Knicks to Sign Kemba Walker After Thunder Buyout

Major Wojbomb!

Four-time All-Star guard Kemba Walker has agreed to a contract buyout with the Oklahoma City Thunder, and upon clearing waivers, plans to sign with the New York Knicks, sources tell ESPN.

Well, that‘s good news!

Kemba on likely something around the minimum (I mean, they might give him more, but he’s still getting paid from OKC, so likely not much more) is excellent news. This really turns the Knick offseason around in a major way!

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481 thoughts to “Knicks to Sign Kemba Walker After Thunder Buyout”

  1. LOVE it. I feel vastly better about our off-season now than yesterday, and that’s even allowing for Kemba’s age, injury history, etc. We have the depth where he doesn’t have to be a star or play a heavy minutes load. He just has to be a upgrade over Elf. And he sure as hell is.

    Huge smile on my face right now.

  2. Absolutely love this move, though I wonder what the contract looks like, since it hasn’t been reported yet. Would Kemba be open to a multiyear deal at very little money due to his buyout? Probably not, right? Which means that this is a one year deal at the remainder of our cap or at the vet min. If he shows out on a 1yr deal, what do we do with him–just let him walk (he would mess up our cap plans otherwise, no)? We wouldn’t get any Bird Rights on him, right?

    Still, I feel way better about this team than I did before:

    Walker
    RJ
    Fournier
    Randle
    Mitch

    Rose
    IQ
    Burks
    Obi
    Noel

    The main weak link I see here is the health of our PGs, both of whom are injury-prone. We’d do well to sign a stopgap PG with our room or whatever we have remaining, or hope that McBride can do a reasonable facsimile of PG in y1.

    Still, !!!

  3. It is very nice to know that the Lakers aren’t the only team to have gifts fall into their laps. This is so awesome.

  4. very exciting turn of events… nice to see kemba walker in a knick uniform especially without that contract…

  5. My preference would be for someone younger with fewer injury issues (especially given it’ll be a platoon of sorts with Rose), but if it’s just a buyout signing (i.e. doesn’t cost us Vildoza) I’m definitely not complaining.

    If he has a bounce back year the team just got a lot more fun to watch!

  6. Absolutely love this move, though I wonder what the contract looks like, since it hasn’t been reported yet. Would Kemba be open to a multiyear deal at very little money due to his buyout? Probably not, right? Which means that this is a one year deal at the remainder of our cap or at the vet min. If he shows out, what do we do with him–just let him walk (he would mess up our cap plans otherwise, no)? We wouldn’t get any Bird Rights on him, right?

    Yeah, presumably it’s a one year deal, but I’m sure they can figure something out next year, if need be.

    And yes, he loses his Bird Rights when he is bought out.

  7. we’re going to be lmited in what we can offer after this year? this is the reggie jackson situation right?

  8. This reminds me a lot of the Marcus Morris signing. A fortuitous turn of events benefits the Knicks! Doesn’t happen often! Maybe their karma is balancing out!

  9. I mean I don’t think All-Star Kemba is walking through that door, but he could be pretty good next year and he’s better than Elfrid Payton.

  10. we’re going to be lmited in what we can offer after this year? this is the reggie jackson situation right?

    Likely worse, since the Clippers have Reggie’s Early Bird rights. We’ll have to wait on the deal specifics, but it’s likely that they won’t have any Bird rights on Walker.

  11. I mean I don’t think All-Star Kemba is walking through that door, but he could be pretty good next year and he’s better than Elfrid Payton.

    He’s no longer that level, but he can still be very good when healthy.

  12. Wow! Unexpected!

    Let’s see what Kemba has left in the tank. Hopefully he’s still decent or at least better than Schroeder.

  13. Doing some quick math, there are 144 minutes available at the 1-3 for IQ.

    Let’s say 25 goes to Walker. 25 to Rose. 32 to Barrett. 32 to Fournier. 20 to Burks. That’s still 10 for IQ. That’s not nothing.

    It’s Grimes and McBride who might as well pack their G-League bags right now.

  14. This is amazing. And yes, I know Kemba ain’t what he used to be but he is still a huge upgrade from Elf and if he bounces back at all, watch out. This also means Rose does not have to play 35 minutes a night.

    I get the injury concern with D Rose but he had a catastrophic injury during the early part of his prime years and had to deal with that for several years. But since then he has been pretty healthy and he’s redesigned his game to not rely so much on his athleticism. And the good news with Walker is that Thibs will absolutely trust him with minutes, so D Rose won’t get ground down.

    If Kemba bounces back we could be a very formidable opponent come playoff time. And if its for the vet minimum, we still have that cap space to fuck with.

    This off season just gets better and better.

  15. bidiong the not so great:
    Now we know why the 19 pick read vaporized. Lol

    Yes!! Leon and co. clearly knew when this manna from heaven was coming( just when you thought that you’ve been gypped, the bearded lady comes and does a double back flip )

  16. Hes been injury prone last two seasons but imagine the offensive production having both Rose and Kemba healthy come playoff time.

  17. Now we know why the 19 pick was vaporized. Lol

    Obviously this wasn’t part of their actual plans (or else they wouldn’t have been trying to sign Nunn yesterday), but if it were, it would make vaporizing the #19 pick make even less sense, as now they would be able to develop any number of interesting projects at the #19 spot without any need of them developing any time soon. In other words, not needing your rookies to play right away gives you more options with the pick, not less.

  18. Nice mix of youth and veterans, quality guys.
    I like this team and I like that we still have a core of young folk that have upside potential.
    Thibs will do wonders with this team.

  19. again.. the overall strategy kind of sucks… but this is a massive turn from Schroder/Jackson to Kemba Walker… and if you’re riding or dying with the gang… then you need to account for the gang flopping.. like Rose in particular.. and Walker mitigates that nicely…

    and there is some upside on a bounceback… i’m not sure what the injury risks are… but there must have been something that caused the celtics to eject so quickly and okc to give up with a buyout…. so i don’t think we’re getting old kemba back.. but who really knows…

    but given all this… we paid a whole lot of money for Rose.. Burks and Noel as bench pieces… which didn’t sound good at the time and doesn’t sound all that good in hindsight…. but if that’s what we’re going with this is the best news out of a bad situation…

  20. Since he’s being bought out from the two years he had remaining on his deal, can’t the Knicks basically offer him a two year contract at the minimum? He’s getting paid anyway from OKC. Or is that not allowed with buyouts?

  21. Yeah, Brian, I would say the rookies are now the ones who will spend most of the year either on the bench or in Westchester. IQ will be the backup shooting guard, and probably the third string point guard. And having Quickley, McBride and a guy in Burks who can kind of run this offense in a pinch means we are relatively well built to deal with inevitable injuries for Kemba and/or Rose. And it’s still possible Vildoza makes the team, though I doubt it at this point.

  22. To create the same amount of space they could’ve dumped Knox or waived Vildoza, so no, incinerating the pick does not look any better and as BC said actually looks worse.

  23. This morning I woke up grouchy, on the wrong side of the bed. But then I got a call from the board of health telling me that my quarantine ends today (I traveled down to Florida with my wife to find a home to retire to and contracted “breakthrough” COVID-19). Then I get this news!

    I was okay with the offseason knowing there wasn’t someone that could really move the needle available through the free agent market or the draft. I thought we were in much better shape to snipe a disgruntled player off of another team. This move is the kind of move I was hoping for.

    Oh, and for the first time in a week I caught the feintest smell of coffee (I lost my sense of smell). What a great day this is shaping up to be!

    Kemba is a hometown kid, one I’ve liked for a long time. I was angry that we didn’t sign when we could. Getting him now, with an otherwise very deep team, warms my heart.

  24. but given all this… we paid a whole lot of money for Rose.. Burks and Noel as bench pieces… which didn’t sound good at the time and doesn’t sound all that good in hindsight…. but if that’s what we’re going with this is the best news out of a bad situation…

    Yeah, exactly, I still don’t like the approach, but being gifted Kemba helps make the approach work a whole lot better. I’m very pumped (option #1. ;)).

  25. Since he’s being bought out from the two years he had remaining on his deal, can’t the Knicks basically offer him a two year contract at the minimum? He’s getting paid anyway from OKC. Or is that not allowed with buyouts?

    It’s allowed. It just doesn’t make much sense for the guy himself to sign a multiple year minimum deal.

  26. Healthy Kemba is pretty much the perfect PG for this team from an offensive perspective. Obviously there’s huge question marks about whether he can stay healthy but this is a really nice dice roll at a low cost. I think it’s safe to say there was a time not that long ago when the Knicks would have given up a first round pick to acquire Kemba on his max salary, so we’ve come a long way from that perspective.

    I do wonder about the defense a little. Going from Payton+Bullock to Kemba+Fournier is a massive downgrade defensively in the backcourt. We still have Mitch+Noel to clean up issues which will help a lot but it’s going to take a big effort from Thibs to make this a top-5 defense; they have no real business being that from a personnel perspective.

  27. As the ELFRID PAYTON replacement?! I understand Kemba’s had injury issues but he’s still a very useful offensive player. This is a huge get.

  28. Roster right now:

    PG: Kemba/Rose/McBride/Vildoza
    SG: Fournier/IQ/Grimes
    SF: Barrett/Burks/Knox
    PF: Randle/Obi/Taj
    C: Noel/Mitch/Sims

    Unless I forgot someone, that’s 16. Sims likely gets a two way contract. So Vildoza’s ability to make the team will depend in part on whether the FO sees a player they like better, maybe on the wing?

  29. Sounds like it will be $8mm per year for Kemba. Hopefully that’s over multiple years.

    And I think there will be plenty of minutes for IQ once you factor in injuries and load management for Rose (and Kemba, for that matter).

  30. Of all the PG options out there, other than getting Lowry, this would have been my preferred–if I had known it was an option!

    And sadly for strat, this probably means no to resigning Frank on the cheap.

    I now like the make-up of this team. If we can turn Knox into a draft asset, the only real blemish on the off-season will be the 19th pick future punt.

  31. Brian Cronin:
    It is very nice to know that the Lakers aren’t the only team to have gifts fall into their laps. This is so awesome.

    Should I do an end zone dance like the detractors were doing when we signed all those 3-year deals?

    Nah. I’ll suffice it to say that the prime directive of this FO…making NYK an attractive destination for FAs…has been accomplished in less than a year, without taking future-killing starfucking short cuts. Kemba could go anywhere he wants. He chose the Knicks. Not the Nets. Not the Lakers. The NEW. YORK. KNICKS.

    Edit: at $8M, that’s less proof since the other teams couldn’t offer that much. But still…very exciting news!!

  32. Management sucks!

    Thibs sucks!

    We incinerated everything!

    They are almost as bad as Phil!

    Walker, RJ, Fournier, Randle, Mitch/Nerlens

    Rose, Quickley, Burks, Obi, Mitch/Nerlens

    Still have excess picks.

    #nevermind

  33. Nah. I’ll suffice it to say that the prime directive of this FO…making NYK an attractive destination for FAs…has been accomplished in less than a year, without taking future-killing starfucking short cuts. Kemba could go anywhere he wants. He chose the Knicks. Not the Nets. Not the Lakers. The NEW. YORK. KNICKS.

    Thank you!

  34. For those of you that require bad spin and negative news to be happy, I have just been informed that Thibs plans on playing Walker 40 minutes a night until he breaks down. Then he will switch to Rose for 40 minutes a night until he breaks down. Then we will sign Payton for the playoffs. rotflmao Feel better now?

  35. Nah. I’ll suffice it to say that the prime directive of this FO…making NYK an attractive destination for FAs…has been accomplished in less than a year, without taking future-killing starfucking short cuts.

    i’m getting ‘mission accomplished’ on an aircraft carrier vibes…

  36. kemba was terrible in the playoffs, is a poor defender, and has all the injury risk. but there is a reasonable chance that he is still an awesome offensive player. in the last 10 games of the regular season he averaged 26/5/5 per 36 getting to the line 6.7 per game with a 63% TS. his knee was hurt again in the playoffs and he looked really bad. but he still seems to have real upside for what seems like very little risk. and also kemba is awesome and easy to love.

  37. They are almost as bad as Phil!

    You using a comparison to Phil as an insult is delightful to see.

  38. This move makes me sooo happy.

    DJ, Kemba’s injuries and decline are definitely a concern but also OKC seems hellbent on getting rid of any competent veteran basketball player that might mess up their tank. I wouldn’t read TOO much into them buying him out.

  39. If Kemba bounces back from his recent injuries and has a renaissance season with us it will be a huge emotional lift for the team and a really good feel good story for him and the league. Which will generate more goodwill and positive press for The Knicks. If he struggles, it won’t be that unexpected and we didn’t give up anything to get him, so it won’t be some controversy or LOLKnicks move.

    There is really no downside to this move at all. And the potential upside is HUGE.

  40. DJ, Kemba’s injuries and decline are definitely a concern but also OKC seems hellbent on getting rid of any competent veteran basketball player that might mess up their tank. I wouldn’t read TOO much into them buying him out.

    They actually don’t normally buyout guys, so this clearly is a sign that they felt Kemba was untradeable.

    Still worth it for the Knicks, of course, but he was also clearly untradeable at his previous salary.

  41. Twitter is suggesting this is a multi-year deal with $8MM AAV. This is nuts. Even if he only plays 45 games and rests himself for playoffs, that is really really good.

    I have to say – I am really surprised that Presti didn’t try and rehab Kemba’s value. But maybe Kemba is just too respected around the league to be part of the tank show that is happening there. Have to think Kemba gave up a lot of $ to get out of there.

  42. Sounds like they’ll be using the rest of their cap on Kemba (so about $8 million). It’s gotta be a one-year deal, so that limits them to a small raise next year, but perhaps that will be enough for him and then they can give him a 75% raise for year three. And if they need to dump guys to clear out more room for him, they can do that, as well, if he turns out to be worth more.

  43. Kemba’s knee has been fucked up for the last two years. The silver lining is they have been weird years, so maybe this offseason will give him time to recover somewhat. Still, it’s a risk worth taking, there’s no real downside.

  44. How is golden boy Brad feeling now? At the time of the Kemba trade, the thinking was to gain the flexibility to sign Fournier.

    Both now end up with a division rival. Danny A must be shaking his head…

  45. Brian, why does it have to be a one year deal? Couldn’t they do a 2 or 3 year deal starting at $8 million?

  46. Brian Cronin:
    Sounds like they’ll be using the rest of their cap on Kemba (so about $8 million). It’s gotta be a one-year deal, so that limits them to a small raise next year, but perhaps that will be enough for him and then they can give him a 75% raise for year three. And if they need to dump guys to clear out more room for him, they can do that, as well, if he turns out to be worth more.

    Why does it have to be a 1 year deal?

  47. Boston leaned on Kemba for around 33 minutes a game. If Thibs earmarks 27-29 minutes for Kemba – that would be the optimal situation.

  48. Twitter is suggesting this is a multi-year deal with $8MM AAV. This is nuts. Even if he only plays 45 games and rests himself for playoffs, that is really really good.

    Why would he take two years, though? One year make so much more sense, as he could try to rehabilitate his value after a good season.

  49. ***Should I do an end zone dance like the detractors were doing when we signed all those 3-year deals?… Edit: at $8M, that’s less proof since the other teams couldn’t offer that much.***

    Glad you didn’t go ahead with that end zone dance, you would have blown your knee out doing the worm.

  50. Oh yeah, I mean at his last salary he probably was untradeable. Just saying that them buying him out doesn’t necessarily mean they did it because of his injuries. More because of his salary and they don’t want potentially good vets on the team.

  51. Why does it have to be a 1 year deal?

    It doesn’t have to be, I’m saying why would he take a two-year deal at that money when he could rehabilitate his value and get paid a lot next season?

  52. Have to think Rose/Kemba basically split the PG minutes.
    I would love to see Kemba with Obi on the 2nd unit — Kemba/Quickley/Burks/Obi/Noel line change would be pretty interesting…

  53. No negativity in this thread. I pushed for acquiring Kemba from Boston when he had a salary, so I absolutely love this move. This is like manna from heaven.

  54. Oh yeah, I mean at his last salary he probably was untradeable. Just saying that them buying him out doesn’t necessarily mean they did it because of his injuries. More because of his salary and they don’t want potentially good vets on the team.

    They literally just had Horford sit at home, while keeping his salary open for trades. If they thought Kemba could be rehabilitated, I’m sure they would have. Again, it doesn’t mean that this isn’t still a great move for the Knicks, since their risk is so low, but the odds are that the Thunder buying him out is a statement about his health. Still a very good move for the Knicks, though, since they can afford for him to totally flame out and it wouldn’t hurt them too much.

  55. Deeefense:
    Management sucks!

    Thibs sucks!

    We incinerated everything!

    They are almost as bad as Phil!

    Walker, RJ, Fournier, Randle, Mitch/Nerlens

    Rose, Quickley, Burks, Obi, Mitch/Nerlens

    Still have excess picks.

    #nevermind

    You forgot that Jonathan Macri is delusional.

  56. I mean ideally you’d probably try to split the minutes between Rose & Kemba equally, maybe even let Vildoza or IQ take a few

  57. Ok, given Kemba’s recent performance and his injury issues / age etc I was very against signing him at his current contract or trading assets for him… but getting him for literally free on a small contract is a huge, fantastic move. This saves the off-season in my opinion. If he can somewhat go back to his prime this will be extremely fun to watch, and if he doesn’t there’s no risk involved. I’m excited again.

  58. I think marechal is right. he’s getting paid from OKC for two years, so this is more like a blake griffin situation. Anything we pay him depletes from what OKC pays him, so he can get the minimum from us and still be paid the max.

    That is, unless he forfeited the final year of his contract to be free. That would be shocking, but it is possible.

  59. His performance has actually been just fine – even on a balky knee, averaged 19.3/4.9/4 in 32 min/game last year on at least league average TS. Has always been a low turnover guy. He’s a defensive negative of course, but just think what an upgrade this is over what we were contemplating.

    The major issues with him were his contract and his uncertain health status. Contract no longer an obstacle, and uncertain health status remains, but we are reasonably well-hedged against that with Rose, IQ, and maybe even McBride playing some minutes.

    And he’s a good enough shooter that he can play off-ball if need be.

    Literally miniscule long-term risk with medium-high reward.

  60. This is a no-brainer and I’m extremely happy we did it, but I am very confused as to the idea that it somehow makes the Noel et al. contracts better. If you thought those contracts were good before, you should still think that. If you thought they were bad before, you should still think that.

    Getting Kemba Walker on a (presumably) 1/$8M deal doesn’t change anything about them. It’s its own transaction.

    Should I do an end zone dance like the detractors were doing when we signed all those 3-year deals?

    I’m pretty sure literally everyone said we needed to wait-and-see if there were non-guaranteed years. With Burks it was actually falsely reported that all three years were guaranteed, so you can’t blame people for reacting to the information we had.

    Regardless, even as 2 + 1s I think those deals are mediocre at best.

    However I am exponentially more excited about this team than I was yesterday as like every other good New Yorker I love Kemba Walker!

  61. Would love Winslow with the remaining money Barett is our only defensive wing and even thats questionable. Grimes might not be ready just yet

  62. A 2 year contract will give the Knicks Early Bird Rights on Kemba, so perhaps that figures into the equation.

  63. Brian Cronin: You using a comparison to Phil as an insult is delightful to see.

    lol

    I was just quoting all the “negative” folks here. ;-)

    This is the way you rebuild quickly. It’s not about method. It’s about execution. Are there injury risks? Sure. But we have both a solid starting lineup, solid bench, excess picks, and a ton of very youthful upside for the short, medium and long term. Job well done.

  64. Screw Lonzo, Devonte, Reggie, Kendrick, Dennis and all the rest of them.

    We got Kemba!

  65. A 2 year contract will give the Knicks Early Bird Rights on Kemba, so perhaps that figures into the equation.

    Oh true, I’m sure the Knicks would love for him to sign a two-year deal for that very reason. I just don’t see the benefit for him to do that. If he rebuilds his value this year, he can get paid next year on a long term deal and if the Knicks wanted him back, they could always dump guys to clear cap space to keep Kemba.

    But hey, I’d love it if he were to take a two-year deal, of course.

  66. Holy shit! This is playing with house money- assuming it’s for one of the exceptions or something. What would be really shrewd is trading Vildoza for a 2nd right now. I don’t doubt that we can get a full season of quality PG play between Kemba, Rose, and Quickley and can afford to bring McBride along at a great pace..Grimes too. We have had a solid offseason haul that isn’t disappointing considering alot of folks expected a splash. Fournier better be ready to play defense though- we are definitely going to need it if Kemba starts because I have alot more faith in Rose’s defense

  67. Love Kemba, wish it was 3-4 years ago, want to see IQ play and develop, fear it’s not going to happen.

  68. I should add one thing. I haven’t crunched the numbers, but it seems reasonable to assume they wouldn’t have been able to sign Kemba if they didn’t “incinerate” that 1st round pick (I mean push it out so they could still use in a stronger draft or trade) and trade the other down to save that cap space. At the very least, there’s something else good they wouldn’t have been able to do.

  69. I should add one thing. I haven’t crunched the numbers, but it seems reasonable to assume they wouldn’t have been able to sign Kemba if they didn’t “incinerate” that 1st round pick (I mean push it out so they could still use in a stronger draft or trade) and trade the other down to save that cap space.

    It’s almost assuredly a case of Kemba taking the $8 million from the Knicks because that’s what the Knicks have (remember, he’s being paid out by the Thunder, as well, so the specifics of the money for this year are almost meaningless). In other words, if they had $6 million, he would take that. So, in a word, no.

  70. It wouldn’t be worth incinerating the pick to get Kemba anyway. The defense of the incineration is getting highly lapdog and somewhat embarrassing at this point.

  71. Oh true, I’m sure the Knicks would love for him to sign a two-year deal for that very reason. I just don’t see the benefit for him to do that.

    he’s still getting his money either way tho right? whatever he signs for just comes out of his current contract… if he plays well here he has near unlimited upside on a bird extension in year 2… vs whatever is out on the free agent market…

  72. I should add one thing. I haven’t crunched the numbers, but it seems reasonable to assume they wouldn’t have been able to sign Kemba if they didn’t “incinerate” that 1st round pick (I mean push it out so they could still use in a stronger draft or trade) and trade the other down to save that cap space. At the very least, there’s something else good they wouldn’t have been able to do.

    so you haven’t crunched the numbers but assume this is true? please crunch the numbers for us strat… i’m very curious what you come up with….

  73. he’s still getting his money either way tho right? whatever he signs for just comes out of his current contract… if he plays well here he has near unlimited upside on a bird extension in year 2… vs whatever is out on the free agent market…

    It he has a good year this year, he can sign a long-term deal next year that would outweigh the money he’s owed for just next year. It’s a lot better for him to sign a long-term deal as soon as possible, given his age.

  74. djphan: i’m getting ‘mission accomplished’ on an aircraft carrier vibes…

    There’s obviously still a lot left to the mission. But for now, that part of the mission has been pretty much accomplished. Or do you disagree that the public perception of the NYK has turned around dramatically? That we are far more attractive of a destination than we were on March 2, 2020? Do you really have the temerity to disagree with that?

    One thing’s for sure…I’m happy that the guys in charge are not dumb enough to think that passing over Davion Mitchell at ##19, 21, 25, etc. would have been a good idea. Or passing over consensus top-3 pick LaMelo Ball at #8 would have been a good idea. Or passing over IQ at #25 for Devon Dotson last year would have been a good idea. Now THAT’S incinerating draft picks!

  75. Deeefense:
    I should add one thing. I haven’t crunched the numbers, but it seems reasonable to assume they wouldn’t have been able to sign Kemba if they didn’t “incinerate” that 1st round pick (I mean push it out so they could still use in a stronger draft or trade) and trade the other down to save that cap space. At the very least, there’s something else good they wouldn’t have been able to do.

    Yeah, dumping that 19th pick seems amazingly brilliant now, doesn’t it?

  76. It’s almost assuredly a case of Kemba taking the $8 million from the Knicks because that’s what the Knicks have (remember, he’s being paid out by the Thunder, as well, so the specifics of the money for this year are almost meaningless). In other words, if they had $6 million, he would take that. So, in a word, no.

    If you want to believe that OK, but there are teams out there that need a PG (like playing with Zion) and a cheap team like OKC probably had their limits on what they would pay him in a buyout. It’s no lock he’d give up another 2m.

  77. So now we have a tandem of Rose and Kemba splitting, say, 3,000 PG minutes for less than $20M AAV. Obviously health continues to be a deep concern with both guys, but that’s a good stopgap transition to an eventually younger max or near-max player in the next couple of years.

  78. I should add one thing. I haven’t crunched the numbers, but it seems reasonable to assume they wouldn’t have been able to sign Kemba if they didn’t “incinerate” that 1st round pick

    Jonathan Frakes Voice: It’s a total fabrication, pure fiction.

    It was already discussed upthread that the Knicks had plenty of other avenues to get that $2mil in cap space like waiving Vildoza. No need to retcon that move, it was still dumb.

  79. We likely have a first unit of Kemba-Barrett-Fournier-Randle-Mitch, with a second unit of Rose-IQ-Burks-Toppin-Noel. Thibs isn’t going to play 10 guys, so my guess is IQ gets a big minutes squeeze.

    I’ll save my gripes about the draft and our long term outlook for another time. Credit where it is due: if you’re only judging Leon solely on how good he made next year’s team given what was available, this move ends up giving him a 10/10. I doubt he could have realistically done better.

  80. I should add one thing. I haven’t crunched the numbers, but it seems reasonable to assume they wouldn’t have been able to sign Kemba if they didn’t “incinerate” that 1st round pick (I mean push it out so they could still use in a stronger draft or trade) and trade the other down to save that cap space. At the very least, there’s something else good they wouldn’t have been able to do.

    1) You’re wrong about this, they could’ve dumped Knox or stretched him if it came to that.

    2) Like BC said, Kemba was almost certainly just taking whatever amount of money we had left.

    3) A stronger draft? Buddy, we have no clue what draft we traded into.

  81. There’s obviously still a lot left to the mission. But for now, that part of the mission has been pretty much accomplished.

    exactly what part of it is? like i don’t know what you think people were tap dancing over.. that you view any sort of criticism as celebratory is kind of sad…

    and when you run out road on your argument you lash out at the person…. do you think any of those things you’re saying is affecting me? i post my boards exactly because i’m unafraid of how i look in hindsight… and what does that say about you? probably makes you look like a real clown in comparison right?

    tell us what you think on your great draft observations…

  82. Yeah, dumping that 19th pick seems amazingly brilliant now, doesn’t it?

    In fact, the justification for it (that we couldn’t possibly play that many rookies) has completely evaporated. The cap space would’ve been easy to create other ways.

  83. The only thing that would make more excited for next season is if they brought back Frank. Just knowing I could talk about him here every day for another year would be overwhelming. I may do it anyway. Every time we screw up a P&R defensive possession next year I may say “Frank would have defended that better and with all this scoring we wouldn’t have need him to score”. lmao

  84. marechal
    August 4, 2021 at 10:28 am
    Since he’s being bought out from the two years he had remaining on his deal, can’t the Knicks basically offer him a two year contract at the minimum? He’s getting paid anyway from OKC. Or is that not allowed with buyouts?

    Marechal, probably New York and OKC negotiated what NY would pay Walker. A team that wants to buy someone out wants to save money doing so. So they look for a team that will pay more than the minimum for the player. Then they can give the player less money in the buyout and he stills earns what he would have under his existing contract. I don’t think it’s an accident that the reported salary is close to what the Knicks have in remaining cap space. OKC knew that’s what the Knicks could pay and it was enough to make the buyout worth it for OKC.

    I have no idea how the logic works for year two. IIRC, most players who are bought out have one year remaining. Maybe OKC is buying him out for $8M less than he would earn for the two years and NY is signing him for one year at $8M. Or maybe NY wants him for two years. I suspect the new contract can be flexible in terms.

  85. thenoblefacehumper: In fact, the justification for it (that we couldn’t possibly play that many rookies) has completely evaporated. The cap space would’ve been easy to create other ways.

    You keep believing and asserting that it was a terrible move. lmao

    When we use that pick in a trade that lands another top tier talent, enables us to move up in a future draft, or to draft a player we like better instead of drafting a rookie role player now buried on the bench using cap space we could use more effectively this year maybe you’ll see it made sense given their plans.

  86. I have no idea how the logic works for year two. IIRC, most players who are bought out have one year remaining. Maybe OKC is buying him out for $8M less than he would earn for the two years and NY is signing him for one year at $8M. Or maybe NY wants him for two years. I suspect the new contract can be flexible in terms.

    Griffin was also bought out of a two year deal, but he was bought out midseason, so teams had no cap room. Griffin gave up $13 million out of the $75 million he was owed. Kemba is owed $83 million. I bet he gave up around $17 million, and then gets $8 million of that back right away from the Knicks. Whether he accepts a second year with the Knicks will be fascinating, though. He could clear the remaining $9 million easily in the second year of a Knick deal, but wouldn’t it make more sense to just become a free agent next year?

  87. strat.. doesn’t it tell you that you’re trying to strain justification on trading the draft pick when you were just so wrong about the cap implications of it just now? or does it not register? it’s ok to be wrong… i don’t know why people are so afraid of it….

  88. I truly wish we could transition to talking about the actual team, which is now exponentially more exciting than it seemed like it would be, but some people are insisting on drawing some bizarre connection wherein a great contract for Kemba Walker makes other, much worse contracts and transactions retroactively good. That’s not how any of this works, but whatever.

    A Walker/Rose platoon is really great if they can stay reasonably healthy. Their respective skillsets are pretty much exactly what the offense needed when Rose wasn’t playing (and even when he was, we desperately needed a higher volume 3PT shooter like Kemba).

    It’ll be really interesting to see what this means for the Randle point-forward era. The fit with Rose and Randle was always a bit shaky for this reason and now we have another point guard who has tended to play with the ball. The best case scenario is having competent point guard play for *knocks on wood* 48 minutes allows Randle to get some damn easy looks.

    Kemba can definitely provide more off-ball value than Rose, so it’s possible as both a load management measure and a matter of strategy he’s mostly off the ball when he shares the court with Randle.

  89. thenoblefacehumper: thenoblefacehumper
    August 4, 2021 at 10:59 am
    This is a no-brainer and I’m extremely happy we did it, but I am very confused as to the idea that it somehow makes the Noel et al. contracts better. If you thought those contracts were good before, you should still think that. If you thought they were bad before, you should still think that.

    Getting Kemba Walker on a (presumably) 1/$8M deal doesn’t change anything about them. It’s its own transaction.

    If the Kemba/Rose tandem excites you, then you are less inclined to feel that Rose/Burks over Lonzo, or Rose/Noel over Lonzo, or any combo of the contracts over Lonzo made no sense. So I think there are obvious reasons to consider context in evaluating the merits of those deals.

    thenoblefacehumper:
    To create the same amount of space they could’ve dumped Knox or waived Vildoza, so no, incinerating the pick does not look any better and as BC said actually looks worse.

    I don’t understand why you continue to use unnecessarily provocative metaphors. It’s just childish and stupid. Grow the fuck up.

  90. I’ll put it better:

    For following the path that he chose and giving Tom Thibodeau everything he wants, Leon Rose deserves a 10/10.

    But I remain every bit as skeptical that we will ever amount to more than a team that gets bounced in round 1, and that’s not what I want for the Knicks.

  91. Hubert, Thibs played 10 guys consistently last year. And occasionally 11.

    Yeah, a ten-man rotation is definitely in the cards, I think. IQ will be in the rotation. It just might only be for 10 minutes a game.

  92. thenoblefacehumper: 1) You’re wrong about this, they could’ve dumped Knox or stretched him if it came to that.

    2) Like BC said, Kemba was almost certainly just taking whatever amount of money we had left.

    3) A stronger draft? Buddy, we have no clue what draft we traded into.

    Keep believing that. lmao

    You can always do something to create space, but then you don’t have Knox to continue developing, trade, or use for space for someone else you like even better at the price than some role player in the draft.

    The future drafts WILL be stronger because one and done is probable over soon.

    just get over it. They had a plan and executed it close to perfection. Now they still have that pick to use for trades instead of a scrub they didn’t like taking up more space than they though he’d be worth for a bunch of years.

  93. I don’t understand why you continue to use unnecessarily provocative metaphors. It’s just childish and stupid. Grow the fuck up.

    eyeroll

  94. I love that Z-Man, the most childish old man in NY, is fighting with a 22 year old in the comments section and has the audacity to tell him to “grow the fuck up.” A 22 year old who, might I add, is one of the most intelligent, precocious, and respectful posters on this board.

    PS I don’t know if 22 is his age but it’s close.

  95. Deeefense: You keep believing and asserting that it was a terrible move. lmao

    When we use that pick in a trade that lands another top tier talent, enables us to move up in a future draft, or to draft a player we like better instead of drafting a rookie role player now buried on the bench using cap space we could use more effectively this year maybe you’ll see it made sense given their plans.

    Again, it doesn’t make it the optimal choice, but all of this is possible. It’s a probably (by any reasonable statistical analysis) a slightly devalued asset, with a reasonable (say 25%) probability of being a more valuable asset either in a current transaction or in the future. Calling it evaporaated or incinerated is just stupid. As are many, many of the recent hot takes of those who insist on doing so, and we have plenty of evidence for that.

  96. It’s funny… given all the speculation over the past 36 hrs as to which of the remaining bottomofthebarrel PGs the Knicks might sign (Schroder, Jackson, Hill) I don’t think Kemba’s name came up even once. Obviously, it was his contract that made him unworthy of even scant consideration on our part.

    Just spitballin’ here… is it possible that this FO may have been privy to info that we layfolks would not have known? As has been frequently pointed out here, someone with Leon Rose’s background may well be a bit more dialed in to the backroom machinations going on at other orgs than is the typical NBA FO. If, indeed, his connections are Rose’s one true superpower as POBO, then is it not inconceivable that he saw the Kemba buyout brewing days before anyone else and was able to position himself accordingly?

    Of course, I have no idea if that was really the backstory behind the Kemba signing or if it was just dumb fucking luck. If it wasn’t some lucky fluke, then I guess this is the upside of having a former big time agent as POBO. It would also signal a future in which the Knicks’ basketball moves are more heavily skewed toward talent already in the Association in lieu of draftees outside the range of Rose’s radar. All things considered, I’d still rather have a FO with a more wide angle depth of field but that does not seem to be Leon Rose.

    I’ve been as critical as anyone of this FO’s offseason (albeit in far fewer posts as is my wont) and would still prefer to have seen an approach that allowed for more in the way of high ceiling, future growth. So the Kemba signing does not totally redeem this offseason in my eyes… but if it is, in fact, what we should come to expect vis a vis Leon Rose as his best self, then at least it’s a damn sight more encouraging than just the Noel/Burks/Rose deals.

  97. Fair correction, Alan. I’ll rephrase: I expect IQ to be the 10th man and I expect him to play much less.

  98. Hubert:
    I’ll put it better:

    For following the path that he chose and giving Tom Thibodeau everything he wants, Leon Rose deserves a 10/10.

    But I remain every bit as skeptical that we will ever amount to more than a team that gets bounced in round 1, and that’s not what I want for the Knicks.

    Yeah, this is certainly the best signing we made this offseason but I still don’t see how we get out of the 1st round. And I don’t think the only players on rookie contracts who’ll get minutes are Barrett and Mitch.

  99. thenoblefacehumper: In fact, the justification for it (that we couldn’t possibly play that many rookies) has completely evaporated. The cap space would’ve been easy to create other ways.

    What we wouldn’t have had was roster spots or the money. I stated this a few days ago. Managing NBA rosters is complex and most fans don’t get the nuances. Not pointing fingers at anyone. What I’m saying is that Leon Rose surrounded himself with the best of the best when it comes to these things. World Wide Wes, Brock Aller, etc. all know more than all of us combined. They also have inside knowledge we don’t have an inkling about.

    We didn’t trust Phil. We didn’t trust Mills. We hated Layden. Isaih Thomas was horrific. Anyone remember Dave Checketts? Glen Grunwald? Donnie Walsh was OK but he’s a Pacer. When was the last time that had a competent GM? We have one now.

  100. Hubert:
    I love that Z-Man, the most childish old man in NY, is fighting with a 22 year old in the comments section and has the audacity to tell him to “grow the fuck up.” A 22 year old who, might I add, is one of the most intelligent, precocious, and respectful posters on this board.

    PS I don’t know if 22 is his age but it’s close.

    Tell you what, Hubert. Take your winnings from the Giannis MVP bet, incinerate them, and see what you can buy with it. Then tell me if that applies to the protected draft pick we got from CHA. Let me know how that turns out.

  101. But I remain every bit as skeptical that we will ever amount to more than a team that gets bounced in round 1, and that’s not what I want for the Knicks.

    This is a very good team, but there are injury risks, the defense is almost certainly going to take a step backwards, and it’s not a contender YET.

    However, we have Mitch, RJ, OBI, and Quick (and 2 rookies we haven’t seen yet), A couple of those guys are eligible to break out into serious players. At least 1 might this year. We have all our own 1st round picks, 2 excess first round picks, and an entire boatload of 2nd round picks. We are also now FINALLY a destination!! There’s plenty of ammo to upgrade and add another star in a deal. We are not locked into this team. We are simply better, much better positioned for FAs and trades as a destination, and loaded with ammo. Be happy!

  102. Just spitballin’ here… is it possible that this FO may have been privy to info that we layfolks would not have known?

    we were about to sign nunn so no…. likely we weren’t thrilled with what was left so we scoured some possibilities and this miraculously came up…

  103. Just spitballin’ here… is it possible that this FO may have been privy to info that we layfolks would not have known?

    They just tried to use the $8 million they’re using on Kemba on Nunn yesterday, so I’m going with a no there.

    EDITED TO ADD: Stupid djphan.

  104. strat.. doesn’t it tell you that you’re trying to strain justification on trading the draft pick when you were just so wrong about the cap implications of it just now?

    To be fair, being blatantly, unambiguously wrong has never stopped our man from sounding off before. Why start now?

    If the Kemba/Rose tandem excites you, then you are less inclined to feel that Rose/Burks over Lonzo, or Rose/Noel over Lonzo, or any combo of the contracts over Lonzo made no sense. So I think there are obvious reasons to consider context in evaluating the merits of those deals.

    The Rose/Walker platoon does excite me, but I still would’ve preferred us to use our cap space to acquire players who could both make the team better and be long-term assets provided that we were going to use 2022 space anyway.

    I don’t understand why you continue to use unnecessarily provocative metaphors. It’s just childish and stupid. Grow the fuck up.

    In the past week or so you have:

    -Said I was smug about LaMelo vs Hayes when my real position was “I prefer Hayes but understand the other side”

    -Said I was smug about IQ when my real position was: “Still though, he’s a good enough shooter that I can’t say it’s out of the question he winds up returning value at that slot. If he does, I don’t think it would be entirely fair to say the front office got lucky–they seem to have scouted him pretty heavily.”

    -Done the stupid ass big board sniping thing even though you appear to have had Wiseman ranked ahead of LaMelo Ball.

    So, spare me the fainting couch about saying trading the 19th pick for piss-poor value is “incinerating” it.

  105. The Zach Lowe podcast has a good segment about the Knicks today (pre-Kemba news). He and Kelvin Pelton basically theorize that (i) the Knicks think that the current wave of extensions will dry up FA in the future, so cap flexibility is not necessarily the best way to get a star in the next couple of years; and (ii) they are betting that by keeping the team good, eventually a superstar or two will force their way here, and the assortment of contracts they have (and picks) would make it easier to maneuver in that direction. It’s not how I would build the team, obviously, but at the same time I don’t agree that this is just like the old Knicks. There’s a bit more thinking of asset management here, and keeping some doors open/not overcommitting to a specific strategy.

  106. You can always do something to create space, but then you don’t have Knox to continue developing, trade, or use for space for someone else you like even better at the price than some role player in the draft.

    Lmao

  107. Tell you what, Hubert. Take your winnings from the Giannis MVP bet, incinerate them, and see what you can buy with it. Then tell me if that applies to the protected draft pick we got from CHA. Let me know how that turns out.

    that you’re so sensitive to the word ‘incinerate’ just tells everyone what they need to know in how sensitive you are to any criticism of this FO…. that you would call one of the most mature posters on this board childish speaks to the lengths you will go to troll people…

    i have no idea why this board tolerates it….

  108. Whether he accepts a second year with the Knicks will be fascinating, though. He could clear the remaining $9 million easily in the second year of a Knick deal, but wouldn’t it make more sense to just become a free agent next year?

    I agree. I’m really curious to see the final deal terms.

  109. So, Kemba Walker fell into the Knicks’ laps?! Nice!

    As far as IQ, I’d guess he might still get decent minutes…it’s likely that Walker and Rose each will miss games here and there, and if the team is in a solid playoff position deep in the season, maybe they sit those guys here and there or start minutes limiting them in getting ready for the playoffs. It wouldn’t be real surprising if one or the other misses a chunk of games at some point, either.

    Yeah, punting the 19 pick was still dumb, though.

  110. The fact that the Celtics used a first round pick to dump Kemba so that he could sign with the Knicks is amazing. Add in them spending two second round picks to get Fournier and then he ends up on the Knicks is even more delightful.

  111. Can we just agree on a gag rule regarding discussion of the 19th pick which may or may not have been incinerated, it’s a silly move that is really not that big a deal in the scheme of things (though it made me particularly angry since I’m pretty high on Jalen Johnson), especially now that we have shiny new free agents to talk about. All it causes is fractiousness!

    As far as I can tell, our roster currently is:
    Walker, Rose, McBride
    RJ, Fournier, IQ, Burks, Grimes, Knox
    Randle, Mitch, Noel, Obi, Taj

    That leaves one roster spot open, plus two two ways:

    So it seems like our remaining roster slot could go to one of:

    Vildoza/other stopgap PG (I’d wouldn’t mind seeing DSJ back, since he can apparently play D now), Defensive wing like Winslow (?), or maybe even KB favorite Langston Galloway, just for fun.

    Two ways likely then go to Sims & Simms.

    Am I missing anything?

  112. Hubert:
    Fair correction, Alan. I’ll rephrase: I expect IQ to be the 10th man and I expect him to play much less.

    It is also possible that IQ, an all-rookie candidate Leon stumbled into at #25 (lol) gets packaged with the #19 pick he incinerated for a better player. All of the young guys can be viewed as possible trade chips. I for one hope we keep him and continue to play him, but he’s a second year player under contract at a minimal salary so there’s really no downside to not playing him all that much.

    That said, there’s going to be plenty of load management taking place with Kemba and Rose, and maybe even Fournier, who tends to get dinged up. He’ll likely get 1000+ minutes, and more if he improves dramatically from last year. And for all we know, Kemba will not work out and will get waived mid-season.

    Thins has a deep roster to play with. That’s a great thing to go into a grueling 82 game season with, especially as the league is more saturated with talent than ever. Leon has the assets and flexibility to swing deals as needed. This should be a time of great anticipation for any fair-minded fan, even with the draft-day hiccups.

  113. You can always do something to create space, but then you don’t have Knox to continue developing,

    Haha. Kevin Knox. “Continue developing.”

    He’s about to have a breakthrough, you can just smell it!

  114. a weird dynamic here is that kemba is a biggish name and particularly likable. there is a (slim) chance that if he looks fairly healthy for 20 games and washington or portland struggle, he actually tilts the decision scale of beal or lillard, given how nba stars tend to think. in that case we’d find out pretty quickly how alienable some of our off-season signings were (post the dec 15 or whatever deadline), since we’d have to shed a good bit of peripheral salary, presumably to a third team, to do a deal like that.

  115. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada: Can we just agree on a gag rule regarding discussion of the 19th pick which may or may not have been incinerated

    No. There is zero probability that it was incinerated, no ifs, ands or buts about it. Using that language is flat out stupid. If people keep doing it, I will continue to point that out.

  116. djphan: that you’re so sensitive to the word ‘incinerate’ just tells everyone what they need to know in how sensitive you are to any criticism of this FO…. that you would call one of the most mature posters on this board childish speaks to the lengths you will go to troll people…

    i have no idea why this board tolerates it….

    I went away because I didn’t tolerate it, just like he spent weeks baiting me on every post with the word “mediocre” in an “unnecessary, provocative metaphor” way because he hated the word, no matter how much I explained what I meant.

    Anyway, great deal, hope to see a rested and recovered Kemba hitting big shots at MSG.

  117. Right now Knox, Toppin and IQ are now trade bait. Lots of future picks.

    Zion? Beal? Who’s begging out? This establishes a high floor. We’re a playoff team. Can we stop the Nyets? The Heat? Bucks? Lakers? Warriors? Probably not yet. One or two moves will happen during the season. The pieces are there. 2021/22 will be a fun season. How were we feeing this time last season? Anyone remember? How many of us predicted14 wins? Are we a 50 win team now?

  118. Yeah, punting the 19 pick was still dumb, though.

    It really does look even worse now, knowing that they were going to bring everyone back and so that whoever they drafted wasn’t going to play anyways. So they could have picked anyone and let them develop, Toronto Raptors-style. Passing on the option to get good young talent for cheap is never a good idea.

  119. I think Kemba will have an enormous chip on his shoulder since he was starting to get pegged with “washed up” and “always injured” (which is true of course)

    He should be tremendously motivated on the Knicks – hometown boy, shove it in the Celtics faces, etc. etc.

    So excited to have a competent PG on this team!

  120. A bigger picture thought about management:

    I thought Mills & Perry largely had the right idea, but they committed massive blunders while trying to execute (blunders like Knox, Fizdale, and stretching Noah). So ultimately they were terrible bc of those blunders (even though they did acquire our 3 best players).

    Conversely, Leon Rose has the wrong idea. But he is very good at executing it. He does deserve praise and I’ll admit I’m hard on him. I like to use a rock-climbing analogy a lot with him. Some guys start at the bottom and just go. They start climbing, they make gains, they look good, they get halfway up the wall… and then they get rim rocked. That’s what I see happening here.

    You’re not supposed to just try to make gains. You need to chart a path to the top. And I don’t see that here.

  121. Z-man, you make great points and I respect your point of view. Just stop with the name calling and personal attacks. We’re a community here.

  122. Obviously Kemba Walker is a better player than The Plague and we’re better at PG now. Even last year’s version of Kemba is still a decent player, and he’s only one year removed from being a 4 BPM player. He’s probably not likely to get back to that level, but you never know.

    I think the idea that Leon Rose has made the Knicks into a palatable destination has to be considered correct after this signing. This is essentially a free PG that has fallen into our laps.

    Bravo! Credit where it is due. Didn’t see this one coming.

  123. FWIW, my .02…

    Speaking as someone who rarely posts but religiously checks in on this site every day… I’m grateful for the work that djphan and tnfh do leading up to the draft. Absent a handful of games in the NCAA tourney, I don’t watch college hoops so I know sweet fuck all about any of the prospects come draft time.

    I find the info provided by KB’s resident draftniks to be tremendously helpful in bringing me somewhat up to speed on the players involved. Moreover, I prefer their takes to what I might find on some rando draft site on the web as I already know where they’re coming from, what they look for, their likes/dislikes etc. That they ultimately may wind up making the wrong call is of little concern to me. Comes with the territory My bottom line is that watching the draft is made a lot more entertaining for a know-nothing like me on account of whatever insights KB’s draftniks can provide. I, for one, hope they keep going through the trouble of doing what they do.

  124. Yeah, that’s right. This reflects very well on the FO’s ability to execute, something we have noted occasionally in the past like with the Ed Davis deal. Adding in the non-guaranteed third years, this is now a solid offseason overall given the options available. I still don’t love it, I would have tried to go a little younger and add a little more upside to the mix, but it’s fine.

    I’d still have taken a flier on a real impact prospect and the fact they didn’t reflects poorly on management’s view of where we are in the pecking order and imo their view of how to reach the ultimate goal of bringing a championship back to where it belongs.

    But it’s not a clusterfuck anymore. Until reports emerge that they had no idea Kemba was available and he just fell from heaven.

    And also, he’s going to be injured for 40 games and unavailable for the playoffs. But it’s still an excellent move.

  125. Bruno Almeida: I went away because I didn’t tolerate it, just like he spent weeks baiting me on every post with the word “mediocre” in an “unnecessary, provocative metaphor” way because he hated the word, no matter how much I explained what I meant.

    Anyway, great deal, hope to see a rested and recovered Kemba hitting big shots at MSG.

    Bruno, FWIW, I hope you resume posting regularly! You’re missed here.

    Getting Kemba is probably a lucky break, but I too look forward to him on the Knicks!

  126. Hubert: But I remain every bit as skeptical that we will ever amount to more than a team that gets bounced in round 1, and that’s not what I want for the Knicks.

    Your skepticism is certainly warranted, but again, just exactly one year ago we were expected to win 22.5 games. Our team next season looks like a relatively small but nice upgrade from last season (besides being almost totally wildly root-able outside of Rose) during an off-season with most people having little hope of an actual upgrade given the free agent landscape.

    Another point related to the minute concerns, which I certainly share to some degree — it’s very possible that Kemba starts off slow, minutes-wise (or not at all to start the season) due to rehab, it’s very possible Rose sits frequently due to minor injuries or minutes restrictions, it’s possible Mitch doesn’t start the season or is on minute restrictions. One of the many nice things about this team is its depth.

    I do want IQ to get 25 minutes a game, but maybe he averages that over the year due to unpredictable events. I also want to see Grimes and McBride — as rookies with great D chops and decent shots excite me, but given the team depth, and that it’s Thibs’ team, I’ll have to holster that wish.

  127. Bruno Almeida: I went away because I didn’t tolerate it, just like he spent weeks baiting me on every post with the word “mediocre” in an “unnecessary, provocative metaphor” way because he hated the word, no matter how much I explained what I meant.

    Intelligent, mature people know how not to use triggering language to make a point. Words like “incinerate” and “mediocre” have pretty narrow meanings. If they clearly don’t apply, don’t use them.

    There’s also a certain irony in that that folks can use the most insulting language in responding to strat and others, but don’t like it when it comes back their way. If we have a standard for poster behavior, it should apply to all…and it should include not using “unnecessarily provocative metaphors” to make a point. We’ve been doing this a long time, folks know each other’s triggers pretty well. And if you don’t like when I refer back to the recent dumb shit that you spouted with unflinching conviction, well then don’t continue to spout dumb shit with unflinching conviction.

  128. But it’s not a clusterfuck anymore. Until reports emerge that they had no idea Kemba was available and he just fell from heaven.

    Again, they tried to sign Nunn for the deal they’re giving Kemba. So this wasn’t part of the plan, except a general “make the team look appealing to guys when unexpected things happen,” of course, which is a fair thing to give them credit for, just not for specifically this specific player. Getting Kemba wasn’t the plan, but making the team attractive enough that players would want to sign with them is, so they still get credit for that.

  129. Burks seems a little superfluous, he’ll be getting minutes that should be going to IQ. But depth is important too, and injuries happen. I do hope IQ gets the minutes he deserves.

  130. Z-man: No. There is zero probability that it was incinerated, no ifs, ands or buts about it. Using that language is flat out stupid. If people keep doing it, I will continue to point that out.

    There’s a 50% chance plus it was completely incinerated, but that’s not what incinerated means anyway. You already confessed to not really knowing what Team Incineration even meant.

    And who died and made you the language police around here, anyway? I don’t recall your appointment.

  131. Yes yes YAAASSSS!!!

    What a great hedge bet! We finally get a discount/buyout guy that wants to play for us! But moreso, we don’t need him to be peak Kemba to be good for us. And we have the depth to do whatever load management he may need.

    What an awesome way to start the day!

  132. There’s a 22 year old on here? That means they were in elementary school when I started posting here. Ouch, my mortality.

    Z-Man, you need to let it go. Even though I lean towards more your opinions, you’re making it unnecessarily personal and emotional and it’s not helping.

  133. Z-man: Intelligent, mature people know how not to use triggering language to make a point. Words like “incinerate” and “mediocre” have pretty narrow meanings. If they clearly don’t apply, don’t use them.

    The term “incinerate” works perfectly for a situation where you trade a dollar of draft capital for an expected 50-75 cents of draft capital. The 25-50 cent loss was literally for nothing.

    You’ve never understood the mechanics of this, or what people are even saying. And now you have the audacity to tell people who know what they’re talking about not to use a word that makes perfect sense to them as a descriptor? Seems rather snowflake.

    What should people think about a situation where someone is so in the tank for a basketball management team that they have trigger words from which they need a safe space?

  134. It is very nice to know that the Lakers aren’t the only team to have gifts fall into their laps. This is so awesome.

    #LOLKNICKS

    seriously though, I had forgotten all about kemba…

  135. My bottom line is that watching the draft is made a lot more entertaining for a know-nothing like me on account of whatever insights KB’s draftniks can provide. I, for one, hope they keep going through the trouble of doing what they do.

    completely cosign…

  136. There’s also a certain irony in that that folks can use the most insulting language in responding to strat and others, but don’t like it when it comes back their way. If we have a standard for poster behavior, it should apply to all…and it should include not using “unnecessarily provocative metaphors” to make a point. We’ve been doing this a long time, folks know each other’s triggers pretty well. And if you don’t like when I refer back to the recent dumb shit that you spouted with unflinching conviction, well then don’t continue to spout dumb shit with unflinching conviction.

    this tone police bullshit is what makes this place toxic and you instigate most of it…. when it’s not even directed at you who cares? the front office and its players have been called all sorts of things for the entirety of the life of the sport… it comes with the discourse.. many of it is unjustified.. some justified… and many people talk about how it’s unjustified or justified.. i

    but why do we have to walk on eggshells cause of you? like wtf do we owe you to ‘watch our language’? you think this is your house or school or something? gtfo… i’ll talk about this team how i want and i expect no less from others as they have every right to… what we shouldn’t tolerate are people attacking each other and not the argument…. and you are the worst offender…

    i have no idea why we tolerate it…. especially when it’s now been multiple people the target of your ire that brings the whole board down and make people not want to participate…. it’s tiresome… and that’s why i would have gladly gotten a mutual ban if it meant you went away too… and i would still take that….

  137. The ‘tone police’ act is tiring. No one else here gives a shit about the adjectives people use to describe the trade.

  138. TheClashFan: Bruno, FWIW, I hope you resume posting regularly! You’re missed here.

    Getting Kemba is probably a lucky break, but I too look forward to him on the Knicks!

    Thanks man! I’ll be here every now and then when there’s stuff to talk about, I still enjoy most people here a lot and the level of discussion is still very high. I’ve just decided I’ll refuse to directly engage with Z-Man in any discussions, like I did with strat years ago, specially because there’s really no point in continuing to submit everyone else on the board to a discussion that’s clearly personal. I don’t need more stupid negativity in my life in my current fucked up situation.

  139. not sure exactly what’s going on (not really true); but, I will say:

    I need more bruno in my life…really really enjoy bruno’s thoughts and perspective on basketball and beyond…

    I get though the whole managing negativity input in to your life…whatever works for you bruno, but, yeah you are most definitely appreciated for your input here :)

    sorry to hear you may be running through a bumpy patch of life, wishing for things to smooth out for you brother…

  140. Hubert: Hubert
    August 4, 2021 at 11:58 am
    Z-man, you make great points and I respect your point of view. Just stop with the name calling and personal attacks. We’re a community here.

    Agreed, Hubert, and I think that’s reflected in my recent response to your more measured posting. Honestly, I think you’d be a blast to have a few scotches with at a KB get-together. I just didn’t like a particular insinuation you made about me, and if you knew me better, you’d know why. I also appreciate that you have a thick skin and a sense of humor.

    I’d also like to differentiate between “name calling/personal attack” and attacking a posting record on its merits and language. Nearly all of my “attacks” tnfh and djphan have been about their recent posting history (including things we had vehement disagreements about, e.g. Lamelo vs. Killian, IQ vs. others, and of course, Leon Rose’s performance thus far as a POBO at various steps. I never attacked them (or you) in their personal lives. yet I have not been afforded the same deference.

    And yes, after those heated disagreements, it matters how things eventually turned out, and who was right and wrong. As I said before, admitting you were wrong is nice, but if you arrive at the same kinds of half-baked conclusions with the same conviction as if nothing happened, then those admissions become meaningless. Taking myself out of the picture, I have yet to hear tnfh or djphan say “hey swifty, you were all over that shit last year, I sure could learn something from you and should take your posts more seriously than I did then…” Nope, same know-it-all, condescending schtik, and likely, same woeful miscalculation to follow. Which is fine, but when it’s rubbed in your face in the future, don’t get all thin-skinned about it.

  141. Brian Cronin: they tried to sign Nunn for the deal they’re giving Kemba

    Does this entirely preclude any possibility of their not hearing rumblings out of OKC of a Kemba buyout? Perhaps Nunn was this FO’s Plan A for a cheap veteran PG with Kemba being Plan B? That they did NOT pivot to pursuing the likes of Schroder or Jackson right after losing out on Nunn suggest that Rose & Co, MIGHT have known that other options might soon become available.

    As I’ve said, I have no idea whether or not that was the case and would not be at all surprised to lean that it was just dumb luck. Given how much has been made about Rose being a POBO who may prefer to rely on his “connections” as his main focus of doing business, it seems reasonable to speculate that more than luck might have been in play here.

  142. Bruno Almeida: Thanks man! I’ll be here every now and then when there’s stuff to talk about, I still enjoy most people here a lot and the level of discussion is still very high. I’ve just decided I’ll refuse to directly engage with Z-Man in any discussions, like I did with strat years ago, specially because there’s really no point in continuing to submit everyone else on the board to a discussion that’s clearly personal. I don’t need more stupid negativity in my life in my current fucked up situation.

    Bruno, I have nothing but love for you. I miss your posting too. PS: Do you still think that we lost to a mediocre team?

  143. Which is fine, but when it’s rubbed in your face in the future, don’t get all thin-skinned about it.

    yo am i dreaming?

  144. Hubert: But I remain every bit as skeptical that we will ever amount to more than a team that gets bounced in round 1, and that’s not what I want for the Knicks.

    Hey Hubert – Compared to a year ago, even your skepticism for team expectations has improved! That’s still progress!

    Hey, no one “wants” their team to be bounced in the first round, or any round honestly. And for all the background fears I sense of some that we’re facing an Orlando Magic-low playoff seed purgatory, three things:
    1. I don’t think you can fairly count last season in the sense that we weren’t predicted to sniff the playoffs at all.
    2. It could happen, sure. I just feel the fear behind it is some sort of mental shielding from the risk of expecting better and then being potentially let down.
    3. Didn’t the Magic post-Dwight commit to an overall youth movement? My non-nuanced take is that their key young guys developed some but didn’t “pop”.

    As I said before, I don’t believe any Knick fan needs to excuse their pessimism. At the same time, we don’t have to give in to the deepest recesses of fear either.

    Let’s go get some this season!

  145. geo:
    not sure exactly what’s going on (not really true); but, I will say:

    I need more bruno in my life…really really enjoy bruno’s thoughts and perspective on basketball and beyond…

    I get though the whole managing negativity input in to your life…whatever works for you bruno, but, yeah you are most definitely appreciated for your input here :)

    sorry to hear you may be running through a bumpy patch of life, wishing for things to smooth out for you brother…

    You’re a gem, Geo. It’s all fine really, it’s just the reflection of working on the final touches of a phD on queer artistic performances in a country that elected a self declared homophobe as a president. Very low perspective of working on my field after the doctorate is over, but hopefully once this nightmare presidency is over next year, things will get better. If there’s one thing we know how to do is survive and thrive against the odds. I just don’t have the mental health to deal with this plus engaging with semantics arguments over basketball opinions on my leisure time, so yeah, the real life stuff will take priority.

  146. Z-man: Bruno, I have nothing but love for you. I miss your posting too. PS: Do you still think that we lost to a mediocre team?

    Thanks for the love, I guess. But I still won’t fall for the bait.

  147. Just know that any comment I make is made out of love. I totally get being skeptical about the Knicks. Just feel like its time to give up the ghost and we cannot expect perfection on every move. But honestly, I feel like when you look at the whole picture of this off season, its a home run.

    We picked up promising role players in the draft while also picking up assets and clearing a little cap space. We signed back our vets on deals that are market fair value with team options. We addressed a huge issue with our starting 5 on offense by upgrading to Fournier (also a good deal) and we just picked up a low risk, high reward, potentially feel good story of next season with Kemba. Our young players like RJ, Obi, IQ are set up for success and even though we got a lot of vets, we have a lot of youth too.

    And we are in a position to make a superstar trade with our draft picks and useful vets on reasonable contracts. Or potentially trade some of these vets down the road for future picks if we want to go that route. Burks, Noel and Rose could all be useful to a playoff team and could potentially net us late first rounders or some second rounders like we did with Marcus Morris.

    I don’t know. I’m pretty fucking happy. And I do not buy that there is some hard ceiling for this current iteration of this team. If RJ takes as big of a step forward this season as he did last season or if IQ makes a similar jump forward, the ceiling immediately raises a lot for this team.

    And yeah, Atlanta kicked our ass. But we also gave them game one, started Elfrid Payton, Noel was hobbled and we didn’t have Mitch. The difference btwn losing to a team in 5 games beating them the next year can oftentimes be very small.

  148. Didn’t the Magic post-Dwight commit to an overall youth movement? My non-nuanced take is that their key young guys developed some but didn’t “pop”.

    They started to develop a bit and then decided it was time to “Win now” and so they dealt Victor Oladipo and Domantas Sabonis for Serge Ibaka, so…yeah. ;)

  149. Personally, I think “The Incinerator” would make a bad-ass nickname. If I were Leon Rose, I’d wear it with pride.

  150. Saw this tweet and it made me smile

    The Celtics essentially traded a 1st round pick, two 2nd round picks, and took on Al Horford’s contract for Kemba Walker and Evan Fournier to walk to the Knicks for cap space

    Now all that needs to happen is the Celtics in desperation sign Elf.

  151. Atlanta’s on the rise, but they were a lower seed than the Knicks and they absolutely incinerated the Knicks. When’s the last time a 5 even beat a 4, 4-1 or 4-0?

    Is Atlanta a “mediocre” team? Probably not at this point, but the team that creamed the Knicks absolutely, positively was mediocre for much of the 2020-21 campaign, with the same players they played in the playoffs.

    During my years lurking here, I thought the place had a real nice handle on the concept of NBA purgatory appeal. That seems to be slipping a bit. Is this roster trending toward real, actual contention? With the rookies’ and 2nd year players’ playing time getting preemptively usurped by veterans in or about ready to hit their decline phase? With the team seemingly not caring much about the draft and flat out punting the 19th pick? Not really seeing it. For those who want to be happy and positive that the team isn’t Pillsdale-ian anymore, that’s all fine and good — but it doesn’t remotely mean they aren’t in and heading toward purgatory. It’s kind of weird and not really Knickerbloggian for that to be some kind of outré, if not officially unapproved, opinion.

  152. This made me smile:

    The Honorable Cock Jowles
    August 4, 2021 at 11:47 am
    Not even I can complain about this one.

    I’m not sure it’s as simple as if we had 6 he would take 6 or since we offered Nunn 8 we couldn’t have been negotiating with KW earlier. I’m not sure we will ever know. Isn’t it possible though that OKC was on the fence about buying him out and us offering to offer him 8 for 2 years offsetting their cost got them there…and that negotiating with Nunn could have been a bluff (I’m asking if this is feasible, have not done any research). Seems more of a stretch, but isn’t it possible that negotiation stretched all the way back to the draft, so punting out of 19 was part of it to free up the $ to convince OKC to buy him out?

    I’m more of a process then outcome guy, but if the outcome is we get Kemba for 2 yrs, I’m going to stop worrying about the NYK process for a bit here and try to enjoy the team.

    Brian Cronin
    August 4, 2021 at 11:07 am
    I should add one thing. I haven’t crunched the numbers, but it seems reasonable to assume they wouldn’t have been able to sign Kemba if they didn’t “incinerate” that 1st round pick (I mean push it out so they could still use in a stronger draft or trade) and trade the other down to save that cap space.
    It’s almost assuredly a case of Kemba taking the $8 million from the Knicks because that’s what the Knicks have (remember, he’s being paid out by the Thunder, as well, so the specifics of the money for this year are almost meaningless). In other words, if they had $6 million, he would take that. So, in a word, no.

  153. swiftandabundant: But we also gave them game one, started Elfrid Payton,

    Tom Thibodeau did that, against all basketball sense and reason. Elfrid Payton didn’t start two playoff games because Zeus commanded it from Mount Olympus.

    And I know it seems to be a trigger word around here, but he got badly outcoached by Nate McMillian. And he ran Derrick Rose into the ground. That’s part of the story of the year, too. People are free to ignore that, but it happened. Yeah, that was last year but it’s still relevant because Tom Thibodeau is still … you know … the Knicks coach. Once the playoffs started, he lost his “every game is Game 7” advantage and the results were … not pretty.

  154. E, you keep pushing this lower seed narrative.

    The Hawks and Knicks had the exact same record. We only had the higher seed bc we owned the regular season matchups against them. One of those games was before Nate took over as their coach and the other one Trae got hurt.

    Its super shady to keep pushing this narrative. I mean, technically you are right but there is absolutely zero nuance or context to this statement. We had the same regular season record as they did. And if you look at the second half of the season, they were even hotter than we were. We treaded at 500 for the first half of the season, they were below 500 and then went on a tear once Nate took over.

  155. Count de Pennies:
    Personally, I think “The Incinerator” would make a bad-ass nickname. If I were Leon Rose, I’d wear it with pride.

    I was on the verge of changing my handle when I saw this. But I can’t since you jumped me on being clever.

  156. The pick wasn’t incinerated. It was just very badly charred.

    I prefer to think of it as Draft Flambe.

  157. Your skepticism is certainly warranted, but again, just exactly one year ago we were expected to win 22.5 games.

    I predicted a playoff berth before the season started, and pegged then for 36 wins when everyone expected them to crater, so I don’t think I need to grade them on other people’s expectations.

    I have always believed that Leon Rose and Tom Thibodeau could get us to the middle. It’s taking us beyond that I doubt.

    I know Jalen Johnson and Keon Johnson are flawed prospects, but they were also undeniably lottery talents that fell into our lap at 19 & 21. You don’t punt on lottery talent at 19 & 21, even if it’s questionable. They could have been our 11th & 12th men for two years while they played sparingly and matured. And then I would have given Leon an A plus for the off-season for balancing short term and long term goals.

  158. Count de Pennies:
    Personally, I think “The Incinerator” would make a bad-ass nickname. If I were Leon Rose, I’d wear it with pride.

    Let’s go one step further.

    How about The Mediocre Incinerator?

  159. One of the nice things about this move is it gives you a reasonable way to be optimistic about the Knicks for next season. Even if Kemba doesn’t play any better than he did last year if he gives the knicks 1500 minutes at that level it’s like a 3 or 4 win improvement on Payton

  160. Voted “Very Pumped”. I know there’s injury issues with Kemba, but this is the more well rounded team that we had in… i don’t know for how long to be honest… Marbury was good, but the rest of the team wasn’t like this.
    Let’s just pray that Kemba can stay healthy, for this to not be Stat 2.0.
    (and like yesterday i comment first and only now i’m going to read the thread)

  161. i have no idea why we tolerate it…. especially when it’s now been multiple people the target of your ire that brings the whole board down and make people not want to participate…. it’s tiresome… and that’s why i would have gladly gotten a mutual ban if it meant you went away too… and i would still take that….

    cosign.

    sorry, Z-Man, your behavior is consistently abhorrent. You’re the common denominator in every fight on this board. The only difference between you and Bob Neptune is that you ingratiate yourself to several key posters. But you behave exactly like him.

    It’s nothing but personal favoritism to ban one and not the other. The conduct is the same.

  162. Hubert: I predicted 36 wins and a playoff berth, so I don’t think I need to grade them on other people’s expectations.

    I have always believed that Leon Rose and Tom Thibodeau could get us to the middle. It’s taking us beyond that I doubt.

    I know Jalen Johnson and Keon Johnson are flawed prospects, but they were also undeniably lottery talents that fell into our lap at 19 & 21. You don’t punt on lottery talent, even if it’s questionable. They could have been our 11th & 12th men for two years while they played sparingly and matured. And then I would have given Leon an A plus for the off-season for balancing short term and long term goals.

    They have a shortfall in U-23 talent now and there’s no way they’re going to make it up with this approach because they’re heading toward not being in lotteries but still not really being that good — i.e. purgatory. Would have been better to have been in the lottery last year and obviously way better not to have [verb that dare not speak its name]-d the 19th pick.

    We’re heading toward a Thibsian veteran/loyalty roster that will get a few extra Thibs wins in the regular season that won’t translate to the playoffs for the foreseeable future.

    The best thing for this team would be for RJ Barrett to take one more big step, become the best player on the team, and make this HIS team. He’s got the moxie to do it; he might (but might not) have the talent; but even then, there’s a real question whether Thibs will accede to it.

  163. So Sims is likely a 2-way unless Vildoza really sinks it up, even then it doesn’t make sense to carry 4 Cs.

    I’d love to cut Knox, but he’s probably our main PF injury insurance. Taj might be able to it and then cut Knox for literally anyone, but that’s a pretty closed floor.

  164. Granted, I don’t think he’s a franchise savior, a la Lillard, but the price? C’mon. We went from Payton to Kemba at essentially the same salary. I never saw that coming.

  165. I’m not super worried about injuries to our PGs. It just means more playing time for McBride, Vildoza, & IQ. Obviously, I’d rather they stay healthy for as many games as possible but a few games here or there won’t be the end of the world.

  166. DRed:
    also shit like this is why you never spend all your money at the start of free agency

    Key word is “all”. Establish the floor first and then shoot for the sky.

  167. Early Bird:
    So Sims is likely a 2-way unless Vildoza really sinks it up, even then it doesn’t make sense to carry 4 Cs.

    I’d love to cut Knox, but he’s probably our main PF injury insurance. Taj might be able to it and then cut Knox for literally anyone, but that’s a pretty closed floor.

    Knox is trade bait for a rebuilding team. Look for a lone star with a big deal on a lousy team. Leon’s already working the phones. This is far from done.

  168. Perhaps our “Team of Rivals” FO should re-brand itself as Team Brûlée.

    Team being pronounced “tem”? I like it.

  169. Give me Bronx-born, UCONN alum Kemba Walker on the Knicks over Lillard any day of the week. I just love to see it (but yeah he’s not as good).

  170. Sign me up for being a middle playoff team stuck in purgatory. Win or tank is such an awful mentality and after 20 years of suffering, I’ll take mid 40’s to low 50’s wins for a few years and a first or second round playoff team. I don’t think this is the final chapter of this team yet, either. And yeah we don’t have lottery picks but we have lots of picks the next few years and moveable contracts plus young players that can improve. I don’t feel like we’re stuck in purgatory.

    Also, cap space is important but flexibility is key. Miami year after year is at the cap with no cap space and yet they’re able to figure out ways to get Butler and Lowry and there is no reason we can’t do that same.

    Also, not for nothing but our highest paid player is also our best player. And after that…there’s like no one above 12 million a year. That’s kind of crazy to me.

  171. Also, Kemba may want a multi-year deal because of injury. Probably a player option though.

  172. Count de Pennies: Obv, Lillard >>>>>>>>>>> Kemba but is Lillard minus a shit-ton of assets still > Kemba minus nothing? That one seems much closer to call.

    Yeah, absolutely. I’d rather have Kemba, RJ and Mitch than Lillard. Now if we were talking about SGA? Different story.

  173. The path to non-purgatory is RJ taking the next big step in the next 1-2 years and an S&T for Zion next summer. All the rest is really just noise.

  174. swiftandabundant: Sign me up for being a middle playoff team stuck in purgatory.

    Then that’s the fundamental difference in perspective from which all else flows. Those who are ok with 5 and 6 seed purgatory will see someone like Julius Randle or the 19th pick or a first round blowout to a lower seed one way; someone who isn’t will see them a completely different way.

  175. swiftandabundant: Also, cap space is important but flexibility is key. Miami year after year is at the cap with no cap space and yet they’re able to figure out ways to get Butler and Lowry and there is no reason we can’t do that same.

    Miami has a built in tax advantage on NY of around 8%, plus an additional 3% if a player wants to live in the city. On a $30M AAV contract that’s something on the order of $3M per year.

  176. I assume we’re playing Knox in the summer league in an effort to bamboozle some team into being dumb enough to trade for him

  177. I have to co-sign concerns that we aren’t building a sufficient young core compared to where we are relative to elite teams. I’d feel a lot better about the team if it had Jalen Johnson or a number of other players who were available with the incinerated pick (can’t stop won’t stop), and as we’ve discussed it wouldn’t have cost us a single 2021-2022 win to do so. That’s what’s kind of gutting about it.

    Still, I do think this is a great sign as to the prospects of the next star who asks out wanting to come here specifically. Whether or not we ever reach contention honestly might boil down to just how good that star is–I like Bradley Beal, but don’t think he gets us there assuming we have to trade a ton for him. Zion on the other hand…

    I’m a little less concerned than some others about Quickley’s minutes because I’m assuming he’ll get just about all of the minutes missed by Kemba and/or Rose and, well, yeah.

  178. thenoblefacehumper: I’m a little less concerned than some others about Quickley’s minutes because I’m assuming he’ll get just about all of the minutes missed by Kemba and/or Rose and, well, yeah.

      

    Yeah, Kemba’s had two cartilage repairs and a stem-cell injection on the same knee — the latter last December — and it looks like the stem-cell injection really didn’t help that much. That’s not a promising outlook.

  179. Interesting. Oladipo returning to Miami. I wonder what the cap effect is on that. I think you don’t need a cap hold, even, to re-sign a guy at his previous salary, but I could be wrong.

  180. one way out of purgatory was using the picks a lot better than how he used it…. at least one of the rose/burks/noel bench triumverate is superfluous… and even if it it wasn’t… there are absolutely opportunities to develop players in the gleague just like many successful franchises do…

    and that’s why the 19th pick wasn’t some small mistake… errors compound… bad process led us to skipping over haliburton in favor of toppin instead of being patient with randle… also led us to punting on the 33rd.. that guy could have filled a roster spot rather cheaply instead of using it on the one of the bench trio…. you don’t respect the draft often enough you’re stuck with mediocre veterans with zero upside and all the downside that they present… kemba walker and derrick rose included…. do we need to burn a lottery pick to hit this point home after we incinerated a 2nd and a mid first?

    and that’s where we’re at …. this plan is no different than any other coach as gm plan as there ever was… it’s the same as larry brown as gm… mike dunleavy…. phil jackson… and essentially our gm is probably thibs at this point… they want some veteran players so they’re not absolutely terrible and then when they lose they will blame the players and continually jettison them at whatever cost until they get whatever they want .. if it’s not this team it will be the next team.. same thing happened with thibs in minnesota…

    they don’t really think more than the next year and it hurts the overall trajectory of the team… and i think we all see that… that doesn’t mean we can’t enjoy success if it comes in the short term…. it’s just i think we all know where this is headed and it’s not really something to be going gaga over…

  181. geo:
    not sure exactly what’s going on (not really true); but, I will say:

    I need more bruno in my life…really really enjoy bruno’s thoughts and perspective on basketball and beyond…

    I get though the whole managing negativity input in to your life…whatever works for you bruno, but, yeah you are most definitely appreciated for your input here :)

    sorry to hear you may be running through a bumpy patch of life, wishing for things to smooth out for you brother…

    Totally agree with all of this, Bruno. Visit often, and smooth travels.

  182. Has anyone on team “don’t incinerate picks” noted that in 2015-2016 the Raptors won 56 games and went to game 6 of the ECFs, then proceeded to draft Pascal Siakam and play him mostly in the G-League?

    Like, good teams still try to develop players, guys, I swear.

  183. Again with your bullshit lower playoff seed narrative. Jesus, drop it. You are so obviously choosing to be negative.

    The only path to a championship is Zion? Seriously? He’s a great young player but hasn’t really done anything special in the NBA yet.

    I just hate this whole idea that you somehow have a crystal ball that shows the future. Last year The Bucks lost in the first round and everyone said Giannis was on the clock to leave and how would they build a real team. Now they’re champs. 2 seasons ago the Suns were a lottery team. You have no idea who is going to break out to be a star or where they will want to play or who we might find in the draft. Or which late first rounder will turn out to be the next Jimmy Butler. You don’t know and your pessimism is unwarranted.

    Atlanta was 2 games away from the Finals and had the same record as us. Stop it with your lower playoff seed bullshit narrative. Its so egregiously false.

  184. THe only way to a championship is convincing a player who’s never been to the playoffs to come here. OK.

    Quit rosterbating over other dudes we don’t have. Its pathetic.

  185. Or that Jimmy Butler averaged like 4 minutes a game his rookie year and then came back much improved and became an all-star. You do not have to play every rookie every game to develop them. We have the g-league, summer league, training camp, preseason, and practices during the regular season. Not to mention veterans who can show them the way and also development coaches who can help them if they’re willing to put in the work. Some of it is on the rookies to show they’re worthy. IQ did that and got more and more minutes as the season wore one. Obi started out awful but improved and got more minutes culminating in a good playoffs. He will get more this season most likely. If Grimes or McBride show up, they will play some. They’re late first round picks, not lottery players.

  186. I just hate this whole idea that you somehow have a crystal ball that shows the future.

    if nobody has a crystal ball then why does it matter what we say vs what you say is the future? what guarantees do we have that we’re any good next year like you’re saying then? wouldn’t that make your optimism misplaced if none of it matters?

  187. I mean, Zion’s not the ONLY way to get to the next level but he is ONE way.

    You get one swing at bringing in the big fish superstar, and if you whiff *coughMELOcough* you’re generally screwed for a good long while.

    If they’re going to do a superstar trade it needs to be for a guy with MVP ceiling.

  188. Siakim played 5 games in the G-league. He played 55 games for the Raptors and averaged 15 min a game. Can we kill this Siakim G-league narrative now?

  189. We need Knickname for Evan Fournier asap…any thoughts?

    “French Connection…the good one this time.”

  190. You guys keep bringing up over and over again that we could have drafted Jalen Johnson with the 19th pick. I will confess that I don’t know much about him and maybe we’ll be forever ruing the day we “incin…” I mean “flambeed” the 19th pick, but what is it about this guy that makes some of you feel he’s a lock to be a productive NBA player as a 19th pick?

  191. Ryan McDonough (former Suns GM?) just tweeted that Burks, Noel, and Rose contracts are all 3rd year team option.

    Also that Kemba’s is a 2 year deal at $8-9MM AAV.
    Not clear whether 2nd year is fully guaranteed or is a team or player option…

  192. Or that Jimmy Butler averaged like 4 minutes a game his rookie year and then came back much improved and became an all-star. You do not have to play every rookie every game to develop them. We have the g-league, summer league, training camp, preseason, and practices during the regular season. Not to mention veterans who can show them the way and also development coaches who can help them if they’re willing to put in the work. Some of it is on the rookies to show they’re worthy. IQ did that and got more and more minutes as the season wore one. Obi started out awful but improved and got more minutes culminating in a good playoffs. He will get more this season most likely. If Grimes or McBride show up, they will play some. They’re late first round picks, not lottery players.

    Which is an argument for using the #19 pick and not punting it.

  193. I mean “flambeed” the 19th pick, but what is it about this guy that makes some of you feel he’s a lock to be a productive NBA player as a 19th pick?

    it’s not a lock.. but i mean the atlanta hawks .. who we all agree is so much better and deeper than us… found a way to draft him and use him….

  194. djphan: i have no idea why we tolerate it…. especially when it’s now been multiple people the target of your ire that brings the whole board down and make people not want to participate…. it’s tiresome… and that’s why i would have gladly gotten a mutual ban if it meant you went away too… and i would still take that….

    We just have different definitions of what we call tiresome. I find your posting incredibly tiresome yet would never call for you to be banned. But hey, opinions vary.

    Hubert: sorry, Z-Man, your behavior is consistently abhorrent. You’re the common denominator in every fight on this board. The only difference between you and Bob Neptune is that you ingratiate yourself to several key posters. But you behave exactly like him.

    It’s nothing but personal favoritism to ban one and not the other. The conduct is the same.

    The bobneptune comparison is curious, being that he was banned in part for incessantly spouting conspiracy theory bs based on nothing but innuendo and preconceived narratives. Hmmm…who does that sound like?

  195. You guys keep bringing up over and over again that we could have drafted Jalen Johnson with the 19th pick. I will confess that I don’t know much about him and maybe we’ll be forever ruing the day we “incin…” I mean “flambeed” the 19th pick, but what is it about this guy that makes some of you feel he’s a lock to be a productive NBA player as a 19th pick?

    He was just the highest upside of the guys available there. He had lottery buzz a couple of months ago, but other guys rose.

  196. Rose-Burks-Noel are absolutely necessary. The falloff between them and a rookie is likely to be pretty gargantuan. Maybe Grimes or McBride steps up, but you hope that happens and don’t rely on that happening. I really don’t understand your point here as there would be a big hole in the rotation without all 3.

  197. DJ,

    None of us do know. But the pessimism is unwarranted.

    If I have a good basketball team that has all their picks, productive players on good contracts, some nice young players that could improve and a solid coaching staff…why would I CHOSE to be overly pessimistic about the future. Its stupid.

    Oh no! I can’t guarantee The Knicks will make the Eastern Conference Finals two years into Leon Rose’s tenure as GM. So despite the overwhelmingly positive news the last 18 months, I’m going to continually post negative outcomes and be cynical about the Knicks because I’m addicted to it. Give it up!

    And yes, I’m gonna brow beat everyone about this. Deal with it! We’re a good team and we have more upside than downside. I’m not gonna let losing one playoff series and not agreeing with every single draft and free agent move turn me into a curmudgeon.

    Why not CHOOSE to be positive until proven otherwise?

  198. Re Jalen Johnson — plays power forward, can’t shoot, went to and left 3 different high schools, then went to Duke and then ejected on that situation too. Given his high profile, there’s a 1000% chance Alex Kline, Kenny Payne, and co. know him extremely well.

    So much of what determines a player’s success is non-physical — I don’t see a whole lot to complain about here. Selling the 19th pick for uncertain future return? I can complain about that. Not using the 19th pick on a guy who has clearly has some sort of commitment issue? Not complaining about that.

    If there’s anything the Leon Rose draft picks have in common, it is that they are total gym rats and are very very clean on personal background. Obi, Quickley, Grimes, McBride — all known to be major gym rats and workers, and all were lauded by their coaches.

    I don’t know enough about Keon Johnson, but he sort of screams Zhaire Smith to me – Uber-athletic guy who doesn’t really know how to do stuff. Zhaire was also a favorite here as I remember it.

  199. swiftandabundant:
    DJ,

    None of us do know. But the pessimism is unwarranted.

    If I have a good basketball team that has all their picks, productive players on good contracts, some nice young players that could improve and a solid coaching staff…why would I CHOSE to be overly pessimistic about the future. Its stupid.

    Oh no! I can’t guarantee The Knicks will make the Eastern Conference Finals two years into Leon Rose’s tenure as GM. So despite the overwhelmingly positive news the last 18 months, I’m going to continually post negative outcomes and be cynical about the Knicks because I’m addicted to it. Give it up!

    And yes, I’m gonna brow beat everyone about this. Deal with it! We’re a good team and we have more upside than downside. I’m not gonna let losing one playoff series and not agreeing with every single draft and free agent move turn me into a curmudgeon.

    Why not CHOOSE to be positive until proven otherwise?

    +1000

  200. Jalen’s combination of steals, blocks, assists, and rebounds are pretty insane. He also averaged over 20pts per 40. He can’t shoot, but that’s tremendous talent there.

    He does have some pretty big character question marks which is why he fell. Also, the sample wasn’t the biggest.

  201. swiftandabundant: Why not CHOOSE to be positive until proven otherwise?

    I wish I knew — I’d be a much better golfer and tennis player if I could find the answer.

  202. Nice way to wake up from an afternoon nap (then I had to read all the posts…)

    Kemba (a personal favorite since “that” Big East Tournament) on a 2yr deal at 8-9 per?
    No Dennis Schroder? No The Plague Part III?

    Great day to be a Knicks Fan!
    Verrrrry pumped…

    Welcome back Bruno! You’re missed, hope things will get better for you ASAP

    And I’m adding myself to Count and Geo: thanks to DJPhan and TNFH for everything you do about the draft, your work is indispensable.

  203. Oh no! I can’t guarantee The Knicks will make the Eastern Conference Finals two years into Leon Rose’s tenure as GM. So despite the overwhelmingly positive news the last 18 months, I’m going to continually post negative outcomes and be cynical about the Knicks because I’m addicted to it. Give it up!

    And yes, I’m gonna brow beat everyone about this. Deal with it! We’re a good team and we have more upside than downside. I’m not gonna let losing one playoff series and not agreeing with every single draft and free agent move turn me into a curmudgeon.

    this is a serious misinterpretation and exaggeration of everything anyone has ever said…. i have no idea where you get off about me continually posting negative outcomes.. do you have anything in particular you want to talk about because you seem to think i’m being overly negative when my post history has been anything but…

  204. thenoblefacehumper:
    Has anyone on team “don’t incinerate picks” noted that in 2015-2016 the Raptors won 56 games and went to game 6 of the ECFs, then proceeded to draft Pascal Siakam and play him mostly in the G-League?

    Like, good teams still try to develop players, guys, I swear.

    Sure, but can we also point to the majority of picks at least 5 spots outside the lottery who never become ful-time NBA rotation players? And that we actually are trying to develop players, picked at 25, 34, 36, 57, and UDFA? Not to mention Obi, IQ and Vildoza? And that lottery-protected picks, even those that have a risk of devolving into two seconds, are used to facilitate trades all the time?

    I agree that we did not get good value in exchange for the pick. My main objection is that it was used to justify the “this FO doesn’t know what it’s doing, we’re doomed to perpetual mediocrity, theyre just as bad as all the previous FOs, more terrible moves are coming” narrative. This narrative reached a fever pitch when everyone thought the deals were all fully guaranteed without giving the FO the benefit of the doubt. Even now, the assumption is that Kemba fell into our lap. Is it possible that WWW’s value is in getting inside info based on his vast rolodex of connections. throughout the NBA universe? I don’t know, but I will at least allow for the possibility.

  205. FVV is a better case than Siakim but even he played 37 games for the raptors for a total of 300 min. He only played 16 games for the g-league squad (they play about 50 games a season for reference) albeit totaling 500 min.

    Of course, FVV was an undrafted FA so sending him to the g-league is expected.

  206. GoNyGoNYGo: I was on the verge of changing my handle when I saw this. But I can’t since you jumped me on being clever.

    How are you feeling now? What kind of symptoms did you have at the worst?

  207. The fact that signing Kemba means we’re definitely out as an option for Schroder is another thing that makes me happy. I’m still a bit cautious mostly because good things like this don’t just normally fall our way, but yes, I’d much rather have Kemba and try to rehabilitate him this season than taking a gamble on any of the other possible free agents / trading major assets for other aging players. We needed another shot creator aside from Rose so much, it was the absolute most important thing for this team.

  208. Re Jalen Johnson — plays power forward, can’t shoot, went to and left 3 different high schools, then went to Duke and then ejected on that situation too. Given his high profile, there’s a 1000% chance Alex Kline, Kenny Payne, and co. know him extremely well.

    Jalen Johnson is just a proxy for who could have been picked… but trading out of that spot communicated that NO ONE past 19 was going to make it on the knicks squad.. so it’s not just Jalen Johnson.. it’s also Keon Johnson and Isaih Jackson… Josh Christopher.. Nah’Shon Hyland… et al…. take your pick…

  209. djphan: this is a serious misinterpretation and exaggeration of everything anyone has ever said…. i have no idea where you get off about me continually posting negative outcomes.. do you have anything in particular you want to talk about because you seem to think i’m being overly negative when my post history has been anything but…

    lol!!

  210. Of course, FVV was an undrafted FA so sending him to the g-league is expected.

    ok so what about Delon Wright?

  211. Ok, so we just landed a 31 yr old four time all-star PG for a bag a chips and some people are unhappy.
    Two years ago, we tried to give the same guy $140M and he said “no thanks” but now he’s coming here for a mixed bag of honey roasted peanuts and cashews. Doesn’t this mean anything?
    Kemba is the best PG we had since Marc Jackson but somehow we are talking about the 19th pick today. Why?

  212. We just have different definitions of what we call tiresome. I find your posting incredibly tiresome yet would never call for you to be banned. But hey, opinions vary.

    oh they’re just opinions? is this just another narcissistic way of not taking responsibility for what multiple people say about you? like that kind of feedback just gets brushed off as their opinion and only yours matter? is that it?

    your behavior is abhorrent… the only crime any one of us have ever committed is that we don’t talk the way you like about the knicks… it’s take a real clown to then start attacking people over that..

    but hey… that’s just my opinion… you clown yourself everyday like this on the internet and in real life so no sweat off my back… you keep doing you…

  213. My biggest problem with the “pessimists” on this board is to me they just seem to do so because it makes them look right. If you’re entire premise is if the Knicks aren’t a championship contender the front office is doing it wrong then yeah you are going to be able to gloat that you’re right. To complain that you don’t want to root for a team that just makes the playoffs and winning 45-50 games while losing in the 1st or 2nd rd is basically a waste of time than seriously why do you even root for a team if it’s only championship or bust?

    As everyone here should know Im a huge Yankees fan, if anybody should have a championship or bust mentality its me. Problem is many Yankee fans have that mentality which I hate but shit at least Yankee fans probably should feel that way but Knicks fans? I dont care that the Yankees havent won a WS since 2009, Im happy that every single year I can go into the season looking forward to watching a very good team that will be in the playoffs. I’ve been dreaming of the day I can say that about the Knicks and it looks like I can finally start thinking that way which Im thrilled about. Of course I want them to take the next step and become legit championship contenders but considering what we’ve had to watch for the last 20 years becoming solid playoff contenders is a pleasant 1st step.

  214. Bruno Almeida: I’m still a bit cautious mostly because good things like this don’t just normally fall our way

    This is an important point. The reason good things like this didn’t tend to fall our way is because we were a fucking clown show for two decades (which I believe is longer than your Knicks fan history, correct?) It fell our way precisely because we’re not a clown show any more. Kemba could have picked any team in the league to hook up with. Does anyone really think that Kemba would have chosen to come to the Knicks if they were coming off of a 23-win season and just fired another coach? Does winning more games than anyone in the universe predicted (except swifty, bless your heart!) and employing the reigning coach of the year have anything to do with his decision? Might other waived vets follow suit if they see an opportunity to join a winner?

    There’s finally reason to expect that “lucky breaks” coming our way will no longer be “not normal.”

  215. Where does the line begin for admitting that this organization is competent and has earned our trust?

  216. Hey Bruno, if there’s only one place for a portuguese speaking poster, i’ll stop. I miss your posts very much, as i agreed with most of it.

  217. djphan: but hey… that’s just my opinion… you clown yourself everyday like this on the internet and in real life so no sweat off my back… you keep doing you…

    thanks for the permission, you’re so magnanimous! And thanks again for your insights into what I do in real life. The’yre about as valuable and accurate as your draft takes.

  218. Max: And I’m adding myself to Count and Geo: thanks to DJPhan and TNFH for everything you do about the draft, your work is indispensable.

    Yeah, that’s it. Thanks DJ and TNFH, i love to read your views about the draft.
    And, Max, looks like Schroder is still standing? Is there still a pair available for him to dance? :D

  219. On a wider note, I was writing a post days ago on the subject that Lowe and Pelton hit on their podcast.

    Aside from a Superfriend connection, free agency is less and less the way to go big game hunting,
    many of the best players will extend and avoid free agency (Curry just did it, next in line Lavine), decline options and re-sign to get a longer/more lucrative contract, or simply re-sign with the original team.

    So the cap space mantra is losing shine, while assets accumulation (so that you don’t need to gut your team in the trade) is gaining weight.
    On this front this is a good offseason (I’m talking results, not process, that’s another matter).

    This is, at minimum, a deep team, with youngsters, draft picks and maneageble contracts (how good is discussion for later on), all of which can be mixed in a trade to get someone while retaining a decent team base.

    I still think the FO made some questionable moves, but they made some good ones and almost always is better be lucky than good.

    This season will be a fight just to get to the playoffs, but we’re better today than we were yesterday and I’m waiting the schedule to start thinking about the over/under.

  220. Chris Roberts
    @ChrisRobertsNBA
    After mulling the decision for weeks, Washington Wizards All-Star guard Bradley Beal is planning to request a trade, per sources.
    1:57 PM · Aug 4, 2021

    Do we have enough assets to get this done now?

  221. cybersoze:
    And, Max, looks like Schroder is still standing? Is there still a pair available for him to dance? :D

    :-)

    Last rumor I heard he’s still searching for a 25M/Year contract.
    That he’s so far from understanding his place in the NBA world shows why I wouldn’t touch him with a 10-feet pole…

  222. Ryan McDonough
    @McDNBA
    Kemba Walker will sign a 2 year contract with the Knicks in the $8-9 million range, per league sources.

    New York also has Team Options for the final seasons on the Alec Burks, Nerlens Noel and Derrick Rose contracts (in addition to Evan Fournier’s, as was previously reported)

    Team options for the final year of all the contracts. Management is looking better every few hours. lol

  223. swiftandabundant: “The Celtics essentially traded a 1st round pick, two 2nd round picks, and took on Al Horford’s contract for Kemba Walker and Evan Fournier to walk to the Knicks for cap space

    This is all i need to grade the offseason: A minus

  224. My biggest problem with the “pessimists” on this board is to me they just seem to do so because it makes them look right.

    The simplest solution is to just debate people over what they say, not over the motives that you assign them, which will often not even be accurate. Basically, for everyone, don’t ascribe motivations to other people for saying what they’re saying and everything will be much nicer.

  225. Brian Cronin: The simplest solution is to just debate people over what they say, not over the motives that you assign them, which will often not even be accurate. Basically, for everyone, don’t ascribe motivations to other people for saying what they’re saying and everything will be much nicer.

    Wise words, master Brian.

  226. thanks for the permission, you’re so magnanimous! And thanks again for your insights into what I do in real life. The’yre about as valuable and accurate as your draft takes.

    unlike what you do in real life… some people appreciate it… but maybe you go on trying to convince others otherwise… it’s going real good for you…. you can also go back to my 2015..2016…2017.. 2018..2019.. board and pick out all the things wrong with those… your analysis would be appreciated…

    i should ask… what positive contribution have you made to this community other than tone policing everyone? which i think only strat.. swifty and frank are liking at this point.. but i guess that’s positive!

  227. djphan: i should ask… what positive contribution have you made to this community other than tone policing everyone?

    I think the consensus on the board is that we both contribute positively and that our feud is tedious.

  228. DudeInKnicksTown:
    Chris Roberts
    @ChrisRobertsNBA
    After mulling the decision for weeks, Washington Wizards All-Star guard Bradley Beal is planning to request a trade, per sources.
    1:57 PM · Aug 4, 2021

    Do we have enough assets to get this done now?

    I’m not backing up the Brinks truck for Bradley Beal.

    Dame, probably.

  229. Hmmm…who does that sound like?

    I don’t know Z-Man, who does it sound like? Please name a single conspiracy theory I have ever espoused. You say I do it all the time, so it should be easy for you to think of one.

  230. Very wise words indeed from BC, but impossible. The internet is almost entirely anonymous and so people don’t have the typical social cues to know how to react and socialize, and so they have to adjust accordingly, and the way they do that is through shorthand heuristics. An entire nomenclature, almost an entire ideology, has grown up as part of this process. It’s become essentially the mental hotwiring of the two American political tribes, for example. Any time a left-triber interacts with someone now, they’re simply seeing if the person can be classified as a “TRUMPIST!” or a “RACIST!” The right-tribe has their heuristics, too, though I’m less familiar with them.

    Looks like the same thing going on here. I’m somehow a “pessimist,” notwithstanding all the real-time missives I posted during and live from the Garden during playoff time.

    The internet is a vehicle for base tribalism, full stop. Sometimes that can be managed — Knickerblogger. Many times it cannot be — pretty much everything else.

  231. My biggest problem with the “pessimists” on this board is to me they just seem to do so because it makes them look right. If you’re entire premise is if the Knicks aren’t a championship contender the front office is doing it wrong then yeah you are going to be able to gloat that you’re right.

    i think i’m the progenitor of the argument… championships aren’t the only thing that matter… on this board.. i don’t like starphucing… but we’ve also had this argument about the mediocrity treadmill… of which it’s long been established that this approach isn’t ideal… it’s an approach.. but it leads you down the road to the same mediocre results….

    but maybe this is different…. we’ll see… but there are arguments laid out that it is… and i find those pretty convincing… and i think if you think differently you should say why also… not just because you don’t like what i have to say.. but why you believe you do… i’m curious about it just like we all are…

    but no one’s going to buy any pure appeal to emotion… which is i think the optimists are leaning too much on… but that’s kind of what the last few years have been about…

  232. I think the consensus on the board is that we both contribute positively and that our feud is tedious.

    no i think there’s a growing concern with your contributions on this board being overwhelmingly negative…. but please do not take my word for it please peruse this thread at your leisure and maybe reality will finally smack you across the face if you have any self awareness at all….

  233. DJ,

    All the players you’re mentioning did play in the g-league but they didn’t play in the g-league much. It wouldn’t really be fair to say they developed there so much as stayed warm. Even then the Raptors found a large number of games to play them in. Even then the Raptors weren’t rostering 4 rookies a year.

    It’s fair to say not many teams play draftees or rookie FAs in the g-league and when they do they still find them NBA minutes.

    That’s quite possibly what happens to Grimes & McBride.

    But we already have McBride, IQ, Grimes, Obi & Sims to take whatever minutes aren’t eaten by vets. There aren’t enough NBA minutes to go around for our young talent even allowing for injuries.

  234. Evan “maybe, finally, a decent French Knicks player” Fournier

    What can I say? It just rolls off the tongue

  235. I also find the work of the guys who look hard at the draft to be consistently among the highest quality posting on the site – it requires a lot of research and for myself as somebody who really only follows the NBA I find it an excellent way to catch up on the prospects each year. And obviously it should go without saying, but willingness to go against the consensus view is the only way to add any value with your analysis (goes for all types of analysis to be honest) and being occasionally notably wrong is the cost of that.

    The constant completely unprompted harping on it…there’s no word for it other than trolling at this point and now it has done what trolling does which is infect yet another thread and lower the quality of discussion yet again…

  236. Championships aren’t the only thing that matter, but progressing toward a championship is the only thing that matters.

  237. That Chris Roberts account only has 227 followers pretty sure his sources dont exist

  238. Early Bird:
    Evan “maybe, finally, a decent French Knicks player” Fournier

    What can I say? It just rolls off the tongue

    Evan “Au Moins Il n’est pas Frank” Fournier.

  239. We’re not just entertainment, we’re humans.

    man, that is some serious motherfucking elephant man shit right there yo…

    a bronze medal may be the most significant moment of this olympics…

  240. thenamestsam:
    I also find the work of the guys who look hard at the draft to be consistently among the highest quality posting on the site – it requires a lot of research and for myself as somebody who really only follows the NBA I find it an excellent way to catch up on the prospects each year. And obviously it should go without saying, but willingness to go against the consensus view is the only way to add any value with your analysis (goes for all types of analysis to be honest) and being occasionally notably wrong is the cost of that.

    The constant completely unprompted harping on it…there’s no word for it other than trolling at this point and now it has done what trolling does which is infect yet another thread and lower the quality of discussion yet again…

    Yeah, it’s awesome work. And also, yeah, it’s bizarre for others who didn’t do the work to then use it as ammo in later years as if the draft is some exact science.

  241. All the players you’re mentioning did play in the g-league but they didn’t play in the g-league much.

    what makes you think they didn’t play in the gleague much? what is that relative to? other gleague players? you realize they only play 50 games and almost nobody plays the full schedule too right? you can reference other gleague players like trey burke.. or jeremy lin.. or any nba player that passed through the gleague… players go down their to stay fresh if they’re not getting time on the big squad… and that’s how toronto was using them…. and other teams too…

    with that in mind do you still think they weren’t playing in the gleague much?

  242. I think the consensus on the board is that we both contribute positively and that our feud is tedious.

    lol, this is like saying Braxton Bragg and Ulysses S. Grant both contributed positively to the Union victory…

    hint hint z-man, you ain’t ulysses

  243. If someone uses language to describe or react to what the Knicks did that I don’t like, it is my responsibility as an adult to manage how that makes me feel. Not blame them for my own discomfort. This is of course as long as it’s not verbally abusive or racist/sexist/homophobic/transphobic/about harming themselves or others.

    If I find myself reacting defensively to other people shitting on what Leon Rose is doing, it’s time to check myself. If it was the Knicks being attacked, but I feel like I was being personally attacked, it’s time to log off for a while.

  244. djphan: you can also go back to my 2015..2016…2017.. 2018..2019.. board and pick out all the things wrong with those… your analysis would be appreciated…

    Our feud began with your 2020 board. You were condescending towards my takes on IQ, particularly with my defending the pick based on some synergy-based analysis, which in retrospect turned out to be spot on. Yet in your mind, the jury is still out and you have nothing to learn from that experience. Which is pretty clear in your ranking 3 guys over Cade and the entire first round over Davion.

    This time of year lends itself to heated conversations since most takes are hard to prove. I generally don’t go out on a limb with definitive draft takes very much…Frank, Killian, and now Davion to a lesser degree…most of the time I’m calling people out when they go out on a limb and speak with a level of certainty that makes them vulnerable to eating crow down the road. I sure ate some crow about my Bargnani take, and deserved every bit of it, and learned from it.

    The current hot take is “Leon fucked up the draft so Leon will likely fuck up free agency on the way to fucking up our chance to build a sustained period of being a legit contender because the FO doesn’t know what they are doing, just like the prior FOs.” The record will show that this was the same hot take many had here last year, and those that had it shouldn’t be upset when they are reminded of how wrong they were.

    As to your draft takes, I don’t find them particularly accurate or enlightening compared to what I can derive for myself by looking at well-created scouting videos and tuning into the work of Mike Schmitz et. al. Others here finds them invaluable. As I said, opinions vary.

  245. Ulysses S. Grant

    very interesting historical figure…shows the importance of who exactly is telling/selling the story…

  246. It’s not the g-league minutes so much as the lack of NBA minutes which already promise to be scarce for the young players we do have. Each player you mentioned played nearly as many NBA minutes as g-league minutes, if not more.

  247. Z-man: The current hot take is “Leon fucked up the draft so Leon will likely fuck up free agency on the way to fucking up our chance to build a sustained period of being a legit contender because the FO doesn’t know what they are doing, just like the prior FOs.” The record will show that this was the same hot take many had here last year, and those that had it shouldn’t be upset when they are reminded of how wrong they were.

    I love how you just PRONOUNCE that that “hot take” is “wrong,” as if that’s remotely proven. Leon did fuck up the draft and he may have fucked up free agency and he hasn’t come close yet to building a legit contender.

    It really wasn’t that great a free agency period. It turned out not to be the utter and complete disaster it looked like 24-48 hours ago, but it’s nothing special. This is a team in purgatory. If all you cared about was the next year or two and making the playoffs and getting blown out in the first round, you could take any roster in the league and do that — particularly if you inherited $50M+ in cap space. It really isn’t that big a deal to go from the 31-win pace Miller team to this, especially with the completely unexpected jump from Randle. It really isn’t.

  248. Z-man: most of the time I’m calling people out when they go out on a limb and speak with a level of certainty that makes them vulnerable to eating crow down the road.

    LOL. Most people, even if they’re so inclined, wait until there’s actually crow to eat. “The language that you use makes you vulnerable to eating crow sometime three years from now and that language chaps my ass so I’m gonna break your balls incessantly about it now?”

    Come on, man. Sounds like you just can’t bear to abide people having strong opinions stated strongly about your sacred cows.

  249. The things I like most about the Kemba Walker signing:

    – It takes the ball out of Julius Randle’s hands.
    – It takes us from having one of the worst PG situations in the NBA to maybe having a top ten point guard situation.
    – Kemba Walker has worked closely with Jaylen Brown and Jayson Tatum over the past two seasons and can give RJ Barrett some insight into what makes those guys great wings in the NBA.
    – I don’t have to watch Elfrid Payton in a Knicks jersey anymore.

    If Julius Randle can reinvent himself as a finisher and can work in tandem with Rose/Walker, we have an outside chance at winning 50 games. Significant steps forward from RJ Barrett, Mitch, and Quickley could make us a real surprise.

  250. Our feud began with your 2020 board. You were condescending towards my takes on IQ, particularly with my defending the pick based on some synergy-based analysis, which in retrospect turned out to be spot on.

    So basically Z-Man is overly sensitive and desperate for online validation, and if he doesn’t get it from someone, he will spend the rest of his life trolling him like a motherfucker, to the detriment of everyone here.

    But it’s TNFH who needs to “grow the fuck up”.

  251. Z-man: I think the consensus on the board is that we both contribute positively and that our feud is tedious.

    +1,000

  252. wow – Oladipo signed for the minimum. That is brutal.

    Ouch. This makes it, though, that the Heat will have his Early Bird Rights and there might be some wink wink nudge nudge stuff going on there.

  253. I want the details of that Kemba deal! It’s gotta be a 1+1, but it’d be really, really cool if he just signed a two-year deal for no reason!

  254. cybersoze:
    Hey Bruno, if there’s only one place for a portuguese speaking poster, i’ll stop. I miss your posts very much, as i agreed with most of it.

    Absolutely not Cyber, besides we can always use the excuse that we almost speak different languages because our version of Portuguese sounds different, so you stay right where you are.

  255. Andre Drummond said on a podcast that he’s punched and elbowed teammates in the head for taking rebounds away from him. Wow.

  256. I want the details of that Kemba deal! It’s gotta be a 1+1, but it’d be really, really cool if he just signed a two-year deal for no reason!

    I know that vets on one-year contracts essentially have no-trade clauses, but does that apply to vets on 1+1 deals? Like, if Dame shakes loose at midseason and Kemba is playing well enough to be part of a package, could we include him?

  257. most of the time I’m calling people out when they go out on a limb and speak with a level of certainty that makes them vulnerable to eating crow down the road.

    no, man. most of the time you decide you hate someone. then you take something they said, twist it into something they never said, and then call them an idiot for saying it.

    You’re doing it right now. You have been going on and on about this “narrative” where people are saying this front office is as bad as previous ones.

    Who, exactly, has said that?

    And where’s my conspiracy theory, too?

    These are all just lies, man. Your ego feels slighted bc you don’t get the respect you think you deserve, and then you just make shit up and rage.

  258. If you ever find yourself about to type ‘our feud began with your 2020 board,’ stop typing.

  259. djphan: but no one’s going to buy any pure appeal to emotion… which is i think the optimists are leaning too much on… but that’s kind of what the last few years have been about…

    So DJ, I’m feeling pretty optimistic. It helps that I’m more of a results guy than a process guy, and we had a pretty weird process but a pretty decent result. I’m also a guy who’s not chip or die, although I’m definitely an ‘evolve toward a championship’ guy. I did not believe there was any way we were going to compete for a chip this coming year, and possibly (likely) the following, without a hallucinatory set of events that I won’t even blaspheme this space with. So what does that leave us with? A good team that I can get behind. We spent a few 17- and 21-win seasons talking about the stages a team needs to go through to become a real contender. The old crawl-walk-run. We were crawling (backwards) for a long time. This team actually jumped us over walk all the way to jog. I’m pretty ecstatic about that. I don’t think that’s purgatory, it’s a pretty good place and within reach of ‘run.’

  260. Our feud began with your 2020 board.

    You hold grudges that long? Yeesh. This may have something to do with why pretty much everybody has some sort of beef with you.

    So basically Z-Man is overly sensitive and desperate for online validation, and if he doesn’t get it from someone, he will spend the rest of his life trolling him like a motherfucker, to the detriment of everyone here.

    Remind me never to get on Hubert’s bad side.

  261. I know that vets on one-year contracts essentially have no-trade clauses, but does that apply to vets on 1+1 deals? Like, if Dame shakes loose at midseason and Kemba is playing well enough to be part of a package, could we include him?

    That would be hilariously cold-blooded. I think it would be allowed, yes.

  262. Aten:
    If you ever find yourself about to type ‘our feud began with your 2020 board,’ stop typing.

    Haha!

  263. We do seem to have enough assets for a big upgrade somewhere. Maybe Miles Turner as an example?

  264. Thanks, Bruno. I’ll keep posting and you promise to post one comment for each two of mine? Three?
    You try to keep up! ;D

  265. You were condescending towards my takes on IQ, particularly with my defending the pick based on some synergy-based analysis, which in retrospect turned out to be spot on.

    i’m pretty sure i wasn’t being condescending but it was terrible analysis to begin with for all the aforementioned reasons which i won’t bother repeating.. and it was terrible analysis because you can’t even explain why you turned out ‘right’ to begin with….

    most of the time I’m calling people out when they go out on a limb and speak with a level of certainty that makes them vulnerable to eating crow down the road. I sure ate some crow about my Bargnani take, and deserved every bit of it, and learned from it.

    what level of certainty do you think we’re all talking in? do you think my board is posted every year so i can throw it in people’s faces? of course not! i get things wrong all the time and i’m not afraid to be wrong… in fact it’s very interesting to have discussions where we were all wrong in hindsight.. and there’s things the public just does not have information to that teams do… they get to see them up close.. they do background checks.. it’s going to be really tough for me a casual observer to outperform any competent front office.. i can outperform the shitty ones.. that’s an interesting discussion but we can’t now cause you feel like dancing on everyone else’s mistakes from your ivory tower that you built off the stacks of draft magazines you collected over the years…

    is our crime that we have conviction? look at all these other shmoes on this board that have opinions too.. you must hate everyone at this rate.. i don’t get it.. because you got blasted in an argument doesn’t entitle you to harrass them forever and ever.. and that’s what you do… and it’s super annoying.. why the fuck do we have to deal with this?

  266. Look, as a card carrying Team Pessimist member I absolutely wish the Knicks had pursued a hard rebuild at any of the numerous opportunities they have had to do so in the past 20 years. We would have been a way better team and being a fan would have been way more enjoyable in the aggregate. And that’s factorial.

    That said, I think most members of Team Pessimist would grudgingly agree that there is a baseline level of competence being shown in the way the current FO is executing their no-tank approach. They put a decent team together that outperformed our expectations last year (maybe a bit of a fluke but still) and they look poised to compete for the 7-8 spot next year and be perfectly cromulent. Which isn’t nothing and probably will get butts in seats and ad revenue in Dolan’s pockets.

    It’s not what I would do but it’s a long way from Isaiah and PJax.

  267. Went to my 3 mile run, was a little out of shape and the last two or three runs were painful, but today i didn’t feel a thing, did a great time (for my standards, of course) and always with a smile.
    I wonder why? #KembaEffect

  268. Hubert, so you never posted anything akin to Dolan’s still calling the shots, or Mills is the source, or Thibs is going to make all the personnel decisions, or we deafted this guy on something other than merit? (These are just examples off the top of my head). Were you not doing an end-zone dance just yesterday when you thought all of those FA signings were validation of your suspicions about this FO?

    Hey JK! Glad you climbed in off the draft night ledge to weigh in! Since whe did we evolve into a community where it’s off limits to bring up someone’s posting history when they make current statements and predictions that you disagree with? Is that the new norm, that you’re not allowed to bookmark stuff?

  269. Doug Chu:
    Andre Drummond said on a podcast that he’s punched and elbowed teammates in the head for taking rebounds away from him. Wow.

    Does anyone have a subfolder of bookmarks to my posts on Drummond from 2012-13? If so, please delete.

  270. Hey JK! Glad you climbed in off the draft night ledge to weigh in! Since whe did we evolve into a community where it’s off limits to bring up someone’s posting history when they make current statements and predictions that you disagree with?

    I don’t know but you cried about it pretty good when you got called out for stanning Andrea Bargnani, which is just about the most embarrassing historical take possible.

    I thought you were the kind of dude who would talk some shit and then it’s all forgotten because we’re all friends, but apparently you hold petty grudges for very long amounts of time, which is why we seem to have arrived at this critical mass where pretty much everybody is annoyed at you.

    Lighten up, my brah.

  271. here’s the thing you vigorous baiters you…you may have something totally awesome to say or share, but, a bunch of us are going to miss it cuz we assume you’re post consists of a bunch of low key or straight up loud animus…

    as bruno so eloquently put it: life is hard enough, i got demons trying to crawl up ass ass day in and day out , i’m here to bond not battle :)

    try to be kind to one another (insert weird and freaky barney gif here)…

  272. It’ll be real interesting to see whether Kemba being here really does take the ball out of JR’s hands.

    A “years the Knicks were progressing toward a championship” historical chart would be pretty awesome. Probably every year from 1991 when they hired Riley through 2001, the year they lost at home to TO in Game 5 would probably qualify. ’08 when they hired Pringles through 14, when they traded for Bargnani and started floundering again. 14 to now is tough, would have to give it more thought; 18-19, the year before the Durant summer would probably be a yes. Now I don’t really think they are.

    It’s not remotely a function of record, let’s be clear. It’s way more a function of organizational philosophy and steps/cap space commensurate with that philosophy.

  273. 1 Preferred Schroeder but I’m absolutely fine with Kemba for peanuts!

    2 #We need Knickname for Evan Fournier asap…any thoughts?#

    EVo4

    3 Oldskool vs Hipsters “dance battle”
    Sign me up with the Zmans!

    4 Building a competent team to attract big dogs while developing our puppies is clearly the plan which seems like it’s being executed slowly but steadily.

    5 Taking Yourself Too Seriously aint serious
    Chill knicks junkies!
    We’re on the same side in here
    Have Fun Not War!

  274. Z-man, you’re sealioning now and that needs to stop. Settling old scores and reading from your KB Argument Ledger is a tough look for you. It seems like you have difficulty setting appropriate boundaries when talking about sports, given how you repeatedly interpret disagreements (loud and heated as they may be) as personal attacks, grudges, and feuds. It’s the behavior of an insecure person.

  275. I think the Beatles have a song for this…
    When I find myself in times of trouble, Master Brian comes to me
    Speaking words of wisdom, let it be
    And in my hour of darkness he is standing right in front of me
    Speaking words of wisdom, let it be…

  276. Remind me never to get on Hubert’s bad side.

    ha! to be fair, I am highly sensitive, too. Nothing wrong with that.

  277. Z-man: Hubert, so you never posted anything akin to Dolan’s still calling the shots, or Mills is the source, or Thibs is going to make all the personnel decisions, or we deafted this guy on something other than merit? (These are just examples off the top of my head).

    Dude, all those things are true. Dolan is calling the shots, in terms of philosophy at the very least; Mills is still sourcing Berman and other stories; and Thibs is a massive voice in personnel decisions. The idea that someone who says that has been “proven clearly wrong” are just the voices in your head talking.

    How in the world have you talked yourself into the idea that James Dolan — James Dolan!!! — has just stepped aside and let Leon Rose just do whatever he wants to do? (And worse, seen the fact of James Dolan stepping aside as some kind of valid criteria of Leon Rose’s competence). To win an internet argument, you’ve let yourself get talked into THAT?!?!?!? It’s mind-boggling.

  278. Alot of talk now that the East has become the tougher conference, first time you can make that argument since the 90’s?

  279. I world like to say again, that Kemba is a great pickup!

    Kemba/Rose/Deuce
    Fournier/IQ/Vildoza
    RJ/Burks/Grimes
    Randle/Obi/Knox/Simms
    Mitch/Noel/Taj/Sims

    That’s a really solid 10 & lots of ball handlers for when Kemba & Rose go down.

    Our defense takes a step back without Bullock, but the offense should be vastly improved with Kemba, Fournier, and a full year of Rose.

    I kinda want Simms to beat out Knox for backup PF.

  280. So Knox is sticking around as trade bait, right? Another team looks at his 3 point stroke and measurables and thinks they can develop him?

  281. so you never posted anything akin to Dolan’s still calling the shots, or Mills is the source, or Thibs is going to make all the personnel decisions, or we deafted this guy on something other than merit?

    Yeah, I honestly do not recall any of that.

    Were you not doing an end-zone dance just yesterday when you thought all of those FA signings were validation of your suspicions about this FO?

    I really wasn’t. I said “meh”.

    Let’s carry on, man. You’re a good dude but you have a scoreboard and no one else does. I really don’t care if I’m right or wrong. I just like talking about the Knicks.

  282. djphan: i’m pretty sure i wasn’t being condescending but it was terrible analysis to begin with for all the aforementioned reasons which i won’t bother repeating.. and it was terrible analysis because you can’t even explain why you turned out ‘right’ to begin with…

    https://hoopsprospects.com/2020/05/12/immanuel-quickley-scouting-report/

    I believe this is one of the pieces of evidence I cited that you summarily dismissed. This, along with watching numerous scouting video breakdowns, reading lots of draft analyses, and looking at box score stats, advanced stats, and synergy-style stats led me to the same post-draft conclusion that the author reached….that it was a perfectly acceptable pick at #25. It wasn’t on a whim or gut feeling. I put a lot of time into it, maybe not as much as you but lots. I don’t do that for 100 players like you do because I mainly concentrate on the lottery and the Knicks’ picks. Our entire board was blindsided by the pick. Some chose to dismiss it out of hand, while others (like me) chose to look deeply into it and give it a fair chance.

    Sure, draft boards all contain a degree of error. But they don’t all leave guys like IQ off their boards entirely, or buck the prevailing opinions of paid analysts who conclude that LaMelo is a top-3 pick (or Cade is #1 or Davion should be in the upper half of the first round.) I don’t need to do an extensive analysis to conclude that any methodology that comes to these conclusions is probably deeply flawed, and that the purveyor of that methodology should consider some very serious tweaks.

    For this year, I did enough research to conclude that Cade is a clear #1 pick and Davion should be picked in the top half of the first round. Those are two test cases for your board this year, since both are way out of alignment with the consensus of analysts.

  283. Hubert: Let’s carry on, man. You’re a good dude but you have a scoreboard and no one else does. I really don’t care if I’m right or wrong. I just like talking about the Knicks.

    Fair enough.

  284. and i take great umbrage for being on team pessimist since i caught a ton of flak for defending both randle and RJ… and it felt like i was fighting the whole board on RJ…

    the only thing i’m pessimistic about is the overall strategy of this front office… i certainly enjoyed last year just like i enjoyed the brief playoff runs we had the last decade… but we all know how this ends… and it’s not that fun when it does and the run wasn’t all that great to begin with to have to go through that…

    that’s my feeling on it and it’s not unlike what we’ve settled as a group as the mediocrity/purgatory/treadmill… that’s long been the consensus but seems like there’s a large lashback against it…

    to put it simply i don’t care much about championships.. i loved the 90s knicks… falling short is absolutely fine.. but having good teams matter.. deep playoff teams matter… i don’t hold any great affinity to the melo/chandler knicks besides linsanity.. and to my feeling this squad will be equally as forgettable.. and i don’t think anyone thinks we have a memorable squad either.. and that to me is not something to celebrate and it’s worth pointing out… that’s all…

  285. I am somewhere in the middle of a lot of the opinions being expressed here:

    -I think the drop off in immediate productivity from Noel to, say, Isaiah Jackson and/or from Burks to, say, Cam Thomas (I didn’t mean to fixate on Jalen Johnson, there were a lot of intriguing options) would be more than counterbalanced by both the immediate cap savings and the more robust investment in our future. I think we could’ve signed more impactful players with the cap savings (e.g. Lonzo Ball) while still adding to our young core. In a worst case scenario in which we couldn’t get any of those players (seems doubtful), I think the relatively minor drop off in 2021-2022 wins would’ve been worth the investment in our future.

    -I am still unsure as to the larger vision. While it’s great that the day 1 deals were all 3/2 + 1s, that still doesn’t leave us with any cap space in 2022 (we’ll have the full MLE) regardless of Kemba’s 2nd year guarantee. Assuming Randle and/or Mitch are re-signed, we also don’t project to have space for 2023. I guess the idea is we’ll be well positioned for a trade if that opportunity materializes, and while I don’t necessarily disagree, I’m a little more worried about the prospects of being able to unload Burks/Noel/Rose at the drop of a hat than the consensus.

    -Having said all of that the 2021-2022 product has the potential to be pretty exciting, and I’ve never been able to root for a team that could claim as much while also being able to claim they didn’t carpet bomb their future draft capital to get there. Despite all of my gripes, that is worth a lot to me!

    -What we do with that future draft capital will be something to watch, as if a trade doesn’t materialize we’ll be forced to actually make some picks…unless we just continue to punt on them and allow them to depreciate in value (as we don’t seem to be able to get equal value in these trades). I prefer the former, if that wasn’t clear.

  286. synergy-style stats led me to the same post-draft conclusion that the author reached

    what synergy stats project to what? how often do you think these things translate vs not? can you say with any certainty that catch and shoot jumpers in college are the same as in the pro’s? do you have any idea how synergy stats are recorded in college vs in the pro’s? what kind of sample are you dealing with these metrics?

    they were summarily dismissed for some reason… of which you never answered and then lashed out… you never answered these questions because you don’t know the answer and answering them would mean you were wrong… that’s not being condescending that’s you not engaging and getting emotional in response….

    For this year, I did enough research to conclude that Cade is a clear #1 pick and Davion should be picked in the top half of the first round. Those are two test cases for your board this year, since both are way out of alignment with the consensus of analysts.

    you spent two seconds doing research and decided that everything i did was wrong.. you probably didn’t even watch a single college game to have that conviction…

  287. Minor correction to my last post: if we actually don’t re-sign Randle, we will have cap space in 2023 assuming we decline and renounce all of the Noel/Rose/Burks options. How much exactly depends on draft pick salaries/cap holds, Mitch’s deal, and other small stuff but as best I can tell the only guaranteed contracts for 2023-2024 as of now are Fournier’s and RJ’s ~$27M cap hold, so it could definitely be a lot.

    However a scenario in which we don’t re-sign Randle seems pretty far fetched at this point.

  288. This thread makes me want to dig up the posts when I predicted ‘Melo to OKC for Enes Kanter, argued with someone that Joe Dumars was better than Toney Douglas, and gave Jim Cavan the idea to try out for the Knicks’ D-League team and write about it for ESPN. But I probably shouldn’t.

    On another note, I’m pretty excited for Kemba’s two man game with Randle. Watch this!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xe7w5Zt4YF0

  289. I’m telling you all right now, the plan is to waive Burks, Noel, Rose and anyone else I’m forgetting in order to sign all of our 2023 draft picks

    I’m really not even joking. #DoubleDraftDoubleDown

    We’re going to have 5-6 picks unless DAL somehow misses the playoffs

  290. Minor correction to my last post: if we actually don’t re-sign Randle, we will have cap space in 2023 assuming we decline and renounce all of the Noel/Rose/Burks options. How much exactly depends on draft pick salaries/cap holds, Mitch’s deal, and other small stuff but as best I can tell the only guaranteed contracts for 2023-2024 as of now are Fournier’s and RJ’s ~$27M cap hold, so it could definitely be a lot.

    It’s funny, getting the third years not guaranteed on all of the deals is obviously better than not having them guaranteed, but at the same time, it’s better only because then you are protecting yourself from the downside of that third year. It doesn’t change much of the cap math, as whether it would be 2024 or 2023, Randle and (hopefully) Mitch will already be on new contracts that they signed in 2022.

    By the way, once all of these other deals are signed, it probably does make sense to just extend Mitch now, as there is no need to have 2022 cap space anymore, so they can avoid having to let him be unrestricted. They might be able to get him to sign a slightly below market extension.

  291. Welcome home Kemba.
    Stay heathy hope you can solve our Pg miseries.

    I am happy with this hopefully he’ll take less money to play for us.

    Hope he and rose are done with their injuries.

  292. I’m excited to see Kemba in a Knicks uni. Even in his diminished capacity he is arguably the best point guard the team has had in 20+ years, so team optimism wins this argument. Having both him and Rose to man most of the minutes is a pretty big upgrade over the dreck that’s been masquerading at the position for most of this century. The front office just raised their offseason grade by a lot in my mind, although still not over the pick 19 snafu.

    This team is pretty deep with good players even without “superstars”. Hopefully Thibs notices and changes his MO to maximize this advantage. Put me down as no thank you to unloading a bunch of players and picks for Beal, I’d rather see how this roster plays out.

    I for one am not too worried about IQ, Mcbride, and or Viladoza getting minutes. It’s a long season and it’s a pretty safe assumption that both Rose and Kemba will miss significant time with injuries and/or load management. All in all a good problem to have for a change.

  293. I wonder if mitch is disgruntled bc he is still making peanuts. We could have used his cap hold to sign everyone we did and still pay him this season, right?

  294. I wonder if mitch is disgruntled bc he is still making peanuts. We could have used his cap hold to sign everyone we did and still pay him this season, right?

    Yes, they can extend him this season. They still can, though.

  295. If I can question one thing, I’d say if you know you are going to sign Fournier and Walker (or another scoring PG like Walker) it might make more sense to bring back Bullock than Burks. With Walker and Fournier, you are taking two steps back on defense for two steps forward on offense. Burks is just giving you more of what Fournier gives you but off the bench (and albeit not as good). Bullock gives you defense. This is going to be a good test of Thibs on defense.

    Oh where oh where has my underFrank gone oh where oh where can he be? There’s not need to fear…..

    (For those of you old enough to remember Underdog)

  296. yeah but an extension starts next year; he’s still going to be making $2mm now.

    What I’m wondering is if we could have renounced that final year, used his cap hold, signed everyone we did, and then given him a raise this year. Probably could have helped us get a better rate on him without any cap impact.

  297. Deeefense:

    (oh where oh where has my underFrank gone oh where oh where can he be?There’s not need to fear….. what’s next?)

    he’s in tokyo…disappearing for Team France ….check out his box score from the last game…believe he logged all of 4 minutes and maybe got a foul and a turnover or something…but he’s still on the cusp of breaking out…mais…ce n’est pas possible…because they are not giving him a chance…

  298. What I’m wondering is if we could have renounced that final year, used his cap hold, signed everyone we did, and then given him a raise this year. Probably could have helped us get a better rate on him without any cap impact.

    Ah, yeah, good call. Yep, his cap hold would have been puny. But if he signs an extension, the money’s guaranteed, so I don’t think he’ll mind waiting a year for it.

  299. If I can question one thing, I’d say if you know you are going to sign Fournier and Walker (or another scoring PG like Walker) it might make more sense to bring back Bullock than Burks.

    They might have prioritized guys willing to take only two guaranteed years. Bullock got three years guaranteed, so he might not have been an option, or at least not an option for the non-guaranteed price they were willing to pay.

  300. Unless I’m mistaken about some cap machinations, we still have the room exception. I think we’re up against the roster limit, but seems like it’d be a mistake to just not use it at all.

    Any good candidates left? Justise Winslow maybe?

  301. Winslow would be my pick, yes. Not a whole lot of good options out there. You can’t spend money on another guard, you don’t need another center and power forward is pretty much locked up, so Winslow really is the only guy who could maybe kind of offer some utility? But even there, I dunno, man, can they use the room to give out some over-market contracts to undrafted guys? I guess that’d be my choice now.

  302. They could also save it and hope that it gives them an advantage midseason when guys get bought out. Or can you not save a room exception?

  303. As for a (K)nickname for Evan Fournier, if his jumper stays as clear as a mountain spring, it’s got to be Evian.

  304. After many days from the draft and hundreds of posts about the 19th pick let me throw my 2cents to the table too

    I see it as a deep freeze minor bet which mostly depends on
    1.charlotte’s future
    2.strength of each draft
    3.pick’s trading power

    Calling this move as shit and the pick as gone seems to me as pessimistic and premature conclusion.
    Only Time will tell who won this bag of pistachios imo

  305. I’m a bit shocked,
    all of a sudden, according to Woj, it looks like LaMarcus Aldridge will come back to play…

  306. Z-Man has called me a dickhead, and I can totally live with that. But anybody who chases Bruno away and encourages TNFH and djphan not to post their draft opinions is doing a disservice to the board. (And to be litigating this stuff on the one day that everybody in the KB community is universally pleased with a transaction is just kind of sad and poopy).

  307. Winslow can be a good candidate for the room exception but he has some serious injury history and he did never develop as many believed.

    Last time I checked, still on the shelf after asking for the moon, Kelly Oubre.

    P.S. Both are lefty, ole!

  308. Jack Bauer:
    I’m excited to see Kemba in a Knicks uni. Even in his diminished capacity he is arguably the best point guard the team has had in 20+ years, so team optimism wins this argument. Having both him and Rose to man most of the minutes is a pretty big upgrade over the dreck that’s been masquerading at the position for most of this century. The front office just raised their offseason grade by a lot in my mind, although still not over the pick 19 snafu.

    This team is pretty deep with good players even without “superstars”. Hopefully Thibs notices and changes his MO to maximize this advantage. Put me down as no thank you to unloading a bunch of players and picks for Beal, I’d rather see how this roster plays out.

    I for one am not tooworried about IQ, Mcbride, and or Viladoza getting minutes. It’s a long season and it’s a pretty safe assumption that both Rose and Kemba will miss significant time with injuries and/or load management. All in all a good problem to have for a change.

    Cosign on all of this.

    One small thing: I understand the folks that would’ve preferred the team to take a flyer on 19 vs punt the pick down the road a bit. At the same time, I can understand if the team said, “ya know, the rest of the guys we targeted that , we can get them at lower picks” and decided the cost benefit of not selecting a guy they weren’t high on at #19 pick was worth what they could do w/the $ saved from trading the pick. Now, even you if can accept that and still say, “well couldn’t they’ve done better than a heavily protected future 1st”, I’d say maybe they could have. However, the fact that Charlotte cannot trade a 1 within the next few years w/out conveying the pick they owe us first is a bit of extra leverage. Not a lot, but just enough to not be insignificant considering Charlotte is an up-and-coming team that’s not a…

  309. Another piece of cap minutia is we can’t sign McBride to more than two years with either the room exception or a minimum deal. It has to come out of cap space.

    So we either have to preserve enough cap space after accounting for Kemba to sign him to the typical 4 year deal, or do something about Knox.

    Edit: waiving Vildoza is an option here too. Could maybe then re-sign Vildoza with the room? Not sure about that.

  310. I’m a bit shocked,
    all of a sudden, according to Woj, it looks like LaMarcus Aldridge will come back to play…

    He actively didn’t want to retire. His doctor was telling him he really should. If he has a new treatment, I bet he’d be thrilled to return. I bet the Nets would be glad to bring him back to platoon with Griffin.

  311. Brian Cronin: He actively didn’t want to retire. His doctor was telling him he really should. If he has a new treatment, I bet he’d be thrilled to return. I bet the Nets would be glad to bring him back to platoon with Griffin.

    Yes and I totally understand his desire to play.
    But Chris Bosh was in the same situation and despite his will nobody let him play.
    Is there really any team that is willing to risk so much?
    The blowback if something bad happen would be a disaster.

  312. However, the fact that Charlotte cannot trade a 1 within the next few years w/out conveying the pick they owe us first is a bit of extra leverage

    we’ve basically had similar leverage with the dallas picks and it hasn’t gotten us anything and there’s been scant examples of it ever happening around the league.. it’s not even something to weigh at all…

    on a more cogent topic.. does anyone have details on Kemba’s knee? i know there were words like arthritis and degenerative thrown around and there was a botched rehab.. but has anyone actually done a deep dive on this? i have to imagine someone in boston fandom has got something on it…

    on one hand i feel like it’s gonna turn out great.. there’s another that thinks we got a demarcus cousins situation where he’s both at a diminished ability and capacity to play games… if it’s the latter and thibs go thibsy on rose then we’re probably in trouble.. i don’t think we have much info on his knee but if there is please share!

  313. Yes and I totally understand his desire to play.
    But Chris Bosh was in the same situation and despite his will nobody let him play.
    Is there really any team that is willing to risk so much?
    The blowback if something bad happen would be a disaster.

    Totally different health issues, though. Bosh’s situation was literally life or death. With Aldridge, it was more that he didn’t understand what could happen. The most likely “worst case” for him was that he would pass out in the middle of a dunk (which is bad, of course, but it’s not “your heart might basically explode at any moment”). And I assume he’s gotten some treatment to allay that. Bosh, though, there was nothing anyone could do to ever say it was okay for him to play (same with Mourning).

  314. djphan: you spent two seconds doing research and decided that everything i did was wrong.. you probably didn’t even watch a single college game to have that conviction…

    See, this is at the root of our beef. You have zero idea how much film I looked at, how many articles I read, how many stat breakdowns I perused, etc. I never questioned your investment, you shouldn’t question mine. This is the intellectual snobbery I’m talking about in a nutshell. So if that’s your response, how is it possible to have a civil discussion with you?

    And even if it was true (trust me, it isn’t) it is pretty telling that a guy who doesn’t “watch the games” can be so much righter than you in evaluating whether IQ was a good pick at #25 (like not watching the games live is disqualifying…like having someone elses’s scouting reports and film breakdowns can’t serve as a proxy for watching the games. Like anyone here who says “Didin’t you watch the games?” isn’t scoffed at as an eye-test loser.) If me doing even 5 minutes of analysis yeilds a far better result than you watching every game, etc., that doesn’t speak well for your methodology.

    And for the record, I watched hours of film on Frank, on LaMelo, on Davion, on LaMelo….the good, the bad, and the ugly, not just the highlight reels (I was guilty of that in the past and learned from that mistake.) I read numerous articles and scouting reports. I listened to interviews, including those betweem the draftee and Mike Schmitz, which are less detailed than his film work but just another lens. Ever hear the expression work smarter, not harder? Try it some time.

  315. The one thing I’ll say is that the Kemba deal shows something that “team pessimism” has always banged on, which is opportunity cost. The Kemba signing is super exciting because everything about it is potentially surplus value. Here’s a player with a history of being a second tier superstar, who has shown the ability to score efficiently at high volume, who’s had injuries and struggles, but is getting paid adequately to the risk. This is the type of deal you can do when you keep flexibility up and have a good reputation around the league, which is the one thing I’ll say Rose has definitely done, no questions.

    So that’s the point, nobody on “team pessimism” was ever against deals of this type, it was just about the type of player brought in and the type of deal given. Joakim Noah on 72 million over 4 years is garbage; Kemba on a short contract with a 8 million AAV, on this team, is a completely different world. It might fail spectacularly, but that’s still a good move regardless.

  316. Wow, the Nets got nuttin’ for Dinwiddie. Yikes. Two distant second rounders.

  317. Donnie Walsh:
    Z-Man has called me a dickhead, and I can totally live with that. But anybody who chases Bruno away and encourages TNFH and djphan not to post their draft opinions is doing a disservice to the board. (And to be litigating this stuff on the one day that everybody in the KB community is universally pleased with a transaction is just kind of sad and poopy).

    This is not true (other than the dickhead part). If you want to post draft boards, post away!

  318. “If I can question one thing, I’d say if you know you are going to sign Fournier and Walker (or another scoring PG like Walker) it might make more sense to bring back Bullock than Burks. With Walker and Fournier, you are taking two steps back on defense for two steps forward on offense. Burks is just giving you more of what Fournier gives you but off the bench”

    Agree 100%. Burks seems redundant with Fournier on board, Bullock would have kept the defense more at the level it was last year. As mentioned above, maybe it was that 3rd year guarantee, which makes sense as the years and money were otherwise the same.

    At this point the defense will be a work in progress, especially on the perimeter. We’ll find out how much of a defensive mastermind Thibs really is with this roster.

  319. E, all merc’d out: Miami has a built in tax advantage on NY of around 8%, plus an additional 3% if a player wants to live in the city.On a $30M AAV contract that’s something on the order of $3M per year.

    Not exactly. It more like half that because a player pays Florida tax on the games he plays in Florida, NY tax on the games he plays in NY, Illinois tax on the games he plays in Chicago and so on. If you play on the Heat you play roughly half your games in Florida and if you play in NY you play roughly half your games there so you have to multiply your numbers by about 50%

  320. Z-man: (And to be litigating this stuff on the one day that everybody in the KB community is universally pleased with a transaction is just kind of sad and poopy).

    This is not true (other than the dickhead part).

    Sorry Z-Man, certainly the Bruno bit and that last parenthetical bit is true. Just cut it out.

  321. Knick fan not in NJ: Not exactly.It more like half that because a player pays Florida tax on the games he plays in Florida, NY tax on the games he plays in NY, Illinois tax on the games he plays in Chicago and so on. If you play on the Heat you play roughly half your games in Florida and if you play in NY you play roughly half your games there so you have to multiply your numbers by about 50%

    Exactly said the accountant in agreement

  322. See, this is at the root of our beef. You have zero idea how much film I looked at, how many articles I read, how many stat breakdowns I perused, etc. I never questioned your investment, you shouldn’t question mine. This is the intellectual snobbery I’m talking about in a nutshell. So if that’s your response, how is it possible to have a civil discussion with you?

    you’ve stated multiple times throughout the season you haven’t paid any attention to college ball and the draft then you muse on down a week before the draft and you’re now an expert saying i’m wrong and i have no idea why just that i am…

    you keep talking about results and i keep talking about process… it’s why i keep talking about the draft.. so i share what i think.. so people know what i think… i post my opinions. . i post facts.. i post random musings… i post about other people’s work.. i post about freaking instagram stories of people’s workouts… people take away what they will and hopefully we’re all better for the exchange…

    i could care less about the results.. i’m happy with mine given i’m just casual observer with no inside information despite all the failings you want to point out… these journalists with tons more info and more time than i do probably do spend a fraction of the time actually watching the games and analyzing it with any depth… a lot of teams don’t do it either! just look at our recent draft record!

    and you! with nary anything to look at in comparison.. throw stones from your ivory tower taking people to task about their results yet for whatever reason we cannot look upon yours… that’s very curious when you claim to do this so much better than people yet we have no evidence of this…

    i wonder why…

  323. djphan: we’ve basically had similar leverage with the dallas picks and it hasn’t gotten us anything and there’s been scant examples of it ever happening around the league.. it’s not even something to weigh at all…

    on a more cogent topic.. does anyone have details on Kemba’s knee? i know there were words like arthritis and degenerative thrown around and there was a botched rehab.. but has anyone actually done a deep dive on this? i have to imagine someone in boston fandom has got something on it…

    on one hand i feel like it’s gonna turn out great.. there’s another that thinks we got a demarcus cousins situation where he’s both at a diminished ability and capacity to play games… if it’s the latter and thibs go thibsy on rose then we’re probably in trouble..i don’t think we have much info on his knee but if there is please share!

    I posted this earlier, but it understandably got blown off.

    Two cartilage repairs in ca. 2015-16. Stem cell injection December 2020. The stem cell injection means the cartilage has degenerated pretty significantly to terribly. Kobe had either it or its very close cousin “platelet rich plasma” injection in 2012, Brandon Roy the same thing to get him back on the court (but it didn’t really last), a bunch of golfers and other athletes.

    My credentials: Not a doctor, but have been dealing with a bad lower back for several months. Bunch of googling and medical research review. Had platelet rich plasma treatment on it literally six days ago. The idea is to regenerate cartilage, joints, muscles rather than just medicating them, icing, all the rest. It has a decent track record, but it’s still “experimental.” Vast majority of insurance doesn’t cover it; I had to go full-on out of pocket.

    I wouldn’t have invested any more in Kemba’s knee than the Knicks did, and we should all be ready for this to be an…

  324. Donnie Walsh: (And to be litigating this stuff on the one day that everybody in the KB community is universally pleased with a transaction is just kind of sad and poopy).

    BTW, it was kind of hard for me and others to enjoy draft day when the “analysts” were shitting all over every decision the FO made. It was kind of hard to enjoy FA day when the four horsemen of the aocalypse would have blushed at some of the commentary here. So it rings a bit hollow when I get blamed for ruining the happy mood when the FO hits a HR contrary to all gloom and doom that was posted prior to the Kemba news.

  325. djphan: i could care less about the results..

    I actually care about results. If that’s what separates us, so be it.

  326. Z-Man, come on. There were tons of (what I think were) wild and in some cases idiotic takes during both, but they were takes on the events that occurred. Is what it is, emotions were involved. We’re all complaining about the “get a room” thing you have going with certain individuals that has largely taken this thread hostage and borders on infantile.

    No, I take it back. No borders on this one.

  327. Z-man: I think the consensus on the board is that we both contribute positively and that our feud is tedious.

    The feud is getting worse than tedious. Otherwise I agree with your statement above

  328. Reggie Bullock was one of my favorite players this year. He had a great season for us. And then his offensive limitations made him a liability in the playoffs. So if the goal is to not stink in the playoffs, Alec Burks is the right call.

    I’m excited about the offensive potential of this team for the first time since Jason Kidd broke down.

  329. If Kemba’s knee was even close to sound, he’d probably still be in Boston. We’re likely getting somewhat damaged goods, but hopefully he can get 1200-1500 quality minutes give or take with plenty of load management. Say 65-70 games at 20 mpg in something like a recent Lou Williams role. Anything more than that is a bonanza. Anything less is a well-considered risk.

  330. The one thing I’ll say is that the Kemba deal shows something that “team pessimism” has always banged on, which is opportunity cost. The Kemba signing is super exciting because everything about it is potentially surplus value. Here’s a player with a history of being a second tier superstar, who has shown the ability to score efficiently at high volume, who’s had injuries and struggles, but is getting paid adequately to the risk. This is the type of deal you can do when you keep flexibility up and have a good reputation around the league, which is the one thing I’ll say Rose has definitely done, no questions.

    So that’s the point, nobody on “team pessimism” was ever against deals of this type, it was just about the type of player brought in and the type of deal given. Joakim Noah on 72 million over 4 years is garbage; Kemba on a short contract with a 8 million AAV, on this team, is a completely different world. It might fail spectacularly, but that’s still a good move regardless.

    Bruno hitting the nail on the head. Wouldn’t have touched Walker on the Boston deal, but to have a player of his calibre fall into our laps for cheap is big a win. I think when you look at the off-season as a whole now, it looks a lot better. We have effectively “upgraded” Elf and Bullock with Walker and Fournier. It’s not a big win, but a win nevertheless.

  331. BTW, it was kind of hard for me and others to enjoy draft day when the “analysts” were shitting all over every decision the FO made.

    yea nobody was attacking anybody in those threads.. whatever was said was said about the situation… that is more than in bounds for any discussion here… we shouldn’t have to walk on eggshells just because people cannot take criticism of the front office…

    you..otoh.. are attacking people directly which hijacks threads… i’ve tried to avoid it my whole time posting here yet you sir .. even with my exchanges with ted nelson weren’t this bad… have taken the cake… and it’s worth it to call you out cause if it doesn’t then it keeps happening… i probably should have went further the first time demanding your banning with all the harm you’ve caused since…

    it was like that with months with me.. and with bruno and with hubert… with tnfh … none of us had issues with mostly anyone else in our years of posting here.. yet why the fuck does it keep coming up with you recently?

    do you question that? or this self awareness thing wooshing you this hard just like everything else?

  332. I don’t think there’s a rule against waiving Luca and re-signing him with the room exception. We could tack on another $1M or $2M even.

    Kemba may also let a couple $100K or so slide to sign Deuce at a number that’s technically not the minimum.

  333. maybe leon and wes are just those kind of dudes whom continually luck up in life…

    this is a solid squad to root and cheer for:
    Kemba/Rose/Deuce
    Fournier/IQ/Vildoza
    RJ/Burks/Grimes
    Randle/Obi/Knox/Simms
    Mitch/Noel/Taj/Sims

    hopefully they’re excited too and working hard on prepping for next season…heck, i’m looking forward to summer league – just to see how many shots kevin can get up in a game…not so bold prediction, keving averages at least 20 a game during summer league…

    was hoping to see quik playing the point, but, will be interested to watch deuce do his thing too…kinda bummed now they won’t hit the court til sunday…

    oh yeah, before i forget – i’m digging this nickname:
    As for a (K)nickname for Evan Fournier, if his jumper stays as clear as a mountain spring, it’s got to be Evian.

    nice rama…

  334. And DJ, you have to let it go. Seriously, dude. This is not a thread with two people on it.

    Can’t believe I have to type this stuff. Wish I could just send you both to your rooms. With no internet.

  335. djphan: yea nobody was attacking anybody in those threads.. whatever was said was said about the situation… that is more than in bounds for any discussion here… we shouldn’t have to walk on eggshells just because people cannot take criticism of the front office…

    you..otoh.. are attacking people directly which hijacks threads… i’ve tried to avoid it my whole time posting here yet you sir .. even with my exchanges with ted nelson weren’t this bad… have taken the cake… and it’s worth it to call you out cause if it doesn’t then it keeps happening… i probably should have went further the first timedemanding your banning with all the harm you’ve caused since…

    it was like that with months with me.. and with bruno and with hubert… with tnfh … none of us had issues with mostly anyone else in our years of posting here.. yet why the fuck does it keep coming up with you recently?

    do you question that? or this self awareness thing wooshing you this hard just like everything else?

    yawn moving right along…

  336. Honestly i disagree on the Burks – Bullock thing. I’d rather keep Burks. For long stretches last season we relied absolutely on Randle, and then Rose and Burks to create any type of efficient offense, and in the playoffs Randle showed he wasn’t the most reliable possible shot creator as defenses went harder against him. It’s nice to have a player like Bullock who can defend and shoot stationary 3s, but this team was starving still for shot creation and now we have 5 guys who can legitimately, in different ways, provide it, with Randle, Kemba, Fournier, Rose and Burks.

    I’ve come to the realization that one of the understated changes to the NBA hierarchy has been on the shot creation department. I’m convinced you can’t succeed in this game anymore without multiple guys on a roster who can do it, because defenses have gotten too smart and too accustomed to switching and helping. We saw it with Atlanta and Milwaukee, where Middleton and Holiday coming up huge gave the Bucks the edge over the Hawks depending on Trae to do it all with a hampered Bogdanovic. We’ve seen it with Portland and Denver struggling even though their one superstar guy is a no questions asked mega superstar, the same with the Nets post Harden and Irving injuries and the Lakers after AD went down, we’ve seen it with the Jazz when Mitchell just couldn’t do it against a more balanced team in the Clippers.

    Do I think Randle, Fournier, Rose, Kemba and Burks are an elite group that will lead to us contending on that front? No, I don’t. But they might give us enough variety, and depending on Walker’s health and ability it might even work better than expected.

  337. Raven:
    And DJ, you have to let it go. Seriously, dude. This is not a thread with two people on it.

    Can’t believe I have to type this stuff. Wish I could just send you both to your rooms. With no internet.

    I’ll let it go, Raven.

  338. Two cartilage repairs in ca. 2015-16. Stem cell injection December 2020. The stem cell injection means the cartilage has degenerated pretty significantly to terribly. Kobe had either it or its very close cousin “platelet rich plasma” injection in 2012, Brandon Roy the same thing to get him back on the court (but it didn’t really last), a bunch of golfers and other athletes.

    My credentials: Not a doctor, but have been dealing with a bad lower back for several months. Bunch of googling and medical research review. Had platelet rich plasma treatment on it literally six days ago. The idea is to regenerate cartilage, joints, muscles rather than just medicating them, icing, all the rest. It has a decent track record, but it’s still “experimental.” Vast majority of insurance doesn’t cover it; I had to go full-on out of pocket.

    thanks E for that… sounds pretty bad.. as i understand this is a pain issue with the meniscus? is it similar to dwyane wade’s knee issue where he was able to manage the pain? long term doesn’t sound good especially after his career but we could look to wade as an example depending at what stage kemba is at…

    some more info on the knee and some drama around the rehab…

    https://www.masslive.com/celtics/2021/06/celtics-concerns-with-kemba-walker-started-due-to-lack-of-knee-rehab-ahead-of-nba-bubble-report.html

  339. Can’t believe I have to type this stuff. Wish I could just send you both to your rooms. With no internet.

    stop it – you just had me bursting out loudly laughing…

    reminds me of one of my popo’s sayings (he was this cajun who was a really sharp pipe fitter, worked on the panama canal for a while) and ma’s dad…i heard it from her: don’t show your ass in public…and, there it is…

  340. Hubert:
    Reggie Bullock was one of my favorite players this year. He had a great season for us. And then his offensive limitations made him a liability in the playoffs. So if the goal is to not stink in the playoffs, Alec Burks is the right call.

    I’m excited about the offensive potential of this team for the first time since Jason Kidd broke down.

    I agree re: Bullock vs Burks. Reggie had a nice season, but Burks had some huge 4th quarters for us. And a lot of it with drives to the hoop and contested mid range shots, which Bullock isn’t really capable of.

  341. One thing about Bob Neptune that made me want to stand up for him: we were in the middle of a pandemic. People aren’t always their best selves, you know. Bob was a dick but maybe that’s how he was coping with the anxiety of feeling the grim reaper standing outside his window. I kind of want to forgive him.

    I also want to be forgiven myself for all the times I was an insufferable prick. I’ve struggled with my mental health for a couple years now, and I know my bad days sometimes spill over to here and make people tune out.

    Z-Man just wants some love. But he’s got the problem where wanting acceptance makes him act in a way that pushes people away. I’m sure djphan and TNFH respect your passion and your positions. It’s the personal shit. You don’t know what people are going through. I want to come to the knicks blog to chill out and learn from people smarter than me. I can handle my half-baked ideas getting mocked, but if I get attacked personally on the wrong day sometimes I’m gonna get mad on the internet. I once came on here after a bad breakup and talked about I don’t even remember what and you started insulting me and then you became a proxy for my ex-gf and we fought for hours. I’m sure it’s the same with the other guys. No one wants to do that.

  342. There’s a big difference towards passing out of a double team to a guy like Bullock, or to a guy like Fournier or Burks; Bullock is only capable of taking the wide open shot if it’s there when a good defense switches and closes out on him, if that particular shot is not open it becomes a wasted possession. Fournier and Burks can at least attack the closeout and create something out of it. We can’t underrate this particular skill set.

  343. thibs got some work to do getting things back to last year’s status reference defense…gotta imagine though our offense is gonna flow way smoother…

    can’t wait to play the hawks next season…

  344. And DJ, you have to let it go. Seriously, dude. This is not a thread with two people on it.

    well if it doesn’t happen again it’s worth it for me… but i let it go last time yet here we are… and here we were during the season at this dude’s mercy where he doesn’t even think he did anything wrong or even so much as acknowledged it…

    i will take a mutual banning if it means this guy is gone… he could also change his behavior too but i doubt that will happen… so if neither happens i’m gonna cause the biggest stink ever until we get banned or he changes his behavior DRASTICALLY cause i cannot stand this guy’s attitude and i’d rather take one for the team than to have him harrass people everyday here…

    so he can choose how he wants to proceed… i’m not lying down anymore given what has happened since the first time… so if you want it stop you should call for a change in his behavior or just call for a ban of both of us…

  345. One Knick who has to be absolutely drooling over the prospect of playing with Kemba is Mitch Rob. A point guard who can penetrate and throw lobs – when was the last time we had a PG who could actually do that?

  346. I figured after reporting the tweet first this morning and BC making a new thread we’d have some nice jovial fun. But after reading an hours worth of comments and heading to the end of the thread… Damn guys, stop beating up on each other so much. Take the win for a change.

  347. I’m just glad we don’t have to hear Neptune’s takes on critical race theory and how the 2020 election was rigged

  348. **One Knick who has to be absolutely drooling over the prospect of playing with Kemba is Mitch Rob. A point guard who can penetrate and throw lobs – when was the last time we had a PG who could actually do that?**

    Mitch is about to lead the league in pts scored. You heard it here first!

    Also, having competent PGs may expose why Noel was available for $6M last year. You can’t drop passes if no one passes.

  349. There’s a big difference towards passing out of a double team to a guy like Bullock, or to a guy like Fournier or Burks; Bullock is only capable of taking the wide open shot if it’s there when a good defense switches and closes out on him, if that particular shot is not open it becomes a wasted possession. Fournier and Burks can at least attack the closeout and create something out of it. We can’t underrate this particular skill set.

    yes, this and your other posts today on the subject are spot on.

    I really liked Reggie but he was exposed in the playoffs. The old 3&D role has been phased out by modern defenses.

    Last year we were lucky if we had 3 guys on the floor together who could create. This year we should always have 4. And if we ever try Randle at the 5, we could put 5 real threats on the floor.

  350. Hey KB community! Long time lurker, first time poster. Ready to talk all things Knicks!

    I realize my timing may seem suspicious but I assure you guys I’m a die hard Knicks fan haha! Start watching in the 90s (and later educated myself on the 70s teams and Bernard King/Hubie Brown teams of the 80s) and have been living the orange and blue dream/nightmare since.

    Looking forward to what should be an exciting season. Hope Kemba’s healthy cuz we got a nice squad if he is. Big fan of a lot of the posters here so looking forward to shooting the shit!

  351. I think the Brandon Roy = Kemba Walker take is right. He has been a Top 20 player when healthy, but the knee is a constant threat.

    My hope is that Kemba and Rose splitting minutes will allow both of them to be available for at least 70 games.

  352. SoNiceWeShowItTwice: Looking forward to what should be an exciting season. Hope Kemba’s healthy cuz we got a nice squad if he is. Big fan of a lot of the posters here so looking forward to shooting the shit!

    Welcome!

  353. Welcome aboard, SoNice! You certainly picked a very cordial day to introduce yourself, didn’t you?

    I feel good right now. I still take issue with some of the decisions the FO made, but both Fournier and Kemba (if healthy) are substantial upgrades over Bullock and Elf, and particularly in areas where we were clearly deficient in both the regular season (where Julius’s ability to make circus shots concealed some of this) and the playoffs (when Julius going cold against a zone exposed our offense’s many weak spots). There should still be at least some playing time for IQ and Obi. We have the flexibility to make trades both small and large, and to play various lineup combos if this is the roster for a bit. Not a title contender by any means, but should be a fun team to watch, especially since most of the players already know the defensive scheme, while Thibs has said his big training camp goal is to install a much less primitive offense than he had time to set up last year.

  354. Gotta love Marc Berman, tweeted that the Knicks are 3rd highest favorites to win the Summer League on the betting odds.

  355. I feel pretty good right now, too. I’m not going to overlook fluffing the draft two seasons in a row, but I have to admit they put together a team I’m excited about now that we have Kemba.

  356. Welcome SoNice!!!

    Even if you are a bandwagon fan, it’ll be nice to steal some away from the Nets

  357. Welcome SoNice and congratulations on wisely waiting out the Frank Ntilikina era!

    I was talking with a friend earlier about how we should definitely win the Summer League. I mean we’ve got multiple dudes who have had good NBA playoffs performances and an Olympian (and Kevin Knox). Might have to smash those odds.

  358. thenoblefacehumper: we should definitely win the Summer League. I mean we’ve got multiple dudes who have had good NBA playoffs performances and an Olympian

    I kid you not, i was going to ask “an Olympian?? how come??”… i guess i only thought about team USA and forgot our argentinian! :P
    Can we roster Frank and have 2 Olympians? :D

  359. Welcome SoNice! :)
    And this reminds me i’m not a rookie anymore, i gotta work on my game, i’m a sophomore now! :D

  360. Gotta love Marc Berman, tweeted that the Knicks are 3rd highest favorites to win the Summer League on the betting odds.

    we have a relatively old squad which in that environment should do work… not only obi and iq who play in an nba rotation which generally doesn’t happen in summer league… but knox is an nba veteran at this point also… vildoza is 25… and the rooks aren’t exactly green age wise also…

  361. They’re third because of the worry that Knox is going to spend too much time checking out the freshman chicks.

  362. E, all merc’d out:
    They’re third because of the worry that Knox is going to spend too much time checking out the freshman chicks.

    That’s what I love about them NBA rookies, man: I get older… They stay the same age!

  363. So nice, with a handle like that there’s no doubt you are a long time fan. Welcome

  364. Thanks all! Definitely not a bandwagon fan, that’s for sure! I went through the Jamal Crawford/Marbury/Curry years to the Duhon/Nate/David Lee years to more recent Ulrich/Shved/Baker years (see what I did there) just like you guys!

    Really curious to see how Randle adjusts his game now that Kemba is here. He was our point forward all of last year but as the playoffs proved, that can only get you so far. He should, In theory, be good in PnR situations because he has good range and as Clyde says “bulldozer finesse,” but I imagine it will take some time not having the ball as much. He should be getting easier looks and hopefully having to rely less on iso situations.

    And with Kemba we have a big shot maker at the end of games. I cringed every time we were forced to watch Randle chuck a tough shot at the buzzer.

  365. Alan, I definitely chuckled. Oft used reference but that was perfect.

    SoNice, welcome!

    I kind of liked Bullock also. I liked Burks too but his impact seemed a little lumpy. Reggie’s defense didn’t slump and I feel like he deserved more credit than he got maybe for last year’s performance.

    One thing that I am very curious about is what our defense will look like next year. Fournier is not a good defender unless I have lost my vaunted ability to conduct an eye test. If Thibs can get a top 5 defense out of a team giving Evian and Kemba serious minutes I am going to be impressed.

    Also, betting on Summer League is a level of degenerate that has my respect.

  366. Someone please repost 1000 Frank comments for So Nice so he gets the real feel for the way it is here

    Didn’t even know there were betting odds on summer league – you truly do learn something new every day

  367. Hubert, as I said above, I would love to throw a few back with you.

    My uberfeminist uberDemocrat wife has a sister who went full Trump…was even in DC for the 1/6 rally (didn’t breach the Capitol to my knowledge. They were peas and carrots growing up and all during my first 20 years of my relationship/marriage but now they don’t talk to each other. Yet if I start criticizing her sister, the knives come out…”What about your degenerate brother, sister, mother, father, etc.?”

    Nearly all of us considered last year a kind of a miracle, given the expectations going into the season. Most of us were looking forward to the draft and the opening of free ageny for months, knowing we had 4 picks and oodles of cap space. Without getting to the leadup too much, from the time the trade of the 19th pick was announced to the time we found out that the contracts were all non-guaranteed in the last year, there was a nonstop barrage of negativity about the front office. Low point: this management team is as bad a Phil, Isiah, and the rest.

    Honestly, I just don’t get the need for that. As a longtime passionate Knicks fan, who finally has some hope for this team after two decades of incompetence, and who knows more than most here what it feels like to root for a perrenial contender Knicks team, even a championship team, I have a lot of emotion invested in this team. So when the brass-bashing gets gratuitous and likely premature, it’s triggering, especially when it feels eerily familiar (which is why I posted last year’s post FA thread.)

    As I’ve said, I’m fine with guarded pessimism. No one is expecting anyone to go all fanbois here. But I don’t see the need to trigger folks by spouting that more doom and gloom is to come based on what they did with a #19 and #33 pick, then you pile on before you even know the nature of the contracts handed out.When your posting suggest that being optimistic is foolish, the line between criticizing management and attacking posters becomes blurred.

  368. kuminga plays like anthony randolph and andre blatche had a kid. feel like the dubs will get a good bid for him if they end up selling.

  369. Haven’t posted since our playoffs exit, but I read daily. So grateful to all the folks here for the deep dive draft analysis.

    +1 also on the love for Bruno’s take on things. More more.

    My priority is always to develop our young guys and suffer the extra losses as a result, so I’m nervous about IQ’s minutes in all the Kemba talk. But I heartily agree with the below, and I want to watch lobs all day long ;-)

    d-mar:
    One Knick who has to be absolutely drooling over the prospect of playing with Kemba is Mitch Rob. A point guard who can penetrate and throw lobs – when was the last time we had a PG who could actually do that?

  370. I’ve got to say, the Bulls now look like they are imitating many Knicks mistakes by getting DeRozan. He doesn’t fit with Lavine, but he’s an expensive star. See this link for details:
    https://theathletic.com/2750537/2021/08/03/bulls-demar-derozan-deal-rates-as-biggest-head-scratcher-of-2021-free-agency/

    If there is a one thing I really appreciate about current Knicks management it’s that so far they have put together coherent teams where players seem to complement each other rather than duplicating skills.

  371. Well this was a fun thread to read.

    New(ish) to KB, not new to Knick Fandom. I would like to take this moment to point out that no matter what happens with Rose and Kemba this season, we win.

    If Thibs grinds them both into dust, either we swim with IQ /Vildoza/Deuce stepping up or we sink our way closer to Banchero.

    We have some kids who might improve. We have all of our picks. We have the Mavs pick which is a Kristaps or Luka injury away from the promised land. We have an all NBA player and Kemba’s home.

    We’ve come so far since the dark days of arguing about the merits of Anthony Randolph (I’ll never give up on you…) and Alexey Shved. Most of the discourse here is more intelligent than what I’ve found on Knicks reddit, twitter and other boards. I hope to continue to see debates where we can attack someone’s logic and/or premises without resorting to ad hominem attacks.

    Shalom.

  372. StarksGotEjected:

    If Thibs grinds them both into dust, either we swim with IQ /Vildoza/Deuce stepping up or we sink our way closer to Banchero.

    Your Banchero reference really had me thrilled… :-)

  373. But I don’t see the need to trigger folks by spouting that more doom and gloom is to come based on what they did with a #19 and #33 pick, then you pile on before you even know the nature of the contracts handed out.

    this is just unbelievable that you seem to believe that people can’t talk about this team in a certain way cause you don’t like the language… and you’re the sole arbiter of what’s the right and wrong way to talk about this team…

    that is some true high and mighty bullshit… and the astounding part is that you keep believing that it is some rational explanation.. that you can’t help but react to all the doomers because they’re so wrong and they make you do all these things…

    i have come across many a true asshole in my life.. and you sir may not top most of them.. but you’re hanging out in the same lounge….

  374. I’m glad that we seem to have a good relationship with OKC. They can help us a lot in the future.

  375. djphan: this is just unbelievable that you seem to believe that people can’t talk about this team in a certain way cause you don’t like the language… and you’re the sole arbiter of what’s the right and wrong way to talk about this team…

    that is some true high and mighty bullshit… and the astounding part is that you keep believing that it is some rational explanation.. that you can’t help but react to all the doomers because they’re so wrong and they make you do all these things…

    i have come across many a true asshole in my life.. and you sir may not top most of them.. but you’re hanging out in the same lounge….

    Lovely. I tried!

  376. Way back at the dawn of the internet age I remember seeing a cartoon – I think it was in the New Yorker – that showed a man typing away at a keyboard while his clearly annoyed wife looks on from the bedroom. The caption read something like “I can’t come to bed yet. Someone just said something wrong on the internet.” That cartoon came to my mind more than once when reading through today’s thread.

    That’s not a good thing.

    I’m a guy who enjoys this site more as a passive observer than an active participant. Much rather hang out in the cheap seats and enjoy the back ‘n’ forth from afar than chime in with my weak sauce takes. Kinda like following a long running series for years where you develop an affection for all the regular characters (how fitting that a TV critic is one of them!) Kinda feel like I’ve come to know most of you even though I wouldn’t know any of you from Adam if you showed up at my door. While I sometimes don’t agree with much of what is said, I like the way most of you put it into words. I even like it when the give and take gets a bit salty. Most days, this here is the most entertaining destination on the internet.

    It ain’t so entertaining, though, when folks on this site turn into that man in the New Yorker cartoon. That shit gets real tiresome real fast. If person A thinks person B “said something wrong on the internet” then offer a counterpoint and move on. If person B responds, let it go. No need for both parties to belabor their points throughout the length of a 400+ post thread. You’re harshing my buzz and of those like me who come here expecting to find high level. free flowing discourse on hoops, music, food, politics – whatever – it’s all good! Disagree vehemently – tell someone else to drink bleach – that’s all good, too! But when things get to the point where a handful turn it all into a non-stop personal pissing contest and a lurker like me is compelled to yell “STOP!” from the cheap seats, no…

  377. From a recent Athletic article here’s Evan Fournier on going to the Knicks:

    Fournier left behind the Boston Celtics for the rival Knicks, even though he said re-signing with Boston “was my priority going into the summer” because they traded for him at the deadline last season. The Celtics did not want to dip into the luxury tax, and so they let him walk. Fournier said he wanted to play for Knicks coach Tom Thibodeau, and also,“I enjoy pressure, I enjoy the spotlight.

    “They had a good season and they had a really good spot open. I thought I could help and yeah, God, it’s freaking New York,” Fournier said. “You want to be a part of something big, you want to have pressure, you want to be a guy that competes every night and I feel like New York was a great opportunity for me to live those moments.”

  378. Knick fan not in NJ:
    I’ve got to say, the Bulls now look like they are imitating many Knicks mistakes by getting DeRozan.He doesn’t fit with Lavine, but he’s an expensive star.See this link for details:
    https://theathletic.com/2750537/2021/08/03/bulls-demar-derozan-deal-rates-as-biggest-head-scratcher-of-2021-free-agency/

    If there is a one thing I really appreciate about current Knicks management it’s that so far they have put together coherent teams where players seem to complement each other rather than duplicating skills.

    I’m not as down on the Bulls as many people are, mostly because I think most people (and that includes me to a certain extent) have given up on watching the Spurs like 4 years ago. DeRozan has made a solid transition in those last couple of years into a more playmaking role, his assist numbers are all up without an increase in turnovers, and he’s still a solid .600 ish ts% guy despite the lack of a 3 point shot.

    Considering their roster, if Patrick Williams develops nicely, they could end up with a scary lineup that has scoring threats in every position, obviously considering LaVine keeps up his great efficiency from this season and Lonzo remains decent from 3. Not a contender obviously, and the timeline of the team is awkward with DeRozan and Vucevic both being over 30, but they’ll certainly be better now. They still have Markkanen and Coby White to develop or trade too so their bench might be decent, I think they are a playoff team for sure.

  379. Welcome, SoNice and StarksGotEjected. A reference game on both your usernames. You are survivors just like all of us, to have endured this many years of the Knicks.

    DudeInKnicksTown:
    I’m glad that we seem to have a good relationship with OKC. They can help us a lot in the future.

    I was reviewing our trade history with OKC and I guess Sam Presti really is the homie. There’s the Kemba buyout, the draft night trade with the 32nd for the 34th and 36th, and the Melo deal, which also netted us the pick that became Mitch.

  380. Anthony Randolph (I’ll never give up on you…)

    Neither will I. As I believe I have said a time or 12 on Knickberblogger Dot Net, there was a part of me that almost felt relieved by The Decision, because I knew that we would pivot to the DLee to Golden State trade, and I loved the idea of us getting AntRand. And, for that matter, Kelenna Azubuike seemed like a really good role player type. So, of course, the only person from that trade who wound up being useful at all for the Knicks was Rony Turiaf, who also gave us one of my favorite Seth Rosenthal gifs, which I would embed here if only Brian were to ever give me the gif-posting powers I so clearly deserve.

    I can’t quit you, Randolph! And glad to have several new(ish) posters on a day that should have been a celebration that instead somehow got derailed by the same old KB nonsense.

  381. I loved the AntRand trade at the time, for all the reasons Alan said.

    Azubuike was a great 3&D guy. AntRand was going to be what Giannis is. Did we get Jeremy Tyler in that trade too or was that a different one? Ronny Turiaf was filler.

    Next thing you know Azubuike retired for a heart condition. Randolph decided to be a 6’10” Nick Young, which isn’t impressive when you shoot more like me than like Nick Young. Turiaf is French, and only kind of sucked!!!

    Does Turiaf top our French Knick power rankings pre-Fournier?

  382. I’ve got to say, the Bulls now look like they are imitating many Knicks mistakes by getting DeRozan. He doesn’t fit with Lavine, but he’s an expensive star. See this link for details:
    https://theathletic.com/2750537/2021/08/03/bulls-demar-derozan-deal-rates-as-biggest-head-scratcher-of-2021-free-agency/

    Yeah I’m not high on the Bulls moves either. They’ve been pretty bad for like 4 or 5 years and in their desperation traded for a bunch of mid-tier stars and have virtually no draft picks (that sounds very familiar…) They might figure it out on offense because Billy Donovan is a decent enough coach but man I can’t see this team guarding anyone. And they have no bench depth.

  383. I like DeRozan, I just worry about his fit and that’s a lot of money to find out if it will work.

    He’s probably best suited to be the primary ball handler when LaVine sits, but what a bench player!!

    Maybe DeRozan has enough athleticism to make good cuts off the ball, idk

    My real question is who plays defense? Even with Ball, Caruso, and Patrick Williams (I guess???) There’s a lot of flat out bad defenders.

    Schemes can cover a lot of individual flaws and less pressure to score might help LaVine & DeRozan’s energy on defense. But Vucevic is not going to cleanup mistakes like Mitch or Noel.

    They have so much talent I wouldn’t bet against them, but there’s a lot of issues with the team to work out in the 1yr they have to convince LaVine to stay. Of course, needing to convince LaVine to stay justifies a lot of their moves.

  384. I still laugh at the fact that Nate Robinson has his number retired at the Vegas Summer League.

  385. Bruno Almeida: I’m not as down on the Bulls as many people are, mostly because I think most people (and that includes me to a certain extent) have given up on watching the Spurs like 4 years ago. DeRozan has made a solid transition in those last couple of years into a more playmaking role, his assist numbers are all up without an increase in turnovers, and he’s still a solid .600 ish ts% guy despite the lack of a 3 point shot.

    Considering their roster, if Patrick Williams develops nicely, they could end up with a scary lineup that has scoring threats in every position, obviously considering LaVine keeps up his great efficiency from this season and Lonzo remains decent from 3. Not a contender obviously, and the timeline of the team is awkward with DeRozan and Vucevic both being over 30, but they’ll certainly be better now. They still have Markkanen and Coby White to develop or trade too so their bench might be decent, I think they are a playoff team for sure.

    In general I agree, but would say more of a play-in team. It’s hard to imagine them beating out any of MIL, BKN, PHI, ATL, NYK, BOS or MIA. They seem to be in a group with IND, TOR and maybe CHA for slots in the play in, although obviously its too early to tell anything beyond BKN being the early hype faves.

  386. It ain’t so entertaining, though, when folks on this site turn into that man in the New Yorker cartoon.

    i agree with you .. i don’t like being that guy… but turning away and ignoring the problem didn’t work the first dozen or so times so here we are… if it was happening to you maybe you wouldn’t feel so aloof about it.. but for me.. it’s going to stop one way or the other… i’m not tolerating it and as soon as he targets anyone for any reason… this place will go into the toilet or things will change.. or i’ll decide it’s not worth it and leave like some others…

    but for now this place is worth it for me.. and that’s why i’m reacting the way i am…

  387. Just don’t respond to each other’s posts. It’s really not that hard. I ignore assholes on the internet all the time, every day.

  388. I won’t guarantee that Chicago will make the playoffs because the east shouldn’t be easy, but LaVine should play more after missing a lot of time with covid related stuff last season, plus they’re replacing a lot of minutes that went to guys like Garrett Temple, Satoransky etc with DeRozan, Ball and Caruso. I don’t know if it’s enough to get them to 40 wins or around that, but I see them hovering around the 7th – 8th seed for this season.

  389. They have so much talent I wouldn’t bet against them, but there’s a lot of issues with the team to work out in the 1yr they have to convince LaVine to stay. Of course, needing to convince LaVine to stay justifies a lot of their moves.

    Lavine is already staying… all these moves were with the mind that he was getting extended.. he’s indicated as much in several public comments….

    the bulls move were certainly interesting…. all the machinations of it’s a hodge podge roster and how are they going to play defense is all valid.. but they kind of created something out of almost nothing so you kind of have to give them credit for that… they gave up a ton in the vucevic deal (too much imo of course) and the other picks will hurt too.. but they have something kind of interesting to work with when they didn’t really have anything interesting going on and they were on the verge of starting over without Lavine..

    they probably should have started over… but they didn’t… and so if they’re not.. this is kind of almost the next best step and they got some of the best free agents in tow. our strategy wasn’t too different except we were shopping at walmart instead of target.. we probably shouldn’t be loading up on vets.. but we did.. and so kemba represented the best thing in the refurbished aisle… hopefully it won’t break on us.. .

  390. Just don’t respond to each other’s posts. It’s really not that hard. I ignore assholes on the internet all the time, every day.

    yea you’re a much better person than i am alan… i tried at the start of this whole ordeal.. i turned the other way even when he was targeting other people… and i didn’t say anything when he was going off on what i was saying the other day…

    but i’m not all that tolerant of assholes and that’s really going to suck for the rest of you guys .. .but i or anyone else shouldn’t have to just put up with basically one guy who’s the center of constant hostility… and usually we do something about it and so i’m asking for a change in behavior or action… and i’m going to apologize for it now and in advance.. but i’m sorry.. i’m not ok with it…

  391. I ignore assholes on the internet all the time, every day.

    quote of the day, and sure fire recipe for happy living…

  392. I won’t guarantee that Chicago will make the playoffs because the east shouldn’t be easy, but LaVine should play more after missing a lot of time with covid related stuff last season

    he really has played some inspired ball the last couple of seasons…

  393. I hope Knox enjoys these summer league minutes because they’re likely to be his last of the 2021-22 season. With our depth, his Knick career is essentially over. I think even the rookies will play over him.

    He’s probably out of the league in three years.

  394. TheOakmanCometh:
    I hope Knox enjoys these summer league minutes because they’re likely to be his last of the 2021-22 season. With our depth, his Knick career is essentially over. I think even the rookies will play over him.

    He’s probably out of the league in three years.

    Knox turns 22 next week. I’m not ready to bury the NBA career of a kid that young, but agree that it is almost certain he’s not long for our roster. OTOH, there is a full G-League season this year and maybe he can put up decent enough stats down there to become at least a neutral trade piece.

  395. If I remember correctly along with Nate Robinson I believe Renaldo Balkman was also a Knicks Summer League legend.

  396. Early Bird: Next thing you know Azubuike retired for a heart condition.

    Heart condition was Cuttino Mobley. Azubuike had torn his patellar tendon before the trade, and he never fully recovered.

  397. Ronny Turiaf was the coolest dude in the NBA. I think he was the last knick that I truly loved.

  398. I’ll tell ya z-man, I’m just trying to hold on…been struggling a bit lately with my nerves…so frustrating, it comes and just stays longer and longer each time…

    too many days in a row though on that xanax stuff starts to zombify me…so, just spending time trying to control my breathing and thoughts…

    still, it bothers me that it’s becoming more of a dominating factor in my life…

    getting better though at recognizing what triggers that reaction in me…doesn’t stop it from happening, but, at least now I’m able to figure out how it gets going…

    generally in life my attitude has been: shit happens, but you have to keep grinding and moving forward…last couple of months been involved in some disability rating review stuff which has made me acknowledge and face some of the health challenges I’ve had over the years…

    I’ve never really thought of “suffering” depression, always just framed it as being a bit melancholic…just sad, not depressed…

    I’ve come to realize a lot of little health glitches I may have, I just rename shit and kinda ignore it…life is a funny thing you know…

    sorry for dumping on you, although we’ve never met, little doubt that you’re a good listener with a big heart z-man…

  399. @ Doug

    Yep, that’s the one. Thanks! Although I mis-remembered the details and source, at least I got the essence of it right. I propose that cartoon be posted here at the outbreak of the next protracted pissing match.

  400. Thanks Doug, I seem to be misremembering my career ending injuries. Completely forgot about the Knicks getting Mobley, but remembered his injury apparently.

  401. After many years of selfeyetesting i have come to the conclusion that mostly four things can make me flip
    High temperature, pain, hunger and long sex dnps

    Welcome SoNice!

  402. awwww, thanks KfniNJ…I’m fine, shoot, one thing i’m fairly certain of is that no one gets a free ride through life…

  403. And let’s Not Forget Lack of sleep
    Remember grabbing a guy by the throat due to warlike sleeping conditions…

    Water and Walking
    That’s my advice geo for anything
    Take care man

  404. geo:

    too many days in a row though on that xanax stuff starts to zombify me…

    getting better though at recognizing what triggers that reaction in me… doesn’t stop it from happening, but, at least now I’m able to figure out how it gets going…

    Hi Geo.
    I had a full, hard bout with depression many years ago, and then a little skirmish (or more a deep dive in melancholy) with it later.
    Depression is a subtle, slimy, son of a bitch.
    I totally get the Xanax feeling, I remember it way too well.
    But the moment you recognize that you’re zombifying and you start to identify the triggers that pull you down,
    those are the moment you start beating that SOB.
    Just don’t give up brother, you’re too good and you’re gonna kick that SOB ass.

  405. BernieEarnie: I now like the make-up of this team. If we can turn

    Deeefense: You can always do something to create space, but then you don’t have Knox to continue developing, trade, or use for space for someone else you like even better at the price than some role player in the dra

    GoNyGoNYGo: Knox is trade bait for a rebuilding team. Look for a lone star with a big deal on a lousy team. Leon’s already working the phones. This is far from done.

    Doug Chu: So Knox is sticking around as trade bait, right? Another team looks at his 3 point stroke and measurables and thinks they can develop him?

    Z-man: Knox turns 22 next week. I’m not ready to bury the NBA career of a kid that young, but agree that it is almost certain he’s not long for our roster. OTOH, there is a full G-League season this year and maybe he can put up decent enough stats down there to become at least a neutral trade piece.

    Knox into a draft asset, the only real blemish on the off-season will be the 19th pick future punt.

    Please, enough with this – no need to find out how many bricks are inside Fort Knox. He will surely have negative trade value for the next few months, after which he will be an UFA with negative NBA value (if we don’t cut or stretch him sooner).

    As for Fournier’s Knickname, how about ‘Van Baker? Too literal?

  406. I have had a hard battle with anxiety going on for years now. It has reared its head hard the past couple months. It gets to the point sometimes where I can’t leave the house or have to stop what I’m doing and leave where I am. It makes anything that’s stressful pretty much impossible to do. The worst part is I know it’s all in my head but I can’t make it go away completely. Meditation has helped a lot in dealing with it.

    Good luck with your situation Geo.

  407. pretty impressive performance from Kevin Durant in Tokyo. I suppose we should be grateful for him representing us. He’s such a hard guy to root for, though.

  408. Renaldo Balkman is in my Can’t Quit Him HOF, although strangling someone on a court in the Philippines was a ding on his value. I loved watching him play.

    I can’t believe the US had to rally from a 15 point deficit to win but good for them. Jrue was a useful addition to the Olympic team also it seems.

  409. Is it possible that we have both a top 10 offense and top 10 defense next year?

    The only thing we are missing is a wing defender — someone in the Torrey Craig mode.
    Honestly, bringing Frank back on something between minimum and taxpayer MLE might be reasonable…
    Knows the system, and clearly Thibs does believe in his defense (if not his offense at all).
    But as a defensive specialist, he fits.

    It is crazy how much talent is on this team compared with a couple years ago.
    Kemba, D-Rose, Barrett, Fournier, Randle, Mitch, IQ, Toppin, Burks, Noel — that’s the 10 man rotation most likely. Most of these guys are signed through next season, with the notable exceptions of Randle and Mitch.

    Still have the rookies, Vildoza, Taj, plus a very large surplus of picks going forward (+2 first round picks, +6 second round picks).

    I wish we had more info on what is going on with Mitch and his foot.

  410. WOW

    Randle takes the extension that we were all hoping he would. Leon Rose is a FREAKING JEDI MASTER.

  411. YOU GUYS.

    Here are the details on the Randle extension, per Woj. It is an utterly reasonable figure, even if he regresses a bit this season, owing both to the team having more ballhandlers and to the odds of some of those circus shots not going in.

    Now how does everybody feel about the offseason?

  412. I don’t think i’ve said this before, so… Welcome StarksGotEjected! ;)
    You and SoNiceWeShowItTwice are the only 2021 KB rookies until now, or there’s more? Every member that signed-up only this year, please come forward. :)
    Last year guys didn’t choose the ROY because i would’ve won it easily without a doubt. That, and i’m always right. Two indisputable truths of KB. LOLOL

  413. 4YR/117M

    less than 30 per, that’s exactly what we’re waiting for once the inevitabilty of re-signing him become clear.

    Including this year is a 5YR/140 M contract, 28 per.

    With all his flaws I file this under the “good news” column.

  414. 26 year old Randle’s extension puts his AAV at $28MM/year.

    Meanwhile, 32 year old Demar Derozan has an AAV of $28.3MM

    35 year old Kyle Lowry got 3 years 90MM = 30MM AAV
    36 year old Chris Paul got 4 years 120MM

    it is crazy how good this deal is

  415. RANDLEEEEEEEEE, what a great guy! :)
    Now the offseason gets an A plus, congrats to Leon and all the FO. This will make our life much easier to get to 2023 with a lot of flexibility.

  416. Per Macri — Randle is now the 39th highest played player by AAV in the NBA. Oh yeah, he was also all-NBA 2nd team last year (ie. top 10-ish player). Even if he regresses to a top 25 player, that is still an absolute steal.

    Seriously – there’s been so much back and forth on the margins (I would classify the 19th pick fiasco as a margin fiasco). But this is an A++ offseason so far.

    Randle undermarket extension
    Kemba Walker falls in our lap
    Upgrade wing offense with Fournier
    Bring back key components of our unexpected run last year (Burks/Noel/Rose).
    Maintain future flexibility
    Add more draft picks

    Just unreal. I can’t believe this is my team.

  417. geo:
    I’ll tell ya z-man, I’m just trying to hold on…been struggling a bit lately with my nerves…so frustrating, it comes and just stays longer and longer each time…

    too many days in a row though on that xanax stuff starts to zombify me…so, just spending time trying to control my breathing and thoughts…

    still, it bothers me that it’s becoming more of a dominating factor in my life…

    getting better though at recognizing what triggers that reaction in me…doesn’t stop it from happening, but, at least now I’m able to figure out how it gets going…

    generally in life my attitude has been: shit happens, but you have to keep grinding and moving forward…last couple of months been involved in some disability rating review stuff which has made me acknowledge and face some of the health challenges I’ve had over the years…

    I’ve never really thought of “suffering” depression, always just framed it as being a bit melancholic…just sad, not depressed…

    I’ve come to realize a lot of little health glitches I may have, I just rename shit and kinda ignore it…life is a funny thing you know…

    sorry for dumping on you, although we’ve never met, little doubt that you’re a good listener with a big heart z-man…

    Thanks, geo. Reading your gentle posts is like stroking the furry wall! I hope the Knicks Summer League will bring a positive distraction to what you’re going through. I reckon with some ongoing anxiety/depression in my household and it’s gutwrenching when at its worst. After I retire I’d like to do another Western road trip, i’ll put a dot on the map whererever you are and guarantee to bring some cheer your way…maybe we can visit Phil in Montana to hear him expound on zen and the art of fleecing Dolan out of $40 million. Hang in there, good sir!

  418. Personally, these two blessings we’ve just received make the draft miscues sting more to me, not less. I mean, we were two “just take the best player available” moves away from having the perfect off-season.

    But this is our second great day in a row, and I’m happy to focus on the positive. I give the off-season an 8/10.

    Now someone wake up Brian.

  419. Fournier having a good second half for France. Luka magic may finally have run out, hard to win with Zoran Dragic as your second best player.

    Geo, you’re an absolute gem to this board, and much more importantly, seem like a stellar godfather to some young guns. It sounds like you’re navigating the situation as well as one possibly could. Keep at it, you deserve to be happy.

  420. Rule #1: no more talk about the 19th pick;
    Rule #2: BE HAPPY! We have Kemba, and we have a rising star (Top25 in the league for sure) signed for less than 30M for the next FIVE YEARS! Surreal… just be happy, pls!

  421. Was doing some internet research on Kemba’s knee and came across a Boston article on the Fournier dealings (don’t know how to post a link but it is on nesn.com written by Logan Mullen) that points to it being even worse in that when they traded for him, they dipped into the Hayward trade exemption. If they had kept the exemption intact they could have converted it into Horford’s and then Kemba’s salary. So, for example, they could make an offer for Beal without having to return $30mil of contracts to Wash.

    Not the biggest thing in the world but anything that dings Boston makes me happy for some irrational reason.

  422. Hubert:
    Personally, these two blessings we’ve just received make the draft miscues sting more to me, not less. But this is our second great day in a row, and I’m happy to focus on the positive. I give the off-season an 8/10.

    Do you say blessings as in Bless you Leon, or blessings as in “Thank you lord for bestowing upon us this good fortune to overcome my despair at Leon’s incompetence”?

    In my book, these are the predictable fruits of methodically building a winning culture. Good players want to come on the cheap and stay on the cheap. Young guys better play well or they will be benched/G-Leagued/dumped. Nothing happening right now is accidental, I think there’s enough proof in the pudding by now.

  423. I am blown away by Julius’ extension. Can he endear himself to the fans any more than he has up to this point? Wow. And super kudos to the FO for negotiating it.

    It is definitely a new dawn for our Knicks. Hopefully it will bring a championship or 7 lol

  424. by the way – if you listen to the KFS podcast, Jeremy Cohen says he had heard from multiple sources Tuesday night that something was happening with Kemba Walker and the Knicks. In that light, it seems likely they had already been working on this by the time FA opened on Monday – highly doubt this all happened suddenly on Tuesday and then the sources ran to Jeremy Cohen breathlessly. The Kendrick Nunn “I took less $ to go to the Lakers” looks a little like agent-speak in retrospect. Possible they had loosely talked contract, but most likely scenario = he got similar offers around non taxpayer MLE, and agent put out the “I took less $ to go to a winner” to make it look like his market was hotter than it was…

  425. I highly recommend this France-Slovenia game to everyone up. Our man Fournier is killing it. Luka not shooting well but doing a lot of Luka things.

    Unfortunately no 2nd half minutes for the longest tenured Knick after going 0/4 with nothing else in the box score in the first half.

  426. It is amazing that he’s trying to make it about his scoreboard again for the second day in a row. But I’mma follow Bruno’s lead and not take the bait. Enjoy.

  427. Hubert:
    Personally, these two blessings we’ve just received make the draft miscues sting more to me, not less. I mean, we were two “just take the best player available” moves away from having the perfect off-season.

    But this is our second great day in a row, and I’m happy to focus on the positive. I give the off-season an 8/10.

    Now someone wake up Brian.

    man I would hate to be your kid Hubert lol

    Kid: “Dad, I got a 98 on my test!”

    Hubert: *grumble grumble where are the other 2 points grumble grumble*

  428. Frank: man I would hate to be your kid Hubert lol

    Kid: “Dad, I got a 98 on my test!”

    Hubert: *grumble grumble where are the other 2 points grumble grumble*

    That’s exactly my dad.
    I was 16 but I still remember, after a close road victory against a strong team: “So, only 25 points today, is there something wrong?”

    :-)

  429. Randle just seems like a great dude.

    My kid absolutely loves him. Randle’s son does basketball classes at House of Sports in Westchester – my kid also does various sports there and saw Randle just sitting on the side watching. So my son and one of his teammates just wander up to him and start talking to him – he was so friendly, took pictures with them, etc.

    I think the guy is just really happy here. He’s already made $60MM in his career, now tack on another $140MM. Kudos to him for sacrificing some for the team, and kudos to Rose/Wes/Aller/Thibs and co. for creating an environment good enough that he felt comfortable doing this.

  430. Hubert:
    It is amazing that he’s trying to make it about his scoreboard again for the second day in a row. But I’mma follow Bruno’s lead and not take the bait. Enjoy.

    Honestly, I meant that as a serious post. I was curious what your interpretation of blessings was. Certainly not trying to inflame anything, sorry if you interpreted my post that way.

    And I am not suggesting that this team is a finished product, only that the plan seems to be on track. There’s still lots of future assets to burn (no pun intended) and lots of flexibility. Meaning there is still room to fuck this up short of attaining true contender status. And your 8/10 is more than fair, I don’t know if I would have rated it that high.

  431. Do you say blessings as in Bless you Leon, or blessings as in “Thank you lord for bestowing upon us this good fortune to overcome my despair at Leon’s incompetence”?

    what an incessantly small human being….

  432. we speculated about randle taking the extension much in the offseason and i thought there was a very good shot of him taking it…. seems like lavine was also taking the extension too… it was a lot of money to turn down merely to try and repeat an all-nba season which was going to be hard if some injuries heal up… but also some 3pt shooting regressing would have made it seem really really bad…

    i wouldn’t really credit rose for this… randle signing is entirely his decision just like it is for any other player and he took the conservative route…. it makes planning the 2023 offseason a little easier knowing we dont’ have a megamax to deal with tho…

  433. 2 completely unexpected wonderful developments in 2 days….
    Are we still meeting Kawhi????

  434. The end of Slovenia v. France was a wild French win. Slovenia was trailing by one point with 15 seconds left. Doncic got the ball at mid court, guarded by Batum. Doncic put Gobert in the pick & roll on the left side. Gobert blitzed. The center dove to the rim and Propelic popped up above the arc on the weak side. Doncic passed to Propelic. Batum switched onto Propelic. Propelic had a step on Batum and drove the lane. Batum recovered to BLOCK Propelic’s scoop layup to end the game.

    It was as if Slovenia ran the play that Norman Dale called at the end of Hoosiers, instead of just having Jimmy Chitwood shoot it.

  435. Randle extends! Honestly since that article he wrote in the Players Tribune, I’ve really come to respect him not just as a baller but as a man. Seems like a hard working, loyal guy that truly wants to make something happen here in New York. Good for him. Hopefully he shakes off whatever that monstars-stealing-his-talent-like-in-space-jam performance was in the playoffs.

  436. cybersoze:
    I don’t think i’ve said this before, so… Welcome StarksGotEjected! ;)
    You and SoNiceWeShowItTwice are the only 2021 KB rookies until now, or there’s more? Every member that signed-up only this year, please come forward. :)
    Last year guys didn’t choose the ROY because i would’ve won it easily without a doubt. That, and i’m always right. Two indisputable truths of KB. LOLOL

    Thank you, sir. I hope to bring hard nosed defense and 6 hard fouls for the 17 minutes I’m on the floor every night.

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