Kristaps Porzingis Round Table Discussion

With the Knicks drafting Kristaps Porzingis fourth overall, we decided to go to our panel of experts. We asked them to finish the following statements.

New York is going to regret taking Porzingis over …

Kurylo: Willie Cauley-Stein. This guy reminds me of Kevin Garnett. Can guard anyone, but questionable offensive skills. If he stays healthy, he’ll be in the league 15+ years.

Armosino: Justise Winslow. Would’ve been a strong 3 and D wing that would’ve allowed them to play Carmelo at the four. Doesn’t have the upside of Porzingis, but his skill set also affords him a higher floor.

Fisher-Cohen: Long term, I think Hezonja is the only player drafted after #4 who has the potential to be worth regretting (i.e. perennial All-Star). But people will bitch for a year or two about us passing on Winslow and Mudiay because both will put up numbers that pop at a glance early on.

Cronin: No one offhand. Even if someone else turns out to be great, there was no one after Zinger that was a no-brainer. Mudiay was a safer pick, but not necessarily a better pick. So it is hard to knock them for the pick in terms of “How did you pass on ____?” Any one of those four-five guys would have been a fine pick.

Udwary: Maybe Justise Winslow, for the more immediate gratification of having a more ready to contribute player. Really, though, you have to like the potential of the Zinger to be a nightmare matchup for the entire NBA. I kind of like the pick.

By taking Porzingis, Phil Jackson’s showed …

Kurylo: he’s neither as clever as his reputation, nor as dumb as I thought. New York could have traded this pick down, and done some creative stuff. But they also could have made the mistake to go with a “triangle” guy or ready-now player. I’m glad they swung for the fences, because drafts are graded 3-5 years after the fact.

Cronin: That he’s willing to make a risky pick over a safer pick that didn’t fit his system as well (Mudiay). I suppose I also like that he’s willing to try for a home run whose talent won’t show up right away. For a guy who doesn’t plan on being here in six years, I appreciate that he’s willing to draft a guy who might not be good until Year 3.

Fisher-Cohen: I still worry Zinger will get traded, but if we keep him, like I wrote in the last round table, it is the first thing Jackson’s done that indicates he understands the pit the Knicks are in and is willing to build for the long term — that the Knicks may be leaving the endless “screw rebuilding” cycle of mediocrity. To me, that’s much more important than the pick itself as the Knicks had zero chance of being great if they stayed on the win now wagon, making all their decisions irrelevant.

Udwary: It shows he has some patience for this rebuild. Porzingis isn’t the guy who is going to make a major contribution right away. This, of course, completely contradicts the contract that Phil gave Melo, which seeomingly put the emphasis on quickly building a contender around the aging star. So, I guess it also shows Phil is inconsistent. Inconsistent and patient are maybe not the best qualities to share, but it at least worked ok tonight.

When the Knicks selected Porzingis, I…

Kurylo: was fine with the pick. What settled me on Porzingis? Stat-guru Kevin Pelton had him ranked 4th. Pelton’s list also had my favorite Myles Turner ranked 6th, so you know the list is legit. Also the anxiety that the team would do something really stupid (Kaminsky, Lyle, etc.) helped me get over this selection.

Armosino: was happy it wasn’t Frank Kaminsky. Porzingis wasn’t my first choice, but I’m fine with him.

Cronin: resigned myself to him. I was also still sort of moping over losing out on Okafor and Russell. Honestly, after missing out on the guys I really wanted, I was hoping that they’d just take a shot at the grand slam pick with Zinger. It was nicely ballsy.So I was cool with it. Plus, this might very well be it for Bargs, as they wouldn’t want Bargs’ habits rubbing off on Zinger, right? That alone might make this draft a happy day in Knick history.

Fisher-Cohen: Felt extremely happy and hopeful about the Knicks for the first time in a long time (see above for why).

Udwary: I was already crushed when Philly took Okafor, so my main feeling at the time of the pick was numbness. Over time I came to warm up to the pick.

The first year that Porzingis had a PER over 15 will be …

Kurylo: 2018. He’s only 19 and has as much body fat as a three bean salad. Dirk did it in 2 years, but I think he wasn’t as raw.

Porzingis throwing his weight around.
Porzingis throwing his weight around.

Armosino: 2017. PER likes guys that shoot a lot and shoot threes. Unless he’s an immediate bust, I imagine he’ll be playing good minutes in his third season.

Cronin: I wouldn’t be shocked at 2016, but I think 2017 for sure. PER loves scorers and the Zinger is going to score.

Fisher-Cohen: This question is tied into what the Knicks do. If Jackson goes out and signs a bunch of old men to fill the team, and Porzingis only plays like 10 MPG, then he’s probably not going to improve as quickly. But I’ll be optimistic and say 2016/17. If he gets the minutes to get a feel for how to play in the NBA and puts on weight, he should be able to score and put up some defensive stats.

Udwary: It really depends on the team around him. I feel like, as long as Melo is on the team and healthy, Porzingis probably won’t see a many shots, especially if the David West and Greg Monroe rumors are true. So, I would go for 2018 when Melo breaks down and David West turns to dust.

Porzingis’ career will be most similar to …

Kurylo: I’ve crunched the numbers a few times, and I’m having a hard time finding anyone similar to him. Good outside shooting, decent shot blocking, questionable rebounding? Really the two that stick out are Dirk and Wang Zhizhi. Yes that’s a wide range, but hours after a high-risk high-reward selection, that’s all I can muster.

Somewhere between these guys.
Somewhere between these guys.

Armosino: Dirk, obviously. Hall of Fame.

Cronin: Ryan Anderson. Good, tall shooter. Anderson is a fine player, though. It’s no insult.

Udwary: This is tough. The guy is a legit 7’2” with some long arms. If he can put some weight on, and improve his rebounding, he really has the potential to be Pau Gasol with a 3-point shot. I do hope that happens, and he isn’t just another Bargnani – a 7-footer who doesn’t do anything 7-footers should do.

Fisher-Cohen: I’m gonna say Clifford Robinson. I have no idea.

On a scale from 1 (low) to 5 (high), today I rank this pick …

Kurylo: 4. I’m surprisingly optimistic on this pick. I wasn’t expecting much from the team, but Phil has actually given some hope to the franchise.

Armosino: 3. Porzingis had the highest upside of anybody left on the board. Gambling with a top-5 pick when the Knicks are this asset barren is definitely a risk, but I also liked that Phil is fine playing the long game. Short term thinking is what has killed the Knicks in the past.

Cronin: 4. What were they supposed to do? The three best players were gone. I’d have given them a 4 if they had taken Mudiay, WCS or Winslow, as well. Perhaps this could even bump up to 5 depending on how much credit I want to give them for just taking the risk.

Udwary: 4. It was probably the best they could do with the pick they had. At least they didn’t take Lyles or Kaminski. Also the pick precipitated a Stephen A. Smith Twitter hissy fit. Stephen A. hating it gives the pick much more credence, in my eyes.

On a scale from 1 (low) to 5 (high), 5 years from now I’ll rank this pick …
Kurylo: 2. Unless ‘Zingis learns to rebound or shows he can defend on the NBA level, he’ll be a questionable #4 pick. The odds aren’t great, so I’m going low here & hoping I’m wrong.

Armosino: 5. He’s going to be amazing.

Cronin: 4. I don’t think I’ll judge this pick more harshly or more kindly in five years. I will give them credit for where they were picking, and that’s the same now as it will be in five years.

Udwary: 3. Most likely he will be a serviceable stretch 4 who is a pretty good help defender, but poor rebounder. A solid starter, but not an all-star. The potential is there to be something special, though.

Fisher-Cohen: 4.5. Zinger could be anything from a bust to a superstar. But the fact that the Knicks were willing to take a gamble for once and play for the long term? Priceless.

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Mike Kurylo

Mike Kurylo is the founder and editor of KnickerBlogger.net. His book on the 2012 Knicks, "We’ll Always Have Linsanity," is on sale now. Follow him on twitter (@KnickerBlogger).

273 thoughts to “Kristaps Porzingis Round Table Discussion”

  1. Such an interesting night.

    I’m totally fine with the Porzingis pick. The best part of having a top lottery pick is that you have chance at getting a star. IMHO the top of the draft is not the place to try to hit a single or a double. Yes, sometimes you have a Lebron or Anthony Davis or even Carmelo that you know will be a star, but for lack of that guy I think you need to look into the future and see which guy has the highest chance of being that star. I actually think the first 3 picks have serious holes to their games –KAT can’t play 20 minutes without fouling out against dudes WAY less athletic than him and with WCS guarding all the best guys, Russell can’t guard a lamp post, and Okafor could very well be Al Jefferson 2.0. The noise out there from Woj and all the writers is that there is a lot of sentiment out there among GMs that KP could end up being the best player in this draft. There’s nothing not to like about that. He would DEFINITELY have been the next pick in the draft by Orlando.

    In addition, for all those that think we should have gone with someone who can help you “win now”, literally only nine 19 year old rookies in NBA history have played 30+ minutes/game in their rookie year. Only 21 have played 25+ min/game. I think KP will play 15 minutes/game next year, and average 16 points, 7 rebounds, and 2 blocks per 36. He’ll look bad at times and he’ll look great at times.

    Meanwhile, I’m loving the Jerian Grant and Hernangomez picks. The common thread is all these players are skilled, not just athletes. (not sure why we are stashing Hernangomez — we have no centers on this team!)

    And for any out there that are sad, think of this draft this way. With Porzingis talking trash about Bargnani, it seems very very unlikely that Bargs will be back in 15-16. With Grant in, THJ is out. Literally the 2 worst players on the team were moved out for these 2 guys. That’s probably worth 10 wins in and…

  2. (my first choice would still have been Willie Cauley-Stein but my feeling is that his ankle really did get red-flagged. Nothing worse than having your best pick in years become Greg Oden).

  3. All the comments on here about how (1) as long as the front office picks who they think has the most long-term upside and sticks with him we are happy, and (2) you can’t call this a mistake no matter what happens ex post because a lot of GMs gave pretty quotes about Pours-in-Gas and Winslow slipped to 10…suck. Sure, it’s better than trading the pick for Joe Johnson, but the fact is that 95% of team building in the NBA is about choosing good players. If you choose the wrong players with the best intentions, you lose. Choosing good players is really hard and slathered in luck, but that doesn’t make it immune from judgment. There were a gazillion flowery quotes about both Dion Waiters and Thomas Robinson in 09 when Drummond dropped to 9th, but it was still okay at the time to say that the apparently popular pick was a big mistake. I really hope I’m wrong here, as my ability to judge 86 inch 19 year olds I’ve seen only on youtube and sportsreference.com can’t be too high, but I think is probably a mistake and that Winslow, in particular, will be a better player. I love the Jerian Grant trade. Free money, and a very interesting player despite being 23. I hope his erratic defense improves.

  4. And how about this quote from grumpy, 3 point hating Phil Jackson:

    “This young man has better range perhaps than Pau does, a natural three-point shooter, but that’s the natural evolution of the game at this time.”

  5. I like the pick so long as Phil did due diligence on Zinger’s ability to add weight and strength. He could have started by looking at other family members like his Dad who was at the draft last night. It’s a shame his parents had to hear boos from those moronic fans. In this photo his father looks kind of thin to me?

    If he’s able to add weight and not have it affect his mobility and shooting, watch out. He could be a beast in the PnR as both a dive and pop man. Most intriguing of all is a post game with the jump hook being his money shot. How many PFs have an unblockable (Kareem-like in that respect) jump hook? There are no PFs who will be able to alter it unless they goal-tend. The possibility of his athleticism allowing him to guard the new breed of stretch 4s plus his potential to beast on the block is really something to look forward to. But he needs the weight/strength to establish position on the block as well a to box out on rebounding. Add bulk and he could be Amare-like on the offense.

  6. Guess who this statement was about.

    “(____) lack of strength does affect him here too, though, as he gets moved around rather easily inside the paint, not always being able to hold his ground. He lacks some intensity and toughness on this end of the floor, sometimes allowing himself to get pushed around inside and not offering enough resistance. His high center of gravity and average balance makes it difficult for him to bend his knees and stay in front of opposing slashers attacking him off the dribble.

    Just an average rebounder on the defensive end, (___) shows solid timing boxing out his man, but tends to get pushed around and lets smaller opponents wrestle rebounds away from him. His 5.7 defensive rebounds per-40 is a fairly pedestrian rate and something he’ll have to improve on to see minutes in the NBA.”

    While you are thinking…

    Also, Karl Anthony Towns was considered soft going into College because he played on the perimeter too much. Can the Knicks pull a Caliperi and develop other parts of his game? Offensively, Why can’t he do what Aldrich did this year, be the weak side big and work the 2-man PnR game while occasionally giving him some post touches? I think his athletic ability will allow him to impact the game quicker than people think while he develops. Let him do his Mason Plumlee act as he molds his game. Maybe he won’t be as efficient because of the jump shots he would take but I could live with it.

    Defensively he might suprise people besides I lived through Amar’e, Bargs, and Jah I think I can live with what Porzingis will do as a young player learning on D.

  7. Side note: Does the Bulls drafting Portis mean someone is on the move? Taj
    Gibson maybe?

    After THjr went for a 1st I am not sure what Calderon can get back.

  8. Knowledgeable Knicks fans have been begging the organization to take the long term view for years. We got what we asked for! Now we just need to relax. Porzingis wasn’t my first choice. I wanted WCS or Winslow. But I’m intrinsically a risk averse guy. Phil is going for it and I’m happy.

    1. I’m happy with Porzingis. No one in the NBA is going to be able to guard this kid. If he can play even average defense long term, he’s going to be a very good player.

    2. The Hardaway trade was a homerun.

    3. Hernangomez looks like he may be a first round talent and we got him for 2 future second rounders. I’m happy with that. You can always purchase second rounders.

    The interesting part is how to build the team from here in free agency considering we took a player that may not be able to contribute much in year 1 and doesn’t help the defense at all. This won’t be popular with some, but I think the correct long term move from here is to not worry about fit with Melo at all. Melo is probably already pissed we took a long term approach. Assuming we can’t get Marc Gasol (who would be a great fit with Melo), we should just sign Monroe and a solid wing player (like Wes Matthews) and build the rest of the team. Without much defense, it will become apparent by mid season or so that the team is still a borderline lottery team. Hopefully it will also become apparent that Melo can still play. At that point Melo is probably going to be going nuts and want a trade. We should accommodate him and fill out the rest of the team with some combination of 1st round picks and young players. We can get the defense etc.. that we need.

    Will we trade Melo?

    Before yesterday I thought the chances were close to zero.

    After yesterday, I can see some chance of Melo asking for it and I can see Phil thinking long term and pulling the trigger. It’s at least 25%.

  9. Maybe Rik Smits? But I don’t think they had a defensive rebounds stay when he was playing and his style of play was different.

  10. Porzingis could turn into Chris Bosh if Chris Bosh came into the league as a 3 point shooter. Both are long athletic power forwards and Bosh was never a dominant rebounder or defender, but he was a great scorer who could get his own shot in Toronto. I think I’d settle for a Chris Bosh level talent. That’s worth the #4 pick.

  11. Massive great comp with Bosh. Bosh is slight as fuck and he kind of got stronger and better defensively.

  12. Despite the Knick rebuilding timeline, Phil made the correct decision in re-signing Melo. Granting the no-trade clause was a big mistake but Melo will soon realize that the Knicks will not be competitive over the course of his contract and will agree to a trade to a contender. Phil recently said as much in the Howard Beck profile piece on Bleacher Report. Losing Melo for nothing would have been a disaster. When this deal finally happens it will bring back multiple young assets whose development timeline will better coincide with Prozingis’.

  13. I suppose Skeletor could become a really great scorer some day. That potential isn’t obvious to me. I didn’t want him because he seems more likely to be a very good scorer with significant persistent weaknesses. Not a bust but maybe an important missed opportunity. If the idea is to build a new culture, trigonometric or otherwise, then it makes sense to select your key guys for solid, smart, very high energy D and lots of excellent passing – not just scoring.

    Despite his height, he seems like a 3 to me. Wanting to show he’s tough is nice and necessary but IMO playing to his strengths means doing the best KD imitation that he can.

    Things I like about him: attitude/work ethic – kinda seems like he’s on a mission; very nice stroke; moves well for his size; nice timing and positioning for putbacks; sorta can put it on the floor.
    I’m hoping he eventually becomes very good secondary scoring option and develops good habits for defending the PnR and tall guys on the perimeter.

  14. Despite the Knick rebuilding timeline, Phil made the correct decision in re-signing Melo. Granting the no-trade clause was a big mistake but Melo will soon realize that the Knicks will not be competitive over the course of his contract and will agree to a trade to a contender. Phil recently said as much in the Howard Beck profile piece on Bleacher Report. Losing Melo for nothing would have been a disaster. When this deal finally happens it will bring back multiple young assets whose development timeline will better coincide with Prozingis’.

    Said young assets could have been acquired in a sign and trade, as well, no? But Jackson was adamant against taking on Boozer’s salary for a year, so better to pay Melo a ton for five years.

  15. Apropos to none of this, let’s all take it as a given going forward that when Chris Broussard talks about what the Knicks are going to do, he is wildly guessing. Dude was all over the place yesterday making statements about our intentions, hoping he’d be right so he could establish some credibility going forward. He was way off. So let’s not bother taking him seriously again when it comes to being a Knicks source.

  16. Yeah I agree that would have been the better move. I thought the Knicks could have certainly pried Gibson and Mirotic away from the Bulls or at least Mirotic and a future 1st. Not entirely sure that they won’t be able to get an even better trade package in the future though provided Melo shows he is completely over the knee injury.

  17. I haven’t followed basketball much in a few years, but a few thoughts…

    – While it does seem like strength is a legit weakness for Zinger at this point, basketball strength and bulk aren’t necessarily the same thing. He may never be built like a TE or be a legit NBA post player, but he could become wiry strong. And wiry strong guys can be sufficiently strong in the NBA, or even become defensive enforcers: AK-47, KG, Noah, Prince, ?Noel?… Another insanely skinny guy who has done insanely well in the NBA is Durant. Obviously that’s not a good comparison overall, but if Zinger can do a few of the things Durant does he’ll be a good pick.

    – His outside shooting looks impressive on YouTube, but from what little I’ve seen of Zinger I may be most impressed with his ability to slash and finish at the rim. I have long felt that moving without the ball is a missing skill set in the US, and one of the main advantages European players bring. I might actually start watching the Knicks again if they played more of a motion-based offense and not a traffic-jam, Melo dribbles around for 20 seconds and chucks the ball towards the basket style offense.

    – Was interesting to see the 2nd rounder compared to Felipe Reyes on NBADraft.net. Reyes was one of the best players in Europe, but just didn’t have the size/athleticism to make the NBA jump. I always thought that if he had a few more inches maybe he could be an NBA bigman: solid post-game and decent slasher.

    – Grant looks exciting. Well-rounded G. I haven’t known quite what to make of Jax, but he seemed to get guys who understand how to play within a team concept… a real weakness for the Knicks this century.

  18. Melo will soon realize that the Knicks will not be competitive over the course of his contract and will agree to a trade to a contender

    Quotes like this make me laugh daily. Can we see what the free agent moves are first please?

    Imagine that this is the roster next year

    Calderon
    Dany Green
    Melo
    Porzingis
    Jordan

    Bench
    Grant
    Gallo
    Early
    Thanasis
    West

    Thats a decent team

  19. I think Melo gets traded this season depending on the moves PJax makes. Say we “strike out” in Free Agency and a team like the Lakers lands Kevin Love. What if Melo forces a trade this off season because he doesn’t want to stick around a rebuild and wants to play in LA or Chicago? You think the Lakers would offer us D Russell for Melo? If they did, I think we’d have to take it. I like Melo and I’m happy he took a chance here, and he probably would have beat the Pacers if KG didn’t tear his labrum in the first round that year (or if Tyson Chandler didn’t have a pinched nerve). If I’m Phil, though, I’m going with a full rebuild and that starts with getting Carmelo Anthony to want a trade. Whether that’s to the Clippers/Lakers or Houston Dallas or Chicago is up to who offers up the most for him. But the Doom pick makes me think it’s time to mail in free agency and essentially have Carmelo beg for mercy.

  20. Just a thought:

    Imagine if Porzingis pans out and becomes the best player in the draft, like many say he could be. Imagine if Towns is good but not great. And, in addition, imagine if Grant is a solid starter for the next 7 years.

    We will owe it all to Tim Hardaway Jr going off in two meaningless regular season games, and it will totally change the way we think of that late season two-game winning streak.

    That would be cool.

  21. I have to be true to my words and so I will look at the draft as a whole, not just Zinger. So, late yesterday I said this:

    There are so many good paths the Knicks can take. Why am I so sure we’ll find the bust?
    Dreaming: The Lakers trade the #2 overall pick and next year’s 2nd rounder for Carmelo Anthony. The Knicks select Okafor. Philadelphia selects Mudiay with the #3 pick. The Knicks select Russell with the #4 pick.
    Nightmare: The Knicks draft Mudiay with the #4. They trade him to Phoenix Suns for the #13 and Eric Bledsoe. The Knicks select Frank Kaminsky.

    Earlier in the week I said that I wanted WCS but would be OK with Mudiay, Winslow or Prozingas.
    A month ago I whined about needing a point guard. We haven’t had a great one since Frazier and a really good one since Mark Jackson. Yeah, we had some decent rent-a-players like Kidd and Derek Harper late in their careers, but nobody we drafted or obtained young, developed and kept for a long time.

    My other thing was “I want something for NOW”. It’s that whole “Screw the Future” line of mine.

    So, to rate the draft, I have my checklist:
    1) Get two high, 1st round picks. Grade: B
    2) Get a franchise PG. Grade: B
    3) Get players for now. Grade: C

    What we need to do is:
    1) Find Zinger into Little Italy and introduce him to pasta.
    2) Get him into a gym lifting weights every day.
    3) Sign him up to learn post moves from Hakeem.

    I’m pretty happy with Grant and if we did not have the #4 overall pick, the conversation would be all about him. He projects to have a long and good career as a point guard that fits the system well.

    So, it’s a B/B- draft IMO.
    Let’s not forget that last year was a year to forget for Cleanthony Early but my fingers are crossed that he’ll improve. I’m also hoping that the Knicks bring Thansasis in to play on the team. He showed defensive grit last season in Westchester and is still developi

  22. I’m sold on Porzingis if only due to his familiarity with American culture:

    @bzcohen: “He has a great sense of American culture,” a Kristaps Porzingis teammate told me. “He goes on WorldStarHipHop every day.”

    @bzcohen: I told Kristaps Porzingis this week that I heard he went on WorldStar every day. Zinger’s response: “Not every day.”

  23. I am not particularly happy with the results (fuck you one last time, Tim Hardaway Jr.), but I am happy with the process. We were pretty much drafting 4th in a 3 man draft, so there is enough risk in anyone we would have taken 4th that I wouldn’t have been thrilled with anything but some ridiculous trade down where we ended up with, I dunno, the 5th and 6th pick and a lotto pick next season. I would not have picked Porzingis, but as a bunch of you have pointed out, Phil seems to have gone with the guy he thought was the best player available and didn’t go with whoever he thought was NBA ready.

    Now let’s start complaining about free agency!

  24. I like that lineup too ER but we have no chance in hell of signing Deandre Jordan and we wouldn’t have cap space to sign Jordan, Green, and West assuming you mean David West.

  25. Yeah cant wait til Phil compounds his great draft with a great free agency and people still talk about trading Melo. Knick fans.

  26. The question I would like to ask the round table (and only M F-C touched on it) is “How confident are you that we won’t trade him?”

    As Kevin Udwary indicated, these are some mixed signals:

    Porzingis isn’t the guy who is going to make a major contribution right away. This, of course, completely contradicts the contract that Phil gave Melo, which seeomingly put the emphasis on quickly building a contender around the aging star.

    Is Phil being inconsistent? Has he learned from year one and pivoted? Or is he still on the same path, in which he may have viewed Porzingis as the best trade chip available at 4.

    If we start off free agency by adding Greg Monroe and doing more “build around Melo” moves, how confident is everyone that Porzingis makes it to year 2 as a Knick?

  27. If they did, I think we’d have to take it.

    That trade would be amazing for the Knicks.

  28. Or another good way to develop the Zinger is a line up like what er suggests in 19. Develop him as a starter on a winning team. Calderon, Green, Melo, Doom, and Jordan could work really well for the Knicks, but it’s not really a triangle offense with Jordan on the block. I’m not sure a line-up like that happens, but it would make sense because Doom wouldn’t need to do too much of anything except shoot open jumpers and not get killed defensively. There wouldn’t be too much pressure on him to develop because we could always move Melo to the 4 on offense and let Doom stretch the floor.

  29. I suppose Skeletor could become a really great scorer some day… I didn’t want him because he seems more likely to be a very good scorer with significant persistent weaknesses.

    I’m not sure that getting a “great,” and well-rounded scorer is the right goal in making a draft pick. I would say getting the most productive player is the goal. There are many different ways for a player to be productive. Some guys only do a few things well, but do them extremely well. Other guys do many things fairly well. The few guys that do everything very well are extremely rare, so I don’t know that you should force a pick at #4 trying to find that well-rounded player. (That said, this kid has the raw ability to be a pretty well rounded scoring big-man.)

    That potential isn’t obvious to me…

    Things I like about him: attitude/work ethic – kinda seems like he’s on a mission; very nice stroke; moves well for his size; nice timing and positioning for putbacks; sorta can put it on the floor.

    Seems a bit contradictory. Guy is 7’1″ with a good outside stroke and good ability to get to and finish at the basket. I have no idea if he’ll reach his potential, but it’s there.

    Despite his height, he seems like a 3 to me.

    The 3 and the 4 can be pretty interchangeable depending on system. I don’t know if Zinger has the quickness to guard NBA 3s, but what do I know?

  30. While it does seem like strength is a legit weakness for Zinger at this point, basketball strength and bulk aren’t necessarily the same thing. He may never be built like a TE or be a legit NBA post player, but he could become wiry strong. And wiry strong guys can be sufficiently strong in the NBA, or even become defensive enforcers: AK-47, KG, Noah, Prince, ?Noel?… Another insanely skinny guy who has done insanely well in the NBA is Durant. Obviously that’s not a good comparison overall, but if Zinger can do a few of the things Durant does he’ll be a good pick.

    I absolutely agree, but in that sense, that just makes him look worse, as guys like Noah were stringy but beasts inside. That is where Noah lives (although what sets Noah apart is that he can also work on the perimeter as a passer). That is where he lived in college. That is not where Zinger lives. He barely even visits there to send a postcard home. You know how Bargs often will settle for a contested jumper instead of taking it to the hoop? That’s Zinger’s game right now. That’s why he needs to build strength, so that he won’t shy away from contact. He slashes to the basket well, but only when he has a clear path to the basket. That’s important, no doubt. It’s a good skill to have. But he shies away from contact like crazy. Which is not a bad idea on his part because he’s so skinny, but he needs to be able to bang to be a great player in the NBA. He doesn’t need to become a behemoth, but contact can’t be a deterrent to him.

  31. “I thought the Knicks could have certainly pried Gibson and Mirotic
    Ironic that everyone wanted Mirotic but a lot of those same people are down on Porzingas. Zinger’s numbers in the ACB as a 19 year old were almost identical to Mirotic’s as a 22 year old.
    ” let’s all take it as a given going forward that when Chris Broussard talks about what the Knicks are going to do, he is wildly guessing.”
    You’re just noticing this now? And you’re limiting it to just when he talks about the Knicks?
    Re: European “busts” — in the last two years alone, the following impact Euros have joined the league — Mirotic, Montejunas, G Antetekuompo, Gobert, as well as a bunch of other guys like Papanikolau who seem like they are going to have solid careers.
    Re: picking the guy with the highest upside, but who will take a few years to develop — How many teams are sorry that they passed over the Greek Freak and Gobert?
    Re: Player comps for Zinger — he reminds me of a 4″ taller version of Gallinari.
    Re: Melo — I read somewhere that he was in favor of drafting the Zinger

  32. If we start off free agency by adding Greg Monroe and doing more “build around Melo” moves, how confident is everyone that Porzingis makes it to year 2 as a Knick?

    I am pretty confident that if they didn’t deal him last night, that they are not planning on dealing him period.

  33. The thing much earlier in the post about an unnamed big who can’t guard due to high center of gravity and poor balance and movement—

    I think one of the strengths about zinger in the scoring reports is that he is very well coordinated and moves like a guard. He’s no lumbering ogre.

  34. Apropos to none of this, let’s all take it as a given going forward that when Chris Broussard talks about what the Knicks are going to do, he is wildly guessing. Dude was all over the place yesterday making statements about our intentions, hoping he’d be right so he could establish some credibility going forward. He was way off. So let’s not bother taking him seriously again when it comes to being a Knicks source.

    Nothing beats Chad Ford updating his mock draft five minutes before the draft with a completely different #2-5, but then being completely wrong on it. He had two different #2-5 scenarios yesterday, and they were both way off.

  35. Re: Player comps for Zinger — he reminds me of a 4? taller version of Gallinari.

    When we did our What If… pieces, that was my ideal result for Zinger. Gallo’s game, but from a bigger guy. Gallo’s greatest skill right now is the fact that he takes it right to the hole and gets fouled like crazy, while also having a three-point shot. If Zinger could do that, then watch out!

  36. It’s the Stifle Tower, Rudy Gobert. But Gobert played a lot more in the middle (not as a post-up man, of course) in Europe than Zinger did, so I don’t know if it an apt comparison.

  37. “If we start off free agency by adding Greg Monroe and doing more “build around Melo” moves, how confident is everyone that Porzingis makes it to year 2 as a Knick?”
    Why is everyone still so convinced that Phil isn’t trying to build for the future? The Knicks’ roster this year will have at least five first or second year players (plus two young big guys marinating in Europe). Plus, Monroe, who I like, is 24.

  38. Gallo, Pau-those guys passed the basketball. Porzingis seems to have been coached by Gandalf. Maybe that will change in the NBA, but I don’t think he has an easy comp with other Euros.

  39. Rosalyn Gold onuwe breaking down the triangle on First Take is a a thing of beauty to listen too. :)

  40. Gallo, Pau-those guys passed the basketball. Porzingis seems to have been coached by Gandalf. Maybe that will change in the NBA, but I don’t think he has an easy comp with other Euros.

    Pau is an amazing passer, but Gallo is often a black hole out there, as well, so I think the comp works. But yes, Zinger is a terrible passer. That’s a fair knock.

  41. Imagine that this is the roster next year

    You have the Knicks signing both Jordan and Green, and I think also David West. There is literally no chance in hell of that happening. Even just Green+Jordan is basically impossible. Jordan is going to get max money, which is $20 million year 1 since he’s a 7-year player. This would leave the Knicks $7 million for just Green or $7.6m for Green+West. Green himself is surely getting more than $7 million (and the Spurs would presumably match $7 million). West just opted out of $12.6 million, so if there is no chance he is taking some kind of vet min contract.

  42. Read a scouting report for Grant…
    One of his 2 weakness is was “t00 Unselfish”
    Maybe his weakness can rub off …

  43. The only thing that worries me about Grant is that he’s going to have to adapt to the Triangle. He probably would do better in another offensive system. But he seems like a smart kid who will figure it out.

  44. Pau is an amazing passer, but Gallo is often a black hole out there, as well, so I think the comp works. But yes, Zinger is a terrible passer. That’s a fair knock.

    Gallo is just not a good comp for this guy at all. He can handle a little for a center but compared to Gallo it is truly a different universe. Gallo can cross you over from 30 feet out and bring the ball up the floor. You want Ziner doing that about as much as you wanted Charles Smith doing that. He has agility and body control for a 7 footer but again it is nothing remotely like Gallo. He also has big advantages over Gallo, length and leap and explosion, but that’s why it’s a bad comp.

  45. I absolutely agree, but in that sense, that just makes him look worse, as guys like Noah were stringy but beasts inside. That is where Noah lives (although what sets Noah apart is that he can also work on the perimeter as a passer). That is where he lived in college. That is not where Zinger lives. He barely even visits there to send a postcard home.

    True but you would not have said that about 19 y/o Noah who couldn’t even get on the floor really as a freshman for Billy.

  46. West said he wasn’t opting out because of the money, he wanted a change in fit. I think that means he doesn’t expect to get as much money. How much he expects is a anybody’s guess.

    In terms of Phil rebuilding for the future, the main argument that he’s not totally committed to rebuilding is that he re-signed Carmelo. But he did that before the last season when he apparently expected a better team. Since the middle of the season when he totally broke down the team for a rebuild, he’s been very consistent about going for a total rebuild.

  47. I absolutely agree, but in that sense, that just makes him look worse, as guys like Noah were stringy but beasts inside… That is not where Zinger lives… He slashes to the basket well, but only when he has a clear path to the basket. That’s important, no doubt. It’s a good skill to have. But he shies away from contact like crazy. Which is not a bad idea on his part because he’s so skinny, but he needs to be able to bang to be a great player in the NBA. He doesn’t need to become a behemoth, but contact can’t be a deterrent to him.

    I don’t think Noah is a particularly good comparison, just an example of a (somewhat) skinny guy who is plenty strong to play in the NBA. Noah is a 5. While the range of outcomes for Zinger is pretty huge given where he is developmentally, I doubt he’s going to be an NBA 5.

    Avoiding contact is certainly a concern. I haven’t watched the kid play at all, so I can’t really say. From a few highlight clips, he looked like he moved very well for his size in space and finished above the rim. An effective scorer off the ball.

    This is another 5 who I’m not trying to compare to Zinger overall, but Tiago Splitter is a really good example of what I’m talking about. When he was with Tau he was just great at getting to the basket without the ball. It’s translated well to the NBA (.601 TS%, .183 WS/48). Tiago is not an outside shooter and is a 5 defensively, just comparing the slashing without the ball aspect of their games.

    Mostly speculation… but my guess is that people expecting a post-player will be disappointed, but so will people expecting an NBA-style isolation scorer who creates for himself. The European game is more about the team creating a shot than the player (not entirely, obviously). I imagine Zinger’s good case as a Splitter-like scorer at the rim with a deadly outside shot… a high-efficiency, medium-high volume scorer who may or may not be able to be an NBA-style…

  48. Anyone have any clue of our Starting SG this upcoming season? I am into the 2 PG Lineup with either Grant or Galloway . But aside from them, what FA can you picture signing?

  49. West said he wasn’t opting out because of the money, he wanted a change in fit. I think that means he doesn’t expect to get as much money. How much he expects is a anybody’s guess.

    I agree that he won’t be looking for $12 million, but, I mean, who has ever opted out of a $12 million contract to sign for, like, $5 million? It doesn’t happen like that. Even $8 million a year would be brutal. Dude’s 35 and looked washed up last year!

  50. Mostly speculation… but my guess is that people expecting a post-player will be disappointed, but so will people expecting an NBA-style isolation scorer who creates for himself. The European game is more about the team creating a shot than the player (not entirely, obviously). I imagine Zinger’s good case as a Splitter-like scorer at the rim with a deadly outside shot… a high-efficiency, medium-high volume scorer who may or may not be able to be an NBA-style…

    Sure, Ted, that sounds like a very feasible outcome for Zinger.

  51. I absolutely agree, but in that sense, that just makes him look worse, as guys like Noah were stringy but beasts inside. That is where Noah lives (although what sets Noah apart is that he can also work on the perimeter as a passer). That is where he lived in college. That is not where Zinger lives. He barely even visits there to send a postcard home.

    In fairness, Brian, when Noah lived there in college, it was against other not-fully-developed teenage boys. Zinger has been playing with full grown professional men. It’s tough to go in there consistently when you are so physically overmatched. Perhaps that is part of the reason Noah stayed an additional year instead of jumping into the NBA at a younger age.

  52. It’s the Stifle Tower, Rudy Gobert. But Gobert played a lot more in the middle (not as a post-up man, of course) in Europe than Zinger did, so I don’t know if it an apt comparison.

    Winner winner.

    You are also that Robert played more in the middle but still the thinking was that he was soft and could have problems early.

  53. Gallo, Pau-those guys passed the basketball. Porzingis seems to have been coached by Gandalf. Maybe that will change in the NBA, but I don’t think he has an easy comp with other Euros.

    Pau is an amazing passer, but Gallo is often a black hole out there, as well, so I think the comp works.

    Quoting myself to get that Gandalf line out there again. I give myself an A grade on that one.

    Gallo, the black hole, dished out at least twice as many assists on a rate basis as Zinger did. This kid spent the last two seasons averaging less than one assist per 40 minutes Has anyone watched Sevilla play? Do they run some no passing system? Is there no one on the team besides Porzingis who can make a shot?

  54. Gallo, the black hole, dished out at least twice as many assists on a rate basis as Zinger did. This kid spent the last two seasons averaging less than one assist per 40 minutes Has anyone watched Sevilla play? Do they run some no passing system? Is there no one on the team besides Porzingis who can make a shot?

    Oh sure, like I said, Zinger is a terrible passer. His lack of assists are astonishing. Eddy Curry-esque. Like I said, it’s a fair knock on him.

  55. Why do people want David West? He’s not a bad player at all, but he’s not a particularly good player and is 35 years old. How much is he expected to cost?

    Gallo is just not a good comp for this guy at all

    Agreed. Not many similarities that I can see. Gallo is a wing player and Zinger is more of a soft bigman. People will invariably compare Europeans to Europeans and players from one pro team to players who used to be on the same pro team… but outside of being varying degrees of tall and being good shooters, I don’t really see the comparison.

    When we did our What If… pieces, that was my ideal result for Zinger. Gallo’s game, but from a bigger guy. Gallo’s greatest skill right now is the fact that he takes it right to the hole and gets fouled like crazy, while also having a three-point shot. If Zinger could do that, then watch out!

    Who knows how the kid will develop, but that doesn’t really seem reasonable. Gallo is a tall-wing player with a lot of guard skills. The chances of a kid with basically no guard skills developing them in his 20’s are really remote.

    How come you keep referencing Zinger driving the ball to the basket? From what I’ve seen, that doesn’t really seem like part of his game. Even in an empty gym his handle is really sloppy.

  56. It’s also worth pointing that the two players we draft seem like they could form an unstoppable PnR combination in the future. And we did start playing a lot more PnR based towards the end of the year. So may the triangle isn’t completely set in stone.

  57. How come you keep referencing Zinger driving the ball to the basket? From what I’ve seen, that doesn’t really seem like part of his game. Even in an empty gym his handle is really sloppy.

    You’re absolutely right, I’ve been using the wrong term there. I mean rolling to the basket.

  58. True, but his real skill in the middle is taking it to the hole after getting a pass, not driving himself. In fact, that’s a criticism that I have of him (he settles for jumpers instead of driving to the hoop) so that was my bad for using the wrong lingo earlier.

  59. I agree that he won’t be looking for $12 million, but, I mean, who has ever opted out of a $12 million contract to sign for, like, $5 million? It doesn’t happen like that. Even $8 million a year would be brutal. Dude’s 35 and looked washed up last year!

    Well, Andrei Kirilenko comes to mind. But he didn’t look as good for the Nets as I expected after he was signed so he’s not a very promising comparison.

  60. I think David West is a leadership/culture guy, which our locker room really needs. Agree 100% that leadership and culture better not be a $10MM contract. I think at $8MM x 2 years it’s ok, although I don’t know what that would mean for the rest of our FA plans. We don’t have a center and I think having a really good 2 way wing like Danny Green or Carroll is important. I can semi-imagine something like splitting up the FA money between Koufos, Grant, and one of the wings, although i’m not even sure if we have enough $ for that.

  61. Re: comps

    I still vividly remember Channing Frye being a weak, skinny outside shooter his rookie year. The Knicks tried to get him to “bulk up” over the off season. He did and his shooting got a lot worse and his rebounding stayed bad. He went on to have a mediocre career as a competent three point shooting center that never did learn how to rebound.

    So the floor for KP seems to be a guy like that, who isn’t useless, but just too weak to play inside. Other guys that come to mind are a Terry Mills, Donyell Marshall, and Brad Lohas.

    Lohas was an interesting guy as he was a 21st century player playing a 20th century game. He shot a ton of 3s before it was fashionable, especially for centers. At 7’0 he was a horrible rebounder, but could sometimes block a shot or two. Lohas played 10 years and was pretty bad, so obviously you want more than that from the #4 pick, but maybe if he’d been born 10 years later he too could have been Dirk Nowistki?

    Also, as weak, skinny euro comps go, Detlef Schrempff also fits the bill. Schrempff had a good career with a few excellent “peak” years, despite being a weak rebounding, perimeter PF.

    So though the comps for really tall, weak, poor rebounding guys aren’t great, there is hope that, even if he doesn’t bulk up, he won’t be a total bust.

  62. Another good thing about Zinger. He’s so skinny that at certain angles he’s invisible.

  63. Gallo, the black hole, dished out at least twice as many assists on a rate basis as Zinger did. This kid spent the last two seasons averaging less than one assist per 40 minutes Has anyone watched Sevilla play? Do they run some no passing system? Is there no one on the team besides Porzingis who can make a shot?

    Gallo is also a wing player, while Zinger is a bigman.

    Who knows how he’ll develop, but Zinger just does not seem like someone with the ball skills to run your offense through. More of a finisher than an initiator.

  64. Rik Smits was very thin and could be pushed around when he got to college. He developed well, and didn’t lose his shooting touch. The reason one thinks of him as a strong big man is that he developed in college, but he wasn’t like that when he was 19.

  65. Smits could be a great comp if the Knicks plan to use KP in the post. But the game has changed and the “stretch 5” is en vogue.

    Smits was an excellent player and the Knicks would be lucky to get that kind of career out of him.

    That said, Smits had 4 foot surgeries, back surgery, and surgeries in both if his ankles. All were to fix height related injuries including nerve damage in his feet from growing too fast.

    So there is the bitter truth that tall people don’t age well, and that super tall people tend to be walking injury reports.

  66. Prozingis is a 7′ 3″ big man with shooting touch that goes all the way out to the 3 point line, the athletic ability to bang his head on the rim if he tried, and enough handle to get to the rim and finish.

    There are no true comparisons.

    If he gets a little stronger so he can get to the hoop and finish inside better there will be no one in the NBA that can cover him. NO ONE! He’s almost a mortal lock to be a VERY GOOD offensive player. If he’s the gym rat they say he is and can become close to a 40% 3 point shooter like Dirk, forgetaboutit.

    The potential downsides are mostly on the defensive end and rebounding. He won’t be strong enough to cover legit strong Cs on the inside and probably won’t be fast enough to cover small stretch PFs on the outside. How that resolves itself will be the key to his overall value.

  67. Re PJ being inconsistent. I’m beginning to warm to him running the Knicks. I never liked the guy previously, despite his Knick playing days. To me he always seemed smug, etc. In fact, he still does. Then, he takes over the Knicks and resigns Melo. Like some of you, I wanted Melo gone — sign and trade to Chicago, etc. I’m not a Melo fan at all. I see two possibilities on how PJ views the Knicks.

    First, perhaps Phil misjudged the team last year, that they could make the playoffs, etc. Thus the deal to get a triangle friendly Calderon (I still don’t think that was a bad deal at the time…he also got the Knicks 3 young players to get a good look at). However, if so, I think he might have learned from that initial mistake and is now going for a longer build. I did like the dumping of Shumpert and JR (especially, can’t stand him) and am fine with what he got for that. That would show him learning and adapting from a mistake.

    The other possibility is that Phil views Melo as a Bill Parcells “hold the fort” guy. Melo is a big name. He sells tickets. He can score and rebound. Either he’s thought that way all along, or maybe he thinks so, now. The free agents he signs might show if this is the case. I’d much rather sign a Monroe than a West and/or Rondo. Shudder.

    Either way, thus Porzingis is taken since Okafor did not fall to #4. I’m very happy with last night’s draft. We got a big guy (he’s a legit 7’2″) who has a sweet stroke. I watched all the videos and read the scouting on him last night. The guy should be able to score right out of the box and offer some weak side shot-blocking, probably on a second unit. His floor is early Gallinari. His ceiling, as some others have said, might be a taller Bosh with even more shooting range. Then, Phil gets Grant for for THJ (!) and takes a flyer on a Euro C with limited upside but good size and skill. I’ll take that!

  68. Has anyone herd anything about the undrafted FA signings? M. Fraizer(1 of Pelton top rk shooters), Christian woods, Cliff Alexander, and Robert Upshaw are quality pick ups.

  69. I think I saw last night that Woods will be on our summer league team, but maybe I hallucinated it at 1 a.m.

  70. OH OH OH — Question!

    Lots of rumors about trading the 4th down depended on who were picked top 3.
    So if one of the big three were to drop we would’ve traded him to someone else for assets?
    I wonder who it would’ve been they had things in the works for.
    Did anyone else hear about that or anything like that?

  71. Garson, great question about who is our starting two guard. What about John Jenkins of the Hawks? He’s a young free agent shooting guard who has a good TS% but had a tough lineup to crack.

  72. I didn’t like the pick. If we couldn’t have Russell, I wanted Winslow or WCS. Having Pat Riley picking Winslow at 10 was even worst for me. I hope I’m wrong, but my gut tells me we drafted the next Bargniani or Milicic. Having said that, I’m very happy with the trade for J. Grant. I’m waiting again for the Knicks to do something “good” if not “great” in free agency. I’ll be happy if we can sign players like Caroll, Green, D. Jordan…even Harris from Orlando. If we end up signing Marc Gasol, I’ll do my best effort trying to do a back flip….(as Dr. Cox in Scrubs)

  73. @30
    My post may have been confusing. Main points: I like the idea of using this rebuild to establish a new team culture. I’d prefer that a new team identity be formed around a relentless swarming defense and lots of passing on offense. Based on limited info, Porzingis doesn’t seem to move the Knicks in that direction. So, even if he’s able to maximize the value of what he’s good at, I wish we’d picked someone more consistent with those goals. I’m not overconfident in my opinions about how he’ll turn out or what’s best for the team, but in my opinion this could end up being a missed opportunity to help establish a better less scorer-driven team culture.

  74. As of now, I think Galloway is our starting 2-guard. He’s better at the 2 than the 1.

  75. Melo is supposedly (denial surely forthcoming) saying Phil screwed him last night. That would be the best thing about the draft if itplays out.

  76. Any reaction to actor Michael Rapaport’s rant about the Porzingis pick? Good grief, the guy might be a lot like the narcissistic redneck character he played on Justified a couple of years ago.

  77. Credit to Phil for staying at 4 and making the ballsy pick, and he did pull off an absolutely great deal with the THJ for Grant swap. But I’m not really a fan of Zinger at all. He doesn’t seem like he has a great feel for or understanding of the game (seriously that assist rate is scary). He doesn’t have anywhere near the handle (or the vision) to have the ball a lot on the perimeter, and he doesn’t have anywhere near the body to play in the post. Unless he’s completely changing his game he’s going to be basically a catch and shoot player as far as I can tell. To me Channing Frye is the right comp.

    More athletic Channing Frye is a pretty good player because Frye is already a pretty good offensive player just because his shooting really warps defenses. Defending a pick and pop where the pick man is a legit threat from 3 is extremely difficult. Add a semblance of a pump and go game and you have a potentially really good offensive player – albeit more of a complimentary one than a star. And he has the length to be pretty good on D, although it doesn’t seem like anyone expects him to be more than average on that end. So rich man’s Channing Frye I can see and honestly that might be a borderline all-star.

    I just don’t see the high upside with this guy that so many seem to. If he’s going to be a star it’s going to be because of the scoring, because the secondary skills just aren’t there. And I can’t see at what position he’s going to have the ball in his hands enough to be a dominant scorer.

  78. Here’s my Zinger comp I haven’t seen anywhere else yet:

    Jonathan Bender.

    Interesting one.

    Or what about this one: Ralph Sampson

  79. “Not many similarities that I can see. Gallo is a wing player and Zinger is more of a soft bigman. ”
    Not true — Gallo has played 38% of his minutes as a power forward and 13% as a center. His last year with the Knicks, he played 67% of his minutes at the 4 — and most people here loved him in that role (and he is a lousy rebounder)
    “I still vividly remember Channing Frye being a weak, skinny outside shooter his rookie year”
    Your memory couldn’t be more incorrect. In his two years with the Knicks, he took a grand total of 27 3 pointers. It wasn’t until his fifth year in the league that he started really bombing away and took over 400 threes, making over 40% of them.
    “So though the comps for really tall, weak, poor rebounding guys aren’t great”
    Zinger is not a great rebounder, but he did average 8 per 36 minutes this year, which is not great, but it is more than a whole lot of starting 4’s in the NBA (and not much less than Jahlil Okafor averaged this year).
    “Smits could be a great comp if…”
    If only their games were even remotely similar.
    “The potential downsides are mostly on the defensive end and rebounding.”Which would make him very similar to Dirk, who has averaged 8 rebounds/36 for his career. But Zinger is a much better shot blocker.
    “How come you keep referencing Zinger driving the ball to the basket?”
    Because I’ve seen a bunch of video of him driving to the basket. And being on the receiving end of alley-oops.

  80. Stephen A. reporting Melo feels “betrayed and hoodwinked” by Phil. I really hope he’s hoodwinked enough to demand a trade.

  81. Aw, Melo feels betrayed and hoodwinked. Rub some money on it and get back in the game, buddy.

  82. Wait we got Porzingis and pissed off Melo at the same time?

    I thought Christmas only cums once a year, cuz that looks like a win-win from where I’m standing.

  83. “Stephen A. reporting Melo feels “betrayed and hoodwinked” by Phil. I really hope he’s hoodwinked enough to demand a trade.”
    According to SAS and Isola, which makes the odds of it being true pretty small.

  84. I’m good w/ the pick … we’re not winning the chip anytime soon unless we find a potential star that we don’t have to trade a boatload of assets for. Outside of outlier situations where players take less to join up — the star player on those teams have been drafted by that team. The only other player I would have been interested in at the #4 slot would have been Mudiay — but he has issues too, his lack of shooting touch and lack of fit with the system. What’s easier to fix, Kristaps strength and low post moves, or Mudiay’s 54% FT shooting and 3 point shot? WCS is going to be a good one dimensional player, but not a super star and to be Winslow has Michael Kidd-Gilchrist written all over him…good player in college, tweener, not a great shooter, differentiation driven by effort over talent

  85. Your memory couldn’t be more incorrect. In his two years with the Knicks, he took a grand total of 27 3 pointers.

    Reread the original statement. I said “outside shooter”, which frye was. When he failed to “bulk up” effectively he had to expand his range or be forced out of the league.

  86. Re: all these comps, I’m not saying any of them aren’t good. I personally know next to nothing about the guy, and I trust youtube clips as far as I can throw them.

    But if Nowitzki isn’t the right comp, this isn’t a good pick. We’re drafting him in the hopes that is what he can become, not another Gallo or a taller Detlef Schrempf.

    EDIT: I will settle for Phil’s comp of “Gasol with a 3 pt shot”

  87. The Knicks are developing the team on three tracks simultaneously. Just as Phil has said. The hope is for confluence.

    The short and medium term tracks build into the long term.

    Zinger gets to gradually develop as a complementary offensive player, instead of a Darko situation (championship level team with conflicting incentives) or on an organization pressured to fast-track a raw player into a franchise player for sake of job security.

    Most “true rebuilds” fail because they put too much on their first group, which either stunts or completely destroys positive individual development and team/winning culture and ensures perpetual failure.

    Two years ago, Melo and Chandler had a legitimate chance to make the finals with a supporting cays which included 7 rotation players either out of the league or in highly diminished roles 2 years thereafter.

    Was there another non-Lebron/Durant/Davis club where Kidd, Camby, Wallace, Brewer, Novak, Amare, Felton, Smith, K-Mart, Shumpert, Prigs, Quentin Richardson could serve as the supporting cast to a No. 2 seed?

    Melo haters can chew on that for awhile.

    He won’t need much to make the Knicks highly competitive…soon, and with a much younger group that can sustain success as the Knicks develop the long term track.

    There’s no reason what happened two years ago can’t happen next year. Nor should it hinder the Knicks from slowly developing and acquiring the core players of a the next highly competitive group of teams in 4-7 years.

  88. Porzingis could be a pretty unique player if he develops the right way, sort of like Ryan Anderson with shot-blocking ability who is also good at finishing at the rim.

  89. Any reaction to actor Michael Rapaport’s rant about the Porzingis pick? Good grief, the guy might be a lot like the narcissistic redneck character he played on Justified a couple of years ago.

    Yeah, I do, in fact.

    We need better national spokesmen. I’m tired of idiots like Stephen A Smith and Michael Rappaport being the go to guys for Knicks fans’ perspective. Spike at least doesn’t embarrass us, but he is firmly in the win now, screw the future camp, so he doesn’t help our cause (and frankly, given what he pays for seats, I don’t blame him).

    Jason Concepcion (i.e. @n3twrk) needs to be promoted, despite the fact that he supports the most insufferable football team in the Barclays Premier League, nay the world.

  90. QUITE FRANKLY If Porzingis leads to Melo demanding a trade than it was a great pick even if he never plays a minute in the NBA.

  91. Because I’ve seen a bunch of video of him driving to the basket. And being on the receiving end of alley-oops.

    That’s really not his game, though (the occasional YouTube highlight aside). I really meant rolling, as that’s where his game around the basket really lies, taking passes to the basket, not driving on his own (it could be his game, though).

  92. My 1st thought post draft? Well one, Phil. Not only has he started the process of building for future seasons, but he still has the cap space win now with young vets. He didn’t make any stupid trades that would cost us future assets, and he didn’t trade the pick for a veteran that would gobble up cap space. As far as the picks- with the #4 he picked a 19 year old who is still growing on and off the court and has a tremendous upside. Will he get there? That’s up to coaching and the system/environment. He won’t be a star in year 1 or year 2, but he will contribute. Off the bench, particularly against back up 4’s and 5’s. Then he flipped THJ into the 19th pick- Jerian Grant. This kid will probably start in year 1. Either at the 2 or the 1. He has the talent, game, and BBall IQ to do so. That was a helluva move. Then he bought a 2nd round prospect at center. I have no argument with that move either. According to his bio, he could probably make the roster- but I look for him to be stashed in the D-League for a season to get some seasoning. As I said last night, let’s just hope Phil doesn’t screw up free agency. Hopefully he doesn’t reach for Gasol. I think he will fit very well here, but he’s 30. How many years of basketball that justifies his contract does he have left? We’re already paying 1 30 year old a huge chunk of money. How about retaining Cole, Shved, Ledo, and Lance Thomas while goin after Monroe and Danny Green? Hell..I’d even be ok with retaining Amundson. Then Phil can probably fill in the blanks with cheap shooters and defenders. That’s a nice start to a rebuild while still being competitive in the EC. LOL..all last week most of us were like “will the draft just get here already?”. Now we’re probably like “will July 1 just get here already?” I know I am. Mad Anxious..

  93. But if Nowitzki isn’t the right comp, this isn’t a good pick. We’re drafting him in the hopes that is what he can become, not another Gallo or a taller Detlef Schrempf.

    But a healthy Gallo is already practically an All-Star, so wouldn’t a better version of Gallo be a star?

  94. Melo haters can chew on that for awhile.

    I’m curious as to who you consider a “Melo hater”. For example, I don’t hate Carmelo Anthony as a person at all, I don’t even hate him as a player. I just think that rationally looking at our cap situation and the like, we’d be better off without him (both short and long term, by the way). Do I qualify?

  95. everyone’s calling porzingis a 19yo.. and he is now .. but he’ll be 20 in Aug…

  96. So there is the bitter truth that tall people don’t age well, and that super tall people tend to be walking injury reports.

    Super-tall guys have tended to be very injury prone, but overall there’s an argument that NBA big-men tend to age better than a lot of guards and wings who rely a lot on quickness to play in the NBA.

    Prozingis is a 7? 3? big man

    Is this true? Not that these things are very accurate, but he’s listed at 7’1″ on NBADraft.net and 7’0″ on DraftExpress.com.

    He’s almost a mortal lock to be a VERY GOOD offensive player.

    What leads you to that conclusion? This isn’t entirely the impression that I’ve gotten, not that I know much about the guy. It seems like there’s some potential he’ll be somewhat limited to the outside if things don’t go well developmentally. I’m optimistic, I just didn’t get the impression he was a lock offensively.

    Defensively I think his length + athleticism could allow him to be a fine defender at the 4 if he has the desire and work ethic… but, again, I haven’t seen much of the guy.

    Here’s my Zinger comp I haven’t seen anywhere else yet:

    Jonathan Bender.

    I had completely forgotten about Bender’s existence… While Bender may be remembered as a bust, his career was totally derailed by injury right when he got to drinking age and put together a couple of good seasons. Certainly possible for Zinger (or anyone), but the issue with a Bender comp is that we have no idea how good an NBA player he might have been himself.

    I don’t know that Bender had the ability to get to and finish at the basket without the ball that Zinger does. I also remember Bender as a pretty decent wing defender, which I’m not sure Zinger would be. Tall, skinny bigmen who can shoot, though, I’ll give you that.

  97. I like both Porzingas and Grant. They both come from solid basketball families. Grant was one of my favorite players in the tourney this year. And getting to watch Stephen A. Smith work himself up into a rage over the Porzingas pick is worth the gamble.

    In other news, saw a story that David West purportedly opted out of his $12.6M deal to sign with the Knicks. Love his grit, but at 34, not so sure what kind of deal PJax would offer him.

    http://www.nj.com/knicks/index.ssf/2015/06/will_the_knicks_sign_pacers_free_agent_forward_dav.html

  98. Totes, I’m with you on Monroe and Danny Green, if they can be signed. That should make Melo happy, too, not that I care about that. If the SAS/Isola stuff is true, I hope he asks to be traded right now.

    I’m fine with Gasol, too, despite his age. Pretty much nothing suggests that he’s leaving Memphis, though. But, with guys like JR and West opting out of deals with teams that they should stay with, who knows?

    For the vet minimum guys, Cole and Amundson are fine. The Knicks still need some bigs.

  99. Channing Frye is a softie, and to a lesser extent so is Gallo. None of the two is a good comp to Zinger, who seems like a tough kid and an overachiever personality. I know these kind of observations are looked down at over here but have you guys seen him go for blocks, and putback dunks? He’s a legit go for it kind of guy.

    Does seem like a bad rebounder and passer though.

  100. From DraftExpress:
    Porzingis is a prototypical player in terms of the physical attributes and raw skills that scouts salivate over in their search for the next young European (star?) big man.

    First his physical attributes. He’s tall (easily 7’2), and a very fluid athlete that runs the court very well, has a very nice first step and is a decent leaper. He’ll never be a power player in the paint, but his frame suggests that his bulk will be adequate for the power forward position in the future.

    Second are his skills. What distinguishes him from most American prospects his age is his complete outside game. He can handle the ball pretty well, and has a great stroke from anywhere on the court, complete with a quick and high release point. He can catch and shoot or put the ball on the floor to beat any big man off the dribble, going aggressively to the rim to finish, or stop and pull up for a sweet jump shot. What sets him apart from other 7 footers is his coordination and quickness to put the ball on the floor to drive to the basket.

    He’s going to be a match-up nightmare in his prime once he gets stronger, probably being the player most resembling a young Dirk Nowitzki that you’ve seen in a while.

    Weaknesses
    His main asset is also his biggest problem: while his versatility makes him a potentially very unique prospect in a positive way in the long run, it’s also difficult to immediately project him at one specific position in the NBA. At some point he will have to decide between the small forward and power forward positions, but he will have his weaknesses playing at both, especially defensively.


    Just kidding – that was Bargs 10 years ago.

  101. I remember the last time Melo got upset about our draft — when we didn’t take Josh Selby, who is out of the league now. No one even remembers that now.

    This’ll all blow over.

  102. Channing Frye is a softie, and to a lesser extent so is Gallo. None of the two is a good comp to Zinger, who seems like a tough kid and an overachiever personality. I know these kind of observations are looked down at over here but have you guys seen him go for blocks, and putback dunks? He’s a legit go for it kind of guy.

    Does seem like a bad rebounder and passer though.

    Zinger might be tough, personality-wise, but he plays soft. Ever since we’ve been discussing him the last couple of months, I’ve watched all the game footage I can find on the internet (which is surprisingly a lot – yay for technology!), and he is as soft as butter out there. I don’t even blame the guy, as with a body like that, it wouldn’t make a lot of sense to be banging into people, especially if you don’t want to get injured and screw up a multi-million dollar NBA contract. Towards the end of the season, teams were just sending players right at him, as they know he shies away from contact.

  103. I remember the last time Melo got upset about our draft — when we didn’t take Josh Selby, who is out of the league now. No one even remembers that now.

    This’ll all blow over.

    You know my rule. Always ignore everything Melo says. He is a fine player, but he is an awful communicator.

  104. @111 — judging from that bargs write up, part of the problem in his development was that he was misused. They day he lacks the strength to play 4 and speed to play 3 so Toronto stuck him at 5? Not to mention he was the primary option for his early career. Plus at that time Toronto management was in the running with the Knicks for worst FO, NA. Hopefully we are more careful handling zinger

  105. I’m sure this has been said above, but the best thing about this draft is that the front office is officially no longer beholden to the team’s “star”. The FO does what it thinks is in the best short and long term interest of the team. Same thing as Belichick does for the Pats, as much as I can’t stand Belicheat. It’d be better if the star was on board with the plan a la Tim Duncan, but short of that, I’d much rather have a competent FO and a momentarily disgruntled star than have a rollover FO.

    Just think how far we’ve come from Grunwald hiding in his hotel room from Houston and Chris Smith getting a roster spot just because JR agrees to play golf with Dolan. Finally – the process seems right. Let’s hope the results follow.

  106. Speaking of terrible rebounders, holy shit Jerian Grant rebounds like a midget.

    Bargs wasn’t misused. He just sucked. You cannot correctly use a player who is terrible at everything unless you trade him to a team run by idiots.

  107. Just think how far we’ve come from Grunwald hiding in his hotel room from Houston

    That’s my second or third favorite Knicks moment of the last decade.

  108. That Stephen A. Smith Twitter Hissy Fit…

    Is it me, or has Stephen A. become “Basketball Al Sharpton”? Like, at some point even his people (basketball analysts) are gonna be like “Dude… just stop already. You’re giving us all a bad name.”

    I like the KP pick just fine, but am kinda more excited about the Grant for Hardaway trade. That guy has heart and fire to go with his solid skills.

  109. People seem to be going a little “comp” crazy right now. While it’s interesting to wonder what kind of NBA player he will become, comps are only moderately useful. Few players are really the next anyone, they’re mostly all somewhat unique (especially 7-footers with good outside shots, since there are fewer historical comparables).

    everyone’s calling porzingis a 19yo.. and he is now .. but he’ll be 20 in Aug…

    Exact age only matters so much… Different players have different development arcs. The idea is that he’s young and has some room for development physically and basketball-wise.

    I just don’t see the high upside with this guy that so many seem to. If he’s going to be a star it’s going to be because of the scoring, because the secondary skills just aren’t there. And I can’t see at what position he’s going to have the ball in his hands enough to be a dominant scorer.

    I don’t think it’s clear he’ll be a truly dominant scorer, but I’ll take an efficient medium-to-high volume scorer over a medium or low efficiency “dominant” scorer.

    I do think the potential is clearly there, but it’s going to take some development. Developing a post-game is obviously a possibility at his size. If his shooting is really very good it’s possible to move from pure spot-up guy to having the ability to head-fake and create a shot. It’s one (of the best) of many possible outcomes, but if he develops a decent post game and the ability to head-fake to create his own shot… he sounds a lot like Dirk.

    And I’m not sure the secondary skills aren’t there. Guy is long. He had a steal and a block per game in about 20 minutes this season, so I think there’s a chance that his length + athleticism allow him to be a difference maker or at least adequate defensively. While he doesn’t seem to be a rebounder, 8 per 36 minutes in the ACB this season doesn’t seem totally pathetic. Passing would be…

  110. That Stephen A. Smith Twitter Hissy Fit…

    That really has been the best side effect of this draft pick. Hmmm…actually, I think that this must be it for Bargs is the best side effect, but watching SAS lose his shit is #2.

  111. The more I think about it the more we need David West here (on a reasonable contract). There’s just no doubt that Melo needs a strong veteran presence around like in 2012 with Kidd/Sheed/Kurt Thomas. I’m a Melo fan, but he’s a child, always wanting his cake and eating it too. Pretty much everyone who has been on a team with Melo says the same things – he needs veteran leadership and that he himself is not the type of guy who can take ownership of a locker room. Get David West and control the locker room. Get a grit/grind PF that can teach Porzingis how to use his body in the paint.

    Pretty cool that there isn’t a single player left on this roster that Phil isn’t responsible for bringing/keeping.

  112. Interesting:

    @JaredZwerling: Source: Clips & Mavs front-runners for D. Jordan. To meet w/ Clips, Mavs, Lakers, Bucks & possibly NYK. Mavs = possible sign-&-trade option.

    Zwerling is also the guy that put out the David West tweet. Could we possibly blow all our money on those two? Jordan, West, Melo front court – wow would that be different.

  113. It’s funny how Melo reported quotes are almost exactly the same as what SAS was saying directly after the draft before he talked to Melo.

    Also, the Isola quotes feel like they came from Hardaway Jr…

    Melo said he hated to see me leave and from what he has been hearing the big dude is 3yrs away. Okay, I have to pack now, bye.

  114. Yeah, like Melo used the word “hoodwinked” in describing his feelings about the draft. That word was used by SAS in his rant… which, although completely ridiculous, I have to say that for the first time ever, I think I agree with Stephen A Smith.

  115. Dear Carmelo Anthony: so far, playing your way, the Knicks have been horrible. So until you actually win something as a pro, shut…the…hell…up, you cancerous tumor.

  116. QUITE FRANKLY If Porzingis leads to Melo demanding a trade than it was a great pick even if he never plays a minute in the NBA.

    Does anybody think Phil’s recent quote that he’s not interested in signing players who are only interested in money and their branding was directed at Melo? It really appears that way to me. It’s just a bizarre statement even by Jax’s standards. Perhaps, after Melo’s injury and slowness to embrace the Triangle, Phil is trying to tempt him to want out.

  117. Phil definitely took some jabs at Melo in the Times when talking about Melo playing in the All-Star game, but that’s just what Phil does. He’s always taken little shots at his players in the press.

  118. Honestly I think I’d rather have West than Monroe. West is a great passer (20% assist rate last year) and a superior defender even at his age. He’ll presumably come a lot cheaper and for fewer years, and will have a much easier time kicking Melo into shape. Assuming Gasol and Deandre aren’t coming, give me Robin Lopez or Koufos at $12MM/year. Give West $8MM/year x 2 years. Save some cap space for the big splurge next summer.

    Also — in the back of my mind I still have a suspicion that Andrew Bynum’s name will come up.

  119. This was not a choice between “win now” and “build for the future.” That is a false dichotomy. To build for the future, you have to pick useful players, and I am not confident at all that Porzingis is going to be a useful NBA player. Big guy who can shoot but can’t rebound or defend? 7’2 and about 140lbs dripping wet? I hate to fall into the comparison trap, but I keep thinking of Tskitishvili, another sweet-shooting big man lottery reach who was a complete and utter bust.

    People who want to be optimistic are going to project like crazy onto this kid. There is not much of a real track record to look at, and he’s a child, so one can look at his body and the existing basketball skills he has and think “if just about everything goes right, he could be great!”

    That’s called “reaching.” I’m sorry, but I am in the camp that there are guys who were available at #4 — WCS, Winslow, and Mudiay in particular — who are absolutely going to be impactful players in the NBA.

    And Christ almighty, Jackson complains about 3 point shooting, says that penetration and rebounding are the keys to winning basketball, and is the advocate for an offensive system built around ball-movement, and then goes a guy whose main basketball skill is perimeter shooting?

    I hope I’m wrong. I’m hoping this guy comes in and shows us all kinds of tools we didn’t know he had and develops into a megastar. Of course. I’m committed to this stupid franchise for life.

    The Jerian Grant trade was terrific — getting a mid-first-rounder for the actually-terrible Tim Hardaway Jr? Yes please. More like that.

  120. I think we need to try and use our second rounders to draft more scorers a la THJr – let them play and suck one year while racking up PPG, then flip em for better assets. POINTZ FTW.

  121. i have no reason why we are thinking of west… 3 consecutive years of clear decline and age 35… are we just going to overpay a handful of mediocre players who probably won’t be in the nba by the end of their deal?

  122. @131 – Tskitishvili grew up as a dancer that switched to basketball because he became too tall to be a dancer. Porzingas’ mother, father and brothers are all basketball players. It’s practically in his dna. He’s the basketball equivalent to Mona Lisa Vito. I’m cautiously optimistic.

  123. Honestly I think I’d rather have West than Monroe. West is a great passer (20% assist rate last year) and a superior defender even at his age. He’ll presumably come a lot cheaper and for fewer years, and will have a much easier time kicking Melo into shape. Assuming Gasol and Deandre aren’t coming, give me Robin Lopez or Koufos at $12MM/year. Give West $8MM/year x 2 years. Save some cap space for the big splurge next summer.

    Also — in the back of my mind I still have a suspicion that Andrew Bynum’s name will come up.

    West is a perfect MLE guy, but even at $8 million he’s overpaid. And I don’t see him turning down $12 million to sign a 2-year/$16 million deal. I like veteran leadership, as well, but West has been getting worse every season and I don’t think you can get him for just two years. If they can, then sure, fair enough, I guess. It’s not exactly impressive, either, though.

  124. Knicks fans deserve better beat guys than Isola or Stephen A. Those fuckwits basically exist to create drama out of nothing. New Yorkers assume that everyone would want to live and play in the Mecca… but the press environment is so toxic. And that stuff filters down into the fans.

    I’ll admit to not being the most optimistic when it comes to the Knicks — time and time again I’ve tricked myself into believing whatever plan was being put forth — and I’ve always been disappointed. But there is something troubling (and hilarious!) about seeing 10 year old kids booing players they know nothing about at the Draft. It’s just expected that the Knicks will never do anything right, and that rooting for them is a fool’s errand.

    Contrast this with the blessed Lakers, who lucked into our draft slot, picked a super promising young guard, and suddenly are a rumored free agency destination for top tier guys and a possible trade destination for Boogie Cousins (who, by the way, the Lakers have basically no assets with which they can acquire, unless they decide to pass on Russell immediately).

    Phil talks about “changing the culture” which is a thing that actually needs to happen, but ain’t nothing gonna change when Carmelo Anthony is your top gun. That’s just factorial.

  125. Where did this thing come from that Porzingis can’t defend? Fran Fraschilla has said he has Kirilenko-like tools on the defensive end and that he just has to get stronger. Of course he needs to get stronger so gets bullied sometimes.

    At the end of the day many many GMs seem to think he has enormous potential. Literally every scout says that if he wasn’t European there’d be no question he’d go in the top 2-3.

    Maybe Brian has seen a lot of film but the rest of us have watched maybe his workout video and his DX scouting video and nothing else — and we’re supposed to be experts on this guy and can project how he’s going to turn out in 2-3 years?

  126. I don’t think it’s clear he’ll be a truly dominant scorer, but I’ll take an efficient medium-to-high volume scorer over a medium or low efficiency “dominant” scorer.

    I agree with you there Ted. My only point was if his main skill is scoring, and he doesn’t look like he’s going to be a dominant scorer, then it’s hard for me to picture him as a future star. I think he can be a very good secondary scoring option who is adequate on defense (will probably get a good number of steals and blocks as you say because he undoubtedly has the arms, but other aspects of his D seem unlikely to make him a star on that end), and adequate on the glass.

    Now don’t get me wrong, that’s obviously a very nice player. But I think everyone is in agreement that he’s a risk, and given the riskiness of the pick, the reason he was the fourth pick in the draft is because people see superstar upside. I, personally, find it hard to see how he’s going to grow into that. But as you said he’s a very unique player, and if anyone is going to break the mold it could be him. He definitely has a lot of talents. I’m just not in love with how the pieces fit together.

  127. Channing Frye is a softie, and to a lesser extent so is Gallo.

    Don’t think I would describe Gallo as soft. Guy lives on creating contact and getting to the line. He is a good shooter, and he is a wing player even though he’s relatively tall for the wing… He’s also not athletic for an NBA wing, so he’s not going to be a real plus defensively. I think people often mislabel players as soft based on certain qualities and Gallo has several of those qualities.

    Zinger might be tough, personality-wise, but he plays soft.

    I think you have to put him in the context of an 18, 19 year old bigman who clearly isn’t fully developed physically playing in the 2nd best national league in the world. Per 40 minutes, 19 year old season (Pau Gasol, Zinger)

    Pts: 11.3, 19.8
    2P%: 58% on 6.1/40, 53% on 11.5/40
    3P%: 30% on 2.1/40, 31% on 4.3/40
    FTA: 4.6, 4.6
    ORB: 2.6, 3.0
    DRB: 4.5, 5.9
    TRB: 7.1, 8.9
    Ast: 1.2, 0.8
    Stl: 1.0, 1.6
    TO: 1.1, 2.4 (totally different usage)
    Blk: 1.4, 1.8
    Own shots blked: 0.5, 0.3
    Fouls drawn: 4.1, 4.5

    This is something like comparing a 19 year old baseball player playing against NCAA competition or in short-season ball to a 19 year old playing against AAA competition. He’s playing against grown men, a decent number of whom have NBA experience.

    In Gasol’s 20 year old season he was in line with Zinger ‘s 19 year old season across many categories, though he was better at getting to the line by 2 FT/40 and worse at hitting his FTs (59% vs. 77%), and had half a steal more per game.

  128. > The Jerian Grant pick-up is terrific. I only hope that Delon Wright, drafted right after him, doesn’t end up being the star of the two.

    > I liked Winslow (though after Zinger and WCS) but he really must have been bricking in those workouts. I saw some stat where he shot like 19% from mid-range.

    > The priority this summer should be to sign promising young players. If none are available when the free agent dust clears, then you look at a player like West. I’d much rather spend the money on Monroe, Danny Green, Harris than West. Derek Fisher’s strength is supposed to be his leadership ability. Bring in a couple of vet min players if we need more of that.

  129. Wow, those videos were excellent. I pretty much agree with them precisely, only they went much further in depth than me. Well done.

    If I could concisely explain my biggest problem with the Zinger, it is this: “He shies away from contact, on offense and on defense. That affects his offense but it really affects his defense.”

  130. Gallo and Porzingi’s aren’t great comparisons. Gallinari didn’t come into the league as a great shooter. He had a short stretch of brilliant shooting after coming back from back surgery. That’s the only reason people consider him more of a shooter.

    Zinger seems unique. I don’t think there’s a great comp for him out there.

  131. Yeah, Brian, when people put a shoulder into the Zinger he just disappears. But he does use his long arms well to disrupt shots. Looks like he has pretty good timing.

  132. Phil Jackson hasn’t made any contradictions. If you look at all his moves they seem evenly distributed between the long term and short term. Last year we traded Chandler for Dalembert and Calderon, those aren’t long term moves. However, we also picked up a number of second round picks and Shane Larkin, those are longer term moves.

    I don’t see why Phil can’t make moves for the future and for the present. We have plenty of cap room and can probably compete for a playoff spot in the East (I mean it’s the East for Chrissakes). Then the cap jumps and we can sign another max player next year.

    I like David West as a person and maybe we could get him back into form. He’s also a good locker presence. However, when I want him on the cheap. I’d like to see us pickup 2 other impact FA. 1 max level and one near max if at all possible.

  133. I think he can be a very good secondary scoring option who is adequate on defense… given the riskiness of the pick, the reason he was the fourth pick in the draft is because people see superstar upside. I, personally, find it hard to see how he’s going to grow into that.

    I would bet against him becoming a star, if I had to bet… but I’d probably say the same thing about anyone on the board. And I think that’s the thing: while Zinger may be relatively more risky, every pick is risky. Take a look at picks 2-6 every year from 2010-13. Of those 20 picks, 6 have been above average NBA players by WS/48. Only one has been above 1.5 WS/48 (Jonas Valanciunas), one other above 1.25 (Lillard), and Flavors right there at 1.24. The mean and median result are both 0.8 WS/48. So, chances are you’ll get a decent player but not a particularly good one.

    Point being that a useful piece is more what you should expect picking between 2 and 6. There’s a wide range of useful pieces, though, and a 7’0″ who can shoot the three, finish at the rim, and moves pretty well on defense could be a very valuable useful piece even if he’s not a “star.”

    Some useful pieces and secondary scorers can be, say, Pau Gasol who are 20+ PER guys on championship teams. There are some notable differences in their games, but based on the #s I listed in #140 it seems like Zinger may be even with or ahead of where Pau was at the same age.

  134. Gallo and Porzingi’s aren’t great comparisons. Gallinari didn’t come into the league as a great shooter. He had a short stretch of brilliant shooting after coming back from back surgery. That’s the only reason people consider him more of a shooter.

    Gallo shot 44% from three his rookie season. Then hurt his back. Then D’Antoni said before the next season that “He’s the best shooter I’ve ever seen.” I don’t think they would have drafted Gallo so high if they didn’t think he was a good shooter, especially since he was mostly a perimeter player early on (the current inside out game he has is awesome).

  135. In Gasol’s 20 year old season he was in line with Zinger ‘s 19 year old season across many categories, though he was better at getting to the line by 2 FT/40 and worse at hitting his FTs (59% vs. 77%), and had half a steal more per game.

    Zinger’s stats look even better when you factor in that Pau’s were from 15 years ago. The quality of the European leagues have significantly increased as the popularity of the sport overseas has grown.

  136. Phil Jackson hasn’t made any contradictions. If you look at all his moves they seem evenly distributed between the long term and short term.

    I seem to remember a few months back that Phil said that FA would be how we remake the team for 2015-16 and that this draft’s players would be unlikely to help in the very short term because 19-20 year old kids are not ready to make an impact. That was months ago.

  137. @140 – what separated pau and zinger was that pau was always a force scoring inside.. his 2p fg% was consistently well over 60% for his euro career.. he also had an edge(small but noticeable) in rebounding and the def stats throughout his career over zinger’s…

    what does that mean? he played more like a traditional big man.. and zinger played more on the perimeter.. that might sound sexy but it’s not a good thing for a young big man prospect to have… it’s literally the difference between pau and bargs… another euro big who had superior stats to zinger…

    none of this dooms porzingis but in order for him to avoid that fate.. he absolutely needs to be able to play closer to the paint on both ends and that requires a fairly drastic intervention to how he plays…

  138. none of this dooms porzingis but in order for him to avoid that fate.. he absolutely needs to be able to play closer to the paint on both ends and that requires a fairly drastic intervention to how he plays…

    That is really it in a nutshell. I like Zinger, but I like him mostly for his upside. That was what I liked so much about the top three is that while all three will clearly grow and adjust, they were mostly ready to go now. Zinger needs to change things to be a great player. I think he can do that, but he has to do it. Zinger “as is” is not good enough.

  139. Where did this thing come from that Porzingis can’t defend? Fran Fraschilla has said he has Kirilenko-like tools on the defensive end and that he just has to get stronger. Of course he needs to get stronger so gets bullied sometimes.

    That’s my impression as well. AK-47 is probably close to best case (absolute best case may be higher b/c of length), but he moves really well for a man his size. He is able to pick up wings and Gs off the p-n-r and keep them in-front of him. They aren’t NBA level athletes, but pros.

    “He shies away from contact, on offense and on defense. That affects his offense but it really affects his defense.”

    From what I’ve seen he gets pushed around a whole lot, but I’ve seen a lot of clips (highlights and lowlights) where he’s mixing it up physically. I’ve seen some times where he had issues with polish/fundementals and just got himself in terrible position. And I’ve seen some times where he just gets physically man-handled by stronger men.

    I pretty much agree with them precisely

    Your comments aren’t coming across to me like you agree with those videos. You are coming across really negatively… you keep saying things like he’s “soft as butter.” The message I got from the vidoes is more “raw but promising.” They show him mixing it up physically quite a bit.

    The two things I can think of are that you’re expecting a traditional 5 or you’re under-appreciating how tough it is for a teenager to play in the ACB. I’d remind you that KG was considered soft at one point because people expected a 7-footer to play a certain way. Take a look back at what guys successful NBA bigs from the ACB were doing at 19. I don’t know how much more you can expect from a 19 year old. He’s not LeBron or Durant, but he’s a pretty good looking prospect.

  140. what separated pau and zinger was that pau was always a force scoring inside.. his 2p fg% was consistently well over 60% for his euro career.

    That is false. He shot 58% from 2 at 19 and 59% at 20… that was his entire ACB career. He played only 25 minutes all season at 18.

    he also had an edge(small but noticeable) in rebounding and the def stats throughout his career over zinger’s…

    That is also false. I listed their stats above. Zinger has the edge in rebounding, blocks, and steals.

    Please stop lying about stats that are easily looked up.

    he played more like a traditional big man.. and zinger played more on the perimeter.. that might sound sexy but it’s not a good thing for a young big man prospect to have… it’s literally the difference between pau and bargs… another euro big who had superior stats to zinger…

    It is true that Zinger is more of a perimeter player. Your conclusion that it’s a bad thing is extremely questionable, though. He has a different game than Pau. The point is not to say that he is the same. The point is to say that he’s at a similar point in his development. That it’s not easy for a teenager to play well in the ACB.

    none of this dooms porzingis but in order for him to avoid that fate.. he absolutely needs to be able to play closer to the paint on both ends and that requires a fairly drastic intervention to how he plays…

    I think that’s false. The trade-off is not Pau or Bargnani. That’s a false trade-off that you made up. Zinger is not either of those players.

  141. The one thing I didn’t want was drama. Now there’s a mess – a huge one. Pissing Melo off is one thing, but Stephen A. Smith basically used his mouth to lampoon any chances the Knicks had to draw free agents.

    Yeah, yeah. Go ahead and tell me that he’s “just reporting”. That doesn’t fly with me. He’s a selfish, loud-mouth jerk and like all beat reporters, he’s decided to take the parasite approach to his job. He profits by creating a stir, but getting people pissed off. It makes good headlines and we, the fans, suffer.

  142. My issue with the pick is that by the time he’s really going to be out-performing his contract (if he ever does) it’ll be time for him to get paid. With someone like WCS you’d at least have a shot at getting your money’s worth from day one and I think Mudiay will probably earn his keep in year two. KP is probably two years out from even breaking even on his salary. Yes, he has a slim shot at being the kind of transcendent guy that you just can’t find in free agency but if he’s a notch below that (say at the Aldridge/Monroe-ish level) then you probably didn’t get as much value out of the pick as you could have- you’re only getting a year or two of him outperforming his contract before you’re paying him market value. Add to that his floor is as low as any lottery pick and he just feels like a reach to me at 4.

  143. If Melo really dislikes the pick, I’m wondering if there’s a way he’d ask for a trade to the Lakers. I’d do Melo and Jerian Grant for D Russell all day everyday. I think the Lakers would take that deal. I’d honestly be cool with Melo for their 2016 first and maybe Julius Randle or Jordan Clarkson.

  144. you’re under-appreciating how tough it is for a teenager to play in the ACB

    Speaking for myself, since I agree with Brian, I probably am under-appreciating that. I think of it like Canadian football or Japanese baseball. I basically don’t know what to make of it. I take a different message away from the videos about his promise on defense than you seem to. Unless he beefs up a lot, I think he’ll get abused if he tries to guard 4 or 5. And regardless I’m worried that he’ll have a hard time staying with many 3s. I don’t think that dooms him but my guess is that he’ll probably be weak on that end of the floor. Though he moves well for his size he doesn’t remind me at all of Kirilenko. I’d feel very different about him if he did.

  145. Pau was a much better player at 20 than Porzingis was at 19. He was a star on the best team in Spain, the finals MVP, and a much more efficient scorer. However, Pau was also a much better player at 20 then he was at 19.

  146. It seems to me that people are more ready to give Mudiay the benefit of the doubt for playing against “grown-ass men” than for Porzingis. The level of competition in ACB vs. China is hardly comparable. I’m not even sure that China is comparable to the level of the NCAA. Either way I don’t see what playing against “grown-ass men” is supposed to denote. I’m a “grown-ass man” and so are most of the people on this board (I assume) and we suck at basketball compared to all these guys. It wouldn’t be impressive for a prospect to play against us. Porzingis’s game is impressive because he was playing against competition that is generally considered better than the NCAA and just about any league not named the NBA.

    Let’s consider Porzingis’s prospects in the NCAA, a league that featured Frank Kaminsky as one of its best players. Porzingis is 3 years younger than Kaminsky and put up comparable numbers in a better league. Porzingis is miles ahead of where Kaminsky was three years ago.

  147. I don’t think people understand just how tall Zinger is. Take a look at this photo (1) How in the world is Dray Green gonna be able to disrupt his jump hook? And he’s got a really nice fluid motion on that jump hook. (2) How many guys that size are skilled enough to both Pop and Dive on the PnR? (3) Who’s gonna block his spot-up shots?

    The kid also is very clear about what he needs to do: put on weight and become stronger. He’ll mostly be playing against other stretch 4s (the direction of the league) so he doesn’t have to add a ton of weight. So long as he is able to add weight/strength while maintaining his mobility he’s got a very bright future.

  148. I don’t put much stock in the Chinese League, as I think the area that they are most lacking is the area where Mudiay excels. They have a dearth of speedy, althetic guys. That’s why so many speedy guards go play there, like TDDWTDD. So I don’t use much of his performance there as a judge of Mudiay much one way or the other. Mudiay simply already has the basic skills of an NBA point guard, to go with his size. Those alone will make him a decent player, hence him being a safer pick than Zinger. Zinger has more upside, though. Although, like Zinger, if Mudiay fixes his achilles heel, he could be a star, just like Zinger.

  149. The kid also is very clear about what he needs to do: put on weight and become stronger. He’ll mostly be playing against other stretch 4s (the direction of the league) so he doesn’t have to add a ton of weight. So long as he is able to add weight/strength while maintaining his mobility he’s got a very bright future.

    Agreed. But he has to do that. He can’t afford not to do that. If he doesn’t do that, then he will not excel in the league. And since there is some uncertainty as to whether he can do it, he carries some real risk with him.

  150. @ Cronin, I wasn’t trying to reply just to you. I just took awhile posting that one. I certainly have seen some people make comments like the ones I addressed in that post. Didn’t even know you’d bring Mudiay up.

    It’s actually kinda weird. Draft Express has numbers from both regular season and playoffs while BBR separates the numbers from playoffs and regular season. That’s why we’re getting different conclusions on Gasol’s numbers. Oddly enough, Gasol played much better in the playoffs at 19 than he did in the regular season. Make of it what y’all will.

  151. Don’t get me wrong either. I’m very skeptical of Zinger. He had one good season shooting the ball and has otherwise been mediocre from 3. Young players generally improve, but maybe that was his Landry Fields season. However, WCS struggles on offense, Winslow has plenty of questions (Kawhi has freakish length while Winslow is on the short end), Hezonja attacks the rim less than Porzingis, and I like Mudiay but point guards are notoriously slow developers in the NBA along with what I said earlier about the CBA.

  152. Yes, once we got past the top three, they all had question marks, so I think Zinger is as good a pick as any of them, and perhaps even better, in the sense that it shows a change in approach, that they’re willing to wait for a guy like Zinger to develop.

  153. @155 – if you don’t believe me just take a look:

    You are referring to a 6 game sample (when he was 20, not 19) where his FG% was above 60%, and using that to say he was consistently above 60%. Zinger also shot 60% from 2 and 45% from 3 in 16 EuroCup games this season, by the way…

    Pau also had a big playoffs at 20, but his regular season rebounding stats per 40 were right in line with Zinger’s 19 year old season.

    While Zinger doesn’t have Pau’s interior skills, he does appear to be a better shooter and to possess better quickness. It’s just a different skillset. Not necessarily better or worse.

    Pau was a much better player at 20 than Porzingis was at 19. He was a star on the best team in Spain, the finals MVP, and a much more efficient scorer. However, Pau was also a much better player at 20 then he was at 19.

    Pau took a big step forward at 20 and especially in the ACB playoffs and the Euroleague. Even his 20 year old regular season wasn’t much better than Zinger’s when you look at per 40 minute stats. My point is not that Zinger will follow the same development as Pau or anything. My point is just to temper expectations about what a lanky teenager can do in the ACB.

  154. My issue with the pick is that by the time he’s really going to be out-performing his contract (if he ever does) it’ll be time for him to get paid. With someone like WCS you’d at least have a shot at getting your money’s worth from day one and I think Mudiay will probably earn his keep in year two.

    I am of the firm belief that the 2015-2016 Knicks are not going to be a good basketball team, and that the 2016-2017 Knicks are probably also not going to be a very good basketball team. This team sucks at pretty much every position, which is why NYK won a historically low 17 games last year. It doesn’t really matter all that much whether we get good production from our 2015 draft pick in the 2015-2016 season. The Knicks need to make a 30 game improvement to be even a middling contender in a weak conference. They are miles away from contending. You can double this team’s win total from last season and that still leaves you at 34-48. Forget about this year, and forget about next year. The second best player on the current roster after Carmelo Anthony is… who exactly? Langston Galloway? Jose Calderon? We’re starting from scratch here, peeps, and there’s no 2016 draft pick because of the previous regime’s incompetent boobery.

    Carmelo Anthony is heading into his age 31 season. When Phil Jackson gave him the big mega-max contract, he was still thinking in the “win-now” mentality. I think yesterday was a sliver of hope, because it showed that Jax is perhaps abandoning that mentality. This could be a golden opportunity to move a disgruntled Melo and pick up some assets in the process. All of a sudden the NTC might not be such of a problem. How about Melo for Nene, Otto Porter and Washington’s 2016 first rounder? Works in the trade machine.

  155. Kevin Pelton from ESPN has some kind of statistical translator of ACB to NCAA stats and he basically said that by his translator, Porzingis would have had identical stats to Okafor (roughly 17 points, 8 rebounds, 2 blocks per 30 min). He also has said multiple times that Porzingis can play rotation minutes in the NBA right now.

    This is a good article to read from the stats perspective for those who have Insider. Basically the only players who had roughly equivalent or better WARP (based on ACB stats) to KP were Rubio, Mirotic, Bargnani, Nurkic, and Capela. That’s not bad company other than Bargs of course.

    http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/13134095/nba-draft-kristaps-porzingis-battles-memories-darko-milicic-other-european-stereotypes

  156. I just watched SAS’ ridiculous response and read about Melo’s ‘displeasure’ with the pick of Porzingis. They can be upset all they want. In this draft- every pick is a project. There are no LeBrons no CP3s no Shaqs, Dreams or Ewings and certainly no Jordans. So I don’t see what the big deal is. I mean, what did those guys think were available in the draft?? Melo bitchin about the pick really concerns me though. In yet another shot to be leader of the team, he decided to hate the pick. I hope it doesn’t happen, but I see Melo not respecting Zinger at all and maybe even freezing him out and stunting his growth. If I were in Melo’s shoes, I’d be happy with the draft haul. The team is now more talented than it was last season. Just because he was buddy-buddy with Winslow doesn’t mean Porzingis isn’t a good pick. They all have some developing to do before they become all stars. Neither of the lottery picks are gonna be all stars as rookies. Okafor has the best shot because there are no other offensive weapons in Philly. So..again..what is SAS and Melo fuming about? If I’m Phil, I’d be furious at Melo right now- if the reports are true. I would tell him he’s not gonna screw the team up and he has to get on board or leave. Phil’s not trying to build a win now team through the draft. He’s drafting for the future. Free Agency hasn’t even started and SAS and Melo are yelling about nothing. Now..if Phil does a horrible job with the cap space- then everybody should be yelling. But right now SAS and Melo needs to accept the picks and STFU and let Phil work. Period. I thing Phil did a helluva job with what he had at the draft and I look forward to what he does with the cap space. He at least deserves that much respect. Especially from Melo. If Melo really wanted to win, he shouldn’t have taken Dolan’s money. But now more than ever, he should just be a good soldier until the team fails. He’s our best player, our only all star and he’s setting a horrible example

  157. If Melo really dislikes the pick, I’m wondering if there’s a way he’d ask for a trade to the Lakers. I’d do Melo and Jerian Grant for D Russell all day everyday. I think the Lakers would take that deal. I’d honestly be cool with Melo for their 2016 first and maybe Julius Randle or Jordan Clarkson.

    It’s impossible to make those trades work salary-wise unless the Lakers are willing to send Kobe to NYK.

  158. Yes, once we got past the top three, they all had question marks, so I think Zinger is as good a pick as any of them, and perhaps even better, in the sense that it shows a change in approach, that they’re willing to wait for a guy like Zinger to develop.

    Other than Towns, they all have huge question marks. Chris Paul never had anything close to all of the question marks of D’Angelo Russell. And there are all sorts of questions about Okafor. I’m kind of happy we picked 4th because I had Towns/WCS/Zinger in my top 3 in that order. Again I just hope Phil did due diligence on Zinger’s weight. For example, his father was a basketball player – there must be some photos of him in his mid-20s.

  159. I am of the firm belief that the 2015-2016 Knicks are not going to be a good basketball team, and that the 2016-2017 Knicks are probably also not going to be a very good basketball team.

    I am of the firm belief that it’s way too early to think like this. We have somewhere between 27-28MM to spend in free agency, Melo is presumably healthy, and we are losing 2 of the worst players in the NBA out of our regular rotation (Bargnani, Tim Hardaway Jr). Depending of course on who we sign in FA, I could easily see us sniffing the playoffs.

  160. Porzingis weighed 209 pounds at beginning of last season.

    But then there’s this

    At a recent workout, he weighed 233 pounds and had a 38-inch vertical leap

    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/26/sports/basketball/kristaps-porzingis-drafted-by-knicks-with-fourth-overall-pick.html

    He’s a definite boom/bust player, but if you take a look at pictures of KG, Pau, Duncan, etc. from when they were 19 to them now they have similar body types to Kristaps. If he can get up to 245/250 that would be around where Anthony Davis is at now.

  161. I don’t know much about Zinger other than watching the clips on you tube, etc.. and reading the commentary by the “experts” including all of you above. My take is that he is a poor defender, a very poor rebounder, can’t play inside, not very physical, terrible passer, doesn’t handle the ball that well for a perimeter player, has good shooting stats. Sounds like a promising pick up. Maybe he’ll turn out to be good in a few years. I should be excited especially with the comparisons to Brad Lohaus and Donyell Marshall, oh yeah this is great! Pass the Prozac and get ready for tank season 2.0, this time with no draft pick. I do like the Grant addition, he will be good. Won’t miss THJ at all.

  162. Agreed. But he has to do that. He can’t afford not to do that. If he doesn’t do that, then he will not excel in the league. And since there is some uncertainty as to whether he can do it, he carries some real risk with him.

    I think you may be overstating this a little. I think any player has to work extremely hard to excel in the NBA. I think strength will help him a lot, but you’re fixating on one weakness quite a bit when the guy has a lot of strengths. Zinger may already be an NBA level shooter, athlete, and help defender / move defender. I would argue that he might excel in the NBA even if he’s a liability in some match-ups.

    He had one good season shooting the ball and has otherwise been mediocre from 3. Young players generally improve, but maybe that was his Landry Fields season

    It was the same season, just two different levels of competition. There’s a ton of small sample noise involved. He was shooting 37% from 3 in ACB competition through 27 games, as well, and then went 3/20 in the last 7 games. http://www.acb.com/stspartidojug.php?cod_jugador=259&cod_competicion=LACB&cod_edicion=59

  163. People remember that Kobe publicly bitched out the Lakers for drafting 17 year old Andrew Bynum right?

    Or that world class teammate and master of hugs Tim Duncan didn’t talk to Parker during his entire rookie season?

    Guys have reactions, but as long as Melo shows up to camp in shape and ready to ball Phil isn’t going to concern himself with Melo’s feelings.

  164. I’m also concerned about Porzingis’ passing numbers from Europe but things are much more structured over there. I doubt he’s going to reveal himself as the next Bill Walton, but I don’t see him as a black hole as much as not a very gifted passer that will create for others.

    Jerian Grant on the other hand will help with that.

  165. I think you may be overstating this a little. I think any player has to work extremely hard to excel in the NBA. I think strength will help him a lot, but you’re fixating on one weakness quite a bit when the guy has a lot of strengths. Zinger may already be an NBA level shooter, athlete, and help defender / move defender. I would argue that he might excel in the NBA even if he’s a liability in some match-ups.

    I will admit that “excel” is a bit of a nebulous term. Because yes, I do think he can be essentially Ryan Anderson even if he doesn’t improve his major area of weakness, and I guess Ryan Anderson does “excel” in the league (it reminds me about Jalen Rose’s comments before the draft began about how so few players ever get to even play in the NBA that it is unfair to call anyone who makes it to the NBA a “bust”). So sure, I guess it is fairer to say “Better than Ryan Anderson” as the level he won’t get to if he doesn’t improve his strength. What the heck would you even call that, though? “All-Star,” I guess? Anderson’s never made an All-Star team, has he? He came close his last year in Orlando, right?

  166. I am of the firm belief that the 2015-2016 Knicks are not going to be a good basketball team, and that the 2016-2017 Knicks are probably also not going to be a very good basketball team.

    Not that things look great, but last season’s win total is only so relevant to next season’s. Knicks seemed to intentionally tank after a poor start last season. Traded Chandler before the season, traded away Iman and JR a quarter of the way into the season, Melo missed half the season. Healthy Melo, a couple of first rounders, a few FAs… I don’t know that they’ll be that good, but they also might be ok.

    Kevin Pelton from ESPN has some kind of statistical translator of ACB to NCAA stats and he basically said that by his translator, Porzingis would have had identical stats to Okafor (roughly 17 points, 8 rebounds, 2 blocks per 30 min). He also has said multiple times that Porzingis can play rotation minutes in the NBA right now.

    Thanks for the link. It is not as easy as some people seem to think to play in the ACB as a teenager.

  167. The more I think about it the more we need David West here (on a reasonable contract). There’s just no doubt that Melo needs a strong veteran presence around like in 2012 with Kidd/Sheed/Kurt Thomas. I’m a Melo fan, but he’s a child, always wanting his cake and eating it too. Pretty much everyone who has been on a team with Melo says the same things – he needs veteran leadership and that he himself is not the type of guy who can take ownership of a locker room. Get David West and control the locker room. Get a grit/grind PF that can teach Porzingis how to use his body in the paint.

    I agree that maybe Phil should sign a vet PF for Porzingis to learn from. But if the reports are true, and our best player really does need a veteran presence to babysit him- he needs to go. Look, I love Melo. Dude is no joke. But these reports are too much. Phil needs to move him..he’s becoming Marbury like. I would understand Melo’s POV better if he actually led the Knicks somewhere- but he hasn’t. He’s put up great numbers, but his effect on the team pales in comparison to STAT’s effect. He led the team back to relevance. Melo is holding the team for hostage- something I thought he would never do. Does he not understand how difficult it is to build around him? Does he not understand that at 30 and being a perennial all star that he has to lead? Does he not get that? He gets all the money, takes all the shots, but gets none of the responsibility. That is very frustrating. At this point in his career, he shouldn’t be looking for someone else to lead. And if Phil signs a vet to lead Melo, then he should follow Melo out the door. He needs to tell Melo that he needs to man up of he’s gonna ship him out. Other than Melo and Calderon, the roster is relatively young. And now we have pieces that the team can begin to build with..FINALLY..and Melo’s behavior and lack of leadership is undermining it. Send him to Chicago if he still wants to go. Or LA.

  168. Depending of course on who we sign in FA, I could easily see us sniffing the playoffs.

    Then you have a different definition of “good team” than I do. “Sniffing the playoffs” isn’t really that great an achievement, and you certainly shouldn’t pass up drafting certain rookies because you’re worried about them contributing in the 2015-2016 season. In terms of being a real contender, not just “sniffing the playoffs,” the Knicks are light years away. They’d need to triple their win total to even be a somewhat viable, middle-of-the-pack contender in the East.

    In Melo’s peak season he was about a 10 win player. Last year he was a 3 win player. Let’s split the difference a bit and say he’s worth 8 wins next year– a generous assumption. That’s 5 extra wins. Then let’s say the team signs Greg Monroe, who is about a 7 win player. Cole and Bargnani were worth about a combined 3 wins last year, so assuming Monroe takes most of their minutes, that’s a net 4 wins. If you miss out on Monroe and have to settle for David West, that makes it more like 2 net wins. If you sign West instead of Monroe, maybe you can sign Danny Green, who was an 8 win player last year, but that was on a very good San Antonio team with a highly developed system. On the Knicks Green would probably be more like a 6-win player. Knick guards were incredibly bad last year, so let’s be generous and credit Green with 5 net wins. Maybe the rookies contribute a little, but Grant will be basically taking Shane Larkin’s minutes, and Shane himself was worth about 2 wins. Maybe you squeeze an extra win out of Grant if he has a really good rookie year.

    That’s about 13 net wins. That gets you to 30 wins. It’s a very crude estimate but it shows you how difficult it is going to be to add the 25 wins the Knicks need to add to get to .500.

  169. I dunno, if Phil seriously told Melo “re-sign here, I promise you I will make moves to get the team competitive as soon as possible” and then didn’t do that, I think it is fair enough to be irked if you’re Melo. Not for the sake of the team’s future, but just in terms of the guy told you one thing and then did another. Remember, Melo’s selfless sacrifice in his contract was specifically targeted for this year, to give the Knicks more room to work in free agency. Melo clearly thought at the time that it was going to be adding a star to a decent team and not adding David West to a gutted team with a raw but promising rookie.

  170. Do we really care what Melo thinks?

    Just bring in talent and he’ll be happy and if he’s not he waives his NTC and you get some stuff for him probably.

  171. I get it BC, but Phil hasn’t done anything in Free Agency yet. That’s what burns me up about these Melo reports. He can’t be acting like that in the aftermath of a really nice draft. Phil’s got 27 mil to spend still and free agency doesn’t start until next week. All the more reason for SAS and Melo to chill out right now.

  172. Does he not understand how difficult it is to build around him?

    Didnt they do this two years ago or nah?

    The Knicks havent really been able to build around him because of STAT. Yet someone above thinks STAT was worth more. umm ok

  173. That’s what burns me up about these Melo reports.

    These arent Melo reports. They are Frank Isola and Steven a Smith reports. And as was said before who cares what he thinks. He obviously liked Winslow and is probably butthurt for that fact alone. But he has no choice but to get over it.

  174. @179… Great points.

    Because yes, I do think he can be essentially Ryan Anderson even if he doesn’t improve his major area of weakness, and I guess Ryan Anderson does “excel” in the league

    I kind of feel like you’re simultaneously underselling both Anderson and Zinger.

    Anderson is a career .151 WS and 18 PER guy. (Granted, those stats probably seriously understate defensive value… but I’ll get to that below.) A .559 TS% on 22% usage rate. He’s a very good NBA scorer. He also had TRB% around 14% pre-NO. Maybe he took a step back physically, but I think it’s more likely that his role changed playing next to Davis. The average 2-6 pick in the 2010-13 drafts, on the other hand, averaged (mean and median) 0.82 WS/48. Some of the more recent guys may improve, but point is that if you draft Ryan Anderson #4… that’s actually not such a bad outcome, perhaps. It’s not only that so few guys make the NBA, it’s also that so few guys who make the NBA play well in the NBA.

    In terms of Zinger… I think you’re taking the “soft” label too far. He blocked 1.8/40 and has 1.6 stl/40 in the ACB. He can be physically dominated by stronger, more polished guys who get leverage on him… but he is not some stiff softy. Ryan Anderson has 0.5 blk/36 and 0.8 stl/36 in the NBA.

    I also think you’re ignoring Zinger’s ability to finish at / well above the rim. Anderson dunked all of 6 times this past NBA season, and 12 three years ago (barely played two years ago). His career high is 26 dunks, and he has topped 20 twice in six full-ish seasons.

    I think that Zinger is already more versatile than you’re giving him credit for. He’s really awkward, but I think a pretty good athlete for a 7-footer.

  175. STAT led the team to more wins when he was healthy and the #1 option. Yea I know Melo had the 54 win season. But he also didn’t have to lead that season. And that kinda plays to my point of how difficult it is to build around Melo. This is the only offseason where the team has a real chance of building around Melo, and he’s acting like a spoiled brat before free agency even starts. Who wants a star that’s never won acting like that? Phil has to sell the Knicks to prospective free agents just like Donnie Walsh had to. The difference is- Donnie had cap space. Phil has ‘a star’ AND cap space. But yet you don’t see game changers lining up to play with Melo.

  176. If Porzingis had played 1 year of college ball against the same guys that Towns, Okafor, Russell, etc. dominated for 6 months nobody would be saying he’s this epic 2-3 year project who is a total softie,

    He obviously has many things to work on overall, but so do all of these guys. Mudiay has zero jump shot and turns the ball over quite a bit. Towns is jack of all trades, master of none who has a troubling penchant for committing stupid fouls, Okafor is slow footed and has no range, Russell isn’t a very explosive athlete, can’t finish with his right hand and is a god awful defender.

    Every single guy has flaws and I don’t see Porzingis as having an inordinate amount compared to the other top prospects.

  177. Because of Melo’s yuuuge contract and NTC, there aren’t a lot of destinations that are plausible for him if the Knicks do try to trade him. Washington seems like the best fit, since they have a couple of big salaries they would be willing to move as well as some decent young players/assets. Chicago would be a tough one, unless the Bulls are willing to move Derrick Rose and the Knicks are willing to take him. It’s hard to see any way NYK can get Melo to the Lakers because of salary issues. Houston could possibly work– Melo for Papanikolau, Ariza and Corey Brewer works in the trade machine, and maybe the Rockets would throw in a first-rounder. The Clippers don’t really match up. Boston, with their stockpile of draft picks, would be a great fit for a trade built around Gerald Wallace, Isaiah Thomas and assets, but I don’t think Boston would be interested in Melo.

  178. But yet you don’t see game changers lining up to play with Melo.

    Did free agency already happen?

  179. Maybe it is er, I guess I gotta give Melo some credit for that 54 win season because he was amazing that year. But still..Phil has to sell playing on the Knicks just as hard as Donnie had to- and I would think that players would be lining up to play with a player of Melo’s stature. Especially when that team is in a big market and has cap space.

  180. I don’t get why the Lakers would be a problem, salary cap-wise. Aren’t they under the cap now? So can’t they just absorb Melo’s salary flat out? The Knicks don’t need to match salaries to get him to the Lakers.

    I mean. don’t get me wrong, he isn’t getting traded, but if he was traded to the Lakers, I don’t think cap issues are a problem.

  181. I mean. don’t get me wrong, he isn’t getting traded

    This is the funny part. People are wasting their brain cells with these scenarios. And as someone noted above , dude can have any opinion he wants as long as he performs. He didnt hold a press conference, someone is reporting his supposed thoughts lol probably Timmy JR or SR

  182. I dunno, if Phil seriously told Melo “re-sign here, I promise you I will make moves to get the team competitive as soon as possible” and then didn’t do that, I think it is fair enough to be irked if you’re Melo.

    I can see having some questions… but after you were upset the team didn’t take Shelby and he failed out of the league, maybe realize you’re not an NBA GM. Jax might think Zinger is more NBA ready than you do (you seem to be pretty far on the pessimistic end of the spectrum there). And that an NCAA guy might be closer to his ceiling doesn’t necessarily mean he’s going to contribute more in the short-term anyway… his ceiling might be bad NBA player. Again, the average guy picked even #2-6 in the draft is a below average NBA player by win share.

    Then you have a different definition of “good team” than I do. “Sniffing the playoffs” isn’t really that great an achievement

    Do “good” teams achieve “great” things? I think it’s a word choice issue.

    That’s about 13 net wins. That gets you to 30 wins. It’s a very crude estimate but it shows you how difficult it is going to be to add the 25 wins the Knicks need to add to get to .500.

    I don’t know that “crude estimate” is the phrase I’d use… It’s more like hocus-pocus you’re using to prove your point.

    The metrics you’re using are pretty unreliable, and you’re using them in a totally ad hoc way. The Knicks could have a very different team next season than they had for most of last season.

    you certainly shouldn’t pass up drafting certain rookies because you’re worried about them contributing in the 2015-2016 season.

    That I mostly agree with.

  183. Did free agency already happen?

    Our targets are Greg Monroe and allegedly David West. No one expects Gasol to leave Memphis or LeBron to leave Cleveland again.

  184. Am I missing something for thinking spending anything but maybe the minimum on David West would be a horrible, horrible idea? Our free agent targets should be young players who have a chance at being on the next good Knicks team. Is there any chance in hell David West at age 35 is going to be a contributor to our next good team? I would rather just keep the extra space for next offseason if nothing else than spend it on him.

  185. And as someone noted above , dude can have any opinion he wants as long as he performs

    In other words, expressing an antagonistic opinion about something this major is a little off-putting after having a mediocre season ended by knee surgery.

  186. The metrics you’re using are pretty unreliable, and you’re using them in a totally ad hoc way. The Knicks could have a very different team next season than they had for most of last season.

    Okay, sure. But the fact remains, the Knicks won 17 games last season. They need to add 24 wins to get to .500. How do you do that, even with the salary cap space they have? For them to “contend” it’s more like 35 wins. That is a LOT of wins to add in an offseason.

  187. Speaking of terrible rebounders, holy shit Jerian Grant rebounds like a midget.

    I noticed this too. It’s weird because he’s bigger than most point guards. You could argue that metrics like WP and WS undervalued him for this reason if you’re someone who thinks rebounding from the point guard position isn’t that important (i.e. someone who thinks the missing rebounds mostly go to his teammates). Or you could argue that it’s a legitimate problem. I don’t really know the answer.

  188. @206 Melo played 40 games last year so you can just start there.

    @205 he didnt express that, it was expressed by “sources”

  189. I don’t get why the Lakers would be a problem, salary cap-wise. Aren’t they under the cap now? So can’t they just absorb Melo’s salary flat out? The Knicks don’t need to match salaries to get him to the Lakers.

    Actually, Melo for Jordan Hill, Swaggy-P, Julius Randle and Ryan Kelly works in the trade machine, so I stand corrected.

  190. This idea that we should have drafted someone to win now because of Melo is ridiculous. And who exactly is that player? 5 teams after us passed on Winslow, Mudiay fell to 7th. Were either of them plus Melo going to make us into a solid playoff team?

    You take the player with the most upside. I guarantee Orlando, Denver and Detroit would have taken Zinger if we didn’t.

  191. So we can sign near 2 max contracts this offseason. Then the cap projects to jump another $20 million dollars the next year and about $19 million the year after that. That’s a lot of potential free agent signings. Our team could be drastically improved within 2 years.

  192. Guys, what’s understood doesn’t need to be spoken upon. DestiNY! The Future is Now!!

  193. Okay, sure. But the fact remains, the Knicks won 17 games last season. They need to add 24 wins to get to .500. How do you do that, even with the salary cap space they have? For them to “contend” it’s more like 35 wins. That is a LOT of wins to add in an offseason.

    Again, I don’t understand why you’re “adding” wins to last season’s total. The two teams are not necessarily going to be very similar. So, the issue is the base you’re starting from as much as the number of wins you’re adding. 17 wins was one season’s outcome. That doesn’t even mean last season’s team had exactly 17 wins worth of talent.

    Next season’s team is probably going to look quite different from last season’s. Another way to frame this is minute allocation. An NBA team has 19,680 minutes to allocate, so the goal is to allocate as many of those minutes to good players as possible. Last season the Knicks top minutes getters were Larkin, Smith, Hardaway, Galloway, Anthony, Acy, Calderon, and Thomas. On a full-season basis… that was basically their rotation. Literally not one was above average by WS/48 and only Melo was above average by PER. I don’t know what the team will look like next season, but I’m going to guess a ton different from that. So… there’s just not much relationship between what that team did and what next season’s team does.

  194. he didnt express that, it was expressed by “sources”

    SAS said that Melo told him that he was pissed. That was a bit more than your typical anonymous source on these things.

  195. you want those players?

    The only keeper would be Randle…everyone else is just there to make salaries work.

  196. This is great, now we have the Knick beat writers trying to interpret Melo’s hashtags from his tweet. You cant make this stuff up.

  197. I believe so. The thing about the SAS thing is that it is so easy to say “I hear that Melo is unhappy,” so the fact that he flat out went to “Melo told me he is unhappy” was a big deal, I believe.

  198. @216 this is what I saw. I don’t know if there was more.

    ESPN’s Stephen A. Smith said Friday that people around Anthony said he was “furious” with Jackson’s decision.

    “I [was] talking to my sources last night. All they said was, he’s furious, he’s livid. He feels completely hoodwinked and betrayed by Phil Jackson,” Smith said on SiriusXM Mad Dog Sports Radio. “He feels like he was lied to, like he was sold a bill of goods.”

  199. The bond between mentor and protege enables us to stay true to our chosen path.

    What the fuckity fuck? Melo saw THJ’s as his protege? Where in the world is that coming from?!

  200. The Knicks have six players under contract for next season: Melo, Calderon, Early, Galloway, Porzingis and Grant. They have what, like $27M to fill out the rest of the roster, and no viable starting SG, PF or C? That is a tough row to hoe.

  201. Heh, the Sixers now own the Knicks’ second round pick from 2018-2021. Beeezarre.

  202. Chris Herring with a hilarious tweet about how neither Chandler nor Shump could get the Knicks a first rounder, but THJ could. :)

  203. What the fuckity fuck? Melo saw THJ’s as his protege? Where in the world is that coming from?!

    Those tweets are hard to interpret, but I have to think they lend credence to the idea that he’s not exactly thrilled. Trade demand would be nice but in reality we’re probably just at risk of getting mopey, D’antoni Melo.

  204. KP was booed at the draft when NY selected him. Melo basically booed the pick too. So he’s being an average fan. He probably hasn’t seen him play but he’s seen other guys in the draft play that he thought were good so he wanted one of those guys instead. He could easily change his mind after he sees KP play. Fans do that too.

  205. KP was booed at the draft when NY selected him. Melo basically booed the pick too. So he’s being an average fan. He probably hasn’t seen him play but he’s seen other guys in the draft play that he thought were good so he wanted one of those guys instead. He could easily change his mind after he sees KP play. Fans do that too.

    Fans aren’t getting paid $124 million dollars. They’re spending their money. I thought the booing was distasteful and stupid but to hold Melo to the same standard as fans is setting really low expectations for him.

  206. Ha funny feeling the Knicks are gonna be pretty good next year tho. All the bs from today aside. Phil got 2 first round picks last night and not resigning Larkin looks like a stroke of genius now. I’m hoping to sign Jordan

  207. Knicks with Melo on court: -4 o-rtg compared to opponents
    Knicks with Melo off court: -13 o-rtg compared to opponents

    Melo played about 36% of Knicks’ minutes.

    Now On-Off numbers have a lot of noise, however, it does give a better estimate than throwing out random numbers. So if we make the assumption that the Knicks are -4 with Melo on the court than we don’t need 24 more wins, we only need to improve our team by 4 O-rtg/D-rtg points.

    Again, we have 27 million dollars. We can replace 2 of last years players with new, NEAR MAX PLAYERS. We have another projected $20 million next year. We can add a THIRD MAX PLAYER. Last year we played Bargs 20% of our minutes. When Bargs played we were almost 18 O-rtg points worse than our opponent. We were 9.6 O-rtg points worse with Bargs on the court vs. when he was off the court. We aren’t THAT far off.

  208. What is Monroe’s max? Isn’t it 15 and not 20? If so couldn’t we get him and a guy like Danny Green?

  209. What is Monroe’s max? Isn’t it 15 and not 20? If so couldn’t we get him and a guy like Danny Green?

    They can afford two mini-Max guys and then one room exception guy. They could also sign one mini-Max guy and then split the other mini-Max salary up for two guys ($7.5 million each, or $10 million for one, $5 million for the other).

  210. Re: Grant, its not that PG rebounding is hugely important, its just that for whatever reasons its rare for a PG who is that bad in college to become a good pro. I guess it’s sort of a proxy for a minimum of size/athleticism.

    Still, fuck Tim Hardaway. Grant can be bad and still be an upgrade. I love the trade.

  211. Let me get this straight. Melo called Tim Hardaway Jr., the GUY WHO WAS TRADED AWAY. He said he wasn’t happy with the moves the Knicks made during the draft, TO THE GUY WHO WAS TRADED AWAY. This whole thing seems like the biggest non-issue ever. NY media spinning things every which way.

    What are you suppose to say to a guy just traded away? “Yeah I’m so glad we traded you during the draft! You’re one of the worst players in the NBA. Peace THJR!”

  212. I guess it’s sort of a proxy for a minimum of size/athleticism.

    Right, which is weird in Grant’s case because he has no shortage of either (all I know about his athleticism comes from that dunk…but need I know more?). Every other aspect of Grant’s game checks out to varying extents (bad 3PT shooting this season seemed anomalous) so we’ll see. I would’ve preferred Delon Wright, but Hardaway is gone and that’s glorious.

  213. If Budz can turn THJ into a good player, they should just retire the Coach of the Year category, or just re-name it in Budz’ honor.

  214. The Knicks could get Monroe and Green. Monroe will probably get the max starting around $15 million from someone, so if the Knicks want him, they’ll have to offer that. They’d have to hope that Green would take $12 or so, if they really do have $27 million to spend after cap holds. I like DeMarre Carroll, too, but he’s more of a 3. As someone said earlier, West can probably get an MLE type deal from someone, I just hope not the Knicks.

    With regards to Stephen A Smith, you can’t spell ass without SAS.

    If Melo is being misrepresented by SAS and/or Isola, he could easily remedy that with a quick public denial. SAS’s language in particular is pretty extreme, and these reports have been out for quite a few hours, now. Perhaps he doesn’t care about what the media says.

  215. Alright. The thought process behind behind my saying that no free agents are lining up to play with Melo is this:
    The 2 best FA’s on the market are Marc Gasol and LeBron. Obviously Phil is targeting Greg Monroe and David West because he too doesn’t believe Gasol is leaving Memphis, and no one believes LeBron will leave Cleveland. Therefore he’s targeting lesser players who may fit the triangle. Now..if I’m Marc Gasol, I wouldn’t mind leaving Memphis for NY and a chance to play with someone the caliber of Melo. If I’m LeBron, I’d kill to play with a Melo for 82 games. But we don’t see that happening. Sure, you could say “well Memphis and Cleveland are better teams than NY”, and you will get no argument from me. But on the flip side of that..it’s NY with a resident superstar and all kinds of cap space!! Oh..and 2 first rounders (now), one of which was a top 5 choice. What stars don’t want to be in that situation?? See my point? I’m not saying NY’s a great situation, but they have a pretty damn good starting point. Maybe not as good as Cleveland (Kyrie-Thompson-Love-Sideshow Bob), but definitely better than Memphis..or Dallas..or LAL. And I don’t see Dolan being a deterrent in this situation because of Phil being that buffer. I think high level players in this league don’t wanna play with 2 players right now- Melo and Kobe. Maybe I’m wrong and all this West and Monroe talk is one elaborate smokescreen. But I’m just saying- why would LeBron or Gasol not wanna play with an assassin on offense like Melo? I just don’t get it.

    And again..re: the reports on Melo being unhappy with the draft haul- if the reports are anywhere near true, it’s the dumbest thing ever because free agency hasn’t started. This was a draft where there are no clear cut players who will be an immediate franchise mover in this draft. This draft was more about potential from top to bottom, and Phil got us 2 first rounders to work with. What’s to fuss about?

  216. Last I checked you are not these people. Gasol grew up in Memphis and lebron in Cleveland /Akron

  217. OK er..you win bud. I’m just trying to look at it from a basketball player’s POV. Even on the playground you wanna play with the best players..but what do I know huh? I’m done with it. Trying to figure which way things will go is a big headache.

  218. Totes I agree. But you have to Remember that they are people too. If lebron left again he would be vilified for life. Gasol has made it known that he likes small town Memphis.

    Now there are other ways to go besides them. But the others are restricted

  219. I don’t know– if I was an NBA player I’d have major reservations about coming to play for the Knicks for a multitude of reasons. The Knicks have been a laughing stock around the league for the better part of a decade and a half, and haven’t been truly relevant since Bill Clinton was president. The Knicks have won a grand total of one playoff series in 15 seasons. Last season was a dumpster fire that resulted in 17 wins, and the only decent player on the roster is a 31-year old Carmelo Anthony, who has won exactly jack shit in his 12 year professional career.

    It’s not really a glamorous destination franchise, as much as we’d like it to be.

  220. How many players have won in the nba as the main guy?

    Dirk
    Lebron
    Wade
    Kobe
    Duncan
    Curry

    That’s it right? Or am I missing someone

  221. Melo has played 12 seasons in the NBA, and his team has made a deep playoff run ONCE. How many other “superstars” of this game have a postseason resume as paltry as Melo’s?

  222. Melo has played 12 seasons in the NBA, and his team has made a deep playoff run ONCE. How many other “superstars” of this game have a postseason resume as paltry as Melo’s?

    Who is Chris Paul?

  223. Chris Paul. Kevin love. lamarcus Aldridge. Paul pierce before he got two hall of famers. Kyrie. Kevin Garnett before he got 2 hall of famers

  224. Melo has played 12 seasons in the NBA, and his team has made a deep playoff run ONCE. How many other “superstars” of this game have a postseason resume as paltry as Melo’s?

    Who is Dwight Howard?

  225. Melo has played 12 seasons in the NBA, and his team has made a deep playoff run ONCE. How many other “superstars” of this game have a postseason resume as paltry as Melo’s?

    Who is Kobe Bryant in years he didn’t have Shaq/Gasol/Odom/Bynum?

  226. Melo has played 12 seasons in the NBA, and his team has made a deep playoff run ONCE. How many other “superstars” of this game have a postseason resume as paltry as Melo’s?

    Who are Vince Carter and Tracy McGrady?

  227. Melo has been in the league 12 years, and his teams have won 3 playoff series. He has an overall .513 TS% and .106 WS48 in his playoff career. Not exactly eye-popping numbers.

    Paul has been in the league 10 years, and his teams have also won 3 playoff series, but not because of Paul’s pedestrian play. He has been brilliant in the playoffs– career .584 TS% and .200 WS48 in his playoff career.

    Several of the other players you guys listed are not in fact “superstars” but are rather players who are regarded as superstars because POINTZ. Vince Carter, Lamarcus Aldridge and Tracy McGrady are all guys who are more or less equivalent to Melo as players. McGrady had one insane great outlier year but for much of his career was vastly overrated. Kyrie Irving has been in the league four years, so that is a bit of an absurd comparison.

    But you know what, whatever. I’m tired of arguing about Melo. He is what he is– a one-dimensional scorer who is not really even all that great at scoring. He’s not a real good player to build your team around for an entire decade. He’s pretty much been a .550 TS%, .150 WS48 player over his tenure in NY, which is a’ight but not really spectacular. As far as franchise cornerstones go, he’s pretty mediocre.

  228. Somebody call the field crew at MetLife and tell em that somebody moved the goal posts

  229. Somebody call the field crew at MetLife and tell em that somebody moved the goal posts

    Geno needs all the help he can get.

  230. @107 (Ted)

    Is this true? Not that these things are very accurate, but he’s listed at 7’1? on NBADraft.net and 7’0? on DraftExpress.com.

    In Europe they measure and list a player’s height based on how tall they are in their bare feet. In the US they typically list players in sneakers. Those shorter measurements must have been from European sources. He was measured by the Knicks last night at 7′ 3″ in shoes and on stage he clearly had around 3-4 inches on Okafor and Townes.

    He’s almost a mortal lock to be a VERY GOOD offensive player.

    What leads you to that conclusion? This isn’t entirely the impression that I’ve gotten, not that I know much about the guy. It seems like there’s some potential he’ll be somewhat limited to the outside if things don’t go well developmentally. I’m optimistic, I just didn’t get the impression he was a lock offensively.

    Some here are going to disagree, but I think Bargnani was an average to barely above average offensive player when healthy and at his best (it was defense and rebounding that were major problems) . I’ve watched some game film of Prozingis. He’s massively more athletic than Bargnani and already has a similar to better outside shot now. I also saw him finish on alley oops and go to the basket off the dribble and finish with authority. The kid already has superior offensive skills to Bargnani. What he has a problem with is banging underneath. He gets pushed around. He’s going to be outside more for now, but he already has the handle and skills to finish. But back to my point, if he has even half the work ethic they are saying he does (and I believe he does), improves his shot a little further, gains some strength etc.. imo he’s going to have more ways to score and be way more efficient than Bargs. I think in 2-3 years 20 points per 36 with a TS% of 57%-58% is the MINIMUM and I don’t think that’s the top. This kid is the goods on offense.

  231. I’m loyal to a fault and have been singing the praises of Carmelo Anthony for years.

    Today the switch flipped. I’m pissed he hasn’t reached out to the rookies but did manage to tweet several times. I’m pissed he let word out that he’s upset. But I get over being pissed.

    Today I’m swayed by the fact that he’s a ball-hogging loser. The isolation game needs to die and the Knicks need to play fluid basketball and move the ball. With him around and unwilling to adapt, he becomes a liability.

    So it’s not because I’m angry at him that my opinion is changing, but because I’m buying into the notion that his game does not translate well into winning.

  232. Amazing we have some tweets by Isola and a “report” by Stephen A Smith, he of the “Janae Rice should know her role before she gets slapped” infamy and this is proof that Melo hates what Phil has done? Even if he was upset who cares if it doesn’t affect his on court performance? He wasn’t happy with the Shump pick and then him and Shump became boys so we have some evidence that Melo can get over any initial misgivings he may have.

    Additionally like I said before which all the Melo- out crew ignored, Kobe Bryant bitched about Andrew Bynum getting drafted publicly on video and the Lakers didn’t give a shit, ended up keeping him and winning back-to-back titles.

    Duncan legitimately didn’t talk to Parker his rookie season, the Spurs stuck with it, they became best buddies and won 4 titles together.

    Players often disagree with management decisions. Doesn’t make them evil or selfish or assholes. Just makes them normal human being like all of us that often disagree with decisions our bosses make.

    Also the perception of guys not wanting to play with Melo is garbage. By all reports Melo is one of the most well liked guys in the circle of superstars around the league. Just because people here want to equate a guy wanting his money to being some evil, scheming scumbag doesn’t make it true.

    Melo has flaws. He’s ball dominant, not efficient, poor decision maker, etc. but he’s not nearly as awful as people would like to make him out to be as a person or player.

  233. Melo going at people on twitter and instagram. All I would do is tweet pictures of big stacks of money to my critics if I was an athlete.

  234. mikebocchini @carmeloanthony you’re my inspiration melo and I strive to be the man that you are. Very successful, good husband, and a great father. I remember the first time I saw you play and immediately fell inlove with the way you play. Thank you for being great

    ok

  235. I’d really just like to trade Melo to a contender at this point (or a team with a 2016 pick). The Porzingis pick makes me think it’s best for both parties. I like Melo as a basketball player, I think he’s a star in this league, and I believe you can win a championship paying him the money he makes (GSW won a chip with David Lee and Andrew Bogut’s bad deals on their books, for instance). I just think that we aren’t the team for him right now as we’re in full rebuild. By the team we’ve built a contender, he’s probably not going to be the player he is now. It’s in his best interest to play for a contender right now, and it’s in our best interest to move him to a team that will give us some good pieces to add to our rebuild. If we don’t land any good free agents, then I can see Melo requesting a trade, and he’d be right to do it. This next month could mean a lot for us.

  236. I’m loyal to a fault and have been singing the praises of Carmelo Anthony for years.

    Today the switch flipped. I’m pissed he hasn’t reached out to the rookies but did manage to tweet several times. I’m pissed he let word out that he’s upset. But I get over being pissed.

    Today I’m swayed by the fact that he’s a ball-hogging loser. The isolation game needs to die and the Knicks need to play fluid basketball and move the ball. With him around and unwilling to adapt, he becomes a liability.

    So it’s not because I’m angry at him that my opinion is changing, but because I’m buying into the notion that his game does not translate well into winning.

    Slow clap.

  237. Great thread people, high quality stuff. I did love this….

    “Chris Herring with a hilarious tweet about how neither Chandler nor Shump could get the Knicks a first rounder, but THJ could. :)”

    Also, it took me a second to figure out “coached by Gandalf.” But I got it….

    THOU SHALL NOT PASS!

    After a day of sober reflection, I am all in on KP. Screw it. There has to be something about this season to enjoy and for me I think it will be watching the limited minutes he gets. At the very least he is a guy you can dream on, maybe the one thing about the Knicks next year that will keep me from being a total killjoy.

    Well, that and Galloway’s defense….

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