we always kind of default to the “YOU CAN’T READ HIS MIND” gambit at the point where personality and IQ and the like enter into the picture, so it’s to be expected.

    Yeah, I don’t think he’s going to defer to Julius Randle and the “fourth seed,” no I don’t. I do have some freaking idea of what he wants by watching him and reading about him (and by the fact that CLE wants to dump him). And I’ve seen the Collin Sextons of the world in the association come and go for a few years now and there are some patterns there. So shoot me.

    And IQ was a better player on the floor than he was literally every time they played against each other and I watched that. Yeah, we can’t read too much into straighforward matchups, but no one would watch the games and then go, “Ooh, we just have to upgrade from that guy wearing number 5 on the Knicks to that guy wearing number 2 in the funny looking red uniforms and then we’re on the launching pad.” No one would say that. People like to not say things that don’t make sense and that doesn’t make sense.

  120. **Some good points made in defense of Sexton. I just can’t get there. Maybe it’s the best of a lot of bad options but I hate to go get a guy who can’t or won’t play defense.**

    This is one of the more concerning aspects to me, but I’d also say no one considered RJ, Randle, or Burks a good defender before last year. Maybe not as bad as Sexton, but they all were considered bad.

    Playing for a decent team and lowering his usage might help Sexton’s defense. Look at RJs improvement after being a bad defender at Duke, having sky-high usage at Duke probably masked RJs defense.

    In Thibs I Trust (the defense)

  121. I just find a lot of this stuff to be so hard to actually verify. Here is something I’ve noticed about team chemistry.

    Players can start out the season liking each other. They can be best of buddies. Once the L’s start piling up, the relationships get strained. Tyson Chandler and Melo got along fine during the 54 win season. The next year, not so much.

    I mean, there were reports of Kobe getting into fist fights with teammates during the years they won championships. Jordan was a complete asshole at times to his teammates.

    Its show business, not show friends. Sure, its great if they all like each other but would this team last year have all gotten along if they were losing night after night? Nope. That’s when you start questioning what this teammate is or isn’t doing right. I love Quickley but he seems super cocky. Would that be endearing to Cavs fans this last season or his teammates as it was to us?

  122. swiftandabundant:
    Oh, so you’ve seen the results of their respective “emotional IQ” tests? Where did you find this information?

    Just admityou don’t like Sexton. No need to add your BS pseudo psychology on top of it.

    Why does Cleveland want to rid themselves of the guy?

  123. IQ & Sexton aren’t mutually exclusive.

    IQ was really good last year.
    Sexton looks like he could be really good too.

    IQ isn’t a giant, but has enough size to play the 2

    Comparing H2H matches isn’t exactly fair when one player is on the 3rd best defense/4-seed & the other is playing with Garland & a bunch of G-Leaguers.

  124. E, all merc’d out: Why does Cleveland want to rid themselves of the guy?

    That’s easy, they have the 3rd pick and will select one of the Jalens. That’s the only reason Sexton became expendable, and that’s the reason he’ll come cheap, because teams know the Cavs need to do the deal.

  125. To add on, pretty sure IQ played his best ball next to another ball handler or 2 in Rose and Burks. Sexton seemed to play better next to Garland this past year. I see the 2 as complementary pieces because neither is a pure PG and they can help each other by getting the defense off balance.

    Plus, I’m thinking Vilodza will end up more of a SG with how he’s been shooting in the Arg exhibitions but can provide some extra passing in lineups with IQ or Sexton

  126. Drafting a point or a wing guard at 3 doesn’t and shouldn’t make an existing combo guard expendable, much less cheaply expendable. When you draft a good young player, you typically want to add him to other good young players.

    Red flags a-wavin’.

  127. Positives:
    He can score, for a team that needs scorers.
    He’s young and shown improvement every year.
    Reasonable upside potential on many things he’s not good at yet.
    He won’t break the bank.
    Negatives:
    Short.
    Doesn’t play a lick of D.
    Doesn’t pass much or well (doesn’t solve the pure PG hole).
    Would potentially limit IQ’s minutes.
    Signs of being a dick.
    We could lose Obi.
    Could break the bank later.
    Bets:
    Thibs will teach him D.
    Being on a decent team with mentors will encourage passing.
    Being on a decent team with mentors will solve dickishness.
    Continued improvements on O.

    Missing anything?

  128. when you get a shooting guard who is that short and that bad defensively, it makes team construction that much harder. Now, not only do you need to find a good PG, but you need to find one who can cover for Sexton on D. That’s not easy to do.

  129. I don’t think Sexton is far away from filling the Rose role. He already had a better OBPM & TS% than Rose last year. Sexton isn’t the passer that Rose is, but improved last year while playing half his time off the ball.

    Thibs wants a slasher at PG and Sexton fits that pretty well. I think it’s pretty clear from last year we could use a slasher at PG.

    If you just stand on the fact that Sexton is bad now, you’re not really disagreeing with the pro-Sexton faction. I don’t love what Sexton is, I love that he can be had for cheap and has potential. If he didn’t have red flags I wouldn’t want to pay the price for him.

  130. Sheesh lol..who knew Colin Sexton would be so polarizing?

  131. This is really just the “do you max RJ?” discussion over again with a couple tweaks

  132. Sometimes I wonder if the Knicks FO puts these rumors out there just to troll E…

  133. Early Bird:
    I don’t think Sexton is far away from filling the Rose role. He already had a better OBPM & TS% than Rose last year. Sexton isn’t the passer that Rose is, but improved last year while playing half his time off the ball.

    Thibs wants a slasher at PG and Sexton fits that pretty well. I think it’s pretty clear from last year we could use a slasher at PG.

    If you just stand on the fact that Sexton is bad now, you’re not really disagreeing with the pro-Sexton faction. I don’t love what Sexton is, I love that he can be had for cheap and has potential. If he didn’t have red flags I wouldn’t want to pay the price for him.

    As I said earlier, Sexton’s game reminds me of an unrefined version of the current Derric Rose’s game. And like Derric Rose, he’d be fine on a 7-digit AAV contract. The problem is whether he’s worth more than that. My vote is NO.

  134. Early Bird: If you just stand on the fact that Sexton is bad now, you’re not really disagreeing with the pro-Sexton faction. I don’t love what Sexton is, I love that he can be had for cheap and has potential. If he didn’t have red flags I wouldn’t want to pay the price for him.

    Exactly this. The red flags are the reason why a 22-year old guard who’s already an excellent offensive player is reportedly potentially available for a bit of flotsam, a bit of jetsam, and a late 1st rounder. If you want to trade for a 22-year old who’s already a superstar…having some good blackmail material on Mark Cuban is probably your best option. The fact that it’s a risk is a positive to me – we’re in the right stage of team building to be taking some big risks. I’d rather do this then punt every single future asset we have at a 31 year-old.

  135. when you get a shooting guard who is that short and that bad defensively, it makes team construction that much harder. Now, not only do you need to find a good PG, but you need to find one who can cover for Sexton on D. That’s not easy to do.

    Clearly, the answer is to bring back Frank and play him at PG.

  136. Hubert:
    when you get a shooting guard who is that short and that bad defensively, it makes team construction that much harder. Now, not only do you need to find a good PG, but you need to find one who can cover for Sexton on D. That’s not easy to do.

    It’d just be another round-peg-square-hole situation like JR where you then have to make a bunch of compensations. (*) Better to just take normalcy.

    (*) Hint alert: The compensations they make you make are a big reason why the JRs and the Collin Sextons of the world become available so “cheaply.”

  137. There are plenty of reasons to dislike Colin Sexton, but the Cavs want to get rid of him is not one of them.

  138. Isn’t a 22 yo guard who can score pretty efficiently at a high usage and can be acquired without coming close to emptying the vault of assets exactly the type of player the Knicks should be looking to acquire?

    I think the problem is too many people here want the Knicks to wait apparently forever for the perfect player in his prime to become available which is a bit of a fantasy.

    Again not saying Sexton is the exact player the Knicks should acquire but I certainly agree and am encouraged that the Knicks are looking to acquire players that young with that type of offensive potential that isn’t going to cost a ton in assets.

  139. **Clearly, the answer is to bring back Frank and play him at PG.**

    Insert Kronk “It’s all coming together” gif

  140. DudeInKnicksTown:
    Frank would be the perfect complement to Sexton. Wouldn’t he? :)

    Yes, but we’d have to deal with 4 more years of arguing about Frank’s actual value.

    Lonzo Ball.

  141. Hubert:
    when you get a shooting guard who is that short and that bad defensively, it makes team construction that much harder. Now, not only do you need to find a good PG, but you need to find one who can cover for Sexton on D. That’s not easy to do.

    Lonzo Ball

  142. Deeefense: Yes, but we’d have to deal with 4 more years of arguing about Frank’s actual value.

    Lonzo Ball.

    True, but we’d have to overpay for Ball and then send assets to the Pelicans. Frank would just cost us good will.

  143. How many SGs 22 or younger in the NBA would you say are better than Sexton? SGA is way better, but after that nobody really jumps out at me. So the issue for me is how bad is his defense?

  144. Bobby Portis is a cult figure in Milwaukee. It’s kind of hilarious.

    In addition to the lack of defense I would also love it if Sexton had a little higher ast rate

  145. DRed:
    How many SGs 22 or younger in the NBA would you say are better than Sexton?SGA is way better, but after that nobody really jumps out at me.So the issue for me is how bad is his defense?

    Depends on what position you think they play, but:

    geo: RJ >>>> collin sexton

    immanuel quickley >>>> collin sexton

  146. i get it, collin is a sexy and increasingly more efficient scorer, but – we need a point guard who can make the game offensively easier for their teammates, maybe a guy like graham or mcconnell who’ll give you 7 to 8 assists per 36…

    it’s crazy, graham will probably get an average annual salary around 16 to 20 million per year – i don’t think tj mcconnell will get offered much more than 8 million a year, maybe for like two years…talk about undervalued assets…sign mcconnell, get assists, get defense, get good value today, we’ll see if he can learn to get to the rim and score…forget about sexting, who’s most likely gonna be like old zach levine for another few years…

  147. Sorry, I had better “on offense” in there but I accidentally deleted it when I was editing the comment.

  148. The best thing about this series is the faces PJ Tucker makes after a foul is called on him.

  149. **Sorry, I had better “on offense” in there but I accidentally deleted it when I was editing the comment.**

    Lol, yeah I figured. And as I’ve said elsewhere in this thread I think playing on a terrible Cavs team and accounting for 99% of the offense there, and not playing for Thibs explains a lot of it.

    So I think we’re on the same page there

  150. The question for me can be put in another way: would you trade the 21st pick and Obi for 22 year old Donovan Mitchell? Because that is what Sexton was this season, almost pretty much the exact same numbers, but with better efficiency and slightly worse rebounding.

    I guess most people here would make that trade, and yet the perception is that Sexton is somehow worse than his numbers suggest because he’s been stuck in a garbage team playing for 4 different coaches in 3 seasons. Booker was also a empty calories scorer until he actually got a team around him and people have started singing his praises.

    The most important metric for a young player is improvement over years, like tnfh and others remarked, and Sexton has improved consistently and in very meaningful ways. I’m still not enamored with the idea of paying him a max eventually, but the guy is far better than some of you are making him out to be, and we don’t even have to actually pay and keep him until next season.

    If the trade is actually just Obi, Knox and the 21st, I’m doing it. Let him play for a year, see how well he meshes with RJ, Randle etc and give him a chance. If he regresses and actually becomes Andrew Wiggins, than we can sign and trade him away or let him go and all we lost is a late first and a middling prospect in Toppin.

  151. Also, why the hell should we care about why the Cavs want to trade him? Why would we ever care about the talent evaluation abilities of a terrible franchise who’s never been good at doing it even when they had LeBron freaking James? Bad franchises make bad moves all the time for stupid reasons, this might just be another one in a long list.

  152. Mike Vorkunov mentioned in an article today that Brock Aller was in Cleveland when they drafted Sexton so if he is one of the front office members pushing for acquiring Sexton would that make some of you feel better about possibly trading for him?

  153. bidiong the not so great:
    Must suck that Phoenix is overpaying Booker right now.

    Don’t stop there, the top 3 teams in the west are all really upset about overpaying Donovan Mitchell, Booker, and Jamal Murray. Sucks that players stop developing at 22.

  154. I think the problem is too many people here want the Knicks to wait apparently forever for the perfect player in his prime to become available which is a bit of a fantasy.

    i think it’s really just about waiting until next summer to back up the truck for beal or lavine and picking a better pg to fit within that squad than sexton…. those guys are better than sexton right now no question…

    How many SGs 22 or younger in the NBA would you say are better than Sexton? SGA is way better, but after that nobody really jumps out at me. So the issue for me is how bad is his defense?

    i don’t think this is the right question to ask… we’re not restricted by picking only 22 yo’s… we have the full universe of players to choose from… would you rather have sexton or beal? oh you want him as your pg? ok do you want sexton vs lowry? sexton vs dinwiddie? sexton vs (insert pg) …

    how many teams with 6ft1 sg’s have made deep playoff runs? it’s just the iverson sixers right? what kind of pg do you need to fit offensively and keep up defensively for that to work out? that’s a tough nut to crack which is why these short gunner types so often come off the bench… which is why the upside is probably limited…. the only way it isn’t is if sexton’s efficiency takes another major couple of leaps and it’s really tough for a short guy to get something like a 55% 2p rate which is why it isn’t a good bet….

  155. Mitchell had better advanced stats than Sexton at age 22, and in their respective 3rd seasons. His defensive numbers are substantially better. They are not the same player.

  156. Z-man: Mitchell had better advanced stats than Sexton at age 22, and in their respective 3rd seasons. His defensive numbers are substantially better. They are not the same player.

    Uhhh… no he didn’t? Unless you mean DBPM, but Sexton doesn’t have Rudy Gobert playing behind him. Sexton’s OBPM was higher, his TS% was substantially higher, and he averaged more assists than Mitchell.

    djphan: the only way it isn’t is if sexton’s efficiency takes another major couple of leaps and it’s really tough for a short guy to get something like a 55% 2p rate which is why it isn’t a good bet….

    None of Mitch, Murray or Booker hit 2pt shots at a 55% rate. So I’m going to disagree.

  157. Some people here are apparently under the impression that acquiring Sexton takes them out of the 2022 FA class which is just not true. The Knicks can acquire Sexton this summer and still sign Beal or Lavine next summer.

    I’ve mentioned before I have no problem whatsoever if the Knicks basically stand pat this summer and put all their eggs into the 2022 summer basket but at that point the Knicks are gonna have to do something or else let Randle go and basically start all over and tank which even though some here would apparently love that strategy the current front office would definitely not.

  158. None of Mitch, Murray or Booker hit 2pt shots at a 55% rate. So I’m going to disagree.

    well in the case of mitchell and murray.. they’re just across the board better…. it’s just easier for taller guys to fill up the box score more efficiently….

    sexton’s already unique in that fashion… but even with lou williams you could be a 4-5 bpm guy and still be no better than a bench piece if you can’t play pg…. do you want lou williams or do you want jrue holiday? you pick holiday almost every single time because you can’t start williams in most roster scenarios right? and lou williams is better statistically too right?

    so how good does sexton need to be that you can start him and expect to make it deep? the threshold’s a lot higher than for all those names then right?

  159. Some people here are apparently under the impression that acquiring Sexton takes them out of the 2022 FA class which is just not true. The Knicks can acquire Sexton this summer and still sign Beal or Lavine next summer.

    so that means he’s your pg because you can’t acquire any other pg on a multiyear deal then right?

    if it doesn’t work out… then you need to acquire a pg in order to lure lavine and beal onto this team…. and as bad as this year’s fa pg’s are.. next year’s is even worse! unless you’re pining for patrick beverley and marcus smart…

  160. Klay Thompson is 6’6″, he didn’t have a better offensive season than Sexton until age 24. He didn’t have a higher 2p% than Sexton until age 25. He’s never had a 2p% as high as 55%.

    CJ McCollum is 6’3″, he didn’t have a better offensive season until he was 24. He’s only surpassed .500 2p% 3 times in his career. One was this year, at .509 2p%, one point higher than Sexton’s 2p%.

    Beal is 6’3″, he didn’t have a better offensive season until he was 23. He’s never had a 55% from 2pt season, he did get close one year at .548 when he was 25.

    Jaylen Brown didn’t have a better offensive season until he was 24. He’s never had a 55% from 2 season. He came close at .543 last season at 23 (but again was worse overall by OBPM until this year at 24).

  161. ok so we’re saying that sexton will need to develop as a shooter as klay thompson.. .mccollum.. beal and brown to fulfill the kind of upside that we’ll need to make this work? is that what you’re saying?

    because if it is.. that seems pretty far fetched considering he’s significantly shorter than all of them and not nearly the same shooting pedigree as any one of them either…

  162. I would think that yes Sexton will be acquired expected to be the starting PG next season. I don’t think the Knicks necessarily need a PG who’s going to have the ball in his hands on every possession and is expected to get 8-9 asts per game.

    With Randle, RJ and Sexton they all can initiate offense. Sexton averaged 4.4 asts last season while playing 57% of his minutes along side Garland so Sexton as the majority of the time playing SG was able to average over 4 asts per game while scoring 24 ppg, that’s not exactly an easy thing to do and not many players can do so.

    Again it seems like I’m a huge Sexton fan which I’m not and I could care less if they don’t acquire him but it’s ridiculous already reading here all the negative reaction to just the thought of acquiring him.

  163. djphan: well in the case of mitchell and murray.. they’re just across the board better…. it’s just easier for taller guys to fill up the box score more efficiently….

    Not at age 22. Murray OBPM 2.0, Sexton 1.9. Mitchell 1.2 OBPM.

    Sexton was better than Mitchell at pretty much everything except rebounding and having Rudy Gobert behind him.

  164. With Randle, RJ and Sexton they all can initiate offense. Sexton averaged 4.4 asts last season while playing 57% of his minutes along side Garland so Sexton as the majority of the time playing SG was able to average over 4 asts per game while scoring 24 ppg, that’s not exactly an easy thing to do and not many players can do so.

    and again.. those 4.4 assists came along with 2.7 turnovers…

    i’m not saying that this is definitely not going to work out.. but i think looking at it in a vacuum is the wrong way to think about it… there’s a roster fit that makes it awkward to make a pg who never played pg try to play pg on a team that needs a pg…. sexton or randle or rj could step up and play that role and i actually don’t think it’s the worst idea in the world…. it’s nice out of the box kind of thinking in an offseason with not a lot of great solutions for pg…

    but it’s not some slam dunk that it works and there absolutely is a downside of it not working out…. it’s actually a pretty significant one… every decision from here on out needs to add to the core… and the move at pg is needed to lure one of the free agents… i just don’t think sexton is the right choice… but it’s not like other choices are guaranteed to work out either… so it’s a tough choice in any case…

  165. djphan: ok so we’re saying that sexton will need to develop as a shooter as klay thompson.. .mccollum.. beal and brown to fulfill the kind of upside that we’ll need to make this work? is that what you’re saying?

    because if it is.. that seems pretty far fetched considering he’s significantly shorter than all of them and not nearly the same shooting pedigree as any one of them either…

    I’m refuting your claim that a SG needs to shoot 55% from 2pt range, because literally no SG appears to do it.

    I think it’s notable that the best offensive SGs in the league were not as good as Sexton at age 22. If you had decided on their future at that point in time, then you miss out on some very talented players.

    Sexton may not develop as like them, but he’s been really damn good for a SG at such a young age.

  166. Not at age 22. Murray OBPM 2.0, Sexton 1.9. Mitchell 1.2 OBPM.

    is there a reason you’re only using obpm?

  167. Definitely agree djphan, it’s a tough choice and I’ve mentioned in the past I don’t envy the position the Knicks front office is in. They have a ton of cap space and some nice young assets but they also basically have 1 year to take advantage of that before they have to make some tough decisions and this summer’s free agents are not all that appealing.

    I honestly have no clue what the Knicks should definitively do, this summer really is a fascinating time for the Knicks.

  168. djphan: and again.. those 4.4 assists came along with 2.7 turnovers…

    And Donovan Mitchell’s 4.2 assists came with 2.8 TO’s.

    The more I look at it, the more it seems like the argument against Sexton is that he’s the one PG or SG in the league that won’t improve at age 22. He’s not guaranteed to improve, but neither were any of the other guys.

  169. Early Bird: Not at age 22. Murray OBPM 2.0, Sexton 1.9. Mitchell 1.2 OBPM.

    Sexton was better than Mitchell at pretty much everything except rebounding and having Rudy Gobert behind him.

    Thanks, exactly. Also, Mitchell is literally 6’1″ which is the same listed height as Sexton. There are plenty of reasons to be careful about Sexton without having to ignore the fact that he has improved and delivered good production this season. I’m really not sure if he’s a guy who I want on our team long term, but I see zero reasons to want a guy like Mitchell or Murray on your team and be so adamantly against Sexton at the same time.

    Also that Giannis block is one for the ages, damn.

  170. Sexton would be a fine addition to our Knicks, but what will it take to acquire him and will the Knicks be able to make the best offer? The rumored Obi, Knox, and 19 offer seems rather underwhelming. Hard to see any of those three assets cracking the Cavs starting lineup. Maybe the Cavs take it, but it seems unlikely.

  171. I’m refuting your claim that a SG needs to shoot 55% from 2pt range, because literally no SG appears to do it.

    you misunderstand…. of course that’s not the bar… but that’s probably the bar for someone like sexton to make it work as a starting sg…. he is SIX FOOT ONE…. 6 ft 3 sg’s have a tough time as is making it as starting guards in the league…. the bar is even higher for someone like sexton…. and that’s usually why guys like them unless they hit mccollum or beal or mitchell levels of production it really puts a strain on the lineup from a defensive perspective…. and sexton might be on par with them on the offensive side… but he’s WAY behind defensively… both in the box score and actual on the court eye test stuff unless you look forward to matching up sexton vs james harden in a 7 game series…

    that’s why undersized guards that aren’t pg’s but shoot well but not incredibly well tend to come off the bench…. lou williams is the quintessential short gunner and he put up age 22 seasons better than all those guys you mentioned too AND he put up multiple 3+bpm seasons in his career.. but he’s always been a 6th man… these shorter guys have it tough and the bar is higher…

    and for sexton the bar is even higher than that.. which is why he needs to surpass these guys offensively.. which is a REALLY high bar…

  172. Mitchell is literally 6’1?

    mitchell is not 6ft 1… he’s a little over 6ft 1 without shoes but he’s 6ft 3 with shoes as per his combine measurements… he also has almost a 6ft 10 wingspan…

  173. collin sexton = short people…sports are one of the last refuges for dogging folks on their physical characteristics…

    not only is he short, he’s got t-rex arms too…and he’s got like a minus 19 dbpm…

    just say no…

    wow, 6.4 fta per game, that’s not bad, he seems to be a pretty good shooter, if he can get over .40% from 3…him and ball together would be an interesting backcourt…

    if those two together actually worked out, we’d be set for a good minute…

    we were second to the bottom in possessions per game (99.6), sexton will shoot the ball in at least half of those possessions…

  174. **you misunderstand…. of course that’s not the bar… but that’s probably the bar for someone like sexton to make it work as a starting sg**

    Okay, that makes more sense. He doesn’t shoot as many 3s as those guys, but it’s not like he’s a bad shooter either or he can’t take more 3s or continue to improve his passing.

    Nor do I think a 22yo playing for a shitty Cavs team is necessarily giving it his all on defense. Maybe his physical limitations will be too much, but defense is difficult to judge at times. Again, Randle, RJ, and Burks were never considered good defenders.

    I’ll stick with Sexton has played extremely well for a 22yo SG and I think he’s a decent wager to improve. If we end up with Sexton, Beal/LaVine, RJ, and Randle we may not have a true PG but that’s a lot of players who are pretty good at passing and scoring. Not every offense needs a true PG.

    I appreciate you pushing back on my claims, it’s how we learn

  175. i was dreaming about putting derozan as a pg and just jamming as much talent under the cap as you can…. so sexton as pg isn’t too far off that.. . but i think what makes sexton a problem is that he’s pretty ball dominant and just not used to ever not being a focal point… it’s interesting to think about tho because there’s not a lot of great options these next couple of years and there’s some urgency to the pg question….

    but sexton as sg… i don’t think there’s a scenario where that works out well for us for the aforementioned reasons… and he’s a sure bet to improve even more and i still think that…

  176. I’ve never seen Collin Sexton play, and have never looked at his stat page on Basketball Reference. I’m not even sure if I’ve ever heard of him before the recent rumblings. Maybe he’s good. Maybe his size doesn’t matter. Maybe he deserves better than soaking up usage on a terrible Cleveland team. But I’ll tell you this: the Should We Trade For Collin Sexton thread is a lot less exciting to masterbate to than the Should We Trade For Damian Lillard thread.

  177. @Strat,

    **“Here lies Strat, He beat brain surgery, the Covid epidemic, getting caught in the crossfire between a murderer and a cop in a NYC poolroom in the 70s etc.. but Randle and Sexton was just too much”. :-)**

    I disagree with you a lot about basketball, but I do find you insightful.

    Most importantly, I aspire to live as interesting a life as you someday

  178. Re: Collin Sexton

    He’s a CAA guy and he signed his first contract with… Leon Rose

    https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2018/04/collin-sexton-signs-with-agents-ahead-of-nba-draft.html

    plus as Big Blue Al noticed Brock Aller was in Cleveland when they drafted him.

    It’s a match made in Heaven.

    To be fair this is not necessarily bad, they must have a lot of inside informations , right? *

    (I’m not changing my “NO” vote, only trying to assess the situation from all angles, despite my “negative” opinion on the player)

    * Knicks Fan PTSD:
    noooooo, it’s really baaaaaaaad ! Locusts! Frogs! Hailstorms! Water changing into blood!
    :-)

  179. I know NBA writers need something to fill their columns but all kind of rumors are swirling around the Knicks and some are very alarming (Schroeder on a S&T with the lakers? OMG…)

    I’m burning candles to keep up my FO faith, but I need a new mantra: forget the Hoops Rumors site…

  180. I guess the stumbling block for me is that a) I think Obi is going to be a good NBA player and b) I think players better than Sexton will be available at #19. I don’t see Donovan Mitchell in Sexton at all. That’s partly an eye-test thing, but as eyes go, mine are pretty good.

  181. Donnie’s masturbation options got me thinking…

    maybe Sexton is being considered as a piece to use in a 3 way trade for a player that fits better. I would imagine a team like Portland or Chicago is more excited about a 22 year old Sexton than a 23 year old Toppin.

  182. Hubert:
    Donnie’s masturbation options got me thinking…
    maybe Sexton is being considered as a piece to use in a 3 way trade for a player that fits better. I would imagine a team like Portland or Chicago is more excited about a 22 year old Sexton than a 23 year old Toppin.

    Bingo! Have you been reading my comments? :P
    But has any of you thought that this could just be a stepping stone to an even greater player?

  183. Max: I know NBA writers need something to fill their columns but all kind of rumors are swirling around the Knicks and some are very alarming (Schroeder on a S&T with the lakers? OMG…)
    I’m burning candles to keep up my FO faith, but I need a new mantra: forget the Hoops Rumors site…

    Stay cool… last year it was a given that the Knicks would be the dumb franchise that’d take on the Westbrook contract… and it didn’t happen. Then the Knicks would be the dumb franchise that’d overpay for Hayward… didn’t happen also.
    Until further notice, i’m trusting this FO, i think they make wise decisions, don’t get into bidding wars, they simply have a plan and then they try to implement it in the best way possible given the opportunities out there.

  184. Bruno Almeida: If the trade is actually just Obi, Knox and the 21st, I’m doing it. Let him play for a year, see how well he meshes with RJ, Randle etc and give him a chance. If he regresses and actually becomes Andrew Wiggins, than we can sign and trade him away or let him go and all we lost is a late first and a middling prospect in Toppin.

    It’s exactly this.
    And welcome back, Bruno! How’s things in Brazil?

  185. Part of me wonders if Trier would be interested in a return. That’s how bad we need shot creation lol.

  186. Regarding Sexton, I think its helpful to think of the consequences of not doing it. Other options will come along, correct? Seems like this is not a great fit and forcing something to happen in this situation carries risk. Sexton, Randle, and RJ is not a championship core. I think it would be wiser to collect assets (including Obi and the guys we will draft) that can be traded to bring in an impact guy. That is, unless you consider Sexton an asset/future trade piece to make that happen.

  187. Regarding Sexton, I think its helpful to think of the consequences of not doing it. Other options will come along, correct?

    I guess it depends what you mean by this. Obviously, at some point a better player(s) than Sexton will become available, but…

    1) will that happen before the summer of 2022, when we have to pay Randle and/or Mitch?

    2) will we be able to get them for something in the realm of 19/Toppin/Knox?

    As others have said if Sexton didn’t have holes in his game we wouldn’t be having this conversation, but this is an opportunity to add a good, young player with upside to the team and still maintain a lot of flexibility. I think some people are making a mistake in viewing it as anything more than that, e.g. a declaration that we’re building around Julius Randle.

    That doesn’t make it an automatic yes, but it’s worth thinking about how often that opportunity comes around.

    The least convincing argument I’ve seen against the trade is that the Cavs aren’t high on him. They simply can’t afford to go all-in on their current team by paying both Sexton and Allen, lucked out in the lottery, and oh yeah, have never demonstrated they know how to do anything smart other than “sign LeBron James.”

    The most convincing argument I’ve seen against the trade is that we’d be acquiring a 6’1″ guy and almost certainly would still need to get a point guard. I guess I’m just not terribly convinced this matters much. When you look at the top teams in the league, there’s not a clear pattern when it comes to having a “pure” point guard. Get a lot of good players who are willing to share the ball and I think good things will happen.

    If in a worst-case scenario we have to bring Sexton off the bench, there are worse players to have, even on an expensive contract, than a prime Lou Williams facsimile.

  188. If he regresses and actually becomes Andrew Wiggins, than we can sign and trade him away or let him go and all we lost is a late first and a middling prospect in Toppin.

    this part I do not agree with at all. The cost of Sexton not working out is very high. Obi & our first could both be good rotation players for years. Or they could be valuable trade chips.

    If you make this trade, do it bc you’re sure Sexton is your guy. That’s too high a price for a test run.

  189. Skip Bayless exists to draw clicks and shares. Look! It’s working. Throw him and SAS into the fucking ocean.

  190. And also, do we want to sign Kawhi if he’s not gonna play for most of next year, and has had this many injuries of late? Obviously, healthy Kawhi is the best Knick since at least Patrick Ewing, but…

  191. Z-man: I don’t see Donovan Mitchell in Sexton at all. That’s partly an eye-test thing

    This is probably the first time in the history of KB arguments that the stats say Yes, while the eye test says No.

    I usually try to combine the two and I also don’t see a top 20 player in Sexton, but he’s a very capable scorer with upside. Even if I didn’t think his contract at the max would be movable, for Obi and the 19 or 21 it’s a no brainer.

  192. To me the intriguing part of the Sexton interest is that we now have an FO that we know is good (or at least tries to be) at multiple things–scouting draft prospects, accumulating assets, looking at trades, passing on overpay FAs, and most importantly player development.

    If the trade for Sexton happened for let’s say Obi and a 1RP I’d give them the benefit of the doubt as it would say something about what they think about Obi and IQ’s year 1 to year 2 leap. Likewise if a trade didn’t happen I would give them the benefit of the doubt that they declined because they think they have a more viable plan.

    Such a breath of fresh air to know a panicky Steve Mills is not calling the shots.

  193. The Honorable Cock Jowles: Skip Bayless exists to draw clicks and shares. Look! It’s working.

    Looks like i should skip the fine humor. :P I thought the emoji would let you guys know that i was joking, but i failed. :|

    Alan: And also, do we want to sign Kawhi if he’s not gonna play for most of next year, and has had this many injuries of late? Obviously, healthy Kawhi is the best Knick since at least Patrick Ewing, but…

    Well, if this was a real opportunity, i think i’d sign him. He’s beyond good, and so you sign him and pray to God hoping he’ll be healthy at least 50% of the time.

  194. Honestly, after this last Kawhi injury I think I would pass on getting him. And didn’t his team blame the spurs too for misdiagnosing his last injury? He’s an amazing player but with all the load management and risk that he won’t be available when you really need him, I just think at this point I’d pass on Kawhi.

    RE: Sexton and his attitude. That Post article today did point out that he’s had 4 coaches in 3 NBA seasons and something like 52 teammates. Plus a whole lot of losing basketball games. So the fact that he’s improved in that environment every season to me points to someone who is dedicated to getting better. Maybe he’s cocky and a bit of a dick but with better teammates and a better coaching staff/winning environment, that could actually be ok. That clip of Kevin Love is concerning but its one play and I’m sure Kevin Love in general is super frustrated being an aging vet who’s playing days are limited languishing on a losing team.

    I just think about all the young players we’ve had over the years who did not get better when they were on our team because we had a revolving door of coaches and players. And here Sexton has been in the same situation and has still improved.

  195. I also think that while some fans will overvalue a guy who points up points on losing teams thinking they’re better than they are, a lot of other fans (especially some on this site) will over correct in the opposite direction and assume that any player who scores a lot of points on a bad team is a “tank commander” or a losing player who is just stat stuffing.

    I mean, I don’t want to pull up the receipts, Jowles, but I’m pretty sure you called both Randle and Booker “tank commanders” at some point in the last few years and now one is second team all-NBA and the other is playing in the NBA finals. Stats and advanced stats are so important but they really are just one aspect of player evaluation and if you’re looking to get a good player on the rise or win a trade, you have to have the ability to gain insight about a player’s mental/emotional state, take their current situation into context and also predict if they are ripe for an improvement. Just plugging in the stats isn’t going to alone win you deals or find hidden treasures because every team has the same access to those stats.

  196. I don’t think that just because players are statistically “similar” at age 22 (and I maintain that overall stats give the edge to Mitchell at any stage, largely due to defense) that they are on the same career trajectory. Mitchell “looked like” the more dynamic player at that stage in his career (think about whether anyone in their right mind would have suggested that Obi + #19 was enough to get him) and Mitchell has indeed blossomed into a legit max player who was a #1 option on a contender in the playoffs. Mitchell is an above-the-rim athlete who is pretty much unguardable 1-on-1 when he gets rolling. Sexton piled up some numbers on a scrubby team that was getting blown out on a regular basis.

    I’m not saying that if the deal goes down I’d be distraught, like THCJ seems to suggest. It’s not a terrible gamble. He’s definitely got upside and could blossom into a very exciting core player. And he is so young that it would affirm the FO’s commitment to building a young core rather than go the quick fix all-in on the supermax mercenary route e.g. Lillard. The downside is definitely limited, unless you’re a doomsday guy like E. I would just prefer to stay the course. I like Obi and I think we can get a really good player at #19.

  197. Yes but Mitchell also went to a much better situation in Utah than Sexton has with The Cavs. Utah is almost always a solid team at the worst. Mitchell had better teammates around him from the get go.

  198. Btw, please go look at Vrenz Bleijenbergh’s highlights. He’s a legit 6’11” Belgian point guard with LaMelo-like court vision (the fact that the Knicks have him on their radar is heartwarming).

    He clearly needs to bulk up and work on his free throws, but I would love him at #32 if he hasn’t risen too high already.

    This draft has a ton of interesting talent. If we keep #19, I’d be into trading down with the Rockets for #23 and #24, just to bring more of these guys into the fold.

  199. ess-dog:
    Btw, please go look at Vrenz Bleijenbergh’s highlights. He’s a legit 6’11” Belgian point guard with LaMelo-like court vision (the fact that the Knicks have him on their radar is heartwarming).

    He clearly needs to bulk up and work on his free throws, but I would love him at #32 if he hasn’t risen too high already.

    This draft has a ton of interesting talent. If we keep #19, I’d be into trading down with the Rockets for #23 and #24, just to bring more of these guys into the fold.

    I just posted about him the other day, the Knicks had him in. Here’s an article re: Vrenz’s visit…

    What I like about him is that he a) seems a lot more mobile and fluid than KP and b) seems more physically able to bulk up than Poku. Seems like a nice gamble in the late 1st/early 2nd…and if they reached for him at 21, I’d have to home it was a similar thing as it was with IQ…if you like him that much, don’t mess around, just take him.

  200. Some people here are apparently under the impression that acquiring Sexton takes them out of the 2022 FA class which is just not true. The Knicks can acquire Sexton this summer and still sign Beal or Lavine next summer.

    If you trade for Sexton, I don’t think you necessarily want or need a player like Beal or Lavine anymore. There’s only 1 ball. I think you need a PG or another high level playmaker.

    As I said earlier, if you trade for Sexton you have 3 scorers in Sexton, Randle, and RJ. The development of the 3 over time and nightly matchups will determine who is the #1 option, #2 option and so on. At least 2 of them have upside.

    However, you have a clear cut defensive issue with Sexton. He’s more of a 6’1″ SG than PG. And personally, I don’t like the idea of running the offense through either Randle or Sexton. That’s why Ball and Sexton actually make some sense. With Ball you are adding a 6’6″ backcourt mate that can defend the bigger guards and that’s passer and playmaker.

    Ball, Sexton, RJ, Randle, Mitch (or Noel) is a solid improvement over last year and has a LOT of upside.

    The key question is what it will cost for Ball. I don’t mind giving up picks, but if we have to throw in Mitch then we have to bring back Noel.

  201. swiftandabundant:
    Yes but Mitchell also went to a much better situation in Utah than Sexton has with The Cavs. Utah is almost always a solid team at the worst. Mitchell had better teammates around him from the get go.

    You can say “better situation” or “lots more pressure.” The dude was the leading scorer and highest usage player for a playoff team in the WC as a rookie, with decent all-around numbers. Do you seriously think he would have been perceived as some obscure scrub like Sexton has been if he were drafted by the Cavs?

  202. ess-dog: Btw, please go look at Vrenz Bleijenbergh’s highlights. He’s a legit 6’11” Belgian point guard with LaMelo-like court vision (the fact that the Knicks have him on their radar is heartwarming).
    He clearly needs to bulk up and work on his free throws, but I would love him at #32 if he hasn’t risen too high already.

    Yeah, yesterday i thought #32 was too high, but today i think i’d seriously think about taking him there.
    Some more wood to the fire: Imagine a 6’11 point guard with a 7’1 wingspan in the NBA. That’s unheard of.

    ess-dog: This draft has a ton of interesting talent. If we keep #19, I’d be into trading down with the Rockets for #23 and #24, just to bring more of these guys into the fold.

    I made this suggestion some threads ago. Hell, give them #58 along with #19 for those 2 picks. It’d be amazing to pick 4 times (21, 23, 24 and 32) in the first 32. But i don’t think the Rockets do this, unless it’s on draft day and IF a player they like a lot is available at #19.

    [edit] now i see that Z-Man shared the link faster than me… looks like i am a slow writer! LOL

  203. Deeefense: That’s why Ball and Sexton actually make some sense. With Ball you are adding a 6’6? backcourt mate that can defend the bigger guards and that’s passer and playmaker.
    Ball, Sexton, RJ, Randle, Mitch (or Noel) is a solid improvement over last year and has a LOT of upside.
    The key question is what it will cost for Ball. I don’t mind giving up picks, but if we have to throw in Mitch then we have to bring back Noel.

    I think this plan is actually great. First we go get Sexton for that proposed trade of Obi, #21, 3-on-3 GOAT. Then, as it’s out there that the Pelicans won’t match any offer above 20M AAV, let’s say we offer 4/$90M and they don’t match it. Now the Ball is on our side (and here i am trying to be funny again :P).
    Next step, we have a full year to evaluate the potential of this lineup. If we have any doubts, or if some superstar becomes available in 2022, we just have to waive Sexton’s cap hold (and let him walk) and we’ll have max space available.
    TNFH, it’s like this, right? Financially speaking i trust you the most. ;)

  204. TNFH, it’s like this, right? Financially speaking i trust you the most. ;)

    Always appreciate an excuse to procrastinate!

    You have it right. If we make the proposed trade for Sexton and sign Ball to 4/$90M, we’d have $38M remaining this offseason if we renounced all of our cap holds.

    Next offseason, if we didn’t take on any long-term money in 2021 we could renounce Sexton’s cap hold and get to ~$38M in space (and if we needed to create a little more for e.g. a 10+ year max, it would be easy–I’m accounting for the 21st pick in the 2021 draft, the 2021 DET 2nd making an AAV of $2M, and the 21st pick cap hold in the 2022 draft, all of which could be shed painlessly in all likelihood).

  205. Z-Man,

    I don’t know. I just know even if Mitchell is/was better than Sexton, the team would not have been that much better with him because hte rest of the Cavs roster was doo-doo. Utah always has a team full of solid players. Going into a situation like that makes it much easier to excel.

  206. And I don’t think “pressure” is an issue when a guy picked later in the lottery who isn’t a freshman and got passed over by a bunch of teams suddenly does really well and kind of takes the league by storm. Especially in a small market like Utah. There’s no real pressure there because he was found money.

  207. If you trade for Sexton, I don’t think you necessarily want or need a player like Beal or Lavine anymore. There’s only 1 ball. I think you need a PG or another high level playmaker.

    I get what you are saying but teams are always trying to find this balance between scorers/players that need the ball and having role players supplement the superstars. Obviously much different sitatuons with better players but The Nets didn’t pass on trading for Harden because Durant and Irving are both ball dominant. The Heatles had to figure it out with 3 guys who were all alphas and DWade and Bosh had to change their games a bit to support Lebron. This is what good players do. They adapt for the team in order for the team to succeed. RJ I have no doubt can do that. Randle and Sexton are the bigger question marks but in theory this would give you the 1,2,3 punch. I know it doesn’t sound as formidable as Durant, Irving and Harden but Randle, Sexton and RJ are all still very young and this move would still leave us with picks and future cap space and all 3 would in theory be moveable for other players down the road.

  208. cybersoze: It’s exactly this.
    And welcome back, Bruno! How’s things in Brazil?

    Thanks cyber, things are fine! Well, about as fine as it can be in this dumpster fire of a country.

    Look, I’m not very convinced on Sexton either, just like I’m still anxious about guys like LaVine, Booker or Mitchell, I’ve spent most of my recent NBA watching days thinking high volume scorers that didn’t provide much else were overrated. But the NBA is changing, the old guard is going away and one of the things that has gone up in value, in my opinion, is shot creation. It was always important, but watching Booker, Young, PG, Mitchell in this playoffs has shown that even if your top guy is not the typical uber efficient +600 ts% superstar, it’s still a necessary role to have.

    We saw what happened when we had no guards who were able to create shots, we had to rely on whatever was left of Derrick Rose and it was still our best option. There might be better opportunities than Sexton out there, he might never get better, but I think for this price it’s a risk worth taking. I see people saying we need a pass first PG, but who is this guy? These are a dying breed in the NBA, and I think taking a chance that a score first guy will learn to kick out on drives and move the ball is probably more likely than finding a star true PG.

  209. My impression is that they’d be bringing Sexton in to be the Kyrie Irving to the Cavs’ Lebron. Can run the offense when Randle is off, but would be playing off Randle when Randle is on the floor. Sexton as primary initiator against bench units would be pretty strong. Now you could certainly ask the question of whether a poor man’s Kyrie + a poor man’s Lebron = anything worthwhile, but I truly do not think they would be acquiring Sexton to be this team’s Chris Paul.

    FWIW – age 22 Sexton vs age 22 Kyrie is not as different as you might think.
    https://stathead.com/tiny/i0IxV

    In addition, we’ve all assumed that Derrick Rose is coming back, but DRose himself said that nothing was agreed upon and that the Knicks had bigger visions. It is possible they are bringing Sexton in so that they don’t need to spend $10MM+ AAV to bring Rose back. So from a pure $ standpoint, you’d be sending out two guys that don’t play much (Knox + Obi) plus a 1st round pick to save about $5MM in salary (Sexton < Obi+Knox) + 10MM in cap savings from Rose. They could also S&T Rose to another team, turning him into an asset rather than letting him walk.

    I don't know what the right answer is. Like BB Al says, there aren't clear cut answers here. Keeping your powder dry may just end up resulting in assets evaporating / expiring.

  210. Seems to me like the need for a pass-first PG is mitigated a bit by having multiple shot creators on the floor at the same time. Randle, RJ and Sexton would all be able to create their own offense, all three can pass a bit, all three can get to the line…

    Sexton is not really my kind of player but the arguments in favor of him are reasonable. For the right price I wouldn’t hate it. I would want to just play Sexton at PG and acquire a good switchable 3-and-D guy to play SG.

  211. Sexton’s is an intriguing talent, but I’d really like to see year 2 of Toppin… If the Cavs get desperate and would take #21, Knox, and maybe a future 2nd/unload a short term contract on the Knicks, then okay.

    If Sexton does end up being traded for, perhaps bring back Stand in the Corner Frank for a year (if possible on the cheap), since Sexton, RJB, and Randle will pretty much eat up all the usage. :-)

  212. FWIW – age 22 Sexton vs age 22 Kyrie is not as different as you might think.
    https://stathead.com/tiny/i0IxV

    OBPM 4.4 vs 1.9
    TS%+ 109 vs. 100

    Kyrie added 137 points against league average and Sexton added 3.7.One player adding ~1.8 points per contest on 16 FGA and 5 FTA is huge. Imagine you have five starters who have the same gap in scoring efficiency as Irving vis a vis Sexton. That’s a 9 point swing per game — essentially the difference between a 41 win team and a 65 win team.

  213. swiftandabundant: I get what you are saying but teams are always trying to find this balance between scorers/players that need the ball and having role players supplement the superstars. Obviously much different sitatuons with better players but The Nets didn’t pass on trading for Harden because Durant and Irving are both ball dominant. The Heatles had to figure it out with 3 guys who were all alphas and DWade and Bosh had to change their games a bit to support Lebron. This is what good players do. They adapt for the team in order for the team to succeed. RJ I have no doubt can do that. Randle and Sexton are the bigger question marks but in theory this would give you the 1,2,3 punch. I know it doesn’t sound as formidable as Durant, Irving and Harden but Randle, Sexton and RJ are all still very young and this move would still leave us with picks and future cap space and all 3 would in theory be moveable for other players down the road.

    When you have Durant, Harden, and Irving you have players whose talents are so diverse any of them can take any role you need on offense and you’ll have more than enough of everything you need. You don’t care if there’s some diminishing returns in some areas. You have inside, outside, off the dribble, ball handling, play making etc.. up the gazoo.

    When you have Sexton, Randle, and RJ, you have some major gaps to fill. You don’t necessarily want to add a very good but very expensive duplicative player and leave holes where you are still weak. You want to fill the gaps.

    .

  214. The Honorable Cock Jowles: OBPM4.4 vs 1.9
    TS%+109 vs. 100

    Kyrie added 137 points against league average and Sexton added 3.7.One player adding ~1.8 points per contest on 16 FGA and 5 FTA is huge. Imagine you have five starters who have the same gap in scoring efficiency as Irving vis a vis Sexton. That’s a 9 point swing per game — essentially the difference between a 41 win team and a 65 win team.

    maybe instead of poor man’s Kyrie Irving I should have said destitute vagrant living in dumpster fire version of Kyrie?

    Also have to consider Kyrie at age 22 had the luxury of LeBron James on his team. The year prior (age 21 3rd season), he had a TS of 53.3 although his other numbers like assists, etc were better while playing with a dumpster fire of a team, similar to Sexton’s team.

  215. Personally, I’m against giving Obi the Jerome James treatment.

    And pick 19 has about a 60% chance to be glued to an NBA bench at his best and a 10% chance to be out of the league in 5 years.

    The chance of selecting 2 IQ level players at 19b& 21 is really bad.

    If nothing else, the reigning 4-seed in the East could use some scoring punch next season without longterm contract commitment that other PGs or SGs would require

  216. The micro arguments for Sexton are reasonable but I’m looking at the macro picture. The bill for Randle, Sexton, and Mitch is due next summer. Someone walk me through how we end up in a desirable place by then.

    “We still have cap space” is a fine argument but what are we going to do with it? Who are the players you expect to fit in by then?

  217. Also have to consider Kyrie at age 22 had the luxury of LeBron James on his team. The year prior (age 21 3rd season), he had a TS of 53.3 although his other numbers like assists, etc were better while playing with a dumpster fire of a team, similar to Sexton’s team.

    His offense skyrocketed when he left the Cavs.

  218. Projecting the cap at $115M a 7-9yr max will cost $35M. We currently are projected to have $47M. Sextons cap hold is $19M. But Obi & draft pick are slotted to make $8M. So we’d have $36M to sign.

    In 2022 we can fit LaVine, Beal, or another 7-9 max next summer with as long as we don’t sign any other long-term deals. Even while retaining Sexton, Mitch, and Randle’s cap hold.

    We could fit KD, Harden, or anther 10yr max. if we trade a draft pick or 2 we make from this year or next or waive/trade Vildoza.

    So any max FA could be had next year with zero or at least minimal maneuvers.

  219. Shit if its Knox and pick 21, you have to do it, right? I get being hesitant with Obi, though. But he’s also buried behind Randle. It was a bad pick in hindsight but no one saw Randle blowing up like he did this past season. But Obi probably still has value, so moving him for Sexton does make sense.

    I feel like I’ve taken a very pro Sexton stance here and to be honest, I am not that sold on it. But I do see the logic behind the move because he is so young and talented and has put up good numbers already. There woudl be far worse moves out there.

    Would still rather just go the Lowry route but the argument could be made that if Sexton worked out it would be a much better long term move bc now you add someone who is on the same timeline as RJ/IQ/Mitch and we would still have 4 first round picks in the next 3 drafts to continue to add prospects. Plus if its true we could still add a max or near max player to the fold next year? That sounds pretty ideal We would not have a true alpha superstar like Durant or Lebron but we’d have a pretty talented and deep team that you can go far with that kind of a squad these days.

  220. Hubert: “We still have cap space” is a fine argument but what are we going to do with it? Who are the players you expect to fit in by then?

    How can we predict now which players will want to come here? What we can do is plan to have money, because this summer there aren’t any good players to have.
    Next season, the names available will be the same of the alternative plans, of course. But let’s do the naming game… If you use the money on one player (a max player), you can have Steph (LOL), Jimmy, Beal or Lavine (they’re all UFA, with Jimmy/Beal having a player option). My preference goes to Jimmy, and i think it’s possible because the Heat won’t have a season like 2020 again, so he might opt-out and come reunite with Thibs (and the new assistant coach – Taj). Jimmy would fit perfectly.
    Lineup: Sexton, RJ, Jimmy, Julius, Mitch;

  221. But please, if you have a much better plan until 2022, with names or else you’re “playing” under different rules, let us know what plan is that.

  222. Wasserman has Bleijenbergh at 52 on his new big board:

    Bleijenbergh wasn’t invited to the combine, but he’ll wind up with around 12 workouts before the draft as teams try to learn more about the 6’10” playmaker. With a unique mix of size, ball-handling and shot-making skills, he averaged 3.5 assists and 1.8 threes in between Belgium League play and Eurocup.

    Other notable Knickerblogger topics of conversation: Ayo way down at 42, Sengun at 17, Sharife Cooper way up at 11 (and Cameron Thomas at 12!), Jalen Johnson at 6 (though he acknowledged opinions are all over the map on him, and “I talked to a scout who didn’t have him first round based on findings during background checks and questions about his ability to beat defenders in the half court”). No Queta at all.

  223. Alan: No Queta at all.

    :(
    If this happens, which i hope it’s not the case, of course, maybe the Knicks can take him as a UDFA in a 2-way contract. I gotta keep hoping it’ll all work out just fine.

  224. Meanwhile, Team USA has to replace Bradley Beal due to Covid stuff, and it sounds like Randle has a decent shot to make the team, since guard reinforcements are on the way from the guys playing in the finals, while Love (who apparently barely edged out Randle) has played terribly.

  225. So the plan is to team Sexton, RJ, and Randle up with another ball dominant wing like Beal or Lavine? And have Tom Thibodeau figure out how to make that offense flow?? This is why I don’t like the macro picture.

    (Butler isn’t leaving; he’ll probably be playing with Kawhi.)

  226. **Meanwhile, Team USA has to replace Bradley Beal due to Covid stuff, and it sounds like Randle has a decent shot to make the team, since guard reinforcements are on the way from the guys playing in the finals, while Love (who apparently barely edged out Randle) has played terribly.**

    I’d be happy for Randle, but I’m not sure how much I want him playing for team USA. I’d actually be interested in watching them if he did play, but much rather he lock himself in a gym in Texas again doing 2 a day weighted treadmill running or whatever.

    Love was such a weird inclusion in the first place.

  227. Hubert:
    So the plan is to team Sexton, RJ, and Randle up with another ball dominant wing like Beal or Lavine? And have Tom Thibodeau figure out how to make that offense flow?? This is why I don’t like the macro picture.
    (Butler isn’t leaving; he’ll probably be playing with Kawhi.)

    I get that. But if the incoming player overlaps Sexton, you ship him out for something in a sign and trade. If your plan is to stand pat, then if in 2022 no one wants to take Dolan’s money, what will you got?

  228. @Cybersoze,

    Queta will always be pick #58 ti the Knicks in our hearts (unless he goes to Boston, fuck Boston)

  229. Alan: Meanwhile, Team USA has to replace Bradley Beal due to Covid stuff, and it sounds like Randle has a decent shot to make the team, since guard reinforcements are on the way from the guys playing in the finals, while Love (who apparently barely edged out Randle) has played terribly.

    It’s probably destiny correcting a terrible decision, Julius more than deserved to be selected in the first place. I’ll be happy for him, and it’ll be amazing if we can have a gold medalist again. It’ll set the perfect example for the rest of the roster, saying that if you work hard, you might get rewarded big time.

  230. Early Bird:
    @Cybersoze,
    Queta will always be pick #58 ti the Knicks in our hearts (unless he goes to Boston, fuck Boston)

    Yeah, no Boston, no Miami and no Chicago (i still remember the hard times MJ gave us) for Queta. If it’s not the Knicks, maybe Brooklyn, i don’t mind the Nets. LOL

  231. A team of Sexton Beal RJ Randle & Mitch, or something similar, hardly excites me. It’s got a very 2004 Team USA vibe.

    Not to mention it would be the end of our dear friend, Strat.

  232. **A team of Sexton Beal RJ Randle & Mitch, or something similar, hardly excites me. It’s got a very 2004 Team USA vibe.

    Not to mention it would be the end of our dear friend, Strat.**

    We can always just wait for LeBron, KD, Cade Cunningham, and Zion to sign with us as FAs.

  233. cybersoze: Lineup: Sexton, RJ, Jimmy, Julius, Mitch;

    That’s such a funny/weird line-up. I see it as Big Jimmy (JR), Jimmy (JB), and Little Jimmy (RJ). Plus their initials are all really similar along with their games — except that Butler hit 24% of his 3’s this year and is at 32% for his career. It’s making my head hurt to imagine the offensive sets that would work.

  234. A flier on Sexton isn’t worth Obi, so all the “we can just renounce his cap hold next summer” stuff is pretty much moot. Said flier is worth Knox and one of the ’21 1s and I’d do that.

  235. The Sexton/Ball backcourt was my prediction, Strat, and I’m sticking to that story!

    It gives you a strong defense aside from Sexton, shot/foul creation from Sexton and RJ, 3pt shooting from Randle, Ball, RJ, and somewhat from Sexton, passing from Ball backed up by Sexton and Randle too… it’s very solid and has room to grow.

    I’d hate not having Obi as a backup for Randle anymore, but we can surely find another bench PF. I don’t know that it’s the best plan out there but maybe the most available one.

    As for Vrenz, his end-to-end speed is really impressive for a guy that tall. He really might be moving into 1st round territory. I can’t remember a time when this team had so many options on its horizon…

  236. ball, sexton, rj, julius, mitch (we probably lose him though somehow getting ball i’d imagine)…

    off the bench: quik, draft pick(s), whoever else we can sign for merc duty…

    that would give us a fairly solid six players or so to begin with…

  237. we had an okay rotation last year except for starting point, and backup small forward (i’m thinking of burks as a shooting guard, who knows what the knicks have him listed as) and power forward (obi was pretty bad for a good bit of the season)…

    most likely a playoff squad again (maybe not the 4th seed), and ball, sexton, rj, quik, draft picks, and maybe even julius, still have room to improve individually and as a team…

  238. What kind of player does everybody think Obi is going to be going forward? His ceiling seems a little low to me tbh.

  239. JK47:
    What kind of player does everybody think Obi is going to be going forward? His ceiling seems a little low to me tbh.

    I think he’s going to be like Kenny Walker and Walker was out of the league after five years. It’s why I would trade him for Sexton. Sexton has a lot of flaws, but he has good things too

  240. JK47:
    What kind of player does everybody think Obi is going to be going forward? His ceiling seems a little low to me tbh.

    It’s so hard to predict. Maybe something between what PJ Washington is now (floor) and Sabonis (ceiling)? Thus far, Obi has admirably restricted his shooting to at the rim and 3 pointers. Additionally, his defense looked surprisingly decent.

    If he gets his 3pt shooting and rebounding numbers to where they should be and opens up his passing a bit, he could definitely be an above-the-rim “Sabonis-lite” type. Odds are against him becoming as good as Sabonis, so probably not quite a reserve all star-level player.

  241. JK47:
    What kind of player does everybody think Obi is going to be going forward? His ceiling seems a little low to me tbh.

    Yeah, he could be Kenny Sky Walker, but there’s a definite alternative universe where he becomes a decent starter. It seemed as if he suddenly figured out how to play defense there at the end of the year (which was always what made me think he’d be out of the league in five years — much of the season he was literally cringe-worthy to watch on that end of the floor). And he looked like he was beginning to understand how to shoot the three. He always ran and moved well around the basket. Hard to tell if it was trajectory or mirage. But if it’s the former, there’s a real chance for a real player in there. Trouble is, he needs playing time to find out, and he’s probably not getting that on the Knicks.

  242. I’m going to side with Jowels on Sexton because the ratings look bad. I’m tempted by everyone else’s reasoning though.

  243. The Honorable Cock Jowles:
    https://www.bball-index.com/2020-21-lebron-data/

    This site’s indexing is terrible, but Sexton ranked 193rd of 251 players in LEBRON last year. Of players who played 2,000 minutes, he ranked 44th of 47.

    How the fuck is this guy a trade target?

    His age 22 season was very close to Dame’s age 22 rookie season. 24 points a game on league average shooting with the possibility of improved playmaking at his age makes him an acceptable trade target. If you trust the Knicks NOT to sign him to a max deal if he doesn’t make another leap this coming year it’s tempting. I’d probably rather keep Obi and see if he can raise his value this year- if he plays like he did at the end of the season next year he should be worth more than Sexton’s current value if packaged with a pick. But Knox and 21as some have floated? I think you’d almost have to make that deal as long as you’re willing to cut bait if he doesn’t earn a max deal.

  244. i think the upside with obi is that he approximates what john collins gets you in a few years…someone who depends on others to get him good opportunities but can do so in a lot of different situations… corner 3s… lobs… roll man.. pick and pop.. probably sacrifice some rebounding for some assists but otherwise aiming for similar looking boxscore metrics…

  245. nicos, I don’t have to tell you how few players ever become as good as Dame is. I’m sure I can find more than a few 22-year-old guards who shot league average and did not go on to become an All-NBA player.

  246. But Knox and 21as some have floated? I think you’d almost have to make that deal

    That’s kind of a fairy tale price that no one took seriously. Doubt there would be any push back if we made that trade.

  247. The Honorable Cock Jowles:
    nicos, I don’t have to tell you how few players ever become as good as Dame is. I’m sure I can find more than a few 22-year-old guards who shot league average and did not go on to become an All-NBA player.

    Just for fun I looked at the last 10 years to see what guards have had seasons- regardless of age- where they’ve had a usage of better than 29 (Sexton was at 29.7 last year) while maintaining a league average TS% and lo and behold out of 20 different guards guys there were only three guys who have done that without ever making an all-star team- Sexton of course, Kevin Martin, and djphan’s Sexton comp Lou Williams. Most of the names on the list are perennial all-stars or young guys like Booker, Brown, Young and LaVine who look like they will be. Oladipo is probably the one clunker. I still wouldn’t do the trade but if Sexton has another scoring season like last year and even modestly improves his defense that’d likely be fair value for what they’d be giving up in Obi coming off of a disappointing season and a pick in the 20s.

  248. Sexton did this at 22 years of age and you think he has less potential than Obi (who is 23 by the way)?

  249. If Kenny Sky Walker is the ceiling for Obi you wait till his trade value hits limit up and trade him wo second thoughts.
    In my perfect case scenario i see Obi as a 2020’s version of Shawn Kemp.
    All he has to do is put some muscle, shave his balls and find a pg lob master.

  250. Kenny Walker was a terrible disppointment. But he more like an effective 6’6″ and wasn’t suited to play either PF or SF in the late ’80s. Obi has some qualities to suggest that he could be a pretty dynamic offensive player with the right guys around him. The stiff hips are troubling and if his D doesn’t improve he won’t get much run on a Thibs-coached team. So ultimately it’s probably best to trade him but I’d like to see him get some run after a summer of working on his game before doing so.

  251. How about this plan:
    Obi and 21 for Sexton, Love, and a top 15 protected 1st(contingent on immediately finding a landing spot for Love)
    Knox and 19 to move up for Kai Jones to replace Obi

    It’s a little crazy..but hey..why not try?

  252. I keep seeing more and more mock drafts projection Sengun slipping down to ~#16 or #17, which is making me salivate–dude is one of the best players in the draft, imo (though risky in his own way). On the other hand, I keep seeing Springer inching up to around the #12 spot (apparently he showed out at the combine/showed a lot of athleticism, which was a major concern for him). Would really love to be able to nab Sengun and Springer in the draft if we don’t “win” the Collin Sexton sweepstakes.

    (Note: I’m ambivalent on the Sexton deal but there’s some nearby possible worlds in which it works whether or not he’s Donovan Mitchell or Dame)

  253. New Zach Harper mock at The Athletic has us taking Isaiah Jackson at 19 (pass), Jared Butler at 21 (fine with it if he gets a clean bill of health), Kessler Edwards at 32, and Joel Ayayi at 58 (one spot ahead of Queta). Bleijenbergh goes undrafted. Harper assumes we will not be making both first round picks, though.

  254. What do people think of Scottie Barnes as a prospect? Wasserman says Barnes has already elbowed his way past Jonathan Kuminga on most team’s boards, and he could go as high as 4th to the Raptors, 5th at worst to the Magic (or a team trading up with the Magic).

  255. I’m crushing on Bleijenbergh now lol. I like his attitude, he seems self-aware, confident, and hungry at the same time. He’s been a point guard in the youth system of his club (Antwerp Giants) since he was little, and evidently the club let him develop as a perimeter player through a huge growth spurt. There’s only been one other Belgian player in the NBA (DJ Mbenga), and Vrenz sounds eager to represent his country well in the NBA. Definitely says all the right things.

    He didn’t make the combine because of immigration delays, so I think that explains why a player like him has flown under the radar.

    Finally, he’s got an elite basketball name. VRENZ BLEIJENBERGH! It sounds like a D&D character, like a wizard or a noble or something.

    ess-dog:
    Btw, please go look at Vrenz Bleijenbergh’s highlights. He’s a legit 6’11” Belgian point guard with LaMelo-like court vision (the fact that the Knicks have him on their radar is heartwarming).

    He clearly needs to bulk up and work on his free throws, but I would love him at #32 if he hasn’t risen too high already.

    This draft has a ton of interesting talent. If we keep #19, I’d be into trading down with the Rockets for #23 and #24, just to bring more of these guys into the fold.

  256. The Grizzlies SBNation blog has this breakdown of Bleijenbergh’s strengths and weaknesses from additional scouting reports on him.

    He’s 6’11, 220, so he of course needs to get stronger — it’s bad news if he can’t rebound at all. From highlights his straight line speed on the break looks impressive for a guy his size, he’s got a long and fluid stride. I don’t know about his lateral agility, and we’ve all seen the challenges a tall player with a high center of gravity has being guarded by a shorter, stronger player with KP.

    But the potential is tantalizing! BLEIJENBERGH-A-MANIA IS RUNNING WILD

  257. Alan:
    Buckle up, kiddies: Henry Abbott says Dame is definitely requesting a trade, and soon.

    The clip from Inside Out of the characters in the boy’s head running around screaming while an alarm goes “GIRL. GIRL. GIRL. GIRL” comes to mind, except it’s us with our heads on fire and the alarm’s going “DAME. DAME. DAME. DAME.”

  258. i’ve had barnes ahead of kuminga for awhile now but it’s still really close.. barnes is more of a ballhandler in the draymond mold… kuminga has way more athletic ability.. both have serious questions about their outside shot but maybe workable… i think what edges barnes is the fact that kuminga’s dribble is just way too high which hurts him when turning the corner and so his drives get stopped a little too easy… then again he was going up against stiffer competition…..

    i don’t really see either being drafted over suggs green or mobley which is what the raptors would be doing at #4… so he’s probably going 5 at most….

  259. Okay, now here’s a #21 + Knox trade I can get behind. I’ll even throw in the #19 and Lady Jowles, too.

  260. I like the idea of Butler at #21 and Ayayi and #58. I don’t like anything else mentioned, including trading up just for the sake of it, taking Jackson at 19, and taking Edwards at #32.

    If Josh Christopher is really available at #32 as the Harper mock suggests, we should make that damn pick with 4:59 remaining.

  261. If we should all help the Dame trade i can throw in some land with olive trees in Peloponnesus and a few lots of cds/lps!

  262. Kevin Love out of the Olympics, citing his calf injury. Find a new slant, it’s a normal roster.

    Who’s up next? James Wiseman? Marvin Bagley? Josh Jackson?

  263. Oh, I’m sure they will now ask Randle to join the team. Whether he actually will is another question. But they desperately need frontcourt help.

  264. Interesting Lillard news. I sort of feel weird about that trade A. because it will gut the team and B. because he’s already pretty old for a 6’2″ guy. Don’t get me wrong, I’m sure we’d get at least 2 or 3 great years out of him, but that’s not a huge window to work with.

    I assume the trade would be RJ, Mitch, and either Toppin or Quickley plus 3 picks and 2 pick swaps (or something to that effect). So your big 2 are Lillard and Randle. Maybe then you keep Noel and Bullock? Maybe they want to sign Oubre after that (can they?) That’s maybe a top-5 team if everything breaks right.

  265. ess-dog. I would hate that so much. RJ isn’t untouchable but he’s as close as untouchable as a player can get for me. I would hate to gut our team of youth and picks for a win-now window of 2-3 years that isn’t actually a legit title contender. I mean, we just dug ourselves out of the Melo era and now we want to do it all over again? I really hope that is not their thinking.

  266. This blog keeps banging on the dumbness of Past Front Offices, then at the first opportunity want to do exactly the same moves.

    Face palm.

  267. I love Dame and would be willing to give up a ton to get him, but it does feel a little like Melo 2.0. We’d be left with Randle and filler, not gonna get you a championship and maybe not even the ECF.

    Past mega trades for guys like Harden, Jrue, and PG 13. were bet the farm, win now deals. You can’t go all in on Dame unless it immediately makes you a legit contender for an NBA championship,

  268. I think you need to keep RJ & Mitch held back in any trade talks. Danny Ainge is the template here. He acquired Allen & Garnett while refusing to trade Rondo & Perkins bc he knew he needed those two.

    If we acquire Lillard, Beal is going to come next, and he probably won’t want to wait for free agency so he’ll force his way here.

    A starting 5 of Lillard, Beal, Barrett, Randle, Mitch should be the goal. If we give up Obi, IQ, and every pick that isn’t nailed to the floor, I’m ok with that.

    If we end up with Lillard, Beal, Randle, Noel, and a bunch of junk, it wasn’t worth it.

  269. Does Abbot have any record as a news breaker? None of the big news guys have jumped in to confirm that I’ve seen so far so I’m still taking it with a big grain of salt.

    If Lillard does eventually ask for a trade and if we’re on the list of teams then you have to at least think about it. They’re going to ask for absolutely everything but Lillard-Randle with the right free agency moves around them really could have some championship equity I think. The big unknown to me is what our assumption should be about Lillard’s aging curve – it seems like more guys than ever are playing at an elite level into their mid/late 30s but I’m not sure if there’s enough of a sample to say yet whether it’s a real thing or just an anomaly of a few players. Lillard is signed to absolutely huge money through ’24-’25 so you’re betting a lot on him aging well at least into his mid-30s.

  270. Yeah, but if we withhold RJ and Mitch, Golden State will put forward a much better offer.

    I think it’s better to spread that money across multiple players anyway (Sexton/Ball/2 draft picks) considering where we are on the win curve, but the NYKs always seem to have a “stars and any cost” approach to things.

  271. I don’t see how we afford Beal & Lillard in trades, if Beal comes it’s in FA.

  272. If someone puts together a better offer, so be it.

    The goal is to build a team, not to win the trade sweepstakes.

  273. I don’t see how we afford Beal & Lillard in trades, if Beal comes it’s in FA.

    It’s nearly impossible unless Beal & Lillard work with their respective teams to get traded to where they want to go for a fair but not exorbitant price. Sometimes teams reward loyalty. It’s unlikely but it worked for Kevin Garnett.

  274. I’d rather stay the course and be a solid, competitive team for a good long while than to cash in every asset and make a small-window run at a chip followed by the inevitable crash and burn.

  275. sounds like a young player from the select team (Keldon Johnson from the spurs), and javale mcgee are filling in on team USA…

    i wonder if julius declined?

  276. **It’s nearly impossible unless Beal & Lillard work with their respective teams to get traded to where they want to go for a fair but not exorbitant price. Sometimes teams reward loyalty. It’s unlikely but it worked for Kevin Garnett.**

    I just don’t know if those franchises can afford to take less than the best offer and it’s not as though the Knicks are the only destination.

    We do have a lot of assets, maybe we could get it done, but not sure we’d really want to burn through all of them.

    Would be an awesome team though

  277. Who’s up next? James Wiseman? Marvin Bagley? Josh Jackson?

    when saracasm is a better gm than your country. maybe we should dump kd to slovenia for draft picks.

  278. I ultimately do not think we will trade the whole boat for Dame – that may lead to us getting outbid by other teams but that is fine.

    If you look at the “superstar” trades that have been made which ended up costing boatloads of assets —

    Anthony Davis –> traded to the Lakers, who were absolutely under the gun to win a championship due to presence of Lebron.

    Jrue Holiday –> traded to Bucks, who had to prove to Giannis they were serious about creating a championship contender. So addition of Jrue = Giannis staying. Obviously huge amount of pressure on Bucks to make that work however it could work.

    Paul George –> traded to Clippers as essentially a twofer with Kawhi – so all those assets really were for two superstars, not one.

    Harden –> traded to Nets, who are clearly under the gun to win a championship.

    CP3/Russ trade –> that was done under the pressure of Harden and CP3 not getting along at all, and worry about Harden wanting to leave. That should go down as one of the worst trades in NBA history honestly.

    The Knicks do not have this pressure – they’re not under the gun to do anything. We’re all over the moon that we won 57% of our games, and I think we’d all be thrilled if we somehow made it to the 2nd round next year.

    The team to keep an eye on might be the Warriors. Wiseman + 7 + 14 + future picks (the later the better) would clearly be the best offer out there asset-wise, although of course Portland would have to take Wiggins back to make the math work – not sure they are interested in that.

  279. FWIW, the Melo move probably wasn’t the mistake so much as waiving Billups instead of Amare… also the Bargs trade and letting Lin walk for nothing.

    I’m really tempted to wait on RJ rather than go all-in, despite being an RJ pessimist. Mitch, IQ, RJ could be a solid team for the next decade. I know some want the championship, but a solid team for an extended time would be a welcome change.

  280. Today is a big day for Lillard’s profile: Space Jam 2 is coming out. (Glenn Kelly’s New York Times movie review could just as well be about the Blazers’ summer: “sensory overload mostly yields head-spinning stupefaction.”) Lillard’s in the movie with LeBron James, and on the soundtrack

    Reading this, i’m thinking something crazy… can the Lakers offer to swap AD for Dame? I’d do it, if i’m the Lakers, as AD is always injured.

  281. It wasn’t all the fault of the Melo trade but it was one move in a series of moves that boxed us in. Once we made that trade, we were all in on the Melo/Stat era and every move made afterwards was a desperate attempt to make that work.

    Also, Ainge totally got help from McHale with the Garnett trade. No way he gets Garnett for as little as he did if his old teammate wasn’t the GM in Minny at the time. I also think star trades cost a lot more than they did back in 2007. GM’s know how valuable truly elite players are now and aren’t willing to give them up for peanuts anymore.

  282. This was the KG trade per BKRef:

    Traded by the Minnesota Timberwolves to the Boston Celtics for Ryan Gomes, Gerald Green, Al Jefferson, Theo Ratliff, Sebastian Telfair, a 2009 1st round draft pick (Wayne Ellington was later selected) and a 2009 1st round draft pick (Jonny Flynn was later selected).

    That was 2 picks & 3 (at the time) promising young players in Green, Jefferson, & Telfair–all 23 or younger. None of them panned out, but I’m not 100% convinced we could match that offer as is. I don’t entirely recall their perception at the time.

    Edit: Gomes was young too

  283. Early Bird:
    This was the KG trade per BKRef:

    That was 2 picks & 3 (at the time) promising young players in Green, Jefferson, & Telfair–all 23 or younger. None of them panned out, but I’m not 100% convinced we could match that offer as is. I don’t entirely recall their perception at the time.

    That 2009 pick coulda shoulda been Steph Curry instead of Jonny Flynn. We’d look at that trade much differently in that context!

    Re: the Melo trade – it really ended up being Melo’s fault. he wanted the $$ so badly that he brought the Nets into the picture, which ultimately caused Dolan to step in and throw the whole kitchen sink into the deal. No doubt Melo had zero interest in going to the Nets, but he (Leon Rose?) wanted to pressure the Knicks to put enough into the deal that Masai would do the deal. Ultimately if we had just offered, say, Gallo + Chandler + a pick and the alternative for Masai was Melo walking in FA to the Knicks, he still would’ve done it.

  284. Frank: That 2009 pick coulda shoulda been Steph Curry instead of Jonny Flynn. We’d look at that trade much differently in that context!

    The kind of team that trades KG for that “haul” is the kind of team that drafts Flynn over Curry.

    Re: the Melo trade – it really ended up being Melo’s fault. he wanted the $$ so badly that he brought the Nets into the picture, which ultimately caused Dolan to step in and throw the whole kitchen sink into the deal.

    Lillard is doing this to the Knicks and Sixers, whether he knows it or not. A bidding war between an ECF contending team and us? Not good. Don’t be surprised to see Barrett, Quickley and every 1st available for the next ten years go out the window for a 31-year-old PG.

  285. The Melo move wasn’t great, but we were still legitimately competitive for a year despite making a series of inescapably dumb moves as follow-ups. If Kidds legs hadn’t fallen off we might view the trade in a different light, despite keeping Amare, cutting Billups, and letting Lin walk.

    There was likely a path to a championship with Melo, despite being a bad trade. We just didn’t take it.

    The Melo trade was bad once we cut Billups, the trade for both players looks much better than for just Melo.

    Also Lillard is just flat out better than Melo.

  286. If you ever sold something on ebay you know that all you need to get paid BIGTime is 2 crazy bidders!

  287. beal has a lot more leverage than lillard .. beal can basically pick his destination at the deadline if he indicates he isn’t resigning and the wiz will want a return before they lose him for nothing… we can offer obi/quick plus the Dallas first and that will likely get it done…

  288. Getting back Ben Simmons makes much more sense for Portland, and I can’t imagine Morey balks at that. Plus, they have Maxey to give and some other nice parts so that the Blazers could actually compete in the short term or else sell off their other vet parts and go with a youth movement.

    I’m going to assume the Knicks will quickly turn their attention back onto Sexton.

  289. As for Sexton i read about Celtics Lakers Heat Pacers Pelicans and even Sixers having interest in him so idk if a draft pick and Kevin “tonya harding” Knox plus 3 boxes of bootleg whiskey would seal a deal…

  290. **The kind of team that trades KG for that “haul”**

    Remember that FOs back then were infinitely dumber.

    Also, I feel like we’ve had this discussion about 22yos before.

  291. 76ers could easily put together a much more enticing package for Lillard assuming Portland would want Simmons.

    This really is going to be a fascinating off season for the Knicks, I’m excited and nervous at the same time lol.

  292. I think my final view on Sexton is you trade for him if you think he costs less than the max next year, maybe $22M as slightly too high… I dare another team to offer the max to him as a RFA… or you think he can still learn PG at 22yo.

    I’m not against giving him a shot at PG, but that’s more difficult to evaluate than other aspects of the game. I’ll defer to someone else on his PG potential.

  293. seems like lavine is indicating that he wants to resign with the bulls…

    well scratch a name for next offseason….

    [Bulls Talk Podcast] Zach Lavine on his upcoming contract extension talks: “As long as it (contract extension) gets done i’ll be happy, i want to be with the Bulls”, “i want to be here long term.”

  294. LaVine probably thinks he and Vucevic are contenders over a full year… wouldn’t be surprised if he changes his mind halfway through the year

  295. He has a weird situation where the Bulls can only offer him 20% over his 2020-21 salary, which would be $105M over four, but if they allow him to go UFA, he can be re-signed using Bird rights for 30% of the cap ($34M to begin), or possibly more if he sneaks onto an All-NBA team next year. Another is to clear $14M in cap space this year to renegotiate his 2021-22 salary, which would allow for a $152M four-year deal to begin afterward — essentially setting the new baseline for the 20% raises from the first option.

    It should be easy to see what’s coming. Lavine is not taking $105M over four, and I doubt the Bulls value $14M in cap space next season more than they do ensuring that a guy with his combination of scoring volume and efficiency doesn’t walk for nothing in UFA next year. Of course, there’s always the handshake deal where he agrees to get to UFA so they can use all of their space before re-signing him to a massive Bird contract over the cap, but that also leaves them open to the possibility that he gets that All-NBA nod and tacks 17% (+5% of cap space) and an extra year onto that next contract, which would hit $220M or so.

    Given how good LaVine has become, and how poorly the previous regime drafted, it’s all but a done-deal that he will be a Bull through the end of his prime.

  296. Lillard is better than Melo but he’s also older than Melo was when we traded for Melo. Melo was 27 I think when we traded for him?

    Melo fell off quick once he hit 30. His style of play and position was going to make that inevitable. Lillard will probably hold up longer but he’s 3/4 years older than Melo was when we got him.

  297. What was so annoying about Melo doing that to us is that there were all these reports about him wanting to team up with CP3 on The Knicks and I honestly believe he wanted that cause they were both in their primes and both close friends. There’s an alternate universe where we had CP3, Melo and Tyson as our big three. One not quite as talented as The Heatles but one that fit on paper better in some ways.

    But then Melo threw the Nets into the mix. Its like, did no one sit him down and say “dude, if you want CP3 to play with you, you have to play hardball so the Knicks have stuff left over to get him later.”

  298. I believe that the talk about us going after Dame is leverage for getting a better deal on Sexton. Dame makes no sense in our position while at least Sexton fits with our timeline and won’t require us to gut the entire team.

    Dame for Simmons plus sweeteners seems like a natural.

  299. Personally, I’d sign Lowry or another point guard and keep all of our assets.

  300. Chorus:
    Ky-le Lo-wry (dum-dum-dum-dum-dum) Ky-le Lo-wry (dum-dum-dum-dum-dum)

    Draft, trades, free agents, so many possibilities, really fascinating…
    BigBlueAl’s “excited and nervous” sums it really well…

  301. Till now I’m sold only on two FA Pgs.
    Lowry and Schroeder.
    Both are edgy, ballsy and “feel” to me like the missing piece on our young softy starting unit.
    My only concern is if their teams might try to sign and trade them instead of just letting them go.
    I’d love to pay them but not also lose valuable assets to get them.
    In that case we may have to get one more stopgap till we get THE MAN on point guard position.

  302. The Athletic is saying that we’re still trying to move up into the mid-lottery. After all, isn’t the #8 pick always our destiny? Who might we be targeting? Sengun or Moody, possibly?

  303. JK47: One problem with Dennis Schroeder is that he sucks

    Yeah, but otoh the debates here at KB will be EPIC! ;P

  304. #One problem with Dennis Schroeder is that he sucks#

    If he sucks like Julius did one year ago then we may have find our next starting PG!

  305. At this point I don’t mind just trading for Sexton, hopefully keeping a 1st rd pick for this year, then just do a few smart FA signings like last year and go into the 2022 summer with cap room and see who they can add before re-signing Randle and potentially Sexton.

    I’ll have no problem with going into next season with Randle and a young core of Sexton/RJ/Mitch/IQ and whoever they draft with one of the 1st rd picks or even if its just the 32nd pick. Re-sign one or more of Bullock/Rose/Burks/Noel and maybe another decent mid-level veteran FA we arent thinking about and see what happens next year while still having flexibility for 2022.

  306. i’ve gone back and forth a schroeder more than a few times during his career…right now though – i’m a pretty solid no on having him on our roster…

  307. Not liking a game of Russian Roullete where Sexton and Schroder are loaded in two of the chambers.

  308. Did you just watch In and of Itself, Owen? It’s feeling like there are bullets in every chamber.

  309. Owen: Not liking a game of Russian Roullete where Sexton and Schroder are loaded in two of the chambers.

    This deserves a GIF… you and Jowles are Robert De Niro trying to prevent me (Christopher Walken) to trade for Sexton! ;D

  310. But if you’re real, this is not like the old #lolKnicks, because i didn’t see no one saying they absolutely love Sexton, and that it’s a home run, we just think taking a flyer on a guy clearly on the rise for so little value (let’s be real again, everybody here knows that our hopes about Obi are kind of like the hopes we had for [redacted], right? it might happen, but it isn’t very likely) is one of the best options we’ll have this summer, and that we should take it. No one is advocating to extend him or max him, hell someone posted the rookies that are maxed each year and you guys avoid taking that into consideration because it doesn’t fit your Sexton take.

  311. @Brian: Sorry man, when i first read the post i stopped at the poll and felt compelled to start the debate right away missing your link about Torrey Craig. I’m going to read it now and then i’ll come up with a comment on that. ;)

  312. LOL, Varejao had a lot of luck, when i was reading the article i first thought “what a dumb guy, he’ll never be a NBA Champion again”, but good for him the Warriors did re-sign him and, well, that they’d win that year was easy. But also lucky again that they decided to also be loyal and gave the ring to him.
    This is a great BASKETBALL URBAN LEGEND right there, congrats Brian. And you’re right, the answer is not easy, i think i’d refuse the ring if i lose, if i’m Craig, but not if i’m Varejao (he had a career with the team offering him the ring, not 201 minutes like Craig has on the Bucks).
    Oh and btw, of course the Bucks will offer him the ring, if they win this is going to be so huge for them that they’ll even offer the ring to the 2-way guys if they played at least a second of the season.

  313. I was just thinking about how we passed on Mikal Bridges and had a moment of clarity about that period that I had forgotten. At the time, it wasn’t even clear he would drop down to us. Many of us feared he was going to be selected before we came up.

    I remember sitting in my living room with a beer feeling a moment of exhilaration when he fell because I expected the worst. The fact that he kind of unexpectedly fell to us and we still didn’t take him sucks even worse.

    It was pretty much the same thing with Halliburton

  314. Ron Artest, too. In fact, that might have been the turning point of the franchise. Letting an interim GM fuck up a major draft pick, kicking off decades of misery.

  315. After thinking on it some more, I can accept this plan with a Dame trade:
    1. Obi, Knox, 19, 21, next year’s first, and the other Dallas first for Dame(we’d have to wait until after the draft to do this- so Portland would have to tell us who they want at 19)
    2. Draft a wing at 32 or trade 32 & 58 to get back into the 1st to get our wing.
    3. Re-sign Rose, Bullock, Noel, and Taj.
    4. Sign Melo to back up Julius and RJ.
    5. Bring Ntilikina back after his market fails him or see if we can get Otto Porter for cheap.
    6. Stay healthy and defend hard.
    7. Win chip.
    That’s it yal! I figured it out! LOL

    Jokes aside, that would be a nice offseason. Don’t know how or if that works, but that is the one way I’d trade for Dame. Until that happens..we stay the course and sign a vet PG to mentor Quickley, Vildoza, and possibly Butler, Cooper, Hyland, or Mann.

  316. I remember when Philly picked Bridges thinking he would be the final piece in the championship puzzle for them, only to see them trade him a few minutes later for no apparent reason. Imagine how Sixers fans are feeling watching him play in the finals for the Suns.

  317. If a computer had auto drafted for Philadelphia instead of Colangelo, they would have a top 4 of Simmons-Bridges-Tatum-Embiid.

    But the process failed (eye roll emoji).

  318. Totes McGoats as Totes McGoats: 1. Obi, Knox, 19, 21, next year’s first, and the other Dallas first for Dame(we’d have to wait until after the draft to do this- so Portland would have to tell us who they want at 19)

    Totes, i’m pretty sure Obi, 3-on-3 GOAT and 4 first round picks outside of the lottery won’t get you a future HoF.

  319. cybersoze: Totes, i’m pretty sure Obi, 3-on-3 GOAT and 4 first round picks outside of the lottery won’t get you a future HoF.

    Yeah, at this point Obi is a first-year disappointment, and Knox a minor salary dump. They’d almost certainly want RJB, and maybe even Mitch.

    I wonder if they’d have any interest in Randle rather than RJB?

  320. I wonder how Hinkie would’ve drafted had he gotten to finish The Process. He drafted Michael Carter Williams, Embiid, Dario Saric, and Jahlil Okafar. Everything from then on has been Colangelo/Brand.

    Hubert:
    If a computer had auto drafted for Philadelphia instead of Colangelo, they would have a top 4 of Simmons-Bridges-Tatum-Embiid.

    But the process failed (eye roll emoji).

  321. The Process definitely failed for Hinkie. I think a good question is if he ever got another GM job, would he do it again? A good part of the tanking strategies viability is will the GM and Coach survive to see it’s fruition. My feeling is most of the time they won’t. We’ll see what happens with Presti.

  322. Hold up, Hinkie was forced out before the Sixers even got to draft Ben Simmons. I think his grade is at worst an incomplete. I’d argue that Hinkie’s tenure was so effective at stockpiling assets that Colangelo, Brown, and Brand had a huge safety net to whiff on multiple lottery picks and free agent signings and still end up with a top Eastern Conference contending team.

    Here’s what Hinkie’s successors did with his war chest:
    1. Trading up for Markelle Fultz in the 2017 draft (Colangelo)
    2. Trading for Jimmy Butler, and later letting him walk (Brand)
    3. Trading for Tobias Harris (Brand).

    Without Hinkie’s work, the Sixers would either be stuck in mediocrity, or would have blown it up by now and started rebuilding again.

  323. The Honorable Cock Jowles:
    Did you just watch In and of Itself, Owen? It’s feeling like there are bullets in every chamber.

    I watched it a while back. Didn’t want to make it too grisly a post but yea, that was my thought, being a Knicks fan feels like there is one empty chamber and the rest are loaded with empty volume scorers.

    And agree, this team would be quite different with Mikal Bridges and Halliburton.

  324. Do we really have to debate the 76ers and the “Process” again?

    It’s obvious that tanking will eventually work. It will work even better if all your top lottery picks are out for a season or two and you aren’t improving. That way you keep ending up higher in the lottery than the talent of the team warrants and keep making high picks (kind of like we were fortunate in some way to get RJ because KP was out).

    The issue is whether it will work fast enough to be considered much better than other alternatives for rebuilding, whether you’ll get fired because the entire league, every agent, and a lot of players hate you for treating people like spreadsheet entries, and whether too many of your season ticket holders die of boredom or old age by the time you start playing well. Also, with the lottery changes and even greater tendency to draft young teenagers the draft is less valuable.

    The answer is it works but people don’t do because it sucks in a lot of ways in the real world of human beings, business, and the league.

    A team like OKC may not have much choice but to at least start out that way because if the Knicks couldn’t get free agents and trade prospects to come to NY when they sucked you can imagine what it’s going to be like for OKC. They have to try to get lucky in the draft a few times.

  325. Doug Chu:
    I wonder how Hinkie would’ve drafted had he gotten to finish The Process. He drafted Michael Carter Williams, Embiid, Dario Saric, and Jahlil Okafar. Everything from then on has been Colangelo/Brand.

    And he wisely flipped MCW for a first round pick that the dummies later used to move up for Fultz, IIRC.

    Yeah, I give him an I. I wonder if he’d had a couple more years how Philly would’ve ended up. It’ll be real fun to see what OKC does with their warchest.

  326. If a computer had auto drafted for Philadelphia instead of Colangelo, they would have a top 4 of Simmons-Bridges-Tatum-Embiid.

    Boston was only willing to trade the #1 pick because they knew Tatum was going to be there at #3. So a better drafting GM wouldn’t have helped the Sixers in that specific draft.

  327. I was just thinking about how we passed on Mikal Bridges and had a moment of clarity about that period that I had forgotten. At the time, it wasn’t even clear he would drop down to us. Many of us feared he was going to be selected before we came up.

    We knew before the draft that he was pretty much a 99.9% chance to be there, because the Cavs had made it clear they wanted Sexton and all of the other picks were clear ahead of time. It was in the months leading up to the draft that there was a lot of consternation about whether he’d be there or not. I used to, like, celebrate any rumor that suggested that, like, Sexton was rising or Bamba. :D And I liked Bamba a lot, too, but at least it meant Bridges would be there!

  328. Clearly there are people who are emotionally invested in the narrative that The Process failed, so they’re going to just distort the facts to suit that narrative. We’ve been over this repeatedly.

    It’s like trying to explain to a MAGA why it’s a good idea to get a Covid vaccine. You’re wasting your time.

  329. will not comment on integrity of the game, allegiance to fans – but, i bet hinkie cheats at damn near everything…

    yes, karma is a mirror – hopefully we don’t have to stare at dolan’s reflection anymore while viewing the knicks…

  330. Zach Harper on Jalen Suggs in Toronto, “A healthy, calmer season for the Raptors should see that core back in the playoffs, and it gives them their lead guard for the next 15 years.”

    Huh?

  331. Sources: Great news for potential first-round NBA pick Jared Butler of Baylor: The NBA’s fitness-to-play panel has medically cleared Butler to play in the NBA. https://t.co/vr66gB5ejI— Shams Charania (@ShamsCharania) July 17, 2021

    Great news for one of my favorite potential targets with one of our firsts

  332. Yeah I’ve read a few statistical models that say Jared Butler should be a Top 10 pick.

  333. Brian Cronin:
    Zach Harper on Jalen Suggs in Toronto, “A healthy, calmer season for the Raptors should see that core back in the playoffs, and it gives them their lead guard for the next 15 years.”

    Huh?

    Huh like Lowry is still there? Or huh like how will he drop that far?

    I like Suggs. I like him better than Cade I think (although not much of a draftnik.)

  334. Huh like Lowry is still there? Or huh like how will he drop that far?

    “Huh” like, “Who projects a player playing for any team for fifteen seasons?”

  335. I wasn’t saying the process doesn’t work, but if you lose your job before completing you plan, how can that be considered a success.

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