Knicks Morning News (2015.10.18)

  • [New York Daily News] Jeremy Lin was ‘open’ to Knicks return, team wasn’t, he says (Sun, 18 Oct 2015 02:41:39 GMT)

    Three years after “Linsanity” left New York and fizzled in the Western Conference, Jeremy Lin’s agent reached out to the Knicks.

  • [New York Times] Curry Nets 19 in Warriors’ Loss to Lakers in Shortened Game (Sun, 18 Oct 2015 04:51:38 GMT)

    Jordan Clarkson scored 17 points and Julius Randle had 14 to lead the Los Angeles Lakers to an 85-70 win over the Golden State Warriors on Saturday night in a preseason game that was stopped late in the third quarter due to unplayable conditions on the court.

  • [New York Times] Wizards Use Late Run to Down Bucks (Sun, 18 Oct 2015 03:39:41 GMT)

    Bradley Beal scored 18 points and Marcin Gortat added 16 to lead the Washington Wizards to a 105-101 victory over the Milwaukee Bucks in a preseason game Saturday night.

  • [New York Times] Green Lifts Heat to 105-100 Win Over Rockets (Sun, 18 Oct 2015 02:57:45 GMT)

    Gerald Green scored 21 points and Hassan Whiteside added 12 to help the Miami Heat beat the Houston Rockets 105-100 in a preseason game Saturday night.

  • [New York Times] Gay Leads Kings to 107-98 Win Over Pelicans (Sun, 18 Oct 2015 01:48:38 GMT)

    Rudy Gay scored 20 points and former Kentucky star DeMarcus Cousins added 19 to lead Sacramento to a 107-98 win over New Orleans in a preseason game Saturday night.

  • [New York Times] Kaminsky Leads Charlotte Hornets Past New York Knicks, 97-93 (Sun, 18 Oct 2015 01:36:43 GMT)

    Frank Kaminsky had 11 points and eight rebounds, and the Charlotte Hornets remained perfect in NBA preseason play after beating the previously-unbeaten New York Knicks 97-93 on Saturday night.

  • [New York Times] Vucevic Scores 18, Magic Top Brazilian Team Flamengo 90-73 (Sun, 18 Oct 2015 00:09:38 GMT)

    Nikola Vucevic scored 18 points, Shabazz Napier added 14 and the Orlando Magic took command early on the way to beating the Brazilian club Flamengo 90-73 on Saturday night as part of the NBA Global Games.

  • [New York Post] Patrick Ewing: Kristaps Porzingis may be skinny, but he can shoot (Sun, 18 Oct 2015 01:59:28 -0400)

    CHARLOTTE, N.C. — Hornets associate coach Patrick Ewing sat courtside at Time Warner Arena, watching 7-foot-3 Kristaps Porzingis shoot pregame warmup shots. One 7-foot Knicks legend watching perhaps a future…

  • [New York Post] Second-year Knick starting to find some success at NBA level (Sun, 18 Oct 2015 01:37:01 -0400)

    CHARLOTTE, N.C. — There were lots of problems last season as a rookie — so many Cleanthony Early doesn't have time to go through them all as he puts on…

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    Mike Kurylo

    Mike Kurylo is the founder and editor of KnickerBlogger.net. His book on the 2012 Knicks, "We’ll Always Have Linsanity," is on sale now. Follow him on twitter (@KnickerBlogger).

    88 thoughts to “Knicks Morning News (2015.10.18)”

    1. I want to say something about Jeremy Lin.

      Due to distance and travel inconvenience, I don’t go to many games at the Garden. But I was there at the start of Linsanity. It was his first start, right after he torched Deron Williams on a Saturday. My buddy and I were driving in and I was telling him all about this kid. It was the game against Utah and by the time the buzzer sounded, Linsanity was in full bloom. He went 10-17, 28 pts, 8 Assists and 2 steals. At least half his points were ridiculous. You could see the magic aura around the kid. Here was your basketball fair tale. He was Cinderella in blue and orange – a kid that was sleeping on a team mate’s couch was the belle of the ball. It was a great time to be a Knick fan. There was promise. There was hope. There was excitement. He had become an overnight legend – bigger than LeBron and Kobe.

      Then we lost him. And the way we lost him hurt a lot. We were spurned by a kid that became greedy. In NY, he could have been a god but that poison pill contract, well, I don’t blame Dolan. The Knicks were always getting the short end of contracts. It would have been another stupid move.

      I understand why Dolan is angry and won’t forgive. There are things that go beyond winning and this is one of those things. And I’m with Dolan. Lin shunned us, the ones that gave birth to him. Nowhere else would he be the phenomenon that he had become. And while I think he’s exactly what the Knicks need in the back court, I never want to see him in a Knicks uniform again.

    2. Well, here we go with the “to match or not to match the poison pill contract” debate again.

      I thought it was a smart business decision NOT to match. Once Linsanity was done (see: rematch with Nets) it was clear that Lin, while good value at $4-5 million and a steal at the minimum, was not worth the $60+ mill cost (including luxury tax) of the poison pill over 3 years, regardless of our cap situation. No owner/GM in his right mind (including Morey himself!) would have matched that contract (see: Candler Parsons.) The Tristian Thompson situation is similar, and Thompson is a MUCH better player than Lin. Not to mention that Lin had knee surgery, refused to suit up for the playoffs when the Knicks desperately needed a PG, and then signed a second version of the contract that essentially told the Knicks he didn’t really care whether he stayed or not.

      If he signed it just to get every last dollar for himself or his agent, it was clear that remaining a Knick meant absolutely nothing to him. Good for him! I just don’t want to hear any bullshit that he actually cared whether the Knicks matched or not. If Dolan saw it as a loyalty thing, he had every right to say “Fuck that disloyal scrub!” considering the money implications. Was it the best move in terms of Ws and Ls? We’ll never know. As I’ve said all along, following this decision with a bunch of other dumb decisions doesn’t make this one dumb.

      That said, I’d be more than happy to welcome him back on a reasonable ($3-4 mill) deal. He’s not a bad guy and would be a decent backup. I would trade Calderon for him straight up in a heartbeat.

    3. I think he’s a phony honestly. Fake humble kinda like Durant used to be. Only now KD don’t care anymore

    4. If he signed it just to get every last dollar for himself or his agent, it was clear that remaining a Knick meant absolutely nothing to him.

      No, it’s clear that whatever the Rockets were offering meant more to him than the ability to stay a Knick plus whatever the Knicks were offering him. I liked Lin, but he’s long gone, and now we have Langston Galloway.

    5. Lin did what he was supposed to do: get the best deal for himself. At the time he made his decision, he was a professional athlete looking for his first big contract while playing for a bad, dysfunctional team. He owes the Knicks nothing and the Knicks owe him nothing. He was looking for the most money, just like Carmelo did with the Knicks when he opted out of his previous contract. Like all professional athletes have done when negotiating with Dolan, who is not deserving of any favors or loyalty himself.

      It’s nobody’s fault and fans who hate him or feel sorry for him are clueless about the realities of professional sports.

    6. I think Lin (or his agent) made a huge judgement in error. I think he wanted to come back to NY. But he was so confident the Knicks were going to match he thought he could squeeze them for every last penny by using the Rockets to push the price even higher. I think he regretted it 5 minutes after the Knicks didn’t match and he’s been regretting it every day since then.

    7. I liked Lin, but he’s long gone, and now we have Langston Galloway.

      And Derrick Williams!

      #takethatMorey

    8. “Lin did what he was supposed to do: get the best deal for himself. At the time he made his decision, he was a professional athlete looking for his first big contract while playing for a bad, dysfunctional team. He owes the Knicks nothing and the Knicks owe him nothing.”

      Totally agree, except at that time the “dysfunctional” Knicks were not a “bad” team. They were a playoff team and likely to be a pretty good team if he signed. Could the Knicks have handled his situation better? Absolutely. If they really wanted him, they could have offered him a “max” deal right off the bat.

      In hindsight, the deal was a lousy one for the Rockets, even without the luxury tax. He simply wasn’t worth $8 million per, and his current deal in a player-friendly cap environment ($2 mill per for 2 years!!!) attests to that. It cost the Rockets a first round pick and a second round pick to dump him. As to loyalty, the Morey (despicably) put up a giant poster of Carmelo Anthony wearing Lin’s #7 while Lin was still on the team. The rebuilding Lakers wanted no part of him.

      Lin cleaned up while the getting was good, but how much did he cost himself by leaving NY, where he was a cult hero of epic proportions based on a few great games? In hindsight, was the guarantee of $10 million extra worth becoming a career journeyman backup nobody?

    9. I think Lin (or his agent) made a huge judgement in error. I think he wanted to come back to NY. But he was so confident the Knicks were going to match he thought he could squeeze them for every last penny by using the Rockets to push the price even higher. I think he regretted it 5 minutes after the Knicks didn’t match and he’s been regretting it every day since then.

      No evidence whatsoever to support the theory, though. Odds are ‘what we see is what we get’: Lin took the money and smiles every time he sees those extra millions in the bank. Fringe players like him can’t afford to make stupid decisions with their limited opportunities.

    10. Lin did what anyone with logic would do, parlay his good performance into a contract that would set him up for life. It was a no-brainer for him, and he would absolutely do it again.

    11. Totally agree, except at that time the “dysfunctional” Knicks were not a “bad” team. They were a playoff team and likely to be a pretty good team if he signed.

      Yes, they were dysfunctional in 2012. As they have been all throughout Dolan’s ownership. As they are today. They were a bad team in 2012 (that’s why Linsanity was a bigger-than-life phenomenon: the unknown fringe player bringing life back to the team), D’Antoni was fired shortly after Linsanity under accusations he was trying to get rid of Melo…etc., etc.

    12. “Lin did what anyone with logic would do, parlay his good performance into a contract that would set him up for life. It was a no-brainer for him, and he would absolutely do it again.”

      Lin would have been set up for life either way, unless you think $16 million is peanuts, not to mention NYC endorsement opportunities coming off Linsanity.

    13. Yea but once the fans realized that he wasnt that good, the fall from grace would have hurt, I think,with the added nugget of him being overpaid…

    14. Lin would have been set up for life either way, unless you think $16 million is peanuts, not to mention NYC endorsement opportunities coming off Linsanity.

      The days of New York’s ‘big window to the world’ opportunities are long gone. New York is no longer anything other than a circus to professional basketball players – they will play here only if the money is right. If there is more money to be made elsewhere, they will go there. Kerr went to a better team. LeBron did not even consider it. This year’s free agents ignored Phil Jackson completely and he had to settle for a mediocre center as his biggest acquisition.

      Lin did the right thing: he went with the best situation for him. Yes, he did not encounter any competitive success in Houston or LA, but his Linsanity days in New York were over even before he left. He would have failed in New York, too. Because he is a fringe player.

      Pretending that Lin is a “bad guy”, “made a mistake” or “regrets his decision” is just wishful thinking by spurned fans. All the evidence points to a professional athlete who went with the biggest contract and has since moved on with his life.

    15. “They were a bad team in 2012 (that’s why Linsanity was a bigger-than-life phenomenon: the unknown fringe player bringing life back to the team), D’Antoni was fired shortly after Linsanity under accusations he was trying to get rid of Melo…etc., etc.”

      They were so bad that they went on a great run after firing D’Antoni made the playoffs, and might have actually been competitive if they had a PG that could walk (even though Lin was medically cleared to play, he didn’t want to risk his big payday by either getting hurt or getting smoked by the great Mario Chalmers like he did when he was healthy.) Then they won 54 games the next year. They won more playoff games than the Rockets did during Lin’s tenure there, and then the Rockets demoted and then dumped Lin, humiliating him publicly before doing so. But at least they weren’t dysfunctional.

      We’ll just have to disagree on the meaning of “bad team.”

    16. “but his Linsanity days in New York were over even before he left.”

      This is simply not true. Even on this lofty site, there was outrage to the point that some swore off the Knicks and Dolan forever for allowing Jerry East to walk. He was still a very hot marketing commodity…in fact, it’s part of why Morey was so anxious to sign him, given that Yao Ming had already created an Asian following for the Rockets, both in Houston and in China.

      He definitely would have made up for at least some of the difference in salary by staying in NYC. Maybe not all of it, but definitely some.

    17. Re: Galloway — he reminds me a lot of rookie and second year Shumpert — erratic on offense (but occasionally really good) and pretty relentless on defense. Shumpert is a little bigger and more athletic, but Galloway appears to be smarter. I think that, at $500,000, he gives the Knicks 90% of what the Cavs are paying Shumpert $10 million for (plus he’s got a better attitude). There was a lot of talk here the other day about good teams needing players to “outperform their contracts.” I think that three Knicks most likely to do that this year are Galloway, Grant and O’Quinn (with honorable mention going to Early, who looks like he might have a chance at being an OK NBA player)

    18. “Yea but once the fans realized that he wasnt that good, the fall from grace would have hurt, I think,with the added nugget of him being overpaid…”

      But at the original deal (I believe around $4 million per for 3-4 years) he would not have been overpaid, at least not by much. And he couldn’t have been much worse than Felton. He definitely would have retained some cult status, especially given NY’s large Asian community.

    19. Did anyone catch the debut of Travis Trice? His passing, outside shooting, dogged defensive play really impressed me. It’s a tiny sample size but this kid is very good!

    20. This is simply not true. Even on this lofty site, there was outrage to the point that some swore off the Knicks and Dolan forever for allowing Jerry East to walk.

      Hahahaha I remember those days

    21. “Did anyone catch the debut of Travis Trice? His passing, outside shooting, dogged defensive play really impressed me. It’s a tiny sample size but this kid is very good!”

      I was at a Knicks preseason game in 1988 when a kid named John Starks impressed me. Typically, he was cut in favor of Greg Grant, only to be called up later. The rest is history.

      Could Trice be that guy? If only to hear Clyde say “trice as nice!”?

    22. “but his Linsanity days in New York were over even before he left.”

      This is simply not true. Even on this lofty site, there was outrage to the point that some swore off the Knicks and Dolan forever for allowing Jerry East to walk. He was still a very hot marketing commodity…in fact, it’s part of why Morey was so anxious to sign him, given that Yao Ming had already created an Asian following for the Rockets, both in Houston and in China.

      It’s all well documented – no need to re-write history:

      “What followed was a winning streak that reached seven games, highlighted by the Knicks defeating Kobe Bryant and the Los Angeles Lakers thanks to 38 points and seven assists from Lin. Just over a week later, against the then-defending champion Dallas Mavericks, Lin turned in a 28 point, 14 assist and five steal effort in another Knicks victory. For that entire month of February, playing in head coach Mike D’Antoni’s signature run-and-gun system that is built around the point guard, Lin averaged 20.9 points and 8.4 assists while shooting 47 percent from the field. In that month, the Knicks went 10-5

      But the wheels fell off in March. ”

      http://www.forbes.com/sites/joshbenjamin/2015/07/13/three-years-later-linsanity-is-officially-dead/

    23. I’m glad to be the straw the stirred the drink today. Let’s go Jets!
      Yeah, Jeremy Lin did what was good for Jeremy Lin’s wallet, not his career. He went from storybook hero back to virtual obscurity overnight.

    24. He looks like Starks and plays like Bibby. His poise and passing skills were only surpassed by what looked like a very nice shot! He will help this team at some point. A pure point guard with range.

    25. @23 what the heck are you talking about?? This article says nothing to indicate that Lin’s marketing attraction or value as a player was diminished before the free agency period in July. If you’re going to site something, please try to do more than pick a statement from an opinion piece out of context and then use it as evidence for accusing someone of rewriting history. It’s intellectually dishonest.

      In fact, the article says this:
      But the wheels fell off in March. Though Anthony made his return toward the end of February and Lin continued to play well, New York opened the month on a six-game losing streak and D’Antoni resigned on March 14. He was replaced by assistant Mike Woodson, whose slower isolation game forced Lin to take a back seat to Anthony and Amar’e Stoudemire in the scoring department. Lin managed to hold his own and averaged 14.6 points and 6.3 assists in March, but struggled away from the pick-and-roll and shot just 41 percent from the field before going down with a small meniscus tear and missing the rest of the season, including the playoffs. Despite that, Lin finished that regular season ranked second overall in jersey sales, ahead of even established stars in Kobe Bryant, LeBron James and even his teammate in Anthony.

    26. 1) the Knicks went to court to be able to get their waiver pickups treated like 2nd round picks (i.e., have the right to go over the cap to sign them.)

      2) they won the arbitration and then told Lin to go out and sign the best deal he can get so that they could match it.

      3) Sources said the Knicks would match anything up to $1 billion. Coach Woodson even announced Lin would be the starting point guard next year.

      4) Lin signed the best offer he could get. Dolan didn’t match. Ray Felton became the starting point guard.

      Blame Lin if you’d like. Pretend that Knick management isn’t dysfunctional if you’d like. Fans gotta do what fans gotta do.

    27. @23 what the heck are you talking about?? This article says nothing to indicate that Lin’s marketing attraction or value as a player was diminished before the free agency period in July. If you’re going to site something, please try to do more than pick a statement from an opinion piece out of context and then use it as evidence for accusing someone of rewriting history. It’s intellectually dishonest.

      The article clearly presents a realistic view of what happened to Linsanity, including an accurate timeline. It was posted in reply to your false claim that Linanity was not over before Lin left New York. It was over – but the benefits to Lin were longer-lasting, of course. Just like Michael Jordan’s career is over, but he still derives benefits from it.

      There’s nothing intellectually dishonest in presenting the facts as they are. You’re blinded by loyalty to the team being a good fan and all that, but let’s not pretend the Knicks were a good team back then, let’s not pretend Lin is a bad guy, let’s not pretend the Knicks are not a dysfunctional organization. Let’s not pretend. We can be good fans without becoming blind, without hating ex-players, without hating LeBron James and Charles Barkley.

      We can be good fans without the Polyanna attitude.

    28. I can see that you are not understanding what I am saying.

      Since you’re kinda new here, go back and read the commentary after Lin wasn’t matched. I was one of the few who said that Linsanity (in terms of him being not as good as he was playing during that stretch) was over when he got exposed first by the Nets (2/20) and then by the Heat (2/23). Right then, I realized that he wasn’t really that good.

      However, in your own words: “It was over – but the benefits to Lin were longer-lasting, of course.” You actually make my point. And by extension, Lin would possibly have reaped these “benefits” more by staying in NY, since the “aura” of Linsanity was far from over. In fact, it was actually helped by him getting hurt so that he wasn’t further exposed in the playoffs, as Landry Fields was the year before. But thanks for finally agreeing with me.

    29. Then we lost him. And the way we lost him hurt a lot. We were spurned by a kid that became greedy. In NY, he could have been a god but that poison pill contract, well, I don’t blame Dolan. The Knicks were always getting the short end of contracts. It would have been another stupid move.

      This is beyond absurd. We can, and will, argue forever about whether not matching was a good idea (I’ve always been on the “there was literally zero opportunity cost because of our cap situation, so why is this even an argument?” side of things). But to blame Jeremy Lin for “becoming greedy” because he signed his first contract (that our head coach said we would match) and set himself up for life is holding him to a different standard than we do people in all other lines of work. Ridiculous.

    30. However, in your own words: “It was over – but the benefits to Lin were longer-lasting, of course.” You actually make my point. And by extension, Lin would possibly have reaped these “benefits” more by staying in NY, since the “aura” of Linsanity was far from over.

      no – there was no guarantee that Lin would have “reaped these benefits more by staying in NY, since the aura of Linsanity was far from over’. The evidence points in a different direction: Lin had been exposed as the mediocre, limited point guard he was just a couple of weeks after his magical run. Linsanity was over before he signed with Houston – and there was every possibility he would only be vilified in NY once it became official that his run was a fluke and nothing else. So, he did the smart thing: he took the best contract available to him.

      That’s all there is to this story.

      Lin is not a bad guy. He does not regret his decision. NY is not any more alluring to any basketball professionals than any other place and the Knicks are a very dysfunctional organization.

    31. Donnie, I know you have an irrational love for Lin, and that Dolan can’t ever do anything that you would agree with. But you are not interpreting what I am saying correctly.

      Lin clearly didn’t care about staying in NY. There’s nothing wrong with that. He made the best deal for himself. Good for him. But if he or anyone else says that he had nothing to do with Dolan not matching, that is simply false. He had as much to do with it as Dolan did.

      BTW, who said that they would match Lin up to $1 Billion? A “source” told Marc Stein that “they” would. Not “I” or “We”. That sounds reliable to you?

      http://espn.go.com/newyork/nba/story/_/id/8133715/source-newyork-knicks-jeremy-lin-agrees-sign-offer-sheet-houston-rockets

      Try reading the entire article before accusing someone of revising history or of being a Dolan fanboy, especially this part:

      “While both Lin and the Knicks are hoping for a reunion, sources told ESPN The Magazine’s Chris Broussard this past weekend that if a club offers Lin a backloaded contract that pays him an eight-figure salary in the third and fourth years, as Houston has done, the Knicks could be given pause about matching the offer.

      With the new collective bargaining agreement employing a more punitive luxury tax, beginning with the 2013-14 season, the Knicks are extremely concerned about the financial ramifications of such a deal, sources said.”

      So Lin clearly knew before he signed the deal that there was a risk of NY not matching. The idea that he was blindsided by the Knicks is a joke. Please stop with the revisionist history.

    32. My take on Lin is this:
      He did what he had to do. However, it was erroneous for management to allow another team to set the market for him. People can say what they want about Melo’s contract, but he always made it clear NY was his 1st choice. Lin did nothing wrong by getting as much money as he could, but if he wanted to be a Knick he would have never signed that offer sheet. The more I think about it, I would have second guessed him returning if he did. It was D’Antoni’s system that brought the best out of him, and Pringles was gone. I’m not mad that he left, but I certainly don’t wanna hear him say things like “I was interested, but the Knicks weren’t”. It’s crazy that 3 or so years later we are still hand-wringing over Linsanity and the subsequent chain of events that followed. The story was over when he left for me, as I choose to focus on the current Knicks and speculate/dream about possible additions moving forward.

    33. Just for reference, the article I posted was written on July 6, and clearly states that the Knicks might not match even a LESS onerous contract than the one he signed. THAT WAS A WEEK BEFORE HE SIGNED THE POISON PILL DEAL!!! The following one was written on July 15:

      http://gothamist.com/2012/07/15/luxury_of_linsanity_knicks_may_ditc.php

      “Jeremy Lin, the Knicks’ breakout star, signed an offer sheet worth $25 million over three years from the Houston Rockets, which means that the Knicks have until 11:59 p.m. on Tuesday to match the deal. While Knicks coach Mike Woodson said on Thursday that Lin would “absolutely” be the team’s starting point guard (plus they signed Jason Kidd to mentor him!), last night the team made a deal to bring back point guard Raymond Felton. Dunh dunh DUNH. A source tells ESPN that Lin was caught “off-guard” by the news, “”He was very surprised. He felt the whole time that the Knicks would just match the offer.

      The offer from Houston is, according to ESPN, “worth a little more than $25 million — $5 million in the first year, $5.225 million in the second and $14.8 million in the third.” The problem for the Knicks: The Houston Chronicle explains it’ll cost them them $45 million in both salary and luxury tax in the third year. But one ESPN source said last week, “[The Knicks] will match any offer on Lin up to $1 billion,” and another source close to Lin points out that the Knicks make a lot of money off him.”

    34. Lin, Schmin…it’s ancient history.

      Trice is the future!

      Yea..after seeing Early improve far along with Williams’ surprisingly good play, I’m rooting for Trice over Thanasis if it comes down to it. I think would do well to play Grant at both guard spots. Trice’s presence would allow him to do that more often. Grant needs to be on the floor, and Galloway’s improvement is gonna make it a little more difficult to play Grant exclusively at the 1

    35. lol at Z-man rhetorically asking if we think Derrick Williams was a bad signing because he’s played okay in like four preseason games, vintage Knickerblogger right here

    36. Jowles, every bit of info is helpful, even preseason games. So far, he looks like a good low-risk, high reward gamble, that’s all I’m saying. I’m not suggesting that we offer him a max extension. You OK with that?

    37. The Knicks told Lin to set his value as an RFA. Lin signed the only offer he ever received. The Knicks were so capped out it made no sense to not match, especially because the Knicks next move was to send assets to acquire Ray Felton and the summer Lin’s contract expired they sent assets to remove Ray Felton from the roster. There’s not much else to this.

    38. Sure, it made no sense not to match. Whatever.

      Tell me, then, why did Morey make the offer in the first place?

      It’s because he thought even Dolan is not stupid enough to match it. And he was right. For once in his life, Dolan was actually smarter than Morey, who paid $25 million and two draft picks for him.

      But Dolan is really the idiot because he didn’t want to spend $60 million of his money on a guy who now, healthy and in his prime, is lucky that he found a team to offer him more than the vet’s minimum to be a backup.

    39. Lin did what he had to do, take the deal offering the most money to strike while the iron was hot, so to speak.

      The Knicks chose not to match.

      There is no right or wrong. It’s over, Move on

    40. The other day, someone noted that Knickerblogger had added a debate of Melo’s greatness to the short list of life’s inevitabilities. Today reminded us there’s yet another:

      1. Death.

      2. Taxes.

      3. Debates over Melo’s greatness.

      4. Debates over whether we should have matched the Lin offer sheet.

    41. The Lin shit doesn’t just randomly come up. It came up this time because Lin made some quotes regarding the possibility of him returning to the Knicks.

      The real blame for the Lin situation goes to Morey. It was a dubious decision on his part to grossly overpay for Lin. While I’m sure he was tickled pink at the time that his plan worked, my guess is that he is not pleased with how it ultimately worked out. Which is OK, since he makes many more smart moves than dumb ones.

    42. tl;dr

      1) Jeremy Lin should take every available dollar offered by any NBA franchise. When he’s done playing in the States, he should go to China and become the highest-paid player in CBA history. Because he can.

      2) There was no point for the Knicks to not match aside from luxury tax implications.

      3) Dolan is an idiot. He is the worst owner in the NBA and is comically inept at his job. I do not see how defending him on the Lin contract serves any productive argument to the contrary. Dolan is the worst.

    43. The Lin shit doesn’t just randomly come up. It came up this time because Lin made some quotes regarding the possibility of him returning to the Knicks.

      And will come up again the next time the Knicks play the Hornets, and/or if Lin has a great start to the season, and/or if he has a terrible start to the season, and/or if he gets hurt, and/or if he says something controversial, and/or if he is a sentient human being living on this planet.

      The Daily News quotes lit this particular fuse, but it’s still one of these debates we keep having over and over and over again, even though everyone’s position on the subject seems both strongly-articulated and intractable.

    44. There was no point for the Knicks to not match aside from luxury tax implications.

      Didn’t Dolan end up paying a similar amount of money from luxury tax for Bargs anyway?

    45. 1) Jeremy Lin should take every available dollar offered by any NBA franchise. When he’s done playing in the States, he should go to China and become the highest-paid player in CBA history. Because he can.

      Agreed. So there was no point in his being upset that the Knicks didn’t match.

      2) There was no point for the Knicks to not match aside from luxury tax implications.

      Agreed. The nerve of a guy refusing to pay $40 million extra for a scrub!

      3) Dolan is an idiot. He is the worst owner in the NBA and is comically inept at his job. I do not see how defending him on the Lin contract serves any productive argument to the contrary. Dolan is the worst.

      Despite decades of his ownership, his Knicks are still the NBA’s most valuable franchise. His Rangers are the 2nd most valuable NHL franchise, and they have been and should continue to be serious championship contenders with stable leadership. By your own cynical-ass logic in point #1 above, if making money is the bottom line, shouldn’t you be calling him a genius?

    46. Despite decades of his ownership, his Knicks are still the NBA’s most valuable franchise. His Rangers are the 2nd most valuable NHL franchise, and they have been and should continue to be serious championship contenders with stable leadership. By your own cynical-ass logic in point #1 above, if making money is the bottom line, shouldn’t you be calling him a genius?

      This is a joke, right? You don’t actually think that the Knicks’ and Rangers’ value has anything to do with Dolan instead of, you know, being in NYC. Do you think if Dolan owned the San Antonio Knicks or the Colorado Rangers they’d be so valuable?

    47. We’ll never know. The football Giants are #4, despite being more successful than the #1 Cowboys. The Mets are 5th most valuable in the national league. In any case, that’s Jowles’ measuring stick. But isn’t it interesting that nobody has criticized his ownership of the Rangers for years. Same guy, right?

      Dolan is a despicable, meddling prick with a Napoleon complex, but he’s certainly not inept when it comes to running a business and making money. And it wasn’t until he refused to pay Lin 10 times what he was worth that anyone accused him of being cheap in trying to improve the team. He’s paid countless millions on luxury tax and thrown away millions on big-name mercenary coaches and GMs. He has most recently thrown another fortune at Phil Jackson, and for now, seems to be staying out of his way. He did a first-class job of renovating the Garden. He dumped Cablevision at what seems to be the perfect time. Whatever he is, he’s not inept.

      Is he any different than George Steinbrenner was? How many titles would the Yankees have won under his ownership if there was a salary cap in baseball? Would they have won any titles in the ’90s if he wasn’t banned when he was?

    48. Agreed. The nerve of a guy refusing to pay $40 million extra for a scrub!

      This is misleading in multiple ways. First of all if you’re going to take into account his luxury tax hit when evaluating his salary, it’s only fair you do that with every other player. Second of all, and perhaps more importantly, it’s just not true to say he’s been a scrub. Since he left the Knicks his WS48 has been .091, his WP48 has been .086, and he’s averaged 15/3/6/1.5 with a 55% TS. Certainly not a world beater, but significantly better than what we’ve gotten from the point guard position in those same years.

    49. Dolan is a despicable, meddling prick with a Napoleon complex, but he’s certainly not inept when it comes to running a business and making money.

      Nobody on this site has said that Dolan is an inept businessman. At least, not on this thread.

      The point that some have made – and it’s a generally accepted one – is that Dolan has badly damaged the basketball operations during the time of his ownership.

    50. “Nobody on this site has said that Dolan is an inept businessman. At least, not on this thread.”

      From @46:
      “Dolan is an idiot. He is the worst owner in the NBA and is comically inept at his job.”

    51. Why not talk about this? I really hate it when people carp about conversations that inevitably occur on KB. It’s KB kids. Lin is part of that history(as is Melo and his greatness or lack of it) and if we don’t talk about these things periodically what should we talk about? I have a great guacamole recipe. Season’s about to start and there’ll soon be plenty of new fodder but for now I think there’s something everyone is missing on Lin so I’ll chime in.

      Basketball players thrive when put in the right situation. The right situation can be rare. For Lin it was, a lineup of him, Shump, Chandler, Novak and IDK (well researched as usual). He was free to run P&R with Tyson, prod, hold the ball, use his size, etc. Once Melo came back from injury and now he has to stand in the corner and hit three’s… not so much. Once HOU signed Hardin the same thing happened. I would have liked to see him in a situation where he got a chance to play his game long term, and obviously, being a nuthuggerfanboi, I would have loved to see it happen for NYK but that would have taken too many dominoes to fall to even get started on. Dolan should have managed his cap, and should have made an offer when he still had he chance to negotiate exclusively. Obviously something should have been done about CAA’s outsized voice on the team, etc, etc etc. That he’s a fukup is WELL documented. Z-man, I don’t blame him for not signing the poison pill but it’s his team and he let it get to that point.

    52. “This is misleading in multiple ways. First of all if you’re going to take into account his luxury tax hit when evaluating his salary, it’s only fair you do that with every other player.”

      Not true. Every move should be judged on its own merits.

      “Second of all, and perhaps more importantly, it’s just not true to say he’s been a scrub.”

      Then why is it that even in this incredibly player-friendly cap environment, the only team that would pay him even $2 million per is a team known for poor player personnel decisions? Are you telling me that not one of the analytics-friendly GMs could throw $3 million per at him? Not one contending team could take a flyer on him? It’s not like nobody could use a solid backup PG. He’s not a locker room cancer or anything like that. He’s healthy and 27 years old. He’s no longer some unknown commodity.

      But yeah, he’s not a scrub. Must be something else.

    53. Ok can we move on now to something more relevant?

      I’d like to discuss the Alan Houston signing…….

    54. @55

      From @46:
      “Dolan is an idiot. He is the worst owner in the NBA and is comically inept at his job.”

      Once again, nobody has said Dolan is a bad businessman.

      Yes, he is one of the absolute worst owners in the NBA and is comically inept at his job of owning an NBA team. Where is the discrepancy?

      Your argument that the Knicks are one of the most valuable franchises in sports does not in any way prove that Dolan is not inept as a basketball owner. He is – and you can’t really pretend otherwise. The Knicks are highly valued in spite of Dolan’s well-documented mismanagement, not because of it. Get real…

    55. Jimmy D is not the genius, his father is. CHARLES Dolan just sold Cablevision for $18 billion or whatever it was. Jimmy was born on third base and stumbled backward to second. And we’ve had courtside seats to the spectacle of the Melo trade, Anucha Brown Sanders, and Isaiah Thomas. He does seem to be letting Phil run things, and it’s one of the reasons I’m still paying attention.

    56. BTW, Derrick Williams looks like a beast. Go ahead and bookmark it Jowles. He’s in a good situation now. Not MIN or SAC. I’m tired of the “you are who you are” thing. If you know who someone is it’s because they’ve established a role. Look at CHI. They just seem to find one killing bald PF after another. Next man up. It happens in football all the time. Look at Ryan Fitzpatrick on the Jets. Back to NBA look at Zach, Jamal, Dlee, all part of deep playoff runs and earning major minutes on great teams.

      Most of the time players fail. It’s always easy to bet the field. GM’s job is to find value where no one else has found it and put people in a position to succeed and as I’ve said a million times on this blog (and people refuse to comment on it or research it, which makes me mad because I am clearly too lazy to do so) but to find the successful teams, the teams that surprise, you need to find the statistical anomalies, not the constants. That’s what makes sports exciting. When someone outplays the back of their baseball card. Look at Jake Arrieta. Man, BAL was sure stupid to get rid of him! Well they gambled on someone else and now CHI, who gambled on him, is a lock for the World Series (just kidding Z-man letsgomets).

    57. “Dolan should have managed his cap, and should have made an offer when he still had he chance to negotiate exclusively.”

      I agree, but if I recall correctly, Lin’s agent made it clear that he would likely shop around before free agency even started.

      From this Howard Beck piece:
      http://offthedribble.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/07/17/questions-abound-with-lin-in-the-balance/?_r=0

      Q. Why didn’t the Knicks simply outbid the Rockets, or lock up Lin sooner?
      A. They couldn’t. The Knicks were not permitted to give Lin an extension during the season. They had to wait for him to become a restricted free agent on July 1. Even then, they were constrained by the N.B.A.’s arcane cap rules. The most they could offer was $28.75 million over five years, or — to compare apples to apples — $16.13 million over three years. Only a rival team with cap room could give Lin the balloon payment. Again, for Lin to maximize his value, he had to play the market. Also, no contracts could be signed from July 1-10, so the Knicks had to wait while Lin tested the market.

    58. “Yes, he is one of the absolute worst owners in the NBA and is comically inept at his job of owning an NBA team. Where is the discrepancy?”

      Not sure that this occurred to you, but NBA franchises are, in fact, businesses, and an owner’s job is, in fact, being a businessman.

      He has been inept at producing NBA wins. So have 15-20 other owners. He has recently been excellent at producing NHL wins. (Go figure!) But that’s not his “job”. That’s the job of the guys he hires. He hired Isiah, and gave him free reign. It was a dumb hire, and even a dumber re-hire. Then he hired Donnie Walsh, which was a great hire. Everyone blames the Melo trade on Dolan, except Walsh himself. Even so, the team made the playoffs for 3 straight years, which is more than lots of NBA teams can say. Then the team just missed the playoffs, largely due to injury and the Bargnani trade (which nobody has thus far linked to Dolan’s meddling…was that one of the times he should have meddled?!). Then he spent a fortune on Jackson who backed into a tank/rebuild except for Melo situation we are in now, which looks somewhat promising.

      So, why can’t the Knicks turn into the Rangers going forward…a team on the rise with stable management? Again, same owner.

    59. “Jimmy D is not the genius, his father is. CHARLES Dolan just sold Cablevision for $18 billion or whatever it was. Jimmy was born on third base and stumbled backward to second. And we’ve had courtside seats to the spectacle of the Melo trade, Anucha Brown Sanders, and Isaiah Thomas. He does seem to be letting Phil run things, and it’s one of the reasons I’m still paying attention.”

      http://money.cnn.com/2015/09/16/media/cablevision-altice-deal/

      “Cablevision’s CEO is James Dolan, the controversial businessman who also owns the New York Knicks basketball team.”

    60. Not sure that this occurred to you, but NBA franchises are, in fact, businesses, and an owner’s job is, in fact, being a businessman.

      Drop it, man…lol…Dolan is one of the worst owners in the NBA – it’s common knowledge.

      The conversation has reached the point of diminishing returns, so I’ll just stop posting on the subject.

    61. Are you telling me that not one of the analytics-friendly GMs could throw $3 million per at him? Not one contending team could take a flyer on him?

      These deferral to authority arguments continue to baffle me. Every offseason plenty of guys get paid an amount that isn’t wholly reflective of their value (this includes both over and under payments) for a variety of reasons. If that isn’t true, why use any statistics at all? We should just judge how good players are based on their salary, right? The fact of the matter is there is not one decent metric out there that says Lin has been worse than what we’ve had at point guard since he left.

      But, business man extraordinaire James Dolan thought Andrea Bargnani was a better use of funds. So we should probably just agree, because reasons.

    62. @62 OK thanks

      Good revisionist history on Dolan today, Z-Man. Thought provoking if nothing else. I agree that Steinbrenner is a good model for him. Once he put Stick Michael in place, it all went pretty well. He never really changed, still sniping in the press and pushing for plenty of bad signings, but they didn’t trade the core 4 or Bernie.

      One thing that sort of bugs me is when people fail to parse situations carefully. When Grunwald got Tyson Chandler, I think it turned out pretty well. Finding Lin in the first place was a coup for Donnie Walsh. Even IT drafted Dlee and Nate, got Zbo for Channing Frye, etc. Coming off a seventeen win season, doom and gloom is expected, but certainly Phil hasn’t been “comically inept” at his job and the future looks brighter or brighter.

      So yeah, lots of bad, but maybe not all bad and maybe we can get a break soon as well. Like healthy seasons from our best players, or some low risk high reward gambles paying off.

    63. “These deferral to authority arguments continue to baffle me. Every offseason plenty of guys get paid an amount that isn’t wholly reflective of their value (this includes both over and under payments) for a variety of reasons. If that isn’t true, why use any statistics at all? We should just judge how good players are based on their salary, right?”

      Not many healthy guys that have had the opportunities that he had (good teams without established PGs ahead of him) only to displaced by D-leaguer. Twice. But yeah, the GMs of all 30 teams, including stats-savvy guys like Dallas, Houston, San Antonio, Toronto, etc. know nothing.

      “The fact of the matter is there is not one decent metric out there that says Lin has been worse than what we’ve had at point guard since he left.”

      Jason Kidd, Prigioni, and Shved all played better than Lin, and at a much lower price tag. Galloway will soon be better than him as a two-way player.

      “But, business man extraordinaire James Dolan thought Andrea Bargnani was a better use of funds. So we should probably just agree, because reasons.”

      Is there even a shred evidence stating that Dolan pushed for or meddled in the Bargnani deal? If there is, please show it to me. Otherwise, it should be assumed that it was the GM who pushed for it.

    64. Is there even a shred evidence stating that Dolan pushed for or meddled in the Bargnani deal? If there is, please show it to me. Otherwise, it should be assumed that it was the GM who pushed for it.

      Howard Beck:

      And it was CAA, according to sources, that persuaded Dolan to make the ill-fated trade for its client Andrea Bargnani—over the concerns of the Knicks’ front office.

    65. Jeremy Lin or Ray Felton, Bargnani and this year’s draft pick? It’s astonishing people still think this is worth arguing about. We fucked up. Our team is owned by a petty shitlord whose teams have only ever done anything when he wasn’t involved.

    66. @69 well that’s a shred. Howard Beck is not as bad as Isola, but not great either. In the Beck Q&A piece I cited, he was not providing the answers.

    67. @70, it wasn’t either-or. The deals were separate and should be considered separately. They could have signed a D-Leaguer or vet’s minimum guy to replace Lin and not made either the Felton or the Bargnani deal.

    68. Yeah, but that’s what we actually did. If the Knicks didn’t do stupid shit they’d be better.

    69. Not many healthy guys that have had the opportunities that he had (good teams without established PGs ahead of him) only to displaced by D-leaguer. Twice. But yeah, the GMs of all 30 teams, including stats-savvy guys like Dallas, Houston, San Antonio, Toronto, etc. know nothing.

      They don’t know nothing, but again, if we base our opinions on players solely off of front office evaluations we should only use salary/contract when evaluating them. Because it’s apparently an infallible way of doing so.

      Jason Kidd, Prigioni, and Shved all played better than Lin, and at a much lower price tag. Galloway will soon be better than him as a two-way player.

      Kidd played shooting guard with us, Prigs was awesome but couldn’t play big minutes, and by your method of evaluating players Shved sucks because he couldn’t even find an NBA job.

      Is there even a shred evidence stating that Dolan pushed for or meddled in the Bargnani deal? If there is, please show it to me. Otherwise, it should be assumed that it was the GM who pushed for it.

      Yes, but you immediately dismissed it because it supports the suddenly controversial notion that Dolan sucks.

    70. “and by your method of evaluating players Shved sucks because he couldn’t even find an NBA job.”

      Agreed, and as I said, Lin sucks even worse.

      “Yes, but you immediately dismissed it because it supports the suddenly controversial notion that Dolan sucks.”

      No, I asked for evidence, and someone provided some. And I agree, Dolan sucks. But as I’ve said repeatedly, each move should be judged on its own merits. Dolan and his hires (including Walsh) have made many more bad moves than good ones. On the other hand, Glen Sather has made more good moves than bad ones. And Dolan should not meddle.

    71. Agreed, and as I said, Lin sucks even worse.

      The only thing you’ve cited as evidence of Lin sucking is his contract. That’s it. There are plenty of numbers that indicate he’s a perfectly legitimate NBA player, and definitely a better one than Raymond Felton and the ghost of José Calderon. I don’t understand why they should be completely disregarded because of his contract.

    72. hngggggg this thread hurts my brain.

      Lin was an obvious match even if he disappointed expectations and he’s definitely not greedy. Dolan shouldn’t be seen as business savvy just because his sports teams do well. Pro sports teams in nyc would appreciate in value if you had my 10 year old cousin as owner. Furthermore the only reason the rangers are good is because sather was exceptional and Dolan stopped meddling–our owner is literally a walking fuck up, irredeemable and useless in every way

      At least when we blather on about whether or not Melo is good there’s at least the pretension of interesting and substantive basketball talk as opposed to baseless speculation and arguments that consist of thinly veiled expressions of “I don’t like that guy”

    73. Donnie, I know you have an irrational love for Lin, and that Dolan can’t ever do anything that you would agree with. But you are not interpreting what I am saying correctly.

      It’s not irrational. Lin brought me pleasure as a fan. Something very, very few players have managed to do over the past 15 years.

      And I didn’t misinterpret anything you said. I was posting to the person who started this thread with the statement “Lin shunned us–I never want to see him in a Knick uniform again”.

      But since you’ve injected yourself into the dialogue, may I say that I truly don’t understand why the mention of Lin’s name makes you want to re-lay out your argument for why the Knicks were right to not match. is it really that fun to re-live the time that you may have been right about something?

    74. is it really that fun to re-live the time that you may have been right about something?

      Wait, are you talking to me?

    75. Is James Dolan good at making money as a New York Knicks owner? How is this even a topic of debate?

      Was it necessary to spend $100 million dollars a season to routinely win 20-30 games, or could Dolan have done the same thing with a $30 million dollar payroll (or less?) and pocketed an extra $70 million.

      Does being a laughingstock of the league for 15 years help or hurt the value of the team. I don’t think these are hard questions.

      Even if we inexplicably come to the conclusion that James Dolan is a good basketball owner in regards to business. He’s clearly a terrible owner in regards to winning basketball, which is the only part of his damn job I care about.

    76. if you bought a house in San Francisco in 1995, it doesn’t make you a business genius just because that house might be worth 10-20x more than you paid for it

    77. if you bought a house in San Francisco in 1995, it doesn’t make you a business genius just because that house might be worth 10-20x more than you paid for it

      Bingo.

      Z-man, shades of Ted Nelson today, man. And you know that ain’t good. Just sayin.

    78. Jeremy Lin is now so famously overrated that he is actually underrated. He has played around 8,000 minutes in the league and is a roughly average player– .547 career TS%, .096 career WS48. He had a bit of an off-year last year, clanging a lot of mid-range jumpers in Byron Scott’s ill-conceived Laker offense, but he’s not a terrible player in the right system. He was a good pickup for Charlotte, who got him for peanuts. Lin isn’t a great player but he isn’t a bum either.

    79. Well, once I get compared to Ted Nelson, it’s time to stop.

      And defending Dolan in any context is not a position I want to be in. I hate the bastard as much as anyone.

      My harping on this issue is solely based on the premise that not matching Lin was a good business decision, even in to context of dozens of bad business decisions. In other words, it’s a decision that every smart GM or owner in the league would have made, even Morey himself.

      There are plenty of reasons for hating Dolan. Not paying $60+ million for 3 years to keep a journeyman backup PG on the roster is smart business, no matter how you slice it. There are a million other ways to have better spend that money, and a million worse ways. Dolan and his proxies chose the worse ways. Those should be evaluated separately, each move on its own merits.

      As to Lin himself, as I said above, I would have no problem bringing him back on a reasonable deal (anything under $4 million is decent value for a viable backup PG.) But much too big a deal was made of letting him walk back in 2012, and his play since then proves that. He has had every opportunity to be a starter and failed in two different circumstances, displaced by a D-leaguer in both cases. And I agree that he comes across as being, I dunno, maybe out of touch is the best way of putting it.

    80. I just don’t think Lin’s skill-set is really that valuable in this offense. As Lin stated he is a ball dominant pick and roll player. He is not a great passer or shooter, turns the ball over at an undesirable rate and hes around average or below on defense. I like Lin and might prefer him over vucavic but vucavic is a shooter, knows the offense and by all accounts has taken on the role of mentor for everybody’s good friend KP.

      I’ll remember him fondly but its a joke that one of the best times to be a knick fan since ’99 was a 2-3 week span in February during a season that we got absolutely trounced in the first round of the playoffs

    81. Hah how does Lin create so much polarization still? I thought Lin was told to test the free agent market. Lin wanted to resign but wasn’t given a contract. He got an offer from the Rockets…Morey then from what I recall restructured the contract because the Knicks were going to match the initial contract. Morey restructured with the poison pill, as he did with Asik to gain the system of the convoluted world of NBA contracts.

      But yeah, I guess Dolan is really smart with giving out value contracts, he was right to pass on Lin (who helped him secure his cablevision deal). Jerome James? Eddy Curry? Howard Eisley? Clarence Weatherspoon? Jared Jeffries?

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