From Jon Levine:
Hell hath no fury like James Dolan scorned.
The controversial Knicks boss is pouring cash into the effort to help GOP Congressional candidate Nicole Malliotakis beat incumbent Democratic Staten Island Rep. Max Rose — all because Rose recently trash-talked his ownership of the perennially losing New York Knicks.
“Max Rose thinks he can make our team and my ownership his political platform,” Dolan wrote in a personal email to friends last week that was obtained by The Post. “I need to let him know that we will not stand for this. The best way to do this is to help his opponent. He is in a tight race for the US Congress in Staten Island. … Please join me in helping Nicole defeat Max Rose for Congress.
“It will help send a strong message to all NY politicians that the Knicks will not be their political ticket to reelection. The most you can donate is $2,800,” Dolan added. “I cannot do this alone due to the limit on campaign contributions.”
But he sure is trying.
A $50,000 check from MSG Sports was cut Tuesday to “The Governing Majority Fund,” a PAC run by former Reps. John Faso and Jeff Denham, Dolan confirmed. The PAC’s mission is to help Republicans take back the House.
“Faso said Dolan got pissed off at Max Rose because he said something about the Knicks being a sh–ty team and then Dolan turned around and wrote a $50,000 check to his PAC,” a source close to Faso told The Post.
James Dolan is the gift that keeps on giving.
328 replies on “NY Post: Angry James Dolan cuts check for Malliotakis campaign after Max Rose trash-talk”
OK guys, which one of you is Max Rose? You can come out 🙂
Dolan is probably petty enough to read this blog. Hey, Jimmy. Fuck you.
Mr. Dolan sir I was only joking all those times please hire me as General Manager when the new guys fuck up
I just don’t believe it. I seriously don’t believe it. There’s just no way they could be that dumb. Right?
I can totally see Thibs believing that he can turn Okoro into Butler 2.0. And if the guy could shoot, he’d be a top 3 pick, since the rest of his game seems very well rounded. But can he learn to shoot?
I know it’s too much to ask for, but – go nuggets…
Kilgore had a pretty good day for himself. They choppered
in t-bones and beer and turned the LZ into a beach party.
The more they tried to make it just like home, the more they
made everybody miss it.”
I know this probably won’t make much sense, but, watching college football today with fans and the whole band blowing hard in the stands made me think about what martin sheen had to say about col kilgore…
bubble basketball, baseball with cutouts in the seats made me pause a bit, but, was still able to reconcile myself with sports and the virus stuff…college football, just looks dicey like that sturgis biker con thing…
Nah, he’s got a corporate assistant stooge who reads all the Knicks blogs and reports bullet points to him each day. For today:
Knickerblogger’s Latest Thread:
1. Cockjowles again said “Fuck You”
2. Dred once again begged for the GM job
3. TheClashfan questioned your commitment to literacy and called me your “stooge”
4. No news posts today from our mole on the board
Lebron and Mike Malone conspiring to keep Denver from getting to game 6
Is it smart to play your best player 29 minutes in an elimination game? Who can tell, really
I wonder if Marcus Morris is still in the bubble. Has he been shown in the players’ families section?
Just in case he’s reading:
Your music fucking sucks and you can’t sing worth a shit. Your hired gun musicians are just there for the paycheck and they’re dying inside every second they have to share a stage with your sorry ass. They might say “Cool song Mr Dolan” from time to time but they know it’s the worst shit ever. They pretend to be your friend because you pay them above their market rate.
That was some weird ass coaching.
Look. The coaches know more about basketball then… lol, jk. That was so stupid.
I can take 20 years of shit basketball (apparently) but I may actually leave if Dolan starts giving large sums of money to GOP super-PACs.
Dolan really was put on this earth to make me as miserable as possible.
I don’t live in NY, so I don’t know the intricacies of those issues- but I will concede that Dolan does not make it easy to be/remain a Knicks fan. This move was beyond petty. What’s he gonna do next? Have the Knicks not play any games because the NBA community, by and large (especially fans), think that he needs to sell the team? These days I can’t discern who is more of a petulant child- the POTUS or Dolan. Yikes!
Jimmy D has a minion reading it for him. And to that minion I say, please help.
Someone recommended The Boys here. Alan? And another friend of mine too. It’s actually pretty ok. Strong middlebrow content, more depth than you would expect, pretty funny in parts, with solid acting. Nothing lifechanging but definitely enjoyable.
So RJ Barrett widened the base on his shooting form and it makes for a less clunky release. If he commits to the changes in his shooting motion it could raise his 3PT% 3-4 points, and at his current volume that would be a really helpful development.
Also, my guy Tyrell Terry is currently 20 pounds heavier and 2 inches taller than when last seen at Stanford. All in all, that brings him to 6’3”, 174 pounds which is still on the small side, but this is the guy we need to draft at point guard. I do not think the Knicks can afford to not land Terry in the draft. Trading up for Ball would cost assets while trading down for Terry might land you an extra 2RP or get Dennis Smith Jr off the books a year early.
Also, I’m not shocked when rich white billionaires do GOP things like Dolan is currently doing. Hopefully his newfound interest in politics will get him to reveal his problematic nature in a way that is irredeemable and forces the NBA to take the team from him.
Sadly enough, I don’t think Dolan’s support of a political party is enough to mean anything or lead to anything
Honestly I’d be shocked if any of the NBA’s owners were not republicans who donated to various political campaigns. What I’m really saying is maybe if Dolan becomes a public figure he’ll say something racist and be forced to sell the team. He got really lucky the Browne Sanders case happened in 2006 and not 2016.
In terms of politics, Dolan is a liberal compared to Woody Johnson. Will Steve Cohen complete the trifecta of owners I hate running the teams I love?
Dolan may be a petulant asshole, much like the president he supports, but he has never said or done anything racist. Underlying Cronin’s post and all the posts above is this assumption that for anyone to support the GOP they must be racist.
To label people racist because of their party affiliation basically says half the country is racist, alienates them from your party, and disrespects whatever they may believe – much of which you may agree with. If we’re being socially active like the 60s lets show some love too.
At this point, wetbandit, I think it’s fair to say that even if people who support this administration aren’t themselves racist, they have decided that racism is no longer a dealbreaker. Because there can be no denying whatsoever what 45 himself and his cronies are all about.
Wasn’t me. I had very mixed feelings on the first season and haven’t watched the second yet. I also hated the source material — the writer, Garth Ennis, is often one of my favorites, but The Boys seems to collect all of his most immature and self-indulgent tics into one place — though I think the show does some interesting inversions of it.
I think calling all Republicans racists is like calling all Democrats cop-haters.
I really like Terry, he’s got a chance to be the best player in this draft. It would be ballsy to take him at #8, but this is the draft to not worry about reaching, no one in the top 20-30 is a sure thing either way. I like how he has approached building strength and just the way he sounds…seems like a very cerebral kid who already can shoot the lights out. I feel pretty confident that he will be a lot better a lot faster than Hayes.
No disagreement here on any of that. I’m talking about labeling all Republicans as horrible racists and I’m not down with that. There are many reasons to be republican and only one of them may be racist. You and I may disagree with one Republican because he believes in, say, lower taxes contributing to a better economy and better opportunities, but that belief alone won’t make him racist. Most R’s I know despise Trump.
Social media characters are not representative of any group. I suspect most are trolls, crazies, extremists, or foreign influencers.
To be clear, the GOP has A LOT to answer for in terms of racism, racist tinged language, and their stance on social issues. Any Republican supporter should be held to the fire and asked if they condone things said and done in recent years. But it wasn’t considered a racist party back when W was president. And there are many party policy differences that do not boil down to good vs bad. We have to stop perpetuating this.
“But it wasn’t considered a racist party back when W was president.”,,,,,,
what planet were you living on back then?
Z-Man, that was a Strat-level disingeneous take. Yes there are undoubtedly some far-left Dems who hate the police. But the vast majority are looking to find ways to re-vamp police departments to lessen the clear racism that directs violence (and incarceration) toward people of color, and that forces the police to do things they are wildly untrained to handle. That’s what the party is looking to figure out (although it’s the Democratic party, so I have to presume they’ll mostly fail). On the other hand, the actual leaders of the Republican party are clearly using racist tropes to drive their re-election efforts. To compare anti-racist attempts to revise a system that clearly isn’t working for a significant portion of the American population to the attempt to increase the wedge between white and non-white and continue (or grow) the level of fear and unfair practices experienced by people of color is just sad. If you are willing to vote for that second group, if you’re not blatantly racist you’re (as Alan said) clearly not giving a fuck about racism. Which, as people have been arguing much more eloquently than I can for the last six months, is in fact actually racist. I can’t imagine how even a one-issue person (abortion, lower taxes) can act as though the rest of the party platform isn’t happening.
And yeah, I’m with Pepper on that one. I have to assume Wetbandit is like 20 or something, and too young to know about/remember the Republican’s Southern Platform, Willie Horton, and on and on and on. It’s just that until lately white people happily had their heads in the sand, or tsk-tsked when it was occasionally reported. Cell phone videos have really made it a bit harder to ignore… Plus party leaders who have really embraced blatant racist statements.
Par for the course
This is whataboutism, we can go back and forth on tons of dirty politics through the years. But yes, shit like that is why im a democrat. If you think half the country is Republican and thus a rabid racist, Including my educated brown family, who is all Republican, then this country is irrevocably broken and filled with evil people. I always choose to understand the other side and assume they are not evil first. I dont think tons of white middle America are Republicans because they’re racist.
Just drove past a sign on my way to Southern Oregon. “Trump 2020: Make Liberals Cry Again.”
Raven, I’ll ignore the personal attack for now.
To be clear, I was speaking about KKK-level racists vs. virulent cop-haters. I thought you were smart enough to discern that given my posting history. But I disagree with your premise that you have to be ambivalent about racism to be a Republican. The loose definition of “racism” you are using applies to a huge chunk of Democrats as well. If you don’t believe that, take a look at the demographics of the school system in NYC, perhaps the most Democratic large city in the country. See how the majority of Democratic voters react when you talk about eliminating the admissions preferences that benefit their kids, or zoning a sewage treatment plant or homeless shelter or low income housing in their neighborhood. It’s even worse in the democratic suburbs.
And whether you want to believe it or not, tons of Republicans are single-issue voters, especially around the issues of abortion, religious liberty, and taxation. They will live with the fringe (or even fringe-ish mainstream) because of those issues. Just as centrist Democrats will live with the far-left elements of the party. I agree it’s not an equal balance, but your take is incredibly simplistic, if not flat-out disingenuous.
Dolan’s support may not amount to much. But his very public censure of Rose may just provide the boost needed to push his campaign past the finish line.
Even if Max Rose were in favor of raising taxes on all New Yorkers by 100%, paving over Central Park, and abolishing the last vestiges of rent control those egregious positions would be largely overlooked so long as he made this the centerpiece of his campaign:
“The Knicks suck… and have sucked for a very, very long time. This is a travesty. New York & its long suffering basketball fans deserve better. The NBA deserves better from what should rightly be its flagship franchise. I pledge to use everything within my power as your elected representative to put the team back on the winning path by compelling its feculent owner, James Dolan, to relinquish his stranglehold on it by selling as quickly as possible to any party able to provide a more responsible stewardship of this storied franchise.”
Talk about an issue that the vast majority of New Yorkers could rally behind & heartily support. Hell, I’d vote for him twice and I don’t even live in Staten Island.
Wetbandit, part of the problem we’re having here is that the definitions have shifted. Racism used to mean wearing a white robe, gleefully turning people of color away from lunch stands and bathrooms. It allowed people to say “Those racists are evil; I’m not evil, therefore I’m not a racist.” That perspective has changed; racism now means things that oppress people of a different race. Supporting those things, consciously or unconsciously, is racism. It doesn’t mean you’re evil in intent. It means you’re supporting things that are, when you turn over the rock, evil. A lot of (mostly white) folks are still struggling with that shift, and it’s why you’re seeing more of “anti-racist” as a term (actively taking a stand against things that oppress people of other races). It’s the idea that the system is so rigged against people of color here in the US that there’s really no middle ground, no ‘color-blindness’ — you’re either tacitly (or actively) supporting racist policies, or working against them. That’s where we find ourselves.
Z-man, apologies for the insult (although I love that calling someone Strat here is such an insult!). And yes, I don’t really disagree with most of what you say (but see my post above). Again, the difference between parties is that one is led by a bunch of (admittedly inept) centrists like Biden, with the fringe angrily yelling from the back seat, while the other is led by an example of its most vile fringe (and the whole front seat is packed with them), And I struggle to accept that it’s some ‘fringe’ these days when such a huge percent still see Trump favorably. Not Republicanism favorably (e.g., particular agenda items) and holding one’s nose to vote for Trump, but Trump favorably and all he stands for.
Okay, I just hijacked this thread. I’m going off to be productive.
I essentially agree with everything you are saying. My original post was not to suggest that there was moral equivalency between the two major parties, not by a long shot. I just think labeling all Republicans as “racists” is neither accurate (unless you apply the same standard to Democrats) nor productive, similar to labeling all Democrats as “radical far-left extremist haters of law enforcement.”
And no matter how anyone spins it, chanting “Defund the Police” is not the same as chanting “Reform police training, practices and accountability under the law.” It plays into Republican hands by justifying their hollow calls for “Law and Order” and makes it easier to caricature all Democrats as enablers of violent anarchists. It’s a bad strategy for winning power.
That said, Biden is trying to brand himself as a centrist who is sensitive to the fears of folks on both sides and who will listen to their grievances with an open mind. He’s ham-handed at it, but I think it’s a smart strategy. The folks I know on the extreme far left (2016 Jill Stein voters, e.g.) are not going to vote for Biden anyway, so he’s not going to lose many votes by moving to the center while paying enough lip service to progressives in the Democratic platform to get them to turn out. For example, painting aspects of the Green New Deal as job-generating rather than environment-saving is smart. Painting universal health care as an incremental aspiration rather than an all-or-none proposition is smart. Painting police reform as a goal that might require more funding rather than less is smart.
That debate Tuesday night is gonna be some kind of shit show. Trump lobbing insults at Biden, and Biden getting too overwrought and stammering with his responses. I support Biden 100%, but man, I hold my breath every time he speaks off the cuff.
And yes, it’s a different bar for Trump vs. everyone else when it comes to incoherence, but unfortunately we just have to live with it.
I thought Biden sounded great in an interview he did yesterday. He’s surely going to have gaffes, but he’s so prone to them it seems like it won’t make much difference. His messaging seems to be pretty locked in and that should play well if Trump gets nasty.
My biggest worry is that the election depends on a few thousand votes in Pennsylvania and Trump’s team is successful in getting Congress or the Supreme Court to decide the election. That’s why states like NC, OH, AZ and FL become so important. Even the 2 districts in ME and NE. I don’t think Trump can succeed in having the Court or Congress weigh in on 2 states. And even if PA has a controversy, I don’t think splitting the electors will help him, they would all have to go for Trump.
Yeah, if you really think Terry is significantly better than the guys around him just take him 8th
Word for word agreement.
Democrats are idiots for still running with Biden- he clearly has dementia or some kind of cognitive impairment. What a shitshow this debate and election will be. What an embarrassment that these are the best two people the system could spew onto our ballots.
Re: Boston vs. Miami, it worries me that the games have been so close and that when both teams play well, Boston seems to have the upper hand. It would be excruciating to see the Celts pull this series out after being dead in the water at halftime of game 5.
So unconsciously supporting a system that oppress people of a different race is racist? What about people who devote their time to other pursuits in life? Are they racist because they are not “anti-racist?” And labeling them racist has undertones: what is their punishment? Who decides, the angry mob?
man, dude’s 77 and still jumping on his bike for a ride…trump looks like he’s one big mac away from a heart attack, we need a person with a solid moral compass more than anything leading our country…
i mean, biden is a professional politician – he’ll do fine at the debates…hopefully he does “lose it” a bit during the debates, it’ll be entertaining…it’s really really really hard to imagine there’s a ton of “undecided” voters out there that will be influenced in either direction…
what’s interesting is that msnbc or cnn couldn’t field one single moderator…trump forces the situation to become personal…
i know joe bungled it a bit early on in the democratic primaries, but, looks like he’s on the good good stuff now…i do wonder what kind of cognitive enhancement supplements joe is taking…good for him, good for his team to recognize the need – if it’s even a thing (which it probably should be)…
i don’t know, i’m trying to stay off them news channels, and just waiting for my ballot to arrive, but my understanding is that yes, out of the some thirty-six thousand election precincts this election may very well come down to a couple of dozen of them…
i can only imagine how inundated those areas are with campaign marketing…choice, gun control, business/environmental regulations, healthcare – going forward it’ll be 6 to 3 in the supreme court…despite who gets elected, the cast is already being dyed…hmmmm, maybe 12 justices ain’t such a bad idea…
Biden is no further removed from his mental prime than Reagan was when he won re-election. He clearly has enough left in the tank to articulate a reasonable vision for his administration. He can talk to blue collar Obama voters who became Hillary haters. I mean, sure, he has his warts, but what Democrat didn’t? What Democrat would be further ahead than Biden at this point, given what has happened since the primary?
Despite his many grotesque character flaws and miserable administrative failures, Trump is a formidable candidate. He’s locked in at 42% no matter what he does or says. That Biden has largely kept him there shouldn’t be minimized.
huh…what happened to the “educated brown folk”…now they are the unconscious or can’t be bothered to get educated on certain topics brown folk..some might call that ignorant rather than unconcious…but whatever…this is like whack a mole…just default to the “I had no idea that was what they were about” fall back position…. and get back into your bunker…
although I had to take it twice, probability and statistics was probably the most useful math class I ever took – I barely even passed it the second time 🙂
although math is definitive, I always like percentages and being able to lazily generalize facts…
so, there’s like 150 million or so registered voters in the US…I’m guessing that number 42 represents the number of registered and not simple voter eligible (which I think is around 200 plus million)…so, 50% of 150 million is 75 million so 42% is about 60 some odd million…
at least 50% (probably more) are voting with trump just cuz he’s a republican, that leaves around 20 to 30 million people that legitimately share trump’s world views…scary shit…
No, I was responding to Raven saying “Supporting those things, consciously or unconsciously, is racism.” So I asked, unconsciously supporting the systems in the US is racist?
But: what does that have to do with “educated brown folk?” Are you talking about my family, that I noted before are Republican (again, I am not), and do not espouse any of the thinking you keep writing about. They aren’t the bad people you claim them to be. And a lot of what a conservative says does have merit. At least to listen to. You can’t seriously believe that all Democrats are right on everything, and all Republicans wrong on everything.
Geo, Z-Man, I hope you’re right- but a lot of what I see when Biden talks is a man who should be retiring. I hope I’m proven wrong in the debate. But Trump is a fucking asshole who will wipe the floor with anyone who can’t think of a quick comeback like back in 6th grade.
***Biden- he clearly has dementia***
What medical school did you go to where they taught you to diagnose patients that you haven’t examined and post it on the internet?
That worked for him the first time around, because a) Hillary and his Republican primary candidates were easy pickings, b) Trump didn’t have to defend his miserable record then, and c) Biden is attacking that very thing about Trump (his divisiveness via ad hominem attacks) and can just quote Trump’s former team members (Mattis, Kelly, etc.) who are now the equivalent of Biden surrogates, if not actually endorsing him. It is a perilous thing for Trump to do outside of his rallies, and won’t help him with swing voters.
Biden’s biggest concern is being viewed by undecided’s as an enabler of violence against police and business owners in cities. Attacks on his mental fitness won’t work, and may backfire.
I disagree with Z-Man re: the extent to which Trump is a symptom or cause of the current GOP (I think he is very much a symptom) but honestly I don’t have the energy for internecine left disputes at the moment and I say that as someone guilty of engaging in them regularly. If you’re voting out the Erdogan wannabe you’re fine in my book for the next 6 weeks.
I also agree with him quite strongly on the matter of upper west side liberals having views on school desegregation that basically echo the worst stereotypes of deep southerners, with the difference being their willingness to dress them up a bit more. So it’s a wash.
Terry’s growth is interesting. These kinds of late growth spurts are the kind of thing that have thrown off draft models in the past. I still wouldn’t take him 8th if Hayes, Haliburton, or Vassell are available but I would probably package 27 + 38 for him if possible. Coming away from this draft with one of those 3 and Terry would be a great outcome.
I wouldn’t worry much about taking two nominal PGs–I view Terry as more of a combo guard anyway and lord knows “too many intriguing, young point guards” is a problem we could afford to have.
I also remain obsessed with trying to figure out how we could snag Poku, and have warmed up to the idea of Isaiah Stewart with one of our later two picks.
I don’t think it takes a medical degree to conclude that Biden has lost something off his fastball to a degree that hints at some early stage stuff. But he’s certainly not an advanced dementia patient either. More importantly, I don’t think there’s a single voter that will pick Trump solely because he/she thinks Biden is mentally “shot”. That’s just red meat for Trump’s base.
That’s a good point and I’m not a neurologist so I honestly should not be evaluating and diagnosing people I haven’t met regardless. However, watching video, you can see there are a series of unmistakable verbal errors that just seem off. It may be early dementia, it may be stress and fatigue at age 78 trying to run for President, It could be from neurosurgery and has no impact on his cognitive ability, it could also be remnants of his stutter that are coming back up to haunt him. But challenging a Black reporter to a cocaine test, another to an IQ test and pushups, saying he is running for senate instead of presidency is not a good look. I’m mostly pissed because this is the best person the Democratic Party can churn out.
We probably agree here too, maybe I’m just not articulating what I’m trying to say very well. If you are saying that much of Trump’s base is racist beyond passive ignorance, and that the positions that led to his winning the 2016 primary in a landslide are proof of that, then we are in complete agreement. This most definitely applies to non-college educated white males (females too but probably to a lesser degree). But he did not get elected because he promoted racism. He got elected because he a) wasn’t Hillary, b) pandered to cultural conservatives on issues that mattered to them, e.g. guns, abortion, prayer in school, immigration, etc. You could argue that these things are all wrapped up together, but I think that the latent racism component is low on the list of what drove many of them to Trump. Let’s keep in mind that Obama was elected twice, and that Hillary lost largely due to the folks that voted for Obama but didn’t vote for her. It’s hard to make the case that latent racism was the reason that these voters switched.
Now Trump HAS been successful in making folks think about things like “law and order” in racist ways. At the same time, there is growing consensus in Republican ranks for accepting kneeling by athletes, abolishing Confederate flags at NASCAR events, and police reform of some kind. There are voters who are fine with these things who will STILL vote for Trump (or against Biden) for other reasons.
Last part is true because they don’t care (but nothing will get them to change their vote so it doesn’t matter. Most dems are racist, few are Racist. Basically all reps are racist, and lots are Racist. There’s an active/passive divide and since America is a fundamentally racist place that shit gets internalized. It’s why not being racist is work, and it’s more than just ignorance.
Maybe, but Biden has pretty much always done this same shit. Talks kinda folksy and kinda dumb, makes shit up and plagerizes, forgets things ect. He’s real old for the job though and that’s not good. But he’s a nice white man who’s not a Clinton and that’s what the media cares about.
Always been like that for most of those folks. “Law and Order” has always, for them, been about beating down the Other and if you have to break the law to do it that just proves their point.
Who said the thing about single issue voters? That’s spot on. It’s why Trump’s floor is so high. Sure there’s the crazies but the bulk of his support are people who only care about low taxes for the rich, or abortion, or making the US explicitly fundamentalist X-ian, ect.
@wetbandit, no one here stated that Dolan was racist or that we objected to him on those grounds, you injected that into the conversation.
I’m perfectly capable of morally objecting to Republicans on grounds other than racism.
As far as non-toxic conversation:
I’d love to trade 27 up for a shot at Terry. I would not draft Terry 8 because that seems like a waste when we can get him elsewhere. If nothing else trade down & pick up something else too (Poku?).
I’m still not sold on Terry as better than the next Jimmer Fredette, but if he’s real he could be a game changer.
I could get behind this team:
In a way, I think we are all saying the same thing but we disagree more on strict definitions, causes, motivations, impacts, remedies, etc.. Maybe George Carlin explained it best: “Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.”
Early bird- was responding to The Glass Half Rebuilt who conflated Republican and racist. I was also speaking to the notion that you can find out someone like Dolan is a Republican donor and then judge their character solely based on their political party.
Grocer – if that’s your take on the world you live in, that most people are evil human beings, I would venture to ask if (a) that’s a worthwhile and honest opinion, (b) it leads to more or less suffering in your life, and (c) if your perception of evil – much like your description of racist versus Racist – is that evil is on a spectrum too, and there is evil and Evil. In which case, sure, everyone’s got evil and good, but few are Evil or Good, so what’s the point of using such binary language
Terry played well in college and definitely seems like a smart, hardworking kid, but the league is only getting bigger and faster, and a 6’1″ guard (maybe he grew a bit? Frank supposedly grows an inch or two a year) will have a tough time unless they are a once-in-a-generation player (think CP3, Steph Curry.)
He could definitely become a SETH Curry, but is that a starting point guard? I’d rather swing and risk missing on LaMelo or else grab a long/tall, sweet-shooting wing.
Where all the Daniel Jones stans at
People compare Terry to Trae but they are very different. Trae is potentially an all-time great passer, Terry is average at best for a PG. But the dude can shoot!
Is it possible that Jimmy donated money to a Greek/American politician as a sneaky pitch to the Greek Freak ?
If i see a Nia Vardalos or JAnniston hire on MSG crew i ll be fully convinced about his genious!
Just saw a guy wearing a shirt that said “I Have a Dream” with a picture of the Capitol Building with a confederate flag above it. Because it did not use a racial slur, I’m sure Wetbandit will say “nuh uh not racist.”
That’s a little harsh…
I know, I said I wouldn’t, but the game’s not on yet and I’ve been struggling to convince myself to like Miami to the point of rooting for them (as compared to just rooting against the Celtics, which feels half-baked):
Z-man’s done a great job clarifying his comments, but I want to use one earlier statement of his to respond to Wetbandit’s latest: “unless you apply the same standard to Democrats.” Yes. I’m a white male Dem who’s worked on the periphery of (and sometimes deeply in) social justice issues internationally and I’m fine with being considered racist. Why? Two reasons: first, white privilege. I’ve probably been stopped 20-25 times by the police (busy youth), and I’ve had a couple of speeding tickets and a seat belt violation out of it. I’ve worked overseas for decades and used my white privilege as a shield, which has probably also kept me alive in a few situations. I’ve earned what I’ve gotten, but I know I started on second base just by the color of my skin (and gender), and barely had to slide while rounding the remaining bases.
Second, considering myself racist (recognizing my racism) helps me reconsider everything I used to think when I used to willfully ignore how the world really worked. I really appreciate that the current national conversation has forced me to acknowledge this (which I’ve always known, even as I proudly lied about my liberal bona fides).
And finally, white fragility, a term that makes me smile except it’s not really funny if you’re on the other side of it. It’s really, really hard to admit you’re a part of the problem. Especially when that problem lets you start on second base (gives you a lifetime of power that others don’t have). I see it a bit like being an alcoholic. You can’t stop being an alcoholic until you admit you are one. And in fact you can never really stop being an alcoholic once you are one. You can just be recovering. And if you’re not working at recovering, you’re probably drinking…
***I don’t think it takes a medical degree to conclude that Biden has lost something off his fastball to a degree that hints at some early stage stuff. But he’s certainly not an advanced dementia patient either… That’s just red meat for Trump’s base.***
Yeah, exactly. Which is why I thought it was weird that wetbandit, a doctor and a democrat, would repeat it as if it was fact.
When Watergate era Senator Biden said “I don’t think a woman has the right to say what should happen to her body”, did he have early onset dementia? When Reagan Era Biden said, in trumpian fashion, “I probably have a much higher IQ than you”, was he in cognitive decline? When 2006 Biden told a guy in a wheel chair to “stand up and let ‘em see you”, was he already senile? This guy has a long history of saying things that “polished politicos” shouldn’t say. But, now that he looks old and it can be armchair attributed to age, all 50 years of his so-called gaffes are retroactively diagnosed as dementia and cognitive decline? That’s like saying that 31 year old Jason Kidd was over the hill because he shot a TS% of .506 that year while ignoring that his career average before that year was .507 (then watching him play another 8 years, make 4 all star teams, and win a championship).
Could this NYT Tax stuff be the November surprise?
PS I wouldn’t be surprised if the “source” is Michael Cohen. Makes sense that he would wait until it would do the most damage.
wetbandit- Yes, and yes. Mostly irrelevant, recognizing the world for what it is (or not) doesn’t change how the world is, but I prefer truth to contorting myself justifying evil. Obviously it’s a spectrum, western duality thought needs to go die in a fire. I dunno, what’s the point of morality? Of ethics? Somethings are worse than others, that doesn’t make any of them good.
Z-man, I’m not sure it’s just definitions. I suspect some folks who have their hearts in the right place are also engaging in willful blindness.
Time for basketball!
To be fair, Biden is a lot further down the road than 31yo Kidd….but yeah.
God i miss “O Canada”
Damn you Raptors!
I miss the Nuggies already.
Mitch should study Bam’s game first.
AD is the next far step.
the older i get the more familiar paths i seem to like to follow, occasionally though i stumble on something old or new that’ll grab my attention – in this case: pictures of you by the cure…i got a buddy that likes them a bunch, never really paid much attention to them…this just happened to pop up on youtube cuz of some other stuff i was listening to…it’s stuck with me now…
just because i know – there is pretty much nothing musically which you all are not tuned in to – just wondering suggestions for favorite tunes by this band…
oh yeah, i’m totally okay with rooting for the heat, i like spoelstra, i think he’s a really good coach, i like riley, that i can remember – he’s always had style, and, he had/has an intense grace about himself…their roster rocks…i’m completely jealous…i don’t know much about the owner, i’m thinking that’s a good thing…
Geo…you can’t go wrong with the Cure…that song is off of Disintegration…very good album…I think the one before it is Kiss Me, Kiss Me, Kiss Me…that is my favorite…Head on the Door preceded that..it was kind of when they were peaking…if all else fails …go for a Greatest Hits album…
Check these ones:
Boys don’t cry
One Hundred Years
Friday I’m in love
and go to the GrHits as pepper recommended
good to see dragic playing well, he had seemed to fall off the map there for awhile…last i remember crowder looking this effective was with boston…this is his sixth team in his 10th year…
i like how no one has a penchant for dominating the ball on offense, they cut, set screens and pass, defense – they don’t just slap and swipe at the ball…the more i watch him the more impressed i am with bam…him alone could give a franchise some hope…toss in nunn, herro and robinson…it’s unfair…
greatest hits it is – thanks 🙂
i remember now a few of the songs KYN mentions…they have a sort of sanatorium type vibe, very peaceful, clean…not too melancholic…okay, maybe a just a tad too wistful…it’s like a warm blanket on your mind…
bye bye boy wonder…
It appears i wrote Iggy off a little early…
Quite a quarter for the Heat.
Miami and Los Angeles should be a short series. The Heat don’t have an answer for AD and the Lakers have more than enough beef to contest with Bam. LAL in 5.
Also, upthread I made comments about Dolan, Republicans, and racist remarks. My point wasn’t that all Republicans are racist (but I would argue they all exist in a world that benefits directly from racist policy), but that if you give Dolan enough time in the public he’ll probably end up saying something to piss off a large group of people. Whether it be a racist comment, sexist, xenophobic, homophobic etc, it would eventually push him to sell and that’s all I was getting at.
is 24 points on 26 shots good? Asking for a friend.
Boston is in a bad way right now. They have to max Tatum and Hayward is going to opt in. So they will be spending $100mill plus on a core of Tatum, Brown, Kemba and Smart, and the cap is contracting. Even if they ditch Hayward, they don’t have much cap room. Their recent draft picks are not looking like future stars (Langford, Semi, the Williams’s, etc.). They have 3 picks in the first round this year’s shitty draft, and after that the cupboard is bare.
Five years ago it looked like a dynasty was surely forming in Beantown. Not so much any more. Maybe they still get to the finals in the shitty east, but can’t imagine them beating any of the good teams out west. Miami and Toronto aren’t going anywhere. Milwaukee has some maneuvering to do to make Giannis happy, but they might get better. Their best bet is to package Hayward with some young players and draft picks and go after a win-now guy or two. Not sure what they can do beyond that. In particular, Kemba is going to wind up being an albatross for them.
No, but he had 7 rebounds, 11 assists, 2 steals and a block, so not a bad overall game. If you want to blame the loss on anyone, look at Kemba, Hayward and Theis.
Man am I enjoying reading the game thread on Celtics Blog. Shockingly, they are incredibly down on Brad. Stevens may have gotten out-coached, but i don’t think if you switch coaches Miami loses.
The Knicks could use Hayward. I’m not sure what we could give them in return. Maybe Randle and Portis?
If we took Hayward, we’d better get a pick. Don’t see a good reason to help out the Celts for 1 year of an overpaid Hayward. If we can cobble together a decent team (unlikely), then we might be able to sign him to a reasonable deal next year as a UFA.
If you really hate Randle that much you can do it, but the move wouldn’t benefit our timeline at all.
Unrelated, but the story the other day about the Knicks not wanting Jimmy Butler was the biggest non-story I’ve seen (but didn’t read) in a long time. I don’t see any world in which Butler goes to the Knicks and the Knicks weren’t signing anyone to anything except 1&1’s.
Hayward can shoot at least and is a heady player, but yeah, I wouldn’t take him on without significant sweetener. I also don’t know why Boston would want Randle, he does nothing for them.
I just picked Randle to match salary and because I don’t think he helps us much. I’m not sure why the Celtics would want him. And yes, I’d like to get a sweetener for taking on Hayward’s contract.
It sure seems that way, but I wouldn’t be shocked if Spo pulls a rabbit out of his ass here.
But yeah, in general, the Lakers are a terrrrrrrrrrrible matchup for Miami.
I’ve been pro tanking as anyone here but maybe it’s time to go back to the drawing board?
Miami’s top 7 minute getters yesterday, by our definitions:
1. #14 in the draft (Bam)
2. Oldish Star (Butler)
3. Undrafted (Robinson)
4. Veteran Leadership (Crowder)
5. Old ex Star (Dragic)
6. #13 in the draft (Herro)
7. Veteran Leadership (Iggy)
None of these players were obtained with a high lottery pick as a result of sucking, or tanking. Riley executed the old fashioned idea of team building to perfection. PJ tried to do the same and failed miserably with comically bad decisions, but it would be difficult to fault the plan. Certainly not without looking at the past 20 or so year history and comparing this system’s success to tanking success.
And I’m not even talking about LA, with their all-in on the biggest stars approach.
The only time that the Knicks were even close to the same win curve as Miami was right when Jackson took over, and most of us were fine with Jackson trying to do a similar approach as Riley that year. Jackson then did a terrible job, the team had its worst season ever and tanking was the only way out from there. Only he didn’t do that, just compounding his failures.
Miami’s worst season in the last six years was five wins better than the Knicks’ best team in that same span, and that worst Miami team had Chris Bosh, Goran Dragic and Hassan Whiteside on it. In other words, some actual NBA talent. If the Knicks were in a similar situation as the 2014-15 Miami Heat, I’d be fine with saying, “Sure, let’s try to rebuild in a similar fashion.”
Heck, just look at last year’s Heat team. They won 39 games. Adding Jimmy Butler to that is a lot different than adding Jimmy Butler to a team with 17 wins (or even 29 wins). It’s just apples and oranges.
He had Bosh, Dragic and Whiteside because he specifically did not believe in tanking, and instead followed a plan to stay competitive – at the price of loosing lottery odds – and build on those mediocre teams. This blog, including myself, would have traded them for draft picks asap and a chance for a top lottery position. It’s a fair question to ask if we were short sighted.
I personally don’t care if we tank or not as long as we don’t trade draft picks and consistently draft well. At 8 any of Tyrell Terry, Aaron Nesmith, Aleksej Pokusevski, and Devin Vassell should be available for us and all of those guys appear to have a good shot at being good NBA players. Drafting 8th in 2017 wasn’t the mistake; taking Frank over Donovan Mitchell, Bam Adebayo, John Collins, and OG Anunoby was. Drafting 9th in 2018 wasn’t the problem; taking Knox over SGA and Mikal Bridges was the problem. Miami did well to draft Bam and Herro as well as adding Kendrick Nunn and Duncan Robinson off the scrap heap. You can’t build a sustainable product in sports without drafting and developing well, but you do not need to tank in order to draft and develop.
I’ve been saying for ages that there’s lots of ways to build a team without abject tanking. Talent evaluation both in drafting and other transactions, as well as prudent cap management, are far more important. As Jowles always points out, the tanking teams usually have bad management and poor talent evaluators anyway. GS is an exception this year, but their situation is pretty unique.
Tanking is for Losers
Knicks are Winners
This is turning into the how many things can we be wrong about today blog. lmao
The Lakers are a very tough matchup for almost everyone in the NBA in the small ball era, but Miami appears to be in an especially tough spot. If it wasn’t Riley and Spo, I’d give Miami no chance at all, but they are such basketball geniuses, they’ll probably get creative and come up something mere mortals can’t think of now and at least make themselves competitive by playing hard and smart,
The reason small ball is successful much of the time is that most traditional big men are slower, can’t guard the perimeter as well, and if you can drag them away rim on defense it takes away some of the rim protection and gives you a better chance of offensive rebounds.
The flip side of that is that “some” big men can dominate the boards and inside paint on offense.
These days there are very few big men that are good enough around the rim to totally dominate inside and more than offset the disadvantages. Many Cs today give you 10-15 points and 10-12 rebounds. They have little to no post game, have nothing to offer if you can take away the roll and lob, can’t put the ball on the floor etc.. So the smaller quicker teams have the advantage most nights, especially in the REGULAR season.
The Lakers are very big and very good inside.
Trump issued personal guarantees in the 80’s and would have been a toll booth operator if banks hadn’t rescued him. And here we are today and it appears Trump did the same thing again and is on the verge of personal bankruptcy in the next 4 years. The irony of it all: this perceived “great” businessman could have just invested the 200m (according to Forbes) he got from his father in an index fund and he’d have done waaaaay better.
Biden should draw the analogy to the economy. Trump racked up a $1 trillion dollar deficit in the year ending 2019 (before the pandemic). Clinton ran surpluses. The MO of Reagan, George W Bush, and Trump: juice the economy with huge tax cuts but at the price of huge expansion of debt. At some stage you have to pay the piper – and that means cuts to Medicare and other popular programs because R’s won’t touch defense spending or raise taxes.
No matter what happens in the finals Miami fans should be very happy.
Two years ago everyone was saying they were in a horrible position, Riley was over the hill because he made a couple of bad signings, and Miami was one the last teams they’d change places with.
Now they are in the finals and have an excellent mix of veterans and youth so they can be competitive now and still have a good young core for the future.
Riley knows what the FUCK he’s doing. He just kept trying to get better by accumulating the right kind of young and veteran players that fit together well. Time quickly heals the inevitable trade and FA signing mistakes you make as you are rebuilding over a few years. If you understand basketball, get high IQ players willing to play team basketball on offense and hard on defense, you’ll put together a good enough team to attract players in trades and free agency. Then good opportunities and good things will happen.
Boston is also obviously in a very good spot, but Ainge has one weakness Riley does not. Ainge is looking to steal on every deal. Sometimes you have to make a tough deal or a deal you really don’t want to make.
It was obvious from the start of the season they needed to get better at C to be ready to win it all. Instead of giving up some picks and putting himself in a position to win a championship this season, he wasted time signing Kanter and playing an overmatched Theis. He has to learn to pull the trigger.
>>> Where all the Daniel Jones stans at <<<
I'm sure I got carried away a few times last year, but overall I'm confident in my assessment of Jones, which was:
1. He probably would have been a second round pick and Gettelman should have been fired for taking him at 6 ahead of Josh Allen.
2. He is every bit as good (or bad) a prospect as the vastly overrated QB we got destroyed for passing up in 2018, Sam Darnold.
Gettelman's O-Line pick this year isn't off to a great start, either. Thankfully it's highly unlikley he'll be around to blow another pick. (Side note: There was probably some pychological connection between Bob's unyielding defenses of Trump and Gettelman, two very similar executives who are both obviously bad at their jobs.)
Lakers are probably taking this series and it could even be a short one.
That being said, people have been doubting The Heat all playoffs. People dismissed them taking down The Bucks as Giannis and The Bucks are chokers. Ignoring the fact that The Bucks had the best record in the NBA this year.
Also, I don’t think the top half of the East is that much weaker than the top half of the West. I think the bottom half of the East (5 through 8) is weaker but I think the East and West a little more even than they were 3 or 4 years ago. You’re talking The Bucks, Heat, Celtics and Raptors vs. The Lakers, Nuggets, Clippers and Rockets. I don’t think there is that much of a difference there.
The Heat could pull this thing out and I wouldn’t be surprised. They don’t get down on themselves at all. They’ve got a great team. Bam has to step up against AD and Butler has to step up against Lebron but I think the Heat role players are better than The Lakers. We shall see. I’m genuinely excited for it and hope hte Heat can pull it out.
Also, we know this is the end of hte world when Knicks fans are rooting for The Heat.
Watch this video of Graham needing money: https://www.facebook.com/thelincolnproject.us/videos/save-lindsey/762638274301082/
Some organization should do a similar one about Trump needing funds to avoid personal bankruptcy.
“We need our strong smart leader to be focused on the economy and not be worrying about losing all of his money because of a few poor decisions. Hasn’t this poor man suffered enough? He went through the very same thing 30 years ago when he also almost lost all of his money. Through the kindness of the banks he survived. Won’t you be so kind and donate?”
I predict it would go viral and it his on his perceived strength that he’s a great businessperson.
There goes strat again, mixing the painfully obvious with the laughably stupid.
***that worst Miami team had Chris Bosh, Goran Dragic and Hassan Whiteside on it.***
Bosh’s contract was an epic 8 year disaster for them (they are paying him through 2022), but it came off the salary cap, unlike the 8 year contract disaster that Jackson gave to Noah. That’s typical Riley: turning a win on the margin into a win in the finals.
I think the Lakers are deserved favorites but I think it’s closer than some people are making it out. In particular, I’m interested to see how the Lakers handle the Miami zone. They’re not a particularly good half-court offense and they have a lot of inconsistent jump shooters. So I see it being a series where feedback cycles are really important. If Miami can score the ball to keep the Lakers out of transition and get the zone set up I think that could be a real issue for the Lakers. The Lakers are a really good defensive team though and have good matchups to throw at all the most important Miami guys. If they get stops and can get in transition they force Miami out of the zone and that could be critical. I do think Miami has a lot of defensive talent though and will find enough ways to make it hard for LA to score to make a very competitive series.
Lebron’s jumper is (as usual) a giant swing factor. He looked really lacking in confidence in it through most of the Denver series until the stretch run of Game 5; of everyone in the league I’d expect Spo and Riley to have the most success figuring out ways to junk up the game and force him to beat them with it.
Yeah if Miami’s best chance against the Lakers is the zone defense there is no way that series lasts longer than five games. Smoke and mirrors won’t be enough against Anthony Davis and LeBron James.
Lakers:Heat :: Lakers:Pistons
Lakers: Kobe/Shaq ….. Bron, Davis
Heat/Pistons: No tier 1 star, excellent defense
That is an interesting comparison but I don’t think AD/Lebron hate each other the way Kobe and Shaq did by then. That team had a lot of issues going on in the locker room that I think led to them not being able to step up in the finals when they faced a team that was in total unity.
Miami also has potentially the advantage from 3 point land, which is enough to swing a series if they can get hot. Lakers are a force inside but more shaky with the outside shooting.
It’s funny how a lot of armchair GMs for other teams are currently using the Knicks in a lot of mock trades that utilize their cap space (i.e. the Knicks take on Wiggins’ contract and get the #13 pick back in a 3-team trade.)
It makes me wonder what the best return might be for renting out that space — a top-10 pick? Maybe even a good 2021 pick? Multiple picks? I guess it depends on how cash poor a team is or if their title window is closing.
“i don’t think if you switch coaches Miami loses.“
Did you watch the series? Boston choked away at least two games and lost the series when they straight up panicked in the fourth quarter of game six. I’m not sure there was a single minute when Boston didn’t have the most overall talent on the court.
Stevens is obviously a good coach but it was really clear in the series that Miami played with far more consistent effort and focus than Boston and at least some of the blame for that falls on Stevens.
We take Whiteside 27m into our cap for one year and swap pick #27 and #16.
> Draft Kira at 8
> Offer RJ to any team after that for their pick if Nesmith on board
> Trade-up to snag Poku (eg Portland deal)
> Sign Christian Wood
> Do NOT pick up Knox’s option
> Do NOT take CP3 even if OKC gives him to us for nothing
> Play young guys and maximize odds of high pick in 2021 draft and difference maker at wing
this Lakers team was better in the regular season than the Lakers team that lost to the Pistons.
Kobe and Shaq had one of the most dysfunctional star relationships on record. Kobe also raped a teenager in a hotel. Karl Malone also said an unforgettably nasty thing to Kobe’s wife in the locker room. There is absolutely no comparison between these two Lakers teams regarding locker-room culture. It’s purely a team composition analogy.
Underestimate the importance of the zone at your own risk I think. The #1 staple of Lebron’s offense these last few years (originating in all the battles vs Curry) is calling up whoever is being guarded by the most exploitable defender on the other team to set a pick for him and either getting downhill or getting the switch and then going to work 1 on 1. Dragic, Herro, Robinson – these are extremely exploitable matchups for Lebron but the zone allows Miami to park those guys in the corner and keep them completely uninvolved in any primary actions all of which are funneled to the excellent defenders they have at the top and in the middle. Lebron obviously will find a way to adapt – nothing you’re going to do is about shutting him down, just making it hard for him – but I think it’s going to be a big factor in the series. We will see.
AD on the other hand I agree should be able to eat against the zone.
This is where your entire (typically weak) argument falls apart. Jimmy Butler is clearly the most talented player in the series, Dragic is arguably a better two-way player than Kemba, and Bam is light years better than Theis. Then it comes down to Tatum/Brown/Smart/Hayward a scrub vs. Crowder/Iggy/Herro/Robinson, where the Celtics have a an edge on paper but hardly to the point where any combo would give them the most overall talent on the court at any given time.
The big difference that transcended coaching was Bam totally dominating his position against whoever the Celts put out there. No coach could change that without freeing up 3’s from Robinson and Herro or drives from Butler and Dragic. It could be argued that the entire series came down to Butler hitting that 3 at the end of regulation in game 1. That wasn’t about coaching, it was about a great player making a tough shot on a broken play. But the consistent difference was Bam.
“when you’ve seen it all, you’ll swear there’s never been anything like it”
i’ve seen the film at some point in the past, other than the fact that frank sinatra was in it, i can’t remember much…
i thought the reboot from 2004 was really interesting, first time i really remember being aware of liev schreiber…absolutely loved the first few seasons of homeland…
happy mole day daddie donnie…and yes, fact can most definitely get stranger than fiction…
Yeah Miami is really talented. Butler is fantastic. A top 15 player. Bam is an all-star. Dragic is a great PG, always been underrated and he carried Miami for stretches in this series. Herro is an all-star in the making. Robinson is one dimensional but he’s like Novak with passable team defense. Don’t forget Crowder and Iggy, who are both really good on defense. Iggy is obviously past his prime at this point but can still provide a solid 15 a game for you and Crowder is pretty damn good. If both of them are hitting open 3’s like they were yesterday, Miami is damn near unbeatable.
Boston has a deep team. They’re good. But I don’t think its really fair to say they have more talent than Miami. I don’t know why people are underestimating Miami at this point. They beat The Bucks in 5 games.
Remember when Jayson Tatum had a month long stretch in which he hit off the dribble 3s at a ridiculously high clip and every lamestream media journalist in the country started saying he was a superstar? Fake news!
I mean Tatum may not have been quite ready to be the best player on a championship team but he averaged 26/10/5 in the playoffs on 56% TS and 28% USG while also being a very good defensive player. Advanced stats for the playoffs 20.8 PER ; .163 WS/48; and +6.3BPM. Oh yeah, he’s also 22 years old.
I mean did some members of the media get a little out over their skis? Sure. I would think thought that the group of Tatum doubters (myself very much included when they drafted him) would be licking their wounds badly after this season not crowing about how clever they are. He took an absolutely massive step forward this year, and did I mention that he’s 22?
DRed wants soooooo badly to be right on Tatum….
Tatum is a damn good bet right now even at the Bird max. The Celtics just need to put a couple more value contracts around him in the draft. Defenders and shooters. It’s annoying how set up for title runs they are right now.
The original Manchurian Candidate was released in the days of “Better dead, than red”, “Kill a Commie for your Mommy”, Soviet missiles 90 miles off our shores, and kids (me) being herded to school basements to survive a nuclear attack. It was a unique point in threats to the US and made the movie current with the times. Angela Lansbury was stellar in her role.
However, nothing compares to our situation today. It is unparalleled.
Their main problem is that they will be capped out on their core 4 and are pretty much out of surplus draft assets.
No one has ever said tanking is the only way to build a contender. You evaluate your place on the win curve and decide accordingly.
The post Phil Jackson Knicks were one of the most talentless, asset barren disasters in the NBA. They were truly unique in their lack of both future assets and contemporaneous production. This is why people wanted/want them to go into asset maximization mode, not because people think it’s the only way a team can ever possibly be good.
Now, is it fair to say a lot of us, myself included, would’ve come to the same conclusion about the Heat fairly recently? Sure, though as BC went over it’s not a great comparison. Even as dire as things looked for the Heat, they were much closer to contention than we’ve been in…a while.
More broadly though, I am not ashamed to say I would generally not recommend the path followed by the Heat. Riley deserves tons of credit for pulling it off, but it involved tons of characteristically good fortune. I mean, if Philadelphia doesn’t recklessly decide to hemorrhage a top-10 player we’re not having this conversation.
Everything had to go perfectly for them and it did. Good for them, but equating that with it being a genuinely sound, repeatable strategy is silly and ignores all of the specific details of how this Heat team came together.
Tatum is Paul Pierce: The Sequel. He’s probably worth a max deal but I doubt he’ll outperform the deal the way the very top guys do. I just don’t see enough in the way of court vision, handle and athleticism for him to make the jump to true superstar level play. A team with Tatum as it’s best player MIGHT when a chip if they’re really deep (like Jimmy Butler and the Heat this year) but if the C’s core is Brown and Tatum I see lots of conference finals and maybe a finals appearance or two but rings? Doubtful.
DRed’s passionate hatred for all things Celtic is an inspiration.
Y’all are talking about Tatum all logical and shit. DRed’s just gleeful when he fails.
Bam was definitely the difference maker on the court.
Also except of the high octane bball chess between the coaches there was a parallel psychology battle in which Spoelstra clearly won.
I truly believe that w/o Rondo/Howard Denver may have sent Lakers home. Team’ s character has a lot to do with the coach but also with team’s most experienced players and their grit.
Tatum/Brown looks like the best driving wing combo in the league right now.
If they continue working hard and improving their game they will be Boston’s big dogs of the ’20s. Good hearted-Hayward and Hobbit-Kemba look expendable right now.
ol’ miss murder she wrote was pretty hot at the time, her old pics look a lot like bernadette peters…
i first left home to join up with uncle sam’s green machine in 1980…one cadence song that used to provide an abundance of vitriolic passion:
we’re gonna rape, kill, pillage and burn, we’re gonna rape kill pillage and burn – and eat babies…you would really belt out the whole: eat babies part…
killing commies for mommy, sounds very 1950ish…
not so surprisingly – turns out a lot of family members living on post didn’t appreciate getting serenaded by that kind of stuff while they were getting their kids up for school and eating breakfast…hmmmm, go figure, people are just so sensitive…
in all seriousness though, old ronnie came in and cleaned up a lot of stuff and made a concerted effort to up the level of professionalism within the armed forces…
he’s got codes and keys, and, he couldn’t even dream of getting a confidential clearance…that is most definitely no muy bueno…fuck you my 50 plus million fellow americans whom are about to vote for this douche…
Tatum is a very good young player. If he’s one of the best players in the NBA in a year or three I won’t be surprised. I’ve been right about Tatum the whole dang time!
Imo Tanking is good ONLY in these situations:
1 a generational talent is on the draft
2 your big dogs go Out for the season
3 you’re clueless in bball
In fact, I think it’s insanely stupid to tank with a specific player in mind. This was true even before the lottery reforms, and is more true now.
You tank for an incredibly simple reason: having a higher pick helps you, marginal wins do not.
Until you can get your team to the point where wins are no longer marginal (i.e. wins are being produced primarily by players you have under reasonable contracts for a while), this basic calculation doesn’t change.
We’re back to the tanking argument. An argument as old as time!
This finals is fascinating because you have The Heat, an anti-tanking team that has made the finals and The Lakers, a team that isn’t really built like a modern NBA team. (ie, they’re big and can rebound and don’t have a ton of shooters).
Thinking about philly and the process and how Butler didn’t want to stay with a team with tons of young talent and a supposed big window in front of them. Maybe the point isn’t whether tanking is good or bad but that tanking by itself isn;t enough if you don’t have a good coach/culture to build on the talent you bring in.
And so it gets back to the chicken/egg argument about how bad organizations are going to constantly tank because even if they draft lottery picks year after year they can’t build on it.
The Spurs were able to capitalize on one year of tanking with Duncan but they were an incredibly well run organization even in the 90s and just had a down year with Robinson being hurt. Maybe they don’t go on to win a bunch of titles with Duncan but they still would have been really good cause they probably still find Parker/Ginobli, Kawhi, etc.
“In fact, I think it’s insanely stupid to tank with a specific player in mind.”
Yeah! Why go after Zion or Lebron or Shaq when you can go after the hidden gems of each draft?
Jimmy Butler is probably one of the more difficult match-ups in the NBA for Lebron. I wouldn’t write MIA off just yet. If Butler can contain LBJ & the Lakers retreads can’t step up, then AD won’t be able to carry the series for them.
Also, I agree that Angela Lansbury was fantastic in Manchurian Candidate. Fun Fact: Lansbury was only 3 years older than the guy who played her son in the movie.
It makes sense to continue tanking until your young players are capable of winning too many games for the tank to be viable, the Knicks have yet to hit that point.
I like RJ Barrett and think he will turn into a good player but The Knicks tanked the shit out of last season and ended up with RJ instead of Zion or JA.
And Zion might end up being a bust if he can’t stay healthy.
So yeah, intentionally tanking for a specific player is probably a bad idea.
“So yeah, intentionally tanking for a specific player is probably a bad idea.”
While tanking for no specific player is a good one i suppose.
note to new york knickerbocker front office: stop making sense…we are waaaay too good at tanking already…let’s try the unconventional approach of drafting “well”, wherever that position might be, acquiring and developing talent, and organizational stability…
we tried everything else, let’s try some crazy shit like that…
Yep. Win curve, win curve, win curve.
The Knicks have been on the bad side of the win curve for quite some time now, and yet they’ve only tried to actively tank once. And it got them a possibly really good player. So they promptly said, “Well, we’re never doing that again.”
We tried actual, intentional tanking for 1 year & got RJ Barrett. The rest of the time we tried to be good but just happened to end up sucking at basketball. Those years we sucked at basketball, but didn’t suck enough to get a top pick.
Also, you’re doing tanking wrong if you can’t draft well with your top pick.
Wow. Doc Rivers is OUT as Clippers coach.
Doc Rivers out
Rivers out in LA.
Really curious about their next coach. Lue is a natural candidate, for sure.
Doc instead of Thibs wouldn’t be bad right now but this year’s Doc’s performance was disappointing so…
Still Go Go Thibs ! for me
Tanking is a difficult term to define. A team can just be bad and simply be stanking or the front office can move out veteran players to give their young guys floor time. Given that the Knicks closed out the season starting Payton, RJ, Harkless, Randle, and Taj, it is surely not indicative of the tank mode.
It’s actually difficult to conceive why Rose didn’t intervene to get some of the young talent more action and improve the draft spot. But then again, it’s the Knicks.
That’s shocking about Doc. Yeah, Lue makes a lot of sense there.
Although, imagine D’Antoni there…
I’m pissed on behalf of Doc. Did he have a bad series against Denver? Sure, but come the fuck on, it’s fucking Doc! They guy’s clearly a top level coach.
Wowsers..I might actually get one right! Lue in LA, Doc in Philly. I’d imagine they’d jump at the chance to hire Doc. It would be hilarious if Doc fools everyone and goes to OKC lol
I thought Doc did a pretty bad job with this Clippers team but his track record overall is very good and I think it will be pretty difficult to hire someone better, particularly given that they’re likely to want to be risk-averse in the hire with an obvious need to win right away. Ty Lue seems like the obvious choice but I’d certainly rate that as a downgrade (although I think Lue is perfectly fine). D’Antoni would be the other interesting choice but it sounds like he’s going to the Sixers and he’s a slightly awkward fit for a team where the two stars aren’t really playmakers.
Seems to me like the classic case of feeling like you need to change something, only it’s really hard to change the core players much so you end up firing the coach more because it’s the only card you have to play than because it’s the right one.
Going from 22 to 26 (or whatever) wins from riding mediocre veterans does nothing for you long term, while improving your draft position can give you meaningful upside if you’re not completely incompetent at talent evaluation.
I’m always confused why people seem to argue that lower draft picks and pointless marginal wins are better than higher picks because of your Jimmy Butlers and Nikola Jokics of the world being picked late in the draft. Those players were available earlier; there’s nothing set in stone decreeing that they could only be picked late in the first round or in the second round or whatever. Having a better pick gives you more options to choose from, increasing the likelihood that you come away from the draft with something useful, similar to how having multiple picks in a draft increased your likelihood of hitting on a pick by giving you more bites at the apple. It’s not complicated.
His teams have consistently underachieved in the playoffs. From everything that I read after they were eliminated, his job was safe because he supposedly was one of the reasons Kawhi went to the Clippers, not much beyond that. Kawhi was probably consulted about this move and gave the green light.
No one prefers lower draft picks via marginal pointless wins when your team sucks.
Otoh smart and good teams don’t give a shit about that.
They prefer to remain competitive to attract big dogs instead of sucking for years to try and hit the draft jack pot.
“It’s not complicated.“
It’s not. There’s no real evidence that relying on tanking is a superior strategy than any other when it comes to rebuilding and winning. That’s the point.
Does anyone think the Knicks with the same ownership and management would really have been more successful if they just tanked harder?
howdy bo, i hope all is well for you sir…maybe not now cuz we’re hot on basketball and doc getting canned, but, at some point down the line i’d really like to hear more of your thoughts on “legacy” skills within the educational process…
Yup. Every player picked ahead of Frank in 2017 (other than J. Jackson) has been better than him, and by a large margin in many cases. Same goes for Knox in 2018, every player other than maybe Sexton has been way better than him. If the Knicks tanked harder in those 2 seasons it is highly likely they would have more talent on the team than they currently do. And that’s factorial.
Holy shit. Have we not covered this a thousand times?
If you draft good players with your tanked picks, it is literally impossible to keep tanking. You cannot do it. You cannot have Durant, Westbrook and Harden on rookie contracts and remain in the lottery. You cannot have Simmons and Embiid and get a top-5 pick. You cannot have Tatum and Brown and hope to land Zion or Doncic.
Tanking most often fails because the same clueless GMs who land in the high lottery are the same ones who can’t spot a superstar when they have the first right of refusal. See: Vlade Divac! He didn’t fail because of poor culture or lack of talent due to years of intentional tanking — he failed because he got to see the same Luka Doncic we did… and he passed on having him for ten years!
This is so simple. Why are we still talking about it?
I think you might want to flip that script around.
The two most vital Heat players are going to have to match up with LeBron and AD. Good luck to Butler and Bam.
Right of first refusal*
Tanking and Frank “battles” are like “The Godfather”
They never get old!
A little surprised but not shocked about Doc. For a team expected to challenge for the title losing in the second round to a team that got fairly soundly beaten in the conference finals is a major disappointment. Add that to a string of disappointing finishes since he’s been in L.A. and yeah, not shocking that he was let go. That said, does Lue offer anything that Doc doesn’t? D’A does but they’ve got nobody to really run his offense and it comes at a cost on the other end anyway. The fact they there’s no clearly superior option out there (and you’d think they’d absolutely want someone with head coaching experience) does make it a little more surprising.
It’ll be interesting to hear how much George and Kawhi had to do with it.
hmmmm, i wonder if that means tyronne lue is taking over…
Is it possible that if we have tanked harder in 2017 and 2018 and have gotten higher picks we would had picked Frank and Knox again but higher ?
Imagine getting Knox at 3 instead of Luka?
Or pick other players that would suck such as Frank and Knox while Frank and Knox would blossom in other teams ?
Could Doc really take the Pellies gig? That doesn’t seem to fit him, really. The Sixers job seems more like a Doc place.
yeah, the sixers do seem like a really good match for doc…
I’ve always thought of Rivers as a decent coach, but I don’t think he’s a great one and, thinking about it, I find I agree with his being fired. His team just didn’t gel as a team this season, and, as noted in some posts here, when the situation got difficult, they resorted to a lot of iso ball. Contrast that to Denver, Houston or Miami, who were clearly playing team ball in the playoffs. It’s the coaches key job to make a team play as a team and he wasn’t good at it. I would also add that maybe his record in Boston is overrated because he had Garnett to get the team to play together.
That said, I don’t know who they should hire. I’m not sure their lineup fits D’Antoni, but it’s probably a better fit for him than Philly.
The ESPN article notes there are six coaching vacancies in the league plus three vacancies that have already been filled. That is nine total or 30% of the league. It’s a bad year for coaches in the league. Rose probably did the right thing by hiring Thibs before there were this many vacancies.
If I were Doc, I’d strongly consider the Thunder.
Thunder, Sixers, Pelicans, Clippers. You really couldn’t be a looking-for-work head coach at a better time.
as they currently sit, definitely yes, but – who knows what they’ll look like next year…
i think the pelicans should go with a younger coach…someone’s assistant, college or maybe g-league…
Well Paul George and Kawhi Leonard (.381 and .383 3pt%) looks better than Joel Embiid and Ben Simmons (.319 and .083) from a D’Antoni perspective…
LaMelo is putting in work on his set shot
Wait, is this not glaringly obvious to everyone?
I’m good, thanks for asking. My tutoring gigs have really picked up due to the state of NYC schools and so I have returned to being a lurker and enjoying ( most of) the discourse here.
As for your question about legacy skills, my thinking on education has evolved to after we provide elementary-aged students with the ability to do what I call the fundies: reading comprehension, expository and persuasive writing, number sense, and some algebraic thinking, educators’ focus should be on teaching students to think critically in a variety of different disciplines. This blog is replete with posters who are able to routinely do this- access, and process information, whether it’s advanced basketball metrics, economics, or science like climate change with a deeper understanding. I have also become a big proponent of helping students develop their executive functioning and I have seen a dramatic improvement in the three students that I tutor, who all are special ed. students on account of our working on this. I know your godchildren are of elementary school age and I highly recommend working with them on EF.
oh – YOU ROCK Bo!!!
that’s perfect info…okay then:
1). critical thinking:
– analyze analogies
– create categories and classify items appropriately
– identify relevant information
– construct and recognize valid deductive arguments
– test hypotheses
– recognize common reasoning fallacies
– distinguish between evidence and interpretations of evidence – question everything (i love that part – honestly, of all the things i learned in school – my 12th grade english teacher teaching critical thinking sticks with me the most)…
funny story (at least to me), went to sachem (large school, lots of kids) out on the island, my first period class was english which overlooked the faculty parking lot…i drove the same car, mustard color convertible MGB, as the principal so i used to park there all the time…i was late a lot, and when i showed up at class people would just look and laugh, they could hear and see me coming…i remember one time i was so high that when i was speaking to the teacher i was waving my hand around and accidently marked up the poor lady’s nice blouse with the pen i had in my had…i was pretty goofy…
2). executive functioning:
– retain information
– focus attention/filter distractions
– switch mental gears
my goodness, that’s great stuff right there mister Bo…thank you sooooo much…this is a very good start for me…i don’t have an exact plan at the moment to evaluate them and make this work with the kids, but – at least i got the goal posts set up though 🙂
oldest of 3 god kids is actually on her own now, i’m bad with out of sight, out of mind…parenting definitely doesn’t end when they leave the house…i need to reach out to her more…
hopefully i can learn and get better with the two youngest…provide the necessary skills for independent living and give them the confidence/humility and love to be “successful” at life…
I have more faith in Heat role players than in Lakers not named Lebron
Billy Donovan literally just left because they don’t plan on spending money, so I suspect that would be a huge demerit for Doc.
It also makes you wonder about Thibs’ grasp of tactics. 😉
Knicks should have tanked for Mahomes
Maybe we should sign Mook again and try to trade him to Doc during the next AllStar break off-season
I wouldn’t underestimate role players named Kyle, Rajon, Dwight, Kentavious, Danny, or Markieff.
yep, they both were huge last series…they just played really smart and well against denver…
absolutely, although for whatever crazy reason – it really seemed like thibs wanted the job…
Sorry for not responding, was working. To give you guys some perspective on where I come from, my family is from a tiny Asian country smaller than most states, and we were a heavily persecuted family there, with more than a few tragic experiences. I was born here, but I speak with an accent, so I was always considered an outsider through school. Anyways, my family came to this country with nothing, had many disadvantages, and now lower-middle class, but devoted all of their time, money, and energy in getting me to and through medical school. My family (and my culture as well) believes very much in hard work, personal responsibility, having as little to do with government as possible. As you can imagine, this belief evolved from generations of having very bad encounters with unfriendly governments. Anyways, you can see how this led to a freedom/small govt/freedom of enterprise/don’t tell me what to do type of mindset, which is not exactly wrong, but led them to the GOP. I am very aware of the differences between the slogans and actual politics, so I’m very much a Democrat.
To get back to what I was saying before, I defend the right of anyone to believe in what they believe in, their political views are their private property, and if they are a Republican, as long as they do not espouse hatred or evil, I am fine with it. I do not think the person is a bad person because of their affiliation. I try to understand why, and what their views are, and more often than not, it is something I agree with too.
My original post was a reaction to everyone here saying “look, Dolan is contributing to the Republican party” and then The Glass Half Rebuilt said something about racism, which he later clarified. But my point stands. I later said something regretful about Biden, which I retract and apologize. Something does seem off about his speech, but I cannot diagnose anything substantial in this way.
As Mr. Miyage said, “For person with no forgiveness in heart, living worse punishment than death” and that is where many in the left wing is today. We need more love and empathy, and less purity and penalty.
way cool wetbandit…thanks for sharing…
all you need is love 🙂
It’s not possible to underestimate Kyle Kuzma who sucks at literally everything
***To give you guys some perspective on where I come from, my family is from a tiny Asian country smaller than most states, and we were a heavily persecuted family there, with more than a few tragic experiences.***
Regardless, glad your family is safe, and I’m sure you have an amazing story, persevering and getting through med school, etc…
One thing that you can give your family in return is to not waste your time and energy rooting for the New York Knicks, not because of Dolan being a republican, but because they do, shall, and forever will be truly terrible at what they do.
I would be very surprised. Timor, like Brazil, was colonized by Portugal. The Iberian tradition is one of heavy institutions. States that came from that tradtion are about hard work and personal responsibility as well, but they are much more present in everyone’s lives than in the United States, for example, for good and for bad. Free initiative is not so championed as in the USA, in general, and there’s more social protection.
(EDIT: OMG, the Indonesians promoted a semi-genocide in Timor-Leste?? I didn’t know it. Hope your family didn’t have this kind of trouble, Wetbandit).
I don’t think he sucks. He’s mediocre but is 6’10” and presents yet another dilemma for Miami’s smallball lineups. That’s the thing about the Lakers. They can run out a “small” lineup with AD, LeBron, Kuzma, Green and KCP/Rondo where they have a size advantage at every position. Or they can defend Bam with Howard, who is rejuvenated and playing more like the DPOY he used to be.
More generally, the Lakers supporting cast is better than people are making it out to be, partially because LeBron simply makes everyone better like he always has, and partly because they are just good. They dispatched the Blazers, Rockets and Nuggets with relative ease. They will likely do the same to the Heat.
I can’t say the country, it is rare enough that I could probably be identified, but yes, if not Timor Leste it is a country very similar to it, with genocidal features over the years, and a healthy amount of anti-European animus – but all of that is fairly pan Asian. But years of struggle did instill a strong anti violent and altruistic culture, that affects how we see the world and US politics today. It’s often very hard to describe my views to Americans.
The tanking thing is really circular logic and it’s hard to know what the real story is.
Only bad teams end up at the top of the lottery. Bad teams in general have bad management, development infrastructure, and coaching. Other than the concerted multi-year tank that the Sixers did, which was still destroyed by incompetent management in subsequent years, the only teams that (in my memory) have really done well with true tanking are the Spurs (who had David Robinson out for the year and were lucky enough to have a generational player in their tank year in Duncan) and the Cavs with Lebron, who just might be the best player in NBA history.
It really is pretty shocking to look at the top 3 picks going back (I’m going to start with 2018 since 2019 is a little too close to know):
2018: Ayton, Bagley, Luka —> Luka is generational and the other two are…not.
2017: Fultz, Lonzo, Tatum –> Tatum is a really nice player, not sure if he’s a guy that will “change your franchise”
2016: Simmons, Ingram, Jaylen Brown –> none of these guys are “best player on a championship team” – maybe 3rd best? 4th and 5th picks that year were Dragan Bender and Kris Dunn
2015: KAT, D’Angelo Russell, Okafor –> none are franchise-changing, DAR on 3rd team, Okafor out of league
2014: Wiggins, Parker, Embiid –> Embiid maybe could be best player on champ, probably not.
2013: Bennett, Oladipo, Otto Porter –> one out of league, one really good not great player, one overpaid role player
2012: Anthony Davis, MKG, Beal –> one franchise changer no longer with the drafting team, one All-Star but not-franchise-changer, and MKG
2011: Kyrie, Derrick Williams, Kanter –> one 2nd best player on champ, not difference maker on his own
2010: Wall, Evan Turner, Derrick Favors –> one All-star but not franchise changer
2009: Blake Griffin, Thabeet, Harden –> one franchise changer, one all-star
So in total, in TEN drafts, only 3 (Luka/AD/Harden) look to be true franchise changers, and two of those players are no longer with the teams that drafted them. Only 12 out of 30 are All-star-type players. And I’m not a RINGZZZ guy but it’s sort of notable that a grand total of ONE top 3 pick in the last 10 drafts actually has a ring (Kyrie – and only because he ended up on a team with one of the 2 greatest players ever). AD may join him this season, but again — not with the team that drafted him, and only because he’s with Lebron.
Now this total confounding — of course in a vacuum you’d rather have better picks than worse picks, and bad teams will tend to do a bad job developing their own players. But the point is, it’s much more important to be a good organization than to have good picks. Ideally you’d like both, but that really is pretty rare. it’s Boston making an amazing trade with Billy King to get Tatum. It’s Sam Presti who had really an unprecedented run of amazing picks with KD/Harden/Russ/Ibaka. it might GSW this year with the perfect tank year except it’s reportedly a bad draft.
So – it’s a very low hit rate on these high picks, and meanwhile you are just dumping seasons and disheartening your fan base. My son who is 10 couldn’t care less about the Knicks, and why would he? He was 2 when they last had a semi-ok season.
The Process has turned out to be a failure, because they didn’t finish what really would have been a good Process. A Real Process is much harder than tanking, and especially hard because of the new lottery rules, because not only do you have to tank your way to a generational player (which requires a lot of luck – win lottery, but not just any lottery but the one with generational star) but you also have to do all the steps after getting that player – developing low-cost talent to play with that generational player, signing/trading for the right co-stars, etc.). A much lower risk way to go is to go all out on development and scouting, and to look under every stone for advantages at the margins, much like the Yankees have done for the last 20+ years.
So very long story made short – I’m fine with not tanking going forward, with tanking defined as basically trying to lose games. That doesn’t mean to go and sign the Elfrid Paytons of the world to eke out a “veteran-led” 32 win team. it doesn’t mean that you don’t take on a bad contract to get draft picks. But it also doesn’t mean that you forego the chance to get incrementally better (at the right price and the right player) just because you’re worried about hurting lottery odds going forward. But while you do that, you have to put all the resources you can into development and any edge you can find that both improves your existing assets and, since FA is a reality and one of the most effective tools for “making the jump”, makes your franchise more attractive. We already have two huge advantages in NYC and an owner who despite all his many warts is willing to spend. We just need a steady hand at the helm – really hope that Rose is that guy.
by the way – I only went to 2009 – but it’s not that great even going further back:
2008 – Rose, Beasley, Mayo
2007- Oden, Durant, Horford
2006 – Bargnani, Aldridge, Adam Morrison (!)
2005 – Bogut, Marvin Williams, Deron Williams (CP3 was drafted 4th)
2004 – Dwight Howard, Okafor, Ben Gordon
2003 – Lebron, Darko, Melo, Bosh, Wade
2002 – Yao Ming, Jay Williams, Mike Dunleavy
2001 – Kwame Brown, Tyson Chandler, Pau Gasol (drafted by Atlanta?)
2000 – Kenyon Martin, Stromile Swift, Darius Miles
1999 – Elton Brand, Steve Francis, Baron Davis
1998 – Olowokandi, Bibby, Raef Lafrentz
1997 – Duncan, Van Horn, Billups
Out of all those, the only franchise changers were Duncan, arguably Yao, Lebron, Wade, Howard, Durant, and arguably Derrick Rose minus the injuries. So out of another 12 years (36 picks), only 6 could be the best player on a contender, and arguably 2 of those would be nonviable in today’s NBA. So in the last 22 years and 66 top 3 picks, fewer than 10 players total were real franchise changes (and really probably more like 7). And again, not that RINGZZ are everything, but out of all those only Duncan and Wade won a championship with the team that drafted them (not counting Lebron although of course he did get to a finals with the 1st Cavs iteration).
It just reinforces how maddeningly super-dumb it was for Sac/PHX to pass on Doncic. Even AD, who I characterized as a franchise changer… didn’t change the Pels. They sucked even with AD and then lost him. The only guys who are REAL franchise changers are the ones who not only are personally great but improve everyone around them by creating easy shots. Honestly looking back it seems ridiculous to take a center, and especially a non-shooting big, with a lottery pick. Zero chance GSW takes Wiseman.
I’m not at all surprised Rivers was fired. Frankly, it was probably a shrewd move. His teams never struck me as particularly well coached, and his title winning season in Boston I often thought the players were working to overcome his mediocrity. His reputation outweighs his contribution by a lot.
It’s arbitrary to limit this to top-3 picks. The idea of avoiding marginal wins is not to secure a top 3 pick, or any pick, specifically. It’s to avoid getting a pick that isn’t reflective of the talent you can reasonably believe will be both on your roster and productive for the foreseeable future.
This is a laudable goal because:
1) despite great players being found all over the draft, there is still a clear correlation between draft position and future productivity
2) higher picks have more trade value
For example, the 2016-2017 Knicks got the 8th pick and drafted Frank Ntilikina despite having one (1) genuinely intriguing player on that roster in Porzingis. What in the ever loving fuck was the point of that?
No one has ever said all free agents should always be avoided. Christian Wood, for example, would probably increase the Knicks’ win total, but he also would have a good chance of being a productive player under contract for a while. So you could make a reasonable case that those aren’t marginal wins.
What we’re talking about is the practice that in all of the years we’ve been having this exact argument, no one has been able to defend: adding wins that everyone knows damn well will not be there in future seasons.
Kuzma is only 6’8″
The question isn’t whether the top 3 picks are franchise players, the question is whether those players are better than the 8th or 9th pick. The answer is yes more often than not.
Would you rather have Ayton, Doncic or Knox?
Tatum or Frank?
And are you really complaining about Ben Simmons & Embiid? Either one would be the best rookie contract player we’ve had since… idk, Ewing?
The idea behind tanking is to go for a high pick.
Getting marginal wins by mercenaries or by young talents has the same result when you go after generational talents on the upcoming draft.
Benching and Developing has a lot to do with marginal wins.
Every team would prefer to get the best talents of every draft which are usually the higher ones.
The problem is that getting the higher picks demands “suicidal” development, injuries or luck.
Speaking of high picks, the T’Wolves seem eager to trade theirs:
>> According to a Western Conference executive, word around the league is Minnesota isn’t leaning one way at No. 1, sounds “confused” and feels pressure after “messing up last year by trading for Jarrett Culver.”
The belief is that Minnesota’s priority is to trade, realistically down the board assuming an established star won’t become available. If the Wolves stick at No. 1, multiple sources say they’d bet on LaMelo Ball having the edge over Anthony Edwards. <<
I would not be shocked if we could get the #1 pick for a mild package. Having said that, I would be loathe to give up *anything* to move from 8 to 1 in order to draft Ball or Edwards.
I’ll even take it one step further: I don’t know that I would trade the 8th pick in this draft for the 1st pick straight up. I know that sounds silly, but think of it this way:
Would you trade Devin Vassell on a 4 year, $20mm contract straight up for LaMelo Ball on a 4 year, $48mm contract? I sure as fuck would not. And I definitely wouldn’t throw in any picks to do so.
This is a bad year to have a top 2 pick. Please, Leon Rose, hold on to all your draft picks and use them. Don’t try to make a splash.
12 all-star type player out of 30 gives one a 40% chance in finding a Batman or Robin type player. Consider that there are maybe 30 to 40 all-star type players in the NBA, which means that you would have to find those 18 to 28 players in the other 570 picks.
As far as tanking goes, the NBA has reworked the lottery to lessen the reward and it appears to have worked well. With the Knicks, I feel it’s not tanking that is the issue but instability in the front office, churning the roster, and poor player development that are the real issues.
i would substitute “incompetence” for instability…and then the other items are a result of that incompetence…
Do you want to be successful?
Copy what successful teams do.
Do they tank?
Do they build strong foundations with basketball geniouses and knowledgeable stuff, assemble competitive cores, create and retain assets while going for the big dogs?
No need to invent.
Just observe, copy and adjust to the future.
Kuzma was listed at 6’10” until the w/o shoes measurements took place. But no matter, as 6’8″ guard he’s taller than everyone in the Heat rotation other than Bam (and Olynyk, if you want to call him a rotation player).
I’m new here and trying to be nice. lol
I believe I posted here or on another forum that if this was anyone else he WOULD be fired, but he probably wouldn’t be because it was “Doc” and the political environment made it more difficult right after the Nets hired Steve Nash. So I was right he should be fired but wrong about what would happen.
More interesting is what is Steve Ballmer going to do in this environment if he honestly believes some white coach is the best man to coach that team?
Clearly if you look at the state of NBA coaching you can reach no other conclusion but that political correctness has run amok. Professor objectivity here with the bold insights once again.
c’mon strat…that ain’t a thing…yeah, i agree, it probably wouldn’t hurt to have an individual coaching the team whom deals well with public speaking, just cuz of the market they’re in, but – i don’t think ballmer is thinking color when he and the front office decide on a coach…
he’s trying to win a championship…if he thought j’onn j’onzz (DC’s martian manhunter, and – very noticeably green) could get the players to the promised land, he’d hire him…
“I’m new here and trying to be nice. lol”
Remember being new here, provocative and restless “fighting” with 10 analytical die hard posters at the same time like Errol Flynn against Pirates!
Now it’s more civilized.
One on one Fencing Duels with referees and rules. Like an Olympic sport! lol
I can’t believe that running a tankathon is still even a conversation when statistical studies have shown it’s a bad idea except in certain situations and we are still floundering after years in the lottery.
Miami was being universally laughed at on this forum while I was defending their approach (despite admitting Riley’s errors). Now they are in the finals and we are still in the early stages of the tankathon for all the reasons I’ve been pointing out.
1. Sometimes the lottery balls don’t cooperate
2. Sometimes you make mistakes with very good picks and especially so when you are drafting 18-19 year olds
3. When you are a terrible team, free agents like Butler, Durant, Kyrie etc.. don’t join you.
4. Drafting 18-19 years old over a series of years means the last drafted kid is still years away from getting the experience and development he needs. So between the hits and misses and development time it winds up being a 6-10 year process depending on how lucky you are up front or if you keep having injuries and get better picks that the talent on your team deserves. Hell, even the Knicks getting RJ because KP was hurt was an advantage and we are still a sucky team.
5. Many young star players that have championship aspirations don’t want to wait around while you are rebuilding via draft because they know they may lose a few years of their peak while the team is in development. So they ask for a trade (Davis and KP being two recent examples).
6. As you do draft young players you slowly get a little better. So the subsequent picks are not as attractive. Then it gets harder and harder to land other stars even if you were one of the lucky 1 or 2 teams over a few years that landed a whale.
when i was in high school, i was in the debate club…actually, i may just be thinking of the drama club…very similar activities, and they both start with a d…
I’m pointing out a very simple fact.
The political environment right now is different than it was even a few months ago otherwise I wouldn’t have had to read 15 articles on Nash’s white privilege even though several black ex PG rookie coaches have also been hired over the years. Nash is so universally respected and loved around the league, he was given a bit of a pass. But it’s obvious some people are pushing for Tyrone Lue and others for the Clippers job and if Ballmer turns around and hires Jeff Van Gundy I guarantee we are going to be reading articles about him being white also instead of just analyzing the merits of that selection for those specific players.
point taken on the nash thing…i actually kind of like the van gundy suggestion for the clippers…
at the end of the day, if i’m steve – i’m doing whatever jerry west tells me to do…
We avoided marginal wins once (2018-2019). It got us RJ Barrett. Then we sprinted from the approach as quickly as we could, and find ourselves, yet again, with the 8th pick.
Feel free to advocate a strategy that requires another team to hemorrhage a top-10 player for no reason (as well as requiring luck in tons of other areas I’ve outlined before). You can simultaneously give Riley credit while also acknowledging this “path” is simply not broadly repeatable.
You don’t avoid marginal wins with a specific pick in mind. You just want to maximize the value of your pick.
Absolutely. Where do you think this happens more frequently, at the top of the draft, or in the Knox/Ntilikina range?
What is so hard to understand about this?
You say this all the time with no evidence, probably because it would, if true, excuse the laughable production of Ntilikina and meh production of Porzingis. The fact of the matter is players that will become productive tend to be productive early on.
New Orleans had Anthony Davis for seven seasons and got a king’s ransom for him on the trade market. Clown example.
We could’ve had Porzingis for that long too if we extended a max offer, no matter what he says. We didn’t want to do that and I’m on the record as saying that was the correct call.
Directly contradicts your 3rd point. If you’re getting better, you’re making good picks and are becoming more attractive to free agents.
It seems to me like if you look at the hiring of an underqualified white head coach and conclude that it proves that it’s a difficult time to hire white head coaches you might be pushing an agenda not objectively evaluating the evidence.
In 2017, Donovan Mitchell and Bam Abadayo were both picked after Frank at 13th and 14th respectively. Both would have been considered less of a reach than Frank even if they were picked at 8th.
In 2018, Mikael Bridges, Shai, and Michael Porter Jr. were taken after Knox at 10, 11, and 14 respectively. And all three, even Porter with his injury, would not have been the reaches Knox was even if picked at 9th.
These aren’t examples of late first round/second round picks that tons of teams passed on. These were players that were picked right after us that we passed over for players with far more question marks.
I love Frank and still have hope for Knox. Maybe the above players aren’t as good on The Knicks because of culture/development…but I think its totally fair to say they would have come into the league with less question marks and a higher floor than Knox or Frank.
“Feel free to advocate a strategy that requires another team to hemorrhage a top-10 player for no reason (as well as requiring luck in tons of other areas I’ve outlined before). You can simultaneously give Riley credit while also acknowledging this “path” is simply not broadly repeatable.”
I’ve seen many ‘big dogs’ changing teams (as a part of a trade or as FA) to call it luck.
Harden, Leonard, Lebron, AD, PG13, Butler, KD, Westbrook, CP3, Aldridge, Griffin….
Its not only repeatable.
You build a core. You “steal” the Big Dog. You get the chip.
TankingOverdose is for teams who chase dragons and… unicorns
>>> Drafting 18-19 years old over a series of years means the last drafted kid is still years away from getting the experience and development he needs. <<<
Absolutely, Strat. There is only way to skin a cat.
The last thing this team needed was to have three years of tanking and end up with 19 year olds like Jayson Tatum (2017), Luka Doncic (2018), and Zion Williamson (2019).
If we had taken that path, we'd be years away from relevance and no free agent would want to join us.
I’m reluctant to acknowledge I’m silly enough to read what you guys are saying on this. IMO the thinking on this subject remains flawed despite studies and our experience. There’s always an excuse.
IMO, the correct plan is to have no plan at all other than getting better every year via whatever opportunities present themselves in whatever market they present themselves (trading picks for players, trading players for picks, signing veteran free agents (within some limits), signing young free agents, trading players, renting cap space, etc..) Really, the only exception is an old veteran team whose window has closed. Then you can trade them and tank for a single year.
The guiding principle should be building a team of high IQ players, with a strong work ethic, that like playing in a team oriented fashion with a lot of player and ball movement, that are willing to work on defense, and whose skill sets compliment each other in ways that make the whole is greater than the sum of the parts instead of the other way around like in NY this year and many other years.
That’s a very general philosophy.
Then it’s on the management to find the players and fit them together correctly. That’s a competency issue. We’ve had no shortage of incompetency in NY as we all know.
IMO, the worst thing you can do is say, “we are going to rebuild doing “X” (be it free agency, via draft for a series of years, and any other method). That limits your chances of finding deals that fit within those general parameters and getting disgruntled stars like Irving/Durant/Butler, trading for Iggy/Crowder, trying to sign Gallinari (as Riley tried to do) for a serious run this year and next.
You have to remain OPEN to all possibilities for getting better. Getting better in and of itself creates more opportunities to get better. Good players want to come join the party. Riley didn’t abandon drafting. He did everything and it fed itself.
As it is most possible to get a high pick each year if you suck as a team it’s equally possible to attract and sign a Big Dog who searches for a Big Contract/Contending Team if you manage to remain competitive and salary cap controlled.
It works both ways.
The difference is that the one way is more attracted by shitty teams while the other by smart ones.
Every week people around the country hit Lotto and get rich. That doesn’t mean it’s a good financial plan.
I am saying when the time is right to tank you should do it for a single year and then start moving forward again.
If we are honest, a lot of people here were trashing Tatum, Brown and other Celtics last year. I said they were a player away from serious contention (they need an upgrade at C). People here talk a great game about rebuilding but they probably would have wanted to trade both of them because they thought they were overrated and they wouldn’t want to give them big contracts then or now. lol
Doncic wasn’t snagged by all out tanking. He was snagged by a mostly bad team with a lot of veterans that threw in the towel after they were out of the playoff contention. They knew they had to rebuild and move on from their veteran core and traded up to get him. I have no problem trading up for potential stars. But they immediately went after supporting players than fit Doncic perfectly (robbing the Knicks of KP being one of them). They didn’t keep tanking or shy away from KP’s max contract. There is always some risk of injury and they know it. But you have to try to get better and KP is an enormous talent that has been held back by bad coaching, bad use of his talents, and injury.
Strat’s playing the hits today.
gotta warm up for the big night hubie…although to be honest: anything short of old men fighting may be a bit of a disappointment…
Forget “tank.” Just forget that word. Some people can’t deal with the word “tank,” it triggers them.
REBUILD. FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THINGS HOLY, USE THE WORD “REBUILD” AND THEN MAYBE WE WON’T HAVE TO HAVE THIS SAME STUPID FUCKING ARGUMENT FOR 10 YEARS.
Get guys who fit into your win curve. If you suck, don’t bring in mediocre free agents who get you to 28 wins. That is fucking stupid! Can we all agree on that at least? If you can find a free agent who might someday contribute to a winning team, like an ACTUAL winning team that wins 50+ games, GET THAT GUY. If you can trade for a player who might someday contribute to your winning team, GET THAT GUY.
If you can’t find players that fit into your win curve, take flyers on guys who might improve. Convert win-now type veterans into draft picks. Rent your cap space to acquire assets. JUST STOP PUTTING TOGETHER ROSTERS OF SHITTY VETERANS WHO END UP WINNING 28 GAMES.
Why oh why oh why is this so hard to understand? Most of you people seem very intelligent.
Once again, I will say that I am not a proponent of abject tanking. I don’t think there is anything you can accomplish via tanking that you can’t accomplish without it. As swift pointed out, had we just hired a smart GM with a proven track record and the ability to build a first-class management/scouting/coaching/public relations team, it would matter far less whether we abjectly tanked or just floundered along in the mid lottery. We’ve drafted #3, 4, and some 8’s and 9’s, and could have found 4-5 foundational players…maybe rented out cap space and signed some low-risk FA’s to reasonable contracts (like Morris) and voila! You have the Nets…or the Heat….or the Mavs…..or the Warriors…or the Celts…or the Blazers…or the Raptors…or the Bucks…etc.
The problem with the Knicks is 1 part not tanking and 99 parts bad decision-making at nearly every other level…drafting, FA signing, hiring, public relations, etc. Strat’s imbecility is not in scoffing at tanking, it’s in his moronic insistence that Frank and Phil and yadayada were good decisions in any way whatsoever.
That’s why teams like the Wolves, Suns, Kings, etc. get leap-frogged by the Heat, Raptors, Celtics, etc. Even the Sixers are on the verge of collapse, not because of tanking vs. not tanking, but because of terrible management decisions one after another.
The Knicks are on a better path right now than they have been since the early 1990’s. They hired an excellent coach, a strong scouting/player development/cap management team, and have an enviable cap/contract situation. They don’t need to tank to get better, just make good decisions one at a time, starting with this draft and then with impending free agency.
At the very least, the argument for tanking is greatly watered down since the lottery odds were flattened. Sure, there’s some utility to it, but it is not without cost. GMs and coaches who buy into tanking generally don’t last very long.
Yeah, pretty much agreed…this is a better way of putting it.
Yeah, win curve is really the key. Basically, the worst place in the world to be picking in the lottery is #6-9.
That’s where you’re just bad enough where your spot on the win curve sucks, but not bad enough to get a top five pick, which is where most of the top players are found.
The Knicks, of course, have drafted in the top five twice in the past twenty shitty seasons, and they got two of their best draft picks in those twenty years.
If you’re picking #10-14 (and yes, I know #6-9 is four picks while #10-14 is five, but the lottery is 14 picks, so it is hard to split it into three groups), that means that you were almost good enough to make the playoffs, so your place on the win curve is better and you’re also typically more willing to pick less “swing for the fences” guys (or, in the alternative, you’re also more willing to take long term projects), and often those guys turn out to be pretty darn good (especially playing for a team already good enough to almost make the playoffs).
If you’re picking #10-14, you can see a case where a smart GM can make some moves to help you become an actual good team.
But if you’re routinely picking #6-9, you’re just doing a shitty job with your team. The Knicks have picked #6-9 in seven of the last nine NBA drafts where they were in the lottery (not counting times they traded their lottery pick, but counting the time they traded their lottery pick on the night of the draft for McDyees).
Of course, there have been some good players picked #6-9, but they’re barely different than the guys picked #10-14, which is also the problem in a nutshell.
It seems like every time I turn around I read some article how the Knicks need a point guard, but actually the Knicks have a lot of point guards already. We have Smith, Ntilikina, Payton, Pinson and Harper and we should probably count Lamar Peters too. We don’t have anybody very good, but we have backup point guard covered multiple times. There aren’t many point guard free agents out there (only Van Vleet and Jordan Clarkson come to mind) but some teams do need backup point guards. There ought to be a trade market we can leverage with one of those guys, even if it’s a minor return.
Who exactly is the proponent of abject tanking?
I think everyone here is a “read the room” kinda guy.
If you’re coming off a 17 win season, have one good player on your roster, and the top tier free agents have shot you down… the room indicates you should acquire assets. It doesn’t mean you need to tank.
Example: How many people would have taken Chris Paul last year if he came with the trove of picks Houston gave up? I’d have been happy with Paul, another decent vet, 42 wins, and a bunch of picks from the rockets.
The problem (that we all have identified over and over and over) is that we sacrifice draft position and the ability to acquire assets for players that don’t move the needle. I’d rather win 42 games than 17 games, but I’d rather win 17 games than 25.
That’s why DJ Augustin is mentioned so often.
But picking 6-9 isn’t bad if you pick the right guys. If we had picked the guys that Swift mentioned instead of Frank or Knox, we’d probably be picking lower than #8 this year but it wouldn’t matter because we’d be fielding a very good young team and maybe signing a good young FA to move up the win curve.
No one is arguing that signing Taj, Portis, Ellington, Bullock, etc. were good moves, given the team we had. But if we had done the right thing at #8-9, we would have been in a position where signing a couple of flyers could be good for team development.
It doesn’t help that Mills/Perry AGAIN bid against themselves for Portis, Gibson, Ellington, Bullock (originally) and possibly Randle and Payton. Even if we WERE further along on the win curve, all but the Morris and Bullock (after the injury) were value signings. And THAT’S a much bigger problem. It’s the same kind of problem that makes tanking teams suck even when they DO hit the lottery (which I believe is Jowles’s take…teams in position to tank are usually poorly run.)
Tanking: Lose games on purpose
Rebuild: Try to Win and be competent again the best way possible
(Goal 30-40 wins)
20-30Wins – Twilight Zone -Team hasn’t decided which way to go. Probably a shitty team which is incapable of even losing on purpose or a freshly rebuilding one.
Bring incompetent/untradeable FAs means: Stupid GM
Same goes for drafting Busts
It’s not the picks themselves, it’s being in the position to draft #6-9. Drafting #6-9 means you are a shitty team that has decided to try to win now for some dumb reason, despite being unable to actually win now.
this right here…i hate losing games, but – being in the 20 something win category is bad news and bad management…
for a lot of our young guys this is their 3rd or 4th coach already…hopefully one of them develops nicely under thibs and his staff…
dennis smith junior is changing his number…that’s something 🙂
(Fans for the Ethical Treatment of Assets)
“I’d rather go naked than draft 6-9 again!”
Not necessarily, it could mean lots of things…young players got better or were coached better, established players underperformed or got hurt, etc. For example, if you sign a guy like Randle to a reasonable deal and he takes the next step, if RJ plays like Tatum did in year 1, if Knox or Frank made a leap, if Iggy plays like Herro, you can easily wind up in the 6-9 range without trying to win now. I mean, we had one more win than the Hawks, who clearly weren’t tanking.
By your logic, you should argue that the dumbest move of all was making Miller head coach. How can you possibly expect that a 55yo rookie coach isn’t going to do everything possible to win every game?
Again, whatever the mindset going in was (win-now, tank, or some kind of hybrid) they screwed it up in every possible way…especially in using cap space to bid against themselves for shitty vets (who actually didn’t help them win anyway!)
Once or twice, of course. Shit happens, no doubt (injuries, etc.). But the Knicks do it consistently. Five different heads of basketball operations all did the same darn “Win now even if we can’t win now” approach (except for one year by Mills/Perry).
I do hope that Rose is the exception. I really, really hope so.
Anyway, what’s done is done. Looking forward, what is the best strategy for this team? Clearly they are not going to tank, so no use even arguing about it. Thibs is going to play the guys who play the way he wants, which is balls-out, defense first, team first. His advantage is that for now, he’s bigger than anyone on the team. He doesn’t have a primadonna like KP or Melo or KAT to worry about coddling. He and Rose are on the same page for now.
He also has some Thibs-friendly raw material to work with. I think he will find out whether guys like Knox, Frank, Iggy, Wooten, Dotson, and whoever they draft this year are worth keeping around on the roster. He’ll probably talk Rose into keeping Taj and Bullock. Beyond that, who knows?
I just want to make it absolutely clear I am dead set against drafting good players later in the lottery, developing young players, acquiring undervalued young players, acquiring picks for veterans or acquiring cheap productive veterans with upside.
The only thing worth doing is tanking hard as hell until we can draft the Messiah and he takes us up to visit James Naismith in basketball Heaven.
Correction: were NOT value signings.
PS the posting barrage is killing time before the debate.
Is taking on players for picks a realistic strategy?
what’s the longest argument anyone’s ever had about courtney lee without mentioning courtney lee
I see that as more of a tactic than a strategy, no?
Just had to pop your head out of your mensa cave to bust chops, didn’t you?
what, you’re gonna watch the debate, c’mon man – nobody is gonna watch that thing 🙂
i’m gonna guess after the final ratings: it’ll top out at about 100 million or so (including online views)…
I don’t think so. You have to actively decide on taking players for picks ahead of time.
Well you can just keep cap space open and then use it to either take on bad contracts for picks or to make trades on useful players without getting back picks or to make trades for good players where you give up picks. So the strategy is keeping the cap space available and use it opportunistically and the tactic is to use it solely to acquire picks. That’s the way I see it anyway, not that it matters much beyond semantics.
Thibs likes Randle’s work ethic and professionalism
Knox has shot well in the bubble
RJ passed well on a workout
Knicks interviewed Tyrell Terry and Precious Achiuwa (RJ Hampton previously)
I tried going with “avoiding marginal wins” earlier for this reason. I’ve also gone with “asset accumulation mode” in the past. It doesn’t seem to help.
What Strat and co. keep whiffing on is the fact that the strategy doesn’t foreclose any specific type of acquisition. Seriously! You can still sign free agents, make trades, and draft players all while purposefully not getting wins that do nothing but sabotage you.
I’ll go back to the Christian Wood example–signing him would not be compatible with a strategy that calls for losing as many games as possible at all costs, but it arguably would be compatible with a rebuilding/asset accumulation/marginal win avoidance strategy (depending on the contract etc.).
The disconnect here seems to be that there inevitably will be times where a team in this position has the option to either pursue immediate/marginal wins, or make a move(s) that avoids them but puts the team in a better long-term position, and I guess there’s a crowd that prefers the former? When Phil Jackson signed Derrick Williams and Arron Afflalo for more guaranteed money than Hinkie took on in the Sacramento salary dump that brought him an unprotected first rounder and two swaps Strat thought that was AWESOME.
Seems like the Yankees’ film team did a great job with Bieber. He’s just not getting the chases he’s gotten all year.
1) Signing Wood to a reasonable contract now would be similar to signing Randle last year. Randle’s contract was reasonable in both size and duration. It’s uncertain how much he will command, but clearly anything beyond Randle-like terms would be risky. So the Randle signing made sense in both your world and in Strat’s.
2) Payton at $8 million is probably a reasonable flyer on the outside chance that he finally learns how to shoot. Didn’t work out, but hard to call that move “chasing marginal wins.”
3) The Portis/Ellington/Bullock (original)/Gibson signings made no sense. None whatsoever.
4) The Morris and Bullock (after the fact) signings were fine. One yielded valuable assets, the other is a possible bench piece on a value deal who can be re-signed and flipped at the deadline for a 2nd rounder.
So all-in-all it was a dumb strategy, compounded by the absurdity of #3. Without those signings, there would have been room for absorbing contracts, and more playing time for younger players. But it’s hard to argue that any move added wins more than firing Fizdale and promoting Miller. If they had just kept Fiz, they would have finished bottom 3 for sure.
It would be dreamy to collect valuable assets, develop your youngsters and lose every game.
Unfortunately Development and Valuable players usually go along with (marginal) Wins unless your coach and your players have the promise from the owner that they’ll remain in the team no matter what and that their prioritiy is losing instead of winning.
It’s either tanking or Rebuilding.
Unless injuries(Curry/Thompson) or ownership order(Zion draft) or incompetence to do any of these(see knicks)
i had the good fortune of having my apartment get repainted earlier today, so i can literally watch paint dry instead of that catastrophe.
Imagine last season’s knicks’ young core under Brad Stevens with Defensive minded mercenaries like Noel, ABradley and great 3p shooters instead of the PF carnival.
If you go to 30-32wins under MMiller with last off-season’s “circus” you definitely go over 40w with the other group i described under BStevens.
It’s not rocket science.
My wife and son are watching the debate in the living room. She’s only yelled “Shut up” at Trump three times so far, so it must be fairly civil.
Civil it was not. Even the Fox News moderator got tired of Trump’s shit.
Well that was almost unwatchable.
Why in the world, if you’re trailing by seven points, would you try to derail a debate like that? Every strategic move he has made this year has seemed to hurt him. It’s staggering in its stupidity.
They really should just cancel the other 2 debates
Yeah. I’m kind of regretting not doing anything else with the time, since it went about exactly as I thought it would go. Trump interrupted and keep gnawing on the same dumbass bones, and undermined the legitimacy of the whole thing while dropping some sound bites for the base. Biden had a few decent moments but stumbled a bit and didn’t get into much of a groove thanks to Trump’s dipshit tactics.
Kind of hilarious though that a sitting president more or less refused to condemn white supremacists and right wing extremism. The absolute most he could muster after being asked to do so point blank was telling the Proud Boys (and I quote) ‘to stand down and stand by’ then deflecting onto antifa.
If they’re not going to straight up cut off their mics when it’s not their turn, I don’t see much of a point to the other two. I guess the vice presidential debate might be a little more palatable.
My therapist advised me to take a break from politics with my wedding coming up (6 days, y’all!) bc I have enough stress to deal with as is. So I’ve mostly bowed out of following stories and beefing with head-in-the-sand Trump supporters on social media.
I don’t think she follows the NBA, or else she would’ve advised me to take a break from the Knicks too…
Hey congratulations!!! Can’t blame you for that. I mostly try not to engage on politics with people in my personal life. I grew up in rural Illinois, so I know plenty of classic Trump voters. Not taking the bait on their bullshit makes for a less stressful time, for sure.
My mother has been here since last week. Tomorrow is when the GO time starts for real: My sis and her fam touches down late morning. My brother flies in around 6:30p. We move to our respective Airbnbs in the IE tomorrow for a week (closer to the wedding venue). Oh, and for everyone except mom and my oldest nephew, this is their FIRST TIME in California. It’s a bit like Christmas except more nerve-wracking lol.
Cdiggy congrats! That’s so much more important than politics, enjoy your wedding and marriage!
And yes, To paraphrase Dana Bash, what a fucking shitshow , who the fuck votes orange after a debate like that? Wow. I feel like I got peer pressured into watching the Jersey Shore drunk again, and then watched grown men fight over who gets to wear the shirt before the shirt, but that had some comedic value.
Oh, and Biden looks like has some kind of a stutter remnant from his childhood, he looked totally with it, thank God. I just wished he laughed at Trump more, looked like it really pissed him off. And he went for the unity love angle, I like it, hope it goes better than it did here. Still a bad candidate though, couldn’t we have gone with Gabbard or something, come on.
I haven’t had the opportunity myself yet, but being at my siblings’ weddings has been an interesting experience. The stress seems crazy for the couple and the parents, so it was nice to have the only thing I had to do be wear the right color tie and greet people at the reception haha. Best of wishes with your wedding and going forward – it’s pretty cool that something so life-affirming continues to happen even in crazy years like this one!
BTW: me as a Knick fan just never stops getting trolled. The Finals include the Pat the Rat Miami Heat (yeah I know we’d be better off if Knick management gave him control but whateva) vs the Lakers… and by now you guys know how i feel about Laker fans lol
Biden should borrow a line and tactic from Reagan: just smile, shake your head, and say, “There you go again.” Mock the guy.
The very-near-future wife is on my case to pack for tomorrow, soooo I gotta go now. Lol
Thanks again everyone for the well wishes. I’ll try to resurface again before next Monday.
Honestly, twenty minutes of smiling and laughing at him would probably push Trump into a nuclear-level breakdown. I don’t know if anything would enrage his particular psyche more than being laughed at.
And a special shout out for having your wedding at the same time the Lakers are in the finals so your soon-to-be-wife and her Lakers fan friends can’t watch the game. That’s next level, man.
I am 90% sure Biden has some debate strategist who will tell him that for the next debate.
What the fuck was with the Proud Boys stand back and stand by comment?!
I can see the Trump strategy, btw. He ain’t making up 7 points. But if he dampens enthusiasm for the election enough, in the middle of a pandemic where it’s not completely safe to go to the polls, he could get enough people to stay home to steal another one. His side’s turning out, especially since they don’t believe in covid.
I really don’t get why a happy occasion like marriage should be stressful instead of pure fun but i won’t be stressed to find out also!
Have Fun with it cdiggy! Best Wishes!
And May your life’s rebuild lead you to a Dynasty!
Congrats! I’d keep watching, the debates between me and my wife made tonight look dainty.
@Wetbandit did you see it or do you want further context? I unfortunately wasted my evening watching it.
Another fun moment was when Trump claimed “there was no transition” between Obama and him, and that Obama and Biden tried to orchestrate a shadow coup to oust him from the start. It was so batshit I don’t think it even registered with the moderator. Mind you, this was in response to a question about whether he would respect the election result and wait for the votes to be counted in full before declaring victory.
I just hope America does its “rebuild” better than the Knicks….
Here is what, Lee Atwater, famous Republican political advisor and strategist to Presidents Reagan and G.H.W. Bush, who was also Chairman of the RNC, had to say in 1981 on the issue:
What does it matter if every Republican is racist or not if the party’s entire electoral strategy was to appeal to racist white supremacist sentiments since Nixon like this?
just about finished watching…trump just doesn’t disappoint…joe did fine – needs to hit that rich guy laughing at all you poor people harder…
he came across sooooo dirty going after dude’s son – what a total scumbag…
his two biggest triggers: question his intelligence or his hair, will totally put him on tilt…trump on tilt comes across as extreme petulant behavior…
actually, he sounds about the same throughout: petulant…
he is a very real threat, he tells you that in his own words…
man, are you not entertained…
The son thing was definitely really scummy. I actually thought Joe’s response was surprisingly honest and one his strongest moments in the debate. Admitting that his son had a drug problem but has overcome it and that Biden is still proud of him seemed very genuine to me. Probably not how Trump expected it to go.
definitely, he was on point with that response…
had read that joe had a weakness for numbers, it’s true: toss a bunch of numbers at him and he freezes up…stuns him for a second…
I think brian mentioned it, but yes trump most definitely sucks at debates…he’s just lazy and unfocused…
great salesman/showman though…i hate the character he’s playing, but, he’s most definitely selling out to it…
watching fox now to see how fox reacts…I know what cnn and msnbc are gonna say, I watched it – I wanna see how fox spins it…
good job chris wallace, not sure how he’s received by his conservative colleagues, but, I don’t think he gives a shit…
I can’t wait to see the town hall one, that should be even weirder…
Congrats and good luck CDiggy
awwww, cdiggy be safe and enjoy sir…i think I have a slight idea of just how special this relationship is to you…many blessings 🙂
I appreciate that therapy talk more than you could know…
a hard head makes for a soft ass…another saying of mom’s that she got from her cajun dad…
I’m filled with pride to my own detriment at times…I need to get on the program with working on stuff, talk to someone that’s got some paper in helping folks through things…i tend to avoid and distract when it comes to health stuff…unless something’s truly falling to pieces, pretend like it ain’t really happening…
you never know cdiggy when you might help someone…have a beautiful trip…
we can all sleep easy now that the post is reporting that RJ is dominating in practice bubble…
watching the yankee game now…just saw luke voit walk up to the plate and smack the home plate umpire on the ass – is that a thing now…
pretty bold move by young mister voit, I like it…
that’ll get him a steroid test request from the league…
I find it amazing lemahieu is the first guy to ever win a batting title in both leagues…that just seems like something that would have happened by now…
someone said it above already, it certainly did look like the yankee hitters knew what pitches were coming…
I don’t think that was exactly the strategy. That’s a bit too eleven-dimensional chess for a dullard like Trump.
I think the idea was to simply go as alpha male as possible and do the dominance politics thing.
He probably thought hey, I can really let it rip because I’m not debating a woman. I think he thought it’d get Biden flustered and force him into some mistakes. Which it did, sort of.
The problem though is that you inevitably turn some people off when you interrupt every five seconds, traffic in insane conspiracy theories, refuse to repudiate white supremacy, and give a tacit endorsement to the Proud Boys, who are now using your endorsement as their slogan.
So overall probably a net loss for Cheeto Benito. Dude is running out of time.
Geo, I had a long post in reponse to what you said about helping you with the therapy talk but I accidentally erased it (the trouble with posting via cellphone). I got a long day tomorrow, so I’ll just say thank you very much – I’m really glad I helped somehow. Just remember that sometimes we don’t always have the tools we need in-house to fix shit. And I feel it’s difficult to come to terms with that as a man, trust me.
Yeah, I shouldn’t have said strategy. I don’t think the guy is ever playing on a higher dimension. He just does something that sometimes inadvertently works out better than the pundits anticipate. And I think this could be an example of that.
The outcome today seems to universally be “that was an embarrassment to our country.” I think that’s good for him.
Polls don’t take into account a person’s enthusiasm to go to a polling station in November during a pandemic. You might say you’ll vote for Biden when a pollster calls you on the phone, but it doesn’t mean you’re showing up this November. The more Trump can dampen enthusiasm for swing voters, the better.
I don’t think the anti-trump vote can carry this election across 50 states. Biden is going to need to get people excited for him and his platform, and he hasn’t been particularly good at that since 2019.
I will continue to be skeptical of the dem’s chances despite their lead in the polls. Especially with the party pushing the mail-in voting for in-state voter, which frankly seems destined to be 2020’s hanging chad.
Biden has pretty much eliminated the enthusiasm gap.
But yes, clearly, people are still worried about Trump somehow stealing the election. I don’t think that will keep them from voting, but it is a real concern for people. Helped, of course, by Trump strongly hinting that he will, indeed, steal the election, so it’s hard to blame people for worrying about it.
Biden could win by 20 points and collect all of the swing states and Trump will still contest the election on conspiratorial grounds. The goal of the GOP is power at any cost, and so we’re going to have about 35% of the people in this country believing a massive conspiracy of nationwide voter fraud if Trump simply asserts, without any evidence, that it happened.
Here is a fantastic series from Lawfare on each state’s particular set of challenges going into the most consequential election since Lincoln’s.
I would love to see a breakdown of those statistics, Brian, based on how you intend to vote (in-person or via mail). With the expected increase in mail-in voting (and everything that could go wrong with it), poll results aren’t giving me the confidence they normally would.
Congrats, CDiggy. Marriage is rad. We just spent four days in solitude, 20 miles into the southern Cascade mountains. I didn’t wear pants for the duration.
Brian, any chance we can get a Lakers-Heat prediction thread/poll before tip-off? I was surprised to see a pundit predicting Herro for FMVP. Want to see what the braintrust thinks going into Game 1.
Yep congrats CDiggy. It’s a lot of fun and a lot of work, but the good kind.
I’ll take Lakers in 6
Few things dampen voter enthusiasm more than the sense of an inevitable outcome. Were this a normal election, the months-long 7-10% lead in the polls that Biden has enjoyed would certainly have led to complacency among a non-insignificant number of prospective Biden voters. Trump could have conceivably eked out another razor-thin electoral victory by using that underdog status to both rally his base and induce enough Democrats to relax, believing “Why bother? Joe’s got this” Of course, that would have required Trump to more or less conduct himself like a normal candidate, run a more or less normal campaign, and quietly nibble away at the margins as he successfully did in 2016.
Of course, Trump is emotionally incapable of conducting himself in such a manner. He was nominally able to do so last time around ago but four years in power have erased whatever limited capacity for self-restraint he may have once possessed. Loudly braying his intent to challenge the electoral process wherever the vote may be close has energized the anti-Trump vote in a way that the milquetoast Biden never could. Anti-Trump voters have been alerted – by Trump himself – that the best way to derail Trump’s gambit is by ensuring that the vote is not close in as many places as possible. Piecemeal legal challenges may have given him a victory if the election outcome hinged on no more than a couple of states. But Trump is now underwater in the swing states he barely won in ’16 and vulnerable in others he won comfortably (AZ, NC, GA, TX, FL, OH, IA) Should an energized anti-Trump turnout (which is reportedly happening already in states that have begun early voting) put most, if not all, of those states in play that’s likely too much for Team Trump to overcome solely by dint of the courts. That strategy, too, may have been workable had it not been for a candidate whose total lack of impulse control is now motivating his opponents at near-historical levels.
I’m going Lakers in 7, but I am endlessly confused by this Heat team. We all could have expected the Lakers to breeze into the Finals, but the Heat have played better-quality opponents in the Bucks and Celts and destroyed them all the same. The keys will be Miami’s three-point shooting (i.e. execution; they will get looks) and their interior defense (i.e. can they contain Davis and the rebounding/clean-up bigs without giving up the perimeter to the Lakers’ questionable outside shooting). Note that Rondo (career bad%) and Morris (career 34%) are shooting around 44% from three on a combined 58 attempts this playoffs, and KCP is also putting up a 42% rate on 76 attempts, against his 35% career average. Caruso and Kuzma are shooting very badly from deep this playoffs too, so maybe they’ll regress a bit too.
If either one of them falters, they’re going to be playing from behind quite a bit. So yeah, the Heat could win in six if Herro and Robinson shoot 40% from downtown on 10 attempts a game. They could lose in five if Anthony Davis goes supernova and scores 35 PPG on .600 TS%.
I have no idea. It’s going to be a fun series, unless it ain’t.
Being the leader of a literal death cult will do that to you.
yeah, lot’s of sports going on at the moment…looking forward to the finals – i’m thinking it should be competitive…
i don’t know, i think maybe trump has convinced himself he’s going to lose – it’s just how his mind works…pushing even harder on his base in order to set himself and family up with 20 million or so devoted consumers going forward that him and his family can milk for decades…
trump’s impact will be felt for quite awhile, both in our courts and in congress – definitely in how presidential debates are conducted in the future…up until four years ago i used to go through a ballot and try to pick the best candidates and analyze each proposition – not anymore, straight party line voting now…
Agreed. I think people who make the “embarrassment to our country” argument buy into a general misconception that the debates actually function to convince “undecided voters” who to vote for or for inspiring non-voters, the largest constituency of Americans, to care enough to go to the polls.
But IMO, the debates exist at this point in American electoral history to convince the small minority of voters from both major parties, who are the only Americans who consistently watch them, that they are participating in a democracy. It’s one big performance in self-assurance.
Trump, meanwhile, is convincing his base that the election is rigged no matter what happens, so 40% of the voting public are going to be convinced democracy doesn’t exist anyways.
It’s one of many spectacles leading up to November 3rd where he transgresses more norms in our political culture and conditions his base to contest the legitimacy of an election they all know he’ll likely lose.
There’s a theory, which seems correct to me, that by far the most dominant force in modern American politics is negative partisanship. In general voters are much more motivated by their hatred for the other side than anything else. This is why “own the libs” is a thing and it’s why Biden became the Dem candidate in the first place. Democrats wanted to elect a guy they thought could beat Trump, because they hate Trump. Trump has mashed the turbo button on negative partisanship, and after four years of his presidency it has become even more of a dominating factor.
The most positive thing you could say about this debate for Trump is that it probably bought him a little bit of vote subtraction: some people will probably not vote because of the horrible tone of the debate. But I would guess the small group of people that moved into the “not planning to vote” pile were probably undecided before this, so it’s not like he’s subtracting a lot of Biden votes.
looks like the ratings were way down for this debate, as opposed to 2016…i am a little perplexed by the folks claiming to be “undecided”, that just seems really difficult to achieve at this point…
Actual debates never move the needle as much as the post-debate narrative does. Almost no one remembers the Carter-Reagan debates but forty years later many are still familiar with Ronnie’s iconic “There you go again” zinger that was replayed endlessly in the weeks afterwards.
The emerging narrative from last night’s shitshow is not so much that Trump was boorish and embarrassed himself by violating the Marquis of Queensbury rules of debate. Hell, pretty much everyone in America expected that would happen going in. No, most of the chatter today seems to be coalescing around Trump’s blatant rallying cry to the Proud Boys in front of a national TV audience. That is a new wrinkle and a serious escalation over his much coyer “Fine people on both sides” of a few years back. The campaign is aware of how damaging this was and is already taking steps to clean it up, issuing a statement today claiming he was actually telling the hate group to “get out of the way.”
As with every other Trump scandal du jour ($750, the Woodward reveal, “losers and suckers”, Bountygate, to name but a few) this one won’t cause much in the way of noticeable & immediate poll movement. More like a drip…drip….drip of the gradual leaking of support. It’s likely that there are at least some folks who stood by him after all of the previous scandals for whom the Proud Boys comment is a bridge too far. If that were to be Trump’s last outrage between now and election day, the losses may be recoverable. But it won’t be and the drips figure to keep on coming.
I’ve no doubt last night fired up a lot of anti trumpers to vote for Biden. I just think too many of them live in the same states.
Heat in 5 games. Game 5 ends and Riley rises up from the stands, arms crossed like a mafia boss, his smirk hidden by his mask, as Lebron looks up towards him and starts to cry. AD opts out and signs with The Heat.
But the entire point is Trump isn’t courting that faction of voters anymore because his strategy is to jeopardize the very legitimacy of the election. Everything we’ve seen from him fucking with the USPS to mess up Biden’s expected advantages in the mail in vote just screams this fact. In his own warped cost-benefit political calculation the blowback from turning off 40 year old suburban wine moms is worth the kind of mayhem he can create on November 3rd by openly mobilizing right-wing paramilitary gangs to intimidate and harass voters in Democratic urban strongholds. Why? Because it’s clear he wants there to be a contested election, with all of the mayhem and confusion that goes along with it, so he can create a legal pretext to have a conservative dominated Supreme Court (3 of whose justices he will have nominated himself) determine what votes do and don’t get counted like we already saw twenty years ago in 2000 with Gore v. Bush. And he just might be able to do it in a way that gives him the Electoral College vote since these elections always come down to the same handful of battleground states whose Republican dominated state governments commit rampant electoral fraud.
It’s pretty annoying that in this faux democracy we have here, Democrats have to consistently “beat the spread.” We’re going to not only have to overcome the Electoral College and the rural tilt of the Senate, but now we have to deal with various harassment lawsuits, “poll watcher” goons, Bill Barr’s crooked Justice Department… I mean, we gotta win by a Dukakis-sized rout in the popular vote to barely eke out a fucking victory.
If Biden manages to pull this out despite the rather large thumb on the scale, I’m all for some power grabs to restore some sort of parity. Kill the filibuster on day one. Then statehood for DC and PR, and throw in Guam and the US Virgin Islands while you’re at it. Eight new blue senators, sounds about right. Gonna need at least four more SCOTUS seats as well. Pass lots of legislation to undo all of the vote-fucking schemes that were designed by Republicans to keep people of color from voting. Do all of this while holding a giant middle finger aloft for all to see.
We’re in the post-McConnell age, so the only thing that really matters is grabbing onto as much power as you can while you have the chance. Deal with the consequences later.
Let’s see how effective Durham’s smear job is when he announces, without charges, investigations into the Bidens around October 20th. Considering that one of the attorneys quit over alleged politicization, I don’t have high hopes.
Yeah, I’d really like to see the demographics of the current undecided voters. I mean, it’s like, are you rooting for Luke Skywalker or Darth Vader in the big light saber duel? Wait, you’re undecided?
>>> But the entire point is Trump isn’t courting that faction of voters anymore because his strategy is to jeopardize the very legitimacy of the election. Everything we’ve seen from him fucking with the USPS to mess up Biden’s expected advantages in the mail in vote just screams this fact. <<<
And yet, here the democrats are, encouraging people to vote by mail.
It's like watching the road runner paint the picture of a tunnel into the side of a mountain while wile e. coyote runs straight for the tunnel.
It could just be my own personal cohorts, but I know way too many people who think it's ok to stand on line to get groceries from trader joe's but voting at a polling station is a public safety bridge they can't cross.
Other than deeply at-risk people, it's really not going to be that hard to safely vote at a polling station. Wear a mask. Stand far away from the person in front of you. Wash your hands before you go in and after. Voila!
Four more years of trump are far worse for our public health than voting in person. Just fucking go to the polls like you always do.
When he steals this election because his voters went to the polls and ours used the USPS, I'm going to feel like I did that time I was 12 and my bike got stolen because I didn't lock it up outside the music store.
vader, vader, vader…
Kill the filibuster on day one. Then statehood for DC and PR, and throw in Guam and the US Virgin Islands while you’re at it. Eight new blue senators, sounds about right. Gonna need at least four more SCOTUS seats as well. Pass lots of legislation to undo all of the vote-fucking schemes that were designed by Republicans to keep people of color from voting. Do all of this while holding a giant middle finger aloft for all to see.
jk for office…
other than that – this seems to be about it:
that’s not much…
Meh. See my earlier comment. A legal challenge along the lines of Bush v. Gore may have been viable were the election to come down to just one or two states. That’s looking increasingly unlikely with him now trailing in WI & MI well beyond the margin of error and him in danger of losing one or more of the half dozen others that were solidly red in 2016,
The post election legal battle that you fear may well take place on a number of fronts. Each contested state would require its own separate court challenge. Trump’s campaign is effectively broke and he is personally facing nearly a half billion in loans coming due in the next few years so it’s hard to imagine how he will pay for the high-priced legal firepower he’ll need to challenge the results in so many jurisdictions.
As noted earlier, Trump has no one to blame but himself. His repeated efforts to sow doubt in the integrity of the election is not just intended for his supporters. It was also intended to have a chilling effect on Democrats by creating the impression that four more years of Trump is a fait accompli regardless of the final vote totals. It seems to be having the opposite effect, though, with increasing numbers of voters realizing that the best antidote for his gambit is to turn out en masse in as many places as possible. Again, had Trump gone through the motions of running a semi-normal campaign rather than loudly telegraphing his play, he might have been able to keep the vote close enough in a small enough number of states to make legal challenges workable. Now, with too many states in play along with the slow but steady bleeding of his support, Trump’s paths to victory keep dwindling.
Enjoyed this on Lebron. I have long said that who you play with shouldn’t matter that much. But then there is JJ Hickson.
Yon NBA Finals Prediction thread. http://knickerblogger.net/nba-finals-predictions-thread/
Greg Palast, whose diligent work on Republican electoral fraud dates back to 2000, makes the point that Trump doesn’t need win all these battleground states to make a farce out of the election so long as there is mayhem on Election Day. What he needs to do is make sure that the Republican dominated legislatures in FL, WI, and MI argue before the Supreme Court that they can’t certify the results of their elections in time for the electoral colleges to alot the requisite 270 votes for appointing anyone to the presidency. In that case, Trump can invoke the 12th amendment and have the House of Representatives, voting on a per state basis and with the same quorum requirements as under the original procedure, choose the President from the three highest receivers of electoral votes.
Again, this explains why Trump is making overt signals to right-wing goon squads like the Proud Boys to stand by on November 3rd. He’s looking for his own version of the Reichstag Fire that will allow him to consolidate political power in the face of a dwindling electoral base of support.
If that ankle is sprained as bad as it looked, Lakers in 4. Brutal.
Edit: he’s already back in the game…