It’s buried in a Marc Berman piece about Damian Lillard, but clearly, when you get a Knick source to say, “In a Lillard trade, the Knicks don’t want to have their roster ransacked but likely are willing to give up three of their future first-round picks. RJ Barrett is not considered an untouchable in a deal for a superstar, according to a source” that is significant.
Not that anyone necessarily thought that Barrett was “untouchable,” but is is a whole other thing to tell a reporter that he is not untouchable. It’s the difference between Gwen Verdon knowing that Bob Fosse was likely going to fuck whatever young dancer he’s working with next and Bob Fosse telling Gwen Verdon, “this new dancer I’m working with is not untouchable.”
Hopefully for RJ’s sake that there aren’t any superstars on the block this offseason and then he plays so well next year that he does become “untouchable.” It sure is hilarious to see the Charlie Ward stat theoretically continue to be a possibility against all logic and reason.
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170 replies on “NY Post: RJ Barrett ‘Not Considered an Untouchable in a Deal for a Superstar’”
Jowles, the edginess is mainly a reaction to your mocking post about the Booker numbers I posted. I’ve defened the Suns’ maxing of Booker from the start, and that no-brainer move is still being held up to the light unfairly. I remember disputing another prominent and respected poster here actually said a couple of years ago “if you do this or that you wind up like the Suns” as if they had no path to perennial contender status due to their “dumb” decision-making. So when they finish with the second best record in the league and yet their finals run is characterized as a lucky outcome mainly based on opponent’s injuries, it comes off as “well they split 5’s when the dealer had a 10 showing and won on both because the dealer busted.”
Turns out that there was nothing inherently risky at all in their strategy at any time. They built a team through the draft and had enough cap space and assets to trade for a superstar and a couple of role players.
New thread! Thanks, Brian!
Ported over from previous thread:
I’m with Early Bird: Knox is so much worse because every other realistic option at that pick has turned out to be at minimum a useful NBA player, and several of them are stars (or star role players) in the making. Whereas if we didn’t take Frank, we probably would have taken DSJ or Malik Monk. That Mitchell went several picks later isn’t a fair knock any more than attacking everyone who didn’t take Jokic in the first round of his year.
We’d be crazy to move RJ.
I think there were reservations about Frank as soon as we saw him dribble in summer league but yeah, that’s right re Knox and Frank.
I answered yes but meant to answer no – it was too early in the morning to untangle that double negative.
So as soon as the last PK was missed, I texted my friend I was “watching” the game with that every racist in England was going to “take notice,” and sure enough … they did. Twitter has the technical power to ban comments, and has exercised that power a lot, and at this point is becoming hard to falsify the proposition that they intentionally aren’t banning them so as to inflame, divide, monetize, and profit.
If you’re hoping for a (impossible to achieve) world in which literally zero people think “those” thoughts and even say them out loud occasionally, your hopes are utterly futile. The fair-minded are very much left to wonder why Twitter then gives that garbage a globe-traversing platform to spew, vastly expanding their reach. Simple question: Why would Twitter permit an account holder to hurl monkey and banana emojis at Bukayo Saka? And why wouldn’t we hold Twitter accountable for publishing said emojis? We wouldn’t let the NYT publish such things and if someone wrote a letter to the editor in that vein, it would be immediately hurled into the garbage can.
As to the Knicks, of course the FO doesn’t consider RJ untouchable. This really didn’t need to be stated explicitly.
he’s a real athlete that picked up basketball later than most (~high school)… and because of that some think that there’s a lot of upside…
i’m a bit neutral on the upside part.. he’s solid as a player right now and because of his age he does have decent upside…. he’s a solid prospect… probably slightly lesser grade than justise winslow .. both had questions about their shooting.. both had good playmaking chops… both had great defense… keon’s a better athlete.. .winslow better scoring ability…
he shouldn’t be too controversial… he’s a solid player with a diverse skillset …. and in this draft you can rank him anywhere starting from 6 or 7 to about 16 … but that goes for about everyone else in that range also….
The Suns’ strategy was risky, but intelligently risky. Nothing wrong with taking risks; lots wrong with taking stupid risks.
knox certainly had the biggest opportunity cost and there were no excuses like… it’s tough to project teenagers in the french league…. knox played with SGA at kentucky… SGA led kentucky on a winning streak late in the season and through the tourney.. knox struggled for long stretches too… and despite all that.. we STILL thought knox was the better prospect… based on 3on3s…
for those paying attention it was the most obvious call…. unfortunately not many were….
The thing is, even though I think Knox was the worse pick and Frank is the bigger disappointment because of his potential, I still think Knox has a slightly better chance of being a useful NBA player one day than Frank. (yeah, I said it).
Knox did go to Kentucky. I mean, that’s not nothing. He clearly has some athletic potential and is not a bad shooter. He just has a poor motor and is not super bball smart, among other things. But I feel like maybe he still has a shot to be a decent bench player.
But yeah, picking him over Mikal really stings at this point. If we had Mikal in the fold, our youth movement would be totally legit. And picking him would not have made us good enough to mess up getting RJ (most likely).
*I should qualify this with two statements:
1) I am specifically referring to the James Jones regime, although McDonough deserves credit for starting the rebuild with a correct philosophy and building lots of draft ammo, alas he made three unforgivable blunders in drafting Bender, Chriss and Jackson and disn’t deserve to see it through. Had he (and Jones with Ayton) drafted better, the Suns would possibly be better than they are right now, and you could call it lucky that they were able to screw up yet another high lottery pick with Ayton over Doncic (relatively speaking, at least they didn’t take Bagley) and still wind up with a core piece who complements smarter picks Cam and Mikal.
2) ANY strategy involves trade-offs and risk, and in order to be successful, a degree of luck to get to the finals and/or win a championship. However, the Suns are absolutely a legit contending team right now, and were a formidable matchup for the Clips, Lakers, Nuggets, Jazz, and now the Bucks even if those teams were at full strength. And they didn’t have to sell their souls a la Lakers, Nets, Clippers, even the Bucks with the Jrue trade, to get there. They have a dynamic young core, all of their draft picks, and either CP3 or the cap space he occupies going forward.
It goes to show how drafting prudently, managing the cap, and winning trades without worrying about short term results can dig you out of a hole quickly, even when the hole is self-inflicted. If there’s any team we should be emulating, it’s the Suns. That’s my main problem with the Thibs hire, it suggests that we might circumvent drafting this year for a quick fix. The Suns waited until after they had a young core in place to hire a win-now coach and trade for a supermax player. We’ll see.
Of the other 4 viable picks to replace Knox, all 4 had positive BPM & TS% over .600. MPJr & SGA look like borderline all-stars. Mikal Bridges is probably the best roleplayer in the league. Miles Bridges will probably turn into a star just to spite us.
Knox is a year younger so maybe he breaks out this year… but it’s looking like an all-time dumb pick. He can’t get his 2p% over .400.
I’d be shocked if Knox gets any significant playing time this season. Either he’ll be included in a trade as salary filler, or he’ll be cheerleading with Theo Pinson from the end of the bench. Even with Randle and Obi on the roster, the Knicks could have very much used a player like the guy that Knox in theory is, and he was out of the rotation pretty quickly. Unless Kenny Payne is a for-real wizard, his time as a player this organization has plans for is done.
Sure. The question is, risky compared to what?
Was maxing Booker risky? Sure. But it was far riskier NOT to max him. You said that you wouldn’t have maxed him, and that’s a prime example of taking a stupid risk. You can’t look back in hindsight and say “well, the numbers weren’t there so they got lucky on that one.” And don’t demean him as a player now because it makes you look less dumb in retrospect. Just own the L and say that they were smarter than you.
And again, Ayton was on the surface the less risky pick (perceived higher floor) than Doncic. Most smart folks here saw through that but the point is that it was not a “roll the dice” pick. The Mikal trade was also for a perceived high-floor guy. So the idea that they were banking on luck is muted by those decisions.
Z, you must have me confused with someone else. I’ve never said I wouldn’t have maxed Booker and I would have without hesitation. When I said that maxing Booker was contrary to doctrinaire thinking amongst a certain faction, I was criticizing the doctrine, not the Booker max.
RJ is untouchable
Suns are poor man’s Warriors
Frank never dissapoints Francophiles
Knox is always Fun
I’m on a beach
Women swimsuits are becoming smaller than ever and
Life is Good when you’re chilling in the sun!
Yes, they had a great regular season and have been on fire (14-5) in the postseason. There in no world in which not having to face Davis, Murray and Kawhi in consecutive series is not considered “luck.”
Remember when the Raptors got to play the Warriors with a total of 12 minutes against Durant? And how Klay had 30 points on 12 shots in Game 6 before busting his knee on a pivotal play, with the Dubs losing by 4? Was that not luck combined with an excellent performance?
The Suns deserve credit for opportunism, and for putting themselves in position to add a Chris Paul instead of kicking the can down the road. Trading for him was clearly a win-now move, and look — they’re winning right now.
E, Here’s what you posted:
It’s hard to read that in the context of the overall conversation and interpret it as being supportive of maxing Booker. But I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and retract my reaction. On this narrow point, anyway.
Jowles, I think you’d be hard pressed to find a championship team that didn’t benefit from luck the year that they won it all. Winning a championship almost always involves building a great team, having good coaching, a superstar or two AND luck.
2015 Warriors beat The Cavs without Love or Irving. 2016 Cavs beat the Warriors bc Draymond kept kicking dudes in the nuts. Both of those were lucky breaks that helped the other team win it all.
This is why I get mad that people are trying to put an asterisk on the Suns if they win it all (or the bucks too for that matter). They should get credit for staying healthy during a tough season when other teams could not.
Sure, and Milwaukee faced BKN with Kyrie out and Harden compromised and ATL with a hobbled Trae Young who stepped on a Ref’s foot and an injured DeAndre Hunter. Last year the Lakers benefitted from GSW’s dynastic team being dismantled, the Rockets stupidly trading Paul for Westbrook and PG13 having an all-time horrible playoff performance; Miami benefitted similarly. GSW benefitted from CP3 going down. Rarely is it that at least one finals team, if not both, haven’t benefitted by luck to a large degree. That’s just part of the sport that no team has control over.
The larger point is precisely that they had a great regular season mainly on the backs of young players and CP3, who was far from a high-risk trade. He cost them cap space, some redundant players and a 2022 1st round pick which looks like it will be in the 20’s. So while strictly speaking it was a win-now move, in context, it was as un-risky of a win-now move you could possibly make. They were already topped out as a fringe playoff team without making it, so it’s not like there was any realistic possibility that they were sacrificing future contender status or flexibility by paying a minimal amount for a first-ballot HOFer coming off of a stellar injury-free year with 2 years left on his deal. The only “luck” involved was that Paul preferred to go there in the first place, but even that had a lot to do with decisions like maxing Booker, etc. which led to a team where Paul saw possibilities.
how many finals teams played against teams without their best or second best player in every round? that’s the elephant in the room where the degree of ‘luck’ far surpasses any other team that also benefited to some degree of luck….
this playoffs will be remembered more for who didn’t play more than who won…. and you would have to reconcile that before even mentioning anybody else….
Suns play against a healthy Bucks team.
And they play pretty tough.
Although I’m with the Greek Freak Team i can’t deny that I’m impressed by the Suns.
Luck or Bad Luck these arizona mfkrs are playing a hell of a ball game.
The word “doctrinal” was an intentional signaler and a dead giveaway. Particularly since the post came a few posts after extolling the “blatantly obvious” over things like VORP and BPM.
Probably the main thing the numbers don’t catch with someone like Booker is that he can play with a bunch of different types of players and can play with a bunch of really good players to form a really good team. He’s not going to bitch and whine and get all ego-y and shit if you bring other really good players in who also need their touches. That comes down to things like playing style and temperament and is easily compared and contrasted with someone like Carmelo Anthony. With Booker it’s “I can go a number of different paths to a chip”; with Carmelo and his archetype, it’s a narrow path and always dependent on his whims and moods and need to hog and such.
Voted No. But i really like what we’re building here, so the only way i’d trade RJ and Julius is exactly for a superstar, and only one of them. Let’s get some continuity.
But as i said several times, cap wise, in trading for a superstar is much better to trade Julius than RJ, to still have room for another max player to join.
It was clear he’s criticizing the doctrine and not the max.
that was an impressive victory by the bucks, who seemed to be counted out too easily. I don’t think they will lose a game in milwaukee. Happy to have hedged with the Giannis MVP bet. He looks unreal.
It really depends on you define expectations.
Frank wasn’t drafted to be a traditional PG. He was drafted to be a guard in the triangle where he wouldn’t be required to be the primary ball handler running P&R and penetrating. His job was going to be to defend, keep the ball moving, keep himself moving, get the ball into the post and understand the offense. When we changed management, people started calling him the PG. With that, he inherited the expectations he was going to be traditional PG. So on that false basis, he was a huge disappoint for not having skills for a position he wasn’t even playing for France. Also, there wasn’t much around him in the draft that was very good anyway (Monk? DSjr?) other than Mitchell. Mitchell also came with some red flags related to his size and the position he was going to play. That’s why he dropped so much in the draft to begin with.
In Knox’s case there were some potentially attractive players in his area of the draft but the Knicks seemingly “reached down” to get Knox. So I think expectations rose regardless of what people here thought of him. I think he’s the bigger disappointment, especially since both Bridges are turning into very good role players and we passed over both of them even though some draft experts had one or both ranked higher.
No asterisks on a championship. Thanks Phil tried to pin one on San Antonio during the lockout shortened season and was wrong then and would be wrong now.
That said I’ll comment again that I don’t think the Suns winning is a done deal yet. Milwaukee is good and Holiday may turn out to be not such an overpay as we thought.
***I’m being accused of calling their Finals run luck. I just don’t get the characterization.***
Sorry, I thought you were being sarcastic when you kept saying “not luck”. (And, in re-reading it now, I’m pretty sure you were, but my reading comprehension has seen better days, so I don’t know).
Not maxing Booker would have been borderline insane unless the package the Suns got back in a trade was “off the charts” ridiculously good. The only way not maxing him would have made sense was if they were operating in some kind of make believe world where the goal was to maximize the team they could put together 10 years from now and the return on a trade was awesome. That’s not the real world. In the real world, owners, fans, players, agents, sports writers etc.. expect that you are trying to get better and win. Thinking long term is acceptable and even admired by all, but within reason. When they maxed Booker he was a very good player and they knew the best was very likely to be ahead. Even now, his best ball is probably ahead. It was practically a no brainer. Only bad models suggest otherwise.
Well, at the time i was only a follower and didn’t comment, but to be sincere i thought the same as Jowles. Booker at the time striked me as an inefficient chucker like D’Angelo Russell. He’s done well since, but D’Angelo didn’t. So it’s choices, some people are right, some people are wrong. The way people try to do victory laps here is one of the things i don’t like. When i’m right, i don’t need to remind anybody of it, i just feel good i nailed that one and on to the next.
Last thing I wanna say about Knox before I take a stab at this “Is RJ untouchable” thing..
What’s really troubling about Knox’ position..is he’s a tweener in the worst way. PF/C tweeners and PS/SG tweeners you can get away with playing. But Knox is a 6’7″ long athletic guy with a frame like Obi. If he were even a legit 6’8″ without shoes, you could bank on him filling out and playing the Obi role to a T. Maybe even better because of his jumper. Who knows? But Knox is in a weird space, man. Of course I will root for him, but I’m not sure how we get the best out of him at this point. It’s much easier to see how we can get the best out of Ntilikina if he’s brought back somehow.
As for RJ..what superstar are we talking about? RJ’s the kind of kid you wanna build with and all of these superstars allegedly on the market are 28 and older or have injury history, I believe. So if we’re talking Beal, sign me up for it. His game will age well and go very well with Julius and Mitch. But for the other guys? I’ll pass unless Luka or Giannis becomes available. I’m on the fence about trading for Zion. He scares the devil outta me when projecting his health moving forward
One player I wouldn’t mind trading RJ for, if we can get him to commit to playing SF- is Ben Simmons. But he’s not a superstar though
DJ,
I get that but The Suns and Bucks also had to play this condensed, shortened season just like everyone else. Being able to stay healthy and stay on the court IS part of the game. And its not like The Suns and Bucks were 7th and 8th seeds. Suns missed CP3 for some games.
I mean The Lakers were battling injuries all season, not just freak ones that happened in the playoffs.
Its still a championship and the asterisks talk is silly.
Booker was a good bet to be a movable asset even on his max contract because pointzz. He was one of the leading scorers in the NBA even before his extension. The odds were pretty low that Booker’s contract was going to be unmovable. He averaged 26.6 ppg at age 22. That’s a dude you can trade if you need to. The fact that he worked out for Phoenix is just gravy.
Same deal for RJ, I just don’t envision a scenario where he gets maxed then you’re stuck with him on a bad contract. Two more seasons of normal development and extending RJ is an easy choice. He’d very likely be easy to move if you want to go in a different direction.
If we are unsuccessful in Dame +1 sweepstakes, – in fixing our glaring PG hole, we should stay away from Lowry, CP3 veteran types and even Brunson and Lonzo Ball, overpay.
Prefer Leon calls Glushon and gets us Cam Payne for a two plus one, in a cheap Randle type deal and Dinwiddie a one year $18-20M deal. (i.e. J.J. Reddick) – One agent, two solid players with tremendous upside.
**What’s really troubling about Knox’ position..is he’s a tweener in the worst way. PF/C tweeners and PS/SG tweeners you can get away with playing. But Knox is a 6’7? long athletic guy with a frame like Obi. If he were even a legit 6’8? without shoes, you could bank on him filling out and playing the Obi role to a T. Maybe even better because of his jumper. Who knows? But Knox is in a weird space, man. Of course I will root for him, but I’m not sure how we get the best out of him at this point. It’s much easier to see how we can get the best out of Ntilikina if he’s brought back somehow.**
I think you nailed it. Knox is the strangest amalgam of basketball talents I can think of. He has a bunch of tools that add up to absolutely nothing.
…
I remain an RJ curmudgeon although he really impressed me this year. Next year I really want to see him get his 2p% over .500 and expand his passing a bit. For a player who came into the league considered a slasher, you’d think his 2p% was better.
Instead his 3pt shooting has been his calling card. I expect his 3p% to regress a little bit this next season, but I’m much more excited because before last season I didn’t expect him to hit 40% ever.
He’s young and I love his work ethic, but he needs to finish better at the rim. He should get better naturally, I’m just not sure how much better he’ll get.
All that said, I’m not trading a young talented player except for a bona-fide superstar. It’s hard to get superstars, I’d like to roll the dice with the young kid with the work ethic improving.
What “doctrine?” E quoted some stats that no one in their right mind would correlate to justifying either not maxing Booker or criticizing it in retrospect. So what “faction” is he referring to? The “win curve is a real thing” faction? The “max Randle and RJ” faction? The “We believe in the merits of Advanced Stats being a prominent factor in decision-making” faction?
I’m squarely in the “Booker should have been maxed because his advanced stats, position, and age justified it at the time and he hasn’t disappointed” faction. The last thing I would do is use his case to take a swipe at the AdvancedStatsophiles. There’s no “doctrinal” thinking or faction aligned against E. In the case of Booker, I was able to defend maxing him without pulling the “Greek chorus” card.
The question I have is: if we trade RJ, for what is arguable a win-now club, what is our future/plan B? Quickly, Obi, Mitch, that new Argentinian guy Vildoza maybe, and whatever we get from this draft? I believe in a lot of those guys but all have issues, and if history shows, at least one or more would be going back with RJ for a *superstar*. Along with picks, and future draft position.
RJ is likely our best (and maybe, arguably ONLY) player with the ceiling to be something close to a centerpiece to a backup plan for the future if our current expedited rebuild around our current in-house cinderella Julis Randle doesn’t pan out in the next couple years.
Does Beal get us there? Lilard? either one gives us a pretty short window, a real roll of the dice (something something Antonio Mcdyess).
This, 100%. This is why I also think maxing Murray and Mitchell were good ideas. Are any of them prime Lillard/Curry/Harden? No, not yet at least, despite some of the torrid play they’ve exhibited in the postseason. But they also have enormous trade value and have solid teams around them.
The Suns were primed to capitalize on other teams’ bad luck these playoffs. You almost never do that with a 42-40 team. They took a big risk on Ayton over Doncic and trading for an aging superstar, even if the asset price was fairly low. Those risks are working out for them very well. If they win it all this year, you shouldn’t give a damn if Chris Paul is injured for the rest of his career on a 10-year max deal or if Booker never takes the leap to the .625 TS% player you want him to be. A chip erases all concerns.
Tbh I haven’t followed the Suns much. But looking at their team stats, they seem to have really maximized the players around Booker so that he really only had to grow his efficiency as a scorer — the one area where he was already a standout player. Paul added necessary playmaking/shooting, they brought in expert 3&D wings, and added Dayton for rim protection, efficient low-post scoring, and rebounding. So if you’re 100% committed to Booker, all the other moves were ideal.
Look, like it or not, the tippy-top requirement skill for NBA teams is a guy who can get a one-on-one bucket. And Book does that if not much else (hm I might have just talked myself into drafting Cam Thomas).
All that being said — do you take a chance on trading for Sexton as that kind of player prototype?
Idk his exact numbers, but I’m guessing they are around Booker’s at the same age. Yes, Sexton is shorter and might need a larger playmaker next to him (Ball?) but feel free to discuss…
This times 10,000. The doctrinal numbers miss both playing style/temperament and the ability to singlehandedly bail out possessions. Usage is an ok proxy for the latter, but only ok.
i don’t think anyone is blaming them for the injuries… they didn’t tonya harding anthony davis.. jamal murray or kawhi leonard… but they certainly played against teams without these guys..
i mean if you want to talk about amazing luck and talk about draymond green and kyrie and love injuries… well the suns got the equivalent of all that in one playoff run and then some…. if you’re calling golden state or the cavs lucky when they got a few games go their way…. what do you call the suns that got 14 games? that’s like 5-7x as lucky by that standard right?
the whole issue is that it’s a rather obscene amount of injury luck…. it’s not some close thing where you can analyze whatever butterfly effect if you changed one thing.. they got this benefit their whole playoff run.. including playing a team that was the benefactor of some injuries too on their run also…
You’re overdoing it. Bottom line he’s saying he would have maxed Booker, thus agreeing with you. Celebrate it!
i think adding beal or lavine to a randle+rj+mitch core has a shot to be a perennial top 4 seed for the next 4-5 years… the appeal of those guys is that they’re young enough to give us a pretty long window…
I think if RJ ever gets to this level, it will be because he learns to feast within 15 ft of the basket.
Don’t get me wrong – it’s awesome that he hit over 40% from 3; he’ll need that (or a close approximation) moving forward. But with his strength, I’d love to see continue to develop his and-1 opps and use the threat of a drive + crafty dribbling to create space for pull-up Js.
Also… I know alot of the debate about Randle’s future is looked through the prism of him currently being our best players. And I know we’re all excited by the possibility of a Third Year Jump by RJ. Are any of us considering that it may be possible that RJ’s next jump evolves the discussion to the prospect of the team building around him as the 1A to Randle’s 1B?
Personally I scoffed at maxing Booker because stats and I was happy, literally happy when we drafted Frank because defense — and that for a change the world made sense again. Haha.
The Suns have certainly benefitted from some luck, probably more than the average conference champion, but at the end of the day you still have to be a damn good team to capitalize on luck enough to make, let alone win, the finals.
What I don’t understand is the notion being implied by some that their success somehow serves as a counterpoint to the kind of team building strategy espoused by Team Greek Chorus. We’ve talked about this before but it was…pretty much exactly what we’ve begged the Knicks to do. They drafted both high and well, took advantage of having productive players on rookie-scale and/or mini-max deals, waited until their young core proved formidable, and then pushed all their chips in on CP3 to complement said core.
Sure, they made mistakes along the way and did some things us in the Greek choir wouldn’t do e.g. salary dumping TJ Warren, Josh Jackson, and De’Anthony Melton, but can anyone seriously argue that those moves are contributing to their success right now? That’s nonsense–they’re successful in spite of them.
Am i the only one who sees Booker as a younger BBeal?
Yeah, you’re right, Sexton reminds me a lot of pre-max Booker. My first instinct is that i wouldn’t do it, but seeing how Booker has improved and is a valuable player now, i think i might reconsider. If the price is low, maybe it’s a good move, but i think i’d prefer to try (a lot of) other avenues first.
“beware of Greeks bearing gifts”
If a team wanted to trade its star for an RJ centered package wouldn’t that be suspicious enough to keep him in NY?
Calling facing the Nuggets without Murray “luck”, despite the fact that the Nuggets record began to improve the day Murray went down, does little to convince me that the Suns had some unprecedented red-carpet path to a second round sweep. But it does, a casu, illustrate that Booker on a max isn’t a no-brainer, because it shows that Booker-like players are rather easily replaceable to an extent. (Personally, I like Booker more and think he’s a better basketball player than Murray, but as Jowles has pointed out, there are similarities. I don’t like Murray on a max contract even when he’s healthy, but, who knows, maybe this time two years from now the Nuggets will be 2 wins away from a championship and somebody will find this in the archives and make me feel stupid for ever saying anything bad about his contract).
Actually, they pushed only a scant few of their chips in on CP3. That’s the beauty of it, they didn’t kill their future by making an all-in move. If CP3 didn’t work out, they’d be on the hook for at most his walk year, where he’d be a giant expiring deal. It was as win-later as it was a win-now move.
I think you and JK are right about Booker, Murray, and Mitchell. But I still need to be convinced the same logic is true for RJ Barrett. He doesn’t score like those guys. I can see him being unmovable with three years and $115mm remaining on his deal.
The Suns went all-in on the idea that their bubble performance, which could easily have been a fluke, meant that they were really and truly on the launching pad. That was by no means a given and many teams have been burned by overrating high late-season performance. I’d say the general consensus at this time a year ago is that they were getting over their skis a bit, but in retrospect obviously they weren’t.
It was a very smart management of risk and reward by them. Might have burned them and it still would have been very smart.
Murray, Booker, Mitchell, Tatum, Brown…all of these guys are excellent assets at the rookie-scale max. As JK pointed out last thread, its the next contract that will be dodgy. Will they continue to develop into legit megamax players? All of them are open questions. If I had to order them, it would be Tatum, Booker, Mitchell, Brown, Murray. Maybe Mitchell deserves to be higher. But none of them are clost to being worth $40+ mill AAV right now.
Yeah that is the concern with RJ, I don’t think he will be as great a scorer of those guys but he offers some better defense. He is pretty comparable to Jaylen Brown in year two, the major red flag is 2p% but is also a year younger that Jaylen was.
It’s really hard to predict improvement on these guys, but I like the comparison between the two bc i believe they both really work hard on their game and both play for pretty decent coaches.
Not only considering it, but hoping for it. Thus the question of whether JR works as a second option, both moneywise and basketball-wise.
I think Tatum is already as “30% of the cap is probably under his value” level. The others, I think 30% is probably fair enough. I’d put Brown as #2 behind Tatum. Boy, he developed so amazingly. Pretty much the perfect evolution for a player like him.
Really, though, 30% of the cap is so reasonable that you’d be hard to find any young star where it doesn’t make sense to just give it to them. It’s less that these guys are so amazing and more like, where else are you going to get guys like them? They’re nearly irreplaceable.
Yeah, I really like Brown too, but wonder if he’s closer to his ceiling than the other guys.
RJ is headed down the same path, but next year will tell us a lot about whether he belongs in that group. He certainly looks like a guy on his way to a rookie-scale max.
Mitchell didn’t come into the league until 21 (another reason he dropped in the draft). Murray was no world beater at 20. Booker was clearly the better scorer at 20, but he’s not much of a defender.
RJ doesn’t score like those guys yet, but surprisingly he defends a lot better than we feared. So assuming his offense plateaus below those guys, it’s not like we are stuck with a bad player. He’s still a very good piece even if he’s not a #1 scorer.
I think folks should pump the brakes a bit on Phoenix as the success story that validates or invalidates some theory of winning basketball. They had six straight losing seasons before this one. You’ve got to be Knicks/TWolves-level incompetent to not accumulate a lot of talent in the process. And with that, it’s hard to overstate how much their success this season is reliant on a 35-year-old Chris Paul.
Would anyone really be that surprised if this run to the Finals is followed next season by the Suns pulling a Heat and looking very, VERY far away from a legit contender?
MIke
IMO, that’s it exactly.
We’d all rather be giving the max to a young Lebron, Durant, Giannis, Doncic etc.. but you can’t quit the league if you don’t have one of those guys and you can’t tank indefinitely hoping the lottery balls eventually cooperate in the exact perfect year when one is available. You have to keep moving forward and keep trying to develop and improve the quality of your players. You never know who is going to take a surprising leap up or who is going to become available.
Boston is in a great spot with Tatum and Brown. They have 2 very good young players that are going to continue improving. If they made any mistakes under Ainge, they were mistakes of omission. They should have been more aggressive in trades when they had all those excess picks. But they can fix that and get back in the mix if they remain healthy next year and add the right player or two.
IMO the Suns are some combination of demonstrating how hard it can be and how long it can take to successfully build out of the draft, a success story for actually doing it, and smart for adding CP3 (and Crowder) despite concerns about his salary and whether he could remain healthy/still play at a very high level all while being unsure if it made sense given their stage of development). They were also a bit lucky given some of the injuries that impacted their opposition. That’s all part of it though. Sometimes the team that wins the title is not the best team in the NBA. They put themselves in a good position and things worked out. Now they have a chance to win it all.
I think everyone knew the Heat was still one player away from serious contention even after their amazing run last year. They took a shot with Oladipo but that didn’t work. They also had a lot of issues with injuries and Covid protocol this past season (kind of like Boston) . That’s why they had a rougher season than expected. Riley knows exactly where they are and what they need. He has some flexibility, but there are no guarantees. Bam and Butler are a good start and they have a few other young role players. They have to find the right 3rd player and then fill it out.
I think the thing with him is that those other guys are never going to sniff his current level of defense. There sure aren’t a ton of defensive stoppers who can shoot like Brown and while the others will surely work on their defense, if you’re not a stopper by now, you’re almost certainly not going to be grow into one (you might go for bad to decent, but you’re not going to be a stopper) and Brown is already one. While dudes who have already improved their shooting by this point like Brown (always the trick of whether you can do it period) very often get even better as they get older, so I think Brown has some room to grow as a scorer while already by far the best defender of the bunch. But yes, he might not grow as much on offense, but his current defense is so damn good I’d still take him over the others.
Tatum, though, has the major height advantage over all of them (Dude’s six eight!! Mitchell is barely over six foot), is a good defender and is already at that “you can’t stop him even if you make it your mission to stop him” level on offense, which is why I think he’s the tops of the bunch. He’s a step below dudes like Lebron and Durant, but not a huge step below.
such a glorious FIBA frank highlight…i’m not sure, but, i think france may be using him as their point guard…
He’s probably going to be a pain the a$$ against the Knicks for years to come. lol
Frank is only going to be a pain in the ass for the Knicks if we re-sign him or the Knicks stop employing NBA players.
But yeah, he’s fun to watch in FIBA. Also, I don’t think he’s actually playing PG for them. If he is, then he needs to answer for letting a 30 yr old Rubio put up 23pts on him.
Still can’t believe he turned down $45M over two from Houston. And can’t really believe that Houston offered that.
It sure didn’t hurt to have MPJ waiting to pick up the volume scoring. He’s going to earn every bit of his max extension, and the Nuggets will happily pay him if they know what’s good for them. Jokic, Porter and Murray is about as good a trio of homegrown stars as we’ve seen since the 2012 Thunder or 2015 Warriors, or will be very soon. Porter is a couple years away from peaking and it’s not hard to see him as an absolute usage black hole on .630 TS% or better. Their offense will be positively stacked, and Jokic still makes better every role player around him, so long as they’re willing to move without the ball in their hands (which is nearly everyone they sign).
I know the Nuggets did well without Murray until the PHX series, but I have to believe that they would have been better off — although still not good enough — had they given every one of Rivers’ and Morris’ minutes to him. There are very few players in the league who can turn around a -15 MOV over four games.
tatum entered the league at 6ft 8 but he’s definitely grown since then…. he might be closer to 6ft 10 now…
We’ll see if he ever locks down our traditional PG and hits a few important 3s. 🙂
He almost never plays traditional PG for France. The entire PG narrative was some kind of fake news story that came out of the triangle era via Berman, Hahn, Szczerbiak, Clyde, and fan wishful thinking because we had no PG. He was drafted to play “guard” in the triangle where he would be a fit. He’s supposed to be a Danny Green/George Hill type player. In fact, the year Mills signed Hardaway, Phil was supposedly after George Hill to be the veteran guard to take Frank under his wing for a few years and then hand over the reins.
Tatum can carry a team when he’s on. He’s clearly a max player.
Frank is gonna be a huge headache for at least some Knick fans when people post his European highlights on this board and insist he got the short shrift in the NBA
6ft 8 was shorter than I thought he was, but either way, the dude is tall.
Kevin Knox will end up playing in Europe too
Team USA now 0-2 in exhibitions. #NotGreatBob
Shades of 2004, as I said. It doesn’t take a Nostradumbass to see it.
Let’s gooooooookoo!!!!!! Frank highlights!!!! Yes!!!!
🙂
They did get me hyped:
The rest of the World is getting better and while it’s not quite a “they aren’t sending their best” situation, Durant is going to have to carry a heavy load. Not sure Lillard and Beal are his perfect wingmen either.
NYC Director – I would be down for Payne/Dinwoddie but not sure how you prise the former away from the Suns.
Hubert- what were the odds like on the Giannis MVP bet and how much better a hedge was it?
Re, Team USA: If KD and Dame Lillard take these games seriously, there’s literally nothing the rest of the world will be able to do to stop Team USA. These are big ifs, though, and I sure as hell hope Popp doesn’t go out sad.
—
Re, Phoenix: Their draft strategy since 2018 has really been to hit singles in the draft, and that’s exactly what they did with Ayton, Bridges, and Cam Johnson. It helps a whole lot when you hit multiple years in a row during the draft, and that’s especially true when you have Devin Booker and can trade basically nothing for Chris Paul. If the Knicks hit on another player in this draft, that would make 4 years in a row (Mitch, RJ, IQ, and then whoever we take this year), and I’d bet we do considering we’re going into the draft with 4 picks. All of that being said…
——
I’m not trying to trade anybody off this roster right now. Literally none of our young guys are at the peak of their values, and every star on the trade market isn’t created equally. Sometimes you get a guy like Russell Westbrook on the market, other times you get a guy like Kawhi Leonard on the market. I’m not trading for a star player just to watch him play my-turn-your-turn with Julius Randle. I’d rather we continue down the asset accumulation road and let Zach LaVine walk into our cap space next summer. The trade should come when Jokic is tired of Jamaal Murray and Michael Porter Jr and demands to go play with LaVine and Julius Randle in New York. That’s when you give up everything in a trade.
I was sayin to myself while watching the exhibition loss that Tatum is having a KD like spurt..while he’s in the NBA. This kid is gonna be a major problem to defend- even more so than he is now. Yikes! I don’t know how Team USA lost yesterday with a super interchangeable starting lineup of Dame/Beal/Tatum/KD/Bam. They should have ran and defended Australia off the floor. I dunno..maybe Pop is just experimenting. He’s been known to purposely wait to get his guys to play for real when it’s time
Owen: Giannis was plus 300 and the Bucks were plus 140. But I hedged my hedge by taking Middleton just in case, and that turned out to be a waste.
for the record I am rooting for the Suns to win just so CP3 gets his ring, but the most entertaining thing would really be for the Suns to lose, because the CP3 and Cam Payne summer might really be interesting (Reviewed in detail on the KFS podcast). Assuming CP3 opts out and wants at least a 3 year deal, and that Cam Payne has probably played himself to at least an $10+MM AAV, that PHX team is going to get very very expensive soon (ie. after next season) with Ayton’s likely max extension, Booker making the max, and a very large extension for Mikal –> this would equal the Suns being well over the luxury tax and likely in the repeater tax for 2022 through whenever CP’s contract ends. Would not be surprising to see Sarver try to worm out of paying everyone, which may lead to CP3 walking after this season. If the Suns somehow lose the Finals, Sarver is too cheap to bring everyone back, and the Suns take a step back next year, then it is really Devin Booker-watch time.
Re: Mikal Bridges. People are saying he should be expected to make $20+MM x 4 years, which of course he totally deserves. But why are people saying Mikal will get like 4 / 88 and we are here asking whether RJ will get a max extension? I love me some RJ, but dudes – Mikal is a way better player than RJ. I mean, it’s not even close. Mikal is a better defender than RJ, full stop. He’s a way better shooter than RJ across the board – TS 66.7 albeit on lower usage. He shoots 54/42/84, with slightly worse rebounding and assist numbers. (Granted, Mikal is like 3-4 years older than RJ).
Unless RJ makes a gigantic step forward in terms of playmaking and 2P% (like 4.5 assists/36, >50% 2P%, continues to shoot near 40% on 3’s), any talk of max extension will be purely related to pedigree. He’s got a great mindset, made great improvements this year, and I love the kid, but he’s just not that good (yet).
2 things non Knicks related:
1. Kumar Rocker actually fell to the Mets
2. Alonso in the Derby last night..Holy fuck!
Knicks stuff!
I totally see the FO going hard for Kyle Lowry and keeping 3 picks(I’m thinking a trade of 32 58 Knox to get back into the 1st) and leaving the draft with 2 wings and a C. That might actually be the smartest move the team can make this offseason. Do that and bring Rose, Taj, and Bullock back. I’d rather bring Noel back over Taj..but between he and Bullock, Noel’s gonna cost the most. But..if we could bring Noel, Rose, and Bullock back to give the kids more to learn from along with Lowry? That would be GREAT
Springer is definitely on my list of PG candidates with that 19th pick. Though at this point, I wonder if he’ll make it to 19.
I asked the same question last week and got no response.
Mikal Bridges can and will be extended for under the max but RJ Barrett can’t get anything less? It makes no sense.
Draft pedigree is the only reason people are blind to this obvious logical flaw.
I see them as very similar in the sense that if one of those guys is the 4th best player on your team, you’ve got a great team. But if one of those guys is your #2 and his salary is so high it prevents you from gettting a #1, you are probably going nowhere.
bridges has microscopic usage…. and the perception of him being good.. which he absolutely is… is based on the fact that he limits himself to only the best of opportunities… most of which were drastically improved with the arrival of cp3…. he has sky high efficiency because of it …. but he tries to shoot more.. his 2p% is not going to be anywhere near 64%
there’s reason to believe that bridges can expand his game a little bit and that’s kind of where 20+ mm figures come from… he’s an above average role player and that’s basically what brogdon got who’s also an above average role player..
RJ’s not better on an aggregate level in terms of efficiency because it’s hard to beat the kind of efficiency a good player gets when he limits himself to 10 shots a game… but he is capable of doing things that bridges will never get to in his career… we’ll know more in the next couple of years what that will look like but if you believe that booker is more valuable than bridges then you can see the case where RJ is also worth more..
Personally, I think it’s related to how players are valued in the NBA.
Bridges was and still is seen as an excellent 3&D role player slowly expanding his offensive game and efficiency at age 24.
RJ is seen as an eventual all star because he scores in more ways and defends well. People are projecting further expansion of his skills and greater efficiency at what he already does well.
The NBA drafts higher and pays more for scoring versatility and upside.
Edit: I agree with what Djphan just said. 🙂
And I will be more than happy to max RJ when those projected skills become real. Just not before.
I’m a big Springer fan, but I also really want to test drive Sharife Cooper, Cam Thomas, and Trey Murphy. Springer will probably go before our picks, but you have to think at least one of these very interesting players will drop to 19 (and if they don’t, that means a super-role player like Wagner or Kispert has fallen).
This draft should be pretty exciting. Lots of talent and there are many directions our Knicks could go in.
Shams in his notebook today says “The Knicks are the most aggressive trade suitor for Cavaliers guard Collin Sexton, sources said.”
I really don’t know what kind of package they’d be looking for but I actually like Sexton quite a bit as a player for us – still just 22 and has made huge strides each year he has been in the league. He’s turning himself into a really good offensive player and a really good fit stylistically for a Thibs team in my opinion: score-first guard who can can self-create a lot of offense and have his defensive weaknesses covered by the team structure.
If we’re going to trade assets for a guy who can help us right now we also ideally want it to be a guy who has a lot of upside left because we’re not really close to contending now – Sexton fits that profile to me. It’s not a sure thing obviously – we’re talking about a 22-year old whose rebuilding team is apparently making him pretty available – but it’s the right type of gamble for a team in our position in my opinion.
Springer is full-stop my #1 choice when it comes to guys who could plausibly be available at #19. He is still going to be 18 on draft night and put up a really nice statistical profile in the SEC. That’s pretty rare!
I watched a lot of Tennessee games because both him and Keon Johnson were plausible targets before it was clear we’d be too good for the latter and personally always came away more impressed with Springer. There’s also reason to believe Johnson’s role and Springer’s health prevented him from showing everything he could do.
Re: Sexton, I agree with stam that he’d be an exciting player to add. I’m hesitant to give up both trade assets and cap flexibility for him though, so couldn’t support a deal in which we surrender a lot.
So what’s an acceptable deal for us that Cleveland would agree to? Sexton was a lottery pick a few years ago. Would they unload him for the 19th pick just to avoid paying the guy?
Just after the Shams piece came out, a verified but small-time Cavs writer tweeted this:
With a gun to my head…I think I accept this as long as there’s not a penny more on our end. I could also change my mind 5 minutes from now, but I think this is the framework of a sensible deal.
Feels like that’s selling low on Obi, even after his struggles this season. But he probably needs to be traded somewhere. If it’s for Sexton, they’d better be right.
Yeah, I’m weirdly interested in Sexton (Booker recency bias maybe?) but he does also seem like a great fit for Thibs.
I have to assume he would cost more than picks because he was a fairly high pick. I don’t think 19 and 21 will get it done. They probably would want Quickly or Obi in any trade, which I don’t like, and I definitely don’t want Mitch involved.
One thing that would be fun would be to install a Cooper/Mitch pnr, even though drafting Cooper clearly wouldn’t be Thibs’ first choice. This team really needs to unlock Mitch’s max value, and getting him above the rim on like every other play via Cooper would do that. That would just be 20 easy points a game if Cooper just becomes an average shooter. I’m afraid if we trade for Sexton, we miss out on that.
Cooper/RJ/Murphy/Randle/Mitch is my dream lineup, but it’s one that’s obviously farther from competing than a lineup with Sexton or another vet or two in it, and I’m sure this team doesn’t want to take any perceived steps backward.
Collin Sexton is very likely the worst qualified defensive player in the league. For the 2021 season, he ranked 434th in ORAPM and 520th in DRAPM for an overall rank of 520.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vRDbpET9PUorhyjaw4DsPLszr8xc-tes0Ae2rp3Wwr2vxPvjUoXeY0lUNQq_mq8YgOKSWYz5Xz43fCE/pubhtml?gid=0&single=true
Every other impact metric I could find suggested the same about his defense. Just absolute dreck.
I feel like there’s a certain kind of desperation to do something, anything that leads to calls to trade for Collin Sexton. He would destroy the rebuild immediately.
Like, Quickley may never be a pure PG, but he is already worlds better than Sexton (69th RAPM, ayyyy lmfao) and his low draft slot ensures that he won’t get a max for simply being a lottery pick. Put Quickley at PG/SG and let him grow into it.
Hah, endowment effect in action. I’m worried that we’d be selling low on Obi, while Cavs fans are flipping out that this is the reported package that would work.
If we keep Randle, we might be doing Obi a favor.
That said, I wm not a fan of giving up assets to acquire an undersized combo guard who can’t defend. Better assets for that price will become available. Obi looked pretty good down the stretch and in the playoffs. I’d prefer to stand pat and see who is available at #19.
I can’t believe we are linked with Sexton.
Sexton fills me with dread wondering what kinda contract hes gonna get on his next deal. I dont want us to be the ones to find out
With Obi & a pick I’d want something else back from Cleveland, they’re looking to dump Sexton presumably because they’re planning on drafting a ball dominant guy.
I don’t know how bad Sexton’s defense is, but he is a small guard who isn’t really a point guard.
Shams on Sexton:
Doesn’t sound like a guy I want to give up assets for and then overpay. Cleveland would do well do end up with Obi and the 19 for the right to not max him.
Sexton has definitely been a bad defensive player on some very bad defensive teams in Cleveland but I don’t really buy the all-in-one metrics showing him as the biggest problem on defense there. NBA defense is way too defined by your big men for a guard to ever be that influential on a teams defense one way or the other in my estimation.
And even aside from that the formula of defense-first in the frontcourt and offense-first in the backcourt is one that really seems to work for Thibs. A big part of what makes Thibs a positive value coach is that he takes a mishmash of pieces that doesn’t look like an elite defense on the surface and makes them into one. I don’t see Sexton as such a problematic defender that he will make it impossible for Thibs to make the team defend well and the trajectory of his offensive improvement is fantastic.
The Suns had the second best record in the league this year. They had the best record on the road, high SRS, etc. They’re not a team that caught lightning in a bottle, they were one of the best teams in the league.
I agree, DRed. They were really, really good. I’m just saying that they caught some lucky breaks to make it through the West how they did. Kawhi is irreplaceable and the Clippers still took them to six. The Murray thing, as noted, is likely moot. And the Davis injury certainly didn’t hurt their chances.
I’d give Sexton a try. He does shoot well and attacks the basket. He also gives good effort on the defensive end. But..I’m not giving them Obi in that deal. Nah. Not for someone who doesn’t run the offense better than what we already have on the roster. I would offer Knox, 19, 58, and a pick swap- take it or leave it
sexton’s contract situation is an issue…. and while obi’s future on this team is in question.. him and/or IQ would be key to a potential deadline deal for beal/lavine if we wanted to go that route… sexton i imagine would be tough to unload … especially after this year if we resign him…
i don’t really see us grabbing sexton unless we really think he’s going to be our pg…. which i can’t imagine is the case… otherwise we’d basically be moving all-in this summer as he’d be taking the slot for next summer’s big FA class..
and so i’d be really hesitant to give up anything of value…. even pick 32 i see as too much…. i’d give them pick 58 and maaaybe the 2023 dallas pick…. or some future 2nds… there’s absolutely no reason to be giving up 1sts or anything of value…. even obi…
Count me as a thumbs down on Sexton.
He’s probably going to turn into a dynamite scorer. That is one of our needs. But he’s not a true PG (meaning a lot of the offense will still run through Randle), doesn’t defend a lick, won’t come cheaply, and we are going to have to pay him. He doesn’t check enough boxes for me at a likely big price. Plus, I think I’d like to hear him in some interviews. I get a kind of “knucklehead” vibe from him watching him play sometimes, but admittedly I haven’t see a lot.
Sexton is a year younger than Obi. So there’s that.
Sexton is definitely not a “pure” PG but his passing which was comically poor for a player with his usage profile his first two seasons was a lot better last year. Despite moving off the ball a lot more to accommodate Garland his Ast% jumped from 15% his first two seasons to 22%. And I’m not sure the Knicks or Thibs really want a pure PG, especially to play with Randle. Sexton’s Ast% last season is right in the range of what the Knicks got from their PGs (Rose 26%, Payton 22%, IQ 16%). If you’re not a believer in what Randle did last year and think he needs to be in a more dependent role with a star primary ball handler to go the next level then I think there’s legit questions about whether Sexton can be that player. But for the system the Knicks ran last year I definitely think he’s point guard-y enough.
Devin Booker age 22 season: .076 WS48 3.3 OBPM -2.3 DBPM 1.0 BPM 1.7 VORP
Colin Sexton age 22 season: .080 WS48 1.9 OBPM -1.9 DBPM 0.0 BPM 1.0 VORP
Just going to leave this here. I wouldn’t do the trade for that price, but at least I can see where the FO is going with this. Ultimately, I’d rather draft a pg and just sign Cam Payne.
I believe Randle can continue to pile up assists if you run the offense through him a lot of the time, but I think he’s not as good a playmaker as many PGs. You are also going to get a lot of foolish TOs. I think the team would be better if Randle did less even if Randle’s own stats took a hit.
To be honest, based on some of the stuff Berman writes, I’m not sure management has a good idea what they want other than a need for scoring and shooting. There doesn’t seem to be much of a pattern to the style of player being mentioned. Lonzo for example is nothing like Sexton. Maybe Berman is full of crap or being fed nonsense to not tip our hand.
Building your team around JR in his current role is the road to Nowheresville and if that’s the premise behind the Sexton trade, I can’t possibly get on board.
I’m not even sold on the idea that Sexton is better than Immanuel Quickley straight up and if in fact, Thibs is the one pushing hard for Sexton, it’s just another one for ye ol’ Thibs Bizarrometer.
I see he hit a stepback three in those highlights. That’s the shot that might keep him in the NBA, if he actually starts using it more often. I only remember him taking and hitting one of those last year for the Knicks.
Collin Sexton, huh? I wonder what the Knicks are offering?
I’m really hoping that Kumar Rocker doesn’t meet Tommy John any time soon…
I think the FO knows exactly what they want to do and I believe they probably have plans A through Z already written down in detail with contingencies based on every possible scenario that might play out in free agency and the draft. The fact that you’re seeing so many “the knicks might want this player” articles is because A) Its the Knicks and those articles always exist B) we have cap space C) we have draft capital and D) we are actually a desirable team to play for now and E) The FO is probably sending out smokescreens because they don’t want other FO’s knowing their plans.
This happened last year before the draft too. No one knew WTF we were going to do and people thought it meant there was division. Rose knows what he’s doing.
TRUST THIS FRONT OFFICE UNTIL THEY GIVE US REASON NOT TO.
You know who Kumar Rocker reminds me of? Prime Matt Harvey. That guy was pretty good.
Mid-90’s heat with some run on it, and a wipeout slider that is just toxic. Best breaking ball in the entire draft class.
College pitchers rack up some pretty high pitch counts, and Rocker’s famous 19-strikeout game against Duke was up in the 130’s. So TJS is always lurking out there. Good news is most pitchers come back pretty well from it these days.
Agreed. Maybe it’s a bit of orange-colored greediness, but while I wouldn’t hate to trade Obi in this instance, I’d much prefer to hold onto Obi for at least another season to see how his improved late-season and playoff play translates into next preseason and early season. It’s more than reasonable to bet that Sexton will be better than anyone we draft at 19. So I’d be fine with consolidating all those late picks into a player that has legit upside like Sexton.
That is not true…
A Sexton/Lonzo backcourt would be pretty interesting…
True, but with Matthew Allan getting TJS this year, I’m hoping Rocker can maybe be up late next year with the Mets. They really need a young inexpensive quality starter for the next 2-3 years until Allan can recover and hopefully slot in.
It seems Rocker pitched 122 innings this year, so maybe the Mets shut him down for the rest of this year and shoot for 150-160 innings next year? He has such a powerful lower body that maybe he can avoid TJS for awhile…
Right but Kawhi missed 2 full seasons bc of an injury and has to be load managed ever since. Saying they clippers would have beaten the Suns if they only had Kawhi…part of the risk of having Kawhi on your team is you may not have him when you most need him. So that has to be factored as a weakness of that team.
Just saying that if you have stars who are injury prone, I don’t think you can cry “we would have won if we had our star.”
I already said it, I watched a lot of Cavs games and I’m very scared by Colin Sexton.
Trade for him and re-sign him at the expected cost and you’ll probably going to regret it.
It’s true that he made some progress, he’s still young and (pseudo) PG often grow slowly, but he’s still selfish, a sieve on defense and a known troublemaker in the locker room.
I’m not sure he can give us much more than IQ actually does (I think that Quickley on the Cavs as the starting PG could have put up close to Sexton’s offensive numbers).
Ask yourself why a young team like the Cavs will trade him and keep Garland, or why his assets cost can be so low…
This looks like a “I need do something to keep my owner quiet” move, but writers need to write and this is rumors season so…
EDIT: I’ll tend to agree with Swift about trusting the FO until showed otherwise.
Yeah there were articles saying we wanted to take Obi. So what? There were articles saying we’d take Haliburton, trade up for LaMelo, take what’s his name from Florida state.
If you make a dozen different predictions about something and one of them turns out to be true, that doesn’t make you Nostradamus.
Here are my Finals predictions.
Suns in 5
Suns in 6
Suns in 7
Bucks in 6
Bucks in 7
If one of these is right then I knew it all along.
There is no doubt that Sexton isn’t a good defender, but his physical tools provide some hope for him on that end. Maybe you regard this as some kind of character issue, but I also can’t imagine it being easy to motivate yourself to play both ends for the Cleveland Cavaliers of the past three seasons.
With enough time to consider everything, I’d probably arrive at the conclusion that staying the course and making our picks is more likely to lead to contention than a Sexton trade. However I do think people are being a bit dismissive of a guy who shoots ~60% at the rim and ~38% from 3, is 22 years old, and as others have pointed out appears to be on an upward trajectory.
Ha!
I want to remind everyone that Obi sucked for his 683 regular season minutes. I liked him more than others here, but he couldn’t shoot, defend, rebound, or score. He also doesn’t have a future here and is already older than Sexton.
Knox is hot garbage.
We’d effectively be trading the 19th pick for Sexton.
This seems like a no-brainer.
Trading for Sexton also frees up ~$8M in salary this year and leaves us enough cap room, even with his cap hold, to make a play for Beal or LaVine next year.
Oh! And who doesnt love Quick-Sex in the backcourt?
I’d prefer Long-Sex, as does my wife, but to each his own…
LOL Pure Gold….
Pass on Sexton. I mean he might be good one day but he’s not particularly good now. If we’re trading away young players and/or picks for someone, I want it to be for someone we know is actually good now.
Also, Obi did suck but didn’t suck nearly as much the last half of the season and looked very promising in the playoffs. Considering we don’t know what will happen with Randle yet, I would like to hold on to Obi because I think he will be much better this second season. Even if we get Randle to sign the extension, Randle could ultimately be that guy we trade as the centerpiece for an even better star player in a year or two.
@Clash,
Well played
so how can you say the front office is tight lipped if you just chalk up every leak as a lucky guess? that’s sort of like assuming you have perfect information and that everyone else is wrong except you right? do you know something i don’t or something?
that’s not even mentioning we had a whole front office expose outlining our entire offseason strategy that leaked… i honestly don’t know where the whole leon rose has turned msg into fort knox has come from…
LOL, best argument to trade for the guy that i’ve seen. ;D
This is basically where I am too. I’d be totally happy for us to stand pat even if it means a little bit of a consolidation year. But I don’t really get the feeling that’s what the front office has in mind and if we are going to start pushing in some chips I think we could do a lot worse than taking a pretty low cost gamble on a very young veteran with a pretty decent established level on offense, good upside still remaining and a decent stylistic fit with Randle.
I don’t think they’re leaks.
It doesn’t take any sort of effort for a sports journalist to say “The Knicks are interested in Lonzo Ball” or whoever. Lonzo is a possible free agent, Knicks have cap space. Someone in the Knicks FO can say “yeah we’re interested” and it means absolutely nothing bc in theory they’re “interested” in anyone. So I wouldn’t even call that a leak. I would call it giving reporters a quote in order to keep them happy so they can continue to create content for fans who are hungry for it in the off season. Literally every player in the top 15 of the draft last year you can google their name and knicks and find an article saying we were interested. And maybe we were!
That’s totally different than an actual plan being leaked by the media. I mean, seriously, every single free agent and possibly available player has been linked to the Knicks in the last few weeks. Lowry, Derozan, Conley, Lonzo, Sexton, CP3, etc. The list goes on and on. Are we signing all of them?
When I first read the Sexton rumors this morning I was like please no. But then looking at his numbers he is MUCH better than I thought, someone compared him to IQ which is laughable. Last 2 seasons Sexton has shot 50% from 2pt range to go along with 37% from 3pt and over 80% from the FT line. He is much more efficient than I thought since I had the impression he was just a young inefficient guy who shoots all the time but thats far from the case.
I’m not saying he’s someone the Knicks should trade for but you can do alot worse than a 22yo guard coming off a season where he averaged 24 ppg with a 48/37/82 slash line along with 4 ast and 3 reb. I understand the defensive reputation and again I’m not advocating trading for him but if they do acquire him it certainly would be intriguing and not the end of the world especially since it doesn’t look like it will cost many assets although he will be getting paid after next season.
I like a TON of Sex and I like it Quickley.
the whole play for beal and lavine next year is highly dependent on who else we sign….. i know dolan doesn’t mind spending but sexton’s next contract + max’s to rj… randle.. and lavine/beal.. along with whatever mitch will get on his next contract… that would probably put us way over the tax line and i’d have to think even dolan would balk at that kind of spending….
that’s not what they said tho.. they said Toppin would be the pick if he was there…
Sort of like this right?
https://nypost.com/2021/03/09/how-leon-rose-rebuilt-the-knicks-an-inside-look/
I think, for some reason, secrecy in the front office has been determined to be a positive attribute (I don’t know why, exactly), and so despite clear signs that they aren’t tight-lipped, it gets argued for for some reason. We saw the same thing with Phil Jackson, who also wasn’t tight-lipped and yet was talked about like he was.
**the whole play for beal and lavine next year is highly dependent on who else we sign….. i know dolan doesn’t mind spending but sexton’s next contract + max’s to rj… randle.. and lavine/beal.. along with whatever mitch will get on his next contract… that would probably put us way over the tax line and i’d have to think even dolan would balk at that kind of spending….**
True. I believe we would have 1 year before RJ is eligible for his raise and after we can always trade one of those guys for draft picks to avoid it and simultaneously retool a bit.
They’re not the highest quality stars ever, but Sexton/Beal/RJ/Randle/Mitch would make for a formidable team in 2022.
Also for those saying they’d rather a pure PG, we could still sign Ball after a Sexton trade. Even for a stupid amount like the max (~$28M), we’d have $30M in cap space left this year to fill the roster or make another signing/absorb a big contract.
The luxury implications will be problematic eventually, but I just want to point out we still can make moves and aren’t too limited if we acquire Sexton.
This seems like a legit path, but if you do it, you are pretty locked into that lineup. So if it really goes to shit, you might end up having to trade Randle a year later to attempt a reset.
It does seem like making fairly smart draft picks and and signing budget-friendly free agents worked pretty well last year… so maybe the FO should lean towards that route again?
DJ, that post article is what they did AFTER the fact, not before. How is that a leak?
**This seems like a legit path, but if you do it, you are pretty locked into that lineup. So if it really goes to shit, you might end up having to trade Randle a year later to attempt a reset.**
Luckily Randle & Sexton are FAs next year, so if it *really* goes to shit you can let them walk or negotiate their next contract down.
I’m not sure it’ll be as easy to find budget FAs this year, and there’s no guarantee they work out as well as Burks & Noel.
Excuse me for not being impressed by Sexton trade plans.
Another Frank?
Sexton would be a horrible mistake at any price, but I’m not going to whinge until it’s a reality. Terrifying.
I have severe reservations about Sexton, but he’s young and compares favorably to Donovan Mitchell in their age 22 seasons.
There’s a good chance pick 19, Obi, and Knox are sitting at the end of a bench or out of the league before long. It’s just such a low price to pay for a player that may breakout soon.
That’s okay. Not everyone likes or wants Sex……ton.
But seriously, the guy is a heck of a scorer, but he’s like 6’1″, not a defender or distributor, and supposedly a jerk of some kind. What are the locker room rumors about him?
I don’t know…maybe offer Knox and the #21 pick….take a flyer on the guy growing up a bit and being willing to improve? Not enough to get it done, I know.
i don’t know how many front offices have their entire strategy publicized before or after the fact…. and certainly not many front offices where givony has pretty high conviction to call his shot on a draft pick that far down the lottery….
i also don’t get the distinction that this front office has some sort of kremlin like hold on its insiders before the draft but give them an open license afterwards…. seems to me that a massive leak of its entire offseason strategy goes hand in hand with leaks of it’s first draft pick.. does that sound plausible enough? or do you still believe these are just massive coincidences and a bunch of people making lucky guesses?
I would cautiously say yes to #21 + Knox + Obi for Sexton, although presumably we’d have to take on something else since the Cavs are over the cap (unless we wait to do it in th new league year).
Sexton will be a restricted FA in a year, which gives us the ol’ market-suppressing matching rights. This is not Leon Rose’s first rodeo – I do not think he will be forced into (way) overpaying Sexton just because we traded some stuff for him the year before. If it looks like Sexton wants to leave, we can always S&T him also rather than overpaying him.
#21 is a real asset but not terrible in terms of opportunity cost since we still have #19 and #32, AND we don’t have room for 3 rookies anyway. Losing Obi would make me sad, but truthfully, I do not see him and Randle being able to function at all defensively as a front court tandem, which means that in high leverage parts of games, Obi will be sitting. So even though I have hopes for him, it’s very unlikely he will reach his potential on the Knicks, barring a Randle injury.
I do think that regardless of Sexton being probably poor on defense, Thibs has a history of fielding very good defenses despite very bad defenders at the PG position (Rose, John Lucas III, Nate Robinson, etc). And my guess is that Sexton can be coached up a bit on that end…
This is going to be a great thread. Can’t you feel it?
Brian, new Sexton-only poll thread please?!?!?
reference collin sexton, i’d rather we sign lonzo, let julius stay the number one option for at least another year, and hope and pray RJ and quik continue to improve and we pick up a rotation wing in the draft…
I don’t think they have a Kremlin like hold either. I actually think we agree on that?
I think they’ve been pretty up front about what they want but at the same time vague and possibly sending out smoke signals. Saying they’re “high on sexton” or whatever means jack shit to me right now. Its not “leaking” anything.
I agree with this message. Hard pass on Sexton (sex is ok, just not sexton)
Vildoza time.
Wish we could see Vildoza against some real competition. But it’s just team USA.
***I’d prefer Long-Sex, as does my wife, but to each his own…***
You can try to coax Luc Longley out of retirement for that.
I’m generally an optimist about the Knicks, but I’m not an optimist about Obi. Yes he was better at the end of the year, but I saw a player who was somewhat improved on defense and who was now able to score opportunistic baskets. That’s a role player if you squint. I think there’s a chance he’s playing in China in five years. I just don’t see Obi being a horrible price for for someone who can score at a high level in the NBA. And we really need scoring.
True. That long three was nice though.
It’s not about Sexton being worth Obi. But Obi and a first good trade package. Obi & IQ & two firsts is a great trade package. RJ & Obi & multiple picks can probably get you a superstar. Do we really want to waste those bullets on Sexton? I don’t. Someone better will come along.
Also, it really sounds like the Cavs are not going to match an offer for sexton, so the price is only going to go down.
You know, I swear that Luc Longley came to mind when I posted that. I wondered if he maybe had a son who was an NBA prospect as a guard… like Richard Longley, maybe…
Thus my offer of Knox and #21. And maybe a minor salary dump coming back.
🙂
I think that Frank played more minutes for Thibs than Vildoza has played in this game.
Keep the powder dry for Zach LaVine
I just started watching, so I missed it. Don’t know if Vildoza can play PG, but after seeing his range in these exhibitions I’m feeling pretty good that he’ll be a solid SG
Luca just hit the side of the backboard on an open three attempt. That wasn’t good.