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79 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2025.08.01)”
happy august to all
“watching knickfantv, it’s hurting my ears to hear the words: team friendly deal…”
what the hell is even knickfantv
I would call the Mikal extension a “could have been worse” deal for the Knicks. In no way would I call this a “team-friendly” deal unless he really turns the clock back to his PHX days. Honestly would you rather have Quentin Grimes at 3 for 40 (which is I think around what Katz’s article said would be a fair deal for him) or Mikal at 4 for 150? I understand that Grimes is not available to us for that price because we don’t have the NTMLE and we can’t do a sign and trade because of the apron stuff, but I am just having trouble with the valuation of Mikal here.
Of all the trades that Leon has done, IMHO that Quentin Grimes trade has aged the worst. We got like 5 bad games of Bogdanovic and Burks was put in the dungeon, and Grimes basically is exactly what we were hoping for with Mikal — slightly worse on-ball skill than Mikal but Grimes is a better shooter and a better on-ball defender (and who has already shown that he can play playoff-level defense, regardless of whether his on-ball stuff with Philly last year was just bad-team stuff).
Yeah, this Bridges extension stinks….
The only way that it’s a team-friendly deal is that it avoids drama and negative publicity. It would seem like having it out there that it took one year where your team made it further in the playoffs for you to conclude that the guy who you just gave up an unprecedented 5 unprotected picks for wasn’t worth being the 4th highest -paid player on the team might be a bit embarrassing? Beyond that, nothing about the deal is team-friendly…maybe that changes is he dramatically improves, but he’s a pretty old dog to be learning new tricks.
Given all that, I’m okay with the signing. I don’t think it will age particularly poorly, especially given his age, position, and his special ability…availability. I expect that Mikal will work on things that he needs to during the offseason and that Mike Brown will utilize Mikal in a way that accentuates his positives and mitigates his negatives. He might or might not ever give $37.5M AAV of overall play in any given year, but I think the chances of him becoming an albatross that requires sweetener to unload are pretty low.
It’s “team-friendly” in the sense that it would in theory allow us to duck the second apron next season, depending on what moves we make over the next 12 months. That’s not nothing. But, yeah, he took advantage of the leverage Leon gave him. Now we just have to hope we get Good Mikal back. That guy is worth this salary. The guy from most of last season isn’t.
“It’s “team-friendly” in the sense that it would in theory allow us to duck the second apron next season, depending on what moves we make over the next 12 months. That’s not nothing.”
There’s almost certainly a cap consideration associated with the second apron built in to the exact dollar figure, and that may have been the red line. Mikal and his agent probably had to consider whether it was worth pushing for more and threatening to go UFA…which was definitely a crap shoot. But anything lower than what he signed for might have made it worth it to roll the dice. He definitely had more leverage, and mostly because of the sunk cost imo.
As to comparisons with players making 20-ish percent of the cap, some of those guys are younger and took the absolute max they could have under the CBA…and will likely get paid lots more at Mikal’s age and veteran status. But no matter how you slice it, seems like an overpay for his level of production, regardless of age and position.
“Of all the trades that Leon has done, IMHO that Quentin Grimes trade has aged the worst.”
Yeah, and Thibs is a big reason for that trade taking place in the first case. But to be fair, Grimes did have a chance to win the job early in that season and lost out to Donte. His game just did not develop under the pressure of Thibs, and actually may have regressed. He was hurt a lot, and was injured when he was traded. The trade was widely praised by pundits at the time. But yeah, it would be nice to have that one back.
That’s it in a nutshell.
I’ve been on Team Trade Mikal since around December but now that injuries to Tatum and Halliburton have made this upcoming season such a rare opportunity to steal an NBA title, I think it’s reasonable to be focused on the short term. And for the 12 months this extension is probably a better choice than trading him. Our continuity is going to be a strength next year.
And it’s funny that we were discussing the perils of committing to a player who we think will play better when he’s happy the other day about Zion because we probably just did that with Mikal.
Seems like restricted free agency is gumming up the works for some teams who want to establish their rosters. The Warriors and Kuminga are at an impasse. The Warriors don’t like the sign and trade offers they’ve received and Kuminga doesn’t like their offer (and for good reason, the Warriors want him to waive an implied no trade clause). But this may not resolve until October and the Warriors are holding off other moves, like signing Horford until this is resolved.
I think we’ll need to pray the cap goes up by the max next season, otherwise it may be impossible to keep Mitch (the only rotation fixture not locked down) and stay under the cap.
Sunk cost, etc, but if the Knicks had Grimes at 3/40 and all the picks they spent on Mikal, we’d be ecstatic about their future and would be making plans for Giannis in 2026.
The Dante signing was the death knell for Grimes. I was pilloried for saying they were redundant, but we all saw the result. There was obviously not going to be enough minutes or money for Grimes. Alas, now we don’t have either. I’m not mad at this signing though. I expect Bridges to have a bounce back year.
Pipe down, Leon haters.
I think for Mikal being in his prime years, his durability and his “two way” play, the deal is fine. Not a bargain but definitely not an albatross.
I also think there are some pretty simple things Brown can do with the offense to utilize Mikal better and if that happens, we will see “good” Mikal more often. If that happens, then I think the extension looks a lot better.
I also think Mikal was better than a lot of people think he was last year. And he came up pretty big in the Boston series.
Not really an apt comparison at all. There’s a difference between Mikal being a little grumpy last year because Thibs played him crazy minutes and he didn’t like how he was being used on offense and Zion being out of shape/overweight and constantly injured. Mikal’s physical dedication to the game can never be questioned, IMO. That’s basic shit that you may or may not get with a player like Zion.
Anyways, the team’s core is now set for the foreseeable future, which is kind of nice, no?
I guess the only things left on the offseason agenda are the final vet minimum slot and whether Leon wants to extend Mitch or not.
IMO, I’d look to extend Mitch now and see if you could give him another 2 or 3 years at a similar price tag he’s at now. With his injury history, I think he would highly consider it because if he gets a major injury again this season, he’s a vet minimum player the rest of his career (and his career would be over).
Can someone clarify how trade kickers work at the moment of the actual trade?
For instance, Mikal makes $33M in year 1 and has a 15% trade kicker. Does he count as $33M in incoming salary to the other team or $38M (33*1.15)?
I’m resigned to wait a while for the final slots to be filled. Diawara will almost certainly be signed either to a two way contract or a rookie minimum deal and McCullar has a two way qualifying offer, so those two will be on the roster somehow. But one veteran minimum we can sign will probably wait on other teams making deals since we are probably in competition with them for low priced veterans (for example, Simmons)
So Leon has a window to make another push for Horford. Do it!
I think GSW can offer more than the minimum but Horford would be closer to home if he came to The Knicks. He also would have a real shot at another ring and this might be his last season to do that.
The lesson should be don’t listen to pundits.
Most are just fans getting paid to demonstrate they don’t know what they are talking about (kind of like journalists that discuss stocks, the economy, politics, foreign policy).
There are some very sharp people out there covering cap issues and “Xs and Os” but imo there’s an obvious lack of expertise at valuing players in non monetary terms. Loads of player are badly underrated and overrated.
But his mental dedication has been questionable for 2 full years now. Is that any better?
And btw, we’re actually hoping he’s been dogging it because he’s grumpy. Because if that’s not the case then he just fell off a cliff.
Mikal’s contract sort of underscores how great of a deal IND made for Nesmith, both in acquiring him and extending him at $11M AAV.
The contrast between Mikal and Nesmith deals and signings might be the biggest negative difference between the Knicks and Pacers last year, even aside from Nesmith’s game 1 heroics.
However, between the Hali injury and losing Turner for nothing, IND has some work to do. Mathurin is probably earning himself a hefty extension so 2026-27 might be a pivotal year for them. The following year they project to be very much into the aprons unless they make some deals.
IMO Mikal is a better play now than he was with the Suns. What can be argued is that he’d have a prettier stat line if his role in the offense here was reduced, he was guarding wings more often instead of small fast PGs and he wasn’t playing next to Hart who grabs all the extra rebounds that Towns doesn’t get. The thing is, this team needs him to do more on offense and guard POA on defense because Brunson sucks on defense, OG can’t create well enough off the dribble and Towns is a C. As long as his efficiency remains adequate overall, it’s fine. We can have a great offense overall the way things are with better coaching and more movement on offense. I think there’s a very good opportunity for him to up his 3P% this year from the form experiments last year and get his overall TS% closer to 60.
He wasn’t dogging it. This is a fucking ridiculous take.
His three point percentage last year was dragged down by a lot of end of quarter heaves from long distance. This season those won’t count in calculating his shooting percentage.
I wonder if that exclusive arrangement will continue under Brown.
We focus so much on what a new coach can do for the offense but it could be even more interesting to see what happens with less rigidity on defense.
The Clippers had a remarkably pliable defense last season. I’m curious to see what O’Connor and Brown come up with this year. I have a feeling it won’t be 82 games of Mikal chasing every PG in the NBA for 37 minutes.
I don’t think Donte tarnished Grimes’ tenure here. Grimes started the first 20 games of the 2023-2024 season and got 23 minutes per game. The problem is he sucked.
If he can keep up the level of play he showed with the Sixers last season, that trade will age terribly. There are some reasons to be skeptical–he wouldn’t be the first guy to show out on a tanking team opponents weren’t really taking seriously and proceed to not be able to replicate it later–but it was undoubtedly impressive as hell and I lose way more sleep over him already than I do over trading Clank.
It’s tricky. The team trading the player counts their salary as their original base salary for outgoing purposes, but the receiving team has to count the base salary + kicker for incoming purposes. This is why players frequently waive them, this dynamic would tarnish a lot of otherwise legal trades.
If you’re right then we just paid $37.5M for a guy who has been a negative BPM player over his last 6,000 NBA minutes while giving it his all both mentally and physically. That’s not good.
If a bad attitude or low morale wasn’t impacting his performance I don’t know where else the upside is going to come from.
“bc I don’t know where else the upside is going to come from.”
the upside will come from him not playing quite so many minutes every game since we have a deeper bench now. And also from a more creative offensive mind who won’t just let Brunson pound the rock for 18 seconds every possession. At least, that’s the hope.
Sounds like a de facto NTC in the apron era.
I think. Ridges can play better and think Grimes can play worse too.
It’s hard to find a highly effective 10-12 million dollar guy. Guys like Bruce Brown pop up and have great seasons and then return to irrelevance as soon as they sign with a new team. There are a lot of Dorian Finney Smith and KCP types milling around but my sense is that it can be a struggle to have that guy at the ready playing at an elite role player level right when you need him, rather than looking like Shamet or Delon.
So yeah, we don’t have to worry about that with Cromulent Bridges in the fold. It’s a ton of dough though, absolutely full value..
Looks like it would have been 36.3% instead of 35.4% without his 12 heaves.
https://abovethebreak.substack.com/p/heave-heroes-the-winners-of-the-nbas
Mikal gave us some fairly generic wing play and most maddeningly to me played a brand of basketball I can only describe as “soft.” His complete collapse in FT rate is disturbing, his tendency to die on every screen was disheartening, and his passive style of play put very little pressure on the opposing team on both ends of the floor.
He made enough shots and defensive plays to make himself a passable player, but you will never convince me that he is good value at the salary he is about to make. You should be able to find that level of production at a fraction of the cost.
I hope he plays better under a new coach but my expectations are low.
Grimes was having a really bad year. Detroit also gave up on him.
Leon also seems allergic to 2nd contracts unless it’s overpaying RJ. Maybe they consider it an inefficiency because you’re overpaying for upside? Either way, absolutely did not pan out.
As I see it, here’s the situation with our rotation players:
Outstanding value contracts:
Brunson
Mitch
Deuce
Clarkson (ducks!)
Players on market value deals:
Yabu (could move into outstanding value, we’ll see!)
Overpays:
KAT
OG
Mikal
Hart
Seems like a balanced situation, not ideal but not crippling. None of the overpays seem albatross-esque. If we had any draft capital, I’d go as far as to say it was very promising. Alas…
Caveat: Huk, Dadiet, and Diawara are all intriguing as either future rotation players of trade chips on some level. If even one of them can shine this year, that adds at least some of the flexibility lost in the Mikal trade.
“Detroit also gave up on him.”
Not really, he was injured and shut down, and then since they were pretty stacked at that position, they used him to acquire a stabilizing vet and some draft capital.
This is just my eye test talking here, so grains of salt and caveats apply, but watching this team last year I got the distinct impression that OG is a far more impactful defender than Mikal. Or at least he was last year. OG is usually drawing the toughest defensive assignment and acquitting himself well. Very rarely did I watch this team and come away with the feeling that Mikal was making a real impact on the defensive end.
The AIO stats are a bit of a wash (although OG does a bit better than Mikal), but to me OG is a better player than Mikal and less of an overpay. Maybe a more switch-heavy scheme might unlock some of Mikal’s defensive value, that is my hope at least.
These are both popular misconceptions.
Grimes was killing it for us off the bench when we traded him. He got off to a bad start but after his demotion he averaged 16/5/2 per 36 on 37.5% shooting from 3 along with very good defense.
Detroit got Tim Hardaway (who started 77 games for them) and three seconds for Grimes bc they wanted veterans and were willing to pay a premium for them (as they did with Harris, too).
going through a bunch of the after extension vid analysis stuff – most talking heads gave the move a positive review…
yossi gozlan from the same knick fan TV show mentioned that most likely we will dip in to the second apron to extend mitch…
basically the reasoning being we desperately need a rim protecting center, and we don’t have many other practical options for acquiring one of those…
also he put mitch’s possible number at 20.5 million…
not sure when it may happen though…
ha, at some point we’ll also need KAT to take a little less on his next contract – like only 58 or so million a year 🙃
One thing to keep in mind is that the AAV number is misleading for Bridges. He’s making $33.5M in 2026-27, or 20.2% of the cap. That $8.5M (4% more of the cap) than he is making this last year of his prior deal. Doesn’t seem that bad in that context unless you think he is in irreversable decline, or is at best stuck at what he was this past year.
In: OG, KAT, Mikal (now locked up at 78-ish% of the cap for the next couple of years)
Out: RJ (18%) IQ (20%) Randle (20%) DDV (7.5%) Grimes (let’s say 13%) and all of our future draft capital.
Make of that what you will.
Bill and Ted as Vladimir and Estragon feels right.
I love the off season because you can have an event which changes expectations and they are not questioned 2 days later with a loss. And today I am very happy–probably the 3rd or perhaps 4th happiest off season day in the last 30 years. We signed Mikal which nails down the core that if coached well should have us dreaming of a chip right up to the day we are eliminated, if we are. What more can you ask for as a fan?
FYI: the other days were July 14, 1996 (by far number 1) when we signed Houston and traded for Johnson, only losing Mase. Number 2 was the trade for Kat. Number 3 was the Mikal trade (and only perhaps as the missing piece part collapsed when we lost iHart shortly thereafter).
rrrruffles have bridges
the pistons didnt give up on grimes but the mavericks did
It really does. I’m very excited.
Although I have to admit when I saw McKellan and Stewart do it I realized the whole thing functions much better as an idea than an actual night out. I’m definitely not bringing Ali MacNeil this time.
Waiting for Godot is a great play to read. It’s not really a great play to watch. IMO, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead by Stoppard is a much better variation of that idea.
Detroit was “stacked” at that position? With who? Jaden Ivey and his .536 TS% on 25% usage and a shining .010 ws/48 and his -3.1 BPM in 2200 glorious minutes? And who were his back ups that season?
They moved him as soon as they could for a guy who can only be classified as a significantly below average (being kind here) NBA player.
Can’t argue with this.
I might have been sitting near you, Hubert. The director this time is coming off Sunset Blvd and I gotta be honest, it was very much not my cup of tea. If I’m gonna be subjected to broadway song and dance at least build a set so I can get distracted with the craft work.
Mikal & OG are both raking in extra millions that belong to JB and Deuce. Only number that matters to me is at the bottom of the page after Mitch is extended. I’m sure Brock & Leon figured it out.
OT: I’m happy for Giannis who clearly decided to stay in Milwakee and swim with his kids of the coast Chania and Messenia next April. In the long run, he made the right decision.
If you’re paying Mikal anywhere near OG and expecting him to return fair value, you’re betting on Mikal being much better on offense than he was last season. He’s not near his level on defense.
It’s telling about Mikal’s defense that OG got the Cade assignment after Mikal had defended PGs all year.
Spot on, Hubert. That’s the worst part of the extension.
“Detroit was “stacked” at that position? With who? Jaden Ivey and his .536 TS% on 25% usage and a shining .010 ws/48 and his -3.1 BPM in 2200 glorious minutes? And who were his back ups that season?
They moved him as soon as they could for a guy who can only be classified as a significantly below average (being kind here) NBA player.”
Whatever.
Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead is one of my all time favorites. I’ve only ever read it, though.
I had this book once called Nine Plays of the Modern Theater, compiled by Harold Clurman. It had Godot, R&G are Dead, The Birthday Party, The Caucasian Chalk Circle, American Buffalo, The Balcony, Tango… I wore that book out like JK47 wore out his Burt Bacharach double CD.
“the pistons didnt give up on grimes but the mavericks did“
Quite the opposite in my opinion. Grimes bet on himself by not signing an extension when Dallas were willing to give him one when he was traded. His play together with the Doncic trade put Dallas in a position that trading him made the most sense. Nothing to do with giving up on him.
The Pistons wanted grown ups in the locker room. They were widely ridiculed for the premium prices they paid for guys like Hardaway and Harris but after going from 14 to 44 wins I think it’s safe to say they got it right. Hardaway started 77 games for them and raised their floor significantly.
They also got three seconds for Grimes, one of which was just the 37th pick.
I once got to play Rosencrantz.
Or maybe it was Guildenstern…
I played Guildenstern in HS.
Waiting for Godot but its Mikal and OG.
Seems like the type of Mezzanine move (first round exit) that would be widely ridiculed here if we did it.
Tommy Beer
@TommyBeer
It’s worth noting that when Brunson injured his ankle late last season, we saw a different version of Bridges.
Over a 12-game stretch in March, Mikal averaged 22.2 points, 5.2 assists and 1.7 threes, while shooting 55% from the field, 37% from deep and 92% from the FT line.
Mikal was at his best last season when it wasn’t the Brunson iso show
Actually they made the same kind of moves (like Alec Burks, Nerlen Noels, Derrick Rose, Taj Gibson, Evan Fournier, etc.) you guys all glorified Leon for making when he made them.
I recall when I used to say how any team can get to the level Leon had got easily if they set their sights on it someone used to say “if it’s so easy how come the Pistons can’t do it?” Well, they did it in one summer.
nba today, iman shumpert: jalen’s gotta share the sugar more…
yes, yes he does…less usage please, save it for the 4th…more KAT, more mikal…and hopefully OG is working on his handle…
Now that you mention it, Bill and Ted would make a much better Rosencrantz and Guildenstern.
Yes, they did do it. And you seem to think it was a great move for them but for us, not so much. I’m confused.
Hubs, there is a pretty good movie version of Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead that came out in 1990 that stars Gary Oldman, Tim Roth and Richard Dreyfus. I haven’t seen it in a long time but I remember thinking it was very good.
C’mon Hubie. Detroit didn’t pay a “premium price” for Hardaway. The Knicks paid a premium price for Bridges. Hardaway played shit basketball for Detroit and Detroit had no interest resigning him and he is now playing for the league minimum.
Anyone who doesn’t think the majority of Detroit’s improvement was the stratospheric quantum leap from Cade Cunningham isn’t being honest. THJr wasn’t the secret sauce. Tobias Harris who for his entire career was an above average NBA player, hated at a max contract, but perfectly reasonable at the 26M per for 2 years that Detroit signed him for.
I remember that movie. It had Richard Dreyfus as the player, and Gary Oldman played Rosencrantz (or Guildenstern) like Keanu playing Ted.
I don’t remember anyone saying Randle was better bc of Leon signing Merle s Noel and drafting IQ and Obi.
But plenty of people theorized that Thibs could have played a role in Randle’s improvement.
Most likely Randle just worked his ass off during Covid and came into camp in amazing shape and Thibs style of coaching and play was perfectly suited for Randle to lead that team and raise the floor of the team.
is julius a value on that contract (3 yrs/ 100 million) for the wolves…seems so…
hard to imagine him staying around all season though with both reid and gobert on the roster…
and yet he did stay around all season so i can imagine it
https://img.izismile.com/img/img13/20200820/gifs/miss_a_3pointer_with_these_basketball_fails_01.gif
This Randle talk is making me unreasonably optimistic about year 2 of Mikal Bridges btw. I think I’m going to adopt the wildly optimistic position that the Mikal/Randle situations are analogous and in year 2 Mikal will make a similar unexpected meteoric rise.
okay then mister smart doogie guy, recent assignment is to do a “Thought Log” for a persistent belief that I have…
Trigger: being around people a bunch, in particular a lot of their senseless and inane chatter
Thought: I’d be so much better off alone, things would just be easier
Consequence/Behavior: get anxious, feel uneasy/agitated, go in to a hibernation mode, maybe lash out, bunker up and isolate
Rational Counterstatement: ___________________________
alright then doogie, give it to me, what is a good rational conterstatement for that particular thought log…put some effort in please…
I may actually finish an assignment this time 😳
oh no cyber…nooooooo…
hopefully OG drops some weight, stays healthy and bounces at least 2 basketballs all the time and everywhere he goes this summer…
Geo, I’m out there in Sept… Jumbos Clown Room?!!!…
yes please 😊
oh hecks no clarence, man I’m getting hot just thinking about stepping through that doorway…hot as in heading to hell hot in that house of ill repute…
won’t catch me within a few millimeters of that joint…
although, I wonder if costumes are cool…imagine showing up with friends in some star trek uniforms – that’d be toooooooo super dope…
Fuck. RIP Robert Wilson
Jumbos doesn’t lead to hell. A three day bender maybe. If you’re lucky.
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