(Friday, August 10, 2018 3:00:00 AM)
Catalina Cruz remembers arriving at JFK Airport from Colombia at just 9 years old with her single mother with one thing on their minds: Achieving the American Dream.
That memory came flooding back to Cruz, now 35, as she stood with hundreds of protesters at LaGuardia Airport in June waiting for…
(Friday, August 10, 2018 3:00:00 AM)
There is no guarantee that the Nashville police officer who fatally shot a fleeing suspect last month will serve time behind bars – even with the shooting captured on video.
Activists want Officer Andrew Delke to be held accountable in the July 26 shooting death of 25-year-old Daniel Hambrick.
(Friday, August 10, 2018 2:00:00 AM)
Since Wednesday night, Hamas has launched more than 150 rockets at Israel from the Gaza strip, killing one person and injuring 19 others. In response, the IDF targeted over 150 terrorist targets.
Hamas exclusively aims to kill and maim civilians in Israel, and Hamas rockets have repeatedly landed…
(Friday, August 10, 2018 2:00:00 AM)
The affordable housing crisis isn’t new, nor is the destabilizing influence of tenant harassment. City and state government alike have recognized this crisis and allocated billions to try to reverse the tide.
So why are bad actors like Kushner Companies, which has reportedly engaged in a systematic…
(Friday, August 10, 2018 2:00:00 AM)
An assistant basketball coach at Wake Forest University in North Carolina faces assault charges after punching a Boca Raton man and leaving him mortally injured on a New York street over the weekend, police said Thursday.
Jamill Jones, 35, surrendered to police early Thursday, with a lawyer at…
(Friday, August 10, 2018 1:05:00 AM)
When mortal enemies Andrew Cuomo and Bill de Blasio speak with one voice, listen. The warring governor and mayor are united in management and fiscal sanity against a cockamamie idea floated by would-be state chief executive Cynthia Nixon.
Change the state’s Taylor Law, she says, to let public employees…
(Friday, August 10, 2018 1:00:00 AM)
ALBANY — A coalition of more than 100 groups and individuals—including 16 who were wrongfully convicted —are urging Gov. Cuomo to sign a bill that would create a prosecutorial misconduct commission.
The state Legislature passed a bill earlier this year — over the objections of the state’s district…
(Friday, August 10, 2018 12:00:00 AM)
Manhattan: To the dimwits of The Academy: If you were smart, you’d have an enthralling awards show that most of the world wants to watch. But you don’t. Which is proof you’re not smart and have no clue what you’re doing.
Creating a new “Best Popular Film” category won’t draw any person I know to…
(Thursday, August 09, 2018 10:00:00 PM)
The principal of a suburban New Jersey high school arrested on child pornography charges Wednesday used a school computer to upload and view thousands of images of children, authorities said.
Edward Bonek, 48, the head of Pleasantville High School, used peer-to-peer software and a taxpayer-funded…
(Thursday, August 09, 2018 9:50:00 PM)
The father of an infant boy found dead in the East River Sunday is back in New York City and in police custody after he fled to Thailand.
James Currie, 37, of the Bronx, landed in John F. Kennedy Airport Thursday night, after he was detained by Thai authorities in Bangkok, police said. He’ll be…
(Thursday, August 09, 2018 9:40:00 PM)
JACKSON, Miss. — The management company of 270 KFC, Pizza Hut and Taco Bell franchises nationwide has agreed to provide sensitivity training at those outlets following a May incident at a KFC in Mississippi in which a deaf woman felt she was being mocked.
Disability Rights Mississippi, a nonprofit…
(Thursday, August 09, 2018 9:40:00 PM)
Everyone knows Eli Manning has a short memory, but this is ridiculous.
Thursday night, after No. 2 overall pick Saquon Barkley electrified MetLife Stadium with lightning quick jukes and bursts on his first-ever NFL carry, Manning cautioned not to overhype the rookie’s 39-yard rip.
“Just a run,…
(Thursday, August 09, 2018 9:00:00 PM)
Resiliency has been the word of the week for the Yankees.
After a deflating four-game sweep at Fenway Park, manager Aaron Boone’s young squad gutted out a three-game sweep over the White Sox in Chicago to keep above a quickly approaching wild-card scrap with Seattle and Oakland.
The Bombers’ bounce-back…
(Thursday, August 09, 2018 9:00:00 PM)
General Horoscope for August 10, 2018
Too much adrenaline in our bloodstream can prevent us from sleeping soundly now. The Moon’s shift into extroverted Leo at 12:17 am EDT stirs up our drive for self-expression. Unfortunately, the Moon opposes combative Mars and squares rebellious…
(Thursday, August 09, 2018 8:55:00 PM)
NASHVILLE, Tenn. — Tennessee carried out the execution Thursday of a man condemned for the 1985 rape and murder of a 7-year-old girl, marking the first time the state has applied the death penalty in nearly a decade.
Inmate Billy Ray Irick, 59, received a three-drug injection at a maximum-security…
(Thursday, August 09, 2018 8:45:31 PM)
LEVALLOIS-PERRET, France — A man rammed his car into a group of soldiers near Paris on Wednesday, injuring six, and then was cornered by police in a highway manhunt — the latest in what’s become a disturbingly familiar pattern of attacks targeting French security forces.
It’s unclear what motivated…
(Thursday, August 09, 2018 7:20:00 PM)
The chief of the Palisades Interstate Parkway Police was busted after trying to get cocaine delivered in the mail, according to published reports.
Michael Coppola, 43, was charged Thursday with trying to buy coke and having drug paraphernalia, the Bergen County Prosecutor’s Office told NJ.com.
(Thursday, August 09, 2018 7:00:00 PM)
Michael Avenatti, the bombastic lawyer representing porn star Stormy Daniels in her federal court fight to tell the story of her affair with President Trump, is exploring a 2020 bid for the White House, according to the Des Moines Register.
The pit bull litigator has been making…
(Thursday, August 09, 2018 6:25:00 PM)
A Brooklyn man who set more than a dozen small fires in Midtown returned to the scene of one of his arsons, where police were waiting for him, federal prosecutors said Thursday.
On Wednesday, 24-year-old Jamal Deese showed up at the Five Guys burger joint on W. 14th St. at Sixth Ave., a day after…
(Thursday, August 09, 2018 6:20:00 PM)
An angry white woman who identified herself as a Trump supporter called police Thursday morning to report a black state senator who was merely talking with voters outside a Brooklyn subway station.
Sen. Jesse Hamilton was speaking with constituents at the Parkside Ave. subway entrance in Prospect-Lefferts…
(Thursday, August 09, 2018 6:00:00 PM)
Laura Pausini is in high spirits these days despite being in the midst of a grueling world tour that began in July and will wind its way through South America, Mexico, the U.S. and Europe through the fall.
After more than a quarter century of bringing her brand of Latin pop and soulful ballads…
(Thursday, August 09, 2018 5:20:00 PM)
ST. LOUIS — Lunch was going to taste particularly good to Rickie Fowler.
Out early and having finished off an opening round of 5-under-par 65 that put him comfortably in the lead of the PGA Championship, Fowler could see the breeze beginning to ripple the flags at Bellerive Country Club.
(Thursday, August 09, 2018 5:05:00 PM)
The Los Angeles District Attorney’s sexual assault task force has added three new cases to its docket.
Allegations made against Anthony Anderson, Steven Seagal and Harvey Weinstein are all under investigation by the DA’s office, a spokesperson told the Daily News.
The Los Angeles Police Department…
(Thursday, August 09, 2018 4:55:00 PM)
Odell Beckham Jr. didn’t get a chance to join Saquon Barkley in all the fun Thursday night. And head coach Pat Shurmur said that was his plan the whole time for the star receiver coming back from season-ending ankle surgery last October.
“We want to be smart with his recovery coming back, and I…
(Thursday, August 09, 2018 4:35:00 PM)
The Trump administration acknowledged Thursday that 559 migrant children remain separated from their parents — even though the government had a court-ordered July 26 deadline to reunite all families shattered by the “zero tolerance” policy.
Government attorneys provided the new figure in a status…
(Friday, August 10, 2018 5:01:34 AM)
Sandor Szabo was punched on Sunday. He died on Tuesday. Jamill Jones was arrested on Thursday on an assault charge. The investigation is continuing.
(Thursday, August 09, 2018 10:51:11 AM)
Knicks and Rangers fans can stop dreaming. James Dolan isn’t going away. “We’re not going to sell,” Dolan said Thursday. The Madison Square Garden Company executive chairman said in June he was looking at a move to separate the Knicks and Rangers from the rest of the Madison Square Garden Company. As for where the…
105 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2018.08.10)”
@ 64 – HE GOT INTO A FIGHT WITH THE COACH IN PRACTICE LAST YEAR.
This is my beef the the NBA guaranteed contracts. Can you imagine one of us punching our boss at work and then suffer the punishment of getting paid THREE years worth of salary? 90% of Managers and Supervisor in America would get punched at least once a day. Genetic lottery baby winner, should have had the ability to suspended him permanently without pay & without a cap hit.
We have no idea what happened because the Knicks kept it under wraps.
Most likely they were shouting at each other and as they started to approach and get in each other’s face they were separated. My guess is that if Noah actually threw a punch Hornacek would have not have been at the next few games because he would have had some visible bruises…once he woke up.
You assuming he connected with his punch?
I’m with Maggie….
There’s always 2 sides of a story and we know neither of them. Note that Hornacek is no longer around. He was criticized by the organization for his poor communication skills.
As for the rules, remember that they are collectively bargained and also that this is the livelihood for the players. Most of the players have no other marketable skills.
My fear is that by stretching Noah, Perry will feel obligated to use the free cap space in 2019 to justify that move. Which is fine if a true star wants to come here. But what if Durant, Kyrie, and Butler all sign elsewhere? Then we’ll be sitting on a bunch of cap space that Perry mortgaged the future for. He’s not likely to say “Oh well, back to the drawing board” and roll that space over to 2020. He’s going to spend it on someone, anyone. That’s how you end up locked into James Johnson, Dion Waiters, and Kelly Olynyk and perpetual mediocrity for four years.
OK. Playbook seems to be the following.
1) Stretch Noah.
2) Move Timmy for space.
3) Throw in one of the following Mario/Burke/Kanter/ two 2nd round picks/ or swap 1st in 2020 and move Lee for space.
4) Put out an ad or for hire sign paying max money to play for Fiz in the NYC with KP, Knox & Frank.
5) Review candidates and hire the right talent.
6) Get a top 5 pick.
7) Win 50+ games and become a contender or win 39 games and get fired.
The only apparent value in waiving Noah Sept 1st would be for the roster spot for now.
@7 – right now I don’t think anyone takes Timmy without an extra asset. Maybe if he plays his ass off and ups his numbers/efficiency a chunk. But his contract is really bad – you’d have to be in a very specific cap position to have space or expiring a to match his deal AND to prefer taking it to having that space this summer.
We should under no circumstances offer a 1rp pick swap for moving Lee. No rebuilding team will want him and we could still be bad in 19/20 if we don’t add FA talent this year. Swapping a top 10 pick for one in the 20s is not a good look. One of the players you lost? Sure. I can see a contender in need of a back-up 1 taking a Lee and Burke package (or a THj and Burke package).
Timmy: 26yrs old @ $18M might not be so bad. Think Vlade at Sacramento will love him.
We should offer Lee to Utah for Alec Burks. Burks was bad last year but he’s expiring. Same salaries. CLee seems like a Utah type of player.
THjr has a 15% trade kicker making it just shy of 21 million in 19-20 for anyone we traded him to. He’s gonna be a Knick for the length of this contract. Mills should not be allowed near any contracts.
He’s only 26 but he’s also not that good and paid like a borderline all star. Sac we’re ready to pay Lavine who isn’t better, but is at least younger so who knows? But I can’t see it.
@11 – That would be a good move. Expiring contracts help us clear cap space. Anything we do to clear cap space and add picks is good.
I for one eagerly await the knickerblogger debate about stretching Timmy on September 1st 2019. I’m getting my “no, that would be stupid” in ahead of time!
I’m already in on the Knickerblogger 2022 “Should we stretch Kyrie” argument
By the way, there’s been some talk here and among Knicks fans in general about signing two max free agents next offseason. This is technically possible, but we’d really have to strip the team down to the bones to open up that much space. We’d have to:
-Renounce every free agent except KP
-Trade both Lee and THJ for either expirings this season or into a team’s cap space next offseason (this would almost certainly cost at least one first rounder and possibly two)
-Not have a 2019 first round pick cap hold, either via trading the pick or drafting a stash
-Waive Thomas and Dotson’s non-guaranteed contracts
Even then, we’d only have room for one full max and one 7-9 year max if my admittedly non-rigorous calculations are correct. The only good news is I think we’d still have the full MLE, the BAE, and the room exception after signing two max free agents and giving Porzingis his max. It would be a hell of a lot to do and I don’t think I’d do it for anything short of Butler and Durant.
Name one player The Knicks have stretched.
I should add that, ironically enough, it only really makes sense to be aggressive in the free agent market next offseason if it is in fact the plan to sign two max free agents. If we sign one, than we’re just about stuck with what we have now + one max free agent for the foreseeable future. The current team + one hopefully high draft pick + Kyrie Irving does not look like a contender. I guess if the free agent is Durant there’s a chance we could sniff contention but even that is contingent on all of young guys getting a lot better.
Phil Jackson and Steve Mills really did a god damn number on this franchise with the Noah, Lee, and THJ deals.
THCJ’s 5 Pillars of Knicks success:
1) Stop signing overpriced and/or old players unless you have a 55-win core and it’s time to push the chips in.
2) Stop trading away young players for practically nothing.
3) Stop drafting players based on “upside,” stockpile picks, and draft BPA for 3-5 consecutive years.
4) When you make a mistake (i.e. ignoring any of the above), don’t double-down by trying to trade, extend or stretch those liabilities by including future assets. Accept the cost as sunk.
5) Throw James Dolan in the fucking East River.
I’m trying to imagine a world in which Ainge lets Kyrie walk without a sign-and-trade, or lets him walk at all. Considering that the Celtics are all but a lock to win 60 and will be the better of the teams in the Conference Finals, I don’t see how Kyrie leaves Boston when it’s clearly “his” team.
Then again, I didn’t think there was a player stupid enough to force an exit from a prime-LeBron team, especially after LeBron carried your overrated team’s ass to a position where you were able to make the most iconic shot in a franchise’s history en route to winning a championship over what would have been considered the 1b GOAT team in the 2016 Warriors.
Also I didn’t think that there were people so stupid that they still believe the earth is flat, soooo—
@ 21 – Jowles…maybe he just didn’t like Lebron and wanted to go somewhere else? Maybe he knew Lebron was a goner after the last season? Maybe he won his chip and was ready to be somewhere else besides Cleveland?
I got one for you – not sure how I got there, but, question came to mind:
of our young talent (24 and under), whom do you think will have the best NBA career…
I wanna say frank, I’m doubtful KP will stay healthy, I just don’t know enough about mitchrob – I thought deandre jordan when I saw him, I don’t if that’s right…
he seems like he has better offensive skills…
the first person whom came to mind – knox…he’s one of the very few, very few players we have that can actually get to the basket…
I can see him putting in effort (didn’t seem low energy when I watched him play) to play okay defense, rebound once in while (he likes to score, so, he may not ever be the best defensive rebounder), and physically develop into an all star level player…
I wouldn’t bother, he smells like a floater.
@23, I like Frank but he’s a support guy. Hopefully an effective support guy and you need those players but a perennial all-star he’s not. He could be an extremely useful guy on a cheap second contract if he pulls together enough offense. Knox, who the hell knows at this point, he’s a long way from anything. I expect a streaky scorer who needs the ball and plays mediocre defense (so basically THJ with slightly better scoring at the rim coupled with more selfishness) but he could certainly be more efficient than I expect. Unless he improves his stamina significantly KP will be an also ran, even if he comes back healthy and improves his shot selection. He’ll still probably be our best player just from his defense, but only being good for 1/4 of the season is small drawback. MitchRob could be flat out amazing, but he’s got a ton of stuff to learn that’s basic basketball knowledge for most rookies coming into the league. Chances are he won’t make it and becomes easily handled by any team that watches a bit of tape.
But I’m hopeful. About this season’s postgame press conferences. Fiz don’t let me down!
5) Throw James Dolan in the East River with a bag full of bricks tied to his ankle.
There I fixed it
And the team is subsequently purchased by a consortium led by Isiah Thomas.
As Grocer eloquently points out in 24, literally zero of our young players have been productive in the NBA. As such it’s pretty ridiculous we’re even talking about what free agents we want to bring in as soon as next offseason. I think the correct approach is to sit on the cap space barring Kevin Durant wanting to sign here to be honest.
Damn you’re that down on all of our young players? Why even follow the team? KP is 22 years old. The book on him is not yet written. Frank is 19. Knox is 19. Mitchel is 19.
Way to make me depressed. Why even bother trying to develop these kids then?
And you were up on Andrea Bargnani. Don’t cast stones.
Why are you such douchebag to people on this blog?
I have loved Durant’s game since he was at Texas, but I’d still be reticent about giving him a max contract from age 31 through 34. He’s the final piece to a championship contender, not a building block for a team with literally nothing else. He’d basically be Giannis, but older, on the Knicks. 28,000 minutes played, plus another 5,000 in the playoffs.
His shooting probably won’t fade much, but I am totally fine with a real rebuild, rather than one that greatly rewards an aging player for past performance instead of future projections.
Why are you calling for a purity test on Knicks fandom?
Louis Orr was actually 6’2” 230 lbs when he joined the team in 1982.
I actually didn’t say anything about what I personally think of these guys. I stated an objective fact. Porzingis’ total production has been decidedly average (.102/.100/.099 WS48s, 0.2/0.2/-0.7 BPMs). Frank showed some flashes as a rookie but I don’t think anyone would argue he was actually a productive NBA player. Knox and Robinson have never played an NBA game. You can quibble about whether or not all-encompassing metrics fully capture Porzingis’ defensive impact but there’s a pretty clear picture painted overall.
If you want my opinions, Porzingis will become more productive as long as he can stay healthy, I’m a lot less certain about Frank but I think he’ll stick in the rotation, Robinson will be pretty good, and Knox will be a bigger THJ. My point is that none of these things are guaranteed to happen, and some of them aren’t so rosy even if they do happen, so why are we in a rush to surround this group with expensive free agents who will essentially cut off our supply of high-end draft talent? Why don’t we simply wait until we have multiple certifiably productive, cost-controlled, young players before we start doing that?
@28, I’m actually pretty excited about the kids, other than Knox. But I’m not gonna build myself unrealistic expectations. This season should be fun, I like watching a young team. But I’d much rather be pleasantly surprised if they over achieve than build what’s basically a fantasy that they’re not going to live up to.
I loved that 14 win season, doing development even on a small scale and looking to the future. I watched every game I could. Then we signed Lee and Noah, traded our possibilities for Rose. That shit didn’t smell so sweet. Maybe it’s just getting older that keeps it fresh, or maybe I’m finally getting wise, but I’m not going to emotionally invest in this kind of situation again if I can help it. I can love the Knicks without being a believer. Anything more is self-abuse.
And this, every little bit of this. Wait till you actually have a team to which the addition of a star free agent can reasonably result in a playoff run BEFORE you add said free agent. Chase actual success, not available names.
So much of Knicks fandom freaked out that Kyrie might want to come here. This guy thinks the sphericalness of the earth is up for debate! He forced his way out of a team with the greatest player in the NBA! Vague indications of interest from this guy, who clearly thinks through, caused so many folks to assume it’s a sure thing. It’s just, it’s ridiculous.
Why is anyone worried about chasing big-name free agents at all right now? Clearly the Knicks are not going to make any moves of consequence for now. So before we know anything about what’s right or wrong for the future, why not see what we have in the first couple of months?
Sure, that’s so easy! Because the BPA has a sticker on his back that says Certified BPA, right?
Anyone else here think that the Spurs braintrust is in the early stages of dementia?
Signed LMA to an extension
Gave Rudy Gay a $10 mill contract
Traded a top-5 player in the NBA for Demar DeRozan
Let Kyle Anderson walk
Think Dejounte Murray is good
Pop should retire like now before his head explodes trying to coach this mess.
Not to toot my own horn, but I called it:
June 25, 2015 at 6:28 pm
Wait, the Knicks traded Hardaway for a 1st rounder?? That’s gotta be too good to be true, right? I mean, we are still the New York Knicks, right? Let me think, how can this end up horribly wrong for us? Hmm… what about this: Hardaway plays out his rookie contract in Atlanta, then we re-sign him for $19,000,000 a year, only to have to stretch waive him through 2023 to clear cap space.”
@21 It’s a bitch, right? I mean it’s great in the abstract that the power is shifting from management to labor as far as stuff like this goes, but it seems like NBA players might possibly be the only group of people worse at making NBA personnel decisions than NBA front offices are. They all still love Melo for god’s sake.
@28, 30 I don’t think an inability to differentiate between hopes and expectations is a prerequisite for sports fandom but concede that there are a lot of people who wouldn’t disagree with you.
@38 You can read BPA as please just at least stop taking players with bad metrics or blank track records. Surely the fanboys can catch feels for somebody with some kind of demonstrated productivity, right? It’s not a straight either/or.
@42 OK so you would have drafted who instead of Knox? Mikal Bridges? (never mind that PHX made one of the stupidest trades ever after the fact.) Knox was just as likely the BPA as anyone drafted after him.
Frankly, I don’t think anyone can argue that the Knicks have drafted badly relative to other teams. They just haven’t drafted high or often enough.
All Knicks draft picks this decade, combined, are at about 8 VORP. I don’t think it’s hard to find other teams that have drafted that poorly, because the Kings and Cavs exist, but to say that the Knicks are somehow above the median? Get outta here.
Of course, we can pin that on virtually never having a high draft pick, but that argument only works if you think other teams are good at identifying talent in the high lottery. Not true.
Even if we eliminate all of the players drafted this decade who put up negative VORPs in their career (leaving Porzingis, THJ, Fields, and Shumpert), Nikola “Not As Good As Porzingis” Jokic alone has put up >5 VORP more than all of them in his career. And Jokic is 23.
The Knicks are not good at any of the basic functions of an NBA front office, not even drafting. And I find it hilarious that you’ll do mental gymnastics to avoid admitting, “Yes, THCJ, the franchise would be in a better position if you had randomly selected from the players with the best advanced stats still available on the DraftExpress big board when the Knicks were selecting.” You know it’s true. The bar isn’t that hard to clear when you’re talking about a franchise that can neither identify nor retain talent.
If you go back 20 years, the best players the Knicks have drafted have been David Lee, Trevor Ariza and Danilo Gallinari. Ariza and Gallinari had most of their best seasons for other teams. Perhaps Porzingis will end up being a better player than some of those guys, but the jury is out on that.
That is a fucking pathetic draft record over a 20 year period. Just pitiful really. I honestly do not know where the “Knicks are good at the draft” thing comes from. Wee-Bey said it best: #TKDFUTDA
I sense MUCH cherry-picking from @45 and @46.
I’m talking more about picking something close the consensus BPA, not to how the player turned out. I’m also including guys that technically other teams drafted for us. Jowles, you more than anyone have said that that other than very few players, the draft is a crap shoot. The only guy that you heavily touted as a pick for the Knicks was Kenneth Faried, who always sucked on defense, never represented value beyond his rookie contract and is washed up at age 27…and Shumpert was certainly not considered a reach and had a better career than most of the guys picked after him. You called Porzingis hot garbage and would definitely have drafted WCS over him. The entire fucking world passed on Jokic. Were you guys advocating for drafting him?
And why are we suddenly using the highly questionable VORP as our stat of choice these days?
From the time Perry joined, this team has been about BPA, whether by the draft, waiver wire, or free agency. Consider the following sets of upgrades that were done within days of each other:
1. Melo for Kanter, McD and 2nd-> MitchRob
2. WHG, 2nd and Sessions for Troy Williams, Trey Burke and Mudiay
3. Beasley and Jack for Hezonia, Allen and Vonleh.
4. Drafted Knox and MitchRob over anybody else remaining on the draft board.
In every one of those clustered transaction sets, the Knicks got younger, longer, more athletic, and/or got player(s) with a higher ceiling or return going forward.
Why cluster those transaction sets? Because, give the short spans between them, I suspect that each part of the set was done once the others became available. That takes foresight and patience.
This comment is fine, but every time someone talks about getting younger, longer and more athletic I remember that Isaiah said exactly that when he took over the team. The thing is, he actually did make the team younger and more athletic. But the team was still lousy. I worry that’s what is going to happen here too.
He did and he didn’t. Among his biggest (and/or most expensive) acquisition were Eddy Curry, Jamal Crawford and Zach Randolph, none of whom were renowned for their athleticism. Steph was, though, as were Lee and Nate and Ariza (who was then shipped out for the rotting corpse of Stevie Franchise).
I agree that his talent acquisition record was mixed, but compared to what he started with, his players were better. I read once that everyone who was on the team when he took over was out of the league within one or two years.
It’s not necessarily going to turn out badly, but reading those words brings back bad memories.
Yeah, the take on Isiah at the time seemed to be that he usually got the best player in any trade (at the time, anyway; see Ariza/Francis), but that the Knicks kept getting worse because he was giving away too many picks and other useful assets, overvalued certain aspects of their games (Steph’s ability to get to the hoop, Curry’s low-post game), and didn’t give any real thought to how the pieces would fit together (pairing Curry with Z-Bo).
What an extended fiasco. And that’s before we get into the sexual harassment case and the other evidence that Isiah is a bad guy in addition to being a bad GM.
I’m in the camp that thinks there’s a difference between skill set and statistical production.
Skill set is what you are capable of doing at a high level (a checklist).
Statistical production is a combination of your skill set, your role on the team, and your decision making.
I still think Porzingis has a chance to be a great player (or at least close) because he already has a high level skill set. What has held back his personal stats has been a lack of strength inside, the mid range shots Phils system stressed, and his own decision making. I’d way rather have a young player with high level skills that needs to get stronger and be coached better than the player that’s putting up better numbers now with a very limited skill set.
That’s why Knox was a bit of revelation in summer league. The kid has skills. It’s on Fizdale to make both of them more productive.
I vote for “they were overrated to begin with”.
There’s a LOT of randomness in the draft and even in acquiring young players in trades or from the G-League. In a game with some randomness like basketball, some of the participants are going to have great or poor records that have little or nothing to do with that teams ability to recognize and develop talent.
The one thing The Spurs were ahead of the curve on was looking for overseas talent.
Other than that, Robinson’s injury landed them Duncan (which almost any competent team could have parlayed into a championship or two) and they were probably reasonably competent and very lucky on a few other decisions. People just assumed their luck was skill. What we are seeing now is the long run – a kind of mean reversion reflecting their actual ability to measure productivity.
And for the record, last year when they were still in the heat of the battle and everyone still loved them I said we were about to watch the Spurs spontaneously combust because of all the bad decisions they made in the last few years. Pop will get something out of this team because he’s still a very good coach, but they have work to do.
Isiah had the fatal flaw of believing that he could coach up dumb players. Steph Marbury was the perhaps most physically talented PG of his era, but was a complete head case relative to his talent. Same story with Eddy Curry, and Zach and Jamal. It’s the opposite philosophy of Ainge or Buford (until recently), who acquire smart players that only need to be coached up strategically and technically. You can live with a dumb player in a prominent role if you have a transcendent player and other smart players around him. (See: JR Smith)
Dumb players tend to stay dumb. Bargnani is a classic example of that. Anthony Randolph and Renaldo Balkman are good examples as well. Beasley seems to have smartened up a bit in a bench scorer role, but not enough to count on. Nobody liked that trade, but some of us hoped that he could get healthy and be coached up. That’s okay to do if you are playing around the margins (2nd round picks, minimum salary pickups, etc.) but you should never give up assets or forego smart and reasonably athletic players for obviously dumb players. Mudiay is an ok flyer at his age for this team, but not at the cost of a 2nd rounder.
You could even put Amare and Carmelo in the dumb player category relative to their role and salary.
One of the things that makes me more optimistic is that Trey Burke seems like a very smart player. He rarely turns the ball over and demonstrated a nice balance of passing and efficient scoring, of transition and half-court offense. He may be a defensive liability, but I think he will help bring out the best in our younger players on the offensive end.
How in the holy living hell was my post at 46 a cherry pick? You want to go ahead and list some players drafted by the Knicks in the last 20 years other than Lee, Ariza and Gallinari who have gone on to have long, productive NBA careers? Go ahead, please list these other players, I await your response.
Channing Frye. Served, bish!!!
Here’s our last ten years of drafting (including players acquired via draft-day trades)
2009: Drafter Jordan Hill, not an abjectly terrible pick (see: Jonny Flynn) but very mediocre.
2010: No 1st rounder, drafted Fields, Rautins, and (via MIL) Jordan in 2nd round. Can’t see how anyone could fault that draft for where we were picking.
2011: Picked Shumpert over subsequently several better players but still got a legit NBA rotation player at #19.
2012: no first rounder, the original KP in round 2 was a fine draft and stash pick, and KOQ is the only relevant player picked after him.
2013: Tim Hardaway Jr @ #24 reasonably good pick
2014: no 1st rounder, Cle, Thanasis, and Louis were all reasonable picks (Cle was projected as a late first rounder, nobody picked after Thanasis mattered in the NBA.
2015: KP was a GREAT pick by any reasonable standard (5th in VORP, might have more market value than anyone in the draft other than KAT despite his ACL tear.) Everyone was ecstatic about trading TH2 for the #19 pick but that pick was probably ill-advised. Willy was universally lauded as a 2nd round pick. Overall a great draft for the franchise, even though we went on to stupidly jettisoned Willy and included Grant in a dumb trade.
2016: no picks
2017: The Jury’s out on Frank, I obviously didn’t like the pick but he was a consensus top 12 pick at #8, certainly not a reach. Dotson is so far better than anyone drafted after him.
2018: too early to tell, but no serious analyst is second-guessing the Knicks at this point.
So I don’t get how anyone can say that we have drafted badly in the past 10 years.
Also, Hardaway, Shumpert and Nene. [Did we really draft Nene? It says so in Basketball reference] If you look at the reference below, you will see that the Knicks had a total of 9 lottery picks (top sixteen) in the past twenty years. So with the picks we had, Lee, Ariza, Frye, Robinson, Galinari, Shumpert, Hardaway is not a bad haul. The only really busts were Jordan Hill, Mike Sweetney, and Fredric Weiss.
The Knicks drafting has been fine. That’s why everyone points to it as a strength. We’ve actually been reasonable at it. That, compared to every other aspect of this shit show, has been a relative strength. The draft is a crapshoot. Sometimes the BPA may be a player that was good in workouts but not so much in college. Knox is OK with me even if he doesn’t work out (see that pun there…funny…)
If the Knicks would have just had a first and 2nd round pick every year, they would have hit on enough players to assemble a decent squad.
It’s been documented time and time again. Our problem has been not valuing picks, not getting bad players through the draft. In our present crop of young players we may have some rotation guys going forward who can contribute on a playoff team, but we must keep valuing the right process.
I do agree with the cock on his pillars, including the idea of BPA. Nothing wrong with relying on larger more meaningful sample sizes.
Ultimately, it comes down to “the fat man upstairs”. I’ve always thought that if Steinbrenner could get it together JD could, but I’m not so sure…Seems like as long as he’s running things there’ll be fatal errors keeping us capped out, out of the playoffs and out of the top 5 in the draft. His little song this week reminded me what a true creep he really is.
Lee was taken at 30 or so
I think Frye was our lottery pick that year and Nate was 20 or so
Didn’t look it up…
ZERO All-Stars drafted in last 20 years. KP is the only exception. Give me a break with five or six marginal role players with 12 year careers.
I agree with your view on dumb players. That’s why I put such a premium on work ethic combined with a high basketball IQ. Smart people that work really hard usually figure out a way to get good results even when they aren’t especially gifted (I still have a lot of faith in Frank for that reason).
Right now I’d say KP has the work ethic part down but he’s taking awhile to figure out the whole shot selection and passing thing. Personally, I think it’s at least possible Melo was a bad influence on him. You come to NY as a kid and Melo is a superhero. You are going to learn from him and mimic his game in some areas. He has to unlearn all the bad stuff.
Eh, The Knicks draft well relative to the position they actually draft in. The Knicks problem is that they should have never been in such poor draft positions relative to their actual performance. And not having 4 first round picks in the past 10 years significantly weakened the team.
Exactly, which is why I said this in @44:
Frankly, I don’t think anyone can argue that the Knicks have drafted badly relative to other teams. They just haven’t drafted high or often enough.
Other teams have been “luckier” (Jokic, Butler, Gobert, Green, etc.) more than “better.” And lots of teams have been worse relative to where they drafted.
Jowles, if you had been in charge of nothing else but drafting over the last 10 years, do you think the team (draft-pick wise only, not including whether those picks were subsequently traded) would be better of right now? And if the answer is yes, please show evidence.
(actually it feels silly to be arguing this, since i am pretty fucking sure you agree that as far as the Knicks FO ineptitude goes, drafting poorly is at the bottom of the list.)
I don’t why its difficult to understand that we’ve done well with the few good draft picks we’ve actually had.
KP was our first top 5 pick since Ewing.
The following is from a Yankee blog. Has to be the same guy from Knickerblogger fame!:
Ted Nelson Thetrophy • 4 hours ago
Who should they have gotten? The big issue, to me, is that whoever they got would likely be out of a job in about a month. It’s a temporary hole, and if in a month or so Judge and Frazier come back and Stanton can play the field… where do you stick this guy? It starts to limit your options for guys who really make sense. Or you end up hurting your team in future years just for about a month of play in 2018, for a guy that’s probably not even playing in the playoffs.
Maybe someone who hits well enough to slide over to play or platoon at 1B? But a guy who can play OF and hit like a 1B is probably close to a star player. (Or he’s Tyler Austin and not necessarily a huge all around upgrade over Robinson.)
Maybe someone with options so you can send him to AAA if the team is healthy before September 1? But how many teams are trading cheap, young players with options who are materially better than Shane Robinson without asking for a lot in return?
Maybe some replacement level 4th/5th OF who can play all 3 OF positions and hit a tiny bit? That’s where we get into an improvement on Robinson, sure, but an improvement that’s probably worth a fraction of a win in a month or so of playing time.
Because the evidence says otherwise?
@54 I agree that there is a good chance KP becomes @ very good/great player. He obviously has some skills and a very rare combination of athleticism relative to his length and height. It is up to the coaching staff to get him to maximize his strengths on the court (i.e get inside more and use that length for scoring and ahem a little more rebounding).
The other thing holding him back, and the most troubling thing, is his lack of stamina. Playing at a high level for 8 weeks out of the season and then fading is not going to cut it.
@61, Steinbrenner was exiled for a few years, allowing Gene Michael to start a real rebuild, leading to the 90s dynasty.
Silver needs to do a Steinbrenner or Sterling on Dolan, clean house, and install Theo Epstein as PBO. As long as Dolan stays, this will never change.
Okay, you have spent the last 14 months railing on this pick non-stop, patting yourself on the back constantly about how “right” you were about it, to the point where your screen name should be “Z-Man, The Guy Who Hated The Ntilikina Pick And Was Totes Right About It.”
Now because that doesn’t suit the argument you’re making it’s “meh, wasn’t such a bad pick.”
@72 So you would rate the Knicks below average in terms of drafting?
The Knicks are pretty good at drafting, but certainly not great. I think they have had fewer straight-up misses than average but other than KP they haven’t had many home runs either. A lot of singles and doubles and back in the days of Isiah a couple impressive hits with Ariza in the 2nd round and Lee at pick 30 but that was a long time ago.
If Frank, Knox, and Robinson all become above average starters or one of them becomes a star then we will have done well but the jury is still very much out on all of them.
JK47 I don’t understand why you felt it was necessary to take a personal shot at me. Oh yeah, I forgot, you’re a (deleted.) Funny how you ignored the part that says “obviously I didn’t like the pick.” Most of my vitriol has been aimed at a small set of Frank uber-fans (Ntilakilla in particular and Bruno at times) and has been about my doubts about Frank ever being an effective PG (which you seem to agree with, right?) I have also said repeatedly and consistently that as a Knicks fan I hope I’m wrong (as I have been many times about many things, just like you and every other longtime poster here) and that I agree that it is too early to make a definitive judgment on how good Frank will ultimately be, although I’m more pessimistic than most at this point.
That’s separate from the discussion about a) how the Knicks have drafted relative to other teams, given their choices at where they picked, and b) where there actual drafting stacks up in their list of FO issues over the years. In the context of that argument, he wasn’t a reach, just not a pick that I personally liked or would have made.
If you are arguing that the Knicks suck at drafting, then you have really lost the plot.
(1) Have had few picks because of historically bad asset strategy
(2) Have had few high-position picks because of a lack of patience and long-term strategy
(3) Have not re-signed a rookie they had under rookie-scale contract since Charlie Ward
Instead of taking total VORP, here’s the list of draft picks since 2010 in best seasons according to VORP:
Hernangomez (drafted for the Knicks by PHI) 0.7 VORP
Again, I ask for evidence that the Knicks are good at finding value with their opportunities.
If we’re talking about the era before that, we can point to Gallo, Lee, Frye, Chandler, Nene and Ariza — all excellent values, given the rate of success in the draft.
None of these players were valued by the organization, and they either walked in free agency or were used as sweeteners for “superior” players like Steve Francis and Carmelo Anthony. The Knicks traded Ariza to get Francis and then packaged Frye to get rid of him the next season!
Let me put it this way. If you go to an estate sale and you think you spot a Faberge egg for a few bucks, and you buy it and promptly walk down the street and trade it for an Egg McMuffin, are you really that good at dealing?
You’re making an obtuse argument that is not refuting the main point being made at all. Tell you what, if you can demonstrate that the Knicks picks have a statistical profile that is below average for where their players were picked, I’ll concede your point.
I don’t think anyone is arguing that they are bad at valuing players, just that they’ve been decent with the draft itself.
Did you just give me a “prove it’s not true” argument?
The Knicks have had mediocre draft position in draft after draft for decades, and they have gotten just the kind of mediocre return in the draft that you would expect. They might not be “bad” at the draft considering where they tend to pick, but they’re not “good” either. The record speaks for itself: 20 years of draft picks has yielded them Porzingis, Ariza, Gallinari and Lee, and a whole lot of guys who are either journeymen or busts. You can look at just about any franchise in the league over that period and find better results, even the dumb ones like the Kings. Just about every team hits on a dartboard pick every now and then the way the Knicks did with Ariza and Lee.
I just don’t know where “the Knicks are good at drafting” comes from. It’s one of those things like “Dane Cook is funny” or “tax cuts increase tax revenue,” a thing that is obviously false on its face but is nonetheless accepted as some kind of truism.
The Knicks are bad at the draft but decent at drafting. When they have a pick they are good, not great, at getting value commensurate to the pick. I’d give them a B grade on the picks they actually had. What they are terrible at is maximizing the draft by keeping draft picks, trading for draft picks, moving up, or down, or simply getting a better pick by not committing to teams destined to win 35 games. Unfortunately having better and more picks is more important than being a little above average at selecting players with your mediocre and infrequent picks.
FWIW – 82games.com did a version of this analysis in 2008 for the 20 drafts up to then based on counting stats in main categories vs expected average for a given pick. The Knicks came in dead last.
Of course counting stats not the right measure and last ten years are missing. But if the Knicks are above average at drafting, it’s a relatively recent phenomenon.
@85 well said. Obviously too challenging of a concept for some here.
I listed most of the Knicks draft day decisions in @59. Kindly tell me which conclusions you take issue with (other than typos like #19 for Shump instead of #17.)
I think it would have gone like this:
2008: Marreese Speights
2009: Ty Lawson or Dejuan Blair
2010: No 1st Round Pick
2011: Kenneth Faried
2012: No 1st Round Pick
2013: Reggie Bullock
2014: No 1st Round Pick
Making a slew of “reasonable” picks that didn’t really pan out isn’t really the same as being “good at the draft.” This is kind of turning into a semantics thing here. Sure, Jordan Hill was a “reasonable” pick. A rhesus monkey could have made that pick. He was one of the guys projected to go in that range. A team that was “good at the draft” might have taken DeMar Derozan, or Jrue Holiday, or Jeff Teague instead though.
And no, I’m not going to make the argument “I would have taken Derozan” or something like that. I’m just a schnook on the internet, not an NBA GM. I’m an armchair basketball enthusiast. I would think an organization that is supposedly so good at the draft would be able to perform better than a dude making snarky comments on a blog, that’s not the issue. I don’t know if I would have taken Derozan in that situation. Hindsight is 20/20 blah blah blah.
I guess you can say the Knicks haven’t made too many cringeworthy awful picks given where they’ve selected. But really, they’re not particularly “good” at making draft picks.
Lol all this argument is telling me is that for the love of God we need to tank and tank correctly for once.
Ahhh, don’t forget 2015; Willie Cauley-Stein
Z-man, #1 Endowment Effect Sufferer: ignoring the stats to suit his narrative since 2010.
For about two years I have wanted to call Z-Man a troll. His comments feel a little like Reub. He spams the board a ton. His arguments are full of logical fallacies. He won’t back down off his points. He’s like a guy who supports Trump because he wants to solidify his contrarian credentials.
Here I go. So excited.
Z-Man is a troll.
@94 who the fuck are you?!
Even this thread demonstrates how asinine your comment is. see: @75
Again, please humor me with a critique of @59, O Mr. “Porzingis is hot garbage, I would have picked WCS with our only top-5 pick since Ewing.”
@90 I again refer you to Ben R in @85. If that doesn’t explain it simply enough for you, I give up.
But my point was qualified with “relative to other teams.” So the question is not whether there is a more reliable method to draft players than the Knicks used, but whether other teams are using better methods. The Spurs clearly are. Who else? Please name them.
Nah, you won’t do that. You’d rather smugly cite Jokic (and his amazing defense) as an example of proficiency in draft decision-making, even though in 2013 the same team (with Masai at the helm) drafted and then immediately traded Rudy Gobert for the great Erick Green, and the guy who drafted Jokic also drafted McDermott 30 picks earlier and then drafted Mudiay at #7 the following year.
You’re actually doing a “prove god doesn’t exist” argument on me. Until you supply evidence for your initial claim — that the Knicks are better than average at drafting for value — I’m not responding to shit.
Wait, I found a table of VORP by pick!
These numbers are the average two-year max VORP of each draft position since 1984. I’m going to use his “pick trade value” because it smooths the curve of draft pick value, trying to fix the imbalances of a few strong (or weak) players in a given draft position (and suggesting that an earlier pick, as we know, is always better).
#4 6.3 vs. Porzingis 1.2 VORP
#8 4.8 vs. Ntilikina -0.8 VORP
#24 1.7 vs. Hardaway 0.9 VORP
#39 0.7 vs. Fields 1.5 VORP (lmaooooooo)
#17 2.4 vs. Shumpert 0.9 VORP
Now go to bed.
BRAVO. Good night, folks. Be sure to tip your waitress.
@99 so just one question…is this the average over a player’s entire career? Because if not, Porzingis is 21, Ntilikina is 20 and Hardaway is 26. Maybe it’s possible that these guys have their best years in front of them? And the guy who surpassed his value (and therefore is your example of a great pick) sucked his way out of the league at age 26. So yeah, great rebuttal.
And GianaDani, I have been laying off of your commentary since it’s generally so lame it doesn’t even merit discussion.
I’m with Z-man on this one. The point isn’t how KP stacks up against other #4 picks (especially when Jowles cheats by having VORP for their whole career, which is BS). The point is where they stack up in that particular draft. It’s pretty freaking easy to point to a Manu or Jokic in almost every draft and say See, they missed! Except every other team in the league missed, too. There are ALWAYS outliers. The real question is how the player stacks up asking all available players. By and large, the Knicks picked one of the best 2 or 3 players, which given the enormous variability of the draft, is pretty good. Did they pick the best player every time? No – though in recent years, both KP and Willy are arguably so. (For the record, I wanted WCS too.) But they didn’t pick an Anthony Bennett, either.
I mean, an argument about what they did with those players after they picked them? Sure. I’m on record as hating the Willy trade. And the fact they rarely had a high pick to begin with? Definitely. I’m not a”winning culture” believer (mostly), since players you get at 3 or 4 contribute a lot more to a winning culture than players you get at 8 or 9. I wish we had tanked hard and drafted higher. But actually drafting? The Knicks do OK.
@102 well put, rama.
WCS could still end up having the better career than Porzingis, too early to tell.
And I didn’t assemble that list to prove Jowles a charlatan. Just to objectively compare the Knicks picks vs the “advanced stat bot” picks during those years. It doesn’t appear there is a sliding doors parallel story where the advanced stat bot guides the Knicks to a future via the draft. Lawson, Blair, Bullock, or Speights wouldn’t have been much different from what we got out of Gallinari, Hill, or Hardaway. But Faried was a lot better than Shumpert during that small window where the Knicks fielded a decently competitive team, so who knows what may have happened differently in 2012…
But to me, the problem the Knicks have had, it seems, isn’t that they draft poorly relative to other teams. It’s that they simply don’t draft enough, relative to other teams.
It’s kind of silly because the Knicks drafts have been done by a bunch of different front offices, it’s not monolithic. With the draft such a crap shoot and so little stability we can’t really say with certainty whether any given front office was good or bad, the sample size is very small and the volatility is very high. But nobody seems to be all that good at it tbh. Golden State put together a great run for a few years. Philly made most of theirs count when it mattered. There’s not much consistency. How do you even define ‘average’ for drafting ability?
Anyway, Mills/Perry have made exactly two picks. We probably won’t know if our new dynamic duo are at good at drafting till they’ve got several drafts under their belt and and we’ve had a few years on top of that to evaluate. By the time we know, they’ll probably be gone.