Knicks Morning News (2015.10.15)

  • [New York Post] Knicks legend provides words of wisdom for Mets in Game 5 (Thu, 15 Oct 2015 02:54:50 -0400)

    LOS ANGELES — New York City's definitive ultimate game involved a gimpy-legged team captain and a cool, suave point guard who both fashioned legendary nights for the 1970 world champion…

  • [New York Times] Aging Lynx Core Savor Another Title (Thu, 15 Oct 2015 08:42:44 GMT)

    The first Minnesota Lynx title felt like only the beginning, a star-studded core bursting on to the scene and changing the balance of power in the WNBA.

  • [New York Times] Sports Briefing | College Football: Florida Player Suspended (Thu, 15 Oct 2015 04:32:53 GMT)

    The Florida freshman defensive back Deiondre Porter was suspended indefinitely after being arrested on suspicion of firing a gun in the direction of his pregnant girlfriend.

  • [New York Times] Lynx 69, Fever 52: Big Crowd and Defense Spur Lynx to Another Title (Thu, 15 Oct 2015 04:30:49 GMT)

    Minnesota, led by Sylvia Fowles’s 20 points and 11 rebounds, won its third W.N.B.A. championship in five years.

  • [New York Times] Sports Briefing | Pro Basketball: Odom Is on Life Support (Thu, 15 Oct 2015 04:16:39 GMT)

    Lamar Odom, a former N.B.A. star and reality television personality, was on life support Wednesday at a Las Vegas hospital, with his estranged wife, Khloe Kardashian, by his side.

  • [New York Times] Lynx Capture 3rd Title in 5 Years With 69-52 Win in Game 5 (Thu, 15 Oct 2015 02:33:48 GMT)

    Tears streamed down the face of Seimone Augustus. Lindsay Whalen limped off the floor with a badly sprained ankle. Maya Moore couldn’t hit a shot.

  • [New York Times] Hawks Remain Perfect in Preseason, Beating Spurs 100-86 (Thu, 15 Oct 2015 02:27:39 GMT)

    Jeff Teague scored 19 points and the Hawks remained perfect in the preseason, beating the San Antonio Spurs 100-86 Wednesday night in Atlanta’s first home game since the Eastern Conference final.

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    Mike Kurylo is the founder and editor of KnickerBlogger.net. His book on the 2012 Knicks, "We’ll Always Have Linsanity," is on sale now. Follow him on twitter (@KnickerBlogger).

    85 thoughts to “Knicks Morning News (2015.10.15)”

    1. Alecto wrote:

      I’m not even saying that Melo is bad (in fact I think he’s a well above average player), but he’s not worth a max, and I would take Mirotic (a player who I also think is well above average) over Carmelo most any day if only for his age, with reasons similar to what Fisher-Cohen just said (never mind salary). I don’t find that too ridiculous but again you’re free to disagree.

      GoNYGoNYGo replied:

      I am just blown away. Arguing that we would want Miritic over Anthony defies sanity.

      Next.

      I agree with Alecto that at this point in time Mirotic is a much better VALUE as a player because, even if he is not a better player than Melo (that’s very debatable), he puts his team in a better position to succeed through a combination of age, contract, salary and play.

      There is absolutely nothing insane about that. Insane is believing that the Knicks (or any other team) can build a championship squad around Melo. The combination of his offensive production (all he brings to the table), attitude toward defense, salary, contract and age make it totally impossible. I don’t even think Melo would be the “final piece” in a championship team because he would not accept the “second fiddle” role he is best suited for.

      That said, Melo is a great player, just not a great value. Because of the reasons given above.

    2. Yeah, this is essentially what I was saying, though I think he can be the “final” piece in the way that you don’t think he can be. I’m not even that unhappy about the Melo signing (besides that ridiculous no trade clause) or Jackson’s “partial rebuild while trying to win” strategy–at minimum it’s going to make us not-awful, not-dysfunctional, and more “fun” to watch for the next few years, which is better than it has been for the past 15 years, and better for my sanity. It’s just sub-optimal, and I’d prefer doing a full rebuild like a more patient team would in the hope that we could eventually become a championship squad through shrewd acquisition and player evaluation and maybe getting really lucky with Kristaps.

      That’s all water under the bridge, though. The Bulls SnT came up again and I wanted to stir the pot a bit so I posted that Mirotic comment (which I stand by!) Really I can’t wait for the (non-preseason) games to start up again so we can really see what we have with some of these players and so we don’t have to discuss the same things ad nauseam.

    3. Fortunately it is baseball season for at least another day for me and the Jets are competent. Next up was re-signing Jeremy Lin a no brainer!!! Ducking

    4. Porzingis numbers through 2 preseason games and summer league: .564 TS, 7.2 rebounds per 36, 2.9 blocks per 36

      That block rate would rake 6th among qualified defenders last year.

      He’s +29 dating back to summer league as well.

      I would take that from a rookie 100 times out of 100. Porzingis’ biggest obstacles to success are adjusting the speed of the game and filling out. His translated Euro stats paint him in a very positive light as well. Early days, but I like that he finds a way to stay involved and active in the game even though he’s not a high usage player.

      With the fairly obvious caveats about sample size (his preseason TS% is only 50.4!) and the level of competition, I would also be thrilled with those numbers over a full season. What has been encouraging to me is that he has generally played within the offense, and he’s freakishly enormous and can block shots from a lot of different places.

    5. That said, Melo is a great player, just not a great value. Because of the reasons given above.

      How Sway? I don’t know how this statement makes sense.

    6. How Sway? I don’t know how this statement makes sense.

      It makes a lot of sense: every player has a value to a team that is the ratio of productivity to cost. Melo would be more valuable to the Knicks if he played better defense, a bit more valuable if he scored more efficiently, a bit more valuable without the trade clause, even more valuable with a lower salary, even more valuable at a younger age or with a shorter contract, etc., etc.

      And no, this is not a dig at Melo; it applies to all players. LeBron James, the best player on the planet, is far more valuable at $24 millions per year than 45 millions (just an example!). If you add a no-trade clause his value will be diminished even more, etc.

      That’s the idea.

    7. How Sway? I don’t know how this statement makes sense.

      It’s because value and productivity are two separate concepts–productivity abstracts away from salary considerations (as well as intangibles but these aren’t as important when talking about the difference between productivity and value) and just considers a players stats on the court in relation to others. Value is a more wide-encompassing notion, that includes productivity but also includes salary considerations (and maybe even intangibles, but that’s certainly less obvious and less quantifiable and so harder to include in the calculus in any rigorous way).

      Someone can be a productive player at .150 WS/48 (or pick your favorite advanced stat) but still be a bad value because he/she is being paid a max salary–their productivity is only one part of the story when determining a player’s overall value. For those of us more skeptical of Melo’s productivity, he’s a bad value at the max because his productivity isn’t high enough to justify the opportunity cost of devoting whatever X% of the cap that constitutes a max contract for a veteran player (25-30 iirc) compared to the other options out there.

    8. I agree with Alecto that at this point in time Mirotic is a much better VALUE as a player because, even if he is not a better player than Melo (that’s very debatable), he puts his team in a better position to succeed through a combination of age, contract, salary and play.

      Using that logic, I’m a better value than Melo because I would pay to play.

    9. Using that logic, I’m a better value than Melo because I would pay to play.

      No, because value is still tied to productivity–it’s just not conceptually equivalent to productivity. You’d be a very unproductive player and come with the opportunity cost of taking up a roster spot even if you didn’t play. So you’d be a horrible value because of your (non)productivity (if you ever even got to play) and because of the opportunity cost of even having you on the team for 0 dollars–never mind the 500k minimum salary in the nba.

      You’d be a better value than a 12m/yr Bargnani, though, I think. So you could take solace in that.

    10. I took the argument to the extreme because of how extreme the argument is.

      You can fill up a team with “great values” and end up with a roster like John Idzik did with the Jets last year. Great value. Saved the team money. Had ZERO chance of being good.

    11. Using that logic, I’m a better value than Melo because I would pay to play.

      I know you’re just making a silly counter-argument, but even then, my formula (that states value as the ratio of productivity to cost) works. You’re not more valuable than Melo even if you pay to play!

      Check it out ;-)

    12. I never said that we should only go for “great values”–what one should go for is productive players who are also great values–great values that are still relatively unproductive don’t cut it. You can have a team of “great values” in that they’re on cheap minimum contracts and play at a slightly above league average or above replacement level, but that team won’t be good. But that conclusion never followed from my argument in the first place, and I think to assume that it does is a mischaracterization. I was just elucidating the connection between value and productivity and claiming that they are not identical and, furthermore, that you have to take both into consideration. Which is rather obvious, once you spell it out, but people often tend to assume an equivalence or an isomorphism between the two when there is none there.

    13. Precisely. by that standard Philadelphia has a very high value team because so many players are on rookie contracts. But they are probably going to be terrible yet again. Boston is another example. They accumulated role players and picks, but it’s not at all clear that they will be a championship contender any time soon. Having traded Melo for draft choices and role players would have put us in a similar position to one of those two teams and we probably would have to sit through several years of terrible basketball. I, for one, would much rather have a watchable team that has potential to grow. I don’t think Phil’s path will be as quick to contention as everyone hopes, but I think it will give a competitive team and maybe a real contender in a year or two.

      I also don’t think Melo is horrible value even at his current contract. Of course LeBron is better value per dollar, but in terms of the market, there are certainly teams out there that would pay Melo the same to hire him as a free agent if they could do so. I have watched enough Knicks basketball over the years that my standards for Knicks success are unfortunately low and I would rather this path now than Phillies.

    14. I don’t necessarily think that Melo is a horrible value either–I just think that he’s sub-optimal, and sub-optimal enough that Phil shouldn’t have resigned him. But it’s certainly not horrible (unless the NTC ends up screwing us over).

    15. I think Melo’s current contract would be perfectly fine for a team that could realistically contend for a title this year, like Houston or Chicago. Melo’s greatest value is going to lie in the first few years of this deal, and that’s why it is such a poor deal, because the best years by Melo under the contract will specifically be the years that the Knicks won’t be contending. Absolute best cast scenario, they’re contenders in Year 3 of his contract. More likely they’re not contenders until Year 4 or 5 (if then). Signing a 30-year-old guy to a mega-max contract when you’re not going to be good for the first three years of the five years is not a good idea (even if it was “just” the first two years it would still be a bad idea – that’s 40% of the deal and presumably the two best years for the player!). The only teams where signing 30 year old players to mega-max contracts make sense are teams that plan to contend in the early years of said player’s contract. Plus, of course, the No-Trade Clause was just extra bonkers. As if he was going to turn down the money if they didn’t give him a No-Trade Clause. That was just classic negotiating against yourself.

    16. Bad players on cheap contracts are not great value. That’s why a good team can’t be built on cheap contracts (Philadelphia|low productivity|low cost) or low-value players (Knicks|Melo|Amare|Bargnani) .
      LeBron is great value. Chandler was a great value to the Knicks (but you need far more than one very valuable player in order to field a competitive team). Melo would be a great value at a much lower salary. Andy Rautins was not a great value at ANY salary.

    17. Precisely. by that standard Philadelphia has a very high value team because so many players are on rookie contracts. But they are probably going to be terrible yet again.

      Very good example.

      Rookies have no established value – because we have no idea how much they will produce. We know their cost, but we don’t know about their productivity.

      Philadelphia is betting that those rookies will become very productive and thus very valuable (because of their cheap contracts). That’s what we are doing with Porzingis. Potential, not value, is the operative word for rookies/untested players.

    18. Signing a 30-year-old guy to a mega-max contract when you’re not going to be good for the first three years of the five years is not a good idea (even if it was “just” the first two years it would still be a bad idea – that’s 40% of the deal and presumably the two best years for the player!).

      Yes, it’s not a good idea IF the purpose is to field a competitive team. If the purpose is to sell fans on the idea of having a competitive team, then it’s not so bad. Dolan is a very shrewd businessman. That’s the reason Phil Jackson was hired: raising fan hope is good for business.

    19. That’s fair. Similarly to how Kobe’s most recent deal makes more sense if your goal is to sell tickets, because then having Kobe on the team trying for a scoring record works well.

    20. Philly doesn’t spend it’s whole cap. If it spent its whole cap on players with similar production/cost to Noel or Covington, it would win 70 games. Instead, it’s getting zero from Embiid at $4.6m cost, almost zero from McGee $12m cost, almost zero from Gerald Wallace at $10.1m, and $15m of free cap space on no one. So it’s no surprise that Philly will be bad when they’re dumping over $40m just this coming season on basically nothing.

      Productivity per dollar is how you win. There is no other way. If my car gets 35 MPG and yours gets 20 MPG, I will be able to drive further on the same amount of gas.

      The complicated question is how you maximize your productivity per dollar both on a single season and long term basis. The only obvious solution is to have a player who produces over the max. Every other kind of player, unless he takes a home town discount, will get a new salary near his productivity when his current deal is up.

    21. Why are we suddenly not factoring in that Melo’s contract is no longer a “mega-max deal?”

      And given the cap expansion and the contracts/players/draft picks we currently own, how far away are we really away from contention? If we sign, say, Durant next year, are we contenders? That would make us one player away. Do we have the theoretical ability to sign him, i.e. the cap space?

      I just don’t get the notion that our 5-year outlook would be better right now if we let Melo walk or got role players or mid-level draft picks for him. The only question is whether Melo stays healthy. If he’s healthy, he’s worth every peny of his current contract.

    22. Let’s try to get the All Value Team in Knick uniforms.
      Is there a trophy for that???

      I’ll take the better player , it’s Dolan’s money.

    23. And given the cap expansion and the contracts/players/draft picks we currently own, how far away are we really away from contention?

      Very, very far.

    24. think Melo’s current contract would be perfectly fine for a team that could realistically contend for a title this year, like Houston or Chicago. Melo’s greatest value is going to lie in the first few years of this deal, and that’s why it is such a poor deal, because the best years by Melo under the contract will specifically be the years that the Knicks won’t be contending.

      I can accept this as a rational argument. It’s futile to try and change my mind about my previous statement: “Arguing that we would want Mirotic over Anthony defies sanity.”

      @25

      Let’s try to get the All Value Team in Knick uniforms.
      Is there a trophy for that???

      It’s called a “Participation Trophy”

      I’ll take the better player , it’s Dolan’s money.

      +1

    25. Productivity per dollar is how you win. There is no other way. If my car gets 35 MPG and yours gets 20 MPG, I will be able to drive further on the same amount of gas.

      That’s if you manage to spend all your cap in good productivity per dollar players. But there are few of those players, and they are very demanded so their price increase and they are no longer good productivity per dollar. There are a few that escape the market law, those who are so good that even at the max are good (LeBron), a few rookies, and vets in search for a ring. But there is only one Lebron, and a handful of good rookies each year.

      So if your goal is to maximize the production of your entire roster maybe spending a good chunk of the cap in someone who is a good player is not bad, even if the productivity-per-dollar is not good. Specially taking into account that the team still has max space next summer.

    26. The rising cap next year does throw all bets off. The team will have money to spend on free agents, despite the Melo overpay. So it is possible that contention could come sooner rather than later.

      That said, the Knicks had money this season to spend and didn’t do a very good attracting their targeted free agents. They will have even more competition next summer (everybody gets free money to spend), so unless things change a lot from last year, all that extra dough may not lead to a precocious rebuild at all.

    27. Let’s try to get the All Value Team in Knick uniforms.
      Is there a trophy for that???

      I’ll take the better player , it’s Dolan’s money.

      It’s Dolan’s money that he’s not allowed to spend as he sees fit. Since there is a salary cap, value is important. Generally, if Player A is 10% better than Player B, but six times more expensive, you should go with Player B.

    28. “The rising cap next year does throw all bets off. The team will have money to spend on free agents, despite the Melo overpay.”
      True, but the “all bets off” applies not only to how much money a team has to spend, but also to how far the FA dollar goes. Let’s not forget that Iman Shumpert was deemed to be “worth” $10 million/year this off-season. Who knows what good free agents will get paid next summer.

    29. Melos value is exactly what it’s supposed to be. People in this blog do not account for the casual fans. It’s a business. On the sports side it’s still not bad. Melo is the fifth highest paid player in the league. Now this is because he’s a 12 year get and is able to command more salary. I don’t get the handwringint

    30. all that extra dough may not lead to a precocious rebuild at all.

      Off topic, just noting that I’m impressed with your use of the term precocious there.

    31. Two weeks until my birthday (and our first game). So you’re running out of time to get presents.

    32. Not to derail the 7000th debate about whether Melo is underrated, overrated, underpaid, overpaid, should have been traded, etc., but Afflalo is likely going to play tomorrow, as is Seraphin. Porzingis says he’s at or close to 100%, but Fisher wants to give him an extra day, and to let him get in a practice on Friday, so he’ll likely play Saturday.

      With Seraphin back, hoping we don’t get a repeat of Lance Thomas in the starting lineup, even if I understand Fisher’s desire to get the actual rotation regulars used to their place in the rotation. If Seraphin starts, it means they see him as a 4 and a 5, and that he may play alongside RoLo at times.

    33. NBA-let’s have no preseason games for 5 days and then have consecutive games.

      Seraphin should only ever be used at center, and should be benched immediately every time he takes a jump shot.

    34. Yeah im really interested in seeing Affalo this season, I know he struggled last season because of some injuries but he had a very good season two years ago. He shot like ~43% from three on 6 attempts a game. His TS was 57% which is very good for a two guard who can’t really finish above the rim. I expect a bounce back season offensively from him and i don’t see a lot of two guards in the east lighting him up defensively.

    35. I have to say, Williams’ scoring so far has been eye-opening.
      It would seem Phil saw something that everyone else missed.

      Or does he normally do this in preseason play?

    36. Williams seems like a low IQ player but he definitely brings a level of athleticism this team has really missed. He’s literally Lebron-sized (very similar measurements) and is nearly as athletic (while being worse in every other way than Lebron of course).

      It seems Fisher and Phil have put some priority on scoring easy baskets – first with the Williams signing (great finishing around the rim and in transition), and with the noticeable emphasis on playing a faster pace and getting out hard in transition.

      One of the other major problems with this team last year was the 3 point defense – which I gather was at least partially because we had zero interior defense, so you had to pick between a wide-open Bargnani/Jah-guarded lane or opponents hoisting up 3’s. This year the middle will be patrolled by much better defenders, so hopefully Fish will put some emphasis on staying close to 3 point shooters.

    37. Derrick Williams’ goal should be 56 TS% and getting his rebounding back to the levels he was at his first couple of years. He does that and can be acceptably bad on defense and I’ll be less upset about his hair.

    38. @31 I would agree with your assessment on that comparison. But if your team is filled with players of 10% less ability they are not going far in the playoffs. At some point every team will likely be forced to overpay to one degree or another to get a few top tier players if they want to seriously compete. It is a player’s league. Overpaying with Dolan’s money (to the extent possible under the cap) works for me all day.

    39. Im trying to wrap my brain around the fact that a team full of Nerlens Noels and Robert Covingtons would win 70 games.

    40. Am I the only one salivating over the possibility of picking up some nice young players off of the waiver wire soon? I saw a couple of good ones on Golden State and doesn’t Philly have like six young point guards? Aren’t the Clippers, Spurs, and Rockets overwhelmed with young talent too? Why not jettison the end of our bench if we can upgrade it for the future?

    41. Why not jettison the end of our bench if we can upgrade it for the future?

      One would hope Phil is willing to jettison Cleanthony (who’s shown precious little) or Lance Thomas (who gets to keep his guaranteed above-minimum salary as reward for being a good soldier) for someone better on the waiver wire, but we’ll see.

    42. “Im trying to wrap my brain around the fact that a team full of Nerlens Noels and Robert Covingtons would win 70 games.”

      Jowles will gladly explain it to you.

    43. Derrick Williams’ goal should be 56 TS% and getting his rebounding back to the levels he was at his first couple of years. He does that and can be acceptably bad on defense and I’ll be less upset about his hair.

      Word. I like him as a sort of 3 and no D player. Take the corner 3 when you’re open, slash to the rim when you don’t have the ball, and get some rebounds and you’ll be useful.

    44. One would hope Phil is willing to jettison Cleanthony (who’s shown precious little) or Lance Thomas (who gets to keep his guaranteed above-minimum salary as reward for being a good soldier) for someone better on the waiver wire, but we’ll see.

      I just don’t see why he would give them guaranteed contracts if he was planning to sign any players cut by other teams during training camp. I could see him cutting guys for good waived players later in the season (when veteran soon-to-be-free-agents start getting bought out) but not this soon. I mean, think about it, why would you ever guarantee a guy money in July if you think he’s cuttable in October?

    45. I mean, think about it, why would you ever guarantee a guy money in July if you think he’s cuttable in October?

      How much of a salary cap hit would we take? Again, if you look at the deal as a reward for playing hard, good character, etc. — and then as a sign to other players that such hard play and good character will also be rewarded — and if it doesn’t impair our ability to pick up other people at the minimum, and if Lance keeps his money (and probably gets a minimum salary elsewhere to add onto that), then everybody wins? Maybe?

      Yeah, I dunno. But Cleanthony and/or Thanasis would likely be the most vulnerable, given the minimal investment.

    46. But last year he traded a second-round pick rather than just cut Travis Outlaw to make room for Travis Wear. And that was with a guy he took as sort of a placeholder in a trade, not a guy he himself had just signed.

      Don’t get me wrong, you know me, I’d love it if they were willing to cut bait on some of these guys to pick up interesting young waived guys (not Early, though, I’d like to see him be given one last chance). I just don’t think that it’s likely.

    47. then everybody wins?

      No. Basketball lifers never make those kinds of moves because they understand that it will make it harder for them to do certain kinds of deals in the future – Phil will not cut Lance for a slightly better player; he would only make that move if it were a significant upgrade he could explain to agents.

    48. Different topic: Phisher’s choices in composing and directing units. My impressions from what we’ve seen so far…

      Style points: 2nd units might have a transition offense! It’s a starling hallucinatory moment each time it happens – Loosely grouping guys into units by half-court vs. full-court potential could pay off, it seems to me.
      Passing trig isn’t a requirement – Grant is free to penetrate and create; DWill’s success is valued over his correctness. I like it.

      Blood red flags: Defense of 3pters might go from abysmal to …. what lurks beneath abysmal? It could be a challenge for Phisher to contrive a remedy for this if Calderon, Grant?, Hairnet, Afflalo and DWill are all just plain awful at staying with guys and/or closing out and Anthony persists in saving his energy for offense.

      Cheap thrills: Speedy guards who torture us on offense will bounce like unsuspecting toddlers off impenetrable screens set by the mighty O’Quinn or Lopez on the other end. Many screens are being set and we have some cheerily indecorous screen setters.

    49. No. Basketball lifers never make those kinds of moves because they understand that it will make it harder for them to do certain kinds of deals in the future

      Good point. Then odds are small of a waiver wire pick-up, unless they’re ready to cut bait on one or both of last year’s 2nd-rounders.

    50. Then odds are small of a waiver wire pick-up, unless they’re ready to cut bait on one or both of last year’s 2nd-rounders.

      If something happens, it’s likely to happen with Thanasis. I think they love what he COULD be, but he hasn’t shown enough to get playing time even in the pre-season, meaning he’s likely to be back at Westchester… and he might be unhappy enough about that that the Knicks will cut him as a distraction. If the right pick-up is available, that is.

    51. It’s definitely Thanasis. I just read that it turned out that he didn’t get a fully guaranteed deal. He just got the same deal as the other Knick training camp invitees. The only difference is that the Knicks gave him an unguaranteed second year option. So he’s definitely by far be the guy who will get cut if they want to pick somebody else up.

    52. Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

      Me reading the Woj tweet that says OKC is in talks with Waiters about signing an extension

    53. Im trying to wrap my brain around the fact that a team full of Nerlens Noels and Robert Covingtons would win 70 games.

      The fact? Who said that was a fact? What?

      http://www.boxscoregeeks.com/players/1374-robert-covington

      This dude would win 70 games for a team? What the fuck? Why is everyone mad that the Wins Produced people don’t believe in the conjecture-and-anecdote-laden argument that a team needs a high-volume scorer (at basically any middling efficiency) to win?

    54. I don’t think anyone has said that you need a high volume scorer. A team of 5 equally very good players can definitely win IE the Pistons or Spurs. But you need the right conditions. It’s much easier and much more abundant having a player that bends the defense and makes it easier for the others.

      This is the NBA. Everyone is good. So when you have someone who is so good at scoring that you have to change the whole defense towards them , it causes chaos. That chaos allows for lesser players to get higher percentage shots if the offense is correctly run. That is exactly what happened in 2012 with Jason Kidd. He was able to capitalize on Melo. We haven’t had a pg like that in his prime since Melo was here.

    55. Knickerblogger has contributed to the inevitabilities of life. They now are:
      1. Taxes;
      2. Death; and
      3. Debate over Melo and his value.

    56. It’s much easier and much more abundant having a player that bends the defense and makes it easier for the others.

      Anecdotally. Please, please, please give me some evidence that a volume scorer improves others’ efficiency. Some. Please.

    57. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=if0xqYrYUJA

      Here’s a short mixtape of Kidd’s time on the Knicks. I’m just going to break this down by play, and whether Carmelo’s ability to draw double-teams affects the play.

      1) no, he’s just in the post single-teamed
      2) fuck no, blown coverage
      3) absolutely not, felton drives to the FT line and kicks it out, another blown assignment
      4) Carmelo assist on a 4-on-2 fast break (!!!!! OMG!!!!!!)
      5) can’t tell, camerawork sucks THIS ONE IS A DEFINITELY MAYBE
      6) nope, again the defender closed out too late but Carmelo is just pushing on someone sort of outside of the high elbow
      7) Carmelo is literally a foot away from the midcourt logo, I guess he affected the play because Gerald Wallace is all up on him, but come on, no — defender forgot to close out (again!)
      8) Kidd steals inbound pass and uses Carmelo on a 2-on-1 to finish play (yay Melo!)
      9) Dribble penetration by Felton, found him for 3
      10) Carmelo passes to wide-open Kidd for 3, dunno but it looks like a defender dashes to the rim for no reason at all (yay Melo for noticing!)
      11) Kidd steals ball
      12) Kidd beats defender in Andre Miller-like layup, Carmelo’s man plays him tight to prevent the corner 3 (try to convince me that Steve Novak couldn’t have done the same thing)
      13) Dribble penetration Felton, screen by Chandler
      14) Shumpert dribble pen.
      15) Melo not on floor
      16) ” ” (but they’re double-teaming Camby in the fucking post! Camby!)
      17) Beats defender on dribble pen
      18) Maybe Melo affects play. Defender out of position in the middle of the key for no reason at all, Kidd’s wide open for easy 3.
      19) Okay, NY-ORL @ 1:31 — Melo definitely creates this look. Kidd’s defender is doing a horrible job of staying honest and totally comes to help Melo’s primary defender. Dude is 10 feet from Kidd when Melo makes the pass. Good job, Melo!
      20) Melo in the corner on the other side of the floor. Felton dribble pen.
      21) Melo not on floor.
      22)…

    58. Mirotic has better value than Melo
      same with 76ers has better value than the knicks.
      THose assets will be needed in the future to acquire a ala melo type of player.
      In imaginary world those philly assets look good and they will trade for a lebron quality player but reality is theyre losing bad and will be a knicks level once they improve.

    59. Please, please, please give me some evidence that a volume scorer improves others’ efficiency. Some. Please.

      That’s what Pop is betting on with LaMarcus Aldridge. He was right on international players, pace and space offenses, and minutes restrictions. Somehow, a volume scorer was not anathema to the team he’s built. I’m giving him the benefit of the doubt.

    60. @69 right but that team is already awesome. So it will make aldridges life easier. So In his case there will probably be an increase in his ts% rather than the other way around right?

    61. i will rather watch this Knicks with melo than with mirotic.
      If I am Dolan maybe i will be upset for my wallet but i am not him.
      Also, a mirotic type of player doesnt give hope. we have pozringis for the future and melo for the present.
      I wonder why we have too much hate to melo. he is NY as of now hope we will give our support to him. He is like our Ewing before. We gave a lot of criticsm while he is playing but when he is gone, we realized that the hope is also gone.

    62. I must be dumb because I don’t get how a highlight reel of Jason Kidd hitting shots proves anything one way or the other about Melo — especially since Melo isn’t even on the court for half of the plays. By the way, in a lot of those highlights I think I see Tyson Chandler standing around doing nothing, which shows just how dumb I really am because that can’t possibly be correct. Everyone knows that Chandler is an all-time great offensive force, so he can’t possibly just be standing around. By the way, Chandler has led the league in offensive rating four of the last five years. You know who led it the other year? Robin Lopez. Go figure.

    63. don’t believe in the conjecture-and-anecdote-laden argument

      Here’s a short mixtape of Kidd’s time on the Knicks. I’m just going to break this down by play

    64. @74

      5) can’t tell, camerawork sucks THIS ONE IS A DEFINITELY MAYBE

      yo check out the science above though

      and also so basically Kidd made ~150 FG in 2012-13 and I looked at 21 of the plays he scored on, Melo was either not in them or negligible, definitely not as important as the person actually holding the fucking ball before making the motion to put the ball in the hoop

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_tank_problem

      DUH

      QED Melo is not that important to Jason Kidd, all you need is dribble penetration and ball movement and the swoosh happens

      and yeah, how the fuck is Tyson Chandler going to affect the play on a dribble penetration and kick-out corner 3? Chandler is awesome on the plays that will never make it on another player’s highlight reel, i.e. the fucking plays where the player fucking misses and Chandler gets an offensive rebound and the play resets

      I mean jesus christ guys this isn’t fucking rocket science

    65. and also so basically Kidd made ~150 FG in 2012-13 and I looked at 21 of the plays he scored on, Melo was either not in them or negligible, definitely not as important as the person actually holding the fucking ball before making the motion to put the ball in the hoop

      ?

      QED Melo is not that important to Jason Kidd, all you need is dribble penetration and ball movement and the swoosh happens

      Man you should tell someone how simple the NBA is

    66. Anecdotally. Please, please, please give me some evidence that a volume scorer improves others’ efficiency. Some. Please.

      @76

    67. So, I think I get it now. There’s a 2 and a half minute video showing Jason Kidd making plays. Thus, Melo had no impact in 3,000 minutes that he played. QED!!!! Sorry Jowles. I’m slow. It took awhile for that to sink in. It wasn’t until you added the “QED” that it became obvious. The problem is that Ruru is now likely to point out that Melo’s teams have always been much better offensively with him on the floor than off (including something like 15 points/100 last year) so I might be duped once again into thinking that he’s a good player. Silly me.

    68. By the way, I hope that other teams don’t see that Kidd video because, if they do, the Knicks won’t even be able to trade Melo for that second round pick that someone wanted the Knicks to get for him yesterday. Damn. Another opportunity squandered.

    69. @69 +1 for the proper use of the word “anathema”.

      @71

      i will rather watch this Knicks with melo than with mirotic.

      Me too

      I wonder why we have too much hate to melo. he is NY as of now hope we will give our support to him. He is like our Ewing before. We gave a lot of criticsm while he is playing but when he is gone, we realized that the hope is also gone.

      Knick fans are not happy unless they’re miserable. (sounds like my wife)

    70. On the issue of Chandler and efficient scoring: given that the player only takes no-miss shots from no-miss distance, this type of scoring can’t be successfully compared to regular scoring. It’s like determining who was a better/more efficient scorer in soccer: Pele or Player X, who only shot penalty kicks.

      That said, Chandler was an excellent value for the Knicks: a solid performer at a reasonable price. If the Knicks had acted out of character using the amnesty on Amare, not Billups, we would have a few more playoff wins…but that’s history now and all we have is the Porzingis ride to take us near the promised land. Jalopy or Porsche? Time will tell.

    71. I think you’re asking the wrong questions. Does Melo make the Knicks offense better? Sure-Melo’s a good offensive player. Does Melo make everyone else better? That evidence is mixed. Sometimes other guys score better when Melo’s on the court. Sometimes they don’t. Is that random? Melo? The other guys? Coaching?

      As an example, let’s look at the dear departed JR Smith. It would stand to reason that JR would be better with Melo than without. They’ve played together a ton, and the defensive attention given to Melo would create better open shot opportunities for JR. In the 2013 NBA season, though, when Melo wasn’t on the court JR scored more efficiently, at a higher usage, with a lower TOV% than when Melo was on it. What does that mean?

      That same year, Tyson was far less efficient without Melo than he was when Melo was on the court. But then he went to Dallas the next year and was better without Melo than he was the year before with Melo. So what does that mean?

      And finally, what if I told you that Pablo Prigioni was most efficiently scoring guard in NBA history when he wasn’t distracted by Carmelo’s ball hogging histrionics? Sweet Pablo’s TS% without Melo on the floor was seventy five point six percent Clearly, we kept the wrong man at the trade deadline, right?

    72. “Sweet Pablo’s TS% without Melo on the floor was seventy five point six percent. Clearly, we kept the wrong man at the trade deadline, right?”
      See, this kind of analysis is why so many people here keep nominating you to become the Knicks’ GM…

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