NY Post: Knicks fade late in loss to Jazz to end road trip with dud

I figure this way, Farfa can do his awesome recaps whenever he gets a chance, but in the meantime, we could have a general recap thread rather than drag out the game thread ad infintum.

From Marc Berman at the Post:

There was no stopping Utah killer Austin Rivers in the first half Tuesday. The slumping Knicks guard dropped a career-high 25 points in 12 minutes and made his first 10 shots — five of them 3-pointers.

And the Knicks were thumping the Jazz like they did in earlier this month when Rivers scored the game’s final 14 points.

But the magic stopped for Doc Rivers’ son. Rivers pushed off on a drive, picking up his third foul with 4:30 left in the opening half and Knicks coach Tom Thibodeau decided to pull Rivers and his perfect game.

The night was never the same. Rivers didn’t come back until there was 4:11 left in the third quarter and had lost his hottest of hands as the Jazz rallied from 15 points down to gain revenge on the Knicks, 108-94, at Vivint Arena in Salt Lake City.

Rivers finished with those 25 as the Knicks (8-11) finished the four-game Western trip at 1-3. Rivers missed all four of his shots in the second half as the Jazz heated up from 3 and the Knicks dropped the final three games of the trip after notching the opener against Golden State.

It was obviously a tale of two halves. In the first half, Rivers was unconscious and the Jazz couldn’t buy a bucket and in the second half, well, as noted, Rivers didn’t score a single point and the Jazz got hot from three as the Invisible Sixth Man sprained his ankle trying to cover Mike Conley.

It was disappointing seeing the Knicks fade so dramatically in the fourth quarter, as they still clung to a one point lead entering the quarter (only one because Rivers fouled Conley thinking that the Knicks had a foul to give when they did not) but then the Jazz opened with a 20-3 run, but hey, the Jazz are a really good team. They’re one of the best defenses in the game and their three-point centric offense is particularly a problem for a team like the Knicks.

Last game, Mitchell Robinson dominated Rudy Gobert, but this time, the All-NBA Frenchman got the best of Robinson.

Immanuel Quickley and Alec Burks both had terrible shooting nights and Obi Toppin, Elfrid Payton and Kevin Knox were mostly invisible. Julius Randle and RJ Barrett both had decent games.

The Knicks are thankfully finished with a tough West Coast stint and return to the Garden for a game against the Cavaliers on Friday that will hopefully see the Knicks return to winning some games.

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328 thoughts to “NY Post: Knicks fade late in loss to Jazz to end road trip with dud”

  1. this team seems headed to the Bill Parcells’ “you are what your record says you are” status…about a 25-35% win pctg squad…maybe some noise on that given covid and all the weird shit…but with a normal camp, fans in the stands (especially on the road)…it is very shaky..it is what is…rag tag cast offs and some youth..not a winning formula..oh and a coach that seems to be devoid of offensive ingenuity…

  2. Nothing to be surprised, Utah now has the second best record in the league, they were on an eight game winning streak (now nine), we were at the end of a long western road trip, playing at altitude. We’re closing in on a top ten pick, so everyone could be happy.

    The first half was a clear fluke, Rivers was supernova, the Jazz are missing shots,
    things swung in the third and cratered in the obscene fourth, with Burks and IQ brutally off the mark and Gobert blowing Mitch to pieces (please work on your fucking free throws young guy).

    Utah could offset Mitchell’s bad shooting night (a constant when I watch him play) because Royce O’Neale tripled his scoring average and Conley reappears after an invisible first half. The combined 0-13 3FG by Burks, IQ and Payton has the reverse effect offsetting Rivers’ 25.

    I’m worried that Frank could be in the doghouse as DSJ (and Frank is far less deserving, before the injury he was playing decent), zero minutes for him in the last two games despite being available.

    Squinting my eyes I can see some small improvements from Toppin (Noel botched a really nice pass from him),
    while Knox is back to unplayable.
    Randle and RJ weren’t spectacular but solid (RJ’s three assists sequence was nice), RJ has absolutely no weight with the referees, right now he needs to be killed to get to the line.

    Back to NY, be ready for the Cavs, who knows if Mitch could finally avoid to get drummed by Drummond?

  3. I have made a lot of bad decisions in my life but falling asleep at the start of the fourth quarter doesn’t appear to have been one of them…

  4. RJ Barrett in January covering 19 games

    3p% .353%
    TS% .532

    And that doesn’t include that he started off January weak. His last 8 games have been really strong.

  5. I fell asleep in the fourth quarter last night. Did we have any discussion about Mitch’s tweet following the game? He tweeted, and then quickly deleted, “One day they’ll let me play.” And one of The Strickland guys has a thread about some of Mitch’s bad defensive habits creeping back in during the Portland game. He’s still our best defender, but it seems like he and Thibs could start beefing soon. Which would not be ideal.

  6. I did like the one post move I saw by Obi before falling asleep. So there’s that. Plus RJ continuing to play well.

  7. The worst thing about Rivers having a big game was that it didn’t help us win, but solidified his position in the lineup ahead of Frank. IMO, Rivers is utterly pointless unless it leads to a trade, but I do not see a “Rivers” getting traded from NY at the deadline for an asset after he signed an attractive contract to be here and made a big deal about trying to help bring NY back. Rivers is a better overall player than the Frank of last year, but he does nothing really well and is as good as he’s ever going get. Frank deserves one last shot to show if he improved his offense in the offseason before we trade him or let him go.

  8. Deefense beat me to it. Big picture the most encouraging thing about this game is that RJ has been pretty damn good after that horrific slump a few weeks ago. Last 10 games:

    per-36 = 18.4/6.8/3.8 on 46.5/36.4/77.5 shooting splits.
    TS 54.8, USG 23.2, TO% 9.4
    And a +0.5 net rating in those 10 games even though the team has gone 3-7 in that stretch.

    10 games is a small sample but it’s not THAT small a sample.

    I was trying to poke around on B-R to see what players have averaged those #s in their 2nd year, and of course it’s all behind a paywall now. by the way Lebron Averaged 27/7/7 and Luka averaged 29/9/9 in their second years. those guys… man.

  9. Is Obi on some sort of minutes restriction? I don’t get why he’s not getting more run, even with his lack of D. If D is the K to TT, then Frank should be getting burn

  10. I fell asleep in the fourth quarter last night. Did we have any discussion about Mitch’s tweet following the game? He tweeted, and then quickly deleted, “One day they’ll let me play.”

    I didn’t understand that tweet.

    He’s in the starting lineup and playing plenty of minutes. If anything, he looks gassed at times (or lazy) and should probably be playing fewer minutes. If he’s talking about expanding his role on offense, maybe that makes some sense. But it’s not like we’ve seen any signs he should be posting up, creating off the dribble or jacking up 3s, He can’t even make a free throw. Maybe he was referring to the refs, but I don’t recall any obviously bad foul calls.

    It’s starting to get obvious this kid is a bit of a knucklehead and that’s why he dropped in the draft. There are too many little things slowly coming out over an above the flakiness pre draft.

  11. From the Macri newsletter today:

    According to multiple sources, not only Rose, but Ball and Oubre Jr are on the Knicks radar, in addition to Cavs center Andre Drummond and Rockets guard Victor Oladipo. I had previously heard DeMar DeRozan’s name come up in connection to New York, but have since heard that he is not a focus.

    You’ll immediately notice some commonalities. With the exception of Rose, who is 32, all four players are between 23 and 28 years of age and theoretically in or entering their prime. None of Cleveland, Houston and New Orleans are contending teams, and yet all have payrolls between $131 and $133 million. While Golden State may fancy itself a threat in the West, they have a league-high $174 million in committed money. Last but certainly not least, all of these guys are on expiring contracts.

    Here’s my guess: The Knicks are looking to capitalize on a team desperate to shed payroll and inherit talent for a cheaper price in assets than it otherwise would cost.

    I do not love any of those names.

  12. RJ’s showing really encouraging signs, his passing and rebounding are steady, his defense not discouraged when the shots don’t fall and he’s learning not to force himself out of bad shooting nights.
    He looks very mature and poised.

    I feel the seam vibes from IQ and Toppin, indipendently from the good or bad games, inexperienced but mentally presents.

    Mitch has improved a lot on defense, learning to limit his fouls and altering shots instead of going always for the highlights block, our defense suffers when he’s out.
    But in a lineup with Payton, RJ and Randle, his very limited range, abysmail FT shooting and a couple of other things on offense (he’s missing his shares of dunks/layup and gets stripped frequently) clog the paint and worsen the spacing.
    We need him to play all games like the second half vs the Warriors.

    I hate primadonnas, especially the “you haven’t won a fuck so shut up” ones,
    so for my taste if he’ll start bitching and feeling entitled we’ll have two months to trade him and get something good.

  13. According to multiple sources, not only Rose, but Ball and Oubre Jr are on the Knicks radar, in addition to Cavs center Andre Drummond and Rockets guard Victor Oladipo. I had previously heard DeMar DeRozan’s name come up in connection to New York, but have since heard that he is not a focus.

    1. Ball looked like he was making steady progress shooting, but this year he’s taken a big step backwards again. I’m not 100% convinced either way whether this year is just noise or whether it’s more reflective of the player he is. But he does quite a few things well. I could think of worse gambles than taking a look at Ball for a year while his market value is down as long as it doesn’t cost too much.

    2. Oladipo isn’t playing that badly, but two people whose opinion I respect that have watched him all season told me he’s lost a step in his explosiveness and won’t be the same player he was at his peak.

  14. We didn’t extend Frank. Unless everyone gets injured again and he goes supernova, he’s gone.

    Might be a trade. Might be FA. But unfortunately it just doesn’t make sense to play him anymore.

    As for the list of trade targets, we better be getting a 1st for those salary dumps. Yuck.

    I might trade Randle to Houston for Oladipo just to fuck with the Mavs chances.

  15. I could stretch and undestand if they’re salary dump from other teams, come to us with an asset attached and don’t cost us nothing real.
    Some of the names have salaries greater than our cap space so we’ll need to find a balance.

    I’ll probably give an audition to Ball if they trade him and a second rounder to us for DSJ and Payton, and this could be true for others,
    but as of now I don’t like none of those names as a long term contract.

  16. one other thing to consider with these rumors that if we basically punted on our 2nd rder…. and we’re trying to be buyers this year…. this could also mean bad things for our picks this year… meaning they could be used to get a vet….

    which would be pretty terrible…

  17. We didn’t extend Frank. Unless everyone gets injured again and he goes supernova, he’s gone.

    Might be a trade. Might be FA. But unfortunately it just doesn’t make sense to play him anymore.

    You might be right about the outcome, but imo not playing him is a bad idea when it’s Rivers in front of him. There’s no way I’d back off on Quickley’s minutes just to see what Frank can do offense after that long off season, but Rivers is not a good basketball player and he’s not going to get any better. Frank is already the better defender. If he has added a more consistent 3, he’ll be the better overall player with years more upside. The problem is the cost to keep him. But you have to know where he is now to trade him and get anything back or consider keeping him in free agency, It all may be moot though. I read that his friends in France want him out of NY anyway. That’s makes total sense. If I was Frank I would have asked for a trade the moment the pinheads went out and got Mudiay and were playing him ahead of me.

  18. If Alan’s right and we are considering these players because we think we can gain by helping some teams reduce salary, I’m not sure that’s being a buyer. Are we getting talent at distressed prices or are we taking in unwanted contracts? It looks more like the latter to me.

  19. Whatever you think of Frank and there’s no reason to turn this into a Frank thing, it looks now like he lost his minutes in the rotation because of injury, which is kind of a quintessential lame-ass coaching move. Certainly no one played their way into those minutes, so it’s not like Wally Pipp or anything.

    The weird loyalties and obsessions … the anti-rookie stuff … the idea that he’s somehow the conscience of basketball … all the other stuff … there’s just a lot there IMO not to like about Thibodeau. The Derrick Rose thing is just downright odd and weird. I’m probably never going to be sold at this point.

  20. Whatever you think of Frank and there’s no reason to turn this into a Frank thing, it looks now like he lost his minutes in the rotation because of injury, which is kind of a quintessential lame-ass coaching move. Certainly no one played their way into those minutes, so it’s not like Wally Pipp or anything.

    While I definitely agree that Frank should get minutes, the reason he HAD those minutes earlier is because Rivers was hurt. So he gained minutes because of someone else’s injury, and lost his own minutes because that person recovered and he himself got injured.

    Tell you what – I think he would 10000x better in the starting lineup than Payton.
    Then Rivers could get his minutes too.
    I really just don’t understand the Payton love from Perry on down to Thibs.

  21. The trade rumors are good fodder for obsessives like us who need something Knicks-related to talk about on a daily basis but it’s all pretty weak sauce at this point. Guys who other teams are definitely going to be looking to trade being “on the Knicks radar” just doesn’t really tell you anything. Monitoring potential trade possibilities around the league is part of the job description. I definitely think it’s reasonable to worry that our front office is going to foolishly throw assets at a pretty lame “playoff chase” but it probably really is too soon to start panicking.

  22. If there’s one thing the Knicks obviously need, it’s more offense. But the collection of players the Knicks have apparently talked about isn’t all scorers. But Drummond actually does provide scoring. I think he’d make our team much better. And the Cavs now have Allen from the Nets. It would be a sort of win now acquisition, but I think it would make the current team more fun to watch.

  23. The Mitch thing is pretty interesting because it really is unclear who he’s annoyed with. I guess the coaching staff but I think if you’d told any of us (and I assume Mitch) in preseason that he was averaging 30 minutes a game we would’ve been thrilled and assumed everything was hunky-dory. Best guess has to be assumed that it’s his role in the offense he’s worried about as it really has shrunk to almost comical levels. Among qualifying players his 11.5% USG is 7th lowest in the NBA and 2.5% Ast% is dead last. Both numbers are down quite a bit from already low levels last year. Also, though it’s not the kind of thing anybody here cares about Mitch has probably noticed that his PPG is actually lower this year despite all the extra minutes.

    It’s not entirely clear what Mitch wants to have happen here – they probably could be dialing up a bit more PnR stuff but for all the choppy Instagram videos of Mitch shooting 3s he still doesn’t even look at the basket if it’s as much as one dribble away. I definitely wouldn’t mind them running the occasional dribble hand-off look or quick hitting post-up for Mitch even as purely a developmental measure but right now Mitch catches the ball at the free throw line and rather than taking one power dribble and making a move to the cup he rotates in a circle until he can find someone to throw it to. I kind of doubt that’s by coaching staff dictate (we’ve seen Noel take the occasional runner or jumper) and given that those guys really do seem to have made good progress on Mitch’s foul issue I’m hesitant to be too critical.

  24. I’d like to see Mitch at least occasionally using like 1 dribble moves. They do not look at him on offense at all though, even when he has a guard switched onto him.

  25. Yeah I don’t really know what The Knicks should do right now as far as trades. I’d be down with getting rid of Elf and trying another starting PG out but who out there is really available that would be a clear upgrade. Ball has the development potential still, I guess, but the shooting is just as bad as Elf, so its not moving the needle. I’d much rather just give Quickley the starting job and see what happens. Then let Frank be the back up PG and shoot Elf to the moon. And I’m inclined to keep Randle for next year too, so that eliminates in my mind probably our biggest trade chip.

    The team is improved but the offense is ugly at times. We need more shooting. But right now unless we’re taking on one of these contracts to get back some future assets, I don’t really see the point in any of them.

  26. What’s happening to Mitch and RJ is all we care about at this point, right? Or are we not there yet?

    They seem to be doing a good job with RJ. Maybe that’s easier because RJ has viewed himself as the next Kobe since he was 12 and has a shield of self confidence made from vibranium

    Mitch on the other hand is a total mystery. I just don’t get it. He’s an amazing athlete and is highly coordinated in a lot of way. His hands are good, his body control is excellent, his lateral quickness is good, and obviously he can get off the floor very fast and very high. You would think you would try to do something to develop a guy like that into a little more of an offensive weapon.

    I can understand if Mitch is frustrated and wants to improve and do more than be a rim runner and lob artist.

  27. I mean in the Portland game Mitch was jumping up and down alone under the hoop more than once trying to get one of his teammates to throw him the ball for an easy bucket.

  28. Alan:
    I fell asleep in the fourth quarter last night. Did we have any discussion about Mitch’s tweet following the game? He tweeted, and then quickly deleted, “One day they’ll let me play.” And one of The Strickland guys has a thread about some of Mitch’s bad defensive habits creeping back in during the Portland game. He’s still our best defender, but it seems like he and Thibs could start beefing soon. Which would not be ideal.

    I’ve noticed that there are times when Mitch is watching his man but not the ball. Clyde needs to have a conversation with him about that

  29. I think Randle’s emergence as a point forward has come at Mitch’s expense to some extent. He’s basically taken over playmaking duties for Payton (which is what renders Payton such a bad fit in the starting lineup–he’s largely a one dimensional playmaker in a starting lineup in which playmaking duties belong to someone else), and without having looked at the numbers it definitely feels like fewer of his assists go to Mitch than Payton’s did last year. This makes sense intuitively, as a lot of Randle’s assists are on kick outs and handoffs, which aren’t conducive to the kinds of plays Mitch uses (dives to the rim, basically) to score.

    This isn’t a problem with any clear solutions, but so long as Payton is playing we’re really wasting the skills he does have by not running PNR with him and Mitch more frequently. As has been discussed ad nauseam, we should also be running more RJ/Mitch PNR.

    This is part and parcel of the more general skepticism I have about Randle as a core piece. You maximize his value by giving him a good share of playmaking duties, but that also means fewer such opportunities for other playmakers if you have them (which is very much up in the air for us, hence me not having much of a problem with Randle’s current role).

  30. What’s happening to Mitch and RJ is all we care about at this point, right? Or are we not there yet?

    We care about Quickley. We care about seeing if Toppin can eventually not make us weep when watching Hali highlights. We care about whether Randle’s improvement is real, and also what his value would be on a better team than the one we have now. So there are definitely interesting things to watch and root for/worry about.

  31. I would be all for starting Frank and letting RJ and Randle to 80% of the ballhandler responsibility, and Frank the other 20%. Better defender than Payton, better shooter than Payton. If you’re not going to start IQ, then Frank makes a lot more sense with that lineup where the crappy shot creation that Payton brings is even less useful than it would be with another group.

  32. Both Macri and some of the more traditional beat writers have implied that Mitch is still pretty immature and/or flaky. So none of this is all that surprising, even if it’s disappointing and/or concerning.

  33. Man, we are not in a position to be buyers particularly for guys like Oubre and Oladipo and Drummond. Oladipo had one awesome season 3 years ago when he put up a BPM of 5.8 but he hasn’t come close to that since and he currently has a BPM of -0.9. He also isn’t a good shooter so he doesn’t help our spacing at all.

    Oubre’s just a bad player, period. He puts up decent counting stats on bad teams but that’s about it. GSW is the best team he’s ever been on and he’s been garbage this season. He also can’t shoot so he doesn’t help our spacing at all.

    Drummond is fine but we already have 3 other centers on this team that do the same basic things he does so he would be pointless and would just take minutes away from Mitch. He also can’t shoot so he doesn’t help our spacing at all.

    Derrick Rose sucks after his mini-renaissance the last two years. His shooting numbers have cratered again this season hitting only 45% of his shots at the rim. He literally quit on the team last time he was here and, again, he can’t shoot so doesn’t help our spacing.

    Lonzo’s ok and he’s still young enough that he could improve but unless NOP is trading him for basically nothing than we’re overpaying. He also can’t fucking shoot and doesn’t help our spacing.

    The only trades we should be looking at are ones that ship out guys like Rivers, Burks, Payton, and whoever else for draft picks or young players that have shown any sort of promise. We shouldn’t be trading for players that Thibodeau wants because, as he showed in Minnesota, he’s a terrible judge of talent and can’t build a winning team as GM (he gave a max contract to Andrew fucking Wiggins!). If we’re actually looking to bring in players he wants than the entire front office and coaching staff should be fired today.

  34. We do care about Quckley but IQ has already established himself as a future All Star so there is less to talk about on that score.

    And yeah, Toppin. He’s no Tyrese. His athleticism on the court is becoming more evident to me at least.

    It’s becoming increasingly clear that Mitch isn’t going to make it in New York. Which sucks but which won’t entirely be the FO’s fault. (mostly though)

    Bracing myself for it.

    Also, all these trade ideas are really really stupid.

  35. They seem to be doing a good job with RJ. Maybe that’s easier because RJ has viewed himself as the next Kobe since he was 12 and has a shield of self confidence made from vibranium

    I definitely think this is a factor for Mitch. Most young guys you see pretty consistently doing 10% more than they should on offense. This hurts their production in the short-term but probably helps their development because they’re constantly stretching themselves and finding the exact limit of what they can and can’t do.

    Mitch has never done that – he has always stuck to exactly the thing he does better than just about anybody, which is catch the ball in the radius of the basket and dunk it. That definitely led to him being very productive right out of the gate but maybe it’s hurting his development. We can talk about the coaches and guys looking for him (and both things are valid) but he currently takes advantage of literally 0% of the opportunities available to him to stretch himself on offense (they do exist) and as long as that’s the case it’s hard for me to point the finger at everybody else.

  36. DRed:
    I mean in the Portland game Mitch was jumping up and down alone under the hoop more than once trying to get one of his teammates to throw him the ball for an easy bucket.

    Without watching a ton of film, it’s hard to tell how much of the issue with Mitch is defenses taking things away, how much is Mitch, and how much is our playmakers. It could be a little of everything.

    Frank would have found him because he’s never interested in anything other than getting rid of the ball. :-)

  37. thenoblefacehumper

    I agree with everything in your last post.

    To be clear though, assume we actually had a good PG and the playmaking shifted away from Randle a bit. That would be fine by me. I don’t think we are necessarily maximizing Randle’s value by allowing him to pile up assists. That’s just changing the boxscore numbers and who’s getting the credit. Personally, I’d way rather have Randle handle the ball less, focus on efficient scoring and rebounding and make a play if he gets doubled, He’d get fewer assists, but he’d have fewer TOs, and he and the team would be more efficient with a good PG running the show. I don’t care what his BPM is. I just want to use him right given who we have on the team and maximize that team output. For now, he has to make more plays.

  38. @Deeefense

    You seem to always just blow past this point when taking another swing at the individual-stats-bad piñata, but you do realize that if “using him right” resulted in less turnovers and more assists, it could actually result in his BPM (or whatever boxscore-based statistic you want to look away)?

    Maybe in places like the defunct espn comments section (RIP lol) where people find difficulty breathing through their noses, you could find people who just look at points/rebound/assists and ignore turnovers, but that certainly isn’t the case here (and likely not even really the case in more mainstream places as well at this point).

  39. RJ’s 3 point shot looked true last night. I can see All Star games in his future if this continues.

  40. To be clear though, assume we actually had a good PG and the playmaking shifted away from Randle a bit. That would be fine by me. I don’t think we are necessarily maximizing Randle’s value by allowing him to pile up assists. That’s just changing the boxscore numbers and who’s getting the credit. Personally, I’d way rather have Randle handle the ball less, focus on efficient scoring and rebounding and make a play if he gets doubled, He’d get fewer assists, but he’d have fewer TOs, and he and the team would be more efficient with a good PG running the show. I don’t care what his BPM is. I just want to use him right given who we have on the team and maximize that team output. For now, he has to make more plays.

    Sure, and Randle would have some value in that role, but he’d all of the sudden look way more like the kind of good scoring, good rebounding, no defense big that’s available on the cheap at any given time. Randle’s playmaking is what separates him from, say, Enes Kanter.

    That’s not a guy you can pay $20M AAV and expect to contend. We don’t have to use our imaginations here, you’re describing the 2018-2019 version of Randle. That guy was pretty good, but the difference between him and the Kanters of the world wasn’t nearly big enough to justify a contender paying him handsomely.

  41. You seem to always just blow past this point when taking another swing at the individual-stats-bad piñata, but you do realize that if “using him right” resulted in less turnovers and more assists, it could actually result in his BPM (or whatever boxscore-based statistic you want to look away)?

    The idea is to maximize team output.

    Randle has become a playmaker in NY because we have poor PG play and because we have so few good offensive options he gets double teamed a lot and can make an occasional play out of that. He’d probably only be a 3rd option on a really good team, never see a double team, and not be asked to make as many plays. We are in the unfortunate situation of asking him to do things he should NOT be doing only because we are so bad in other areas. If his BPM or whatever says doing more is making him a better player, that’s idiotic. He’s the same player with the same skills either way. His role on the team may just vary depending on the skills of the other players on the team and how they are trying to maximize the team output. That’s all I’m saying.

  42. I think Strat is exactly right about Mitch (see Strat, I’ll give you props if your take isn’t nuts). It’s eyetest, but watching the game it seems that smart and experienced centers (e.g., Gobert) are now staying home on Mitch, making passes to him harder to make. Of course they’re staying home because our guards suck at getting to the hole, so they have that luxury. I also think many of our players put their heads down on drives and don’t think about dump-offs once they start moving (Knox being the most egregious example). And as others have noted, Mitch hasn’t been stretching his wings (metaphorically) to try something new.

  43. That’s not a guy you can pay $20M AAV and expect to contend. We don’t have to use our imaginations here, you’re describing the 2018-2019 version of Randle. That guy was pretty good, but the difference between him and the Kanters of the world wasn’t nearly big enough to justify a contender paying him handsomely.

    I’m not sure what Randle is worth, but the fact that he’s capable of making plays out of a double team or off a drive makes him a better player than Kanter regardless of whether he’s piling up those extra assists in the boxscore or not. It means if you need him to do that for whatever reason (injury to another player, makeup of the team, in a specific lineup etc..) he can do it. Kanter cannot. That’s part of what you would be paying for. You aren’t just paying for his boxscore.

    I remember when D’Antoni asked Kobe to play PG for a few games because both Nash and the backup were hurt. Kobe showed he could get 10 assists a night if that’s what you wanted or needed. Jordan could have done the same thing if Pippen was out, but their role in the triangle was to score and for the playmaking to be more spread out.

  44. The idea is to maximize team output.

    You realize that “maximizing team output” is about scoring more points than you allow your opponent to score, right? And that’s directly related to turning possessions into points, forcing your opponent to turn fewer possessions into points, and creating a possession disparity between you and your opponent, right? And that’s measured by stats like TS% and TOV%, right?

    And how in baseball, “playing the right way” used to mean bunting and trying to steal third with two outs” when it really should have meant “avoiding easy outs that don’t lead to runs,” right? Like, you realize that when you say “playing the right way,” it means literally nothing to no one who can’t see the back of your marked-up diner napkin, right?

  45. some others have mentioned obi’s play of late before but if you exclude the first game of the season obi’s 2p fg% is 65%…. the thing that’s killing him right now is the lack of ftr (16% over the same span) which is directly related to a still too high 3pr (35%)…

    everything else actually looks pretty good so he’s definitely still got a chance if he can refocus his game in the paint area and mix it up inside.. he’s not even all that good from 3p territory to be shooting that much anyway…..

  46. @Deeefense

    I certainly understand your thesis of team output over individual output and agree with it to an extent, as I think almost everyone here does – the “knickerblogger bois just want to add up BPMs sight unseen” is certainly a strawman.

    I’m just saying that in your rush to gleefully bash any type of allocation of individual responsibility, you overlook (or just blow past) the fact increasing counting stats (i.e., more assists AND more turnovers) would not necessarily lead to the boxscore (or boxscore-based statistics) viewing a player more favorably.

    If “playing the right way” results in a Randle that’s slightly more efficient scoring the ball, but cuts just turnovers AND his assists in half, then his boxscore-based metrics would probably look even better, on the other hand, if it lead to just his assists getting cut in half, but his turnovers only decreasing by a quarter – then perhaps the “right way to play” isn’t actually more efficient in that instance.

    It’s certainly possible for any particular player to be able to increase their playmaking load (and apg) without also increasing their turnovers, but that should be praised! Doing more good stuff while not doing proportionally more bad stuff is great – but of course not everyone is capable of that.

    To use your MJ example, you say that he was coached to play in a particular way that limited his assists, but would lead to more efficient scoring – that kind of trade-off should also be captured by the boxscore!

  47. You realize that “maximizing team output” is about scoring more points than you allow your opponent to score, right? And that’s directly related to turning possessions into points, forcing your opponent to turn fewer possessions into points, and creating a possession disparity between you and your opponent, right? And that’s measured by stats like TS% and TOV%, right?

    Obviously. These stats are not disastrously wrong. They are simply not very accurate in many cases and pretty darn bad in a handful. I am describing one problem.

    To maximize the team level output it may be beneficial to reduce the role of some players and increase the role of others depending on their individual skills and the makeup of the team. That could impact some player’s individual stats negatively and others positively. Those individual fluctuations related to ROLE are not always captured properly by things like BPM, WS48, etc.. Those models can’t weed out what a player is capable of doing well from what his role on the team was (maybe he was asked to do too much and it hurt his stats, maybe he was doing less than he was capable of because of all the talent on the team, maybe he was benefitting or being hurt because of the skills or lack thereof of teammates ) .

    When Chris Bosh joined Miami he didn’t suddenly become a worse player than he was in Toronto. He was actually probably better at some things. His BPM and PER went down because his role was reduced and changed. I think you have to try to get past the numbers. We often do here anyway.

  48. I’m just going to assume that Mitch was making a bad joke and regretted it. Just like how he keeps asking opposing 5s to “stop being so tall” and “go guard somebody else” when they’re lining up for foul shots.

    Team looked pretty fucking tired last night. “No legs” in the 2nd half, like Clyde said, bricking shots off the front of the rim. Lot of reach in fouls they don’t normally make. Brain farts about having a foul to give, grabbers on transition when the team was back.

  49. That list of names is concerning but not surprising if you assume Rose’s mandate is not ‘a future we can believe in’ but is ‘a now Dolan isn’t embarrassed about.’

  50. Yeah, the altitude part of home court advantage hasn’t changed for Utah. They did look tired.

    What is going on in the stock market is one of the top 3 most insane things I have ever seen in the industry. Lot of people are going to lose a lot of money. And I know that’s a non sequitur but it’s truly incredible and the memes are amazing.

    Can someone explain to me what a dank meme is? I would have thought it would mean an old or stale or moldy meme but does it actually mean the opposite?

  51. I’ve been seeing some worrisome Derrick Rose rumors. Yikes! I would rather offer Randle, Burks’ expiring, Bullock’s expiring and both 1sts in this upcoming draft for Beal than do that. Quickley will NEVER see the floor if Rose brought Rose in lol. Me no likey.

  52. Meanwhile, I just saw Tommy Beer retweet something suggesting Steph Curry might want to come here next year? But phrased in a confusing way that made it unclear whether there are actual rumblings of this, or simply that execs think he should try to do that.

    Having Curry finally become a Knick at the age he’ll be next season would be so perfectly Knicks-y.

  53. djphan:
    some others have mentioned obi’s play of late before but if you exclude the first game of the season obi’s 2p fg% is 65%…. the thing that’s killing him right now is the lack of ftr (16% over the same span) which is directly related to a still too high 3pr (35%)…

    everything else actually looks pretty good so he’s definitely still got a chance if he can refocus his game in the paint area and mix it up inside.. he’s not even all that good from 3p territory to be shooting that much anyway…..

    The problem continues to be that if you exclude the first game of the season he’s still on like 90 minutes played total. We’re just trying to draw from such ridiculously small samples right now because his minutes and role are so tiny. Last night he had one (1) nice post move and one (1) smooth looking jumper and threw one (1) nice looking pass so everything is right in Obi-land today but who the hell can say anything based on that. The guy needs to play.

  54. It would be Knicks-y, but honestly, someone who’s still averaging over 28 ppg with near 40% from 3 and can actually pass would fill a whole bunch of glaring, gaping holes in this team. Instead of hoping Austin Rivers turns into Steph Curry for a half every 15 games or so, we’d have, you know, Steph Curry. Plus the guy’s eminently rootable.

    Ain’t gonna happen, but if it did I wouldn’t shed a tear.

  55. @Owen

    “Dank meme” is actually just a bunch of Germans thanking the memes as part of the meme magic ritual.

    But actually memes are dank like marijuana is dank – very strong smelling and potent (which, yea, implies that the marijuana stinks, but in a good way). In other words, memes are dank if they stank soooooo good

  56. The problem continues to be that if you exclude the first game of the season he’s still on like 90 minutes played total.

    you can infer some things in small samples… and the prudent approach is to wait but it’s not the same thing as saying we know nothing about obi at this time…

    and we do know some things about his game…. that’s because things like shotmix do converge in small samples… and that portends bad things…. but it’s also not too late for an intervention to occur or some light bulb to turn on for obi to change that… but make no mistake.. it is going to have to change….

  57. Yea, I’d love to speculate more about Obi, but just feels like a waste of breath (since posting is an aerobic exercise) until the sample size gets to a more reasonable size.

  58. @djphan

    Just curious, what’s your source for shot mixes converging relatively quickly? Would be interested to check it out

  59. If we’re still parsing the social media habits of young Mitch and trying to glean anything from them, he just posted to his IG story a clip of the Clippers swinging the ball around with the caption “ball movement”

    This was followed by a video of a Dodge pulling up behind a Lamborghini and doing a burnout.

  60. apropos of nothing, is anyone here paying attention to this gamestop shit? I’ve got such blog envy right now. If the Knicks ever get good and we get 2.4 million members, we should totally pump a stock up together.

  61. Hubert:
    apropos of nothing, is anyone here paying attention to this gamestop shit? I’ve got such blog envy right now. If the Knicks ever get good and we get 2.4 million members, we should totally pump a stock up together.

    Two of my former students, who are obviously gamers, DMed me on LinkedIn, to tell me that they were part of this. A new and better way to level up.

  62. apropos of nothing, is anyone here paying attention to this gamestop shit? I’ve got such blog envy right now. If the Knicks ever get good and we get 2.4 million members, we should totally pump a stock up together.

    There’s a subreddit called ‘Wall Street Bets’ that’s basically a large group of amateur day traders that share memes with one another. I started following it about a year ago and it was mainly about day trading Tesla and Nio stock. Over the past few months they started sharing a bunch of memes about investing in ‘zombie’ stocks like Blackberry, AMC, Blockbuster, and Gamestop. From what I can tell, none of this started with any kind of organized plan to pump and dump or for a short squeeze. It really began as an internet joke that morphed into a runaway train.

  63. I’m a little jealous. Like, I could have had a Lambo, but instead I argued with Bob Neptune.

  64. Owen:
    Yeah, I woke up this morning and three people had texted me about AMC. It’s a bubble.

    I mean, it’s all a bubble, innit?

  65. It is. It was.

    But running some of the numbers, this one is a little different. Going from 8 to 347, it just isn’t natural.

  66. Without watching a ton of film, it’s hard to tell how much of the issue with Mitch is defenses taking things away, how much is Mitch, and how much is our playmakers. It could be a little of everything.

    If your center is unguarded under the basket it is 0% his fault that he’s not being passed the ball. A huge man unguarded at the rim is the best shot in basketball. Obviously Mitch is limited in the types of shots he can take and make, but he is by far the best shot maker on the team and we should be trying to get him more shots on offense.

    as for his being immature, Mitch has been the best player on the Knicks for 3 years making 1.5 million a season. Taj Gibson makes more money than Mitch. Almost any player in his situation is going to be mad that he’s not getting points because points equals money in this league.

  67. Yeah, a lot of this Mitch stuff seems to be the epitome of “perfect is the enemy of good.” While there have been things I have not liked about his game this year (his free throw shooting has been atrocious) Mitch has still been either the best or second-best Knick this season while making a major improvement at being able to stay on the court (which has been a huge boon to the team on defense). And they do practically ignore him on offense, in part because they run the offense through Randle and obviously, Randle and Mitch ain’t running pick and rolls out there.

    We entered the season with a major question being, “Can Mitch actually play the whole game?” and he passes that test easily, and it’s, like, “Yeah, but what other faults can we find with him?”

  68. in before strat says something something bretton woods, zman asks what a stonk is, and jowles tells a rollicking story about doing lines with david wetherell’s niece outside a sparsely attended george gilder lecture at the las vegas convention center during comdex 2002

  69. I always thought the main reasons the knicks have the most valuable franchise in the nba is because of madison square garden, clyde – and us…

  70. Truly a sweet girl, bright too, but I try not to give any credibility to stories that inevitably resolve themselves with a polite “I swear this has never happened before” owing to the secondary effects of high-school-dealer-grade coke and, later, an unredeemed offer to hit up my Nokia (NYSE: NOK) next time she’s passing through Rhinebeck and maybe wants to go halfsies on a $7 latte at Bread Alone. But I’m sure that if anything like happened, I would definitely tell you. But it definitely didn’t, and I wouldn’t.


  71. Brian Cronin: We entered the season with a major question being, “Can Mitch actually play the whole game?” and he passes that test easily, and it’s, like, “Yeah, but what other faults can we find with him?”

    Is anyone actually looking to find fault with him though? This whole conversation originated because Mitch seems to be unhappy with how things are going. I think in general reviews of Mitch’s play have been very enthusiastic as usual, despite the fact that his per minute numbers are down pretty much all across the board. He’s getting plenty of praise for his play in his current role. But if he’s going to start carping for a bigger role then I think it’s fair to ask “based on what?” and understand that’s not the same thing as being critical of his current play.

  72. I’m not exactly sure what stonks are but i guess we can come up with something similar about the Knicks.
    Stocks+Knicks= Stinks
    I’ve bought many ARivers stinks yesterday during halftime.
    By the end of the game i was a rich man!

  73. If Haliburton hadn’t been breathtaking (especially on the game vs the Knicks) we’d been more optimistic about Obi but maaan…He looked so fast and smart and accurate with amazing body control that even if we had won that game we’d still crying for not picking him…
    I was deeply hurt for 2 days…

  74. It is so rare to find close to 100% consensus here on Knickerblogger, yet I’m not sure there’s a single person thus far who would argue now that we made the right call in picking Obi over Hali. I’m hoping the long game proves us wrong, but so far… sigh…

    (Though I do love Quickley, and believe there is no way we would have taken him if Hali was the pick at 8.)

  75. As for Mitch i think he should Learn and start taking post moves into games.
    It’s ridiculous to not have another “move” than the possible lob.
    A hook. A one dribble drive. A jumper. A fadeaway.
    It’s bad for his development and his psychology and it makes the team less dangerous offensively.
    There’s no need to become KDurant or ADavis in a day but remaining stagnant offensively don’t seem like a good idea…

  76. ESPN finally released Real Plus-Minus numbers for the season so far. It’s really, really noisy this early in the season (Patty Mills and Wayne Ellington are top 20 players so far, Anthony Davis is not). ESPN’s page for it is complete garbage, there’s no way to sort anything. I don’t know why it isn’t just added to their regular stats page. The first Knick on the list is Burks who’s ranked 88 overall with 0.99; Randle’s right behind him at 92 with 0.94. Quickley’s 3rd best on the team, 0.59. Those are the only 3 players with a positive RPM.

    Other Knicks of note: Mitchell Robinson -1.3; RJ Barrett -1.37; Obi Toppin -1.99; Knox -2.03.

  77. Back in the day I believe I partook of some Alaskan Thunder Stonk…austere and rustic, hints of ole tyme woodsman, musk ox, aurora borealis

  78. ptmilo:
    in before strat says something something bretton woods, zman asks what a stonk is, and jowles tells a rollicking story about doing lines with david wetherell’s niece outside a sparsely attended george gilder lecture at the las vegas convention center during comdex 2002

    This is a criminally underrated comment.

    Also, if I may meta-blog, people have been really good this season. “Invisible Sixth Man” will be a reference here for a long time.

  79. Just curious, what’s your source for shot mixes converging relatively quickly? Would be interested to check it out

    i don’t remember it’s been so long… but it’s pretty easy to prove to show that a given population has lesser variance than others if you know your way around numbers or excel…

  80. Bo Nateman gets the W on the coinage, a bit sad that Zzzman didn’t stick

  81. And they do practically ignore him on offense, in part because they run the offense through Randle and obviously, Randle and Mitch ain’t running pick and rolls out there.

    Silly question – why can’t Randle and Mitch run a pick and roll? Randle’s a good enough ballhandler. How many teams have a 4 and 5 that can guard that?

    Watching some of RJ’s shots over the last couple weeks, and the shot that stands out is his floater from 10 feet or so— he has really good touch on it now. Did he have that in his bag last year?

  82. I guess upside of the trade rumours are that they seemed to be on the basis that the team wants to take advantage of teams dumping cap space, as opposed targeting guys because they can help push for a playoff berth.

    On the game last night, I think a lot of that was on Thibs (aside Utah being, you know, a good team). Seemed way too slow to make a change when the tide turned.

    When it’s all said and done, I am personally not too concerned with the record this year. Just as long as we can move Payton and keep playing some semblance of NBA ball I am okay.

  83. Frank: Silly question – why can’t Randle and Mitch run a pick and roll?Randle’s a good enough ballhandler.How many teams have a 4 and 5 that can guard that?

    Watching some of RJ’s shots over the last couple weeks, and the shot that stands out is his floater from 10 feet or so— he has really good touch on it now.Did he have that in his bag last year?

    We ran the Randle PnR a few times in the Randle 9 ast near triple double. Randle botched the pass once and Mitch missed the shot a second time, if I recall correctly, both were definitely wide open. He also ran it with Noel once so maybe I’m confusing the attempts.

    Randle has been racking up assists but I’m not sure he can make the more advanced reads or passes out of the PnR if we ran it enough.

    RJ was pretty bad scoring from everywhere last year, so probably not.

  84. The War of the Roses:

    Leon Rose’s desire for a big name superstar versus Derrick Rose’s inherent shittiness.

  85. Fun fact of the day: Russell Westbrook has 163 points on 163 shots this season.

    Boy, did we dodge a bullet with that non-acquistion.

  86. wow, now they banned the group for violations of community guidelines. They’re saying it has nothing to do with fucking over wall street, it’s because they’re racist.

    The snake is now eating its tail.

  87. d-mar:
    Fun fact of the day: Russell Westbrook has 163 points on 163 shots this season.

    Boy, did we dodge a bullet with that non-acquistion.

    Sam Hinkie couldn’t lose on purpose as much as Westbrook is going to lose for Was over the next 3 yrs.

  88. Kevin Knox is the poster child for the holes in advanced all-in-one stats. He has to be one of the worst non-rookie rotation players in the NBA, yet his stats say quite mediocre rather than dumpster fire noxious. I guess you can say that he had some isolated good shooting games, but damn, he really sucks.

  89. If there was a fan reaction data base stat generator Knox would have easily been the King of OMG and WTF stats

  90. It is so rare to find close to 100% consensus here on Knickerblogger, yet I’m not sure there’s a single person thus far who would argue now that we made the right call in picking Obi over Hali. I’m hoping the long game proves us wrong, but so far… sigh…

    I think the trick, though, is that we all thought Obi was going to be gone by #8, so we never really debated it. I didn’t even include him in a poll of possible guys for the Knicks to draft. Had we thought he was a possibility, I’m sure someone would have supported it. But the Toppin experience was pretty much, “Holy shit, they’re going to trade up to get Obi fucking Toppin?” followed by, “Well, at least they didn’t trade up to get Obi Toppin” followed by, “How adorable is Obi Toppin’s family?”

  91. Watching some of RJ’s shots over the last couple weeks, and the shot that stands out is his floater from 10 feet or so— he has really good touch on it now. Did he have that in his bag last year?

    Pretty sure RJ and Rivers got together and performed a forbidden ceremony from the Malleus Maleficarum that stole Quickley’s floater so they could use it for themselves. Also explains why Quick couldn’t hit for shit yesterday.

  92. It’s true, there was little discussion of Toppin. I hardly knew who he was when we selected him. I still don’t understand why Knick’s management had the hots for him. I hope they are proved right, but it’s certainly an open question.

  93. Fun “Not Fun at all” Fact
    Right after the Sac-Nyk game YouTube proposed me a 1min predraft info video by Sacramento Kings of Obi Toppin…
    Fuccccck You Tube!!!!

  94. What is even the point of trading for Derek Rose? He doesn’t even pair up with our team well when healthy and on top of his game. We need outside shooters, not another guy whose game will make our spacing even more trash.

  95. I think Obi will turn out okay. He has to revamp his game, but the passing and court awareness on O give me some hope, as do his athletic gifts. His defense is actually very Amar’e-like….gets confused, spun around, out-first-stepped….but he’s displayed some good moves on O at all 3 levels. For example, I think it was last game when he went across the lane for a soft jump hook that looked like he shot it from 2 feet above the rim. If he beefs up his lower body a bit, works on his footwork, I could see him being a handful both facing up and with his back to the basket going across the lane. He seems habituated to some soft shit that worked in college that NBA bigs are chewing up and spitting out. But the talent and physical gifts are there.

  96. wow, now they banned the group for violations of community guidelines. They’re saying it has nothing to do with fucking over wall street, it’s because they’re racist.

    The snake is now eating its tail.

    i don’t think cause and effect (or retribution) care all that much about “fairness”…

    it’s been a while now since i’ve poked my nose in to the markets, but – so nice to see that hours and hours of tedious research are no longer needed…robinhood, reddit, facebook and twitter are all that’s required these days…

  97. Regarding Maxey vs. Quickley, I agree with those who feel that Maxey has more theoretical upside, but I think Quickley is more likely to reach his peak as a player. He has a very simple no-frills game…but it all starts with shooting. In today’s NBA, shooting is indispensable, especially for a PG. I think Quickley has the bare necessities to play PG…average court vision, average passing, average (maybe below average) handle, below average burst…but he’s comfortable with who he is and plays within himself. He’ll add strength and maybe get to the rim a bit more, but that won’t be where he makes his living. The kid can shoot and can put up lots of points in a hurry when he gets hot. So far he’s been streaky, but you can tell he’ll be a good shooter. He just has it.

    The underrated thing for me is his defense. He’s much better than I expected. He’s bigger and stronger than some reports made him out to be, and very long for his height. He’s very aggressive and knows angles and body positioning. Again, he uses his rather average tools very well in ways that don’t always show up in the box score. He cuts things off, helps and hedges, and contests without fouling.

  98. If anyone thinks Pops is overrated, look at what he’s doing this year with a team something like the Knicks, maybe a little bit better on paper but not much.

  99. If anyone thinks Pops is overrated, look at what he’s doing this year with a team something like the Knicks, maybe a little bit better on paper but not much.

    Oh man, I’d love to hear someone argue against Pops’ greatness.

  100. Brian Cronin: Oh man, I’d love to hear someone argue against Pops’ greatness.

    I won’t debate Pops’ acumen but to suggest the Knicks talent is on par with the Spurs…now please step away from the hash pipe…

  101. Another good Dallas’ loss, Gobert with a nice game :-)
    Impressive game for Wiseman, Pop’s has a miracle running, pressure in Charlotte to start Lamelo (??).

    I don’t fully buy the sources (Ringer’s O’Connor and Harper from the Athletics), but, if they’re right, the playoffs bound Cavs will buy out Drummond so he could sign with the Nets.

    Historically, savings on buyouts have been so insignificant that I still don’t buy why you let a useful player free and help rivals… Nets and Cavs could meet in the playoffs, why reinforce them? They’ll be really scary with Drummond…

  102. Drummond would be a good fit in Brooklyn. Not sure if I would feel great as a fan about that. Or Adam Silver.

    Signs of life from Edwards.

    Zion had a great night from the field that will crush his adjusted plus minis looks like.

    And yeah, that Spurs starting lineup- 35-59 from the field.

  103. If the Mavs can figure out how to lose a few more games in a row I think that will start messing with their locker room.

    It’s fun to really hope another team loses for a change!

  104. Looks like all of the top 3 draft picks are starting to show out. Wiseman going 3-3 from deep suggests that he’s more than a low post guy. LaMelo showing some restraint, 1 TO in 22 mins (albeit a game low -24 /-). Edwards with 25 pts on 19 shots, 5-8 from 3. Okoro also with a nice game.

    This may turn out to be quite the draft class.

  105. pepper: I won’t debate Pops’ acumen but to suggest the Knicks talent is on par with the Spurs…now please step away from the hash pipe…

    Haven’t smoked hash in decades, where can I get some?

  106. There’s nothing wrong with short selling. In fact, I think it has an important role in keeping markets more efficient. However, Wall St has long been the master of using spin and fake news to drive agendas that ultimately hurt the “little guy”. IMO, that’s been especially true of a handful of short sellers. So to see these little guys joining forces to specifically target companies with large short positions, force a short squeeze, and give it to the Wall St big shots right where the sun never shines has been entertaining and perhaps evidence of Karma.

  107. TopOaf

    I understand everything you are saying and generally agree with it. The difference (or maybe not) is that I think role DOES often impact the bottom line stats numbers. It’s not always an equal tradeoff between doing less of one thing and more of another/more efficient at another etc… So I think you have to subjectively analyze role and adjust your thinking at times. I also think at the team level, sometimes if an individual does less (and his BPM suffers a little), the team does better because it creates even better opportunities for others. I don’t think we are really disagreeing.

  108. Guys, i’ve gone back to only lurking, because west coast trips are not for me, the games start at 3AM here in Portugal.
    And sadly we’re on top of the pandemic numbers, leading the world in deaths by 1M population for 3 of the last 4 days. We’re doing worst than Italy in the beginning, but as we only have 10M population, and the totals aren’t so impressive as other countries, like the US and the UK, we’re not on the news (i think), but the status here it’s catastrophic.
    Maybe in some weeks i get back to be active on the best Knicks forum of all.
    In the meantime, it would say a lot about Leon Rose if we parted with an asset, no matter how low value, for any of the players Alan mentioned.

  109. Guys, i’ve gone back to only lurking, because west coast trips are not for me, the games start at 3AM here in Portugal.

    real fans gladly suffer the effects of chronic sleep deprivation to watch a lottery team get blown out by the Kings

  110. cybersoze:
    Guys, i’ve gone back to only lurking, because west coast trips are not for me, the games start at 3AM here in Portugal.
    And sadly we’re on top of the pandemic numbers, leading the world in deaths by 1M population for 3 of the last 4 days. We’re doing worst than Italy in the beginning, but as we only have 10M population, and the totals aren’t so impressive as other countries, like the US and the UK, we’re not on the news (i think), but the status here it’s catastrophic.
    Maybe in some weeks i get back to be active on the best Knicks forum of all.
    In the meantime, it would say a lot about Leon Rose if we parted with an asset, no matter how low value, for any of the players Alan mentioned.

    Stay safe Cyber!

    I hope the vaccine campaign will finally stall the spread of the virus and let everyone find relief, it’s been a long, sad, painful year…

  111. there’s usually one or two “stalls” at the local sesh (cannabis “farmer’s market”) selling hash…

    the people selling it usually look like they cooked that shit up in their bathtub (you know, I’m not really sure how hash is made, I don’t think I really even care – was definitely a big treat when I was a kid though)…yes, appearances do matter :)

    so many other equally potent goodies available though these days, no real need to go that route…

    usually I either eat a gummy, take a droplet of tincture or puff on a pre-roll…got some “moon rocks” (weed, weed distillate, and kief) though that I’d like to enjoy, need to look at picking up a nice sherlock holmes or maybe a gandalf pipe to smoke on it…

    got a bong stored away, but, thinking my bong days are behind me…

  112. It’s still early, but Randle is now tied for 10th in the league in VORP, which is hard to wrap my head around.

    What do you reasonably trade him for now? I’m sure the FO doesn’t want to trade him, but maybe a top-7 pick or a legitimately good, young player would turn their heads?

    It’s a real shift to start thinking about building around him rather than or in tandem with RJ/Mitch.

  113. oh man, just saw hiro is heading home to pitch…one of the slowest pitchers I’ve ever seen on the mound, but, really enjoyed watching him work…

    he was a good yankee…

  114. I’ve been blessed through the virus. Because of my first responder status I’ve been able to snag a vaccine.

    Middle of December my family had a scare. My sister got it and two of her children did as well. My mother nannies them during the day and somehow being in the house with my sick sister and holding a baby that had it she never contracted it. I found that to be unbelievable. My parents are finally getting vaccinated soon. Hopefully this is the beginning of the end of this shitshow.

  115. It’s a real shift to start thinking about building around him rather than or in tandem with RJ/Mitch.

    I feel like you can’t build around all three of those guys. If Randle is going to be a long-term piece — and I’m not sure he should be, but I also don’t know what we could trade him for — we need more shooting, particularly a stretch 5 rather than a guy like Mitch who at the moment has no range.

  116. geo:
    there’s usually one or two “stalls” at the local sesh (cannabis “farmer’s market”) selling hash…

    the people selling it usually look like they cooked that shit up in their bathtub (you know, I’m not really sure how hash is made, I don’t think I really even care – was definitely a big treat when I was a kid though)…yes, appearances do matter :)
    so many other equally potent goodies available though these days, no real need to go that route…
    got a bong stored away, but, thinking my bong days are behind me…

    some of my fondest hash memories are back when I was working in europe and didn’t want to fly home over the weekends and inevitably would decide “oh…may as well go to amsterdam for the weekend” and I had my favorite coffee shop there and the owner would give me stories of his buying trips to afghanistan and proudly sample the hash he brought back…but yeah..those days and the bong days are well in the rear view mirror…bummer…

  117. Alan: I feel like you can’t build around all three of those guys. If Randle is going to be a long-term piece — and I’m not sure he should be, but I also don’t know what we could trade him for — we need more shooting, particularly a stretch 5 rather than a guy like Mitch who at the moment has no range.

    I’d like to see a few more lineups with Randle at the 5, if nothing to get a sense of how the offensive end would be (and to test if they can be reasonably solid on defense).

  118. ess-dog:
    It’s still early, but Randle is now tied for 10th in the league in VORP, which is hard to wrap my head around.

    What do you reasonably trade him for now? I’m sure the FO doesn’t want to trade him, but maybe a top-7 pick or a legitimately good, young player would turn their heads?

    It’s a real shift to start thinking about building around him rather than or in tandem with RJ/Mitch.

    would any other front office in the nba actually make a plan to build around Julius Randle as a centerpiece…seems like a stretch…

  119. geo:

    got a bong stored away, but, thinking my bong days are behind me…

    I recently invested in the Volcano and it has been super so far. Extremely sci-fi to inhale vapor out of a bag, plus all the health benefits of not smoking.

    That said, cannot go wrong with a Gandolf pipe either.

  120. bidiong the not so great: My mother nannies them during the day and somehow being in the house with my sick sister and holding a baby that had it she never contracted it. I found that to be unbelievable

    Lady Jowles’s boss apparently didn’t get it, but her husband and stepdaughter did. Two negative tests, but showing symptoms. Again, unbelievable.

  121. bidiong the not so great: bidion

    Similar story here: our nanny tested positive and developed symptoms. She worked the day before getting sick. My wife and I tested negative (our child didn’t get tested). I haven’t had an antibodies test since to check if I was asymptomatic before, but strange still.

  122. oh man, just saw hiro is heading home to pitch…one of the slowest pitchers I’ve ever seen on the mound, but, really enjoyed watching him work…

    he was a good yankee…

    It’s downright infuriating that the Steinbrenner kids won’t go into the luxury tax. This team’s window is now and there’s never any certainty about how long that will last. Tanaka would fit perfectly in our current rotation of “Gerrit Cole and 4 dice rolls” and he wanted to come back.

  123. I go back and forth on trading Randle.

    On the one hand, I do think Toppin could be good and replace him. As some have pointed out, Randle might be good now but he may not be the best person to build around. And Toppin is showing me some stuff with his better than expected defense and passing and overall energy. Maybe he doesn’t TOPPIN out as good as Randle is now but maybe he can be a better “fit” for a starting five with RJ and Mitch and can still be a decent starter.

    But then again, Randle is 26 and he’s legit now playing like the best player we’ve had on this team since peak Melo/Chandler. For a franchise that hasn’t had an all star level player in forever and we have his team option…it might be worth keeping him. If we resigned him after next season for similar money for 4 years, we’d get him for his entire prime. That’s nothing to sneeze at. People love draft picks because they aren’t real players who can disappoint. Randle probably isn’t netting you higher than the 12th pick if you’re lucky. Is that theoretical player really going to end up being better than RAndle is now and will be for the next 4 years? Plus, Randle could look even better If RJ improves the 3 point shooting and Mitch can expand his offensive game a little and get better outside shooting.

    I just don’t know what the right move is.

  124. I found this part of that article odd, “This season, though, Randle has jacked his assist rate all the way up to 28.6 (TWENTY-EIGHT POINT SIX!) percent, giving him the eighth-highest single-season rate for any player with a center designation since the 1976 NBA-ABA merger.”

    Randle is obviously a big, but he’s also obviously not a center, so…huh? It’s a minor point and doesn’t really change the article at all, it just struck me as odd.

  125. It’s downright infuriating that the Steinbrenner kids won’t go into the luxury tax. This team’s window is now and there’s never any certainty about how long that will last. Tanaka would fit perfectly in our current rotation of “Gerrit Cole and 4 dice rolls” and he wanted to come back.

    It’s down to just one kid now, right? RIP Hank. Or Hal. Never could tell them apart. Either way, yeah, we have the worst ownership in the sport. They need to sell.

    I think you need to brace yourself for something that no one is talking about yet, but actually feels inevitable: they’re going to choose between paying Torres and Judge. And Judge will probably get traded bc paying Stanton $25mm to DH sucks.

    PS remember when everyone bashed Derek Jeter for dumping the worst contract in the sport on his former team? He looks like the major winner of that trade now.

  126. Brian Cronin: Randle is obviously a big, but he’s also obviously not a center, so…huh? It’s a minor point and doesn’t really change the article at all, it just struck me as odd.

      

    I think it speaks more to what constitutes being a C on offense these days and how different that is from the past.

  127. How comical is it to hear Yankee fans whine about their ownership/management being “the worst” when they are penciled into the post-season and have one of the highest payrolls in the league every year? Awww, poor babies, they might not be guaranteed World Series win #28, waaaaahhh!!!

  128. PerverseOsmosis: I recently invested in the Volcano and it has been super so far. Extremely sci-fi to inhale vapor out of a bag, plus all the health benefits of not smoking.

    I used one some years back. Still don’t like it as much as ingesting.

  129. How comical is it to hear Yankee fans whine about their ownership/management being “the worst” when they are penciled into the post-season and have one of the highest payrolls in the league every year? Awww, poor babies, they might not be guaranteed World Series win #28, waaaaahhh!!!

    As a percentage of revenue, the Yankees have been 28th-30th in payroll since the next generation of Steinbrenners took over. In other words, they are not spending the money Yankee fans are giving them. Sounds like a pretty fair grievance to me.

  130. I recently invested in the Volcano and it has been super so far.

    the volcano is a really nice piece of gear – very very effective :)

    my only issue with vaping on flower is that it can get really expensive fast…without question – consuming flower is probably the most costly way of using cannabis…

    i was into the wax vaping (used pens) for a bit, but – it just gets really messy…i always laugh thinking of those folks who have those elaborate wax gear sets that require the use of a mini blow torch to get high…seriously, i can’t think of anything less conducive to kicking back than holding a blow torch in my hand while get faded…

  131. As a percentage of revenue, the Yankees have been 28th-30th in payroll since the next generation of Steinbrenners took over. In other words, they are not spending the money Yankee fans are giving them. Sounds like a pretty fair grievance to me.

    Yup. This is a team that makes their fans pay more than everyone else. They should either be spending more than everyone else, or putting their prices in line with the average cost.

  132. Call me old school but I still just love rolling up a J.

    not at all just old school, the whole process is extremely relaxing (grinding, rolling, licking :), and lighting up)…maybe not exactly the healthiest endeavor, but hell just stepping out the front door these days comes with its own fair share of risk…

    i don’t know, if anything will get me off the sidelines regarding active investing again – it just may be the federal acceptance of cannabis as just another consumer ill like alcohol, tobacco and gambling that inspires me to dig deeper in to those stocks and get involved…

    i could never see myself investing directly in to Altria (MO) or Philip Morris (PM) – but, i’d be cool owning some Blue Dream or OG Kush related stuff :)

  133. brutal choice – but, if i had to choose one: i’m keeping torres over judge…

    I wasn’t happy with the addition of stanton – especially after the issue with ellsbury…i mean, sure when stanton is healthy can help carry a ballclub – but – if anything has been demonstrated over the last couple of decades in baseball over and over again is that you can find ways to replace the value of one big bat…

    very happy we kept lemahieu…i wish i was more excited about german coming back…

    i’m okay with rolling with sanchez for another season…i think i actually trust higashioka more though right now…plus, maybe siegler has made a dramatic improvement at the plate…

  134. Hubert: Yup. This is a team that makes their fans pay more than everyone else. They should either be spending more than everyone else, or putting their prices in line with the average cost.

    How do the Yankees “make” their fans pay? Why not just not buy what they’re selling?

    As Fugazi once said:
    “Never mind what’s been selling
    It’s what your buying”

    :-)

  135. Brian Cronin:
    I found this part of that article odd, “This season, though, Randle has jacked his assist rate all the way up to 28.6 (TWENTY-EIGHT POINT SIX!) percent, giving him the eighth-highest single-season rate for any player with a center designation since the 1976 NBA-ABA merger.”

    Randle is obviously a big, but he’s also obviously not a center, so…huh? It’s a minor point and doesn’t really change the article at all, it just struck me as odd.

    Maybe a reference to one of the “notes” in the article?

    One of them said:

    “Randle has played 10 percent of his minutes this season at center, per Basketball-Reference.com.”

    (I couldn’t find that number on Basketabll Reference, maybe it’s behind the paywall)

  136. I think the harshness of the penalties on exceeding the third luxury cap limit ($250 million this year) make it unreasonable for an owner to exceed it unless extremely unusual circumstances are at hand. However, yeah, I think it is mostly just unjustified frugality that keep the Yankees below $210 million.

    The issue there, though, is that while yes, I’m all in on “The Yankees should spend more” (their current payroll is lower than their 2003 payroll, while income has exploded in the eighteen years since then), I will concede that, hey, at least they spend $210 million. That’s more than most other teams are willing to spend, even when they’re rich, too.

  137. gonna head to amazon soon to order my gandalf pipe – i got one for you guys:

    i’d like to also order a short 3 book (or so) series i haven’t enjoyed already…recently finished The Hunger Games, which i absolutely loved…

    right now getting ready to re-read Darkly Dreaming Dexter (i’ve gone through about a six or so of the series) – any suggestions for an interesting book series:

    something that perhaps ties in with a movie or tv show would be cool…hmmmmm, kind of wish there was a Spartacus: Blood and Sand book tie in :P

    just kidding, slightly…

    i heard really good things about both the Odd Thomas and Wheel of Time series…Ringworld seems like it might also be interesting…

  138. geo: i’d like to also order a short 3 book (or so) series i haven’t enjoyed already

    If you haven’t read it, the Alexandria Quartet by Lawrence Durrell is kinda amazing. The language is just luscious – a bit purple in places but mostly gorgeous, especially the first novel (Justine). Definitely fun to read while high IIRC. There’s a movie version of Justine, but I don’t know if it’s any good.

  139. Now that I think of it there’s a TV tie-in too. The author is a character in the very fun and quirky Durrells in Corfu series which is based on his famous naturalist brother’s memoirs about their expat family life in Greece.

  140. I loved the Gerald Durrell books when I was little kid. But Holy Shit do they not translate well. I can’t recommend them unless they’re to be used in a class on white privilege. It’s a shame, because they were also very funny, swashbuckling, real-life natural history jungle adventures.

  141. I go back and forth on trading Randle.

    I think we should try to make the team better in sensible ways.

    If we can bring in a player that makes us better by trading Randle (even potentially with another asset), we should do it. But I don’t think it should be some kind of goal to trade him unless as the season progresses it becomes clear that Toppin is going to become the better player and Randle can be moved without hurting the team much short and long term.

    Honestly, I’m getting more open to the idea of trading Mitch instead. We all know what his “potential” is, but the truth is he hasn’t improved much on offense in 3 years, is a bit of a flake, and we have a backup that does many of the same things on defense.

    Let’s say we traded Mitch and a pick (or picks) for Beal, and moved Nerlens to the starting lineup. The team would still be very young, still have plenty of upside, and be way better overall. We don’t have to (and imo shouldn’t) keep thinking about trying to maximize some fantasy future 5-6 years from now if we can get better now, remain young, and still have many ways to keep getting better in coming years.

    At this point I’m sure Thibs knows a lot more than me about Mitch’s flakiness and offensive development. So I trust they know what’s he’s worth. But if he’s not really developing much, imo he’s expendable for the right player.

  142. Hubert: As a percentage of revenue, the Yankees have been 28th-30th in payroll since the next generation of Steinbrenners took over. In other words, they are not spending the money Yankee fans are giving them. Sounds like a pretty fair grievance to me.

    Yup. This is a team that makes their fans pay more than everyone else. They should either be spending more than everyone else, or putting their prices in line with the average cost.

    OMG so the fans pay more and they have more fan buy-in so are they entitled to a championship franchise????? Do you even realize how fucked up that sounds?!!! Never mind, it’s always been the case that Yankees fans think they are the Harlem Globetrotters and the rest of the teams are various versions of the Washington Generals.

  143. geo: the volcano is a really nice piece of gear – very very effective :)

    my only issue with vaping on flower is that it can get really expensive fast…without question – consuming flower is probably the most costly way of using cannabis…

    Here is my way to conserve with flower:

    I take the post-volcano flower, throw it into a Magical Butter machine (their name, not mine), wait 8 hours and end up with adequate edible butter.

    Also, I know someone else in this thread has hotknifed hash/ wax.

    Also, also Knickerblogger is a hilarious website to participate in.

  144. Z-Man don’t go having a breakdown over this.

    Yes, as a Yankees fan, I feel entitled that our team should spend money at a rate commensurate with their revenue advantage. So what?

  145. Btw Steve Cohen on twitter boasting that he beat down the little guy after changing the rules is not exactly a good look for the Mets owner.

  146. Yes, as a Yankees fan, I feel entitled that our team should spend money at a rate commensurate with their revenue advantage. So what?

    I read Z-Man’s outraged rhetorical question a bunch of times to make sure I wasn’t missing something. Yeah, when you fund the biggest cash cow in American sports I don’t think it’s outrageous to suggest you should expect a reasonable amount of reinvestment in the team.

  147. Hubert: Yes, as a Yankees fan, I feel entitled that our team should spend money at a rate commensurate with their revenue advantage. So what?

    No biggie, it just makes you a proponent of a system that is rigged heavily in favor of big market franchises with all kinds of built-in advantages. You believe that it’s okay for some teams being permanently advantaged over others, especially in that they can buy their way out of horrific management decisions, e.g. G. Stanton. The comical part is that even with those advantages, they can’t seem to figure out how to build a perennial champion.

    You don’t have to believe me, but I’ve never cared much about how much the Mets spend or don’t spend. I do care about when they make stupid management decision, e.g. Robbie Cano. I just can’t imagine myself whining that my team doesn’t outspend others proportional to their team’s income or their owner’s wealth when they are spending up to a luxury tax level specifically agreed upon by owners to foster some level of parity. Sound rather petty to me.

  148. Let me clarify that I would care if the Mets spent less in actual dollars as opposed to proportionally as you suggest. That’s not the case here.

  149. No biggie, it just makes you a proponent of a system that is rigged heavily in favor of big market franchises with all kinds of built-in advantages.

    We are asking for the Yankees to not be dead last in revenue:payroll. Is the difference between them not re-signing Tanaka, and re-signing him and incurring a luxury tax penalty of about $4M the difference between a perfectly functioning egalitarian system, and a “rigged” system?

  150. I think I hear Strat frantically thumbing through his yellow-covered Austrian economic Cliff’s notes to find appropriate references…

  151. Btw Steve Cohen on twitter boasting that he beat down the little guy after changing the rules is not exactly a good look for the Mets owner.

    The Mets are also on the verge of signing loudmouth Trumper asshole Trevor Bauer to a huge contract, thus putting together a truly terrifying starting rotation. The days of the lovable underdog Mets who punch up at everybody else are over.

    I’m chill with it.

  152. thenoblefacehumper: We are asking for the Yankees to not be dead last in revenue:payroll. Is the difference between them not re-signing Tanaka, and re-signing him and incurring a luxury tax penalty of about $4M the difference between a perfectly functioning egalitarian system, and a “rigged” system?

    Lol the Yankees are not dead last in anything. Looking at it that way is so freaking bizarre. They have the second-highest payroll in baseball, a tiny bit behind the Dodgers. Their payroll is 3 times higher than all of the bottom 10 teams. As a Mets fan, even with our new super-rich owner, I can’t imagine whining that they haven’t spent enough relative to their balance sheet or revenue when they are at #4 in total payroll and dwarfing the bottom half of the league.

  153. JK47: The Mets are also on the verge of signing loudmouth Trumper asshole Trevor Bauer to a huge contract, thus putting together a truly terrifying starting rotation. The days of the lovable underdog Mets who punch up at everybody else are over.

    I’m chill with it.

    There’s a difference being chill with it (as fans we have no control over such things) and whining when they are not outspending every team in the league. Again, it would be different if they were not in the top-10 or something silly like that.

  154. Raven:
    I think I hear Strat frantically thumbing through his yellow-covered Austrian economic Cliff’s notes to find appropriate references…

    I’ll take subjective theory of value off the board to keep it interesting for him.

  155. Lol the Yankees are not dead last in anything. Looking at it that way is so freaking bizarre. They have the second-highest payroll in baseball, a tiny bit behind the Dodgers.

    I suppose you have the same expectations for things like charitable giving and worker pay for Jeff Bezos as you do for the owner of your local bodega. That’s not a perspective I share.

    To be clear, you have no problem with the Steinbrenners using their market/branding advantage. You just think they should use it to pocket some extra millions, whereas I think they should use it to put the best possible product on the field.

  156. No biggie, it just makes you a proponent of a system that is rigged heavily in favor of big market franchises with all kinds of built-in advantages.

    Yes.

    You believe that it’s okay for some teams being permanently advantaged over others,

    Yes.

    The comical part is that even with those advantages, they can’t seem to figure out how to build a perennial champion.

    That’s what’s annoying! They’re forgoing those advantages to level the playing field. What is this shit, chivalry? fuck that, King Arthur.

  157. thenoblefacehumper: I suppose you have the same expectations for things like charitable giving and worker pay for Jeff Bezos as
    you do for the owner of your local bodega. That’s not a perspective I share.

    To be clear, you have no problem with the Steinbrenners using their market/branding advantage. You just think they should use it to pocket some extra millions, whereas I think they should use it to put the best possible product on the field.

    I don’t get off on bitching about how rich people don’t spend enough on the millionaires they employ for my entertainment, especially when they are outspending other teams by more than threefold. Whether rich owners choose to pocket the money or donate it to a charitable foundation or buy new cars for their ushers is their business. I’m fine with debating the merits of particular moves, but not out of a sense of elitist entitlement as a fan. Maybe it’s just semantics, but I think it’s different to say that they should have kept Tanaka because it was a good strategic move than to say that they should have kept Tanaka because they make a lot of money and as a fan I’m entitled to more than what fans of other teams are entitled to.

  158. I don’t get off on bitching about how rich people don’t spend enough on the millionaires they employ for my entertainment, especially when they are outspending other teams by more than threefold. Whether rich owners choose to pocket the money or donate it to a charitable foundation or buy new cars for their ushers is their business.

    I cannot relate at all to thinking there should be some kind of arbitrary limit to the advantage owners of large market teams have, BUT the limit should only apply to their ability to sign players and nothing else. So they should be free to use the advantage to buy a fourth yacht, but not to try to make their baseball team as good as possible.

    Maybe it’s just semantics, but I think it’s different to say that they should have kept Tanaka because it was a good strategic move than to say that they should have kept Tanaka because they make a lot of money and as a fan I’m entitled to more than what fans of other teams are entitled to.

    In my very first comment on the matter I said “Tanaka would fit perfectly in our current rotation of ‘Gerrit Cole and 4 dice rolls'”

  159. Hubert: Yes.

    Yes.

    That’s what’s annoying! They’re forgoing those advantages to level the playing field. What is this shit, chivalry? fuck that, King Arthur.

    Appreciate the honesty. As I said, it’s no biggie, just emblematic of why Yankees fans are so reviled…and why non-Yankees fans get a kick out of seeing them suffer when anything less than a championship is a failure and hearing them bitch at ownership that the other 29 teams drool over because they don’t have five Cy Young winners in the rotation and that having Mariano Rivera as a closer is their birthright. Same with the Celts and Lakers, but at least there’s a hard salary cap to keep them from signing every superstar in the league.

  160. Life long Yankees fan. Not proud of it. Can’t defend it. Understand why they’re easy to hate and agree they’re sometimes bad for baseball. Can’t help it. It’s a medical condition.

  161. another lifelong yankee fan…I take exception to the sweeping generlization of all of us being whining entitled brats…i never felt that way….nor did I perceive other yankee fans like that..i sat throught a lot of painful seasons pre and post steinbrenner and didn’t feel like we were supposed to win..fuck…we were pretty crappy for alot of those years…this whole excellence bullshit came after george…

    .perhaps since that span in the late 90’s with Torre…the new jack yankee fans are like that…but the whole rant of us being whiners and expecting nothing less than a championship seems to be due to a jealous babbling of the fan of a team who hasn’t won shit in 35 years….

  162. and hearing them bitch at ownership that the other 29 teams drool over

    lol there are 0 teams drooling over the possibility of having whichever Steinbrenner kid didn’t die in 2020 as their owner.

    This whole “who cares about percentage of revenue, it’s total dollars that matter” is a weird argument to make on this blog. You’re essentially the guy in 2006 who doesn’t understand why anyone would complain that Kobe Bryant scored 28 pts on 35 shot attempts. We should just be happy bc he was the highest scorer of the game.

  163. In Greek soccer usually the team with the biggest budget wins the championship easily and many of the times even unfairly by rigged refs and other great tricks.
    Olympiakos F.C. has won the 20 of the last 24 championships.
    It’s pathetic…
    Most fans of the team are so spoiled that they don’t give a shit about competition, performance, entertainment or fairness.
    They’re just Win Junkies…
    It’s ridiculous

  164. i’ve told the story a million times, but – the short version is, got a tv for my b-day in ’75…just got used to watching more shows on channel 11 wpix than channel 9 wor-tv…came for abbott & costello and stayed for the scooter and bill white…

  165. pepper:
    another lifelong yankee fan…I take exception to the sweeping generlization of all of us being whining entitled brats…i never felt that way….nor did I perceive other yankee fans like that..i sat throught a lot of painful seasons pre and post steinbrenner and didn’t feel like we were supposed to win..fuck…we were pretty crappy for alot of those years…this whole excellence bullshit came after george…

    .perhaps since that span in the late 90’s with Torre…the new jack yankee fans are like that…but the whole rant of us being whiners and expecting nothing less than a championship seems to be due to a jealous babbling of the fan of a team who hasn’t won shit in 35 years….

    Don’t even bother objecting, Z-Man’s just taking the piss. who cares?

    I certainly don’t feel entitled to a championship every year. But when your window is open, and you let a pitcher you need go back to Japan to avoid a $4mm tax, yeah I feel entitled to bitch a about ownership.

  166. As most here know Im a huge Yankees fan and while I do at times feel frustrated with Hal reading Hubert and TNFH complain about the payroll I do kinda cringe and understand why fans of other teams would roll their eyes.

    I will say the one area where the Yankees really do flex their financial muscle is in player development and analytics. They have a huge analytics department and they still employ the most scouts. Plus they spend a ton on their minor league facilities and little things like employing full time teachers to teach their young latin players english. It may seem like obvious things to do but its something most if not all of the other teams dont spend their money on. Not to mention they as they always have they spend all the international player pool bonus money they have allotted to them.

    They may spend a lower % of their revenue on the payroll, which as I mentioned can be frustrating at times especially for those of us who lived through the Boss years, but they do make up for that by spending it in other areas that are not taxed and where they are allowed to spend as much as they want. Just read quotes from players who join the Yankees from other teams and many of them are in awe by how much the Yankees spend to give them the biggest advantages with things like expansive analytical reports and accommodations in their clubhouse and on the road. Players love playing for the Yankees because they are a high class organization who treats their players that way.

  167. pepper: perhaps since that span in the late 90’s with Torre…the new jack yankee fans are like that…but the whole rant of us being whiners and expecting nothing less than a championship seems to be due to a jealous babbling of the fan of a team who hasn’t won shit in 35 years….

    Not generalizing per se, just reacting to certain posts that are pretty typical. I appreciate what BBA and Unreason posted.

    As to the “jealousy”thing, I was raised in the Bronx yet chose the Mets when they were the laughingstock of MLB. Chose the Jets for the same reason. The Knicks and Rangers were easy, they were the only game in town. Even as a kid I’ve always had an affinity for the underdog. If the Mets or Knicks became a dynasty, I’d likely feel the way that BBA and Unreason do. You can be a lifelong fan of a dynastic team without being, well, not like BBA or Unreason.

  168. Famous Quotes in the near future:
    “Competition is the heart and soul of all sports”
    Knew Your Nicks

  169. i used to subscribed to that yankees magazine for about 10 or 15 years in a row…i tossed most of them last year…kept a few mags…

    hopefully frazier gets a chance to start full time this year…i don’t know how, but hopefully adujar gets a chance to play a little more…

    dj lemahieu and gio urshela are starting to become my favorite yankees…

    if i had to pick four for the outfield:
    stanton
    tauchman*
    gardner
    frazier *
    judge *
    hicks
    someone else *

  170. Full disclosure, I actually rooted hard for the Jim Leyritz team. They had some ex-Mets and were a scrappy, non-megastar (at that time) team playing the hated Braves. That was a very rootable team.

  171. I would love to see this blog’s reaction if the Knicks were a contender and Dolan forced the team to create a gaping hole in the starting lineup to avoid paying the luxury tax.

    This is a perfectly legitimate gripe and Z-Man is just being a typical, petty Mets fan.

  172. #I would love to see this blog’s reaction if the Knicks were a contender and Dolan forced the team to create a gaping hole in the starting lineup to avoid paying the luxury tax#

    We would still love him.
    He’s giving us the privilege to root for an underdog for 2 decades!

  173. What’s the gaping hole? The rotation? I love Tanaka as much as the next Yankees fan but it was probably time to move on. Kluber and Taillon are obvious health risks but if they stay healthy those 2 are huge upgrades over Tanaka/Paxton. Not to mention Sevy should be available for the 2nd half of the season. It’s tough to whine about being cheap with starting pitching when they have the most expensive SP in history.

    Listen shit I’d be all for them saying screw the luxery tax and spend 250 million but its not what Hal is gonna do. Like I mentioned the Yankees are not cheap, they spend their revenue but just not mostly on payroll. Now you can argue they are not spending their money the best way possible and thats a valid argument but you cant argue that Hal is cheap.

  174. Hubert:
    I would love to see this blog’s reaction if the Knicks were a contender and Dolan forced the team to create a gaping hole in the starting lineup to avoid paying the luxury tax.

    This is a perfectly legitimate gripe and Z-Man is just being a typical, petty Mets fan.

    Already happened, genius. Obviously you don’t remember when I was one of the few who wasn’t pissed at Dolan for not matching the Jeremy Lin poison pill contract. I would have been thrilled if he did, but it’s his money and I didn’t think I had any right as a fan to criticize him for not going into the luxury tax. So stick that up your whining, sniveling ass.

  175. Z-man: Already happened, genius. Obviously you don’t remember when I was one of the few who wasn’t pissed at Dolan for not matching the Jeremy Lin poison pill contract. I would have been thrilled if he did, but it’s his money and I didn’t think I had any right as a fan to criticize him for not going into the luxury tax.

    yeah, I don’t see those two things being the same at all.

    But if never criticizing ownership not spending is your thing, cool. It ain’t mine.

  176. BigBlueAL: Like I mentioned the Yankees are not cheap, they spend their revenue but just not mostly on payroll. Now you can argue they are not spending their money the best way possible and thats a valid argument but you cant argue that Hal is cheap.

    You have any figures to back up the Yankees spending more on infrastructure and analytics than Boston, LA, etc? Or is it all just mythical anecdotes?

  177. Hubert: yeah, I don’t see those two things being the same at all.

    Of course you don’t. That would involve humility.

    Hubert: But if never criticizing ownership not spending is your thing, cool. It ain’t mine.

    The point is that they are spending…2nd highest payroll in MLB. They just aren’t guaranteeing you a championship on paper and you can’t deal with it.

  178. Again, I think you’re just making a pointzzz argument.

    If a guy takes 30 shots, I expect more than 20 pts. You’re telling me to ignore the 30 shots and just be happy he scored 20, bc there are guys who only took 6 shots and they didn’t score 20.

  179. There was a book written about this a couple of years ago, believe it was called Inside the Empire. Also books like the Baby Bombers talks about how they’ve changed their player development and most of it is about spending more on analytics and player development. Plus I mean if you actually follow the team and read articles on them every year there are a ton of stuff written about it. Heck just go watch and read interviews done with guys like Britton and Stanton after they got traded to the Yankees. Granted they came from shitty franchises but they both talk about how much more analytical info they get on a daily basis from the Yankees than they’ve ever gotten before. You think DJ LeMahieu hasn’t benefited from playing with the Yankees? It’s not just Yankee Stadium, he came from playing his home games in Coors Field. Same with Gio Urshela and to a lesser extent Voit although he always had a track record of hitting in the minors so he just needed a chance but the Yankees traded for him specifically because of his analytical hitting profile.

  180. You have any figures to back up the Yankees spending more on infrastructure and analytics than Boston, LA, etc? Or is it all just mythical anecdotes?

    are you sure you’re from new york and not missouri…

  181. Speaking of 20 points on 30 shots, how much longer are the Blazers going to string the corpse of Melo along? He was 3-15 tonight in a close loss.

  182. Respectfully, BBA, I think that stuff is kinda standard for the top clubs these days. You’ll find the same anecdotes in Boston, LA, Chicago, etc.

  183. Melo had been shooting really well up until the game against the Knicks. He was shooting 44% from 3pt and had a TS% I believe around 58% going into that game.

  184. That stuff actually isn’t that standard. Sure the big clubs invest in it but that’s why they’re the top clubs. Many franchises hardly spend anything on analytics and especially minor league infrastructure. I remember one article I read stating that the clubs who spent the most on their analytics department employed over 20 staff members while the cheapest teams only had a few people in their analytics department.

    That’s an area where spending more money can make just as big an impact as player payroll. BTW you mentioned Boston and the Cubs, how are they looking right now? The Cubs just traded their best SP as basically a salary dump and the Red Sox traded their best player who is also a top 5 player in all MLB because they didn’t want to pay him. Think the Red Sox and Cubs fans are happy with their ownership right now?

  185. I have never liked the steninbrenner’s and felt that the soiled the franchise…i admire a dedication to winning but don’t view it as they need to spray money around and get the best shiniest free agents…i always saw that as the lazy way which george (similar to dolan) operated…allways preferred the homegrown talent….

    I also think Cashman is grossly overated…not much to show in his tenure and that one world series was mostly off the work done by michael…..he shows flashes off being savy but then he goes out and gets stanton or thinks james paxton is going to change into sandy koufax…

    finally…sad to see tanaka go..he was a warrior…if his elbow didn’t blow up…he woulda been special…

  186. Z-man: Not generalizing per se, just reacting to certain posts that are pretty typical. I appreciate what BBA and Unreason posted.
    As to the “jealousy”thing, I was raised in the Bronx yet chose the Mets when they were the laughingstock of MLB. Chose the Jets for the same reason. The Knicks and Rangers were easy, they were the only game in town. Even as a kid I’ve always had an affinity for the underdog. If the Mets or Knicks became a dynasty, I’d likely feel the way that BBA and Unreason do. You can be a lifelong fan of a dynastic team without being, well, not like BBA or Unreason.

    i was born in the bronx but we moved to yonkers…but my best friend growing up was also from the bronx and I spent alot of time at his house …and he bacame a mets fan…..i forget why but I could never understand it…have to ask him next time I speak to him…sadly his dad died last week from covid and they had a service on facebook and when he got up to say a few words…talked about how his dad loved his yankees…

  187. I also think Cashman is grossly overated…not much to show in his tenure and that one world series was mostly off the work done by michael…..he shows flashes off being savy but then he goes out and gets stanton or thinks james paxton is going to change into sandy koufax…

    They have the most wins in baseball since 2001 (in case you don’t want to give him credit for his first three seasons for whatever reason) and haven’t had a losing season since he’s become GM.

  188. thenoblefacehumper: I cannot relate at all to thinking there should be some kind of arbitrary limit to the advantage owners of large market teams have, BUT the limit should only apply to their ability to sign players and nothing else.

    Considering that all of the other major sports owners actually agree that there should be some kind of limit, and have jointly agreed to institute a salary cap and revenue-sharing to prevent exactly the kind of behavior you are suggesting so that a semblance competitive balance is maintained, it’s weird that you think that way. Or do you feel that way only because your beloved team is among those who benefit from your way of thinking and that 20 consecutive years of winning seasons steeped in that advantage isn’t enough? If that’s not over-the-top entitled elitist whining, I don’t know what is.

  189. Brian Cronin: They have the most wins in baseball since 2001 (in case you don’t want to give him credit for his first three seasons for whatever reason) and haven’t had a losing season since he’s become GM.

    Yeah but they didn’t win a dozen or so championships in that time so he must suck.

  190. If the Yankees have a winning record in the next two seasons, that’d be thirty straight winning seasons! Heck, even if it ends at 28 seasons, it is amazing!

  191. I have Dodger fan friends who are convinced that the Dodgers are run by stat nerd idiots who only know how to build the team for regular season success but don’t know how to build a champion. One of them (a very smart guy BTW) made the argument that they didn’t bother to invest in their bullpen. I pointed out that the Dodgers led the NL in bullpen FIP that year. Didn’t matter, he said.

    Then I made the argument that they should have certainly won the series the year the Astros cheated, and he blamed advanced stats on that too, because when the advanced stats don’t give you enough of an edge you have to go to the next thing, which is cheating. Which didn’t make a lot of sense but what are you gonna do.

    I look forward to being this spoiled someday soon.

  192. They still think that after they won the World Series? That’s some dedicated negging. I guess they are LA, though, so it makes sense that they’d be good at negging.

  193. So the Yankees are the Real Madrid fans of baseball? I never really followed baseball much (thankfully because I would have probably chosen to follow the Mets).

    Real Madrid is in crisis now too, they just won the Spanish league last season and it’s been THREE WHOLE YEARS since they won the Champions League to complete a treble, yet talking to their fans you would believe they are the Spanish Knicks.

  194. pepper:
    another lifelong yankee fan…I take exception to the sweeping generlization of all of us being whining entitled brats…i never felt that way….nor did I perceive other yankee fans like that..i sat throught a lot of painful seasons pre and post steinbrenner and didn’t feel like we were supposed to win..fuck…we were pretty crappy for alot of those years…this whole excellence bullshit came after george…

    .perhaps since that span in the late 90’s with Torre…the new jack yankee fans are like that…but the whole rant of us being whiners and expecting nothing less than a championship seems to be due to a jealous babbling of the fan of a team who hasn’t won shit in 35 years….

    This. This is the smoke I’m here for. lol

    To be fair – not all Met fans are Yankee-haters (i.e. JK47)

    And yeah I’m a Yankee fan. I just want to beat the damn Astros and face the Dodgers in the WS.

  195. They still think that after they won the World Series? That’s some dedicated negging. I guess they are LA, though, so it makes sense that they’d be good at negging.

    Well, to these guys the Dodgers would have won like 8 World Series if they had like, I dunno, bunted or something

  196. JK47:
    I have Dodger fan friends who are convinced that the Dodgers are run by stat nerd idiots who only know how to build the team for regular season success but don’t know how to build a champion. One of them (a very smart guy BTW) made the argument that they didn’t bother to invest in their bullpen. I pointed out that the Dodgers led the NL in bullpen FIP that year. Didn’t matter, he said.

    Then I made the argument that they should have certainly won the series the year the Astros cheated, and he blamed advanced stats on that too, because when the advanced stats don’t give you enough of an edge you have to go to the next thing, which is cheating. Which didn’t make a lot of sense but what are you gonna do.

    I look forward to being this spoiled someday soon.

    Please tell your buddies that you have a New York transplant friend says STFU and enjoy the damn World Series title it took them 31 years to finally nab. ;-)

  197. Even as a kid I’ve always had an affinity for the underdog.

    LA sports fans will never understand this logic. Too much vanity built into their DNA to truly love a bad or lightweight team.

  198. JK47: Well, to these guys the Dodgers would have won like 8 World Series if they had like, I dunno, bunted or something

    Or if Kershaw (and a lesser extent, Jansen) would’ve stop choking in the postseason before last year?? Juss sayin’…

  199. Please tell your buddies that you have a New York transplant friend says STFU and enjoy the damn World Series title it took them 31 years to finally nab. ;-)

    Haha I will pass that along.

    I haven’t lived in NYC since I was a kid so I’m immune to the Yankees/Mets rivalry.

    We have a friendly inter-family rivalry– my dad is from the Bronx, my mom is from Queens, Dad’s a Yankee fan, Mom’s a Met fan. I was originally a Yankee fan as a little kid but we had WOR in Florida and I fell in love with the ’84 Mets, Doc’s rookie year, and there was no turning back from that. My brother is eight years younger so he missed all of that, the Mets sucked by the time he started getting into baseball and he’s a Yankee fan.

    We pull for each other though, I definitely don’t want to see the Yankees lose if they’re playing anybody other than the Mets. The Yankees are kind of my de facto “second team.” My dad grew up hating the Brooklyn Dodgers, so he sort of rooted for the New York Giants in a “enemy of my enemy is my friend” kind of way, and he sees the Mets as the heirs to the Giants. So, same for him. He follows the Mets a bit.

  200. back on topic :)

    whew, quite the rabbit hole I’ve climb down on this pipe acquisition thing…

    it’s like walking down the cereal aisle and only knowing you want a box of cereal…

    does it need to be cherry wood, will rose or pear wood suffice…

    do i actually need/want an exact gandalf replica…how many inches should it be: 10, 11, 13…curved or straight…

    obviously a lighter doesn’t fit, so, what brand matches might help compliment the whole pipe smoking ambiance…

    considering the substance, is a detachable bowl a neccesity…

    I’ll need a stand…

    this could take a while…

    justine sounds very interesting – thanks…

  201. was watching espn and they mentioned some kind of “scout” app (NBA Global Scout), does measurables, which is not that big a deal, but, also “scores” shooting form…

    that’s pretty cool…so long eye test…

  202. I think I hear Strat frantically thumbing through his yellow-covered Austrian economic Cliff’s notes to find appropriate references…

    I was too busy trading to be worried about what I read 30 years ago in my Austrian economics books. lol

    This was one of those rare times in life I didn’t do anything particularly smart, but made a lot of money.

    Short sellers were covering positions in a lot of stocks besides those actually being attacked (like GME) by the lunatics on Reddit. I owned a couple of those stocks. So I cashed my tickets when they spiked hard, took the money, and became a spectator to the lunacy around me.

    But if you want an Austrian reference, the Fed has been screwing up for a very long time and now it has a “tiger by the tail”.

  203. I have absolutely no complaints whatsoever about Cashman and hope he’s the GM of the Yankees for as long as he wants. He is awesome.

    I am not convinced, however, that it’s unreasonable for me to be miffed that the Steinbrenner trust fund babies are pocketing a couple of million by ducking the first luxury tax threshold rather than getting another starting pitcher.

    The opening day rotation is probably something like Cole-Kluber-Taillon-Monty-German/Garcia/Schmidt. Kluber has pitched 36 innings in the last two seasons, Taillon has him beat at 37, and Montgomery is the workhorse of the bunch with 48 innings during that time.

    Masahiro Tanaka had 5 straight seasons of 150+ IP prior to the shortened season, and never had an FIP worse than 4.34. Maybe I’m crazy and whiny and entitled for thinking Hal Steinbrenner should’ve incurred a ~$4M luxury tax payment to bring that dude back, but I still think it’s true. Sorry!

  204. Bruno Almeida: So the Yankees are the Real Madrid fans of baseball?

    No, Yankees fans are more like Man United fans, and the Steinbrenner kids are the Glazer family.

    Both the Yankees and United watched their team get eclipsed by their biggest rival primarily bc John Henry ran circles around his opponents ownership teams.

    And just like United got eclipsed in their own town bc a billionaire bought the club next door, the Yankees are finally going to get challenged by the Mets, so it’s squeaky bum time around the Bronx.

  205. Brian Cashman has one fatal flaw: he can’t assemble a quality pitching staff without throwing a huge contract at someone like CC or Cole. His non obvious pitching bets (Kevin Brown, Javy Vazquez, Sonny Grey, Carl Pavano) have sunk the team
    on many occasions, and what he’s doing now with the three scratch off tickets will likely sink them this year

    But he is legitimately a guy that 29 other teams would die to have. Without him, the Yankees are probably the 2000 Knicks: free spending and terrible.

  206. The Infamous Cdiggy: Please tell your buddies that you have a New York transplant friend says STFU and enjoy the damn World Series title it took them 31 years to finally nab. ;-)

    It’s much more fun to tell Dodgers fans that it didn’t count and they have to win one in a real season.

  207. Yankees fans in this thread doing a great job showing how they’re not a bunch of whiny, entitled brats. Nothing like the entitlement that 10 years is too long to go in between championships.

    pepper: but the whole rant of us being whiners and expecting nothing less than a championship seems to be due to a jealous babbling of the fan of a team who hasn’t won shit in 35 years….

    Mets won the pennant in 2015. When was the last time the Yankees did that?

  208. vincoug:
    Yankees fans in this thread doing a great job showing how they’re not a bunch of whiny, entitled brats.Nothing like the entitlement that 10 years is too long to go in between championships.

    Mets won the pennant in 2015.When was the last time the Yankees did that?

    woo hoo…

  209. I think I’d rather be lectured about the tragic decay of white supremacy by bobneptune than watch Yankees and Mets fans bicker about who has the right to suffer

  210. The Honorable Cock Jowles:
    I think I’d rather be lectured about the tragic decay of white supremacy by bobneptune than watch Yankees and Mets fans bicker about who has the right to suffer

    he probably is in a federal penitentiary after taking part in the assault on the capital a few weeks ago…so he might not have internet access…

  211. I think I’d rather be lectured about the tragic decay of white supremacy by bobneptune than watch Yankees and Mets fans bicker about who has the right to suffer

    Ha! But since you and Neptune literally made all of us sit through that lecture all spring, no one feels too bad for you right now ;)

    At the very least, we can promise that — unlike your cage match with Bob — this will be over soon!

  212. the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards fuck bobneptune

    pepper: he probably is in a federal penitentiary after taking part in the assault on the capital a few weeks ago…so he might not have internet access…

    ’tis but a footnote, young squire

  213. The Honorable Cock Jowles:
    I think I’d rather be lectured about the tragic decay of white supremacy by bobneptune than watch Yankees and Mets fans bicker about who has the right to suffer

    One of the things I appreciate about this blog is that there is barely anyone who falls into either the fanbois or hater category. I appreciate the measured posts about the Mets and Yankees, including the ones where folks admit to and reckon with their biases and can step back and be objective and self-aware.

  214. I agree that Hal should be spending more than he does, considering how much money the Yankees make relative to other teams.

    Here is the most convincing defense I’ve heard of Cashman’s pitching strategy this winter: even with Tanaka gone, the Yankees have a bunch of guys whose floor right now feels like a decent 4th or 5th starter, including Montgomery, Deivi, Schmidt, and German. The problem isn’t filling out the rotation, especially since the Yankees have a great chance of making the playoffs even without a traditional inning-absorbing rotation horse other than Cole. The problem for the team the last several years is that their top-end pitching simply has not been as good as the rotations of the teams who have knocked them out. So rather than bring back Tanaka (who is still solid, but hasn’t been the same pitcher since he lost the ability to throw his splitter) or sign some other solid number 3/4 type, Cashman is instead gambling that at least one of Kluber, Taillon, or Sevy (when he gets back) will be able to resemble the pitcher they were pre-injury. If he’s right, the Yankees go from one ace and a bunch of guys to two aces and a bunch of guys, and that’s a huge difference. And if more than one of the lotto tickets (whether one of the injured guys or one of the kids) pays off? Then good luck, everybody else.

    It’s a risky strategy, and I’ll miss Tanaka. But within the limits of Hal’s budget mandate (which would preclude the team from signing Trevor Bauer), it’s a really interesting bet.

  215. Hubert:
    Brian Cashman has one fatal flaw: he can’t assemble a quality pitching staff without throwing a huge contract at someone like CC or Cole. His non obvious pitching bets (Kevin Brown, Javy Vazquez, Sonny Grey, Carl Pavano) have sunk the team
    on many occasions, and what he’s doing now with the three scratch off tickets will likely sink them this year

    But he is legitimately a guy that 29 other teams would die to have. Without him, the Yankees are probably the 2000 Knicks: free spending and terrible.

    I know your point is about contracts, but I thought it was worth noting that their supposed lack of pitching is really not corroborated by facts.

    Top pitching staffs by WAR, AL (2015-2020):
    1. Indians
    2. Astros
    3. Yankees
    4. Rays (20 WAR behind the Yankees)

    Top starting pitching staffs by WAR, AL (2015-2020):
    1. Indians
    2. Astros
    3. Yankees
    4. Red Sox

    Sure, they spent more money to put these together, but there’s a general perception that the Yankees never have good pitching, which is really not the case.

  216. A guaranteed 150 IP above replacement level SP isn’t something to be easily replaced even with a few young talented arms.

    The Mets tried that when they let Bartolo Colon go and tried to replace him with more IP from one of the best young rotations in baseball.

    It wasn’t the same.

  217. But within the limits of Hal’s budget mandate (which would preclude the team from signing Trevor Bauer), it’s a really interesting bet.

    Good post, and I have absolutely no complaints about how Cashman operates within the stupid constraints. A few people here seem to be conflating the two things.

  218. I do wonder about how the banned substance controversy will affect pitchers right now. Trevor Bauer, who has all but admitted to doctoring the ball himself with a new formula during his breakout 2020 season, said around 70% of all pitchers are doing the same to improve their spin rates. And that Angels clubhouse manager who was caught texting other pitchers around the league had some pretty big names on his like Verlander, Cole, Kluber, etc. I’d be rather worried about these pitchers this upcoming season.

  219. A guaranteed 150 IP above replacement level SP isn’t something to be easily replaced even with a few young talented arms.

    I get that. But if you believe the Yankees can make the postseason even without a Tanaka-type horse, then it becomes a question of how much value said horse has in the playoffs. Tanaka has been a great playoff pitcher in the past, but he wasn’t in 2020, and the splitter issue has me worried we would ever see peak Masa again. So if Cashman only has X dollars to spend because Hal is determined to reset the CBT penalties, then Cashman had to choose between the sure thing that probably doesn’t put the team over the top against Tampa, Houston, Chicago, et al, or two guys (plus Sevy) who could flame out, but also have the potential to be lockdown arms in a short series. I’d rather have all those guys, but within that budget, I think it’s a gamble worthy trying.

  220. Alan: I get that. But if you believe the Yankees can make the postseason even without a Tanaka-type horse, then it becomes a question of how much value said horse has in the playoffs. Tanaka has been a great playoff pitcher in the past, but he wasn’t in 2020, and the splitter issue has me worried we would ever see peak Masa again. So if Cashman only has X dollars to spend because Hal is determined to reset the CBT penalties, then Cashman had to choose between the sure thing that probably doesn’t put the team over the top against Tampa, Houston, Chicago, et al, or two guys (plus Sevy) who could flame out, but also have the potential to be lockdown arms in a short series. I’d rather have all those guys, but within that budget, I think it’s a gamble worthy trying.

    Agree 100%. The real answer should be that they could have spent another $15m and have all of these guys plus Tanaka, so you have the upside and higher floor. But that would have cost Hal a few million dollars.

  221. “Tanaka has been a great playoff pitcher in the past, but he wasn’t in 2020, and the splitter issue has me worried we would ever see peak Masa again.”

    I hear ya, but there could be some real recency bias at work with passing too harsh a judgement upon two playoff apperances that are such small sample sizes of work to begin with. Tanaka’s FiP for the entire 2020 season was inline with his numbers in the past four seasons and his peripherals were all solid as well. You could be making a mountain out of a molehill for a guy who stabilized your rotation and is being replaced by Corey Kluber, especially since Kluber himself hasn’t pitched substantive innings since 2018 and is now on a list of players identified with the specific blend of pine tar and rosin indentiifed in Brian Harkins’ wrongful termination trial.

  222. Sure, they spent more money to put these together, but there’s a general perception that the Yankees never have good pitching, which is really not the case.

    I didn’t say they never have good pitching.

    He assembles an elite bullpen year after year, which is incredibly difficult. And the depth in the rotation has always been solid. We’re rarely trotting out a 4th or 5th starter that can’t compete. All of those things contribute to the stats you posted.

    He has struggled to add top line pitching, though, when not just paying the sticker price for guys like CC, Tanaka, Cole. It’s a fair gripe.

  223. thenoblefacehumper: Good post, and I have absolutely no complaints about how Cashman operates within the stupid constraints. A few people here seem to be conflating the two things.

    same.

    cashman’s multiple scratch off ticket idea is the smartest possible move within the constraints.

    our issue is with the constraints.

    then there is the side argument about him being overrated, which I think is ridiculous, but I do think it’s fair to point out his one flaw: he struggles to
    find quality starting pitchers when he can’t spend $150mm+ on one.

  224. I always saw the Yankees problem being more about hitting than pitching…they seem to go for the big free swingers with huge strike zones that elite pitching can get out in tough spots. Seems to me that teams with more of the scrappier, grinder types of hitters have more success in the playoffs.

    The other issue is that there is only one Mariano. Met fans (and fans of 28 other teams) have had to endure one faux-closer after another. I don’t know if Yankees fans fully appreciate how incredibly lucky they were to have the most reliable all-time great pitcher of all time closing out big games for the better part of two decades.

  225. Over on Yankeeblogger right now they’re discussing how much the Knicks should be willing to give up to acquire Bradley Beal.

  226. I actually don’t think a Beal trade would be disastrous (barring some ridiculous trade where we give up everything) since we should be able to structure it in a way that we have cap space going forward. Beal isn’t good enough to elevate a franchise on his own, but I could see him + some of our supporting pieces being a decent lure for other good players. It’s not the plan I would go for, since Beal expires in like two years anyways so if you want him that badly you’re probably better off just building the team organically while conserving cap space, but if we could do it without giving up Mitch or RJ I could see them + Beal working together well. Beal is also a much easier player to build around than, say, Randle, since Beal’s skillset seems like it could slot into pretty much any roster.

  227. Agree with Alan re: the Yankees – IMHO there isn’t a serious downside to what they’re doing with the pitching. Short of giving another Cole-like contract to Bauer, there’s no real “risk-less” upside play out there, and the Yankees are full of OK starters behind Cole. Worst case scenario they blew $13MM marginal prospects on 1 year of Kluber and a cost-controlled guy in Taillon and end up trotting out Cole German Sevy when he comes back Montgomery Deivi Clarke Schmidt or whoever — which is actually a relatively high-upside group to begin with if Sevy comes back as the old Sevy. But the if Kluber and Taillon are good, then it’s a really high upside group.

    Anyone else thinking about what this team would be like if we had decided to get CP3? And replaced 28 minutes of Elfrid Payton with 28 minutes of the point God? (my guess – we would be the 4 seed right now)
    Not saying it would’ve been a good idea, but… well honestly, anything that has Elfrid Payton not playing is a good idea.

  228. I like Beal but I think he’s being a little overrated right now and that’s a scary sign for what we’d have to give up for him. I don’t think he’s a top-10, or even 15, player because he is completely one-dimensional.

    Macri touched on this in his newsletter today but when you take into account what we’d have to give away, I’m not convinced Beal + whoever would remain on the Knicks is even a top 5 seed in the East. We’d still have flexibility but I think it’s a move that would lower our upside.

    I would much rather sign Zach LaVine as a free agent in 2022 (compare his numbers to Beal’s and tell me why one is an inefficient chucker and the other is elite) and save our trade ammo for KAT.

  229. thenoblefacehumper:
    I like Beal but I think he’s being a little overrated right now and that’s a scary sign for what we’d have to give up for him. I don’t think he’s a top-10, or even 15, player because he is completely one-dimensional.

    Macri touched on this in his newsletter today but when you take into account what we’d have to give away, I’m not convinced Beal + whoever would remain on the Knicks is even a top 5 seed in the East. We’d still have flexibility but I think it’s a move that would lower our upside.

    I would much rather sign Zach LaVine as a free agent in 2022 (compare his numbers to Beal’s and tell me why one is an inefficient chucker and the other is elite) and save our trade ammo for KAT.

    Definitely agree, though I’m still wary of LaVine since his defensive reputation is so bad. (I would love to see evidence to the contrary, though, since reputation is not especially reliable.) I don’t think we should go for Beal, but I also don’t think it would necessarily cripple us if the price is right. If the price is not right, hard pass. Whether or not Rose feels the same remains to be seen.

  230. I don’t know that I want Bradley Beal but I’d love
    to sell Obi Toppin right now before his value plummets, if it hasn’t already. If Washington for some reason would consider him a major trade piece, I’d be down to capitalize on that error.

    Random addendum on yankees pitching: I’m a huge Jordan Montgomery fan. I think that guy is seriously underrated.

  231. We are currently projected to pick that German kid, Franz Wagner, out of Mich with Dallas’ pick.

    Anyone familiar with his game?

  232. whew, quite the rabbit hole I’ve climb down on this pipe acquisition thing…

    I’ve never smoked weed and don’t plan to, but you guys make it sound so damn appetizing! lol

    EDIT: I ate a half-brownie edible the wknd before my wedding. Once that shit kicked in, I couldn’t speak a complete sentence for like 2 hours lol.

    When I watch Toppin (eyetest alert!), I see something there. Something about his athleticism and how he moves on the court. It’s clear he’s not “melded” into NBA game flow just yet – I believe it’s worth seeing how he produces once he does, be it later this season or by next season.

  233. ***Anyone else thinking about what this team would be like if we had decided to get CP3? And replaced 28 minutes of Elfrid Payton with 28 minutes of the point God? (my guess – we would be the 4 seed right now)***

    I think the Knicks did decide to get CP3, but he didn’t want to play in NY.

    Also, if he had said yes to a trade to the Knicks, they would have had to have at least come close to matching what the Suns gave up (4 players and a first rounder), so the experiment wouldn’t just be replacing Payton with Paul.

    (In the scenarios of “woulda, coulda, shoulda” of last summer, getting assets to eat John Wall’s contract when it was first broached may have been the best use of cap space available after all. Who knew.)

  234. d-mar:
    Over on Yankeeblogger right now they’re discussing how much the Knicks should be willing to give up to acquire Bradley Beal.

    hahahaahaaa point taken. But c’mon who doesn’t love a gentlemanly-measured Yanks/Mets beef every now and then?
    We’re like the only fanbase of a city with 2 of everything where people acknowledge and rep for their teams regardless of how bad they may be. Here in LA there’s no beefing b/c Laker fans don’t acknowledge the Clippers, Dodger fans don’t acknowledge the Angels, and nobody gives a shit about the Chargers. Nobody. Not even the homeless.

    i was born in the bronx but we moved to yonkers…

    You too, Pepper?? I moved to Yonkers in ’83 when my parents split – I was 6 yrs old. Lived there primarily until 15 when I decided to live with my dad and go to HS in the city (ended up at Stuyvesant).

  235. The problem with edibles is almost always dosing.

    I think I’ve told this story before, but:

    > be me, summer of 2011, living near UChicago, 24 and way too much BDE for a scrawny 5’10” man to have
    > hanging out at the uni library reading books while all the nerds studied for finals
    > cutie across the way making eyes at me
    > my hormone monster starts whispering in my ear
    > walk over, flirt, she’s laughing, stands up
    > she’s a svelte but looming 6’2″
    > cool ok still let’s do this
    > go on date
    > good date
    > we’re wrapping up and she says she’s never been able to smoke anything because of a medical condition, but wants to try cAnNaBiS
    > “you’re in luck, tall girl, as I have just baked a half oz. of medical-grade flower into a single 8×8 tray of brownies”
    > very very potent, like eat a gram of brownie and get lit
    > she very excited, Jowles also excited
    > tell her they’re pretty potent so let’s keep it chill
    > hour later I’m feeling it, she’s got nothing going on
    > in my haze I tell her she can have more if she wants
    > goes into kitchen, eats unknown volume of brownie
    > half an hour later confirm that she kisses like a UChicago undergrad (that’s shade)
    > “ok let’s wrap it up, I’ll get you home”
    > stands up, feels woozy
    > “cool well I guess I’m driving you, my car is like right here”
    > get to kitchen doorway
    > grabs doorframe: “I’m going to pass out right now”
    > 6’2″ girl drops to her knees and passes out face-fucking-first into my metal oven door
    > she is very not awake
    > I am very high and have no idea what is going on
    > prop her up and rest her against my leg because I literally do not know what else to do
    > she comes to and says, “you’re not going to do anything to me, are you?”
    > know my own soul in that moment: “no, I’m not going to do anything to you”
    > she hugs a garbage can for an hour, I basically fireman’s carry her to my car
    > she stumbles to her doorway, definitely thinking I roofied her
    > never…

  236. Maybe the Knicks should’ve traded for John Wall after all??
    :-)

    I’m a lifer Mets fan, but have never hated the Yankees. Rather, I admire them for stuff like BigBlueAl has noted and just sort of chuckle seeing Yankees fans whine. But then again, I’m not a native New Yorker. I grew up in NW Massachusetts, so the Red Sox became the team that I sort of actively disliked b/c there were so many fans of them around me, and I was viewed as a weirdo for liking the Mets. I knew like one Yankees fan growing up, and he was a nice kid.

    The 1986 WS was epic b/c my mom, one brother, and sister are all Red Sox fans. But I and my youngest brother are Mets fans. It was quite a rollercoaster ride. I’ll never forget my mom’s reaction to the 6th game after the Sox blew it…

  237. franz wagner is an interesting guy… he’s an incarnation of detlef shrempf… and that’s not even being racist…. the games are strikingly similar…. wagner is a bit heavy footed and of course whether or not he is as good as shrempf is a question mark… but he passes well and has good court instincts… shoots well enough and is tough enough inside to probably have some sort of career in the nba….

    the dribble drive… the quickness and the narrow frame are some question marks to how good he can possibly be… esp when he’s matched up against opposing 3s or 4s.. i like him overall and he would be a solid pick tho….

  238. The Infamous Cdiggy:
    You too, Pepper?? I moved to Yonkers in ’83 when my parents split – I was 6 yrs old. Lived there primarily until 15 when I decided to live with my dad and go to HS in the city (ended up at Stuyvesant).

    we lived on Rumsey Road for about 3 or 4 yr ..like 1968-1972 and then my folks just decided to pick up and move to Arizona…talk about culture shock…

  239. In the end, CP3 cost too much for us. But this site was an army of lunatics this summer, telling me he wasn’t worth giving up ANYTHING for bc we’d just be a 20 win team with a washed up 35 year old PG. I even got massive pushback for suggesting I’d give up the LAC pick for him. Crazy talk, all of you.

  240. We are currently projected to pick that German kid, Franz Wagner, out of Mich with Dallas’ pick.

    The ol’ “younger brother of a decent player” routine tends to pan out, so I am intrigued by him.

  241. djphan:
    franz wagner is an interesting guy… he’s an incarnation of detlef shrempf… and that’s not even being racist…. the games are strikingly similar…. wagner is a bit heavy footed and of course whether or not he is as good as shrempf is a question mark… but he passes well and has good court instincts… shoots well enough and is tough enough inside to probably have some sort of career in the nba….

    the dribble drive… the quickness and the narrow frame are some question marks to how good he can possibly be… esp when he’s matched up against opposing 3s or 4s.. i like him overall and he would be a solid pick tho….

    In my stereotyping reptilian mind I immediately thought of Schrempf upon watching his highlights. Seems to be a real European defensive wiz from the scouting reports – the type of player we’ll never pick in the post-Frank era.

  242. In the end, CP3 cost too much for us. But this site was an army of lunatics this summer, telling me he wasn’t worth giving up ANYTHING for bc we’d just be a 20 win team with a washed up 35 year old PG. I even got massive pushback for suggesting I’d give up the LAC pick for him. Crazy talk, all of you.

    Even in retrospect, I wouldn’t have given up the LAC pick for CP3. I was fine with getting CP3 if it didn’t cost any draft assets, but I’d much rather have the LAC pick (forgetting even that it resulted in a decent player in Quickley) than CP3 on this particular Knicks team.

  243. If the price is right I’m a yes on Beal. He’s an absolutely perfect fit for what ails this team. I don’t care if it “only” gets us to top 5. Getting to top 5 is how you get the top 10 guys to actually put us on their list.

    I’ll start the bidding:
    Obi
    2021 Knicks unprotected
    2022 swap
    2023 top 5 protected
    Filler

  244. Jowles, a few years ago when we were still in LA, my wife and I decided to go to Jumbo’s Clown Room after eating some gummies. Jumbo’s is a very famous bikini burlesque bar in East Hollywood. Supposedly David Lynch was inspired to write Blue Velvet while there one night. Its a sleezy, shady place in all the good ways.

    So we walk over there and each eat a gummy. Its the middle of the day. We go in and its dark as hell. My wife after like half an hour says she doesn’t feel anything, so she eats 2 more.

    She goes from not baked at all to freaking out she’s so high. So I suggest we go get something to eat. We go to a thai restaurant, order food and right when the food is delivered, she says “I can’t be here: and gets up and leaves the restaurant. I have no idea what to do, so I get the bill, get everything wrapped up and go outside. She’s laying on the sidewalk. She’d had passed out and fell to the ground. Luckily did not hit her head. But she insists on going to the emergency room. I try to convince her she’s just stoned but she insists. So we uber over to the Cedar Sinai. And they admit her, give her an IV. They ask her what happened and she just says :”oh I just blacked out” but then finally admits she ate edibles. The doctors and nurses just laughed at her.

  245. ps: other than Philly and Nets I wouldn’t be afraid of any other team in the East if you add Beal.

  246. I’m a clear yes on Beal at the right price. (Start the bidding at Randle and the two Dallas picks and see where things go). His usage is about 10 points higher than LaVine and you’d be risking everything that these 17 games in a contract year show a true secular growth with LaVine rather than just noise and fluke. That’s a huge risk. I’m not sure it’s worth spending anything on it when there’s a sure proven thing in Beal. Plus we’ve seen Beal be money in the playoffs; his and Wall’s 2017 run was terrific. I’m in.

  247. I’ll start the bidding:
    Obi
    2021 Knicks unprotected
    2022 swap
    2023 top 5 protected
    Filler

    I think that’s pretty damn close to enough to get him.

  248. You add Beal to the RJ of the last ten games (fingers crossed) and IQ as a budding combo sixth man and Mitch and the Knicks are a real franchise again and the Garden starts to be a draw again.

  249. I know my Yankees fandom is a medical condition, if I had to choose rationally I’ve never pick a corporate team like them and their stupid no hair rule.
    But “fandom” is irrational in itself and I was an 11 years old italian kid falling in love on TV with Gator and Nettles without knowing nothing else…
    I won’t whine but Masa going home is the saddest Yankees’ transaction news I got since Andy Pettitte’s first retirement.

    I’m happy we didn’t trade for CP3 and I’m torn about trading for Beal.

    I want him for the right price, but I don’t think WAS will trade him for a bag of beans, the NBA market value is totally out of whack and I’m scared by the ransom our FO is eager to pay.

    RJ’s and Mitch’s progress is encouraging, so is IQ and I think it’s early to give up on Toppin.
    We’re due 4 picks in the first 40 (for some reason I’m irrationally excited about it) and we could keep or sell Randle in the summer. I’d rather have them wait after the draft before trading for something significant.

  250. In the end, CP3 cost too much for us. But this site was an army of lunatics this summer, telling me he wasn’t worth giving up ANYTHING for bc we’d just be a 20 win team with a washed up 35 year old PG. I even got massive pushback for suggesting I’d give up the LAC pick for him. Crazy talk, all of you.

    Would you rather be, say, 11-8 with CP3 (whose numbers are down this year) instead of Quickley? That doesn’t sound like a preferable state of affairs to me at all.

  251. Quickley is close to 100% likely to have been there at 33, so really all we’d be short is the 2023 2nd rounder we got for punting on that pick.

    And if anyone would rather have that pick than CP3, I don’t know what to tell you.

  252. While I think Quickley probably is there at #33, as well, I don’t think the odds are close to 100% (maaaaaaaaaybe 75%?), but regardless of Quickley, the #25 pick was a good pick period. Lots of good players went #25-on. I’d rather have them than CP3 on this particular team (that actually goes to a related complaint that I don’t think they should have traded the #33 pick, either. There were a lot of players I would have loved to have had on this particular Knicks team that went #33-on).

  253. I’d have been fine with CP3 but I’d much rather have Beal. Not sure the dollars would have worked if CP3 were here right now.

    I think the debate is going to wind up being whether to trade RJ or Randle and to me it’s a no-brainer. I fear the Knicks would rather include RJ though. (The counterbid by the Wiz to BC’s offer is going to be swap out Obi for RJ or even “we want RJ, too.”

    I mean, I guess you could see Randle adjusting his game to accommodate Beal, but I just don’t really see that happening. Selling high on Randle to bring in a Bradley Beal and normalize/rightsize things is almost too good to be true.

  254. thenoblefacehumper: Would you rather be, say, 11-8 with CP3 (whose numbers are down this year) instead of Quickley? That doesn’t sound like a preferable state of affairs to me at all.

    Went to B-R to look at his stats, and there are some really insane numbers.
    Last year at age 34, he shot 85.2% from 0-3 feet — granted he only got there for 7% of his FGA, but 7% of 900 attempts is still 60-something shots. It’s not THAT small a sample. As a comparison, Mitchell Robinson, who dunks everything, shot 75% from 0-3 last year.

    I honestly wonder if that’s the highest % on “x” attempts in NBA history. Certainly for a guard I would wager that it is.

    And he shot 51% from 3-10, 52% from 10-16, 53% from 16->3, and 36.5% from 3. That is a truly remarkable shooting season for anyone much less a 34 year old tiny point guard. Oh and he also shot 91% from the line.
    Ridiculous.

  255. I’m not remotely convinced Quickley would have been there at 33. I put no stock in mock drafts once you get below about 20. If I really wanted Quickley there’s no way I would have taken the risk at 25 that he’d be there at 33.

  256. E, all merc’d out:
    I’m not remotely convinced Quickley would have been there at 33.I put no stock in mock drafts once you get below about 20.If I really wanted Quickley there’s no way I would have taken the risk at 25 that he’d be there at 33.

    I agree.
    Some writers are saying that DAL (31th, got Terry) and maybe Boston (26th, got Pritchard) were on Quickley, the Knicks wanted Maxey and when they were burned on him they jumped on Quickley asap.

  257. We should not trade for Beal or Lavine and I’m glad we didn’t trade for CP3.

    Competent coaching has vastly improved Randle, our team defense, and our rebounding. RJ is trending up and Mitch is staying out of foul trouble and anchoring a pretty decent defense. And that’s all less than 20 games into Thibs first season. Quickley is lookin’ nice. Maybe we should chill on trading away picks and players for Beal just to tap out as a mid playoff team. And this is from the guy who thinks tanking is stupid but there’s a difference between not tanking and making win now trades for fringe stars that cap out our potential future growth.

    Quickley, RJ, Mitch and Toppin could all improve over these next 20 games or so. We’re adding 2 more first round picks, potentially both lottery picks, to a team that is full of youngsters already. A decision has to be made on Mitch sooner than later but other than that, we should be in no rush to push our chips in. Hell, it took us like 4 years to refill our cupboard of picks and youth from the Melo years and people already want to cash in? We aren’t there yet.

    Sit back, enjoy the ups and downs of a young team trying to establish itself. Let’s see where we’re at in the summer.

    Only moves we should make right now are to use that cap space to bring back a bigger contract that nets us an asset like an additional pick. Or trade Elf, Bullocks, Rivers, etc to free up some minutes for younger players like Knox, etc.

  258. That particular trade, then, boils down to this:

    would you rather have

    a) CP3 and the probability (whatever you assign it) that Quickley would be available with our 2nd round pick

    b) a 2nd round pick in 2023

    I’ll still take A, and I don’t think it’s particularly close. But again, the idea was that Chris Paul wasn’t worth ANYTHING to this team. People wouldn’t even admit he was worth the 2nd round pick we punted on.

    And I’m sure some are stubborn enough to hold that line today.

  259. Eating too much weed is like taking a bad acid trip. It’s one of the most unpleasant feelings I’ve ever had. You don’t need more than 10mg of edible. Eat 10mg and give it a solid hour to kick in, you will not want to eat any more.

    (insert “The More You Know” GIF here)

  260. beal probably doesn’t move the needle enough to justify the haul we would have to package… this year’s pick alone could turn out better than beal…..

    we are much better off playing free agency and paying whatever cost there is for the best pg that would come here to be a caretaker for the position for as long as it takes for us to find a pg in the draft….

  261. and the cp3 deal was not wise before the season because we were still on the lowest rung on the win curve…

    next year we should take a step up on the win curve since all of randle.. mitch and rj have taken steps forward this year… that provides a window of opportunity to fit in a contract where you can leverage excess value before the extensions kick in…. and it just so happens we have cp3 and lowry reaching FA this offseason to do that…

    in hindsight the trade probably works.. but the decision at the time is very hard to justify…

  262. pepper: we lived on Rumsey Road for about 3 or 4 yr ..like 1968-1972 and then my folks just decided to pick up and move to Arizona…talk about culture shock…

    Were you close to Tibbets? That was our family park for all sorts of bbq’s and outdoor parties. Had a lot of family in the city (that did not have cars) so many years they’d take the 4 train to Woodlawn and catch the 4 bus or get a cab to/from Woodlawn. Man, that took me back.

  263. Beal seems very expensive

    He really is. It’s a perfect storm for his market. cgreene’s proposed offer is about what I think it would take to get Beal and that’s a lot to give up.

  264. The Infamous Cdiggy: Were you close to Tibbets? That was our family park for all sorts of bbq’s and outdoor parties. Had a lot of family in the city (that did not have cars) so many years they’d take the 4 train to Woodlawn and catch the 4 bus or get a cab to/from Woodlawn. Man, that took me back.

    Yep…we lived right off the Rumsey Rd exit on the Saw Mill…Tibbets was across the street…I went to PS 23 as a wee lad…

  265. Hard no on Beal. Let’s stay the course for a bit. He’s more of a final piece than a building block. Let’s see if we can collect some low-cost pieces in the next 3 drafts and build from there.

  266. Begley says we are still monitoring the Zach Lavine situation. He likely wouldn’t cost as much as Beal, since he’s not as good as Beal. Time once again to play the What, If Anything, Would You Be Comfortable Trading For This Guy? game!

  267. “He really is. It’s a perfect storm for his market. cgreene’s proposed offer is about what I think it would take to get Beal and that’s a lot to give up.”

    Beal right now seems like the perfect player for lots of teams so expect crazy competition about him.
    cgreene’s package is definitely a lot but nothing that seems like sure thing. All assets are gambles.
    RJ or IQ or Mitch instead of Obi would make that package intriguing for me if i were Washington’s GM

  268. Oh man, if you threw RJ in there, I think it’d be a lock, but I think that’d be too much for the Knicks to give up. I don’t know if I think that Beal is necessarily only a final piece (I think he’s somewhere between that and a true building block), but he sure isn’t a guy I give up all of that stuff plus RJ instead of Toppin.

  269. Trading for Beal right now is like buying during Limit Up. Not very smart for the Knicks. Unless we somehow “steal” him from Was.

  270. Again, hard no. Why buy high on anyone when we don’t have a decent core yet? Bargains will come, we just have to be patient.

  271. agree…stay the course…stay the course…stay the course…

    play young’uns….evaluate….parse…draft….rinse…repeat…

  272. ‘Hard no on Beal. Let’s stay the course for a bit. He’s more of a final piece than a building block. Let’s see if we can collect some low-cost pieces in the next 3 drafts and build from there.’

    I agree with Z-Man’s take, but I’d been idly fantasizing when someone mentioned Curry coming this way (he’s clearly not). But it led to this thought exercise — if we got two light-out shooters for our guard positions, and don’t lose RJ, Randle, or Mitch, are we suddenly contenders (assuming something like cgreene’s offer for Beal and somehow nabbing someone else — yes, I don’t have that someone else in mind, it’s a thought exercise). Are we top 3 in the East? Are we a threat to go all the way? Do we still have too many holes?

    I’m just trying to figure out if that’s a possible (if hugely unlikely) option for the rebuild, or not. Ignoring all the ‘ifs’ for the moment.

    And yes, I really don’t want to do my work today.

  273. Not throwing away cap space or assets via trades or signings is one thing I’m proud of Leon Rose.
    Every time an ugly rumor comes out i grab my chair and my balls and I’m ready for pain but so far he’s “paying” the right way.

  274. Again, hard no. Why buy high on anyone when we don’t have a decent core yet? Bargains will come, we just have to be patient.

    Yep, absolutely agreed. Heck, as noted, I didn’t even to buy low on CP3 if it meant giving up a draft asset.

  275. That’s one hell of a story, Jowles. I’da been a bit shook about the roofie accusation – although she clearly 1. ate more brownie on her own accord, 2. ate more than she should have, and 3. a cannabis neophyte.

    During that wedding wknd, my brother – who’s everyday goal when he was out here was to find a dispensary – literally LMAO’d when he saw the effects kicked in.

    I’m not sure on Beal; we don’t have a bonafied offensive beast and he would fit the bill as a wing. My concern -along with everyone – is the price, in terms of affecting the team’s upward trajectory. I’d want to make a trade to nab that kind of player while still keeping some potential to improve. If the price begins with either RJ or Randle, you have to ask yourself two questions:
    1. Is this year’s Julius Randle the absolute best version of him that will ever be?
    2. Do you believe RJ will continue to develop into an upper-echelon three-level scorer?

  276. djphan: and the cp3 deal was not wise before the season because we were still on the lowest rung on the win curve…

    next year we should take a step up on the win curve since all of randle.. mitch and rj have taken steps forward this year… that provides a window of opportunity to fit in a contract where you can leverage excess value before the extensions kick in…. and it just so happens we have cp3 and lowry reaching FA this offseason to do that…

    in hindsight the trade probably works.. but the decision at the time is very hard to justify…

     

    I’m pretty sure CP3 is picking up that $45mm option instead of becoming a free agent this offseason.

    Again, given the price that was set, no way should we have traded for CP3. But the consensus here was that we shouldn’t take CP3 for free bc he was washed and our team is garbage. I think it’s fair to say that if OKC had given us Paul for a negligible price, this team would be a lot more than the 25 win shitshow everyone said it would be. It would probably be a pretty decent team.

  277. I like Beal but these prices are too high. I was thinking maybe if they really like Obi Toppin and we could steal him for Toppin, Knox, and the two Dallas picks. But that seems wildly hopeful, so pass.

  278. Brian Cronin: Yep, absolutely agreed. Heck, as noted, I didn’t even to buy low on CP3 if it meant giving up a draft asset.

    A potential Beal trade is interesting to ponder. But I agree with the sentiment that this core hasn’t established itself yet to sacrifice draft capital to have a Beal-like player take us to legit contender status. BUT, if the team’s improved play this year keeps up (say they hit 30 wins), then maybe this kind of conversation makes much more sense next season.

  279. I’m all for staying the course, but think about what we could have gotten for Frank or Knox before the rest of the league realized that they sucked. Not saying it would have been a haul, but they would have at least have been considered assets early on.

    I definitely lean towards not giving up on Obi after 19 games, but I just wonder if a few years down the road we’ll regret not having moved him for the right deal.

  280. No one thought Paul wouldn’t improve us. The consensus was he would be the best guard to grace the court since Clyde.

    Most people also thought it wasn’t a great idea for building a long term contender.

    I will agree I didn’t anticipate him being the difference between us being a relatively high seed and not making the playoffs at all, which it seems at the moment he could be.

    I think 40 games in there will be less regret

  281. agree…stay the course…stay the course…stay the course…

    play young’uns….evaluate….parse…draft….rinse…repeat…

    THIS. I don’t understand the rush to become a middling playoff team at best. Why not just collect young promising players and assets until a real needle mover is available in FA? It was good enough for Miami last seasonm. KAT, Giannis, or who knows else could be available down the road.

  282. I don’t think we are in the right place for Beal, especially if it costs RJ.
    I think this will go the same way as Thibs’s time in Minnesota, at least as it pertains to when the big splash comes. Unless a really great opportunity presents itself, I think Thibs and the FO will take this year to see what they have, then make their move in/before year 2. I especially wouldn’t trade this year’s pick – even the shine has come off on some of the players, there are still a ton of guys in the top 8 that could be difference makers.

    (by really great opportunity – being the high bidder on Bradley Beal is not what I mean).

  283. Truth is that our window of being anything but low playoff fodder is not going to change with adding Beal or LaVine. We need to find a superstar or at least a star in the draft, and we aren’t gonna do that if we piss away picks for flawed second-level players who either make max money or will when they hit free agency in a couple of years.

    As shitty as our team is right now, I like watching them and am drooling over the four picks we have in this year’s draft. giving up even one of them is not something I would do, especially a likely lottery pick.

  284. As shitty as our team is right now, I like watching them and am drooling over the four picks we have in this year’s draft. giving up even one of them is not something I would do, especially a likely lottery pick.

    Right? Remember how happy we were at the start of the season of the future? And then it’s, like, “Hey, how many of these picks can we trade?”

    I’ll add, though, that that’s why I wanted to keep the #33 pick. I’d be even more excited about this team if they had someone like, I dunno, Isiah Joe or somebody on the team, as well. Or heck, if they had just kept Oturu!

  285. No one thought Paul wouldn’t improve us. The consensus was he would be the best guard to grace the court since Clyde.

    I wish I was one of those guys with all the bookmarks, but my memory is pretty good on this one. I thought Paul could make us a 42 win team that could be better with some internal improvement and smart additions around him, and the consensus was he would turn a 20 win team into a 28 win team so don’t bother.

    As it turns out, we did make smart additions and have gotten internal improvement, and I think his addition would have been wise.

    but again, it’s all academic bc he didn’t want to come here and phoenix put a package together that we couldn’t beat.

  286. Brian Cronin: Right? Remember how happy we were at the start of the season of the future? And then it’s, like, “Hey, how many of these picks can we trade?”

    I’ll add, though, that that’s why I wanted to keep the #33 pick. I’d be even more excited about this team if they had someone like, I dunno, Isiah Joe or somebody on the team, as well. Or heck, if they had just kept Oturu!

    I get that but we have plenty of young guys now and 2023 is right around the corner. Considering Thibs as pretty much a “win now first, development second” coach, chances are that whoever we drafted at that spot wouldn’t be in the rotation unless it was a guard who could shoot or someone to take Knox’s minutes. Mitch, Noel, Randle and Obi were rotation locks. So were RJ, Bullock, Burks, Payton and Rivers. So Quickley being the 10th guy is a nice draft outcome. It’s not the way I would have done things, but I’m so in love with Quickley I’m cool with the punt.

  287. Hubert: I wish I was one of those guys with all the bookmarks, but my memory is pretty good on this one. I thought Paul could make us a 42 win team that could be better with some internal improvement and smart additions around him, and the consensus was he would turn a 20 win team into a 28 win team so don’t bother.

    As it turns out, we did make smart additions and have gotten internal improvement, and I think his addition would have been wise.

    but again, it’s all academic bc he didn’t want to come here and phoenix put a package together that we couldn’t beat.

    42 in a 72-game season is probably too rosy, but for sure he makes us a .500 team. Still, it’s nice to have those assets in the bank, and a 5-10 game better record would only diminish the value of our best pick…if we didn’t use it (and more) to acquire CP3. It would have been a very shortsighted move. Fun, but dumb.

  288. Brian Cronin:
    RIP, John Chaney. I always respected the shit out of that guy.

    In the video montage of Chaney that ESPN created for their talking heads to blow hot air over, you can very clearly see his body shake before he angrily shouts, “Shut up!” at what I can only assume is one of his players on-court.

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