Knicks Morning News (2017.12.17)

It’s one of those things where, yeah, they should have won, but it doesn’t mean that it isn’t still very satisfying that they did win, ya know? It was a great win overall. Anf four wins in a row! Wow! When was the last time that they won four straight?!

By the way, holy shit, the NBA has this bizarre middle class where, like, everyone below the top teams seem to be all the same. The #4 team in the East doesn’t seem to be appreciatively better than the #10 team! Same in the West. What a weird season so far.

By the way, holy shit, the NBA has this bizarre middle class where, like, everyone below the top teams seem to be all the same. The #4 team in the East doesn’t seem to be appreciatively better than the #10 team! Same in the West. What a weird season so far.

The west looks like a lot “softer” this year.

I mean, outside the top-3 teams (which are title contenders) there aren’t really any scary team over there.

A lot of stars lined up for the Knicks to get yesterday’s win. Back to back on the road is already tough, but after a triple OT game where most of your starters played around 50 minutes and missing your starting C (a player that would have given Kanter fits), that’s a lot of help. Still, we were missing our two best scorers and needed a couple of guys to step up. A lot of people played well and made big shots.

Beasley was terrific. I trash on him all the time because he makes frustrating mistakes. I’m sure there will be plenty more plays like that in the future. But he carried the team at times last night. Whenever a possession broke down, the Knicks just gave it to Beasley to create something for himself. He mostly created pretty good shots and made them. He even made a few nifty passes. Other people shot well when open, but without Beasley there’s no way the Knicks win that game. I’m going to concede I was wrong about him even as recently as a couple of days ago. Maybe the only situation he’s very valuable in is when we are missing both KP and THJ or desperately need a scorer, but at the price I’ll keep him.

I don’t think of the Spurs as true title contenders, much as I don’t think of the Celts that way. They are supremely well-coached overachieving teams that are highly vulnerable in the playoffs. The only title contending teams in my book are GSW, HOU and CLE. The teams that need help are SAS, BOS, and maybe TOR. Then maybe WAS has a puncher’s chance of getting to the finals if LBJ gets hurt, and who knows with MIN and MIL? But yeah, the bottom 3 spots in the both conferences playoff hunt are totally up for grabs. There’s a shitload of teams that are in that “bizarre middle class” that BC described in @2. Only about 7 teams are lock lottery teams: CHI, ATL, DAL, SAC, PHX, LAL, BKN. Others are probably MEM (although if Conley comes back healthy they could roll) ORL & CHH (both seem better than they’ve played) and LAC.

The Warriors are probably coasting a bit and are probably going to steamroll everyone once the playoffs start.

No

Jack-who sucks-has sucked less than I was expecting this season. I hate watching him play, but he hasn’t been terrible. I was wrong about his signing.

I beg to differ, DRed, I actually like watching him play. He has his share of cringe-worthy moments/stretches, but mostly hustles,. plays team basketball, and is much better on D than I expected. He’s never really been a starting-level PG but has been a very solid backup and stopgap starter, and a great on-court leader and locker room guy. His offensive game is similar enough to Frank’s to be an effective mentor for him…mostly a 4th-5th option taking opportunistic pull-up jumpers within the offensive scheme, better at the smart pass than the flashy pass. Mark Jackson lavished praise on him during a recent Knicks telecast, and I can see what he was talking about.

Sessions is here for the inevitable Jack injury. Also lol at Baker mentoring Frank.

Also lol at Baker mentoring Frank.

If you’re referring to my post @16, it was about Jarrett Jack, not Ron Baker.

I’ve had my doubts with horny (mostly rotations and which players he chose to come off the bench) but, last night was most definitely a coaching win…

without 2 starters and having to utilize a bunch of guys that at the beginning of the season looked like some rejects from a box of broken toys – the knicks played some fairly competent basketball last night…

very encouraging going forward if they can continue to play together as a team…

seems tough these days to coach a team to pass and play defense – we’ve been doing both…

Charlotte has lost 3 in a row…definitely doable tomorrow night…

celts beat us in 7

http://knickerblogger.net/knicks-morning-news-2017-07-06/

Here’s the thread where Ron Baker’s contract was announced. After being the lone holdout against the hysteria and taking a beating for it, I posted:

Z-man
July 11, 2017 at 7:19 pm
All u haterz need to promise me right now that if Ron outplays his contract, you will buy a Ron jersey and wig and wear it to a game…or dinner at Clyde’s Wine n Dine.

Is it too early to collect? 😉

these days, hustle seems to be the hardest thing for teams to adjust to 🙂

If you put aside that finding a point guard who can help us win games in 2017-2018 probably shouldn’t have been a high priority, Jack is probably second to Tyreke Evans for best guard signed to the minimum. It’s also worth noting that while Evans has been way more productive overall, Jack has been the superior playmaker (though that very well could be related to role). I agree with Z-Man that he’s been eminently watchable this year, largely because we’ve been deprived of the most basic point guard play since, like, Linsanity.

Beasley is fucking maddening, but when our two highest usage rotation players are out you could do a lot worse for the minimum.

Overall, as long as the team hovers above .500 I’m not going to complain too much about the draft. Guys like Lee, Jack, and KOQ are an annoyingly large part of our success, but Porzingis is still our highest usage player and Frank is getting good reps every night. Just be prepared to go into fire sale mode quickly if/when things take a turn for the worse.

I mean, 5 games is obviously overwhelming evidence!

Agreed. But considering the abuse this poor, misguided fan took back in July for believing in him, I thought I’d enjoy this little tiny window for gloating, since according to all the haterz, that window should slam shut any day now. I mean, how can any Knicks fan in his/her right mind even root for him, being that he’s either going to revert back to being an overpaid G-Leaguer or is set to either ditch us or fleece us at year’s end if he keeps playing well?!

Beasley has been blowing me away with his play on offense. Just carrying the team for long stretches, very surprising. He still makes too many stupid plays, but overall he’s been a huge boost to this team, especially with KP out. McDermott hit some big shots and Jack played well for the most part, but he and the team have far too many turnovers.
All in all a good win, 4 in a row, it’s good.

@32

I’m fine with accepting 5 games as a sample size, as long as you also accept 23 games is quite enough to argue Dennis Smith Jr. is terrible!

Jokes aside, Baker has done a lot of good things so far in this stretch and I think the way he’s playing is his best case scenario, good 3 point shooting on low volume, good defense / hustle and not turning the ball over while playing 15 minutes a game. That’s a legitimately good backup to have.

Re Dennis Smith Jr., fair point. Two things. First, I said after the fact that once I learned that he refused to share medical records, I would have had passed on him and moved on to Mitchell. Second, like Baker last year, Smith Jr.’s main issue is shooting inefficiently. His assist and turnover rates are very promising for a rookie that was thrown into the fire at 28 mpg against starting NBA PGs and allowed to shoot at a 30% usage.

But yeah, on the negative side, he could wind up being a total bust (less likely) or an injury-prone Derrick Rose clone (more likely).

Hezonja just shot 8/12 on 3s to end with 28 points against the Pistons. 2 assists, 3 steals and 6 rebounds too.

I really wanted the Knicks to throw some garbage at the Magic and pick him up, now his price might be going up too.

I was never against bringing Baker back. I argued that he was a good defender and was very likely to be more efficient this year based on free throws alone, let alone if he improved his shot. My problem was the contract. If I recall the details correctly, they were in a position to give him the qualifying offer. They had to drop him to make room to overpay Hardaway. Then they signed Baker later for way more than the qualifying offer. Even if Baker turns out to be a bargain I’m still going to think that was a bad sequence of events. You either sign Baker cheaply and offer Hardaway a little less or if you are desperate for Hardaway you drop Baker and maybe give him a little sweetener for working with you. You don’t overpay for both. A far as I know, even if there was some interest in Baker out there, no one was giving him anywhere close to what the Knicks gave him.

The Hardaway and Baker deals were both dumb.

As it turned out, they both played just well enough to opt out and yet we never missed them because they never played well enough to miss.

That’s another reason the contracts were bad. Neither player was particularly good. Williams had some upside, but Afflalo was, at best, going to be just a guy for a team that was nowhere close to contention, so it was ridiculous to assume the risk of him opting in.

The Afflalo and Williams’ contracts were horrible, but neither player lost money from opting out. Williams got the same contract from the Heat that he would have had he remained a Knick and Afflalo improved on his Knick contract.

I disagree.

With some rare exceptions, you have to put a competitive team on the court within a certain period of time or you will get fired. If you stink because you are in the early stages of a reset (or like to tank all the time), the youngest and best free agents won’t sign with you. But you still have to build a team. So you have to look among the second and third tier free agents to fill some spots. You may still have a tough time getting any of those guys to sign short term deals with you, but there will be some that are willing to bet on themselves and take a short term deal, especially if you give them a little premium up front. The Afflalo and Williams deals were fine. No one young or good wanted any part of NY. We signed rotation players without making a crippling long term commitment to anyone that was not part of the long term plan. Guys like that are sort of like mercenaries. If one works out, that’s fine. If none do, you don’t care. You might even get lucky and get one for a single year or they’ll opt out after one year (as they did). Then you’ll get another chance to try to add a core piece the following year. Rebuilding is a multi year process. Contracts like that retain some flexibility while you are trying to build something and aren’t in a position to sign attractive players.

If you set your standard for a GM by looking at the best trades other GMs make, of course most GMs and most deals will fall short. It’s the same if you complain that the GM didn’t get players for less than their actual value. Of course you want that, but other than rookies and superstars, most NBA players are played at least their value because of the way the CBA sets salaries. So I am not complaining if our GM just ends up paying fair salaries for role players. Of course, they could excel and be worth more the next year making it hard to keep them, but that is in the nature of the NBA. If players get better, eventually their salary goes up.

Is reub finally back?

You really, really don’t. You can make trades using your cap space to pick up guys who will play for you and pick up actual assets to help your future. The very same time that the Knicks were wasting their cap space on Williams and Afflalo, the Sixers were using their cap space to pick up a Sacramento 2019 first rounder (basically one of the best assets you could possibly have) and 2017 swap rights with the Kings (which ended up with the Sixers getting the #4 pick) just for taking back Nik Stauskas.

I don’t disagree with you in a theoretical sense, but imo you playing a form of fantasy basketball. Hinkie was brilliant, but he also got fired for all that tanking and losing. I also wonder how their bottom line looked during that period.

Basketball is a BUSINESS. Owners are looking at attendance figures, TV ratings, merchandise sales, cable subscriptions, advertising revenue etc… Managers, coaches, and their staff are thinking about their jobs and the jobs of people they’ve brought in. The media (especially in NY) is always looking to stir the pot and create controversy. Most fans can’t think past the last game, let alone 3-5 years out.

In the real world, people are trying to balance financial, basketball, and career goals while worrying about the careers of others they are responsible for.

If it was just about winning a championship, everyone would tank and rent cap space until they were totally stacked at every position. But that’s fantasy league. Teams will selectively tank a year (like we did to get KP) or rent cap space if they already know they will suck and have no other options (like the Nets this year), but it’s not a viable business or basketball strategy if you want a job or return on investment. You have to try to get better by winning deals, finding hidden value in the draft, and signing good deals.

Phil Jackson was a fucking joke of a GM. I can’t believe there are still fanbois here slobbering over that doddering old hippie.

“I just gotta have Joakim Noah at any cost, I mean having a center who can execute passes out of the pinch post is absolutely essential to winning in the modern NBA” -Phil Jackson’s mescaline-addled brain

Most of the complaints about hiring Afflalo and such are from the point of view Phil should have made Hinkie like moves. But Strat’s and my points are that these are normal GM moves driven by the desire to have some sort of coherent team on the floor while also trying to improve the team. Phil screwed up with Noah, gave Melo a NTC, and he also pissed off most his players and couldn’t get the sort of coherent team play he wanted. But he hired a reasonable coach, drafted well and didn’t give up picks, which was much better than many other Knick GMs. That’s a mixed record, but to me a refreshing one. And on pissing off players, I remember that posters here actually wanted him to do that to make Anthony willing to leave.

I don’t disagree with you in a theoretical sense, but imo you playing a form of fantasy basketball. Hinkie was brilliant, but he also got fired for all that tanking and losing. I also wonder how their bottom line looked during that period.

But Jackson got fired in roughly the same amount of time as Hinkie anyways, right? Both lasted about three seasons (Hinkie could have lasted longer, but he was pissed that he got effectively demoted by the hiring of Jerry Colangelo).

Most General Managers end up getting fired. Might as well try to make the best moves you can while you’re here. Especially when you’re making, what, eleventy billion dollars a year, or whatever Jackson was making. I don’t think he made moves due to pressure, I think he just thought that the moves that he made were the best moves.

I never really defend Phil’s strategy per se, as I have always agreed with Brian et. al. that a complete rebuild was the only sound strategy available to the Knicks when Phil’s tenure started. I tried (and continue to try) to judge each move in the context of the flawed strategy, both at the time and in hindsight. At the time, I thought that Afflalo and DWill were questionable moves with limited long-term positive or negative potential, i.e. that as “stupid win-now moves” go, they were pretty inconsequential, especially if the “third” outcome (they would play just well enough to opt out and not well enough to miss) came to pass, which it did. It’s not really defending Phil, it’s stepping back and judging the deals in the shitty context within which they were made.

As to Afflalo, Phil actually chased him out of town by dissing him in the media.

Same with the Ron Baker deal. It’s a relatively inconsequential move no matter how it turns out, and could actually turn out positively, even if made for the wrong reasons or if bungled in negotiations given the market for him. I happened to love Ron at the time of his signing, and if you go back to the DWill signing, I hated him at the time (saying, I believe, you might as well just lit the money on fire.)

@58

I think from day one Phil believed the right way to build a winning team was to slowly change the culture by adding young players and veterans that fit the personality type he desired and that would be willing to play his style. I think he believes (as does Mills and Perry) that part of changing the culture is trying to get better by winning trades, finding value in the draft, and making selective FA a deals – as opposed to serial tanking.

1. He cleaned house of the “suspect personalities” and in a couple of cases gave away assets just to get rid of them.

2. He tried to add core pieces, but when he couldn’t (which was practically always because we sucked) he added the best available filler he could find on short term deals and tried to keep rolling over cap space.

From where were were (missing two 1st round picks, being so bad no one wanted to play here etc..) he was handcuffed pretty badly. No doubt he made some unforced errors along the way. But had he done some of the things that would be more ideal if we were playing fantasy sports, he would have been crucified by the media and fans even worse than he was.