Would You Include RJ Barrett in a Trade for Damian Lillard?

***(it’d be amazing times, that’s for sure), but…the timing is not right for us.***

You sound like Tom Hanks in Bachelor Party deliberating whether to sleep with the naked hooker in his bed. But your not getting married to the Knicks, and, even if you were, they certainly aren’t Tawny Kitaen. Take the amazing times. Enjoy them. You only live once.

They should all be fired if they put together a package that includes Barrett and a bunch of 1st round picks, I said it in the previous thread and I believe it. Either the people writing these articles don’t know what they are talking about or they are all trolling Knicks fans.

Looking at Begleys trades, we’d still have more assets than at almost anytime in the last 20 years. We can probably pull off a trade for a disgruntled 3rd star if we needed to.

We could throw 4 1sts & a metric crapton of 2nds.

Trading for Dame based on where we are now isn’t insane. I will say it depends on what you think of Thibs’ defense & his regular season vs postseason success. If you don’t believe Thibs can maintain a top defense, don’t do it.

Donnie Walsh: You sound like Tom Hanks in Bachelor Party deliberating whether to sleep with the naked hooker in his bed. But your not getting married to the Knicks, and, even if you were, they certainly aren’t Tawny Kitaen. Take the amazing times. Enjoy them. You only live once.

LOL! You’re very funny, Donnie. 😉 The problem is that the amazing times will be below the climax (championship), are you signing up for that?

Another 9000 post blog dissecting the permutations and combinations of a potential Knicks trade for an all star that will never happen.

i concur…well then mister bauer, give us something juicy to chew on, or at least ponder…

the floor is yours – whatcha got man?

No chance.

I voted yes with a caveat: I’d trade RJ if his presence significantly lowers the total number of assets we have to give up for Dame. Dame is really good, you guys, and will continue to be so for at least four years, even if he doesn’t follow the CP3 age curve. NBA teams turn over so rapidly these days that fretting about the 10-year pan seems besides the point. If we can add Dame to Randle, Quickley, Mitch, and at least some of our remaining picks, I think that’s a hell of a team with a higher ceiling over the next several seasons than one where Randle and RJ are our two best players. But gutting the team of RJ and a whole lot more is much less enticing.

I’d trade RJ for SGA but Dame? Not unless it was just him and maybe one first.

djphan, how exactly are we acquiring LaVine or Beal? Their teams will demand a lot of assets, too. And if anyone protest that they come with fewer years under contract, the counter is that both are much younger. You’re gutting the team to bring in any of these guys. Dame is just better and more reliable than the other two, even if he’s older.

lavine and/or beal are likely free agents next offseason (that’s not even accounting for a superfriend breakup in brooklyn with durant/harden or potentially steph curry freeing up either_….and if we’re looking at trade routes at the deadline their teams have a lot less leverage since they are either trading them for something or getting nothing if they can’t entice them to stay…

obi and maybe quickley/pick19/21 + one maybe future firsts (kawhi deal as precedent) probably get it done if we want them half a year early.. and that’s probably worth it and it’s also a very cheap price if they’re resigning with us….

in any case.. next summer is intriguing enough to keep options open until then vs selling out for lillard now…

what i want to happen – keep RJ, add point guard and wing talent through free agencies and the draft, julius signs his extension, we figure out a way to keep nerlens

what should happen for the best interest of the team – trade julius if he doesn’t sign the extension, trade RJ for an established “star”, draft 3 players

what is most likely to happen – we draft 2 decent players, julius signs the extension (the 2 and 2 one), and we add a point guard and wing in free agency, re-sign reggie, rose and taj

what actually happens – who the flip knows, except maybe hubie – he’s hot right now in the whole nba prognostication world

and i also don’t have to emphasize how stupendous and great it would be to entice a major player to come here and only sacrifice cap space to do it…. we would have a great core all in their 20s with a bench full of 2nd and 3rd year players with a fistful of picks incoming to plug in any gap or go after another star if one disappoints…

i mean that is the dream…. and it’s attainable if some things break right for us… and we’re really only competing with dallas… and maaaybe the pelicans..maaybe the raptors… in terms of teams with cap room and desirability of destination….

all this is kind of obvious….. but it does make me giddy to think about since we’re very close to it right now… if we don’t screw it up…

Sure, if it was like RJ and a Dallas pick.

@Totes & others,

I woke up in a bad mood today and shouldn’t have started posting. I was overly argumentative and outta line.

I know what you were saying now that I’m actually awake and get it. I could’ve been more civil about it. Starting flamewars is what my Twitter account is for.

I still disagree but should have gone about it better. Stay positive

Well done Jowles!
Mainly for the smart, cool, modelesque babe,
but deleting Facebook and Twitter isn’t bad too…

i concur…well then mister bauer, give us something juicy to chew on, or at least ponder…
the floor is yours – whatcha got man?

I’ll go with this team needs a starting point guard in the worst way (for about the last 20+ years) and a starting caliber small forward. That’s what they should be focusing on in the draft and/or free agency. I like the idea of signing Lowry as all it will cost is Dolan’s money (and really who gives a shit about that?). Then re-sign Rose and the rotation looks like Lowry, Rose, Viladoza (or whatever his name is) at the 1. That’s not too bad and it doesn’t cost any first round picks and/or any young players. Maybe Cameron Payne from Phoenix if he becomes a FA.

The small forward issue is a little more difficult. I’d re-sign Bullock as the back up 3 and draft at least one in the upcoming draft. Not sure who would be available in FA, but it would make sense to look hard at that for an upgrade, again spending Dolan’s cash freely if possible.

Gutting this team now and trading away most or all of the decent youngsters especially RJ, and/or future high picks, seems stupidly Knicksy to me.

If you noticed a kinder, gentler, more handsome THCJ emerge a few years back

We didn’t.

Not very exciting post here, but for the record I voted yes but only because the question was so vague. For example, a pretty nigh impossible trade such as Dred just suggested would be a go (except it would never happen). The other option would be if they had a clear plan to also somehow pick up a really good starting wing that would be a significant upgrade over RJ. And no, no obvious examples here, just saying that mystery scenario would be a go. But much as I love Dame I wouldn’t empty the store just for him, and RJ is a big part of that store. So none of the other trade scenarios being discussed are an option for me (except Dred’s).

Hubert: We didn’t.

Well fuck you too, then.

Just say no to Dame. We’re not good enough to make that kind of trade.

@Hubert Why would Portland give up so much for 1 year of Randle?

For what it’s worth, if we mostly cleared the deck in a trade for Lillard we would still have around $30M in cap space after. A little more if we included Mitch and Quickley in the deal, a little less if held on to either pick this year, but the point is we’d still have rather substantial cap space remaining.

We could probably sign DeRozan and someone else, just to give one example. There are other options obviously e.g. signing a bunch of depth pieces instead of trying to reel in another big free agent.

If we just signed one-year deals to try to carry over the space for 2022, we couldn’t quite get up to the max number for LaVine, but we might be close enough that he’d be willing to take a discount.

The absolute best-case scenario in terms of star potential would be:

Lillard
LaVine
???
Randle
???

The bench would, of course, also consist of question marks that in real life would presumably be 2nd round picks, UDFAs, vet-minimum signings, etc.

We could also assemble something like:

Lillard
Bullock or Burks on a deal paying one of them $9M AAV
DeRozan on a deal paying him $20M AAV
Randle
Mitch

We’d still have around $6.7M in space as well as the room exception (not combinable to my knowledge) in this scenario. Maybe that entices Rose and a backup center?

At the end of the day, I voted no because I don’t think any of these teams could compete with the real contenders during the remainder of Lillard’s prime. It is worth pointing out though that it’s not quite true we’d be whittled down to Dame, Randle, and scrubs.

I didn’t know how to answer. I’d obviously trade RJ and something else for Dame in a reasonable deal. But I generally don’t want to do a deal that would happen in the real world. So i voted no. But RJ isn’t the dealbreaker.

Just did a sous vide ribeye with a stovetop sear and feeling very full and very proud of myself. (although it’s dead simple.)

Yeah, Cam Reddish sucks. The Hawks should just give up on him at 21. lol

Knickerblogger’s back! I was worried there for most of the day that Mike K. had bugged out and left us.

Hubert, are you going to hedge your bet, after all? Or just let the Suns bet ride on its own?

I can imagine Strat hitting refresh 900 times a minute just to get that Reddish comment posted…

Well, i guess Knickerblogger entered the covid protocols for 24h to keep us safe. LOL

Brian Cronin: I really am happy for the Bucks that their big trade ultimately paid off for them.
Also, is Budz not fired then?

If bad results would get him fired, i think the opposite should keep him safe.
In what world would we be if KD didn’t step on the 3P line? Giannis would be a loser, Budz fired, Middleton and Holiday overrated, and we didn’t had the chance to appreciate the Brook Lopez game 5 show. That’s the beauty of sports, it can go several ways depending on talent and… luck.

cybersoze:
Well, i guess Knickerblogger entered the covid protocols for 24h to keep us safe. LOL

Fortunately, the test was a false positive

I wonder..
Was last night more the result of Bud out-coaching McMillan or Trae not being right? I dunno..this series felt like a healthy Trae would have had the Hawks winning in 6 with or without Giannis. One really good thing came out of that series though. Middleton is legit. He answered a lot of critics in these playoffs. Good for him. Bud should buy him a watch or car or something lol. Middleton just saved his job.

Btw..I am rooting for Chris Paul even harder now. Go Suns

Nice to see Mike K come out from behind the curtain, although a new avatar is in order.

cybersoze:
Cam Reddish had 2 good games, i guess that settles it, he’s on his way to be a superstar.

It settles nothing, but it suggests that the haterz (btw the same crowd that hated on Devin Booker) should chill for a while. He played very well in huge games, that’s a nice sign of things to come.

I like Budz as a coach. However, I believe Milwaukee would have let him go if they didn’t reach the Finals because that team is just too regular season good to not make it to at least one Finals appearance with Giannis being otherworldly these past few seasons. I really wanted to see Atlanta there because I am amazed at the job Nate McMillan has done since he’s taken over. Should be a fun Finals though. Still..go Suns. Giannis has plenty of time to win one. Maybe he asks out and we can trade Jules and a shitload of firsts for him LOL. I kid. Unless of course that deal becomes available

Budz is a good coach whose teams for years underperformed expectations in the playoffs, I’m happy that he has (probably) saved his job with this Finals.

I wasn’t 100% convinced by ATL somewhat lucky 8-0 start under McMillan (easy schedule, close wins…), but he cleared my doubts and did a splendid job, trasforming the offense-only Hawks in a well rounded and complete team and developing Trae from a great talent to a superstar, able to cut on his threes and involve his teammates more while still getting his 30-a-game.
McMillan is an underrated coach, I still don’t get his Pacers’ firing…

Someone named Blake Schilb put up 31 pts for Czech. Seems like Canada should have won just based off number of NBA players.

RJ shooting 11/20 on FTs over the course of the tournament is a little concerning or at least a head scratcher.

ess-dog: As someone said earlier, though, it must be tempting for the FO to sell high on Julius. He’s kind of like found money at this point.

Agreed, and it would make a ton of sense to trade Julius if we could get a great package for him. But it would also be a huge PR conundrum considering how popular he is and how exciting the team was this year. It would possibly be a turn-off for FAs in the same way that getting top dollar for Isaiah Thomas still came with a significant PR hit that may have turned off FAs like Anthony Davis, even though Isiah never played at a high level again.

Making the smart but unpopular move is maybe the toughest part of GMing. It would have been smart to amnesty Amare instead of Billups, but Amare was at peak popularity then. While not analogous to Julius’s situation, it is the same kind of dilemma. The good news is that keeping Julius is not necessarily a bad move, just a concerning one…it kind of means either we will have to max him or let him go for nothing, unless he defies the odds and goes for the $100 mill extension. Maxing him locks you in to thinking of him as either a 1A or a 2 player in building a “Big 3.” Certainly feasible, but unsettling based on his playoff performance.

ess-dog: Would Golden State give up the 7 and 14 for him? Or a pick and Wiseman?

If I could get either of these packages for Randle I would do it.

I think we’re undervaluing Julius Randle to be honest.

Yes, he was bad in the playoffs. But he’s a prototypical NBA stretch four who gives you playmaking, and also played some pretty good goddamn defense. Next year will be his age 27 season. It seems completely nuts to me to trade him for the 7 and 14 picks in this year’s draft.

Let’s attach actual names to those picks– you’re trading him for what, Franz Wagner and Corey Kispert? That level of prospect?

Nah.

***Would Golden State give up the 7 and 14 for him? Or a pick and Wiseman?***

I don’t think there’s a trade with Golden State that works out salary wise, short of absorbing Wiggins (or possibly a sign-and-trade for Oubre, should he and the Knicks agree to it). That said, Randle would be a good addition to GS. If Wiseman, #7 and #14, and their 2022/2023 picks are on the table, which they probably should all be, it seems like something could get done, even if it involves a 3rd team.

Congrats Max. And Luka stunned Lithuania (silver in Rio’2016) in Kaunas.

Greece vs Czech Republic gives one more ticket to the Olympics in 2 hours.
Pitino’s squad is Thibsing hard!
Let’s Do It Greekos!

Czech Republic vs Canada was probably the best basketball game I’ve seen this year so far.
CRAZY!
Can’t Wait for GRE-CZE

Luka is so, so, so good.

Also, you really only trade Julius Randle if it means you can get SGA. Tatum and Brown are going nowhere, so having SGA and Barrett to answer that 1-2 punch along with Obi Toppin and Mitch, you could really be cooking with gas. Quick, SGA, Barrett, Toppin, and Robinson would score a lot of points and wouldn’t be a bad team defensively, either. I don’t think there’s any other semi-acquirable asset in the NBA that makes sense for us to trade Julius Randle for.

Getting SGA to NYK while moving Julius would probably look like:

Julius Randle to GSW
Picks 3, 14, and James Wiseman to OKC
Picks 6, 7, and 21 to CLE
SGA to NYK

I’m not sure who gets left holding the Andrew Wiggins bag of beans for the next two years, but that’s basically the transfer of assets that makes the most sense for everyone involved. The Warriors get an All-NBA power forward to add to Steph, Klay, and Draymond, CLE (who already has long term answers at center and point guard) gets picks 6 and 7, in a draft where this kind of move makes sense, for the price of coming off of pick 3, OKC gets last year’s #2 overall pick, this year’s #3 overall pick, and pick 14 for the price of SGA and #6, and of course our Knicks get the best player in the trade and form the greatest Canadian 1-2 punch of all time.

There’s no other trade that makes sense for Julius Randle. If you’re trading Julius Randle, you do it because you’re getting better and younger at the same time.

Whoever we trade Randle for I hope that player averages 24 points, 10 rebounds and 6 assists a game while shooting 41 percent from 3 and 80 percent from the line and playing good defense. That’s the kind of player we need.

Don’t we wish we signed Randle to a 4 year contract now? (I’m not mistaken on that, right?) He’s going into a contract year at just the wrong time.

JK47: It seems completely nuts to me to trade him for the 7 and 14 picks in this year’s draft.

Yeah I take that one back. I just don’t think Randle is a #1 while Weisman may be, so I would look for a package around him plus picks.

Sad for KYN and Bruno for missing the olympics, but happy for Max/Farfa and Slovene Knick for making it. Maybe one of you, or both, can bring back a medal. Silver or Bronze, because we all know which nation gets the gold. 😛

bidiong the not so great: Don’t we wish we signed Randle to a 4 year contract now? (I’m not mistaken on that, right?) He’s going into a contract year at just the wrong time.

Mills did a lot of things wrong – THJ’s contract (and this one is looking good nowadays, but at the time was an overpay), Baker’s contract, KP’s return was not optimal (we won the trade, but maybe we could’ve extracted more), the Fiz hire, and more – but clearly Randle’s contract is not one of them. He nailed that one, because if he was a bust, it was only 2 years and 4M guaranteed on the 3rd year, probably easy to dump him on the 2nd year, if he played great we’d have 3 years and the salary was about right for the max extension to be great for both sides. I don’t think i remember a better structured contract on the Knicks in the last 20 years.
And no, it’s not the wrong time, the 2022 free agent class is gonna be packed with good players, we still have (a lot of) options. And he’s making peanuts for his play, so if we decide to trade him we’ll get a lot back. Definitely the best move Mills made. A clear WIN, don’t take that away from him, because there’s not a lot more he has to show. 😛

swiftandabundant: We should also get someone who loves playing for our franchise.

Maybe i’m sentimental, but this part is very important for me. I love when players feel the Knicks as much as we all do. And that goes for RJ too. Unless the right superstar comes calling, let’s keep them because these times are going to be amazing.

I did misread that. Julius for SGA is more reasonable.

Thinking out loud:

If you replace AD with Randle on last year’s Lakers, do they win the title? I doubt it.
If you install him instead of Siakam on the Raptors in 2019, do they still win? Maybe.
If you replace Green with Randle in the Golden State dynasty, are they winning 3 titles? I’d go with zero.
If LeBron has Julius instead of Kyrie in 2016, are they beating the Warriors? Maybe, but just because LeBron was out of this world great.

So if you go with this as the result of the thought experiment he’s a maybe #2, probably a #3.

cybersoze:
Sad for KYN and Bruno for missing the olympics, but happy for Max/Farfa and Slovene Knick for making it. Maybe one of you, or both, can bring back a medal. Silver or Bronze, because we all know which nation gets the gold. 😛

Thanks Cyber 🙂

Not counting the gold medal (the US Team is vastly superior as always should be) everything else is a total crapshoot.
You can win all the games in the first round then lose the first head to head matchup and go home disappointed despite a 3-1 record, so up to 8 teams have a decent chance at silver or bronze (sorry Iran, Japan and Nigeria).

For the record — I absolutely do not think the Knicks will trade Randle, just that the potential he would bring must be somewhat tempting. This FO is obviously keen on proving to free agents that they treat their guys right, and Randle and the fans deserve this respect at least for the next year.

But those who say Randle isn’t a #1 guy are correct. He’s maybe a #2 in the Bam Adebayo mold. And paying him the max could be disastrous (by disastrous, I mean a 1st or 2nd-round playoff out for 3-4 years before we slide back down into the realm of bottom-feeders.)

So how do you get your legit #1 guy? With Randle already being 26, you have to think via free agency so as to fit his timeline. Top-5 picks are also a way to go, but that seems like a real longshot this year.

As such, I think the Knicks will consolidate their picks (2 instead of 3) to get the best role players available while also picking through undrafted players to find diamonds in the rough. I think this is the way to go — waiting a year for a better free-agent market, allowing Quick, Obi, and RJ to get a year better, and then wooing the hell out of some stars. They could also trade their picks for another seasoned starter (ideally a Brogdon type), but I don’t think that is as likely to happen.

Well whoever we trade Randle for it would be nice if they were second team all-NBA.

Am I the only one who is optimistic about Randle’s being a legit #2 option? I think he had to shoulder a little bit too much of the offensive load this year (which he handled admirably, since he was an outlier-good tough shot-maker). I don’t think that kind of offensive production will hold up, but I think if we have a legit #1 option on this team that we run the offense through Randle is going to be in a much better position to get the easy buckets that were typical for him in New Orleans and LA. Taking a 25/10/6 guy and letting him shoot less contested twos and more shots at the rim will make up for whatever small to medium size losses you get from his reduced assists due to handling the ball less (and I’m sure he’ll still get plenty on rolls, pops, and in transition). I really think if there’s any return to form re: at the rim attempts while keeping his 3pt% for Randle that his TS could spike into the 60s, and a guy who is doing that is definitely a legit #2 on a good team.

I’m in the don’t trade Randle camp mostly because I really really enjoyed this year and he is the biggest reason why. At the same time I don’t think anyone should be untouchable given the team’s talent base. But what I don’t fully understand is why his value as a trade asset is so great now given his contract situation. Admittedly it is at an all-time high given the leap he made, but a team giving up assets for him would have to be comfortable that he would resign with them (in all likelihood for the max) after this year as he most certainly will decline an immediate extension. He is on record as saying he wants to retire as a Knick. Perhaps if he is traded he may rethink that sentiment but maybe not.

Randle is going nowhere.

I voted No in the poll, but after thinking about it some more, would change that to Yes. Of course, actually doing a trade would depend on all the moving parts. Man, it would be nice to see Lillard on the Knicks, but always beware trading for a guy in his 30s unless you really believe he is the final big piece.

Yeah, I can’t see the Knicks trading Randle for picks, unless they really covet someone in the top 3 and can parlay three or four first rounders to move that far up. But that seems like a “take one big step back to (hopefully) later take two big steps forward” type strategy that probably wouldn’t interest Rose, following a winning #4 seed season.

Mike Kurylo: After getting the site back online and the results of this poll, I was seriously considering it.

I forgot to tell you that i’m a software developer, so when you need some help, please let me know. If i can, i’ll definitely help. You have my email on the database, so it’s easy to contact me.
And thank you very much for all the good work in building this amazing community. 🙂

Jesus Christ, I’m so sick of hardliners here. You are all the same people who were dying to attach a sweetener to Randle to get him the hell out of here last year!

Maybe leave open the *possibility* that Randle will regress (like he did in the playoffs) when it’s not a condensed, shortened year? Or the *possibility* that a top-10 pick this year could become a star? These are not crazy ideas. Consider these wise words of Paulie Walnuts’: “Nobody knows what the future holds, my friend.”

Edit: yes, thank you, RJ stan account. Those are important considerations.

Maybe leave open the *possibility* that Randle will regress (like he did in the playoffs) when it’s not a condensed, shortened year? Or the *possibility* that a top-10 pick this year could become a star? These are not crazy ideas. Consider these wise words of Paulie Walnuts’: “Nobody knows what the future holds, my friend.”

Is anyone besides swift taking a hard line on this….? The gist of my post was “obviously you consider trading Randle but keep in mind it won’t be easy to get a similarly good player.”

Yes, Randle could regress. Yes, a top-10 pick could be better than him. These are all matters of probability though and there are good reasons to think Randle could stay within a reasonable range of his 2020-2021 production, and even better reasons to think a top-10 pick won’t ever be within that range.

Plus, even though Randle had a stinker of an ending to his season, I’m reasonably confident that it’s lit a fire underneath him and that he’s already working like a maniac to improve his game so it doesn’t happen again.

Doug Chu:
Plus, even though Randle had a stinker of an ending to his season, I’m reasonably confident that it’s lit a fire underneath him and that he’s already working like a maniac to improve his game so it doesn’t happen again.

I really don’t want Randle to “expand” his game, though, or at least that shouldn’t be the priority. Randle’s off-ball game, provided we land a point guard who can point guard, is really where I want to see Randle expand his game. Because he’s a threat to beat you off the dribble, I want to see him use his current skill level to boost his efficient shot diet. Dunk on people. Shoot open 20 footers off the catch the way KG used to when he was playing.

I think the Knicks would be so much better on offense if two things happened:

Julius Randle was used more as a finisher (catch and shoot AND as a roll man).
They made the damn hit-ahead pass to RJ Barrett when he’s consistently beating everybody down the floor.

Let’s just get more easy baskets. If that means trading for Jalen Brunson and signing Lonzo Ball to a semi reasonable contract, I’m okay with that. We don’t need a star player as much as we need an improved offensive approach. It may be easier to get significant upgrades than to sell out for star upgrades.

I think it’s fairly likely Randle 3p% is going to regress a bit. He made too big a leap to assume it’s all sustainable. Statistically he may also regress in term of assists. If we manage to add a solid PG that can score a bit, Randle will handle the ball less often. So he’s likely to get fewer assists. That won’t mean a much in terms of his overall value, but it will be a change the numbers. You have to assume if he’s handling the ball less his TOs will also decline and you also hope that he’ll be forced to take fewer really tough shots. So his efficiency (other than 3s) can rise a bit.

Last point on Randle.

If we get a legitimate #1 option, Randle will have a lot easier time creating easy shots for himself because they won’t be be able to double team him as often when he’s the 2nd option. They’ll be too worried about stopping our #1 option. If we can’t land a #1 option this off season (which could be likely), even if we come away with a solid PG that can score a bit Randle will get some easier shots because of the better spacing and better player and ball movement. The thing that killed us in the playoffs is that our #1 option is really a #2 option and our #2 option (RJ) was still barely #3 option (though he’s improving rapidly). Once we add the #1 scorer and PG we need and RJ develops further, some of these problems we had with Randle will disappear.

@ess-dog: I agree with you that Randle is a risk at next year’s max, but except a surefire all-nba player i guess all max contracts are, right? There’s plenty of time to know (a little) better what to do. We’ll have the trade deadline, then in the offseason we can do a sign and trade, but first we can offer less than the max because we can offer 5 years and the others don’t. So let’s say the Knicks offer 5/160M, the others can only offer 4/150M. What will he make in 2026-27? 20M? He’ll be losing only 10M and if he has some bad luck that money is guaranteed, whereas if he leaves who knows if he’ll stay healthy and/or at a very good level by then.
We have to keep building the team, with a good PG as the most important goal for the offseason. Then let’s see what Julius and RJ can do with a good PG around them during the season.

This, or what swift said. 😀

[edit] by “this” i mean my post above.

Hubert: That’s the thing, though, swifty. You would not have cap space ever again. Lonzo Ball would be your move. Then when you pay Randle & RJ,that’s your team. You’re all in on Randle, RJ, Ball.

If, and this is a big if, you’re signing guys to good contracts there’s no way you’re locked into that team. You can always find 3rd teams willing to pick up the Andre Iguodalas and Caris LeVerts of the world in trades.

I really don’t understand the reasons we’re having so much discussion about trading Randle. It’s like “maybe the salary sky will fall in” if we sign him to a large contract. Good teams often have overpaid players; it’s just the way the NBA pay system works. Some players get better after they get a big contract and some get worse. It’s not totally predictable. So many end up overpaid. We are spoiled by having a good team last season that was actually below the salary floor. That is really unusual. Would you really rather have a team where all the players were on bargain contracts, but it wasn’t good and was basically hoping it’s draft picks would develop or would you rather have a team that’s fun to watch, isn’t terrible, but some players are a little overpaid? You do this by getting players who are good and keeping them for a while.

Hubert:
Sure but he’s talking about Ball, Randle, and Barrett on max contracts. You’re locked into those guys the minute the ink dries on the contracts.

Fair enough. I think RJ Barrett will be worth his max extension if he signs one, but I’m the RJ Barrett Stan Account so that’s obvious.

——

Knick fan not in NJ: I really don’t understand the reasons we’re having so much discussion about trading Randle.

Because it’s the off-season, bro. Why else?

But in all honesty, for me it’s all about the fear of locking in a $25M AAV guy in at $35M+ AAV a summer before Nikola Jokic can become a free agent that makes me nervous. I know that’s the pipe dream that nobody believes will happen, but star trades happen every year, B. I don’t want to give Julius Randle the 2022 version of the DeMar DeRozan contract so long as we can avoid it, and furthermore I have questions about whether or not Julius Randle can actually defer to another player. He’s a ball dominant player who slows the game down by taking the ball up court and relies a lot on his handle. I’m going to look the numbers up after this comment to see if my suspicions are confirmed, but I feel like everything I know about Julius Randle has to do with his being a speed/power mismatch for most front court players and his ability to leverage that off the dribble. It’s kinda why he’s mostly been a successful 6th man in his career aside from this season. There are real questions about Julius Randle that people seem to be sweeping under the rug.

I think I fall rather slightly on the “keep Randle, nail your draft picks, and make great use of your cap space prior to signing Randle’s max” side of things when it comes to our most likely path to contention.

Cosign.
My biggest reasons are that by the trade deadline next season, we’ll have a good idea of A. How the new starting PG will transform the offense and Randle’s use in it, B. Randle approximating his 2020-21 numbers or i dunno… improving, and C. The improvements of RJ, IQ and Obi.

Add two functional rookies to that mix, and simmer.

Yeah I’m not totally sold on signing Ball either but I can see the justification behind it bc of his age and potential to still get better. You sign Ball and you’re basically adding him to the youth core to grow together. Which is very appealing.

But I would also totally be into say a big two year to Lowry or Conley for example, bring back Rose and then you develop Villadoza and a draft pick future PG at some point. Doing that gives you a shot to go after another big name in a few years instead of totally locking into a RJ, Randle, Ball plus whoever core.

I mean this could be quite nice

Lowry or Conley/Rose/Villadoza
RJ/IQ/draft pick
Bullock/draft pick/2nd round pick
Randle/OBI/Knox
Mitch/Pelle/Taj

Trying to be realistic with who all we can bring back and not include Noel but if it’s possible, awesome, or find another cheap big to replace him for Mitch insurance.

Lowry and Rose, for example, would provide great PG production with Villadoza also getting some minutes to keep those guys fresh.

i would guess if we add lowry or conley that would pretty much mean rose wouldn’t be back…

it’s weird to think that this is the first year in forever where the expectation during the off-season is that we’ll actually address the starting point guard (and maybe also future point guard) position for the upcoming season…crazy times in knick fan land…

Ok..a really weird thought just hit me. Given the fact that we can run our offense through Julius and RJ, I actually wouldn’t mind Sexton as a fallback option at the 1. Especially if he can continue to shoot like he has on a little less volume. But he’d be the backup plan to the backup plan because I believe the team wants Quickley to earn that role in year 2.

Raise your hand if you want to pay Julius Randle $25-$35 million per year to be a second option.

There’s far more reason to write off the Covid year than there is to write off the Fizdale year.

Don’t you pretty much have to pay your second option the max? That seems to be what every other team has to do that’s contending.

E, all merc’d out:
Raise your hand if you want to pay Julius Randle $25-$35 million per year to be a second option.

I want to pay him minimum wage with no bonuses, but in the real world you have to pay players their market value. Sometimes you even have to pay a small premium to attract or keep a player or you will never build a championship team. If you don’t, every time you have a good player that wants an extension you’ll have to trade him. We’ll be rebuilding until you guys are on social security also. lol

pay dat man his money: julius…

Raise your hand if you want to pay Julius Randle $25-$35 million per year to be a second option.

I mean, yeah, this is pretty much the going rate for bona fide second options in the NBA.

It’s definitely a problem to give it to them if you don’t have your first option already in tow. That’s why we should spend every second between now and the signing of Randle’s next contract, whether it’s with us or someone else, trying to get a first option.

If we can sign LaVine, Beal, or one of the more pie-in-the-sky possibilities, I say sign Randle to the best deal you can and see what you can do. If we make good draft picks AND spend the rest of our cap space wisely, you have to feel good about a LaVine/Randle/Barrett/IQ/Mitch/Toppin/Vildoza/draft picks/other free agents core. It’s not gonna be the prohibitive favorite or anything, but in a league without a Warriors-esque juggernaut its chances justify going for it.

The question is what to do if we can’t bring in someone like that by the time we have to make a decision about Randle. In that case, the best option would probably be to sign-and-trade him. The return would be less than it would be right now in all likelihood, but that’s a risk we should be willing to take.

Other than bold/ital the internet is kind of bad for this, and I’m not a fan of the bracketing asterisks, but the stress in my question isn’t on “second option,” it’s far more on “Julius Randle.”

Through some combination of his wishes, team needs, his playing style, and possibly other factors, Julius’s previous experience as a second option hasn’t gone well. He didn’t last as a second option in LA, he didn’t last as a second option in NO, nothing about his game heretofore in NYC has given any indication that he wants to be a second option or that the team would function well with him in that role. That’s the problem. Stress on “that’s.”

Julius just has a very niche game. Extremely niche. That’s been the issue from the get-go, that’s why he was available so cheaply a couple summers back. It’s very hard to win with niche guys playing first fiddle. JK’s trying hard, but Randle really hasn’t “developed into a stretch 4.” He doesn’t stretch the floor that much and he doesn’t react well to any kind of shading by off-ball defenders toward spots where he likes to go. If you need “stretchy,” there are far better options and if you need ball handling and drive-and-kick, there are far better options. You need the things he brings to the table, to be sure, but you don’t need him to bring them to the table.

JK’s trying hard, but Randle really hasn’t “developed into a stretch 4.”

Well he did hit 41% of the 389 3PA he took

Happy and bemused that this offseason seems to have more unanswerable questions than any other offseason in memory. Previously the argument centered around, “Will we suck next year, or suck BAD?” This year, we have:

Are we a good team now or a mediocre team?
What the hell happened with Randle?
Will RJ and Quick make significant advances?
What did we just see with Obi there at the end?
What’s up with Mitch?
We had a bunch of superbly overachieving role players — what do we do with them?
Will Vildoza be any good, or is he just a third-stringer?
And of course, is Thibs a Good Witch or a Bad Witch?

I’m sure there are others, but that’s enough to make anyone’s head explode, and make any particular hypothesis about what the team should do tough to argue for or against.

I don’t see how being a great 3pt shooter doesn’t mean you’re a floor stretcher, but I think Randle has value as a secondary passer, rebounder, and good 3pt shooter. Should he be running the break? Ideally, no. But he does a lot of things well.

Tnfh makes a good point about signing a 1st option before Randle’s contract is up, but in today’s league, forced trades are a major player mover (at least until they try to shut that shit down). It’s not unlikely that a star will target NYC via trade in the near future, which is why we need to keep collecting assets through the draft and signings.

i guess making up fake controversies about julius randle yelling at scott perry didn’t work and now we’re calling him niche now…

this is like the frank ntilikina of trolling….

this is like the frank ntilikina of trolling….

yeah, kind of weak bait, E’s certainly no bob neptune…which may be a good thing…

Giannis Antetokounmpo Upgraded To Questionable For Game 1

Of course, only the Bucks medical team has the data for this, but i wouldn’t force it. I think in the long run it’s better that he sits the two Phoenix games, to then come back really healthy, instead of forcing it, having maybe less than optimal performance or even causing him to aggravate the injury.

I have the Suns in 6. What do you guys have?

I have the Suns in 6. What do you guys have?

suns probably take it easy… it’s either 5 or 6… cp3 eats up drop coverages and so this is a much tougher defensive matchup for the bucks than trae… or just about anyone they’ve faced…. if giannis is fully healthy this could go 7 but it’s tough for them overall to keep up unless middleton and holiday catches fire…

All that matters is what Hubert thinks.

I will root for Giannis I think if he is healthy and Chris Paul if not.

I’m rooting for Hubert

hubie, if you need to skip town for any reason – i got a couch you can crash on…

Perhaps they still plan on retaining Schroeder, though. I think that makes a lot more sense, as a Walker/Schroeder back court would be strong.

Just read that Greek Freak is playing
bucks will crash the suns
Sorry Hubie

Narrative question only — if the Suns win the title, does Chris Paul become the greatest point guard ever?

(If Magic is a point forward…)

hopefully it “only” costs us cash…

i don’t know who will win, or how many games the series will go – but, i am rooting for the bucks…

Agree. He really did enlist the Olympian gods.

JVG said it and I have to agree. I can’t believe how well Lopez has played defense in these playoffs. He was TERRIBLE when he was in BK.

What happened with Walker?

The Lakers are apparently close to a deal for Walker for Kuzma and their first round pick this year.

I have the Suns in 6. What do you guys have?

I didn’t put any money on the Bucks but I hedged my bets a bit by putting sizable wagers on Giannis to win MVP at 300 and Middleton at 600. So root for Brooks Lopez to dominate the NBA Finals if you hate me.

Giannis to win MVP at 300 and Middleton at 600.

When did this site ban the plus sign?

I blame bobneptune

The plus sign is like the alligator loki of everyone who ever got pruned by the KBA. (Bob Neptune = Classic Loki, Ted Nelson = Boastful Loki, Reub = Kid Loki.)

I guess Chris Paul is still good at basketball

Yeah, I have the Suns in 6. CP3 on a mission and he’s got that scoring side-kick, Booker.

Jowles: The Bachlorette is DEEPLY hilarious while high.

Bucks shooting the 3 well and losing is a bad sign for them

Nothing positive is ever allowed on this site

ephus:
I would spend the $$$ for Chris Paul.3 years/$100m. If that would get the job done, do it.

Earlier today I was thinking 3/75 to pair him with Julius for the epic pick and roll combo, but I could be convinced for the $100 if we could even do that.

payne, johson, bridges, ayton, booker, monty – lots of reasons for cp3 to stay put, similar for conley…lowry, different story…

***I would spend the $$$ for Chris Paul. 3 years/$100m. If that would get the job done, do it.***

Based on what? A mere 42,000 minute sample? Why the rush to judgement?

Injuries aside this have been the funniest playoffs in a long time.

No clear cut favorites, no sense of inevitability, lot of surprises, big comebacks, a handful of young stars raising their stock, masterful performances…

Very, very entertaining.

The only way CP3-to-NY makes any sense is if winning the ring makes him feel like the only way to enhance his already great legacy is to bring winning back to this historical joke of a franchise. But I seriously doubt it.

According to former Nets executive and ESPN cap guru Bobby Marks, the Suns can offer Paul a four-year deal while the Knicks can’t go past three years because of an obscure “over-38’’ bylaw in the collective bargaining agreement.

Thank God for this rule. It’d be very Knicksy to give a 4 year contract (33M AAV) to a 36yo player.

Alan:
The only way CP3-to-NY makes any sense is if winning the ring makes him feel like the only way to enhance his already great legacy is to bring winning back to this historical joke of a franchise. But I seriously doubt it.

Yeah, it seems like this is more of the typical Knicks fan pipe dream than anything crossing CP3’s mind. He finally has a home where he can bask in the twilight of his immortal career. Why would he mess with that?

The Suns are a high-IQ, high-energy team. CP3 is finally on a team without primadonnas, dopes, and softees. What was most impressive about the Suns last night was their defense….the way they used their heads to force tough shots, get deflections and strips, etc. Monty is doing a nice job of putting each player in a position to be successful. They are very cohesive on both ends and when Paul and Booker are doing their think they are extremely good on offense, very tough to stop.

I’m not sure whether they will get back to the finals any time soon, but I wouldn’t ount them out either.

I swear..
If I see another journalist say on TV or suggest in an article that the Knicks trade for that 7’3″ dude..I AM GOING TO TOTALLY LOSE MY SHIT!

Why the FUCK would we want THAT guy back in his current state. Theoretically, a healthy “7’3″ dude” would be awesome for this team as currently constructed. But he gets paid too much to have bad wheels at his size. He’ll be lucky to have 4 more years in the league at his current trajectory.

Wasserman’s latest mock has us taking Cooper at 19, Duarte at 21, Quentin Grimes at 32, and McKinley Wright IV at 58. I’d be very happy with that draft, even if I’d ideally like the Knicks to take a big man in there somewhere.

Considering what assets we have..I’d be happy coming away with Trey Murphy, Duarte, Bassey, and Christopher. I’d be elated if we came away with Bouknight and Bassey. A combination of Kispert and Duarte wouldn’t give us much shot creation..but our shooting would be worlds better. So many options for us and I am not used to it lol

I like the Wasserman draft for the Knicks, but think 4 guards is a little excessive. If Queeta or another solid big are available at 58, take them.

I suspect the Knicks-should-trade-for-the-7’3-dude articles are all clickbait. Didn’t catch me as i didn’t click in any of it.

Dame is not leaving his career in the hands of an owner and a GM again. He’s learned this the hard way, – so he’s not coming here to swap Neil for Leon. Only way he and other top 15-20 players move in this era is if they’re collaborating, designing their own teams and in charge of their own destiny. We would have to get slightly better next year to remain relevant and continue to be a possible option. What are the odds that at the trading deadline and at the end of the season, – Knicks are better than four seed?

It might actually turn out to be the optimal time to bring in a Dame and whomever he wants convince to bust out of their situation; depending on the 2nd player, as long as we can keep either RJ or Randle to create a “big three”, I’m cool with it.

I actually kind of like Quentin Grimes, he has a good defensive reputation and he was a key player on a very good defensive team. It’s not too hard to envision him developing into a Reggie BullOCK type of player. Steal numbers are good. Shot 40+ from 3pt. I wouldn’t be mad at all drafting him at 32.

The internet is a herd-creating and herd-following device nonpareil — it’s created its own herd-enforcement lingo and everything! — and I would expect form to prevail here.

With that obvious fact out of the way, I remain not entirely opposed to making a move for the 7-3 dude. (*) The key variable for me is how healthy he is and how much of a health risk he poses.

It cannot be seriously disputed that:

1. He’s more of a true “second option” than Julius Randle.
2. He had a far better 2020 playoffs than Julius Randle had a 2021 playoffs.
3. He makes less money than Julius Randle is likely to make.
4. He’s a significantly better defender than Julius Randle.

With all that said, I’d need to have full transparency on his medicals and on what happened in Dallas this year to make a final decision. It could be that his health and body are on a trajectory we’d want nothing to do with. With that caveat, he remains an intriguing player. Him and Mitchell Robinson in the same rotation remains an intriguing thought. He absolutely could be an undervalued asset, and I dig undervalued assets.

(*) I make no observation here as to whether Dolan would sign off on it, whether there’s any interest in Rose/Aller/WWW, etc.

Early Bird:
I like the Wasserman draft for the Knicks, but think 4 guards is a little excessive. If Queeta or another solid big are available at 58, take them.

Queta or Jericho Sims.

1. He’s more of a true “second option” than Julius Randle.

Care to show some work on this one? I’m not seeing it. This was his best year on offense and both his scoring volume and efficiency were below Randle’s career bests. His TS% was a tick higher than Randle’s this year, but 71% of his 2PA and 97% of his 3PA were assisted compared to 39% and 79% respectively for Randle.

That seems like the opposite of being a “second option,” actually. It seems like being heavily reliant on other options to score.

2. He had a far better 2020 playoffs than Julius Randle had a 2021 playoffs.

It was 3 games.

3. He makes less money than Julius Randle is likely to make.

But he makes almost as much as Randle’s 2022 max (which we don’t know he’ll get), and is way worse at basketball. Seems like that should be a relevant consideration.

4. He’s a significantly better defender than Julius Randle.

This year the Mavs had a 118 defensive rating with him on the court. 111 with him off.

lol you guys still respond to E?

thenoblefacehumper: On second thought, why the hell do I bother?

If you wind up litigating, it would be a good thing for you to get comfortable with uncertainties, 80/20 and 85/15 cases, knowing the contra side to your case as well or better than the lawyer(s) on the other side, and your counterpart/competitor/interlocutor having a different perspective on things you think you see entirely clearly and with certainty. If 7-3 dude hired you to write a brief on his behalf, could you do it? I’m pretty sure you could. It’s really not that hard.

KP is always, ALWAYS, either:

1. Injured
2. Coming back from an injury

Those are the two states in which he exists. I don’t doubt that he might put together one really good season where he’s actually healthy and we’ll hear lots of “I told you so” kind of takes from the KP stans. But so far in his career he has not been real durable. There always seems to be some excuse as to why he’s not playing well, except for those 8-10 games every year where he looks great and gets everybody all excited.

I just don’t believe KP will ever string together a bunch of healthy, productive seasons.

We don’t. We know he’s had two surgeries and what they were for. We know nothing of the rehab/PT regimen he was on, any imbalances that might lead to repetitive injury and whether they can be fixed, etc.

His health could be a deal-breaker, for sure. I’d want to know more, though, before coming to that conclusion. Typically players recover pretty much fully from both meniscus repairs and plain vanilla torn ACL surgeries. That’s my starting point baseline.

If they’re giving the guy away, I’m kicking the tires. There’s zero reason not to — beyond petty grudges and the like, obviously.

Dink: Luckily I’m a NJ resident so I’m using draftkings, don’t have to deal with any Vito Spatafore types.

OTOH, I imagine Vito does not issue a W-2G for the winnings. though Hubert will probably treat them as carried interest

E, even before KP got “hurt” though he missed a ton of games as a Knick. He missed more than 20 his rookie year and a bunch of sophomore year too. This was BEFORE his FIRST major kneed injury.

There is pretty good evidence out there that once someone hits 7’2″ or taller, they’re chance of foot and knee problems increases dramatically. Remember, he’s had these injuries all under the age of 25. Its only going to get worse unless he severely limits himself athletically, which kind of reduces him to just an average player.

He’s not elite on defense at all anymore. He’s not even particularly good. Randle is way better on both sides of the ball. You called him a niche player but KP is the niche.

Also, are you seriously quoting on playoff series from last year where KP ended up getting hurt as well? LOL with this shit.

E: “It cannot be seriously disputed that”

Also E: “get comfortable with uncertainties, 80/20 and 85/15 cases”

One can probably make a case for KP over Randle, but you haven’t made it.

I mean, for all we know there could be a huge breakthrough in sports science medicine in the next year or so that will allow KP to have bionic knees. If that happens, then anything is possible.

Z-man: E is one of those people who doesn’t really have an opinion, he just likes to argue against whatever the prevaling tide washes in. He ignores scholarship, dismisses evidence, makes up his own definitions for terms that are already clearly defined, and fabricates and equivocates whenever he feels like it. I guess he thinks that makes him clever.

our very own Samuel E-lito

That was a very gritty Mets win. A HR to tie by a scrub vs the best closer in baseball who hadn’t blown a save or given up a HR all year, then a great rally to pick up Diaz after he got wild and couldn’t put the Brewers away with 2 outs. Jnd they just fucked Chapman up a couple of games ago.

We absolutely need a PG. My issue with drafting PGs, especially later on, is its so difficult to hit that there’s a significant chance we burn 2 roster spots with unplayable players. If we use 1 pick on a C, we usually have someone that’s minimally competent.

Maybe at 58 it won’t matter because we can offer non-guaranteed years or use a 2-way spot, but I think rostering duds affects our ability to compete because we’re forced to sign more expensive players. Because Cs are easy to project we can avoid having to pay big money to Noel or other Cs and save up for a max guy.

I also think the FA PG crop is pretty solid, if unspectacular. I think we’ll end up with someone who takes the pressure off us drafting a PG.

I’d bet the Knicks sign at least one of:

Rose
McConnell
Payne
Dinwiddie
Schroeder (once he realizes he’s not going to get paid what he wants)
Lowry
Conley
Ball

Idk, maybe I’m overly concerned because we’ve had such inconsistent production from past draft picks. But to appeal to 2022 FA, I see PGs as a difficult sell in the draft when they take more time to develop.

djphan: i don’t think we’re drafting a pg to have them start day 1….

I’m with you on this one, DJ. Point guards don’t usually start in their rookie seasons unless they’re Isiah (boo) or Magic. Stockton started 5 games his rookie season, Nash started 2. Knicks need someone (besides Rose) to pick up the minutes and run the point professionally while whatever kid(s) learn the ropes. It’d be nice if it was Vildoza, but who knows…

2021 – 2022 starting point guard wish list – in order of preference:
– graham
– mcconnell
– lowry
– someone else i’m not thinking of
– ball
– brunson
– payne
– conley
– dinwiddie

big no thanks for schroeder or walker…cp3 ain’t moving, lillard ain’t moving, rookie won’t start, rose may be our backup, who knows if vildoza can play in the nba…i don’t know enough about any other hidden gems to guess at…

thankfully, it won’t be elf – who’s mom would argue mightily that the benching of her son is what truly lost the series against the hawks…

The Knicks aren’t winning a title next year, so if they take 2 PGs it’s fine, we can sign an FA big to back up Mitch. Odds are both those PGs aren’t going to be good, and we currently have 0 good PGs on the roster anyhow.

I’m not scrolling up enough to find out why people are arguing about Porzingis, but he was pretty good last year for the Mavs. But he’s massively overpaid and can’t stay healthy. Getting rid of him is better every day.

BTW, am i the only who can’t get the edit function to work anymore? I can open the edit page but can’t submit edits.

First, good morning Owen. And then i’ll try to edit the comment.

[edit] yeah, it seems to work for me (i’m using Firefox for Windows)

About RJ it’s what Alan said. 🙂
But i’m guessing he’ll be progressing and so by the beginning of the 4th year it’ll be a no brainer to give him the max. He’s no KP, people forget KP didn’t elevate his game, he started strong (for a rookie) and then he kept the same level of play so by the 4th year it’d be a mistake to give him the max. Not at all the trajectory RJ is on.
And for a reminder, rookie max extensions are not max money because rookies are limited to 25% of the cap. That’s why OKC was so dumb, Russ, KD and Harden at the max would be 75% of the cap.

Not to mention all the shoe money he stands to make from that PUMA deal. PUMA is so desperate for a signature athlete after Kyle Kuzma flopped that they gave J. Cole a sneaker.

Barret getting $175 million? We might as well trade him right now for draft picks because who wants to overpay him hoping he continues developing? lol Maybe we can package him with Randle and turn into the OKC Thunder of the east and rebuild with an eye towards 2030. I’m sure Thibs and Rose will be on board with that. lmao

Do people understand the problem with the combination drafting kids and penny pinching yet?

I’m expecting RJ to move forward next year, but I also legitimately think he’s 4-5 years away from his peak. I have almost no idea what that peak will be even if I like him a lot. Neither does anyone else. But you HAVE TO pay him. You can’t trade him for picks, hope to get lucky, rinse and repeat. Whether it’s RJ, Randle, Mitch or whoever, there comes a time where you have to stop thinking 5-6 years out. You tank for a year and then start trying to get better. Otherwise you’ll keep running into the same decisions, keep taking a step backwards to avoid a possibly too rich contract, and never get anywhere. Sometimes you have to pay market value or even a small premium. As long as you don’t totally cripple your flexibility with a horrible contract or have a bunch of really old guys on the decline you can keep moving forward as some contracts expire, you continue making draft selections, young players develop etc..

What are the odds we can move up slightly from 19 and take Moody and stay pat with 21 and take Tre Mann? That’d be a good haul, no?

swiftandabundant:
I don’t want KP but it would be HILARIOUS to trade for him and get assets attached for Dallas to get rid of him. The gift that keeps on giving.

Then Doncic leaves bc Dallas has no picks and can’t build around him and comes to NYC after KP’s contract is done.

That would be pretty funny, but does Dallas even have enough assets to unload him? Because of the uncertain status of the 2023 pick, owed to the Knicks but with top-10 protection, I’ve read that they can’t trade a first round pick before 2025. I guess Brunson is interesting, but…

Looking at the per year salary of a player without cap context is pretty meaningless. A 20 million/year contract ain’t what it used to be.

The projected cap in 2023-2024 is supposed to be $119 million. I could not find what it’s projected to be in 2024-2025, which is when he would sign his max. But it looks like its going up 3 to 5 million a year. If RJ is making 35 million per year, that is 29 percent of the cap space.

The luxury cap penalty in 203-204 is projected to be $144 million. It looks like the cap is going up 4 or 5 million every year.

Since when are we giving extensions to our rookies?

I LOVE RJ BARRETT AND HATE ALL OF THIS TALK OF NOT EXTENDING HIM. I WANT HIM TO BE OURS FOREVER. NO I WILL NOT STOP YELLING.!!!

RJ’s probably going to be in the Markkanen/Collins Ambiguity Zone when the window’s open 12-15 months from now.

awwww, very cool swift 🙂

you got a way with bringing a smile to my day…

Yeah if RJ takes another leap like he did this last year, he is well on his way to being worth a max extension. Although the next leap will be harder. I feel like the jump he made this year was the “low hanging fruit” if you will, especially improving the free throws. Although not everyone can just improve their 3 point shooting like he did in one year so early, so that’s super promising.

You max him immediately, and hope he takes the All-NBA leap shortly thereafter. He’ll still be young enough to be moved for assets or another max player if he doesn’t work out. The fact that Collin Sexton is being floated as a possible max players should tell you everything you need to know about high-volume offense initiators in this league. Like JK47, I have come around on him.

If we’re maxing RJ and Randle that’s, what, 60% of the salary cap? We better have figured out a way to bring in two legitimate max players before we pay them like that. If they’re our two best players making that kind of coin, we’re going nowhere.

The Knicks will likely be maxed out, so extending RJ the max isn’t as significant for cap issues & will mostly affects the luxury tax

Anyone worried about maxing RJ seems to be missing this. We don’t have to do it until 2023, and unless things change drastically we’ll be operating over the cap by then.

It’s a no-brainer.

I don’t think it’s ever a no-brainer to pay someone considerably more than their worth.

If we’re over the cap bc we traded for Lillard, signed Bradley Beal as a free agent, and extended Randle and Mitch, then fine. But if we’re over the cap because Randle and Lonzo Ball are making $80mm, I think it matters.

This isn’t about “is RJ good” or “do I want to keep RJ”. The answer to both is yes.

This is about “why do I have to max someone just because I want to keep them?”

Hubert:
I don’t think it’s ever a no-brainer to pay someone considerably more than their worth.

If we’re over the cap bc we traded for Lillard, signed Bradley Beal as a free agent, and extended Randle and Mitch, then fine.But if we’re over the cap because Randle and Lonzo Ball are making $80mm, I think it matters.

This isn’t about “is RJ good” or “do I want to keep RJ”. The answer to both is yes.

This is about “why do I have to max someone just because I want to keep them?”

The point should be that it would be dumb to have Lonzo and Randle making $80 mill aav in the first place. But even then, if you let RJ walk, you are boxing yourself in to Lonzo, Randle and role players. You would absolutely have to max him.

How many teams have won a title with two fake max players?

well i think we’re looking at two teams in finals with one…. booker and middleton…

phoenix has survived it by nabbing cp3… and leaps from almost all of their young players … also thanks to cp3… they had some good timing with this run both from solid play from all of their guys and also injuries to their opponents … they will have some tough decisions to make beginning with cp3 and how much to commit to ayton and bridges and the cams… so that booker deal will weigh on them if he continues on this erratic career path… but for now they’ve had good fortune…

the bucks have survived by simply having giannis.. the lopez deal does seem like a decent sized winner in hindsight but simply having competent running mates… and also some injury luck… has been enough….

and if anyone is concerned about what RJ will become… just take solace in the fact that it’s incredibly rare… if it’s even happened… for a young player to improve as drastically as RJ has… and then never improve at all for the rest of their career… if anyone can think of one i’m all ears….

if a player can fight their way from the bottom of the nba… and then identify what’s wrong to immediately improve themselves to get to league average that quickly… they also have the ability to evolve themselves to eventually get to the upper echelons of the nba… sometimes it’s quick (ingram.. brown… siakam)… most of the time it takes awhile (lowry… kemba walker… nash… derozan),…. but usually there’s another leap coming…

and i say ‘usually’ only because nothing is guaranteed… but i am pretty sure it’s actually never happened…. sometimes a guy like cam payne will languish their whole career and then figure it out 5+ years later… and then get stuck at that level or revert afterwards… that’s not the same thing… these are young guys with good pedigrees adapting to the environment around them and being able to do so quickly is a very good indicator for their future…

we may not know how high that goes… but you can probably bet that he’ll be at least a good starter… and most good starters are going to get 20-28mm anyway…. so i don’t really see an outcome where a max isn’t going to be worth it.. this isn’t a KP situation where he comes in with a tough guy act and then just spends his summers hanging out with his brother and flatlines for four straight seasons…

There’s so much time left before RJs extension I don’t really see the point of discussing it. We’re missing half the data we’ll have by the time we need to make a decision. There’s too much that can happen for it to be an informed opinion either way.

RJ looks very promising after his sophomore year and I hope he maintains his shooting while adding more wrinkles to his game. I have no idea what happens the next 2 years, regression, improvement, and (god forbid) injury are all possible. We’re really jumping the gun on this one.

Mitch is potentially getting signed to a new deal this off-season, what do we think about him?

I think for a volume scorer (efficient or not) and 3rd overall pick, at even decent production, RJ will likely command a max from somebody.

Mikal doesn’t score enough to warrant a max deal & he wasn’t drafted 3rd overall with the same expectations and potential.

Maybe we can get a slight discount on RJ, but just by reputation I doubt it happens if he is slightly more efficient. Again, there’s 2 more years so lots can happen.

I’m getting so sick of the hack-a-star strategy. It’s time for the NBA to revert to the 3 shots to make 2 when the team is over the limit and 2 to make 1 instead of the and-1 if over the limit. Go back to the pre-1981 rules!

Reading this “debate” about RJ’s next contract is hilarious. We always complain that the Knicks never build thru the draft and haven’t signed a rookie to a contract extension since Charlie Ward. The Knicks finally have a high draft pick worthy of keeping long term and people after his 2nd season are already worrying about giving him too much money when he is 23 yo and talking about possibly trading him for I assume mostly draft picks which is super ironic.

“djphan
July 8, 2021 at 7:28 pm

and if anyone is concerned about what RJ will become… just take solace in the fact that it’s incredibly rare… if it’s even happened… for a young player to improve as drastically as RJ has… and then never improve at all for the rest of their career… if anyone can think of one i’m all ears…. ”

*

By “drastic improvement”, it’s a bit tricky to find comps because RJ was really quite terrible in his rookie year. So, sure, few players have improved that much. But every year there are examples of high lottery picks that start poor, improve enough to get a big salary, and subsequently plateau/regress, making them negative assets to their respective teams. The aforementioned D’Angelo Russell is a recent one. Others include: Aaron Gordon, Buddy Hield, Victor Oladipo, Otto Porter, Harison Barnes, Brevin Knight, Michael-Kidd Gilchrist, Eric Gordon, etc.. Even our own beloved Allen Houston started terrible (like, RJ Barrett bad), improved enough to get a supermax, only to plateau with his supermax deal and become a godforesaken albatross so big that an amnesty clause was named after him (even if it wasn’t used on him).

Not saying RJ is going to be any of these guys, but there seem to be many examples of such “development”.

***One way to end the incessant fouling at the end of games is to offer teams an option of shooting the 2 (or 3) FTs or taking a “technical” FT (anyone on the floor can shoot it) and giving them possession after the FT attempt… That definitely sped up the game, but I doubt the NBA goes for any solution that awards points apart from shooting***

Yeah, at the WCF game I took my daughter to, Monty had the Suns foul on every possession in the final minute with his team UP by 3. Though I understood the analytical argument to do it, it was kind of strange to see as somebody who grew up watching only the trailing team intentionally foul at the end of games. Also, it was hard to explain to my daughter, who just wanted to see the Clips try to tie the game. She was like “this is dumb and boring”, which is not the way Adam Silver wants young fans to feel during the end of close WCF games. So I feel like the league should be open to any changes that address this, including Z-Man’s suggestion above. (Also, I feel like analytics that effect team building, roster development, and big-picture in-game strategy are great, but when they piss on the final minute of a close game, it makes me kind of hate the nerds.)

Another thought: can’t you give a team the right to decline a penalty if it acts against them, like they do in the NFL? So if there’s a foul, the team can opt just to take it out, rather than have to shoot the free throws and surrender the possession. Just a thought.

(I’m all for Jowles’ Elam ending idea, but you can only institute that for overtime, right? Not the end of regulation).

But every year there are examples of high lottery picks that start poor, improve enough to get a big salary, and subsequently plateau/regress, making them negative assets to their respective teams. The aforementioned D’Angelo Russell is a recent one. Others include: Aaron Gordon, Buddy Hield, Victor Oladipo, Otto Porter, Harison Barnes, Brevin Knight, Michael-Kidd Gilchrist, Eric Gordon, etc..

so i think you were misunderstanding me…

it’s incredibly rare… if it’s even happened… for a young player to improve as drastically as RJ has… and then never improve at all for the rest of their career…

if a player can fight their way from the bottom of the nba… and then identify what’s wrong to immediately improve themselves to get to league average that quickly… they also have the ability to evolve themselves to eventually get to the upper echelons of the nba…

with that in mind let’s take a look at your list:

Russell age 19 – his leap didn’t come until age 22
Gordon 19 – wasn’t exactly terrible coming in.. but out of everyone this is the best example
Hield 24 – came into to league a million years old and still took a few years to make a leap
Oladipo 21 – he made an allstar team
Barnes 20 – his leap didn’t come until his 3rd year at age 22
Porter 20 – he was hurt his rookie year
Knight 20 – bpm of 3.6 rookie year
MKG 19 – leap was in his third year.. if you use ws48 maybe it applies .. but i’m pretty sure bpm captured his career more accurately…
E Gordon 20 – again the leap came in his third year

so credit on finding Gordon but i think the parameters are being stretched if we’re just using every lotto pick who struggled early .. alot of players improve later in their careers… and that’s what you’re capturing..

what doesn’t happen is a very large improvement going from 1st to 2nd years .. and that’s captured by the ingram/brown/siakam group…

cont’d

Donnie Walsh: (Also, I feel like analytics that effect team building, roster development, and big-picture in-game strategy are great, but when they piss on the final minute of a close game, it makes me kind of hate the nerds.)

Great story, Donnie. As to analytics, even aside from that there have always been identifiable ways to get an edge in a given sports situation that made the sport consider a modification of some sort. Wilt by himself generated more rule changes than anything because he had so many physical advantages.

I remember the 3 to make 2 days, not a fan of that, only slows the game down more, but it was a clunky attempt to solve the same issue…excessive fouling. Some may remember that back in the 60’s, there was no such thing as a “non-shooting ” foul…a non-shooting foul was one FT, a shooting foul was two FTS, then in the penalty it went to 2 and 3 to make 2. The non-shooting foul definitely sped the game up.

Personally, I don’t get why the NBA is so reluctant to address this particular problem head on. They already made some tangential moves, e.g. if you foul a person off the ball in the last 2 minutes it’s one shot and the ball. Same with fouling a guy before the ball is inbounded. Why they can’t continue down this path is beyond me.

Another option you could give a team that is fouled in the last 2 minutes is to run the clock down a certain amount of seconds, which is done on certain penalties in the last minute of an NFL game.

A week or two back, I linked to a piece by a sports media guy (Richard Deitsch at The Athletic, I think?) who said that foul-and-pray is actually good for business, because games get their biggest audiences in the closing minutes of “action,” so anything that extends that segment of the game increases the average audience and helps the league make more money in advertising.

So… yeah.

Speaking of baseball, I wonder if the infield shifts will cause a reaction down the chain all the way to HS for players to become better situational hitters. I’d rather see that than a rules change to discourage the shift. It’s frustrating to see so many well hit balls that used to be clean hits gobbled up by an infielder playing in right field, yet it’s also embarrasing that players have such a hard time hitting the other way.

Since I don’t want to be accused of lying on the internet, it was not one of Barry’s kids who coached me, but one of his nephews. Realized this after the ‘edit post’ timer ran out. Definitely wasn’t coached by Brent, Jon or Scooter. But my point still stands!

Dink:
Since I don’t want to be accused of lying on the internet, it was not one of Barry’s kids who coached me, but one of his nephews. Realized this after the ‘edit post’ timer ran out. Definitely wasn’t coached by Brent, Jon or Scooter. But my point still stands!

Scooter?
🙂

*Rick Barry’s son coached my 7th/8th grade basketball team and had us all shooting FTs underhanded. If he could get us over 70% as a team I have no doubt it could work for NBA players.

Why are you turning Knickerblogger into a den of lies?!

Lying on KB? Time to shut the whole thing down. We only except statistics and damned lies

Alan: remember back in the day Shaq said that was an issue for him. His hands were so big that it was hard for him to shoot free throws.

And the flip side was a guy like Ewing, whose relatively small hands made him a great shooter for a big man (he’d almost certainly be a stretch 5 if he played in the modern NBA), but made him a lesser rebounder and finisher than peers like Shaq, Robinson, and Hakeem.

Of course if we took this to its logical extreme, Nerlens with his Deadpool butterstumps would be shooting 95% from the stripe. Unfortunately he’s at 65% for his career.

“Of course if we took this to its logical extreme, Nerlens with his Deadpool butterstumps would be shooting 95% from the stripe. Unfortunately he’s at 65% for his career.”

We actually have this data. Noel’s hands are 9.5×10″

Draft Measurements

The issue is that Noel clearly lost his hands in a lawnmower accident and has sown on mannequin hands in their place.

It seems to me that the super strong guys With huge hands like Wilt, Shaq, Wallace, Dudley, Giannis, DeAndre, etc. are the ones who have the most trouble, maybe because the ball feels so small and light to them. Even Bill Russell was in the 50%s for his career, and I doubt that it was due to a lack of work ethic.

Wilt’s best FT% season was 61′-62′ when he switched to the granny style. He shot 61.3% that year, 11% higher than the previous season and 10% better than his career average. He didn’t stop shooting that way because it wasn’t working. Here’s a quote from his autobiography:

“I felt silly, like a sissy, shooting underhanded. I know I was wrong, I know some of the best foul shooters in history shot that way. I just couldn’t do it.”

I may have been pushing it by saying 70% would be attainable, but Wilt showed you can make a big improvement over just one season. Guys like Giannis should at least have an open mind about it.

Shaq’s FT shooting form was ridiculously bad, maybe the worst I’ve ever seen. His elbow did the “chicken wing” thing, and he generated no arc or spin on his free throws, so the whole thing was this knuckleball line drive kind of monstrosity. He’d never get a friendly bounce because there was no spin on the ball.

I used to love watching him try and fail to shoot free throws, I found it endlessly entertaining. He was a great player in his day but I don’t get the feeling he ever worked very hard on the FT thing. It was just the same fugly knuckleball clanging off the rim thousands of times.

All will become clear when we remember this ironclad principle:

Not even relentless strings of actually losing actual games chaps the asses of the permanent internet armchair GM class more than the “bad contract.”

I’ve never seen a contract I didn’t like to trade!

Neither the Sixers, the Blazers, or the Mavs are losing teams and none are remotely “fucked.”

It was poor word choice by me.

All of those teams are in good position bc they each have one legit superstar: Embiid, Lillard, and Doncic, respectively.

But each one of those teams (and Milwaukee) has the same problem: their #2 guy is a max player who didn’t deserve a max.

Does anyone really think Devon Booker at $29.4mm right now is a bad deal?

i mean of course looking at in hindsight with the benefit of running through the west without each of their opponents having their best or second best player sitting injured… it looks pretty great.. the reason the suns are here are mainly because of a)chris paul and b)ayton/bridges on rookie deals which mitigate the hurt from the booker deal.. once they have to resign basically half the team to much larger deals… it’s going to start feeling a bit cramped… it’s probably going to cost them bridges and payne at the very least….

and even though from a value perspective it was a bad deal… it’s still excusable… i was advocating to sign d’angelo russell and randle to big contracts also way back when …. and at that juncture in their careers dlo and booker were very comparable…. depending where you are on the win curve you should be taking gambles like that because you’re still in talent accumulation mode and all it takes is cap space…. and phoenix didn’t have anyone on their roster worth a damn…. to finally get a warm body you should do everything you can to keep him and then worry about the rest later because it could be awhile before you get more talent to where that contract matters…

it just so happened they squeezed enough talent in a short amount of time to where the deal didn’t matter either… so they were fortunate in that regard too… but there are instances where giving out max deals are fine even if the value proposition isn’t all that great because you can get value elsewhere… and that means hitting on draft picks and getting an alltime player to do most of the heavy lifting… and that’s what happened with the bucks and suns…

Everyone who is saying it’s too early to tell on RJ is obviously right, but these second contract max deals make or break a franchise.

IMO, there’s only 2 situations that warrant a max deal on a players second contract:

1. he will deliver surplus value

2. he won’t deliver surplus value but you already have a team capable of winning the title in place and he’s an important piece so it doesn’t matter if you overpay him.

I think RJ is unlikely to qualify for #1. If we get the players to make #2 a reality, ok. If not, use restricted free agency to our advantage and sign him to a fair deal less than the max.

I could see him getting an Oladipo-type deal if he fails to take the leap in either efficiency or volume. If he does both, he’s obviously a max player, which should start around $30M for his eligibility. Best case scenario is something like 4/$80M, but he’d have to unequivocally disappoint over the next two seasons.

Hubert: that’s the thing, right? If he makes another leap, he’s earned a max. I was under the impression we were discussing whether or not to max him at this level.

Right now, I’d offer him 4/$80 if he were openly risk-averse and looking for long-term security. I would not offer a max until year 4, contingent on the above.

If anyone is curious about how good Randle and RJ look with league average 3pt shooting (.367 3p%) instead of the high-water marks they hit:

RJ – .521 TS%
Randle – .550 TS%

League Avg: .572 TS%

Discuss.

3pt shooting is inherently volatile, all except the absolute best shooters in the league will fail to consistently shoot above 40%.

I don’t think most people on this board will say RJ and Randle are the best shooters in the league. I don’t know how good they are, but it’s reasonable to expect some regression. I chose league average because it’s the easiest number to plug in.

I don’t really have an agenda with this, I’m just updating some spreadsheets and thought it was more interesting than speculating about RJ’s extension that’s still 2 years away.

.
.
.

Also, I updated my Knicks salary cap spreadsheets.

2021: ~$48M cap space
2022: ~$47M cap space

2022 includes $3M draft pick placeholder, Randle’s cap hold ($29.7M), & Mitch’s cap hold ($3.4M). We renounce Knox.

A 7-9 yr max salary in 2022 will run about $37M (I think), that gives us $10M in commitments to play with for 2022 for Beal, LaVine, Butler, or Kyrie.

A 10 yr max salary will run about $41M (Durant, Harden, Curry, Kawhi).

The salaries will be slightly higher if we S&T for the above players, which seems likely if we sign them at all.

We’d have 13 player slots used for 2022 including draft picks.

I stopped following baseball long ago, but this Ohtani kid is truly amazing.

About the league expansion, which is not in their immediate plans, i know, but…
“the league could also look at major cities overseas such as London, Montreal and Mexico City”.
London would be great for us europeans to easily catch one or two games a year, but i don’t think it could work for the league. This team would have to make a transatlantic trip each time they went on the road, and the rest of the league would have to get some free days when it’d be the time to come play in London. I don’t know, but if the expansion is faraway, a team in Europe it’s probably even farther away.

Owen has a type, and Booker ain’t it. It’s like asking Leonardo DiCaprio why he’s not interested in an older woman like Charlize Theron.

I like Booker a lot, as well, but I have to admit he’s more of an eye test guy.

Today I learned that 27 PPG on .567 TS% is actually 30 PPG on .600 TS%

What Jowles said.

I get more of a Rip Hamilton vibe from Booker. Obviously his rep is bigger than that, and maybe he is better than peak Rip, but I can’t think of him as a true superstar.

Booker, this season at least, is playing the “innings eater volume scorer” role. League average efficiency but on very high usage. It works for the Suns— they were the #5 offense in the league and Booker is obviously a key part of the offense.

He was more productive last year though, and I wouldn’t be surprised at all to see him have a monster season where he shoots 3’s efficiently in addition to the rest of his offensive game. On his current contract he’s decent value, it’s the next contract that’s going to be dodgy.

***Just because I think Booker isn’t worth a max on a Thunder or Rockets roster doesn’t mean he’s not worth it to PHX, who should be pushing all the chips in now.***

Yeah, but they signed him to his extension during their 19 win season. They pushed that chip in then, not now. Which, in the context of recent threads, wouldn’t have been a move endorsed here by knickerbloggers.

Jack Bauer:
Remember, Booker is putting up those numbers and playing big minutes with a broken nose too. It may just be “the eye test” but he looks pretty good to me. Ask Lebron and the Lakers how they feel about him, he absolutely destroyed LA in the the first round. I’d take him and that contract on my team right now for sure.

Seems like the perfect opportunity for everyone to finally once and for all dispense with the idea that the blatantly obvious requires “confirmation” by things like VORP, BPM, and WS48.

Tails don’t wag dogs and all.

Yes, I agree. Which is why I criticized it. And if Chris Paul doesn’t play like early-30s Chris Paul, or gets injured, we’re not having this conversation. The Suns have had incredible injury luck this year. Their strategy carried a lot of “48-win ceiling” risk but they are reaping the rewards right now. I give them credit for being less risk-averse than I would have been. Aside from skipping Doncic for Ayton (which, if the other way around, likely puts them in the Finals anyway), I don’t think there’s much to criticize. I wouldn’t have done most of what they’ve done, and they wouldn’t be two wins from a chip. Good for them.

We’ve gotten used to teams playing in a bubble or in empty arenas where home court didn’t mean much. But years ago, if the home team in a series won the first two games, the series wasn’t considered close to over, it was just getting started.

But will this thread still be going by Tuesday, Brian?

Obi and Quickey’s quotes from the USA Select team practices? Earl Monroe thinks CP3 would be a great MSG fit? Another poll? Help us out here, Brian.

I know it was only an exhibition, but how did Team USA lose to Nigeria?

I’m too pissed about Quickley getting kicked off the team because of some dumb Hornets player to talk about the U.S. Select team. I guess a poll could work.

I missed this, I though quik was just sick?

The Honorable Cock Jowles:
Today I learned that 27 PPG on .567 TS% is actually 30 PPG on .600 TS%

Dude, easy on the glaucoma meds.

1) In 2019-20, Devin Booker’s TS% was .618. In 2020-21, it was .587. Last I checked, that averages out to over .600. If you want to throw in the year before, it’s in the high .590’s.

2) I wrote usage, not PPG. In three straight years, he’s shot at a .584 TS% at over a 30% Usage. U-S-A-G-E. Not PPG.

My guess is that the list of players who averaged 27 PPG on a 30+% usage at a TS% of above .590 playing over 2200 minutes in their age 22,23,and 24 seasons is really short.

The Suns hit a fucking grand slam in maxing Booker. He is only going to get better. By 2023-24, $35.9 mill is going to be a steal. Oh wait, it’s $39.57 million. I wouldn’t want to embellish.

I don’t think this is the strongest USA team ever, but losing to Nigeria??? Even in an exhibition we should blow them out. Must’ve hit the clubs really hard the night before.

@TommyBeer
Luca Vildoza finished with 11 points (on 3-of-9 shooting) and 2 assists in 9 mins in Argentina’s loss to Australia

Here he is knocking one down from Curry range.

Luca from halfcourt!

I missed this, I though quik was just sick?

He’s a close contact of one of the Hornets players who got COVID, so they’re just sending all three home (I’ll admit, it’s just easier to do that).

I like that Vildoza just pulls up into a regular shooting motion from half court, lol none of that heave stuff

Early Bird: Seems like Vildoza isn’t playing PG, which is disappointing… I desperately want more Vildoza content

Argentina has Campazzo, who’s the more established point guard (and reportedly more of a pure playmaker than Vildoza, who may be a combo guard type like IQ).

@Alan,

I know, but still hoped to see him clock minutes there as the backup. Instead it seems to have gone to Nicolas Brussino who plays in the Spanish League too.

Can’t complain about a solid SG for $3M, but a PG for $3M is way more of a steal. Not that he won’t be a good PG, I’m just impatient with the evidence and it may have some minor implications for the draft and FA.

wow, what a day to have some sports on in the background…wimbledon mens, euro final, yanks-astros, later tonight game 3 of the finals…and, shit: frank plays today???

oh hell no, that’s just too much of an incentive not to leave the house, not that i planned to make it further than watering out in the patio and maybe throwing out the garbage…still 🙂

plus it’s still like a billion degrees outside, skins still peeling from a couple of weeks ago…

hands down quote of the day/weekend/year/whatever – dustin poirier after his bout with mcgregor, wherein this guy is sitting there with his back against the cage getting his broken leg splinted up, all the while talking shit about dustin’s wife:

image of the year, bravo missus poirier, it’s a little grainy, they’ll be something better up later…

anyways this is some cajun wisdom for ya:
“But, you know, this guy is a dirtbag. Karma is not a bitch, she’s a mirror, and this guy said the wrong shit.”

well, that was a rough few minutes if you were rooting for the yanks and england…

I stopped even paying attention to the Yankee game…

I dont really have a dog in the UEFA game, but that last save by England’s goalkeeper had me on the edge of my seat and finally starting to root for England. Boy was the last PK a letdown.

Owen:
Perhaps some hot Frankie Smokes FIBA highlights for your viewing pleasure?

https://twitter.com/dallasamico_/status/1414311511980314625?s=21

(I can’t resist)

The highlights are all of him scoring, and even include a drive to the basket. Where is the Frank we know and love?

Rough loss for the Mets today but a good day for Mets fans overall as Kumar Rocker fell to their lap at #10. This is a guy who would have been consensus #1 overall as a sophomore, had a few rough games as a junior and slipped, but an elite talent. I love his arsenal of stuff– fastball with lots of late movement, wipeout slider that grades as a 70 pitch, looping 2200 RPM curveball with filthy break. Changeup needs a little work but he’s an absolute horse at 6’5″, 250.

Rocker’s flaws have gotten nitpicked a lot, but he has mostly blown away hitters in college. I’m psyched.

Giannis pretty good when he makes his free throws….

So when you’re dead wrong, just play the “well, I was actually right but incredible luck intervened” card. Right

Lakers lose AD halfway through series up 2-1. Not luck.

Nuggets had lost their own Devin Booker well before the playoffs. Not luck.

Clippers lost Kawhi mere games before the WCF. Chris Paul missed his first two non-DNPCD games of the season and returns perfectly healthy. Not luck.

I’d have called the Giannis injury a superfecta had he not been built of adamantium. No luck to be seen here, none at all!

***Lakers lose AD halfway through series up 2-1. Not luck.

Nuggets had lost their own Devin Booker well before the playoffs. Not luck.

Clippers lost Kawhi mere games before the WCF. Chris Paul missed his first two non-DNPCD games of the season and returns perfectly healthy. Not luck.***

This is kind of a low-hanging fruit argument to make, and rather easy to refute. 1) AD getting hurt doesn’t rely on luck as it happens almost every year; 2) the Nuggets went 13-5 following Murray’s injury, still had the reigning MVP at full strength, and had just defeated a fully healthy Blazers team 4-2. Yet Phoenix swept them and none of the games were even close. Not luck; 3) The Kawhi Clippers weren’t exactly dominating the playoffs. They’d lost three home games in the first round against a team much worse than the Suns, and were very hot-and-cold against the Jazz. It certainly didn’t hurt the Suns that Kawhi didn’t play, at the same time, Paul missed those two games that the Suns won anyway (thanks to Booker), and when Paul came back he actually played very badly, shooting 19-60 over three games.

It’s not like the Suns are some #8 seed that got hot and got a bunch of lucky bounces to win games they shouldn’t have. They had the best record in the league, and stayed fully healthy. It’s really hard to diminish their path to the finals as “luck”.

The suns had the second best record in the NBA. They had the best road record in the NBA. The Lakers series was a bit weird but there isnt anything historically flukey about them being in the finals

I really don’t know if Knox is a bigger disappointment than Ntilikina. I think it depends on who’s doing the disappointing. Everyone at Knickerblogger hated the Knox pick so for them he’s actually performing at expectations which is clearly different from disappointing. On the other hand, many here had hopes for Ntilikina so on this board Ntilikina is the bigger disappointment. But Knox was actually drafted higher than Ntilikina and gotten fewer minutes to play, so I think for many outside of Knickerblogger he is the bigger disappointment.

suns had the easiest road to the finals since i don’t know when… but it’s not very often that you get to face the opposing team every round without their best.. or their second best… players… they were good in the regular season… and there’s no denying that …but they were the benefactors of some real injury luck in every round that probably hasn’t happened before… it takes some real contorting of the events to deny that happened and that it didn’t impact their Finals run…