544 thoughts to “Your 2041 Basketball HOF Inductee: Jericho Sims”

  1. Mike, I assume this means you will be giving everyone — or, at least, me — both video and pic-embedding powers going forward, yes?

  2. Once Mike K gets my edit function working again so I don’t have all these terrible typos he will start working on you Alan.

    Excited about Sims. Definitely my kind of player.

  3. Alan
    August 8, 2021 at 9:04 pm
    @MikeVorkunov
    The NBA has added an extra Summer League game for the Knicks tomorrow. The Knicks will play the Pacers at 2pm ET/11am PT

    This may be because the Pacers were scheduled to play the Wizards, but the game was postponed because the Wizards don’t have enough people to play due to health and safety protocols.

  4. Seems as if one of the goals of this summer league will be to see if IQ can play more point guard, since Kemba and Rose are both likely to miss time (or just need rest). The experiment didn’t go well yesterday, especially compared to Malachi Flynn looking like a veteran NBA PG. But it’s also one summer league game and Quickley still dished out a bunch of assists in an environment not conducive to that.

    Doing this limits the amount of time the team can evaluate McBride, Vildoza, and Rokas at the point, but I’m guessing IQ doesn’t play the full Vegas schedule. And he’s a much higher priority for this year’s team than they are.

  5. I was actually more impressed with a rebound Sims did than with his good looking alley oop dunk. He was in the middle of two Raptor players going for the same rebound. He just outJumped both of them by enough that he cleanly caught the ball before they could touch it.

  6. Joinone:
    I watched Summer of Soul and it was the most amazing thing I’ve seen this year.

    I’ll check it out. Thanks fir the recommendation

  7. @KeithSmithNBA
    As expected, Kemba Walker cleared waivers yesterday. This should free the Knicks up to begin sequencing their moves to fit everything in under the salary cap. Expect New York’s signings to go official starting today.

    We should have a clearer idea soon exactly how much Kemba is making, whether there’s still cap space for Vildoza, etc.

  8. Do we want Vildoza on the team at this point? Since we signed him we’ve added Kemba, Deuce and Quentin. Fournier too.

  9. Aside from his alley-ooping skills, Quickley looked like dog crap. Obi and Sims looked pretty darn good overall, and both McBride and Grimes at least looked like they belonged out there with at least one real skill (pull-up midrange and 3-pt range, respectively).

    It’s early, but I think McBride might work best as 3rd string PG because of his D and midrange. During his stints, Randle and Burks could handle the initiator’s duties.

    That strong Jalen Johnson game really does hurt, though (he would’ve been my choice at 19.)

  10. Joinone:
    I watched Summer of Soul and it was the most amazing thing I’ve seen this year.

    Joinone:
    I watched Summer of Soul and it was the most amazing thing I’ve seen this year.

    I watched it Saturday. Liked the Sixties-ish politics material at the beginning, though it’s a widely-covered story; liked the footage of John Lindsay (*) the gospel stuff honestly kind of dragged but then Sly and the Family Stone did a version of Everyday People that was all manner of awesome, including the way they filmed it (**), and from then on it was fantastic.

    (*) If you’re the type who likes to see big massive socio-cultural trends summed to their quintessence, you can’t do a whole lot better than the fact that John Lindsay was a Republican. The geographic, demographic, and political sorting that has gone on since the Summer of Soul is probably the biggest, most important trend in American life. Our current tribalism is not possible without it, though in part it comes from the same underlying source. People from different walks of life and socio-economic status used to be able to abide each other far better than they do now, which is a very disappointing development.

    (**) Loved how when the first chorus started, they did a reverse angle of Sly soaking up his bandmates’ work. Was watching it on Hulu in my apartment and had to get a second listen.

  11. This is a fun tidbit from NBA reporter Jason Dumas:

    “Ben Simmons’ relationship reportedly ‘beyond repair’ is ignoring Joel Embiid’s phone calls. Doesn’t want to get traded to Raptors or Blazers. Open to getting traded to one of the California teams.”

  12. Flambeeing the 19th pick was an absurd decision, particularly after seeing Grimes in action. Dictionary definition of meh.

  13. Oh, and also in Summer of Soul, while there weren’t anything close to “a lot” of them, there were definitely white people in the crowd. Interesting to reflect on how they could just go there and hang out and enjoy the music and the atmosphere and the park, without a bunch of selfies and tweets and internet postings making sure as many people as possible knew they were there.

  14. Call me crazy… delusional… whatever… but I thought Grimes looked more than serviceable yesterday. He was engaged and active on D and frequently displayed good lateral movement. He was also – I believe – 3 for 8 from beyond the arc which is certainly fine for a first outing. Only one game, I know, but he looked to have the makings of a very useful 3 & D type going forward. If that turns out to be the case, that’s great value for a late first.

    (Of course, it would have been sooooo much better if he had been taken in conjunction with a high ceiling player acquired with la selección incinerada.)

  15. Yeah Summer of Soul was amazing. That Sly footage and also the extended Stevie Wonder keyboard solo.

    A good one-two watching is that and then the Woodstock 99 documentary. Or rather, maybe watch the Woodstock one first since its disturbing/kind of a downer. But I think they go well together even though one is largely uplifting and positive and the other is kind of horrifying.

    Also, there is a really big biography book of Mayor Lindsey called “America’s Mayor.” Its a long one but I highly recommend it if you’re interested in 60’s politics and the history of NYC.

  16. Will be interesting to see what happens if Sims actually turns out to be useful right away. Will we trade Mitch?

    I feel like Mitch is on the block. And even though we just resigned Randle to a 4 year extension, I feel like we’re holding on to Obi for awhile. At the very least to build up his value. I hope Thibs will give Randle more of a rest this season so Obi can get a solid 20 minutes a game (and also figure out a way to play Randle and Obi together some).

  17. I’m definitely not anti-Grimes (although, with limited height/length, I think he’s purely a 3&D SG). But I don’t know why the Knicks couldn’t also take a flier on Johnson at 19, particularly because we have a gaping need for a jumbo-sized SF with Knox being so dreadful. I get that he had “red flags” but those seemed circumstantial.

    I also get that having the 19th pick would’ve cut into our ability to sign Kemba, but we could easily trade Knox and/or Vildoza. I just don’t see how they didn’t recognize the upside there.

    Ok, I will shut up about the 19th pick now because I do really like this team overall.

  18. Like I say every year, we need to make a pact not to overreact to Summer League performances. After a total of one game, we’re ready to deal Mitch and commit seppuku over not drafting Jalen Johnson at 19.

    And honestly, after sitting through that cluster fuck of a game yesterday, I’m not sure how much more time I can invest in watching Summer League.

  19. Just speaking of my own experience as a Chinese person who are interested in a lot of history stuff including American history, also likes movies/music/entertainment but without a deep knowledge, Summer of Soul seems to be a perfect introductory blend for me with its ratios of documentary and commentary to provide context. Similar to a well written Wikipedia page it leads to names, records and events to go into a deep slope if I feel like it, but with live Music instead of a text wall!

    E, all merc’d out: People from different walks of life and socio-economic status used to be able to abide each other far better than they do now, which is a very disappointing development.

    Just the fact that there was no interest in the “Black Woodstock” film back then, while we all got to see and appreciate this event now, seems to suggest otherwise. Or maybe like the film presented, the power of music is just that great.

  20. Jalen Johnson’s issue is his character. That’s not likely to show up in a 1 game sample.

    Also, there’s a lot of SL “stars” who turn into nothing during the regular season.

  21. The Knicks need some help on defense at the guard/wing.

    Going from Bullock (perhaps our best defender) to Fournier (who may not even be neutral) and from Payton (who could at least switch and do some good things on defense) to Kemba (who is probably a negative defender at this age with his knees) is going to have a noticeable impact on the defense. That doesn’t even count Frank’s limited minutes taken away.

    If they cut Vildoza (and they should) and/or trade Knox it should be to add an NBA ready defensive role player. That’s what they need. They may not get a Bullock caliber player, but they don’t need another young project at the end of the bench. They need someone that can come in and give them solid minutes on defense when our defense if getting shredded by some bad matchups and that can at least hit open 3s.

  22. Oh merde! Whaddup here come dat Ntilikina!

    Deeefense:
    The Knicks need some help on defense at the guard/wing.

    Going from Bullock (perhaps our best defender) to Fournier (who may not even be neutral) and from Payton (who could at least switch and do some good things on defense) to Kemba (who is probably a negative defenderat this age with his knees) is going to have a noticeable impact on the defense.That doesn’t even count Frank’s limited minutes taken away.

    If they cut Vildoza (and they should) and/or trade Knox it should be to add an NBA ready defensive role player.That’s what they need.They may not get a Bullock caliber player, but they don’t need another young project at the end of the bench.They need someone that can come in and give them solid minutes on defense when our defense if getting shredded by some bad matchups and that can at least hit open 3s.

  23. The most alarming thing about yesterday’s game was the complete absence of any Knick player who showed even a hint of ability for breaking down a defense. We’d all hoped that IQ could be that guy but it sure seemed as if most of his forays into the paint wound up thwarted with extreme prejudice. Vildoza hardly fared any better. Perhaps Rokas will show us something more.

    Suffice it to say, if it turns out the none of the young PGs have even a minimal competency for pressuring the rim that will not bode well for the upcoming season. That would put waaaay too much of a burden on the time ravaged bodies of Kemba & Rose. Seems unlikely that the Knicks will be able to rely on just those two running the point for an entire season. One of the young PGs needs to bust out otherwise this season could be upended by the FO’s failure to, yet again, address the PG situation with youth

  24. First the Kemba news, then Julius extension, now it’s a Mike K post… we’re in for a treat this summer!
    What’s next? A Farfa Summer League recap? :)

  25. Quickley is not a traditional PG. IMO, he’s probably not even going to be a legitimate starter unless he improves his defense. He’s an undersized SG that can make some plays. There are guys like that in the NBA that can start and be very good but they typically have to at least be long and good defenders. You preferably want to team someone like that with a bigger guard. That’s why I thought the Sexton/Ball combo could work. Sexton is not a traditional PG or defender either. but next to Ball it might have been OK. I think we should view Quick as a 6th man type that can come in and spark the offense with his energy and get some buckets “Quickley” when we need them.

  26. Owen: Once Mike K gets my edit function working again so I don’t have all these terrible typos he will start working on you Alan.

    Owen, maybe you already done this, but have you tried an alternative browser? Meaning if you’re using Chrome, can you try another one (eg, Firefox)?

  27. Early Bird: a lot of SL “stars” who turn into nothing

    swiftandabundant: Kevin Knox dominated his first summer league.

    My recollection (and it may well be faulty) from years past is that good summer league showings by guards/wings tend not to translate as consistently as that of bigs. In the same summer that Knox was tearing it up, we also saw glimpses of what Mitchell Robinson could be. One turned out to be a mirage; the other, real.

  28. For a first game, and being lower picks, i think Grimes and McBride were ok-ish. Quick was bad, but it was a tall task, not only he has to adapt to the PG position, he has to adapt to the new rules (when he went to the referee i thought he was right, the defender jumped forward, and i hope that’s not on the new rules) and last, but not least, it’s not easy to be good at distributing if your teammates are launching brick after brick after brick… i’m hoping for better all around games to have a proper evaluation.
    And let’s all remember that Summer League might get us excited or pessimist, and then when games matter (regular season) it’s another story… like Kevin “Summer League All Star” Knox! :D

  29. E, all merc’d out: the gospel stuff honestly kind of dragged

    The Gospel was actually a highlight for me- Mahalia Jackson and the Staples are legends and in fine form. Another highlight- The Pips! Gladys Knight is kind of whatever but the Pips are out there workin’!!!

  30. Obi’s defense seems to be getting better and better. He is also deceptively fast. Maybe he can get those minutes where we need a bigger three. I could also see Grimes displacing Quickley in the rotation at some point.

  31. d-mar: And honestly, after sitting through that cluster fuck of a game yesterday, I’m not sure how much more time I can invest in watching Summer League.

    I had the same feeling, most likely i won’t watch the 2nd game, and then if i read people here saying they’re playing better, i might give them a 2nd chance. ;)

  32. We aren’t going to kick overreacting to Summer League to the curb…

    Cybersoze, I have the same issue on every browser and on every operating system. It’s quite strange but not a biggie. I just can’t navigate down past “adjust comment” status for some reason.

  33. As far as I’m aware Jalen Johnson’s “character issues” boil down to him leaving Duke in the middle of a miserable season for them both in terms of performance wise and Covid protocols. Of course there could be more that I don’t know about, but if that’s really it…https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrrMJqjgsIM&ab_channel=JoeyD

    I also get that having the 19th pick would’ve cut into our ability to sign Kemba, but we could easily trade Knox and/or Vildoza. I just don’t see how they didn’t recognize the upside there.

    It also doesn’t seem plausible that a $2.7M cap hold would’ve prevented anything. If we started Burks, Noel, Rose, Fournier, and Kemba’s salaries at ~$540K less in the first year ($2.7M divided by 5), would that really have made the difference for any of them? Of course like you said in a worst case scenario where it really did make a difference we could’ve dumped Knox, waived Vildoza, etc. but I think the $2.7M cap hold savings is a flimsy post-hoc justification.

    As I have said, I will shut up about this forever if Leon and co. build a contender. It just feels like with over $50M in cap space and 3 top-35 picks in a deep draft, we could’ve come away from the summer with substantially more young talent than we did, and we even could’ve done it in a way that wouldn’t have affected our 2021-2022 outlook much. $21M AAV for Burks and Noel feels very meh when that’s almost Lonzo Ball’s exact AAV.

    The offseason is still a B-/B for me, because I do think raising the ceiling of the team while not surrendering much flexibility to do so was impressive. I just think it could’ve been achieved while also adding Jalen Johnson (or Jaden Springer, Cam Thomas, etc.) and Lonzo Ball.

  34. The best takeaway from yesterday’s game to me was Obi looking like a man amongst boys in the paint. I am of the opinion that while it’s in his best interests to develop a 3PT shot eventually, he’s a bit too focused on it right now at the possible expense of what should be his bread and butter: layups and dunks.

    I’m not saying he should relegate himself to catching lobs because I think he’s got a more diverse offensive skillset than that even when it comes to points in the paint. I’d like to see him put the ball on the floor, post up mismatches, and get out in transition more this season.

  35. GHenman:
    Obi’s defense seems to be getting better and better. He is also deceptively fast. Maybe he can get those minutes where we need a bigger three. I could also see Grimes displacing Quickley in the rotation at some point.

    I’d love to see Obi get time at small forward. That would be really intimidating.

  36. Jalen also backed out of a commitment to IMG in HS. I don’t think these are devastating issues by any means, but they seem to have concerned some teams.

    More concerning is his half court game because his shot is questionable as is his ability to drive past non-SL players.

  37. I kind of expect Obi to dominate the paint in SL, which is why I want to see him play a more perimeter oriented game. He should be too good in the paint for SL folk.

    It’s nice for us to see, but it takes away possessions that should go to working on other parts of his game and other players games. I’m not sure SL players give enough resistance for Obi to improve in the post.

  38. cybersoze: sitting through that cluster fuck of a game yesterday

    Apart from the appalling lack of competent PG play, there were some bright spots that made the game worth watching for me:

    – Obi looked like he’s taken at least a few more steps toward being a useful rotation player/ trade piece.

    – Grimes and McBride were exactly as advertised: high floor/ limited upside players who look to be eminently worthy of where they were selected and who may even be good enough to earn meaningful minutes sooner rather than later.

    – Sims, of course, was a revelation. Not only did his play exceed my less-than-modest expectations, but it was exciting enough to coax Mike K. out of his self-imposed exile!

    IQ’s play was a stone bummer and that kinda cast a pall over on the whole affair. But in an offseason in which the FO opted not to swing for the fences in the draft (booo!) it was at least reassuring to see that they did not whiff altogether. Grimes/McBride both appear to be solid singles and Sims may end up being something more.

  39. I hope a long form version of “Summer Of Soul” gets released. I’m sure there are hours more of incredible footage.

    Also Marilyn McCoo was all kinds of gorgeous. She’s in her 80’s now and still looks incredible.

  40. yea the jalen johnson duke thing was the second occurrence of him flaking out… he has a pretty high opinion of himself and indications are that he doesn’t really do more than he needs to…. which is sort of a close analog for a guy he gets compared to often in ben simmons…

    that might change since maybe all he ever wanted was to get drafted but that’s not something you want in a guy you’re investing a draft pick in because you could have all the talent in the world but if you’re just doing the bare minimum they will quickly go into the dustbin of lazy hoopers… at pick 20 there weren’t many guys this talented so you take him and ask questions later… but i wasn’t all gungho about taking him myself … at the same time questions of character are very hard to suss out especially as an outside observer with only public info to go off of so you just never know… he definitely showed something in the little time we saw him..

  41. They should have taken him at 19. It was a very unimaginative offseason, premised on the team being far better and far closer to something meaningful than it actually is. To think this team doesn’t need anything young and high ceiling is dumb af.

  42. a guy like obi should do well in summer league… it’s fast paced helter skelter and he’s a fair bit older than almost everyone there… it’s not a great environment to judge him in unfortunately so even if he does well he’s basically a fifth year senior beating up on underclassmen…

    it’s really really tough for a pg in summer league so i wouldn’t get too discouraged with IQ’s play.. i didn’t catch the game but being a good pg also depends on having good teammates who know what they’re doing and summer league rosters don’t lend itself well to that which is why most pg’s don’t look like pg’s in summer league… you’re just supposed to get some shots up in a quasi competitive setting…

    that said… i am a bit pessimistic on IQ’s year but that has to do with how the foulbaiting will effect him… if he’s going to be anything beyond a bench long distance guy he’s going to need to improve his ability to get to and finish around the rim that go beyond relying on an inconsistent floater and getting a generous whistle…. i’m pretty pessimistic given his inability to do that for three straight years now and how a large part of his efficiency came from his ftr…. we’ll see but i think his ability to play pg is going to be directly tied to how well he shoots in 2p territory and i’m pessimistic on that front…

  43. thenoblefacehumper: Lonzo Ball

    If the tampering allegations against the Bulls turn out to be true, then I’m not sure if there was much Rose & Co. could’ve done to bring him to NY.

  44. JK47:
    I hope a long form version of “Summer Of Soul” gets released. I’m sure there are hours more of incredible footage.

    Also Marilyn McCoo was all kinds of gorgeous. She’s in her 80’s now and still looks incredible.

    Amen to that, she was a stone cold hottie

    Also enjoyed David Ruffin doing “My Girl” solo

  45. They gave the lions share of minutes to IQ at PG last night, curious if they plan to give each PG a family that or if they’ll give it to IQ every game.

    Apparently Vildoza was jet lagged which may explain his brief appearance.

  46. If the tampering allegations against the Bulls turn out to be true, then I’m not sure if there was much Rose & Co. could’ve done to bring him to NY.

    Everyone tampers, so I don’t know that that is much of an excuse.

  47. that said… i am a bit pessimistic on IQ’s year but that has to do with how the foulbaiting will effect him… if he’s going to be anything beyond a bench long distance guy he’s going to need to improve his ability to get to and finish around the rim that go beyond relying on an inconsistent floater and getting a generous whistle…. i’m pretty pessimistic given his inability to do that for three straight years now and how a large part of his efficiency came from his ftr…. we’ll see but i think his ability to play pg is going to be directly tied to how well he shoots in 2p territory and i’m pessimistic on that front…

    We saw it when the Hawks got to see him X amount of days in a row. Once you play up on him so that he can’t shoot the long three, he only had the whistlebaiting and the off balance floater left. The first, you just try to play smart defense on (and now he can’t do it) and the latter, you just play him to a spot where he will have to take the floater no matter what and we saw him brick floater after floater in that series.

  48. Brian Cronin: Everyone tampers, so I don’t know that that is much of an excuse.

    Apparently “everyone” does not include the Knicks.

  49. IQ’s two-point shooting in the Atlanta series.

    Game 1 – 2 for 5
    Game 2 – 2 for 5
    Game 3 – 2 for 7
    Game 4 – 0 for 1
    Game 5 – 0 for 4

    It’s hard to imagine every other team just not copying Atlanta’s game plan with him.

  50. Apparently “everyone” does not include the Knicks.

    I don’t know why you would say that. We have two cases of teams maybe getting caught, but to think that these are the only two teams doing it, I mean, come on, that’s highly unlikely. The league came up with such big deterrents because they know everyone is doing it.

  51. I’m not down on IQ as much as it appears all of you are, i think maybe 1/3 of the fouls were foul-baiting, that will be erased, but a lot were him getting ahead of his defender on a PnR and then changing speed to force the defender to come crash on him. Those fouls will be there. And the others were just common fouls that will be there also.
    Also the floater may come to a mean between the fantastic start he had (we were making jokes about the Game of Floaters, remember?), and the difficult end of season.
    He’ll struggle, that’s for sure, and i don’t know how much playing time he’ll get, if he is indeed struggling, but i hope he can figure it out.

  52. I wouldn’t use the Atlanta series to dismiss player’s potential, or else we should have gotten rid of the whole team! :D

  53. Of course we tamper, unless you think the Burks, Noel, Rose, and Fournier deals were all worked out in 15 minutes or so. The Bulls and Pelicans are in trouble because they announced a sign and trade so early after the moratorium, which I guess the NBA thinks strains credulity to an unacceptable degree.

    It’s been reported tons of times that Lonzo had interest in coming here, it just seems like that wasn’t reciprocated on our end.

  54. I wouldn’t use the Atlanta series to dismiss player’s potential, or else we should have gotten rid of the whole team! :D

    There were a number of defensive looks that the Hawks gave the Knicks that will be adopted by every other team next season. The problem with Quickley is that their defensive scheme on him was just so logical that it’s hard not to see it being a problem.

  55. Its not tampering when you resign your own players!

    But obviously they were talking to Fournier before they were technically allowed to, correct? That’s tampering. Everyone does it. They didn’t lose out on Lonzo because the other teams were willing to tamper and they weren’t. If anything, they just didn’t seem interested in getting him.

  56. Is there a reason for the tampering rules? Why can’t i talk to a player that after his last game of the season is now free and should be allowed to talk to any team he wanted? He can’t sign a contract until free-agency is open, so what’s the problem in that?

  57. Brian Cronin: But obviously they were talking to Fournier before they were technically allowed to, correct?

    Are you sure?

    Fournier wasn’t on board immediately. There may have been hints earlier but it sure looked to me like a number of teams were in the running for his service – including the Celtics.

  58. i don’t think atlanta was really doing anything special against IQ… most defenses are going to deny the 3pt line and retreat back to the rim and give up whatever in between… the playoffs do generally give defenses more leeway so there were absolutely some no-calls on IQ that they would’ve given him in the reg season (while trae got every whistle imaginable for whatever reason)….

    i think that’s a good proxy for what he’ll experience this season but that has more to do with how fouls are called in the playoffs than anything atlanta was doing schematically…

  59. idk but Sims doesn’t look totally lost on offense. Sets decent picks, rolls to the rim well, and has shown good footwork/moves in the post. If Robinson/Noel go down with an injury, he wouldn’t be terrible to bring off the bench. Much better than Pelle at least, that’s for sure.

  60. cybersoze: I’m not down on IQ as much as it appears all of you are

    I’m not down on him. Judging the kid on the first summer-league game is, well, moronic. It’s what I expect of Marc Berman and hacks like him. He was 0-8 from 3 before he finally hit one. He made some nice passes that ended up as misses on gimme’s. He could have easily had 10 assists.

    Where he’s weak and hasn’t shown enough improvement is the ability to penetrate. He relies on the floater but needs to be able to go stronger to the hoop for layups. His perimeter defense also needs work.

  61. Brian Cronin: The problem with Quickley is that their defensive scheme on him was just so logical that it’s hard not to see it being a problem.

    I agree, Brian, i’m just hopeful he can get over it and maybe in the Atlanta series, as the whole house was on fire, he couldn’t do it.

  62. Jake Fischer reported a deal with Fournier was all but done before we were legally allowed to talk to him.

  63. dang TNFH, you must have one heck of a sports package (espn 3) to be viewing the game…

  64. Obi just seems to process the game a tick too slowly to really be successful. It feels like he’s always taking a second to decide what to do instead of letting his instincts and physical gifts take over.

    Much better game from Quickley today including some decent looking drives.

  65. dang TNFH, you must have one heck of a sports package (espn 3) to be viewing the game…

    It’s on NBATV!

  66. Are you sure?

    Fournier wasn’t on board immediately. There may have been hints earlier but it sure looked to me like a number of teams were in the running for his service – including the Celtics.

    As thenoblefacehumper noted, the contract details were announced for Fournier ($18 million a year over three years) hours before free agency technically began, at which point the Knicks were “allowed” to talk to Fournier (the extra fourth year team option is likely why there was a delay in announcing it). So, I mean, come on, right? They were obviously talking to him. No one was pretending otherwise. The “ban” on tampering is a joke.

  67. IQ went strong to the basket a couple of times, once in transition, once in halfcourt.

    Obi seems to wrong hand-wrong foot it a lot on drives.

  68. McBride is a cool customer…what a finish!

  69. Obi airball and then gets cooked by Duane Washington.

    It’s not what you want.

  70. Sims can’t handle the ball at all, he turned it over a lot at Texas

    IQ is way too good for summer league.

  71. Quickley’s handle really does look better and it’s nice to see him firing away. Still needs to figure out a way to get to the rim more often, especially with the new foul rules.

    The nice thing about Duarte being good is we can count that as a point in favor of our front office, because of how openly thirsty they were for him.

  72. I’m not sure if IQ can play PG, but if you just let IQ play his game you won’t be upset (at least based on the play-by-play)

  73. IQ picking up the phantom foul head snap from Trae…

  74. Quick not managing the clock all that well but sure is strokin it…floater is working.

  75. I have no idea why Wayne Selden is on this team but without looking I am going to assume he is repped by CAA.

    Quickley escaping some tight Duarte coverage with a floater. Probably his last game in summer league, not a lot more to prove here.

    Obi…yikes.

  76. Obi goes coast to coast and gets blocked by the rim when he should have pulled it out to kill time.

  77. I was initially thinking deuce needs to add some size, but, maybe being really fast is better for him…

  78. Z-man:
    Obi goes coast to coast and gets blocked by the rim when he should have pulled it out to kill time.

    That was bad

  79. It’s early but Grimes and McBride sure look destined to continue the tradition of having our 2nd round picks outperform our 1st round picks

  80. I see a bit of Landry Fields in Grimes, good rebounder, decent ball handler for a wing, not all that fluid.

  81. Grimes’ shot hasn’t come around yet but I’ve liked his passing, defense and rebounding. He’s played very within himself these past two games and he posted the highest +/- on the team I think. Again, worrisome shooting, but solid d, 6 rebounds and 4 assists is a nice game despite the scoring woes

  82. thenoblefacehumper: Quickley escaping some tight Duarte coverage with a floater. Probably his last game in summer league, not a lot more to prove here.

    Maybe, but I think it’s an opportunity to work on getting to the rim and running an offense. I think he keeps playing.

  83. thenoblefacehumper:
    It’s early but Grimes and McBride sure look destined to continue the tradition of having our 2nd round picks outperform our 1st round picks

    lol true. Still don’t get how he was there at #36

  84. I always look at shooting mechanics to determine if a guy can shoot or not and Grimes has a pretty solid form. He’s probably getting used to the NBA 3-point line and pace of the game. He’ll be ok. Whether he gets time of not is another question.

    McBride and Marcus Smart comparison is good, though hopefully McBride turns out to be a better shooter. His form is pretty good too

  85. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada:
    Grimes’ shot hasn’t come around yet but I’ve liked his passing, defense and rebounding. He’s played very within himself these past two games and he posted the highest +/- on the team I think. Again, worrisome shooting, but solid d, 6 rebounds and 4 assists is a nice game despite the scoring woes

    He’s probably going to take some time to adjust, but seems like a solid high IQ player.

  86. Also for all the criticism of not being able to play PG thru 2 games IQ has 16 asts and only 4 turnovers.

  87. Also for all the criticism of not being able to play PG thru 2 games IQ has 16 asts and only 4 turnovers.

    critique was pure treason

  88. ptmilo:
    Also for all the criticism of not being able to play PG thru 2 games IQ has 16 asts and only 4 turnovers.

    critique was pure treason

    Ha I was certainly critical of his game yesterday cause he looked awful but the stats paint a slightly different picture. Although his shooting has been poor but that’s the last thing I’m worried about with IQ.

  89. Much better shooting game from IQ, good assists number, he still got work to do (i.e. the shot clock violation), I hope he’ll play another game or two.

    Obi still does dumb things but he looks active on offense, alas his defensive blackouts are still there.

    I really like Deuce he’s got quick hands and looks like a bulldog.
    I have faith in Grimes’ shooting form, he must learn the new distance but he had a nice all around game.
    Sims he’s a nice pick at 58 and can learn a lot under Thibs and Taj.

    Rokas doesn’t look like he belongs as of now, but he’s young.
    Vildoza… meh, still jet-lagged or simply not so good?

    Fun game, way more watchable then yesterday’s.

  90. I liked when Thibs went over to IQ and said something to him after the game. IQ seemed to laugh.

  91. Sims didn’t have as good a game today, but I did see him obliterate a defender with a pick. I liked that.

  92. Rokas doesn’t look like he belongs as of now, but he’s young.

    I saw the P&T Twitter getting excited about a couple of Rokas plays. I guess they were anomalies in his overall game?

  93. We need to cut Vildoza and upgrade at the wing. We should look for someone with defensive chops, who can shoot the three at a .47% clip, has an Olympic silver Medal and can speak French.

  94. Rokas was obviously nervous, committing turnovers, and he doesn’t trust his shot at all. He’s pretty active out there and has good size. Hopefully we’ll have something there in a few years. McBride was very impressive and is a baller!

  95. We need to cut Vildoza and upgrade at the wing. We should look for someone with defensive chops, who can shoot the three at a .47% clip, has an Olympic silver Medal and can speak French.

    Realistically Evan Fournier’s .463 3PT% with the Celtics was probably a bit of a mirage and he’ll settle into 38-40% territory, and I think you’re giving him a bit too much credit on defense, but alas, don’t worry, we have him already!

  96. thenoblefacehumper: Realistically Evan Fournier’s .463 3PT% with the Celtics was probably a bit of a mirage and he’ll settle into 38-40% territory, and I think you’re giving him a bit too much credit on defense, but alas, don’t worry, we have him already!

    Touche!

  97. I like Grimes’ IQ and the stroke looks good but he can’t get any separation off of the dribble and he had a couple of embarrassing attempts in transition. The 3 ball is going to need to be 40%+ if he’s going make the rotation in the future.
    McBride actually ran the point okay for a bit in the second half- hope to see more of that in the remaining games. With Kemba and Rose likely to miss time for rest if not injury both IQ and McBride will probably see minutes there so I’d give them the reigns for the rest of summer league.
    Vildoza has been invisible so far and Rokas coughed the ball up any time he was touched so I can’t imagine them being rotation guys this year.

  98. IQ’s assists numbers are great but I don’t see NBA-level PG ball skills or court vision and those things are really hard to improve. Still, it’s a good thing for him to work on those skills in summer league, you never know!

  99. DudeInKnicksTown: DudeInKnicksTown
    August 9, 2021 at 4:17 pm
    DudeInKnicksTown:
    Repeated from yesterday.
    Comps:
    McBride: Marcus Smart
    Grimes: Courtney Lee
    Sims: Dwight Howard
    Vildoza: Austin Rivers

    Sims is somewhere between Dwight Howard and Moe Howard

  100. I saw the P&T Twitter getting excited about a couple of Rokas plays. I guess they were anomalies in his overall game?

    He had a couple of bad turnovers, pass a couple of opportunity to shoot,
    but it was his first game “in the NBA” so some nerves are understandable for a 20 years old.
    He has some tools to work on.

    Edit:
    Right now he looks too green to be an impactful guy, I don’t think he’ll start from day 1 at Barca with Abrines and Calathes but that can be a good thing.

  101. I see a bit of Landry Fields in Grimes

    too funny, i got the same vibe during the game…not overly athletic, but fundamentally solid with good game IQ…

  102. Vildoza: Austin Rivers

    spot on, without the – i need guaranteed court time thing…a 3rd string kind of guy that can play good situational minutes…

  103. I’m reading that Kemba gave back $20 million in his buyout with OKC and his new contract is worth between $16 million and $18 million in total for two years.

  104. mcbride continues to interest me…he looks really small out there, not harper small, but small…marcus smart: 6’3″ 220 lbs…mcbride: 6’2″ 200 lbs, and he’s gonna get bigger…i think i saw him get to the rim at least once…he can throw some long passes really accurately – oh wait, deuce was the high school quarterback guy…ah…

    yeah, quik is also a really interesting player – it’s kind of weird that he is a thibs kind of guy already, his game is still really wild and all over the place – he ain’t scared though, that’s for sure…i really wanna believe him when he says he’s a point guard…

  105. Sorry guys, I don’t see in Vildoza the Mad Bomber mentality and the misplaced overconfidence that sometimes helped Rivers changing (and winning) games.

    Vildoza’s more the prototypical EuroLeague player, team oriented, good passer, active team defender, shoots when is free or when the clock’s expiring.

  106. it’s kind of weird that he is a thibs kind of guy already, his game is still really wild and all over the place

    I think desperation — the team’s brutal point guard play pre-DRose trade, plus our generally inept offense — inspired Thibs to give IQ minutes he otherwise would not have for a rookie with his game. And IQ came up big in enough spots that he just stayed in the rotation, more or less, and thus was welcomed into the circle of trust. Whereas Grimes has a game that seems friendlier to the sterotypical conception of Thibs(*), yet he’s unlikely to play much barring injury.

    (*) I also think the stereotypes are overblown in some ways, particularly in regards to offensive scheme. Our caveman offense from last season was attributable to the microscopic preseason and the general crumminess of Poochie/Elf, but his Minnesota teams had pretty good and modern offenses, and pretty much every Thibs quote this offseason has been focused on that end of the ball. I don’t expect us to turn into Splash Brothers East or anything, but I wouldn’t be surprised if we’re more middle of the pack — or, at least, much more watchable — on that end, given both the talent upgrades and more time to actually install the offense.

  107. Has anyone else noticed that the rims in Vegas seem very soft? Seems like lots of bricks are rattling in…

  108. Z-man:
    Has anyone else noticed that the rims in Vegas seem very soft? Seems like lots of bricks are rattling in…

    That’s always the case in Vegas I think because those are college gyms and they use much softer rims.

  109. I’m reading that Kemba gave back $20 million in his buyout with OKC and his new contract is worth between $16 million and $18 million in total for two years.

    What we’re really waiting for is whether it’s a 1+1 or not. I don’t see how it couldn’t be, but if it isn’t, that’d be huge.

  110. Luka Doncic signs a 5 year, $207 million extension. Per Woj, “Doncic, one of the most accomplished players in NBA history at 22 years old and rapidly evolving into the future face of the league, becomes the first player eligible for the designated rookie max extension upon signing because he’s already twice been voted first-team All-NBA.”

  111. he really is something totally different…imagine what’ll happen when he gets in shape…

  112. Re: Obi – within the span of one game, I probably went back and forth 10 times between “this guy really sucks” to “well maybe he can be a productive NBA player”

    Overall I’m not very optimistic tho

  113. Having Kemba Walker for two seasons would be huge because then we get Early Bird Rights, no? Also, if he has a great season we don’t need to worry about having his salary increase 300%

  114. Having Kemba Walker for two seasons would be huge because then we get Early Bird Rights, no? Also, if he has a great season we don’t need to worry about having his salary increase 300%

    Yep, getting him for a guaranteed two years would be huge.

  115. Also, oddly enough a tweet came across my timeline where Julius Randle and KAT are confessing their love for each other publicly. Obviously all the good things are off the table (RJ Barrett), but could anybody see Minnesota taking a package around Obi Toppin, Quentin Grimes, Immanuel Quickley, the CHA 2022, DAL 2023, some 2RPs, and maybe the NYK 2022 1RP for KAT? That’s essentially 6 1st round picks to put around Anthony Edwards and a recommitment to tanking for the next two seasons.

    I can’t see it happening without RJ, but I feel like we’re going to hear a lot of guys talk about how much they love Julius Randle and New York City a lot more in the next calendar year. KAT and Julius are an interesting pair because they can both play inside out and they were Kentucky’s star recruit in back to back years. Not sure what happens to the defense but hey.

  116. Z-man:
    Does team option for year 2 = guaranteed?

    I think T.O.‘s are fully guaranteed, otherwise it would be listed as a partially guaranteed final year. Like Julius Randle’s 3rd year was essentially a team option, but it was reported as a 3 year deal with the 3rd year only guaranteed for like $4M if I remember correctly. Mitchell Robinson and Jalen Brunson, on the other hand, had fully guaranteed 4th years that their teams had to opt into.

  117. Brian Cronin: What we’re really waiting for is whether it’s a 1+1 or not. I don’t see how it couldn’t be, but if it isn’t, that’d be huge.

    “Walker agreed to a two-year contract with the New York Knicks worth between $16 million and $18 million in total.”

    Does this mean a 1+1?

    Keith Smith/Spotrac

  118. Considering that Dwayne Bacon can’t play basketball I’d say I’m puzzled by the decision to cut Vildoza (which is what I assume is happening?)

    Still, pretty much a nonevent. Neither player was going to get much if any time. Another somewhat silly move on the margins by the FO though.

  119. Considering that Dwayne Bacon can’t play basketball I’d say I’m puzzled by the decision to cut Vildoza (which is what I assume is happening?)

    Still, pretty much a nonevent. Neither player was going to get much if any time. Another somewhat silly move on the margins by the FO though.

    Yeah, I both don’t like the move and don’t care about the move one way or the other.

  120. I don’t know who Dwayne Bacon is, but I’m not sure signing him means we have cut someone. Remember, teams are allowed larger rosters for training camp than the regular season and we always take advantage of that.

  121. not sure who wayne selden is signed with, but, yeah dwayne bacon is a caa guy…

    i don’t know, if that’s the kind of shit that needs to happen in the background in order to get guys like kemba to wanna sign here, and get guys like julius to wanna take a team friendly extension – whatevas…

    it ain’t no ron baker kind of deal, so, keep it moving i guess…

  122. Jonathan Macri

    @JCMacriNBA

    The Bacon signing has Scott Perry’s fingerprints all over it – all the talent in the world, hasn’t yet translated. Probably coincidence, but in Kemba’s last 2 years in Charlotte, his best lineup mate by offensive rating was Bacon in both seasons. Whatever it was, those 2 clicked

  123. hey BC, that’s not you in the pic is it?

    not that there is anything wrong with the face in the pic, just wondering…

  124. 6-6 221,
    we were calling for an end of the bench wing, they obliged… :-)

    Luca’s gone now, right?

    P.S.
    Bacon was waived yesterday by the Magic, we can’t let a CAA guy out in the cold…

  125. Guys, it’s what KFNINJ said.

    In HoopsRumors.com:
    Although NBA teams are limited to 15 players (plus a pair of two-way players) during the regular season, each club can carry up to 20 players during the offseason. Teams don’t have to cut down their rosters from 20 until the day before the regular season. Players on two-way contracts count toward the 20-man offseason limit.

    Bacon is the Michael Kidd-Gilchrist of 2021. He’ll come to training camp and he’ll get cut. Simple as that.

  126. Knick fan not in NJ:
    I don’t know who Dwayne Bacon is, but I’m not sure signing him means we have cut someone. Remember, teams are allowed larger rosters for training camp than the regular season and we always take advantage of that.

    Good point, I forgot about the larger roster limit during training camp. Thanks for this, signing is a big nothingburger so long as he doesn’t make it to the regular season.

  127. Dwayne Bacon is definitely bad, so I hope this doesn’t come at the expense of Vildoza who comes with the intrigue of merely being probably bad.

    If it means we found a taker for Knox, that’s fine by me as Bacon is probably a marginally better backup 3.

    It also must be noted that Dwayne Bacon was quite frequently featured on the “league fits” Instagram account this past season, which posts pictures of NBA players wearing nice outfits. So with Frank Ntilikina off the team, we did have a “guy who appears more often in fashion highlights than basketball highlights” hole to fill.

  128. Was there an injury that I missed? Because Bacon has no role on this team..maybe other than keeping guys hungry *ba-dum-tss*. This has got to be CAA helping a client out. I don’t even want him on the team over Pinson

  129. hey BC, that’s not you in the pic is it?

    not that there is anything wrong with the face in the pic, just wondering…

    I’m working on something else that automatically showed my gravatar avatar for every post (the We3 dog I’ve been using here for years) and it just looked out of place to have the We3 dog show up on this other thing, so I just figured I’d use my Twitter avatar instead, which is a photo of me.

  130. looks like you don’t read Brian’s work. Here’s a link for you to check it out:

    that’ so crazy soze – i have visited comic book resources a bunch, so, i have seen the pic before – i just couldn’t put the two together…

    i like cbr, it’s like a comic book nerd’s paradise…when it comes to comics and super hero/villain stuff – bc’s the real deal…

    i’ve watched bits of suicide squad, but, i didn’t care for it so much…looking forward though to going to watch suicide squad 2…

    still not able to get any of the god kids in to the comics i have…pulled out all my Ultimate Marvel Team Up, my Ultimate Human, Ultimate Wolverine versus Hulk and even my Ultimate Spiderman: Sinister Six (easily one of the best stories and animation of its time)…nothing…

    oh well, i’ll read them again…

  131. how long you been writing professionally bc – how in the world are you so prolific – do you just keep like a journal, work on multiple projects at the same time, have a long list of topics you want to cover?

    is it stressful being a writer?

  132. Just saw that Bacon played in all 72 games last year including 50 starts for Orlando. I remember when he was drafted in the 2nd rd he was considered a big time sleeper pick but he just hasn’t been able to shoot good at all in the NBA.

  133. how long you been writing professionally bc – how in the world are you so prolific – do you just keep like a journal, work on multiple projects at the same time, have a long list of topics you want to cover?

    Ha! I actually do have a txt file where I note down story ideas when I think of them.

  134. I looked at Bacon’s B-R page and he’s one of those rare players who isn’t particularly good at like anything….

  135. Is there a Six Degrees of Separation game for Dwayne Bacon (like his namesake Kevin)?

    Like he’s connected to every NBA player in some way?

  136. ***Dwayne Bacon can’t play basketball***

    Well, apparently Dwayne Bacon CAN play basketball, but only with Kemba Walker. Kind of like how Jack Haley could only play with Dennis Rodman, I guess.

    (Speaking of Jack Haley, Jack Haley played on the 1991-92 Lakers with Vlade Divac. Vlade Divac played on the 2003-04 Sac Kings with Gerald Wallace. Gerald Wallace played on the 2010-11 Blazers with Nicolas Batum. Nic Batum played on the 2018-19 Hornets with Dwayne Bacon.)

  137. i imagine it’s like anything – seems super cool, but, once it’s your job, well, it’s your job…

    finally figured out why i couldn’t connect the pic to you – the pic looks way too professional for a dude comfortable with engaging in discussions about whether batgirl could ever really have a shot at kicking supergirl’s ass…

    now i’m thinking of some of my favorite comic book shops over the years…the comic bookie in claremont (great back issue collection), this tiny little shop in pacific grove – at the time i remember thinking how cool it would be to own a shop like that (i had no idea how that business really worked)…i remember going to this shop in pittsburgh that was close by a bridge, old building, but the shop was one of those two story places…it had so much stuff in it…

    any favorite shops over the years bc?

  138. geo: finally figured out why i couldn’t connect the pic to you – the pic looks way too professional for a dude comfortable with engaging in discussions about whether batgirl could ever really have a shot at kicking supergirl’s ass…

    That’s absurd. Supergirl has powers like Superman. Batgirl is a police commissioner’s daughter. ;)

    The buzz is that Bacon is a Scott Perry idea and that he SUPPOSEDLY paired well with Kemba in Charlotte. Remember when Perry was hoping to resurrect the careers of Noah Vonleh, Mudiay, or Hezonja? Am I missing someone?

  139. Speaking of comics watched The Suicide Squad last night, what a very weird movie. It was entertaining at least.

  140. Donnie Walsh:
    ***Dwayne Bacon can’t play basketball***

    Well, apparently Dwayne Bacon CAN play basketball, but only with Kemba Walker. Kind of like how Jack Haley could only play with Dennis Rodman, I guess.

    (Speaking of Jack Haley, Jack Haley played on the 1991-92 Lakers with Vlade Divac. Vlade Divac played on the 2003-04 Sac Kings with Gerald Wallace. Gerald Wallace played on the 2010-11 Blazers with Nicolas Batum. Nic Batum played on the 2018-19 Hornets with Dwayne Bacon.)

    So that means Dwayne Bacon played with Batum, who played with Gerald Wallace, who played with KG, who was in “Uncut Gems” with Adam Sandler, who was in “Murder Mystery” with Jennifer Anniston, who was in “Picture Perfect” with Kevin Bacon.

  141. finally figured out why i couldn’t connect the pic to you – the pic looks way too professional for a dude comfortable with engaging in discussions about whether batgirl could ever really have a shot at kicking supergirl’s ass…

    What’s funny is that the photo’s just from a phone taken at a bar for a friend’s book release.

  142. That’s absurd. Supergirl has powers like Superman. Batgirl is a police commissioner’s daughter.

    well DS, you do know squirrel girl did in fact kick thanos’ ass at one point…plus, batgirl has got good gear – good gear can carry you a long way in a superfight…

  143. okay then, i’m gonna leave it alone after this – cuz, my propensity towards forthrighteousness can get a little weird…

    you appear to be wearing a jacket in that photo, with the possible existence of a tie…coat plus tie does not equal cool comic guy…

    cool cartoon dog pic = cool comic guy…

    it’s like science…

  144. Do you know I actually got angry e-mails from multiple people about my old avatar, since it is from a comic where the dog in question is being experimented on by the military, so the assertion was that I was, like, pro-animal torture (I even later found a message board via an incoming link where people were complaining about me over the avatar). It was really stupid (since the comic book is obviously against what the military is doing and the dog is a big hero. There’s a bit with the dog’s heroics where my wife won’t even let me reference as she starts to tear up, it’s so heartwrenching).

  145. Which one is it? Sounds interesting.

    We3. It’s really great. I’m shocked it hasn’t been adapted into a movie yet.

  146. Brian Cronin: We3. It’s really great. I’m shocked it hasn’t been adapted into a movie yet.

    Grant Morrison wrote a lot of great thing but I missed that one, thanks Brian!

  147. So cool Geo’s doubt turned the topic to comics, instead of bacon. Going to check out We3, thanks for the tip, Brian.

    About Bacon, if we’re going that way, might as well Perry try to go get a player named Dwight Eggs (or something like that, don’t google it, i just came up with this fake name :P)… for us to have the hilarious pairing of Bacon & Eggs. :D

  148. About Bacon, if we’re going that way, might as well Perry try to go get a player named Dwight Eggs (or something like that, don’t google it, i just came up with this fake name :P)… for us to have the hilarious pairing of Bacon & Eggs. :D

    Or just get Jon Hamm season tickets at MSG along celebrity row?

  149. Alan: Or just get Jon Hamm season tickets at MSG along celebrity row?

    LOL. That’s easier. ;) For the Hamm & Bacon photos. :D

  150. Brian Cronin:
    Do you know I actually got angry e-mails from multiple people about my old avatar, since it is from a comic where the dog in question is being experimented on by the military, so the assertion was that I was, like, pro-animal torture (I even later found a message board via an incoming link where people were complaining about me over the avatar). It was really stupid (since the comic book is obviously against what the military is doing and the dog is a big hero. There’s a bit with the dog’s heroics where my wife won’t even let me reference as she starts to tear up, it’s so heartwrenching).

    That’s the most twisted manifestation of cancel culture I’ve ever heard!

  151. geo: well DS, you do know squirrel girl did in fact kick thanos’ ass at one point…plus, batgirl has got good gear – good gear can carry you a long way in a superfight…

    Thank you. I’ve learned something about super fights… I did own a Batman versus the Incredible Hulk crossover as a kid:
    https://www.amazon.com/Batman-Incredible-Hulk-Marvel-Comics/dp/B00T1WE7NE

    I am enjoying Obi’s summer league so far but can’t help but wish he had more room to spread his wings on this team. His MPG last season were 11 minutes and Julius’s were 37 so presumably Thibs doesn’t want them sharing the floor ever… Sims seems like a good get. If Mitch is slow to come back and Noel and/or Taj get hurt he seems like a much better backup plan than Pelle.

  152. Not trying to oversell it, but I think folks are sleeping on Sims. Watching him, I don’t think he fell because of age and stats. He really does look like he’s cut from the same cloth as Dwight Howard, and like Howard- the modern game really doesn’t make room for a player like that. Big, strong, and athletic with a throwback game. He knows his lane and seems to be a patient, heady kid out there. Quickley seems to unlock him a little bit too. We may end up converting his contract sooner than later as our 3rd big. I don’t think he’s gonna go quietly to the G League. He’s in a good situation with Taj on the roster and watching Mitch and Noel play.

    McBride is a gamer. Grimes hasn’t found his rhythm yet, but McBride looks like a natural out there. Quickley may have played his last SL game so Vildoza can get some work- or at least play minimalminutes the rest of the way. Obi may play one last game so that he can get used to being aggressive out there in his minutes. I’m ready for preseason lol

  153. Z-man:
    Is there such thing as a guy who shrinks the floor?

    After two full years of Elfrid Payton … this question?

  154. There was a debate on P&T the other day about the current market for bigs in the draft and the idea that there might be real value in guys like Sims who fall in the draft. Basically everyone is trying to emulate the Warriors now with a small ball line up and a dude like Draymond or they want to find the next Jokic, so they look for offensive skill in 5’s or dudes who can stretch the floor. So there could be real steals with traditional bigs who can play really good defense, rebound, rim rum but don’t have much else going on offense.

    I think there is some truth to this. You see how Capella got traded by The Rockets for nothing but then Atlanta has found him super useful. IT does mean you need shooting from the other 4 positions and probably a good point guard who can run pick and roll and lob to the 5, but I think dudes like Sims are now undervalued and are there for the taking.

    Its maybe why we should look to trade Mitch while he is so cheap and still has potential.

  155. DS, OBi’s minutes last year were deflated bc he was so bad to start the season. HE had a lot of games early on where he played like 5 minutes total in the game. If he plays like this and how he did in the last stretch of the season and playoffs, he absolutely will get more minutes and it could be really good for this team. LOVE RANDLE and maybe we ultimately do trade Obi, but we should be in no rush. Let Obi get more burn, let Randle get more rest so he isn’t as worn down. I don’t think that is the main reason he floundered against Atlanta, but Randle wasn’t quiet as good the second half of the season as he was the first and he led the league in minutes. If we can get Randle’s minutes down and Obi’s up and find a few minutes each game where they share the floor, it could really pay off later.

    And I just hope hope hope Thibs sees this. I don’t think this is the best team Thibs has ever coached. Nowhere near as good as the ECF Bulls with MVP Rose. But I do think this is maybe the deepest team he has coached and I hope Rose, etc…are in his ear about that and telling him to lean on that bench this season. We legit can go 10 deep plus Taj and the rookies.

  156. Dwayne Bacon

    We need a Bullock replacement.

    There have to be a few players out there there at the wing position that can defend and hit 3s even if they aren’t Bullock quality. Why are we wasting time with this guy unless it’s some kind of favor to someone?

  157. Funny thing is, everybody’s surprised about BC’s cbr stuff. If it wasn’t for my interactions with cbr and BC specifically, I would have never found this place.

  158. swiftandabundant:
    DS, OBi’s minutes last year were deflated bc he was so bad to start the season. HE had a lot of games early on where he played like 5 minutes total in the game. If he plays like this and how he did in the last stretch of the season and playoffs, he absolutely will get more minutes and it could be really good for this team. LOVE RANDLE and maybe we ultimately do trade Obi, but we should be in no rush. Let Obi get more burn, let Randle get more rest so he isn’t as worn down. I don’t think that is the main reason he floundered against Atlanta, but Randle wasn’t quiet as good the second half of the season as he was the first and he led the league in minutes. If we can get Randle’s minutes down and Obi’s up and find a few minutes each game where they share the floor, it could really pay off later.

    And I just hope hope hope Thibs sees this. I don’t think this is the best team Thibs has ever coached. Nowhere near as good as the ECF Bulls with MVP Rose. But I do think this is maybe the deepest team he has coached and I hope Rose, etc…are in his ear about that and telling him to lean on that bench this season. We legit can go 10 deep plus Taj and the rookies.

    I don’t disagree with any of your points except that ultimately they can’t share the floor, thus Thibs is unlikely to ever give Obi more than 20 mpg, and thus it’s a disappointment for a #8 pick… I think it’s pretty obvious that if anyone could have predicted what Randle did last season, they wouldn’t have picked Obi.

  159. DS…I mean we have Obi on a rookie contract for at least 3 more seasons. I agree its a disappointment right now but even saying that points to the current mindset of so many people. The idea that we have to get full value out of Obi right away or he has to fully succeed right away or else the pick was a waste.

    No one saw Randle doing what he did. And yeah, he just signed a 4 year extension, so he’s most likely here for awhile. But that doesn’t mean Obi can’t back him up for 15 to 20 a game and shine during that time. And RAndle’s extension, especially if he plays at an all-nba level, makes his new contract VERY movable. Not that I want Randle to be traded but who knows. In a year or two, maybe Randle is part of a trade for Zion or Luca and Obi takes over as teh starting PF?

    Or maybe Obi kicks butt as the back up and becomes a super valuable trade chip in his own right. We have him for a bit, so to me there is no need to rush anything. Sure, we probably should have taken Hali but that doesn’t mean Obi can’t still be useful to us. HAving a good back up PF on a rookie contract…there are worse problems to have.

  160. I’m really confused by How shitty Obi jumps in the paint despite being a Dunk Contest high flyer…
    Need to see more explosion and Strength from him to feel he’s an asset.

  161. there’s nothing wrong with rim running centers…. capela was traded because he was hurt and he made too much… otherwise he’s the quintessential guy of this archetype and he’s absolutely widely valued around the league as he’s both a monster on the boards.. a constant lob threat and amazing defensively…

    the problem with sims.. and most others of this archetype… is that he only approximates all those things.. and some better than others… he jumps pretty high but he has a pretty slow load.. sort of like knox… he’s clumsy on the offensive end and around the basket and far from automatic when he’s not dunking limiting the # of attempts he could have down low… that’s sort of a dime a dozen and very easily replaceable and so even some of these occasional eye popping lobs are mostly interchangeable with most other centers… and it’s very uncommon for bigs to improve in these areas.. you either have it or you don’t….

    he can be pretty successful despite all those things… but there’s a hard ceiling on a player of this type but like anyone else he can work hard and make a career for himself… i wouldn’t expect many things out of it tho…

  162. swiftandabundant:
    DS…I mean we have Obi on a rookie contract for at least 3 more seasons. I agree its a disappointment right now but even saying that points to the current mindset of so many people. The idea that we have to get full value out of Obi right away or he has to fully succeed right away or else the pick was a waste.

    No one saw Randle doing what he did. And yeah, he just signed a 4 year extension, so he’s most likely here for awhile. But that doesn’t mean Obi can’t back him up for 15 to 20 a game and shine during that time. And RAndle’s extension, especially if he plays at an all-nba level, makes his new contract VERY movable. Not that I want Randle to be traded but who knows. In a year or two, maybe Randle is part of a trade for Zion or Luca and Obi takes over as teh starting PF?

    Or maybe Obi kicks butt as the back up and becomes a super valuable trade chip in his own right. We have him for a bit, so to me there is no need to rush anything. Sure, we probably should have taken Hali but that doesn’t mean Obi can’t still be useful to us. HAving a good back up PF on a rookie contract…there are worse problems to have.

    OK; maybe similar to the way Omer Asik was stuck at the end of Thibs’s bench but Houston (Morey?) offered him a big contract to acquire him anyway.

  163. Watching Sims in Summer league you wouldn’t guess he was a high turnover guy in college- he’s caught everything and has made good decisions with the ball when he’s gotten it in the post. His footwork around the basket looks solid- definitely more polished than I expected. Given the high turnovers and crazy athleticism I expected him to be a little out of control but he’s been anything but. Two decent summer league games don’t mean much but he looks like a guy who’ll at least be a bench guy- maybe a deep bench guy but that’s still a good return on such a late pick. I do think he’ll have the same issues as Noel with bigger centers so I definitely wouldn’t be pushing Mitch out the door- he’s two inches taller, probably 15 pounds heavier and while he doesn’t jump as high, he’s quicker off of his feet than Sims. I think Mitch still has a chance to be special whereas Sims looks like he has a chance to be a decent rim-running big.

  164. I saw a proposed trade that was Mitch, Knox and 2 future second rounders for Miles Turner. Would people do this?

    Giving up Mitch would suck but Turner is the better offensive player and isn’t that old. I think he’s 25? His defense is still pretty good too. Also, frees up one more roster spot for someone else. We got all those future seconds we’ve acquired. I would be into it.

  165. I’ve seen a lot of Mitch trade proposals thrown out there and I’m pretty dubious that he has much value right now. He’s 12 months away from UFA, his health status is unknown but there have been worrying rumors, and last year his production was seamlessly replaced by a guy in Taj Gibson who was pretty close to out of the league. He’s young, but not a baby anymore – he turns 24 during the season, and he really hasn’t improved much since his rookie year (I would say not at all but the reduction in fouls last year was the one ray of light). The idea of him as a promising prospect seems about 18 months out of date to me. I can’t really see a team placing a high value on him in a deal.

  166. jarrett allen isn’t all that different from mitch and he got 20mm aav and was getting similar offers from toronto… i’m not sure if mitch gets quite that much given the situation is a bit different in ny and the injury but i certainly don’t think it’s a limited market…

  167. thenamestam,

    well yeah, that’s why the proposed trade would be him, knox and a couple of second rounders. Sure, Mitch’s value might be low now but he is still an intriguing prospect. If he stays healthy, he could probably resign with Indiana on a decent deal for them.

  168. Brian Cronin:
    Do you know I actually got angry e-mails from multiple people about my old avatar, since it is from a comic where the dog in question is being experimented on by the military, so the assertion was that I was, like, pro-animal torture (I even later found a message board via an incoming link where people were complaining about me over the avatar). It was really stupid (since the comic book is obviously against what the military is doing and the dog is a big hero. There’s a bit with the dog’s heroics where my wife won’t even let me reference as she starts to tear up, it’s so heartwrenching).

    Sympathies. During my teaching career, I had the opportunity to teach Huckleberry Finn a few times. I had one parent who confronted me and asked me why I was teaching a “racist” book. I asked her if she had actually read the book. No, she hadn’t, but she’d heard that it used the n-word frequently (it does).

    To her credit, she did listen as I explained/defended the book to her, and she did soften her attitude somewhat, but she still insisted that I give her daughter an alternate book to read.

  169. swiftandabundant:
    thenamestam,

    well yeah, that’s why the proposed trade would be him, knox and a couple of second rounders. Sure, Mitch’s value might be low now but he is still an intriguing prospect. If he stays healthy, he could probably resign with Indiana on a decent deal for them.

    Didn’t intend my comment as a direct response to yours, more just a general thought.

    But in that specific trade my questions would be more first, can we still generate enough space to do a deal like that? I’m far from a cap expert but the salaries aren’t matching at all and I’m not sure we can actually structure our other moves to have enough space to take Turner, maybe I’m wrong about that. Second, I don’t think a C is at all what Indy is looking for in dealing Turner. The whole reason he’s been in rumors for the last 18 months is the (lack of) fit with Sabonis and dealing him primarily for another C who would be an even worse fit with him does not strike me as at all what they’re hoping to do. I think both those are bigger issues with that specific deal than Mitch’s value in a vacuum.

  170. djphan:
    jarrett allen isn’t all that different from mitch and he got 20mm aav and was getting similar offers from toronto… i’m not sure if mitch gets quite that much given the situation is a bit different in ny and the injury but i certainly don’t think it’s a limited market…

    That’s a fair point. I think the general perception is that contract was one of the biggest mistakes of this offseason but it’s definitely the number Mitch’s agent will be pointing to (although I think Allen is a bit better as an offensive player specifically and that tends to get a guy paid). If Mitch does get a deal like that I really, really hope it’s not us who gives it to him.

  171. Stam is correct, that trade does not come close to working salary wise. Also, if you assume Mitch on his own doesn’t have a ton of value, Knox and two seconds is not going to alter that calculation much, if at all.

    More generally, I like Turner a lot but if we were to acquire him we’d have $30M AAV tied up in the center position between him and Noel and still wouldn’t have an elite center to show for it. It’s pretty hard for me to believe we could put together a highly successful team while doing that.

  172. ***Or maybe we could get CP3 to join our team. I can just hear Clyde say: Chris P. (to) Bacon***

    Why stop there? Buy OJ Mayo out of his Chinese league contract and roll out a backcourt of Chris P, Bacon, and Mayo.

  173. there’s not really all that much separating brook lopez and myles turner…. i know 3pt shooting is en vogue and all that but it’s not like brook lopez was amazing in the finals either… in fact he was having trouble to stay on the court in a lot of games also… i imagine turner will be the same….

    we know the rim running big archetype can be successful… capela has now made two deep playoff runs on two different squads… mitch isn’t capela and maybe he’s not even quite like allen… but he’s not all that far off from either and he has an advantage being able to hold his own vs embiid…. which if you’re trying to make noise in the east in the next five years you have to pay attention to…

    if he stays healthy he’s pretty valuable… and i think having noel in the playoffs kind of showed how much of a difference he is on offense while also providing better defense in the reg season… and we gave noel 10mm…. so how much is mitch worth in comparison?

  174. ptmilo: unfortunately looks like we didn’t get the 4th yr option on mcbride

    Clearly another move taking into account the 2023 cap space.

  175. The Honorable Cock Jowles:
    at least we’re not Dennis Schroder today

    that’s tuff

    I don’t really understand why his market has collapsed to quite this degree. His reputation is clearly not where it was when the Lakers offered him the $84m extension but I still feel like he can help almost every team in the league as a 3rd or 4th guard. Maybe he has offers at that level and just is holding out for something more that isn’t out there but the reported offer of 1 year at the taxpayer MLE seems like a real bargain to me. I know the Lakers have fully committed to a different direction but it wouldn’t be worth the tax payments to them to give him 1/10 with a player option for the 2nd year just as a talent play? Maybe there’s just too many hard feelings for a reunion.

  176. Valuing Mitch requires some strange math. Mitch averaged 3.6 offensive boards per game last year (Rudy Gobert had 3.4, Enes Kanter had 3.9). His presence in the paint causes a driver to stop and turn back. I don’t think there is a stat called “turnbacks”. He is a game-changing player, but without proof of an evolving offensive repertoire Mitch gets lumped in with Noel and unfavorably compared with Turner. He will have an opportunity to play with better point guards this season which should elevate his regular offensive game. The big question is if he will be allowed to put the ball on the floor, try a 10 foot jumper or employ different post moves this season.

  177. djphan: we know the rim running big archetype can be successful… capela has now made two deep playoff runs on two different squads…

    Capela, DeAndre Jordan and Tyson Chandler all average under 10 points a game for their playoff careers. Capela’s value in the playoffs has been defense and rebounding- rim runs disappear in the playoffs. Who was the last champion that had a one dimensional rim-running big as big part of their offense? Dallas with Chandler? The real issue is bigs who can’t guard the perimeter are toast in the playoffs. The Problem with Lopez and Turner is they can’t stay in front of guys on the perimeter- if they could they’d stay on the court.

  178. cybersoze: cybersoze
    August 10, 2021 at 2:28 pm
    ptmilo: unfortunately looks like we didn’t get the 4th yr option on mcbride

    Clearly another move taking into account the 2023 cap space.

      

    At least we have some bird rights if we want them…so what does that mean for the rest of the contracts…Kemba? Vildoza?

    I guess Knox is still in the plans…

  179. “The real issue is bigs who can’t guard the perimeter are toast in the playoffs. The Problem with Lopez and Turner is they can’t stay in front of guys on the perimeter- if they could they’d stay on the court.”

    Agree 100%. This is where Mitch’s value lies, he can move and switch pretty well, and no one gets out and blocks more three point shots than him. The tricky part is figuring out if it’s worth it to pay him what it will take to keep him with the risks his offense won’t improve, the injury bug is real, and/or the attitude issue becomes a problem.

  180. Capela, DeAndre Jordan and Tyson Chandler all average under 10 points a game for their playoff careers. Capela’s value in the playoffs has been defense and rebounding- rim runs disappear in the playoffs. Who was the last champion that had a one dimensional rim-running big as big part of their offense?

    i think looking at champions is a bit restrictive… we def do not have championship aspirations… and we have no idea what configuration we’ll settle into it if we get there at all… but the rim running center can be used in the playoffs but just like any limited player they will have a more limited impact against playoff defenses…

    but you can make deep playoff runs with them which is all we’re sort of looking for… and for the foreseeable future we need someone who can matchup credibly against the embiid’s and giannis’ of the world if we want to get deep in the playoffs… that may or may not be mitch but from my eye in past games that he’s matched up with either he does a decent job… and when he gets into his prime we’ll see if he can do an even better one…

  181. maybe I’m just impatient but it seems a little odd that we haven’t announced much of anything (is Fournier even official yet)? I wonder whether there are more machinations going on behind the scenes (ie. turning some things into S&T of some such thing).

  182. maybe I’m just impatient but it seems a little odd that we haven’t announced much of anything (is Fournier even official yet)? I wonder whether there are more machinations going on behind the scenes (ie. turning some things into S&T of some such thing).

    I think it’s all about ordering the signings, while debating whether to cut Vildoza and maybe try to use his money to sign one more dude (if they did that, they would have to do it before signing Rose, as they’ll go over the cap with Rose).

  183. Lonzo Ball's four-year deal in a S&T to the Chicago Bulls came in slightly less than was reported:21-22: $18,604,65122-23: $19,534,88423-24: $20,465,11724-25: $21,395,348Final season is a player option. $1M in unlikely bonus money per season for Ball.@spotrac— Keith Smith (@KeithSmithNBA) August 10, 2021

    I truly have no idea why we weren’t in on this. This is a great contract–good, young players will hardly ever be unmovable for value.

    I understand he’s not the kind of point guard who can direct an offense in the half-court, but we still easily could’ve signed Kemba and just signed Lonzo instead of Burks and Noel. Is there anyone who thinks that would’ve been a worse way to spend less money?

  184. i seen nothing you fascist pig assholes

    wow, just finished We3, that’s some dark and serious stuff…

    never really got in to much comics outside of more “mainstream” (DC, Image, Marvel, Dark Horse)…i enjoy The Boys, the Walking Dead and Preacher now, but, never really got in to the comics as far as reading them…

    dang, that the crazy We3 story was pretty jolting in some parts…i can’t remeber the name of it now, but, a little similar to some other government/military story i also read online not so long ago…yeah, that’s a story and some visuals that’ll stick with me for a while…

    dang bc, don’t you like happy stuff like the hulk eating half a dozen or so people in new york :)

    shit, spawn was cheerier than that…

  185. Johnson and Cooper doin work rn against the Pacers (countdown to someone reminding me it’s “only summer league” in 3… 2… 1… )

  186. Speaking of comics watched The Suicide Squad last night, what a very weird movie. It was entertaining at least.

    I think it was James Gunn’s best work. I loved his take on the material. In every SS story the main villain is and will always been Amanda Waller + The US government. Its not the monsters or even the reprobate criminals on the squad.

  187. i have been very encouraged by a lot of the young guys from this draft class and how they’ve performed in summer league… most of which have put in stupendous performances… yes just summer league but this class does have a chance to be very very good… and a lot of the guys we passed up on will probably end up making us look quite silly….

  188. thenoblefacehumper: Is there anyone who thinks that would’ve been a worse way to spend less money?

    Weakly raises hand.

    Partly I’m not sold on Lonzo. Could be wrong. But Burks solves a huge problem (lights-out shooting in a variety of ways — and he’s definitely better at 3% and ft% than Ball), Ball is a better passer by far but Burks can play the point, and frankly (sic) we have a pretty large stable of point guards right now, admittedly all with various question marks. But one thing we need is lights-out shooters. And Noel is the perfect antidote for any number of problems — if Mitch isn’t ready at season’s start, if Mich goes down again, and if Mitch is just fine then the two-headed dragon gives us 48 minutes of utterly insane rim protection. I think that’s worth a hell of a lot.

    Weakly puts down hand.

  189. Z-man: At least we have some bird rights if we want them…so what does that mean for the rest of the contracts…Kemba? Vildoza?
    I guess Knox is still in the plans…

    As i keep saying, i don’t think the money works. And now that you’ve wrote Vildoza and Knox in a row, i think that’s it, they wanted Knox on the summer league because they’re pondering which salary to dump, Knox or Vildoza. Of course, Vildoza is easier because it’s a non guaranteed, but probably some rebuilding team would take Knox gladly to check him out for a year.

  190. thenoblefacehumper: I truly have no idea why we weren’t in on this. This is a great contract–good, young players will hardly ever be unmovable for value.
    I understand he’s not the kind of point guard who can direct an offense in the half-court, but we still easily could’ve signed Kemba and just signed Lonzo instead of Burks and Noel. Is there anyone who thinks that would’ve been a worse way to spend less money?

    I agree with you, it’s a great contract and i would’ve done it. But not in the place of Burks and Noel, or would Fournier go to the 2nd team? And if so, wouldn’t he be very expensive for a backup? I think the decision would have been between Lonzo at 18.6M or Fournier at 18.1M, and the Knicks chose Fournier. Let’s hope they chose right.

  191. I agree with Djphan,
    SL caveat aside this draft class looks good and deep,
    a very nice infusion of talent for the league.

  192. Donnie Walsh:
    Quick question: if I don’t like Ted Lasso, am I dead inside?

    No, just means you haven’t had your heart and your soul sand-blasted as much as others have these last four and a half years. Bully on you.

  193. Raven and cybersoze, I agree the fit wouldn’t be perfect but: 1) at a certain point I think the value proposition has to trump those concerns and 2) I think Lonzo could slide in seamlessly to multiple roles. I’d start him at the 2, have him play PG in some lineups, and even experiment with spot minutes at the 3.

    Having Fournier be a handsomely compensated 6th man is probably the way I would’ve done it. I doubt he’d care provided the playing time and money was there.

    Of course it’s nice to have Noel in a vacuum, but I don’t think $10M AAV is good value for Mitch insurance. Especially considering we could’ve drafted IJ/Bassey/Queta etc. or just signed someone like Dwight or Drummond to the minimum or close to it–I am aware these are all worse options than Noel, but we’d be a lot better for having Lonzo.

    Burks is a nice player to have too, but between Kemba, Lonzo, and Fournier I think we would’ve addressed both our volume 3PT shooting and shot creation concerns to a degree that would’ve made letting him walk a worthwhile tradeoff.

    Admittedly none of these are easy calls, but what seals the deal for me is the Lonzo path involves a legitimate addition to our young core (ditto for any center we might’ve drafted in this scenario). Given that it’s far from clear this would even come at the expense of 2021-2022 wins (I personally think the team would actually be better), I’d view it as a win-win.

  194. Max:
    I agree with Djphan,
    SL caveat aside this draft class looks good and deep,
    a very nice infusion of talent for the league.

    Sigh is right

  195. Have you watched all of Season 1 Donnie?

    I agree with Raven’s comment as well. I needed Ted in my life.

  196. J. Johnson at 19, Lonzo, and Schroder at 5.8 would have been a way better offseason.

  197. Donnie, there’s nothing wrong with hating a popular television show, especially when you invested good time on those seven-and-a-half minutes of a mid season episode that your subconscious sorta absorbed while you focused all of your attention on something else. Don’t let anyone shame you for your tastes.

  198. Lonzo is an interesting case. He turns 24 right around the start of the season, and he hasn’t come anywhere close to being a $20 million AAV player yet. His peak TS% is .551, and while the trajectory is up, it’s legit to ask where it will top out. Is the improved FT% real? Hard to know because he hardly ever gets to the line. He’s a very good passer, but he also had a full season of ultra-creators like Ingram and Zion to pass to and the per36 AST numbers and AST% went nowhere. Is it because he can’t shake loose and get into the paint for lobs? Are his assists mainly on dump-ins and in transition?

    And then there’s his dad and the potential for drama if Thibs starts riding Lonzo to hard (in his Dad’s mind.) Maybe that’s overblown, but it is part of the negative pile.

    I get that he’s a shiny young piece and all, but giving him a TH2 deal with a player option is a big investment. Two things you know: Burks and Noel will probably give commensurate value for the next two years, with zero drama, and if either gets hurt or regresses they are expiring contracts. If Lonzo stays at or near his current numbers, or if Lavar raises hell, maybe he’s not that easy to dump.

    And that’s the problem with a quasi-win-now team with Thibs as its coach. Thibs likes continuity to a fault and since he and Leon already committed to Rose as the “finisher” (who cares who starts?) then paying Lonzo to essentially be Rose’s backup for the next 2 years is not enough of a sure thing to upset the apple cart. I’m kind of okay with it mainly because it’s in line with my expectations for this regime, and of course there’s Kemba and possibly McBride to look forward to. But I would have been happy if they decided to go with Lonzo.

  199. Schroder was exiled from a team who probably could have used him. Not really my cup of tea but again, I would have been okay with him on this deal. Maybe if Kemba wasn’t waived we would have jumped on him, and I’d way rather root for Kemba.

  200. Also, I don’t know whether Noel or Burks are truly worth the money, but I am happy to be rooting for them again, especially Nerlens. I certainly don’t view him as Mitch insurance…he’s better than that

  201. This has probably been the most entertaining summer league game of all time. I am very jealous of the Rockets’ draft.

  202. Z-man:
    Schroder was exiled from a team who probably could have used him. Not really my cup of tea but again, I would have been okay with him on this deal. Maybe if Kemba wasn’t waived we would have jumped on him, and I’d way rather root for Kemba.

    I don’t know if you can call it the team exiling him when they offered him an excellent contract and he refused it

  203. Green and Sengun might be the two most impressive rookies in summer league so far and they’re on the same team

  204. Knick fan not in NJ: I don’t know if you can call it the team exiling him when they offered him an excellent contract and he refused it

    Good point, but by the end of the year Magic Johnson was absolutely trashing him and there was no way they were bringing him back.

  205. thenoblefacehumper:
    Green and Sengun might be the two most impressive rookies in summer league so far and they’re on the same team

    After I read that Kevin Pelton had him number one in the whole draft, I really wanted Sengun.

  206. dang bc, don’t you like happy stuff like the hulk eating half a dozen or so people in new york :)

    There’s happy stuff in We3, too! “Home is run no more?” That’s heartwarming!

  207. ***Have you watched all of Season 1 Donnie?***

    Haha, no, no I have not.

    But I have watched the first two episodes. The first one back when it came out, and the second one today to “give it another chance”. Some people I know have watched season one multiple times and say it’s the best show they’ve ever seen. I want to feel it, but I don’t. The premise just feels so weak, and the writing lacks, I don’t know… sophistication? (Maybe that’s the charm of it?) (That’s why I wanted to take my pulse here at the KB off-season TV hive…)

  208. It is not sophisticated (although the references in the jokes are fairly complicated on occasion). It’s a salve, and a psychic soporific. I’ve enjoyed it because it’s fairly witty now and again, and because it admits to the existence of but refuses to indulge in cynicism or black humor or wallowing in pathos or even sarcasm, for the most part — which is a bit like watching a drama from the 1400s. Or a strange bit of performance art. But I indulge mainly because I’ve never known a self-medication I haven’t wanted to try.

  209. I’ve seen Ted Lasso and liked it well enough. I’m a Premier League fan so I enjoyed seeing a sitcom in that setting. It’s nice to watch beautiful people be kind to each other.

    At the same time, the show didn’t leave a strong impression on me. It’s comfort food that leans on emotional wish fulfillment like Schitt’s Creek or late period Parks & Rec. Everyone grows, everyone learns, conflicts get resolved without too much difficulty, and everyone gets their happy ending or their neat redemption arc.

    I watched S1 with my housemates, one of whom is a very wholesome and sweet guy, a real nurturing personality. We had fun pointing out all the ways Ted is similar to him. But my housemate gets on my nerves sometimes because he’s always trying to cheer people up. Sometimes you want someone to sit by you in silent solidarity when you’re dealing with bad shit instead of trying to fix your mood. You’re dealing with complex issues and don’t want it all to be wrapped up in a bow.

    Also, “white guy with can-do attitude fixes everything” is hard for me to identify with in general.

  210. I would say finish it and see how you feel. Not much else to watch on Apple+. It gets better.

    I watched the first quarter of the Rockets game. Green looked good but not great. Sengun got roasted on D once. I went to bed. They must have turned it up.

    Hollinger is a big fan of Sengun. Apparently had a 32 PER in Turkey at 18 which is unheard of outside of real NBA quality players.

  211. I have long gotten off the Summer League Hype train. It’s always fun to watch and this year it is particularly compelling, but ultimately it doesn’t tell you much.

    The best part is that there isn’t the historical 3-month dead zone between the end of summer league and the start of the regular season, which was a killer back in the day. Training camp opens on Sept 28, barely a month after Vegas ends!

  212. If you have Apple TV+ and are not watching For All Mankind, you are missing out. What an amazing show, especially in its second season.

  213. I don’t think Ted Lasso is super funny although I always love the 90’s music pop culture reference jokes. But I do think Ted Lasso is kind of groundbreaking in a lot of ways for comedy bc it goes against a lot of the standard comedy plot lines. I get what you’re saying about wish fulfillment, etc…but 99 percent of comedies use lying or miscommunication or keeping secrets from someone as plot devices. The characters do something bad, then lie about it or try to cover it up, get in more trouble, before eventually confessing and being forgiven and learning their lesson at hte ned of the episode or season.

    Ted Lasso purposefully doesn’t do that. When characters mess up, they admit to their wrong doings right away and they’re forgiven by their friends. It makes for less drama but I think it opens up more interesting plot lines.

  214. Schmiggadon on Apple TV is also really funny especially if you love (or hate) musicals.

    Apple TV is kiling it with their programming. I love that they’re purposefully not releasing a ton of stuff but going for higher quality. Physical is good too.

  215. Nerlens Noel's new contract with the New York Knicks includes about $4M in unlikely bonuses:21-22: $8,800,00022-23: $9,240,00023-24: $9,680,000Final season is a team option.@spotrac— Keith Smith (@KeithSmithNBA) August 11, 2021

    Turns out the original figure reported included unlikely incentives. This could help answer some of our questions, as the difference between his actual salary and the reported figure could be the cap space we used to sign McBride.

  216. thenoblefacehumper: Turns out the original figure reported included unlikely incentives. This could help answer some of our questions, as the difference between his actual salary and the reported figure could be the cap space we used to sign McBride.

    So it’s essentially a 2-year $9M AAV deal…not much different but still sounds better. Seems like they have a pretty good handle on capology at least.

  217. I recently made a comment that WWW was probably in the know about Kemba, which drew some light-hearted conspiracy theory fire from Hubert and more serious but fair criticism from djphan. Obviously it is total speculation, so I can’t argue with the criticism. It just seems that this kind of thing would be consistent with WWW’s job description. I mean, what other purpose does he serve in his professional capacity? His only real FO qualification is being incredibly well-connected around the league at all levels. It also doesn’t seem like a buyout would be shocking given that there was clearly no trade market for Kemba. So it doesn’t seem far-fetched that Wes might have heard from a source that Presti would feel around for trade offers but ultimately would reach a buyout deal consistent with Kemba’s wishes. It also doesn’t seem far-fetched that Kemba would have made it known that he would love to be on the Knicks….coming home, filling an obvious void…

    But I have absolutely no evidence for this other than WWW being who he is.

  218. If you have Apple TV+ and are not watching For All Mankind, you are missing out. What an amazing show, especially in its second season.

    As the kids say… this. FAM season 2 is my favorite thing I’ve watched in quite a while.

  219. Alan: As the kids say… this. FAM season 2 is my favorite thing I’ve watched in quite a while.

    I think I watched it when I read what you said about the finale, and it did not disappoint.

    I’m kind of shocked that a series that looks that expensive basically flew under the radar for the past two years. The production values are crazy high, but it’s backed up by good storytelling, compelling characters, and a super fun premise.

  220. It’s got no big stars and the premise requires slightly more explanation than some others. Plus, it’s one of those where you need to get about halfway into the first season until it really figures itself out. Which is pretty standard in TV, but sometimes harder to indulge when there are so many choices out there.

  221. Seems like all the contracts we’re giving out these days are very reasonable. No big overpays, team options, never any no trade clauses, fair market value for the type of players we getting. This is a HUGE step in the right direction for this franchise and makes all future moves like trades so much easier to get done.

    I mean just compare Burks to Courtney Lee. I would say they’re similar players as far as skill level usefulness at the time of signing. we’re paying Burks less than Courtney Lee made 5 years ago for less years with a team option. Noel is making less than Robin Lopez or broken down Noah. We can all quibble about draft picks or wish for bigger moves, but honestly its hard for me to get upset right now. Even if this team doesn’t do great, I think a pivot out of it will not be too difficult. Even Randle should be moveable within 2 seasons if worse comes to worse.

  222. Alan:
    It’s got no big stars and the premise requires slightly more explanation than some others. Plus, it’s one of those where you need to get about halfway into the first season until it really figures itself out. Which is pretty standard in TV, but sometimes harder to indulge when there are so many choices out there.

    Makes sense. And as one of the original Apple TV+ series, I think its spotlight was taken by The Morning Show and See, which seemed to be the two series that were heavily promoted when the service launched (I frankly can’t understand how they thought it was better to promote the really bad See instead of FAM, Jason Momoa notwithstanding).

  223. ***it’s one of those where you need to get about halfway into the first season until it really figures itself out.***

    Uh oh, that’s probably a half a season too long for me. But I just looked it up and see it’s got the guy from The Killing in it, which Lady Walsh is a big fan of, so SHE will likely watch it (per my imminent suggestion), and I will likely not watch it (but I will still review it, just so Jowles has something to comment on here during the lull between free agency and opening day…)

  224. Seems like all the contracts we’re giving out these days are very reasonable. No big overpays, team options, never any no trade clauses, fair market value for the type of players we getting. This is a HUGE step in the right direction for this franchise and makes all future moves like trades so much easier to get done.

    I mean just compare Burks to Courtney Lee. I would say they’re similar players as far as skill level usefulness at the time of signing. we’re paying Burks less than Courtney Lee made 5 years ago for less years with a team option. Noel is making less than Robin Lopez or broken down Noah. We can all quibble about draft picks or wish for bigger moves, but honestly its hard for me to get upset right now. Even if this team doesn’t do great, I think a pivot out of it will not be too difficult. Even Randle should be moveable within 2 seasons if worse comes to worse.

    Agreed. Burks is actually almost definitely better than Lee, ditto for Noel and Lopez (and Noah).

    These guys, broadly speaking, know what they’re doing. It’s a low bar but also a rarity in Knicks front office history.

  225. Yeah, this is all incrementally encouraging. In Brock We Trust, I guess.

    I am now excited For All Mankind.

  226. Re: the Noel contract – clearly the agents are the leaking party on FA day 1
    3 for 32 sounds way better to prospective clients than 2+1 year team option at $9MM AAV.
    wonder whether the Burks and Fournier contracts also include unlikely bonuses.

  227. Count me as someone who doesn’t get the Lasso love.

    It’s schmaltz… maybe slightly better than average schmaltz but also not particularly funny. And I have a problem with Sudekis always positioning himself as Mr. Modern Good Guy in all of his roles. He desperately needs to play a villain for a change.

  228. Noel’s contract should be enough to let us fit Walker & McBride under the cap without waiving Vildoza.

    Wouldn’t surprise me if Burks & others also have unlikely incentives.

  229. Frank: clearly the agents are the leaking party on FA day 1

    It’s kind of funny when you consider how much KB PTSD deja vu was was triggered by these initial reports. And if the deals were as reported, the anxiety attack would have been 100% justified.

    It’s sort of like when you expect a michelin star meal and get get handed a bag with a ham sandwich inside. Turns out to be a really tasty ham sandwich with excellent bread, cheese, hot peppers, gourmet condiments, and an unexpectedly delicious side order. Still a ham sandwich, but whatever.

  230. noble,

    Maybe Ball didn’t want to come here?

    I mean we do have to realize that sometimes a player signs somewhere else bc that’s where they want to go and there it isn’t just about the money.

    Not having Noel means hoping Mitch stays healthy all season with what, Taj and Sims as the only back ups? Thibs wants taht interior defense and now he’s guaranteed it even if Mitch gets hurt again.

    I liked the idea of Ball too but maybe it just wasnt in the cards?

  231. So, two years and 18 million for Kemba? Anything else in this deal?

    They’re still not disclosing details. It being a two-year deal and not a 1+1 would be so huge, but that would be a pretty huge ask.

  232. 2nd year is a team option?

    There hasn’t been any news on the second year either way.

  233. “Plus, it’s one of those where you need to get about halfway into the first season until it really figures itself out.“

    That, to me, is one of the things that disproves all the blather about a new Golden Age of Television. The need to invest multiple hours or weeks just to see if a show is any good is a big reason why so many supposedly great shows have such tiny audiences.

    The Walking Dead was about 75% fully formed after one episode. There was probably more narrative content in a season of ER than the entire run of Mad Men.

    Mike

  234. MBunge:
    “Plus, it’s one of those where you need to get about halfway into the first season until it really figures itself out.“

    That, to me, is one of the things that disproves all the blather about a new Golden Age of Television.The need to invest multiple hours or weeks just to see if a show is any good is a big reason why so many supposedly great shows have such tiny audiences.

    The Walking Dead was about 75% fully formed after one episode.There was probably more narrative content in a season of ER than the entire run of Mad Men.

    Mike

    ER was a weekly procedural, Mad Men was character study; of course there was more narrative content in ER.

    Since we’re talking about TV is anyone else watching The White Lotus on HBO? I think it’s hilarious.

  235. The Walking Dead was about 75% fully formed after one episode. There was probably more narrative content in a season of ER than the entire run of Mad Men.

    After strat’s take on January 6, I think this might be the scorching hot take of the year. ER? The primetime soap opera? Better than Mad Men? And The Walking Dead? The show that rolled out the same season-long story arc for like 24 seasons? Now tell me that Law and Order was better than The Wire because after half an episode, you “get” the structure of the show, whereas The Wire takes a few episodes to establish its conflicts and themes.

  236. That, to me, is one of the things that disproves all the blather about a new Golden Age of Television. The need to invest multiple hours or weeks just to see if a show is any good is a big reason why so many supposedly great shows have such tiny audiences.

    The Walking Dead was about 75% fully formed after one episode. There was probably more narrative content in a season of ER than the entire run of Mad Men.

    Walking Dead peaked with its first episode and has been unwatchable for a long time now. I love ER, but that was a procedural. The history of television is littered with shows that needed multiple seasons to fully find themselves: Star Trek The Next Generation, The Simpsons, and Seinfeld, to name three of many. To go with a more recent example, most of the first season of Breaking Bad is a pale shadow of what that show became.

    Your Sopranoses and your Cheerses that are great from minute one — and, unlike Walking Dead, stay great — have always been the exceptions, not the rule.

  237. Alan: Walking Dead peaked with its first episode and has been unwatchable for a long time now. I love ER, but that was a procedural. The history of television is littered with shows that needed multiple seasons to fully find themselves: Star Trek The Next Generation, The Simpsons, and Seinfeld, to name three of many. To go with a more recent example, most of the first season of Breaking Bad is a pale shadow of what that show became.

    Your Sopranoses and your Cheerses that are great from minute one — and, unlike Walking Dead, stay great — have always been the exceptions, not the rule.

    My wife still watches The Walking Dead or whatever spinoff is running….I couldn’t make it through the first season…so much contrived “drama.”

    And Mad Men had some great twists to the story…..the surprise reveal near the end of the pilot, for example. But yeah, it is more of a character study and a slow burn.

    The Wire was a show that took awhile for me to get into…I’m so glad that I didn’t give up too soon on it.

  238. thenoblefacehumper: Turns out the original figure reported included unlikely incentives. This could help answer some of our questions, as the difference between his actual salary and the reported figure could be the cap space we used to sign McBride.

    It is. With Noel’s salary, and the McBride rookie min, we have 2/16M for Kemba. If Burks and Fournier have 500k unlikely bonuses each, we can up the offer to 2/18M for Kemba and give the “standard” 120% rookie salary to Grimes (which would make a lot more sense, because i don’t trust Berman on this kind of info, i must say).
    I had Noel with a salary between 8M to 9M on my offseason plans, and they did it, so this is a very good signing now.

  239. well now, since we’ve migrated to a bit of tv talk, i’d just like to add: ANCIENT ALIENS IS SHOWING NEW EPISODES AGAIN!!!

    i can’t believe that show’s been running since 2009, it was simply meme worthy when it first appeared…so much has changed since then in the general public’s perception of the whole topic…

    the first episode of season 17 focuses on this site in peru called: Caral…it’s a pretty large complex that was built around the time of the pyramids – yep, about 2,000 to 3,000 bc, long before the Incas ever came along…there’s actually a few pyramid type sites around the world that date to that period…

    it’s interesting, the thought is now that the Incas didn’t build the stuff we see today in peru – they just occupied it during their period…lots of crazy megaliths and geoglyphs in that part of the world…

  240. This new Giannis biography…wow…as if I needed a reason to dislike Kidd even more than I already did. The guy sounds like a lunatic.

  241. Brian, I hadn’t seen those quotes before now. Yeesh. We already knew he was a control freak based on how badly things ended for him in Brooklyn and Milwaukee, but my god. Luka is going to hate playing for this a-hole.

  242. haven’t stopped thinking about We3 yet…looking at some of your old articles from 2009 on the comic…

    the thing that sticks with me more than anything is that i get the whole: fuck fascist pigs theme in the work – however, just based on the narrative/dialogue and the visuals of the work – it seemed like a very personal work, with a personal message in it…

    i just don’t know though enough about grant morrison to understand what morrison may have been going through or what they were trying to express exactly…the wiki auto-bio on him doesn’t really help…

    it’s well done, very intentional though…ugh, the image of that poor bunny…yeah, incredible journey it was not…

  243. Just saw the Kidd excerpts from the Giannis biography and they scream classic emotional abuser shit, it’s awful that he has any job in the nba, let alone one that puts him in such a position of power. And on the Mavericks, a team with its own serious allegations of harassment and abuse. Just shameful.

  244. At least the Mavericks will get Luka and la diva on the same page about something. LOL

  245. thank you al :)

    oh, and, just because i know everyone is super curious – here’s the link on Caral

    one of the things i enjoyed the most about the previous season was the increased focus on India’s history…space ships and little green men aside, i just know so little before the british arrived…

    they built some pretty amazing structures and did a real good job of documentation…

  246. I LOVE The White Lotus. Its amazing.

    “THIS IS THE GRITTIEST TV SHOW EVER! ITS SO REALISTIC!!!”

    – Me in high school watching ER when it was originally on the air

    “Are they operating on a mannequin?”

    -Me, rewatching ER today

  247. Vorkunov and Shams say the Kemba contract is two years, $18 mil total. No options. Unless Kemba is absolutely washed, this is a great deal. And even then, it’s not crippling.

  248. BTW, how much cap space will we have next summer? Knox comes off the books, as does Joakim effing Noah (sigh), but Randle’s extension kicks in. Will we be over the cap (which gives us access to the mid-level), or would we have some amount of space?

  249. Alan:
    Vorkunov and Shams say the Kemba contract is two years, $18 mil total. No options. Unless Kemba is absolutely washed, this is a great deal. And even then, it’s not crippling.

    Yes, even considering that he might blow his knee out this year, still worth a shot. I’m really looking forward to seeing him as a Knick.

  250. i remember the first time rose was here and how adverse he was to going over the screen on defense, or penetrating towards the rim on offense…he looked scared of any kind of contact on his knee…disappointing but, understandable…nowadays he just looks much more judicious penetrating (helps he can shoot from outside now) to the rim, and, he actually fights through screens – maybe one of the most startling rose developments last year was his defensive play (rose had a positive dbpm last year)…

    hopefully kemba can evolve his game to still be a 2 or more plus bpm guy while staying healthy…and, at least be neutral on the defensive end…

    RJ had a tough time finishing around the rim last year, if he can penetrate and either pass or finish more consistently – and – mitch comes back with a more evolved offensive game, it’ll balance out not having our point guard driving to the hoop for the first three quarters of the game…

    if we could get 65 plus games out of each next year – that would be amazing…

    edit: maybe 60 games???

  251. I believe we’ll be over the cap next year, but just barely so.

    If we waive Vildoza and Randle doesn’t meet his incentives, then we may drop under the cap.

    It likely makes more sense for us to operate over the cap to gain access to the mid-level rather than the room exception.

  252. Alan:
    BTW, how much cap space will we have next summer? Knox comes off the books, as does Joakim effing Noah (sigh), but Randle’s extension kicks in. Will we be over the cap (which gives us access to the mid-level), or would we have some amount of space?

    Spotrac has some estimates up. Including Vildoza we have $113M in contracts next summer. That also includes RJ’s $10.9M option, $5.3M option, and $2.3M option.

  253. Alan: Vorkunov and Shams say the Kemba contract is two years, $18 mil total. No options. Unless Kemba is absolutely washed, this is a great deal. And even then, it’s not crippling.

    Here are some Knicks from the vaunted 2008-09 team who made more in one-year salary than Kemba will at AAV:

    Eddy Curry
    Larry Hughes
    Al Harrington
    Cuttino Mobley

  254. Jesus, I’d forgotten that Cuttino Mobley was ever on the team, and I only remembered that Larry Hughes was when I saw his name on your list, Jowles.

    Isiah Thomas is a helluva drug.

  255. ***Now tell me that Law and Order was better than The Wire because after half an episode, you “get” the structure of the show, whereas The Wire takes a few episodes to establish its conflicts and themes.***

    Hey now, don’t just lump me in with Mike Bunge just because we are both prone to the occasional bad take. (Plus, that wasn’t even a major dig at the Wire cause I actually liked Law & Order (because when I was 20 I was already in the 60-74 demographic))

  256. “Here are some Knicks from the vaunted 2008-09 team who made more in one-year salary than Kemba will at AAV:

    Eddy Curry
    Larry Hughes
    Al Harrington
    Cuttino Mobley

    Ahh, the good old days – what a mess
    Don’t tell Kemba

  257. ***I’d forgotten that Cuttino Mobley was ever on the team, and I only remembered that Larry Hughes was when I saw his name***

    Mobley wasn’t on the team, just his contract.

    As for Hughes, he was traded for Jerome James in the lateral move to end all lateral moves.

  258. **Spotrac has some estimates up. Including Vildoza we have $113M in contracts next summer. That also includes RJ’s $10.9M option, $5.3M option, and $2.3M option.**

    Cap next year is projected at $115M. But we’ll also have money from our 1st rd pick hold (barring another pick 19 fiasco). We’re also likely to retain Mitch’s cap hold worth over $3M. So either of those should put us over.

    Even without the pick or Mitch, we’ll end up with more money acting over the cap so it’d make sense to retain some cap holds to give us access to the mid-level.

    We can sign 4yr deals with the mid-level, so our 2nd rd pick, Rokas, and anyone else we grab won’t run into the 2yr limit we had to work around for McBride.

  259. Mobley wasn’t on the team, just his contract.

    Well, now I don’t feel as bad. Part of the Z-Bo salary dump that backfired when A)LeBron didn’t want to come here in 2010, and B)Z-Bo turned out to be a really good NBA player when not asked to play alongside a guy with a very similar (but lesser) skillset in Eddy Curry.

  260. okay, so, other than writing long, pedantic, expository emails (man, if i ever ran in to me – i think i would totally annoy me) all day, been doing some more old shit snooping:

    – seems volcanoes even half a world away can really disrupt life/society for a location – didn’t know a volcano over by alaska (Okmok) helped lower the region’s temp in the mediterranean by 13 degrees or so around the finale for the fall of the roman republic (43 bc)…also, cuz of the stuff ash has in it (sulfate aerosols), a massive explosion can mess up the rain patterns and flood cycles throughout for a while…

    – interesting there’s evidence of written language around 4700 years ago in the middle east and egypt, a thousand years after that – south asia, another thousand years in china and europe…nothing though from the americas until almost another thousand years…

    ha, it’s kind of funny, to me at least – i’m one of those people that start answering your question before you’ve even gotten two sentences out…then i’ll talk incessantly hoping to cover any potential questions you may have had…

    yeah, there’s only so much time and space you know…

  261. Can’t complain about the start. Obi’s stroke definitely looks better, the results following sure would be nice.

  262. Quick looks sharp, so does Grimes. Obi a little sloppy now but outclasses every Laker athletically.

  263. The 3 from Joku was obviously nice, but more impressed with the finish in transition

  264. sims and travis both shooting from behind the arc, get that 3 ball ready, you’re turn is coming mitch…

  265. I mentioned this the other day, McBride looks like a player that Frank fans wishes Frank is.

  266. I’m curious now to see how deuce performs once he’s out there with a court full of NBA players…he can pass the ball pretty well, not sure what his hand size is, but he can hit guys in the hands…

    his handle’s not terrible…

  267. IMO, our rookies don’t look good enough to be rotation players at this stage. We’ll certainly have some injuries and rest days with Kemba and Rose. So eventually they’ll get minutes.

  268. Deuce!

    Watching this guy play, you get the impression Tom Thibodeau straight up threatened to quit if we didn’t draft him.

  269. I dunno, McBride looks good enough to be on the roster with some back and forth in the G-League.

  270. thenoblefacehumper:
    Deuce!

    Watching this guy play, you get the impression Tom Thibodeau straight up threatened to quit if we didn’t draft him.

    Yeah, definitely a Thibs kind of player.

  271. I dunno how many minutes he’ll wind up playing but McBride is definitely an NBA player.

  272. I think that judging any rookie in summer league is rather insane. What I look at are special attributes that can be honed and areas that need work. This is basically pick-up ball and many players in this league will never play in an official NBA game.

  273. I like what I see in the 3 American draftees. Grimes has a good spot-up 3, McBride is a defensive dog and Sims looks like a perfect 4th center on a 2-way contract.

  274. GoNyGoNYGo:
    I think that judging any rookie in summer league is rather insane.What I look at are special attributes that can be honed and areas that need work. This is basically pick-up ball and many players in this league will never play in an official NBA game.

    Yeah, I learned that the hard way by going nuts over Anthony Randolph’s summer league highlights. But you can look for small things that are required for NBA success. McBride looks like he can play D at an NBA level right now.

  275. Not loving what I see from Grimes. Some decent defense, but not seeing much more than meh spot up shooting offensively.

  276. Z-man: Yeah, I learned that the hard way by going nuts over Anthony Randolph’s summer league highlights.But you can look for small things that are required for NBA success. McBride looks like he can play D at an NBA level right now.

    That’s what you look for – something special, unique. McBride shows that he MIGHT be able to play D in the NBA. I want to see him on Trae Young before I evaluate him.

  277. Deeefense: McBride looks pretty good on both sides, but is he a PG or an undersized SG?

    He looks like a swing guard. He can handle the ball and I’ve seen some nice dishing by him.
    And if he can keep shooting like he’s shooting in this game, he will play a role this year.

  278. To echo some other KB comments now that I’ve seen him play:

    McBride is a baller. He gets up into guys on defense, love it

    IQ looks pretty good out there
    I like Obi a lot and want him to succeed but man does he look stiff. He has to be the most awkward looking allegedly athletic player I’ve ever seen.

  279. The best thing I’m seeing tonight is IQ going hard to the hoop. The worst thing I’m seeing is IQ taking care of the rock. Too many turn-overs. The new anti-Harden/Trae rules will impact him. Hopefully not too much.

  280. DEUCE DEUCE.

    Really fun getting to watch IQ operate at such high usage, gotta say.

  281. Jack Bauer:
    To echo some other KB comments now that I’ve seen him play:

    McBride is a baller. He gets up into guys on defense, love it

    IQ looks pretty good out there
    I like Obi a lot and want himto succeed but man does he look stiff. He has to be the most awkward looking allegedly athletic player I’ve ever seen.

    Yeah, this is very much what I see see Obi too. Everything seems labored with him, it feels sometimes like he’s just a hyperactive Kevin Knox that jumps high, tries hard but ultimately is just not coordinated enough to put it all together. I don’t think there have been many examples in history of players that look like giraffes on skates developing high end NBA level coordination and body control, but I guess we can hope he finds at least a niche where he can be useful.

  282. ptmilo:
    let’s not get carried away with mcbride tonight.the willis game is still a bit better.

    Another thread winner for pt

  283. I don’t know. I’ll have to see more of McBride. Even though he and IQ are different players, I think they are similar in that they really aren’t PGs. They are undersized SGs. Maybe he and IQ can get minutes at PG when Rose and/or Kemba are out or maybe McBride’s energy on defense will make up for his lack of size. But right now I still see IQ as a 6th man type and I’m not sure what McBride’s role can be, but at least he can play.

  284. Grades:
    IQ: A+ everything you’d want from a SL game
    Deuce: A+ Hit shot after shot in the 2nd half, would have certainly lost without him
    Joku: B looked so much better than last game. played under control and hard on both ends. Has a Goran Dragic looking 3 stroke.
    Grimes: B- I can’t believe those open shots won’t start falling. Hustles on D and rebounds.
    Obi: C The stats don’t tell the whole story, his overall floor game looked very shaly on both ends
    Sims: C- seems a step behind on both ends
    The rest: yawn

  285. Quickley looks great. Like I said the last game he’s too good for the summer league. Which is a great thing to see in a second year player. Obi looks like shit. He was like 4-11 inside the arc and turned it over a bunch playing against younger guys who mostly don’t have NBA experience.

    As for the rookies, the results were mediocre from Grimes but the process was pretty good. He took a lot of 3s and just didn’t make enough, but that’s fine in a tiny sample. He had 9 rebounds and didn’t do anything to fuck the team up. McBride looked great, but he shot preposterously well. Still, he had a nice all around game with 7 boards and 5 assists. So a little better than Grimes. Sims was pretty bad, fouling a ton and vanishing on the glass. At Texas he’d look physically dominant against a team like Kansas and then disappear against a mediocre team so it’s not surprising. I think he’s shown enough physical gifts to be worth his draft position at least. If he can learn to be consistent he should be able to be at least a good rotation big.

  286. Kevin Knox’s highest value after he was drafted was probably during his second season when there was still some hope he could at least be a rotation player.

    I think at some point we have to try and move Obi before the rest of the league realizes he’s sucks.

  287. geo:
    I’m curious now to see how deuce performs once he’s out there with a court full of NBA players…he can pass the ball pretty well, not sure what his hand size is, but he can hit guys in the hands…

    his handle’s not terrible…

    Geo. I saw him palming the ball with one hand during a stoppage. He’s got big hands

  288. Z-man:
    Grimes does not look ready for prime time.

    Grimes is very underwhelming. I think we could have chosen better. Joku looked good and displayed 3 pt acumen. Sims has regressed some since game one. Obi was running around out there like a chicken without a head. At one point Obi was running up to IQ to pick him off of the ground and he slipped and fell himself. Ughh.
    IQ was very active and the team leader and I love how Thibs talks to him immediately at the end of the game and imparts his wisdom on him. I see a deep bond there.

  289. i also like the time thibs spends with quik after the game, cool to see the old coach so invested in the young player…he almost hit 20 minutes a game last year, that number will go up…when kemba sits – he may start at point…

    if i had to choose a knick jersey to pick up right now – probably would be #5…but, that’s only because all the #2 knick jerseys just sold out…

    the number one may be available soon – it’ll be interesting to see how the knicks front office handle obi going forward…

  290. McBride can play on and off the ball. He’s an extremely unselfish player and looks like a future team leader. Tough defense for sure.. That shot is true, by the way!

  291. Didn’t watch the game, but getting a feel reading your comments here, looks like we are keeping the tradition to have the 2nd round pick look like a 1st, and the 1st like a 2nd.
    I was hoping (still am) for a better Obi, because if he regresses to last regular season Obi, Julius will play 38 mins a game and won’t be fresh come playoff time.
    Our 3rd option at PF manages to be even worst than Obi, maybe Leon does something about it, i guess.

  292. Will have to go watch the second half.

    I remember the way Mitch stood out in his summer league debut. Did not get that feeling from Sims. Although he is enormous and athletic. Mitch gets off the floor a lot faster.

  293. I’m not completely out on Obi….his 3pt shot looks improved and sustainable, he has some moves around the basket, and he can run the floor and handle the ball a bit. The Lakers were playing a very aggressive zone, and he kept driving into the teeth of it. He’s definitely got limitations that will keep him from being a star.

  294. While Summer League is basically glorified pickup basketball one can take some hints out of it, just as the scouts do every time.

    IQ’s leadership is evident and I like watching him use the glass a little bit more instead of leaning only on floaters,
    McBride has played well and is a pest on defense,
    Grimes looks solid all-around and his shooting form is fine,
    Sims isn’t Mitch but in three games showed more offensive moves than Mitch did in three years,
    Obi will never be a star or a good defender but could be a productive piece off the bench in the right system,
    Rokas played better and with more confidence, albeit his loading time is slow, he’ll benefit a lot from another year in Europe.

    Will all this things translate at the NBA level? Maybe, probably not, or maybe only some, but it’s fun to have something to hope for and some basketball to watch while we wait for october…

  295. >Where’s Vildoza?<

    If IQ and McBride are going to get time at PG when Kemba and/or Rose are out, we don’t need Vildoza. He showed very little in the Olympics. I’d rather have the space and open a roster spot.

  296. If Sims can legit be the 3rd string Center and actually play some productive minutes here and there when Mitch or Noel get banged up, then Taj can be the third string PF.

  297. The Vildoza question is interesting. I do not imagine he is interested in being the 5th string PG behind Kemba/Rose/Quickley/McBride. He can play off-ball also but it’s just hard to see where him minutes come from. Wonder whether we would guarantee this coming year and then trade him for a 2nd or something? From what people said at the time of his signing in April, he would’ve been a FA target this offseason.

  298. Grimes has done a good job filling up the boxscore despite his shot not falling. Hopefully this is just a minor adjustment to the NBA 3pt line. His 2pt shooting is worrying.

    McBride will find minutes immediately as a stopper for Thibs.

    Sims isn’t Mitch but could be a decent backup C to Noel if Mitch leaves.

  299. i wouldn’t go too crazy drawing conclusions from this team.. good or bad.. in summer league… it’s an older squad relative to others and you run into a team like the lakers and they may have one guy who will sniff the nba in their career and the rest will be selling insurance within a few…

    you can occasionally draw conclusions from the younger guys…. but then again there’s plenty of kevin knox examples where they hold their own and then proceed to do nothing… and then you have guys like kevin durant who did nothing and turn into one of the best players in the nba….

    in any case we don’t really have those kind of guys this year so this is all just theater at this point but it does get you familiar with the games of the rookies if anything…. but that’s probably it….

  300. If IQ and McBride are going to get time at PG when Kemba and/or Rose are out, we don’t need Vildoza. He showed very little in the Olympics. I’d rather have the space and open a roster spot.

    on a completely unrelated note, we should probably hold on to all the leftover backup game jerseys from last year and the files with everyone’s favorite post game snacks and travel friendly board games. purely for environmental purposes.

  301. IQ played in the NBA last year so what he does in summer league is essentially irrelevant, but no one should be surprised that he’s lighting it up. As noted during the discussions of him last year, he likely wouldn’t have fallen to the Knicks if there had been a regular pre-draft process, and if there had been a 2020 summer league he would have done basically this and we all would have been really excited.

    Quintin Grimes is even more stiff and unathletic than I feared and is really not showing anything, even against the inferior competition in Vegas. The contrast even with someone like Knox’s first summer league is stark. Still have no idea why or how the Knicks got so locked in on him. Obviously still early in his career, but not seeing anything there.

    Deuce McBride bears a very strong resemblance game-wise to Carsen Edwards.

  302. And of course l’incinération de la 19e sélection remains one of the all-time head scratchers.

  303. If Lillard, Beal, or some other disgruntled star to be named later becomes available and all we have is some bench rider they don’t want instead of an extra pick they do want we’ll be scratching our asses instead of our heads for not having enough picks to get the job done.

  304. I really wish McBride was 3-4 inches taller. He’s 6’ 1” without shoes and has a 6’ 8 3/4” wingspan. He comes in a couple of years older than Frank as a rookie, but he has the same tenacity on defense with a little more quickness, athleticism, and maturity. Hopefully his 3 point shooting hasn’t been a fluke. If he was a little taller and switchable I’d be salivating at this point. I just don’t see him as a traditional PG running P&R and he’s going to be undersized against some SGs. If we had a really tall PG or our offense was more driven by multiple playmakers (which I am in favor of anyway) it would matter less. But if we are looking for more ball handling, penetration and P&R he’s going to have to show me he can do that in the NBA.

  305. Summer league hall of famers:

    Marco Belinelli
    Kyle Kuzma
    Von Wafer
    Marcus Banks
    Anthony Morrow
    Josh Hart
    Anthony Randolph
    Nate Robinson

  306. Deeefense:
    I really wish McBride was 3-4 inches taller.He’s 6’ 1” without shoes and has a 6’ 8 3/4” wingspan. He comes in a couple of years older than Frank as a rookie, but he has the same tenacity on defense with a little more quickness, athleticism, and maturity. Hopefully his 3 point shooting hasn’t been a fluke.If he was a little taller and switchable I’d be salivating at this point.I just don’t see him as a traditional PG running P&R and he’s going to be undersized against some SGs.If we had a really tall PG or our offense was more driven by multiple playmakers (which I am in favor of anyway) it would matter less.But if we are lookingfor more ball handling, penetration andP&R he’s going to have to show me he can do that in the NBA.

    His height doesn’t bother me at all. Guys like Kyle Lowry and Chris Paul are excellent defenders and more than hold their own against bigger players. Marcus Smart is 6’3″ and easily switches onto players 5-6 inches taller than him, and even taller guys like KP who lack strength and over-the-top moves. This kid plays bigger than he is, and his wingspan is a plus. There was also a play when he went up and blocked a shot but was called for a phantom foul. He’s more than athletic enough.

    Not to go overboard, but I thiink he will at least be a plus defender and might evolve into something elite. We won’t know where he really stands until at least preseason, but I really like what I see.

  307. Man, I wish we were privy to the top-secret free-agency battle going on for Frank right now… the offers must be piling up at this point!

  308. ess-dog:
    Man, I wish we were privy to the top-secret free-agency battle going on for Frank right now… the offers must be piling up at this point!

    Yeah but it appears that Limoges has the inside track…

  309. If a “smart team” does sign Frank, but that team is in Lithuania’s Lietuvos Krepsinio Lyga, do both Strat and I get to declare victory?

  310. thenoblefacehumper:
    If a “smart team” does sign Frank, but that team is in Lithuania’s Lietuvos Krepsinio Lyga, do both Strat and I get to declare victory?

    One can safely assume that strat will declare victory unless Frank becomes a shoe salesman…

  311. Yeah, I think measurables are one of the least important things to worry about with prospects. Obviously all things equal you’d love a 6’5″ PG with a big wingspan over a 6’1″ PG but measurables seem to be something that will allows good prospects to fall in the draft for no good reason. The same way teams reflexively go with the young player bc of “upside.”

  312. swiftandabundant:
    Yeah, I think measurables are one of the least important things to worry about with prospects. Obviously all things equal you’d love a 6’5? PG with a big wingspan over a 6’1? PG but measurables seem to be something that will allows good prospects to fall in the draft for no good reason. The same way teams reflexively go with the young player bc of “upside.”

    See: Frank Ntilikina KB draft threads

  313. swiftandabundant:
    Yeah, I think measurables are one of the least important things to worry about with prospects. Obviously all things equal you’d love a 6’5? PG with a big wingspan over a 6’1? PG but measurables seem to be something that will allows good prospects to fall in the draft for no good reason. The same way teams reflexively go with the young player bc of “upside.”

    See: Frank Ntilikina KB draft threads

  314. The potential problem with McBride isn’t his measurables it’s that he may not be a true PG. His measurables are great if he is a PG but at 6’1″ his value goes way down if he is more of a combo guard than a PG. IF he was 6’4″+ then if he couldn’t hack it as a PG he could pivot to a 3&d wing.

  315. Good players find a way to be good and useful. That’s all I’m saying. The history of this league is filled with productive players who did well despite their measurables. I get what you are saying but if he’s good, he’s good and he will figure out a way to be good. If he’s not, he won’t be.

  316. Remember when we put Cole Aldrich in the summer league and he was by far the best player on the court

  317. Ben R:
    The potential problem with McBride isn’t his measurables it’s that he may not be a true PG. His measurables are great if he is a PG but at 6’1? his value goes way down if he is more of a combo guard than a PG. IF he was 6’4?+ then if he couldn’t hack it as a PG he could pivot to a 3&d wing.

    I don’t think there is a clear boundary between what constitutes a “combo” guard vs. a “point” guard in this positionless era of basketball. From his college stats it looks like he can play both on and off the ball, so where he plays will depend more on what the team needs. It looks like he’ll be able to defend players bigger than him…he’s tough, quick, has great hands and footwork, has long arms, and has a high bball IQ, We’ll see if the shooting translates, but beyond that he has the makings of an excellent 2-way guard both on and off the ball.

  318. The issue with McBride isn’t necessarily that he’s not a good enough distributor to be a point guard. It’s that he doesn’t put a lot of pressure on the rim and thus his opportunities as a playmaker have been limited (the two issues are linked of course).

    A decent model (i.e. great outcome) for him offensively is VanVleet. He’s similarly sized, a good-not-great passer, and also doesn’t put a lot of pressure on the rim. He compensated by becoming a damn good 3PT shooter at high volume and getting just barely respectable enough around the rim (and at least getting there with a lot of frequency) to force defenses to react.

  319. Another good thing about McBride is that he doesnt commit many turnovers. Thibs is going to love him.

  320. @ShamsCharania
    Source: Kawhi Leonard is signing a four-year, $176.3 million deal to return to the Los Angeles Clippers.

  321. thenoblefacehumper: The issue with McBride isn’t necessarily that he’s not a good enough distributor to be a point guard. It’s that he doesn’t put a lot of pressure on the rim and thus his opportunities as a playmaker have been limited (the two issues are linked of course).

    Deuce looks like some kind of amalgam of FVV, Lonzo, Jrue and Smart. The question is whether he will be heavier on their attributes or their flaws. He’ll be fun to root for.

  322. Source: Kawhi Leonard is signing a four-year, $176.3 million deal to return to the Los Angeles Clippers.

    Too bad. It really would’ve been something if he’d actually been able to get a 1+1 and spend the entire year rehabbing on Ballmer’s dime just to be a free agent again next summer. The ultimate expression of the player empowerment era – getting them to pay you the max for a year where you’re not playing just in the hope of staying in your good graces for your next free agency.

  323. I was curious if there had been any research as to the predictive power of summer league and stumbled across this recent-ish paper: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/334206944_Is_the_NBA_Summer_League_predictive_of_performance_for_NBA_rookies

    The conclusion is that for rookies, summer league performance is in fact somewhat correlated with performance in the following NBA season in terms of win shares.

    It suffers from all of the methodological flaws you’d expect e.g. win shares being far from a perfect proxy for performance and not having enough data to extend the analysis past a player’s rookie season. On top of that I’m not really convinced the authors properly controlled for age.

    Still, somewhat interesting. It’s worth noting some “standout” summer league performances we remember were actually pretty bad–Knox scored 21 PPG but had a .481 TS%.

    Josh Selby legitimately absolutely killed it though.

  324. Weakly correlated… an r^2 of .28 is not that strong. I think that makes some sense intuitively — it’s better to do well than do poorly in SL, but I wouldn’t put toooooo much stock in SL performance.

    Very cool find though TNFH!

  325. Win Shares is a player statistic which attempts to divvy up credit for team success to the individuals on the team. Full details are available below, but the important things to note are that it is calculated using player, team and league-wide statistics and the sum of player win shares on a given team will be roughly equal to that team’s win total for the season. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar’s total of 25.4 Win Shares in 1971-72 is the all-time single-season record and his 273.4 career Win Shares are the all-time career record.

    almost 60 fouls and 25 turnovers last night, still it was an enjoyable ball game to watch…

    that young guy, catcok or something, was a handful for them in the paint…

  326. i think hollinger or pelton did some research way back when into summer league.. i may have even posted it awhile back.. and from my memory i think they found something similar… it’s a weak relationship but it’s better to do good than not good but also that shooting %s don’t really matter but shooting volume does… which was interesting…

  327. In one recent podcast, I remember Hollinger saying something like his experience was that shoot first guards tended to look good in sumner league more than other players. He thought it was because summer league is more like playground basketball than the regular season is and defenses aren’t so well organized.

  328. six for six from three, seems like some lotto player kind of numbers…not a lot of excess movement in his shot either…he can palm the ball, but, seems to prefer using both hands to pass, and he’s good at hitting guys in their hands, which seems really hard with bodies in motion…he has some good repeatable mechanics…and he’s fast…

    i’m not really even looking towards his ability to defend, seems like he can do that okay – like a lot of other folks – i’m hoping against hope that we can somehow secure a nba starting level (or hope against hope: elite) point guard for a few seasons, in their prime…

    i’m doubtful on both quik and mcbride as point guards, but, other guys have surprised at the position…

    moved on from frank, forgot about knox, hopeful with mitch, confident in RJ, don’t have much hope for obi or grimes…there’s a chance though that quik and/or mcbride can help us win, now and later…

  329. I have mixed feelings about Grimes. The area he stood out in was rebounds. He got nine of them playing as a guard. That’s a big htt we lo but I don’t know if he can do that in the NBA.

  330. i can talk myself in to some hope, for sure…i wanna believe…

    the reality is – at the moment there are only like what 15 x 30 nba roster spots available, 60 something young players trying to make their way in each year, not everyone is gonna make it, whether they have a great personality or are fun to root for, whatever…

    it helps a lot that our recent young guys have been very likeable people…

    one thing that’s becoming clearer and clearer regarding our front office, they’re really maximizing roster value with a lot of their decisions…

    mitch and now mcbride on excellent deals…

  331. The same Jason Kidd who beat up his wife? He’s a piece of shit human being? No way

  332. Deeefense:
    I really wish McBride was 3-4 inches taller.He’s 6’ 1” without shoes and has a 6’ 8 3/4” wingspan. He comes in a couple of years older than Frank as a rookie, but he has the same tenacity on defense with a little more quickness, athleticism, and maturity. Hopefully his 3 point shooting hasn’t been a fluke.If he was a little taller and switchable I’d be salivating at this point.I just don’t see him as a traditional PG running P&R and he’s going to be undersized against some SGs.If we had a really tall PG or our offense was more driven by multiple playmakers (which I am in favor of anyway) it would matter less.But if we are lookingfor more ball handling, penetration andP&R he’s going to have to show me he can do that in the NBA.

    If McBride was 3 inches taller he would have been a lottery pick.

  333. Sharife Cooper’s ability to breakdown a defense and pass the ball has never been in question. His ability to shoot & defend? That’s another story.

    I’m not losing sleep over Cooper.

  334. Watching Faried (31 yrs old, career earnings over 57M), Beasley (32, over 40M) and slightly less Mudiay (25, around 16M) playing for the Portland SL team made me sad…

  335. Kawhi Leonard is signing a four-year, $176.3 million deal to return to the Los Angeles Clippers.

    So, we’re two highly likely Harden and Irving extensions, and one likely Lavine extension away from the heralded 2022 Free Agency crop being reduced to… Bradley Beal!
    I think the next best player is Rozier, if i read the list right.

  336. So, we’re two highly likely Harden and Irving extensions, and one likely Lavine extension away from the heralded 2022 Free Agency crop being reduced to… Bradley Beal!

    Seems like Leon read the room correctly in terms of realizing that stars just aren’t going to become free agents anymore, thus making max cap space less valuable than it was for most of the last 11 years. Obviously, there are downsides to his approach (we can’t weaponize cap space to acquire assets like before, and it’s possible that other teams may not want our assortment of mid-priced as part of a trade or sign-and-trade package), but the market overall has shifted dramatically the last few years.

  337. i think all you need to do is look at what miami has been doing for the last three years without any cap space and realize you don’t need cap space to get top flight guys.. hell chicago got all the top free agents without any cap space either…

    if anything rose n co may have been a year late in realizing that….

  338. Alan: Seems like Leon read the room correctly in terms of realizing that stars just aren’t going to become free agents anymore, thus making max cap space less valuable than it was for most of the last 11 years. Obviously, there are downsides to his approach (we can’t weaponize cap space to acquire assets like before, and it’s possible that other teams may not want our assortment of mid-priced as part of a trade or sign-and-trade package), but the market overall has shifted dramatically the last few years.

    Yeah, there definitely seems to be a realistic approach rather than the pipe dream bs of the Phil/Mills and prior regimes. There also seems to be a realization that chasing the Nets by starfucking is unnecessary in the court of public opinion, i.e. if you just put an exiting and reasonably competitive product on the MSG floor the vast majority of the fanbase will stay loyal and NYC will still be a Knicks town.

    To me, that approach is an underappreciated part of the anti-win now crowd. Even if a tear it down to the studs rebuild is arguably the most prudent approach to building a contender, if we were a deep lottery team last year and Durant’s feet were a bit shorter, the damage in the PR realm would have been severe. Last year’s run to the playoffs bought the FO time and latitude in going forward.

    Beyond a few “smart” folks here, Knicks fans don’t really give a shit that they made some weird moves on draft day. They want a team that’s not going to be a gif-generating laughing stock and suffer humiliating blowouts at home. They want some lunchpail blue collar guys who leave it all on the floor. They want guys from Ft. Greene and the Bronx to root for. They want some young, homegrown stars to get behind. Seems like this FO is all over that vibe and is playing the juggle win-now with patient rebuild act well.

  339. djphan:
    i think all you need to do is look at what miami has been doing for the last three years without any cap space and realize you don’t need cap space to get top flight guys.. hell chicago got all the top free agents without any cap space either…

    if anything rose n co may have been a year late in realizing that….

    This is fair, but you also have to consider the quality of the FAs they acquired. The Knicks possibly/probably could have outbid CHI and MIA for the guys they got, but may have concluded that they weren’t worth it, sort of what they concluded with Hayward. I, for one, was not excited about either Lonzo or Lowry on the deals they wound up signing.

  340. This FO has the team well positioned to be players in 2023 free agency, and possibly for a trade for a difference-maker before then. The nice thing for now is that they seem to be actually giving the young players a chance to develop as part of figuring out what is needed going forward. MIA is putting a lot of stock in that finals run being repeatable with Lowry in the fold. CHI gave up a lot for Vuc and even with all their moves still might not be a top-6 team in the East.

    This will be a really interesting year in terms of the battle for the 4-6 seeds in both conferences. You can kind of pencil in MIL, PHI, BKN at the top of the EC, and LAL, UTA and either LAC or PHX at the top of the WC. Then there is lots of parity. Even the bottom feeders are interesting.

  341. PHI is an unhappy team with a coach who doesn’t seem to be wonderful at managing a locker room. They had good health last year too. I could see them regressing and not being in the top three in the East.

  342. Owen:
    The Deuce McBride content you have been looking for.

    https://theathletic.com/2767961/2021/08/13/knicks-rookie-miles-mcbride-knows-the-way-to-get-on-the-court-in-new-york-and-hes-showing-it/

    Really hard not to get very excited about him. Love what I’ve seen thus far, He was hyped as our pick before the draft and I would have been fine with drafting him at #19. And that’s the thing…if we drafted him at #19 we never would have known that he would still be available at #36. Sort of like the reverse of the IQ situation. So weird.

  343. ***Beyond a few “smart” folks here, Knicks fans don’t really give a shit that they made some weird moves on draft day***

    Have we forgotten “The Crying Kid” already?

  344. Donnie Walsh: Have we forgotten “The Crying Kid” already?

    As things turned out, the reaction of the “Crying Kid” on draft day proved to be appropriate. Guess he was a pretty smart fan after all.

  345. Count de Pennies: As things turned out, the reaction of the “Crying Kid” on draft day proved to be appropriate. Guess he was a pretty smart fan after all.

    lol well we still have Grimes, a top-10 protected pick and a second rounder to show for it, (and I guess you can partially credit DSjr for landing us DRose), and there were busts galore surrounding KP in that draft, so maybe he wasn’t all that smart…

  346. I have an unpopular, devil’s advocate comment..

    First let me state that I am absolutely thrilled with adding Kemba and I believe he has more than enough in the tank to help the team for the next 2 seasons. But..I don’t remember Marbury getting this much “coming home” hype when he came to the Knicks. Corrected if I’m wrong, but when Marbury came- he was a better individual player than Kemba. Not a whole lot..but he was every bit the talent Kemba is and a little more. I would say the biggest difference between the 2 is Kemba learned to play winning basketball at Rice and UCONN. I think Marbury was just used to being used as the otherworldly talent he was at Lincoln and Georgia Tech. I don’t think anyone ever taught Marbury how to play winning basketball with his talent. Either that or he didn’t have the same level of humility as Kemba. Think about it- when Marbury came to the Knicks, he was a career 21ppg 8apg guy who could flat out dominate a game when he wanted to. What Kemba lacks in dominance, he more than makes up for it with his ability to play in clutch moments and his better shooting percentages. Numbers wise, Kemba is what- 20 and 5? I’m not saying this to say Marbury was that much better individually than Kemba- he wasn’t. But he was better. He was supposed to be great as a Knick. But he wanted to play the wayhow he play lol. Kemba won’t be that way so his impact will be greater. I just find it odd that Marbury didn’t get the type of hype Kemba is getting as a returning NYC star. Like..can you imagine if the Knicks were getting Kenny Anderson at that stage of his career? City would have gone nutso! I dunno..maybe everyone kinda knew Marbury wasn’t as good as his talent says he was all those years in Lincoln and GT

  347. Totes, your question is fair, but i think there’s some reasons for Kemba’s homecoming being more talked about than Marbury’s homecoming.
    First, there was no social media back then, so you relied a lot on the media to get hyped or not. Maybe the media felt it wasn’t a lock to go great and decided it wasn’t worth it.
    Second, he came during the season, it’s not the best situation to get hyped with the homecoming if your saviour comes and plays right away… and the team loses the first 2 games.
    Third, and last, the team Marbury joined was like this: Marbury, Houston, Van Horn, Kurt Thomas, Mutombo; O.Harrington, Penny Hardaway, Shandon Anderson;
    Kind of hard to get hyped about that team… but i got a lot hopeful when that move was made, thinking Marbury would solve the PG situation (and he did), and with some more moves in the coming summer we’d get a lot better, but… we got ISIAH-ed! :P

  348. RE: Marbury vs Kemba

    Maybe Marbury was a more talented player but was well known as a arrogant, selfish, me-first, close to uncoachable player, that requested a trade from Minnesota because was jealous of Kevin Garnett.
    At the time we knew what we were getting.
    We watched him play in our backyard with the Nets that despite his personal accolades never went to the playoffs (with the same Martin, Gill, Kittles gang that with the addition of Kidd went to two straight Finals, immediately after Marbury’s departure).

    Kemba is the better “player”, beloved by teammates and coaches, always fighting against the odds, always play balls-to-the-wall, reliable in the clutch. Exactly the kind of player we love to death.

    Marbury was always more Hollywood than New York, for a Knicks fan it’s not even close.

  349. cybersoze:

    First, there was no social media back then, so you relied a lot on the media to get hyped or not.

    Yeah, you’re right Cyber, totally different environment… what a good time…

    cybersoze:

    Maybe the media felt it wasn’t a lock to go great and decided it wasn’t worth it.

    He was a loser and a huge waste of talent, we knew that and the media knew it too…

  350. You’re right, Max, but i got hyped all the same. It’s like if Kyrie signed here instead of Brooklyn, although he isn’t my cup of tea, i’d be rooting for him (almost) as hard as if he were.

  351. Totes McGoats as Totes McGoats: I just find it odd that Marbury didn’t get the type of hype Kemba is getting as a returning NYC star.

    Totes, I hear you on this as Marbury was All NBA third team at the time he joined the Knicks. But I think one big difference is that the Marbury returning home hype got used up when he went from Minny to the Nets. In effect he was re-returning after a not very stellar first return. Even so, I do remember his trade to NY as a big deal at the time. It may be that we have subconsciously reduced the hype that actually existed given how his tenure as a Knick panned out.

  352. Kemba is getting the love because he is the first good player since Tyson Chandler to actually WANT to come to the Knicks. That he is a local product is just gravy. (And that he is damaged and came to NY only because they had the most cap space is ignored:)

    Marbury got a lot of “prodigal son” hype when he came here, but it was short lived because it was a trade, and that team was in decline, and, probably most significantly, his MSG debut was a complete disaster: a 30 point blowout to the Rockets where Steve Francis absolutely embarrassed him. It was an omen of things to come on so many levels…

  353. Moving up for Duarte or Murphy and getting Deuce in round 2 would’ve been ideal in retrospect, but we can only assume those deals weren’t available.

    Grimes seems like a great kid, and I’m rooting for him. I think his shot will start falling at a better rate, and he seems to have a decent enough handle. Actually, a guy currently on the team, Alec Burks, seems like an ideal role model for him, so maybe he’s in the right environment.

    Meanwhile, Tankathon has us taking six-foot PG Kennedy Chandler, Tennessee, in the 2022 draft. Does anyone know him?

    Z-man: lol well we still have Grimes, a top-10 protected pick and a second rounder to show for it, (and I guess you can partially credit DSjr for landing us DRose), and there were busts galore surrounding KP in that draft, so maybe he wasn’t all that smart…

  354. Max: He was a loser and a huge waste of talent, we knew that and the media knew it too…

    Yeah, he was. But at that time, when we made a signing, i usually talked myself into it, and how we would be getting to the 90s level with that move… and some others that would follow it. The ones that never happened, of course. LOL
    Then after Isiah i started to do the opposite, even if the move looked great, i always felt it would be a disaster because… #lolKnicks… and unfortunately i was right for more than a decade… oof, rough times we had.
    I now think Leon’s floor is OK, and that’s what we can ask right now. He’s steady, doesn’t do stupid sh*t just to make the headlines, i’m liking his style. We’ll only know his ceiling when he makes the “check-mate” move, i hope he does well when the time comes.

  355. Next year we’re gonna pick Julian Champagnie,
    we need a Johnnie on the Knicks and we can’t risk another Ron Artest fiasco… :-)

  356. Donnie Walsh: Kemba is getting the love because he is the first good player since Tyson Chandler to actually WANT to come to the Knicks.

    My recollection is that Tyson Chandler took the highest offer after Dallas decided he wasn’t worth the money.

  357. My take on the Kemba love is that the deal is so team friendly and it’s coming off of a miracle season engineered by a popular coach and a refreshing management team. He didn’t cost the assets that Marbury did, nor is he getting paid by our team anywhere near what Marbury got paid (especially % of cap-wise.) He wasn’t brought here to be the face of the franchise like Marbury was, and everyone knew that Marbury was a big question mark as a #1 guy. There’s really no comparison on the character front, Marbury was surly, uncoachable loner, Kemba is a charming, upbeat, great locker room guy. But if Rose traded IQ for Kemba and took on his whole deal and branded him as the face of the franchise, the reception wouldn’t be nearly as warm.

  358. I also think that intelligent Knicks fans were leery of Isiah, given his checkered coaching/FO history and MSG villian status as a player. Not that anyone should buy what Leon is doing hook, line and sinker, but the approach is far more deserving of trust and optimism (to anyone not named E, of course) than Isiah’s flurry of first-year transactions.

  359. Grimes seems like a totally fine prospect who I would have been happy selecting somewhere in the second round.

    One thing we kinda overlooked in all the back and forth was this: the defense of the draft is that the Knicks are saving their ammo for a trade. But even if you just stuck Jalen and Keon Johnson in the G League and called them up sporadically, I think they’d be more coveted in a trade than Quentin Grimes and a highly protected first from Charlotte.

    Keon Johnson probably sucks, so I won’t lose sleep over him. But I think he had value as a prospect, as evidenced by the Clips willing to trade up for him.

  360. One thing we kinda overlooked in all the back and forth was this: the defense of the draft is that the Knicks are saving their ammo for a trade. But even if you just stuck Jalen and Keon Johnson in the G League and called them up sporadically, I think they’d be more coveted in a trade than Quentin Grimes and a highly protected first from Charlotte.

    Yeah, there’s merit to the idea that future picks are often worth more than recently drafted players, but you can mitigate this by…drafting good players.

    If you think it’s necessarily the case that the future pick will be worth more (even in its heavily protected, quite possibly two seconds form), you’re expressing no confidence whatsoever in our drafting ability.

    Toppin is worth way less than the 8th overall pick now, but Quickley is worth way more than the 25th even with a year off his rookie-scale deal. At the end of the day, good players are what other teams want.

    The reason the trade of the 19th pick felt so jarring to people is specifically because they felt there were a lot of good players available (e.g. for me personally, my 9th, 11th, 12th, 14th, 16th, and 17th ranked players were all there). Obviously we have to wait-and-see on that, but the early returns sure lend credence to the idea we passed on a player who will be good, and quite possibly multiple players.

  361. tnfh,

    Yeah, this hard to argue with your logic, but at the end of the day you have only one guy to choose and the odds are not in favor of that guy being all that valuable a year or two down the road. The trade bugs me more because of the protections than the general concept. I don’t think the bet that CHA becomes a playoff team in the next 4 years is better than the bet that the #19 pick is worth more in a subsequent trade. But even 2 years out, you can definitely still market that pick as a lottery-protected #1 and #1’s with those kinds of protections are pretty commonly used in transactions.

    It seems that the initial “they did it again, and clearly don’t know what they’re doing” takes at the time are evolving into a “they are overall pretty competent but may have holes in their valuation of current draft position risk-reward game.” What I object to is the painting of the decision as “lazy” or “uninformed.” For example, it’s likely they clearly didn’t like Jalen Johnson based on their extensive research (and neither did I) so passing on him was not about forfeiting draft position. There’s certainly merit to the argument “well, just take him and if he bombs, you still can get all the other guys anyway by trading down from 21 and 32, and if he hits you have a stud at #19.” But if they really didn’t like anyone more than the guys they got, and their research led them to conclude that the future pick would likely have more value in a future transaction than burning the pick on one of the current guys you don’t really like, I can live with that in the larger context of what they did.

  362. The reason the trade of the 19th pick felt so jarring to people is specifically because they felt there were a lot of good players available (e.g. for me personally, my 9th, 11th, 12th, 14th, 16th, and 17th ranked players were all there).

    it really goes beyond player choices… at least for me… and that’s what made the move most egregious… there’s really no excuse for trading a decent pick in the teens for the possibility of never making a pick… that it comes in a draft with many viable choices and with a pick two spots ahead netting two actual first rders was just the finish to an offkey tune….

    and when it goes beyond player choices… you kind of have to grapple with the fact that this front doesn’t really know what it’s doing when it doesn’t value the draft properly…. or at all really.. because it’s now a pattern of behavior that’s established that they will take way less than what you should be getting for a pick in order to not even make one no matter what…

    that’s the sort of tunnel vision that has doomed front offices in knicks past… only this time some are excusing it…

  363. ***My recollection is that Tyson Chandler took the highest offer after Dallas decided he wasn’t worth the money.***

    Sure, there was money involved. But I mean he wanted to come here, i.e. he chose to come as a free agent rather than being dealt in a trade. (He was the last free agent signing that generated significant excitement from the fanbase).

  364. Hubert:
    Grimes seems like a totally fine prospect who I would have been happy selecting somewhere in the second round.

    One thing we kinda overlooked in all the back and forth was this: the defense of the draft is that the Knicks are saving their ammo for a trade. But even if you just stuck Jalen and Keon Johnson in the G League and called them up sporadically, I think they’d be more coveted in a trade than Quentin Grimes and a highly protected first from Charlotte.

    Keon Johnson probably sucks, so I won’t lose sleep over him. But I think he had value as a prospect, as evidenced by the Clips willing to trade up for him.

    We’ll have to wait and see on Grimes. I don’t see anything super-concerning about him yet, his shot will likely come around and he’s been defending and rebounding well enough and making sound decisions with the ball. Summer League takes are so unreliable that Grimes vs. either of the Johnsons is an impossible argument to have right now. For all we know, Sims might be a better trade chip than Keon in a couple of months.

  365. The 19th pick trade this year and the 30something pick last year are two of the only moves the FO has made that have really confused me.

    My sense as to why they made the trades at all = they truly do not think they can adequately develop more than 2-3 rookies per year (rookies, not other young players such as RJ/Mitch etc who also need developing). Ergo drafting two rookies (IQ+Toppin) last year, and trading out the other picks for the future. This year — drafting Grimes/McBride, a draft-and-stash in Rokas, and, well #58 holds zero trade value so they took a flyer on Sims who will prob be in the g-league.

    As to why they made the specific trades – harder to say. Trading out #33 or whatever it was last year for a 2023 2nd is straight bad value. Hard to defend that one. Re: 19 this year – seems likely they had a tier of guys they were happy to take that were all about equal on their board. If players from 19-36 are equal on your board and you only want 2 total rookies on the big club, then it makes sense to trade out the best asset for the most value you can get, trade 21–>25 and pick up a 2nd rounder, then pick whoever’s left at the top of that tier.

    If Grimes isn’t there at 25, then maybe they take Bones. If Bones and Grimes aren’t there, then maybe Josh Christopher is.

    Then when you get to 32 and maybe OKC calls with 34+36 for 32, well that’s a no-brainer. You get Rokas who maybe the scouts really like, and then you hope McBride falls to 36. If no McBride, then Jared Butler, Ayo Dosonmu, or JT Thor are all in that same tier.

    We really just don’t know at all how they value players and what their draft philosophy is. Clearly they feel good about trading down in the draft, which suggests to me that they either have great intelligence about who is going to be taken where, and/or they tier players and are comfortable drafting anyone in that tier in a certain draft range. So far it’s been good – we’ll see how it plays out.

  366. they drafted 4 guys this year, with 1 likely to be in Europe and 1 in G-league.
    Last year – they had trouble even getting enough minutes for Toppin and Quickley.
    Team is even better this year, and they’re going to have a hard time getting minutes for Grimes and McBride, much less if they drafted 1 or 2 more players.

    Possible/likely they really don’t believe in trying to develop rookies that will not have a chance at playing time, and that G-league is not ideal for development.

    You can agree or disagree but that seems to be their philosophy. As far as I know, none of us have ever been NBA players or coaches or understand the dynamics of a team, so hard to criticize as of now.

  367. Since no one was in favor of trading #19 or thinks it was a good move even in retrospect, it has become an argument about what it says about the FO’s overall competence. There’s a pretty wide range of opinions here. I’m personally very satisfied with the overall trajectory of the roster and the overall results of the drafting process even with the blips, and am thrilled with the current state of public perception of the franchise, even among the most caustic perennial critics in the media. That smells like competence to me.

  368. Team is even better this year, and they’re going to have a hard time getting minutes for Grimes and McBride, much less if they drafted 1 or 2 more players.

    we had roster spots open.. they CHOSE to fill it with Derrick Rose.. Alec Burks and Nerlens Noel… in spite of the choices available at 19…

    You can agree or disagree but that seems to be their philosophy. As far as I know, none of us have ever been NBA players or coaches or understand the dynamics of a team, so hard to criticize as of now.

    this appeal to authority is weak… is every front office move unquestioned because we don’t have experience? we all know that’s patently false…. KB hivemind has drafted better than every front office.. including the vaunted Leon Rose draft attack…. since isaiah thomas… we probably would’ve done better in every free agency too if we could ever agree on anything there…

  369. I understand their rookie moves. With Thibs and Rose’s “win now” mentality, it doesn’t make sense [in their eyes] to pay a high-upside #19 pick’s salary (nearly 2 mil?) to stay in the GLeague (a Josh Christopher or Keon Johnson type) when you can get two older guys (at a lower price) who can adequately sub for injured rotational guys up at the main ball club.

    Most people here feel that money is better spent grooming a young, high-upside player, but the FO assumes they will get their team leaders/stars through free agency/trade. It’s a different perspective, but it’s easy to argue that the FO’s is more conservative and offers less chance of failure. Most league “stars” are taken in the top 3 or 5 picks with some notable exceptions. And even if the Knicks do pass on an eventual future star, their take is probably, “oh we will just sign/trade for them later if they’re worth it.”

  370. ess-dog:
    I understand their rookie moves. With Thibs and Rose’s “win now” mentality, it doesn’t make sense [in their eyes] to pay a high-upside #19 pick’s salary (nearly 2 mil?) to stay in the GLeague (a Josh Christopher or Keon Johnson type) when you can get two older guys (at a lower price) who can adequately sub for injured rotational guys up at the main ball club.

    Most people here feel that money is better spent grooming a young, high-upside player, but the FO assumes they will get their team leaders/stars through free agency/trade. It’s a different perspective, but it’s easy to argue that the FO’s is more conservative and offers less chance of failure. Most league “stars” are taken in the top 3 or 5 picks with some notable exceptions. And even if the Knicks do pass on an eventual future star, their take is probably, “oh we will just sign/trade for them later if they’re worth it.”

    The predictable response it that we could have just dumped Knox or signed a cheaper FA than the ones we did. Pepole are pretty dug in.

  371. at the end of the day you have only one guy to choose and the odds are not in favor of that guy being all that valuable a year or two down the road.

    Again, this is a defeatist way of viewing the situation. It’s not the way a team with confidence in its drafting abilities would view it, and especially not in this specific context in which the only bar the player has to cross is a heavily protected first that may well become two seconds.

    But even 2 years out, you can definitely still market that pick as a lottery-protected #1 and #1’s with those kinds of protections are pretty commonly used in transactions.

    All kinds of picks are used in trades so of course this one could be used in one, but there’s no reason to think it will punch above its weight value wise. All other teams can see the protections, analyze the state of Charlotte’s team, etc. Not all “lottery protected #1s” are created equal, and we won’t get special credit just because this pick meets that broad description. It is exactly what it is: an unexciting pick that won’t generate much value on its own.

    What I object to is the painting of the decision as “lazy” or “uninformed.”

    Personally, I don’t really care what negative adjective is used to describe the transaction. If it wasn’t lazy or uninformed, maybe it was overly rigid, or panicked, or whatever. We lost the trade. It was one of many transactions in an offseason I give a B-/B, so everyone can make of it what they will.

    it really goes beyond player choices… at least for me… and that’s what made the move most egregious…

    I agree, the player choices just really twisted the knife. I suppose you could imagine a scenario in which the choices were so unexciting this trade made sense, but this was not it by a long shot.

  372. Since no one was in favor of trading #19 or thinks it was a good move even in retrospect, it has become an argument about what it says about the FO’s overall competence.

    I don’t think it’s about their competence. It’s about the impact of their attitude towards the draft, and what limitations, if any, come from it.

    This front office is not making boneheaded blunders that will sink us to the bottom of the league. But they may be making suboptimal decisions that will ultimately handicap us down the line. Something like: they pull off a trade for a star, but we’re left short one player in the starting lineup and end up with a vet minimum guy who is a weak link, as opposed to a draft pick who would be more serviceable rotation player.

  373. Team is even better this year, and they’re going to have a hard time getting minutes for Grimes and McBride, much less if they drafted 1 or 2 more players.

    The Hawks are better than us and will almost certainly not be able to give significant minutes to Jalen Johnson and Sharife Cooper right away. Ditto for the Sixers and Springer/Bassey. I don’t see anybody saying it was dumb of them to make those picks instead of trading them for future picks for that reason.

    Good things happen when you get a lot of good players on your roster.

    The predictable response it that we could have just dumped Knox or signed a cheaper FA than the ones we did. Pepole are pretty dug in.

    You are correct that Knox is really the low-hanging fruit here. There is not a single argument about minutes allocation or roster spots that makes any sense as long as he’s on the team. There is no way one can galaxy brain themselves into thinking having him for 1/$5.8M is a better use of scarce resources than having Jalen Johnson (or whoever else) on a rookie-scale deal.

    Keep in mind we could’ve literally just waived (not stretched) Knox and it wouldn’t have prevented us from doing anything we did, because we’re paying him anyway.

  374. The #19 pick debacle showed me that this front office really doesn’t understand the draft that well, and is not likely to maximize it in any way or get a ton of value out of it relative to the picks they hold. Their strategy seems flawed: they liked a few guys who were not likely to be available when they picked, and then when those guys were off the board there was no contingency plan, so they punted a pick and got a likely worse pick in exchange.

    The smartest teams are looking to squeeze value out of every opportunity. This FO’s record on the draft, so far, is that they whiffed on a lottery pick, got a good player in that same draft at #25, bungled a trade for a #19 overall pick, and drafted two relatively normie players and a reasonable draft-and-stash guy with late firsts/early seconds. That’s a very “meh” outcome considering the draft capital they inherited.

  375. thenoblefacehumper: It was one of many transactions in an offseason I give a B-/B, so everyone can make of it what they will.

    B/B- is a fair grade, we can quibble up to an A- or down to a C- but some posts are reading like D’s and F’s, largely on the basis of this one transaction and the actual pick made at the spots we eventually picked at. As I said, it is nearly universally agreed on that we probably lost value in this one transaction, but there’s a puncher’s chance that it will result in a favorable outcome down the road. The only questions are: how much current value did we lose based on what we actually know, and how relevant is it in judging the overall competence of this FO? If your grade is a B, you are sort of admitting that it’s not super important, and that’s even before judging the results in hindsight.

    The odd thing is that it seems pretty likely to me that had they just stood pat made the picks where they did, there’s a reasonable probability that they would have taken Grimes and McBride in those spots, and Joku at #32. They clearly systematically passed over everyone else that was available. That’s why I am not bent out of shape about this transaction and am much more concerned with whether Grimes, McBride and Joku are good picks or not. To me, that’s a more fun conversation because there are great differences here at KB on where Grimes and McBride should have gone. So far, McBride looks like a #19 or better in a redraft. Grimes, not so much.

    Trust the process or trust the results? I’m a results trumps process guy myself. The results of these particular transactions are not really apparent yet. I’m content to wait and see, given where we are in the big scheme of things.

  376. thenoblefacehumper: Keep in mind we could’ve literally just waived (not stretched) Knox and it wouldn’t have prevented us from doing anything we did, because we’re paying him anyway.

    But if you waive him, he stays on the cap and you could not have done some things that we did with the cap space that we had, such as keeping Vildoza. And to get Knox off the cap, you would have to trade him, which would certainly cost an asset as sweetener at his salary.

  377. In a redraft right now do you take McBride, Grimes, or Johnson at 19? Assume you only have one pick.

  378. But if you waive him, he stays on the cap and you could not have done some things that we did with the cap space that we had, such as keeping Vildoza. And to get Knox off the cap, you would have to trade him, which would certainly cost an asset as sweetener at his salary.

    He’s on the cap as it is, so the only difference in this scenario is the $2.7M cap hold from the 19th pick. Divide that among the first year salaries of Rose, Kemba, Burks, Fournier, and Noel and it’s a ~$540K haircut each. I don’t think that would’ve made the difference for any of them, but in the incredibly unlikely scenario in which it would’ve we could’ve stretched Knox. The rookie-scale deal for the 19th pick plus the ~$1.9M over 3 years we would’ve had to pay Knox still amounts to very good value for the player picked.

  379. If we had a redraft today I’m doing the same thing I would have done on draft night in round 1: Jalen Johnson and either Keon Johnson or Isiah Jackson in round 1.

    Assuming OKC still calls us to make the same trade, in round 2 I would have taken Cooper & Ayo on draft night. But now I’d take McBride & Cooper.

  380. so, wait – are we saying miles mcbride at an aav salary of 1.4 million for 3 years isn’t such a great value, or rose’s/burks’/julius’/nerlens’/evian’s deals are not such good values???

    or, are we just saying the front office doesn’t always get it right: #19?

    the not always getting it right thing, kind of sounds like something that happens with every single front office…it’s absolutely 100% justifiable to critique each and every front office move – to paint a broad stroke of FO incompetence since leon’s arrival, just doesn’t seem very accurate, eye test and all you know…

  381. ***But if you waive him, he stays on the cap and you could not have done some things that we did with the cap space that we had, such as keeping Vildoza. And to get Knox off the cap, you would have to trade him, which would certainly cost an asset as sweetener at his salary.***

    I suppose the best course would have been to decline his 4th year option prior to this past season. The writing was on the wall with Knox, and to nobody’s surprise here he hasn’t panned out. We had discussions about whether picking up the rookie options on Ntilikina and Knox were wise. There wasn’t much opportunity cost at the time, it seemed, so the consensus was to pick the options up (I may have been the only voice arguing to decline Ntilikina’s option). But the roster spot is valuable, and those lottery picks make significant money in years 3 and 4, so some foresight could have been exercised by the FO. Look at Phoenix: they declined the option on their #4 pick and three years later found themselves in the finals. (No when to hold ‘em, know when to fold ‘em (or something like that…))

  382. Trust the process or trust the results? I’m a results trumps process guy myself. The results of these particular transactions are not really apparent yet. I’m content to wait and see, given where we are in the big scheme of things.

    The thing is things could turn out well for us without changing the fact that this particular move was dumb. Every dumb move makes it that much harder to reach contention, but only Phil Jackson level blunders truly preclude it.

    The Bucks’ winning it at all doesn’t mean it was retroactively smart that they traded 20 year-old Tobias Harris for 5 months of JJ Redick. That move made it less likely they’d eventually be contenders, but they made it up for it with other smart moves (one in particular involving the 15th overall pick).

    If Jalen Johnson or someone else we passed on becomes an impact player and the Charlotte pick fizzles out, no outcome for us will change the fact that the move was stupid.

    Obviously, the better our eventual outcome the less people will care about that, and rightfully so.

    In a redraft right now do you take McBride, Grimes, or Johnson at 19? Assume you only have one pick.

    Johnson, McBride, Grimes in that order, which is no different than the order I had them pre-draft.

  383. (I may have been the only voice arguing to decline Ntilikina’s option)

    You were not.

  384. Really what it boils down to is that the FO had a much different list of players it wanted — in an order that probably didn’t match the list of any poster here. I had Jalen Johnson, Jared Springer, and Josh Christopher higher than where they went and Primo, Kispert, and Mann lower than where they were drafted. It will take time to figure out who is right and wrong on these, but it seems like the consensus is usually pretty solid, and the Knicks draft fell largely outside of the consensus. So be it.

  385. Can we revisit the Spurs drafting Primo at #12? Because WOOF. I’m still amazed by that.

  386. It will take time to figure out who is right and wrong on these, but it seems like the consensus is usually pretty solid, and the Knicks draft fell largely outside of the consensus. So be it.

    it’s really not going to take time … the front office basically said that nobody at pick 19 or later was going to be useful for them to the point that they would rather have the possibility of not picking at all rather than actually using it…

    just like last year’s bet that anybody in the second round was not going to turn into a useful player…. that is a bet that is just not going to work out…. and the number of useful players picked after pick 19 is going to show the magnitude of that mistake just like with the kevin knox pick….

    just like with the eddy curry trade that everyone can recognize was entirely stupid… eddy curry could be an allstar… and we could’ve been a playoff team… but that’s just a completely unnecessary risk to be taking….

  387. Everyone wants to praise Pop and co. for White and Murray but I think that over the past decade, it looks more like they have had no clue what they were doing in the draft.

    They drafted Samanic one slot ahead of Thybulle, Vassell one slot ahead of Halliburton, Lonnie Walker ahead of Huerter and now Sengun on the board while they draft Primo.

    It makes no sense.

  388. ***You were not.***

    I believe you. I remember the general consensus being that since the Knicks had nothing better to do than try to grow young talent that the options should be exercised. And I just dipped into the archives to confirm, and found this amusing tidbit from 2017 by a poster named Stratomatic says “NY basketball is back”:

    “Setting salaries aside, I’m not sure I would trade Frank for Kemba straight up. In fact, I know I wouldn’t. I think there is a 10% chance Frank is the best all around player on the team in 2-3 years.”

    Ironically, the Knicks effectively swapped out Frank for Kemba 2-3 years later. If only Stratomatic says “NY basketball is back” still posted here, we could ask him if he still thinks this. (We could also ask him ot sure why a professional gambler would bet so confidently on “a 10% chance”).

  389. i saw somewhere recently that there is increasing evidence which suggests that the reason sleep is so important is to not overwhelm our cognitive abilities with a lot of excess and extraneous data – we sleep to forget…

    basically, by “not forgetting” we can kind of jam up our ability to process new events…

    can we just move on from frank already :P

  390. Geo, You are sharp today! Thanks very much. Plus, between you and me, I don’t see trading 19 as that much of a blemish. I mean, it might convey 19 next year and we may draft a sleeper superstar.

    And Z-Man thanks for your steady takes. Particularly, casting a thoughtful eye on the L Ball and K Lowery contracts.

    Question for you, both (and anyone else) I haven’t heard anyone talk about Quickly’s lack of a lefty finish. Seems to me (but it’s eye test) that he finishes right handed on the left side of the hoop. That seems to be the one PG skill he lacks, no? And it is fundamental and might explain the reliance on the floater?

    PS. Off hand layups are one of my favorite things.
    Oh yeah, and can we get a new thread please? I’m begging….

    geo:
    so, wait – are we saying miles mcbride at an aav salary of 1.4 million for 3 years isn’t such a great value, or rose’s/burks’/julius’/nerlens’/evian’s deals are not such good values???

    or, are we just saying the front office doesn’t always get it right: #19?

    the not always getting it right thing, kind of sounds like something that happens with every single front office…it’s absolutely 100% justifiable to critique each and every front office move – to paint a broad stroke of FO incompetence since leon’s arrival, just doesn’t seem very accurate, eye test and all you know…

  391. geo:
    hahahahahahaha…

    We’ve wasted lottery picks on Frank, Knox, and maybe Obi. It’s a shame.

  392. Everyone wants to praise Pop and co. for White and Murray but I think that over the past decade, it looks more like they have had no clue what they were doing in the draft.

    i don’t think pop does much on the drafting side.. he has some input but he himself also said that he almost stopped the kawhi trade because he liked george hill so much…

    and the front office itself isn’t some infallible engine… i mean the raptors have had a near flawless draft record but that’s absolutely not normal…. but the spurs and buford have had one of the best track records despite some questionable decisions… here’s their last 10 years of picks:

    2020: Devin Vassell
    2019: Luka Samanic.. Keldon Johnson
    2018: Lonnie Walker
    2017: Derrick White
    2016: Dejounte Murray
    2015: Nikola Milutinov
    2014: Kyle Anderson
    2013: Livio Jean-Charles
    2012: none
    2011: Cory Joseph

    and even not factoring in the foreign stashes being made due to roster crunches of championship squads… and the fact that they were picking in the very late first round for 90% of these picks… they had a 60% hit rate on rotation players… they were absolutely punching way above their weight…

    and in recent years they had a mandate to go for a lot of upside given the absence of top flight difference makers.. which is understandable… that almost explains the primo and walker picks so i get it… i don’t agree with it but i see the rationale… and the draft requires taking some risks and some of the ‘mistakes’ in hindsight are just a residue of the risks you have to take in order to stay relevant in the association… a roster full of keldon johnsons and dejounte murray’s is nice but it’s not making much noise anywhere…

    because the biggest risk.. more often than not.. is not taking any….

  393. The Honorable Cock Jowles:
    Everyone wants to praise Pop and co. for White and Murray but I think that over the past decade, it looks more like they have had no clue what they were doing in the draft.

    They drafted Samanic one slot ahead of Thybulle, Vassell one slot ahead of Halliburton, Lonnie Walker ahead of Huerter and now Sengun on the board while they draft Primo.

    It makes no sense.

    I’m with you bro, the magic is gone…

  394. I haven’t heard anyone talk about Quickly’s lack of a lefty finish. Seems to me (but it’s eye test) that he finishes right handed on the left side of the hoop. That seems to be the one PG skill he lacks, no? And it is fundamental and might explain the reliance on the floater?

    howdy dan, i hope all is well for you :)

    I haven’t noticed his hand usage, i’ll keep an eye on it tonight…

  395. danvt: And Z-Man thanks for your steady takes. Particularly, casting a thoughtful eye on the L Ball and K Lowery contracts.

    Thanks dan, alswys like when you weigh in!

  396. Berman:

    Knicks rookie center Jericho Sims will sit this one out tonight vs. Detroit for “rest”. PG Luca Vildoza still out with sore foot.

  397. The announcer thought that Grimes had just checked in when he had actually played the previous 7 minutes. He’s low impact, from what I’ve seen.

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