[New York Post] – Wed, 24 Apr 2024 18:13:00 GMT
- Josh Hart slams ‘idiotic’ Philadelphia uproar over Villanova tweet praising Knicks stars
- The birth of the Nova Knicks
- Behind the ‘Nova Knicks that helped shape New York into a contender
- Villanova products come up as the real winners in the Knicks-Sixers series
- They Were a Bad NBA Team. So the Knicks Became a College One.
[New York Post] – Wed, 24 Apr 2024 17:43:00 GMT
- Mike Breen opens up about rare double ‘Bang’ call for Donte DiVincenzo’s heroic Knicks 3-pointer
- 76ers announcers pull off ultimate broadcasters jinx before Knicks’ wild comeback: ‘Job done’
- Q&A: Mike Breen on the History of the Double ‘Bang!’
- Watch the Jaw-Dropping Commentary from Sixers Broadcasters Who Thought Playoff Game Was in the Bag Before Knicks Miracle Comeback
- 76ers TV announcer jinxes team before Knicks miracle: ‘Job done’
[The Athletic] – Thu, 25 Apr 2024 10:05:34 GMT
NBA Playoffs odds, picks for Thursday: Magic-Cavs, 76ers-Knicks, Lakers-Nuggets
[USA TODAY] – Wed, 24 Apr 2024 12:19:10 GMT
One longtime Knicks fan is watching their playoff run from prison
[The Philadelphia Inquirer] – Wed, 24 Apr 2024 17:44:12 GMT
De’Anthony Melton says he’s ready to return for the Sixers
[Sports Illustrated] – Wed, 24 Apr 2024 11:23:23 GMT
- Knicks’ Josh Hart Lands Sweet Endorsement?
- NBA’s Josh Hart Gets Vow From Mike And Ike, We’ll Keep Him ‘Well-Stocked!’
- ‘Mike and Ike’ Candy Co. Working On Partnership with Knicks’ Josh Hart
- Knicks’ Josh Hart Had Everyone Laughing With Awkward Postgame Candy Moment
- Unlike LeBron James or Stephen Curry, Knicks’ Josh Hart’s Unusual Pre-Game Routine Might Land Him a Deal With $301 Million Co.
[Piston Powered] – Wed, 24 Apr 2024 16:00:00 GMT
Detroit Pistons need to follow this playoff blueprint
[Daily Knicks] – Wed, 24 Apr 2024 18:05:00 GMT
Television host has bogus belief that Knicks should trade for despised superstar
[New York Post] – Thu, 25 Apr 2024 06:21:00 GMT
- Knicks looking to end slow playoff starts: ‘got to try to punk first’
- Julius Erving’s Urgent Message to Joel Embiid, Sixers Ahead of Game 3 vs. Knicks
- Dr. J’s Simple Message for Joel Embiid, 76ers to Forget About Game 2 Collapse
- Knicks prepared for hostile Philly playoff environment in Game 3: ‘We’ve been in tough environments where we’ve won’
- Was Monday’s Game 2 loss one of the worst in Sixers history? It depends what happens next
110 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2024.04.25)”
I have basically been OD’ing on podcast content leading up to Game 3 tonight… and one common theme is how evenly matched these teams are, and how both G1 and G2 could have gone either way…. and it made me think of this:
“Josh is just a winner,” Kerr said. “People ask ‘what position does he play?’ He plays winner. I don’t know what position he plays, but he gets loose balls and guards anybody. At one point (USA assistant coach Erik Spoelstra) turned to me and said ‘some people get 50-50 balls, but he gets the 30-70 balls.”
Now of course everything may change tonight and the narrative could feel completely different, but that is how I feel about this team – when the chips are down, we will get the loose balls, go the extra mile, etc to make sure we get the win.
One interesting stat, and I wish I could break this down by lineups – but Knicks were 2nd in the league in clutch time rebound rate at 56.3% (and 3rd in ORB% at 41.5%) — as compared with an overall rebound rate of 52.7% and ORB% 33.3%.
Philly was 22nd in the league in overall rebound rate (49.3%) and 25th in defensive rebound rate (70.1%). Move to clutch time and Philly’s overall rebound rate drops to 47.8% and defensive rebound rate drops to 64.7%.
To make it more clear:
Knicks TRB% goes from 52.7% overall to 56.3% in clutch time
Knicks ORB% goes from 33.3% overall to 41.5% in clutch time
Sixers TRB% goes from 49.3% overall to 47.8% in clutch time
Sixers DRB% goes from 70.1% overall to 64.7% in clutch time.
Without breaking down by lineup, it’s hard to know exactly what to make of this (+/- Embiid, +/- Randle, +/- Hart etc) but on first glance – it is not surprising at all that we seem to come up with all the loose balls when the game gets tight.
(in the 4Q of Game 1, Philly had 5 total rebounds – 1 O, 4 D. Knicks had 16 rebounds, 8 and 8 — just unreal).
The fact that Embiid is not very mobile is helping us on the boards.
When you look at our players and compare them to some of the other top teams, at first glance it’s hard to understand why we do so well. But we are so good at winning the possessions part of the game with hustle we can overcome small deficits in other areas. It’s rebounds, loose balls, creating TOs, keeping our TO’s down, blocked shots etc… Overall we often have an edge there.
Big night tonight: NFL draft!
Hot take: I like Bo Nix better than McCarthy.
Yes, absolutely. So often the difference between an efficient shooting night and a below average one is 2 or 3 shots that go in or miss. The rebounding and getting 50-50 balls can make up for that difference. It’s also subject to luck or game-to-game fluctuation, but perhaps less so because it is more directly related to effort (and skill, like being tall, fast and jumping high).
In other news, I’m so glad Chet is doing well in the playoffs. I was worried that his physicality would be somewhat exposed and that the discourse would be that the Thunder needs rim protection (aka I-Hart).
The one team that worries me still is Detroit, as there were rumours that they might be interested in Claxton (and if you want Claxton, why not get I-Hart). Orlando will need to get shooting, so I think they are off the board.
iHart needs to have a hart to hart with Bogey and Burks about life in Detroit. And reach out to Grimes to find out how hart he finds it there.
Seems to me that from the very beginning of the Leon era, the MO has been to follow the Miami team-building blueprint. Start with an excellent coach and build a high IQ team/high-hustle team. Draft older players who are ready to contribute right away or don’t draft at all. Build a winning culture.
There have been mistakes along the way. Thibs is not Spo, either in perception among players or acumen. More skill is needed. Brunson is amazing but he’s not Jokic or Doncic or SGA. The roster is playing at its maximum competenecy level, i.e. there are no young players to dream on.
But the fact that the team has made the playoffs in 3 of four years, has been to the second round, has won 50 games despite an injury-riddled season, that pundits are taking the team seriously as a dark horse contender, and that there are many rounds still in the chamber, should put the notion that you need Riley and Spo to make that approach work to bed for good. Leon has done it, plain and simple.
The downside is that as competitive as we are, it is unlikely that we will ever have a homegrown immortal like Wemby to dream on during Leon’s tenure. But watching Jaime Jaquez Jr. carve up the Celts last night was pretty cool. Hopefully Leon’s learning curve will continue and he will catch up in the draft realm.
In the meantime, I’m loving every minute of watching Knicks Culture winning the 50-50 ball battle night after night after night. Just like I loved watching the undermanned Heat show the Celtics that they weren’t invincible…that they could be beaten by a team that showed grit and hustle and smarts and teamwork, and where every player played to his full potential. If we do that tonight, we will win no matter how much Nurse’s and Embiid’s whining skew the way the game is called. Hopefully the thousands of Knicks fans in attendance will drown out the home fans with Brunson MVP chants as they skulk out of the arena.
Josh Hart just has a really good — extraordinarily good — feel for where the ball is, where the other players on the court are, where the ball’s going to be, where the other people are going to go and when. It’s not just anticipation, it’s also phenomenal spacial recognition.(*) “Being in the right place at the right time” isn’t remotely random or accidental — it’s a skill.
(I do have some experience with the skill; it was one of my top ones in my days at Podunk High and then into IM sports later. It really helps when you play safety in (non-contact) football, reading the QB and receivers and trying to anticipate what’s going to happen. The point here isn’t me; it’s Josh Hart and real athletes and giving at least some context to the validity of this as a skill that separates even elite athletes from each other. Josh is extraordinary at it. He plays hard, to be sure, but when you both play hard and have a fantastic feel for the ball and your surroundings, it makes it look like you’re playing *really* hard.)
(*) There’s actually part of it that could rightly be called “people skills” — after all, the judgments and anticipations being made are about other human beings.
“And reach out to Grimes to find out how hart he finds it there.”
How hart he finds it there (in Detroit)? Huh? I mean, I get “hart to hart,” but “find out how hart”? 🙂
That’s a great point about Chet, Marechal. Valanciunas is a mountain, too. If he can hold up against him, the Thunder are unlikely to think that’s a need they need to address.
I’m probably in the minority and maybe I’m dead wrong, but I expect both OG and I-Hart to re-sign with the Knicks and for less than the feared 60M (combined).
Fingers crossed.
I hate the Heat (and I hate the Celtics), but I was mesmerized during yesterday’s game.
Yes, they shot unbelievably well from three, but it’s not the first time (as Z-Man wrote) and putting a smaller player on KP, allowing Bam to roam everywhere was a great tactical move.
Spo did run circles around Mazzulla, he drawn the game plan perfectly, adapted quickly as the game went on, and the players executed it to perfection.
With Jimmy and Rozier out the talent gap is gigantic and this will probably end in 5 games, but it was an admirable display.
To your point Max, you would think players would consider more the team situation than the max $$ they could get elsewhere. I mean, what’s the difference to a player’s lifestyle between say, $25 MM a year vs. $30MM?
I would guess there’s a competitive aspect to salaries between players (and agents obviously drive a lot of the negotiations) but why wouldn’t I-Hart take less to be in a city that loves him, play in MSG and I’m sure his wife kinda likes being in NYC from a career standpoint.
But maybe I’m just being naive….
OG has not really looked the part of a 30-35MM/year player so far, but my sense is that anything less than that risks him getting poached by Philly.
iHart will come back for a Mitch-ish contract… I think he understands how good he has it here, and his wife for sure wants to stay in the big city.
Detroit signing him would be super hilarious. Maybe an all-center lineup?
Given our trouble with KP this season, I wonder if Thibs might try that if we both make it to ECF. Problem is, we need OG to stay on Tatum or Brown. Hart? Deuce?!?!
Re: the free agents to be
I am optimistic even if I don’t think they’ll be cheap…
OG will probabily get his 32M-35M* and I-Hart around the higher amount we can give him (16M-17M?).
I suppose there’s an under the table pact with OG (otherwise I don’t think they would’ve traded for him) and I-Hart loves (and he’s beloved) here, have you seen him at the end of the last game?
Can you imagine him going to a team that won 14 games for a couple millions more?
* To me the 76ers, freeing Harris cap space, are the real risk
“Josh Hart just has a really good — extraordinarily good — feel for where the ball is, where the other players on the court are, where the ball’s going to be, where the other people are going to go and when. It’s not just anticipation, it’s also phenomenal spacial recognition.(*) “Being in the right place at the right time” isn’t remotely random or accidental — it’s a skill.”
This is true, but that skill is magnified by his motor. He’s in phenomenal shape and is as quick twitch as they come. He not only recognizes, he gets there first.
I don’t think he’s alone in that regard as the Knicks go…iHart made two plays down the stretch that epitomized that, so did DDV. Brunson’s drawing of offensive fouls requires that skill. OG is another poster child for intangibles.
It seems to be something that the braintrust values. IQ and Grimes both had a high level of processing the game. Deuce makes those kinds of plays.
In a way, it represents a lower-cost appproach to building a winning team. These guys tend to be undervalued in the marketplace. You could argue that guys like Derrick White, Draymond Green, Caleb Martin, Trevor Ariza, etc. are fundamental to winning on a high level. In the Knicks case, they are seemingly taking what the market gives them, prioritizing value towards winning over star power in and of itself.
This is the opposite of what Miami does, though. They’ve built this team by selecting young, raw talent.
2017 – Bam – 19 year old freshman
2019 – Herro – 19 year old freshman
2020 – Precious – 20 year old freshman
2021 – no first round pick
2022 – Jovic – 18 year old int’l prospect
2023 – Jacquez Jr – the first upperclassman the Heat drafted since 2005
Leon’s reluctance to draft young talent is a trait that is unique to him, and it’s still his biggest weakness.
Our secret nuclear weapon: Alec Burks!
That’s why Thibs is keeping him undercover… 😉
That and putting KP in the PR on defense have been the strategies against him for awhile. In NY and Dallas he hadn’t honed his post skills to the point where he could use his size advantage over a smaller player. Plus, in Dallas he was also playing with a usage hog he didn’t get along with. But since the Wizards and now Boston he’s been punishing smaller players in the post badly. I didn’t see much of last night’s game other than seeing he didn’t shoot often or well, but I’m surprised if they were putting a small guy on KP he wasn’t able to do much unless help was coming quickly.
Interesting from Kevin Pelton here:
If we assume the position that Brunson is not broken, then tonight should be his coming out party. My sweep pick was based on this being our best game of the series, and I’m feeling pretty good about it with that in mind.
That’s fair, Hubert. However, Leon has drafted the following players:
Obi: Older
IQ: Sophomore
Grimes: Sophomore
Rokas: teenager
Deuce: Sophomore
Sims: Senior
Keels: Freshman
It’s sort of a mix of younger and older. There were also rumors of them coveting specific younger players like Maxey and Ivey. But my point was overstated.
Still, the Heat did not have first round picks in 2016, 2018, and 2021. Riley himself has made statements about how he doesn’t value draft picks as highly as other executives.
I should have said that neither team prioritizes the draft as much as other teams engaging in the rebuild process. I would also say that despite what is perceived as a weakness, the team is neck-and-neck with the Heat right now.
Knicks down to 14-1 to win it all, fourth best in the league.
Yesterday the Post had an article about the draft status of our rotation, no lottery picks and 4 second rounders. The thesis was overachieving, but it also applies to the FO valuation of relevant analytics over potential. As a fan would rather the latter in a vacuum, but as long as the former gets us players early enough in their career that we can call our own, happy with it (ie, no KD!!).
Frank, that’s an incredible stat pull! It’s hard to think of a number that embodies the difference between the two teams through the first two games better than that. When it’s nut crunching time, we’ve had an extra gear.
Relatedly, as someone who was in favor of the trade initially but was open to being convinced otherwise, I consider the verdict on the Josh Hart trade to be final. For a late first in a draft that has yet to produce a clear rotation player picked 23rd or later, we got a guy who decides playoff series.
Leon has made mistakes–if everything else was the same and we had Jalen Johnson, our position would be materially better–but that trade was a masterclass.
I think the best way to square it, Z-Man, is that Leon’s proved he can be an excellent GM despite fucking up the draft. You were right: my early belief that his draft bumblings would be a portent of general failure were completely wrong. But I don’t think that leads to the conclusion his approach to it is ok.
Despite Pat Riley’s quotes, for instance, that is a man who prioritizes the draft. 80% of their starting lineup last night was one of his first round picks. And when he doesn’t use a pick, he gets it weight in gold as a return.
The 2016 pick you mention was part of the LeBron James sign & trade. His 2018 and 2021 draft picks were traded for 6 years of Goran Dragic as his starting PG. Those are outstanding returns for giving up a pick.
The 2016 pick you mention was part of the LeBron James sign & trade.
Hold it Hubie. Are you suggesting that our trading a six year 1st for Stephon in 2004 was inferior to trading a six year 1st for LeBron in 2010?
Now that you’ve rendered your verdict can you stop trolling every game thread talking about it? 😉
I personally don’t share your confidence despite my massive appreciation for him. Last year he decided a playoff series in the wrong way when the Heat ignored him for 6 games and it suffocated our offense. I’m glad he’s made the Sixers pay through 2 games so far but there’s still a good chance this same strategy will be our doom again.
I’ve not seen the trade market yield a first round pick for a non shooter very often in the last decade, let alone a non shooter who is a pending free agent. Josh Hart’s market value was probably a second round pick last year. It’s wonderful that you’re very happy with something we paid too much for, but it doesn’t mean you were right about the valuation.
Thibs will never do it because it’s not part of his philosophy, I think, but I’m going to dream about Hart guarding KP now. It would be awesome.
Yeahhhh…my lady is gonna have hell with me tonight. I will not talk or text, and whether she comes here or I go there- I’m finna have 2 TV’s rollin. Draft on one, game 3 on the other LOL
I’m just not gonna talk about my NFL Fandom here because I think I might dislike them right now as much as many of you do- ESPECIALLY if they do stupid shit in the draft with the lack of good draft capital they have.
Yeah..being a Marylander, my Fandom is all over the place. The only local teams I’ve ever liked are the Hoyas and the Mystics. Though- if Delle Donne leaves, I probably won’t follow the Mystics anymore either. I kinda half follow the Caps too, but that’s an Ovie thing. That guy has been my favorite player since Gretzky
I think Fred Katz mentioned that Brunson has only been shooting off the dribble (I think he’s attempted 2 shots off the catch). idk how much that’s on him and how much that’s on scheme and the Sixers defense, but it would be good to get him more attempts.
Have to go to dinner with my wife and her friends tonight and yes, I agreed to it a month ago, but I feel a little raw about the situation. Being up 2-0 and it being a trap game and Hubie having damaged our chances so much by predicting the sweep, makes this one that maybe I am ok to miss.
But I hate missing it.
Went to dinner last night with a buddy who was at Game 2. Said the Garden has never been as loud as it was when DDV dropped that second three.
We were musing about it. It’s amazing how good the crowd at MSG is in the playoffs considering how insanely expensive the tickets are. There has to be a lot of turnover from the regulars, but maybe not, I don’t know.
Philly fans stink. That’s the one thing you can always count on.
Lat year after the Hart trade the knicks were 17-8. Before his arrival. they were 30-27. This year with crippling injuries they were 50-32 with Hart playing >30 mpg. His impact on this team’s predilection for winning is substantial.
People tend to want to go down with the ship here with opinions even when confronted with reams of evidence to the contrary. To say Hart isn’t worth a low first round pick and he is some sort of overpay just tortures reason.
I had a friend who ran the mortgage backed desk at CS First Boston a decade ago who used to say, “In business, we keep score with money!” Well, in sports, a player’s value is determined by his impact on winning. Hart’s impact on winning is far beyond the cost of a late first round pick, no matter how you slice it.
This is hardly a trap game when the Knicks are the dogs…
Fun romp through the Boston Globe this morning. Lots of shitting on Mazzula, although almost all if it only about his arrogance and not doing anything different and leaving Miami to shoot threes, nothing about the change with Bam. Did mention this:
“And a swarming Miami defense that turned Kristaps Porzingis into a major liability (minus 32 in his 30 minutes) and limited the Celtics’ 3-point looks was the perfect response to turn this into a series.”
Also this is nice to bask in:
“It’s not inexcusable for the Celtics to have an off night and lose, but it is inexcusable to fail to make adjustments and allow Spoelstra to completely change the perception of the Celtics and their title chances with a 48-minute masterpiece.”
Sure, but there was only 1 guy drafted by Miami that was part of their Finals rotation last year.
The evidence is the historical market value of non shooting wings, and it’s overwhelmingly in my favor.
In Feb 2022, for instance, Josh Hart himself had negligible value. He was salary filler in the CJ McCollum trade.
One year later, in the midst of the worst year of his career, and three months away from free agency, you think his value skyrocketed?? That tortures reason.
The Blazers effectively used the salary filler in the McCollum trade to recoup almost the entire cost of said trade.
What you and Noble are arguing is “what Hart has given us since the trade is worth a first round pick.” And you’re right. No contest.
But we were not supposed to pay for the best case scenario. We were supposed to pay a reasonable price per the market. Had we done so, we would have Josh Hart and a first round pick from last year.
If Leon had given Jalen Brunson a max contract, for instance, two years later we could sit here and say “the verdict is in: Jalen Brunson is worth a max contract.”
But if someone had said at the time “we could have gotten this guy for half the money”, Brunson’s stellar play wouldn’t mean that person was wrong.
As we anticipate the importance of potent game 3, we’re also spoiled with the fortuitous special guest Clyde Frazier on the illustrious podcast the Roommates Show.
I don’t know if Hart’s .344 3PT% on 1,653 career 3PA makes him a “non-shooting wing,” but in any event there’s no reason to believe we could’ve gotten him for less than the lottery-protected first we sent.
Would you rather we have walked away from the table?
Josh Hart has always been a throw in, and has always played his way into starting jobs and major minutes everywhere he’s landed. The problem was that those teams weren’t good and he never got to effect a playoff series because he was on vacation during the playoffs. It’s shouldn’t be surprising that he is now effecting playoff series’. The Knicks paid a reasonably low price for him and are getting what they expected + more. It was a great, great trade. Why try to call it anything but that?
This is such a dumb take. Sorry, not trying to start something before game 3.
But these are basketball players, not stocks traded on the Dow Jones.
If other GM’s are too dumb to realize that Josh Hart has insane value as a winning basketball player because he isn’t a great 3 point shooter, that doesn’t make Leon dumb for MAYBE, SLIGHTLY overpaying for him. It makes him smart for realizing the impact Hart would have on us winning games and doing what it took to make sure we got him and not someone else. And we’re doing that thing again where because we traded for a player and not someone else, we’re assuming there were no other offers on the table when it is extremely rare, unless it’s a super star, for the media to pick up on concrete offers that competing teams are putting on the table for a player. The only time in my life that I can ever remember hearing about an alternate offer for a player in a trade was the Melo trade and The Nets. Otherwise, it’s usually very vague things like “x team is also interested in x player.” But somehow whenever we trade for a player whether it’s Hart or OG or whoever, people assume we overpaid in the trade because ESPN wasn’t kicking off Sportscenter with the latest scoop on what other teams are offering for this player.
Because people can never say “I was wrong” and somehow think every first round pick, even if it’s super late in the first round, is some precious asset that must only be used in either drafting a player or in star trade.
I kind of get it. The Knicks threw away draft picks for years up until Phil Jackson. I mean Donnie would throw them into trades to get out of player contracts to clear cap space. But fans, especially a segment of Knicks fans, think it’s tantamount to heresy to do anything with a pick but make the pick or use it in a trade for a top level player.
Role players like Josh Hart are not easy to find. And saying “there’s a josh hart in every draft late in the first round” doesn’t make it easy to find that player and develop that player and wait three or four seasons for that player to develop into that player.
Josh Hart IMMEDIATLEY helped this team. He was an upgrade and well worth a late first round pick.
Hubert IVsays:
April 25, 2024 at 11:14
You were right: my early belief that his draft bumblings would be a portent of general failure were completely wrong.
I don’t think there was any risk in doing so. This wasn’t OG Anunoby. He was shitting the bed for Portland last year when we traded for him. I honestly think a couple of seconds would have beaten the market.
I do not dispute that Hart has given us enough value after the fact to justify the cost, but that’s a different point entirely.
RJ Barrett has given Toronto more than expected, too, but no one seems to think that should cause us to revise our assessment of that trade.
Well, one person does, and you all call him a troll for thinking so.
Pretty weird time to be relitigating the Josh Hart trade, Hubert, considering he was basically the MVP of 2 huge playoff wins at MSG
Small sample size? I’ll take it!
And just as it is with E’s dead-ending about how we “overpaid” for OG, the idea we could’ve gotten Hart for anything less than we traded for him is pure speculation and very implausible under the circumstances.
I mean, a lottery-protected first is really not very much. Portland may well have just taken their chances with a sign-and-trade if they couldn’t get one. I don’t see any reason to believe Leon bid against himself.
Unlike E’s baseless OG assertion, though, we have a long market history we can look to for a guide.
Josh Hart in 2022 was salary filler. Josh Hart in 2023 netted a first round pick. That is quite a rise!
Plus we have the historical market for (I’ll adjust my label for you) wings who cannot shoot league average. How many can you find over the last decade that netted a first round pick?
One of the better ones (Bruce Brown) was just traded last year and his value was… wait for it… salary filler! The Raptors tried desperately to get a first round pick for him and failed.
Look, Noble, you bring this up every single time Josh Hart is playing well. You did it in the game 1 thread. You did in the game 2 thread. Last year you did it in every game of the Cleveland series.
You quite notably did not do it during the Heat series.
How about we wait a few weeks and see if our offense gets suffocated again because no one’s guarding Josh Hart?
If we get through a whole postseason of Josh Hart making teams pay for not guarding him, I will be happy to admit I was wrong.
the now years long refusal by some people to accept that this team is pretty good is mind boggling
For some, being happy is scary because of the fear it will all be taken away.
At the end of the day, here we are with a 50-win team, one that accomplished that without its only all-NBA player on the roster for half a season, and with other key players going down for extended periods.
And the biggest reason that Leon has the team in this position is that he didn’t do a bunch of the very stupid things that some here were calling for him to do, starting with hiring someone other than Thibs, and foregoing a down-to-the-studs rebuild. A couple of years ago, some posters dismissively alluded to how Leon started out in the same situation as the then mighty Cavs, who had tanked for Mobley and were now legit contenders while Leon punted on tanking. The conclusion was that the Knicks were in purgatory, mezzanine, treadmill of mediocrity, rudderless mess, etc., and look at where we could have been if only we had followed the advice of the KB hive mind.
Lo and behold, here we are, neck and neck with the Cavs, and with all of our pick plus some surplus picks and an injured all-NBA player still in the hopper, and a playoff destruction of those same Cavs in the books.
And a huge, huge part of that success has been the Josh Hart trade, with Josh Hart just being Josh Hart, i.e. the guy that Billups called the heart and soul of his team.
I don’t buy the “Josh Hart cost us a playoff series” argument at all, especially as a hindsight reason to mitigate the value of the trade. First, nearly every superstar has a subpar shooting series in the playoffs from time to time, let alone role players. Second, the Heat left a lot of guys open during that series, including Randle, IQ, RJ, and Grimes. Only RJ shot above 37%, and he was 1-10 in the pivotal game 6 and 0-3 from 3.
In our four losses:
Game 1:
Hart 0-4
Brunson 0-7
Barrett 1-5
IQ 1-4
Grimes 1-3
Game 3:
Hart 2-6
Randle 0-5
Brunson 0-5
Barrett 2-7
Grimes 1-4
IQ 2-8
Game 4:
Hart 0-2
Brunson 2-7
Randle 1-4
Grimes 3-7
Barrett 3-5
Game 6:
Hart 1-4
Brunson 5-10
Randle 1-7
Barrett 0-3
Grimes 1-6
Josh Hart hardly stands out as the guy whose shooting cost us that series.
I should also mention that Josh Hart (5-21) had a lot of company on the Heat in regard to shooting poorly from 3 in that series. Jimmy (1-9), Gabe Vincent (11-41), Duncan Robinson (12-42), and Kevin Love (7-29).
Blaming the series loss on him is beyond the pale.
You guys shifted the goalposts to:
– “would you rather walk away from the table”
– “people don’t think this team is good”
– “Josh Hart didn’t single handedly lose the Miami series”
That’s remarkable work, guys. The goalposts started in the endzone, now they’re in the parking lot.
I don’t think we know what Portland was thinking in acquiring Josh Hart. As you often ask, where’s the proof?
This sounds made up.
Hart started 40 of 41 games for New Orleans and all 13 games he played for Portland. He was not mothballed or immediately jettisoned to the waiver wire.
It’s no secret that Portland was trying to build a competitive team around Dame at the time. It’s not so clear that they were dumping him rather than retooling by trading an extraneous offensive player for a defensive one.
Keep in mind that McCollum had a .532 TS% for Portland that year and played the same position, undersized offense-only guard, that both Simons and Lillard play.
The year we traded for Hart, he had started for Portland in all 51 games he played. A single, protected 1st round pick for a starting caliber player is a reasonable price to pay.
An extra day between playoff games is like the “Bring Out Your Dead” call for Knickerblogger.
Haha. Just logged on and got my smile of the day. Go Knicks!!
Hubs, you brought up him single handily losing us the Miami series, which is a ridiculous statement.
Randle was/is our second most important player and he played horribly in that series. IQ also played horribly in that series. How is it all on Josh Hart that we lost that series when other players who played just as big of roles in the team’s successes also played horribly.
And if you’re going to say he lost us a series then you need to also acknowledge that he won us a series, which he absolutely did against Cleveland (and is doing so again so far against Philly).
So you admit that Josh Hart tends to play well in the playoffs.
So the only bar for the Josh Hart trade being a good one is for us to win the championship while Josh Hart shots 40 percent from 3 in every game?
No, Swift.
Noble said Hart “decides playoff series” and I said against Miami he decided it the other way.
You don’t seriously think Noble was suggesting that Josh Hart is single handedly beating Philadelphia without help from his teammates, do you?
this guy is one of the writers at the rough equivalent of Posting & Toasting
Obviously doens’t affect the teams play but Sixers fans have collectively lost their minds after that last loss.
i was thinking that if a posting rule here was “no debating” sunk costs…that would alleviate a lot of, for example, josh hart trade commentary…but then I realized there would be like 5 posts a day if that filter was imposed….
Isn’t that kind of the point of making a trade… on what you think the player will do in the future? Leon paid/paid for Brunson, DDV and Hart based on what he thought they would be worth in the present moment plus what he thought they would be worth in the future and he seemingly underpaid for their performances even though the intelligentsia thought he paid too much for them.
That’s nuts. Breen is doing play by play for God’s sake- he’s asking so he can give the viewers the correct information.
I cannot believe this thread. On the eve of a huge playoff game a single poster couldn’t give a shit other than justifying his “ don’t assume it was a good trade” take on our best performer so far. Who cares about the price paid right now? Let other fans enjoy the ride and keep quiet and stew in private.
No, I don’t think so, Bob. When we signed Deuce McBride, for instance, we didn’t pay him back up PG money before he became the backup PG.
I’m not going to get into any particular player or trade given the fact that it’s playoff time, but no, for the roughly two dozenth time, that isn’t the right way to price the player. If he’s worth 100 to you and the highest bid in the market is 40, you don’t bid 98. You bid 45.
The whole entire point is to take the market’s misvaluation (*) of the asset for yourself, not give it to the seller.
(*) Or the potential surplus from the fact that he “fits” you better, however you want to term it. Why would you hand that surplus over to Masai Ujiri?
Nice rant but I’m not the one who came on here and decided today was the day to litigate the Josh Hart trade.
I just posted a response to Noble and then some intolerant folks decided to come at me.
Just so happens I ain’t got shit to do today and my allergies are keeping me inside, so I’m here for it.
The problem isn’t that we overvalued Josh Hart. The problem is that we undervalue first round picks.
That sounds like splitting hairs, but it really isn’t. Leon has, um, let’s just say a “different” approach to how he values first round picks. Clearly he doesn’t have a ton of faith in the scouting of young players, feels the bust rate is too high, and would rather use the picks to acquire “sure thing” players like Hart.
Maybe Hart wasn’t available for a handful of second rounders, there’s really not any way to know. Ultimately Leon felt that Hart’s character, his status as Brunson’s buddy, and yes his basketball ability were worth the 1RP, because what are you gonna do with that 1RP? Draft a guy? Trade it for future protected 1RPs? Leon doesn’t value that kind of asset very highly. He prefers established players with a track record.
My main criticism of his tenure is that he doesn’t value those picks correctly, but at this point I don’t really care all that much anymore. He’s done a fine job despite that particular quirk.
This right here. This Knicks team is the best squad I’ve watched since the 90s and has provided me immense joy in the way the play but also the way they fight for the full 48.
I feel like this Blog thrived during the dark ages of the last… 25 years? Incompetence plagued ownership, scouting, coaching, playing, etc…. to the point where Knickerblogger was the best source of analytics, strategy, etc. for directional hope. Identifying all the ways this organization has failed and the methods that could be employed for a rebirth.
Here we are in a rebirth and some folks are having trouble with the means that justify the ends.
this is what I was referencing earlier:
It might be worth letting someone (Josh, or Deuce or even iHart) initiate some offense when Brunson is on the floor just to give Philly something else to think about
Here we are in a rebirth and some folks just can’t tolerate one person still thinks we paid too much for Josh Hart.
And that person never brings it up, btw. I’m not trying to convince anyone. You guys bring it up. All the time.
Oh, for sure. I mean the blog didn’t even exist when the Knicks were last consistently good. So I feel like this place was a respite where we could all hope and dream and also vent about the franchise and now we don’t have that so people don’t know what to do, lol.
Although I’ve been reading since the very early days and posting since 2010. And I don’t remember there ever being as many of these weird battles over issues that have been debated hundreds of times during the 54 win season.
But yeah, I definitely feel like that is what is going on.
… narcissism of small differences …
And Freud lived before internet message boards ….
So you did respond to his post with that response, no?
I did bring up the Josh Hart trade, because I thought it was a worthwhile contribution to the existing discussion of Leon’s tenure, it being one of the more consequential moves of said tenure and all. Maybe I shouldn’t have done that given the trade’s history as a flash point on this website, though I have to say I very genuinely believed that had been put to bed by Josh Hart’s recent and semi-recent play. Lesson learned!
However, let me be very clear about what I was saying:
Josh Hart could, god forbid, die before tipoff tonight and I would still feel quite certain he blew the expected ROI on a 2023 lottery-protected first out of the water for us. Such is the case when you play 2,707 minutes over 81 games for an injury ravaged 50-win team, and have been one of said team’s most consistent playoff contributors across multiple seasons.
No, that’s not true. By now Leon knows exactly what a late 1st is worth: it’s worth a prime years Josh Hart.
And he’s a smart GM, he knows the value of a prime Hart.
Sorry I’m just not there yet. That’s usually a 7 year window and while I appreciate what Josh has given us, I don’t think it already exceeds a reasonable 7-year return for a late 1st. Not to mention the future potentially holds negative value. There’s no need to benchmark him to Kris Murray like you keep trying to do, but it’s quite possible when we’re looking at 26 year old Murray vs 32 year old Josh Hart that the Murray delta exceeds everything Hart’s already given us.
I’ve reached Knickerblogger Nirvana – the positive callout by TNFH! (I mean this in all seriousness!)
And not to relitigate the Josh Hart trade from last year but if you guys want to, here is the post-trade thread:
https://knickerblogger.net/2023/02/10/knicks-morning-news-2023-02-10/
Swifty, when Noble said “Josh Hart decides playoff series”, I presumed that he did not mean he decides them single-handedly without help from his teammates, as that would be preposterous, and he is not a preposterous fellow.
IMO Josh Hart’s impact on winning is not measured well by the one number stats models we all glance at that try to estimate player value. They don’t capture the significance of his versatility on defense, the extra possessions he gains due to hustle, his ability to play more minutes and remain productive or even some of his rebounds that are more valuable because they aren’t coming from someone else that could have had them anyway. They are coming from knowledge and pure “will” that other players don’t have.
IMO it was clear he was better than he looked on paper when we got him. If anything, he’s been subpar (but still good) this year because he’s been less efficient both inside and outside. Fortunately the good version showed up for the playoffs so far and he’s at least going well from 3.
Don’t underestimate the significance of tonight’s game.
We may be up 2-0, but I haven’t seen anything to suggest we are the better team. All we did was hold service at home in two games we could have easily lost. If we win tonight, then of course we are in great shape. But if we lose, it’s still very much a series that can go either way given the 76ers are arguable the better team when Embiid is playing. If they hold service, they’ll have plenty of momentum coming back to NY where they know they are at least capable of winning one.
How many late 1st rd picks even play in the NBA for 7 seasons let alone all for 1 team?
I totally agree with Strat–this is about as tenuous a 2-0 lead as could possibly exist. I won’t feel great about the series if we lose tonight, though I’d stick with my original Knicks in 6 prediction.
It would be great if everything stayed more or less the same except Jalen Brunson started playing like Jalen Brunson. If that happens I’ll be going to the closeout game on Sunday.
Josh Hart ain’t just a good player.
He’s also an integral part of the New Knicks culture.
It’s not always how much it costs.
It’s also How Much it worths FOR YOU.
Just read the post-trade Hart thread as linked by Frank (thx!)
— Flame war? Check.
— Embiid questionable with foot injury for that night’s game against Philly? Check.
— Geo en fuego? Check.
And the very last post:
I love this blog so much. Can’t wait for the F-ing game to start!!
I have two comments on the Hart Trade. Hart was going to become a free agent at the end of the season and Portland wasn’t going to be able to pay him. So they had to trade him. I’m sure they shopped him around and had other offers, but the Knick’s offer was the best. Of course we don’t know what those offers were, but I have faith Leon paid just what he had to. If it was a competitive bidding situation then, by definition, León paid market price.
The other comment is that our two recent late first round picks were Quickley and Grimes. Hart beat them both out for a starting spot. He is a little older but is still in his prime. So I think he was clearly worth the pick.
I’ll start feeling a bit anxious if it gets 2-2. Normally if 2 fairly even teams play each other one team usually doesn’t go up 3-0 so I’d expect Philly to win tonight with Game 4 being the game that is really telling.
Agreed that this is an extremely precarious 2-0 lead. I’d say we are about 80% to win the series but those odds go way down if we lose tonight, probably to 65% or so. if we lose both Philly games we are probably slight underdogs at best. So our main chance is to put them in a hole tonight or in G4.
Here’s hoping that:
-They are demoralized from having their souls stolen
-Embiid isn’t feeling any healthier
-Melton can’t go or is ineffective
-Mitch can go and is effective
-Their roleplayers continue to play terrible
-Our roleplayers continue to play out of their minds
-Maxey stops destroying us
-Brunson actually makes some shots
-The refs don’t decide to prove how objective they are by giving them 3x our FTA
To be honest I’m a little worried as most of those hopes aren’t looking very likely to pan out. A win tonight could easily give them momentum to carry into Game 4 and beyond. I don’t want this to go more than 5 games.
Winning the Sixers tonight would be Huge but i don’t see it very possible…
We’ll have to play extremely… great to get the 3rd Win while the Sixers would actually play for survival so they’ll be quite desperate.
Not impossible but .. very tough
PS — as noted Frank’s take on Hart from then (below) seems most germane to what we’re looking at, especially over the last two games.
i think game 5 is going to pivotal…we probably don’t win either game in philly absent embiid’s knee blowing out…if so, we have to win 5…I don’t see us losing to them at home in game 7 but these two teams are pretty even so…who knows…
Oh man, the preview for the new Donald Sterling movie on FX starring Ed O’Neill looks pretty good. Lawrence Fishburne as Doc Rivers!
We are in general a fairly bad home team. I’m oddly more comfortable with our must-win games being on the road. They were so close to beating us in both home games that I don’t want any part of a must-win G5 or G7…
me neither…i think brunson has to have a legendary performance in one of the next two for us to take one in their building…
I think we’re gonna turn on the afterburners tonight. And ironically I expect Hart to lead the way. He was dominant in Philly this year. Could be random but I think it’s a comfort level/Nova thing and I expect it to continue. Also counting on getting our maestro back.
Yoooooo knicks fans showing out at the tailgate
Literally 3 groups posted up and grilling
Gerald Wallace was traded three times for, like, multiple first round picks each time. One of those picks became Lillard, one became Tobias Harris, one became Kyle Kuzma, the list goes on. I’m sure there are others, but man, was Wallace ever a wing who couldn’t shoot for shit. He threw his body around the court a lot too, and hustlebunnied his way to big contracts. So the precedent says Leon could have paid a lot more for what he got.
Might be too early for suxers fans but so far at least 50% repping the knickerbockers
Hey, this is the Hubert bought pool tickets to the Bowl and didn’t invite a date thread too! (I think Hubert might just be allergic to Josh Hart:)
Nurse said Melton will be a GTD.
I expect him to play (and honestly Mitch too, after one extra day of rest).
While I am (very cautiously) optimistic about our chances to win the series as a team, I am deeply concerned and disappointed on Brunson.
Going into the playoffs, I really thought he had the kind of resilient scoring game that true superstars have, where they can never be truly shut down, only slowed. I was dead wrong.
Philly turned him into a complete offensive liability using nothing more than a couple of extremely ordinary wings and an small guard who is so old that it’s shocking he’s still playable in the league. I honestly don’t know how we stop other teams from replicating that now that the world has seen it on a big stage, because any future opponent will have the personnel to do it and hours of film on it working to perfection.
I think Brunson is just too small and too slow to be that kind of scorer. I thought the craftiness and the footwork and the IQ and the moves were good enough to weather any defense, and they probably would be if he was 6’6″, but as it is I don’t think he can ever be the best player on a championship team. I love his game. He’s as smart a player as there is in the league and IMO he’s deserving of 1st Team All-NBA based on his RS play this year.
However, he’s just a tier below the level of true superstar scorers like Luka, Embiid, Giannis, Jokic, or SGA. Given his pedigree and price, there’s no shame in that whatsoever.
Moreover, I’ve seen enough at this point to conclude that Maxey is the better player and asset — his RS numbers weren’t far off Brunson’s, he has plenty of upside left at 23, and he has dominated the matchup on both ends so badly that I’ve never seen the like in 30 years. Frankly, I’m not so sure Brunson would have carried the gang of corpses that are Philly’s role players any better in Embiid’s absence.
If we are going to become real contenders during Brunson’s prime, I think we now know that we do need that real 1A, a player better than both him and Randle, to anchor our offense.
There are so many story lines in this game that I’m utterly unable to wrap my head around a prediction for what will happen. In no particular order:
Is Joel okay?
Will Good Brunson show up?
Is Mitch okay?
Will Maxey supernova?
Where’s OG (offensively)?
Will Josh make four more threes?
iHart foul trouble?
The answer to any of these could turn the game. I’ll be there, but in fear and nausea. (Although I do expect a Knicks victory…)
Edit: And Pags, that was borderline negative… we haven’t even played Game 3 yet… suck it up…
Game thread is live boys LETS GO KNICKS!!!!!!!
Josh Hart only guy out here early taking 3s. Like Thibs said, you put in the work, not surprising when the big shot drops…