Would You Include RJ Barrett in a Trade for Damian Lillard?

Simply put, this is basically, “Would you trade for Dame if you were the Knicks?” as it seems highly unlikely that they would be able to get a deal done without including RJ Barrett. Heck, in a recent article, Ian Begley noted that no one he talked to around the league believed that the Knicks could get a deal for Dame together that didn’t include Barrett.

Obviously, just RJ wouldn’t be enough, either, but I was just wondering if you’d even include him in a deal for Lillard.

Would you include RJ Barrett in a trade for Damian Lillard?

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437 thoughts to “Would You Include RJ Barrett in a Trade for Damian Lillard?”

  1. As a Lillard fan without deep ties to this current Knicks team, I can say yes to this question without much consideration. I have, admittedly, seen very little of Barrett. What I have seen didn’t blow me away, and his overall numbers aren’t much for box score readers to drool over. He seems like a good guy, is durable, and works hard. But I’m not sure I’d really covet him if I’m Portland. His shooting is improved, but his efficiency still isn’t very good, and he’s not cheap for a 21 year old. Isn’t the perk of doing business with the Knicks that they don’t need to take back any salary at all?

  2. ***(it’d be amazing times, that’s for sure), but…the timing is not right for us.***

    You sound like Tom Hanks in Bachelor Party deliberating whether to sleep with the naked hooker in his bed. But your not getting married to the Knicks, and, even if you were, they certainly aren’t Tawny Kitaen. Take the amazing times. Enjoy them. You only live once.

  3. If the Knicks trade RJ and whatever for Lillard, do you believe the front office can assemble a championship-level roster around Lillard in the MAYBE four years you’ve got before he seriously declines? I’m not sure I trust Knicks management to go from surprisingly-not-completely-incompetent to “Championship or bust!”

    Mike

  4. They should all be fired if they put together a package that includes Barrett and a bunch of 1st round picks, I said it in the previous thread and I believe it. Either the people writing these articles don’t know what they are talking about or they are all trolling Knicks fans.

  5. Another 9000 post blog dissecting the permutations and combinations of a potential Knicks trade for an all star that will never happen.

  6. Looking at Begleys trades, we’d still have more assets than at almost anytime in the last 20 years. We can probably pull off a trade for a disgruntled 3rd star if we needed to.

    We could throw 4 1sts & a metric crapton of 2nds.

    Trading for Dame based on where we are now isn’t insane. I will say it depends on what you think of Thibs’ defense & his regular season vs postseason success. If you don’t believe Thibs can maintain a top defense, don’t do it.

  7. Voted NO. Complete list of players that for me are off-limit in a Dame trade: RJ Barrett.

  8. Donnie Walsh: You sound like Tom Hanks in Bachelor Party deliberating whether to sleep with the naked hooker in his bed. But your not getting married to the Knicks, and, even if you were, they certainly aren’t Tawny Kitaen. Take the amazing times. Enjoy them. You only live once.

    LOL! You’re very funny, Donnie. ;) The problem is that the amazing times will be below the climax (championship), are you signing up for that?

  9. Another 9000 post blog dissecting the permutations and combinations of a potential Knicks trade for an all star that will never happen.

    i concur…well then mister bauer, give us something juicy to chew on, or at least ponder…

    the floor is yours – whatcha got man?

  10. Nope.

    RJ is going to be a great player. We have him on a rookie deal for 3 more seasons. His extension will still be way less than DAME. And if you look at his numbers this year and the jump he made, he is in some pretty good company. Another jump like he had this year and he’s an all-star in the making.

    I’m not saying RJ is going to be as good as DAME at his peak but he does a lot of things well and is a two-way player and minutes soaker and he’s kind of versatile too. That’s a useful player to have. Besides, I don’t want us to go all in right now. I want us to build slowly. We hit on a solid rotation player with just one of our first rounders and now our youth collection goes from good to really good. We hit on both of them (and I’m talking rotation/fringe starter level) then we are in amazing shape. Lets keep building on what we got. People seem to think we can’t replicate or improve on what we did last year and I disagree hard.

    Sure, Randle could regress. Or he could be even slightly better next year. RJ, IQ and Obi should all improv. If Mitch is healthy all year, he’s an upgrade from Noel on both sides. Villadoza can be better than Elf I think and we might have a full season of Rose too. Throw in our picks and cap space and there is no reason to think we can’t replicate and improve on what we did last year. Sure maybe all the vets ain’t coming back but some probably will and we can probably sign one really good free agent to boot.

  11. I said yes, but conditionally. For me, RJ is still in a Richard Jefferson / Rudy Gay trajectory, and although it is great to see him grow, I believe his efficiency will drag his game for his career (hopefully I am wrong). If his value is high, I don’t mind trading him. Al Jefferson was a great project and was traded for Garnett (which admittedly is better than Lillard) and that was a great trade for the Celts.

    My condition is on the rest of the moves. Lillard + Randle does not make it. We need another player. If we can somehow get another great player, then go for it. If not, then I would keep the powder dry. I think I would be fine if we get Ball in FA and Lillard via trade.

    Also, I am much more against trading Mitch. I think he is being undervalued right now and we should definitely keep him, and also Noel if it is possible. Having a real defense at C really changed the team and made it competitive.

  12. I voted yes with a caveat: I’d trade RJ if his presence significantly lowers the total number of assets we have to give up for Dame. Dame is really good, you guys, and will continue to be so for at least four years, even if he doesn’t follow the CP3 age curve. NBA teams turn over so rapidly these days that fretting about the 10-year pan seems besides the point. If we can add Dame to Randle, Quickley, Mitch, and at least some of our remaining picks, I think that’s a hell of a team with a higher ceiling over the next several seasons than one where Randle and RJ are our two best players. But gutting the team of RJ and a whole lot more is much less enticing.

  13. No because it would cost a ton in addition to RJ for a 31 year old making 40 mill a year. We wont be as limited compared to the Melo trade but Lillard is 5 years older so a very slim window for contending.

  14. I’d trade RJ for SGA but Dame? Not unless it was just him and maybe one first.

  15. I think that’s a hell of a team with a higher ceiling over the next several seasons than one where Randle and RJ are our two best players.

    I don’t think anyone is pretending that Randle and RJ will continue to be our two best players and we’ll be contenders… it needs another piece or two…. but we have significant cap room to add those one or two pieces… here’s how it breaks out to:

    Team A
    pg: Lillard
    sg: Bullock?
    sf: Burks?
    pf: Randle
    c: Robinson

    vs.

    Team B
    pg: Dinwiddie/other pg of your choosing signed this offseason
    sg: Lavine or Beal
    sf: Barrett
    pf: Randle
    c: Robinson

    Team B is a a very attainable roster with not so crazy assumptions… .it’s also younger… has more picks… and a much deeper bench…. and actually has higher upside…. Team A is a very shallow team who’s capped out and is reliant on 30 yo + career role players repeating career years…

    I kind of think our plan is leaning towards Team B at the moment… pg choice is obviously still up in the air… but more or less we’re grabbing some pg this year and playing free agency next year…. and the result could be championship caliber rather quickly but also sustainable for the next decade….

    i have severe doubts that adding lillard to last year’s team has us sniffing contention at any point… and if it’s not happening the first year those odds get worse every year thereafter…. so it needs to be clearly established that we are on the short list of contenders when we deal for him or else it’s just lighting msg on fire… and if there’s no significant third piece in the discussion it’s not worth having….

  16. djphan, how exactly are we acquiring LaVine or Beal? Their teams will demand a lot of assets, too. And if anyone protest that they come with fewer years under contract, the counter is that both are much younger. You’re gutting the team to bring in any of these guys. Dame is just better and more reliable than the other two, even if he’s older.

  17. ***The problem is that the amazing times will be below the climax (championship), are you signing up for that?***

    Yeah, man. Championship Or Bust is a player’s mentality, not a fan’s mentality. We don’t get any real fulfillment from winning a championship. These are the players fantasies, not ours. We’re just here to watch. Personally, I’m at an age where I prefer to watch good basketball than bad basketball, and I really don’t care about the name of the city on the front of the uniform. I don’t believe that the Knicks are going to win a championship with or without Lillard over the next 5 years. But it would be good for the league, the Knicks, and their fan base to finally have a great PG at the Garden to watch play his ass off every single game.

  18. lavine and/or beal are likely free agents next offseason (that’s not even accounting for a superfriend breakup in brooklyn with durant/harden or potentially steph curry freeing up either_….and if we’re looking at trade routes at the deadline their teams have a lot less leverage since they are either trading them for something or getting nothing if they can’t entice them to stay…

    obi and maybe quickley/pick19/21 + one maybe future firsts (kawhi deal as precedent) probably get it done if we want them half a year early.. and that’s probably worth it and it’s also a very cheap price if they’re resigning with us….

    in any case.. next summer is intriguing enough to keep options open until then vs selling out for lillard now…

  19. I know there’s not a lot of “real” news to talk about,
    but this two-threads discussion is quickly transforming into a WMT (Weapon Of Mas-Turbation).

  20. what i want to happen – keep RJ, add point guard and wing talent through free agencies and the draft, julius signs his extension, we figure out a way to keep nerlens

    what should happen for the best interest of the team – trade julius if he doesn’t sign the extension, trade RJ for an established “star”, draft 3 players

    what is most likely to happen – we draft 2 decent players, julius signs the extension (the 2 and 2 one), and we add a point guard and wing in free agency, re-sign reggie, rose and taj

    what actually happens – who the flip knows, except maybe hubie – he’s hot right now in the whole nba prognostication world

  21. Bottom line, if Randle bets on himself, we have to wait to see the results.

    I respectfully disagree. If Randle bets on himself, the two outcomes are:

    A) he regresses and we wasted his current trade value

    B) he repeats this season and earns a contract that we will regret immediately

    Waiting is death.

    I would make it very clear to Randle that if he bets on himself, he will have to prove it on another team. Portland is the perfect trading partner bc they’re desperate and will overpay. If we wait til the season starts, they will have likely blown their ammo by then.

  22. and i also don’t have to emphasize how stupendous and great it would be to entice a major player to come here and only sacrifice cap space to do it…. we would have a great core all in their 20s with a bench full of 2nd and 3rd year players with a fistful of picks incoming to plug in any gap or go after another star if one disappoints…

    i mean that is the dream…. and it’s attainable if some things break right for us… and we’re really only competing with dallas… and maaaybe the pelicans..maaybe the raptors… in terms of teams with cap room and desirability of destination….

    all this is kind of obvious….. but it does make me giddy to think about since we’re very close to it right now… if we don’t screw it up…

  23. okay, a bit of a slow nba news day – since jack seems to be busy saving – something, i’ll ask:

    is there anyone else here who plays those sixty minute (or more) pop song loops – right now i’m stuck on marian hill’s down

  24. @Totes & others,

    I woke up in a bad mood today and shouldn’t have started posting. I was overly argumentative and outta line.

    I know what you were saying now that I’m actually awake and get it. I could’ve been more civil about it. Starting flamewars is what my Twitter account is for.

    I still disagree but should have gone about it better. Stay positive

  25. If you noticed a kinder, gentler, more handsome THCJ emerge a few years back, know it’s not just living with a smart, cool, modelesque babe nor legal medical-grade botanicals — it’s very much Facebook and Twitter (and Nextdoor and so on) being fully deleted from my life. Highly recommended.

    Do not delete RJ from this roster. Imagine me saying that eight months ago.

  26. Well done Jowles!
    Mainly for the smart, cool, modelesque babe,
    but deleting Facebook and Twitter isn’t bad too…

  27. I killed Facebook awhile ago. Best thing you can do. I have Twitter but I never use it. It’s always annoyed me.

  28. i concur…well then mister bauer, give us something juicy to chew on, or at least ponder…
    the floor is yours – whatcha got man?

    I’ll go with this team needs a starting point guard in the worst way (for about the last 20+ years) and a starting caliber small forward. That’s what they should be focusing on in the draft and/or free agency. I like the idea of signing Lowry as all it will cost is Dolan’s money (and really who gives a shit about that?). Then re-sign Rose and the rotation looks like Lowry, Rose, Viladoza (or whatever his name is) at the 1. That’s not too bad and it doesn’t cost any first round picks and/or any young players. Maybe Cameron Payne from Phoenix if he becomes a FA.

    The small forward issue is a little more difficult. I’d re-sign Bullock as the back up 3 and draft at least one in the upcoming draft. Not sure who would be available in FA, but it would make sense to look hard at that for an upgrade, again spending Dolan’s cash freely if possible.

    Gutting this team now and trading away most or all of the decent youngsters especially RJ, and/or future high picks, seems stupidly Knicksy to me.

  29. I basically only use Facebook for self-promotion and to wish people happy birthday. Twitter is the habit I haven’t been able to bring myself to kick, alas.

  30. If you noticed a kinder, gentler, more handsome THCJ emerge a few years back

    We didn’t.

  31. You all obviously know which way I voted.

    I would not include RJ Barrett in any trades right now simply because he would not yield enough back. I really don’t want the 31 year old PG scheduled to make $250M over the next 5 years on my team in place of the 21 year old elite (yes, elite) wing prospect with two more years on his rookie deal. Can anybody say with any real certainty that 33 year old Dame Lillard, who may have logged more minutes at point guard than anybody in the league since he’s been drafted, will be better than 23 year old RJ Barrett?

  32. Not very exciting post here, but for the record I voted yes but only because the question was so vague. For example, a pretty nigh impossible trade such as Dred just suggested would be a go (except it would never happen). The other option would be if they had a clear plan to also somehow pick up a really good starting wing that would be a significant upgrade over RJ. And no, no obvious examples here, just saying that mystery scenario would be a go. But much as I love Dame I wouldn’t empty the store just for him, and RJ is a big part of that store. So none of the other trade scenarios being discussed are an option for me (except Dred’s).

  33. I voted yes.

    I would love to root for Lillard 82 games/year for the next four years. I do not believe the Knicks roster would be as strong as the top 6 teams (assuming health). It still would be amazing to watch Lillard as the primary creator and Randle as the secondary.

    The big opportunity cost in trading RJ (plus picks and salary filler) for Lillard is that it would end the dream of reuniting Zion and RJ. I have no idea how likely Zion is to try to force his way out of New Orleans (by refusing his extension next off season), how likely he would be to succeed, or how likely he would end up in NY if he forced a trade. If he makes an All-NBA team in the next few years, he could be walking way from about $100M by forcing his way out of New Orleans.

    If I knew that there was a >25% chance that keeping RJ would mean getting Zion in the next three years, I would not trade RJ for Lillard. So my “yes” vote might be reversed if I had full information about Zion’s plans.

  34. Just say no to Dame. We’re not good enough to make that kind of trade.

    @Hubert Why would Portland give up so much for 1 year of Randle?

  35. I woke up in a bad mood today and shouldn’t have started posting. I was overly argumentative and outta line.

    your sense and sensibility brings guilt to my own mind EB, that could though just be years of attending catholic mass as a kid…

    i will say – youngest god child is seven, some mornings he just wakes up mean mugging, he’s been mellowing a bit the last couple of months, but it still makes me laugh…i give him some space and time to get it together, but, i’m wondering how young is too young to introduce someone to coffee in the morning…

  36. For what it’s worth, if we mostly cleared the deck in a trade for Lillard we would still have around $30M in cap space after. A little more if we included Mitch and Quickley in the deal, a little less if held on to either pick this year, but the point is we’d still have rather substantial cap space remaining.

    We could probably sign DeRozan and someone else, just to give one example. There are other options obviously e.g. signing a bunch of depth pieces instead of trying to reel in another big free agent.

    If we just signed one-year deals to try to carry over the space for 2022, we couldn’t quite get up to the max number for LaVine, but we might be close enough that he’d be willing to take a discount.

    The absolute best-case scenario in terms of star potential would be:

    Lillard
    LaVine
    ???
    Randle
    ???

    The bench would, of course, also consist of question marks that in real life would presumably be 2nd round picks, UDFAs, vet-minimum signings, etc.

    We could also assemble something like:

    Lillard
    Bullock or Burks on a deal paying one of them $9M AAV
    DeRozan on a deal paying him $20M AAV
    Randle
    Mitch

    We’d still have around $6.7M in space as well as the room exception (not combinable to my knowledge) in this scenario. Maybe that entices Rose and a backup center?

    At the end of the day, I voted no because I don’t think any of these teams could compete with the real contenders during the remainder of Lillard’s prime. It is worth pointing out though that it’s not quite true we’d be whittled down to Dame, Randle, and scrubs.

  37. I didn’t know how to answer. I’d obviously trade RJ and something else for Dame in a reasonable deal. But I generally don’t want to do a deal that would happen in the real world. So i voted no. But RJ isn’t the dealbreaker.

    Just did a sous vide ribeye with a stovetop sear and feeling very full and very proud of myself. (although it’s dead simple.)

  38. The Bucks had too much veteran and playoff experience for the Hawks, but the Hawks have a good mix of young and veteran talent. They have upside and are going to be tougher next year.

  39. Knickerblogger’s back! I was worried there for most of the day that Mike K. had bugged out and left us.

    Hubert, are you going to hedge your bet, after all? Or just let the Suns bet ride on its own?

  40. I can imagine Strat hitting refresh 900 times a minute just to get that Reddish comment posted…

  41. I really am happy for the Bucks that their big trade ultimately paid off for them.

    Also, is Budz not fired then?

  42. Well, i guess Knickerblogger entered the covid protocols for 24h to keep us safe. LOL

  43. Cam Reddish had 2 good games, i guess that settles it, he’s on his way to be a superstar.

  44. Brian Cronin: I really am happy for the Bucks that their big trade ultimately paid off for them.
    Also, is Budz not fired then?

    If bad results would get him fired, i think the opposite should keep him safe.
    In what world would we be if KD didn’t step on the 3P line? Giannis would be a loser, Budz fired, Middleton and Holiday overrated, and we didn’t had the chance to appreciate the Brook Lopez game 5 show. That’s the beauty of sports, it can go several ways depending on talent and… luck.

  45. Bucks vs Suns without Giannis would suck, so I hope he’s ready to play from Game 1.

    ——

    On merit, I do think it makes a ton more sense to trade Julius Randle than it does to trade RJ Barrett. You’d get more back in a trade, you’ve literally already drafted his replacement, and you’re not maxing out a guy who probably isn’t a max salary player. I do think there’s a lot more utility in Julius Randle’s game if you make P&R finishing a bigger part of his scoring, but I also think Julius Randle will never be more valuable on the trade market than he is right now.

  46. cybersoze:
    Well, i guess Knickerblogger entered the covid protocols for 24h to keep us safe. LOL

    Fortunately, the test was a false positive

  47. Assuming you are dying to make a trade, then Randle indeed is probably our best trade asset and maybe is at his peak value But if your team building philosophy is to get some good players and then get some more good players to add to them, then you might want to keep him and look for someone to play with him Instead of someone to play in place of him.

  48. I wonder..
    Was last night more the result of Bud out-coaching McMillan or Trae not being right? I dunno..this series felt like a healthy Trae would have had the Hawks winning in 6 with or without Giannis. One really good thing came out of that series though. Middleton is legit. He answered a lot of critics in these playoffs. Good for him. Bud should buy him a watch or car or something lol. Middleton just saved his job.

    Btw..I am rooting for Chris Paul even harder now. Go Suns

  49. > Knickerblogger’s back! I was worried there for most of the day that Mike K. had bugged out and left us.

    After getting the site back online and the results of this poll, I was seriously considering it. Yes giving away the whole farm for Dame is too much, but RJB isn’t a bridge too far for me. However his inclusion should reduce the cost from 4 firsts (2+ 2 swaps) + IQ, Obi, etc. . Honestly the swaps don’t bother me much, since I expect the Knicks with Dame to be better so no swap will actually occur.

    But as others have said, Randle isn’t a 1A star, and I think he’s better suited as second banana. As I understand it, the Knicks will still have plenty of cap space to sign more players. Dame + Randle makes a formidable 1-2. In theory they’d still have some young players + free agents might be more willing to come for a chance at a ring in NYC.

    In 5 of the last 6 years, Dame has been a first or second team All-NBA player, received MVP votes, and has been very healthy. I don’t think any of the assets the Knicks would give up in a deal will have the same (or combined) accolades/impact?

  50. Nice to see Mike K come out from behind the curtain, although a new avatar is in order.

    cybersoze:
    Cam Reddish had 2 good games, i guess that settles it, he’s on his way to be a superstar.

    It settles nothing, but it suggests that the haterz (btw the same crowd that hated on Devin Booker) should chill for a while. He played very well in huge games, that’s a nice sign of things to come.

  51. I also don’t get the Budz hate, he’s not an all-time great coach or anything, but he’s working with a clunky team to coach on the offensive end.

    And Nate deserves an apology from some here, he did an exceptional job with the Hawks this playoffs. Their defense in particular was really good considering the personnel he has to work with. He’s also not an asshole. I hope he gets a nice contract off of this postseason run, he deserves it.

  52. I like Budz as a coach. However, I believe Milwaukee would have let him go if they didn’t reach the Finals because that team is just too regular season good to not make it to at least one Finals appearance with Giannis being otherworldly these past few seasons. I really wanted to see Atlanta there because I am amazed at the job Nate McMillan has done since he’s taken over. Should be a fun Finals though. Still..go Suns. Giannis has plenty of time to win one. Maybe he asks out and we can trade Jules and a shitload of firsts for him LOL. I kid. Unless of course that deal becomes available

  53. If any of you would rather have RJ work on his game over the summer than go to the Olympics, your wish has been granted.

    Chicago Bulls guard Tomas Satoransky ended Canada’s Olympics hopes as the bank was open for the Czech Republic. Satoransky finished with 18p 7r 5a in a heroic effort. RJ Barrett led Canada with team-highs 23p 6a but had 2 crucial misses late in OT.
    https://twitter.com/alderalmo/status/1411452402981560326

  54. Budz is a good coach whose teams for years underperformed expectations in the playoffs, I’m happy that he has (probably) saved his job with this Finals.

    I wasn’t 100% convinced by ATL somewhat lucky 8-0 start under McMillan (easy schedule, close wins…), but he cleared my doubts and did a splendid job, trasforming the offense-only Hawks in a well rounded and complete team and developing Trae from a great talent to a superstar, able to cut on his threes and involve his teammates more while still getting his 30-a-game.
    McMillan is an underrated coach, I still don’t get his Pacers’ firing…

  55. Someone named Blake Schilb put up 31 pts for Czech. Seems like Canada should have won just based off number of NBA players.

    RJ shooting 11/20 on FTs over the course of the tournament is a little concerning or at least a head scratcher.

  56. I think this team should still be in asset accumulation mode. It’s too soon for Dame, and I highly doubt he even wants to leave Portland.

    As someone said earlier, though, it must be tempting for the FO to sell high on Julius. He’s kind of like found money at this point.

    Would Golden State give up the 7 and 14 for him? Or a pick and Wiseman? With those picks we could possibly move up for Suggs or else just leave this draft with a haul of guys to add to our Toppin/RJ/Mitch/Quick core. Plus, you still have tons of cap space (although maybe you take back Ourbre in a S&T).

    Sure, you’re sort of moving back on the timeline, but with a lot more draft capital.

  57. ess-dog: As someone said earlier, though, it must be tempting for the FO to sell high on Julius. He’s kind of like found money at this point.

    Agreed, and it would make a ton of sense to trade Julius if we could get a great package for him. But it would also be a huge PR conundrum considering how popular he is and how exciting the team was this year. It would possibly be a turn-off for FAs in the same way that getting top dollar for Isaiah Thomas still came with a significant PR hit that may have turned off FAs like Anthony Davis, even though Isiah never played at a high level again.

    Making the smart but unpopular move is maybe the toughest part of GMing. It would have been smart to amnesty Amare instead of Billups, but Amare was at peak popularity then. While not analogous to Julius’s situation, it is the same kind of dilemma. The good news is that keeping Julius is not necessarily a bad move, just a concerning one…it kind of means either we will have to max him or let him go for nothing, unless he defies the odds and goes for the $100 mill extension. Maxing him locks you in to thinking of him as either a 1A or a 2 player in building a “Big 3.” Certainly feasible, but unsettling based on his playoff performance.

  58. ***If any of you would rather have RJ work on his game over the summer than go to the Olympics, your wish has been granted.***

    The rj barrett stan account has the summer off to work on its game, too.

  59. ess-dog: Would Golden State give up the 7 and 14 for him? Or a pick and Wiseman?

    If I could get either of these packages for Randle I would do it.

  60. the general issue that i have with the begley dame rumors is that it’s really just stopping there as if dame alone is enough… i think we can all/mostly agree that it isn’t… but the problem is that what’s the plan to fill out the rest of the roster? is derozan the third guy? burks? are we praying we can maneuver lavine/beal on a s&t or actually leaving money on the table? are we bringing back the band? is it a new band of misfit vets?

    there’s a lot of open and iffy questions for a move that’s basically all-in … and i imagine if we theoretically go for it that we would have a path for the rest of the roster figured out…. but without a clear path for the rest of the roster… that’s a lot of risk to take on considering what you would supposedly give up in a deal…

  61. I think we’re undervaluing Julius Randle to be honest.

    Yes, he was bad in the playoffs. But he’s a prototypical NBA stretch four who gives you playmaking, and also played some pretty good goddamn defense. Next year will be his age 27 season. It seems completely nuts to me to trade him for the 7 and 14 picks in this year’s draft.

    Let’s attach actual names to those picks– you’re trading him for what, Franz Wagner and Corey Kispert? That level of prospect?

    Nah.

  62. Was last night more the result of Bud out-coaching McMillan or Trae not being right? I dunno..this series felt like a healthy Trae would have had the Hawks winning in 6 with or without Giannis.

    pretty sure the bucks figured out trae’s shtick in the spread pnr…. the hawks went iso a lot more than they usually do… and that’s partly because:

    a) they consistently went under on a lot of screens goading trae to shoot…
    b) they stepped up on the catch coverage with lopez and switched all with giannis…
    c) they had a defense that matched up better (e.g they don’t foul)

    the hawks already were pretty lucky beating the sixers (e.g negative point differential)… there’s only so much crazy hot shooting they can coax out of their entire roster… but reddish sure did try….

    the injuries do cloud things a bit but i think if you look at everything it’s pretty clear they just had a fortunate run…

  63. ***Would Golden State give up the 7 and 14 for him? Or a pick and Wiseman?***

    I don’t think there’s a trade with Golden State that works out salary wise, short of absorbing Wiggins (or possibly a sign-and-trade for Oubre, should he and the Knicks agree to it). That said, Randle would be a good addition to GS. If Wiseman, #7 and #14, and their 2022/2023 picks are on the table, which they probably should all be, it seems like something could get done, even if it involves a 3rd team.

  64. Bogdanovic was a little too confident saying he’ll play in the Olympics,
    Italy just stunned Serbia in Belgrade to win the ticket to Tokio.
    Another Hawk will play there: Gallo.

  65. Congrats Max. And Luka stunned Lithuania (silver in Rio’2016) in Kaunas.

  66. Greece vs Czech Republic gives one more ticket to the Olympics in 2 hours.
    Pitino’s squad is Thibsing hard!
    Let’s Do It Greekos!

  67. Czech Republic vs Canada was probably the best basketball game I’ve seen this year so far.
    CRAZY!
    Can’t Wait for GRE-CZE

  68. Knew Your Nicks:
    Greece vs Czech Republic gives one more ticket to the Olympics in 2 hours.
    Pitino’s squad is Thibsing hard!
    Let’s Do It Greekos!

    Let’s go Mediterranean friends! :-D

  69. Donnie Walsh: The rj barrett stan account has the summer off to work on its game, too.

    Oh I’m going nowhere. RJ Barrett led Canada all the way back from 10 down in the 4th quarter and if literally any of the other guys on Team Canada came to play, they’d be playing Greece (who they already beat) in the final qualifier today. RJ Barrett is the truth, will always be the truth, and the rest of you are in denial. It’s nobody’s fault but your own if you doubt him at this point.

  70. Also, you really only trade Julius Randle if it means you can get SGA. Tatum and Brown are going nowhere, so having SGA and Barrett to answer that 1-2 punch along with Obi Toppin and Mitch, you could really be cooking with gas. Quick, SGA, Barrett, Toppin, and Robinson would score a lot of points and wouldn’t be a bad team defensively, either. I don’t think there’s any other semi-acquirable asset in the NBA that makes sense for us to trade Julius Randle for.

    Getting SGA to NYK while moving Julius would probably look like:

    Julius Randle to GSW
    Picks 3, 14, and James Wiseman to OKC
    Picks 6, 7, and 21 to CLE
    SGA to NYK

    I’m not sure who gets left holding the Andrew Wiggins bag of beans for the next two years, but that’s basically the transfer of assets that makes the most sense for everyone involved. The Warriors get an All-NBA power forward to add to Steph, Klay, and Draymond, CLE (who already has long term answers at center and point guard) gets picks 6 and 7, in a draft where this kind of move makes sense, for the price of coming off of pick 3, OKC gets last year’s #2 overall pick, this year’s #3 overall pick, and pick 14 for the price of SGA and #6, and of course our Knicks get the best player in the trade and form the greatest Canadian 1-2 punch of all time.

    There’s no other trade that makes sense for Julius Randle. If you’re trading Julius Randle, you do it because you’re getting better and younger at the same time.

  71. Wait, we are trading Julius Randle for Andrew Wiggins? And that makes sense?

    Going to watch Luka highlights….

  72. Whoever we trade Randle for I hope that player averages 24 points, 10 rebounds and 6 assists a game while shooting 41 percent from 3 and 80 percent from the line and playing good defense. That’s the kind of player we need.

  73. Don’t we wish we signed Randle to a 4 year contract now? (I’m not mistaken on that, right?) He’s going into a contract year at just the wrong time.

  74. Owen: Wait, we are trading Julius Randle for Andrew Wiggins? And that makes sense?

    Tell me you missed the point without telling me you missed the point…

  75. JK47: It seems completely nuts to me to trade him for the 7 and 14 picks in this year’s draft.

    Yeah I take that one back. I just don’t think Randle is a #1 while Weisman may be, so I would look for a package around him plus picks.

  76. Whoever we trade Randle for we should also make sure they’re about to enter their prime years of production. Say 26 years old.

    We should also get someone who loves playing for our franchise.

  77. Sad for KYN and Bruno for missing the olympics, but happy for Max/Farfa and Slovene Knick for making it. Maybe one of you, or both, can bring back a medal. Silver or Bronze, because we all know which nation gets the gold. :P

  78. No trading of our main guys – Julius and RJ – for potential, please. We’re past that point in the win curve (rebuilding plan, or whatever you want to call it, no need for another 2 threads trying to define “win curve” :P). Only way to trade one of those guys is for a superstar.
    For example, i voted no on the poll because i think Dame and the money he’s making is harder to build around if his sidekick is Julius, but it’s worth exploring (Julius can sign the 2+2 extension, and make things easier for Leon). I’d do it all day round if the trade was Julius (and more) for Dame, because with RJ as his sidekick, and still on his rookie contract until 2023, we’d have 2 offseasons to lure another max player to join Dame here, and all while RJ is growing to be the star that he’s going to be. It’s official, i’ve joined team optimist. :D

  79. bidiong the not so great: Don’t we wish we signed Randle to a 4 year contract now? (I’m not mistaken on that, right?) He’s going into a contract year at just the wrong time.

    Mills did a lot of things wrong – THJ’s contract (and this one is looking good nowadays, but at the time was an overpay), Baker’s contract, KP’s return was not optimal (we won the trade, but maybe we could’ve extracted more), the Fiz hire, and more – but clearly Randle’s contract is not one of them. He nailed that one, because if he was a bust, it was only 2 years and 4M guaranteed on the 3rd year, probably easy to dump him on the 2nd year, if he played great we’d have 3 years and the salary was about right for the max extension to be great for both sides. I don’t think i remember a better structured contract on the Knicks in the last 20 years.
    And no, it’s not the wrong time, the 2022 free agent class is gonna be packed with good players, we still have (a lot of) options. And he’s making peanuts for his play, so if we decide to trade him we’ll get a lot back. Definitely the best move Mills made. A clear WIN, don’t take that away from him, because there’s not a lot more he has to show. :P

  80. Does anyone here think the Knicks can be title contenders with Julius Randle making $35 million a year (around 33% of the cap)? I don’t.

    The Knicks need to really think about trading him if he doesn’t sign an extension this offseason. I don’t have confidence Randle will have much value on a mega max, even if he maintains his prior season’s production.

    It might be an easier sell to the fan base if the team is ‘underachieving’ before the trade deadline. If the offers are good I hope Leon takes the calls.

  81. swiftandabundant: We should also get someone who loves playing for our franchise.

    Maybe i’m sentimental, but this part is very important for me. I love when players feel the Knicks as much as we all do. And that goes for RJ too. Unless the right superstar comes calling, let’s keep them because these times are going to be amazing.

  82. Thanks Cyber…
    and if you ask Luka he’ll tell You he’s going for the gold?.

    Hard no on trading Randle . Give the man a chance to earn big and he’ll repay big.

  83. Dink: Does anyone here think the Knicks can be title contenders with Julius Randle making $35 million a year (around 33% of the cap)? I don’t.

    Yeah, I don’t know about the salary structure and numbers, I think Randle could be a #2b in a #2a-#2b situation but not a #1. In other words I’m not convinced we’re on the win curve where last year’s reg season seemed to indicate.

  84. Thinking out loud:

    If you replace AD with Randle on last year’s Lakers, do they win the title? I doubt it.
    If you install him instead of Siakam on the Raptors in 2019, do they still win? Maybe.
    If you replace Green with Randle in the Golden State dynasty, are they winning 3 titles? I’d go with zero.
    If LeBron has Julius instead of Kyrie in 2016, are they beating the Warriors? Maybe, but just because LeBron was out of this world great.

    So if you go with this as the result of the thought experiment he’s a maybe #2, probably a #3.

  85. cybersoze:
    Sad for KYN and Bruno for missing the olympics, but happy for Max/Farfa and Slovene Knick for making it. Maybe one of you, or both, can bring back a medal. Silver or Bronze, because we all know which nation gets the gold. :P

    It wouldn’t be so bad if France or Argentina did well with the help of outstanding point guard play ;-)

  86. cybersoze:
    Sad for KYN and Bruno for missing the olympics, but happy for Max/Farfa and Slovene Knick for making it. Maybe one of you, or both, can bring back a medal. Silver or Bronze, because we all know which nation gets the gold. :P

    Thanks Cyber :-)

    Not counting the gold medal (the US Team is vastly superior as always should be) everything else is a total crapshoot.
    You can win all the games in the first round then lose the first head to head matchup and go home disappointed despite a 3-1 record, so up to 8 teams have a decent chance at silver or bronze (sorry Iran, Japan and Nigeria).

  87. It’s also a shame for joinone that China didn’t make it, but I doubt he thought they had a chance.

  88. For the record — I absolutely do not think the Knicks will trade Randle, just that the potential he would bring must be somewhat tempting. This FO is obviously keen on proving to free agents that they treat their guys right, and Randle and the fans deserve this respect at least for the next year.

    But those who say Randle isn’t a #1 guy are correct. He’s maybe a #2 in the Bam Adebayo mold. And paying him the max could be disastrous (by disastrous, I mean a 1st or 2nd-round playoff out for 3-4 years before we slide back down into the realm of bottom-feeders.)

    So how do you get your legit #1 guy? With Randle already being 26, you have to think via free agency so as to fit his timeline. Top-5 picks are also a way to go, but that seems like a real longshot this year.

    As such, I think the Knicks will consolidate their picks (2 instead of 3) to get the best role players available while also picking through undrafted players to find diamonds in the rough. I think this is the way to go — waiting a year for a better free-agent market, allowing Quick, Obi, and RJ to get a year better, and then wooing the hell out of some stars. They could also trade their picks for another seasoned starter (ideally a Brogdon type), but I don’t think that is as likely to happen.

  89. We can re-evaluate Randle at the end of the season. He’s had one stellar year. I love Randle, but if he struggles then even the extension looks like an albatross.

    Thibs installed the defense in a shortened training camp and had little time to dedicate to offense. Hopefully the offense looks much better this year.

    Also, Randle playing 2nd banana ideally gets him easier looks at the basket rather than getting forced to orchestrate every possession.

  90. These narratives about who’s a 1, 2, etc on a championship team are all rather silly. Before AD teamed up with Lebron he was an overrated star who never got past the second round. Before this season Devon Booker was a stat stuffing one sided player who’d never been to the playoffs.

    There is no reason why last years Randle can’t be the second option on a championship contender but so much of it depends on who that first option is and how they play together.

  91. Am I the only one who is optimistic about Randle’s being a legit #2 option? I think he had to shoulder a little bit too much of the offensive load this year (which he handled admirably, since he was an outlier-good tough shot-maker). I don’t think that kind of offensive production will hold up, but I think if we have a legit #1 option on this team that we run the offense through Randle is going to be in a much better position to get the easy buckets that were typical for him in New Orleans and LA. Taking a 25/10/6 guy and letting him shoot less contested twos and more shots at the rim will make up for whatever small to medium size losses you get from his reduced assists due to handling the ball less (and I’m sure he’ll still get plenty on rolls, pops, and in transition). I really think if there’s any return to form re: at the rim attempts while keeping his 3pt% for Randle that his TS could spike into the 60s, and a guy who is doing that is definitely a legit #2 on a good team.

  92. Agreed Silky not worried too much wether Randle can be a #2 on a contender he was pretty good this season with no clear second option and poor PG play.

    Only thing is finding that 1st option(Beal, Lavine?) and hopefully RJ can grow into that third option role.

  93. I’m in the don’t trade Randle camp mostly because I really really enjoyed this year and he is the biggest reason why. At the same time I don’t think anyone should be untouchable given the team’s talent base. But what I don’t fully understand is why his value as a trade asset is so great now given his contract situation. Admittedly it is at an all-time high given the leap he made, but a team giving up assets for him would have to be comfortable that he would resign with them (in all likelihood for the max) after this year as he most certainly will decline an immediate extension. He is on record as saying he wants to retire as a Knick. Perhaps if he is traded he may rethink that sentiment but maybe not.

  94. I believe RJ will be a superstar soon. Maybe it’s insanity, but he’s really young and has really progressed in his first two seasons. No. RJ is untouchable because of his potential and his age,

  95. You consider all options, but put me in the camp of people who think Randle is being undersold a bit here.

    If you buy Randle’s production from last season, he’s a top 20-25 player (I don’t want to get yelled at for citation to AIO metrics even though I always acknowledge their limitations up front but he was 20th in something that rhymes with Sox Fuss Minus). I think some people are underrating how hard it is to get one of those dudes in your building. It’s easier than getting a top 5-10 guy, sure, but you are highly unlikely to do it with the 7th and 14th picks or whatever. In fact, there’s barely any realistic package of picks you can put together that would make getting a player in that range more than a ~20% proposition.

    As for buying the production, even if you think he’ll regress from 3 and the midrange, he left so much low-hanging fruit on the table from around the basket just compared to what he has literally already done in the past that unless the shooting was a total mirage I don’t think he’ll regress too badly overall. Obviously, it’s important to get him some teammates who can help him get those easier looks.

    That’s not to say there are no potential downsides to maxing him next offseason or that we shouldn’t even entertain offers, but the best path for us is pairing Randle with someone better than him. That’s perfectly doable between now and when we have to decide on his next contract.

  96. I voted No in the poll, but after thinking about it some more, would change that to Yes. Of course, actually doing a trade would depend on all the moving parts. Man, it would be nice to see Lillard on the Knicks, but always beware trading for a guy in his 30s unless you really believe he is the final big piece.

    Yeah, I can’t see the Knicks trading Randle for picks, unless they really covet someone in the top 3 and can parlay three or four first rounders to move that far up. But that seems like a “take one big step back to (hopefully) later take two big steps forward” type strategy that probably wouldn’t interest Rose, following a winning #4 seed season.

  97. Mike Kurylo: After getting the site back online and the results of this poll, I was seriously considering it.

    I forgot to tell you that i’m a software developer, so when you need some help, please let me know. If i can, i’ll definitely help. You have my email on the database, so it’s easy to contact me.
    And thank you very much for all the good work in building this amazing community. :)

  98. The Randle ceiling question is all about whether or not you believe Julius Randle can get a bucket in high leverage situations. Milwaukee has a 1-2-3 scoring punch of Giannis, Middleton, and Jrue Holiday and I’m not sure Julius Randle is better at getting his own shot than any of those guys. In the regular season, yeah he’s no problem as a 2nd option and you’ll definitely win a lot of games if 2021 Julius Randle is your 2nd best player. You have to ask yourself a few questions with Julius though:

    – Is he still comfortable if you take the ball out of his hands?
    – Is the shooting real?
    – Can you get him more touches as a P&R finisher?

    If the answer to all of these questions is yes, you’d have successfully found a Melo-STAT hybrid, and that’s absolutely a top 15 player in the NBA year over year. The thing I love most about Giannis is beyond the fun stuff that sells tickets, when it comes down to it he does power forward things better than most power forwards on the planet. If we can merge the shot creator with the 250 pound power forward tank stuff, you can build with that. But if Julius Randle needs the ball in his hands and is more of the 6th man type of player he’s been in the 6 seasons prior to this season, we are in trouble.

  99. Jesus Christ, I’m so sick of hardliners here. You are all the same people who were dying to attach a sweetener to Randle to get him the hell out of here last year!

    Maybe leave open the *possibility* that Randle will regress (like he did in the playoffs) when it’s not a condensed, shortened year? Or the *possibility* that a top-10 pick this year could become a star? These are not crazy ideas. Consider these wise words of Paulie Walnuts’: “Nobody knows what the future holds, my friend.”

    Edit: yes, thank you, RJ stan account. Those are important considerations.

  100. AND I LIKE RANDLE! I’d love for us to keep him and for him to do well here.

  101. Maybe leave open the *possibility* that Randle will regress (like he did in the playoffs) when it’s not a condensed, shortened year? Or the *possibility* that a top-10 pick this year could become a star? These are not crazy ideas. Consider these wise words of Paulie Walnuts’: “Nobody knows what the future holds, my friend.”

    Is anyone besides swift taking a hard line on this….? The gist of my post was “obviously you consider trading Randle but keep in mind it won’t be easy to get a similarly good player.”

    Yes, Randle could regress. Yes, a top-10 pick could be better than him. These are all matters of probability though and there are good reasons to think Randle could stay within a reasonable range of his 2020-2021 production, and even better reasons to think a top-10 pick won’t ever be within that range.

  102. Too many people here are still jaded by Randle’s 1st season with the Knicks. He was a very good player the 2 seasons prior to signing with the Knicks, it’s the reason his contract was actually considered a very good signing by the Knicks at the time. His bad 1st season here is really the outlier in his past 4 seasons not this past season.

    Now giving him a max contract next summer is debatable but if he’s willing to sign an extension this summer it would be a steal and an absolute no brainer for the Knicks.

  103. Plus, even though Randle had a stinker of an ending to his season, I’m reasonably confident that it’s lit a fire underneath him and that he’s already working like a maniac to improve his game so it doesn’t happen again.

  104. Not aimed at you tnfh,

    No one is questioning Randle’s overall effectiveness. Really the question is over whether Randle is worth a max offer or not. There’s no doubt he’s a very good player, and trading him is only reasonable in the context of maxing him.

    If he takes an extension, problem solved! But we all watched him fail to close out games over and over this year. We need room for a legit max player next to Randle, and even that core will need additional help.

  105. Doug Chu:
    Plus, even though Randle had a stinker of an ending to his season, I’m reasonably confident that it’s lit a fire underneath him and that he’s already working like a maniac to improve his game so it doesn’t happen again.

    I really don’t want Randle to “expand” his game, though, or at least that shouldn’t be the priority. Randle’s off-ball game, provided we land a point guard who can point guard, is really where I want to see Randle expand his game. Because he’s a threat to beat you off the dribble, I want to see him use his current skill level to boost his efficient shot diet. Dunk on people. Shoot open 20 footers off the catch the way KG used to when he was playing.

    I think the Knicks would be so much better on offense if two things happened:

    Julius Randle was used more as a finisher (catch and shoot AND as a roll man).
    They made the damn hit-ahead pass to RJ Barrett when he’s consistently beating everybody down the floor.

    Let’s just get more easy baskets. If that means trading for Jalen Brunson and signing Lonzo Ball to a semi reasonable contract, I’m okay with that. We don’t need a star player as much as we need an improved offensive approach. It may be easier to get significant upgrades than to sell out for star upgrades.

  106. I don’t have the data on hand, but I think it’s fair to say Randle plays a very different game now than he did in his 2 years before the Knicks.

    Previously he was the roll man & now he’s the creator. I don’t take those years as indicative of his future performance. Randle was also helped by playing with Cs who could space the floor (Lopez & AD), allowing Randle to function as the roll man without clogging the lane. Mitch isn’t that player. So we need to move on from Mitch, consider Randle’s pre-NYK years meaningless, or play Randle at C which creates defensive problems.

    All the above to say Randle as a shooter struggling to get to the basket may be the new Randle. If so, we should worry about how much of an outlier his midrange & 3pt shooting numbers are. Regression in Randle’s shooting percentage without a counterbalance elsewhere drops a slightly below average efficiency scorer to a very below average efficiency scorer.

    We know little about Randle & waiting until next year to sign him is rational for both sides. If Randle plays worse than this year, there’s a lot of middle ground between max deal & letting him walk.

  107. I think it’s fairly likely Randle 3p% is going to regress a bit. He made too big a leap to assume it’s all sustainable. Statistically he may also regress in term of assists. If we manage to add a solid PG that can score a bit, Randle will handle the ball less often. So he’s likely to get fewer assists. That won’t mean a much in terms of his overall value, but it will be a change the numbers. You have to assume if he’s handling the ball less his TOs will also decline and you also hope that he’ll be forced to take fewer really tough shots. So his efficiency (other than 3s) can rise a bit.

  108. I don’t know how anyone can look at Randle’s stats in year 1 and think it had anything to do with his ability as an NBA player. He was being asked to be #1 option on a terrible team, with no PG, with absolutely no spacing, bad coaching, and having to do things he wasn’t used to doing. That year was the clearest example of a toss you are ever going to see in basketball. Just draw a line through it and pretend it didn’t happen. The only way it could have been worse was if he was also recovering from surgery and playing at less than 100% for a lot of the season.

  109. Last point on Randle.

    If we get a legitimate #1 option, Randle will have a lot easier time creating easy shots for himself because they won’t be be able to double team him as often when he’s the 2nd option. They’ll be too worried about stopping our #1 option. If we can’t land a #1 option this off season (which could be likely), even if we come away with a solid PG that can score a bit Randle will get some easier shots because of the better spacing and better player and ball movement. The thing that killed us in the playoffs is that our #1 option is really a #2 option and our #2 option (RJ) was still barely #3 option (though he’s improving rapidly). Once we add the #1 scorer and PG we need and RJ develops further, some of these problems we had with Randle will disappear.

  110. I’m only hardline in the sense that I want to keep things going and build on what we did not reset or tear it down int the name of asset collection. Randle was second team all NBA and is 26. Obviously if he doesn’t take the extension then trading him becomes a bigger possibility. But he was badass this year. Best knick single season since peak Melo and arguably better than that even bc of defense and assists. Plus Randle is built like a fucking tank. RJ is only 20. IQ is 21. OBI is young, Mitch too.

    Randle could be better be t year too because OBI will be able to play more minutes in the back up role.

    We could easily use our cap space on either Ball if we want to go youth or Lowry/Conley if f we want to go experience. Use the rest to bring back as much of the vets as feasible and make our picks.

    Next season we could start:

    Ball/Lowry/Conley
    RJ
    Bullock
    Randle
    Mitch

    With a bench of Rose, IQ, 1st round pick, OBI and Noel. Third string Villadoza, 1st round pick, Knox, Taj.

    We could go this route, keep all of our future picks and depending on how long we sign the PG and returning Vets, have cap space in a season or two again for a star.

  111. @ess-dog: I agree with you that Randle is a risk at next year’s max, but except a surefire all-nba player i guess all max contracts are, right? There’s plenty of time to know (a little) better what to do. We’ll have the trade deadline, then in the offseason we can do a sign and trade, but first we can offer less than the max because we can offer 5 years and the others don’t. So let’s say the Knicks offer 5/160M, the others can only offer 4/150M. What will he make in 2026-27? 20M? He’ll be losing only 10M and if he has some bad luck that money is guaranteed, whereas if he leaves who knows if he’ll stay healthy and/or at a very good level by then.
    We have to keep building the team, with a good PG as the most important goal for the offseason. Then let’s see what Julius and RJ can do with a good PG around them during the season.

  112. the best path for us is pairing Randle with someone better than him. That’s perfectly doable between now and when we have to decide on his next contract.

    See, I think that’s actually pretty hard to do, which is why I’d sell if he turns down the extension.

    But keep in mind when I say sell, I’m treating him like Paul George and Jrue Holliday, i.e. a tier 2 star who helps a team (Portland) keep their tier 1 star. The value of a guy like that is immense. I truly believe a deal with Portland would net us three unprotected firsts & multiple pick swaps (all from 2023 and beyond, when Lillard is declining/retired) and some combination of Covington, Jurkic, and Collins. That’s a franchise-altering trade.

    People talking about trading him for the 7 and the 14 are definitely underselling him.

  113. Next season we could start:

    Ball/Lowry/Conley
    RJ
    Bullock
    Randle
    Mitch

    With a bench of Rose, IQ, 1st round pick, OBI and Noel. Third string Villadoza, 1st round pick, Knox, Taj.

    We could go this route, keep all of our future picks and depending on how long we sign the PG and returning Vets, have cap space in a season or two again for a star.

    That’s the thing, though, swifty. You would not have cap space ever again. Lonzo Ball would be your move. Then when you pay Randle & RJ, that’s your team. You’re all in on Randle, RJ, Ball.

  114. Hubert: That’s the thing, though, swifty. You would not have cap space ever again. Lonzo Ball would be your move. Then when you pay Randle & RJ,that’s your team. You’re all in on Randle, RJ, Ball.

    If, and this is a big if, you’re signing guys to good contracts there’s no way you’re locked into that team. You can always find 3rd teams willing to pick up the Andre Iguodalas and Caris LeVerts of the world in trades.

  115. Sure but he’s talking about Ball, Randle, and Barrett on max contracts. You’re locked into those guys the minute the ink dries on the contracts.

  116. I really don’t understand the reasons we’re having so much discussion about trading Randle. It’s like “maybe the salary sky will fall in” if we sign him to a large contract. Good teams often have overpaid players; it’s just the way the NBA pay system works. Some players get better after they get a big contract and some get worse. It’s not totally predictable. So many end up overpaid. We are spoiled by having a good team last season that was actually below the salary floor. That is really unusual. Would you really rather have a team where all the players were on bargain contracts, but it wasn’t good and was basically hoping it’s draft picks would develop or would you rather have a team that’s fun to watch, isn’t terrible, but some players are a little overpaid? You do this by getting players who are good and keeping them for a while.

  117. See, I think that’s actually pretty hard to do, which is why I’d sell if he turns down the extension.

    Don’t get me wrong, it’ll be very hard to do. The fact of the matter is there’s no road to contention that isn’t hard and doesn’t involve luck, though, and again it all comes down to probabilities.

    Let’s say we bank on being able to sign LaVine, Beal, or someone else/a combination of players that could get us within range of contention by 2022 (prior to signing Randle’s max and re-signing Mitch) without having to make a trade. That’s obviously a very fraught path because who the hell knows if it’ll happen, but is it more fraught than trading Randle and starting from scratch with a Barrett extension one season away?

    It’s a reasonable debate to be sure. I think I fall rather slightly on the “keep Randle, nail your draft picks, and make great use of your cap space prior to signing Randle’s max” side of things when it comes to our most likely path to contention.

  118. Hubert:
    Sure but he’s talking about Ball, Randle, and Barrett on max contracts. You’re locked into those guys the minute the ink dries on the contracts.

    Fair enough. I think RJ Barrett will be worth his max extension if he signs one, but I’m the RJ Barrett Stan Account so that’s obvious.

    ——

    Knick fan not in NJ: I really don’t understand the reasons we’re having so much discussion about trading Randle.

    Because it’s the off-season, bro. Why else?

    But in all honesty, for me it’s all about the fear of locking in a $25M AAV guy in at $35M+ AAV a summer before Nikola Jokic can become a free agent that makes me nervous. I know that’s the pipe dream that nobody believes will happen, but star trades happen every year, B. I don’t want to give Julius Randle the 2022 version of the DeMar DeRozan contract so long as we can avoid it, and furthermore I have questions about whether or not Julius Randle can actually defer to another player. He’s a ball dominant player who slows the game down by taking the ball up court and relies a lot on his handle. I’m going to look the numbers up after this comment to see if my suspicions are confirmed, but I feel like everything I know about Julius Randle has to do with his being a speed/power mismatch for most front court players and his ability to leverage that off the dribble. It’s kinda why he’s mostly been a successful 6th man in his career aside from this season. There are real questions about Julius Randle that people seem to be sweeping under the rug.

  119. …furthermore I have questions about whether or not Julius Randle can actually defer to another player. He’s a ball dominant player who slows the game down by taking the ball up court and relies a lot on his handle.

    I mean yeah it’s not the most optimal thing to have him do. I’m willing to bet that was moreso a function of the necessity to have some best form of functional offense last season, given that our starting PG was Payton.

  120. I think I fall rather slightly on the “keep Randle, nail your draft picks, and make great use of your cap space prior to signing Randle’s max” side of things when it comes to our most likely path to contention.

    Cosign.
    My biggest reasons are that by the trade deadline next season, we’ll have a good idea of A. How the new starting PG will transform the offense and Randle’s use in it, B. Randle approximating his 2020-21 numbers or i dunno… improving, and C. The improvements of RJ, IQ and Obi.

    Add two functional rookies to that mix, and simmer.

  121. i don’t know who matt sullivan is… but some of these things he’s saying about kd… kyrie.,.. and the nets… is pretty nuclear….

    one thing the knicks get connected in all this with is the summer of 2019….. where mills and perry are supposedly trying to coax kd’s dad during the nba finals… and sullivan basically said kd had already made up his mind about brooklyn with kyrie… probably with the help of some expense accounts….

    i would bet that kawhi’s signing was under similar circumstances also as there were big rumors with uncle dennis asking for under the table stuff…

    anyway… this could have big implications if this all checks out…

  122. Yeah I’m not totally sold on signing Ball either but I can see the justification behind it bc of his age and potential to still get better. You sign Ball and you’re basically adding him to the youth core to grow together. Which is very appealing.

    But I would also totally be into say a big two year to Lowry or Conley for example, bring back Rose and then you develop Villadoza and a draft pick future PG at some point. Doing that gives you a shot to go after another big name in a few years instead of totally locking into a RJ, Randle, Ball plus whoever core.

    I mean this could be quite nice

    Lowry or Conley/Rose/Villadoza
    RJ/IQ/draft pick
    Bullock/draft pick/2nd round pick
    Randle/OBI/Knox
    Mitch/Pelle/Taj

    Trying to be realistic with who all we can bring back and not include Noel but if it’s possible, awesome, or find another cheap big to replace him for Mitch insurance.

    Lowry and Rose, for example, would provide great PG production with Villadoza also getting some minutes to keep those guys fresh.

  123. If Randle says no to the extension this year and holds out for the max, I don’t really care much about what he did this year in terms of maxing him in 2022. It would all be based on how he plays next year.

    As to trading him this offseason, I agree that he shouldn’t be dumped for draft picks, and I doubt it would even be considered. If the right offer came along, I would expect that Rose would listen. That’s what GMs should do. Randle is really good, but he’s not untouchable. If you think you can improve the team by trading him for the right package, sure, go for it, but you better be right if you do.

    I don’t think he’s going anywhere. But there’s nothing wrong with discussing whether he should be traded and for how much, given his contract situation and the team’s current position.

  124. i would guess if we add lowry or conley that would pretty much mean rose wouldn’t be back…

    it’s weird to think that this is the first year in forever where the expectation during the off-season is that we’ll actually address the starting point guard (and maybe also future point guard) position for the upcoming season…crazy times in knick fan land…

  125. #Sad for KYN and Bruno for missing the olympics, #

    Thanks man
    We had a 3rdQ porn spanking by Satoranskies so we were eliminated fairly but at least we tried hard even with many absences

    Julius Trade or Not deserves a summer proper Thread!

  126. Ok..a really weird thought just hit me. Given the fact that we can run our offense through Julius and RJ, I actually wouldn’t mind Sexton as a fallback option at the 1. Especially if he can continue to shoot like he has on a little less volume. But he’d be the backup plan to the backup plan because I believe the team wants Quickley to earn that role in year 2.

  127. Geo,

    I’m curious why you think Lowry or Conley means no D Rose. Would that also apply to Ball.

    Rose took over from Elf in the playoffs but he is not meant to be a starter at this point in his career and he is well aware of that. I actually think Lowry/Conley and Rose could be great because also with Lowry/Conley you’d want to keep an eye on minutes too. So one of them could start but D Rose could still get a healthy 25 minutes a night and Villadoza would get minutes too because both our starter and back up are north of 30.

    Do you think its just a cap issue thing? That they won’t want to spend all of tehir cap on the PG spot?

    I love the idea of a Lowry/Rose/Villadoza PG rotation. Lowry/Rose can put pressure on the defense all game. You could play them together to close games sometimes. It would be sweet. Conley would work too.

  128. Raise your hand if you want to pay Julius Randle $25-$35 million per year to be a second option.

  129. E, all merc’d out:
    Raise your hand if you want to pay Julius Randle $25-$35 million per year to be a second option.

    I’d pay him 25 mil to be a 2nd option..anything beyond that- he better take another leap like he did this past season

  130. There’s far more reason to write off the Covid year than there is to write off the Fizdale year.

  131. E, I can tell the holiday has refreshed you and you are your usual cheery self.

  132. Don’t you pretty much have to pay your second option the max? That seems to be what every other team has to do that’s contending.

  133. I can’t believe some people want to trade Randle to accumulate more draft assets.

    The goal should NOT be to build a team by getting worse now for some theoretical very long term better future that may never come to pass. You only do that AFTER you’ve already made your serious run with an older team and either won a championship or know your window is closed. The Knicks have a young team, a lot of upside, a lot potential to trade picks for players or to move up, they can draft more youth, and they have a lot of cap space. That’s a team that should be moving forward not backward. Randle is a very good player. He could be #2 or at worst a 2b on a championship team of we had the #1. You keep him even if you have to overpay slightly unless he’s part of deal that makes you BETTER in 2022, not 2027. Long term thinking is obviously critical, but at a certain point it becomes very foolish when there are no guarantees about that distant future either. Accumulating assets is always fine, but going backwards now would be ridiculous.

  134. E, all merc’d out:
    Raise your hand if you want to pay Julius Randle $25-$35 million per year to be a second option.

    I want to pay him minimum wage with no bonuses, but in the real world you have to pay players their market value. Sometimes you even have to pay a small premium to attract or keep a player or you will never build a championship team. If you don’t, every time you have a good player that wants an extension you’ll have to trade him. We’ll be rebuilding until you guys are on social security also. lol

  135. I’m curious why you think Lowry or Conley means no D Rose. Would that also apply to Ball.

    howdy swift…a lot of rose’s value came from the fact he was finishing games for us, if we have a legit starting veteran point guard whom can finish games, no reason to have another vet point guard backing them up…

    if we pick up ball or some other youngish option at point, good chance rose will be back in the backup, sometimes finishing role…

  136. Maybe Randle at the max wouldn’t be “catastrophic,” but fortunately, we have another year to gauge his talent before it becomes an issue. Maybe his value will tank once he’s on the floor with a real PG? Maybe he’ll become even better? Who knows.

    It will be interesting to see how they build with their cap space, though. This past year they went with shorter deals for older vets, but that doesn’t mean they’ll do that again this year. Maybe they will take risks on younger players like Oubre, hoping they can be coached up.

    They might even max out their cap instead of waiting for 2022 free agency with the thought that they’d rather have signed pieces ready for when a star demands a trade. Having guys like Ball and Oubre on manageable deals (if that’s possible) could benefit the team now and in a potential trade. When guys are 23-25, you don’t really get “locked into” those contracts unless they totally tank their value.

    I don’t love Oubre, but that rumor is out there and maybe our staff can work with him? I wouldn’t mind a team of:

    Ball
    Oubre
    RJ
    Randle
    Mitch

    with a bench of:

    Rose
    Quickley
    Kispert/Murphy
    Obi
    Queta

    Plus Taj, Vildoza, and a few others.

  137. Raise your hand if you want to pay Julius Randle $25-$35 million per year to be a second option.

    I mean, yeah, this is pretty much the going rate for bona fide second options in the NBA.

    It’s definitely a problem to give it to them if you don’t have your first option already in tow. That’s why we should spend every second between now and the signing of Randle’s next contract, whether it’s with us or someone else, trying to get a first option.

    If we can sign LaVine, Beal, or one of the more pie-in-the-sky possibilities, I say sign Randle to the best deal you can and see what you can do. If we make good draft picks AND spend the rest of our cap space wisely, you have to feel good about a LaVine/Randle/Barrett/IQ/Mitch/Toppin/Vildoza/draft picks/other free agents core. It’s not gonna be the prohibitive favorite or anything, but in a league without a Warriors-esque juggernaut its chances justify going for it.

    The question is what to do if we can’t bring in someone like that by the time we have to make a decision about Randle. In that case, the best option would probably be to sign-and-trade him. The return would be less than it would be right now in all likelihood, but that’s a risk we should be willing to take.

  138. noble,

    I think you make a very good point. Right now in the NBA there is not a dynasty team. The Nets, if healthy, should be the best team in the NBA but its a big if that those 3 dudes are all gonna be healthy at any given time.

    Philly – still can’t get over the Simmons/Embiid not being ideal pairing hump.
    Suns – got about as lucky as you can get in this playoff run facing teams injured plus CP3 is 36. Good young team but if CP3 declines (which will happen at some point) are they still a title favorites?
    Utah – great regular season team
    Bucks – honestly probably the best team on paper the next few years.
    Dallas – has Doncic but no supporting cast really.
    Clippers – again, great duo but health will always be an issue.
    Lakers – Lebron is GOAT but this ain’t Space Jam 2 – father time is catching up.
    Denver – obviously good if Murray is healthy but not elite.
    Warriors- most likely if Klay comes back to have a renaissance year but it won’t be another 3 or 4 years of dominance.

    Now is honestly a pretty good time to go in on RJ and Randle and build from there because the league is pretty wide open right now. Of course, all it takes is one move from a team to create a dynasty. But there is not a clear #1 team in the league right now.

  139. Other than bold/ital the internet is kind of bad for this, and I’m not a fan of the bracketing asterisks, but the stress in my question isn’t on “second option,” it’s far more on “Julius Randle.”

    Through some combination of his wishes, team needs, his playing style, and possibly other factors, Julius’s previous experience as a second option hasn’t gone well. He didn’t last as a second option in LA, he didn’t last as a second option in NO, nothing about his game heretofore in NYC has given any indication that he wants to be a second option or that the team would function well with him in that role. That’s the problem. Stress on “that’s.”

    Julius just has a very niche game. Extremely niche. That’s been the issue from the get-go, that’s why he was available so cheaply a couple summers back. It’s very hard to win with niche guys playing first fiddle. JK’s trying hard, but Randle really hasn’t “developed into a stretch 4.” He doesn’t stretch the floor that much and he doesn’t react well to any kind of shading by off-ball defenders toward spots where he likes to go. If you need “stretchy,” there are far better options and if you need ball handling and drive-and-kick, there are far better options. You need the things he brings to the table, to be sure, but you don’t need him to bring them to the table.

  140. Essentially, in their Playdoh-flinging desperation, Pills bumblefucked into Randle and now he’s outperformed expectations a bit in year 2 — but he’s still the result of bumblefuckery.

  141. JK’s trying hard, but Randle really hasn’t “developed into a stretch 4.”

    Well he did hit 41% of the 389 3PA he took

  142. Happy and bemused that this offseason seems to have more unanswerable questions than any other offseason in memory. Previously the argument centered around, “Will we suck next year, or suck BAD?” This year, we have:

    Are we a good team now or a mediocre team?
    What the hell happened with Randle?
    Will RJ and Quick make significant advances?
    What did we just see with Obi there at the end?
    What’s up with Mitch?
    We had a bunch of superbly overachieving role players — what do we do with them?
    Will Vildoza be any good, or is he just a third-stringer?
    And of course, is Thibs a Good Witch or a Bad Witch?

    I’m sure there are others, but that’s enough to make anyone’s head explode, and make any particular hypothesis about what the team should do tough to argue for or against.

  143. Noble, you are my nominee for The Resilience Award of this thread. ;)
    And i’m 100% with you on how to handle Randle’s extension/max/trade.

  144. I don’t see how being a great 3pt shooter doesn’t mean you’re a floor stretcher, but I think Randle has value as a secondary passer, rebounder, and good 3pt shooter. Should he be running the break? Ideally, no. But he does a lot of things well.

    Tnfh makes a good point about signing a 1st option before Randle’s contract is up, but in today’s league, forced trades are a major player mover (at least until they try to shut that shit down). It’s not unlikely that a star will target NYC via trade in the near future, which is why we need to keep collecting assets through the draft and signings.

  145. Give me a break. Randle doesn’t have a niche game. He’s a modern NBA power forward full stop and now one of the best ones in the league.

    He shoots 3’s above 40 percent. He rebounds, dishes out assists and plays defense. There is nothing niche about his game. That’s honestly one of the dumbest comments you’ve ever made.

  146. i guess making up fake controversies about julius randle yelling at scott perry didn’t work and now we’re calling him niche now…

    this is like the frank ntilikina of trolling….

  147. I think Julius would play phenomenal as the roll man with a great point guard that can penetrate. Does anyone else see that possibility? I feel like that would be a very natural role for him to move to as a second guy. He’d get his points and wouldn’t have to do much of the whirling dervish type stuff.

  148. this is like the frank ntilikina of trolling….

    yeah, kind of weak bait, E’s certainly no bob neptune…which may be a good thing…

  149. Giannis Antetokounmpo Upgraded To Questionable For Game 1

    Of course, only the Bucks medical team has the data for this, but i wouldn’t force it. I think in the long run it’s better that he sits the two Phoenix games, to then come back really healthy, instead of forcing it, having maybe less than optimal performance or even causing him to aggravate the injury.

    I have the Suns in 6. What do you guys have?

  150. I think Julius would play phenomenal as the roll man with a great point guard that can penetrate. Does anyone else see that possibility?

    This was basically randle in 2019 with the pelicans…. pace and space with heavy pnr and he flourished efficiency wise which was why we signed him… he was limited from a perimeter perspective but he answered some questions about that last year….

    he can get back to that but we just don’t have the offense or personnel to get back to that.. we’re much slower pace and we need a pg to run the pnr and actually pass to the roll man… we didn’t involve much randle in the pnr either because we had a center clogging the lane… randle played a bunch of center for the pelicans which helped in that regard….

    in any case.. there’s a lot of pick and pop / catch and shoot opportunities we can involve randle in that will get him those midrange shots in much more efficient packages than the stepback / fades he’s running… and we just haven’t been running it at all in favor of iso’s or one pass drives by our pgs… hopefully that changes…

  151. I have the Suns in 6. What do you guys have?

    suns probably take it easy… it’s either 5 or 6… cp3 eats up drop coverages and so this is a much tougher defensive matchup for the bucks than trae… or just about anyone they’ve faced…. if giannis is fully healthy this could go 7 but it’s tough for them overall to keep up unless middleton and holiday catches fire…

  152. to be honest, the whole cp3 finals storyline is sort of making me wanna root for the bucks…

  153. All that matters is what Hubert thinks.

    I will root for Giannis I think if he is healthy and Chris Paul if not.

  154. ESPN removed Rachel Nichols from her role as the sideline reporter for the NBA Finals after the New York Times published an audio recording of Nichols making disparaging comments about colleague Maria Taylor.

    haha, that’s now two female sports anchors that maria taylor has slain…michelle beadle who???

  155. I’m rooting for Hubert

    when it invovles collecting 35k from christopher moltisanti’s evil step twin – what exactly does that mean???

  156. hubie, if you need to skip town for any reason – i got a couch you can crash on…

  157. Kemba Walker to the Lakers is a fascinating move, if it also corresponds with Schroeder leaving the team. They definitely needed a creator/shotmaker like Walker, but at the same time, losing Schroeder and Kuzma, is it enough of an upgrade? It also continues to mold the team around some injury-prone dudes.

  158. Perhaps they still plan on retaining Schroeder, though. I think that makes a lot more sense, as a Walker/Schroeder back court would be strong.

  159. Just read that Greek Freak is playing
    bucks will crash the suns
    Sorry Hubie

  160. I’ll try watching Nba Finals along Copa America semiFinals
    Let’s see how it’ll go

  161. Narrative question only — if the Suns win the title, does Chris Paul become the greatest point guard ever?

    (If Magic is a point forward…)

  162. Bobby Marks tweeted something interesting:

    What MIL and PHX sent out to acquire Jrue Holiday and Chris Paul:

    – E. Bledsoe
    – G. Hill
    – R. Rubio
    – K. Oubre Jr.
    – T. Jerome
    – J. Lecque
    – 2020 first (MIL)
    – 2022 first (PHX)
    – 2024 right to swap (MIL)
    – 2025 first (MIL)
    – 2026 right to swap (MIL)
    – 2027 first (MIL)

    I’ll leave it out here as my first exhibit about why the Knicks need to back up the truck for a superstar point guard. There is no amount of money that is not worth it.

  163. hopefully it “only” costs us cash…

    i don’t know who will win, or how many games the series will go – but, i am rooting for the bucks…

  164. Seeing as how I didn’t think Giannis was touching a basketball court for at least 12 months I’d say he looks pretty damn good

  165. Agree. He really did enlist the Olympian gods.

    JVG said it and I have to agree. I can’t believe how well Lopez has played defense in these playoffs. He was TERRIBLE when he was in BK.

  166. What happened with Walker?

    The Lakers are apparently close to a deal for Walker for Kuzma and their first round pick this year.

  167. I have the Suns in 6. What do you guys have?

    I didn’t put any money on the Bucks but I hedged my bets a bit by putting sizable wagers on Giannis to win MVP at 300 and Middleton at 600. So root for Brooks Lopez to dominate the NBA Finals if you hate me.

  168. Are fans so bored during Finals games that they need generic trap beats to be blasted over the PA during actual game time? That’s the kind of shit you’d expect from a Thunder game in late April.

  169. Giannis to win MVP at 300 and Middleton at 600.

    When did this site ban the plus sign?

  170. ***When did this site ban the plus sign?***

    Back in May when positive thinking started to run amuck.

  171. The plus sign is like the alligator loki of everyone who ever got pruned by the KBA. (Bob Neptune = Classic Loki, Ted Nelson = Boastful Loki, Reub = Kid Loki.)

  172. Who the fuck watches The Bachelorette and can I help them find a hobby

    Also, I know PHX is 19-19 from the line (despite not having a single player who’s “been there” before) but how are they up this much against a Bucks team shooting 45% from deep and not committing a ton of turnovers?

  173. Yeah, I have the Suns in 6. CP3 on a mission and he’s got that scoring side-kick, Booker.

  174. Checked out at halftime for Copa America. Incredible game of football.

    Hubert, off to a good start!!! Love having a bet to sweat.

  175. ephus:
    I would spend the $$$ for Chris Paul.3 years/$100m. If that would get the job done, do it.

    Earlier today I was thinking 3/75 to pair him with Julius for the epic pick and roll combo, but I could be convinced for the $100 if we could even do that.

  176. I imagine 3/$100 is what Phoenix is ready to pay if need be, and if anyone else offered that, they would go to the fourth year that other teams can’t offer.

  177. payne, johson, bridges, ayton, booker, monty – lots of reasons for cp3 to stay put, similar for conley…lowry, different story…

  178. Thanks Brian, that’s an interesting trade. I guess it depends on how much Kemba has left in the tank to tell if it’s a good deal for the Lakers or not.

  179. ***I would spend the $$$ for Chris Paul. 3 years/$100m. If that would get the job done, do it.***

    Based on what? A mere 42,000 minute sample? Why the rush to judgement?

  180. Bucks are clearly Taller and Stronger that the Suns who are faster than them.
    They Need better D and Paint Dominance.
    Brook Lopez should camp in the paint and make Ayton cry.

  181. Injuries aside this have been the funniest playoffs in a long time.

    No clear cut favorites, no sense of inevitability, lot of surprises, big comebacks, a handful of young stars raising their stock, masterful performances…

    Very, very entertaining.

  182. Why would CP3 leave the Suns? For the money? I sincerely doubt it. He will not have the same impact in NY, his wife wants to be out west, and it would be better for his legacy if he stays there. PHX is the perfect place for him right now. He’s not going anywhere.

  183. The only way CP3-to-NY makes any sense is if winning the ring makes him feel like the only way to enhance his already great legacy is to bring winning back to this historical joke of a franchise. But I seriously doubt it.

  184. Missed last night’s game… too much sleep to recover! :P
    Looks like it was a very good game, and CP3 made it clear he wants a ring. Now the ball is on Giannis’ side.
    Agree with Max that “this have been the funniest playoffs in a long time“.

  185. According to former Nets executive and ESPN cap guru Bobby Marks, the Suns can offer Paul a four-year deal while the Knicks can’t go past three years because of an obscure “over-38’’ bylaw in the collective bargaining agreement.

    Thank God for this rule. It’d be very Knicksy to give a 4 year contract (33M AAV) to a 36yo player.

  186. I am confused as to how the Lakers make a move for Kemba Walker. Walker is making like $35MM or more this year, and Kyle Kuzma…isn’t.

    The only way you could see it is a S&T with Schroder, but Schroder would have to agree to go to OKC, which is supertanking – I do not imagine why he would want that, unless it is a 3-team? But then that would hard cap the Lakers at about $140MM (presumed tax = around $136MM and apron is 4MM above that I think). With Kemba+LBJ+AD+KCP they’d be at about $125MM already. So they need to fill out 8 roster spots for $140MM, and one of those spots is Montrezl Harrell who has a player option for about $10MM. That takes out anything but minimum players, pretty much.

    Hard to see.

  187. Alan:
    The only way CP3-to-NY makes any sense is if winning the ring makes him feel like the only way to enhance his already great legacy is to bring winning back to this historical joke of a franchise. But I seriously doubt it.

    Yeah, it seems like this is more of the typical Knicks fan pipe dream than anything crossing CP3’s mind. He finally has a home where he can bask in the twilight of his immortal career. Why would he mess with that?

  188. by the way I am fully on board with 2 years up to $60MM for Kyle Lowry.
    So much better to do that than give up everything for Lillard, who surely is better than Lowry but is unlikely to enable a real championship run since you’d have to give up everything to get him.

    Real question is whether Philly can figure out a S&T that makes sense for Toronto. Have to imagine Lowry would rather play for his hometown 76ers even if he loves him some Thibs.

    Then draft two of Duarte and Tre Mann, bring back Rose, one of Burks/Bullock, and I think we have something interesting.

    Looking at Dame vs. Lowry (and presuming Lowry costs 2 years $60MM).

    Dame will make 50% more than Lowry over the next two seasons — basically $45MM/year.

    So you’re giving up $15MM/year in cap space + probably like 3 picks + 2-3 swaps + Barrett + Toppin + Quickley. And that’s not even counting the $105MM (!) Dame is making in his ages 33 and 34 seasons.

    If it were just the dollars, I think it’d be fine to make the trade – it’s just you’d be giving away too many other assets.

  189. The Suns are a high-IQ, high-energy team. CP3 is finally on a team without primadonnas, dopes, and softees. What was most impressive about the Suns last night was their defense….the way they used their heads to force tough shots, get deflections and strips, etc. Monty is doing a nice job of putting each player in a position to be successful. They are very cohesive on both ends and when Paul and Booker are doing their think they are extremely good on offense, very tough to stop.

    I’m not sure whether they will get back to the finals any time soon, but I wouldn’t ount them out either.

  190. Monty Williams is just a really good coach. This stuff is definitely beyond me, but looking at the good Twitter content (ie. Mo Dakhil, Steve Jones, etc), it’s clear the offense is diverse with a bunch of counters, off-ball stuff, disguise, etc. I never really got the impression that Thibs and his staff has that level of diversity — although it truly must be easier to do that when most of the players have been together for a few years, and, oh right, you have Chris Paul on your team.

    I’m very interested to see what Thibs and co. do in year 2. They’ve built the base on both O and D — now it’s time to build in more complicated stuff.

  191. I swear..
    If I see another journalist say on TV or suggest in an article that the Knicks trade for that 7’3″ dude..I AM GOING TO TOTALLY LOSE MY SHIT!

    Why the FUCK would we want THAT guy back in his current state. Theoretically, a healthy “7’3″ dude” would be awesome for this team as currently constructed. But he gets paid too much to have bad wheels at his size. He’ll be lucky to have 4 more years in the league at his current trajectory.

  192. Frank: Looking at Dame vs. Lowry (and presuming Lowry costs 2 years $60MM).
    Dame will make 50% more than Lowry over the next two seasons — basically $45MM/year.

    I don’t think it changes your point, but please use Spotrac.com to check salaries, they’re the most reliable (at least from the ones i know).

    In Spotrac.com there’s this:

    Designated Veteran Extension: 35% of Cap (Originally reported as 4 year, $196 million but due to cap decrease values were reduced)
    https://www.spotrac.com/nba/portland-trail-blazers/damian-lillard-10814/

    So the money is 39.3M in 2021-22 and 42.5 in 2022-23.

  193. Wasserman’s latest mock has us taking Cooper at 19, Duarte at 21, Quentin Grimes at 32, and McKinley Wright IV at 58. I’d be very happy with that draft, even if I’d ideally like the Knicks to take a big man in there somewhere.

  194. Lowry for 2 yrs takes us out of the max FA sweepstakes of 2022. You’d really need to believe we can do something special this year to sign Lowry to that deal.

  195. Considering what assets we have..I’d be happy coming away with Trey Murphy, Duarte, Bassey, and Christopher. I’d be elated if we came away with Bouknight and Bassey. A combination of Kispert and Duarte wouldn’t give us much shot creation..but our shooting would be worlds better. So many options for us and I am not used to it lol

  196. Alan:
    Wasserman’s latest mock has us taking Cooper at 19, Duarte at 21, Quentin Grimes at 32, and McKinley Wright IV at 58. I’d be very happy with that draft, even if I’d ideally like the Knicks to take a big man in there somewhere.

    He has Queta at 60th, i think it’d be a no brainer to pick him at 58th then. ;)
    But, spoiler alert, he’s wrong and there’s no way Queta is picked so low. At least, i hope he’s wrong.

  197. I like the Wasserman draft for the Knicks, but think 4 guards is a little excessive. If Queeta or another solid big are available at 58, take them.

  198. Totes McGoats as Totes McGoats:
    I swear..
    If I see another journalist say on TV or suggest in an article that the Knicks trade for that 7’3? dude..I AM GOING TO TOTALLY LOSE MY SHIT!

    Why the FUCK would we want THAT guy back in his current state. Theoretically,a healthy “7’3? dude” would be awesome for this team as currently constructed. But he gets paid too much to have bad wheels at his size. He’ll be lucky to have 4 more years in the league at his current trajectory.

    lol the only reason to consider a trade with Porzingis coming in is if there were draft assets and young players attached. Remove the protection on 2023, include an unprotected 2025, and Brunson and I’d consider it. Then we could trade him and/or the assets in a way that might improve the team. But Dolan would never allow it to happen so don’t even sweat it. Think about how much of a good PR move it would have been to sign Jeremy Lin on a minimum deal and Dolan wouldn’t even allow that!

  199. I suspect the Knicks-should-trade-for-the-7’3-dude articles are all clickbait. Didn’t catch me as i didn’t click in any of it.

  200. Haven’t been on here lately, so this may be obvious or previously discussed. I just find it incredible that the media narrative with the Suns seems to be “growth from Booker, resurgence from Paul, emergence of Ayton.” But looking at the numbers, all players are having average to below average years in all categories. All players have pretty high TS% numbers, and its not just this season. Seems to be a Suns front office philosophy rather than a Chris Paul thing. Here they are in order of minutes played:
    Bridges, 2348 MP, TS .667
    Booker, 2270 MP, TS .587
    Paul, 2199 MP, TS .599
    Ayton, 2115 MP, TS .653
    Crowder, 1648 MP, TS .574
    Cam Johnson 1437 MP, TS .563
    Payne, 1079 MP, TS .602

  201. Dame is not leaving his career in the hands of an owner and a GM again. He’s learned this the hard way, – so he’s not coming here to swap Neil for Leon. Only way he and other top 15-20 players move in this era is if they’re collaborating, designing their own teams and in charge of their own destiny. We would have to get slightly better next year to remain relevant and continue to be a possible option. What are the odds that at the trading deadline and at the end of the season, – Knicks are better than four seed?

    It might actually turn out to be the optimal time to bring in a Dame and whomever he wants convince to bust out of their situation; depending on the 2nd player, as long as we can keep either RJ or Randle to create a “big three”, I’m cool with it.

  202. That would be a great draft haul. I’m low-ish on Grimes but he wouldn’t be a bad roll of the dice at 32. Wright seems like a great candidate to be insanely valuable relative to his draft slot (or lack thereof).

  203. I actually kind of like Quentin Grimes, he has a good defensive reputation and he was a key player on a very good defensive team. It’s not too hard to envision him developing into a Reggie BullOCK type of player. Steal numbers are good. Shot 40+ from 3pt. I wouldn’t be mad at all drafting him at 32.

  204. Hubert, I owe you a nice bottle of scotch (or a half oz of golden teachers, etc). I piggybacked your Suns bet after you posted about it. Only got 25-1 odds though. Luckily I’m a NJ resident so I’m using draftkings, don’t have to deal with any Vito Spatafore types.

    I don’t really gamble all too often and didn’t realize I can cash out early. Draftkings is offering me a little over 70% of my potential winnings rn. Thinking I just may take it.

  205. The internet is a herd-creating and herd-following device nonpareil — it’s created its own herd-enforcement lingo and everything! — and I would expect form to prevail here.

    With that obvious fact out of the way, I remain not entirely opposed to making a move for the 7-3 dude. (*) The key variable for me is how healthy he is and how much of a health risk he poses.

    It cannot be seriously disputed that:

    1. He’s more of a true “second option” than Julius Randle.
    2. He had a far better 2020 playoffs than Julius Randle had a 2021 playoffs.
    3. He makes less money than Julius Randle is likely to make.
    4. He’s a significantly better defender than Julius Randle.

    With all that said, I’d need to have full transparency on his medicals and on what happened in Dallas this year to make a final decision. It could be that his health and body are on a trajectory we’d want nothing to do with. With that caveat, he remains an intriguing player. Him and Mitchell Robinson in the same rotation remains an intriguing thought. He absolutely could be an undervalued asset, and I dig undervalued assets.

    (*) I make no observation here as to whether Dolan would sign off on it, whether there’s any interest in Rose/Aller/WWW, etc.

  206. On the other hand, it seems obvious that assumptions are the weak points in any argument, as they have to be accepted on faith in a philosophy of science that prides itself on its rationalism.

  207. Early Bird:
    I like the Wasserman draft for the Knicks, but think 4 guards is a little excessive. If Queeta or another solid big are available at 58, take them.

    Queta or Jericho Sims.

  208. **It cannot be seriously disputed that:

    1. He’s more of a true “second option” than Julius Randle.
    2. He had a far better 2020 playoffs than Julius Randle had a 2021 playoffs.
    3. He makes less money than Julius Randle is likely to make.
    4. He’s a significantly better defender than Julius Randle.**

    Every single one of these can be seriously disputed. Please go troll someone else or present a reasonable argument.

  209. 1. He’s more of a true “second option” than Julius Randle.

    Care to show some work on this one? I’m not seeing it. This was his best year on offense and both his scoring volume and efficiency were below Randle’s career bests. His TS% was a tick higher than Randle’s this year, but 71% of his 2PA and 97% of his 3PA were assisted compared to 39% and 79% respectively for Randle.

    That seems like the opposite of being a “second option,” actually. It seems like being heavily reliant on other options to score.

    2. He had a far better 2020 playoffs than Julius Randle had a 2021 playoffs.

    It was 3 games.

    3. He makes less money than Julius Randle is likely to make.

    But he makes almost as much as Randle’s 2022 max (which we don’t know he’ll get), and is way worse at basketball. Seems like that should be a relevant consideration.

    4. He’s a significantly better defender than Julius Randle.

    This year the Mavs had a 118 defensive rating with him on the court. 111 with him off.

  210. Please go troll someone else or present a reasonable argument.

    On second thought, why the hell do I bother?

  211. geo:
    On the other hand, it seems obvious that assumptions are the weak points in any argument, as they have to be accepted on faith in a philosophy of science that prides itself on its rationalism.

    That’s an entirely true proposition, but when someone explicitly states the unknowns that may change the conclusions, the problem is kind of alleviated, no? I try to keep my small part of the KB world a non-hawt take zone.

    “Second option” status has little to nothing to do with data and everything to do with skills, strengths/weaknesses, style of play, self-image, etc.

    Yes, 7-3 dude’s 2020 playoffs were three games. Point stands.

    Yes, 7-3 dude makes around JR’s 2022 max. Thus the term “likely.” I’d fully expect KP to make less than JR when the dust settles. That’s an assumption, but an entirely reasonable one. It could wind up being wrong. Have to be comfortable with reasonable assumptions and uncertainties in the real world. Point stands.

    2021 on-off data? Let’s be serious.

  212. thenoblefacehumper: On second thought, why the hell do I bother?

    If you wind up litigating, it would be a good thing for you to get comfortable with uncertainties, 80/20 and 85/15 cases, knowing the contra side to your case as well or better than the lawyer(s) on the other side, and your counterpart/competitor/interlocutor having a different perspective on things you think you see entirely clearly and with certainty. If 7-3 dude hired you to write a brief on his behalf, could you do it? I’m pretty sure you could. It’s really not that hard.

  213. KP is always, ALWAYS, either:

    1. Injured
    2. Coming back from an injury

    Those are the two states in which he exists. I don’t doubt that he might put together one really good season where he’s actually healthy and we’ll hear lots of “I told you so” kind of takes from the KP stans. But so far in his career he has not been real durable. There always seems to be some excuse as to why he’s not playing well, except for those 8-10 games every year where he looks great and gets everybody all excited.

    I just don’t believe KP will ever string together a bunch of healthy, productive seasons.

  214. KP’s knees are gone and he can’t defend in space anymore. He can only block shots right at the rim now.

  215. We don’t. We know he’s had two surgeries and what they were for. We know nothing of the rehab/PT regimen he was on, any imbalances that might lead to repetitive injury and whether they can be fixed, etc.

    His health could be a deal-breaker, for sure. I’d want to know more, though, before coming to that conclusion. Typically players recover pretty much fully from both meniscus repairs and plain vanilla torn ACL surgeries. That’s my starting point baseline.

    If they’re giving the guy away, I’m kicking the tires. There’s zero reason not to — beyond petty grudges and the like, obviously.

  216. That’s an entirely true proposition, but when someone explicitly states the unknowns that may change the conclusions, the problem is kind of alleviated, no? I try to keep my small part of the KB world a non-hawt take zone.

    no fair E, you already know i’m a fan…it makes me feel good to know i’m not the most cynical human walking the earth…i like reading what you write…honestly, it’s much easier for me to understand than some of the basketball analytics stuff…

    i enjoy that you like messing with folks…keeps things interesting…i didn’t mind reub or bob neptune so much, they just lacked imagination and diversity, if you’re a one trick pony – you become very easy to dismiss…

    actually, i started reading asimov’s: Understanding Physics and immediately thought of you when i read that quote :)

    interesting to think in terms of useless and useful assumptions…

    it’s not the most technical type of work, but, before i get to louisa gilder and more recent thoughts on physics i need to build some foundation ( :P ) of basic knowledge…

    obviously asimov loved to write (i imagine he was quite the talker also) and he has a book on just about everything, but, i’ve always found his style of writing incredibly engaging, i appreciate his humanistic vibe…hopefully i’ll make it through the book sometime this year…didn’t do so great reading the last 3 books (odd thomas, justine, son of dathomir) i picked up…

    anyways, keep up the good fight E, and, don’t become too predictable…vary your rotations a bit for optimal effect…

  217. Dink: Luckily I’m a NJ resident so I’m using draftkings, don’t have to deal with any Vito Spatafore types.

    OTOH, I imagine Vito does not issue a W-2G for the winnings. though Hubert will probably treat them as carried interest

  218. E, even before KP got “hurt” though he missed a ton of games as a Knick. He missed more than 20 his rookie year and a bunch of sophomore year too. This was BEFORE his FIRST major kneed injury.

    There is pretty good evidence out there that once someone hits 7’2″ or taller, they’re chance of foot and knee problems increases dramatically. Remember, he’s had these injuries all under the age of 25. Its only going to get worse unless he severely limits himself athletically, which kind of reduces him to just an average player.

    He’s not elite on defense at all anymore. He’s not even particularly good. Randle is way better on both sides of the ball. You called him a niche player but KP is the niche.

    Also, are you seriously quoting on playoff series from last year where KP ended up getting hurt as well? LOL with this shit.

  219. E, all merc’d out: If you wind up litigating, it would be a good thing for you to…

    Speaking of litigating, i bet E could make a case for us to get Isiah Thomas back as the Knicks GM. LOL
    No 7’3 divas on the Knicks, please.

  220. E: “It cannot be seriously disputed that”

    Also E: “get comfortable with uncertainties, 80/20 and 85/15 cases”

    One can probably make a case for KP over Randle, but you haven’t made it.

  221. “…beyond petty grudges and the like, obviously.”

    First and last comment on this topic. I have never had particular feelings for or against [tall redacted], but I have come to believe he is a petty, narcissistic pain, and the antithesis of a good team mate. No thanks.

  222. I mean, for all we know there could be a huge breakthrough in sports science medicine in the next year or so that will allow KP to have bionic knees. If that happens, then anything is possible.

  223. E is one of those people who doesn’t really have an opinion, he just likes to argue against whatever the prevaling tide washes in. He ignores scholarship, dismisses evidence, makes up his own definitions for terms that are already clearly defined, and fabricates and equivocates whenever he feels like it. I guess he thinks that makes him clever.

  224. Z-man: E is one of those people who doesn’t really have an opinion, he just likes to argue against whatever the prevaling tide washes in. He ignores scholarship, dismisses evidence, makes up his own definitions for terms that are already clearly defined, and fabricates and equivocates whenever he feels like it. I guess he thinks that makes him clever.

    our very own Samuel E-lito

  225. “Second option” status has little to nothing to do with data and everything to do with skills, strengths/weaknesses, style of play, self-image, etc.

    I know I should stop responding but does anyone have any idea what this means?

  226. That was a very gritty Mets win. A HR to tie by a scrub vs the best closer in baseball who hadn’t blown a save or given up a HR all year, then a great rally to pick up Diaz after he got wild and couldn’t put the Brewers away with 2 outs. Jnd they just fucked Chapman up a couple of games ago.

  227. I like the Wasserman draft for the Knicks, but think 4 guards is a little excessive.

    Like I said, I’d want to take a big man with at least one pick. But Duarte and Grimes are both wings, and we need lots of those. And Cooper and Wright are point guards, and that is often the toughest position to get right. I have no issue on them doubling up on either or both of those positions, which are huge weaknesses for the team as presently constituted. One of the advantages of getting extra throws at the dart board is that you don’t have to get a bullseye every time.

    (Note: the only thing I know about darts is from that episode of Ted Lasso where Ted challenged Rebecca’s ex-husband. So I could be completely wrong about how the game is played.)

  228. We absolutely need a PG. My issue with drafting PGs, especially later on, is its so difficult to hit that there’s a significant chance we burn 2 roster spots with unplayable players. If we use 1 pick on a C, we usually have someone that’s minimally competent.

    Maybe at 58 it won’t matter because we can offer non-guaranteed years or use a 2-way spot, but I think rostering duds affects our ability to compete because we’re forced to sign more expensive players. Because Cs are easy to project we can avoid having to pay big money to Noel or other Cs and save up for a max guy.

    I also think the FA PG crop is pretty solid, if unspectacular. I think we’ll end up with someone who takes the pressure off us drafting a PG.

    I’d bet the Knicks sign at least one of:

    Rose
    McConnell
    Payne
    Dinwiddie
    Schroeder (once he realizes he’s not going to get paid what he wants)
    Lowry
    Conley
    Ball

    Idk, maybe I’m overly concerned because we’ve had such inconsistent production from past draft picks. But to appeal to 2022 FA, I see PGs as a difficult sell in the draft when they take more time to develop.

  229. i don’t think we’re drafting a pg to have them start day 1…. we’d be drafting a pg to complement whoever we sign… and seeing as how there are pg’s with varying levels of age/production/injury risk… whoever you draft should be seen as a long term ticket for the position.. for example… combo’ing derrick rose with sharife cooper off the bench isn’t terrible in aggregate… or dinwiddie/cooper… payne/dosunmu…. lowry/dosunmu…

    shouldn’t be afraid of burning roster spots with later draft picks in either case…. that’s exactly where you should be taking risks with roster spots unless you have them all filled already… we have tons of roster space… and the downside on a miss.. even with 19… 21 AND 32… is 5mm down the drain…. that’s not nothing… but it’s also relatively cheaper than making a mistake on a vet….

  230. djphan: i don’t think we’re drafting a pg to have them start day 1….

    I’m with you on this one, DJ. Point guards don’t usually start in their rookie seasons unless they’re Isiah (boo) or Magic. Stockton started 5 games his rookie season, Nash started 2. Knicks need someone (besides Rose) to pick up the minutes and run the point professionally while whatever kid(s) learn the ropes. It’d be nice if it was Vildoza, but who knows…

  231. I’m on-board with drafting 1 pg, but 2 pgs on top of Vildoza, IQ, and a FA seems excessive. We could use a cheap C in the 2nd to backup Mitch both long & short term.

    The 2nd PG isn’t getting minutes or is playing in the g-league. A center can reasonably find minutes behind Mitch and contribute right away. Because the plan seems to be attracting 2022 FAs, players with immediate impact have more importance to me in this draft than other years.

  232. 2021 – 2022 starting point guard wish list – in order of preference:
    – graham
    – mcconnell
    – lowry
    – someone else i’m not thinking of
    – ball
    – brunson
    – payne
    – conley
    – dinwiddie

    big no thanks for schroeder or walker…cp3 ain’t moving, lillard ain’t moving, rookie won’t start, rose may be our backup, who knows if vildoza can play in the nba…i don’t know enough about any other hidden gems to guess at…

    thankfully, it won’t be elf – who’s mom would argue mightily that the benching of her son is what truly lost the series against the hawks…

  233. I like Graham and Ball, but I’d like them a lot more if they weren’t RFAs. It’s gonna cost something to pry them away.

  234. The Knicks aren’t winning a title next year, so if they take 2 PGs it’s fine, we can sign an FA big to back up Mitch. Odds are both those PGs aren’t going to be good, and we currently have 0 good PGs on the roster anyhow.

    I’m not scrolling up enough to find out why people are arguing about Porzingis, but he was pretty good last year for the Mavs. But he’s massively overpaid and can’t stay healthy. Getting rid of him is better every day.

  235. Here is a good poll. Would you give RJ Barrett a max comtract? Like RJ but I think he ends up in the same bucket ats KP – solid young player who dos t generate surplus value.

    He is durable though, unlike KP.

  236. BTW, am i the only who can’t get the edit function to work anymore? I can open the edit page but can’t submit edits.

  237. Owen, it would depend on how/if he progresses over the next couple of seasons. If this is the player he is, then a max is not ideal. If he keeps adding things to his game in the way he did this past season? Then that’s someone who will probably have value around the league even at a post-rookie max.

  238. First, good morning Owen. And then i’ll try to edit the comment.

    [edit] yeah, it seems to work for me (i’m using Firefox for Windows)

  239. Right now RJ isn’t a max contract player. We still have a couple more years to worry about that anyway.

  240. About RJ it’s what Alan said. :)
    But i’m guessing he’ll be progressing and so by the beginning of the 4th year it’ll be a no brainer to give him the max. He’s no KP, people forget KP didn’t elevate his game, he started strong (for a rookie) and then he kept the same level of play so by the 4th year it’d be a mistake to give him the max. Not at all the trajectory RJ is on.
    And for a reminder, rookie max extensions are not max money because rookies are limited to 25% of the cap. That’s why OKC was so dumb, Russ, KD and Harden at the max would be 75% of the cap.

  241. RJ Barrett, his agent, and his trainer all know how much money is on the line for him this season. If he elevates his game another level, say to 21/6/4 with moderate improvements to his 2PT%, FT%, and defense, he’s going to get the full $175M+ we can give him as opposed to the $80-90M he’s on track to earn right now. I fully expect him to take the leap this year.

  242. Not to mention all the shoe money he stands to make from that PUMA deal. PUMA is so desperate for a signature athlete after Kyle Kuzma flopped that they gave J. Cole a sneaker.

  243. RJ Barrett can get a $175,000,000 contract when his rookie deal expires? Is that right? Wow.

    There have been some top-4 draft picks lately who are on track to be pretty good pros, without being on a “true star” trajectory. Guys like D’Angelo Russell, Lonzo Ball, Jaren Jackson Jr, etc… I feel like Barrett belongs to this group, though he does have another season or two to separate himself. (And that’s not a bad thing, as these are all solid and useful players).

    D’Angelo Russell started out bad, improved, then became an all star. Then he signed a $117,000,000 contract and proceeded to plateau.

    At this point, I’d be worried that this would be Barrett’s future.

  244. Barret getting $175 million? We might as well trade him right now for draft picks because who wants to overpay him hoping he continues developing? lol Maybe we can package him with Randle and turn into the OKC Thunder of the east and rebuild with an eye towards 2030. I’m sure Thibs and Rose will be on board with that. lmao

    Do people understand the problem with the combination drafting kids and penny pinching yet?

    I’m expecting RJ to move forward next year, but I also legitimately think he’s 4-5 years away from his peak. I have almost no idea what that peak will be even if I like him a lot. Neither does anyone else. But you HAVE TO pay him. You can’t trade him for picks, hope to get lucky, rinse and repeat. Whether it’s RJ, Randle, Mitch or whoever, there comes a time where you have to stop thinking 5-6 years out. You tank for a year and then start trying to get better. Otherwise you’ll keep running into the same decisions, keep taking a step backwards to avoid a possibly too rich contract, and never get anywhere. Sometimes you have to pay market value or even a small premium. As long as you don’t totally cripple your flexibility with a horrible contract or have a bunch of really old guys on the decline you can keep moving forward as some contracts expire, you continue making draft selections, young players develop etc..

  245. all of those guys spend most of their time out on the perimeter… rj isn’t built like them and has an entirely different profile… he’s more similar to guys like ingram… brown…. wiggins…. derozan… and all but wiggins have been known to work incredibly hard on their games….

    that’s not to say that it’s guaranteed that rj will improve or he will get to a certain level of play…. but he has a good pedigree… he’s with good trainers and he seems to have enough self awareness to identify things he is deficient in and then work to improve it…. all of that is in combination with a game that has strong foundations to improve to get to a high level…

    there’s only so much d’angelo russell… lonzo ball… and jaren jackson can improve to when they’re allergic to the rim…. you can afford to do that later in your career when you’re athleticism fades but not when you’re 23… this is what it means to have a limited ceiling….

    it’s much easier and is more meaningful for your game to build your game inside out… that’s something rj has and it’s a matter of whether or not he can achieve the things all his predecessors have been able to…. in my view it’s not relatively hard for him to do so and the odds are in his favor…

  246. What are the odds we can move up slightly from 19 and take Moody and stay pat with 21 and take Tre Mann? That’d be a good haul, no?

  247. I don’t want KP but it would be HILARIOUS to trade for him and get assets attached for Dallas to get rid of him. The gift that keeps on giving.

    Then Doncic leaves bc Dallas has no picks and can’t build around him and comes to NYC after KP’s contract is done.

  248. swiftandabundant:
    I don’t want KP but it would be HILARIOUS to trade for him and get assets attached for Dallas to get rid of him. The gift that keeps on giving.

    Then Doncic leaves bc Dallas has no picks and can’t build around him and comes to NYC after KP’s contract is done.

    That would be pretty funny, but does Dallas even have enough assets to unload him? Because of the uncertain status of the 2023 pick, owed to the Knicks but with top-10 protection, I’ve read that they can’t trade a first round pick before 2025. I guess Brunson is interesting, but…

  249. In some ways RJ reminds me of a smaller version of Julius Randle. Right now, RJ’s shot creation is lacking on all 3 levels and is a long way from being max-worthy elite. For me, ball-handling, court vision, and athleticism are pretty much fixed commodities. He’s a good but not great passer. He has a good but not great handle for a 3, and an average handle for a 2. He’s a physically stout defender but not a lockdown type. He’s crafty around the rim but his athletic ceiling and weakish right hand make him susceptible to being blocked or being forced into turnovers. He doesn’t square up on his shots (his body faces at 2:00 relative to the target line.)

    The place where I can see him making the most dramatic improvement is in the midrange. He’s got great footwork and strength so that tilted, low-release jumper can work if he can generate space. It’s just a matter of whether he can turn it into a reasonably efficient shot, and build other parts of his shot-creation game around it.

    All that said, the biggest question for me is whether he’s a winner, a guy who elevates his game in big moments. I’m more optimistic on that front. He has a ton of confidence, never seems to get rattled, and is built like a truck so will probably be durable through long playoff runs. He wants to be great and is willing to put in the work to be the best player he possibly can be. So even if he eats up more cap than he should, you can live with it if he makes the team better than a lower-cost replacement. I’d rather pay a less inherently skilled winner the max than pay guys like Tobias Harris or Rudy Gay.

  250. Looking at the per year salary of a player without cap context is pretty meaningless. A 20 million/year contract ain’t what it used to be.

    The projected cap in 2023-2024 is supposed to be $119 million. I could not find what it’s projected to be in 2024-2025, which is when he would sign his max. But it looks like its going up 3 to 5 million a year. If RJ is making 35 million per year, that is 29 percent of the cap space.

    The luxury cap penalty in 203-204 is projected to be $144 million. It looks like the cap is going up 4 or 5 million every year.

  251. Chances are RJ won’t be worth the max when we owe him the extension. If we want to keep him we’ll have to gamble on further improvement. I have no idea what the next couple seasons hold so I don’t even know how to begin speculating on the 4-5 years after that.

    The Knicks will likely be maxed out, so extending RJ the max isn’t as significant for cap issues & will mostly affects the luxury tax

  252. Speaking of our rookies and extensions if I’m Mitch I’m spending all my summer practicing those 10-12ft hooks Ayton is so good at. It will make his next contract much more lucrative.

  253. how’s the diaper changing biz going swift?

    every once in a while i’ll still throw out to the oldest, 19 now, just how difficult it was to potty train her :)

  254. RJ’s probably going to be in the Markkanen/Collins Ambiguity Zone when the window’s open 12-15 months from now.

  255. It’s definitely a full time job.

    She is wonderful. We’re sleep deprived for sure although last night she gave us our first long stretch of uninterrupted sleep. She slept for 6 hours straight. This was after a week of barely sleeping more than an hour at a time before waking back up. Last night when she went down I fell asleep and when I woke up I swore it had only been like 10 minutes but we had been out for over 6 hours. It was glorious. Its my wife’s birthday today so I told her this was her gift from our daughter.

  256. Another big step forward from RJ at age 21 and it will be a no-brainer to extend him.

    I didn’t love him as a prospect coming out of college, but he has absolutely won me over. Kid has the intangibles you want and he’s built like a brick shithouse. I’m a believer.

  257. Yeah if RJ takes another leap like he did this last year, he is well on his way to being worth a max extension. Although the next leap will be harder. I feel like the jump he made this year was the “low hanging fruit” if you will, especially improving the free throws. Although not everyone can just improve their 3 point shooting like he did in one year so early, so that’s super promising.

  258. I would way have RJ over Markkanen or Collins right now, let alone when he is their age. To me, his floor is a notch below a Jaylen Brown-level player and his ceiling is somewhere between Brown and Jimmy Butler. There’s lots of reasons to believe that he will never catch up to Brown, but maxing him on the potential for his ceiling is pretty much standard practice for someone like him.

  259. You max him immediately, and hope he takes the All-NBA leap shortly thereafter. He’ll still be young enough to be moved for assets or another max player if he doesn’t work out. The fact that Collin Sexton is being floated as a possible max players should tell you everything you need to know about high-volume offense initiators in this league. Like JK47, I have come around on him.

  260. I definitely want to extend RJ and pay him well but I have a long history of being annoyed that so many extensions default to the max salary. Why can’t we pay RJ $100mm over 4 years? That is a perfectly fair contract. If someone else out there offers him more, we match it.

  261. If we’re maxing RJ and Randle that’s, what, 60% of the salary cap? We better have figured out a way to bring in two legitimate max players before we pay them like that. If they’re our two best players making that kind of coin, we’re going nowhere.

  262. How many teams have won a title with two fake max players? In fact, has any team even won one with one? Maybe there’s one odd max player I’m not thinking of, or a situation where someone’s third banana was overpaid like Kevin Love. But bottom line: if your max guys are not really max guys, i.e. they’re not giving you value surplus to the max, then most likely you’re fucked.

    So yeah, by the standards that losing teams employ, RJ should get a max. But he’s worth much less. And I like RJ a lot.

  263. The Knicks will likely be maxed out, so extending RJ the max isn’t as significant for cap issues & will mostly affects the luxury tax

    Anyone worried about maxing RJ seems to be missing this. We don’t have to do it until 2023, and unless things change drastically we’ll be operating over the cap by then.

    It’s a no-brainer.

  264. swiftandabundant:
    Yeah if RJ takes another leap like he did this last year, he is well on his way to being worth a max extension. Although the next leap will be harder. I feel like the jump he made this year was the “low hanging fruit” if you will, especially improving the free throws. Although not everyone can just improve their 3 point shooting like he did in one year so early, so that’s super promising.

    I think it’s legitimate to ask: which player has the higher ceiling, RJ or Mikal? And that’s not a slight to RJ. Mikal is first and foremost a winner. He’s one of those guys who is really hard to put a value on. In the long run, he may be just as instrumental to winning as RJ, and even a harder player to acquire. Yet most would not think of him as worthy of a max contract.

  265. I don’t think it’s ever a no-brainer to pay someone considerably more than their worth.

    If we’re over the cap bc we traded for Lillard, signed Bradley Beal as a free agent, and extended Randle and Mitch, then fine. But if we’re over the cap because Randle and Lonzo Ball are making $80mm, I think it matters.

    This isn’t about “is RJ good” or “do I want to keep RJ”. The answer to both is yes.

    This is about “why do I have to max someone just because I want to keep them?”

  266. thenoblefacehumper: Anyone worried about maxing RJ seems to be missing this. We don’t have to do it until 2023, and unless things change drastically we’ll be operating over the cap by then.

    It’s a no-brainer.

    I don’t think anyone thinks that RJ won’t be maxed if he is retained. I think the underlying question is: should he be traded prior to maxing him? Would he be worth more as an asset in a trade than as a max salary player?

    Would you rather have a player like Bogdonovic at $18 million and another $12-$18 million player than RJ at $30 million?

    The conversation is about cap management. As tnfh says, once we are capped out, we will be boxed in to maxing RJ. If he’s not a max player himself, you had better have one or two other ones on the roster by then.

    And yes, the clock is ticking.

  267. Hubert:
    I don’t think it’s ever a no-brainer to pay someone considerably more than their worth.

    If we’re over the cap bc we traded for Lillard, signed Bradley Beal as a free agent, and extended Randle and Mitch, then fine.But if we’re over the cap because Randle and Lonzo Ball are making $80mm, I think it matters.

    This isn’t about “is RJ good” or “do I want to keep RJ”. The answer to both is yes.

    This is about “why do I have to max someone just because I want to keep them?”

    The point should be that it would be dumb to have Lonzo and Randle making $80 mill aav in the first place. But even then, if you let RJ walk, you are boxing yourself in to Lonzo, Randle and role players. You would absolutely have to max him.

  268. i’m not so sure about lonzo anymore, him not really being a penetrating point guard whom can dish or kick out is a bit of an issue for me – it’s like he plays similar to a point forward, which we already have…

    i don’t know if that’s by design, or simply his skill set…

  269. How many teams have won a title with two fake max players?

    well i think we’re looking at two teams in finals with one…. booker and middleton…

    phoenix has survived it by nabbing cp3… and leaps from almost all of their young players … also thanks to cp3… they had some good timing with this run both from solid play from all of their guys and also injuries to their opponents … they will have some tough decisions to make beginning with cp3 and how much to commit to ayton and bridges and the cams… so that booker deal will weigh on them if he continues on this erratic career path… but for now they’ve had good fortune…

    the bucks have survived by simply having giannis.. the lopez deal does seem like a decent sized winner in hindsight but simply having competent running mates… and also some injury luck… has been enough….

  270. USA Select Team players Immanuel Quickley of the New York Knicks and Miles Bridges and P.J. Washington of the Charlotte Hornets are out of training camp due to COVID-19 protocols, sources told ESPN.

    i hope quik is doing okay…

  271. and if anyone is concerned about what RJ will become… just take solace in the fact that it’s incredibly rare… if it’s even happened… for a young player to improve as drastically as RJ has… and then never improve at all for the rest of their career… if anyone can think of one i’m all ears….

    if a player can fight their way from the bottom of the nba… and then identify what’s wrong to immediately improve themselves to get to league average that quickly… they also have the ability to evolve themselves to eventually get to the upper echelons of the nba… sometimes it’s quick (ingram.. brown… siakam)… most of the time it takes awhile (lowry… kemba walker… nash… derozan),…. but usually there’s another leap coming…

    and i say ‘usually’ only because nothing is guaranteed… but i am pretty sure it’s actually never happened…. sometimes a guy like cam payne will languish their whole career and then figure it out 5+ years later… and then get stuck at that level or revert afterwards… that’s not the same thing… these are young guys with good pedigrees adapting to the environment around them and being able to do so quickly is a very good indicator for their future…

    we may not know how high that goes… but you can probably bet that he’ll be at least a good starter… and most good starters are going to get 20-28mm anyway…. so i don’t really see an outcome where a max isn’t going to be worth it.. this isn’t a KP situation where he comes in with a tough guy act and then just spends his summers hanging out with his brother and flatlines for four straight seasons…

  272. To put on rose colored glasses for a second, we have a GM who traded KP at least partially because he might not be worth the Max salary he wanted and despite obviously impending fan outrage. If he gives a max to Barrett, Barrett is likely to be worth it.

  273. There’s so much time left before RJs extension I don’t really see the point of discussing it. We’re missing half the data we’ll have by the time we need to make a decision. There’s too much that can happen for it to be an informed opinion either way.

    RJ looks very promising after his sophomore year and I hope he maintains his shooting while adding more wrinkles to his game. I have no idea what happens the next 2 years, regression, improvement, and (god forbid) injury are all possible. We’re really jumping the gun on this one.

    Mitch is potentially getting signed to a new deal this off-season, what do we think about him?

  274. I’m firmly in the camp of “I love RJ, I would extend RJ, but I would not max RJ until I see another leap.”

    I generally don’t understand why everything has to be a max. Mikal Bridges is awesome. Is he gonna get a 5 year max?

  275. I think for a volume scorer (efficient or not) and 3rd overall pick, at even decent production, RJ will likely command a max from somebody.

    Mikal doesn’t score enough to warrant a max deal & he wasn’t drafted 3rd overall with the same expectations and potential.

    Maybe we can get a slight discount on RJ, but just by reputation I doubt it happens if he is slightly more efficient. Again, there’s 2 more years so lots can happen.

  276. I’m getting so sick of the hack-a-star strategy. It’s time for the NBA to revert to the 3 shots to make 2 when the team is over the limit and 2 to make 1 instead of the and-1 if over the limit. Go back to the pre-1981 rules!

  277. I would way have RJ over Markkanen or Collins right now, let alone when he is their age. To me, his floor is a notch below a Jaylen Brown-level player and his ceiling is somewhere between Brown and Jimmy Butler. There’s lots of reasons to believe that he will never catch up to Brown, but maxing him on the potential for his ceiling is pretty much standard practice for someone like him.

    Yeah, I mean, I think it’s totally fair to ask whether teams should automatically max out their young stars, but they all do it, so if he’s still a Knick when the time comes, RJ will get a max extension. It’s just de rigueur.

  278. Reading this “debate” about RJ’s next contract is hilarious. We always complain that the Knicks never build thru the draft and haven’t signed a rookie to a contract extension since Charlie Ward. The Knicks finally have a high draft pick worthy of keeping long term and people after his 2nd season are already worrying about giving him too much money when he is 23 yo and talking about possibly trading him for I assume mostly draft picks which is super ironic.

  279. BigBlueAL:
    Reading this “debate” about RJ’s next contract is hilarious.We always complain that the Knicks never build thru the draft and haven’t signed a rookie to a contract extension since Charlie Ward.The Knicks finally have a high draft pick worthy of keeping long term and people after his 2nd season are already worrying about giving him too much money when he is 23 yo and talking about possibly trading him for I assume mostly draft picks which is super ironic.

    This is an oversimplification of the debate. Most importantly, no one here is talking about dumping him for draft picks (although if you had the #8 pick in the Doncic draft and you could trade RJ and the #8 to move up to #3, that would have been a pretty good move, no?)

    And as a GM/POBO, you shouldn’t care less what the Knicks did with their previous picks. The only consideration should be what is best for the team going forward from this moment. If you could package RJ and 2 firsts for Lillard, you do it without hesitation. If you need to include RJ plus four firsts, two pick swaps, Mitch, Obi and IQ, you pass without hesitation.

    And why shouldn’t a Knicks fan be worried about overpaying one of their own? Hasn’t bad asset valuation, team construction and cap management been at the root of our problems since the 1970’s?

  280. “djphan
    July 8, 2021 at 7:28 pm

    and if anyone is concerned about what RJ will become… just take solace in the fact that it’s incredibly rare… if it’s even happened… for a young player to improve as drastically as RJ has… and then never improve at all for the rest of their career… if anyone can think of one i’m all ears…. ”

    *

    By “drastic improvement”, it’s a bit tricky to find comps because RJ was really quite terrible in his rookie year. So, sure, few players have improved that much. But every year there are examples of high lottery picks that start poor, improve enough to get a big salary, and subsequently plateau/regress, making them negative assets to their respective teams. The aforementioned D’Angelo Russell is a recent one. Others include: Aaron Gordon, Buddy Hield, Victor Oladipo, Otto Porter, Harison Barnes, Brevin Knight, Michael-Kidd Gilchrist, Eric Gordon, etc.. Even our own beloved Allen Houston started terrible (like, RJ Barrett bad), improved enough to get a supermax, only to plateau with his supermax deal and become a godforesaken albatross so big that an amnesty clause was named after him (even if it wasn’t used on him).

    Not saying RJ is going to be any of these guys, but there seem to be many examples of such “development”.

  281. One way to end the incessant fouling at the end of games is to offer teams an option of shooting the 2 (or 3) FTs or taking a “technical” FT (anyone on the floor can shoot it) and giving them possession after the FT attempt. So if the Suns are in the penalty and Giannis if fouled, the Bucks could have Giannis shoot 2 or have someone else, e.g. Middleton, shoot 1 and then take the ball out of bounds. Or alternatively, on the 3rd team foul in the penalty, allow anyone on the floor to shoot the shots.

    In one league I played in, if you got a shooting foul, you got one point and one shot. That definitely sped up the game, but I doubt the NBA goes for any solution that awards points apart from shooting,

  282. ***One way to end the incessant fouling at the end of games is to offer teams an option of shooting the 2 (or 3) FTs or taking a “technical” FT (anyone on the floor can shoot it) and giving them possession after the FT attempt… That definitely sped up the game, but I doubt the NBA goes for any solution that awards points apart from shooting***

    Yeah, at the WCF game I took my daughter to, Monty had the Suns foul on every possession in the final minute with his team UP by 3. Though I understood the analytical argument to do it, it was kind of strange to see as somebody who grew up watching only the trailing team intentionally foul at the end of games. Also, it was hard to explain to my daughter, who just wanted to see the Clips try to tie the game. She was like “this is dumb and boring”, which is not the way Adam Silver wants young fans to feel during the end of close WCF games. So I feel like the league should be open to any changes that address this, including Z-Man’s suggestion above. (Also, I feel like analytics that effect team building, roster development, and big-picture in-game strategy are great, but when they piss on the final minute of a close game, it makes me kind of hate the nerds.)

    Another thought: can’t you give a team the right to decline a penalty if it acts against them, like they do in the NFL? So if there’s a foul, the team can opt just to take it out, rather than have to shoot the free throws and surrender the possession. Just a thought.

    (I’m all for Jowles’ Elam ending idea, but you can only institute that for overtime, right? Not the end of regulation).

  283. But every year there are examples of high lottery picks that start poor, improve enough to get a big salary, and subsequently plateau/regress, making them negative assets to their respective teams. The aforementioned D’Angelo Russell is a recent one. Others include: Aaron Gordon, Buddy Hield, Victor Oladipo, Otto Porter, Harison Barnes, Brevin Knight, Michael-Kidd Gilchrist, Eric Gordon, etc..

    so i think you were misunderstanding me…

    it’s incredibly rare… if it’s even happened… for a young player to improve as drastically as RJ has… and then never improve at all for the rest of their career…

    if a player can fight their way from the bottom of the nba… and then identify what’s wrong to immediately improve themselves to get to league average that quickly… they also have the ability to evolve themselves to eventually get to the upper echelons of the nba…

    with that in mind let’s take a look at your list:

    Russell age 19 – his leap didn’t come until age 22
    Gordon 19 – wasn’t exactly terrible coming in.. but out of everyone this is the best example
    Hield 24 – came into to league a million years old and still took a few years to make a leap
    Oladipo 21 – he made an allstar team
    Barnes 20 – his leap didn’t come until his 3rd year at age 22
    Porter 20 – he was hurt his rookie year
    Knight 20 – bpm of 3.6 rookie year
    MKG 19 – leap was in his third year.. if you use ws48 maybe it applies .. but i’m pretty sure bpm captured his career more accurately…
    E Gordon 20 – again the leap came in his third year

    so credit on finding Gordon but i think the parameters are being stretched if we’re just using every lotto pick who struggled early .. alot of players improve later in their careers… and that’s what you’re capturing..

    what doesn’t happen is a very large improvement going from 1st to 2nd years .. and that’s captured by the ingram/brown/siakam group…

    cont’d

  284. and the reason why that distinction matters is this quick improvement captures a lot of things about a player… how much of a fluke the rookie year was based on age… adjusting to a new league/level of comp… but also their work ethic… and their ability to identify deficiencies and working at it to correct it and make themselves better…

    oladipo’s career captures this wonderfully… he made steady improvements throughout his time in orlando and it seemed like he stalled out but he eventually broke through… this happens a lot to guys as trying to master anything will involve some plateaus along the way… development is very rarely linear…. but that second year bump is usually pretty critical to their career trajectory from my observation…

    and i think that’s probably what we have with RJ… he may not improve on aggregate level next season but that’s ok.. he’s established that he can quickly identify deficiencies and make large tangible improvements in an offseason…. guys like this don’t all of a sudden just stop doing that… and so it would be a safe bet another leap or two is coming.. we just don’t know when and to what degree …

  285. Donnie Walsh: (Also, I feel like analytics that effect team building, roster development, and big-picture in-game strategy are great, but when they piss on the final minute of a close game, it makes me kind of hate the nerds.)

    Great story, Donnie. As to analytics, even aside from that there have always been identifiable ways to get an edge in a given sports situation that made the sport consider a modification of some sort. Wilt by himself generated more rule changes than anything because he had so many physical advantages.

    I remember the 3 to make 2 days, not a fan of that, only slows the game down more, but it was a clunky attempt to solve the same issue…excessive fouling. Some may remember that back in the 60’s, there was no such thing as a “non-shooting ” foul…a non-shooting foul was one FT, a shooting foul was two FTS, then in the penalty it went to 2 and 3 to make 2. The non-shooting foul definitely sped the game up.

    Personally, I don’t get why the NBA is so reluctant to address this particular problem head on. They already made some tangential moves, e.g. if you foul a person off the ball in the last 2 minutes it’s one shot and the ball. Same with fouling a guy before the ball is inbounded. Why they can’t continue down this path is beyond me.

    Another option you could give a team that is fouled in the last 2 minutes is to run the clock down a certain amount of seconds, which is done on certain penalties in the last minute of an NFL game.

  286. Somehow I think Adam Silver thinks that having games not completely over for as long as possible is best…more media time and more ads to show before fans change the channel to something else. So any solution that makes it more impossible for a team down a few points in the last minute to pull a win out of their ass is going to be a hard sell. That’s why I like the 1 shot and the ball option best…it discourages fouling but at the same time there is a chance for a steal on the inbound so it’s not a no-brainer. In fact, analytics might determine that it’s safer to have a 50% FT shooter take 2 than to risk a miss and a steal on an inbounds pass.

  287. A week or two back, I linked to a piece by a sports media guy (Richard Deitsch at The Athletic, I think?) who said that foul-and-pray is actually good for business, because games get their biggest audiences in the closing minutes of “action,” so anything that extends that segment of the game increases the average audience and helps the league make more money in advertising.

    So… yeah.

  288. Alan:
    A week or two back, I linked to a piece by a sports media guy (Richard Deitsch at The Athletic, I think?) who said that foul-and-pray is actually good for business, because games get their biggest audiences in the closing minutes of “action,” so anything that extends that segment of the game increases the average audience and helps the league make more money in advertising.

    So… yeah.

    lol if a moron like me could figure it out, you can be sure that Adam Silver is on it!

    More generally, it seems like we are in an age of reactionary rule changes across sports. Golf is a great example of a sport that is begging for intervention on a number of fronts. Baseball did some interesting stuff with doubleheaders, extra innings, intentional walks. Football is working to protect its players’ brains. It’s a shame that it seems that most changes are driven by revenue implications rather than the integrity of the game.

  289. Speaking of baseball, I wonder if the infield shifts will cause a reaction down the chain all the way to HS for players to become better situational hitters. I’d rather see that than a rules change to discourage the shift. It’s frustrating to see so many well hit balls that used to be clean hits gobbled up by an infielder playing in right field, yet it’s also embarrasing that players have such a hard time hitting the other way.

  290. NBA players have no excuse for not hitting 70% or more of their FTs when a literal cheat code exists. Rick Barry is still alive and teaching! A couple weeks shooting underhanded with the guru would fix these guys right up.*

    Players got in their heads that shooting well underhanded is somehow more embarrassing than missing half their FTs. No sympathy for the guys who can’t figure it out.

    *Rick Barry’s son coached my 7th/8th grade basketball team and had us all shooting FTs underhanded. If he could get us over 70% as a team I have no doubt it could work for NBA players.

  291. Since I don’t want to be accused of lying on the internet, it was not one of Barry’s kids who coached me, but one of his nephews. Realized this after the ‘edit post’ timer ran out. Definitely wasn’t coached by Brent, Jon or Scooter. But my point still stands!

  292. Sorry Dink, I disagree. Wilt tried every method imaginable, including shooting underhanded, with not much lasting change. Hey told a story about how he worked with a FT guru and after a while he didn’t get better and the guru’s FTs were all screwed up.

    It seems to me that the super strong guys With huge hands like Wilt, Shaq, Wallace, Dudley, Giannis, DeAndre, etc. are the ones who have the most trouble, maybe because the ball feels so small and light to them. Even Bill Russell was in the 50%s for his career, and I doubt that it was due to a lack of work ethic.

  293. Dink:
    Since I don’t want to be accused of lying on the internet, it was not one of Barry’s kids who coached me, but one of his nephews. Realized this after the ‘edit post’ timer ran out. Definitely wasn’t coached by Brent, Jon or Scooter. But my point still stands!

    Scooter?
    :-)

  294. I remember back in the day Shaq said that was an issue for him. His hands were so big that it was hard for him to shoot free throws.

    Not to beat a dead horse but the trade RJ discussion has me fuming. I’m not saying we shouldn’t do that if its the right move but even with top 5 picks, the chances of landing Lebron are slim. Are teams just supposed to trade any top 5 pick before their extension, even if they’re a good player, bc they might be overpaid, and just continually kick the can down the road in the hopes of one day drafting Lebron?

    One can only look at a player RJ gets compared to a lot, DeRozan. He has never been a super star, but he’s been a really good player his whole career and was basically part of the one-two punch of Raptors teams that consistently won 50 plus games and got to the ECF. And eventually he was part of the Kawhi trade. The Raptors would not have had all of that success if they’d traded DeRozan early in his career.

    If we keep our draft picks and develop them, then we can have overpaid players like RJ on our team as long as they are still good players because we can make up for it by having underpaid players on rookie contracts. The cap is obviously an important consideration but team building isn’t just about the cap and there are ways to compensate for an overpaid player.

  295. *Rick Barry’s son coached my 7th/8th grade basketball team and had us all shooting FTs underhanded. If he could get us over 70% as a team I have no doubt it could work for NBA players.

    Why are you turning Knickerblogger into a den of lies?!

  296. I remember back in the day Shaq said that was an issue for him. His hands were so big that it was hard for him to shoot free throws.

    And the flip side was a guy like Ewing, whose relatively small hands made him a great shooter for a big man (he’d almost certainly be a stretch 5 if he played in the modern NBA), but made him a lesser rebounder and finisher than peers like Shaq, Robinson, and Hakeem.

  297. Lying on KB? Time to shut the whole thing down. We only except statistics and damned lies

  298. Brian Cronin: Why are you turning Knickerblogger into a den of lies?!

    Internet liars are the worst of all!

    RE RJ extension. I guess the existence of a salary cap means teams always have to consider max extending vs. trading. RJ seems like a good bet to get extended, and there’s no rush to do so. Maybe the Knicks will max either Randle or RJ, but not both?

  299. Alan: remember back in the day Shaq said that was an issue for him. His hands were so big that it was hard for him to shoot free throws.

    And the flip side was a guy like Ewing, whose relatively small hands made him a great shooter for a big man (he’d almost certainly be a stretch 5 if he played in the modern NBA), but made him a lesser rebounder and finisher than peers like Shaq, Robinson, and Hakeem.

    Of course if we took this to its logical extreme, Nerlens with his Deadpool butterstumps would be shooting 95% from the stripe. Unfortunately he’s at 65% for his career.

  300. I think there are physical issues that affect FT shooting, I had an impinged shoulder for a long time that didn’t let me bring my shoulder in far enough, but I think the issues are mostly mental.

    It’s an adjustment to go from sprinting 100mph to a standstill and focusing exclusively on form. I wonder if there’s some element of adhd involved or something similar where they can’t focus on something as routine and boring as FTs after the excitement of the rest of the game.

    Consider how many screwed up FT forms there are in the NBA and those players still shoot better than players like Shaq. Remember Ronnie Brewer? He had some accident that completely messed up his shoulder and he shot the ball in one of the most hackneyed motions I’ve ever seen. Ronnie wasn’t winning any shooting competitions but still managed to get his FT% to .675 on his career. Joakim Noah’s weirdo shot is at .700 for his career.

    Plus other big-handed players like Dr. J had good shooting %. It can’t solely be big-handedness even if that’s a factor.

  301. “Of course if we took this to its logical extreme, Nerlens with his Deadpool butterstumps would be shooting 95% from the stripe. Unfortunately he’s at 65% for his career.”

    We actually have this data. Noel’s hands are 9.5×10″

    Draft Measurements

    The issue is that Noel clearly lost his hands in a lawnmower accident and has sown on mannequin hands in their place.

  302. It seems to me that the super strong guys With huge hands like Wilt, Shaq, Wallace, Dudley, Giannis, DeAndre, etc. are the ones who have the most trouble, maybe because the ball feels so small and light to them. Even Bill Russell was in the 50%s for his career, and I doubt that it was due to a lack of work ethic.

    Wilt’s best FT% season was 61′-62′ when he switched to the granny style. He shot 61.3% that year, 11% higher than the previous season and 10% better than his career average. He didn’t stop shooting that way because it wasn’t working. Here’s a quote from his autobiography:

    “I felt silly, like a sissy, shooting underhanded. I know I was wrong, I know some of the best foul shooters in history shot that way. I just couldn’t do it.”

    I may have been pushing it by saying 70% would be attainable, but Wilt showed you can make a big improvement over just one season. Guys like Giannis should at least have an open mind about it.

  303. Not to beat a dead horse but the trade RJ discussion has me fuming.

    And where exactly did you read this “Trade RJ discussion” that has your blood boiling? Bc it hasn’t been suggested here.

  304. Shaq’s FT shooting form was ridiculously bad, maybe the worst I’ve ever seen. His elbow did the “chicken wing” thing, and he generated no arc or spin on his free throws, so the whole thing was this knuckleball line drive kind of monstrosity. He’d never get a friendly bounce because there was no spin on the ball.

    I used to love watching him try and fail to shoot free throws, I found it endlessly entertaining. He was a great player in his day but I don’t get the feeling he ever worked very hard on the FT thing. It was just the same fugly knuckleball clanging off the rim thousands of times.

  305. Yeah, I mean, I think it’s totally fair to ask whether teams should automatically max out their young stars, but they all do it, so if he’s still a Knick when the time comes, RJ will get a max extension. It’s just de rigueur.

    This is simply not true, Brian. This is what all the losing teams do.

    San Antonio never maxed Manu or Tony Parker. Golden State didn’t max Steph, Draymond, or Klay after their rookie contracts. Giannis did not get a max until his 7th year in the league.

    Conversely, almost all teams that defaulted to the max eventually got bogged down bc of that mistake. Philadelphia ignored all the flashing red signs surrounding Ben Simmons, and now they’re fucked. Dallas did the same with KP. Minnesota with Wiggins. The Blazers with CJ McCollum.

    There’s a whole pile of dead lemmings at the bottom of the cliff, and your argument is to follow them?

    We have a choice!

  306. All will become clear when we remember this ironclad principle:

    Not even relentless strings of actually losing actual games chaps the asses of the permanent internet armchair GM class more than the “bad contract.”

  307. Neither the Sixers, the Blazers, or the Mavs are losing teams and none are remotely “fucked.” It’s very, very difficult to win an NBA championship. And if the Suns could do what they did — 19-63 to the cusp of a chip in two years — there’s really no such thing as irrevocably “fucked.” I’d recommend a trip back to the commentary archives to draft night 2019 and a review of what was said about the Suns, their owner, and their organizational philosophy on that night. That should imbue all of this with deep humility for the next basketball century.

  308. I know djphan mentioned the Booker contract, but it’s highly debatable that he didn’t deserve a max. Does anyone really think Devon Booker at $29.4mm right now is a bad deal?

    The other one he mentioned was Middleton. Well, giving a max to Middleton instead of a real max player is probably the biggest reason Milwaukee was such a disappointment in the playoffs the last few years. (And let’s be honest: they would have been knocked out in the second round again if not for Kyrie & Garden’s injuries.)

  309. Neither the Sixers, the Blazers, or the Mavs are losing teams and none are remotely “fucked.”

    It was poor word choice by me.

    All of those teams are in good position bc they each have one legit superstar: Embiid, Lillard, and Doncic, respectively.

    But each one of those teams (and Milwaukee) has the same problem: their #2 guy is a max player who didn’t deserve a max.

  310. Hubert: But each one of those teams (and Milwaukee) has the same problem: their #2 guy is a max player who didn’t deserve a max.

    Which brings us back full circle to:

    “Raise your hand if you want to pay Julius Randle $25-$35M to be a second option.”

    I completely agree that a 1-2 maxed-out punch of JR and RJ very likely isn’t going to get you where you want to go. So … then what? The answer, IMHO, is “trade JR at his peak, i.e., this summer, normalize roles, go from there.” (I’m assuming he doesn’t accept his available “mini max” this summer.)

    There’s no room for sentiment and yesterday’s performance in this project. Just doesn’t apply.

  311. Does anyone really think Devon Booker at $29.4mm right now is a bad deal?

    i mean of course looking at in hindsight with the benefit of running through the west without each of their opponents having their best or second best player sitting injured… it looks pretty great.. the reason the suns are here are mainly because of a)chris paul and b)ayton/bridges on rookie deals which mitigate the hurt from the booker deal.. once they have to resign basically half the team to much larger deals… it’s going to start feeling a bit cramped… it’s probably going to cost them bridges and payne at the very least….

    and even though from a value perspective it was a bad deal… it’s still excusable… i was advocating to sign d’angelo russell and randle to big contracts also way back when …. and at that juncture in their careers dlo and booker were very comparable…. depending where you are on the win curve you should be taking gambles like that because you’re still in talent accumulation mode and all it takes is cap space…. and phoenix didn’t have anyone on their roster worth a damn…. to finally get a warm body you should do everything you can to keep him and then worry about the rest later because it could be awhile before you get more talent to where that contract matters…

    it just so happened they squeezed enough talent in a short amount of time to where the deal didn’t matter either… so they were fortunate in that regard too… but there are instances where giving out max deals are fine even if the value proposition isn’t all that great because you can get value elsewhere… and that means hitting on draft picks and getting an alltime player to do most of the heavy lifting… and that’s what happened with the bucks and suns…

  312. I was a big critic of the Booker deal, and I think he’s still overrated, but that’s okay. If I were a Nuggets fan back in ‘09 or whenever Carmelo started making max money, I would have been annoyed by the size of his contract but also acknowledging that he had enormous trade value and was held in high esteem around the league. That’s Booker. I think he probably could have been traded for Jimmy Butler or another similar star due to his age and perceived potential. That is precisely the kind of “overpay” that you can deal with. And of course, the Suns are cashing in on a shitshow of a postseason, and if not for Giannis appearing indestructible, they’d likely be setting the record for biggest blowout Finals in the modern era. And they still could sweep with a +10 MOV anyway.

  313. Everyone who is saying it’s too early to tell on RJ is obviously right, but these second contract max deals make or break a franchise.

    IMO, there’s only 2 situations that warrant a max deal on a players second contract:

    1. he will deliver surplus value

    2. he won’t deliver surplus value but you already have a team capable of winning the title in place and he’s an important piece so it doesn’t matter if you overpay him.

    I think RJ is unlikely to qualify for #1. If we get the players to make #2 a reality, ok. If not, use restricted free agency to our advantage and sign him to a fair deal less than the max.

  314. Is it feasible to sign RJ to a deal lower than the max, given his draft pedigree? If he makes another leap in his improvement… while a non-max deal would be a huge boon to roster construction, I just don’t know if it can happen.

  315. I could see him getting an Oladipo-type deal if he fails to take the leap in either efficiency or volume. If he does both, he’s obviously a max player, which should start around $30M for his eligibility. Best case scenario is something like 4/$80M, but he’d have to unequivocally disappoint over the next two seasons.

  316. If he makes another leap in his improvement…

    I was under the impression we were discussing whether or not to max him at this level.

    If he makes another leap, he’s likely earned a max.

  317. Hubert: that’s the thing, right? If he makes another leap, he’s earned a max. I was under the impression we were discussing whether or not to max him at this level.

    Right now, I’d offer him 4/$80 if he were openly risk-averse and looking for long-term security. I would not offer a max until year 4, contingent on the above.

  318. If you can sign RJ to less than the max or he’s clearly not worth the max, then don’t sign him to the max.

    But generally speaking I don’t think there solid justification to not pay RJ the max as is.

    For all the shit we give that 7’3″ player, he’s probably fine on a max contract if he’s healthy. RJ doesn’t appear to have health issues (knock on all the wood), that’s not the issue.

    For Philly, the issue is 2 max contracts without a true max (1) Simmons & (2) Harris. If it were only Simmons, they’d be fine. Harris was a strange all-in.

    If we don’t sign a max player in 2022, we probably still sign Randle and trade him a couple years in to rebuild around RJ or whatever draftees we have.

    If we do sign Beal, LaVine, KD, whomever, then you max RJ.

    I really don’t know why or how this is a complicated or interesting question. Wait and see. It’s much easier to dump a max contract (however painful) than to acquire a max-value player. When someone has the promise of max-talent, you should go for it and hope it turns out like Jamal Murray.

    With any luck RJ will have 2 straight .590+ TS% seasons and this whole discussion will be moot.

  319. If anyone is curious about how good Randle and RJ look with league average 3pt shooting (.367 3p%) instead of the high-water marks they hit:

    RJ – .521 TS%
    Randle – .550 TS%

    League Avg: .572 TS%

    Discuss.

  320. Yeah it turns out if you take a bunch of baskets that guys actually made, then turn those baskets into misses, they don’t look as good.

    Weird!

  321. 3pt shooting is inherently volatile, all except the absolute best shooters in the league will fail to consistently shoot above 40%.

    I don’t think most people on this board will say RJ and Randle are the best shooters in the league. I don’t know how good they are, but it’s reasonable to expect some regression. I chose league average because it’s the easiest number to plug in.

    I don’t really have an agenda with this, I’m just updating some spreadsheets and thought it was more interesting than speculating about RJ’s extension that’s still 2 years away.

    .
    .
    .

    Also, I updated my Knicks salary cap spreadsheets.

    2021: ~$48M cap space
    2022: ~$47M cap space

    2022 includes $3M draft pick placeholder, Randle’s cap hold ($29.7M), & Mitch’s cap hold ($3.4M). We renounce Knox.

    A 7-9 yr max salary in 2022 will run about $37M (I think), that gives us $10M in commitments to play with for 2022 for Beal, LaVine, Butler, or Kyrie.

    A 10 yr max salary will run about $41M (Durant, Harden, Curry, Kawhi).

    The salaries will be slightly higher if we S&T for the above players, which seems likely if we sign them at all.

    We’d have 13 player slots used for 2022 including draft picks.

  322. I really am not a Devin Booker fan. He seems like an overrated shot taker getting the credit for wins produced by a very strong team. He doesn’t play defense. He isn’t all that efficient for a putative superstar. I’d trade him for a superstar package, if he’d net one, without thinking twice. That’s not to say they would be better without him, he is a key piece. But that’s not a great contract.

    The Suns have executed a remarkable turnaround but adding one of the best point guards of all time was a big chunk and adding Ayton, Bridges and Payne was a pretty sizeable chunk too. And yes, we could have had two of those three.

    Going to say it again, I have no idea what the Knicks should do, but a future where we are built around max contracts to JR and RJ is very unsettling. I really don’t think that will work

  323. I know right, anaheim isn’t so far away, I feel like i need to go watch him play…really glad to see him finally healthy enough to put together some simply amazing stats…

    after the way he started off in mlb, i would’ve just limited him to hitting…good for the angels for not doing exactly that…

    mike trout who?

  324. About the league expansion, which is not in their immediate plans, i know, but…
    “the league could also look at major cities overseas such as London, Montreal and Mexico City”.
    London would be great for us europeans to easily catch one or two games a year, but i don’t think it could work for the league. This team would have to make a transatlantic trip each time they went on the road, and the rest of the league would have to get some free days when it’d be the time to come play in London. I don’t know, but if the expansion is faraway, a team in Europe it’s probably even farther away.

  325. Owen, I really don’t get the Booker dislike, and never did since he got maxed. Last year without CP3 he put up even better numbers and their season ended on a great run in the bubble. He is only 24 years old. He and his contract would be welcome on my team any time. I would bet that CP3 feels the same way.

  326. Owen has a type, and Booker ain’t it. It’s like asking Leonardo DiCaprio why he’s not interested in an older woman like Charlize Theron.

  327. Well Booker’s type is extremely important to winning so suggesting that he’s riding on the coattails of Bridges and Ayton is absurd. If anything it’s the opposite.

  328. I don’t get how a guy with around .600 TS% on 30% or higher usage who passes and rebounds well enough is an eye test guy. I also don’t buy the “ he plays no defense” generalization. But hey, opinions vary!

  329. Today I learned that 27 PPG on .567 TS% is actually 30 PPG on .600 TS%

  330. Booker does pass the eye test as a go to scorer, although a bit erratic and therefore not a top 10 player in the league. But he is the main scorer on a team leading 2:0 in the finals and he’s playing over 40 minutes a game in the postseason, more than anyone else on both finals teams.

    I’m surprised by his mediocre VORP, BPM and WS48. Looking at just the boxscore he’s an impressive 24.1 ppg, 5.4 rebounds and 4.3 assists per 36. I guess the reason his advanced are mediocre is because of an under league average TS, and a bit too many TOs and personal fouls?

  331. What Jowles said.

    I get more of a Rip Hamilton vibe from Booker. Obviously his rep is bigger than that, and maybe he is better than peak Rip, but I can’t think of him as a true superstar.

  332. Remember, Booker is putting up those numbers and playing big minutes with a broken nose too. It may just be “the eye test” but he looks pretty good to me. Ask Lebron and the Lakers how they feel about him, he absolutely destroyed LA in the the first round. I’d take him and that contract on my team right now for sure.

  333. Booker, this season at least, is playing the “innings eater volume scorer” role. League average efficiency but on very high usage. It works for the Suns— they were the #5 offense in the league and Booker is obviously a key part of the offense.

    He was more productive last year though, and I wouldn’t be surprised at all to see him have a monster season where he shoots 3’s efficiently in addition to the rest of his offensive game. On his current contract he’s decent value, it’s the next contract that’s going to be dodgy.

  334. I’m saying all of this while asserting that Booker is worth his max. Whatever the Suns FO has done so far — it worked. The Booker contract, the Chris Paul trade, drafting Ayton over Doncic and trading for Bridges — it all worked.

    Do I think the Suns are here if half the West didn’t die on the vine? Irrelevant. They’re two wins from a chip. Just because I think Booker isn’t worth a max on a Thunder or Rockets roster doesn’t mean he’s not worth it to PHX, who should be pushing all the chips in now.

  335. ***Just because I think Booker isn’t worth a max on a Thunder or Rockets roster doesn’t mean he’s not worth it to PHX, who should be pushing all the chips in now.***

    Yeah, but they signed him to his extension during their 19 win season. They pushed that chip in then, not now. Which, in the context of recent threads, wouldn’t have been a move endorsed here by knickerbloggers.

  336. A bit off topic but I wouldn’t be surprised if the Bucks tied the series over the next two games.

  337. Jack Bauer:
    Remember, Booker is putting up those numbers and playing big minutes with a broken nose too. It may just be “the eye test” but he looks pretty good to me. Ask Lebron and the Lakers how they feel about him, he absolutely destroyed LA in the the first round. I’d take him and that contract on my team right now for sure.

    Seems like the perfect opportunity for everyone to finally once and for all dispense with the idea that the blatantly obvious requires “confirmation” by things like VORP, BPM, and WS48.

    Tails don’t wag dogs and all.

  338. Devin Booker was maxed by a team coming off a season in which he TS%’d 561 and his team had a net rating of last in the league, nearly two per 100 below the team ranked 29th. In the first year of his max, his team tied for 28th in net rating with David Fizdale’s 2018-19 New York Knickerbockers. Not a thing about that max made a lick of doctrinal sense.

  339. Yes, I agree. Which is why I criticized it. And if Chris Paul doesn’t play like early-30s Chris Paul, or gets injured, we’re not having this conversation. The Suns have had incredible injury luck this year. Their strategy carried a lot of “48-win ceiling” risk but they are reaping the rewards right now. I give them credit for being less risk-averse than I would have been. Aside from skipping Doncic for Ayton (which, if the other way around, likely puts them in the Finals anyway), I don’t think there’s much to criticize. I wouldn’t have done most of what they’ve done, and they wouldn’t be two wins from a chip. Good for them.

  340. Yep, nothing to add to the above.

    Ingmarr, it would be pretty interesting if the Bucks blasted back into this thing. I don’t see why they can’t but the narrative is fully behind Phoenix right now.

  341. We’ve gotten used to teams playing in a bubble or in empty arenas where home court didn’t mean much. But years ago, if the home team in a series won the first two games, the series wasn’t considered close to over, it was just getting started.

  342. I have a legend I want to write about Torrey Craig, so I would really like the series to still be going past Tuesday, when I publish it. ;)

  343. Could be. The best Knicks news I’ve seen is a rambling Mark Jackson interview.

  344. Obi and Quickey’s quotes from the USA Select team practices? Earl Monroe thinks CP3 would be a great MSG fit? Another poll? Help us out here, Brian.

  345. I’m too pissed about Quickley getting kicked off the team because of some dumb Hornets player to talk about the U.S. Select team. I guess a poll could work.

  346. I feel like a lineup of Durant, Lillard, Beal, Bam and Tatum should get it done against Nigeria?

    That is a surprising outcome.

  347. I’m too pissed about Quickley getting kicked off the team because of some dumb Hornets player to talk about the U.S. Select team. I guess a poll could work.

    I missed this, I though quik was just sick?

  348. totally random thought, yesterday watched Take Shelter, with fan fave nelson van alden…

    A Beautiful Mind, As Good As It Gets, Joker are some of my favorite films which address mental illness…

    Charly has always stuck with me…

    Take Shelter and nelson’s performance in particular were pretty amazing…

  349. The Honorable Cock Jowles:
    Today I learned that 27 PPG on .567 TS% is actually 30 PPG on .600 TS%

    Dude, easy on the glaucoma meds.

    1) In 2019-20, Devin Booker’s TS% was .618. In 2020-21, it was .587. Last I checked, that averages out to over .600. If you want to throw in the year before, it’s in the high .590’s.

    2) I wrote usage, not PPG. In three straight years, he’s shot at a .584 TS% at over a 30% Usage. U-S-A-G-E. Not PPG.

    My guess is that the list of players who averaged 27 PPG on a 30+% usage at a TS% of above .590 playing over 2200 minutes in their age 22,23,and 24 seasons is really short.

    The Suns hit a fucking grand slam in maxing Booker. He is only going to get better. By 2023-24, $35.9 mill is going to be a steal. Oh wait, it’s $39.57 million. I wouldn’t want to embellish.

  350. E, all merc’d out:
    Devin Booker was maxed by a team coming off a season in which he TS%’d 561 and his team had a net rating oflast in the league, nearly two per 100 below the team ranked 29th.In the first year of his max, his team tied for 28th in net rating with David Fizdale’s 2018-19 New York Knickerbockers.Not a thing about that max made a lick of doctrinal sense.

    Except that he’s now a two-time all star who could easily be traded for a king’s ransom on that max contract. You are all about valuation until it doesn’t suit your typically bullshit narrative. Any moron would understand that he wasn’t maxed with the expectation that he would earn it in the first year…his age 23 season…it was an investment in his potential as a player. Clearly an investment you wouldn’t have made, and in hindsight would have been run out of the league as a laughingstock for not making.

  351. I don’t think this is the strongest USA team ever, but losing to Nigeria??? Even in an exhibition we should blow them out. Must’ve hit the clubs really hard the night before.

  352. When the US loses in basketball to other countries, my recollection is that the other countries play team basketball and we don’t. The US team really hasn’t had much time playing together. They need it.

  353. @TommyBeer
    Luca Vildoza finished with 11 points (on 3-of-9 shooting) and 2 assists in 9 mins in Argentina’s loss to Australia

    Here he is knocking one down from Curry range.

  354. But Alan, will he play in the playoffs? LOLOL
    I think Vildoza is a prospect like Langston Galloway (i’m not saying the end result will be the same), he seems to be good enough to stick in the league for sure, but can he do more than that? That’s what we will find out in this coming season.

  355. I missed this, I though quik was just sick?

    He’s a close contact of one of the Hornets players who got COVID, so they’re just sending all three home (I’ll admit, it’s just easier to do that).

  356. The Honorable Cock Jowles:
    Yes, I agree. Which is why I criticized it. And if Chris Paul doesn’t play like early-30s Chris Paul, or gets injured, we’re not having this conversation. The Suns have had incredible injury luck this year. Their strategy carried a lot of “48-win ceiling” risk but they are reaping the rewards right now. I give them credit for being less risk-averse than I would have been. Aside from skipping Doncic for Ayton (which, if the other way around, likely puts them in the Finals anyway), I don’t think there’s much to criticize. I wouldn’t have done most of what they’ve done, and they wouldn’t be two wins from a chip. Good for them.

    So when you’re dead wrong, just play the “well, I was actually right but incredible luck intervened” card. Right.

  357. I like that Vildoza just pulls up into a regular shooting motion from half court, lol none of that heave stuff

  358. Seems like Vildoza isn’t playing PG, which is disappointing… I desperately want more Vildoza content

  359. Early Bird: Seems like Vildoza isn’t playing PG, which is disappointing… I desperately want more Vildoza content

    Argentina has Campazzo, who’s the more established point guard (and reportedly more of a pure playmaker than Vildoza, who may be a combo guard type like IQ).

  360. “Viladoza, who may be a combo guard type like IQ”

    And the never ending search for a starting NBA caliber point guard continues for your New York Knicks…..

    The US team should be able to beat Nigeria blind folded – straight up embarrassing

  361. @Alan,

    I know, but still hoped to see him clock minutes there as the backup. Instead it seems to have gone to Nicolas Brussino who plays in the Spanish League too.

    Can’t complain about a solid SG for $3M, but a PG for $3M is way more of a steal. Not that he won’t be a good PG, I’m just impatient with the evidence and it may have some minor implications for the draft and FA.

  362. wow, what a day to have some sports on in the background…wimbledon mens, euro final, yanks-astros, later tonight game 3 of the finals…and, shit: frank plays today???

    oh hell no, that’s just too much of an incentive not to leave the house, not that i planned to make it further than watering out in the patio and maybe throwing out the garbage…still :)

    plus it’s still like a billion degrees outside, skins still peeling from a couple of weeks ago…

    hands down quote of the day/weekend/year/whatever – dustin poirier after his bout with mcgregor, wherein this guy is sitting there with his back against the cage getting his broken leg splinted up, all the while talking shit about dustin’s wife:

    image of the year, bravo missus poirier, it’s a little grainy, they’ll be something better up later…

    anyways this is some cajun wisdom for ya:
    “But, you know, this guy is a dirtbag. Karma is not a bitch, she’s a mirror, and this guy said the wrong shit.”

  363. well, that was a rough few minutes if you were rooting for the yanks and england…

  364. geo:
    well, that was a rough few minutes if you were rooting for the yanks and england…

    Make it an hour and you can throw the Mets in there too…

  365. I stopped even paying attention to the Yankee game…

    I dont really have a dog in the UEFA game, but that last save by England’s goalkeeper had me on the edge of my seat and finally starting to root for England. Boy was the last PK a letdown.

  366. Rough loss for the Mets today but a good day for Mets fans overall as Kumar Rocker fell to their lap at #10. This is a guy who would have been consensus #1 overall as a sophomore, had a few rough games as a junior and slipped, but an elite talent. I love his arsenal of stuff– fastball with lots of late movement, wipeout slider that grades as a 70 pitch, looping 2200 RPM curveball with filthy break. Changeup needs a little work but he’s an absolute horse at 6’5″, 250.

    Rocker’s flaws have gotten nitpicked a lot, but he has mostly blown away hitters in college. I’m psyched.

  367. JK47:
    Rough loss for the Mets today but a good day for Mets fans overall as Kumar Rocker fell to their lap at #10. This is a guy who would have been consensus #1 overall as a sophomore, had a few rough games as a junior and slipped, but an elite talent. I love his arsenal of stuff– fastball with lots of late movement, wipeout slider that grades as a 70 pitch, looping 2200 RPM curveball with filthy break. Changeup needs a little work but he’s an absolute horse at 6’5?, 250.

    Rocker’s flaws have gotten nitpicked a lot, but he has mostly blown away hitters in college. I’m psyched.

    Rocker? Will he ride the subway?

  368. Yeesh. I just came across a Kevin Knox workout with Jahii Carson at Elijah Knox’s camp.

    Yup. He’s not gonna be on the roster next season. Kid just doesn’t have it

    Jumper still looks sweet. But when I say he doesn’t have it, I don’t mean exactly what we’ve seen on the court as a Knick. I mean he has no earthly idea to do with the ball in his hands. More specifically, he looks like he can’t find a way to apply whatever training he goes through. Mid move he just kinda looks confused. Seems like..I dunno..he can’t break out of that being used to the HS kid who’s too tall and athletic for the local competition to handle mode. If that makes sense. And that’s troubling to see after a year under Coach Cal and 3 years in the NBA. I think the kid’s close to fried. If he is on the team this coming season, he better focus on being a good to great defender and learning how to move off ball to get his shot off. Study the off ball movements of guys like Joe Harris, Reggie Miller, Steph Curry, and Kyle Korver. That jumper of his can be a helluva weapon, but it’s nothing if he can’t find a way to use it. I think he may be a bigger letdown than Ntilikina..which isn’t really too much of a difference at this point

  369. So when you’re dead wrong, just play the “well, I was actually right but incredible luck intervened” card. Right

    Lakers lose AD halfway through series up 2-1. Not luck.

    Nuggets had lost their own Devin Booker well before the playoffs. Not luck.

    Clippers lost Kawhi mere games before the WCF. Chris Paul missed his first two non-DNPCD games of the season and returns perfectly healthy. Not luck.

    I’d have called the Giannis injury a superfecta had he not been built of adamantium. No luck to be seen here, none at all!

  370. Totes McGoats as Totes McGoats:
    Yeesh. I just came across a Kevin Knox workout with Jahii Carson at Elijah Knox’s camp.

    Yup. He’s not gonna be on the roster next season. Kid just doesn’t have it

    Jumper still looks sweet. But when I say he doesn’t have it, I don’t mean exactly what we’ve seen on the court as a Knick. I mean he has no earthly idea to do with the ball in his hands. More specifically,he looks like he can’t find a way to apply whatever training he goes through. Mid move he just kinda looks confused. Seems like..I dunno..he can’t break out of that being used to the HS kid who’s too tall and athletic for the local competition to handle mode. If that makes sense. And that’s troubling to see after a year under Coach Cal and 3 years in the NBA. I think the kid’s close to fried. If he is on the team this coming season, he better focus on being a good to great defender and learning how to move off ball to get his shot off. Study the off ball movements of guys like Joe Harris, Reggie Miller, Steph Curry,and Kyle Korver. That jumper of his can be a helluva weapon, but it’s nothing if he can’t find a way to use it. I think he may be a bigger letdown than Ntilikina..which isn’t really too much of a difference at this point

    I think they do him a disservice putting him in a clip with Jahii, who looks about a foot shorter than Knox. Jahii needs to be incredibly fast with the ball to play professional ball at any level (idk who he is, but I assume he does). It makes Knox look even slower by comparison.

    Knox is 6’7″, he doesn’t need to be fast with the ball in his hands. He needs to shoot the 3 and use his long stride to attack closeouts… at this point everything else is gravy.

    He does look godawful tho

  371. ***Lakers lose AD halfway through series up 2-1. Not luck.

    Nuggets had lost their own Devin Booker well before the playoffs. Not luck.

    Clippers lost Kawhi mere games before the WCF. Chris Paul missed his first two non-DNPCD games of the season and returns perfectly healthy. Not luck.***

    This is kind of a low-hanging fruit argument to make, and rather easy to refute. 1) AD getting hurt doesn’t rely on luck as it happens almost every year; 2) the Nuggets went 13-5 following Murray’s injury, still had the reigning MVP at full strength, and had just defeated a fully healthy Blazers team 4-2. Yet Phoenix swept them and none of the games were even close. Not luck; 3) The Kawhi Clippers weren’t exactly dominating the playoffs. They’d lost three home games in the first round against a team much worse than the Suns, and were very hot-and-cold against the Jazz. It certainly didn’t hurt the Suns that Kawhi didn’t play, at the same time, Paul missed those two games that the Suns won anyway (thanks to Booker), and when Paul came back he actually played very badly, shooting 19-60 over three games.

    It’s not like the Suns are some #8 seed that got hot and got a bunch of lucky bounces to win games they shouldn’t have. They had the best record in the league, and stayed fully healthy. It’s really hard to diminish their path to the finals as “luck”.

  372. I spent like half this thread saying the Suns did some risky roster shit that totally worked out for them this year and I’m being accused of calling their Finals run luck. I just don’t get the characterization.

  373. The suns had the second best record in the NBA. They had the best road record in the NBA. The Lakers series was a bit weird but there isnt anything historically flukey about them being in the finals

  374. I read the following article at ESPN. It was good and made me think there are a lot of possibilities in this draft. Note that I am not an insider but went through the Singapore ESPN site to read it.

    https://www.espn.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/31770784/big-nba-draft-2021-questions-no-1-locked-looking-trade

    I am no expert on the draft, but there are people on this board who study the draft a lot. What do you think of Keon Johnson? Apparently NBA opinions are all over the map with him. They cited him as the most controversial player in the draft. He’s clearly a project but the Knicks have enough picks they can afford picking a player like that. He is intriguing to me so I’d like to hear other peoples opinions.

  375. I really don’t know if Knox is a bigger disappointment than Ntilikina. I think it depends on who’s doing the disappointing. Everyone at Knickerblogger hated the Knox pick so for them he’s actually performing at expectations which is clearly different from disappointing. On the other hand, many here had hopes for Ntilikina so on this board Ntilikina is the bigger disappointment. But Knox was actually drafted higher than Ntilikina and gotten fewer minutes to play, so I think for many outside of Knickerblogger he is the bigger disappointment.

  376. Knox is more disappointing if only because every other viable option at that draft spot has excelled in the league. Mikal, SGA, and even Miles Bridges (whom I hated almost as much as Knox) have been excellent and were the 3 other most cited options. Oh, and of course there’s Michael Porter Jr who somehow fell to 14.

    But yeah, Knox has lived up to my expectations of him being awful. Frank has completely underwhelmed my expectations of him.

  377. suns had the easiest road to the finals since i don’t know when… but it’s not very often that you get to face the opposing team every round without their best.. or their second best… players… they were good in the regular season… and there’s no denying that …but they were the benefactors of some real injury luck in every round that probably hasn’t happened before… it takes some real contorting of the events to deny that happened and that it didn’t impact their Finals run…

  378. What do you think of Keon Johnson?

    he’s a real athlete that picked up basketball later than most (~high school)… and because of that some think that there’s a lot of upside…

    i’m a bit neutral on the upside part.. he’s solid as a player right now and because of his age he does have decent upside…. he’s a solid prospect… probably slightly lesser grade than justise winslow .. both had questions about their shooting.. both had good playmaking chops… both had great defense… keon’s a better athlete.. .winslow better scoring ability…

    he shouldn’t be too controversial… he’s a solid player with a diverse skillset …. and in this draft you can rank him anywhere starting from 6 or 7 to about 16 … but that goes for about everyone else in that range also….

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