Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Monday, October 15, 2018

ESPN.com: Sources: Knicks dismiss Jeff Hornacek; candidates include David Fizdale, David Blatt, Mark Jackson

From Woj:

The New York Knicks dismissed coach Jeff Hornacek early Thursday morning, league sources told ESPN.

Knicks president Steve Mills and general manager Scott Perry informed Hornacek of his firing upon the team’s return to suburban New York following a flight back from Cleveland, where the Knicks beat the Cavaliers 110-98.

Hornacek had one year left on his contract. Kurt Rambis, associate head coach under Hornacek, was also dismissed.

Talk about burying the lede! Our long national nightmare of Kurt Rambis is finally over!!

Seriously, though, as pumped as I am to finally be free of Rambis, it is sad to see Hornacek go. Not because I liked him all that much as a coach, but because I seriously fear the unknown with this franchise. The bird in the hand with the Knicks is sadly often your best bet.

This is the chance, though, for Scott Perry to impress us all by not hiring Mark Jackson.

They’re hiring Mark Jackson, aren’t they?

167 comments on “ESPN.com: Sources: Knicks dismiss Jeff Hornacek; candidates include David Fizdale, David Blatt, Mark Jackson

  1. Totes McGoats as Totes McGoats

    Wow.
    Just..wow.
    Not surprised by the move. Just surprised how soon they did it. We may actually have a functional front office folks! I believe there was a sentiment on yesterday’s thread about not really caring about a couple bad moves if you’re also making a few good moves- or something similar. Well..this is another good move for Perry. It’s moot, of course, if he hires the wrong HC. But for now, it’s kinda got me excited about the prospects of his next moves. Hopefully this really is the beginning of a stretch of good moves during this rebuild phase

  2. Zanzibar

    We are beginning our final descent into NY’s LaGuardia Airport. On a personal note, the crew would like to thank the NYK for the opportunity to have served all of you this past year. We remind you at this time that you should close your seat trays and return your seatbacks to the upright position. The washrooms will be closed for the duration of our flight. The flight attendants will be by one last time to collect any garbage that may have accumulated during our flight. Oh and Mr Hornacek, you’ve been fired.

    Swift cold blooded execution of Hornacek. Mills wasted no time in changing the subject from a dismal season to speculation on a new coach. Selecting MJ would send the terrible message that this whole culture change is just so much BS.

    I’m happy Nets lost and Knicks won. First, Burke, Frank, Kornet, and Dot all played decent. But more important is that Cavs will pick Trae Young. Our future is Frank at the 1 and I don’t want anything to derail that at such an early stage. Plus I don’t want Porter.

    I hope Mikal will be available at #9 but who knows. Carter looks more and more like a 5 to me so I’d prefer Mikal and re-sign KOQ. Why take a player like Carter or Bamba if KP rates to be playing a lot at the 5? Frank and Burke are the 1’s, Timmy/Mikal/Dot/Troy/Baker are the wings, KP/KOQ/Kornet are the 4/5’s and the possibility exists that Troy could play the 4 as well providing a different look. That’s a very young and decent rotation; if our young players improve and we sign a quality free agent(s) in 2019, our future is fine. And I hope we don’t have to watch Lance, Courtney, Walking Bucket, Mudiay, and Kanter taking minutes from our youth core.

  3. lavor postell

    He hasn’t been listed as a candidate but my top choice would be Chris Finch. I dont like Mark Jackson at all. I do like the rumored interest in Jerry Stackhouse alot. I also believe that at the very least Westchester’s coach, Mike Miller, deserves an interview.

  4. Frank

    Re: last night’s games- this is just expected stuff as a Knicks fan. Of course the Cavs and Lebron tank the last game of the season so our pick is worse. Of course the Celtics and Nets conspire to make our pick worse.

    Re: the coach – for better or for worse, I think it’s highly likely we’re going to hire a black coach.

    I’m down with these guys (in no particular order):
    – Doc Rivers if it doesn’t cost anything (it will cost something) – a disaster as a GM but has gotten pretty darn good results as a coach. I do wonder a bit whether he is the right guy for this FO given his very high profile and how green our FO really is– do they want someone who might be eyeing their jobs and may think he knows better than them?

    – David Fizdale – everyone loves him. Modernized Memphis’s prehistoric offense. The whole Gasol thing makes me a little nervous though — in that coaches in this league have to be on the same page with their star players, though so that it doesn’t spill over into the media etc.

    – Monty Williams – he is a very interesting guy to me. Ex-Knick FWIW. Well-respected by all accounts in the coaching community. VP of BBall ops for the Spurs and had his first coaching job with the Spurs after he played with the Spurs – have to figure Pop saw something there, which was confirmed when he was a pretty good HC with the Pels. Tragic / inspirational personal story which might appeal to the new holistic player development philosophy being promoted by Mills/Perry/Robinson. I’d be super down with Monty.

    – Stackhouse, although I think that might make our own G-league 2017-18 coach of the year deservedly upset. Great article on Stackhouse here, by the way. This would be fine with me.

    -If not one of these black coaches, I’ll keep banging the drum for JVG. Nick Nurse too.

    No Mark Jackson.

  5. Totes McGoats as Totes McGoats

    We are beginning our final descent into NY’s LaGuardia Airport. On a personal note, the crew would like to thank the NYK for the opportunity to have served all of you this past year. We remind you at this time that you should close your seat trays and return your seatbacks to the upright position. The washrooms will be closed for the duration of our flight. The flight attendants will be by one last time to collect any garbage that may have accumulated during our flight. Oh and Mr Hornacek, you’ve been fired

    This.
    All ah dis!
    LOL

  6. Frank

    I absolutely love the timing of the news.

    Overall nice job by Perry and Mills. No need to let Hornacek swing in the wind, and now that he’s out, the exit interviews can proceed without that awkwardness.

  7. Ingmarrrr

    I still can’t believe the fucking idiots won the game last night

    what could you do differently to lose it?

  8. Zanzibar

    Overall nice job by Perry and Mills. No need to let Hornacek swing in the wind, and now that he’s out, the exit interviews can proceed without that awkwardness.

    Uh..No. They should have extended him the courtesy of meeting at the MSG offices this morning or afternoon. They just didn’t want the headline to be how Knicks lost a draft slot by winning a meaningless game. Hornacek was a terrible coach but he was here for 2 years in difficult circumstances and deserved better treatment on his way out.

  9. Hubert

    Well..this is another good move for Perry.

    Is it?

    I’m thinking of the late Philip Seymour Hoffman’s wonderful fable at the end of Charlie Wilson’s War.

    A boy is given a horse on his 14th birthday. Everyone in the village says, “Oh how wonderful.” But a Zen master who lives in the village says, “We’ll see.” ‘The boy falls off the horse and breaks his foot. Everyone in the village says, “Oh how awful.” The Zen master says, “We’ll see.” The village is thrown into war and all the young men have to go to war. But, because of the broken foot, the boy stays behind. Everyone says, “Oh, how wonderful.” The Zen master says, “We’ll see.”

  10. Frank

    overall I kinda think the Knicks will end up picking someone with real experience. It’s nice and all to hire an up and comer but the Knicks can’t take the chance that a newbie just can’t cut it as an NBA head coach, especially in the NYC cauldron. This next coach has to be with the Knicks for 5+ years at least, have the gravitas to command the locker room, have enough standing with the FO to have 2018-19 truly be a developmental year, and have enough clout to really attract FAs in the summer of 19 and 20.

    Notable that @jsports_ent (who seems to have good sources within NYK) thinks Mark Jackson is a favorite, and that Ian Begley listed Jackson first and JVG second in a new ESPNNY article this AM.

    God would I prefer the 2nd one over the 1st one.

  11. Frank

    Uh..No. They should have extended him the courtesy of meeting at the MSG offices this morning or afternoon. They just didn’t want the headline to be how Knicks lost a draft slot by winning a meaningless game. Hornacek was a terrible coach but he was here for 2 years in difficult circumstances and deserved better treatment on his way out.

    what would be the point of that?
    Would you rather be broken up with in daylight hours tomorrow or would you rather just know?
    I’d rather just know.

    I don’t know that Perry is worried about the headlines. He’s been very under the radar the whole year and has kept most things off the back pages.

  12. Hubert

    I’m not giving our FO any credit for this. If Perry and Mills had already made up their minds, it would have been better to fire him a month ago and let Rambis drive the tank.

  13. Farfa

    If you ask me what’s the most depressing thing about last night’s match is not that we won. Is that fucking play where Frank was alone on an island and missed a point-blank layup, then got his own rebound and finally scored. I mean, those things happen even to the best, but it looked like it was happening at the speed you usually see in YMCAs when 50-ish year old bankers are playing. It really was disheartening, I wanted him to devour the fucking rim but no, he’s too polite/slow.

  14. Frank

    I’m not giving our FO any credit for this. If Perry and Mills had already made up their minds, it would have been better to fire him a month ago and let Rambis drive the tank.

    how often do you see coaches fired with a month left in the season on a tanking team? basically never. if you want to completely dishearten your team, a good way to do it is by letting Kurt Freaking Rambis be the interim head coach again.

    I think Perry really wants this god-forsaken franchise to be a normal franchise again. That means we do normal franchise things. Firing a coach with a month left in a lost season to give interim duties to a lame duck coaching staff is not a normal thing to do.

  15. Hubert

    if you want to completely dishearten your team, a good way to do it is by letting Kurt Freaking Rambis be the interim head coach again.

    Exactly.

    We could have picked 6th and had some disheartened players. Instead we kept them happy and we’re picking 9th. I’m not going to applaud Mills and Perry for this.

  16. Hubert

    The Bulls had to have been disheartened every time their best players sat. The Mavs had to have been disheartened when their starters got pulled down the stretch with a ten point lead. How disheartened was Philadelphia during The Process? None of those teams did “normal” things, and they’re better off for it.

    Smart teams have a plan and they communicate it to the coaches and players. Sometimes the players don’t like it. It doesn’t make you a bad franchise if players are disheartened down the stretch of a dismal season.

  17. ptmilo

    we’ve won a single playoff series in 18 years and just went through a season where where our best hope blew out his ACL, our most recent four year $72 million white elephant played like a solid backup, our next most recent $72 million white elephant was sent into exile, we let our only tradable vet assets fade into free agency and probable worthlessness, we were essentially eliminated from the playoffs in January yet landed the coveted 9th lottery slot, and our number one coaching candidate appears to be mark hand down man down jackson…but yeah we really nailed the timing on firing hornacek.

  18. DRed

    what could you do differently to lose it?

    Tell the team to lose. Nobody plays any defense, don’t play the teams best PG 42 minutes, it’s not rocket science

  19. bidiong

    If KP only went down on day one of the season it would have been different. We could’ve been a lottery contender!

  20. hoolahoop

    Really? The problem was Hornicek? He wasn’t perfect, but look at the roster.
    Upheaval. That’a a big part of what we do around here.

    “We’ll see”.

  21. Stratomatic "Porzingis, Ntilikina, and Bridges will take us to the promised land"

    This could mean Noah is back in play to be the backup C and it’s less likely they re-sign O’Quinn. That’s not a prediction. It’s just a higher probability outcome than with Hornacek coaching.

  22. Frank

    The Bulls had to have been disheartened every time their best players sat. The Mavs had to have been disheartened when their starters got pulled down the stretch with a ten point lead. How disheartened was Philadelphia during The Process? None of those teams did “normal” things, and they’re better off for it.

    We went down the stretch last night with Luke Kornet and Isiah Hicks leading the way. That’s basically the same thing as the Bulls and Mavs did which is give the young guys an opportunity to play a lot, with winning coming about 94th in the list of priorities.

    It’s one thing to “take a step back to take 2 steps forward”, which is basically what Philly did. Philly drafted guys who were undervalued because of injuries or because they weren’t planning on coming over from Europe. They prioritized good contracts and young players and draft picks over wins. They talked incessantly about the Process.

    It’s a whole other thing to treat people with disrespect, to make them miserable on purpose. Hoiberg wasn’t fired by the Bulls. Carlisle is as secure as they come. Brett Brown was allowed to preside over all the tanking. That gives you the sense that there is a larger plan. If you fire Hornacek and let Rambis run the joint, all it tells the team is that you don’t even remotely care about them. I mean why not just hire THCJ to coach the team? Why bother having a coach at all? That would make them REALLY miserable, right? They’d totally lose then.

  23. Stratomatic "Porzingis, Ntilikina, and Bridges will take us to the promised land"

    I don’t know what to think of Hornacek because I don’t know how much was his own assessment of our players and how much was management influence.

    If you are starting Mudiay you are clueless, but he’s not the one that was dumb enough to trade for him. He may have been told to play him.

    If you think Kanter is a better all around player than O’Quinn and you are serious about stressing defense like you say you are, you don’t know what you are doing playing Kanter. But it was Perry that brought Kanter in and management may have wanted to give off the perception that they good a good return in the Melo deal (even though we all wanted to get rid of Melo anyway).

    To me this is a non event. Hornacek was not good or bad enough to matter much. What really matters is our management. We already know Mills is incompetent and should be nowhere near a NBA team. The evidence on Perry is mixed, but given that Mills hired him I vote guilty until proven innocent (not that he hasn’t started proving it on his own).

    IMO our next coach should be someone that’s considered a high IQ guy. The game is changing. Everything is data, stats, metrics etc.. We need someone that understands all the new information out there, embraces it, and uses it effectively. I’m not sure I see anyone like that on the list but some would be worse than others.

  24. Owen

    I think PTMilo, once again, summarized things quite neatly.

    Hornacek getting fired means only one thing. Mark Jackson is that much closer to becoming the coach of the Knicks. This is something I have been afraid of for a long long time. I don’t know how I will deal with it when it happens but 2018-20 might be the perfect time for a Knicks sabbatical.

  25. Stratomatic "Porzingis, Ntilikina, and Bridges will take us to the promised land"

    I still think it’s going to be Blatt bc of the Mills-Princeton connection.

    I read an article this morning (forget who) that said that Perry may not be in favor of that.

    My personal preference is Jeff Van Gundy. I think he’s the best coach, best at talent evaluation, stresses defense, and is sharp with numbers. I just don’t see it happening with this management team.

  26. Scorpio Dragon

    With JVG, isn’t there still the Dolan factor? I mean, Dolan might say he’s hands off, but with the way JVG left the Knicks in the beginning of the season, I can see how Dolan might view that as disloyal. I wouldn’t hold out hope that Van Gundy would be hired is all I’m saying.

  27. alsep73

    Honestly, Jackson might be the line in the sand for me. Which is a stupid thing to say given that I stuck it out through Layden and Isiah’s many franchise-crippling trades, the sexual harassment trial, the mostly ugly Melo era, Bargnani, D-Rose, Phil, etc., etc., etc. But hiring Jackson would signal that we’re years and at least another regime change away from even approaching basic competence — on top of Jackson being a fairly detestable human — and at a certain point, my emotional life is better spent on other things.

  28. Frank

    I read somewhere along the way that the Dolan / JVG feud has been overstated.

    I strongly vote for JVG because we already know that that guy is a smart and detail-oriented coach who can go up against the very best coaches and hold his own in terms of tactics. The way the game is played has changed, but having that ability to think on the spot and make adjustments probably doesn’t go away. A complaint I hear about JVG on twitter is that he’s been away from the game too long, but I don’t buy that for a second. That dude lives and breathes basketball, has seen/called/analyzed every team through the years for his job at NBC, and just recently refreshed his coaching chops in taking a bunch of D-leaguers to the FIBA Americup championship.

    he’s got the ties to NY. we know he’s a great coach. he has real marketability given that all the players in the league pretty much grew up watching and listening to him be smart on ABC.

    Blatt probably has that distinction too, in terms of being able to go head-to-head against great coaches, if all the reports of his coaching genius from overseas is true.

    The others — who knows.

  29. bockadoo

    Would love JVG. If not, how ‘bout Tom Izzo? Controversy going on at MSU. Maybe he’s done with all that. We’re gonna be young for a couple years anyway. That dude can coach.

  30. wetbandit

    We can know within a couple of months is the Perry/Mills connection has any redeeming qualities:

    1. Draft best player available with highest ‘ceiling’. We don’t have anyone 1-5 who is a great healthy talent.

    2. Hire a smart coach. Experienced/inexperienced. JVG, Blatt, a Popovich man or Nurse. Tell the coach we are not winning many games this year, and that is the point– also, your job is safer if you do lose.

    3. Fix the rotation. Stick to a vision: tank or win? If that disgusts you, then think of it as develop or win-now? The answer is clear. No in betweens. That’s why you end up with the 8th/9th pick while sucking.
    A. They have 10 players under contract next year, not including O’Quinn and Kanter’s player options (Ron is so staying). Beasley is going to ask for more, and he should, but he has no place here. The roster should be Burke/Frank/Tim/KP/Kanter, with O’Quinn, Mudiay, Dotson, Troy, Kornet, Hicks, and one-year contracts on flyer youth. Noah doesn’t count, give him minutes, let him teach KP, whatever.
    B. Try to find suitors for Lee and Lance. Try to get Kanter out. Lee especially can cost us losses next year by being so average/competent.

    4. Again, add rotation pieces that matter long-term. No more of this Lee, Sessions, Jack business.

    5. Again, stick to a vision: what are you trying to do this season? Switching mid-season year after year is fucking stupid, and the opportunity cost of better picks is huge.

  31. wetbandit

    No, you build a losing/developing roster, and you tell the coach. Players play for their jobs anyway.

  32. Dough Chew [IT'S A NEW DAY YES IT IS]

    Rumor has it the Knicks have contacted Villanova’s Jay Wright for the HC position.

  33. Hubert

    We went down the stretch last night with Luke Kornet and Isiah Hicks leading the way. That’s basically the same thing as the Bulls and Mavs did which is give the young guys an opportunity to play a lot, with winning coming about 94th in the list of priorities.

    It’s not the same thing. Luke Kornet is a guy we actually like. He’s not great, but he’s decent. And he went off last night in a game in which (except for Lee) all our best players played, and played hard. Dallas or Memphis or Chicago would have pulled him out of the game after his 2nd 3 pointer swished.

    The Bulls benched all healthy veterans who might help them win. They also benched or limited the minutes of the young players they like. They went out and acquired bad players who would help them lose games, and they gave them a ton of minutes. You think Kurt Rambis would be disheartening? How must it feel to be good, to practice, to work hard, but to watch guys named Nwaba, Felicio, Payne, and Kilpatrick play 30 minutes a night while you’re glued to the bench?

    The Bulls did the right thing, though. And I just can’t give this FO credit for trying to “normalize” this franchise. Tanking is normal. Trying to win meaningless games to make people feel better is what makes us a god-forsaken franchise every year. If they really wanted to normalize things around here, they would have disheartened everyone instead of caring about their level of enthusiasm.

    Penalize the Bulls? Penalize the Knicks FO for knowing the incentives and going the other way!

  34. Hubert

    I mean why not just hire THCJ to coach the team?

    I actually have him ranked higher than several of the candidates reportedly in the mix. But DRed is my GM, and I support whatever choice he makes.

  35. wetbandit

    The NYTimes has a funny piece today on how some ‘experts’ would fix the Knicks:

    Clyde: “No matter what pieces they add, they need to play defense. They are a very bad defensive team. We see that now. My two rings (he says, holding up his two diamond-studded championship rings) are symbolic of defense, man. ”

    Podcaster Stefan Marolachakis: “Sorry, James L. Dolan is unlikely to sell the team, but the team needs a deeper sense of direction — and for that it needs a new owner. In a perfect world, the Halal Guys team up with some tech billionaire type and save the city… A head coach who believes in the power of analytics, the 3-point shot and giving the young guys serious minutes.”

    Marv Albert: “Without [Porzingis] — and you probably won’t see him completely back until the season after next — they at least have a chance to add to the young talent they have, get high draft picks this season and next, and then maybe… become attractive enough so they can add a couple of free agents.”

    Butch Beard: “OK, Jeff Hornacek is out. But think really hard about that new coach, because there is probably more losing to come. So you’d better be sure the guy you choose is ready to deal with more losing. And you are ready to not overreact when the fans and media start complaining… And then you have to figure out if you’re ready to give Porzingis—and his body does scare me, especially the legs—a max deal before he has come back healthy.”

    Leon Robinson, actor in, I kid you not, “Cool Runnings”: “It’s not just the coach, it’s gaps in the roster. Keep developing players in the G League. A lot of people were saying get rid of Hornacek, but the Knicks don’t have a viable roster to compete, plain and simple.”

    Spike Lee: “On bended knee I pray above to da basketball gods to deliver us back to da glory years of da Orange and Blue. Amen.”

  36. JK47

    The supposed franchise player of this team has a shredded ACL and is soon going to be making $40M per year, the other young asset the team has is a huge question mark and still has “bust” as a very plausible floor, and the team has once again managed to win enough meaningless games to slide down in the draft. The Noah and Lee contracts run for two more years and the terrible Hardaway contract runs three more years.

    Things are not going to be turning around here anytime real soon. I can’t really root for this team in a conventional way anymore. I mean, I’d love for them to be good again someday, but really I’m just here for the lulz.

  37. swiftandabundant

    I mean for all the work Chicago put into tanking it doesn’t seem like it was really worth it. I mean they ended up one loss worse than us. If it got them in the top 5 you could argue it was worth it but just to go from 9th to 8th (which actually isn’t even guaranteed)…seems like a lot of purposeful losing for no real gain.

  38. Hubert

    How quickly would THCJ lose the locker room? Three days?

    I’ve heard him say in the past he would advocate a coachless team. I prefer that to Mark Jackson.

  39. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

    He’d end up telling KP to drink bleach after taking his 4th contested long 2 during the home opener

  40. Frank

    Jay Wright seems a good hire also. Clearly good at developing players. Runs a modern offense. Blew the doors off everyone in the tournament in spite of really not having any top recruits.

  41. Frank

    KP wouldn’t say a word to THCJ — THCJ would somehow find some 2007 quote from KP that makes KP’s mom look bad or something, and would use that to intimidate him into silence.

  42. hoolahoop

    JVG’s focus on defense is great, and sorely needed.
    However, his lack of creativity on offense is a real concern. In his days with the knicks, his offense consisted of dumping the ball into the paint again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again.
    That scheme doesn’t exist anymore, and even more boring to watch than the triangle.

  43. Frank

    I guess this coaching change was known for a long time — check out how many quotes from how many people Begley has in this piece!

    Re: JVG’s offense – that was a long time ago. One would think he has a more modern idea of offense after all the time he spends looking at all the teams across the league and going to Sloan every year. I imagine that would be a topic of conversation during the interview.

  44. ClashFan

    I’m okay with the firing, but clearly H is being offered as a scapegoat by Mills for another bad season. Mills was in charge, and it didn’t get any better, so he doesn’t have the “it was Phil’s fault” card to play again.

    So, sadly, I think that whoever is hired, there will be pressure to win more games next year to show “improvement.” This might be okay as long as the WHOLE SEASON involves playing young guys. If we see a lot of Frank, the #1 pick, and maybe another youngster emerging, that will be real progress.

    But if some combination of more Beasley/LT/Lee/another vet signed to help with developing a “winning culture,” then it’s just more of the same witches brew that Macbeth experienced in Act 4.

  45. Frank

    Reading all these quotes from the presser, it sure sounds like all the stuff you’d like them to say. We’ll see if it really happens…

  46. thenoblefacehumper

    It’s been said already in better words than mine but hiring Mark Jackson would be a uniquely bad gut punch from a franchise that doles out plenty of them. The guy is, at absolute best, a throughly mediocre coach while being a fucking miserable person. He is literally the last basketball coach I know of at any level that I’d want coaching the Knicks.

    I’d be delighted with Wright, Stackhouse, Monty Williams, and Messina. I’d probably place JVG and Fizdale in a tier below those guys just because they seem pretty set in their ways but my expectation is Mark Jackson so it won’t be difficult to make me happy. Just, you know, don’t hire Mark fucking Jackson.

  47. chrisk06811

    Hard part is I’m sure a lot goes on behind the scenes that we don’t see. For example, Noah getting sent away….that can’t be a coach only decision; to pay him all that $$ to not show up. GM has to be in on that; and could it really be just to protect the coach? Playing/sitting Willy, starting Mudiay; etc. If you feel those are bad decisions; can you really be sure the decision maker is gone?

  48. Frank

    I gotta tell you, Scott Perry knows how to talk. Hopefully he sticks to the strategy that he says he’s sticking to.

  49. Frank

    this thing about wanting a coach who understands “today’s players” feels a lot like Fizdale and Stackhouse.

  50. ClashFan

    @55
    Noah is a walking, talking reminder of the folly of the Phil Jackson years. I’d be very surprised if he plays another game as a Knick, unless in very desperate circumstances (maybe if both Kanter and OQ opt out and sign elsewhere).

  51. hoolahoop

    I don’t care if Mark Jackson was the best NBA coach to ever step on a basketball court, and I don’t mean to offend anyone here, but the last thing I want to see is the knicks coach thanking our lord Jesus Christ for winning the game.

  52. Hubert

    He’d end up telling KP to drink bleach after taking his 4th contested long 2 during the home opener

    This supports his case for the job.

  53. djphan

    jay wright is a decent name that hasn’t been talked about much …. he’s definitely all about culture and he’s always stressed that in any interview he’s given…. villanova hasn’t really relied on top recruits to get their program to where it is today and that’s a testament to his ability to build a program from the ground up….

    but it’s different in the pro’s…. his offense will work to an extent …. a 4 out motion offense is very much what most teams do nowadays… the defense i imagine will need some work since they’ve used a lot of exotic zones and press for the most part…. i don’t think that will fly….

    a college coach who’s rigid in their ways and unable to adapt have typically not done well…. i don’t think wright is like that.. he fits more of the forward thinking group in my eyes but i could definitely be wrong….

    in any case… he’d be better than jackson for sure… and probably some of the previous head coaches that are on the candidate list…. we cannot get a veteran coach who’s focused on winning every single game…. we need a guy who will go take the baby steps with the team… that’s why i don’t think blatt or vogel or jackson or even jvg would work… monty williams maybe… but the guy needs to be focused on development….

  54. mase

    Do we have any chance at signing Kyle Anderson this off season?
    I don’t know what our cap space is like but he is the guy we need to throw money at. If perry/mills could accomplish this one feat they would have achieved superstar gm status.

  55. Brian Cronin Post author

    As we saw with the opening talk about how KP, Frank and Willy were the cornerstones of the team, this team has always talked the talk fine this season, but then walked the walk poorly. So all of this is pretty meaningless.

  56. Bruno Almeida

    If they do hire Jay Wright I’m happy. He’s not Mark Jackson and at least is a different face than the usual candidates. Seems like a good developmental guy too.

  57. JK47

    I don’t even care about whether Mark Jackson is a good X’s and O’s coach. He’s impossible to work with and he is a complete phony of a person. He’s insufferable. There are mountains of evidence chronicling this. There’s no question it would end up in a shitshow if he got hired here, it would absolutely 100% end in ugly and embarrassing fashion.

    Add an asshole like Mark Jackson to THIS clusterfuck? It’s pretty fucking amazing that this is something that is even being considered. Like the Andrea Bargnani trade and the Derrick Rose trade, it’s a move that is doomed from the minute it is announced. There’s a 0% chance it would work out in any positive way.

  58. kevin5318

    Jackson also barred Jerry West from team practice. Does Mills want to work with a guy like that?

  59. Stratomatic "Porzingis, Ntilikina, and Bridges will take us to the promised land"

    As we saw with the opening season talk about how KP, Frank and Willy were the cornerstones of the team, this team has always talked the talk fine this season, but then walked the walk poorly. So all of this is pretty meaningless.

    I agree.

    There are some incredibly charming and confidence inspiring CEOs in the business world that can make it sound like the company is about to go on a incredible growth trajectory all while on its way to bankruptcy.

    “Don’t listen to what they say, watch what they do”.

    That’s my motto.

  60. mase

    Who said jay wright would want to coach the Knicks?
    My take is that the Knicks were going to ask him if he wanted to coach

  61. The Glass Half Rebuilt

    I can’t think of a better guy for the Knicks’ job than Jay Wright. He’s coached a high profile college program and developed lesser talent to win 2 out of the last three championships. He also coached in Philly and not a small town like Durham or whichever city/town the University of Kentucky is located. I’d be pretty excited to have him coach the Knicks, and hearing that he’s the one the Knicks reached out to tells us a lot about the “coaching candidates:”

    Mark Jackson has been talked up specifically by the media. So has Doc Rivers and everyone else. We don’t really know who the Knicks want yet except for Jay Wright. I really hope he takes the job. We have all of our first round picks and there won’t be any immediate pressure to win.

  62. Brian Cronin Post author

    It’s funny how these things work out. Just, what, six years ago there were grumblings about Wright’s job and now the guy is a coaching icon. I’m not saying that he doesn’t deserve the plaudits, I just think it’s funny how these things sometimes work out.

    Remember how JVG was treated when he took over as the head coach in 1996?

  63. Brian Cronin Post author

    Let me also again get on the record that Mark Jackson’s “turnaround” in Golden State was way overblown. Under Keith Smart (poster boy of the “Well, he’s not a bad coach, but he doesn’t really seem to have any sort of a system” set. Which is what I fear about Monty Williams, as well, to be frank), the Warriors had won 36 games the year before Jackson took over. It was probably the second-hottest coaching opening on the market (after the Lakers, who hired Mike Brown for some dumb reason when Jax retired) and Jackson got it because he was the hottest coaching prospect at the time (even back then, I thought it was stupid that he was such a hot prospect. Nothing listening to him on ABC broadcasts made me think, “Oh yeah, this guy is going to be great”).

    Clearly, the idea was that this young Warriors team was ready to take the next step and make the playoffs. Instead, they got worse by 13 games (EDITED TO ADD: It was the strike-shortened year, so the drop-off probably would have been closer to 6-7 games if there was a full season played). Then, with Klay in Year 2 and Steph in Year 4 (plus adding a full season of Andrew Bogut and a decent new rookie, Harrison Barnes), they improved by 24 games (again, likely more like 17-18 game improvement if it weren’t for the strike-shortened season). It looks good if you didn’t know that they had won 36 the year before Jackson took over, but knowing that, it looks like a normal progression of a good young team except for the bizarre drop in Year 1.

  64. Brian Cronin Post author

    Looking back at when Jackson was first announced as the Warriors coach, I liked my line about what kind of coach Jackson will be, “a half court offense coach, a defense first coach and a bad coach – those are the three things Jackson is likely to be.”

  65. Bruno Almeida

    Well, 23 wins is deceptive because it was the lockout year, they would have probably been closer to 30 on a normal season. It was the year Curry barely played.

    Their improvement is on Curry getting healthy and starting to figure things out and become a superstar. If anything Jackson hindered the development of that team with all the mess surrounding him.

  66. Brian Cronin Post author

    Also a very good point.

    But either way, he gets way too credit for when people simply look at the whole 23 wins/47 wins/51 wins, as if he took over an awful team and turned them completely around.

  67. No Knicks Lead is Safe

    Hiring Mark Jackson would be a disaster. However, Brian, I think you’re being too hard on him in your evaluation of year 1. For one, it was the lockout year so saying the team got worse by 13 wins isn’t accurate. Two, Curry couldn’t stay on the court that year. He only played 26 out of the 66 games.

    I get in arguments with some friends all the time about how Mark Jackson’s success was in fact overblown, so I totally agree with you. I just wanted to clear the record up a bit and note that maybe his early coaching tenure reputation is probably not that far from the truth.

  68. Brian Cronin Post author

    Oh, I totally don’t mean to blame Jackson for them going to 23 wins. I’m just explaining that he shouldn’t be getting credit for the easy-to-digest-but-misleading-as-heck picture of the team going 23 wins to 47 wins to 51 wins.

  69. No Knicks Lead is Safe

    Never mind, Bruno is on top of it. :)

    Totally agree that the Warriors weren’t a cellar dweller when he arrived.

  70. The Glass Half Rebuilt

    GOOD NEWS: KANTER IS LEANING TOWARDS AN OPT OUT

    BAD NEWS: HE HOPES TO SIGN LONG TERM DEAL WITH THE KNICKS.

    A lot of you, prematurely in my opinion, already decided Mills and Perry didn’t know what they were doing. I think we’ll know based on who they hire to coach the Knicks and if they actually give Kanter a long term deal. Let him sign with the Nets.

  71. Frank

    You could honestly say the same thing about Steve Kerr if you want to –
    Klay hitting his prime years
    Steph hitting his prime years
    Draymond (who Jackson gave minutes to even as a 2nd round pick) hitting his prime years
    Barnes hitting his prime years

    Swapping out a bunch of awful bench players (87 year old Jermaine O’Neal, Jordan Crawford, Steve Blake) for good ones like Livingston, Barbosa, etc.

  72. Brian Cronin Post author

    Kerr took the same players who Jackson had playing to the 12th ranked offense to the 2nd best offense in his first year. The Warriors actually took a step back in defense ranks when Jackson first took over, before improving to #14 in Jackson’s second year and #4 in his third year.

    The team went from the #12 offense and the #4 defense in Jackson’s last year to the 2nd best offense and the best defense in Kerr’s first year. That’s not the same thing as Jackson’s tenure. That’s just plainly impressive.

  73. Frank

    Holy @%$&$% if Kanter does the unthinkably great thing (for NYK) and opts out and we then turn around and kick the gift horse in the mouth by signing him long-term, I will literally lose my mind.

    You have to figure that Kanter doesn’t opt out unless he knows there’s another deal waiting for him though… right?

  74. Brian Cronin Post author

    I think players sometimes do opt out like optimistic morons. Hopefully this is the case here.

  75. Brian Cronin Post author

    I saw that the Rockets cut Tim Quarterman and signed Aaron Jackson (who will be eligible for the playoffs, if needed). They signed Quarterman on March 30th. So, how did that work out with their roster? I thought that they cut Troy Williams because they needed a spot to sign Joe Johnson. Was that not the case? Did they just cut Troy Williams so that they could sign Tim Quarterman? That doesn’t seem smart.

  76. Brian Cronin Post author

    Okay, I see what happened. They did need the roster spot at the time to sign Joe Jonson. What happened was that they picked up both Joe Johnson and Brandon Wright on the buyout market, but it became evident that Wright wasn’t going to be healthy enough to be of any use this year following his knee surgery, so they cut him and that’s the roster spot they used to eventually sign Quarterman (they tried a few other guys first before settling on Quarterman). Okay, that makes more sense.

  77. Brian Cronin Post author

    Kanter opting out would be a dream come true.

    This being the Knicks, though, it’s only a dream come true until they then use the cap space on someone else moronic.

  78. ClashFan

    I wonder if Kanter opting out is part of an agreement with mgmt. They might negotiate that and sign him immediately upon the opt out. Otherwise Kanter and his agent are fools.

  79. The Glass Half Rebuilt

    If the Knicks let Kanter walk and sign Julius Randle I would literally be the happiest about this team I’d been in a while. Let Kanter walk and then somehow split his cap space between Randle and O’Quinn. I think $52M over four years for Randle and then something like $27M over three years for O’Quinn. That’s a dream come true for me. I’d even bring back Beasley.

  80. ptmilo

    I can’t bring myself to believe that Kanter is really planning on opting out. Bartelstein’s plan may be to focus all efforts on getting him an extension with the Knicks, the only team in the universe will to pay his other client, TH2, $72 million.

  81. Brian Cronin Post author

    I wonder if Kanter opting out is part of an agreement with mgmt. They might negotiate that and sign him immediately upon the opt out. Otherwise Kanter and his agent are fools.

    It definitely seems fishy.

  82. The Glass Half Rebuilt

    In a league where John Wall is scheduled to make $40M AAV and Andrew Wiggins $30M AAV, TH2 at $18M AAV isn’t all that crazy. It certainly isn’t the best way to spend money, but I suspect we’ll see a better TH2 next season provided his health is where it needs to be. I just hope the Knicks go get Julius Randle.

  83. Brian Cronin Post author

    The press conference where he said he was leaning towards opting out was weird. I think he’s not actually going to opt out. This seemed to be more about getting it out there that he wants to stay with the Knicks long term. They can’t want that, though, right? So when he learns that they’re not planning on signing him long term, he probably won’t opt out.

  84. Hubert

    Doesn’t Kanter have trade value on a one-year deal? I’d rather he opt in.

    Not that we trade players who have value.

  85. iserp

    Not that we trade players who have value.

    Yes we do! For a 2nd rounder two and three years into the future.

  86. Zanzibar

    There are many reasons why it would make no sense to extend/re-sign Enes and I would hope the front office recognizes them.
    (1) Plan is KP at the 5. Why pay Enes 11m+/yr to be a reserve?
    (2) Any double digit # would kill cap to obtain a quality free agent in 2019
    (3) KOQ is a better player and likely could be had cheaper.
    (4) Kornet would be a whole lot cheaper and fits the direction of the league.
    (5) Even Horn didn’t play Enes in 4Q; you don’t pay a lousy def center (start or reserve) big bucks

    Still, it’s worrisome that a Kanter extension and Mark Jackson hiring would be well-received by the average fan. And they were willing to eat into 2019 cap to match Payton had they traded for him. So nothing’s certain.

  87. Bruno Almeida

    I don’t think Kanter is too worried, he probably has a market still so that even if he opts out and doesn’t get a contract from the Knicks, he’ll land somewhere.

    He wants to stay in New York, but he wants a long term deal. I can only see this going in two ways: Perry wants him to stay, so he opts out and gets the deal; or Perry doesn’t want him, so he opts out and leaves. Makes no sense for him to opt in on a team that tells him he won’t get a long term contract if that’s his priority.

    Either way I’m a bit scared. One of the longest standing prophecies about the NBA is that Tyreke Evans will one day be a Knick and he’s a free agent now after a “strong” year.

    As I’m now a fully convert to the Dolan’s Razor, I think Kanter opts out, the Knicks draft Sexton + sign Tyreke to a 3 year 54 million deal to play under Mark Jackson.

  88. Farfa

    I just hope that whoever we end up with likes Frank enough to properly develop him. So please don’t hire Z-Man.

  89. Sir Robin

    My take is different. These guys dragged Horns through the season and now, he’s the scapegoat (from Phil’s regime) which must be purged. It’s why I think next year (or sooner) it will be Ntilikina and all other vestiges of Phil.

    And, just like all the fretting about draft positions, its just the pick we make and who we leave on the table that matters. Same will be true for the coach. We’ll likely pick some tired re-tread and miss out on the youngest, brightest young coach out there. it is why I recommended Jarret Jack be offered the G-league coaching position-as a backstop and developmental play.

  90. Stratomatic "Porzingis, Ntilikina, and Bridges will take us to the promised land"

    1. It would be a financial error for Kanter to opt out, but I don’t get the feeling that’s his area of expertise or that he has a realistic view of his own value. I’m going to assume his agent will talk some sense into him. He’s not going to opt out unless he loves NY and is willing to sacrifice some money to ensure he stays here on a long term deal. But I can’t think he’ll give up too much. His agent won’t let him.

    2. If the Knicks are serious about defense (and competent), they have to realize that Kanter should be viewed as more of a backup C and not as the long term solution in the middle. That goes double because the long term solution at C is Porzingis. We want his KP’s rim protection in the middle as often as possible as soon as he’s strong enough to cope with the bigger C’s in the league. It could also have some upsides in that he won’t have to chase around quicker PFs on the perimeter all the time. He may have more energy on offense.

    So how much can you offer your long term backup C given he may start for a year or two longer?

    Are you better off not offering any long term deal, re-signing O’Quinn, and trying to trade him?

  91. chrisk06811

    If Marc Jackson was to coach this team, who on the existing roster do you think he would accuse of being possessed? I would possibly guess Ron Baker?

  92. Stratomatic "Porzingis, Ntilikina, and Bridges will take us to the promised land"

    If Marc Jackson was to coach this team, who on the existing roster do you think he would accuse of being possessed? I would possibly guess Ron Baker?

    I’m not sure if the question is a joke or my answer is a joke, but assuming the question is serious and you want an actual answer, my money would be on Kanter.

  93. Brian Cronin Post author

    Oh man, Jackson and Kanter will be such a disaster next year when Kanter opts in and they hire Jackson.

  94. Stratomatic "Porzingis, Ntilikina, and Bridges will take us to the promised land"

    I can see the headline from Berman now.

    “Knicks considering hiring exorcist after 1-7 start. Offering 3 years at 5 million a year.”

  95. Zanzibar

    I think the front office will be reluctant to hire someone who hasn’t been an NBA head coach. The feeling might be – somewhat understandably – that it would be tough for a Nurse or Miller to step right into a NY Knick head coaching job. The Broadway lights burn bright and hot. And indeed D’Antoni, Woodson, and Hornacek all had been head coaches before taking Knick job.

    Blatt doesn’t connect to NBA players and his NBA record is dubious. Vogel has never shown anything in terms of offensive know-how and he didn’t distinguish himself in Orlando. Too many obstacles for JVG to be coach again. Mark Jackson is radioactive, no team’s gone near him since that GSW debacle. I’m worried that his name even appeared in that Woj tweet with Fizdale and Blatt as a candidate. I think Fizdale will be Perry’s choice but I fear Jackson might be Mills’ choice. I hope Perry wins.

  96. Hubert

    In a league where John Wall is scheduled to make $40M AAV and Andrew Wiggins $30M AAV, TH2 at $18M AAV isn’t all that crazy.

    In a family where one guy severed his arm and another guy severed his leg, would it be a good decision to cut off 7 of your fingers?

  97. Stratomatic "Porzingis, Ntilikina, and Bridges will take us to the promised land"

    why do we hate mark jackson?

    I have no issue with him other than I don’t think he will coach the offense well. I think we can probably do better.

  98. Stratomatic "Porzingis, Ntilikina, and Bridges will take us to the promised land"

    If I had to bet, I think Fizdale is the favorite.

  99. 2FOR18, understands math

    We’re much better off if Kanter opts in. The 2 year plan should be to develop Frank, Burke, Dotson and our draft picks next season, and then being a playoff contender with as much cap space as possible in 2019-2020 with our high 2019 pick (Hi Zion!) and a healthy KP.
    If Kanter opts out, they’ll use that money to do what 102 said.

  100. Brian Cronin Post author

    The only thing in his favor is that he’s not Mark Jackson, so I’d rather pass.

  101. Ntilakilla

    Just to recap today's NFL news*Colin Kaepernick won't say if he'll kneel next season, so Seahawaks cancel his tryout*Linebacker Reuben Foster charged with 3 felonies for allegedly punching his girlfriend in the head 8-10 times, and 49ers keep him on the team— Mike Rosenberg (@ByRosenberg) April 12, 2018

  102. Jack Bauer

    Mark Jackson as new coach and likely Miles Bridges with draft pick 9 or 10.
    The season just ended and things are about to go further south…..

    Help us, we’re So Due for some good decisions and Good Luck!

  103. chrisk06811

    heavencent35, to simplify it, he’s manipulative, homophobic, and he’s insane. But, if you want a full list:

    https://www.reddit.com/r/warriors/comments/42b5ne/what_exactly_is_mark_jackson_accused_suspected_of/

    One of my favorites, he told his team that Ezeli rooted for them to lose, while he was out injured, so that he would look more valuable. Apparently, the Ezeli was in tears when he explained to the team that this was bullshit.

    Oh yeah, and he thought Harrison Barnes was possessed.

  104. chrisk06811

    plus…..GS fired an assistant coach who was secretly trying to record the crazy shit that Jackson was saying.

    plus…..he will not hire assistants who he fears want his job.

    in short, dude has some issues. He had a great teardrop though

  105. Brian Cronin Post author

    Yeah, the fucking NFL really seems to be trying to “break” Eric Reid and Kaep. It’s so gross. I just tweeted a little bit ago,

    Teams can obviously ask for whatever they feel like it when they’re signing free agents, but “Promise you won’t kneel during the national anthem” sure seems like a superfluous request. “We think you’re good enough to pay millions of dollars to you, but man, that kneeling, though”

  106. Bruno Almeida

    Jason Kidd was fired midseason by Milwaukee of all teams because he was absolutely terrible. I’ve never seen a fan base be so unanimous about a coach being horrible. They were 23-22 when he was fired and they ended the season 6 games over .500 with whoever the hell is Joe Prunty as their coach.

    I do think hitting your wife and drunk driving is going to be more well received in a locker room than the package of homophobia, proposing to perform exorcism on players, cheating with a stripper, turning players against their teammates and randomly firing assistants, so Kidd’s got that going for him.

  107. Ntilakilla

    Told the team that Harrison Barnes was possessed by a demon, which is why he regressed

    Jesus Christ, this is going to be our head coach isn’t it?

  108. Ntilakilla

    Yeah, the fucking NFL really seems to be trying to “break” Eric Reid and Kaep. It’s so gross. I just tweeted a little bit ago,

    I so hope Kap wins his civil lawsuit against the NFL. Or at least his arbitration brings out so many embarrassing and revealing secrets about how the owners and executives there do business that they suffer a staggering PR nightmare.

  109. ClashFan

    I think I’m warming up to the idea of Mark Jackson as coach. I mean, Dolan, Mills, and Jackson would constitute some kind of unholy trinity the likes of which is rarely seen in the sports world. The NBA is an entertainment industry, and those three would certainly be entertaining.

    And, then when Mills is fired after the team fails to win 30 games next year, Isiah can be brought back as team president to make the unholy trinity perfect. A tragicomedy surpassing those of the ancient Greeks. They’ll made Oedipus and Agamemnon look like amateurs.

  110. Bruno Almeida

    You’ve got a point there, it might be one way to start working towards forcing the league to intervene on the Knicks, find a new owner and give us a 1st overall pick.

    Like if Jackson senses that Kanter doesn’t play defense because he’s possessed and arranges a meeting with Dolan’s participation and somebody videotapes it all.

  111. Grocer

    I don’t think Jackson is a front runner or really necessarily in contention. He’s basically the opposite of everything they said they were looking for. I don’t think they’ve made any decisions about who they really like for it or not, and it’s just a bunch of people tossing shit out there. This regime is pretty good about keeping a lid on leaks. They also straight up said that there was no timeline for hiring anyone and getting someone in time to have their input on the draft was not a priority in anyway. I don’t think it’s going to be a quick process, seems like they someone who’ll be around long term and is flexible enough to roll with it.

    Some interesting stuff from the press conference though. Apparently they did not give Hornacek any instructions about who to play or how many minutes to give. Which, if true, huh. That can’t be completely true. Also “looking for a coach who’s on the same page with where we want to be 3-5 years from now.” There’s a timeline if you like. If they don’t spend any real money on free agents this summer I might start to believe it. They also talked about planning to talk to Beasley’s representation, so he might still be around next year. They’re looking forward to seeing the team “grow and blossom.” MAYIM BIALIK IS OUR NEXT HEAD COACH.

  112. Stratomatic "Porzingis, Ntilikina, and Bridges will take us to the promised land"

    If you listen to John Paxon’s post season report about the Bulls, it sounded a lot like they are going to draft Mikal Bridges even though he did not mention any names.

    So we might as well start thinking about other options.

  113. Brian Cronin Post author

    Which, if true, huh. That can’t be completely true.

    That’s why listening to them talk is so pointless. What they say is not what they do.

  114. thenoblefacehumper

    I’d prefer Carter Jr. to Bridges. I’ve been talking about Bridges because I think he’s exactly the ninth most intriguing player in this draft (I still like him objectively, this draft is just pretty deep). If the Bulls take Bridges we’ll probably have a great option in Carter Jr. available but I’m sure we’ll go with Sexton or Miles instead.

  115. Stratomatic "Porzingis, Ntilikina, and Bridges will take us to the promised land"

    If they don’t spend any real money on free agents this summer I might start to believe it.

    Almost every team is going to spend most or all of the money they have available.

    The Knicks are not in a position to sign anyone “good” now because the team sucks and it doesn’t have much cap space anyway. But we WILL sign players.

    If they can’t find anyone worth having long term (which may be likely), they just need to keep the contract(s) short. That makes them placeholder contracts. That will allow them to roll the cap space over to future year when the team will have more cap space and be more attractive to the good players.

    The Knicks are looking to get serious in 2019/2020 and 2020/2021. That has been the plan for a long time already. That’s kind of when players like KP, Willy, Frank, Dotson, and this year’s picks were expected to start blossoming and some of the other contracts come off. So they can sign filler contracts going 1 or 2 years (preferably 1) this year.

  116. Stratomatic "Porzingis, Ntilikina, and Bridges will take us to the promised land"

    If the Bulls take Bridges we’ll probably have a great option in Carter Jr. available but I’m sure we’ll go with Sexton or Miles instead.

    I think Carter is gone. Cavs?

    I suspect that Young is falling to us and I’m not happy about it.

  117. Grocer

    That’s why listening to them talk is so pointless. What they say is not what they do.

    My impression is that they generally believe the things that they say, and they are generally going to do that, but that stuff is more just guidelines to them not hard and fast rules. So I could see them telling Hornacek something like ‘let’s give Mudiay a chance, see if he can be a starting point guard’ but not mandate that he start and not give a set number of minutes or anything. The sort of management that ends up being bad because you don’t fully grasp what they actually want because they want you to figure it out on your own.

    Almost every team is going to spend most or all of the money they have available.

    Yeah, I really just meant signings that for age/money reasons are obviously ‘win now’ moves. I expect we’ll have a few placeholders. I hope that those are young guys on 3-4 year contracts for low money where we might have a reasonable expectation of improvement and aren’t cutting ourselves off at the knees with the lost term costs when they don’t pan out. But 3-5 years is more or less what they were saying last year, so KP’s injury has them pushing that a year farther down the line. Sounds like the new goal is to be seriously competing in 21/22, or later.

  118. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

    If Carter is gone and Mikal Bridges is available, I think we should trade down with Phoenix or LA. I’m mixed on Bridges, though I think he’ll at least be pretty good. But I’m just as high, if not more, on SGA, Robert Williams, Troy Brown and Jontay Porter. I think there’s a few legit sleepers in this draft.

  119. Bruno Almeida

    If the Clippers want to trade up with no added costs I’m fine with it.

    The tiebreaker to determine if the Suns get the Bucks pick happens tomorrow, so they could be a good trade partner too (worse than the Clippers obviously).

  120. thenoblefacehumper

    Almost every team is going to spend most or all of the money they have available.

    The Knicks are not in a position to sign anyone “good” now because the team sucks and it doesn’t have much cap space anyway. But we WILL sign players.

    If they can’t find anyone worth having long term (which may be likely), they just need to keep the contract(s) short. That makes them placeholder contracts. That will allow them to roll the cap space over to future year when the team will have more cap space and be more attractive to the good players.

    This would be extremely stupid, just like it was with Arron Afflalo and Derrick Williams. There is absolutely no obligation to spend all of your available cap space. Even if there’s no clear opportunity to rent it out for assets during the offseason (and there usually is), that opportunity can arise during the season.

    It’s one thing to sign one-year deals with the idea of trying to get a small asset or two at the deadline, as the Grizzlies had the opportunity to do with Tyreke Evans this year but bafflingly sat on their hands. It’s another to sign guys no one wants for no reason other than you feel like you should.

  121. The Glass Half Rebuilt

    At #9 I think the best player available is going to be Chandler Hutchison. Nobody’s talking about him right now but I expect him to test well at the combine and he carried his team out at Boise State.

  122. Knick fan not in NJ at this time

    My (not a basketball fan) made the following comment about Hornacek: “What, he won a game with that team? He’s a good coach. Why did they fire him”

  123. Knick fan not in NJ at this time

    Actually, I don’t think Hornacek is a horrible coach, but I suspect besides not being Perry’s or Mill’s pick, they thought he didn’t get along with the players well enough (see Noah and KP), he didn’t coach defense well enough (maybe true, see below), and he seemed more impulsive than firm with his rotations and in game strategy (implied by the press conference). On the defensive schemes per se, I am not sure he was that bad at it, but he seemed to opt for offense over defense when choosing which players to use; particularly starting Kanter over O’Quinn, and starting Mudiay over anyone else.

  124. Knick fan not in NJ at this time

    Hornacek did actually win 29 games, which is roughly what was predicted for the season, despite a lot of injuries. So my wife sort of has a point.

  125. Knick fan not in NJ at this time

    I am catching up on comments, since it is morning here. On the subject of Kanter, I am not surprised he is talking about opting out. This is not illogical on his part, even though he will be very well paid next year if he doesn’t opt out. Like many players he probably wants a long term contract for security reasons, rather than risk injury, poor performance or a bad fit with his team joepardizing his ability to re-sign after his contract expires. He might be able to get a long term contract if he does opt out, so it makes sense for him to explore that option.

  126. Knick fan not in NJ at this time

    The Clippers might get him. They probably do need a good point guard. I am not sure that I want him, since I really want two way players and his defensive rep here doesn’t seem good.

  127. Stratomatic "Porzingis, Ntilikina, and Bridges will take us to the promised land"

    This would be extremely stupid, just like it was with Arron Afflalo and Derrick Williams. There is absolutely no obligation to spend all of your available cap space. Even if there’s no clear opportunity to rent it out for assets during the offseason (and there usually is), that opportunity can arise during the season.

    The Afflalo and Williams were extremely stupid if you think the only way to build a team is to tank for multiple years and rebuild almost exclusively via the draft like the 76ers and that renting cap space is always a good value.

    That’s kind of the consensus view here.

    IMO, there is no one sure path to heaven. There are many possible paths to heaven.

    You can rent cap space, trade players, sign free agents, use picks as currency, sign undrafted and G league players, and do any combination of the above and get to heaven. It doesn’t matter.

    What matters is remaining patient, staying flexible, recognizing player and pick value better than other teams, and making smart deals. IMO, you don’t start with a plan and then try to find value within that plan. You start by looking for value and eventually wind up with a plan.

    I don’t now how many people are familiar with value investing in the stock market, but IMO, the thinking should be similar.

    You don’t start with a certain industry or security type. You start by valuing all the securities within your circle of competence and then scoop up the best values wherever they might be at that time.

    In investing, filler contracts are like staying in cash for awhile longer because there are no good values available at the time.

    By all means, if there’s a good opportunity to rent some cap space for a pick, you should do that. Sometimes though, all you are doing is taking on crap contracts for multiple years and getting back less pick value than you could have gotten by waiting a year and using the cap space yourself.

    There may be many paths to heaven, but none of them are easy. :-)

  128. thenoblefacehumper

    The Afflalo and Williams were extremely stupid if you think the only way to build a team is to tank for multiple years and rebuild almost exclusively via the draft like the 76ers and that renting cap space is always a good value.

    I mean…was there some elaborate team building strategy I missed that made those signings not stupid? Are the Knicks in a better position now because we made them? We paid more for them than the Sixers paid for multiple unprotected first round picks. That’s god awful value, and if we do something similar it almost certainly will be again. Picking up the scraps of the veteran free agent market ain’t the next market inefficiency.

    What matters is remaining patient, staying flexible, recognizing player and pick value better than other teams, and making smart deals. IMO, you don’t start with a plan and then try to find value within that plan. You start by looking for value and eventually wind up with a plan.

    This is where you lose me every time. “Value” in the context of an NBA transaction is completely dependent on where a team is on the win curve. Nothing happens in a vacuum–there are teams for which Courtney Lee at $12m AAV would represent value. He doesn’t for us and it was obvious from the start that he never would. We just weren’t anywhere near close enough to contention to justify using cap room on a guy who is the 7th or so best player on a good team. The Cavs, on the other hand, would rightfully jump at the opportunity to pay Courtney Lee.

    Long story short, a “strategy” that emphasizes value above all us without taking into account your actual team’s place on the win curve is worthless.

  129. Frank

    I don’t mind the idea of shopping for value in principle, but the problem with the DWill and Afflalo contracts was that they weren’t even good value. Getting Beasley at the vet’s minimum was good value. Getting Burke on a flyer (and then signing him to a partially guaranteed 2nd year) was a good value. Paying DWill $5MM with a player option for year two, and Afflalo for $8MM also with a player option was just not smart. I don’t actually remember my feeling about those deals at the time, but certainly in retrospect there was nothing good that could have come out of those deals – either they play to their contract (ie. not great) or worse and then we are stuck with them for another year, or they outplay their contract and leave, giving us nothing more than the non-bird exception (or cap space) to re-sign them. They are filler guys, not guys that will really make your team better. So in that case, just sign filler guys that come way cheaper (or with better contract terms) and use your $$ in a more valuable way (ie. renting it out).

    Perry seems to have been a little smarter about his gambles — both Burke and Troy Williams were signed to partially guaranteed 2nd years, which gives us at least early bird rights if they somehow deserve it, and gives us an out if they don’t even live up to a minimum contract. Granted, he didn’t have any cap space to work with, but he’s only signed minimum salary guys and gotten a 2nd year from them. The Mudiay flyer has an out after next season (ie. just don’t offer a contract) but also comes with full bird rights in case he somehow deserves it. I think that is altogether a reasonable way to try to accumulate cheap talent.

    We don’t really have any cap space again this year unless Kanter somehow decides to opt out, which literally would be a miracle. And even if we have cap space, it’ll be a serious buyer’s market this summer. So I think for the most part we will be protected from ourselves.

  130. DRed

    Beasley was fine we just shouldn’t resign him unless he wants another one year deal and we try hard to deal him at the deadline to some fringe contender looking for shot creation. We’re going to suck next year we don’t need Mike Beasley.

  131. DRed

    And yes, there are many paths to the top of the mountain, but we’ve sucked for five years in a row and have almost nothing to show for it except two lotto picks with a lot of question marks and some cap space in 2020.

  132. Grocer

    We don’t really have any cap space again this year unless Kanter somehow decides to opt out

    We could also waive Noah. Which would be really dumb, we’d be much better off just paying him to stay at home or whatever and not having any cap hit going forward. But who knows? It’ll be interesting to see how they deal with that situation.

  133. Bruno Almeida

    The issue is that no teams that tread on the mediocrity line around 30 wins ever become contenders without some major luck happening, meaning a superstar for whatever reason wants to join your team or you pick a fantastic player in the later stages of the lottery.

    Staying around the Charlotte – Detroit area of the standings is and has always been worst case scenario. You have to go extra lucky on a part of team building that already is somewhat luck based like the draft and / or somehow become attractive for free agents and / or gather enough assets whenever (or if) a superstar becomes available.

    It’s a quicksand, a situation that inherently makes it harder to get out of it with every passing year. Detroit and Charlotte are really the perfect examples. They keep whiffing on draft picks every year (they have less options to choose from because of their positions), then making signings that don’t move the needle and ultimately going for trades to whatever their assets allow them to (Reggie Jackson, Griffin, Bradley, Howard, Batum).

    It’s like shooting yourself on the foot repeatedly. Your current assets get devalued as you’re not performing well and your picks are less valuable because of your record and the lesser amount of players to choose from.you can talk of finding value in different ways and that obviously can happen, but if that doesn’t happen you just shorten the amount of possibilities your team has in exchange for 10 more meaningless wins every year.

  134. Grocer

    Yeah, except rebuilding through the draft tends to result in a few seasons of mediocrity while your rookies develop, so you’re gonna look like that hopelessly stuck team at some point in that development unless you draft a Lebron-style playoff ticket or you manage to roll it like Philly. The Lebron path requires stupid good luck, Hinkie got railroaded out of the league (and he’s never getting another job like that in the NBA) and that fate is waiting for the next GM who tries to obviously lose for multiple seasons, and what is/was possibly the best basketball team to ever exist spent several years in that mediocre zone before it all clicked.

    If you want to trade KP, Frank, anybody we can get anything decent for, blow it all up and start again then just say that.

  135. Bruno Almeida

    I wasn’t even specifically referring to the Knicks, more to stratos argument about there being many ways to build a team.

    The Knicks case is obviously different as Porzingis is the x-factor. Right now he’s probably about as impactful as Kemba Walker: a productive star that’s actually better suited to being a secondary star on a good team, and that will lead his team to not much more than 35-38 wins if he’s your best player. He clearly has the chance of becoming much more than that. There’s also a real chance he won’t.

    If you tell me for sure Porzingis will never develop further? Sign me up for the blow up and rebuild, yeah. I still hope he’ll develop, I just would rather have sucked more this year to pair him up with a guy who had a chance to also be a star.

  136. Grocer

    Kemba Walker is where you hope your FO is savvy enough to open up another path to the top. Hope, it’s what we live on. Hey, there’s still a 6.1% chance we get lucky and move up.

  137. dtrickey

    In fairness to Charlotte they got super unlucky missing on the number 1 pick despite having the worst record that year and missing out on Davis.

  138. Brian Cronin Post author

    Man, that was such a shitty draft after Davis. Obviously, there was some talent available that Charlotte passed on (Beal, Dame and Drummond – and of course everyone missed out on Draymond Green), but it was still a very weak draft post-Brow. Sometimes being second is an okay place to be, but not that year.

  139. The Glass Half Rebuilt

    If a good organization got their hands on Michael Kidd Gilchrist he’d have turned into a premier two way player despite that ugly jumper. Part of me still wishes we grab him in a salary dump.

  140. Stratomatic "Porzingis, Ntilikina, and Bridges will take us to the promised land"

    The Knicks problem has been short term thinking and doing a terrible job of finding and attracting value (other than in the draft recently under Phil and Gaines). That’s why we’ve sucked for so long.

    However, I also think managing a team in the real world is not the same as in the theoretical world.

    In the real world basketball is still a business with ticket sales, merchandise sales, TV ratings, jobs, shareholders, agents, players, etc… So there is some kind of balance that must be struck between optimizing the team rebuild, running the business, and dealing with human beings with personal interests.

    I also think tanking is not the one and only path to contention.

    I still think all of that.

    We are on a decent path now. To some extent we’ve already screwed it up by putting Hardaway and Baker into the Rose cap space, trading away Willy, and trading for Mudiay. That has probably more then offset some of the better things we’ve recently done like adding Burke and grabbing that Bull’s 2nd rounder.

    Personally, I don’t care how we get to contention, but I think getting there is almost entirely about valuing assets correctly (whether they be draft picks, veterans, up and coming players, fliers, renting cap space etc…) and then managing the team flexibility so you can keep making value enhancing moves. I don’t think it HAS TO be tank and draft.

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