Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Saturday, September 21, 2019

NY Post: Development-focused Knicks add ex-Westchester coach Mike Miller to staff

Brian Lewis at the Post brings up an interesting point regarding the Knicks’ promotion of their G-League coach to a position on David Fizdale’s coaching staff (replacing Howard Eisley, who went to go join Juwan Howard’s coaching staff in Michigan).

He notes, :

Miller — not to be confused with the sharpshooting former NBA champ with the Heat — won G League Coach of the Year in 2017-18. Now he gets a promotion to the NBA, filling the last vacancy on David Fizdale’s bench. Miller neatly fits the player-development ethos the Knicks are trying to instill.

“Mike is an accomplished and respected coach who has been an integral member of the Knicks family the last four years with Westchester,” Fizdale said in a statement. “Mike is a great addition to the staff, a relentless worker who shares our approach to the game with an expertise in player development.”

The interesting thing is that, for a team that is supposedly all big on player development, they didn’t seem to have a whole lot of guys known for player development, no? It makes you wonder if there is an avenue here for Miller to make a real name for himself if the Knicks falter out of the gate.

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336 comments on “NY Post: Development-focused Knicks add ex-Westchester coach Mike Miller to staff

  1. Hubert

    Jeffrey Epstein wrote a will just two days before his suicide, saying he had about $578 million in assets that he placed in a trust, which could complicate efforts by women who say he sexually abused them to collect damages.
    Epstein, who died Aug. 10 in a federal jail cell in Manhattan, asked that Darren K. Indyke and Richard D. Kahn be appointed as executors, according to a copy of the will filed Aug. 15 with the court in the U.S. Virgin Islands.

    Experts say that it’s not unusual to write your will days before you unexpectedly die, but it is far more common that people who create a will one day and die the next day knew they were going to kill themself.

  2. Brian Cronin Post author

    This article makes me feel a lot better about the Taj Gibson overpay. Wish we had signed him instead of Noah!

    Yeah, that was a sweet article. It doesn’t really affect my opinion on the signing either way, but it definitely is a nice story.

  3. Totes McGoats as Totes McGoats

    @2, @3
    Yea that’s big time to me, because I think Perry & Mills knew that’s why Gibson wanted NY. Maybe perception around the league CAN change for our Knicks

  4. thenoblefacehumper

    Re: Knox, it seems important to note in the SF vs PF debate that he is a woeful playmaker and I see no reason to believe that will ever change. I don’t know where to find NBA positional averages for things like AST%, but for SFs I’m fairly certain the average is a lot higher than our boy’s 6.0%. That doesn’t necessarily mean Knox can’t be a SF, but if you’re putting him there you’re putting a ton of pressure on your guards in terms of both playmaking and ball-handling (he can handle a bit in transition but you really don’t want to see him doing it in the half-court).

    Overall, because of his plus shooting and not-totally-awful transition ability I think he has the necessary skillset to be an NBA player. Not a particularly impactful one, but not Frank Ntilikina either. Here’s what worries me though; I think in order for him to become legitimately productive he needs to basically limit himself to spot up 3s and transition opportunities. Is a guy who was a top-10 recruit, lead Kentucky in FGAs, got drafted in the lottery, and then lead the New York Knicks in FGAs as a rookie going to be willing to do that? Color me skeptical, so I’m still seeing either a bust or a badly overpaid chucker.

  5. d-mar

    I was looking at the schedule again, and I still can’t believe they took away the MLK game at the Garden. I was trying to think of the rationale; I kind of get why they took the Christmas Day game away, as that’s a big ratings day for the national networks and we’re not exactly must see TV, but what was the league thinking with the MLK day game? Maybe it’s just a big FU to Dolan?

    We’re now officially the Charlotte Hornets of the north. )-:

  6. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    Experts say that it’s not unusual to write your will days before you unexpectedly die, but it is far more common that people who create a will one day and die the next day knew they were going to kill themself.

    His cellmate was transferred hours before his death, on the very same night that he was unattended between 3 AM and 6:30 AM. Did he just guess right on both counts while preparing that will?

  7. JK47

    I don’t know how much it really matters in the big picture, but the free agents that got brought in over the offseason are all pretty likable, and many are considered to be good teammates. I’m a cold hard stat guy and I’ll be the first to say that “good teammate” kind of stuff is overrated, but the veterans are all pretty likable and hard working. Well, maybe not Bobby Portis. He seems like kind of a douche.

    But the rest of the team, for the most part, seems rootable enough.

  8. Hubert

    His cellmate was transferred hours before his death, on the very same night that he was unattended between 3 AM and 6:30 AM. Did he just guess right on both counts while preparing that will?

    The whole thing with Epstein seems to revolve around people thinking that rich and powerful people had the ability to orchestrate a murder in prison.

    Yet those same people are somehow closed to the possibility that a rich and powerful person had the ability to orchestrate his own suicide in prison.

    I don’t really have an opinion either way, that just strikes me as stupid.

  9. Owen

    Bobby Portis doesn’t seem very rootable. I don’t know. I hope he surprises us all.

    For some reason I like Mike Miller, who I totally thought was the former NBA player. Excited to have him on the staff.

  10. Z-man

    Knox, it seems important to note in the SF vs PF debate that he is a woeful playmaker

    This is true, both in 1200 college minutes and 2100 NBA minutes

    and I see no reason to believe that will ever change.

    Of course, because he was obviously a finished product at age 19. I mean, seriously, how can you possibly say that? Here’s a clip from summer league, where Knox makes several nice passes for assists. Obviously it’s only summer league, but the vision, decision-making, willingness and mechanics were there. Is it possible that with coaching, maturity, reps, film study, better teammates, accountability, etc that he could make plays like this more often? Of course not.

    I think in order for him to become legitimately productive he needs to basically limit himself to spot up 3s and transition opportunities.

    Of course, because he will never improve his footwork, touch or decision-making. He is already 20, after all. No way that he becomes more efficient in other offensive areas at this point.

    Frankly, I don’t think anybody coaching him or the FO gives a fuck any more about where he was drafted or what his role was in college, and I would guess that Knox doesn’t either. If you’re convinced that he an Andrew Wiggins-level head case, I guess there’s no talking you out of it. But everything he says seems to indicate that he knows he needs to improve across the board, and he clearly showed signs of better court vision and decision-making in summer league, which is all we have to go on right now.

    And all signs right now seem to be pointed at the coaches and FO not coddling him with tons of undeserved minutes while losses pile up. If he’s not held accountable, then I agree that it is less likely that he will improve as a passer or will score more efficiently and play better D. But to put him in a box based on his play last year or before is counterproductive. Force him to get better and develop a well-rounded game, and if he doesn’t, simply cut him loose or trade him.

  11. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    The whole thing with Epstein seems to revolve around people thinking that rich and powerful people had the ability to orchestrate a murder in prison.

    Powerful men are certainly able to orchestrate murders in general population, but in a federal holding cell? Terribly unlikely. The conspiracy would have to be quite deep to get people to look the other way on an assassination.

    I don’t have enough tinfoil coverage to believe that he was murdered. I just want an answer as to how the conditions became so accommodating for a successful suicide, and then, how he knew to capitalize on those conditions with such a narrow window for execution.

  12. Z-man

    Portis seems like a guy that you like to root for when he’s on your team, but hate when he’s on the other team…kind of like a Kelly Olynyk, Tyler Hansbrough, Marcus Smart, etc. My guess is that Mirotic was an asshole and even though Portis shouldn’t have punched him, he was probably on the right side of the argument.

  13. Z-man

    I think it’s really hard to keep someone from killing himself without either restraining him or watching him 24/7.

  14. Hubert

    Occam’s razor seems to indicate he created those conditions for himself. I don’t think it’s terribly hard for a man worth $600mm to discreetly pay off a few prison workers.

  15. Brian Cronin Post author

    Portis seems like a guy that you like to root for when he’s on your team, but hate when he’s on the other team…kind of like a Kelly Olynyk, Tyler Hansbrough, Marcus Smart, etc. My guess is that Mirotic was an asshole and even though Portis shouldn’t have punched him, he was probably on the right side of the argument.

    Yeah, notice how none of the teammates defended Mirotic? Although, to be fair, they didn’t seem to be fans of Portis, either, but in that argument, the rest of the team seemed to be on Portis’ side, which is a stunning turn of events when the guy they’re siding with punched a teammate so hard that the guy missed the start of the season!

  16. Bruno Almeida

    Well, that Bulls team was also very young and kind of a dumpster fire, it was around the time Butler was traded and the most veteran guys were like Justin Holiday and Robin Lopez, I wouldn’t read much into it either way. This is pretty much the same roster that had that debacle / “crisis” with Jim Boylen for his training methods, which as crazy as they were, was very poorly handled by all sides involved.

  17. geo

    so if you’re the lakers trying to replace boogie, do you choose:
    1). howard
    2). noah
    3). gortat
    4). spreights

    i think i’d go with gortat…

  18. Brian Cronin Post author

    I think it’s hard to pass up Howard at the minimum when you’re looking to add a traditional center.

  19. Bruno Almeida

    I’d just go with Howard, he still had good numbers when he did play in the last two seasons. You hope Lebron controls his antics and lights a bit of a fire under him, and if it doesn’t work you just cut him like the Rockets did with Melo. Those other guys are all definitely worse than Howard if he can play.

  20. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    Can Howard get off the ground these days? His few highlights from last year make him look like a totally different player.

  21. swiftandabundant

    Howard.

    Then you sign Melo, get Bosh/Wade to come out of retirement and then you swing for the CP3 trade. Then AD looks around and thinks “wait, am I living in my junior high fantasy world?” Then they implode, AD demands a trade and The Lakers suck for the next decade.

  22. vincoug

    Miller — not to be confused with the sharpshooting former NBA champ with the Heat

    Wait, really? I 100% thought that this was former player and worst Rookie of the Year in NBA history Mike Miller. I’m legit shocked.

    @5

    NBA.com and Basketball-reference.com’s Play Index only allow you to search and filter by G, F, and C. But, if you go to the advanced stats page for this season on basketball-reference they do list by specific position and you can export it into excel and filter that way. If you do that, Knox’s AST% of 6 is ranked 63 among SF and, bizarrely, 79 among PF (I would’ve thought that would be the other way around). There are 21 more PF than SF listed so that must be why he’s so much lower as a PF.

    For a PF, the average AST% is 8.8 and the median is 8.

    For a SF, the average AST% is 9.3 and the median is also 8.

  23. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    The way I feel about James Dolan is that if the Knicks were to win a championship under his ownership (lol), I would consider it bittersweet since I’d have to watch him celebrate it. I imagine if I were a Lakers fan, I would have a milder case of that with Dwight. One, because of his time on the Lakers, and two, because he is one of the least likable players in the NBA.

  24. geo

    He’s more goofy than anything else.

    that’s kind of what i thought too, until it came out he was threatening some transgender person for revealing a relationship they had…i got to be honest, it was a little bit funny that he so happened to have some glute issue right about the same time…

    yes, stretching is a key ingredient for most activities in life…

  25. DRed

    Dwight was still a perfectly serviceable NBA center 2 years ago. Noah and Gortat were both better than Dwight last year but I don’t think Dwight was ever healthy. You’d think the Lakers could find a rotation big in the G league or in Europe or something.

  26. Bruno Almeida

    I don’t care much about Howard either, he doesn’t seem like a bad person, just a immature guy who’s become a millionaire superstar way too early. He had no reason to try to come back to play games for a Wizards team that was going nowhere, so maybe he could be healthy, I have no idea.

  27. Donnie Walsh

    I have a mid-August question for the knickerbloggers:

    My favorite Knick of all time was Marcus Camby. Despite being one of the best defenders and best rebounders in the league for many years, both with the knicks and without them, he never made an all star team. Is there a consensus on who, statistically, the best player to never make an all star team is, and would Camby likely be at the top of that list? (Not sure why I’m thinking about this right now, except I started thinking of all the otherwise forgettable players that managed to trick their way into an all star selection:)

  28. JK47

    I did some touring many years ago that was kind of a large operation, there were like 20 people in the traveling party. It was a super fun group of people for the most part, except for one guy, who happened to be the tour manager.

    This guy wasn’t really a bad person, but he was just a VIBE KILLER. He just had the lamest sense of humor, he had a terrible temper and would get super flustered and upset at the least little thing that would go wrong, he’d freak out on you if you were five minutes late for something, he would be super condescending and assholish to all the people at the venues… Nobody wanted to sit next to him on a flight, nobody wanted to eat dinner with him, people would just sort of slink away when he’d come around. Everybody talked shit about him and dreamed of the day when he wouldn’t be tour manager. I imagine this is what Dwight is like.

    The lame humor was the worst part of all of it. This was a group of super funny and witty people and he would try to keep up by doing things such as his Austin Powers impersonation. HILARIOUS. Comedy gold every time.

  29. DRed

    It depends on how you value players but running a few b-ref querries Camby is one of the best players to never make an all star team

  30. Donnie Walsh

    Thanks, Alsep. Obviously, Arvydas Sabonis is the best player to never make an all star team. He’s one of the best basketball players ever and it’s one of the few things NOT on his basketball resume. But, of course, he came to America in his 30s, and though he was still completely awesome, I can see how he wasn’t rubber-stamped for his past successes like most nba all stars are.

    But, subjectively, I’d take Camby over Brent Barry and Mike Bibby any time!

  31. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    The lame humor was the worst part of all of it. This was a group of super funny and witty people and he would try to keep up by doing things such as his Austin Powers impersonation. HILARIOUS. Comedy gold every time.

    I remember a particular tour, one of the longer ones I’d been on, with a hired-gun (and totally untalented) bassist who reminded me of Steve Carell’s character in Anchorman. Just totally empty but for his simmering desire to get YouTube famous. (He later went on to do unboxing videos and a 30th percentile cover of “A Whole New World” {a song that needs no covering, ever, for any reason} while making awkward eye contact with the webcam.) Let me tell y’all, it’s better to be around a total bore than a guy who thinks he’s performing stand-up all of the fucking time, especially when you’re trapped on the road with that person. I cannot fucking imagine what it’s like being on the road with Dwight Howard for eight straight months. Buses, planes, practice, locker room, games, tape sessions — these guys need to be tolerable at minimum. Dwight reminds me of an unfunny Michael Scott. This is not a compliment.

    One of my past bands “hired” a friend to be our “drum tech” for a long studio session, i.e. we borrowed his amazing custom Pork Pie kit and he needed to be there to make sure it didn’t get fucked up. He was basically the guy you mentioned in your post, constantly making jokes that no one would laugh at. For three days he went hard after every low-hanging fruit, and after the first 20 minutes, the laughter stopped right quick. Once we got into the flow of things, the appetite for “humor” was totally gone. Eventually the engineer looked at me and said, “There are too many people in the studio right now.” Everyone else turned and looked at the guy, who threw his hands up in the air and was like, “Okay, I’ll go for a walk.” He shut the fuck up for the rest of the session. I don’t think Howard is capable of that.

  32. Farfa

    Cough

    Mike Conley

    Cough

    Also, that list is just in alphabetical order. I think no one’s saying that Brent Barry was a better player than Lamar Odom :)

  33. Z-man

    Agree about Sabonis. Conley is a multiple all-star level player in a conference with 3-4 all-time great and other extremely good PGs. (Westbrook is overrated but will be a sure first-ballot HOFer.) Most of the rest, including Camby, are fringe all-star types, kind of random who gets on (Starks and Lee are two who made it but are similar to the guys on this list) and who doesn’t.

  34. Z-man

    I guess the knock on Conley is that he got hurt a lot and wasn’t great in any single category….never averaged 7 assists or more…never averaged over 20.5 points per game…

  35. Donnie Walsh

    I guess the knock on Conley is that he got hurt a lot and wasn’t great in any single category….

    Yeah, I’m looking for the statistician view. Camby led the lead in DBPM 5 times after he turned 30. Led the league in TRB% 4 times and BLK% 3 times. Conley has had a sold career, but Camby was dominant like Mutombo (they have very similar stats), but never got the accolades (Mutombo got 8 all star nods, Camby 0).

  36. Brian Cronin Post author

    Starks and Lee are two who made it but are similar to the guys on this list

    I thought for a second you were saying that Courtney Lee made an All-Star Game once. I was thinking, “Dang, maybe we should have gotten a first for him if he was an All-Star!”

  37. Nick C.

    Thank you Knickerblogger for letting me know that I am not the only person on Earth who finds Austin Powers and its ilk to be terribly unfunny.
    As for the list Andre Miller and Rod Strickland both had pretty accomplished careers. Sabonis, as noted, came too late. Drazen Petrovic left us too soon. Derek Harper may be the best two way player on that list. There are a lot of 2nd forwards /fourth best guys on the list.

  38. Z-man

    Nice to see how the Mets are dealing with injuries to Cano and McNeil. Rosario has stepped up big time, Conforto, Davis, Ramos and Alonso are all raking. Lagares is waking up and Panik was a great under-the-radar acquisition. It’s a fun, scrappy team to root for…great chemistry and solid but not spectacular in all areas and 5 starters that are all front-of-rotation caliber guys.

    One thing I like about them is that they seem to grind out good at-bats vs. tough pitching. Not a bunch of free swingers.

  39. alsep73

    Oof, my bad for not noticing that the list was alphabetical. Brent Barry being first did puzzle me. Usually, I’m the one lecturing other people for not reading the intros to my lists.

  40. vincoug

    Haven’t done a deep dive into the stats but my gut feeling is that Derek Harper is the best player on that list.

    Just saw this on reddit. Over the last 19 years, the Seattle SuperSonics have won more playoff games, 8, than the Knicks, 7. Seattle hasn’t had a basketball team since the 2007-08 season.

  41. alsep73

    The young Sabonis was, by all accounts, Jokic with great defense. (And/or Walton with healthy feet.)

  42. JK47

    The Mets have a really good core of hitters who are cheap for a while. Alonso, Conforto, Rosario, Davis, McNeil plus Nimmo and Dom Smith. Plus they have a perfectly decent offensive catcher in Ramos. Even without the dead salary bunch of Cespedes, Cano and Lowrie contributing anything they can run a real good offense out there with just that cheap young core.

    Rosario’s strong play is super encouraging, he looks like a solid 3-4 WAR player with room to grow as he’s still only 23. He was starting to look like a real disappointment this year but he has played brilliantly in this stretch.

  43. TheClashFan

    @52
    Nimmo and Lowrie are back playing in rehab again, so it’ll be interesting to see if either or both can get back and help with the stretch run.

    I hope to never see Cespedes and Cano on the field as Mets again, but they’ll both be back next year. Well, Cano will. Who knows about Cespedes.

  44. Stratomatic: Sometimes referred to as Satan

    On the latest edition of “The Bank Shot” Knicks podcast with John Schmeelk, Spencer Pearlman breaks down how Frank Ntilikina has been playing for the French National Team and they discuss the Knicks roster. Well worth listening to.

    John Schmeelk
    @Schmeelk

  45. Owen

    Apparently he looks different and better. I will believe it when I see it in the NBA.

    The problem with Frank will always be that he doesn’t have any quick twitch burst. Doesn’t seem to hurt him on defense but it renders him completely useless on offense.

    I like what he says about his defense and how much stronger he looks now. Apparently not getting muscled by anyone.

    Man, it’s August isn’t it….

  46. JK47

    ITBSOHL = In The Best Shape Of His Life

    That’s a hoary old sports cliche. I’m glad Frank has extra muscle. Does the muscle make him able to make a layup, or does it make him able to dribble? Because if not he’s still a player who lacks even the most fundamental offensive skills and is therefore unplayable.

    For all of his supposed good play for France he still had wretched offensive numbers against crummy opposition.

    Squint harder, I guess.

  47. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    You know how I’m always beating the drum about how “confidence” is just a coaching platitude by the time you get to the NBA level? Frank has no confidence, and it’s because he’s bad at attacking defenses. And shooting. And rebounding.

  48. Scorpio Dragon

    Sabonis got hurt before he got drafted in 86 and was still rehabbing in 88 because he had to have another surgery to his achilles. That timeframe is putting him up against Magic and Jordan for MVPs . I guess if Portland was dominant during that time I could see it, but I don’t know if he would be able to pull it away from those guys.

    Maybe the Barkley/Olajuwon/Robinson years? But he was slowing down a lot then, we’d have to handwave the fact that the Soviet Union completely overused him before he recovered from the other injuries. Would he have turned down his national team? Would he even have had the option to turn them down or would they have denied him clearance?

    Arvydas is a serious case of what if?

  49. Scorpio Dragon

    I’ve moved on from Frank as an offensive anything. He moves the ball but isn’t remotely a threat with it. He defends well and there’s a place for that (re: Tony Allen) but he’d have to improve dramatically at that end to be in Tony’s league much less ballpark defensively. If he can show me that he’s making strides there, I’ll give him a pass. He won’t be useful here in NY, but he’ll have a place somewhere that has transcendent offensive weapons in need of defensive irritant.

  50. JK47

    His defense isn’t worth playing 4-on-5 on offense. If he plays another 1000 minutes in the NBA I’ll be shocked.

  51. alsep73

    So who’s on the all-What If? team, if we’re just focusing on guys whose careers were plagued by injury? Walton gets the start at center over Sabonis, right? Does Bird with a healthy back get consideration, or does the fact that he was already an inner circle Hall of Famer mean a forward spot should go to somebody like Bernard King?

  52. Stratomatic: Sometimes referred to as Satan

    The problem with Frank will always be that he doesn’t have any quick twitch burst. Doesn’t seem to hurt him on defense but it renders him completely useless on offense.

    If you listened to the podcast you would have heard the guest say Franks’s first step is among the many things that look a lot better this year.

  53. d-mar

    Frank has no confidence, and it’s because he’s bad at attacking defenses. And shooting. And rebounding.

    But other than that, he has the makings of a fine NBA player

  54. Stratomatic: Sometimes referred to as Satan

    His defense isn’t worth playing 4-on-5 on offense. If he plays another 1000 minutes in the NBA I’ll be shocked.

    I know, it’s an accident that for two years the Knicks were better with him on the court than off and now France has been better in these games with him on the court than off the court (+36).

    Granted, that’s not saying much because the alternatives weren’t any good either on the Knicks. But he’s s not just a good defender. He’s an “impact” defender that can pass and make plays. He’s so good at making the right play on defense, he’s messing up the other team’s offense. Even his NBA level French teammates and foreign opponents are saying that.

    He doesn’t have to add much on offense. He needs a consistent 3 pointer. After that the only issue is creating the right lineups (which admittedly may be outside the range of this Knicks team/coach/management but well within the range of people that know what they are doing and that recognize his potential value with patience).

  55. ptmilo

    Does Bird with a healthy back get consideration, or does the fact that he was already an inner circle Hall of Famer mean a forward spot should go to somebody like Bernard King?

    i think grant hill is the 3. when injuries turn you into rudy gay from scottie pippen at 25, that’s your huckleberry.

    other what ifs:
    penny
    roy
    oden
    rose
    bynum
    mcgrady
    yao
    ron harper
    sampson

  56. JK47

    I understand the desire to have good defensive players on the Knicks but the Frank trutherism is just insane. You can’t play in this league with a .400 eFG%, period. There is no amount of defense that compensates for that. Dude could add 50 points of eFG% and still be godawful.

    There’s nothing more to say about it. I don’t care if he locked down Tunisia’s point guard. Just stop already.

  57. Scorpio Dragon

    All-time What If team would have to lock down criteria.

    I’d say Bird wouldn’t be on it. He had a HOF career and is widely considered 10 player all-time already.
    Someone like King would get consideration for it. Being robbed of the chance to see King and Ewing together is especially burning.

    Walton should be the starter at C. Hell, I’d like to see what Ewing would have been like with good knees.

    Len Bias has to be Starting SF though with Grant Hill as backup
    Not sure about the PFs though. That’s a harder one for me to come up with. Though I guess I could slide Sampson or Walton down to that spot.

    My preliminary list
    C – Walton, Sabonis, Ralph Sampson?
    PF –
    SF – Bias, Hill, King
    SG – McGrady(I legitimately think he had a shot at 2nd best SG of all time), Brandon Roy
    PG – Penny Hardaway,

  58. Donnie Walsh

    Sabonis and Bird aren’t what-ifs. They are, despite their injuries, both on the short list of greatest basketball players to ever play.

    Ralph Sampson is a big what-if. He was a few years ahead of his time and a few injuries short of becoming truly dominant.

    Brandon Roy is a sad case of losing to injury, but he wasn’t on track to be an all time great I don’t think.

  59. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    Frank could be hidden on offense if you had a 99th percentile scorer like Harden or Curry. But that’s like building one of those enormous, tall garages to store the speedboat you’ll never be able to afford.

  60. nicos

    While Ewing doesn’t really qualify as a “what if?” I think he’d have had a shot to be equal to or better than Hakeem and Robinson if his knees hadn’t given him problems his entire career- he had surgeries to clean out cartilage after each of his first two seasons and certainly played through pain for a good chunk of his career. Go watch some Georgetown videos- he was an incredible athlete but within three or four years in the NBA he didn’t have nearly the same speed or lift.

  61. Z-man

    So long as he is held accountable, I am all for giving Frank a legitimate shot of being in the rotation. Starting with seeing how he does in FIBA when the real games start.

    I tend to be less pessimistic about whether Frank can be “hidden” if he becomes a top-notch defensive guard/wing. I know his offensive numbers were atrocious the last 2 years, but I agree with Strat (and always have on this point) that if he can post 36% on reasonably high volume (say 5 attempts per 36) and only drive opportunistically then he can be a very valuable rotation piece. His shot doesn’t look broken. He was just miscast as a PG from the get-go and would fail in that role no matter how many reps he gets.

    You don’t need Harden or Curry to make that work, just a reasonably good offensive lineup. Put him out there with Mitch, a PG and 2 scorers (out of Trier/Ellington/DSjr/maybe Iggy) and let him disrupt the high PnR. See if he can learn to rebound a bit.

  62. Z-man

    @72, disagree with that one. Walton was a magnificent player when he was healthy with Portland. Kinda like Bill Russell, a brilliant team leader whose value went way beyond stats. Would have been a great battle, though!

  63. E

    Frank already is a top-notch defensive guard/wing. And his ceiling is 1st team all-defense and best wing/point defender in the association. Yes, his offense is so shitty that he’ll probably never be playable enough to play enough to actually be voted 1st team all-defense. Trading him at this low ebb at this age would still be sub-Isiah-caliber GMing, a quintessentially textbook solution in search of a problem.

  64. thenoblefacehumper

    If you listened to the podcast you would have heard the guest say Franks’s first step is among the many things that look a lot better this year.

    Oh, well, that settles it then!

  65. thenoblefacehumper

    He doesn’t have to add much on offense.

    Is any more evidence needed that the Frankophiles are not living in reality?

  66. Dink

    I was convinced that Frank’s first step was much improved when he drove on known defensive specialist Omar Abada and *almost* scored a layup.

  67. JK47

    We’ve had this conversation already. You could turn Frank into Steve Kerr as a three point shooter and he’d still have a shitty TS% because he can’t get layups or draw fouls or do anything else on offense.

    Whatever, he’ll get s few hundred more minutes in the NBA then you can watch him “move the ball” for Limoges on YouTube and dream about what could have been.

  68. E

    Right, but he offsets the shitty TS% with elite-level defense.

    He’s shitty on offense and great on defense. That’s worse than being shitty on defense and great on offense, but still.

    If he was shitty on offense and just mediocre or average on defense, we wouldn’t be having the debate/conversation. And if the same front office that handed Ron Baker 2/9 decides not to exercise the 4th year option … well, that pretty much tells you all you need to know.

    What problem exactly does trading him solve? Freeing up minutes for Elfrid Payton? I think not. Puffing up this front office by making the previous one look worse on this one than it really was? I really, really think not.

  69. Donnie Walsh

    While Ewing doesn’t really qualify as a “what if?” I think he’d have had a shot to be equal to or better than Hakeem and Robinson if his knees hadn’t given him problems his entire career- he had surgeries to clean out cartilage after each of his first two seasons and certainly played through pain for a good chunk of his career. Go watch some Georgetown videos- he was an incredible athlete but within three or four years in the NBA he didn’t have nearly the same speed or lift.

    I don’t think of “what if” scenarios that involve congenital health problems are really what ifs. Tall athletes with chronic knee issues are pre-programmed to be what they are. I think “what if”s should be about freak injuries/bad decisions. Ewing wasn’t as good as Olajuwon because he wasn’t physically as good as Olajuwon. But a player like Sampson, who had an impact injury to his knee and then rushed his rehab, derailing his career before his prime, is a real what if. Same with Len Bias, Drazen Petrovich, etc.

    For Sabonis, the only what if is how much better than Robinson, Ewing, Daugherty, etc he would have been had he come and played against them in his prime. We already know he would have been an all time great, because he already is an all time great, just not in the NBA.

  70. Z-man

    We’ve had this conversation already. You could turn Frank into Steve Kerr as a three point shooter and he’d still have a shitty TS% because he can’t get layups or draw fouls or do anything else on offense.

    I hate being in the position of defending Frank after all the battles I’ve had with the KB (lame)braintrust that were enthusiastic about the pick. But come on, JK. You must agree that if he shoots well from 3, a lot of other good stuff can happen for him and for others. He just turned 21 less than a month ago. He should have been viewed as a 3-and-D draft-n-stash project from the start and should just be getting a shot at playing in the NBA right now.

    I’m not worried about his offense beyond 3-pt shooting. I’m actually far more worried that his defense is vastly overrated and that he’s a turrible, turrible rebounder for a wing. Look at this comparison. Frank’s pathetic rebounding sets him apart from these physically similar players.

  71. bockadoo

    If you were playing a pick up game and the other team had a guy who was killing you, and you had a guy who could stop or marginally disrupt that guy, and on offense hardly took any shots -only when he was wide open and hit a decent % of them, and passed/moved the ball to the open guys on his team… wouldn’t you want to play with that guy? I just don’t understand the hate for Frank. He has a place on a winning team.

  72. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    If you were playing a pick up game

    Pick up game that The Honorable Cock Jowles is in =/= the damn NBA

  73. Early Bird

    Even if Frank is phenomenal at defense, he’s a wing. In today’s NBA, wing defense has limited value. Stopping the pick and roll comes first.
    As soon as it became clear Frank couldn’t play pg, his defensive value plummeted. Most modern 2’s park on the perimeter and shoot threes. Frank standing next to them does not add significant value.

    If RJ could play pg on offense, Frank might have some value defending pgs.

  74. Totes McGoats as Totes McGoats

    So..I was thinking about the rotation- particularly the wings- and how it could play out. Firstly, Fiz better get great at managing a 10 man regular rotation. Secondly, I’m thinkin I’d rather see either Knox/Trier on the wing or Morris/ Barrett. We can’t start Knox and Barrett with DSJ, Randle, and MitchRob. Just not enough shooting. Lastly, as much as I’d hate to see it..Dot is probably the odd man out- unless he becomes a consistent enough shooter to keep Ellington on the bench. Right now, Ellington has the one bonafide skill that no one else has on the roster except maybe Morris, and that’s gonna keep him in the rotation. Dot will definitely get burn before Iggy, but I still see him at #11 at best. I can picture a rotation where all of the PF’s we signed get decent minutes- and they probably should. What say youse all?

  75. Early Bird

    @88, I think that’s right. Although I do think Dotson would fit better due to Trier’s ball dominance not fitting well with RJ, DSJr., and Randle also needing the ball. Hopefully he can nail 3’s off the ball.

  76. thenamestsam

    For all the agonizing about Frank I just have the feeling he’s going to be so marginalized this year it’s hardly going to matter. Even the Frank believers I think would concede that he’s still a massive work in progress, and that he’s still going to be at best a non-entity and at worst a huge liability on offense in the immediate future. If he ever has a chance he needs to be in a situation where an org gives him a lot of leash to keep developing on offense because they believe in the defense and the non-box score impact and with the rotation being incredibly overcrowded I just can’t see how it happens for him this year.

    Even in a total developmental year and on a team with a lot of minutes to go around he was getting squeezed out last season by Fiz. I just don’t think the org. believes in him enough to even give him the chance to ever prove the believers right.

  77. Ben R

    Frank has a lot of problems but finishing at the rim isn’t really one of them. He has shot 57.7% from 0-3 feet so far in his career. That is better than Walker, Lowry, Lilliard, Russell, Westbrook, Conley, and Paul, just to name a few, shot from 0-3 feet over their first two seasons. I am not making any claims about Frank’s potential and there are many many things to criticize but finishing at the rim isn’t really one of them. Let’s at least be honest about what he sucks at.

  78. swiftandabundant

    I don’t completely agree that Fiz was squeezing Frank out of the rotation. He was yanked as a starter and did have some doghouse days but then he got hurt for a huge chunk of the season. I honestly believe if he doesn’t get hurt after the KP trade when Hardaway, Burke and Lee were gone, we would have seen a lot more Frank but he was hurt. He came back and then got hurt again.

  79. Ben R

    Our rotation is pretty crunched. Unfortunately for Frank, the only place I could see him getting any real playing time is if he beats out Smith Jr. but I doubt he has the PG skills to do that.

    Our wings are crowded. Morris and Ellington will probably be in the rotation at the 2 and 3 and Barrett will almost surely see some playing time so that leaves Trier or Knox fighting for that last spot in the rotation at the wing. Dotson and Iggy would have to be incredible in training camp to begin the season in the rotation unless someone gets hurt. For Frank to play at the wing he’d have to beat out Dotson, Iggy, Knox, and Trier which seems unlikely.

    As for big men I see Randle and Mitch starting and then Portis and Gibson playing most of the backup minutes at the 4 and 5 with maybe a little of Morris or possibly Knox getting occasional spot minutes.

  80. thenamestsam

    I don’t completely agree that Fiz was squeezing Frank out of the rotation. He was yanked as a starter and did have some doghouse days but then he got hurt for a huge chunk of the season. I honestly believe if he doesn’t get hurt after the KP trade when Hardaway, Burke and Lee were gone, we would have seen a lot more Frank but he was hurt. He came back and then got hurt again.

    I’m not saying Fiz hates him or anything but my count before the (basically) season ending injury he had 4 DNPs, 3 inactives (and one game with <1M played; all injury I think) and 17 other games where he played < 20 minutes (more than half of those were <15) in 48 team games. Once he was no longer starting he was pretty immediately relegated to a fairly fringey role in the rotation is my only point. He almost surely would have played more post-KP as you say. All I'm saying is that even with much easier to crack rotation last year Frank was finding himself on the edge at best after 40 games. I just don't think you can write up a 10 or 11 man rotation that has Frank in it that doesn't leave out a bunch of guys who I think the org sees as significantly ahead of him (i.e. guys just signed to 8 figure annual deals).

    Barrett, Knox, Morris, Payton, Portis, Randle and Robinson are all 100% rotation locks ahead of Frank in the pecking order. That's 7. I'm very confident Taj and Ellington will be too, at least to start the year. That's 9. So the bottom line to me is to earn any kind of real rotation role to start the year Frank needs to win the backup PG role ahead of Smith and Trier…but I don't think even his supporters see him as a PG any more. So if one of Trier/Smith Jr. is in that slot then at best Frank is fighting to be the 11th guy, which is very fringe. And he needs to beat Dot, Trier/Smith, Iggy, and, once healthy, Bullock to get those minutes.

  81. alsep73

    I continue to think most of you are discounting Smith when you’re putting together your rotations. I’d say he’s still the favorite to start, unless Payton blows his doors off in camp/preseason. But either way, yes, Frank is on the outside of the rotation looking in.

  82. Early Bird

    @ Alsep 95,

    I am kind of counting on Elfrid Payton blowing Smith’s doors off in preseason and camp. I think DSJr. has more potential, but unless Smith made some strides this offseason Payton can run the offense better than Smith.

  83. Early Bird

    Payton is also at the age where PG’s make a jump, I can see him doing that this year. DSJr still has a few years, being only 22. I think DSJr will have a breakout year in ’20-21 or ’21-22. This last part is complete speculation, but that’s my 2 cents. Even without the jump, I have Payton ahead of DSJr.

  84. 2FOR18, understands math

    Bill Walton is an all time top 5 player if he didn’t get hurt. Picture Jokic playing defense like Ewing with Lebron’s basketball IQ. Just look how good he was in 1986 with Boston when he was washed up and couldn’t move. Name another player on his Portland championship team without looking it up.

  85. 2FOR18, understands math

    Payton isn’t even that good, but our pg play has been so dreadful for so long, many of us are going to fall in love with him as he does unusual Knick pg things like “dribble”, “pentrate”, “pass” and “rebound”.

  86. alsep73

    Yeah, Lucas and Hollins weren’t exactly chumps. (Also, I’ve read Halberstam’s “The Breaks of the Game,” about the season after the Blazers won the title, too many times.)

  87. Knew Your Nicks

    Unfortunately i haven’t seen BWalton playing and I’m not able to compare him with Arvydas Sabonis whom i happen to watch him here and there during his euro prime.
    Arvydas was a Freak of Nature and among the 2 best players- till this very moment-coming from Europe.
    He and Drazen were Game Dominators not just Game Changers.
    If you were playing against their team you were crossing your fingers for them to get quick fouls or doin Voodoo to miss playing in the game.
    Bill Walton once called Sabonis ‘a 7ft3 Larry Bird’ as i just read in wiki !

  88. bockadoo

    @98. Johnny Davis,Lionel Hollies, Bobby Gross, Lucas and Walton was (or were?) the starting 5. I think they are underrated and one of the 5 best teams ever. They smashed a loaded Sixers team. Beautiful team to watch. They were even better the next year before Walton got hurt. Loss of a healthy Walton the biggest loss of seeing career greatness in history of the league imho.

  89. dtrickey

    oh…about a week and a half before the championships start…even with all the changes to their roster, still feel like the US should win…maybe…

    USA still favourites, but I think the gap is significantly closer leading in to the WC. Really keen for the USA v Aus exhibition games here in Melbourne tonight and Saturday. Managed to get a ticket for the Saturday game, but that was purchased at the time the projected team had a bit more star power.

  90. The Glass Half Rebuilt

    There’s zero chance Frank is out of the rotation once training camp rolls around. None of our guards will be able to score against him in practice. You gotta remember that whatever you think of Frank Ntilikina’s offensive game, he was worse last season than he will be coming into camp. If he can stand still and hit jumpers at a 32% rate while bringing the clamps (provided he stays healthy this year), you’re talking about a guy that you have to give 25 minutes a night. I’d guess he’s our starting 2 guard on opening night.

  91. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    You gotta remember that whatever you think of Frank Ntilikina’s offensive game, he was worse last season than he will be coming into camp.

    his offense got worse year over year

  92. Early Bird

    If he can stand still and hit jumpers at a 32% rate while bringing the clamps (provided he stays healthy this year), you’re talking about a guy that you have to give 25 minutes a night.

    The Good News: Frank can score at a 32% rate
    The Bad News: Only from 2p range

    The Worse News: In 2 seasons Frank has not managed to surpass the paltry bar of 32% from 3. Frank’s total fg% barely surpassed it last year at .337.

    Defense or not, I don’t see how Frank is playable on offense.

  93. JK47

    You guys ever stop and consider that maybe you’re overestimating Frank’s defensive prowess juuuuust a little bit? He sounds like Gary Payton, Scottie Pippen and Bill Russell combined according to some of the assessments here. Frank just demolishes opposing defenses, he wrecks every play and turns every opponent into someone who sucks even worse than Frank Ntilikina on offense according to some of you guys.

    I mean he’s clearly a pretty nice defender but he’d have to be a destroyer of worlds on defense to make himself a net positive player.

  94. The Glass Half Rebuilt

    What I’m saying is that the same Frank Ntilikina who was horrible offensively last year was a starter for like the first 10 games across two different starting fives. He started in the Burke, TH2, Ntilikina, Thomas, Kanter starring five (wow, did anybody really doubt we were the worst team in basketball last year?) and then he started in the Ntilikina/Hardaway Jr/I don’t remember/Vonleh/Robinson starting five. Fizdale liked what Frank brought out of the gate and I don’t see how Frank brings anything different this year. Maybe Marcus Morris’ presence on the team pushes Frank to the bench, but there’s no way he starts the season out of the rotation. His health, last season, was really what hurt his playing time more than anything else. I won’t accept that his playing time got cut because he sucked when Kevin Knox led the team in FGA.

  95. Name is Bron - James Bron

    NYK should pick up Frank’s 4th year option. Guy’s a top defender. It’s remarkable the Frank haters won’t even acknowledge that. So him being a + player on ever team he’s ever played on is a fluke? His top Synergy rating as PnR defender his first year is a flawed stat? And the tape of his on ball defense against Harden, “the guy that got away” (Donovan Mitchell) and other stars doesn’t exist? And those European opponents talking about his strong defense are just being kind?

    On offense, he’s an above average passer for a wing. His 2FG% was 50% in the last 5 FIBA games. His 3FG% continues to be atrocious but it’s remarkable that Frank haters believe it won’t improve. There’s nothing terribly wrong with his motion and he’s had fairly long stretches where he’s shot well from the arc.

    The key is for him to guard the opposing 1 guard which he could do playing off the ball or as the backup 1. We won’t be able to watch KP/Mitch/Frank together on defense but Frank and Mitch guarding 1-5 PnR is still there.

    But of course the FO goes out and signs Wayne and Reggie when we have Frank, Zo, Dot, and RJ. How dumb is that? Payton, Randle, and Morris should have been the 3 guys we signed. I just noticed Kornet signed a 2-year deal at 2.25m/yr. We could have had Vonleh and Luke for total of 4m/yr AND bird rights on them. They’re both young and improving and were plus players last season. How dumb is that?

    I’m reading articles on how the Knicks have done a good job this summer. Balderdash. They get a “C” grade even if they couldn’t have rented cap space.

  96. Z-man

    Bron, while I sort of agree with some of the points you make, I disagree with the big picture and with the hyperbolic description of his prowess as a defender. He is a very good point of attack defender, but defense is more nuanced than that. He’s a god-awful defensive rebounder, especially for his size. He regressed in his second season on both ends…did opposing teams figure him out?

    The biggest problem is that he was a second-round flyer that was stupidly drafted at #9 and has a $5 mill per price tag. He should have been banished to the G-League from day one until he developed, but no, let’s throw him out there and destroy any confidence he might have developed with reps against players he could handle. He wasn’t just bad. He was the worst offensive player in the league. HE DID NOT BELONG ON AN NBA FLOOR.

    But here we are in year 3, and you want to commit to his future with the team based on “he’ll start hitting 3’s any day now and he shuts down Harden and Mitchell.” Seriously?

    What’s the point of picking u his option? Will he willing to re-up for the minimum? Is he even worth the minimum? Can’t a long, disruptive wing who is a huge detriment on offense be had for near the minimum via other means?

    As I said, Ntilikina was nowhere near ready for the NBA when he was drafted. Had he been drafted as a 2nd round draft-n-stash project, sure, keep him around until he develops. But unless he makes an impact in FIBA (and not some bs spouted by teammates or opponents) it’s time to move on.

  97. Z-man

    And if Ellington and Bullock get in the way of Frank’s development, tough shit. Send him to the G-League where he belongs.

  98. KnickfaninNJ

    his offense got worse year over year

    When I read this and think about it, I think it can only be because of some issues that affected his play. Otherwise, players his age don’t get worse from one year to the next. Maybe they don’t figure things out and don’t get much better, but they don’t get worse. In this case I suspect all the injuries affected him and maybe his role changed a little too.

  99. Grocer

    You guys ever stop and consider that maybe you’re overestimating Frank’s defensive prowess juuuuust a little bit?

    Especially since everybody switches now. Frank gets switched off his preferred man then spends the play way out on the elbow far from the action. That’s mostly what he did last year on defense. Maybe Fiz can use him as a zone specialist to get around it?

    Don’t pick up the option.

  100. thenamestsam

    My sincere suggestion if you think Frank is going to get 25 minutes a night is to write up a list of the rotation you expect and how many minutes each guy is going to get. I’d love to see how you’re carving out that much time for him with all the vets and higher-rated prospects on this roster. There’s only 240 minutes a night.

  101. Name is Bron - James Bron

    But here we are in year 3, and you want to commit to his future with the team based on “he’ll start hitting 3’s any day now and he shuts down Harden and Mitchell.” Seriously?

    Yes very serious. I believe he is an elite defender. He’s able to navigate through screens on the PnR. That’s important because you don’t want Mitch to have to switch on to the opposing 1 guard if he doesn’t have to. Mitch is able to guard the player on the perimeter but you’ve just taken the greatest shot blocker in NBA history away from the rim. You want to avoid that.

    If Frank is able to shoot about 35% from 3, that would be fine because of his impact on defense. If he ends up at 37%+ you’re very happy. BTW do you know who shot 29% from 3 his first two seasons at the age of 22-24? Draymond Green. And Bruce Bowen shot around 30% his first 2 seasons at an advanced age.

    I don’t know where he’ll end up in terms of 3FG% – nor does anyone else. The issue is opportunity cost here. How are you gonna better spend that money? We’re not a contender. We’ve got a lot of cap. If Frank continues to stink on offense, the cost is minimal (his 4th year). If Frank improves, the benefit is greater. benefit > cost…that’s factorial

  102. alsep73

    Kermit Washington

    Kermit came to Portland two seasons later, as part of the transaction where Walton signed with the Clippers.

  103. Z-man

    I’m ambivalent on picking up Frank’s option because at his age there is still lots of potential upside, but he was so terrible on offense I could see us easily replacing him with a G-Leaguer at any given moment. I’ll say again, his poor defensive rebounding for a 6’6″ supposed defensive specialist is a huge red flag. If he can’t lear how to rebound better, he won’t be in the NBA, simple as that. And $6.1 million for that 4th year is not chump change.

  104. JK47

    Frank can’t dribble or attack the rim. So he gets to the line about one time every 36 minutes. Last year he averaged 1.2 FTA/36. If you’ve ever seen him attempt to dribble you know this is not a fluke. He has one of the fugliest, most broken handles I have ever seen.

    That is a massive weakness for a guy who is supposed to be a guard. So play him at the three, right? How’s his rebounding, pretty decent for a three? Nope. His rebounding makes him unplayable at the three. So he’s strictly a two who can only shoot jump shots and shoot them badly, with no rim attacking ability.

  105. 2FOR18, understands math

    The only way Frank plays 25 mins a game is if Strat is right and Frank is now 6 ft 8 and 240 pounds, so he can play at the 3.
    The ‘2’ mins will all go to RJ, Wellington and Dotson.
    Frank has no business playing the ‘1’, unless everyone else gets hurt and their G League team folds.

    – So we can bring politics into threads? Or only if you have the pre-approved correct opinions?

  106. Z-man

    Frank’s competition for minutes:
    DSjr, Payton, Ellington, Trier, Dotson, RJ, Bullock, Kadeem Allen, Knox, Iggy

    I think a fair over/under for Frank’s minutes is 600. I would bet the under, largely because I think there’s a small but significant chance he never plays for the Knicks again. He also gets hurt all the time.

  107. Dink

    So we can bring politics into threads? Or only if you have the pre-approved correct opinions?

    Are you referring to the post #113? The post everyone else here is ignoring and not engaging with?

    You should stick to basketball if you’re interested in having any sort of constructive conversation. But you knew that already.

  108. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    – So we can bring politics into threads? Or only if you have the pre-approved correct opinions?

    shh

    You guys ever stop and consider that maybe you’re overestimating Frank’s defensive prowess juuuuust a little bit? He sounds like Gary Payton, Scottie Pippen and Bill Russell combined according to some of the assessments here. Frank just demolishes opposing defenses, he wrecks every play and turns every opponent into someone who sucks even worse than Frank Ntilikina on offense according to some of you guys.

    I mean he’s clearly a pretty nice defender but he’d have to be a destroyer of worlds on defense to make himself a net positive player.

    We all know Ntilikina is among the worst players in the league on offense. Here are his percentile ranks according to the advanced defensive stats:

    TDPOE 62nd
    DPIPM 72nd
    DRPM 52nd
    DRAPM 95th

    Overall:

    POE 4th
    PIPM 10th
    RPM 47th
    RAPM 75th

    That’s a pretty damn big swing.

  109. Name is Bron - James Bron

    And $6.1 million for that 4th year is not chump change.

    Nah it’s chump change given where we’re at and our cap situation. If nothing else, it prevents the FO from wasting money on another Ellington.

    And if Ellington and Bullock get in the way of Frank’s development, tough shit. Send him to the G-League where he belongs.

    I mean they’re getting in the way of Trier, Dotson, RJ, Braz. They shouldn’t be on the team. The FO panicked after striking out this summer and is all in on wins. Maybe that’s best course to help them keep their jobs but it’s not best for the team. I do agree that Frank should play in the G League rather than sit on the bench. But the whole situation stinks and I hate when people (not you) write about how this has really been solid work by FO this summer.

    his poor defensive rebounding for a 6’6? supposed defensive specialist is a huge red flag.

    I don’t think it’s a huge red flag but it’s very troubling. He just sort of stands in the area but doesn’t show any drive to get the rebound. He’s soft which has manifested itself in other facets which is what is really troublesome. However, he started to be more aggressive in general right before his final injury last season, taking more decisive actions. But that hasn’t appeared in rebounding yet.

    He has one of the fugliest, most broken handles I have ever seen.

    His handle improved judging from the FIBA games I watched. I’m not expecting it to ever be above average but I think he could improve to where it’s not an obvious problem.

    He doesn’t have great burst but on a couple of plays he blew by FIBA opponents. Hard to judge how real that it because of competition. He’ll never be an ISO player but the hope here is that he’s more opportunistic and ready to attack when there’s a slight opening. This ties into his needing to be more aggressive in general.

  110. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    I’m ambivalent on picking up Frank’s option because at his age there is still lots of potential upside, but he was so terrible on offense I could see us easily replacing him with a G-Leaguer at any given moment. I’ll say again, his poor defensive rebounding for a 6’6? supposed defensive specialist is a huge red flag. If he can’t lear how to rebound better, he won’t be in the NBA, simple as that. And $6.1 million for that 4th year is not chump change.

    I agree that Ntilikina sucks today and is likely the worst bust the Knicks have had in ages, but $6.1M on a 22-year-old player is not a lot of money, especially when you’re looking at a 35-win season as an optimistic bet. If you decline the option, he walks for nothing. What’s the point of saving that $6M?

  111. Z-man

    I personally have no major problem with what the FO did in signing a bunch of lunchpail vets to short contracts. I doubt that they will get in the way of Trier, RJ, Dotson or Braz. If anything, they will actually help their development by making them earn minutes rather than being thrown out there, Like Frank and Knox were. Accountability is a good thing for a young player.

    And for the record, I am very optimistic about Trier (right away) and Braz (down the road.) Trier is going to earn a ton of playing time. He might even become a star. The dude can play.

  112. Dink

    I hope the Knicks pick up Frank’s option and give him plenty of minutes. They should be trying to maximize draft capital these next two seasons and playing Frank should help them get higher picks.

  113. Z-man

    @131 if he shows like literally any development in FIBA and preseason, I would agree. But he has to show something, don’t you think? I mean, was it that big a deal that guys like Bender and Hezonja did not have their options picked up?

  114. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    Accountability is a good thing for a young player.

    I want to disagree with this, as a guy playing 2,158 minutes on the league’s worst team should realize that he’s a big reason that the team sucks so badly. And then I remember:

    “Yeah, of course I deserved to make [the All-Rookie team],” Knox said, via Stefan Bondy of The New York Daily News. “But it was definitely motivation. I worked hard this summer. That was kind of a chip on my shoulder for me to work hard this summer. Definitely, it was motivation. I’m going to use it for summer. I’m going to keep using it for next year.”

    https://www.bball-index.com/fizdale-to-blame-for-knoxs-struggles/

    nah son

  115. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    @131 if he shows like literally any development in FIBA and preseason, I would agree. But he has to show something, don’t you think? I mean, was it that big a deal that guys like Bender and Hezonja did not have their options picked up?

    I don’t really care much about FIBA, which is basically a high-level rec league (limited practices, intuitive systems, lots of players who have never played together) and preseason is too short to make a big decision on. Hezonja had played over 5,000 NBA minutes when he got cut loose and PHX, well, I don’t know anything about PHX’s strategy. Didn’t they let McDonough make all the July roster decisions and then fire him a month later?

    I guess I would agree with you if the Knicks had done what we’ve advocated for: stockpiled young players and picks. But right now, I’m thinking that if they cut him, they wouldn’t be grabbing some stud from the NBGL or an UDFA. I think the best thing to do is get him out there, pray for a nominal improvement, and see if there’s a trade market for him come February.

  116. Z-man

    I don’t really care much about FIBA, which is basically a high-level rec league (limited practices, intuitive systems, lots of players who have never played together),

    This is a bit of a superficial take. These guys often know each other and played together before, spend a relatively long time in close proximity to each other, practice their asses off, play a good amount of serious friendly’s (probably more serious than NBA preseason) and the tournament is excellent competition and pretty high stakes, especially for the top 10 teams. There’s probably 5-10 teams that would compete well with the bottom 5 teams in the NBA. FIBA is much higher level than typical Euroleague, as each team is kind of an all-star team.

    Also, think abut how many NBA teams have major personnel shakeups and have about the same amount of time to gel before the season starts. I would compare FIBA to the first couple of weeks of the NBA season for the bottom 10-15 NBA teams, except with higher stakes. There’s no “let’s see how this 19yo rookie develops” or tanking in FIBA, the best players play and they play every game to win.

    If Frank thrives in that environment, that’s a really good sign for him and supports picking up his option. If he sucks or gets benched….G-League here he comes.

  117. The Infamous Cdiggy

    Back to the Ralph Sampson comments – last month the men’s bball coach where I work said that Houston misused him – they treated him like a typical 5 when he was more a face-up and finese 4-ish. Says him banging with 5s is what caused his injury woes.

  118. swiftandabundant

    Yeah as bad as he has been, it seems fine to pick up Frank’s option for the season and see how it plays out. His money isn’t that much and at best we’re a fringe playoff team this year. So why not see if he can prove anything at all. Who knows, maybe we resign him for the vet minimum and then he takes a leap to serviceable role player!

  119. Farfa

    I think by now Frank has by far the highest “comments about player X/actual player X’s basketball skills” ratio in KB history

  120. TheClashFan

    Knicks: yeah, I’d go ahead and pick up Frank’s option and move him to the wing. He just doesn’t seem to have the mindset for a PG. If he struggles in camp and can’t get good minutes, send him to D League and tell him to shoot, shoot, shoot. The rebounding is a concern, but he just needs to be coached and prodded to collapse in a bit when the opposing team shoots.

    Mets: so fun to watch now. BVW is an idiot, but maybe he’s a good luck charm, too? The young core is fun, and not having to watch Cano’s lazy ass in the field and not running out ground balls is a joy. Sadly, Jared Kelenic got promoted again (to AA now), and is off to a good start there. Wow does that trade suck.

  121. KnickfaninNJ

    My intuitive take on Ntilikina is that he is a bit like Shumpert in that he’s known for defense but scores badly. Of course his offensive stats are worse than Shumperts were, but he’s also younger and he tries to do more point guard stuff than Shumpert ever did. I listened to the podcast about him in FIBA games do far, and I interpreted it as he is more decisive than last season. He doesn’t hesitate about what he does the way he used. That should help his offense. So I am expecting him to be better this year. My expectation is that eventually he will be a good NBA role player the way Shumpert has been.

  122. JK47

    Sadly, Jared Kelenic got promoted again (to AA now), and is off to a good start there. Wow does that trade suck.

    The opportunity cost is the worst part about that trade. BVW could have gotten some useful things for that Kelenic/Dunn package. Kelenic is a top 10 prospect and just screams future All-Star.

    BVW did make two good moves: the JD Davis trade was legit genius, as he was picked up for Ross Adolph (not a prospect), Scott Manea (not a prospect) and Luis Santana, a fringy prospect who is still young but who has had a disappointing season. Davis, obviously can mash like nobody’s business and has already been a key player for the Mets.

    The other great move he made was the third round pick of Matthew Allan and the gaming of the slot system to sign him. That was straight up stealing a first round pick.

  123. ess-dog

    I can’t believe that Golden State is going to start the year with McKinnie and Cauley-Stein in the starting lineup! Even Russell starting is kind of a blow, but the other guys… jeez. Do they have other options I don’t know about??

  124. 2FOR18, understands math

    Frank needs to spend some time with a motivational speaker or something. Maybe train in the desert with Rocky like in Creed 2.
    Shump was never passive the way Frank is, and as much I’ve hoped for the best with him, unless this changes, he’s going to continue to be garbage offensively and on the boards.

  125. 2FOR18, understands math

    Cano getting hurt was the best thing that could have happened to the Mets. He should have been on the bench anyway, but that never would have happened organically.

  126. the don nelson era

    I think Cano is poised to join a list of Mets greats that already includes David Wright, Yoenis Cespedes, and Johan Santana.

    Guys who had big money deals that let the Wilpons claim an inflated payroll total but whose salaries were mostly covered by insurance.

  127. TheClashFan

    @149

    I think Cano is poised to join a list of Mets greats that already includes David Wright, Yoenis Cespedes, and Johan Santana.

    Yeah, but those guys at least had some prime years with the Mets. Cano was already over the hill, and he cost two blue chip prospects, one of which is elite and a possible future star. Four more years of the statue formerly known as Robinson Cano, at about $20m per year. To be fair, maybe Diaz settles down at some point and becomes the elite closer they thought he was.

  128. 2FOR18, understands math

    My tin foil hat Mets fan friend is convinced the Wilpons broke Cespedes’ ankles (for the insurance coverage)

    I mean really, the guy stepped in a hole and broke both his ankles??

  129. Knew Your Nicks

    Shump put heart and balls in many games during his Knicks years but I prefer Frank’s classy-stuck with you-hands all over you like a pervert- D over Shumps heroic-theatrical-pseudoaggressive D.
    Put me on Frank’s side.

  130. Z-man

    I don’t know much about the Mets’ FO beyond that the Cano deal seemed stupid from the start. Beyond that, it does seem like they’re actually in a good position going forward. Calloway seems to have turned it around and the team is as fun to watch right now as any team in the league. Last night’s game was a blast to attend, my first this year and I’m thinking of going back for more. Maybe they deserve a little wiggle room, especially the manager.

  131. Z-man

    One under-the-radar move that I’m loving is picking up Joe Panik. He’s totally old school, excellent fielder, scrappy, does the little things, doesn’t strike out. Bashing HRs is great, but nothing like a team that scratches and claws for runs.

  132. TheClashFan

    Yeah, Panik is a fun guy to root for. He laid down a perfect sac bunt last night (something very few Mets seem to be able to do) that was key in the winning rally…of course it helped that Cleveland later botched a game-ending DP grounder). Maybe he’s finally fully recovered from his lingering concussion issues.

    The Mets have a very good young core. Imagine if they also had Kelenic at AA, too? That dude might be in the bigs next September. Oh well, maybe Nimmo gets back and returns to his 2018 form soon?

  133. Hubert

    Frank can be the worst offensive player in basketball again next year and it would still make sense to pick up his option.

    These Frank arguments are like phases of the moon cycle. Since we’re all restrating our opinions, I’ll restate mine:

    He’s been shit, but he has one elite skill (pnr defense), so we should probably just wait til he’s 22 before we kick him to the curb.

  134. DRed

    I mean they’re getting in the way of Trier, Dotson, RJ, Braz. They shouldn’t be on the team. The FO panicked after striking out this summer and is all in on wins. Maybe that’s best course to help them keep their jobs but it’s not best for the team. I do agree that Frank should play in the G League rather than sit on the bench. But the whole situation stinks and I hate when people (not you) write about how this has really been solid work by FO this summer.

    I don’t know that we’re all in on wins. Part of the benefit of overpaying guys for one year deals is you can just tell them to shut the fuck up and go home if they wind up getting hissy about playing time. The situation is definitely sub-optimal. I don’t think this front office knows how to evaluate players correctly (why the fuck is Bobby Portis on this team?), but they do seem to understand contract structure at least.

  135. geo

    some juicy b-ball discussions going on…looking forward to the world championships next week…plus, the start of college football…

    sports interest wise, the summer months can drag a bit…

    good to see the amazings hanging in there…they got some really nice young players on the roster…

    as a yanks fan, the thing that’s been on my mind a bunch the last month or so is what to do with miguel andujar…no way you move gio out of the third base position…even if he wasn’t hitting so well, that glove work of his is sexy…

    not sure though exactly what’s going on with gio’s contract…i know he’s on a one year deal, not sure what “rights” the yanks may have to sign him for next year…

    maybe miguel can find a way in at first base…although to be honest – they should probably just park lemahieu there…

    i’m not so sure they should hang on to andujar or frazier…they’re both ready for the bigs, but, are getting squeezed out of the lineup…

  136. Stratomatic: Sometimes referred to as Satan

    No matter what position Frank plays on offense, he can defend the most important guard on the other team. If you play him with DSJ, DSJ runs the point on offense and Frank gets the more critical assignment on defense and is also a secondary play maker. If you play him with RJ Barrett (which I’d LOVE if one of them could shoot), they both handle the ball and make plays and Frank covers the PG. He’s versatile enough to play 3 positions and getting strong enough to switch on some PFs for a play here or there because of his length.

    Instead of whining about his boxscore stats and defending our early projections about his potential, we should begging God to give him a solid 3 point shot. He can become a significant piece on a high caliber team if he develops any decent offense at all. That’s how disruptive he is on defense when he’s focused on it. He can hold star players and PGs to well below their norms and really disrupt. He’s performing that well on defense.

  137. TheClashFan

    I guess I find myself in the bland middle on Frank. I think he’s a valuable defender, but the guy simply has to shoot much better to be a rotation guy.

    I don’t worry about the rebounding as long as other guys can handle that aspect while he’s out on the perimeter checking shooters. If he can defend well, switch on nearly everyone, AND make shots, he’s valuable and worth keeping.

  138. Knew Your Nicks

    Exactly my thoughts on Frank.
    Plays 1 to 3 depending on the others.
    His stats don’t tell the whole truth.
    His D is “the truth”.

  139. Knew Your Nicks

    If we’re serious about positionless basketball then improved Frank is one of our main future guys.

  140. KnickfaninNJ

    I think he’s going to improve enough to be a rotation player in a year or two, but I still predict he will be traded to Orlando.

  141. geo

    frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank frank

    just wanted to get all the frank out of my system for a moment…

  142. Knew Your Nicks

    What worries me most about Frank is not his offense or his rebounds or his dribble but…his desire and his will to play for the Knicks and stay in the nba.
    Same worries that i have about the Knicks this season:
    Do we REALLY want to WIN ? Or are we going to tank/suck once more incognito ?

  143. KnickfaninNJ

    Frank is the only Knick actually playing Basketball in FIBA I think, because I recall Barrett dropped out and Mitch was only on the select team. So who else will we talk about.

  144. Z-man

    @169 true but misleading. A low-usage defensive player is valuable (Chandler, Rodman) and a high-usage offensive player is valuable (Harden, Kyrie.)

    More importantly, you can’t be unplayable on either end (Jimmer, Novak) but if you had to choose, it’s better to be bad on O than on D. It’s probably worse to play 4-on-5 on D than on O.

  145. Knew Your Nicks

    Great two way players are Ultra Rare.
    Great Defenders are Rare.
    Great Offensive players are more common.

    Rare is Good.
    :)

  146. Dink

    Guards + wings who are great on D can be neutralized much easier than great offensive players. Check out this article about Kawhi from 2016. It’s all about how the Spurs defensive rating was worse with Kawhi on the floor. Basically whoever Kawhi was covering would park themselves in the corner and never touch the ball, allowing the Spurs opponent to essentially play 4v4 against weaker defenders.

    Frank is nowhere close to Kawhi’s defensive skill level. But if he ever got there it still may not help much unless the Knicks had a lineup full of plus defenders to negate the freeze out strategy. Which will never happen with this front office.

  147. Name is Bron - James Bron

    I personally have no major problem with what the FO did in signing a bunch of lunchpail vets to short contracts. I doubt that they will get in the way of Trier, RJ, Dotson or Braz. If anything, they will actually help their development by making them earn minutes rather than being thrown out there, Like Frank and Knox were. Accountability is a good thing for a young player.

    I hear this take a lot and it baffles me. In many situations it might be true. But our situation at this time? Trier and Dotson are in their final contract years. Isn’t that enough incentive? Frank’s fighting to stay in NBA (unless he’s yearning to play in Europe). Braz knows as a 2nd round pick he’s gotta make the most of his minutes. Poor RJ’s gonna start hearing “Bust” if he doesn’t produce.

    It’s the chicken and egg. If you want guys to improve, you’ve gotta give them minutes. So long as they’re hustling out there, what’s the problem? I agree about Knox last year but that was Fiz trying to raise his counting stats to make the pick appear better. Who in the broad media cites TS% or eFG%? And Frank could have – and still could – benefit from some time in the G league. If he’s not able to hit 3’s there, then…But it’s impossible to justify Wayne and Reggie on the team when you have a raft of young wings who need playing time.

    This roster would have avoided this problem:
    1: Payton, DSJ, Frank
    2: RJ, Trier, Dotson, Frank
    3: Morris, Knox, Braz
    4: Randle, Vonleh, Braz
    5: Mitch, Tyson Chandler, Kornet

  148. dtrickey

    I think it is reasonable to look at Frank’s FIBA output, but you probably have to put some caveats on it. Warm up stage is a bit of a mixed bag given teams are working out rotations etc. My only concern is that France have a relatively soft group stage (Dominican Republic Jordan and Germany) so any decent output could be followed with “but he was only playing X team”. That being said, the expectation would be he lights up lesser teams. If he can’t be productive against the lower seeds in decent minutes, that is somewhat a red flag.

  149. rama got that Fizdale Magic

    I think by now Frank has by far the highest “comments about player X/actual player X’s basketball skills” ratio in KB history

    Agreed. I’m still on Team Frank, but there is no data to support this position, just a fan who likes defense and hopes he puts it all together somehow.

  150. rama got that Fizdale Magic

    As for the FO’s off season, I don’t see how you can give it higher than a C. Drop some or all of Bullock, Ellington, Portis, and Gibson and you give it a B. Maybe B+ because of the crafty contracts.

    But we did sign all those guys, for reasons hard to understand.

  151. MBunge

    I hear this take a lot and it baffles me.

    The whole “earning minutes” thing can definitely be overplayed. But when you look at somebody like Demarcus Cousins or the T-Wolves with Wiggins and KAT, it’s hard not to wonder if handing those guys on-court ownership of their team the second they put on their jersey hasn’t had some negative effect on their development as players.

    I mean, Cousins and KAT are both legitimately bad defenders for no legitimate physical or basketball IQ reason. They were just never required to play defense in order to get all the minutes they ever wanted.

    Mike

  152. Hubert

    as a yanks fan, the thing that’s been on my mind a bunch the last month or so is what to do with miguel andujar…

    They really missed the boat when they could have sold high on him this summer. I was dying for them to move him for a starter. Even healthy, he’s too bad to play 3B and his BABIP last year was so high it suggested he’d level off even if he didn’t get hurt.

  153. 2FOR18, understands math

    funny I was hoping they would trade Andujar at his peak as well. I see a replaceable DH or corner OFer type.

    I am dying for Frank to just go all in and show some Starks. I love his defense. Won’t somebody please wake him up! It’s so frustrating to witness such a passive athlete.

  154. thenoblefacehumper

    Instead of whining about his boxscore stats and defending our early projections about his potential, we should begging God to give him a solid 3 point shot

    Good news: my prayers have been answered and Frank is now a 40% 3PT shooter

    Bad news: this left him with a career .477 TS%

    We can keep pretending that Frank is one good 3PT shot away from being a competent offensive player, or we can acknowledge that he is a complete offensive mess who likely lacks the talent to stay on an NBA floor.

    Even if we use the example of pretend, 40% 3PT shooter Frank, his defense has to be historically good to justify playing him in an era where the league average TS% is better than Kobe Bryant’s career TS%. I think he’s a good defender for sure, but the evidence suggests his impact is rather limited. The best defenders the NBA generate turnovers and end possessions. Yes, there’s more to defense than those things. No, there’s no such thing as a guy who doesn’t do them but yet is still worth playing despite a .477 TS% if we arbitrarily decide to make him Kyle Korver from 3 overnight.

    I can respect the opinion of the folks who acknowledge there’s nothing here but still enjoy rooting for the kid for various reasons. Hell, I’m kind of in that category myself. For the life of me, I have no idea what the people who think there’s anything more to Frank than that are seeing, or at least pretending to see.

    I guess it’s just a fan thing, though. I’m sure on sunsblogger.net there are people making 3,000 word posts about how Dragan Bender really just needs to be used correctly and has just dealt with too much coaching turnover and will soon be scooped up by the Spurs and lead them to a championship and blah blah blah. Celtics fans were making Guerschon Yabusele the centerpiece of fake Anthony Davis trades right up until the day he was unceremoniously waived.

  155. thenoblefacehumper

    If Frank thrives in that environment, that’s a really good sign for him and supports picking up his option. If he sucks or gets benched….G-League here he comes

    I think Frank in the G-League would be a good and interesting idea, but it’s not going to happen. The front office is trying to keep the lottery pick shine on him for as long as they can. Nothing will make it fade more quickly than watching him put up 9/4/3 with a 49% TS against the likes of Scott Machado.

    Personally, I see literally nothing to lose from a trade value perspective. We tried to get among the worst possible trade returns allowed under the CBA (a single second round pick) for Frank and 29 teams said no. There’s no value to protect, just see what he can do against players closer to his talent level.

  156. KnickfaninNJ

    If Frank shot 33% on threes, never shot twos and never got foul shots, wouldn’t he have a 0.666 true shooting percentage?

  157. 2FOR18, understands math

    Good news: my prayers have been answered and Frank is now a 40% 3PT shooter

    Bad news: this left him with a career .477 TS%

    ouch.

  158. thenoblefacehumper

    If Frank shot 33% on threes, never shot twos and never got foul shots, wouldn’t he have a 0.666 true shooting percentage?

    It’s August, folks.

    But no, it would be 50%. Still really bad!

  159. Early Bird

    Good news: my prayers have been answered and Frank is now a 40% 3PT shooter

    Bad news: this left him with a career .477 TS%

    It’s telling that Frank needs to go from one of the worst 3p shooting wings in the league to one of the best in order to be just as efficient as Kevin Knox. That’s bad.

    I think going back to Europe is the best thing for Frank. Maybe he can put something together and come back when he’s 25. Rotting on the bench here isn’t good for anyone.

  160. swiftandabundant

    I think the shine on Frank as a draft pick wore off a long time ago. And honestly, worrying about that is a dumb reason not to send someone down to the G-League. I know its perceived as a demotion but it really shouldn’t be for some players. We should have done that for a lot of his rookie year and he would probably be much further along than he is now.

  161. dtrickey

    I think the shine on Frank as a draft pick wore off a long time ago. And honestly, worrying about that is a dumb reason not to send someone down to the G-League. I know its perceived as a demotion but it really shouldn’t be for some players. We should have done that for a lot of his rookie year and he would probably be much further along than he is now.

    Happy to put my hand up and say I was wrong about Frank going for a stint in the G-League in his rookie season. If he weren’t a lottery pick, you could argue he would have been a perfect draft and sash candidate.

  162. Name is Bron - James Bron

    PLAYER X:
    Career FT% = 57%
    Career 2FG% = 42%
    Career 3FG% = 39%
    Career DRB% = 9.4%
    Career ORB% = 2.3%
    Career FTR – .213
    Career USG = 11.4%
    Career STL% = 1.6%
    Career TS% = 50%

    Am I right that JK47, Jowles, Farfa, Noble would never want this guy on their team?
    His name: Bruce Bowen. Every year except the last two when he was 35-36yo the team was better when he was on the court. Sound familiar?

    Frank’s a better passer, FT shooter, and 2FG jump shooter than Bowen ever was. Bowen struggled in his first couple of years in the NBA in his mid-20’s. Did Spurs give up on him? No.

    The difference between the two camps here is one would never pick up Frank’s option and would be happy to trade him for a 2nd round pick where the other would pick up his option and hope he figures things out. The latter camp is not so arrogant as the former camp in projecting Frank’s future. Rather, our view is that the potential benefit of an already historically plus player – despite atrocious offense – improving on that end outweighs the minimal opportunity cost of 6m and a roster spot.

  163. Owen

    There is something deeply admirable about our communal commitment to posting 10,000 words about Frank every single summer day.

    For the record, I don’t think he is going to make it. I still hope he does. I’d rather watch him be terrible on offense than watch Knox be terrible at everything but realistically neither have any hope of being part of the Knicks team I hope to see in the next five years.

  164. 2FOR18, understands math

    The defense is the thing wherein we’ll catch the conscience of the Knick.

    from memory so don’t kill me if I’m off.

    But that’s why there’s so much talk about Frank. As Knicks fans we’re thirsty for wing defense.

  165. thenoblefacehumper

    I’m not sure what I’m supposed to take away from the Bowen comparison. Bowen’s sticking in the league was certainly impressive and unlikely. What bearing does that have on Frank? Their backgrounds aren’t similar at all. Bowen played four years of D-1 ball, and showed at least a little statistical intrigue while doing so. I wouldn’t have drafted him, and no one did, but the teams that rolled the dice on him (as a UDFA, not lottery pick, for the record) had an idea of what they were getting and he turned into the 90th or so percentile outcome of that idea. That’s great.

    Now tell me what it means for the guy who can’t dribble.

  166. thenoblefacehumper

    You know, for all the talk about guys whose contributions “don’t show up in the box score,” it’s awfully hard to find good teams that gave a ton of minutes to guys the metrics said sucked.

    To be clear, I think the all-in-one metrics have plenty of flaws. They seem to underrate SGs who could probably do some of the PG/SF stuff if asked, and overrate bigs whose skills are easily replaceable.

    And yet, when you go down the list of good teams there really aren’t many Frank Ntilikinas, or even Kristaps Porzingises for that matter. Sure you’ll find the odd deep bench player, but most of the primary bench guys get to at least a .080 WS48 or 0.5 BPM or so.

    I dunno, seems pretty hard to win with guys who don’t make a dent in the box score.

    Serious question: what’s a good example of a team that was highly successful and gave a lot of minutes and/or big roles to guys the metrics didn’t like?

  167. Name is Bron - James Bron

    I’m not sure what I’m supposed to take away from the Bowen comparison.

    Serious? You’ve repeatedly stated even if Frank shot 3’s at 40% he’d be a terrible player because he’d still be terrible at everything else. I give you a guy who shot 3’s at 39% and was a lousy passer, lousy rebounder, lousy free throw shooter, 50% TS, tepid FTR, shot 57% at the rim, anemic STL% and BLK%. Spurs played him because he was still a net positive.

    BTW Bowen averaged 28% from 3 in 4 years of college.

  168. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    Serious question: what’s a good example of a team that was highly successful and gave a lot of minutes and/or big roles to guys the metrics didn’t like?

    Klay Thompson comes to mind for older stats like WS48, WP48 and BPM, yet the NBA Index stats (POE, PIPM, RPM, RAPM) rate him as a 95th percentile player.

    Strangely, he gets an F in perimeter defense from NBA Index. An F!

  169. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    Serious? You’ve repeatedly stated even if Frank shot 3’s at 40% he’d be a terrible player because he’d still be terrible at everything else. I give you a guy who shot 3’s at 39% and was a lousy passer, lousy rebounder, lousy free throw shooter, 50% TS, tepid FTR, shot 57% at the rim, anemic STL% and BLK%. Spurs played him because he was still a net positive.

    BTW Bowen averaged 28% from 3 in 4 years of college.

    Bro, in his day, the league shot like .510 TS% consistently. Now it’s .560 and Ntilikina is a FAR worse shooter than Bowen was for the majority of his career. And Bowen was largely a shit player on offense.

  170. Knew Your Nicks

    iF Klay Thompson gets an F in perimeter D and Cole Aldrich is an undiscovered stats Freak waiting to kick ass then it seems more accurate to ask a gypsy fortune teller about Frank’s nba career than trust projected analytics !

  171. Name is Bron - James Bron

    Bro, in his day, the league shot like .510 TS% consistently. Now it’s .560

    I doubt it’s that great a jump but it has increased largely due to rise in Pace. Teams are pushing the ball more and scoring more in transition so you’d expect a rise in eFG%. Doesn’t seem particularly relevant to the discussion we’re having.

    And Bowen was largely a shit player on offense.

    That’s the gist of the matter. He was terrible on offense but still a net plus to the team. I doubt it’s a fluke that every team Frank’s ever played on he’s been a plus player. If Frank’s already a plus player, imagine if he did improve on offense…just like Bowen improved from an atrocious 28% 3FG% at Frank’s age to 39%. Frank’s already a better passer, free throw shooter and jump shooter in general. Bowen was a spot-up shooter, terrible off the dribble.

    Ntilikina is a FAR worse shooter than Bowen was for the majority of his career.

    You’re not adjusting for age. Here’s Bowen’s 2FG% starting at age 26: 42%, 28, 33, 39, 39. His 3FG%: 33, 26, 46, 33, 37.

  172. thenoblefacehumper

    Klay Thompson comes to mind for older stats like WS48, WP48 and BPM, yet the NBA Index stats (POE, PIPM, RPM, RAPM) rate him as a 95th percentile player.

    Yeah, but the Warriors aren’t a good example because they give/gave so many minutes to box score metric gods. I’m thinking more about teams chock full of guys whose contributions are allegedly hard to quantify. They really don’t seem to be very good teams!

  173. thenoblefacehumper

    I doubt it’s that great a jump but it has increased largely due to rise in Pace. Teams are pushing the ball more and scoring more in transition so you’d expect a rise in eFG%. Doesn’t seem particularly relevant to the discussion we’re having.

    What it means is Bowen was able to get his TS% close to, or higher than, the league average regularly.

    What’s the grand plan to get Frank to the current league average?

  174. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    I doubt it’s that great a jump

    what

    but it has increased largely due to rise in Pace. Teams are pushing the ball more and scoring more in transition so you’d expect a rise in eFG%. Doesn’t seem particularly relevant to the discussion we’re having.

    Because as league average increases, the value of a .419 TS% shooter plummets. This is not rocket science.

  175. thenoblefacehumper

    Bruce Bowen’s 3 best years by BPM:

    1. 2005-2006, league average TS% was 53.6, Bowen’s was 54%
    2. 2002-2003, league average TS% was 51.9%, Bowen’s was 56.3%
    3. 2004-2005, league average TS% was 52.9%, Bowen’s was 52.1%

    Yeah, sorry man, I ain’t seeing Frank Ntilikina here.

  176. KnickfaninNJ

    But it’s an excellent point about Bowen’s age. Frank is at an age where Bowen was still in college.

    If Frank did shoot just threes at 33%, and had a TS% of 0.500 (thanks for the correction above). he would be roughly 25th percentile in the league. That would probably be ok for a defensive specialist. My point here is that the shots he took last year weren’t all threes or at the rim and that made him worse than if he was more selective in his shooting. It’s the same problem Knox had, he took too many shots that he was bad at and not enough that he was good at. I don’t think it’s a coincidence this happened to two players on the same team. The team was coached to do that. Fizdale surely knows this made the team worse, but winning wasn’t the goal last season.

  177. Bruno Almeida

    Are we really still discussing Frank? Damn. At least he certainly has got to be the league leader in WW/P (words written about a player divided by his actual production on court when he plays).

  178. bobneptune

    Bruce Bowen’s 3 best years by BPM:

    1. 2005-2006, league average TS% was 53.6, Bowen’s was 54%
    2. 2002-2003, league average TS% was 51.9%, Bowen’s was 56.3%
    3. 2004-2005, league average TS% was 52.9%, Bowen’s was 52.1%

    Yeah, sorry man, I ain’t seeing Frank Ntilikina here.

    Making bad analogies is a big part of what we do here. BB was 31 for the earliest season you mentioned.

    If you took BB through his 29 year old season he sucked really hard on the offensive end:

    https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=1&player_id1_hint=Bruce+Bowen&player_id1_select=Bruce+Bowen&player_id1=bowenbr01&y1=2001&player_id2_hint=Frank+Ntilikina&player_id2_select=Frank+Ntilikina&player_id2=ntilila01&idx=players

    Interestingly enough…. BB got MARKEDLY better offensively AFTER 5300 minutes in the NBA. Imagine that!!!

    Of course this is apropos about nothing and Frank hasn’t shown a whisp offensively, but maybe he could get til at least he graduates from college before he gets pitched into the trash heap? I think that is what the Frank-o-philes want…. its not like playing him hurts their Playoff seeding….

    And just for the record…. the GIANT’s God awful bust #6 pick went 9-11 last night playing the entire first half (sans one series) on the road in the 3rd exhibition game . Just for the record his stat line looks something like:

    25/30 with a 83.3% completion rate for 369 yds 2/0 TD/INT and a 140.1 QBR

    The coach had the best line of the night:

    All this made Shurmur quite frisky when talking about the player the Giants selected with the No. 6-overall pick.

    “Like I said, you can ask me all you want about why I like him,’’ Shurmur said. “I think it’s time to start asking the people that didn’t like him what they think, quite frankly.’’

  179. Hubert

    Frank is at an age where Bowen was still in college.

    Age is it with Frank. Period. He’s fucking 20. He looks god awful but some people shouldn’t be in the NBA at age 20. I have no idea how he got graded a lottery pick. He was a second round draft-and-stash prospect the whole way.

    I think he causes such spirited convo for two reasons:

    1. Shit or not, he was woefully mishandled last season. Mental nurturing is important. What was the point of fellating Mudiay all year and picking on Frank? It was a developmental year, ffs. Let the kid do what he was good at and stroke his ego. See if confidence helps him. His handle is one of those things that seems hopeless, but you could have worked on building up his confidence instead of making him feel miserable, unappreciated, and home sick. It’s basic logic and human management, and the Knicks failed it miserably.

    2. The few things he seems to have a grasp on (defense and unselfish play) are things that have been missing here for so long. To see him brushed aside bc he doesn’t display enough of the things we all hate (selfish play, iso scoring, defensive apathy) is frustrating.

    So, while being absolutely shit, he manages to touch on two things that really stoke our passions here: Knicks management, and the 20 year conveyor belt of an awful basketball archetype we’ve been subjected to.

  180. Hubert

    And just for the record…. the GIANT’s God awful bust #6 pick went 9-11 last night playing the entire first half (sans one series) on the road in the 3rd exhibition game . Just for the record his stat line looks something like:

    25/30 with a 83.3% completion rate for 369 yds 2/0 TD/INT and a 140.1 QBR

    I will admit, I am aroused. Foolish consistency is not my hobgoblin.

  181. Z-man

    Mudiay actually has some point guard skills and improved markedly last year. Not enough to re-sign (thank the lord!) but enough to stay in the NBA.

    If Frank is gonna pout and be homesick when he’s earning more in a year than I would in 2 lifetimes, fuck him, let him stay in France.

  182. Early Bird

    The unselfish play and defense are reasons we hope Frank succeeds, they are not good reasons for believing he’ll succeed.

    If you think Frank needs more time to develop, let someone else put in the effort and let’s sign him back when he’s actually good. For now he’s a waste of a roster spot.

  183. Z-man

    Seriously, let him get mentally nurtured down in the G-League with the other wannabe scrubs. If he can’t dominate there, get him the fuck off the team.

  184. Hubert

    The unselfish play and defense are reasons we hope Frank succeeds, they are not good reasons for believing he’ll succeed.

    Yes, exactly. The people who believe frank will succeed are smoking something. Most “Frankophiles” simply hope he will and lament all the ways we’ve screwed up his development. We’re also not swayed by the circular arguments. For example:

    Point: Frank is too young and undeveloped to be judged right now

    Counterpoint: HIS BPM AND TS% IS BLAH BLAH BLAH.

    Yeah, we get it, he’s shit. Also, if you put a Class A baseball player in the major leagues, he will strike out a shit ton. Pointing to those strikeouts doesn’t necessarily mean he can never be good, it could mean it was a stupid idea to think he could go straight to the big league. The next step in that example isn’t “throw the player away”, it’s “alter the development plan”. Frankophiles are largely irate bc the Knicks are thinking the former instead of the latter, and that’s dumb.

    For now he’s a waste of a roster spot.

    Why, because we really need to make room for another Wayne Ellington?

  185. DRed

    Klay Thompson comes to mind for older stats like WS48, WP48 and BPM, yet the NBA Index stats (POE, PIPM, RPM, RAPM) rate him as a 95th percentile player.

    Strangely, he gets an F in perimeter defense from NBA Index. An F!

    Klay is a really fascinating player. It’s a shame he got hurt and resigned with the Warriors (I mean I understand he was going to resign even if he didn’t get hurt, but I would have loved to see a healthy Klay on another team, or a Warriors team where he would have a different role)

  186. Early Bird

    Why, because we really need to make room for another Wayne Ellington?

    I’d rather take a player who might contribute within the next 3 years. So, yes.

    If Frank turns into a player, it doesn’t appear to be soon. While we’re waiting for him to break out we’re giving up the opportunity to add value now.

    Take Frank when there’s a reasonable chance he can contribute to the team. If he’s a project, let the project get closer to completion. No one is rushing out to sign a player to a 3 year contract when he won’t contribute over the next 3 years.

  187. Stratomatic: Sometimes referred to as Satan

    Two way players win chips.

    IMO, this needs to be more nuanced.

    You need 2-3 high usage high efficiency scorers and smart play making to become a great offensive team. Then you need role players that defend at a high level (and preferably do something else at a high level) without being a huge liability on offense. By liability, I mean he has to be good enough that you can’t leave him wide open. He doesn’t have to be a great shot creator or scorer, but he has to be able to hit an open shot (preferably a 3).

    You can almost never have too many plus defenders on the court. But on offense if you have 2-3 high level scorers, you aren’t going to add a lot of value by throwing in another. There are greater diminishing returns on offense because there are only so many shots and possessions. You’ll add more value by throwing in an elite defender or play maker that is not a liability as a scorer.

    To apply that to Frank, his ideal “role” would be to limit or shut down the opposing team’s best playmaker/scorer at guard. If he can do that on a team that already has 2-3 scorers on the court, his added value will be significant as long as he can hit an open shot and is not crippling the offense. He won’t have to score more than 10 points per 36 for us to have a great offense. If he’s also adding primary or secondary smart play making to enhance the efficiency of our scorers, his value is immense.

    Of course that presents 2 problems.

    1. We don’t have 2-3 really good scorers (yet)
    2. Frank can’t hit an open shot (yet)

    However, the idea that he has to become a really good scorer and two way player to have value is flawed. When you are an elite defender you can have immense value with the right team construction.

  188. Name is Bron - James Bron

    To apply that to Frank, his ideal “role” would be to limit or shut down the opposing team’s best playmaker/scorer at guard.

    Don’t insult Frank or your membership to the exclusive Frankie Booster Club will be revoked. He’s able to guard SFs and some PFs. If you look at the FIBA video, he’s much stronger. He could switch 1 to 5 positions.

    When you are an elite defender you can have immense value with the right team construction.

    Roberson is an excellent modern day example (versus Bowen) of a guy who had a huge plus impact even while shooting 25% from 3 and 46% FT%. He did make up for it to a degree by being efficient on 2FG%. But even in years when he posted about a 51 TS he still was a huge net plus by raw on/off.

    I’d rather take a player who might contribute within the next 3 years. So, yes.

    It’s mind-boggling to me that anyone thinks Ellington should get minutes over Trier, RJ, Dotson, Frank. But I’d have no problem if team picked up Frank’s option and sent him to G league for 3 months and gave all the SG minutes to Dot, RJ, and Zo.

  189. Z-man

    Nobody here is rooting for Frank to fail, certainly not me. It actually sucks that I’ve been spot on with him since before the draft, I’d much rather have been eating crow and laughing at myself.

    Sometimes you just have to be a cold-blooded realist, even if you love a player. I totally agree that the Knicks made a mistake in playing him too much at PG in year 1, and said continually that he should have been doing stints in the G-League rather than being thrown to the lions in NBA games. The stock response was “Don’t do that, it would hurt his little feelings!” So to anyone who says now that they screwed up his development, look back at those threads and make sure you weren’t giving me shit for my stance back then.

    I don’t think playing him in the G-League would have helped all that much, he would have sucked down there too and then the whiners would have complained that his confidence was shot by sending him down. There was no winning argument to make to the true believers then.

    He may turn it around….today, tomorrow or 10 years from now (like Bruce Bowen…what a dumb comp on so many levels…) But the likelihood that keeping him on the 15-man roster will yield any positive results in the next 2-3 years is pretty small. Kadeem Allen is 3X the player Frank is at 1/3 the salary. He’s 80% or more of Frank defensively and 1000% better on offense. Guys like him are available all the time for peanuts. How long do you tie up a roster spot and cap space in a guy who has been a bust from day 1?

  190. JK47

    The problem with Frank is that he doesn’t even have the building blocks of decent offensive play. He can’t dribble, can’t finish around the basket, doesn’t have burst or quick-twitch athleticism, isn’t a great leaper. It would be one thing if he had the terrible box score stats but you could see he had ball skills and athletic ability. But he doesn’t.

    He’s good at getting skinny through screens and he can disrupt passing lanes and he can pass a little. That is it. That is the sum total of his skill set.

    The other things he can’t do, you’re not going to learn them at age 22 or whatever. Guards that can’t dribble don’t have a lot of value, and neither do forwards who can’t rebound. I don’t believe “handle” is a skill you can drastically improve on. It’s an innate ability. You can tighten it up a little, but that dude is never going to be an adequate ball handler. Pretty much any random NCAA point guard has obviously better handle.

    I mean, good luck to the kid but he is facing some very long odds.

  191. Z-man

    Hezonja, Mudiay, Okafor and Bender may all become stars in 5 years. Would that make their drafting teams stupid for cutting bait? They’ve moved on to new prospects…and nobody seems to give a shit. The same would be true if we gave up on Frank (assuming he shown nothing encouraging in FIBA.) It would be years before anyone cared, probably never.

  192. Z-man

    Mudiay made a massive statistical improvement from his first 2 years in the league and he STILL is a terrible player not worthy of a rotation spot on anything but a terrible team at his current level. Maybe he improves more and is an asset for Utah, maybe not. That’s the kind of situation Frank needs. He needs to improve from “terrible” to “terribly mediocre” and then hook up with a playoff team who can afford to waste a 15th roster spot to develop him. In Utah, they wouldn’t have to worry about losing 60 games if he sucks.

    I’d way rather watch Ellington give me 20 solid, competent minutes while developing guys like Trier, Dotson, Iggy, RJ, Wilks, DSj,…you know, guys that haven’t proven that they suck yet…

  193. GianaDani

    My two cents,

    He’s not a PG, cant create his shot and lacks aggression on offense to where he wont shoot unless he’s absolutely wide open. Its painful to watch sometimes.

    However, he has the talent potential and defensive instincts to be one the best defensive wings in this era. In order for Frank to have a shot to achieve his potential, he needs to play with a top five player in the league. Someone like Harden who garners all the attention and hates passing the ball. Frank will eventually hit wide open threes at high enough clip and make game winning plays on the defensive end during last 5 minutes of the game. He can become a significant piece on a championship caliber team. Playing on a losing team with scrubs, he has no shot stay in the league.

    Phil thought he can become Ron Harper or Derrick Fisher for his triangle. Bad pick. Bad fit with the Knicks. G league wont help him either. It will actually crush him as his natural instincts is to defer to some chucker and support him for team success.

  194. Name is Bron - James Bron

    Hezonja, Mudiay, Okafor and Bender may all become stars in 5 years. Would that make their drafting teams stupid for cutting bait?

    Okafor’s got major personality and work ethic issues. Don’t know enough about Bender to comment. Hezonja and Mudiay were bad on BOTH offense and defense. Frank has shown himself to be an excellent defender. BTW GSW almost regretted not picking up Looney’s 4th year option when he made steady improvement in Years 3 and 4. Somehow they managed to re-sign him dirt cheap.

    In terms of shooting, there’s a bit of a precedent for these types of players to start slow (Bowen, Artest, Dray who were all older in their first NBA years). Frank’s shooting motion appears to be OK. He had the #1 rating in pull-up jumpers in a FIBA tournament. He’s had long stretches where he’s shot well from 3. No reason to write him off at this stage in terms of shooting. And he’s shot 57% at the rim despite being scared to death to drive.

    Having a guy who’s able to guard the best wing on the opposing team or disrupt the opposing 1 guard is a valuable commodity. Few here appear to appreciate that. They’re the same people who gushed over Calderon’s TS% when we acquired him in that trade failing to appreciate how bad he was on defense. Focus on impact and have a bit of patience. The cost is negligible, potential benefit much greater.

  195. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    Of course this is apropos about nothing and Frank hasn’t shown a whisp offensively, but maybe he could get til at least he graduates from college before he gets pitched into the trash heap?

    Or maybe we’re all just sick of this “wait ’til eight years from now, he’s gonna be a stud” bullshit. Don’t forget you have to hold him on your roster — and pay him! — for another seven years before he catches up to Ol’ Mr. Bowen, who’s probably his best-case scenario and as arbitrary a comparison as it gets.

    Again, I say that the answer to this problem isn’t patience. It’s drafting older players who are closer to their peak production so you don’t have to wait a damn generation before your lottery pick starts to show himself as a reasonable NBA player.

  196. Name is Bron - James Bron

    I’d way rather watch Ellington give me 20 solid, competent minutes while developing guys like Trier, Dotson, Iggy, RJ, Wilks, DSj,…you know, guys that haven’t proven that they suck yet…

    Such a moronic take. You know the best way to “develop” those guys? You play them. Watching Ellington play won’t improve their games one iota. And it won’t motivate them to “earn” their minutes. Dotson and Trier are 23-24yo in contract years. Define their roles and play them.

    You still don’t appreciate how to evaluate players who are either terrible on defense or excellent on defense…players at the extreme. If you did, you wouldn’t have gone on a diatribe about Mudiay.
    Mudiay’s been a large minus player who’s shown nothing on offense and is terrible on defense. Frank’s been a net plus player who’s excelled on defense.

  197. Bruno Almeida

    Or maybe we could try drafting actual players with potential, instead of having to wait for 8 years until they can maybe figure everything out. I don’t know if you guys have been watching the same NBA as I do, but there are a lot of guys who wouldn’t have graduated college yet but who are productive players or are showing a lot of potential.

  198. JK47

    Frank doesn’t just suck compared to NBA players, he sucks compared to his peers, the guys who were in his same draft class.

    And I take great exception with the idea that you can hide a bad offensive player easier than you can hide a bad defender. One-way defensive players have gone the way of the dodo bird in the NBA. You ain’t playing in this league with a .400 eFG%, sorry fam.

  199. Name is Bron - James Bron

    Jowles has wheeled out his old friend the strawman. Nobody is saying to wait 8 years on Frank. Pick up his 4th year option, try to better define his role, and watch his progress (or lack thereof) over the next 2 years. You should have a much better idea of whether he’s worth re-signing at that stage.

  200. The Infamous Cdiggy

    Somebody say Yonkers?

    I can respect the opinion of the folks who acknowledge there’s nothing here but still enjoy rooting for the kid for various reasons.

    <– I think this is the fairest take on Frank. I would love for him to consistently give us the things we've all been longing for (great D, unselfish play, good 3-ball). But it's fair to ask if he'd been drafted if we had Perry/Mills and if the team (Phil) had actually committed to a full tank job leading up to the '17 Draft.

    In other news, the Yankees are here in LA to play the Dodgers for a wknd set. Dodgers have been a beast at home, and with their starting pitching, it's pretty unreasonable to think the Yankees can sweep. But boy would that put a huge smile on my face and give me serious bragging rights at work next week. I would get a broom for my office and sweep all the Dodger fans out whenever they'd walk in. Which is everybody on campus… lol.

  201. JK47

    When the Mets beat the Dodgers in the first round of the playoffs in 2015 that was one of the best sports memories of my life.

    A lot of shit was talked during that series between me and my Dodger fan friends.

    Also fuck Chase Utley.

  202. Z-man

    However, he has the talent potential and defensive instincts to be one the best defensive wings in this era.

    Funny how nobody in a decision-making capacity for an NBA franchise is willing to part with a singly 2nd round pick for a chance at an all-time great defender. Maybe every single one of them, even Morey, Ujiri, Buford, Ainge, et. al. is just not as smart as you.

    In terms of shooting, there’s a bit of a precedent for these types of players to start slow (Bowen, Artest, Dray who were all older in their first NBA years).

    Ron Artest was a dominant college player. So was Draymond. Looney averaged 15 and 12 per 40 at a high efficiency as a college freshman and has posted positive BPM, VORP and WS48 every year. Bowen went undrafted and didn’t figure it out until he was 10 years older than Frank.

    Frank accomplished absolutely nothing at Strasbourg, nothing. Frank has shown nothing in the NBA, nothing. He would have not been drafted at all if he was in the NCAA. Please stop making ridiculous comparisons.

  203. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    He would have not been drafted at all if he was in the NCAA.

    But what if he played for Duke? He could have won the superlative “most likely to win ROY” like every other Duke bust over the last five years.

  204. The Infamous Cdiggy

    JK47, my former supervisor shirks away from his Dodger fandom bc he claims to have been let down too many times. But I won’t let him get away with it – he’s a troll who likes to text me #lolKnicks articles, and I KNOW he’ll have something smart to say if the Dodgers take this series. He better pray the Yankees don’t sweep their asses.

  205. Z-man

    Such a moronic take.

    Now you’re getting personal. Obviously you have a weird fetish for Frank and will shout at the rain defending his sorry ass no matter how badly he plays. You have made one demonstrably moronic comparison after another after another in the desperate attempt to not look stupid defending this shitshow of a draft pick, and your incessant whining about how the Knicks FO and coach are not worthy of his greatness is about as idiotic as it gets here.

    But that’s ok. Funny thing is, I don’t really give a shit about whether we pick up his option or not. I hope he turns the corner, just like I hoped that Mudiay or Hezonja would turn the corner. I also don’t give a shit about your idiotic fanboy scenarios and whimperings, just like I didn’t give a shit about those of his ardent supporters in years 1 and 2 (some of whom have been gracious enough to admit the error of their ways, as I have on many occasions that I’ve been wrong.)

  206. The Infamous Cdiggy

    Speaking of Duke busts: would Christian Laettner fared a lot better if he played in today’s NBA vs the early 90s?

  207. Z-man

    Also fuck Chase Utley.

    Yeah, he’s in the pantheon of the most hated Mets opponents ever…right up there with guys like Clemens and Chipper.

  208. Z-man

    But what if he played for Duke? He could have won the superlative “most likely to win ROY” like every other Duke bust over the last five years.

    lol, how true

    Speaking of Duke busts: would Christian Laettner fared a lot better if he played in today’s NBA vs the early 90s?

    One would think so. But he was put on the Dream Team over Shaq, so there’s that…

  209. Z-man

    (and that shot he hit won me several hundred $ in our office bracket pool, so he’s good 4eva in my book.)

  210. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    One-way defensive players have gone the way of the dodo bird in the NBA.

    There’s a good case to be made that this year’s All-Defensive First Team would be a top-3 offense. Same with the second team.

    Giannis, George, Bledsoe, Smart (meh), Gobert

    Jrue, Klay, Kawhi, Draymond (meh), Embiid

  211. Bruno Almeida

    I don’t think Laettner was a bust, he wasn’t worthy of the hype but he was a pretty decent player for a long time. Obviously not what you want for a 3rd pick, but it was a weak draft outside of Shaq, Zo and Sprewell. He could maybe be a decent stretch 4 in today’s NBA.

  212. Z-man

    @238 that’s really the point here. Developing him is (rightfully) so low on the priority list that it doesn’t even merit serious conversation. Unless and until he comes up big in FIBA and preseason, he shouldn’t even be talked about.

  213. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    from YouTube’s highlights of the 8/19 game:

    I love this pick since back then jus watch he’ll be very good we need this young man

    That Argentina game was beautiful. You can see the confidence building throughout each game!

    His handle looks way tighter, his jumper looks smooth, he’s a true PG at 6”7 and he has elite defense. Plus he doesn’t turn the ball over. Give this kid to Pop and he will bring a chip to the spurs. 2 consecutive years went to the finals in Europe. He’s a proven winner in a sea full of losers.

    Won’t be traded, too valuable on defense. Moves the ball on offense, which was SORELY LACKING on last years team. We were at the bottom on team defense and assists. Defends multiple positions well.

    He isn’t flashy, people don’t get that. he picks his spots and is in control. he plays with in himself. people don’t get that. its vanilla not chocolate

    Another thing I haven’t seen any of these Flashy PGs win a chip yet. And if anyone say Kyrie, he wasn’t the PG Lebron was.

    Payton is not a great shooter either and I don’t see any one Trashing him and he has been in the league longer than Frank and DSj.

    If Frank gives us this consistently this season, he’ll start and we’ll go to he playoffs.

    It just bothers me how many people trash Frank for trying to make sure his teammates all eat first. He’s a pass first, setup offense and defensive player. Where is that wrong?

    You guys has to understand that this. Kid will play better with good players around him people need to give this kid a break as i mention in someone comments this kid luck down some of the biggest point guards in the NBA and some people want him to be traded is not all about speed its aboyt timing just put shoiters around him and you guys will see the difference.

  214. Name is Bron - James Bron

    The comparison to Dray, Bowen, and Artest was related to shooting. Frank shot 41% from 3 and 47% from 2 at Strasbourg. Aren’t you one of the people who keeps telling us how some European league is the 2nd strongest in the world after the NBA? And didn’t you earlier appeal to authority? OK, why were so many NBA organizations ready to draft Frank 8-10? And BTW no contender would trade for a raw Frank at this time so wondering why Morey isn’t interested in Frank is, well, MO#$%IC.

    Frank has shown nothing in the NBA, nothing.

    Finishing 1st (or 2nd) on PnR defense next to CP3 and Oladipo is nothing? Serious? In a PnR league? Where everything starts with the high PnR? Again this just illustrates your inability to properly evaluate the potential of certain types of players. Procedure: Go to BRef or WP, look at Calderon’s TS%, praise the trade. Procedure: Go to Bref, look at Frank’s TS%, tag him a bust.

    Regarding the “moronic take”, that had really nothing to do with Frank and I was being charitable there. How anyone in his right mind could justify playing Ellington over Trier/Dot/Zo/RJ at this stage is beyond me. I get that FO and Fiz might pursue wins at cost of development to try to save their jobs. I don’t get how any sane fan could justify it unless they’re hankering for a marginal win.

  215. The Infamous Cdiggy

    right up there with guys like Clemens and Chipper.

    *sigh* There’s just no defending Clemens when it came to throwing that bat head at Piazza. He put the Yankees and fans in a real tough spot trying to dance around that one for the sake of standing up for your teammate.

  216. The Ghost of Ted Nelson

    Making bad analogies is a big part of what we do here. BB was 31 for the earliest season you mentioned.

    If you took BB through his 29 year old season he sucked really hard on the offensive end

    1) Ntilikina would have to imrove a lot over the next few years just to suck as badly as Bruce Bowen did through his 29 year old season.

    2) Bowen played for 4 different teams before his 29 year old season because it is impossible to invest NBA dollars into a ten-year player development plan. Frank’s age is both a blessing and a curse in this regard. He has time to improve, but Bowen, entering the league at 25, was cheap, and Frank, entering at 19, is going to be really, really expensive. It would be terrible management to invest that in Ntilikina in the hopes he develops into Bruce Bowen(!)

    3) Bowen suddenly turned good at 29, when he played on a team with Tim Duncan, David Robinson, Tony Parker, Manu Ginolbi, and Greg Popovich. The Knicks simply don’t have those kinds of people on their team and probably never will. Those five people made a lot of players look really good, not just Bowen. Malik Rose’s first 8 years in the league (all with SA): .130 ws/48, 4.0 VORP; Malik Rose’s next 5 years (all with NY): -0.003 ws/48, -2 VORP. Hmm…

  217. swiftandabundant

    If we pick up Frank’s option this year he’s going to be “expensive” but does that really matter when we’re not competing for a championship and it would be the final year of his contract anyways? And going forward after this year, couldn’t we theoretically keep him for cheap? Is any team out there going to sign him for money equivalent to what he is making now? Isn’t it possible that he is a bad deal but could be a bargain after this season on a new, cheap contract especially if he does improve?

    I do love his defense. I think its game changing. And I love it because he isn’t just a good one on one defender, his defense, his length, the way he positions himself, etc…makes the entire team’s defense better. So I don’t want to give up on him although I never see him as a starter caliber player. But I just think he was drafted too young and too high. But once his rookie contract is finished, he could be resigned to a cheap deal, no? So why does it matter if he’s “overpaid” this year? Is he going to take away cap space from a potential superstar that’s going to demand a trade to us mid season?

  218. the don nelson era

    if you hold onto Frank through next year in the hopes of signing him cheaply, what terms make it worthwhile?

  219. Dink

    Reading some of the pre-draft assessments of Frank are hilarious in retrospect…

    Mike Schmitz, DraftExpress.com: Not as well-known among the casual fan as the college guards, Ntilikina is a high-floor prospect who is destined for, at the very least, a long career as a versatile, two-way player with a high IQ and professional approach to the game.

    Stefanos Makris, NBADraft.net: Ntilikina is undoubtedly one of the best international players of his generation. His elite physical tools and feel for the game, combined with his high upside makes him a really intriguing prospect

    High-floor, two-way player… Generational international prospect… Elite physical tools… LOL

    Thank you PJax

  220. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    If we pick up Frank’s option this year he’s going to be “expensive” but does that really matter when we’re not competing for a championship and it would be the final year of his contract anyways?

    no

    And going forward after this year, couldn’t we theoretically keep him for cheap?

    yes, but why

    Is any team out there going to sign him for money equivalent to what he is making now?

    no

    Isn’t it possible that he is a bad deal but could be a bargain after this season on a new, cheap contract especially if he does improve?

    Marcus Smart got a $52M deal

  221. d-mar

    Ok I promised myself I wouldn’t bring up politics on this site, but Trump’s tweets about China today are truly batshit crazy (and tanking the markets)

    “Our great American companies are hereby ordered to immediately start looking for an alternative to China”

    I mean, really, isn’t it time to send in the men with the white coats?

  222. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    Ok I promised myself I wouldn’t bring up politics on this site, but Trump’s tweets about China today are truly batshit crazy (and tanking the markets)

    I’m not going to touch it. If by now people don’t see a craven, lawless, TV-junkie narcissist in the early stages of dementia, they themselves need to see a neurologist.

  223. Ingmarrrr

    I mean, really, isn’t it time to send in the men with the white coats?

    Compared to another 250 comments thread on Frank’s projections maybe Trump is the sane one.

    More to the point on the off-topic, our prime minister’s wife just tried to burst into the cockpit on their flight to the Ukraine because the captain didn’t bless her in his announcement, then at the greeting ceremony tossed away a piece of bread considered holy to the Ukrainians because it’s a symbol of surviving a horrible famine.
    So please, when the men with the white coats finish up with Donald can they come after his good friend Bibi and his wife?

  224. Ntilakilla

    More proof that Antifa’s confrontational tactics are a gift to the Alt Right. Their defenders who argue against letting fascists march without pushback miss the point that hardcore fascists actually organize FOR the pushback. Why? Because in numerical terms they constitute <1% of the population. It's only by publicly confronting them that you give their lot the national presence they so desperately crave.

  225. Ntilakilla

    If by now people don’t see a craven, lawless, TV-junkie narcissist in the early stages of dementia, they themselves need to see a neurologist.

    Are we talking about Donald Trump, Joe Biden or both here?

  226. JK47

    “Our great American companies are hereby ordered to immediately start looking for an alternative to China”

    I’m sure this is all going to end very well

  227. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    Are we talking about Donald Trump, Joe Biden or both here?

    Which one of those men currently has the authority to order nuclear strikes?

  228. JK47

    Are we talking about Donald Trump, Joe Biden or both here?

    Your logical fallacy is:

    (opens envelope)

    False equivalence

  229. Donnie Walsh

    If we pick up Frank’s option this year he’s going to be “expensive” but does that really matter when we’re not competing for a championship and it would be the final year of his contract anyways? And going forward after this year, couldn’t we theoretically keep him for cheap?

    Theoretically, perhaps. But in the history of the association, has there ever been a case of a rookie having both of his options exercised only to then resign with the same team for significantly less than his rookie contract? I think this hasn’t happened because it’s not realistic.

    There are a lot of “what if’s” with Frank that almost all involve him doing things that no other NBA player before him has ever done. That seems like bad management to invest in such unlikely outcomes, but bad management is a big part of what we do here, so why stop now, right?

    There is a major problem with drafting 19 year olds and putting them on a 4 year plan which is that late bloomers are almost certainly going to bloom on somebody else’s roster. IF (biggest if ever) Frank eventually becomes a good basketball player, it will almost certainly be for another basketball team, which is why they’d be silly to sink anything further into his development in my opinion.

  230. Ntilakilla

    Which one of those men currently has the authority to order nuclear strikes?

    The real problem isn’t which one has the authority but that either one of them could come 2021 and there’s no realistic alternative.

  231. Ntilakilla

    Is there a more apt contrast of fascism vs. socialism than this?

    US-backed Brazilian fascist Bolsonaro is letting the Amazon rainforest — on which the entire planet relies for oxygen — burn.So Bolivia's socialist, anti-imperialist President Evo Morales ordered the world's largest air tanker to extinguish the fires.https://t.co/coOw61gSMf— Ben Norton (@BenjaminNorton) August 22, 2019

  232. Ntilakilla

    Ntilakilla is the Proud Boys of Knickerblogger

    JK47, take note here. ‘

    THIS is what a false equivalency looks like.

  233. Frank O.

    The Honorable Cock Jowles
    August 23, 2019 at 12:55 pm
    Ok I promised myself I wouldn’t bring up politics on this site, but Trump’s tweets about China today are truly batshit crazy (and tanking the markets)

    I’m not going to touch it. If by now people don’t see a craven, lawless, TV-junkie narcissist in the early stages of dementia, they themselves need to see a neurologist.

    PREACH!

  234. d-mar

    You did this, d-mar

    Haha, my apologies, let’s all get back to talking about Frank Ntilikina and “upside”

  235. JK47

    The real problem isn’t which one has the authority but that either one of them could come 2021 and there’s no realistic alternative.

    Bernie Sanders though, now there’s a guy who is not a doddering old man

  236. Ntilakilla

    Bernie Sanders though, now there’s a guy who is not a doddering old man

    Doddering? I dunno. But certainly not senile. Joe, on the other hand….well

  237. TheClashFan

    My wife likes both Biden AND Bernie. What do I make of that?
    :-)

    Actually, I think she likes anyone not named Trump…

  238. bobneptune

    hoops quote of the day from Jalen Rose:

    Rose likes the Knicks’ depth at each position and the warrior spirit of some of those signed — specifically Marcus Morris and Bobby Portis, whom Rose called candidates for his “All-Dark Alley Team.”

  239. Ntilakilla

    My wife likes both Biden AND Bernie. What do I make of that?

    She’s like most Dem voters right now, who have both as either #1 or #2 choice. But they are very different candidates when you actually evaluate their policy positions and pasts.

  240. Farfa

    Frank Ntilikina

    Pro:

    Defends well POA until switched

    Moves the ball

    Looks pretty unless he has frosted tips

    Cons:

    Has no discernible basketball skill related to putting the ball in the hoop

    If we renounce him Ras will probably change his nickname and I will get confused as to why KB has become again a (sometimes lousy) political arena

  241. Early Bird

    Re: Frank on Strasbourg

    Frank shot well his last year with Strasbourg (.431 from 3!), but with the significant caveat that he took only 66 3PA that year (he took over 100 as a rookie in the NBA). His numbers took a huge leap that year as his team went to the finals. Not to mention he was hot off winning the U18 tournament and MVP honors shooting a ridiculous 17/29 from 3. That’s why his draft position was that high. Still between the different tournaments Frank didn’t manage 100 3PA’s. Frank is a poster child for sample size matters.

    It reminds me of Derrick Williams a bit. Williams was a consensus top pick because he shot over 50% from 3pt on 74(!) total attempts as a sophomore. He shot 4 of 16 as a freshman. In the NBA, Williams’s career average sits right at .300. Again sample size matters, but if you don’t take the risk someone else will.

    I still think the Euroleague and other high level European leagues are generally better than the NCAA. That doesn’t mean every player who succeeds in Europe will succeed in the US. The games are different. Different rules, different strategies, and different levels of athleticism. Moreover it’s not clear to me that Frank would add value on offense in the Euroleagues.

  242. Early Bird

    FWIW, I watched some highlights of his with Strasbourg. He looked incredibly slow driving the ball as a guard. Add in the fact that he rarely drove for Strasbourg or even the U18 tournament despite being one of the older players. Despite winning MVP, he mostly stood at the top of the key and passed or shot threes from there. He rarely drove the ball. I never seriously considered him a pg prospect.

    All that said, I still thought he’d be a decent 3 and D wing.

  243. Brian Cronin Post author

    Lakers sign Howard. That always seemed to be the clear choice. They needed a traditional center and he was available for the minimum.

  244. Early Bird

    Howard is hard to pass up. If for no other reason, the Lakers obviously want Howard’s “star power” even with bad play, it’s LA.

    I think a Lebron/AD at the 4/5 would dominate the NBA, scrub wings and guards be damned. I think that duo might close games out there.

  245. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    BBALLBREAKDOWN: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CN8_TPMFyNE

    LeBron, Green, Kuzma, Davis and a healthy Howard (or McGee) would be a tremendous lineup. They have absolutely no depth and the list of potential problems is enormous:

    1) LeBron is old and could have become unable to replicate his 2017-18 playoff ridiculousness
    2) Davis is fragile as hell and might refuse to play where he’s most needed
    2b) if Davis goes down, LeCoast cannot happen
    3) Danny Green is not young either, could see his numbers slip in a big way
    4) Kuzma is overrated and will be near-useless if he can’t hit threes like he did as a rookie
    5) Dwight Howard is cancer even when he’s one of the best players in the world, so, uh… yeah

    If 2017-18 Dwight and LeBron show up, the Lakers will be really fucking good. But it’s 2019, so that seems unlikely.

  246. Brian Cronin Post author

    There was a great aspect of the story where Howard apparently had to meet with three members of the team who objected to the idea of the Lakers signing Howard. Those three Lakers? Davis, Rondo and McGee. Yes, Javale fucking McGee had to be convinced by Dwight Howard that Howard was up to the task. High-larious.

  247. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    Javale fucking McGee

    that’s Javale “Two-Time Fucking NBA Fucking Champ” McGee to you, Mr. Cronin

  248. Brian Cronin Post author

    Touche. When Javale McGee wants convincing, you better fucking convince Javale McGee that you’re worth the risk.

  249. thenoblefacehumper

    I mean if your best possible argument is “if we give it 10 years we might get Bruce Bowen,” you’re kinda giving away the game right?

    For the record, I’m pretty neutral on picking up Frank’s option. I probably lean slightly towards declining it, just because roster spots are legitimate opportunity costs and there are UDFAs, etc. with a better chance to be NBA rotation players than Frank Ntilikina. Overwhelming likelihood is that it’s a consequence free decision regardless, though.

  250. Donnie Walsh

    I mean if your best possible argument is “if we give it 10 years we might get Bruce Bowen,” you’re kinda giving away the game right?

    If by kind of, you mean most certainly, then yes.

    Frank Ntilikina through two seasons is basically Emanuel Mudiay, but without the barely noticeable 2nd season micro-improvement. And you can say “but his defense”, but they have the same DRating, and it isn’t very good.

    If you want to tell me that Frank should stay on the team because he does things on defense that don’t show up in the box score, that’s fine, but in turn tell you to get used to losing a lot of basketball games.

  251. Name is Bron - James Bron

    I mean if your best possible argument is “if we give it 10 years we might get Bruce Bowen,” you’re kinda giving away the game right?

    No, that’s not the takeaway. Here they are: (1) Bowen could hit 3’s and defend and do nothing else and still be a valuable piece on a contender (2) Bowen, Artest, Dray were poor outside shooters in their early years (when they were older than Frank) and then improved to level they needed to get to(3) Bowen (and Roberson) were still plus players even in years when they had about a 510 TS.

    You have to look at impact for certain types of players. Had many here realized Calderon was hopeless on defense, they wouldn’t have been fooled by his TS% when we acquired him. Frank, despite being putrid on offense except for his passing, has been a plus player every team he’s ever been on. I doubt that’s just noise. And having a guy who’s able to make life difficult for opposing 1’s or the opponent’s best wing scorer has greater value to a contending team than I think many are according here imo.

    The key differences between me and others is:
    (1) I value Frank’s potential contribution on defense on a future contender higher than most of you
    (2) I think his shooting %’s rate to improve enough (maybe a lot) given his shooting motion

    I acknowledge he’s got some key skills deficits which limit his ceiling: his lack of burst and handle. But I don’t think those will stand in the way of him being an impact player on a contender so long as his shooting percentages improve and he’s more aggressive driving to rim. Plenty of players who didn’t have burst could get to the rim. I think it’s part skill but also part mental in Frank’s case.

    Pick up his option. Put Payton, Frank, and Mitch are on the court together and let Frank guard the opposing 1. Remember that rookie starting lineup which had a positive net rating and Fiz abandoned and never played again?

  252. Z-man

    The key differences between me and others is:
    (1) I value Frank’s potential contribution on defense on a future contender higher than most of you
    (2) I think his shooting %’s rate to improve enough (maybe a lot) given his shooting motion

    (3) I’m an incredibly tedious and moronic Frank fanbois who doesn’t know shit about basketball

  253. JK47

    Jose Calderon was 33 when he came here and was past his prime. Yes, he sucked as a Knick. At his best he was a reasonably decent NBA player. At his best he shot the ball real well and dished out a shitload of assists, dude would regularly get 9+ assists per 36 in his good years. Playing in the last dying iteration of the triangle offense didn’t do him wonders, but neither did the fact that he was fucking old for a point guard.

    I know it might not seem like it, but throwing the ball into the basket is actually kind of an important part of the game. This is why Jose Calderon played 23,000 minutes in the NBA and Frank Ntilikina is probably going to be suiting up for Limoges in the not so distant future.

  254. Z-man

    Hey JK can u use me in ur band? I play an amazing D7 chord! I suck at everything else, but that chord is one of the most important chords! I’m in, right?

  255. The Infamous Cdiggy

    Man, how about Paxton tonight? 11Ks, 1 run in 6 innings, no walks.
    Just the game you need to break a 4-game slide.

  256. Name is Bron - James Bron

    I know it might not seem like it, but throwing the ball into the basket is actually kind of an important part of the game.

    Didn’t I just acknowledge that Frank’s shooting %’s (and FTr which is related) need to improve? Your argument is that it won’t improve to where he’s ever playable. I’m much less sure (and TBH less arrogant) about that. The question is by how much. I gave you examples of Bowen and Roberson still being plus players (sometimes by a large margin) in years when they had 510 TS. The bar might be not be that high depending on his impact on defense.

    but neither did the fact that he was fucking old for a point guard.

    Yes he went from a lousy defender in his prime to an old guy who was unplayable on defense. Yet people here were citing his glowing TS% when we acquired him. And now many of the same people are writing 21yo Frank off because of his TS%. AGAIN: The gist is that players who are on the extremes in terms of defense have to be evaluated in a different manner.

    You would trade him for a 2nd round pick. I think the cost/benefit calculus favors picking up the option. Let him play in the G League for 3 months to give him a chance to improve his shooting. I don’t care if puts up low counting stats in the G League because he’s not gonna be a scorer in the NBA. In the meantime give Dotson and Trier a chance to show if either is a keeper.

    When he plays for Knicks, coaching staff has to define his role and play to his strengths. A lineup like Payton/Frank/Morris/Randle/Mitch makes some sense to me. Payton’s weak on defense but we need his playmaking so you have Frank guard the opposing 1. I’m not sanguine that our coaching staff is at all creative or even competent in this regard. Maybe Miller will be our Nurse.

  257. JK47

    No more Bruce Bowen comments. Seriously.

    Bruce Bowen’s heyday in the NBA was almost 20 years ago. His last game in the NBA was 10 years ago. Let’s pick a random year from Bruce Bowen’s prime: let’s say 2003-2004, one of his better years. The league average TS% that year was .516. Bruce Bowen was playable with his .512 TS% that year because it was pretty much league average. League average TS% last year was .560, do you think Frank is ever getting anywhere near sniffing distance of that?

    But the point is, that was 15 years ago. The game that Bruce Bowen was playing no longer exists. As I said before, league average TS% last year was .560, and defensive strategies have changed a lot as we’re in the era of positionless basketball and teams that look to do lots of switching on defense. Bruce Bowen type players are practically extinct. There’s what, like one left? Andre Roberson? Who is pretty much like Michael Jordan offensively compared to Frank. Roberson has managed a .500 eFG% or better, usually far better, because he can actually dunk the ball 50-60 times a year and make an occasional layup or bunny. Frank is terrified of the ball so he has 8 dunks in 2600 minutes.

    You’re making terrible arguments here.

  258. Name is Bron - James Bron

    The game that Bruce Bowen was playing no longer exists….defensive strategies have changed a lot as we’re in the era of positionless basketball and teams that look to do lots of switching on defense.

    I’ll keep it simple:
    (1) The high PnR is the staple play in the modern NBA
    (2) Frank proved himself an elite defender of the high PnR per Synergy stats in his 1st season

    Conclusion: his defensive impact rates to be important in TODAY’s NBA

    And I mentioned this before but you want to avoid switching on PnR because it places Mitch on the perimeter and negates his shot blocking prowess.

    Now take your head out of the box score stats and start thinking BBall. Start focusing on how certain players with certain skills might impact the game.

  259. JK47

    Now take your head out of the box score stats and start thinking BBall. Start focusing on how certain players with certain skills might impact the game.

    And what happens on the other end, when the other team has five defenders to guard your four offensive players plus the guy who is terrified of the basketball? That doesn’t show up in the boxscore either.

    I really kind of can’t believe this discussion is a thing, but then again I’ve had people on this blog tell me that I’m unqualified to talk about basketball because I just can’t see the value Andrea Bargnani brings to an NBA team. Yes, that actually happened. So I’m used to this.

  260. JK47

    Hey JK can u use me in ur band? I play an amazing D7 chord! I suck at everything else, but that chord is one of the most important chords! I’m in, right?

    A dad takes his kid in for bass lessons.

    First week of the lessons, dad asks the kid, “Hey, how did the bass lesson go?”
    “Great, Dad. We learned the E string.”
    “Wow, that’s great, son.”

    Second week of the lessons, dad asks the kid, “How did bass lessons go this week?
    “Great, Dad. We learned the A string.”
    “Wow, that’s great, son.”

    Third week, dad asks about the lessons again. “How was the bass lesson this week, son?”
    “Oh, I couldn’t go. I had a gig.”

  261. bobneptune

    Bruce Bowen’s heyday in the NBA was almost 20 years ago. His last game in the NBA was 10 years ago. Let’s pick a random year from Bruce Bowen’s prime: let’s say 2003-2004, one of his better years. The league average TS% that year was .516. Bruce Bowen was playable with his .512 TS% that year because it was pretty much league average. League average TS% last year was .560, do you think Frank is ever getting anywhere near sniffing distance of that?

    After playing 2600 NBA minutes at the age of 28 BB shot at an amazing .377 TS% over 42 games. Im guessing that was below league average, too.

    Did you think BB was going to shoot “league average” soon after that??? And bag a gaggle of ringzzz?

    Some turrble arguments are being made here!!!

  262. Donnie Walsh

    Hey JK can u use me in ur band? I play an amazing D7 chord! I suck at everything else, but that chord is one of the most important chords! I’m in, right?

    How old are you, and is your body NBA ready? That’s all that matters, the other chords will just sorta form themselves and the band will rock.

  263. Bo Nateman

    A semi-relevant question for Z-Man with respect to NYS testing data ( scores are in)
    Do you evaluate individual teacher performance with the equivalent of WAR(PAR=Proficient over Replacement)? I would imagine that you could use HEDI scores to create a replacement mean. Do you compare teachers within a grade band at your school to others in your school in that grade, in your district, the City, and/or the state? Just curious.
    Apologies to other KBers, but I’ve always been an education data freak and do not have access to others with any level of sophistication in this area.
    ( gutsy move bring Diaz in. If he’s back on track that is good news)

  264. Z-man

    A semi-relevant question for Z-Man with respect to NYS testing data ( scores are in)
    Do you evaluate individual teacher performance with the equivalent of WAR(PAR=Proficient over Replacement)? I would imagine that you could use HEDI scores to create a replacement mean. Do you compare teachers within a grade band at your school to others in your school in that grade, in your district, the City, and/or the state? Just curious.
    Apologies to other KBers, but I’ve always been an education data freak and do not have access to others with any level of sophistication in this area.

    I actually do an in-house analysis where for each teacher of ELA and math I compare a) each of their student’s test score gain/loss compared to last year’s and b) the grade each student received in the teacher’s class vs, their test score.

    (b) is important because if both the course and the test are aligned to the same set of standards, there should be some correlation. When I notice a lack of correlation, I bring it up with individual teachers as necessary.

    I don’t put a lot of stock in citywide or statewide comparisons. My school is sort of a niche school that has very few “peer” schools, and I look at those schools and make some superficial comparisons.

    I’m also not a big believer in the HEDI system as it currently exists to the degree that it incorporates test scores, as the MoSL component is unconscionably stupid and meaningless. It tends to bump teachers I would rate “developing” into “effective” and makes it harder for me to pressure them to improve. The MoTP component, however, is based on direct observation and is therefore very valuable and telling.

  265. JK47

    After playing 2600 NBA minutes at the age of 28 BB shot at an amazing .377 TS% over 42 games. Im guessing that was below league average, too.

    I like how you throw out “42 games” as the reference instead of “311 minutes,” which is how many minutes Bowen played for Philly that year. Oh, and it actually turns out he didn’t shoot .377 for the year, he was traded midyear, and had a .509 TS% in 567 minutes for Miami, giving him a .460 TS% for the year. Which still sucks! But was 50 points within league average.

    Good try though!

  266. Knew Your Nicks

    How did Usa lost by Australia ?
    The stats were all in favor of USA….
    There has to be a mistake….

  267. bobneptune

    I like how you throw out “42 games” as the reference instead of “311 minutes,” which is how many minutes Bowen played for Philly that year.

    Not at all…. I used it to show that at 28 years of age and with over 2600 minutes logged in the NBA he got chances (42 of them) that season but sucked so badly on offense he couldn’t earn extended playing time.

    Then a miracle happened….. he markedly improved on the offensive end. It actually does happen sometimes….. and I’m guessing it is more likely with a 21 yr old than a 28 yr old. But thanks for emphasizing my point for me, though……

  268. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    How did Usa lost by Australia ?

    I’m not sure that a team starting Donovan Mitchell, Harrison Barnes, Myles Turner, Khris Middleton and Marcus Smart would make the playoffs in the NBA.

  269. Knew Your Nicks

    What do you say about a team starting Jock Landale, Aron Baynes, Joe Ingles, Mat Dellavedova and Patty “AIR” Mills ?
    Would they made the G-League playoffs ?

  270. Brian Cronin Post author

    It actually does happen sometimes

    That’s my concern with the Bowen example, though, honestly, it’s such an outlier that it’s practically useless as an example. Yes, there once was a guy who wasn’t good enough to play more than a single NBA minute (and that’s literally all he played in his first NBA season, a single minute) by the time he turned 26 and who reinvented his game and became relevant (and thus a good player) at the age of 28. But if you’re using that as an actual comparison example for any other NBA player, what’s the point? Frank could suck for the next FOUR seasons and the Bowen example, if relevant, could still be relevant, since, hey, yeah, Frank might have sucked for six seasons, but Bowen wasn’t even good enough to be in the NBA during those years, so who knows? Like Kevin Garnett said, anything is possible! If anything is possible, though, then what’s the point? “He’s sucked for six years, but hey, Bruce Bowen turned his career around at 28, so you can’t rule out that happening to Frank/Player X/Player X/Player Z!” Yeah, I guess you can’t literally rule it out as a possibility, but it isn’t much of a debate point to essentially shrug your shoulders and say, “Hey, there was one guy who did it, so therefore you can’t discount it from happening!”

  271. JK47

    Then a miracle happened….. he markedly improved on the offensive end. It actually does happen sometimes….

    Great, well you have demolished that straw man, and refuted the argument I never tried to make, which is apparently “players can never improve.”

    Score another internet win for bobneptune. That straw man never had a chance, he’s laying in the alley with blood coming out of his ears.

  272. d-mar

    Joe Ingles is good as hell

    Yeah, no shit, that guy has to be tops on the list of the most underrated/overlooked players in the NBA. Career TS% of .589, sort of like Kyle Korver in his prime.

  273. Stratomatic: Sometimes referred to as Satan

    Frank had another very good game. I didn’t see the minutes or shot attempts but was told he shot very well.

    10 pts
    3 rebs
    2 assists
    3 stls
    1 blk

  274. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    Yeah, no shit, that guy has to be tops on the list of the most underrated/overlooked players in the NBA. Career TS% of .589, sort of like Kyle Korver in his prime.

    Ingles is one of those guys who just “gets it” like Draymond. I think his athleticism is underrated — he has excellent extension on his finger rolls, a strong first step and downhill speed, not to mention the great shooting. Ingles’ highlights remind of Larry Bird’s a LOT. He would have been a multiple champion if he had been taken by the Warriors.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvJo2SJiz-4

  275. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    I’m also not a big believer in the HEDI system as it currently exists to the degree that it incorporates test scores, as the MoSL component is unconscionably stupid and meaningless. It tends to bump teachers I would rate “developing” into “effective” and makes it harder for me to pressure them to improve. The MoTP component, however, is based on direct observation and is therefore very valuable and telling.

    Finally, finally we get some expert-level analysis out of Z-man. After ten years of reading his posts, better late than never!

    ; )

  276. Name is Bron - James Bron

    Finally, finally we get some expert-level analysis out of Z-man. After ten years of reading his posts, better late than never!

    Not true, in this very thread he alerted us to the work of Ellington…oh wait I forgot he was talking about Wayne not Duke.

  277. Dink

    Frank had another very good game. I didn’t see the minutes or shot attempts but was told he shot very well.

    If Frank can play this well against New Zealand just imagine how great he’ll be in the NBL. Gonna be a superb glue guy for the 2021 Brisbane Bullets.

  278. Henry George

    Frank’s game recap/line from yesterday’s game against New Zealand (compliments of Google Translate):

    Player: Frank Ntilikina
    The French leader is also gaining momentum. Invisible early in preparation, the NBA leader of the New York Knicks is showing more and more confidence (12 points, 5 rebounds, 3 steals). He was particularly good in the last minutes when New Zealand pushed.

  279. Henry George

    I think Frank’s gonna do just fine, both at the FIBA WC as well as this season. In fact, I think all 3 point guards (Payton and DSJr) are going to step up and create an embarassment of riches this season.

  280. Knew Your Nicks

    When Socrates believes that after death there’s either an afterlife or an eternal sleep without suffering why shall i be pesimistic about Frank ?
    Frank’s gonna kick ass !
    Or sleep on the bench.

  281. Knew Your Nicks

    Seriously now i think that Frank should bang a few chicks, man up and bring his A game.
    I know he’s got game but he’s just too shy to let it flow.
    Some hours of sex a few legal ‘drugs’ and some nasty rock n roll will wake his beastie mode and he’ll never be the same !
    #seriously#

  282. Name is Bron - James Bron

    Now this is a depressing turn of events. Here I was in a state of euphoria watching Frank execute a vicious crossover against New Zealand when I tab to KB and find Henry George’s comment. I have a foolproof heuristic: whenever Henry George or M Bunge agrees with me the probability of my being wrong rises to 90% (it was at 55% before). I just have to pray that M Bunge doesn’t check in to support Frank. You don’t want to know the probability when both HG and M Bunge agree. To give you an idea, it soars to a level even higher than that of Z-Man making another moronic comment on this thread. [Z-Man… I kid, you know this is all benign snark, right?]

  283. Knew Your Nicks

    I read in here about Frank’s handles and drives that they both suck and almost the same about RJBarrett.
    Tbh i really like their handles and their drives despite the fact that they lack explosiveness and speed.
    They may not be Kyries or Stephs but i see quality steady handling & dribbling and drives with pretty good rhythm & body control.

  284. d-mar

    Oh god can we please change subjects please.

    Ok, but to be frank, my favorite food is a juicy Nathan’s frank. Oh and my favorite book is the Diary of Anne Frank, my favorite currency is the old French franc and my favorite song is Frank-enstein by Edgar Winter.

  285. Z-man

    Bron, the most moronic thing at all is that we essentially agree. You’re just a bit late to the party and way over the top with illogically optimistic comparisons. I have said over and over again since draft time that Frank has the potential to be an impactful 3-and-D wing at some point (and now get ribbed sometimes for being on the optimistic side of the ledger!) but that he will never, ever be a PG in the NBA. The question is when, to what degree, and at what cost? The naysayers are correct in that he is so far removed from winning playability right now that there is no cause for anything but Hail Mary-level optimism about Frank in the short run. But as I have said, if he shows any growth in FIBA and preseason, keep him around. If he continues to suck (which he has done for the past) then let some other team have the pleasure of tying up cap space while waiting for him to become a rotation player.

  286. Z-man

    Finally, finally we get some expert-level analysis out of Z-man. After ten years of reading his posts, better late than never!

    ; )

    lol

  287. Z-man

    Finally, finally we get some expert-level analysis out of Z-man. After ten years of reading his posts, better late than never!

    Does that make me the Bruce Bowen of Knickerblogger?

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