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102 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2025.02.13)”
Macri talks about this game as a Rorschach test, allowing you to use it to see whatever you want to see both in it and in the state of the Knicks at the 2/3 mark of the season. I have chosen to see the following things:
1. Everyone is gassed. Everyone needs a break. And I really hope that Jalen and KAT spend most of the various All-Star games cheering from the bench.
2. I don’t know how much of the defensive breakdowns can be ascribed to the aforementioned fatigue, versus injuries, versus KAT being a poor defender and Brunson being an only slightly less poor one. I don’t know how much the returns of OG and/or Mitch will fix things. And I don’t know how many more schematic changes Thibs is capable of making if a return to full health doesn’t solve that stuff.
3. This is a team capable of incredible highs and exasperating lows. But on the whole I think it’s better — or, at least, more sustainable over a season and some kind of playoff run — than last year’s, and the best squad we’ve had since the ’90s. Can we get over the hump and beat any of Boston, Cleveland, or OKC? So far, the evidence seems to suggest not. But after 20 years largely filled with hopeless, joyless, incompetent Knicks rosters and management teams, I am not going to rend any garments over being somewhere between the fourth and sixth best team in the league, and one capable of incredible offensive fireworks against any team but Boston. For now, I’ll take that.
Get some naps in, guys.
Nice!
And I totally agree with you on your hope for the least participation possible for Jalen and KAT in All-Star stuff. Again, I prefer that they’d be both be relaxing on beaches on tropical islands rather than doing *any* basketball activities, but neither one of them is going to bow out, especially not at this point.
Without questioning the quality or good faith of the general post — there’s nothing there to question — I have to confess to finding it a bit odd that we’re still hearing about the 20 years and the PTSD when this will be the fourth year in five the team will be in the playoffs and they’ve won two playoff rounds. JK also alluded to this the other day.
It was less than two basketball and calendar years ago that in the playoffs they demolished the team they’ve now, by all accounts, fallen behind. It’s hard not to see at least some level of stagnation and treading water in that.
This team hasn’t been bad since they closed the doors for Covid. It’s now five years later. They need to move the needle.
The minutes distribution last night in a meaningless February game when they’re multiple games ahead for the third seed and they don’t necessarily even want the third seed, was patently absurd.
They just don’t get it.
I’m mostly aligned with Alan. And I don’t necessarily agree that Cleveland has passed us in playoff capability. Seems like the best bet is that they will suffer the same fate as us except a round later. When you look at their makeup and add Mitch to our depth I think we would again match up very well with Cleveland. They are even smaller in the backcourt than we are. And that seems to be an advantage that Boston exploits very well. Mikal can lock down one of Mitchell or Garland. And the Cleveland bigs do not present the outside shooting threat that Boston’s bigs do.
As for treading water, that’s really not true. The Knicks are a bit of an unfinished product. The true test will be against Boston in the 2nd round. If it’s a tough close series then I think we can agree we are pretty close. If it’s not then bigger changes (including a possible coaching change) will need to be contemplated.
I’m no x’s and o’s guy but I do wonder sometimes about Thibs’s ability to make in-game adjustments — even if an adjustment doesn’t work, don’t you have to try SOMETHING if the other team is literally scoring at will? The Hawks have Trae Young and basically no one else when it comes to creating offense (now that Jaylen Johnson is out for the year). They did it maybe a couple times last night – and by “it” I mean putting 2 on the ball and making Trae pass it out – and it feels like those possessions turned out well.
And I generally don’t agree with E on anything, but I do sort of agree that we might just want the 4 seed rather than the 3 seed in order to avoid Boston. There is something about that Boston team and whatever it is Mazzulla is doing that is like kryptonite.
(I am sort of nervous about any matchup with Cleveland too – Deandre Hunter is a great pickup for them)
This is a feel-good cliche. Given their lack of draft picks and assets, and financial flexibility, the Knicks are probably the most “finished” product in the NBA.
As Owen said yesterday, this is their team. If people want to keep pretending they haven’t “gelled” yet or “need more time together,” that’s certainly their prerogative … but this is their finished team.
This is their team for this year yes. With one exception. Mitch has shown to be impact player when healthy. How that will manifest this season is a tough guess. But it’s not a finished product for next year. There are always creative ways to make deals. Might that mean trading a member of the core? Yes. But it also might not.
I’m not saying they haven’t gelled. They have gelled with the schemes that Thibs has implemented. Thibs seat will seemingly be pretty warm this summer if they don’t have a competitive series with Boston.
Winning on a back to back with 7 playable guys is not easy. Going into the break with Trae blowing kisses to the crowd after a late game collapse would have been disgusting
Game ball to Precious for a near career night. Honorable mention to Payne for rallying us at a crucial point.
Obviously Towna played great but the seven turnovers were brutal and unnecessary and he is an all star starter. Tonight was the first time in a while he looked like the long range bomber we saw in November.
The Hawks were gritty. Okongwo is a nightmare to deal with on the boards and had a monster game everywhere but the stripe. 9-10 with 5 assists and no turnovers.
Speaking of no turnovers, the Hawks had 8 from Trae and four from the rest of the team.
Don’t know who Gueye is but he and Mann did us a solid. 0-10 combined and -31 in as many minutes.
They were terrific at stripping us all night long. It’s one of the four factors you don’t think about that much but it swing the game. Obviously it shouldn’t have been close but they earned the comeback.
We made fun of Dad Bod but when the dust settled the Minibus actually ended up with an amazing line.
I always knock him but Lavert was terrific too
Each game is a tree. The forest has always been the same:
– At full strength this is a really good team capable of making an exciting run this year (but probably not capable of winning the 2025 title).
– With any injury, this team is fucked and could lose in the first round.
– Only the unlikely return of Platonic Ideal Mitch can change our path this year.
– With a good offseason, next year we could be the team people thought we’d be this year.
So my Rorschach assessment is that last night was fun AF. We learned nothing new bc we already know how fucked we are when anyone gets hurt. It’s all entertainment, that was a brilliant performance.
Btw Jimmy Butler shot 28 free throws in his first two games as a Warrior. Must be nice to have that whistle.
I would not want to face Golden State in the playoffs (their loss to Dallas last night notwithstanding). If they are the 7 seed, Memphis is dead. If they are the 8 seed, I’m sure the Thunder will win but it should be fun.
It probably won’t happen but the Nets are in the East playoff picture at the asb, which is something I wouldn’t have imagined at the start of the season
If I had to guess from reading the comments above (and some of the recent ones in general), I’d say we all like Thibs and are grateful for what he’s done, but there is a consensus growing that upgrading the coach is probably the most impactful change we can make this summer.
At the same time, there is probably a collective acceptance that it will never happen. Which is weird because I think Thibs tracks extremely close to JB Bickerstaff on the Cavs.
After molding a young team for two seasons, JB won 99 games over the last two years.
Over the same exact period, Thibs molded a winning culture for two seasons, then won 97 games over the last two years.
In the playoffs, JB won one series, got his pants pulled down in one his team was favored to win (against us), and lost a respectable round to the Celtics last year.
In the playoffs, Thibs has won two series and got his pants pulled down in three his team was favored to win (Atlanta, Miami, Indiana).
Both guys are good at culture building and preparation but terrible at adjustments and X’s & O’s. Neither is particularly good in the playoffs. It’s a little perplexing why one guy was on the hot seat all along while the other seemingly has total security.
We cannot ignore the possibility that race is a factor because the history of black coaches in sports is undeniable. That’s not where I want to take this, but it has to be mentioned that maybe JB would still be there if he were, I don’t know, Nick Nurse.
But I’m inclined to think, given the spectacular result of switching to Atkinson, that the Cavs were motivated by the right reasons here. They saw the limitations of their culture coach and upgraded to a total coach because they wanted to get to the next level. Whereas we seem to see the limitations of ours and are just cool with it.
Pretty much the only two teams who have no real chance at the playoffs are the Hornets and the Wizards. (I don’t mean officially/mathematically. Both of those teams *could* still make it.)
Utah averages 112 points a game but scored 131 against the lakers. They shot 52% from the field and 37% from three, much better than their normal 46% and 35%. Somehow, I don’t think this was totally shooting luck
“It was less than two basketball and calendar years ago that in the playoffs they demolished the team they’ve now, by all accounts, fallen behind. It’s hard not to see at least some level of stagnation and treading water in that”
Why the infatuation with the Cavaliers as the yardstick? Two basketball years ago after 54 games they were 32-22 and we were 28-26, an improvement of 12 games versus ours of 8. But if you widen the yardstick to include the top 8 teams in the East as of today, after a similar amount of games, Detroit leads by a +15 improvement, followed by the Cavs, then us, Pacers at +6, Magic at +4, Celtics flat, with the Heat and Bucks regressing. I am as frustrated as anyone with some of our performances but the last two years has zero whiff of stagnation.
Sacramento brings in Markelle Fultz, former #1 overall pick?
A third consecutive second-round loss, after blowing through the asset chest and turning over a bunch of the roster, would be the virtual textbook definition of “stagnation.”
JB’s an excellent coach, has done a terrific job with the Pistons.
Everybody loves KAT and is rooting hard for him … but …
Regular season: 24.4/11.7/3.4/1.9 stocks per 36, on .524/.401/.842
Playoffs (*): 18.8/10.2/2.4/1.48 stocks per 36, on .468/.350/.824 (32 games).
That can’t happen this spring.
Hate to be looking for storm clouds, but game time’s coming up soon — as is decision time. If we’re Rorschach testing, as per Macri, let’s do it. This is a gargantuan playoff season for this team, roster, and coach.
(*) Virtually all in his prime.
Before you stagnate you sort of have to, you know, stagnate.
Let’s not get Doogie involved, but there’s “some level of stagnation now,” not full-on stagnation.
I’ll continue to dissent from the idea that we need to wait for the projected thing to actually happen before commenting on it.
They’re projected, pretty soundly, to have their third straight second-round loss this spring. Priors only change if they beat the Cavs or Celts with those teams at full strength.
In a sense the 2023 second round loss understates it, since Randle was banged up. (So was Grimes and he laid brick the entire Miami series.)
During the actual games it’s super frustrating at times to watch but when the games are over and I look back at the highlights this really is a super fun team to root for. The lack of defense definitely makes the games more entertaining although at times I’d gladly settle for boring blowouts.
Because RJ supposedly had a good series against them (he really didn’t) so E can pretend that trading RJ for OG was actually bad and is the reason we’ll supposedly never make it out of the 2nd round.
So the Cavs get judged in regular season improvement and the Knicks only get judged in playoff performance. So if the Knicks lose to Boston in 6 in the Semis and Cavs lose in 5 in the ECF who had the better year or more importantly who has the better team?
I don’t see it that way at all. Everything points to next season for us. This playoff season is just a prelude.
KAT does stuff offensively that feels like it should be impossible for any player in a Knick uniform to do, based on watching this team going back to the Riley years. (Though again, if Ewing had been raised in a 5-out world, he likely would have been great from downtown.) JB is magic out there. The sheer smarts of Hart, and to an extent Mikal, are a pleasure to see. OJ’s game is very aesthetically pleasing except when he is putting the ball on the floor. And other guys like Deuce, Precious, and Payne will all go on entertaining heaters every few games. “Super fun team to watch” is exactly right for me. It’s just a very different kind of super fun from what we’ve grown used to, even in the good times for this franchise.
Totally agree. We made two huge trades this past summer, hopefully we can use this summer to add a couple of bench pieces around them.
Some people say this Boston team is among the all-time greats. If we lose, we tip our cap and hope they age out or Dadiet becomes a superstar during the off-season.
We assembled a good team, though I’m not sure it’s truly a great one, and that’s about all you can do. The Knicks can’t stop Brooklyn from paying triple market price for expired Boston goods nor can they stop the Clippers from doing the same for Paul George (who went 1-7 for 2pts last night!?!). Hopefully we find a buyer as dumb as those for KAT, Brunson, et al., when the run is over.
I’m a ranking member of the minutes police and I have no issue with the minutes last night. It was a close game we wanted win and everyone is on the all-star break now. So everyone can freshen up.
The Pacers game was worse. We were in control but he played a couple of guys that were already beat up extra minutes and then put Brunson back in the game when it was already bascially over even though he knew we were on a B2B.
He doesn’t understand risk reward.
Injuring or breaking down a player can be catastrophic to the season.
Blowing a big lead sucks, but it’s rarely very significant.
So even if blowing a game happens more frequently (and I’m not even sure it does in many cases when Thibs is playing important players), the downsides are very different and have to considered. Thibs doesn’t seem to understand that part of the equation.
The place where I’m hanging my hat, Rorschach test-wise (didn’t he play for the Hawks last night?) is the almost daily “Hasn’t been done in 30 years” factoid that turns up. Whether it’s our won-lost record (quite literally the opposite of stagnation), 40-10s, 40/30s, 40/40s, and on and on.
I know it’s only two thirds of the season, but we’re better than we have been in decades in so many ways. Still hated the game last night, though, especially the defense.
I loved Baugh in SL. His defense was something else against that competition. His big problem is his shooting. It’ll be interesting to see how his defense and passing translates.
I don’t think Lakers fans (or the media) fully comprehend that the Lakers had a bad defense before the trade, they traded away their best defender and a young player that also defends, added a negative defender and have no legitimate starting C. I’m not sure how you contend with that team,
They have the potential for a powerhouse offense, but Luka, Lebron and Reaves all do their best work with the ball in their hands (especially Luka). Someone is going to get fewer touches and have to sacrifice boxscore stats.
I’m upset that Davis got hurt. I was dying to see Dallas as currently constructed. I think they are VERY good.
Long term, the Lakers got the best if it because of the age difference, but for this year imo Dallas would have been the better team if Davis was still healthy.
If there is any “stagnation” from last year to this year (I think we are a bit better this year) it’s because we lost I-Hart for nothing. Losing him for nothing meant we had to improve quite a bit in other ways just to break even. That we did is quite an accomplsiment for Leon. Now we have to see what Mitch adds to the mix.
Elfrid Payton starting at point guard, Taj playing 21 solid minutes and going 10-12, and Obi going off for 31-10 feels like Palm Springs or something.
Also Grimes got 30.
Meanwhile, Paul George plays 36 minutes and is 1-7 for 2 points. Which I guess is better than DaQuan Jeffries playing 26 minutes and scoring zero, but not by much.
George looks completely uninterested. I wonder how long until Sixer fans boo him.
I don’t think the Lakers made that deal to win this year, or if they did they at least understood when they nixed that deal for a center they weren’t going to win this year.
DRedsays:
June 30, 2024 at 16:24
Paul George and Philly fans seem like a terrible mix but I guess that’s really none of my business
Well that’s certainly true last night about the Lakers, as Jimmy et al. lost to a Dallas team starting Kessler Edwards (1.9 pts/g this season) and someone named Olivier-Maxence Prosper, who sounds like an 18th century barrister.
You made me think that Taj shot 10-for-12 last night for over 20 points. That would have been amazing, of course, but although what he did last night wasn’t quite to that level…….it was indeed quite good.
I was going to post about Kessler Edwards but that’s a bit I have been going to a bit often lately
to me…to keep reiterating that we “lost ihart for nothing”…is cherry picking…we got Brunson (one of the best players in the league) for something like “nothing” given he took way below market/team friendly deal…it is debatable if Leon leveraged that (similar to overcoming ihart) sufficiently/efficiently..time will tell…but i think solely focusing on the ihart defection is a narrow view.
The organization was probably focused more on the long term than short term. I think everyone understands that part of the deal. But media, fans and even gamblers acted as if this was a huge plus for the Lakers this year too. The odds on the Lakers came way down (moved back up a little).
They turfed a lottery pick to get the guy, so he counts on the stagnation flow chart.
Leon didn’t give him the third year, gave up a bunch to get him, didn’t properly invest in his upside. Let’s stop treating his loss as some kind of exogenous, force majeure event. It fully and entirely “counts.”
I was commenting strictly on last year vs this year (supposed stagnation).
When you lose a key piece like I-Hart for nothing and your other C (Mitch) is out but you still have a better record than last year, you did something else very right in the off season.
They have to decide whether to extend Mikal this summer. (To a degree, KAT as well, though as some have speculated, that isn’t necessarily pressing business.)
This organization is long past the point where the number of Thibs Wins ground out by Thibs in the regular season means anything.
They were the two seed in the East last year. This year they project to the three. That isn’t progress; it’s the S word.
A reminder: In 2021-22, Utah was third in SRS, third in pythag wins, first in ORat. Year-end teardown.
Death by the S word. The Knicks are damn fun and maybe just maybe Thibs has another gear… he showed one mid season last year as they rebuilt the offense around Brunson mid season. Mitch is a proven NBA talent that might be healthy enough to change what’s a good thing into a very good thing.
A reminder: In 2021-22, Utah was third in SRS, third in pythag wins, first in ORat. Year-end teardown.
In legal terms if you cite the Utah team as a precedent your client loses. First, there were chemistry issues which do not exist in the current case. Second, two and a half years in, they are 13-40 so the rebuild is likely significantly behind schedule. Third, their draft asset haul is looking diminished as the Cavs 2028 swap and the T-Wolves unprotected have eroded in value. And fourth, they had a multi year run as a core before before the teardown.
Utah may be the poster child for rebutting the solution that a teardown is the solution to second tier stagnation.
Increasingly annoying.
I can’t say I hated the trade at the time bc a) I was excited about Bojan, and b) it was obvious Grimes pissed off Thibs and there was no coming back from it.
But I was pissed off at the time when we started shopping Grimes in the first place. He and Obi were too perfectly (dare I say) cromulent bench pieces that would be incredibly valuable to us right now if we still had them. And we have nothing to show for giving away either of them.
Any talk of stagnation is premature when the playoffs haven’t even happened yet.
I see we have a new annoying, stupid word of the day at Knickerblogger.
Think of it not as “precedent,” but instead as “proper scope of the planning purposes’ Overton window if things don’t go well this spring.”
“And fourth, they had a multi year run as a core before before the teardown.”
This situation’s worse though because this will be the second group they’ve put around their tentpole superstar — and it hasn’t moved the needle. Worse, this group is more expensive, less deep, older, more top heavy and cost the team almost all of its draft picks.
“Grimes and Obi were too perfectly (dare I say) cromulent bench pieces that would be incredibly valuable to us right now if we still had them. And we have nothing to show for giving away either of them.”
They had a deep, young excellent bench and a young roster with upside, that steamrolled the Cavs in the playoffs — and turfed it. Simple reality. Needs to pay off this spring. If it doesn’t, Leon whiffed pretty badly. Losing to those selfsame Cavs with this pricey, older roster after depleting the asset chest would be … not a great look.
Is the claim here that Leon doesn’t have a plan at the ready for the possible scenario this spring of “losing in the first or badly in the second round”?
The hope and expectation would be that he’s planning and looking ahead more effectively than that.
We traded Julius Randle, Donte DiVincenzo, and 6 first round picks this offseason.
I agree. I think fans also forget the in 2022-2023 Dallas had Doncíc but were so bad they were at the edge of the playin and tanked to get out of the playin and keep their draft pick. They got better after Nico acquired defensive players to play along with Doncic. The Lakers have a nice record so far but most of the teams below them got better, and now they are losing to Utah. We’ll see what happens for the rest of the season.
Philosophically, this is little different than Isiah — trade away all the young risky guys and all the draft picks for “stars,” fast forward everything and put your future at massive risk to get your sugar now, right now.
Execution’s clearly been better. Having a family relationship with Jalen Brunson covers up a lot of things.
That same exact roster couldn’t throw the ball in the ocean when they played the Heat in the next round. Come to think of it, I’m pretty sure the offense tanked against the Cavs, too.
I don’t understand why you keep harping on that team. It was all Brunson and Mitch. Improvements definitely needed to be made.
Grimes was hurt, Randle was hurt, Quickley was hurt, and Thibs relied on hustlebunny too much. Josh Hart runs very hot and cold, that’s his nature and he was very cold against Miami.
Their defense was *way* better. I’m indifferent as to whether they win with offense or defense.
Thibs is an exceptional coach. He puts the team in great position in the playoffs because he coaches to win every night, and he leads the team to regular season records as good as any coach who ever lived would have given the same roster.
The problem with that is, there is no second gear to go to in the playoffs, and the warts of the roster are exposed.
Allowing for injury:
We lost to ATL in 2022 because they had the better roster (the team that beat us went on to the ECFs)
We lost to MIA in 2023 because they had the better roster (our best player was injured and hobbled through the series. The team that beat us went on to beat the C’s and get to the finals)
We lost to IND in 2024 because they had the better roster. (we were decimated by injury by the end of that series)
When we get to the playoffs this year, we will not have the best roster. Probably not the second best either. Our two best players are bad on D and one of them is prone to being exploited by smart teams. Every one of our starters has an exploitable weakness, and Boston exposed those weaknesses relatively effortlessly. Our bench is so-so.
Now shit can happen. Key injuries, 3pt variance, or other X-factor stuff. The puncher’s chance thing is definitely a thing.
But Boston beat us (and everyone else) to the punch when they turned Marcus Smart, Malcolm Brogdan, and Timelord into Jrue Holiday and Kristaps Porzingis. They are definitely smarter and tougher and probably more talented than we are (and everyone else.) At mutual full strength, I don’t see any possible way to beat them in a 7-game series. Not this year.
That’s not a slight to Leon or Thibs or any of our players. Mistakes have been made, but brilliant out of the blue moves have been made as well.
There are still moves that can be made, and trading DDV gives me hope that Leon will not become too attached to a narrative or a player to make a bold move involving current core players. I think all of Brunson, KAT, Mikal, OG, Hart, and Deuce are capable of playing as well as they are now for several years. But I don’t see that as a championship core. I think we are another bold move or two away. I doubt that another coach brings us closer to a championship than Thibs, and it’s possible that a coaching change will be a step back, so I’m good with him going forward until Leon thinks it’s time to move on. I don’t think there’s a magic bullet there.
BTW I think we are in reasonably similar position to where the Cavs were post-Spida trade. They definitely had more room for internal improvement, but it’s the moves around the edges since that trade that have made the biggest difference for them. Still, I don’t think they give the Celts any more of a competitive series than we do, and then what for them? Will they need to move on from Garland?
Bottom line:
Then it’s not worth investing top, retail dollar in. (And wasn’t worth depleting the asset chest for.)
Are you advocating a regime change?
RJ Barrett, Obi Toppin, Immanuel Quickley, and Quentin Grimes are all materially better players now than they were in May 2023. Given their ages and skill sets at the time, that was the reasonable, baseline expectation.
They had Randle and DDV (*) and the pick used for KAT. They also had the five picks they squandered for Mikal that could have been used way more effectively.
Leon botched it, simple as that. (**)
But maybe they’ll go on a run this spring and make this look stupid. We’ll see. It would be against expectation and the run of form.
(*) Once you assume the Obi for DDV swap.
(**) I’m actually willing to give him some slack because I think it’s eminently possible Dolan told him it was time to finally “cash in” the draft picks.
So what’s next?
“Then it’s not worth investing top, retail dollar in. (And wasn’t worth depleting the asset chest for.)”
Likely not, but it is what it is. I’m willing to wait and see how things play out as the playoffs come around, and then judge from there. That has been my firm position since the KAT trade, i.e. the regular season is pretty meaningless in terms of judging this roster’s ceiling. We can speculate about it, but we won’t really know for sure until May or June.
After that, It becomes a matter of how much value our remaining assets, including the players on the roster, will have in making further modifications. For example, I don’t think Mikal can ever bring back a package like the one we gave up for him, but he could be a valuable asset in a trade. So could OG, Hart, Deuce, and yes, even KAT. Brunson is not going anywhere, his number is destined for the rafters, but theoretically he would bring back quite a haul. So the notion that we are bereft of assets is not really a thing. There are many picks locked up in these players and their contracts.
I don’t think these guys are going to lose any value for the next 3-4 years. And in 2 years, we will have a tradeable unprotected pick, maybe more if Leon gets crafty in the trade market.
An E thread hijack. Who saw that coming?
The young core we had in place with RJ Barrett, Quentin Grimes, Immanuel Quickley, Obi Toppin et al was defiantly mediocre. I can be upset about the opportunity cost of putting the KAT-Bridges-OG Knicks team together and wish that we had made some different choices, but that’s absurd to think that middling core of non-star players was going to lead us anywhere.
Those guys are all mid. Zero stars in that group. A couple of second division starters and some journeyman bench players. That was not much of a core to build around and to suggest that it was is just very silly. I may not be thrilled that we appear to be topping out at something less than “perennial title contender,” but I’m not going to delude myself that the RJ Barrett-Quentin Grimes-Obi Toppin Knicks were ever going to amount to anything.
The roster would have been supplemented, including with KAT. It wouldn’t have just stopped in 2023, why would it?
It also had Jalen Brunson. That’s the star. So’s KAT.
“RJ Barrett-Quentin Grimes-Obi Toppin Knicks were ever going to amount to anything.”
They already had. But it was the Jalen Brunson Knicks.
I didn’t, actually. It’s typically only after a loss.
I just think Grimes would be nice to have right now. And I’ve always been bummed we stuck Obi in the corner for 3 years and got mad at him for not being Taj Gibson.
I’m not yearning for the ‘23 Knicks to come back. And I have not missed RJ Barrett for one second.
True, but that was so close to a loss that apparently the thread gods count it as one.
I’m not really either; it’s just that it would have been a better idea than what actually happened. I’d rather have those guys and KAT and the draft picks/asset chest than what’s currently possessed, little question about it.
That team would have the best bench in the NBA. As opposed to … well … this.
I’ve always liked Grimes, but he was always capable of a 30-pt game without it being meaningful in any way about his standing in the world of the NBA. Similar to the fact that the last pair of Knicks to score 40 and 30 in a game was Obi and Quick (I remember that game, end of the season, gave me such hope… nope…).
No, the claim is that acting like we’ve stagnated when we’re, in fact, on pace to win more regular season games than last year, is a ridiculous claim to make, especially before a single playoff game has been played.
Every year you make the playoffs, you run the risk of losing in the 1st or 2nd round.
Plenty of teams have “stagnated” for a season or 2 before winning a title. How many 50 win, first or second round, teams did Dirk have in Dallas before they won a title? Boston lost in the first round a few years back.
Leon doesn’t need a plan right now. All of that can be discussed in the off season. Even if we win the chip this year (still very possible) Leon will probably tinker and make chances this off season.
I don’t see any way that holding on to IQ, RJ, or Obi would have a positive impact on our current roster, cap situation, or draft asset situation. Personally I don’t miss any of those guys and wouldn’t want any of them on their current deals. (for those who didn’t notice, the way Hustlebunny Hart sliced and diced Obi into tiny little pieces the other night was comical! And a few weeks ago, OG destructed RJ on both ends down the stretch of a close game.)
The Grimes trade was unfortunate, but didn’t seem to move the needle all that much.
E can continue to wring his hands on what might have been, although my guess is that most here find that tedious at best and more likely misguided. But hey, E gonna E!
As liminal spaces go, the state of the franchise is not so bad. As far as what I am looking forward to post ASB… OG and Mikal funneling initiators into a defensive big that they can trust. Perhaps our 3pt defense improves…
Happy National Internet Friends Day to you all!
(I saw it on my insta feed, apparently it’s real)
“OG and Mikal funneling initiators into a defensive big that they can trust.”
AAAGH! NOT THE F WORD!!!!!
I definitely miss Grimes and Quick.
I did think that Bojan and Burks would play better than they did. If we were healthy, we had a very competitive team last year.
I do think the contracts had something to do with the Quickley & Grimes moves. Both were fantastic value on rookie deals, but at fair value on their second deals was going to be an issue, especially as neither were starting.
Leon pulled Hart and DDV out of thin air. If he can do that again, and there’s no reason to think he can’t, our bench is suddenly much better, the minutes distribution improves, and this is a 58-60 win team, aka a top contender.
Actually he used a first round pick and the MLE, neither of which he has access to any more bc he overpaid for his wing stoppers.
RJ had 27 last night on 18 shots against CLE, Garland/Spida/Strus were 17-42.
In the ten games leading up to and including his concussion against the Clippers, the Raptors were 8-2 with wins over Boston, GS, and the Clippers. They had the best defensive rating in the NBA over that stretch.
OG’s a negative BPM player. Add Quickley to Barrett and there’s simply no doubt Toronto won the trade. The only defense Leon has is “fit” — stupid — and the saved money — shortsighted but at least colorable as a justification. It’s not even worthy of discussion anymore.
I mostly agree with Alan, but with a few notes:
It’s a LONG season — injuries are always possible, even likely, and that cuts both ways.
In the worst of worlds, we lose a key player near the Finals and we once again last into the first or second round. In the best of worlds, well, I don’t ever want to pray against the health of any NBA player. Especially Jayson Tatum. I wouldn’t want him out during the second round of the playoffs or anything.
Another positive — people are saying “this is the team we get” and “we have already gelled.” I don’t buy it. I think that we are seeing in the last weeks the evolution of Shamet, Huk, McBride, and especially Precious. So I think there is room for growth even with the roster we have, and with mitch coming back.
But then I think about the average age of OKC and the fact that they have about 437 1st Round Draft picks in storage, and I decide we’ll never again win another championship.
Quickley is 25 years old and is providing mediocre production at the beginning of a 5/162 contract. On the one hand, he hasn’t been healthy, but then on the other hand… he hasn’t been healthy. Love the kid, but HARD NO on that contract.
Grimes is on his fourth team and should be a perfectly fine journeyman bench player in the NBA. In some people’s minds he has apparently gone from Useless Low-Usage Hustlebunny to Really Valuable Guy for reasons that I think we can all see pretty clearly. Obi is an offense-only bench player on a mediocre team.
Dumb conversation here today.
“It’s not worthy of discussion anymore.”
Holding you to that…
Clank, Quickley, and Obi make roughly $71.3M this year. That’s more than half the salary cap.
This is for a guy the Raptors will almost certainly be looking to move because he’s not very good in Clank, a ~20 MPG player in Obi, and a beloved-but-decidedly-worse-than-Jalen-Brunson point guard in Quick.
That would’ve been a laughably bad way for us to use scarce resources and this is obvious to anyone not doing a bit.
This was the problem I had all along with our young core from a few years ago: you could do age-based projections on them and STILL see that that weren’t going to be amazing players even with further development time. RJ has seen some age-based improvement, and he’s still not really all that great. Obi and Grimes are bench players. Quickley maybe had the most upside, but was never a super high ceiling player.
It just wasn’t a very good young core and there’s no need to romanticize it.
On January 26 E got the day started by chopping up Clank’s season to try to argue that all of the Clankiness was just due to the absence of Scottie Barnes.
Clank proceeded to put up a .466 TS% on 26.7% USG in the 4 games from 1/27 to 2/2 when he got injured, so I assume those will get cropped out of our next arbitrary The Real RJ handful of games, even though the StarJ whisperer Scottie Barnes played in all of them.
He is not good, and for whatever mistakes Leon may have made, getting out of the Clank business is aging quite nicely.
The Knicks are 50-20 in games OG has played since joining the Knicks.
Leon doesn’t need to justify anything.
He’d be the best player on the Knick bench right now. You can squint and say Deuce is better but in any event, even if that’s the case, he’s better than everyone else.
He hasn’t gone to “RVG” to me, if that’s who you mean. He’s what he’s always been — decent to good 3&D bench guy. You’re obviously forgetting the peak mania over the guy where he was “untouchable” and had a “hidden toolbox” that freeing the team up from RJ Barrett was going to free up, and all the rest. Got to Dutch Tulip levels at its peak
And he rightly caught some flack from “some people” for his relentless bricklaying against Miami, which helped cost them a very winnable series.
That was in desperate need of pushback, and pushback it received. But Grimes has always been a perfectly cromulent to good energy 3&D bench piece. Wish he was still here. Squandered asset.
It wasn’t the core. It was part of the core/roster, pieces around the tentpole. They’d be better with them around JB and KAT than the guys they have even as we sit here today. Their bench is terrible and their defense stinks now.
Plus they’d have five extra first round draft picks. Whatever delta the new “moons” have around the stars above the old ones — none, really, but we can play along — isn’t close to worth the five 1s.
RJ had 7 points on 6 shots in the first Q vs. Cleveland, commanding Masai’s tank corp to a 41-17 deficit…but he had a heck of a game after that!
They were a hugely charming bunch, one of the most rootable group I can remember. (Well I didn’t like RJ that much, because his ego was clearly much bigger than his britches [or talent], which given NBA players as a standard is saying something, but he didn’t seem to be a bad kid).
But I’m pretty okay with “Best Knicks Team in 30 Years.” Trying to figure out how we might have held onto some bench players and still be this good seems a foolish way to spend time. Which is why I’m reminding you of your “It’s not worthy of discussion anymore.” Go ahead, stop it then.
The “hidden toolbox” and the “he was the 8th-rated recruit in the country” and “I can grok him being untouchable,” and “he might be the next Klay Thompson” were memory holed upon the Bogie trade with nearly the same alacrity as BPM upon the realization that OG’s was negative.
Same coin, different sides. The Party would have been quite proud of the effort.
It’s almost like he’s some sort of small long-eared mammal that hops around a lot and is known for its hustle
HustleBunny is a good name for a candy raver.
BPM is fine for evaluating guys like OG Anunoby whose value is perfectly captured by the box score, but it underrates defensive stalwarts like RJ Barrett.
This gonna be a miserable week until the Knicks start playing again…
The sort some of us can keep in proper perspective. Unfortunately, during the mania phase, Tom Thibodeau couldn’t.
I will say it’s kind of weird to just be kind of all “He’s a decent player, but let’s not get out of hand” for multiple years through multiple ridicules, including the “untouchable” phase, and then get ripped on the back end for continuing to say “He’s a decent player.”
He’s a decent player. Kind of quintessential low Tier 5 type. Plus young asset, some potential “championship equity” to use the Tier terminology. Leon squandered it. That’s all. Nothing really even controversial there.
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