Knicks Morning News (2015.10.26)

  • [New York Post] First Mets, then Knicks? Carmelo Anthony sees similarities (Mon, 26 Oct 2015 01:18:12 -0400)

    If the Mets can do it, why not the Knicks? Carmelo Anthony, on Sunday, said he finds the Mets' rags-to-riches trip to the World Series "inspiring” and sees similarities in…

  • [New York Post] Knicks’ Afflalo coming to grips with actual injury timeline (Mon, 26 Oct 2015 01:07:49 -0400)

    Knicks guard Arron Afflalo insisted he is doing, and would continue to do, everything to get back on the court for the Knicks as soon as possible. He even said…

  • [New York Times] Timberwolves Coach Saunders Dies at Age 60 (Mon, 26 Oct 2015 02:48:28 GMT)

    Minnesota Timberwolves president of basketball operations and head coach Flip Saunders has died at the age of 60 after a battle with cancer, the National Basketball Association (NBA) team said on Sunday.

  • [New York Times] Flip Saunders, Who Led Timberwolves’ Ascent, Dies at 60 (Mon, 26 Oct 2015 01:29:55 GMT)

    The Minnesota team had recently rehired its former coach in the hope that he could once again turn the franchise around.

  • [New York Times] N.B.A. Game of the Week: New Orleans at Golden State (Mon, 26 Oct 2015 00:11:19 GMT)

    No matter how good Anthony Davis is individually, the Pelicans have yet to transform themselves into a really impressive unit.

  • [New York Daily News] Knicks’ Carmelo Anthony sees similarities with Mets success (Mon, 26 Oct 2015 04:58:56 GMT)

    It wasn’t long ago that another New York sports team was selling hope over substance, building around youth and veterans.

  • 80 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2015.10.26)”

    I’m really concerned about these rumblings that Fisher is really thinking about starting Vujacic. And I am hating this proposed starting lineup of Calderon, Afflalo/Sasha, Melo, KP, Lopez.

    If you ask me, that is the least athletic starting 5 in the league that will hopelessly struggle on the defensive end. Offensively they might be ok, but they will have to score with Melo beasting and with scheme (which I am not sold on), and not with getting easy baskets in transition or with dribble penetration. On days we hit 50+% from midrange we’ll be ok, but it’s hard to imagine that being an above average offensive group.

    Opposing backcourts will run circles around our PG/SG/SF combo.

    I really think our best starting lineup is with Melo at the 4 and with KP off the bench. Calderon, Grant or Galloway, Afflalo, Melo, Lopez. If Melo must play the 3, then I’d start Grant or Galloway at the 2 and leave KP and Lopez at the 4 and 5.

    I don’t understand this fixation with having our second unit be a running unit where Grant and Galloway have to play together.

    No surprise but Chris Herring reported that the 2nd unit beat the 1st unit in a scrimmage 31-16.

    It’s because the 1st unit sucks. It’s Mike Woodson-esque in the preoccupation with two 7 footers.

    Holy shit, I knew Flip Saunders took a leave of absence but I never rly thought he was that sick. I just took it for granted that it one of those things he’d get checked out, take sum medicine, and be back in the saddle in no tyme. Goes to show you should never be flippant about these things.

    You may not have been much of a President or Coach but you didn’t deserve this. God have mercy on you.

    No surprise but Chris Herring reported that the 2nd unit beat the 1st unit in a scrimmage 31-16.

    It’s because the 1st unit sucks. It’s Mike Woodson-esque in the preoccupation with two 7 footers.

    It’s a lot of young guys. Things could change ya know?

    My main problem is why Fisher refused to even experiment in preseason with starting either Galloway or Grant at the 2 next to Calderon or just starting them together with the starting frontcourt to see how it works.

    I like Porzingis starting at the 4 since in theory it should help leverage his NBA ready skills in a useful way, rather than coming off the bench where I think he’d be operating on higher usage which I don’t think he’s ready for right this minute.

    The fact that Vujacic can start on this team is ridiculous in any possible world you could come up with. Fisher’s fetishizing “lineup continuity” at the expense of, you know, actually good lineups.

    He’s really not much of a coach.

    Been thinking a bit about Dolan and Isiah continuing to deny deny deny. Already preemptively kicking myself for what I’m about to write.

    I don’t have the luxury of looking at the evidence, and certainly they lost the jury trial. and so my disclaimer is that I am not speaking from any point of knowledge other than that there was an accusation, a trial, and Dolan/MSG/Isiah lost the case.

    That said, the degree to which Dolan and Isiah STILL refuse to admit to anything does make me wonder just a little bit as to whether maybe it didn’t happen. (And maybe that’s the point of them still fighting this in the press nearly 10 years later – to make some people (like) me have some doubt). But from what I’ve read, it ended up becoming a bit of a he-said-she-said case, bolstered by Marbury having sex with an intern in his truck, which really probably has nothing at all to do with Isiah. People have sex with people at work all the time without it being a problem of hostile work environment and sexual harrassment. (I don’t know the specifics of the marbury thing but I remember it not being a question of harrassment – ie. it was consensual).

    MSG’s case was always that she was not doing a good job for whatever reason and was fired for that and for “interfering with the sexual harrassment investigation”, whatever that means. So let’s say that Dolan and Isiah really believe that (and are not just being douchebags, which of course, they are for plenty of other reasons including possibly this one) — wouldn’t you keep on denying something you don’t think you did?

    Or maybe they’re just being like Tom Brady (CHEATER!! Funny how they had all those drops yesterday, harder to catch a properly inflated ball in the cold!!!), Clemens, Palmeiro, etc etc. examples of people who think they’re above the law and can do whatever no matter what. I don’t know. But I don’t know that I would immediately bash them for denying it to this day.

    I too am perplexed with the idea of starting Vuvajic over grant and galloway but maybe the thinking is Grant and Galloway can feast on the second unit and since they are young, let them gain that experience together and grow confidence together. And eventually they will be the back court of the future. I mean Affalo, Sasha and Jose may not even be here next year. Maybe if you start Galloway you break up the chemistry him and Grant and developing. Maybe if you start them both they struggle against starters and lose their confidence. But maybe if they come off the bench and feast on second units with DWill and KQ, their confidence grows and they gain invaluable experience and when they do take over the starting positions (after Jose is traded or stretched and Affalo signs somewhere else), they do a better job.

    Phil and Fish have a long term plan. I’m willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. As long as we win some games I don’t care if its because our second unit comes back while our starters struggle.

    I’d love to see Grant, Gallo, Dwill, Melo and Rolo as the starting 5. But I get the logic of having a young and faster second unit that is really cohesive. Maybe its better than having 2 units that are not as good as one strong second unit.

    “just being douchebags”
    In my mind, this is pretty much of a good explanation for just about everything bad that Isiah and/or Dolan say or do. I don’t think that the analysis needs to go much further or deeper than that.

    I hope Hairnet starts each and every game where the opposing 2 is a stunning female tennis star. When that’s not the case, I’d prefer that his contributions be limited to transmitting snippets of veteran knowledge via pithy video missives sent from a subterranean bunker deep beneath the Urals where he can stay focused on cultivating his wisdom and remain free from mundane entanglements with actual basketballs and nets.

    It’s because the 1st unit sucks. It’s Mike Woodson-esque in the preoccupation with two 7 footers.

    The backcourt is the problem with the first unit, not the frontcourt. As others have said, playing alongside Lopez and Melo allows Porzingis to play to his initial strengths while developing, whereas he might be needed to do too much coming off the bench. But the speed of our guards if both Jose and Sasha are starting is brutal.

    Nice post Frank, and agree with the everyone about the issue of speed. It’s not just Calderon and Afflalo that are slow. Melo is slow as well for a SF, and Lopez himself isn’t Tyson Chandler. You can’t expect him to switch onto a guard.

    Then there’s the issue of Porzingis. I agree that putting him alongside Melo and Lopez protects him to a degree as he doesn’t have to worry as much about rebounding or creating his own shots, but what about defense? With perimeter players speeding through the paint and Melo, Afflalo and Calderon coughing on their dust, Porzingis is going to have to help a lot, and you could see him get into foul trouble on a nightly basis.

    our starting back court does suck, especially with Sasha and no Affalo. BUT, splitting up Gallo and Grant might be robbing peter to pay paul. We have an obvious strength with our second unit. As long as Melo is playing decently, our first unit can hang and then we can run the second unit and hopefully pull ahead. And the second unit is young so they could play extended minutes if they are feeling it, which will give Melo and the other starters more rest to close out games. Splitting up Grant and Gallo might hurt that chemistry of the second unit. And since Fisher knows the second unit is an obvious strength, he may not want to mess with that, hoping they can help us win games while Affalo gets healthy, Zinger grows into his role and the first unit improves. So I see the logic. We know the second unit works, Why mess with it?

    In all fairness to Fisher (who may very well be a terrible coach, after all), he has very little to work with: the Knicks are just a bad team, full of low-talent players and reclamation projects. Good teams do not have meaningful minutes for 13 of the Knicks’ 15 players.

    Phil Jackson is a more appropriate focal point for criticism because – for whatever the reason – he has assembled a pretty bad squad. Maybe his work includes overpaying for a terrible coach, too, if that’s the case with Derek Fisher.

    Sasha should not be playing unless there are multiple injuries to the backcourt. He should be classified with Lance and Sweet Lou as end of the bench guys who are only here because they know the system and can help the team during practice.

    The 2012-13 team could afford to waste 10 minutes a game on James Flight White. This team can’t.

    Good teams do not have meaningful minutes for 13 of the Knicks’ 15 players.

    Lol.

    Then there’s the issue of Porzingis. I agree that putting him alongside Melo and Lopez protects him to a degree as he doesn’t have to worry as much about rebounding or creating his own shots, but what about defense? With perimeter players speeding through the paint and Melo, Afflalo and Calderon coughing on their dust, Porzingis is going to have to help a lot, and you could see him get into foul trouble on a nightly basis.

    I actually think he’s better off defensively next to Lopez or KOQ than in any other situation. He’s not seasoned enough at this point to reliably anchor a defense and make the correct rotations on the interior. What he can do is be a very effective help defender helping at the rim from the weak side.

    No matter where we play him he’s going to have some issues to deal with. He’s a rookie it’s expected, but if he’s being groomed as the future franchise player it makes sense to play him with the starters in a role where his most NBA ready skills can be maximized and next to the current franchise player in Melo who at least has expressed an interest in being here long-term thus far.

    @ 14 – that is the most ridiculous comment ever. The season hasn’t started and you all ready are saying we’re a bad team with 13 players who couldn’t play significant minutes on another NBA team? This is beyond trolling. We went 4-2 in the preseason and have looked like a pretty decent NBA team but according to you we are beyond bad even though a single game hasn’t been played yet. If you don’t think we’re going to be at least competitive this year then you clearly haven’t watched us play in the preseason.

    @ 14 – that is the most ridiculous comment ever. The season hasn’t started and you all ready are saying we’re a bad team with 13 players who couldn’t play significant minutes on another NBA team? This is beyond trolling.

    It’s not as ridiculous as you think. And definitely not ‘trolling’ (or perhaps it is, since many people define a troll as “someone who disagrees with me on the internet”).

    In short, my comment is not any more premature than yours (btw, most experts agree with my projected 30 wins for the season; that’s a bad team right there). Look at how bizarrely “optimistic” (I’d say ‘delusional’) you were in your own post (but I did not label you a ‘Polyanna troll’):

    We have an obvious strength with our second unit. As long as Melo is playing decently, our first unit can hang and then we can run the second unit and hopefully pull ahead. And the second unit is young so they could play extended minutes if they are feeling it, which will give Melo and the other starters more rest to close out games. Splitting up Grant and Gallo might hurt that chemistry of the second unit. And since Fisher knows the second unit is an obvious strength, he may not want to mess with that

    What ‘chemistry’? What ‘strength’? Hell, we don’t even know who will be part of the first or second units once the season begins…lol…keep it real, bro, delusion is not a required part of a good fan’s game…lol

    I do think CNB exaggerates slightly, but I don’t think it’s that crazy to suggest that all the Knicks other than Melo, RoLo and Afflalo would at least be on the very fringes of many/most good teams rotations. We have a bunch of guys who we’re hoping can take a step forward and prove that they deserve to be in that class as well, and it’s also true that lots of good teams have real holes in their rotations so depending on the team some of our guys would certainly get minutes in the right situation. But I don’t think there’s a fourth guy who you can honestly say would be definitely getting 10 minutes a night on any team in the league.

    I mean, a difference of opinion is fine, but saying that only 2 players on this team would garner meaningful minutes on a “good” team doesn’t seem to hold up. For the sake of argument we’ll talk about “average” teams and above.

    Here’s the roster:
    Melo: this one is pretty self-explantory; well above league-average player. Would find minutes on any team in the league.

    Jose Calderon: The jury is out on this one–if he’s healthy, he’ll perform at about a league average level, or at minimum above replacement level. He would get meaningful minutes on most teams if only for his shooting ability and veteran presence. If he’s not healthy, yikes.

    Robin Lopez: One of the better centers in the league (top 8-15 or so). Would find minutes on any team.

    Kyle O’Quinn: Solid and relatively young player; capable on both offense and defense. Brings physicality and nice passing to his position. Posted good per 36 stats and advanced stats. Didn’t find minutes on Orlando, but that’s the the coach’s fault, not his. Deserves minutes on most teams (i.e. ones that aren’t top tier) especially ones that have a focus on young guys. Above-average.

    Derrick Williams: Phil decided to take a flyer on this one. His acquisition was hard to justify, but if he improves, nice. If he stays the same as he was, we have a slightly above replacement level player. Only should get minutes on bad-to-very-average teams. This one’s a maybe.

    Kristaps Porzingis: He’s a rookie with potential. Might not be good this year, but we’ll see. He would get minutes on most any team he’s on, but as far as productivity goes if he weren’t a hyped rookie he probably wouldn’t get minutes this year.

    Jerian Grant: Pretty much the same as KP, with less upside but will likely perform at least to replacement level this year. Gets minutes on young and/or bad-to-average teams.

    Afflalo: Average to slightly above average. Gets minutes on most any team either as a starter or a backup…

    I’m finding it pretty hard to gin up any excitement for this upcoming Knick season. The veteran core of the team could not be any less exciting, and while there are a couple of good young pieces on the roster, the lack of a 2016 draft pick is a real kick in the gut. This team will be better than last year’s team, but it just seems like the Knicks are now on the mediocrity treadmill. They’ll probably win 20-something games this year, and as a result they’ll probably once again be a tough sell for free agents. I am not really seeing a scenario here where the Knicks are an actual contender in the East this year or next year.

    This is basketball purgatory. The Knicks past roster move sins have landed us here– not good enough to win now, but also hampered in a rebuild effort because of a lack of draft picks and young players. This shit is not gonna be easy to dig out of. We’re probably gonna suck for a few more years.

    Seraphin: Not a good player. At best, slightly above replacement level. But probably at or below.

    Lance Thomas: LOL

    Vujacic: fuck this guy

    Amundson: better than a lot of people think. But still fringe, even on this team.

    Cleanthony: pretty trash, still “young”, so would get minutes on young teams. But he’s not good.

    Langston Galloway: Approximately league average player, gets lots of minutes on bad-to-average teams. Wouldn’t get minutes on a good team, but he should, because he’s a very good defensive player.

    By my count (and of course this is all arguable) that’s anywhere from 6-9 (Melo, Afflalo, RoLo, O’Quinn, healthy Calderon, and Galloway are minutes good candidates to me; KP, Grant, and especially Williams are heavy maybes leaning toward “no”) players deserving of minutes on a good portion of the league’s teams. 6 players deserving minutes still doesn’t make for an amazing team. But it’s not obvious that there are only two players deserving of minutes across the league on this team–in fact, I’d say that statement is likely to be wrong.

    That being said, I have a similar prediction to CNB’s: 31 wins for the Knicks this season, with a ceiling of 35. Here’s to hoping that a significant rebuild or a significant windfall is in our future.

    Checked out the schedule. Tough right out of the gate
    @ Bucks
    Hawks
    @Wizards
    Spurs
    @Cavs
    Bucks

    I count 1-5 stealing a game vs the bucks.

    Any interesting players on the waiver wire, besides Toney Douglas Do What Toney Douglas Do?

    Looking at our opponents, I would say Washington and the Hawks will be the worst matchups for us. In Washington they have Wall and Beal for the starting back court and I don’t think we can defend that, while in Atlanta, they are very good at three point shooting and we’ve had trouble with that too. On the other hand, the backcourt of the Bucks is not their strength, so they may be easier for us to defend. The Cavs will be missing Irving, which should help, but they still are certainly not easy. I don’t know about our matchup San Antonio; their guards aren’t especially quick, but they are very experienced, and of course they are an excellent team.

    You can’t just look at the record of teams last year and assume we’re going to lose to every team that had a better record than us because pretty much every team did but this is a completely new team and a completely new season. We’re going to be fine.

    Also this whole league average, below league average, etc…is not a really good way to predict if a team is going to be good or not. Good teams have average and below average players. Also past performance does not indicate future results especially with young players like DWill and Quinn who are primed to take the next step. Also, the role a player plays on the team and the system they play in, the way the players perform with each other (i.e., chemistry..a bad word on this blog) matters. A LOT. Look at how many players play for good teams and look good, then sign with another team and look bad.

    I don’t think CBN is trolling. He said “good team”, not “any team”, as swiftandabundant mistakenly interpreted. And as Alecto illustrated, it’s not that far out there as a claim. take the top 8 teams in the western conference: I doubt any of them would have much time to dole out to Calderon, O’Quinn, or Pozingis this season. Afflalo, maybe, depending on his health and not continuing his downturn from last season. So I vote that CBN is NOT a troll– just a resident pessimist at a time when it’s the optimists’ time to shine.

    Yeah i just don’t buy the idea that most of the players outside of Rolo and Melo would be fringe players. Affalo has started his whole career. So has Jose. Galloway was second team all rookie. Quinn is a good player (sorry but I’m trusting the eye test. SHOCK I KNOW!). Zinger and Grant are rookies but rookies can play roles on good teams. Everyone is using Sasha being out of the league as proof he sucks but he chose to leave the league and has been playing overseas, which is not as big of a drop off as it used to be and he played significant minutes on championship teams. Seraphim..whatever.

    But I guarantee you Gallo or Jose or whoever could be useful to a team like San Antonio. I mean you guys watched Shump and JR with Cleveland after they got traded, right? You watched Pablo on houston right? This whole “average or below average” thing is just a way to get around the obvious fact that players performances can vary wildly based on the coach, their teammates, the system and how the team plays AS A WHOLE. ITS A TEAM GAME. Of course, that isn’t backed up by stats so obviously I’m wrong.

    Dallas waives the injured Maurice Ndour. We don’t particularly need another forward, especially with Afflalo hurt, but if he agrees to rehab in Westchester without needing a contract with the big club, sign me up…

    You know how you could make a Knick a rotation player on a really good playoff team? Put him on the court with Kyrie Irving, Lebron James, and Kevin Love. Voila

    Dallas waives the injured Maurice Ndour. We don’t particularly need another forward, especially with Afflalo hurt, but if he agrees to rehab in Westchester without needing a contract with the big club, sign me up…

    It looks like they were trying heavily to make a deal to open up another roster spot, as Salah Mejri has been so surprisingly good that they didn’t want to lose him. They didn’t want to lose Ndour, either, but couldn’t open up a spot due to a trade and, when it comes down to it, when you have a rookie who isn’t going to be playing any time soon, it’s hard to justify giving him a spot when you’re a veteran team like Dallas (who signed a lot of interesting fringe guys this offseason, like Jenkins, Evans and McGee). I’d love to see the Knicks sign him. They can afford to be down a player with their fifteenth roster spot. I would like a guard, in general, but when someone like Ndour is out there, I think it is worth giving up the spot (and yes, don’t get me wrong, definitely first ask him if he’ll rehab with the D-League and not need a guaranteed contract/roster spot yet, but I suspect some team will find him a spot to stash him and I know Dallas is currently asking him to do the whole “rehab in the D-League and we’ll bring you back as soon as you’re healthy” spiel to him right now, as well, and you would think they’d have a slight upper hand, considering they’ve already paid the guy $525,000, We already saw how $75,000 got Thanasis to change his tune, imagine $525,000!).

    Jabari Brown and Nick Johnson are two young guards available. I would lean towards Brown because of his shooting and size.

    Absolutely agreed. Brown is a perfect candidate for this team’s back-of-the-bench. That dude can shoot. He can’t do anything else, but he can do that, at least. 37% from three as a rookie.

    Uh oh, Danny Granger is out there, as well, after he was also cut due to an injury (he injured his foot). I don’t want any part of post-knee injury Danny Granger, but I fear his “proven vet” status will make him a tantalizing target.

    ?@IanBegley 4m4 minutes ago

    TNT’s Charles Barkley: “The #Knicks are one of my sleeper teams. I’m picking them to make the playoffs.”

    I’d like to think this is just a new way for Barkley to troll Knicks fans.

    Yeah, I’ll agree with CNB, but it’s worth noting that the same could be said of Detroit (Jackson, Drummond) or Orlando (Vucevic, Harris), both teams that are being rated similarly to NY. It also really illustrates why Boston is good. Bradley, Zeller, Thomas, Lee, Johnson, Crowder and probably Smart all would likely be in the rotation of most top teams.’

    I also think O’Quinn would have a reasonable chance of being a 9th man — a 500-1000 minute player on a good team. Similar to Speights on GSW.

    Do I think a lot of this year’s team would be in the rotation of a good team? No, but I do think that it’s a lot more than two. Calderon, Afflalo, Melo, RoLo and O’Quinn I think would get minutes anywhere. The rookies are always a tough call, but while sure, Grant probably wouldn’t play much, I think the #4 pick in the NBA draft would play anywhere (unless Larry Brown is the coach). That leaves Williams and Galloway. They’re toss-ups, but more to the “unlikely” side of the fence.

    I don’t even mean this as some compliment towards the Knicks, but more a statement about how even great teams find minutes for low-level guys (Big Baby Davis was a big time contributor to the Clippers last year). Now if you want to talk about how many Knicks could start for a good team, then sure, Melo and RoLo (and maaaaaaybe Afflalo) would be it.

    I’d like to think this is just a new way for Barkley to troll Knicks fans

    Really? Why? I think it’s encouraging that some others think the Knicks have potential. Last year, he said on TV that he thought the Knicks were so bad they shouldn’t be nationally broadcast. This is much better.

    Calderon, Afflalo, Melo, RoLo and O’Quinn

    Seems like opinions of Calderon are varying pretty widely at this point. I definitely feel like he’s one of the biggest question marks for this year. He’s sort of supposed to be this team’s third best player, in terms of salary, the price we paid to trade for him etc., but there were questions about him going into last year, and he was entirely awful last year even when he was healthy, which he largely wasn’t. Also he’s 34.

    He probably would get minutes on some decent teams purely due to his vet status. Would he deserve them? I’m extremely skeptical. You can find him sitting a cool 72nd in Real Plus/Minus among PGs last year. I think most NBA teams (including the Knicks possibly) have two PGs who are better than him. If you’re hoping for a big bounceback year from a 34 year old you’re going to be dissapointed most of the time.

    As for O’Quinn, c’mon Brian. He didn’t play last year on a terrible team. There’s simply no way you can say he would get minutes anywhere. Yes, that was partially because the terrible team had a terrible coach, and I also love O’Quinn and think he has a chance to come good in a big way, but for good teams he’d be the 12th man trying to earn some minutes, not penciled into the rotation.

    As for O’Quinn, c’mon Brian. He didn’t play last year on a terrible team. There’s simply no way you can say he would get minutes anywhere. Yes, that was partially because the terrible team had a terrible coach, and I also love O’Quinn and think he has a chance to come good in a big way, but for good teams he’d be the 12th man trying to earn some minutes, not penciled into the rotation.

    After this season KOQ will be regarded as one of the best bench bigs in the league. He’s going to be a fucking steal on that contract once the cap balloons.

    And let’s remember that Enes Kanter is getting heavy rotation minutes for OKC this season on a max contract. KOQ is much better than a 12th man despite the idiocy of Vaughn.

    As for O’Quinn, c’mon Brian. He didn’t play last year on a terrible team. There’s simply no way you can say he would get minutes anywhere. Yes, that was partially because the terrible team had a terrible coach, and I also love O’Quinn and think he has a chance to come good in a big way, but for good teams he’d be the 12th man trying to earn some minutes, not penciled into the rotation.

    I think big men rotations are particularly thin on most teams, even good ones. I don’t think he’d get more than 10 minutes a game, but I think he’d get that.

    But let’s even say that you exclude O’Quinn, that’s still Melo, Afflalo, RoLo, Calderon (I agree that Calderon likely wouldn’t deserve the minutes, but he’d get them) and Zinger. That’s a lot more than two.

    We traded two guys off a 5-32 trainwreck of a team who went on to play big minutes in the NBA finals alongside Matthew fucking Dellavadova. As Brian pointed out, Big Baby Davis was a rotation player for one of the best teams in the NBA. Playing for a good team might mean you’re good, but it also can mean that you have really good teammates. It’s not a way to measure player quality.

    I think big men rotations are particularly thin on most teams, even good ones. I don’t think he’d get more than 10 minutes a game, but I think he’d get that.

    Depends on the level of team, but I agree to a certain extent. I think there’s a good chance he’d at least play his way into the rotation on all but the top 4 or 5 teams in the league. I agree with Lavor that he has a chance to break out in a huge way this year. I just think it’s a mistake to act like it has already happened. No way can I look at a guy who played 800 minutes on one of the worst teams in the league last year, and say that he’d be no doubt about it playing 10 minutes a night for any team in the league.

    But let’s say you exclude O’Quinn, that’s still Melo, Afflalo, RoLo, Calderon and Zinger. That’s a lot more than two.

    I agree on Afflalo, I think he would play just about anywhere, while also recognizing that some of his metrics have been absolutely awful the last couple years. I’ve made my thoughts on Calderon known. As for Zingus, he’d get minutes because he’s the #4 pick, but do we actually expect that on the merits of his production this year he’d deserve to be in a good team’s rotation? I’m skeptical.

    We can really improve our slow, injury prone, poor scoring backcourt by picking up Jabari Brown. I’d actually look to get the other Brown as well, Lorenzo who has a super assist/turnover ratio as a pure PG and is 6’5″ and plays defense. What a shot in the arm it would be to get these 2 backcourt guys at this late stage. Phil, please make it happen.

    But let’s say you exclude O’Quinn, that’s still Melo, Afflalo, RoLo, Calderon (I agree that Calderon likely wouldn’t deserve the minutes, but he’d get them) and Zinger. That’s a lot more than two.

    Why would Porzingis get meaningful minutes on a good team? The rookie has potential, but it’s not like he was setting the Summer League on fire. That, plus a very diminished Afflalo (he was a ‘utility’ player at his best) means that no, it’s not “a lot more than 2”. Even if we give Afflalo or Porzingis every single benefit of every single doubt, that’s still not “a lot more than 2”.

    I can understand the thirst for success, but cooler heads should prevail. Specially on a stats-oriented site.

    In any case, how good is the team if we have trouble coming up with 3 or 4 start-caliber names on the roster?

    I mean, if the argument is, “they’d play even though they’d be unlikely to deserve their minutes,” then who cares? If the point of the debate is to get a different perspective on how good the team is, then we should imagine these other teams are making decisions for basketball reasons only.

    In this hypothetical world, Calderon probably wouldn’t play on most healthy good teams. Same goes for everyone other than Melo and Rolo and maybe Afflalo and O’Quinn (just like like Meeks and KCP from Detroit might play or Fournier, Oladipo and Frye from Orlando might play).

    Really? Why? I think it’s encouraging that some others think the Knicks have potential. Last year, he said on TV that he thought the Knicks were so bad they shouldn’t be nationally broadcast. This is much better.

    Well…it’s not like he was wrong. We shouldn’t have been nationally broadcast last year, as we were quite clearly awful. I don’t understand the Barkley hate sometimes. I mean, he’s not the most gifted analyst, but at the same time getting upset with him for saying the Knicks sucked last year is very silly. Because we did. Suck. Badly. A lot. Wow were we bad.

    Why would Porzingis get meaningful minutes on a good team? The rookie has potential, but it’s not like he was setting the Summer League on fire. That, plus a very diminished Afflalo (he was a ‘utility’ player at his best) means that no, it’s not “a lot more than 2?. Even if we give Afflalo or Porzingis every single benefit of every single doubt, that’s still not “a lot more than 2?.

    I can understand the thirst for success, but cooler heads should prevail. Specially on a stats-oriented site.

    In any case, how good is the team if we have trouble coming up with 3 or 4 start-caliber names on the roster?

    I’m not saying it as some compliment to the team, just that if you say “there are only two players that would be in the rotation of good teams,” I am simply saying that that is not accurate. But yes, in terms of how good the team will be this year, only Melo and RoLo stand out as no doubt about it good players, which is definitely a knock on this team.

    Healthy good teams play fairly bad players significant minutes all the time. Maybe not Bargnani bad, but worse than O’Quinn or Galloway, certainly.

    I mean, if the argument is, “they’d play even though they’d be unlikely to deserve their minutes,” then who cares?

    I think it’s fair to hold someone to their words, Max. CNB said only two players would get minutes; that was readily disproved. And frankly, if you want to play it the other way – that only two players DESERVED to get minutes – you could disprove that, too.

    Afflalo got starter’s minutes on a playoff team last year; he didn’t deserve them, but he got them, so he’d get them again in a real life situation. Oh, you want to with “deserves?” OK, Gallo probably wouldn’t get minutes on most other teams in real-life situations, but his numbers say that he deserves to.

    You can’t have it both ways. In a numbers world, O’Quinn and Gallo should play (as well as RoLo and Melo at least). In the Association, vets like Afflalo and Calderon would definitely play (as well as RoLo and Melo). So it’s at least four, making a statement of “only 2” obviously wrong no matter which way you want to interpret it.

    Realistically, Bazingus would get minutes from ANYONE as well, since high draft picks almost always get burn. And in fact, he did do pretty well in summer league. He might merit 15 minutes in both NBA-estimations and in a numbers world. So that’s probably 5. And frankly, Jerian probably will earn those minutes by the end of the season as well.

    So, only 2? Sorry, no.

    But I stick with my 34 win prediction anyway. Mostly because of coaching.

    Healthy good teams play fairly bad players significant minutes all the time. Maybe not Bargnani bad, but worse than O’Quinn or Galloway, certainly.

    Exhibit A – Dion Waiters

    Exhibit A – Dion Waiters

    Count me as one that doesn’t understand how OKC was a “healthy good team” when it’s two all-stars missed a combined 70 games.

    As for the debate of the Knicks’ 3rd best player getting rotation minutes on a good team, just look at the good teams and decide: would Afflalo play on:

    Golden state: no
    Houston: he’d be behind Harden, and Terry at the 2.
    Clippers: no
    Spurs: probably, given their vets and pop conserving their mins
    Memphis: again, he’d be 3rd in depth at his position
    Portland: not even a likely playoff team and he’d be competing with Gerald Henderson to back up McCollum
    Dallas: yes
    NO: yes, but if their injured guards come back to strength, then no.

    Those are the playoff teams from the west last year. And this assumes that Afflalo is both a) healthy, and b) plays at least as well as last season, if not better.

    The Clippers played Austin Rivers last year. Memphis gave almost 2000 minutes to the corpse of Vince Career. Afflalo actually played for Portland in real life.

    Austin Rivers averaged 18 minutes a game last year…in the freakin’ playoffs!

    I realize that it was preseason and a small sample size and all but is anyone else surprised that, according to postingandtoasting.com, the Knicks were fourth in the league in defensive efficiency during the preseason?

    I’m pretty confident that as mediocre as Afflalo is he’s comfortably better than Jason Terry.

    Dallas isn’t going to be a playoff team this year so Jason Terry no longer counts as a playoff team rotation player

    Jason Terry is and has been on the Rockets.

    Anyway I’m not sure “Lots of good teams play bad players” is a strong counterpoint to the main argument being advanced by the pessimists in this thread, which is that it’s hard to be a good team if you have very few good players. I don’t think anyone is suggesting that playing any one or two of our rotation players rules this team out from being good. The problem is that those guys are supposed to be the strengths of this team, not the weaknesses. We can go back and forth all day about whether Afflalo and Calderon would play on good teams or deserve to play on good teams, or what have you. Those guys are our starting back court. That’s a problem.

    The Clippers played Austin Rivers last year. Memphis gave almost 2000 minutes to the corpse of Vince Career. Afflalo actually played for Portland in real life.

    Sorry, I thought we were talking about this year not last year .

    And Terry plays for Houston not Dallas. And he was pretty good last year. Better than Afflalo played last year.

    And Terry plays for Houston not Dallas. And he was pretty good last year. Better than Afflalo played last year.

    How do we think Afflalo would have looked playing off the ball next to Harden on offense? Is it possible that Terry went from shitty rotation guy on teams like Boston, Brooklyn and Sacramento to viable rotation player in Houston because he was playing next to talent that allowed him to perform the sole function he can provide at a good level in 3 point shooting?

    What is this measurement that people are using to determine who is a good player? Is Lance Stephenson a good player still because he will get minutes along with a host of some questionable player for the clippers. I mean Drew Gooden was getting minutes for Was in the playoffs. Kirk Hinrich still gets minutes for the Bulls.

    Jeez, all I wanted to do was to respond to CNBs claim that many of these players 1. wouldn’t get minutes on other NBA teams (demonstrably false and often irrelevant) and 2. (but less so) that at least 5-6 of these players would DESERVE to get minutes on other teams not named Golden State, Houston, etc. (I think this is pretty true but more debatable than the last point.) To me it’s obvious that Melo, RoLo, Afflalo Galloway and O’quinn deserve minutes on this team or others. Calderon is the most arguable one of the candidates for deserving minutes. We don’t even know what KP and Grant are going to do. Either way I consider 5 players deserving of minutes to be well over 2.

    On Afflalo, specifically: the guys been about league average for a while now. But being league average is fine and good–every team could use league average players. He would get minutes on most teams and he would deserve them. That’s not saying he’s good or good at 8m because he isn’t. But how much our team is going to suck is a separate question from how many players on this team would 1. get minutes on other teams or 2. deserve minutes on other teams.

    I’ll just point out that Afflalo has ranked absolutely horridly by plus-minus both of the last two years, largely due to terrible defensive numbers which are supported by the eye-test for the most part. We haven’t gotten a chance to put eyes on him much this preseason, but I personally am pretty concerned that his league average days are well in the rear-view mirror at this point.

    CNB’s argument makes sense for last years team. A healthy Calderon and Melo get minutes for any team and no one else. That was because we were trying to lose. We were trying to put players out there who would play their hardest and lose. Interesting that BKLYN has Shane Larkin and Andrea Bargnani. They’re gonna be good at losing.

    The Knicks are trying to win. KP and Rolo are major acquisitions and if they wouldn’t garner minutes on a good team they were foolish acquisitions. They were brought in to be elite NBA players. Other than that, as has been said, you have role players and those guys play well sometimes but not consistently. JR catches fire at home for CLE but at GS not so much. You need these types of players to give you big performances when conditions are favorable but you don’t necessarily rely on them the way you do on your foundational guys.

    This thread is making me feel like it’s not worth getting NBALP but I’m getting it. Plenty of reasons to watch.

    The Knicks hopefully added some meaningful puzzle pieces. I’ll be disappointed with low thirties wins. We are not tanking this year. We’re trying. We have NBA players.

    I’ll be disappointed with low thirties wins. We are not tanking this year. We’re trying. We have NBA players.

    I think you’ll be disappointed, then. But not me! I’m excited to see the foundations of a good team come together. A lot depends on whether Bazingus and Jerian are for real, but if they are, we have some key pieces of a very good team the season after this.

    A lot depends on whether Bazingus and Jerian are for real, but if they are, we have some key pieces of a very good team the season after this.

    This and to a lesser extent Galloway, Derrick Williams and KOQ’s development are what I think is most important this season for us moving forward.

    Also hopeful we can milk a few good weeks out of Seraphin and trade him for a couple of 2nd round picks.

    I’m excited to see the foundations of a good team come together.

    Me too. Until they trade them all for Boogie Cousins 🙂

    Anyway I’m not sure “Lots of good teams play bad players” is a strong counterpoint to the main argument being advanced by the pessimists in this thread, which is that it’s hard to be a good team if you have very few good players

    Sure. My argument is that looking at who starts (or plays heavy minutes) for good teams is not a good way to identify good players.

    How do we think Afflalo would have looked playing off the ball next to Harden on offense? Is it possible that Terry went from shitty rotation guy on teams like Boston, Brooklyn and Sacramento to viable rotation player in Houston because he was playing next to talent that allowed him to perform the sole function he can provide at a good level in 3 point shooting?

    Look, you can argue that Afflalo is better the Jason Terry, despite what the stats say about their most recent respective seasons. I’m apt to agree with you. But the fact that that’s a conversation that can be had doesn’t bode very well for a team with Afflalo penciled in as the #3 best player.

    Afflalo can be a valuable player if he is healthy and doesn’t continue his declining trend. Starting the year injured obviously isn’t a great sign, though, and it’s safe to say he wouldn’t even get rotation minutes for the 1993 Mavericks if he can’t walk.

    It seems there is a puncher’s chance that, once the dust settles, and if vets get older fast and rookies get older slow, Derrick Williams could end up being the 3rd best player on this team this year.

    Sure. My argument is that looking at who starts (or plays heavy minutes) for good teams is not a good way to identify good players.

    Right, you get your foundational players and then the rest will depend on health, motivation and the relative amounts of that for role players on other teams.

    If KP isn’t great we suck. Rolo same. Melo same. Maybe someone else jumps out of the mix and becomes a consistent high impact player. Dwill looks athletic enough. Maybe Grant is the new Mark Jackson. But OKC has KD and Westbrook. We can go down the line. CLE almost won a chip with one player who would get minutes on any team. When Ewing was dominating the post and Oakley was busting heads Starks could afford a bad shooting performance. We’ll be as good as our 122 million dollar SF, our 52 million C and our #4. Other than that it’s a crap shoot for everyone as evidenced by CLE who played pretty well with our crap shooting for them.

    a team with Afflalo penciled in as the #3 best player

    I don’t think this holds up. I think they want him to mix in. I think they’d like him to be in the top eight.

    Well…it’s not like he was wrong. We shouldn’t have been nationally broadcast

    My point exactly. He was honest then and I think he is being honest now.

    Affalo put up a very good offensive season for a two guard two years ago, he was not good defensively but if he puts up those same exact offensive numbers he will be our third best player and potentially a very valuable trade asset if we are as bad as everything things we are going to be

    “The Lakers are the fourth-best team in California. They lucky the Sparks ain’t playing, they’d be the fifth.”

    Chuck is trolling a new fanbase this year, it seems

    Calderon – hurt last year. Before that NBA starter his entire career.
    Affalo – NBA starter his entire NBA career.
    Melo – DUH
    Zinger – #4 pick. Lottery picks don’t always start but they usually play significant minutes their rookie years and the expectation is that they have enough talent to be NBA starters.
    Rolo – starting Center the last few years for a 50 plus win team in the Western Conference. Generally considered top 15 center in the league (some would say top 10).

    So all 5 of our starters are worthy of being starters. Of course Affalo and Calderon have dealt (or are dealing) with injuries but Calderon was the starting PG for a 50 win Western Conference team 2 seasons ago that took the eventual NBA champions to 7 games in the playoffs (the biggest challenge the Spurs faced that year in the playoffs).

    Bench – Grant – rookie. Galloway – second year player who was second team all rookie (meaning he has potential). DWill – former #2 pick, has started on other teams and has played significant minutes (for bad teams sure) most of his young NBA career. KQ – bench big on minimal contract – going to bust out. Early – unknown. Seraphin – again bench guy for a playoff team.

    I just don’t see how this team is sorely lacking in talent. Is the backcourt our weak spot? Sure. Could injuries derail us? Of course (as they can any team). But to say this team lacks any talent at all is false.

    Just hate the pessimism on this board sometimes. We have a whole new team. Lets let them play and win or lose some games before we call them a failure. If we had looked awful in preseason then I’d say pessimism is warranted but we haven’t so it isn’t.

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