“Remember How Cool That Game 2 Win Over the Hawks Was? Then Boy, Do I Have Good News For You” – The Knicks’ 2021 Offseason

Leon Rose has looked at the Knicks’ situation going forward and has decreed, “Eh, this is fine.”

With the $52-54 million in available cap space, Rose decided to bring the band back together again long term.

Last year, during the season, we often discussed one of the problematic aspects of the strong Knick play in the 2020-21 season, which was that a lot of the Knicks’ success was derived from veterans who were going to be free agents and that they all played well enough that they were likely looking at offers of three years on the open market at around the mid-level (which is roughly $10 million), except for MVP vote-getter and Sixth Man of the Year finalist, Derrick Rose, who probably had a slightly higher financial outlook.

We discussed how that was problematic because if you took those guys away and tried to replace them with short-term veterans, the team would likely take a noticeable step back in 2021-22, but if you gave them all market rate deals, you’d be locking yourself into a team that, in the end, was likely more like the #6 seed than the #4 seed (in a full 82-game season, the Knicks likely finish #6) and that was with the Boston Celtics having a bizarrely injury plagued season and the Toronto Raptors also having a snakebit season, as well.

Realistically, just bringing back the same team would likely not get the Knicks back into contention in 2021-22, but it would lock them into contracts that could make it more difficult to improve the team in the future.

That was the concern during the season and we discussed it a lot, that the best case for the team long term might actually be getting nominally worse in 2021-22 to set it up better going forward.

Leon Rose, though, decided to run it back, giving market rate three-year deals to Nerlens Noel, Alec Burks and Derrick Rose, and replacing Reggie Bullock (the team’s best perimeter defender) with scoring specialist, Evan Fournier, who will make $18 million a year over three years (plus a fourth club option year. Those are always nice).

The Knicks’ current cap space is interesting. They have about $3.5 million left to spend plus the room exception of $5 million. This is because Derrick Rose’s contract likely starts at $13.3 million while his cap hold is a little under $10 million. So the Knicks can spend that $3.5 million and then go over the cap to sign Rose, and then also use the room exception.

That’s not a lot of money, of course, so the significant free agent signings for the Knicks have almost certainly already been made, but it’s something.

There has been some talk about how “tradeable” these contracts are, but as I wrote yesterday, I’m not even saying that you can’t trade Burks at 3 years/$30 million or Noel at similar money or even Fournier at 3 years/$54 million (with a fourth year team option). I am saying that…so what? What good does that do you that you could later trade them? I think we can all agree that if you’re aspiring to be a good team, “Ability to dump player if need be” is not really high on the list of pros about a signing. Now, if the question is “Can you trade them for an even better player?” then I would say, “I don’t believe so, no.” You’re not packaging a bunch of decent older players making market rate for a star.

“Ability to trade for a pick” is a worthwhile pro if you’re the Knicks of two years ago, but now, if Burks is playing well enough for a team to want him, why would the Knicks be trading him? And if he’s playing poorly enough that the Knicks want to trade him, why would any team want him? That’s the problem with signing decent veterans to market value contracts. When they’re joining a good team, it makes sense, because the other star players are the ones who drive the engine, so you can pay Brook Lopez the market rate because you already have Giannis and Middleton (or young teams like the Hawks who added market rate free agents to their impressive young core), but otherwise, you’re unlikely to be building on anything with guys like these signed to long-term, market rate deals.

We’ve already seeing this with Rose trying to change the narrative to this being the Knicks “playing for the 2024 free agency,” which we all know is madness, as no one, Leon Rose included, has any idea who in the world is going to be available in 2024. No one “plans for the free agency in three years” like this. It isn’t a thing. It’s just a platitude designed to give cover for Rose failing at what he first wanted to do with this team (which we now know was to sign Chris Paul to come here, but the Knicks were outbid by Paul’s current team, who could go to a fourth year that the Knicks could not). Clearly, Rose even knew that adding a point guard was a key thing for the Knicks this offseason, but after he didn’t get the one he wanted, he just punted on it (sound familiar?).

Now, with all of this being said, clearly, at the very least, the Knicks have maintained a playoff contender with these moves. If you are a fan who just wants to see the Knicks win enough games to make the playoffs, then these moves are good for you. As noted, they basically brought the band together that was an easy playoff team, so even with the other teams in the Eastern Conference likely improving, this will likely be a playoff team in 2021-22 again.

Plus, there’s always the chance that RJ Barrett or Immanuel Quickley (or even Mitchell Robinson) makes a leap in 2021-22, or perhaps one of the Knick rookies surprises. Or Luca Vildoza comes over and plays like he belongs. There is certainly some upside about the Knicks, it’s just that none of that upside came in the form of the $53 million that they just spent on free agency, and that’s not a good thing.

But if all you really want to see is a Knick team that will be competitive every game and very likely will make it to the playoffs, then these moves do achieve that, as well, and likely will give us a few more years of decent basketball, which is a huge step up from decades of awful basketball.

Now, as part of our all-poll content, I will give two poll options. One glass half-full and the other, half-empty.

Which Knick free agent signing was your favorite deal?

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What was your least favorite Knick signing this offseason?

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476 thoughts to ““Remember How Cool That Game 2 Win Over the Hawks Was? Then Boy, Do I Have Good News For You” – The Knicks’ 2021 Offseason”

  1. copy pasted from the previous thread:

    I guess Rose’s plan to trade for a disgruntled superstar is to… offer a package of draft picks and then throw in vets to match salary…? I don’t see that enticing anyone unless said superstar is dead set on going to NY and tells his team, “take the Knicks’ deal, or I pull a Vince Carter and quit on the team.”

    The margin is so narrow for such a thing to happen.

    Let me put my Macri hat on and posit this: what if Rose’s strategy is to leverage the irrational optimism of Knicks fans and the media attention a decent Knicks team will get in order to trick superstars into coming here? I call it the “Potemkin Village Contender” strategy.

    Looking at r/nba to gauge the average fan’s reaction, and pretty much every Knicks fan and even fans of other teams like what the Knicks did. They’re excited to run it back plus Fournier. They think securing the vets on 3 year market rate deals makes them moveable pieces. People eat it up with a spoon when Leon Rose makes low-upside marginal improvements. So maybe someone like Damian Lillard won’t automatically rule out NY.

    That makes this the formula: The Knicks being decent + having the assets to make it work on the NBA Trade Machine + irrational fan & media hype + ???? = superstar forces a trade to NY.

    That’s all I got. My head hurts now. I’m taking off the Macri hat.

    Fuck.

  2. I’m honestly baffled and underwhelmed by the totality of this (early stage but what else should be expect to do?) offseason.

    It’s not disastrous. It’s just so meh that, well, unless RJ become a full-fledged star, which means surpassing Randle’s 2020-21 production, we’re pretty much guaranteed to be kinda mediocre for the next year and a half at least. I mean, it could be worse, but I don’t understand the rationale behind at least half of their moves.

  3. Hey, I got some bitchin’ iPhone video of the final possession of Game 2!

  4. Doug Chu: Looking at r/nba to gauge the average fan’s reaction, and pretty much every Knicks fan and even fans of other teams like what the Knicks did. They’re excited to run it back plus Fournier. They think securing the vets on 3 year market rate deals makes them moveable pieces. People eat it up with a spoon when Leon Rose makes low-upside marginal improvements. So maybe someone like Damian Lillard won’t automatically rule out NY.

    As a GM, you are trying to get on the short list of teams stars want to play for. You can’t really trade for players (or keep them if you already have them) if they are going to be sour and/or won’t re-sign with you. The Knicks are more likely to be on that short list than they were a year ago and are more likely to stay on it with Rose, Burks, Noel, and Fournier.

  5. Other than Chris Paul and Derrick Rose, one wonders whether Leon Rose even knows the identity of the other available point guards.

    EDIT: Oops — Elfrid Payton, too. Sorry, Leon.

  6. I have no problem with Burks over Bullock. Bullock is a better defender but Burks is much more versatile on offense. Bullock’s entire offensive game was to catch and shoot 3’s, whereas Burks showed the ability to create off the dribble and was also incredibly clutch.

    I’ll for sure miss Reggie and his crazy hairdo, but Burks was really solid for us last season and I don’t think we’re gonna see a huge drop off this year.

  7. The “favorite deal” poll could use a None of the above option. Likewise, an All of the above for the “least favorite” one.

  8. reposted re: Derrick Rose, putting his character issues aside, right now he is essentially Devonte Graham, except better in nearly every measurable area. Rose reinvented his game, now as a below the rim player with a great mid-range game and solid from 3 with a lower usage and an outstanding AST/TOV ratio. He was almost a 50-40-90 guy for us, and he was our best player in the playoffs.

    Graham is not a kid, he’ 26 years old and has never had a FG% higher than 38%…he’s terrible from 2 and at 26 I doubt it will get much better. He tops out at 37.5% from 3 at a very high rate. He’s a statistical negative on D. So the excitement with him is more new car smell than anything else.

  9. Didn’t vote in the first poll because I didn’t like any of the signings, voted Rose as the worst deal because of age/durability concerns.

  10. Thoughts so far:
    1. D Rose worries me. I’m glad he’s back, but unless we make a trade for a PG- he starts. And all I can see is him limping off the floor after the Atlanta series. I do wanna see Quickley, McBride, and Vildoza get some run- but this is a huge gamble on Thibs trusting some combination of those 3 to spell Rose.
    2. All of the deals we made are super tradeable even if those guys play the exact same way they played last season. So no worries there. If this is our entire postseason, then it’s shaping up to have Burks and Quickley lead the 2nd unit, with Grimes filling Quickley’s role from last season. I am very interested in seeing what a 2nd unit of Quickley/Grimes/Burks/Obi/Noel looks like. If Mitch is healthy, he beats out Noel for the starting job and they most likely split the minutes evenly.
    3. If McBride outplays Vildoza in SL and early preseason, Vildoza is cut or traded. Knox will also be moved unless he averages 30 in SL. No way we keep him as RJ/Burks insurance. However, if he looks improved, I can see him taking backup SF minutes and leaving the rookie guards for mop-up duty in year 1.
    4. I hope we bring back Taj and Sims makes the roster as our big man insurance. We can’t trust either C to stay healthy.
    5. I have no earthy clue what the Lakers and Celtics are doing. Especially the Celtics. The Lakers probably get a pass for signing the Voltaren Posse because playing with LeBron makes it easier. They just need shooting for theost part. But man that team is old! And I cannot believe the C’s gave up Moses Brown to get Richardson.
    6. I hate to say this..but if we had this projected lineup last season..Elfrid would have been ok at PG

  11. DRed:
    Didn’t vote in the first poll because I didn’t like any of the signings, voted Rose as the worst deal because of age/durability concerns.

    Same here.
    I have a “less disliked” signing, but not a “favorite” and this time it’s not a meaningless difference…

    As a whole I feel numb, more in the “it is what it is” than in the angry camp (but 3YR/43M for Rose is def annoying).

  12. Re: trading for a superstar, the goal should be to create a situation where the cupboard isn’t bare post-trade. Why would Lillard want to come to a team that traded a boatload of assets to get him and had a capped out second-tier team left? That’s the situation he would have just left!

    So a package of one or two of the vet 3-year guys, one or two IQ’s and Mitch’s, and a billion draft picks leaves you with a possible contender, or at least you can make that argument. I, for one, hope we don’t do that but it is a signing the guys we did to the deals we did and stockpiling 1sts and 2nds is a reasonable path if that’s what you want to do.

  13. I voted Noel for best, Burks for worst. Neither are by any big margin.

    As for the team itself, I feel it is generally better. 9 players are back from the roster as it stood at the end of the season. I haven’t done any deep research yet, but I can’t remember the last time that the Knicks brought back that many players. When you create a great foundation it’s smart to build on it rather than demolish it and start over. I expect RJ, IQ and Obi to make big jumps. Grimes looks like a legit 3&D guy. We forget that Vildoza and McBride are point guards.

    We need to add a big, big body to handle thug centers. Of course, Taj is always a possibility.

  14. PG: Rose, Vildoza, McBride (TBD)
    SG: Fournier, IQ, Grimes
    SF: RJ, Burks, Knox
    PF: Randle, Obi, (Simms 2-Way)
    C: Mitch, Nerlens, (Taj), (Sims 2-Way)

    Taj is coming for sure…the Pride of Ft. Greene. Assuming a low-cost PG to fill out the roster, this is our team, right?

  15. Well, the Knicks were 24-11 with Rose once they traded for him. They were 11-14 before trading for him. So it’s not surprising they wanted him back.

    Now they have a positive offensive contributor at every position (except maybe RJ). Idk maybe the defense will suffer without Bullock, but it’s probably worth it.

    I still think this is a good team albeit with a hard ceiling. That said, a star demanding a trade to NY is probably the most likely way we will ever get a star (remember Melo? lol) Maybe Leon has some intel in that regard. And I do think a big part of these signings is PR with the players… showing that “things will work out for you if you come to the Knicks.” That even goes for them trying to mend fences with Melo.

    I’m not all torn up about this. It’s not nearly as bad as signing Noah or the Melo trade. I still think the mismanaged 19th pick is the worst part, but I really like our rookies.

    And I’m not trying to be team optimist here, I just don’t think anything is that catastrophic.

    Btw I think they can still have close to $6 mil to spend on another player if Rose delays his signing. That could be useful.

  16. Taj is coming for sure…the Pride of Ft. Greene. Assuming a low-cost PG to fill out the roster, this is our team, right?

    Most likely, yes. The fascinating thing is what if they use the room on Melo?

  17. Btw I think they can still have close to $6 mil to spend on another player if Rose delays his signing. That could be useful.

    I think it depends on how much cap space they had to begin with it. It’s amusingly vague. If they had $54 million to start with, then yes, they could get up to $5.5 million, but I think they might have started with $52 million, so they’d only have $3.5 million to spend.

    Assuming $54 million, it’d be:

    Fournier – $18
    Burks – $10
    Noel – $10.5
    Rose – $10 (cap hold)

    So that’s $48.5 million. So it just depends on how much they started with.

  18. Repost:

    I’ve been thinking about this off-season and our management’s moves and I have come up with a new perspective. When say, the Dallas Mavericks, have their off season and two of their big moves are to re-sign Tim Hardaway and to sign Reggie Bullock along with keeping their draft pick, we don’t look at their management and think “ what are they doing, they should have done more”. We think did they make moves that added what they needed to improve. Why do we think this? Because we think of them as a good team. They finished fifth in their conference and made the first round of the playoffs. But when the Knicks re-sign some players and sign a useful free agent to a useful contract, we have anguish. We don’t think of our team as a good team even though we finished fourth in our conference and played a first round playoff series. We think it needs major surgery. But Knicks management does think of the Knicks as a good team. And they have reason to think so. So it’s not some odd behavior on their part that they kept the team mostly together and tried to make incremental improvements. It’s what decent teams like Toronto or San Antonio or Dallas often do in the off season.

  19. Brian Cronin: Most likely, yes. The fascinating thing is what if they use the room on Melo?

    I think the social media hype would be incredible, frankly. People would latch onto the redemption narrative and Melo’s tenure in NY would be turned into hagiography. Casual fans tend to view the Knicks trading Melo to OKC as a sordid end to things. This would give a lot of fans the kind of storybook ending they want.

    If, as ess-dog said, part of Leon Rose’s goal is to rehabilitate the Knicks as a star-friendly franchise, bringing back Melo could actually go a long way.

  20. It’s possible they want to stay slightly below the cap for whatever reason, cap management per se has been a strength, so sure, they could do something. But they could just fill out the remaining roster spots with Taj and another Vet’s min guy (Melo?)

  21. These moves are incredibly meh, but I am not sure what else we could have done. Lonzo strikes me as the only missed opportunity. Lonzo aside, once we struck out on Lowry and Paul, the options were (1) run the team back or (2) bring in some other guys on one year deals. I don’t really see what the latter option does for us, beyond preserving 2022 cap flexibility that would be used to… bring back more guys on one year deals. It is disappointing given that there seemed to be some signals we would make a big move, but ultimately I am fine with running it back. One positive is that it seems like we are giving IQ and RJ room to grow. Our ceiling now depends on the growth of our young players, but didn’t it always?

  22. According to Begley, details of the Rose deal are still being worked out. Hopefully one of those details is for a team option in year 3. While I’m not upset with the deal even for a guaranteed 3 years, it was my choice for least favorite largely because of the 3rd year.

  23. Knick fan not in NJ:
    Repost:

    I’ve been thinking about this off-season and our management’s moves and I have come up with a new perspective. When say, the Dallas Mavericks, have their off season and two of their big moves are to re-sign Tim Hardaway and to sign Reggie Bullock along with keeping their draft pick, we don’t look at their management and think “ what are they doing, they should have done more”. We think did they make moves that added what they needed to improve. Why do we think this? Because we think of them as a good team. They finished fifth in their conference and made the first round of the playoffs. But when the Knicks re-sign some players and sign a useful free agent to a useful contract, we have anguish. We don’t think of our team as a good team even though we finished fourth in our conference and played a first round playoff series…

    I’m also disappointed that the Knicks didn’t make any moves that had high upside. Even if having a worse record isn’t an option and consequently renting out cap space for future assets gets ruled out, there’s still more dynamic moves to make. There wasn’t targeting of undervalued young players that could outplay their contracts. All the new FA signings are known quantities. I’m like “OK FINE I GUESS.”

  24. If the Knicks brought back Melo as a mascot who played in blowouts that would be fine I suppose but a bit of a waste of a roster spot. If they brought him back with any intention of playing him in competitive games that would be extremely stupid.

  25. Having had an evening to sleep on it, my feeling is more or less “meh”.

    The goal for this off season was to improve the team enough to make the playoffs again, try to get into the second round, and have some upside, all while keeping some flexibility.

    1. Move up in the draft.

    2. Free agency.

    3. Trade

    The kind of players I had in mind for free agency/trade were Ball, Sexton, Turner, Payne and others that would be an upgrade and young enough to improve.

    However, these things are a two-way street. The other guy (or team in the case of a trade) has to cooperate.

    The cost to move up in the draft was too high.

    The cost for Turner was probably too high.

    Payne probably was willing to take less to stay with the Suns and compete for a title again.

    I’m not sure why they didn’t pursue Ball harder. That may be a mistake, but we don’t know the details.

    Sexton is still out there for a trade, but again the cost matters.

    Once all the best targets were gone, the choice was to bring back the same players and upgrade where possible or take a major step bank and tank again. They weren’t going to tank. Forgetaboutit! So they brought back Noel, Burks, and Rose and upgraded Bullock with Fournier. Fournier is exactly the kind of player they were looking for. He’s a floor spacing scorer that can make plays.

    The major thing to complaint is the contracts are 3 years. That locks us out of free agency for a few years. It limits us to trades and the draft. We are looking at a combination of picks and players in a trade and internal development to improve.

    Most likely our players had similar offers out there and we didn’t have a choice other than to sign them for 3 year or take a step back (forgetaboutit). The only deal I hate is Rose because at his age with his injury risk and minute restrictions it’s just BAD. That one is probably on Thibs.

  26. I voted Noel for best, Burks for worst. Neither are by any big margin.

    Ha, I voted the exact opposite.

  27. Now punting on the 19th pick sticks in my craw more. If our upside is limited to our draftees improving, why not take a shot at a raw project player at 19?

  28. DRed:
    If the Knicks brought back Melo as a mascot who played in blowouts that would be fine I suppose but a bit of a waste of a roster spot.If they brought him back with any intention of playing him in competitive games that would be extremely stupid.

    I think the idea of bringing Melo back isn’t just to make the fans feel good, but as a reputation-laundering gesture to the league’s stars. You never know who idolizes Melo, I guess.

  29. That makes this the formula: The Knicks being decent + having the assets to make it work on the NBA Trade Machine + irrational fan & media hype + ???? = superstar forces a trade to NY.

    it’s not going to make sense because the city will turn on the team once the novelty of first round exits wears off… or god forbid we miss the playoffs next year…. we’ve been through this rodeo before where there’s an expiration date on the squad… but this one is neither as talented and probably barely as much longevity so i imagine it will be a short honeymoon…

    however.. this team will basically live and die with the development of RJ and he’ll keep the attention of the city throughout his career (hopefully).. Randle hopefully also and it’ll be their play that will attract a star…. everybody else has and always will be window dressing….

  30. Z-man:
    According to Begley, details of the Rose deal are still being worked out. Hopefully one of those details is for a team option in year 3. While I’m not upset with the deal even for a guaranteed 3 years, it was my choice for least favorite largely because of the 3rd year.

    There was some controversy over whether it could be tweaked so it didn’t use cap space. Those cap rules are over my head (where I would like them to stay forever). That’s someone else’s job. If that’s not possible because the contract is too big, then hopefully the 3rd year is a NY option. That would ease my pain over that deal a little.

  31. They should have gotten younger and raised their ceiling, and there were all manner of ways they could have done it, but they didn’t because Thibs now has de facto personnel control.

    This truly is the Thibs nightmare — overachieving year one in flukish circumstances; playoff appearance and blowout (*); uses year one illusory overachievement to littlefinger his way into personnel control with a front office led by a neophyte who’s in over his head; old, low-ceiling, capped-out roster based a lot on weird Thibs loyalty ensues.

    Deny and rationalize as you will (**), but that’s exactly what’s happened. The bill has now come due. Looking back a year, I would not have hired Thibs. The costs outweigh the benefits.

    (*) Capped off by Thibs, in vintage, surpassingly on-script, Thibsian fashion, running the aging PG he can’t quit into the ground. The PG they just resigned for three years and $43 million.

    (**) I mean, look, I understand the human desire to be optimistic and positive, even if it’s just for positivity’s sake. That’s a real thing and it’s a perfectly justifiable thing and many people are wired that way and this is, after all, just sports.

  32. I like bringing all three back. We can quibble about the length and size.
    But I think this was all about Quickley, RJ and Mitch (and to a certain degree Randle, who choked in the playoffs) taking a step up.
    Those four guys actually could become one hell of a core. I know this is an upside argument, but last year was a pretty good step for all but Mitch, who was injured a lot. I hope he spent a lot of time with the weights.

    But Nerlens was a very good back up center, Rose was not just a good player, but he was a good mentor to other players, and RJ can be something.
    I think this was Leon saying, I have my core guys. If they step up this is a top four team.
    I suffer from Knicks optimism so this may be very hopeful thinking, but I think Leon is making a bet that these solid vets coupled with up and coming youth could take a step up in the East.

  33. Once all the best targets were gone, the choice was to bring back the same players and upgrade where possible or take a major step bank and tank again.

    I think this is the major mental block from strat.. and this FO for that matter…

    even in bringing the band back and adding what you think is an upgraded piece… doesn’t make us automatically ‘better’…. on paper and in theory you would think it does… but give some age based depreciation to some players… sprinkle in some regression… dash in some less opp 3pt luck… and you bringing back the same team could in fact mean that we are taking a step back all in itself….

    the phoenix suns aren’t going to be entitled to another finals run just because they bring the same team back.. same with the bucks… it likely gets harder next year if some health returns to some teams…. some teams got better… we’re largely in the same boat as everyone else…

    that’s why improving for the next year…. with instead a sustainable roster for the long term… could’ve in fact kept the win total roughly the same while building something sustainable…. and that involves taking some risk…. but bringing back the same dudes involve taking risk also.. doing nothing involves the most risk of all and that’s where we’re at….

  34. @NYPost_Berman
    Told PG Spencer Dinwiddie didn’t consider Knicks “a fit”. Not sure because of Thibodeau or his flamboyance doesn’t match James Dolan’s media policy.

  35. however.. this team will basically live and die with the development of RJ

    It’s more than just RJ.

    It’s RJ, Mitch, Obi, Quick, and their 2 new draft picks. It’s also not just “do they become all stars”. It’s do they improve enough to become very attractive to another team as part of a deal to upgrade another position.

    For example, let’s say Obi turns himself into a legitimate starter on a very good team. We have Randle and Obi. One of them becomes expendable in a trade. If you include a pick or two maybe you can find a serious upgrade at PG. It’s the same with Quick and Mitch. We have Noel. So we don’t really need Mitch depending on health and development. That makes Mitch and picks available for a significant upgrade at PG. There are still windows. Sexton is still out there and maybe also Fox.

  36. Apparently Rose’s salary is too high to fit into his early bird max, so we can’t keep his hold then go over the cap to sign him. I think that’s why there’s some confusion over the remaining space – plus we don’t know how the other contracts are structured (flat, with annual increases or falls). But it looks like we have between 3 and 7m to spend, plus the room exception. So we can sign two more ‘above minimum’ players of we’re so inclined.

  37. There was some controversy over whether it could be tweaked so it didn’t use cap space.

    Yeah, if they use cap space, they can sign him to any contract, but if they use his Early Bird Rights (which I assume they will want to do to free up a little extra cap room), then they are limited to what they can sign him to. The numbers are so close I find it hard to believe it won’t end up being through his Early Bird Rights, at which point the Knicks will open up $3.5 million to $5.5 million that could be used on another free agent and then they could also use the room exception of about $5 million on another free agent.

  38. “@NYPost_Berman
    Told PG Spencer Dinwiddie didn’t consider Knicks “a fit”. Not sure because of Thibodeau or his flamboyance doesn’t match James Dolan’s media policy.”

    We won that deal. :-)

  39. It’s RJ, Mitch, Obi, Quick, and their 2 new draft picks. It’s also not just “do they become all stars”. It’s do they improve enough to become very attractive to another team as part of a deal to upgrade another position.

    why do those other guys matter when they’re likely going to be centerpieces in a trade back? we would presumably keep rj… well maybe not if it’s for lillard….

  40. djphan: it’s not going to make sense because the city will turn on the team once the novelty of first round exits wears off… or god forbid we miss the playoffs next year…. we’ve been through this rodeo before where there’s an expiration date on the squad… but this one is neither as talented and probably barely as much longevity so i imagine it will be a short honeymoon…

    If I were to assume rational behavior, I would agree with you. But the disconnect I observe between me/the rest of us KBers and the average fans on r/nba and twitter leads me to conclude that there is no depth to the delusional optimism of most Knicks fans. And that’s probably going to spill over to the media.

  41. Alan: Ha, I voted the exact opposite.

    We clearly have very different opinions :)
    While much of the noise has and always was about point guard, with only Mitch in tow, center was a bigger hole. Having a rim protector in the lineup at all times was a defensive must-have. There just aren’t many centers out there that can match Noel for the price.

  42. @NYPost_Berman
    Told PG Spencer Dinwiddie didn’t consider Knicks “a fit”. Not sure because of Thibodeau or his flamboyance doesn’t match James Dolan’s media policy.

    This is clearly the opinion of lots of players in the association.

    Let’s face it — between Thibs and Dolan’s eccentric media policy and Trumposity and general meanness and gnomish trolldom, and L. Rose’s laziness and inexperience, and all the Wesley/CAA/Kentucky stuff, the Knicks are selecting players from a small subset of the actual player universe. That’s why they and they alone do things like punt the 19th pick.

    One of my other major fandoms is the Detroit Lions. They’ve won one playoff game in 64 years and their ownership is poor to mediocre — like the Knicks, a hand-me-down from the people of substance and talent in the Ford family to the family’s Fredo.(*) Like the Knicks, the vast, vast majority of their coaches and GMs never get similar jobs after they leave the Lions. In the long sweep, the Lions are probably the worst franchise performance-wise in American pro sports. I have way more hope for the Lions than I do the Knicks.

    (*) And now to Fredo’s daughter.

  43. Deeefense:
    “@NYPost_Berman
    Told PG Spencer Dinwiddie didn’t consider Knicks “a fit”. Not sure because of Thibodeau or his flamboyance doesn’t match James Dolan’s media policy.”

    We won that deal. :-)

    LMAO so Dinwiddie didn’t want to come here because he was afraid Dolan wouldn’t like him bloviating about cryptocurrency and shit.

    Dinwiddie is flamboyant but in a reddit way, you know?

  44. You know, I would really feel better about all of this if we’d used that 19th pick on one of the Johnsons and let them go nuts in Westchester for a whole season. Again, because whatever upside exists on this roster comes entirely from the kids. We know who Burks, Noel, Fournier, et al are going to be if healthy.

  45. I think this is the major mental block from strat.. and this FO for that matter…

    even in bringing the band back and adding what you think is an upgraded piece… doesn’t make us automatically ‘better’…. on paper and in theory you would think it does… but give some age based depreciation to some players… sprinkle in some regression… dash in some less opp 3pt luck… and you bringing back the same team could in fact mean that we are taking a step back all in itself….

    As usual, your extreme negatively and management hate is clouding your thinking. :-)

    Of course there are possible downsides like Randle shooting 30%-35% from 3, Rose declining again or getting hurt etc…

    You could have said things like that last year and in any other year too. On the flip side no one saw Randle taking an extreme leap like he did, but it happened. Maybe this year it will be Quick, Obi, and RJ. Maybe Mitch will come back healthy and take a big step forward by the 2nd half of the season. We know what these players did last year. We know that Fournier is an upgrade over Bullock. We know we have more players likely to improve than players that are likely to decline. So even if someone like Randle regresses (as I expect), a few others should improve enough to more than make up that gap.

    More important is that teams like Boston and Miami are probably not going to be as bad this year if healthy and a couple of teams may have improved more.

  46. If Mudiay shows something in Summer League, I would almost kind of want to see what a Thibs-coached Mudiay would look like. Probably a DNP-CD, but still, it’d be an interesting trainwreck, at least!

  47. My biggest concern is Fournier, but at least the last year is a team option. Still, it’s a lot of money for a guy that has played a lot of losing basketball…

  48. This is everything I expected. We built a team that will consistently be in the play in tournament.

    The frustrating thing is we had a real shot after Mills was fired. The team was in surprisingly good shape for anyone who was willing to come in and be patient. But Dolan decided to go with Leon Rose instead of a real POBO. And Leon Rose wanted to win now.

    So now we have achieved mediocrity, and left enormous potential unfulfilled. My guess is that Dolan is going to be thrilled, too.

  49. You know, I would really feel better about all of this if we’d used that 19th pick on one of the Johnsons and let them go nuts in Westchester for a whole season.

    seemingly small mistakes turn into large issues…. just missing on haliburton led to the derrick rose deal… punting the 2nd rd pick and the 19th pick could’ve saved us from at least the burks or noel deals….

    these aren’t minor things … and should be very clear in hindsight….

  50. My biggest concern is Fournier, but at least the last year is a team option. Still, it’s a lot of money for a guy that has played a lot of losing basketball…

    I must admit that at one point, reading a glowing report about his offense, I was thinking, “So, his awesome offense really helped those great Orlando offenses of recent years, right?”

  51. I just don’t get the hate.

    Mitch is walking around in a boot still but people are upset we gave a fair market contract to a really good defensive center who can start or play back up?

    Burks can hold down the second unit while IQ, Grimes, McBride, Villadoza, Obi perculate and grow.

    Derrick Rose – yes, I get the contract is probably one year too much and Thibs definitely has to be careful with his minutes. But D Rose literally saved our season last year and took us to the next level. A full season of him and IQ and no Elf will immediately make us better.

    And Fournier is a DAMN good player. A clear upgrade from Bullock and we have a team option for year 4. And the yearly salary is pretty market value too. We didn’t really overpay for any of these guys.

    We brought back solid that can help maintain and build on the progress we had last year while letting the youngsters grow and learn how to win. And we have no bad contracts really. If a star becomes available, we have moveable contracts attached to productive basketball players and all of our cap space.

    Oh and they aren’t done yet. Move Knox and there is still room to pick up another PG if we want that. And yes, the PG spot is thin but this is also an opportunity for IQ, Villadoza and McBride to take some minutes at that spot, maybe even take the starting spot.

    The team actually got better on offense and younger.

    And we still have all our first round picks plus a ton of second round picks.

    I honestly think some of you would just rather turn over the roster season after season because its new and you all want the new shiny toy. Yeah, the Atlanta series sucked. But Mitch was hurt and our offense sucked. Fournier will help a lot. I feel like a lot of you are really dismissing how big of an upgrade he will be for us.

    We’ll be good. Probably better than last season if D Rose holds up and our young players improve, which is likely. Or we could slip to like the 6th seed and then win the first…

  52. djphan: why do those other guys matter when they’re likely going to be centerpieces in a trade back? we would presumably keep rj… well maybe not if it’s for lillard….

    The goal is to upgrade a position.

    If you have potential duplication (Obi/Randle. Mitch/Nerlens etc..) one of them is going to be underutilized for NY. So he becomes available for a trade for an upgraded starter at another position. If Obi improves a lot, that’s great for him and us. We could trade him to get a PG that will START and give us 35 minutes instead of having Obi give us 15 minutes behind Randle. Then we are immediately better. All our young players (and picks) are potential assets for rearranging the team and making it better.

  53. As usual, your extreme negatively and management hate is clouding your thinking. :-)

    strat you’re a betting man right? so given these improvements would you take 2 to 1 on a repeat of the 4th seed given these improvements? or do you have extreme negativity and management hate also?

  54. And Fournier is a DAMN good player.

    Said no one, ever. Well, until you, just now.

  55. I just don’t get the hate.

    If it’s not an all out Hinkie tank where we draft all kids and accumulate more picks or a trade for one of the greatest players on earth at significant bargain price some people will hate anything and everything we do. lol

    Last night was disappointing, but it was far from a debacle. The only obviously risky deal is Rose, but we don’t have all the details on that.

  56. Brian Cronin: Yeah, if they use cap space, they can sign him to any contract, but if they use his Early Bird Rights (which I assume they will want to do to free up a little extra cap room), then they are limited to what they can sign him to. The numbers are so close I find it hard to believe it won’t end up being through his Early Bird Rights, at which point the Knicks will open up $3.5 million to $5.5 million that could be used on another free agent and then they could also use the room exception of about $5 million on another free agent.

    Well, this is encouraging. We might be able to add two more pieces that could be of help to us. I’d guess Taj gets resigned plus a veteran point guard please not named Elf.

  57. By the way, looking at Z-Man’s link, it just shows how fucking stupid the whole “you just like to be angry” bullshit is, as when the Knicks make good moves, we applaud the good moves. When they don’t, we don’t. Simple as that. I was so pumped about their last offseason.

  58. I honestly think some of you would just rather turn over the roster season after season because its new and you all want the new shiny toy.

    i think most people were ready to make commitments to players to add to the core.. and if they were a bench piece yes we should probably turn those over if it means we need to make 60 million in commitments…

    that’s no problem.. you could get burks/bullock equivalent in FA for relatively cheap.. that’s how we got them in the first place!

    i don’t think there was one person ready to tank… everyone wanted a step up from last year and there were many ways to achieve that… this way was one of the most unimaginative.. low upside but high risk strategies we could’ve employed….

  59. This isn’t a debacle, it’s just “meh.” They put together a team that won’t stink but also won’t compete for anything other than the 6 seed. We’re stuck in the no-man’s-land of draft picks, which I guess doesn’t matter bc we don’t like using draft picks anyway.

    It’s just so obvious there was a better alternative. It may not have yielded a 41 win team right out of the gate, but so what?

  60. Phew, this offseason stinks. Why are we paying Leon Rose $8M a year again? Multiple glaring mistakes in a matter of weeks…

  61. Nah, ya’ll just have your dudes that you like on other teams and discount how good the dudes are we have on our team. You all suffer from keeping up with the joneses syndrome. You’re like the dude who has a great girlfriend…good looking, chill, fun to hang out with and yet you always look at the other girl and think she’s hotter. Its time to settle down and get in a serious relationship with this team. Accept them for who they are and support them so they can grow.

    And upgrade is on the way. We just have to be patient. And we’re not done this off season yet either.

    Its ok. You’ll all be wrong again this season and you’ll admit it but then go right back to your ways the next day. Its the way it is.

    Our team is set to go to the next level while still being super young. And yes, Fournier is a damn good player. Saying he isn’t doesn’t make it so.

  62. Brian Cronin:
    By the way, looking at Z-Man’s link, it just shows how fucking stupid the whole “you just like to be angry” bullshit is, as when the Knicks make good moves, we applaud the good moves. When they don’t, we don’t. Simple as that. I was so pumped about their last offseason.

    Idk Brian, I saw the same people making similar gripes in that year-old link, knives out.

    Last year, we had nowhere to go but up. In retrospect, that task was a lot easier. Staying relevant will be a lot harder, but we have some gamers on this squad. Hopefully the young guys will surprise us this year.

  63. Stuck in no man’s land.

    Yeah winning basketball games sure does suck.

    F this championship or bust mentality. The Bucks lost in the first round last year and are now world champions. No one thought Atlanta would make the ECF this year. The fact is, none of you ACTUALLY know what will happen and are wrong just as many times as you’re right.

  64. Z-man:
    Hey strat, take a look at the hot takes in this thread….from just after free agency last year.

    This one from that guy you say is wrong about everything looks pretty prescient:

    Hubert
    November 22, 2020 at 8:51 am
    rose is demonstrating that he is better than the previous regimes. that’s great and all but we’ve seen enough early signs to suggest that, barring some extreme learning on the job, he’s going to peak at not good enough.

    all I see here is that we finally have a PoBO capable of being successful in his pursuit of 40 wins and the 8 seed.

    To quote JK47, “never doubt my epiphany.”

  65. Please tell me the Derrick Rose contract is one guaranteed year with two team options. And hopefully Burke’s and Noel’s third years are team options?

    I don’t mind a hold the fort strategy when getting better doesn’t seem to be in the cards (assuming that there was a Plan A that they quickly realized was not going to happen), but holding the fort for three years on a team that very likely overachieved for a year? I really hope that’s just a joke, and not the current FO’s thinking.

  66. Jeremy Cohen had a long bit also on the vagueness in Rose’s contract and how a small amount of cash we give him is the difference between having a lot of extra money to spend or not. Others have referenced above but I found it helpful.

    Glad the US got past Spain. Rubio was “unguardable” apparently. Watched Slovenia and Luka was good not great but Zoran Dragic, Goran’s brother, was also “unguardable” and they blew Germany out easily.

    Not sure what to add to what everyone else has said pretty eloquently. A full rebuild would have been better than this. Drafting a project at 19 would have been better than this. The Knicks are a fringe playoff team with completely capped upside outside of RJ, Mitch, a major rookie surprise, or Noel getting a double hand transplant. They will be watchable but not sure how much I will watch.

  67. We were a 500 team before Derrick Rose, which would mean we are not a lottery team, no?

    But please…keep up with the pessimism. Just digging yourself deeper and deeper into the hole. Can’t wait till I have to throw the ladder down so you can climb out once the season starts!

  68. Stuck in no man’s land.

    Yeah winning basketball games sure does suck.

    The joy of being a team that gets trounced in the first round has diminishing returns.

  69. I just don’t feel like for all the dollars and years we committed yesterday we really moved the needle very much. To my eyes Thibs Randle RJ Mitch IQ was a good start towards at least a play-in tournament team even if they had used the rest of their cap to take on bad money (get in on the Adams Bledsoe dump for example) or sign one-year value contracts again.

    I thought the old strategy of continuing to roll forward all your flexibility while trying to gradually improve and maintain a solid base of assets until a big opportunity came along made plenty of sense – it wasn’t my first choice but it was solid. Pivoting away from that at this point just to lock in a slightly above average team for the next three years – I just don’t get it really. We’ve bided our time so patiently and this is the opportunity we lunged at?

  70. i don’t know where i got the rep as a pessimist…. i was actually pushing for and defended randle and rj probably longer than everyone here…. including all the self proclaimed optimists…. if being a pessimist is that i don’t support the FO or the team at all costs.. then i guess that doesn’t make me delusional…

  71. There is so much upside on this team. Seriously?

    RJ – will most definitely improve
    IQ – will most definitely improve
    Obi – will most definitely improve
    Mitch – definitely a question mark with health but if he stays on the court and can continue what he did in the first half of last season and maybe get some more lobs and putbacks, that’s upside for sure.

    then we have the unknowns of Villadoza, Grimes and McBride. I’m not expecting huge contributions from our rookies but you never know. Villadoza is also a question mark but he’s an accomplished European player and won’t be the typical rookie coming into the league in that regard.

    That’s a lot of potential upside.

    I do think they should try to get one more stop gap emergency PG just in case. And bring back Taj too.

  72. Does anyone know how long it takes for contract details to be reported? Any chance the Burks, Noel and Rose deals are not fully guaranteed?

  73. You know who very clearly didn’t believe the whole “you can move contracts whenever you want” thing until yesterday? Our front office. They meticulously avoided 2022 money since they took over until 18 hours ago.

    If we were always comfortable surrendering 2022 (and beyond) flexibility, does anyone want to make the case that any of these moves were better than beating the Rockets’ offer for Wood? That’s a deal you could actually trade for surplus value (i.e. not “with extra assets attached when you’re desperate”) at the drop of a hat. It’s also a deal that makes us substantially better basketball team, so everyone is happy.

    Hell, we have no reason to be happy we avoided the Hayward deal if this was the plan instead. He comes off the books at the same time as Rose/Noel/Burks, and he +2 draft picks/exception signings are almost definitely better basketball wise too.

    This is what I mean when I say there was a clear, major change of perspective. Putting together a team that lucked its way into the 4th seed and got spanked in the first round should not cause such a change.

  74. Does anyone know how long it takes for contract details to be reported? Any chance the Burks, Noel and Rose deals are not fully guaranteed?

    Burks is fully guaranteed. The others aren’t clear yet. It might take until the day of the signing for us to know for sure.

    That there’s been no word of it, though, sure suggests that they’re fully guaranteed.

  75. I get it… after decades of mismanagement and abuse, it’s easy to think nothing will ever go right again… but holy hell, the negativity around the draft and these deals makes reading fan sites utterly miserable!

    Last year’s team was fun as hell! They got better as the season progressed (playoffs aside) and I came to love and appreciate every one of these guys. Payton felt like the only true negative on the roster, and he’s gone. I’ll miss Bullock, but Fournier seems like a possible net win. Rose has completely redefined himself as an elite role player. Burks and Noel both made huge contributions and I’m glad to keep ’em in the fold.

    And then we’ve still got a bunch of fun kids on the roster, with a few promising rookies in the mix. It’s the best YOUNG Knicks team since we sold the farm for Melo. Run it back! Let these guys build chemistry, strengthen that identity. I want to see IQ in a bigger role. I want to see if Toppin might actually turn into an NBA player.

    Yeah, the playoffs were a bust – particularly for our best players – but Atlanta was just better. The team still has room for improvement, and there’s not an albatross among the contracts.

    Looking forward to summer league and the regular season!

  76. I voted Fournier’s contract as the best, and have Rose’s slightly beating out Noel’s for the worst.

    Fournier’s contract is the only one that represents a direction. We had a need for more off-the-dribble shooting, and offense generally, and spent to address it. I don’t know if it was the best move, but it was a move that makes sense if there was a mandate to make the team better.

    Everything else screamed “happy to be there” about losing in 5 games in the first round.

    I think Rose’s contract is the worst because it wouldn’t surprise me if it was an albatross on day 1. Noel’s will require sweetener to dump too, because no one wants non-elite centers for substantial money. Take your pick.

    People seem to be missing the fact that Rose, Bullock, Burks, Noel, and the team in general were appealing last year specifically because they were cheap. 41 wins and a first-round out was an acceptable outcome because there were clear avenues to improve on that outcome. Now, well, like BC said, cherish those game 2 memories.

  77. Lucked their way into the 4th seed. F off with that bullshit.

    This team played their asses off every night. The number of games they phoned in last season was less than I can count on one hand. Even when they were going up against much better teams, they fought hard to the end. That is why they brought these dudes back.

    CULTURE MATTERS.

    Lucked their way to the 4th seed. Seriously. Stop it.

  78. So we could have as much as $8.5 million in cap room(*), plus the $4.9 million room exception. I don’t think there are cap mechanics that would allow us to operate as an over-the-cap team, which would give us access to the higher mid-level extension instead of the room exception, but I could be wrong.

    (*) Give or take Luca Vildoza, and there is a very small, petty part of me that would almost enjoy Vildoza getting cut before the season begins, just to punish all you jokers who kept asking if he would be in the playoff rotation, long after it was clear he wouldn’t even be physically with the team then.

    What’s done is done with the other stuff, good, bad, or, most likely, mediocre. What would you want to do with the remaining money/exceptions? If we bring in a vet point guard, it means even less playing time for IQ (and some trickle-down to Grimes and McBride, assuming McBride is even being considered for the rotation now). If we don’t, though, it means either Rose starts (which seems bad for both his body and his fit with Randle and RJ) or IQ starts (which assumes his playmaking skills have increased dramatically since the last time Thibs gave him control of the offense). Given that Schroder is one of the remaining options, I’d probably rather just start IQ and save the extra cash for emergencies and/or asset accumulation.

  79. if you believe for some reason that last season is likely to be repeatable with the same roster, then I guess you’re OK with this. To me it feels a lot like summer 2013. And yes I know this analogy has been made before and that the 2013 team was quite a bit older. I still feel though that both teams’ success was on the back of exceptional seasons from players who were past the typical age of real improvement. Even the younger players on the 2013 mostly got worse in the following seasons. Guys like Chris Copeland and Steve Novak were practically done after being large contributors. Carmelo was never as good. Ray Felton and JR Smith too. All those guys were 30 or younger. It’s not that they got worse exactly from the big picture. it’s more like they resumed the trajectory of their career before the exceptional season. If the same thing happens to Derrick Rose, i.e. he’s hurt all the time and doesn’t score as well, Burks… Same story, randle struggles to shoot so incredibly. I don’t consider this team at all a lock to make the playoffs. In fact Id bet against it although it’s a close call.

    And sure, the Knicks made an exceptionally stupid decision that summer to trade for Bargnani. Nothing here matches that I don’t think. Last year’s team now has less clearance, Less distance to fall before it’s out of the playoffs. If just Randle and Rose play like they did the season before last, this team is going to win 35 games or so.

  80. Lucked their way into the 4th seed. F off with that bullshit.

    Swift, first of all your tone is incredibly grating right now. I get that you’re excited about having predicted last season’s over performance, but if you really want to play the “throw past predictions in other people’s faces to discredit them” game I don’t think that’s going to be beneficial to you over a larger sample size.

    Second of all, yes, there is ample evidence that last year’s team benefitted from some luck. This was not controversial to say before 18 hours ago. There are some incredibly simple things, like being the 4th seed by all of 1 game and teams like Toronto and Indiana collapsing. Then there’s stuff like this:

    In the Knicks’ case, both health and opponent 3-point shooting are regression candidates. New York lost the sixth-fewest wins above replacement player (WARP) by my metric to player injuries, illnesses and the health and safety protocols last season. Much of that total was from Robinson, who was ably replaced by Noel and Gibson. The other four primary Knicks starters missed a total of 18 games, including one combined between Barrett and Randle — who finished 1-2 in the NBA in minutes played.

    Opponents made a league-low 34% of their 3-point attempts against New York last season. While the Knicks showed the ability to continue defending at a high rate even as that regressed to the mean over the course of last season (it was 32% in December and January) and we should expect New York to allow below-average 3-point shooting, a few extra 3s could hurt the Knicks’ defense.

    You’re free to hand wave away these empirical facts as hating or whatever, but stop freaking out on people who think an NBA front office should be expected to account for them.

  81. I’m curious about how the rotation will shake out. Many presume that Rose will start, but maybe it’s better to start Quickley at point, since the starting lineup now features Randle and Fournier as creators.

    Then again, the second unit will utilize Burks, who has point guard qualities. I’m leaning towards staring Quickley, though. Aside from Rose, who is improved, that’s a lot of plus 3pt shooters.

    The 2nd unit still needs an SF, as I’m assuming Thibs doesn’t want to give Knox any minutes. I suppose Grimes could play with Burks on the 2nd unit, but that’s a pretty small lineup. Maybe they still have a minor trade up their sleeve…

  82. wait… is Rose really not starting? i know Rose stated that it’s not good for him to start but i don’t think there’s any possibility that he’s not… it’s an open question on whether or not IQ is a pg… ditto for Vildoza and McBride…. and so Rose is the only de facto pg on the roster… at least one that thibs actually trusts…

    whoever is backing him up is going to be a question headed into training camp.. because all those names are going to have to duke it out … but with Rose’s signing i dont’ think there’s anyway he isn’t starting unless our lunge at this is bringing in Schroder….

  83. We should find one vet PG, maybe not great but who can hold the spot down if IQ,Deuce,Vildoza can’t hack it. Basically a Rivers replacement who complains less.

  84. I bet Deuce starts and focuses on defense & shooting. Offense runs through Randle, Fournier, RJ. Maybe Vildoza if Deuce looks really bad.

    Worst comes to worse, you can throw Burks at PG I guess.

  85. wait… is Rose really not starting? i know Rose stated that it’s not good for him to start but i don’t think there’s any possibility that he’s not… it’s an open question on whether or not IQ is a pg… ditto for Vildoza and McBride…. and so Rose is the only de facto pg on the roster… at least one that thibs actually trusts…

    Maybe he’s starting. I just think it’s a bad idea. Bringing him off the bench by default forces Thibs to play him less, and we saw what happened when his body got pushed too far. But beyond that, his style of play has not really meshed well with Randle and Barrett, which makes him a perfect guy to dominate the second unit and an ill fit alongside our two best players.

  86. i mean i think it’s a bad idea starting Rose too which is why i wouldn’t have signed him but here we are.. we signed him and i don’t think it’s with the idea of bringing him off the bench.. unless we are forklifting Schroder in place of Payton…

    i think we all know what thibs is about…. and after replacing IQ with Rose at pg with the second unit… i dont’ think he’s all of a sudden going to start him…. and with Vildoza and McBride… he’s dealing with two rookies and we just evaporated a pick because he doesn’t like them so i don’t think he’s handing them the keys to this thing … it’d be a minor miracle if either saw significant playing time…

  87. How good is Evan Fournier really? I have to admit that I haven’t followed him closely and don’t know much about him. Spent the last few seasons flirting with 20 points per game on mediocre teams but how good is he really? He lit up both Tatum and Lavine last week…can he have nights like that every 4-5 games or so? Does she still have an upside and can he become an All-Star for us?

  88. I was adamantly against bringing in Schroder before, but if the idea is to all-in on mediocrity anyway and we can do it for the remaining cap space + shipping out Knox, sure, why not? We’re definitely not doing anything more interesting.

  89. I agree that we did not luck into the 4th seed last year. Sure we were helped out by Boston sort of imploding, Miami not playing up to expectations, but that’s just sort of what happens. We did have good injury luck in that Barrett and Randle were healthy the whole year.

    I’m all for continuity. Even though Fournier is not as good as Bullock defensively, the fact that it’ll be the 2nd year in the system for most of the rotation is a good thing — last year we basically set defensive principles and this year we will be able to add more wrinkles. Assuming Mitch is back, my assumption is that we will be a top 7 defense again, which is good. Can we be an offense that is in the top 10-15? A top-half offense and a top 5-10 defense would probably get us into the mid-seeds again. That assumes Randle does not take a step back, that Fournier brings significantly more than Bullock did, and that one of the young guards (Quickley most likely) steps up.

    Just hard to see the upside here.

    Begley IS reporting that some of these deals may have team options – that is a little better…

  90. i guess we do still have some space left… and along with Schroder … there’s Reggie Jackson and Kenrick Nunn and George Hill.. so there’s some possibility to keep Rose on the bench if we’re just emptying our clip at this point…. we may as well right? or is burying IQ and McBride a bridge too far?

  91. Tommy Beer
    @TommyBeer
    FYI:

    Assuming the Knicks sign Rose using his Early Bird Rights (which they will), the Knicks have about $8.5 million in cap space left to spend.

    They also will have their Room Exception – which is worth $4,910,000

    Tommy Beer
    @TommyBeer
    That’s including Luca Vildoza’s cap number.

    If the Knicks waive Vildoza, that would create an additional $3,325,000.

    Which would bring New Yorks’s sum total to ~$12 million in cap space.

    They totally suck!

    They should have 50 million in cap space but they incinerated it all on players that know how to play basketball. Morons!!!

    lmao

    (I’m just trying to get with the program)

    Seriously, Vildoza has not looked all that good in the Olympics.

    With 12 million and 4.9 million they could still add a quality player and have room for FRANK!!!!!! to team up with Fournier!

    If they throw Knox into a trade, they could do more.

  92. I love DRose. He’s a DOG. Think PJ Tucker on the offensive side…perfect for playoff battles. If Thibs and Rose think that IQ is ready to start at PG with DRose as his back up and to finish games, then this is perfect for what we need.

  93. We’ll have to devote some of the remaining cap space, btw, to Deuce McBride, since we can’t sign him to a deal longer than 2 years if we give him some of our room exception money.

  94. Clearly I am a professional graphic designer:

    Bad photoshops are pretty much always funnier than good ones, and this was no exception.

  95. what if I told you that a non-trivial part of my leaning to never have children includes the inevitability of passing on Knicks-fan intergenerational trauma to them

    Bad photoshops are pretty much always funnier than good ones, and this was no exception.

    I suspect I spent more time on it than Thibs spent reviewing Aller’s roster advice

  96. They should have 50 million in cap space but they incinerated it all on players that know how to play basketball. Morons!!!

    Yeah, Lonzo Ball, Devonte Graham, Cameron Payne, and Isaiah Jackson are all baseball players.

  97. The Honorable Cock Jowles:
    what if I told you that a non-trivial part of my leaning to never have children includes the inevitability of passing on Knicks-fan intergenerational trauma to them

    I suspect I spent more time on it than Thibs spent reviewing Aller’s roster advice

    “Who’s this ‘Kai Jones’ you’re talking about, Hinkie??? And what kind of a name is ‘Kai’ anyway? Sounds like a girl’s name, or a foreigner.”

  98. If it’s not an all out Hinkie tank where we draft all kids and accumulate more picks or a trade for one of the greatest players on earth at significant bargain price some people will hate anything and everything we do

    Your logical fallacy is: Straw Man!

    Literally nobody here advocated anything like that so please stop spewing stupid all over this thread.

  99. Some of you guys seem not respecting Fournier who had won more playoff games in Orlando than the post Melo Knicks or Julius Randle.

    Using these 3 years to build the Knicks back to playoffs bound good team might be ok, because there is hardly a way to a title getting past Giannis and the Nets for a couple of years. It’s not like you had a Harden whose prime would be wasted forcing the Rockets to try hard against golden state. It really is the unimaginative safe play that’s easy to make and good for the business.

  100. Popper: “ Hearing that the Derrick Rose deal may not hamstring the Knicks the way it’s been talked about – think he’s fitting into an early bird slot, so Knicks could have at least $9 million – which could escalate easily to $12 million.”

  101. Leon Rose did a nice job of getting us to the playoffs and we’re no longer laughingstock status. Bravo for that, Leon! Here’s a cookie.

    This is the part though where you want to actually improve the team. And we essentially brought back the same team, then locked it in for three years. It’s probably not gonna be a BAD team, but it’s probably not gonna break through to the next level, not when Old Man Derrick Rose, a second round pick who might not pan out, and a bunch of guys who are really shooting guards are manning the PG position.

    It’s criminal negligence that this is our point guard rotation. It’s kind of an important position! And we’re betting on Derrick Rose, who is about to be playing ten million minutes per season, staying super durable and productive, lest that crucial position turn into a gaping black hole.

    Filling that hole should have been job one. Bringing in the backup center and veteran bench wing should have been lesser priorities. This will come back to burn us, just like it did in last year’s playoffs, when our bare cupboard at PG got badly exploited.

  102. I mean, Frank would give us a strong wing defender and another PG option…

    *waits for chaos*

  103. –ISM
    –Opponent injuries/load management
    –Knicks injuries/load management
    –Every game is Game 7
    –Utterly obliterated in every dimension against a lower playoff seed
    –Empty arenas
    –Best player disaster in playoffs once arenas opened up
    –Best player played completely differently than previous years with arenas empty and reverted badly once arenas opened up

    If the term “luck” offends, that’s cool, and yeah, the Knicks absolutely earned everything they got last year — but everything screams “reversion” here.

  104. A lot of the success of this team is going to depend on Thibs consistently having this defense in the top 5. If the defense regresses we’re gonna have a real hard time doing better than fringe playoff contender.

  105. Its time to settle down and get in a serious relationship with this team. Accept them for who they are and support them so they can grow.

    it’s all to the good swift :)

    different people express themselves differently – it doesn’t mean they’re “bad” fans or it’s a personal affront to your beliefs…many of us are new york born – so, the pessimism and negativity come easily…

    heck, no doubt some might even use your earnest positivity against you – just because they can…

    shoot, if anything we need to sign you up for one of donnie walsh’s : how to be a happier fan seminars…

    the true secret is remembering that being a knick fan is probably one of the least important aspects of our lives…

    #dowhatdonniedo

  106. Genuine question for anyone defending this: if this was the plan, aren’t you upset we passed on Hayward last offseason?

    Most of us, myself included, were happy about that because we thought tying up all that money until 2024 was unwise. Now the same amount of money is tied up for the same amount of time in Derrick Rose, Alec Burks, and Nerlens Noel (and even with Hayward, we could’ve traded for Rose and re-signed him using Early Bird rights).

    Would the team not be undoubtedly better with Hayward, Rose, and maybe some draft picks instead of Burks and Noel? We’d still have the money to sign Fournier too. Seems like a no-brainer to me, and this is a much tougher example than Christian Wood, which now looks like a complete face plant.

  107. Fournier helps alleviate the need for a strong PG. Part of the starters problem was Bullock, Elf, Mitch/Noel, and to a lesser extent RJ couldn’t generate offense.

    The starters low usage at 3 positions hamstrung the offense and forced Randle to do everything. Bullock’s 14.4 USG% is being replaced with Fournier’s 23.1 USG% (over 26 on ORL). Adding higher USG players has been shown to increase efficiency for the lineup.

    We still need a competent PG though and rookie McBride or untested Euro Vildoza is a tough sell.

  108. my feeling is the PG move is still about to happen.
    whether it’s Schroder (Which is what Jeremy Cohen is theorizing on twitter) or if a Collin Sexton trade is still in the works, who knows. It’s not great, but it is what it is I guess.

    re: all the 3 year deals – I will feel way better if at least the Rose and Noel are team options on year 3

  109. Filling that hole should have been job one. Bringing in the backup center and veteran bench wing should have been lesser priorities. This will come back to burn us, just like it did in last year’s playoffs, when our bare cupboard at PG got badly exploited.

    To be fair, we could still theoretically target Schroder/Nunn/Reggie Jackson/whoever else I’m missing. If we dump Knox we can offer $13-$14M.

    Not enthralled by any of those options, but now we’re done until 2024 anyway, so whatever.

  110. JK47: A lot of the success of this team is going to depend on Thibs consistently having this defense in the top 5. If the defense regresses we’re gonna have a real hard time doing better than fringe playoff contender.

    A lot of that depends on ISM. Fickle sort, he is.

  111. Early Bird:
    I mean, Frank would give us a strong wing defender and another PG option…

    *waits for chaos*

    Yes, Frank Ntilikina, who has dribbled into the paint exactly four times since he first touched a basketball, is a “PG option” in the most competitive basketball league on earth

  112. I don’t like Schroder but for the amount we have left it’d be hard to say no to his talent at that price.

    Hopefully he’d take a 1yr deal, maybe with an option. He clearly thinks he’s worth more and may take a shorter deal to prove it.

  113. Lol I don’t like Drummond at all but him on the minimum while Noel gets 3/$32M kind of gives away the game here

  114. A lower playoff seed.

    Again, with a totally ridiculous statement that choses to be selectively negative.

    Atlanta was the 5th seed and we were the 4th seed. This wasn’t some huge upset. They basically had an identical regular season record as us and we had the 4th seed bc we beat them more in the regular season. That same “lower seed” team went to the ECF and took the eventual champs to 6 games.

    So describing them as a lower playoff team is super disingenious. I suspect you know this but just threw that out there to bolster your selectively pessimistic view.

  115. So describing them as a lower playoff team is super disingenious. I suspect you know this but just threw that out there to bolster your selectively pessimistic view.

    It conferred home court advantage on us though. Seems worth noting.

    I mean, by this logic it’s equally “disingenuous” to point out we were the 4th seed since we got there by the skin of our teeth.

  116. E, you do realize you have to change your handle now, right? No mercs left. Everyone’s here for a while.

  117. Not exactly thrilled with our first day signings…
    The names weren’t sexy, the money weren’t bargains and the years weren’t …One!

    Otoh after reading everyone’s pov and after thinking about it for hours i must say that i found one positive!

    We rewarded the guys that gave their heart and soul last season for the team so that gives us a player-friendly image of a caring and rewarding team that’s more attractive to players.

    I’m still waiting for one more traditional pg to join the team to feel much better

  118. Fournier who had won more playoff games in Orlando than the post Melo Knicks or Julius Randle

    He’s also been bounced in the first round 4 out of 4 times.

  119. I think Noel is an absolute stud on defense but until he can play 38 MPG and catch a 10 mph chest pass, I can’t see how he’s getting more than $8M AAV on the open market. At least he’s young.

  120. @IanBegley
    Taj Gibson has agreed to a one-year, $2.7 million deal to return to the Knicks, Mark Bartelstein of @PrioritySports tells SNY.

    Keeping the band together!

    So much for the dream of Obi as small ball 5. But it’s the vet minimum, so doesn’t impact our cap space.

  121. While Derrick Rose could break down, let’s all remember that before he came here was 11-14 and it was 24-11 after. I know there’s rational hatred of him as a person but hatred of the player is irrational. He’ll be an ancient 33 when the season starts.

  122. Derrick Rose started breaking down in the playoffs from overuse. Our coach is Tom Thibodeau.

    Draw your own conclusions.

  123. By position:

    Center: Solid
    Power Forward: Solid
    Shooting Guard: Solid
    Small Forward: Lacking
    Point Guard: Train Wreck

  124. Taj Gibson bleeds Orange and Blue, doesn’t he? I hope that he can help turn Jericho Sims into a more athletic version of himself.

  125. Reggie Jackson had decent numbers last year, including .433% from three on 4-plus attempts per game. I wouldn’t mind him at a decent price, although I’m sure we aren’t considering him.

  126. Didn’t vote on the favorite deal… maybe the option “none” is missing, because i don’t like a single deal. Voted DRose on the worst deal because i think at that money he’ll be the most untradable of the bunch. And yeah, he re-invented himself, but he also has a (long) injury history. It’s just a matter of him going down, then don’t regain his mojo and that’s an albatross right there. But let’s hope he can keep this year’s level of play, for it to just be a slight overpay (not ideal, but not crippling either).

    (and now i’m going to try to read the thread from the beginning… wish me luck! LOL)

  127. Rose did not break down in the playoffs. He averaged 34 minutes which he shouldn’t play. He should be capped at about 30 minutes.

  128. ess-dog:
    Reggie Jackson had decent numbers last year, including .433% from three on 4-plus attempts per game. I wouldn’t mind him at a decent price, although I’m sure we aren’t considering him.

    Jackson would be a perfectly cromulent choice. He can hit the three and do point guard things, which I guess by default qualifies him to be our starting 1.

  129. GoNyGoNYGo:
    Rose did not break down in the playoffs. He averaged 34 minutes which he shouldn’t play.He should be capped at about 30 minutes.

    Isn’t the argument that he broke down precisely because he was playing 34 minutes/game, which you agree he shouldn’t have played?

  130. The Orange and Blues Brothers are “putting the band back together.”

    They are on a mission from who the hell knows!

  131. I believe that George Hill is about to be waived. Does he have anything left?

  132. Addicted To The Knicks:
    The Orange and Blues Brothers are “putting the band back together.”

    They are on a mission from who the hell knows!

    Joliet Jake: We need $5m of cap space fast!
    Maury Sline: 5m? Who do you think you are, the Beatles?

  133. This feels like the most penny wise and pound foolish front office I’ve ever seen. Where did their model for player valuation even come from?

    I was suspending judgment about the draft partly because I was so confused, partly because I try not to dwell on negative things I can’t control. But this is just bad. Bad in a different way than before — not Isiah’s extravagant whims, Dolan’s petty interference, Walsh’s weakness, Grunwald’s Bargnani fixation, or Phil’s assurance of his own genius. This is like having insurance agents in charge — uninspiring, boring, so much effort to secure marginal returns when the goal should be to shoot for the moon.

    Agree with Doug. I said there had to be a plan, but…this hardly qualifies as a plan. Yes, I enjoyed last year, but no, I don’t think it’s easily repeatable, and more importantly, we didn’t do what we needed to do to position ourselves to significantly improve. How the hell do you not sign a PG??? Rose doesn’t count, because he won’t be playing probably even half our games.

    I’m thinking of the Joker is Dark Knight: Nobody panics when things go “according to plan.” Even if the plan is horrifying!

    Congrats to those who panicked. I thought there was something better in store. Unless a magical trade materializes, I was wrong.

  134. JK47:
    Derrick Rose started breaking down in the playoffs from overuse. Our coach is Tom Thibodeau.

    Draw your own conclusions.

    He also missed 20 games last year including 12/46 after the trade.

  135. JK47: Your logical fallacy is: Straw Man!

    Literally nobody here advocated anything like that so please stop spewing stupid all over this thread.

    It’s called hyperbole, but it’s obvious why a lot of people here are upset.

    We supposedly incinerated the 19th pick. lol Some people wanted us to add as many mediocre 19 year old role players as possible now (then would have complained if they missed out on better players after the fact) instead of saving a 1st round pick for later use as a trade asset or to draft in a potentially stronger draft.

    We signed a bunch of good basketball players to fair contracts but we didn’t get the players THEY wanted that were younger, better, but would have cost a lot more than fair price if we tried to outbid the team they chose to go to. The last part totally is ignored but would have caused a massive inferno if we actually overpaid to do it.

    Deep down inside they wish we were still tanking.

    Don’t even argue it. Nothing will satisfy some people here except tanking or stealing. If they don’t tank and there are not opportunities to steal, the managements sucks. lol

    I’m disappointed we couldn’t move up in the draft or sign someone young and good to play starting PG, but I’m happy they didn’t do anything panicky or dumb when the prices were too high or the opportunities not there. Plus, we may not be done. We have cap space and trade assets. If we don’t use them this week, then maybe later in the season.

  136. Its only not repeatable if you think there is zero chance RJ, IQ, Obi, etc…will be better than they were. It is almost guaranteed that those 3 players will improve to some degree from last season.

    If you include the natural improvement most promising young players have from year one to two and two to three, this team is better. Throw in a serious upgrade on offense with Fournier and no Elfrid starting PG and we’re easily able to replicate what we did last season. Rose playing all season is a serious upgrade too. If Mitch stays healthy….watch out. And we still do have some cap space to work with and could have more if we ship out Knox somehow. This team is loaded with upside and youth but also has a nice balance of proven NBA veterans who know their role.

    What is so great about the vets like Rose, Noel, etc…they’re good enough to start but aren’t going to raise a fuss if they’re moved to the bench for a younger player who is busting out. Throw in Taj and the culture on this team is the most solid its been since the 90’s.

  137. Don’t even argue it. Nothing will satisfy some people here except tanking or stealing. If they don’t tank and there are not opportunities to steal, the managements sucks. lol

    Who?

    Who advocated tanking in this offseason? Name one person. You’re embarrassing yourself.

  138. @TheSteinLine
    Among the options that have emerged for DeMar DeRozan is a sign-and-trade to Chicago, league sources say.

    Vuc, Patrick Williams, DeRozan, LaVine, and Lonzo is definitely a starting lineup. Do all those pieces fit together?

  139. “aren’t you upset we passed on Hayward last offseason?”

    Hasn’t Hayward missed 20 games each of the last two seasons? And the season before that he was an embarrassing shell of himself and the season before he was injured and out for the whole year after the first quarter of the first game.

    As for the Knicks, it’s easy to imagine them doing something better but I think there’s some value in them just repeating the not-entirely-awful performance the front office turned in last season. Baby steps.

    Mike

  140. We supposedly incinerated the 19th pick. lol Some people wanted us to add as many mediocre 19 year old role players as possible now (then would have complained if they missed out on better players after the fact) instead of saving a 1st round pick for later use as a trade asset or to draft in a potentially stronger draft.

    Why add 19 year old mediocre role players for $2.7M per year when you can simply sign 30 year old mediocre role players for $10M per year? It’s incredible these idiots don’t understand your genius.

    Seriously, get a grip. No one said we should tank. People wanted to use our cap space to take an actual step forward because while getting spanked in the first-round is a fine first step, no one regarded it as worthy of being our final aspiration until 18 hours ago when they needed to rationalize some bullshit.

    Do you genuinely believe paying Alec Burks and Nerlens Noel the same amount of money per year Lonzo Ball is being paid is a good use of resources? Do you actually want to defend these moves, compared to the alternatives (from both this offseason and last), on the merits?

    No one seems willing or able to do that, and that makes perfect sense because there is simply no way to argue this approach was even close to the optimal way to use over $50 million god damn dollars.

    It’s easy to point out ways that it also wasn’t the worst way to do it, and ways this front office is better than Phil Jackson, which, sure, here’s their cookie for knowing how to put a pair of pants on in the morning. Some people expect a little more than that is all.

  141. Rose, Burks and Noel are not mediocre. Neither is Fournier. If our 19th pick turned into a player as good as any of those 4, that would be considered a wildly successful 19th pick.

    The disrespect our own players are getting from people on this blog is crazy. These dudes played their asses off every night and gave us a super enjoyable season and we’re just getting started. Yet people want Devonte Graham because why exactly? I mean, he’s a nice player but has he ever played for a WINNING basketball team? Same with Ball (who I wanted?) Again, you all just want the shiny new toy and can’t appreciate what you already have. A lot of the dues you pine after you pine after them bc of their age or potential when they actually haven’t been on winning teams ever. Graham, Ball, etc. I would have been down for some of them too but lets be real. Everyone said Noel and Burks were goners before free agency bc of how well they played last year. But now that they’re back, they’re average. So much disrespect!!!

  142. Its also jsut crazy that people think the best way to build off of last year is to not bring back any of the vets and go out and get a bunch of new players who may not be any better than the ones we let go. Why exactly? ARen’t you sick or hoping a bunch of new players will gel and work out? Don’t you think RJ, IQ, etc…will benefit from playing with the same dudes? How do you think offensive schemes get better? Shit takes time!

    I remember Carlisle said after they beat Lebron in 2010 by playing a lot of zone defense that he had his team start working on that THE SEASON BEFORE and they only really got good at playing zone right before the playoffs in 2010. This stuff actually takes reps with the same teammates, Blowing it up for what? To get players that are younger but may not be as good?

    We have a real opportunity here to see what our young players like RJ and IQ are truly made of. IF we brought in a bunch of new dudes, those questions would be harder to answer.

  143. These dudes played their asses off every night and gave us a super enjoyable season and we’re just getting started. Yet people want Devonte Graham because why exactly? I mean, he’s a nice player but has he ever played for a WINNING basketball team?

    brian can you fix the site my phone is read all of swift’s posts in the voice of matt foley

  144. Swift, I love your optimism and I also have hope that the kids will provide upside for us going forward.
    IQ, Mitch, RJ, Grimes, Deuce, Rokas, Luca, Sims can all get much better.
    Bring on the Summer League.

  145. Don’t understand why most dismiss the notion that IQ is ready to play PG full time on a playoff team. He earned the right to play bunch more last season but Thibs was stubbornly royal to Elf. He now has Fournier and Randle who can create efficiently on their own and a rising RJ. IQ is smart, plays at his own pace and has a strong work ethic. He’s game is very similar to Trey Young with floaters and unlimited range while drawing fouls and making free throws. Plus he can easily throw the lob to Mitch because his PnR is initiated higher out due to his range. He’s ceiling is much higher that Schroeder, Dinwiddie or Sexton. Let the kid play. He’s earned it.

  146. @wojespn
    Free agent G Patty Mills has agreed to a two-year, $12M deal with the Brooklyn Nets, his agent Steven Heumann of @CAA_Basketball tells ESPN. Deal includes a player option.

  147. Look, I’ll say it again: our lack of a PG was a glaring weakness that was not fixed. We still have that serious weakness. We have Derrick Rose, who is really best suited to come off the bench, and a rookie who may be a couple of years away.

    We may find another bench-caliber PG on the scrap heap but we don’t have that good quality starter, instead prioritizing role players who are best suited to coming off the bench.

    We got a starter and three bench players for $50M, and didn’t fix the most pressing problem. That’s my #1 issue with the way this team is constructed and it’s why we’re not likely to be substantially better. We could be *marginally* better but the idea is generally to fix your weaknesses.

  148. Its only not repeatable if you think there is zero chance RJ, IQ, Obi, etc…will be better than they were. It is almost guaranteed that those 3 players will improve to some degree from last season.

    With RJ we can expect some improvement and maybe even major improvement and that will help mitigate some backsliding from the vets…

    the problem is the other two is going to be tough for any improvement to make a major impact… in Obi’s case he’s not going to play that much if he’s only playing non-Randle minutes considering we just spent a whole lot of money on Noel…. IQ is going to be tough topping last year without a significant bump in 2pt%… not even including the rule enforcement changes for foulbaiting….

    i’m optimistic about RJ but i think it’s reasonable to expect some major improvement from him being cancelled out by regression from everyone else just due to age… Rose and Burks being major candidates…

    so there’s not really a ton of upside with last year’s team when viewed from that lens….

  149. thenoblefacehumper,

    1. We needed a C because Mitch is not fully recovered yet and we don’t know how healthy he’s going to be. We had to sign someone. Noel is very good in his role. If we went cheaper, we’d be taking a step backwards which they don’t want to do. So Noel is fine.

    2. I’m not so sure how much we needed Burks given we signed Fournier and they are similar, but I think the deal was fair. Burks solidifies the bench, can start in a pinch without losing much, can take over PG duties if there are injuries etc.. He’s a good player.

    3. I liked Ball as a possible PG option (as did several other people), but I don’t know if management liked Ball. They may not think he’s a PG solution even if they liked him as a player. Others here feel that way. Also, I’m not sure I would have liked him at the price we would have had to pay to beat out Chicago (which might have also involved trading other assets). So if you are asking if I’d rather have Ball than Noel and Burks, IT DEPENDS on the price for Ball and how much of downgrade we took at C to replace Noel, but I’m fine with Noel and Burks.

    4. I didn’t like the Rose deal based on initial reports, but now I see we don’t know what the final details are or if we are done making moves at PG.

    What you have to understand is that they are trying to get better in the short term and long term. They are not trying to maximize 2028. They aren’t going to take a step backwards in 2021 for some theoretical gain several years out. At most they are looking a year or two out.

    The bottom line for this year was that you can’t move up in the draft if the price is too high and you can’t sign players that don’t want to come here or that you have to wildly overpay to get here. You do the best you can that’s consistent with getting better now and keeping long term option sopen.

    If you don’t like that plan, so be it. You won’t like anything we are doing (or that Riley has been doing…

  150. What you have to understand is that they are trying to get better in the short term and long term. They are not trying to maximize 2028. They aren’t going to take a step backwards in 2021 for some theoretical gain several years out. At most they are looking a year or two out.

    how good do you think they’ll be next year? and are you going to take my 2-1 bet on a repeat of the 4th seed?

  151. Look, I’ll say it again: our lack of a PG was a glaring weakness that was not fixed. We still have that serious weakness. We have Derrick Rose, who is really best suited to come off the bench,

    I’m sure they know that too, but apparently they didn’t want to overpay for Ball or give a long and very expensive contract to one of the very old better PGs. Payne wanted to stay with the Suns (for obvious reasons). Had they overpaid or given a long expensive contract to a very old PG to get him here, people would be just as furious.

    Some from here they have some money left, picks, and a couple of players they can use to try to address the starting PG situation now. If no one is available at a price they can pay now, it will be PG by committee again until they have an opportunity to make a move later.

  152. Damn right, NYC Director!

    Yeah, that Bulls team will be oddball. I’m not sure it will work in the end… the defense will be terrible. But they will have some interesting options on offense.

    If we stay healthy, I think we are a 5 or 6 seed. Charlotte and Indy will probably look better, but not by a lot. I think the Miami moves are overrated. And Boston has an inept GM now…

    Regardless of what we did this offseason, it probably would’ve been hard to top the Nets, Bucks, and maybe ATL for the next few years anyway. The only way is teaming Randle up with a BETTER player, and it just wasn’t the year to get that player in free agency.

  153. George Hill is out there now. His 2019-20 numbers were surprisingly good. Maybe he still has something left in the tank?

  154. Isn’t the argument that he broke down precisely because he was playing 34 minutes/game, which you agree he shouldn’t have played?

    I think, during the regular season, he should play around 25 minutes. During the playoffs, with Elf on the shelf, he was forced into more PT. Still, he didn’t break down even at 34 minutes.

  155. djphan: how good do you think they’ll be next year? and are you going to take my 2-1 bet on a repeat of the 4th seed?

    First of all, free agency and trades are not even done yet and I haven’t seen our rookies play a single minute of basketball yet. I don’t scout college. The Knicks get paid to do that.

    My impression based on last year is that teams like Miami and Boston are probably going to leapfrog us because they were better than us last year but finished behind due to injuries, Covid and other issues.

    Teams like CHI and CHA were better than they looked last year for similar reasons and may have improved more so far, but we have to see how that plays out,

    ATL is flat out better than us and I said that before they blew us out in the playoffs.

    It’s going to be tough to get the 4th seed again because the east will be better, but I think we have a better team and I am expecting a few players to improve also. It all depends on how much they improve and what else we do from here .

  156. The only deal that is really inexplicable is the Noel contract.

    Rose has really been pretty good in the last 2-3 seasons, obviously knows what Thibs wants. If it’s a 2 year deal with a team option on the 3rd year, it’s not awful. I wouldn’t have done it, but as an early bird deal to go above the cap, it is at least a useful player at a useful position.

    Fournier – I’m happy with that addition. Not a bargain but he’s 6’7″, shoots 40% from 3, averages 3.5 assists per game, and can run an offense.

    Burks – also not remotely a bargain, but he’s 6’6″, shoots 40% from 3, can create some, acceptable on defense. Not an immovable contract.

    But Noel. Man. He’s a good player but I just don’t get it. It’s not Jarrett Allen 5 years $100MM bad, but it’s bad. Really makes you think there’s either something wrong with Mitch medically, or something.

    serious question – is Spider Tack legal in the NBA?

  157. Thank. The. Lord.

    @wojespn
    Free agent F Carmelo Anthony has agreed to a one-year deal with the Los Angeles Lakers, his manager Bay Frazier tells ESPN.

  158. ess-dog:
    George Hill is out there now. His 2019-20 numbers were surprisingly good. Maybe he still has something left in the tank?

    I don’t know about Hill. He was a non-factor in the Sixers/Hawks series.

    Reggie Jackson impressed the hell out of me during the Clips’ playoff run. He filled the role of #2 option on a playoff team for 8 Western Conference playoff games. I didn’t know he had that level to his game. Also he has a 7’0 wingspan that allowed the Clips to play such effective smallball, Thibs would love that. But I think he will want to get paid big money off the back of that playoff run, might be more than we have available.

  159. First of all, free agency and trades are not even done yet and I haven’t seen our rookies play a single minute of basketball yet. I don’t scout college. The Knicks get paid to do that.

    it all kind of sounds so wishy washy after boldly proclaiming that we won’t be taking a step back when you’re trying to qualify everything you’re saying that we probably will take a step back even with all these bold changes…

    which one is it? or are we going to be ‘better’ than last year’s team and still miss the playoffs or get stuck in the 8th seed? is this kind of how you’re going to justify this post hoc?

    if derrick rose gets hurt and miss the playoffs… are you factoring that in at all or do you think we should assume he stays healthy throughout and that it will be chalked up to bad luck?

    are we going to compete at all with atlanta again or are we going to get swept because we can’t keep up?

  160. This, on the other hand, is intriguing.

    @ShamsCharania
    The Miami Heat have pulled the qualifying offer on Kendrick Nunn, making him an unrestricted free agent, sources tell @TheAthletic

  161. Totes McGoats as Totes McGoats: 6. I hate to say this..but if we had this projected lineup last season..Elfrid would have been ok at PG

    You had some interesting takes, Totes, but when I got to this one all the others vanished like a Thanos finger snap.

  162. The Knicks offseason reminds me of Charlotte in 2016 or Miami in 2017 or Sacramento in 2019: over-rewarding ourselves for doing the bare minimum and subsequently suffering for it. None of the contracts are terrible in a vacuum, but none of them are close to good values, and the one contract that seems intriguing to (most of? some of?) us in Fournier (just by virtue of being a New Player) is being panned across the league for bad value.

    I’m not even sure what our cap situation is, I’ve seen in different places that we have no cap / just the room and in others that we have 8/9 MM of space. If we’re in the former we should really go for another PG to spell Rose – Jackson would be nice and nobody else really has cap space. Not sure if there’s still talk about Smart being included in the Fournier S+T but that’s an intriguing option potentially – Thibs would LOVE him.

    Patty Mills would have have been an interesting backup but whoops

  163. I was briefly pissed when I saw that Mills signed with Brooklyn for 2/12, but that looks like him taking a discount to ring chase with the Nets.

  164. jon abbey used to say that no matter how bad the Knicks were that I’d be the only person here who would always remain a Knicks fan because I took being born in NYC and therefore becoming a Knicks fan as a little kid as a blood oath. I guess that’s why I can’t get really upset about these moves and I’m genuinely excited for next season because I enjoy watching a competitive, hard working pretty good team every night.

  165. Nunn is not a really a PG but he’s a great shooter and would fit pretty nicely in the starting lineup next to Fournier, RJ and Randle.

  166. If we get Nunn, it makes this off-season look much better.

    It’s not a homerun, but it looks like an upgrade rather than treading water (with some likely regression).

  167. What you have to understand is that they are trying to get better in the short term and long term. They are not trying to maximize 2028. They aren’t going to take a step backwards in 2021 for some theoretical gain several years out. At most they are looking a year or two out.

    It was actually my preferred strategy to maximize space for the 2022 offseason, while the new regime and/or it’s defenders are now prattling on about 2024, so you can cut this nonsense out.

    Here is the point you aren’t responding to, because you can’t: even if the goal was to chase every last 2021-2022 win, this was not even close to the best way to do it.

    How much better are Noel, Rose, and Burks than, say, Drummond, Monk, and Payne with an additional $15M to spend this offseason and much more flexibility going forward? Before you jump down my throat about those guys not accepting our offers, I factored in huge raises for all of them ($10M AAV for Payne, 1/$5M for the other two). You can substitute other names like Bryn Forbes, Patty Mills, Robin Lopez, etc.

    Noel, Rose, and Burks are just not particularly special players, which is why we were able to initially acquire them for so little. Successful teams find players who can provide their average-ish production without having to cut into much of any of the money they use on guys who really swing the standings.

    Instead, we’re paying ~$35M AAV for guys who are essentially innings eaters while we continue to have no aces, and in doing so have made the path to acquiring such aces that much harder. Make no mistake–a trade for a superstar is now more difficult than it was before. The Blazers, Wizards, etc. do not want Alec Burks and Nerlens Noel, so a hypothetical trade requires us to pay for the target player and pay another team (either the Blazers/Wizards or whoever else) to take the contracts.

  168. As a welcome diversion, if you thought the 2013-14 Knicks were all about saddling up old veterans for one last ride, look at where the Lakers are at:

    – Lebron
    – Anthony Davis
    – Westbrook
    – Marc Gasol
    – Melo
    – Dwight Howard
    – Trevor Ariza
    – Wayne Ellington
    – Kent Bazemore
    – Malik Monk
    – Luol Deng
    – Joel Ayayi (2-way)
    – Austin Reaves (2-way)
    – Alfonso McKinnie (non-guaranteed year)
    – QO extended to Talen Horton-Tucker
    – Mac McClung training camp deal

    Bizarre!

    Also, Russ is making $3M more than Lebron next season.

  169. Nunn and Rose in the same backcourt? Let’s bring back Dotson, trade for Terence Davis and maybe bring Josh Jackson in, too. Hell of a culture we’ve got here.

  170. The Honorable Cock Jowles:
    Nunn and Rose in the same backcourt? Let’s bring back Dotson, trade for Terence Davis and maybe bring Josh Jackson in, too. Hell of a culture we’ve got here.

    well…you know what they say…the culture of the org..comes from the top…and we all know who sits on top…

  171. Art, artist. Separate them. It’s doable, I promise. It’s the only way really to be a fan, otherwise the whole thing collapses under the weight of the contradictions. If one can watch Chinatown or Bitter Moon, as one obviously can, one can watch Derrick Rose and Kendrick Nunn play basketball.

  172. Predictably, a bunch of deals are being signed on day 2 that make our day 1 deals look even worse. Last offseason we were the team that smartly reaped the benefits of this phenomenon, so naturally we sprinted away from it.

  173. thenoblefacehumper:
    Predictably, a bunch of deals are being signed on day 2 that make our day 1 deals look even worse. Last offseason we were the team that smartly reaped the benefits of this phenomenon, so naturally we sprinted away from it.

    It was luck last year.

  174. Mein Kampf is still on sale at Amazon and has been available at fine bookstores throughout the free world for decades.

    Not sure I’ve seen them, in fact I’m sure I haven’t, but reputationally anyway, Hitler’s landscapes were terrible. Would have been better for the world if they were better, lest he wind up using Europe itself to play out his aesthetic yearnings.

  175. It really was. We went after Hayward and he turned us down.

    Which we were happy about at the time, but Hayward and draft picks/minimums is a better way to tie up space until 2024 than Rose/Burks/Noel.

  176. I’m fairly certain nobody here wanted Drummond at any price last year, even as a waiver claim.

    Negativity is getting the best of everyone right now. Noel anchored one of the best defenses last year and was instrumental in getting the 4-seed.

    We didn’t want Drummond because people thought he’d start over Noel.

  177. Doesn’t look like Nunn has made amends for the assault he committed, outside of serving his sentence. I don’t want him.

  178. Instead, we’re paying ~$35M AAV for guys who are essentially innings eaters while we continue to have no aces, and in doing so have made the path to acquiring such aces that much harder.

    Eh, I don’t know about that. I’m super disappointed with this off season, but one of the challenges we faced in trades was not having salary to return. We had a few assets – RJ, Mitch – but at such low salaries we needed to add other players, but we didn’t have any under contract to add. That’s the dimmest of silver linings, I guess.

  179. DeRozan to the Bulls for 3/85.

    Wild.

    Edit: the Bulls also traded Thad Young, a future first, a two future seconds for him.

    Things could always be worse!

  180. Well, LaVine isn’t leaving unless they really plunge. But they have some strong pieces for next year.

  181. I didn’t like any of the signings – would have been OK with Burks if we didn’t also sign Fournier, wtf – but voted for Noel because I think Mitch may have ongoing injury issues. Noel is worth that money and we’ll likely need him.

    Least liked signing Rose, for all the reasons

  182. the bulls are weirding it up.

    suns reporters are saying cp3 deal has $15m non guaranteed in yr 3 and all of yr 4 nonguaranteed. weren’t there stories yesterday that we only lost him bc suns could offer a 4th yr?

  183. I would have been very unhappy with a DeRozan sign and trade. Fortunately the Bulls saved us from ourselves

  184. Wow and they send a first, 2 seconds, and Thad young to SA? On top of close to 30 mil a year? That’s ridiculous.

  185. I don’t think LaVine can get a max until FA, so it’s not impossible he leaves. An extension won’t cover it.

    Yes, their defense will suck. Bet the under.

  186. LOLBulls

    It’s always good to see the really disastrous moves to put everything else in perspective. I don’t like our offseason but it’s worth saying that we’re talking like somewhere around a C, not an F. And we’ve seen plenty of Fs over the years.

  187. Lavine is trying to get a max this season so all indications are that he is resigning….

    i’m not sure about Derozan but the team is infinitely better off than they were since the start of last season… they got talent and it’s a matter of how that talent works together…. from where they were this is a much better track because you do have to take risks from where they are if they wanted to compete….

    i probably would have taken Derozan at his money over Fournier and Burks/Noel…. and a Ball/Derozan backcourt has some issues but so does Rose and Fournier also… i’m not sure if Derozan was the best guy to go after this summer but he’s good.. and if the goal is winning the next few years you could do a lot worse than getting the most talented guy in free agency… and we actually did do a lot worse..

  188. DeRozan was better than Fournier last year, and was an excellent player in a vacuum. But he’ll be 35 for the last season of that contract and he’s struggled on defense.

    DeRozan could look like an albatross soon.

    And LaVine also wants to compete, so a bad showing by the Bulls will get him looking elsewhere.

    Bulls also mortgaged their future on this team. Knicks may have been dumb with pick 19, but they didn’t sell all their future on the current team.

  189. Are we better than the Bulls? Please tell me we are better than the Bulls.

    Always loved Thad Young. And disliked Derozan, although my feelings have softened lately. Going to be a very interesting experiment in Chi-Town.

  190. Once the Bulls made the Vuc trade they were all in. I thought that was stupid and said so at the time, but if once you recognize that I don’t think their offseason was bad. They got a lot better, and should be able to compete for a top-5 seed (assuming BKN/PHI/MIL/MIA all stay healthy).

    Their defense will probably be awful and even offensively they have a lot to work out, but the talent is there. They’ll probably win more games than us for the next few years.

  191. Derozan has a better shot at being productive at 35 than Fournier does at 33…. better players age better because they have both diverse and deep skills… Fourniers outsized skill is shooting… and he’s been teetering from below average to above average depending on how he shoots and how often he gets to the line… and so if one part of the equation tanks then he might not be done but he’s a lot worse than what you paid for…

    Derozan skills are more robust.. he just turned in assist rates that rival a pg…. he’s also provided career highs in ts%… that’s a hallmark for a guy evolving his game as he gets older… and he will likely age much better cause of it…

    this isn’t quite cp3 level of aging.. he may not have allstar games at age 35 but he’ll probably be solid if he’s healthy.. and he is one of the most hardest working players in the nba… he’s good.. we would’ve been lucky to have a player that good on our team… he may have even been our best one…

  192. and yes we could look at the bulls as a barometer as one possibility that could’ve occurred for our offseason… if they put up a better record than us this year it will be embarrassing….

  193. Fournier @ $20M/year or DeRozan @ $28M/year? Which is better.

    All you negative Nancy’s out there, now that you know the prices of free agents, please put together a better roster with those players that signed elsewhere. You have $55M to buy 4 players. Do better than:
    Fournier: 4yr / $78M (AAS $19.5)
    Rose: 3yr / $43M – (AAS $14.3)
    Noel: 3yr / $32M – (AAS $10.6)
    Burks 3yr / $30M – (AAS $10)
    (Total: $54.4M)
    Let’s assume that Taj is a given.

  194. From a cap perspective, the Rose deal doesn’t affect much due to bird rights. Once we brought in several multi-year contracts the exact number didn’t matter much as long as we were within his bird rights.

    You can contest the plan of bringing in the multi-year contracts to begin with or, like me, take issue with Rose the person. But the contract complaints are overblown.

  195. Unless there are moves to come from the Knicks, the Bulls are better than the Knicks. Lonzo/LaVine/DeRozan/Markkanen/P. Williams/Vucevic is a nice front 6 and Donovan is a good coach. I’d pick the Bulls to have a better record than the Knicks, without question.

  196. DeRozan shot exactly 25.7% from three the past two seasons. You can’t play him, Randle, and Noel/Mitch at the same time. It’d wreck the spacing unless you believe his playmaking can compensate.

  197. All you negative Nancy’s out there, now that you know the prices of free agents, please put together a better roster with those players that signed elsewhere. You have $55M to buy 4 players. Do better than:
    Fournier: 4yr / $78M (AAS $19.5)
    Rose: 3yr / $43M – (AAS $14.3)
    Noel: 3yr / $32M – (AAS $10.6)
    Burks 3yr / $30M – (AAS $10)

    This is incredibly easy. It’s not even the tack I would take if I was forced to defend these moves, because of how easy it is. I’ll factor in raises for guys who didn’t sign with us too.

    Fournier: 4/$78M ($19.5M AAV)
    Ball: 4/$90M ($22.5M AAV)
    Payne: 3/$24M ($8M AAV)
    Isaiah Jackson ($2.7M cap hold)
    Quentin Grimes ($2.1M cap hold)
    Malik Monk Room Exception
    Robin Lopez minimum
    Taj Gibson minimum

    I put about 3 minutes of thought into this and pretty sure my team wins more games in 2021-2022 while also having more growth potential and assets.

  198. djphan:
    and yes we could look at the bulls as a barometer as one possibility that could’ve occurred for our offseason… if they put up a better record than us this year it will be embarrassing….

    Jesus give me a break, they’ve given up every draft pick for forever and are paying Demar DeRozan close to $30 MM a year. The Bulls finishing ahead of us would not be embarrassing, they may be stuck in 5th seed hell for eternity.

    I generally respect your opinions even if I don’t agree, but this is just over the top Knicks gloom and doom.

  199. The Bulls owe Orlando a 1 (top 4 protected) in two or three years, and now owe SA a 1, but otherwise have all their 1s. They’re probably Stepiened from trading next year’s 1 to SA, since they’ll likely convey their ’23 to ORL, so they have their own next year.

  200. **Fournier: 4/$78M ($19.5M AAV)
    Ball: 4/$90M ($22.5M AAV)
    Payne: 3/$24M ($8M AAV)
    Isaiah Jackson ($2.7M cap hold)
    Quentin Grimes ($2.1M cap hold)
    Malik Monk Room Exception
    Robin Lopez minimum
    Taj Gibson minimum**

    If you get Ball you need to give up a 1st rd pick or some other asset to clear NOP’s match rights, likely a vet as they want to win now.

    Some people threw around $10-12M for Payne and he still went back to PHX

    You don’t have a proven backup for the SF spot

    You’re missing a lot of defense without Noel, if Mitch goes down we may not make the playoffs

    I don’t love Jackson at pick 19

    Malik Monk is a good pickup & there nice upside from Ball

  201. Jesus give me a break, they gave up every draft pick for forever and are paying Demar DeRozan close to $30 MM a year. The Bulls finishing ahead of us would not be embarrassing, they may be stuck in 5th seed hell for eternity.

    and so where are we? they gave up picks because they were capped out… so we could’ve given them the money they were seeking without having to do that… they gave up a pick for Vucevic but we apparently gave one up for nothing? when do we get to use that?

    there’s a scenario where the bulls are better off the backs of typically decent seasons from ball and derozan… and the knicks are languishing cause derrick rose can’t stay healthy… i mean that’s a pretty plausible scenario right?

    and if that’s the case you wouldn’t be wondering what could’ve been? maybe not.. but i would… and it’s ok if you don’t think it applies.. but i do…

  202. E, all merc’d out:
    The Bulls owe Orlando a 1 (top 4 protected) in two or three years, and now owe SA a 1, but otherwise have all their 1s.They’re probably Stepiened from trading next year’s 1 to SA, since they’ll likely convey their ’23 to ORL, so they have their own next year.

    You conveniently left out they had no 1 this year either

  203. here’s two possibilities:

    pg: Lonzo Ball – 4/80
    sg: Demar Derozan 3/84

    fill out the bench with one year deals liek tony snell and taj gibson and whatever is left out there… you could probably include vastly different draft picks also…

    pg: Delon Wright
    sg: Lonzo Ball/Derozan/Fournier take your pick
    Alex Caruso 4/38 off the bench to backup either pg/sg spot.. go grab kendrick nunn for cheap if you wish… and fill out the bench with whatever… if you really want me to pick i’ll do that…

    it’s really not that hard to fill a squad that can keep pace with our signings…

  204. brian can you fix the site my phone is reading all of swift’s posts in the voice of matt foley

    too late, was scanning quickly through the thread and accidently read: mick foley…for now and ever more, whenever i read a swift post – it’ll be mankind speaking…

  205. A few useful notes from Begley:

    All of the contracts agreed to on Monday were not fully guaranteed in the final season, SNY has learned (immediately after the Burks deal was agreed upon, SNY reported that it would be fully guaranteed. We regret the error).

    With regard to the Knicks’ remaining cap space, New York remained active in pursuit of a guard on Tuesday, per SNY sources.

  206. If you get Ball you need to give up a 1st rd pick or some other asset to clear NOP’s match rights, likely a vet as they want to win now.

    Chicago had to give up something to get New Orleans to pass on matching right away, but if you upped Ball to $100 million, would New Orleans really match on a guy they seem to clearly not want back? It’s not like they got some huge return on not matching. Sato, Temple and a second isn’t much better than just what you could get on the open market by trying to sign, say, TJ McConnell.

  207. Big news all the contracts are a year shorter than we thought, which is still not great but much better

    edit: I see I got scooped by Alan

  208. **pg: Delon Wright
    sg: Lonzo Ball/Derozan/Fournier take your pick
    Alex Caruso 4/38 off the bench**

    Delon Wright was acquired via trade, not FA

    Ball requires giving up something of value to NOP

    You can’t afford Caruso after paying DeRozan & Ball

  209. Yeah, the final years not being guaranteed is certainly an improvement. It also makes “We’re planning for 2024” appear like even more BS.

  210. edit: I see I got scooped by Alan

    Don’t try to step on my turf as our official media representative, and I won’t try to campaign to be the Knicks GM, DRed.

  211. Shams tweeted Nunn turned down more money from the Knicks to go to the Lakers for basically 1 yr since 2nd yr is a player option.

  212. Big news all the contracts are a year shorter than we thought, which is still not great but much better

    Stop It!!!

    we are all still actively involved in the throes of knick anguish – there is no bright side to any of this, there is only pain and sorrow…

    for the off-season is dark and full of terror…

  213. Delon Wright was acquired via trade, not FA

    for Kris Dunn… yes we could have offered anything to get him…

    Ball requires giving up something of value to NOP

    a first rd pick? considering we don’t like those kinds of things round here.. why the hell not?

    You can’t afford Caruso after paying DeRozan & Ball

    that was in the delon wright/ random sg section…

  214. @ShamsCharania
    Nunn’s deal has a player option in Year 2. He turned down more money with the Knicks and other teams to join the Lakers.

  215. DeRozan is basically a sign of the modern NBA. He went from being an overrated shooting guard to an underrated power forward.

  216. **Chicago had to give up something to get New Orleans to pass on matching right away, but if you upped Ball to $100 million, would New Orleans really match on a guy they seem to clearly not want back?**

    Possibly, but then you’re trading away pick 19 to fit him under the cap.

    ******
    Glad Taj is back, hope that doesn’t mean Sims & Simms both get cut

  217. GTFOH to anybody praising the Derozan signing by the Bulls, if the Knicks would’ve signed him to that contract everybody here would’ve been up in arms and rightfully so. He would’ve been an awful fit here, I’d much rather have Fournier.

  218. Yeah, the final years not being guaranteed is certainly an improvement. It also makes “We’re planning for 2024” appear like even more BS.

    Agreed Brian never believed that rumor. They are gonna try a big move far before then.

  219. Not sad we lost out on Nunn. Great news about the final option years. I’m still wary about Fournier, but at least he can shoot. We definitely need RJ and Quickley to improve though, and fast.

  220. GTFOH to anybody praising the Derozan signing by the Bulls, if the Knicks would’ve signed him to that contract everybody here would’ve been up in arms and rightfully so. He would’ve been an awful fit here, I’d much rather have Fournier.

    DeRozan is a much better player than Fournier, so I don’t think it’s unreasonable to praise his signing. That said, I agree, I don’t think DeRozan fit on the Knicks well because of the overlap with Randle. In other words, praising the Bulls makes sense without it having to have made sense for the Knicks to sign him.

  221. According to SNY, the Rose deal was done with the Early Bird exception, so the Knicks still have cap left.

  222. According to SNY, the Rose deal was done with the Early Bird exception, so the Knicks still have cap left.

    ish smith or reggie jackson anyone?

    we gotta trade with someone – maybe brunson from the mavs, kevin and the charlotte pick…

  223. At least we don’t need to cheer for Nunn, I was previously unaware of or had forgotten his sordid past.

    Who else is left at PG filler?

  224. According to SNY, the Rose deal was done with the Early Bird exception, so the Knicks still have cap left.

    What’s weird is how was that ever in question? Like, shouldn’t that have been an obvious move this whole time (to use the Early Bird to get Rose)?

  225. Brian Cronin: DeRozan is a much better player than Fournier, so I don’t think it’s unreasonable to praise his signing. That said, I agree, I don’t think DeRozan fit on the Knicks well because of the overlap with Randle.

    I agree and I would add that DeRozan wasn’t a great fit on this team because he can’t shoot 3’s and that’s something the team needed with RJ at the other wing.

  226. much better with the final years non guaranteed.. still doesn’t do it for me tho as it’s not egregiously bad anymore… it’s just plain bad…

  227. The only deal I really hated was the Noel one and that being a year shorter helps, although it is still way too much $.

    Quick prediction, Knicks and Bulls will be battling it out for the 7th and 8th seeds.

  228. Possibly, but then you’re trading away pick 19 to fit him under the cap.

    Well, I have some news about what we did with that pick anyway.

    The non-guarantees are obviously very good news, though I’m still pretty confused because it seemed like protecting flexibility for 2022 was the plan so unless the 2nd years are also non-guaranteed that’s still out the window. By the time we hit 2023, Randle and/or will be extended so it’s not clear how much good this even does.

    Still, better!

  229. winter is coming…

    i don’t know pepper, it’s been a pretty solid 100 degrees around here for a bit…

  230. Reading more into it, I think the Rose stuff is seriously just NBA reporters being morons and not knowing how the Early Bird works and that the Rose deal was always going to be done through the Early Bird. Like Berman tweeting that Rose could only be an Early Bird signing if, “This is only true if Derrick Rose signs for 10.3M. He’s agreed to a lot more. Nullifies early bird. This is from Bobby Marks.” That’s just obviously incorrect. Rose could get a first year of up to $13.5 million under the Early Bird, which is pretty much exactly what he is getting, so I think that this was just shitty reporting rather than any actual controversy over Rose not being signed with the Early Bird.

  231. geo: ish smith or reggie jackson anyone?

    Clyde wouldn’t retire until his favorite player Ish did, so yeah!

  232. I’m trying to figure out what the cap situation will be in 2023 when we can renounce these guys. I’m guessing the Knicks will have a maxed-out Randle, RJ on a 2nd contract, Fournier making approx $20mil and whatever rookies are under contract. That’s gotta be at least $80mil in cap room right there.

    I guess they’ll have space for another max? It doesn’t seem to be a great spot to be in, cap-wise, 2 years from now.

  233. **Well, I have some news about what we did with that pick anyway.**

    Pick 19 was kept in that scenario, so that’s the objection. Presumably Jackson was supposed to replace Noel as backup C too.

  234. Is Burks going to take the MLE once they’re over the cap and does that free up his money? It could be that there’s a way to “order” this even better, but I don’t know all the arcana of the cap as I once did and I’m probably not accounting for holds properly.

  235. I guess they’ll have space for another max? It doesn’t seem to be a great spot to be in, cap-wise, 2 years from now.

    2024 didn’t make sense, either, for similar reasons. This whole thing is just kind of weird in terms of planning for the future, in the sense that it really doesn’t seem like any of these moves were actually made with the future in mind.

  236. Knicks have already renounced being over the cap, I assume, and cannot use the MLE. Even so, it would replace the $8M or so they have left & the $5M room exception. So it’s not necessarily better.

  237. Is Burks going to take the MLE once they’re over the cap and does that free up his money? It could be that there’s a way to “order” this even better, but I don’t know all the arcana of the cap as I once did.

    The Fournier signing prevented them from acting as an over the cap team. In order to get the cap space to sign him, they had to give up the MLE.

  238. A lot of NBA reporters don’t understand the cap at all. Brian, you should start selling them an explainer every offseason.

  239. I guess they’ll have space for another max? It doesn’t seem to be a great spot to be in, cap-wise, 2 years from now

    that’s why it’s kind of stupid…. the idea was to jam as much talent under the cap before RJ’s extension and before Randle’s extension…. we had these two summers to do it…

    once their extensions kick in you lose whatever opportunity you had to begin with…. it’s basically treading water… maybe we can stretch or get rid of fournier to clear more room but there were better ways to get there without having to do this…

  240. if we sign reggie jackson our plan to recreate the 19-20 pistons pg tandem will be complete

  241. I’d wait on projecting cap space for future years until we get the actual specifics for the deals. It may be a partial guarantee which also affects cap room.

  242. If Rose is using the Early Bird, then the Knicks are using the following in cap space:

    Fournier $18
    Burks $10
    Noel $10.5
    Rose $10

    That’s $48.5 million. Whatever they have in cap space is whatever they have over that $48.5 million. I don’t know exactly, but I imagine it’s $5.5 million at the high end. I think reporters are foolishly counting Vildoza’s non-guaranteed money as cap space, making it roughly $9 million in cap space, but the Knicks aren’t going to cut Vildoza to sign, like, fucking Ish Smith, right? So it’s really more like $5.5 million (at the high end) and then another $5 million available from the room exception (they can’t be combined).

  243. In theory Noel, Burks, & Fournier could be ascending deals and save a bit more room. Not sure what the math works out to, also not sure they’d be happy accepting their non-guaranteed 3rd yr as the most expensive.

    So they might have a bit more, but yeah reporters are probably not counting Vildoza.

    Then again reports said we offered more than the Lakers for Nunn, so idk…

  244. Well, $5.5 million would be more than $5 million. ;)

    But yeah, if they’re three-year deals with the third year non-guaranteed, it’d be hard to imagine that the deals would be ascending.

  245. **Well, $5.5 million would be more than $5 million. ;)**

    Lol, amazing we didn’t get him for that 500k

  246. I suddenly feel nauseous:

    @NYPost_Berman
    Don’t know if there is any real interest as fallback but I do know Knicks called their starting point guard Elfrid Payton when free agency opened last night. Dennis Schroder, Reggie Jackson still on PG board.

    I wouldn’t mind Reggie Jackson, Brian, but I think the Clips can offer him around 10 million? And he likes being there.

  247. Just in case any NBA reporters are reading, an NBA vet minimum deal allows a team to sign a player, like Taj, with their minimum roster space (roughly $925,000) and then the league itself will pay Taj the additional $1.8 million dollars out of the league escrow. This is done so that players like Taj won’t be penalized for having a higher minimum salary than younger players. You’re always allowed to exceed the cap to give out minimum contracts.

  248. Aha, I now know where the extra money is coming from. The Knicks had $2.775 million in minimum contracts required for their roster holds (you have to have cap holds for 12 spots). Once you sign a guy into those spots, it replaces the minimum, and so that minimum goes back into your cap space.

    For instance, the Knicks had $2.775 million for three minimum spots. Those minimum spots were replaced by Fournier, Burks and Noel at $38.5 million. So then that means that the minimum cap holds are freed up, giving the Knicks $2.775 million to spend. So that’s how the Knicks can free up roughly $8.25 million to offer a free agent like Nunn.

  249. @Alan,

    The unspeakable option crossed my mind, but the fact he was completely out of the rotation makes me think that isn’t an option… or at least he’d begin the season as a last resort.

    God I hope not, I’d probably take DSJr or Mudiay over him just out of not wanting a 3rd reunion with him.

  250. The Lauri Markkanen situation is high-larious. I think the Bulls are seriously just going to keep him for one more year as a restricted free agent on the QO.

  251. Clyde’s dream is dead! NOOO!!!!

    @ShamsCharania
    Free agent guard Ish Smith has agreed to a one-year deal with the Charlotte Hornets, sources tell
    @TheAthletic.

  252. Brian, a Clippers fan friend of mine says they can offer him 4/47, which is more than we can unless, I guess, we cut Vildoza, and send Kevin Knox to LA in a sign-and-trade.

  253. Who said it was gonna be us and Schroder as the last people unpartnered at the dance? I think they’re right unless we make a trade for Sexton or ride with *gulp* Elfrid Payton

  254. Brian, a Clippers fan friend of mine says they can offer him 4/47, which is more than we can unless, I guess, we cut Vildoza, and send Kevin Knox to LA in a sign-and-trade.

    My confusion, Alan, is that I didn’t know Jackson had Early Bird Rights with the Clippers. They can offer him a little more than the MLE, then, which is more than the Knicks can offer, so yeah, Reggie ain’t going nowhere.

  255. Who said it was gonna be us and Schroder as the last people unpartnered at the dance? I think they’re right unless we make a trade for Sexton or ride with *gulp* Elfrid Payton

    Don’t you speak that evil into this world!

  256. The only way the Burks contract makes sense is if we consider IQ a PG. If we don’t, we literally signed Burks to fill exactly the same role that we hope IQ fills. If Fournier and Barrett each play around 35 minutes a game that leaves 26 minutes backing both of them up. Those 26 minutes are going to be fought over by Burks, IQ, Grimes, and maybe Vildoza. If IQ is not a PG then I don’t see him getting more than spot minutes because I doubt we are investing $30 million in Burks to play 10 minutes a game.

    I feel the same way about the Noel contract. Robinson obviously is our starter and will hopefully play 30+ minutes a game so that leaves around 15-20 minutes for our backup center. We also have Toppin a high lottery pick who was coming on at the end of the season and had a great playoff. Toppin is stuck behind Randle so he is limited to 10-15 minutes at the PF spot. The only way for Toppin to take a step forward is for him to play next to Randle and since we didn’t invest $32 million in Noel to barely play Toppin has no room to develop next to Randle.

    After these moves, our upside lies with Barrett, Robinson, IQ, Toppin, and the rookies. There is no upside with any of our signings. Unfortunately, these signings not only fail to provide upside they also severely limit the runway for IQ, Toppin, and the rookies to play major enough roles to be able to reach their upside.

    This is a bit better at least in regards to IQ if he is the starting PG but I don’t think that’s the plan so where does he fit in now with Burks and Fournier? Can we even fit him in the rotation with anything more than spot minutes?

  257. It’s setting up for the inevitable: Dennis Schroeder Knicks starting PG. That contract if it happens will certainly be interesting to see how that would happen.

  258. IQ got squeezed last year, probably does again this year. He could backup SG over Grimes with Burks at SF, not sure if that’s better.

    Between Fournier & Rose, someone will get hurt and IQ will get a chance.

    You’d think they might want to keep the Rose/IQ/Burks lineup intact. I believe they put up some impressive numbers. Blah, blah, blah sample size.

    I’m pretty worried about IQ’s viability following the proposed rule changes, maybe FO is too (or they’re just bad or Thibs is, either way)

  259. People worried about rotation minutes for IQ, there will be plenty of games where guys will be injured.

    People harp on acquiring too many mediocre players but fact is having a bunch of mediocre players is actually a very good thing and was a huge reason for the Knicks last season exceeding expectations. Having enough decent players to keep the scrubs like Frank and Knox out of the rotation was huge. Assuming the Knicks acquire a decent PG they will go 11 deep just like last year without taking into consideration anything the rookies might be able to contribute.

  260. It’s funny, Early Bird, you just beat me to a thought I was just worrying about, “What if Thibs just thinks that IQ simply isn’t that good?” He sure didn’t seem to be enamored with him in the playoffs. If the Knicks sign a decent point guard, I really do wonder whether IQ gets super-squeezed, as already it looks like Grimes and McBride don’t have a whole lot of avenues for playing time with the current squad.

  261. I think the Clippers are in lux tax post-Kawhi re-signing? So they may pass on offering Reggie the full salary.

  262. I think the Clippers are in lux tax post-Kawhi re-signing? So they may pass on offering Reggie the full salary.

    Can they afford to let him go, though? It’s not like Ballmer is hurting for money.

  263. **It’s funny, Early Bird, you just beat me to a thought I was just worrying about, “What if Thibs just thinks that IQ simply isn’t that good?” He sure didn’t seem to be enamored with him in the playoffs. If the Knicks sign a decent point guard, I really do wonder whether IQ gets super-squeezed, as already it looks like Grimes and McBride don’t have a whole lot of avenues for playing time with the current squad.**

    I’m pretty torn between wanting a solid PG as the de facto Rose backup and knowing Luca & McBride, and potentially IQ, won’t get playing time if we do. Thibs gonna Thibs.

  264. The problem is last year there was room for Rose, IQ, and Burks because there were many games where Bullock only played 25 minutes and Payton even less. If we get a starting PG and Fournier plays 32-35 minutes a game then there will potentially be a lot fewer bench minutes to spread around. Plus, most of us were unhappy with the number of minutes IQ got last year as a rookie and it looks even more crowded this year.

    It was fine to only play Toppin and IQ 10-15 minutes a game last year because they were rookies but if they take a step forward they are going to deserve more minutes as soon as this year and definitely by next year and with the Burks, Noel and Rose signings there is no room for them.

    We cannot count on our young players to provide upside if we build a roster to never give them opportunities and those opportunities are now closed for 3 years since we just invested $35 million a year in players that are directly in their way.

  265. I think the Clippers are in lux tax post-Kawhi re-signing? So they may pass on offering Reggie the full salary.

    I don’t think Ballmer will have a problem paying for that.

  266. Who said it was gonna be us and Schroder as the last people unpartnered at the dance?

    wait, you mean know one is gonna give schroder 4 years at a 100 million – lesson to be learned julius: take the extension…

    honestly, schroder on some 1 year 10 million deal probably ain’t that bad…

  267. Is it wrong for me to low key root for the Lakers next season?

    Unless of course we make it to the Finals..then FFFFAWK DEM LAKERS!

    LOL

  268. **Is it wrong for me to low key root for the Lakers next season?

    Unless of course we make it to the Finals..then FFFFAWK DEM LAKERS!

    LOL**

    Lol, I’m on the opposite side and rather see Russ tank them

  269. Don’t shoot the messenger but Schroeder had 4 consecutive seasons of 7+ assists and gets to the free throw line at a decent rate. He also can score the ball. Would he be that terrible?

  270. Looking at their career numbers Jackson and Schroeder are very similar, of course Schroeder is 4 years younger.

  271. that’d mean a year of having to look at his gremlin mug…oops, can’t really hold someone’s appearance against them – or can you…

  272. So far our biggest improvement this off-season will be not playing Elf 1500 min. Honestly, that may be enough to keep us in the 4-seed despite regression.

    Last year our biggest improvement was playing Soph RJ instead of rookie RJ (also the PG position and not playing Knox)

  273. It is truly damning when our best-case scenario – Toppin and IQ improving on their rookie seasons and Robinson being healthy would mean that Noel and Burks would get pushed out of the rotation completely. It is pretty bad that we invested $62 million in players that if everything goes well won’t even play.

    The problem is their mere existence on the roster with those contracts makes that hope impossible and removes one of our clear paths to improvement.

    You sign vets to short or cheap contracts if they are mere injury/young player regression insurance. You don’t sign them to big money as insurance.

  274. I know he’s ring-chasing, but that still seems odd that Monk took such a tiny deal when he’s so young.

  275. The issue with Schroder, as far as I can tell, is this: There’s no version of him so far that has put it all together into a complete PG. In his ATL years he was a much better distributor from the pure point role but was way below league average TS%; he seemed to then focus on making his own shot more and his assist rate plummeted. He’s good but not great at getting to the line, and with the inconsistency of his three point shot he’s not really a floor-spacing threat. The one year he approximated league average TS in OKC was a good one for him, but even then, he did not impress at tradtional point-guardy things (he didn’t even manage a 2:1 A/TO…more like 1.5/1). He’s also not a good defender, really. If he could manage to simultaneously shoot at 57 TS% and average over 7 assists, he’d be a player I’d be genuinely happy to have, but as it stands he’s a pretty imperfect solution to our PG needs–I think even less of a solution than Sexton or Nunn would be, who have more proven scoring chops.

    But maybe the only question that needs answering is: “is he an improvement over Elf as starting PG?” And the answer to that is unquestionably yes, so I couldn’t be too mad if we signed him for a reasonable amount.

  276. geo:
    that’d mean a year of having to look at his gremlin mug…oops, can’t really hold someone’s appearance against them – or can you…

    When you look at his gremlin mug, just imagine the words “Not Elf” imprinted on his forehead, geo.

  277. Why are Nunn and Monk turning down more money to ring chase? Nunn has made $3m total in the NBA. Doesn’t make sense that he would turn down a higher offer from us.

    The Lakers make dumb moves and players just throw themselves at their feet. We make dumb moves and no one wants to play here.

  278. Ian Begley reporting Bullock to Dallas could be a sign and trade so if that’s the case interesting to see what the Knicks can get from Dallas.

  279. TheOakmanCometh:
    Why are Nunn and Monk turning down more money to ring chase? Nunn has made $3m total in the NBA. Doesn’t make sense that he would turn down a higher offer from us.

    The Lakers make dumb moves and players just throw themselves at their feet. We make dumb moves and no one wants to play here.

    I think that the implication was that we were offering him a multiyear deal with no player option, and the Lakers offered him a player option, which allows him to bet on himself and cash out a year or two earlier than what he would’ve gotten with us. Not a bad idea if you think you’re gonna be a key piece on a championship (?) team, which he might be off the bench.

  280. As I figured out below, the Knicks could only really offer $8.25 million versus $5 million, so that’s not a huge difference.

    Monk, though, I really don’t get it. $5 million is at least decent money, Monk getting the minimum is nuts.

  281. I would have rather had Schroder than Rose but would have still been pretty unhappy about it. But could have probably convinced myself it was okay. But there’s no way I want both.

    At this point based on what’s left on the market, I say we just roll the dice starting IQ and having McBride and Vildoza as insurance for Rose. It also gives the opportunity for McBride or Vildoza to step up and maybe win some minutes as well.

  282. Embedded in last year’s post FA thread was this tasty morsel:

    The Honorable Cock Jowles

    November 22, 2020 at 2:48 pm
    I cannot for the life of me understand why Noel keeps getting strung along on short-term deals. Maybe a player-side decision — I can’t tell. The absence of a friendly team option makes me think it might be yet another bet on his own future. I would gladly have thrown a 4-year, $40M deal at him, with declining salary, given how much cap space is there for vets. He’s only 26. But I guess it’s better to be happy about the deal than to watch him, like Harry Giles, go to another team for a pittance.

    You sort of got your wish, other than the declining salary part, although with the non-guaranteed 3rd year it’s almost a wash.

  283. BigBlueAL:
    Ian Begley reporting Bullock to Dallas could be a sign and trade so if that’s the case interesting to see what the Knicks can get from Dallas.

    Would a sign and trade of Bullock + Dallas or Charlotte’s first back be enough to net Brunson, or is he too important to the Mavs to give up despite having to be paid after this year?

  284. BigBlueAL: Ian Begley reporting Bullock to Dallas could be a sign and trade so if that’s the case interesting to see what the Knicks can get from Dallas.

    Brunson, please. :)

  285. I don’t see what Dallas could offer that would be worth giving up the Knicks’ ability to use $8.25 million in cap space (it’s obviously not Brunson).

  286. Derrick Rose hasn’t played 2000 minutes in a season since the last time he was in a knick jersey in 2016… if this whole thing hinges on him staying upright for the whole season then that was probably a pretty shitty plan to begin with… but if you’re going with that then you should probably build in contingencies..

    even if those contingencies involve Schroder… this is the bed we made and so we have to sleep in it…

  287. If we’re out of options, why not try what Ben is clamoring for so long? Shane Larkin, anyone?

  288. Shane Larkin would solve a lot of problems and probably be a move that actually helps the team move the needle. It would be great.

    We would still have a logjam for minutes but at least we’d have a starting quality pg.

    Get him and make all the contracts have non-guaranteed third years and everything looks a lot rosier.

  289. K I feel better if there are non-guarantees on the third year for everyone. It moves the whole offseason from like a C to a B-. Wonder if they can do anything nifty with their remaining cap

  290. Re: Schroeder I assumed that he would get S+T’d to the Kingz for Buddy? Is that still a possibility?

  291. “The Lakers make dumb moves and players just throw themselves at their feet. We make dumb moves and no one wants to play here.”

    This.
    As I tell all my Laker homer friends – it’s easy being a Laker fan, it is HARD WORK to be a Knick fan

  292. Shane Larkin is only one inch shorter than Kyle Lowry and is a solid defender. At this point in his career, he is almost for sure better defensively than Rose.

    Plus the reason to get a defensive coach like Thibs is so you can play subpar defenders like Fournier (Larkin is better defensively than him btw) and have Thib’s defensive coaching hide them or make them better. If you can only give Thibs great defenders for his defenses to be good then what is the point. In fact, since Thibs is poor offensively you need to give him positive offensive players to make up for his shortcomings and have him make up for the shortcomings of negative defensive players.

  293. If we’re out of options, why not try what Ben is clamoring for so long? Shane Larkin, anyone?

    Shane Larkin is not in Leon’s Rolodex

  294. George Hill back to the bucks…

    these options suck and i get really mad thinking how little atlanta paid for Delon Wright.. crazy!

  295. The Chris Paul contract is big, but not so much bigger than the $44M for next year that he opted out of. He is getting $30/year, with only two fully guaranteed years. Year 3 is $15M guaranteed. Year 4 is a team option.

    So, Phoenix will save $14M in cap space (staying below luxury tax) next year, paying only $30M instead of $44M.

    In 2022-23, they will pay him $30M (which is exactly what Lowry will be getting).

    In 2023-24, if Chris Paul is no longer a starting PG, they can pay him $15M to walk away. So they are on the hook for an extra $31M to guarantee one extra season.

    In 2024-25, Phoenix holds a team option to pay him $30M. I cannot imagine Chris Paul getting brought back at that number.

  296. **Shane Larkin is not in Leon’s Rolodex**

    I guess Worldwide Wes is exaggerating a bit in his name

  297. Do the Celtics even have a plan for this offseason? If so, anyone know what it is?

  298. **Do the Celtics even have a plan for this offseason? If so, anyone know what it is?**

    Supposedly clearing space for 2022

  299. If we did like some suggested and picked Isaiah Jackson at #19, wouldn’t that have triggered two camps of dissention? 1) The “There we go prioritizing Kentucky guys again!” crowd, and 2) the “Why the hell did we waste our highest pick on a raw rim protector when those guys are always available with lower picks or on the cheap in free agency? ” crowd.

    And it will almost certainly take a couple of years before Jackson is anywhere near as good as Nerlens, so suggesting that he’d be a low cost replacement for Nerlens this year is a non-starter in any serious discussion about win-now, which as we know, is all Thibs knows.

  300. Brian Cronin:
    Do the Celtics even have a plan for this offseason? If so, anyone know what it is?

    We need DRed to chime in about how his boy Brad Stevens is doing in his first off-season as team president.

  301. “Scroder” is a horrific nickname and I love it. Maybe it should be “Scroter”?

  302. Z-man:
    Pass on Schroeder and all the other Charlie Brown characters

    I’d take snoopy tho

  303. Z-Man – I would argue that between Toppin playing some center, Sims maybe being ready to get some minutes, and Taj behind them ready to step up if either struggle we didn’t need to invest heavily in the backup center position.

    Plus most of us who didn’t want to invest a 1st round pick in a center would have still preferred it to punting the pick who knows how many years down the line.

  304. Supposedly clearing space for 2022

    It’s so weird, when they have Tatum and Brown now. They have two All-Star wings and they’re just sort of punting on 2021.

  305. Smart
    Richardson
    Brown
    Tatum
    Williams

    Brown and Tatum are so good that that is still a playoff team, but dang!

  306. I bet Boston will get a couple nice players off of the FA scrap heap once the crazy money is all spent. I actually think that is the best way to “win” at free agency anyway.

  307. Regardless of how you feel about the comparison to 2013, the general philosophy the Dolan Knicks have had is that you build a house of cards sort of good team, and it will get the interest of great players who are either too stupid to see the illusion or maybe blinded by the city lights.

    Before the 2011 CBA nixed the strategy, the Knicks did this by going way over the cap and trading draft picks and bad contracts for new contracts on the brink of becoming bad.

    Since then, they’ve signed vet FAs to shorter contracts hoping again for that superstar to be spellbound after they high roll with ~44 wins.

    This summer fits right into that model, the one model the Knicks have diligently proven won’t work… and here they are again straining to appear competent.

    The problem with this strategy is that if it fails, you fall further behind. It’s like the guy who rents a BMW to look rich… if that impression of wealth doesn’t pay off, well, he’s out cash that he could have invested in genuinely improving his wealth.

    Except the Knicks are the poor guy who infamously rents BMWs for every date; they round up all their savings every summer convinced that no one will remember the previous year’s goofy attempt at a veneer of competence. Burks, Noel and Rose on top of a former bench player coming off an anomalously fantastic season that still only puts him in the category of second tier star…

    Leon Rose apparently doesn’t realize that what made this past year’s team good was that he underpaid a bunch of players. If he wanted to repeat that, he’d have to do that again, which is a lot tougher of a task than just re-signing dudes.

  308. what made this past year’s team good was that he underpaid a bunch of players.

    what made last year so good was winning more games than we lost, and, the playoff seed…

  309. Jackson is one of the guys I would have been cool with at 19, for precisely the reasons that have been stated: you could probably get him to do a fairly good approximation of Nerlens fairly quickly for pennies on the dollar.

    He’s already a tremendous shot blocker, an incredible athlete, and a gym rat with plus plus work ethic. Rim running/rim protecting is one of the easiest things to adapt to in the NBA, even the very raw Mitch Robinson was playable pretty quickly. With Thibs coaching him, I think it would have worked out.

  310. I don’t see it here so I’ll report it. We’ve been saved!

    Elfrid Payton to Miami.

  311. I actually am surprised it took him so long to get a gig. I thought he’d be a quick minimum gig somewhere. Good for him.

  312. **I don’t see it here so I’ll report it. We’ve been saved!

    Elfrid Payton to Miami.**

    Off-season now an A++

  313. Hollinger was pretty critical of the Knicks and Pelicans for their moves yesterday but he really ripped the Bulls for their Derozan move. Pelton gave the Bulls a D-.

  314. If we did like some suggested and picked Isaiah Jackson at #19, wouldn’t that have triggered two camps of dissention? 1) The “There we go prioritizing Kentucky guys again!” crowd, and 2) the “Why the hell did we waste our highest pick on a raw rim protector when those guys are always available with lower picks or on the cheap in free agency? ” crowd.

    I said I’d be more or less fine with picking Jackson as long as we shored up guard/wing depth with the other picks, even if he wouldn’t have been my pick. It’s not the absolute best use of resources, but it’s better than using a $11M AAV slot on a center.

    As for him being worse, that would probably be the case to start but with the money saved you could get better in other ways e.g. signing Lonzo Ball (the S&T compensation for him was nominal, we easily could’ve pulled it off), and his upside is higher. It’d be a win-win.

    Also, I fully agree with the consensus that Noel was a huge piece for us last year, but it’s a bit odd to see people saying our entire defense completely would’ve fallen apart if we lost a guy who played 1,547 minutes for us last season. That math doesn’t really check out.

  315. Brian Cronin: I don’t see what Dallas could offer that would be worth giving up the Knicks’ ability to use $8.25 million in cap space (it’s obviously not Brunson).

    I don’t know how trade exceptions work, Brian. Could that sign and trade create a trade exception for the Knicks?

  316. GoNyGoNYGo:
    I don’t see it here so I’ll report it. We’ve been saved!

    Elfrid Payton to Miami.

    Remember George Costanza’s reaction when Jerry told him Diane DeConn asked him for George’s number and that she was going to get in touch with him? (*)

    (*) Marine biologist episode.

  317. Lifting the protection on the ’23 1 would be nice to get from DAL.

    This would actually be nothing but a favor to them, as it would free them up from a Stepien perspective and wouldn’t do anything for us (since as long as Luka Doncic can walk, they ain’t finishing in the bottom 10).

  318. He might not be able to walk for most or all of the season. It’s happened before.

    And it must be worth something to them, or they’d just do it unilaterally.

  319. And it must be worth something to them, or they’d just do it unilaterally.

    They can’t do that

  320. Ben R: Plus most of us who didn’t want to invest a 1st round pick in a center would have still preferred it to punting the pick who knows how many years down the line.

    thenoblefacehumper: Also, I fully agree with the consensus that Noel was a huge piece for us last year, but it’s a bit odd to see people saying our entire defense completely would’ve fallen apart if we lost a guy who played 1,547 minutes for us last season. That math doesn’t really check out.

      

    Especially if you ignore the fact that he was sensational in the 1130 minutes he played in his 41 games as a starter, most of which ocurred after Mitchell Robinson went down, including a home stretch where we went 16-4.

    Most rookies suck, especially those with glaring weaknesses. Jackson averaged over 5 fouls per 40 in college. He got bullied by bigger players. He barreled into charges left and right. He got stripped in traffic. He may be good in a couple of years, but picking him over a PG, shooter or wing at #19 would have been whined about here big time. Especially since he’s from Kentucky.

  321. thenoblefacehumper: This would actually be nothing but a favor to them, as it would free them up from a Stepien perspective and wouldn’t do anything for us (since as long as Luka Doncic can walk, they ain’t finishing in the bottom 10).

    My understanding is that they could finish at #15, lose in the play-in, and be a lottery pick, and that the protections are post-lottery. And if Luka gets injured even for a couple of months e.g. his back from carrying KP, that team is surely in the lottery. So it’s unlikely but certainly not impossible.

  322. I don’t particularly like Schroeder, but if we get him for not much money he’s a roughly league average PG.

  323. cybersoze: alder almo:
    Mitchell Robinson finished fourth among centers in defensive win shares (0.114) behind Rudy Gobert (0.181), Joel Embiid (0.135), and Anthony Davis (0.125) last season.
    https://twitter.com/alderalmo/status/1422302499105542146

    I like Noel, but he is Mitch’s backup, as simple as that.

    Not only was Noel at 0.112 DWS/48, he led the league in DBPM, was 3rd in total DWS at 3.6, and 2nd in DRtg. And he played in 64 of 72 games and started 41 of them. If Mitch is better than him, it ain’t by much. I’m totally fine with his contract and love rooting for him. Dude couldn’t catch a cold, but he just stones fools at the rim.

  324. Raven: You had some interesting takes, Totes, but when I got to this one all the others vanished like a Thanos finger snap.

    I kind of agree with Totes. It’s not that Peyton was good, but it’s not like the team suddenly got better results when he stopped playing against Atlanta. Better offense would have helped him.

  325. The fact the last years on the deals are unguaranteed is pretty huge.

    But no news in the last two days is as big as what Shams just reported. Jock Landale is back in the NBA!!!! Most Spurs acquisition ever.

  326. ptmilo:
    Payton to Miami.

    did someone actually says this or are you just willing it

    I saw this:

    Former Knicks guard Elfrid Payton is finalizing a deal with the Miami Heat, agent Aaron Mintz of
    @CAA_Basketball tells ESPN.

    But now I’m starting to think that someone was trolling Heat fans.

    Sorry. I got excited :(

  327. Mitchell Robinson finished fourth among centers in defensive win shares (0.114) behind Rudy Gobert (0.181), Joel Embiid (0.135), and Anthony Davis (0.125) last season.

    Appreciate your post, but DWS is a pretty useless stat in 2021… but (2x) also DRPM has him ranked 17th in the league overall, behind Gobert, Capela, Adebayo, Embiid and Brook Lopez among centers. (This does not account for the chasm between Gobert at 7.67 and #2 Capela at 4.54. Gobert really did deserve MVP votes, if you believe the stats.)

    D-LEBRON has him at #11 overall in the league, behind Gobert, Turner, Capela, Gasol, Poeltl and Nurkic at center.

    His offense is really worrisome. Despite his good TS%, every advanced stat worth its salt has it basically undoing all the good he’s done on the other end. That’s a problem. He needs to practice catching the ball all summer and all fall. He cannot continue to bungle basic entry passes as he does.

  328. Z-man: If Mitch is better than him, it ain’t by much.

    If the game had only one side, i would agree with you. But there’s also offense.
    And just so you know, the Knicks sent him a trainer and called it “mission DPOY”. I don’t think i ever heard Noel and DPOY on the same sentence. You remember Mitch’s age, right? He’s improving, Noel is a finished product now.

  329. His offense is really worrisome. Despite his good TS%, every advanced stat worth its salt has it basically undoing all the good he’s done on the other end. That’s a problem. He needs to practice catching the ball all summer and all fall. He cannot continue to bungle basic entry passes as he does

    I’m confused. You’re talking about Mitch? This sounds more like Noel.

  330. The Honorable Cock Jowles: D-LEBRON

    I don’t trust this new LEBRON stat, Jowles, and Poeltl ahead of Mitch kind of proves it. DRPM looked about right, Brook Lopez played very good defense this year. I thought Turner would also be ahead of Mitch, he might be close.

  331. cybersoze: If the game had only one side, i would agree with you. But there’s also offense.
    And just so you know, the Knicks sent him a trainer and called it “mission DPOY”. I don’t think i ever heard Noel and DPOY on the same sentence. You remember Mitch’s age, right? He’s improving, Noel is a finished product now.

    Well Mitch has some real problems too, including being an adventure anywhere beyond 3 feet from the basket, including the FT line. He also is hurt an awful lot. Also doesn’t play like the sharpest knife in the drawer. But I agree that his ceiling is unlimited if he works on his game.

  332. Mitch can leave next year if he wants. We can offer Mitch a lot of money, but ultimately it’s up to him/a ridiculous offer from another team.

    Noel is good to have in case Mitch does leave. Maybe Sims is something.

  333. Team options for year 3 on Rose, Burks and Noel.

    This off season gets better and better. Probably our best offseason in over 20 years.

    Made our picks while picking up a second rounder and keeping a first rounder for the future. Upgraded our offense considerably with Fournier on a good contract. Brought back winning vets on fair value three year deal contracts with team options and we still have like 9 million in cap space to play with. Oh and we might be doing a sign and trade with Dallas for Bullocks that creates a trade exception or brings back a player or pick for us. Did I mention that we have RJ, IQ and Obi’s improvement to look forecasts to and are creating continuity from last years super successful season? Not to mention Villadoza.

    This front office is smart, forward thinking, patient and financially sound.

  334. Hubert: I’m confused. You’re talking about Mitch? This sounds more like Noel.

    Yeah, I think he means Noel…Mitch at least has really good hands.

  335. I think the “workmanlike” adjective is more appropos by the minute. Inspired? Bold? Thirst-quenching? Nah.

  336. ***we have no reason to be happy we avoided the Hayward deal if this was the plan instead. He comes off the books at the same time as Rose/Noel/Burks, and he +2 draft picks/exception signings are almost definitely better basketball wise too.***

    I don’t think that yesterday’s moves were very good, and it’s kind of moot now knowing that the 3rd year are all option years, but, in general, diversifying $34 million over three useful players instead of putting it all into one injury-prone one is sound team-building. (But, yeah, the fact that Rose even offered 4/$120 to Hayward shows that this season was largely fool’s gold for knick fans).

  337. geo: what made last year so good was winning more games than we lost, and, the playoff seed…

    which was a consequence of having underpaid players and so being able to afford more talent.

  338. The team options on the three bench guys are welcome news. That third year of Derrick Rose was gonna be rough.

    It still doesn’t feel like we really truly upgraded anywhere, and we’re still lacking a starting PG. Obviously we’re going to need Randle not to regress and for RJ to take another leap if we’re going to improve on last season’s team.

    I’m not bummed about watching this team next year, because I liked them last year. I do think a PG could have been had if that was the priority. I’m not really sure how we fix that problem and break on through to the next level from here.

  339. The Knicks success was based on Randle and Derrick Rose substantially exceeding expectations during the second half of the season. They did not take full advantage of having Burks/Bullock/Mitch/Noel on cheap deals, because they did not use the full salary cap. They left around $8M untouched, even with spending on Vildoza and Pelle.

  340. Donnie Walsh: But, yeah, the fact that Rose even offered 4/$120 to Hayward shows that this season was largely fool’s gold for knick fans)

    Well 2 teams had a bidding war for said Hayward and a third totally f-d up the sign-and-trade. It’s kinda unfair to criticize a FO for bade deals that they didn’t make.

    I was always a bit south of neutral on Lonzo and couldn’t care less right now that either he preferred CHI or we weren’t that interested. Very content to find out what we have in Vildoza and McBride.

    I feel similarly about Fournier, maybe preferred Lonzo by a hair but atleast I have no idea who Fournier’s father is. His numbers across the board are as good or better than Reggie, and his passing/FTr probably compensate for Reggie’s edge on D. It’s a big chunk to tie up for 3 years, but if he really is an elite shooter, those guys are always in demand at the deadline. But he’ll have to win me over.

    Burks is a solid all-around wing with no glaring weaknesses. The 3 seems to have leveled out at a high mark, so if that doesn’t change he’s also a nice 2-year piece at his salary.

  341. JK47:
    The team options on the three bench guys are welcome news. That third year of Derrick Rose was gonna be rough.

    It still doesn’t feel like we really truly upgraded anywhere, and we’re still lacking a starting PG. Obviously we’re going to need Randle not to regress and for RJ to take another leap if we’re going to improve on last season’s team.

    I’m not bummed about watching this team next year, because I liked them last year. I do think a PG could have been had if that was the priority. I’m not really sure how we fix that problem and break on through to the next level from here.

    My guess is that they could go out and get Sexton if they really want him, it just might cost a bit. But why not wait until at least summer league to get a peek at what we have? Other teams might be peeking at what they have and some guys may shake loose.

    And Rose wasn’t acquired until well into the season. We have the assets to aggressively go after guys before or at the deadline. Teams are going to have some serious cap issues and are going to need to wheel and deal to be competitive.

  342. And I hope there is some backtracking on the “This FO is as bad as the old FOs” narrative. We have a competitive roster, vets on market value deals give or take, plenty of young guys in the rotation and 11-17, cap flexibility, and a trove of future picks. We DON’T have albatrosses, primadonnas, nonsensical lottery busts, or creepy, cryptic tweets from the POBO. It’s not perfect, but certainly not same ol’ same ol’.

  343. the narrative is that this front office is better than the past front offices, but still not good enough.

    And I get JK47’s point, but I think part of what made last season so enjoyable was the feeling that it could be the start of something. With so much possibility being removed, I fear it may be less enjoyable next year.

    Even if we had just added two flawed prospects with high ceilings at 19 & 21 like the Johnsons, it would at least added an element of possibility.

  344. Poeltl is a top 5 rim protector in the league now. He just can’t shoot free throws at all.

  345. And I get JK47’s point, but I think part of what made last season so enjoyable was the feeling that it could be the start of something. With so much possibility being removed, I fear it may be less enjoyable next year.

    Well, honestly, I feel this too. It’s probably not going to be quite as enjoyable. We’re not really on our way to the destination anymore, we’re AT the destination. There’s a hard ceiling with this group, and some of the moves are redundant as others have pointed out. It’s not hard to imagine a regression for a number of reasons, and it’s equally hard to imagine this team making a deep playoff run.

    We’re going to wish we had fixed the PG position instead of investing those resources in premium bench pieces.

  346. I think part of what made last season so enjoyable was the feeling that it could be the start of something. With so much possibility being removed, I fear it may be less enjoyable next year.

    okay then, i can kinda guess where this is pivoting to now for some folks…i’m just gonna copy and paste: what made last year so good was winning more games than we lost, and, the playoff seed…

    glaring hole at the starting point guard position aside, i’m gonna look forward to more winning than losing come next season…sort of like our front office strategy, just taking it day by day…

    seriously though – what was the plan:
    a). try to sign chris paul
    b). try to sign kris nunn
    c). no plan

  347. There’s only a couple of truly competitive teams each year, most franchises have to live with getting good and treading water at good. NY has higher expectations and those may not be warranted. We’re a good team, let’s enjoy this brief respite from atrociousness.

  348. *** It’s kinda unfair to criticize a FO for bade [sic] deals that they didn’t make.***

    It’s kinda unfair to criticize any decisions that we weren’t in the room for, but we all do it because we are losers. Sorry.

  349. One strength of this offseason’s strategy is that we have pretty good depth. Which is kind of wasted on Thibs, who plays a small handful of guys big minutes and doles out scraps to the rest.

  350. The options on the third years take this offseason from tragic to very underwelming. I’m a lot less upset about the Burks and Noel deals even though I still feel we could get 90% of their production from our young players and vet minimum deals that will be available in a week or so. I am still very sad to be bringing back Rose I was really hoping he would be gone. I am also worried about our PG situation, which I do not think we really addressed. I am hopeful IQ can start and do a good job but that’s a lot riding on him and he might not even be a PG.

    I am a huge fan of Noel and pushed for him for years and was ecstatic when we signed him last year but he is not Mitchell Robinson. They are both elite rim-protecting centers but Mitch is so much better offensively and doesn’t get pushed around as much by bigger centers. Also, Mitch could still get better, he looks like he has a decent amount of growth potential, Noel is what he is. A big part of our upside is Mitch’s potential and extending him needs to be a priority.

    As for Mitch being injury-prone that’s just not true. He had a couple fluky injuries this year with the broken hand and broken foot but overall he has been durable. He had a pretty bad ankle sprain his rookie year that kept him out of 13 games but was healthy the rest of the year, was healthy his entire 2nd year, and then had the two unfortunate injuries this year, that seemed a lot more like bad luck than fragileness. Noel has been a lot more fragile over his career than Mitch.

  351. Hubert: the narrative is that this front office is better than the past front offices, but still not good enough.

    And I get JK47’s point, but I think part of what made last season so enjoyable was the feeling that it could be the start of something. With so much possibility being removed, I fear it may be less enjoyable next year.

    Even if we had just added two flawed prospects with high ceilings at 19 & 21 like the Johnsons, it would at least added an element of possibility.

    Guarded pessimism is certainly justifiable, for all of the glass half-empty arguments you and others have made. But that’s not where we were yesterday when everyone was acting on the assumption that all of the deals were fully guaranteed for 3 years (which in and of itself is telling…no one in the half-empty camp gave the FO the least benefit of the doubt, just assumed the worst, and were actually beating their chests about these crazy deals as proof their dread at passing on #19 was justified. If I recall correctly, the same thing happened at several points last year, especially when Rose was signed.

    As to whether it’s enough, we still have no idea what the roster will look like at season’s end, much less in 3 years. There is a broad range of possible outcomes because every move seems to be a dance between being reasonably competitive now and having ample flexibility and assets for the future.

    But guarded pessimism, like what you and JK seem to be expressing, is reasonable and I respect it if that’s one’s thing. I only ask that folks be fair and open-minded about it,

  352. I’m not seeing a ton of flexibility. The market value veterans have pretty limited value as trade chips, and we kinda need to keep the young guys if we’re hoping to have a better record because the kids improved.

    We have the devalued Charlotte 1RP, the Dallas 2023 1RP that figures to be a low pick, plus our own picks, which hopefully will not be lottery picks. Assuming RJ is untouchable we have Quickley, Obi, and this year’s two rookies as trade chips and it seems like we kinda need to hang onto Quickley.

    I don’t see a lot of pieces that can be packaged to pick up a starting PG, for instance, without giving up the kids who we think might improve. The option years on the mercs help a little bit with flexibility, but not a whole lot.

  353. Actually, it was a groin injury, not an ankle injury that caused Mitch to miss 13 games his rookie year and he did miss a couple games due to concussion protocols his 2nd year. Still not injury prone. Out of all his injuries, the only possibly worrisome one is the broken foot but he hasn’t had a history of foot problems so I do not believe there is much reason to worry.

  354. JK47: Well, honestly, I feel this too. It’s probably not going to be quite as enjoyable. We’re not really on our way to the destination anymore, we’re AT the destination. There’s a hard ceiling with this group, and some of the moves are redundant as others have pointed out. It’s not hard to imagine a regression for a number of reasons, and it’s equally hard to imagine this team making a deep playoff run.

    We’re going to wish we had fixed the PG position instead of investing those resources in premium bench pieces.

    There indeed is a relatively hard ceiling on this group, but a) it’s pretty high and b) we’re in year two of a rebuild from the worst shithole team in the league. So that’s progress.

    The question is, what’s next? Well no one here knows, but if one continues to zero in on the trade-out of the #19 pick as a portent of doom, and the standard of success is a deep playoff run in year 2 after the debacle thaat was inherited by this FO, then yeah, this season will probably be a letdown. Most likely we’re looking at an exit in either the play-in or the first round.

    But I liked last year’s team a lot, even beyond the results. The Thibs platitudes rang true…they played hard, they played for each other, the sum was greater than the parts. They had fans dancing in the streets and blocking traffic. They outplayed the Nets on the court of public opinion. Will that get old? Yes, but there’s so many possibilities that it won’t because we’re not burdened with albatrosses or hard capped or out of movable draft picks. In that sense, I don’t see a hard ceiling at all in terms of where things will end up, either this year or beyond.

  355. JK47:
    I’m not seeing a ton of flexibility. The market value veterans have pretty limited value as trade chips, and we kinda need to keep the young guys if we’re hoping to have a better record because the kids improved.

    We have the devalued Charlotte 1RP, the Dallas 2023 1RP that figures to be a low pick, plus our own picks, which hopefully will not be lottery picks. Assuming RJ is untouchable we have Quickley, Obi, and this year’s two rookies as trade chips and it seems like we kinda need to hang onto Quickley.

    I don’t see a lot of pieces that can be packaged to pick up a starting PG, for instance, without giving up the kids who we think might improve. The option years on the mercs help a little bit with flexibility, but not a whole lot.

    RJ, IQ, Mitch and Obi are all trade chips. The vets and unproven kids are palatable trade filler or can be chips in the right situation. Protected firsts often get deals done, and unprotected 1st rounders also work even when coming from good teams. Pick swaps and 2nds help too. Can this FO use those assets prudently after upgrading the roster enough so that an eventual blockbuster doesn’t decimate the team? Will the big fish have to wait until 2023 free agency? We’ll see.

  356. I consider Noel to be good value, young, and a big reason that we were such a good defense last year. I don’t understand why people are so down on this contract.

    Fournier is ok … but disappointing. I guess you can expect fair return for the next 3 years, and can be used as a filler in a trade. With some luck, if Thibs magically makes him a better defender, he could give some surplus value …

    Definitely I would have used Rose and Burks money on Lonzo Ball, and have a really young core with Ball, RJ, Mitch plus Randle. In any case, I’d rather have used Burks money on Bullock.

  357. So our starting line (back up) up is likely

    PG: Rose (whoever wins the job in camp)
    SG: Barrett (Burks?)
    SF: Fournier (Burks)
    PF: Randle (Obi)
    C: Robinson or Noel (Noel or Robinson)

    That doesn’t seem so bad to me. I can see why they are looking for a another guard with their remaining cap space.

  358. Everyone is wondering why the 2023 buyouts, lol, it’s the 2023 draft. They’re just looking to generate roster slots, lol!!

    I figured it out!!

  359. I know Utah was probably the only team that sought him out..but why would Whiteside sign there? He’s gonna play less than he did this past season! Why not Brooklyn, the Clips, or Dallas? Hell..why not the Wiz?

    I dunno..the offseason is weird this year. The Lakers and Heat somehow loaded up, Toronto passed on Suggs for Barnes, the Bulls netted Derozan, Ball, AND Caruso…strange things maaaaan lol.

  360. The team options make these good players even more tradeable and to deny that is sheer ignorance.

    They totally be used in a superstar trade bc they’re good, productive players on contracts that are basically expiring contracts next season. The team we send them to can either choose to keep them or flip them later for more assets a la Marcus Morris. A playoff team could use a burks, Rose or Noel.

    We aren’t locked into anything and to say this is the destination is also super dumb. I’m sure RJ Barrett isn’t satisfied with last seasons end results and will have something to say about the ceiling of this team.

    And we’re going to add another players here soon. We still have cap space.

    But please. If being negative floats your boat, go for it. I realize it’s hard to enjoy competent management and winning basketball after 20 years of being traumatized as a Knicks fan but I promise you it’s ok to do so.

  361. Man y’all are really underestimating how much of an upgrade Fournier is going to be over bullocks. He can catch and shoot, pull up 3, has a boss mid range game and is a better playmaker than bullock too. There is no comparison offensively. Defense will be an issue but that’s what we have thibs and if RJ continues to improve that can make up for it some too.

  362. I just listened to Zach Lowe and Kevin Pelton discuss the Knicks off season and they don’t hate it. They were lukewarm, but thought probably the Knicks were being reasonable. Zach doesn’t really like Fournier very much, but concedes he has skills the Knicks really need. They worried that maybe Noel’s contract won’t age well. But overall they thought the Knicks will remain a reasonably competitive team and that will be valuable them going forward because it will help attract free agents.

  363. And I also recall that all the analysts I listened to last year hated the Knicks off season moves and strategy last year. They were spectacularly wrong. I’m hoping it’s a sign our management knows more than they do.

  364. So, my spreadsheet says the Knicks have at most $7.3M, assuming ascending contracts. Maybe I’m missing something, but I think the numbers being reported are wrong or they include Vildoza getting waived.

    If they’re all flat contracts we have a little under $5M left.

    So the actual number remaining should probably be between those 2 numbers?

  365. I think from what we know now, it is a good offseason. Not fantastic and with shiny new things, but ok and sensible. We run it back one more year, i think everybody agreed that was ok to do given the bad free agency crop this year. Next offseason they’ll all be expiring, so it’ll probably be easy to dump productive players on expiring deals. If they need a sweetener, no more than a 2nd rounder will be needed.
    There’s only one glaring hole… STARTER PG! I think they might still be looking for a player there, and i’ve done some math and i think we can come up with 23M if there’s a player we want to break the bank for (if anyone wants the explanation to that, i can do it later when i’ll have more time to write it down).

  366. Don’t get attached to Vildoza, or count on him. He was only signed because we needed to get to the cap floor last season. He’s not impressing in the olympics, playing with guys he knows (just to compare, Frank plays a lot better when he is on the national team). If he doesn’t impress on SL and training camp, he’ll be cut. Right now i think it’s more likely he’ll be cut than it is for him to remain with the team for the regular season. It’s him or Deuce for the 3rd stringer PG spot. If Vildoza wins, then Deuce probably starts with a 2-way contract. I’m predicting Deuce wins and Vildoza is cut.

  367. Knick fan not in NJ: So our starting line (back up) up is likely
    PG: Rose (whoever wins the job in camp)
    SG: Barrett (Burks?)
    SF: Fournier (Burks)
    PF: Randle (Obi)
    C: Robinson or Noel (Noel or Robinson)

    I have this team.
    PG: TBD (Rose) [McBride… bye, bye, Vildoza]
    SG: Barrett (Quick) [Grimes]
    SF: Fournier (Burks) [Knox? should we trade him for another lottery bust? the good old “change of scenery”]
    PF: Randle (Obi) [TBD]
    C: Mitch* (Noel) [Taj]
    * – i’m Mitch’s number 1 fan, you know that, right? :P

  368. And last, to not fill the thread with my takes, the values on the contracts are OK if what they are planning is to sign a superstar. Last year to match salaries we probably would’ve had to send out almost all of our roster. LOL
    This season, let’s say the other team sends a superstar (eg, Lillard, Damian) and want back a young player with superstar potential (RJ), we’ll only need to attach Rose and one of Burks/Noel to get to Dame’s salary*.
    * – we can trade for a player earning 125% of the salary we send out.

  369. cybersoze: He was only signed because we needed to get to the cap floor last season.

    Ok, so this is one of my biggest pet peeves when talking about the NBA. The cap floor is totally meaningless, there is no punishment if you’re below the floor so teams don’t need to be above it.

  370. One aspect that has not been commented on in this thread (except briefly by E in a negative way and Brian regarding IQ) is what does Thibs think? After last season he has got to have more clout around the table. If all the FA players are because “what Thibs wants Thibs gets” I become a bit more optimistic. However if that were the case, it does not mesh with Plan A being get Chris Paul, unless LRose was just doing Paul a solid and knew he was never going to come. In any event, if these indeed were Thibs moves he must think the team can improve. That is better than WWW or Rose or Aller thinking the same thing.

    All that being said, it is glaringly obvious that without another move for a PG, this roster is currently not well constructed for improvement.

  371. vincoug: Ok, so this is one of my biggest pet peeves when talking about the NBA.The cap floor is totally meaningless, there is no punishment if you’re below the floor so teams don’t need to be above it.

    You’re right about the punishment, from what i know. But if you go check, almost every year teams below the floor make some moves in the last days to get to the floor. Don’t know why, but they (almost) always do.

  372. Cybersoze, your line up is similar to mine except I didn’t think of Quickly as a backup two. But you are right, he can do that.

    On the other hand I think Vildoza was a real signing. Vincoug is right , there is no financial need to reach the salary floor, none at all. He was a cheap signing because we were below the salary floor, but still a signing and he takes up a roster spot. He just doing ok in the olympics, but Olympic basketball is second only to the NBA in level of play. It’s not nothing just to be selected to play there for a good team like Argentina.

  373. cybersoze: You’re right about the punishment, from what i know. But if you go check, almost every year teams below the floor make some moves in the last days to get to the floor. Don’t know why, but they (almost) always do.

    I suspect it’s because the moves don’t cost much. Like with us, we would have spent the money on reaching the floor or we could sign Vildoza. The net spending is the same with or without him. So why not try him out.

  374. The 2+1 nature of the Rose/Burks/Noel contract make this a lot more palatable.
    Seems likely Leon and co. are aiming at 2023 to make their move, if there is a move to be made.
    We will have 2-3 first round picks that year that are tradeable, a hundred 2nd round picks, and a bunch of $ that are probably team options the following year (effectively expiring salary).

    Fournier is a do-no-harm and is actually useful player — you certainly cannot hide Trae Young on Fournier, who has juice off the bounce and can pass when the defense collapses. I’m less concerned with his previous playoff struggles given he was probably the #1 or #2 option on those Orlando teams and will likely be #3 option on our team. And re: him getting hunted by Brooklyn — I mean seriously, no one is going to look good when you have Kyrie/Harden/Durant and a bunch of shooters on the other side. If he were making $30MM/year, it’d be a huge issue, but he’s not.

    Re: Rose – I think I heard on the Lowe Post podcast that the Knicks were 27-8 in games the the played last regular season. That seems good?

    We still need to figure out the starting PG issue, but it seems likely that our 2nd unit will be very strong again, with Rose, IQ, Burks and probably one of RJ/Randle/Fournier also on the floor.

    The Mitch injury news also bring the Noel contract into a better light — him still being in a walking boot this far out when it seemed possible he could return if the Knicks made the 2nd round — speaks to some sort of a setback.

  375. Knick fan not in NJ: Vildoza. The net spending is the same with or without him. So why not try him out.

    Depending on the solution for the starter PG, we might need Vildoza’s money (that’s another reason to sign someone last year, the money is on the books and is easily used in a s&t as it’s all non-guaranteed). But if we don’t need it, you might be right. Then i think it’s what i said, McBride starts his career on a 2-way spot, and he’ll be upgraded later in the season, depending on what he shows.

  376. Meanwhile – is there any cap space left in the league?

    Sounds like we have somewhere between $8-12MM left (if we let Vildoza go) plus the room exception (I assume at least half of the room will go to signing McBride — need to use cap space / exceptions to sign for >2 year contracts as I understand it).

    Have to think we are offering all that $ to Reggie Jackson or in S&T to Schroder, and trying to get them to take 2+1 also, but maybe they are balking. Hard to imagine Jackson wouldn’t take similar $ to stay in LA. Schroder may have screwed himself by turning down that 4/84 and is probably looking at MLE offers.

  377. All I gotta say about this upcoming season is..
    I hope there isn’t any of Dipset’s bad juju left in the Garden from last night’s show..sheesh *palm face* LOL

  378. okay then, i can kinda guess where this is pivoting to now for some folks…i’m just gonna copy and paste: what made last year so good was winning more games than we lost, and, the playoff seed…

    but geo, the law of diminishing returns is real. that kind of season is not going to keep feeling special.

  379. Early Bird: The upgrade at PG is not playing Elfrid Payton

    You’re completely right, but oh man, is Elfrid’s mom going to sign-up to KB just to answer you or what? LOL

  380. iserp: Definitely I would have used Rose and Burks money on Lonzo Ball, and have a really young core with Ball, RJ, Mitch plus Randle. In any case, I’d rather have used Burks money on Bullock.

    Both fair points. The Burks-Bullock thing is a toss-up, as their deals suggest. But Lonzo vs. Rose/Burks is more complicated. You’re getting youth, but last year Rose was as good as Lonzo by himself. Will he be for the next 2 years? Or more to the point, will the combined production of Rose and Burks contribute more to winning than Lonzo in the next 2 years? Would locking up Lonzo make finding an even better PG harder?

    I would have erred on the side of youth and belief that Lonzo is not done improving, but he does have a very strong aversion to the paint, doesn’t get to the line, and the shooting stroke could regress. There wasn’t a perfect choice here.

  381. But that’s not where we were yesterday when everyone was acting on the assumption that all of the deals were fully guaranteed for 3 years (which in and of itself is telling…no one in the half-empty camp gave the FO the least benefit of the doubt, just assumed the worst, and were actually beating their chests about these crazy deals as proof their dread at passing on #19 was justified. If I recall correctly, the same thing happened at several points last year, especially when Rose was signed.

    Yeah, I didn’t care if they were 2 year deals or 3 year deals. The fact that they are not 3 year deals just means this guys aren’t Phil Jackson level bad. But I’ve always been willing to concede that. They are better than previous regimes, but still very far from good enough. Being 2 year deals does not change that.

  382. Everyone is wondering why the 2023 buyouts, lol, it’s the 2023 draft. They’re just looking to generate roster slots, lol!!

    It’s going to be hilarious when we trade out of “the double draft” bc all the players we liked were off the board.

  383. If Bullock & Burks are a toss up, you sign Bullock because his EB rights save you $4-5M in cap space this year.

  384. cybersoze: guarantee

    The spending on Vildoza so far was for last season. It went against our payroll for 2020-2021. Now we are in the second season of his contract (yes, really) even though we signed him not so long ago, His second season is not guaranteed. So if we need the salary, we can waive him.

  385. Seems likely Leon and co. are aiming at 2023 to make their move, if there is a move to be made.

    my issue with this notion — besides the fact that you can’t plan for 2023 when you don’t know who is available — is if you were going to plan for the future, why take such a short-sighted approach to the draft?

    If we had done everything Leon did in free agency, but had made better picks in the draft, I would find this off-season acceptable. If you’re waiting for 2023 and you plan to spend big on bench players, then you can afford to take Jalen Johnson and Keon Johnson, play them sparingly, develop them in practice. It would make sense to take Sharife Cooper and stick him in the G League. You didn’t need to zero in on older players who can play right away, or a draft-and-stash so you can use all your roster spots on vets.

  386. Bullocks was good for us but clearly the FO doesn’t think they’re a toss up. Burcks is the more dynamic offensive player who can hold down the bench unit. Bullocks is a catch and shoot 3 point shooter and good defender but that is about it. They wanted more variety and dynamic scoring in the starting line up and they drafted Grimes as their 3 and D guy. Considering how our offense struggled in the playoffs, it makes perfect sense to let bullocks go and keep burks while signing Fournier.

  387. At this point, if we don’t sign Schroder or Reggie Jackson I’d guess we just run with our current roster.

  388. If we had done everything Leon did in free agency, but had made better picks in the draft, I would find this off-season acceptable. If you’re waiting for 2023 and you plan to spend big on bench players, then you can afford to take Jalen Johnson and Keon Johnson, play them sparingly, develop them in practice. It would make sense to take Sharife Cooper and stick him in the G League. You didn’t need to zero in on older players who can play right away, or a draft-and-stash so you can use all your roster spots on vets.

    Yeah, the free agency moves made the draft decisions really inexplicable.

  389. They entered the draft with three picks. They left with three players, a future first rounder, a second rounder snd an extra 2 million in cap space.

    So short sighted!!!!!

  390. Hubert: but geo, the law of diminishing returns is real. that kind of season is not going to keep feeling special.

    No doubt this is true Hubert. But just having expectations of success is sort of special in and of itself. Last year, most expected the Knicks to finish with a wins total in the 20’s, and certainly no higher than the 30’s. Now the expectation is for taking the next step, something like a 45+ win season (adjusted for 82 games.) if we win 43, or 38, that will feel lousy.

    But our fans are pretty smart and realistic. Sure, they freaked out at this year’s success (and reveled in BKN’s failure) but my guess is that this year will be judged more for how the young guys and Randle play. If Rose, Burks, even Fournier don’t have it, or if Noel goes down, but Obi, IQ, McBride, Grimes, Mitch all move up the chain, then even a lower win total could be special. If Sims becomes a viable player ahd he, Obi and Mitch start catching lobs from McBride, Knicks fans will eat that up. The smart fans know that the FO kicked the can down the road for big moves yet to come, that this is far from a finished product. Now the REALLY smart fans might see fault in the process/execution, and that’s fair if properly measured. But I doubt that the preponterance of fans are going to be pissed if the team plays hard like they did last year but winds up in the play-in (likely) and ekes into the 8 slot. If they miss the playoffs or lose in the play-in, it will all depend on why. Injuries? Regression? Bad mid-season moves? Turmoil in the locker room?

  391. the knicks draft approach is short sighted because they seem to eliminate any prospect who is under 21 and needs development at the professional level to focus on players who are older and more ready to contribute immediately.

    it doesn’t complement their free agency strategy.

  392. Sounds like we have somewhere between $8-12MM left (if we let Vildoza go) plus the room exception (I assume at least half of the room will go to signing McBride — need to use cap space / exceptions to sign for >2 year contracts as I understand it).

    If they have $8 million or so left, I would imagine that they try to get a guy for under $8 million and use the rest on McBride. Remember, he already is accounted for in the cap with his rookie cap hold and I don’t believe he’ll be getting a lot more than that, right? Something like 20% more, I believe. That way the full room could be used on another guy.

    Man, I just want them to sign someone so I could start a new thread. :)

  393. McBride doesn’t have a hold as a 2nd rd pick, I’m pretty sure.

    He could get the minimum, but wouldn’t surprise me if they pay him a bit more.

  394. Can’t believe it’s Summer League already. Davion Mitchell looked real good yesterday, too.

  395. how much do we think of sims that we signed noel to a 2/3yr contract.. and brought back taj… or that we’re looking around for another pg when McBride is 4th on the depth chart as is? how many minutes is Grimes getting with Burks in tow?

  396. Yeah, second rounders have no cap hold, and we’ll almost certainly use cap space on McBride so we can give him a four year deal.

  397. If Rose, Burks, even Fournier don’t have it, or if Noel goes down, but Obi, IQ, McBride, Grimes, Mitch all move up the chain, then even a lower win total could be special. If Sims becomes a viable player ahd he, Obi and Mitch start catching lobs from McBride, Knicks fans will eat that up. The smart fans know that the FO kicked the can down the road for big moves yet to come, that this is far from a finished product.

    that’s all fair. I didn’t kill the Knicks free agency. I called it “meh.” I killed the draft. If we had better guys than Sims & McBride in the paragraph above, I would agree with you. (And I like McBride, I just wish he wasn’t my favorite player they drafted).

    If the Knicks had done everything they did in free agency, but drafted Johnson & Johnson, or Johnson & Jackson in round 1, and Cooper & McBride in round 2, I would have given Leon a B for the off-season.

    If you’re going to kick the can down the road, you can afford to draft guys who need two years of seasoning, you know?

  398. A lot of not-inaccurate kvetching on this thread, but it’s just worth remembering 22.5. That’s twenty two point five.

    That was a year ago.

    And there was almost unanimity (!) on this site that this offseason sucked for making any real moves.

    Now back to our regularly scheduled kvetching.

  399. how much do we think of sims that we signed noel to a 2/3yr contract.. and brought back taj… or that we’re looking around for another pg when McBride is 4th on the depth chart as is? how many minutes is Grimes getting with Burks in tow?

    To think that Sims, McBride, or Grimes are going to all play significant minutes as rookies is just not realistic considering where they were drafted. Most likely they play 10-15 min/game at most.

    If you assume Fournier will take all of Bullock’s minutes and that Burks will play about the same, that leaves about 2700 minutes between Knox, Frank, Rivers, and Payton basically no longer playing.

    Sims is almost certainly going to the G-league and we’ll see what happens with the #58 pick in the draft.

    Assuming Rose/Burks/IQ will play more minutes than last year, let’s say there are 1600 minutes left to give Grimes and McBride (and Vildoza I guess). I would say that’s a pretty reasonable state of affairs. Now if they pick up another guard… then who knows.

    But if you look at the 2020 draft – even “good” non-lottery rookies don’t play that much. Most of the real minutes that rookies played went to teams that weren’t trying to win – with notable exceptions of IQ, Pritchard, Flynn, Desmond Bane, Xavier Tillman. Only 4 second round picks played >383 minutes (Maledon, Tillman, Saben Lee, Kenyon Martin Jr).

    expecting rookies to play much of a role at all is an outlier scenario, not the expected scenario.

  400. Meh is fair. Apocalyptic fail is (was) not.

    I liked Cooper and Springer better than Grimes and McBride, but am fine with the latter. Last year I liked Terry and Bane better than IQ and would have loved picking one of those guys with #33 but it wasn’t a big deal for me, I was in wait and see mode and loved what I saw after waiting. That’s where I am right now. We can wax poetic about the guys we passed over vs. the guys we took, but let’s wait and see what we have in them before pulling the rip cord.

  401. I would bet that neither Grimes or McBride will be on a two-way deal. They may spend time in the G-League, but not 2-ways.

  402. expecting rookies to play much of a role at all is an outlier scenario, not the expected scenario.

    But if you look at the 2020 draft – even “good” non-lottery rookies don’t play that much. Most of the real minutes that rookies played went to teams that weren’t trying to win – with notable exceptions of IQ, Pritchard, Flynn, Desmond Bane, Xavier Tillman. Only 4 second round picks played >383 minutes (Maledon, Tillman, Saben Lee, Kenyon Martin Jr).

    so did you just conveniently skip over Precious Achiuwa and Tyrese Maxey when you went all the way over to Pritchard and Flynn? does that change your calculus at all or nah?

  403. McBride doesn’t have a hold as a 2nd rd pick, I’m pretty sure.

    He could get the minimum, but wouldn’t surprise me if they pay him a bit more.

    Hah! I totally confused McBride and Grimes in my head. My bad!

    So yeah, McBride’s minimum is already accounted for in the Knicks’ cap room that gives them $8 million or so, and so anything over the minimum would come out of that cap space, but I imagine he won’t get much more than the minimum.

  404. Hubert, even if the knicks drafted at 19 and 21, they most likely would have drafted an upperclassman because the one and done kids almost always go in the top of the draft (or super late in the second round). Once you get into the later first round, you are drafting the sophomores, juniors, etc…who have less upside. This is true regardless of who is drafting later in the first round. The young kids in that draft range are even more risky than the top young kinds. So its not short sighted to draft older kids in that range.

  405. ess-dog:
    Can’t believe it’s Summer League already. Davion Mitchell looked real good yesterday, too.

    yeah..i was watching that game and thinking the same thing…very polished…definitely stood out amongst the rest of the riff raff….

  406. I would have given Leon a B for the off-season.

    that was supposed to be a B plus but I forgot we banned the plus sign.

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