Would You Trade the Knicks’ Two Picks to Move Up to Draft Davion Mitchell?

Mitchell, the tough-nosed three-point shooting point guard for the NCAA championship Baylor Bears (and winner of all sorts of defensive awards in college), will likely not last until #19 (I doubt he lasts to #14, honestly), so if the Knicks want him, they would have to trade up to get him.

Mitchell is 4 feet 11 and 57 years old, so there are downsides to his game, but he’s quite likely the most NBA-ready player in the draft and boy, a tough point guard with strong defense would sure fit well on the Knicks, right?

As part of our all-poll content, I’ll let you make your pick as to whether the Knicks should do that (if possible, of course).

Would you trade #19 and #21 to trade up to draft Davion Mitchell?

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393 thoughts to “Would You Trade the Knicks’ Two Picks to Move Up to Draft Davion Mitchell?”

  1. For the cost, I wouldn’t. It’s gonna cost a ton to move up far enough to get him. I love his game, but I’m not giving up a ton to draft a guy who most likely won’t start from day one and be a difference maker. Rookie PG’s are tough to gauge, and starting one is not ideal for a team in the same position as we are.

    This draft is gonna fall funky for us. I wouldn’t be surprised at all if we end the offseason with Lonzo, Sharife Cooper, and Cam Thomas

  2. This draft is gonna fall funky for us. I wouldn’t be surprised at all if we end the offseason with Lonzo, Sharife Cooper, and Cam Thomas

    Doesn’t the Bledsoe deal basically assure that Lonzo isn’t leaving New Orleans?

  3. Why would Lowry go to NO? Philly wants him, and all rumors point to Ben Simmons being moved, so i guess that’s where Lowry will end up. Meaning Lonzo is staying put.
    Unless… for me there’s a “dark horse” for Lonzo’s services, that no one is talking about – the Hornets. They can pair Lonzo with LaMelo, they just need to offer him the max because probably no other team will do that. Now, do the Pelicans match it, or what?
    PS: They even are expected to sign LiAngelo to their summer league roster. Do we need a bigger hint than that?

  4. Cam Thomas? Don’t see that happening at all. Yes, he is talented and can absolutely light it up, but he doesn’t pass and he couldn’t care less about playing defense. Seems like a hard pass from Thibs

  5. Oh, and btw, voted no. I know Z-Man has been making a case for Mitchell, and in some parts i agree, but i don’t think that the players reachable pairing #19 and #21 to move up are worth it, and this includes Mitchell. In case the FO feels that a player is worth it and do the deal, i won’t be mad, just i wouldn’t do it, but automatically i’ll be rooting for them to be right, of course.

  6. would not. the davion thread was interesting. but he seems a lot more like mario chalmers to me than kyle lowry. by eye test he is faster — incredibly fast — going left. but unsurprisingly he doesn’t pass as well going left and uses a lot of right hand finishes. might be rough for him to get those speed finishes in the nba. could see him as a better avery bradley, but upside for a low ft/reb small with shooting questions seems like a huge reach for trade up.

  7. Brian Cronin: Doesn’t the Bledsoe deal basically assure that Lonzo isn’t leaving New Orleans?

    Ah! I forgot about that lol. Ugh..Cam Payne maybe?

  8. So let me understand this: the poll proposes we trade up so we can draft a twenty two year old player who’s main calling card is defense. The Knicks have already demonstrated they can have good defense without a defensive specialist, they’ve also demonstrated they can put together a competent team using mostly free agent spending, they have enough cap space they can do that again if they want to, and they have publicly stated they are looking for shooting in the draft. Why would they even pick a defensive specialist who’s old enough that he’s unlikely to ever be a star, much less give up assets to trade up for him? They need upside from their draft picks, not role player types. I know it’s easy to love watching good defense and like the player who is doing it; but that is not what they need at the moment. I’d rather trade up to draft Christopher, even though we probably don’t have to trade up to get him. He has upside and meets a need.

  9. I’d probably vote no to taking him at 19 or 21. I just don’t like his profile.

  10. Have to think Ball would come here if NOP went for Lowry. It’s one thing to say players make more money in a big market, it’s an entirely different thing to say a player with his own brand would make more money in a big market.

    Honestly, it’s more a question of do the Knicks want him if he opts out.

  11. I have followed the Davion discussion with interest. I have to agree with the critics, the profile is very underwhelming. At the same time, he also feels like exactly the kind of guy who could actually make good. But trading up for him would be crazy.

  12. Wasserman’s latest draft notebook gets more specific about what we’ve been up to:

    A source says the Knicks have made calls to late-lottery teams about trading up. I’m told the Warriors turned down Nos. 19 and 21 for No. 14. The Knicks don’t have strong enough draft assets to get into top 10, and now it seems like a long shot they can get into the late lottery. Keep an eye on Murphy for New York, given how his reputation has blown up during the predraft process. The Knicks worked him out, and it sounds unlikely he’ll be available at No. 19. Depending on their level of interest, New York could talk to the Wizards about a deal for No. 15.

    This is after several bullet points about how we’re interested in both Duarte and Murphy, and that both are soaring up various teams’ boards.

  13. Well, whichever team drafts Mitchell, I can envision 100+ Knickerbloggger posts on his first game, even if he only plays 10 minutes.

  14. https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2946272-2021-nba-draft-buzz-a-swing-for-the-no-1-pick-lottery-movers-and-shakers

    A source says the Knicks have made calls to late-lottery teams about trading up. I’m told the Warriors turned down Nos. 19 and 21 for No. 14. The Knicks don’t have strong enough draft assets to get into top 10, and now it seems like a long shot they can get into the late lottery. Keep an eye on Murphy for New York, given how his reputation has blown up during the predraft process. The Knicks worked him out, and it sounds unlikely he’ll be available at No. 19. Depending on their level of interest, New York could talk to the Wizards about a deal for No. 15.

    Yuck all around.

  15. Meanwhile, on the subject of Mitchell, Sam Vecenie at The Athletic did a couple of pieces breaking down the players who are best at various offensive and defensive skills. In the defense piece, he has Mitchell as the draft’s top point of attack defender, describing him thusly:

    Mitchell is one of the best point-of-attack defenders I’ve evaluated, a total monster on defense who is as disruptive a player as you’ll come across. He’s tenacious and genuinely attacks the ballhandler with pressure. There are no easy dribbles when he’s around because of his high-pressure, high-energy attitude. He crawls up into an offensive player’s handle but doesn’t ever get beaten. Mitchell’s lateral quickness is elite. Even if an opponent catches him leaning one way, he has the ability to slide back quickly into position and recover. This also allows him to be aggressive on closeouts, knowing he can get back in front. And because of his strength, you can’t go through him. He’s so solid through his torso that he can absorb contact well without fouling. And even more essential? He does a great job of fighting through screens. He navigates them well with his footwork and anticipation for where they’re coming from. Plus, his hands are so active. Turn your back on Mitchell and he’ll poke for a steal. He’s excellent at the strip swipe as players load to shoot. He has the potential to be a top-five on-ball defender in the NBA. He’ll stick in the NBA for sure because of this skill.

    Mitchell is not in Vecenie’s top 5 for the other categories (switchable perimeter defense, off-ball defense, rim protection, etc.), but some other guys we’re interested in are. And here’s a link to…

  16. Davion Mitchell is not quite the biggest landmine in the draft… but he’s probably it’s most overrated…. Mitchell was not a prospect until this year.. when he basically got hot from 3…. 141 3pt attempts is basically a couple months worth of games in the nba….not to mention the college 3 is shorter… you really cannot rely on 3pt% in college…. without the 3pt shot he’s probably an early 2nd rd pick… which was basically Jevon Carter..

    Jevon Carter was an ok prospect but he was an older one known for his defense coming from a high ball pressure defense at WVU and he had a 3pt shot on top of that.. he was that draft’s 3 and D pg… and Jevon Carter actually played pg and he got picked at the top of the second rd…. guards who are low volume scorers who’s stand out skill is defense usually don’t get picked this high… but the whole reason he’s climbed is because of his 3pt shot…. and there’s a million reasons to believe that it’s a fluke…

    There’s also a bit of inconsistency here given that Mitchell for some odd reason is rated so much higher than Jared Butler.. and this was happening before the heart issues started popping up… Butler played across the board better than Mitchell… he’s younger… has a much longer track record of success…. and played just as much pg as Mitchell as they basically alternated possessions together… to my eye i haven’t seen any analysts explain the rationale behind this as they blindly rate Mitchell higher when Butler’s been playing in the same games and largely getting ignored in comparison…. this is not quite Knox vs SGA but it’s pretty close….

    Trading up for Mitchell would actually be lighting picks on fire… and it would set us back immensely…. he’s not the draft’s first dog on defense… and that alone is not going to make him into an nba player as we’ve seen time and again…

  17. I would definitely NOT trade up for Mitchell. While I like him, I’ve consistently said that he’s more of a #15-20 pick.

  18. I voted no as well. I might have pause taking him with one of our current picks, especially if Butler and some other PG types are there, and I definitely wouldn’t want to trade up for him.

  19. I like Mitchell but wouldn’t trade up for him.

    I actually prefer where our picks are and think that some of the best prospects will drop to us — Johnson, Thomas, Cooper, Sengun and Springer. I’m glad the older prospects are moving up in the rankings.

    Thibs needs to back off on demanding “ready to play” guys because when drafting, you have to take the best talent, period. 18-year-old Springer is better than 18-year-old Duarte was (a half decade ago). Really the best bet is to load up on young players with standout college numbers and hope to hit on one or two… and we acutally have the chance to do that. We can get Thibs players in free agency.

  20. Yeah I hope Leon doesn’t give all in to Thibs wanting win now players. We got 15 roster spots and we hired Kenny Payne for a reason. We got lots of cap space so there is no reason why we can’t also sign vet free agents to help us “win now” while also developing some rookies. It doesn’t have to be either/or. If we land one rotation player out of our 3 picks (not counting the late second rounder), we are suddenly in a pretty good spot as far as youth and future potential goes. The rookie contracts for picks 19 and 21 are really affordable and if even one of them works out, that’s a cost controlled asset for 5 years. And with cap space we can still have our vets too.

  21. Granted, I haven’t seen any of these college kids play enough to have a strong opinion and I don’t know what’s going on behind the scenes in free agency or the trade market. But the more I think about the options being discussed publicly in the media the more I think we should bring back Bullock, Burkes, Noel (if possible), and just try to upgrade Payton. I might even consider a deal to roll one of our 1st round picks out to next year somehow. I don’t think any difference makers are going to be available to us in the draft, I’m not sure there are any attractive deals in the trade market to use them as currency, and drafting 4 players would most likely be a waste of some of the assets and unlikely to move the chain forward any time soon.

  22. Shot:

    I haven’t seen any of these college kids play enough to have a strong opinion

    Chaser:

    I don’t think any difference makers are going to be available to us in the draft

  23. We got lots of cap space so there is no reason why we can’t also sign vet free agents to help us “win now” while also developing some rookies.

    I said this in a previous thread, but it probably requires repeating.

    The Knicks can potentially lose Bullock, Burks, and Noel (I’m going to assume Rose and Taj will be back but that’s not 100% either). That’s a LOT of production to replace cheaply enough in free agency to also add a good PG to replace Payton so we can move forward. There’s a decent chance the Knicks could go backwards in “talent” next year unless they hit some more homeruns in free agency. We have some good young players with upside, but a major component of our success last year was Randle’s 3p% (potentially not sustainable) and Bullock, Burks. Noel, Rose, and Taj. Lose those guys and we are back in the lottery, back to being a laughing stock, and back to no star free agents even considering coming here.

  24. thenoblefacehumper:
    Shot:

    Chaser:

    When you are drafting 19th and 21st it is unlikely you are going to get an immediate impact all star. That’s what we NEED. We don’t need more role players that will be peaking in 2026. We have several of those already and a ton of cap space to add several that will come in and actually playing winning basketball now and for the duration of their contracts.

  25. strat, do you see how many opinions I have on the 80 prospects out there, 60ish of whom will be irrelevant within a few years? Be more like Cock Jowles.

    I don’t know what’s going on

    You could have stopped right there and it would have been okay.

    ——————

    I’ve watched a few highlight reels of Sengun. No way he’s dropping to 19. Too skilled a passer. But also, maybe he drops to 19.

  26. We aren’t trying to maximize 2028.

    We are trying to improve in 2022, open the window to contention in 2023, and have a good enough mix of veteran talent and youth to keep it open for long enough to give ourselves a chance at a serious run.

  27. Strat, I think you are overvaluing our vets. Bullock and Burks did some nice things, but someone like Torrey Craig is out there, and he’s just as good. There’s Cory Joseph… there are players out there around 30 years of age who have figured out their roles and can slide into a lineup, even guys in Europe.

    Like you yourself said: We need stars, and I think it’s worth trying to find them in the draft. Maybe you trade up, maybe you don’t, I’ll leave that up to the FO.

  28. The Honorable Cock Jowles:
    strat, do you see how many opinions I have on the 80 prospects out there, 60ish of whom will be irrelevant within a few years? Be more like Cock Jowles.

    You could have stopped right there and it would have been okay.

    I don’t waste time looking at college boxscore stats that may or may not translate well to the NBA depending on the competition and specific skill sets of the players. I have to see the players play too. If I happen to see a couple when I watch NCAA college games I may have some opinions, but I watched almost nothing this year. I’ll look at the stats after we draft our role players. :-)

    I have better things to do. Saratoga racetrack is open now. :-)

    I know enough to know that it is very unlikely 19 and 21 are going to get us what we need unless we can move up or trade them. We need all star talent and not in 2026.

  29. Potentially attainable picks at 19, 21 and 32: Butler, Cooper, Dosunmu, Mann, Christopher, Springer, McBride, Hyland, Grimes, Jackson, Bassey, Queta. It’s not a bad list at all.

  30. trading up for Duarte or Murphy is the kind of thing that front office cynics like myself remain frightful of. We shouldn’t be going into this draft with a similar mindset to Golden State & the Lakers, but all accounts seem to indicate we are.

  31. Bryn Forbes opted out of his contract and the Bucks may have a hard time re-signing him with their cap situation and interest in other free agents (including some of their own). Any interest in him as a reserve here?

  32. Deefense…this is such a dumb take. Sorry, but we literally just drafted a second team all-rookie player at 25 and you’re gonna say we can’t find good players later in the draft? And yeah, we need stars. No shit. We also need role players. If we spend all of our cap space the next few years on veteran role players, we won’t have money for the stars you so desperately crave. And if picks 19 and 21 are so worthless, then we’re gonna have to include like all of our first round picks the next 4 or 5 years to get these stars in trades.

    Plus, we have cap space to potentially sign stars in free agency. And if we hit on one of these picks and get a good rotation player that is young and cost controlled, that player is far more valuable in a trade for a star than some theoretical late first round pick. Including IQ in a trade today would have more value than including the #25 pick last year in a trade.

    Also, we don’t “desperately” need to do anything. We had an amazing season. Won way above expectations. We’re playing with house money right now. We can afford to be patient. The Bucks and Hawks and Philly aren’t going anywhere. The Nets have a short window but will be in our way too for at least another season or two. We don’t have to beat them next year. We should be looking 2 to 3 seasons from now. Build on what we had last year and keep pouring concrete to the foundation.

  33. Also, Deefense. We don’t have several of those role players. Rose, Taj, Bullocks, Burks, Noel…none of them are guaranteed to come back next year. And guess what? Since we were good last year, they potentially are going to cost us more than they did this year. That’s what happens with free agent veteran role players when they’re on good teams. They cost more money to bring back. So if we bring the same crew back we’re potentially out of all of our cap space. If we give them all one year’s again, we’re back to doing it again next year and the next year after that and we won’t have that cap space to get the starts you want. This is why you HAVE To use your picks to hopefully draft a replacement or two.

    We have 3 legit shots with our picks. If one of them hits and is good enough to replace even one of the vets above, that’s ONE LESS free agent vet role player we have to worry about signing for the next 5 years. That’s potentially a lot of savings that can go elsewhere.

    And here is the thing. We could just bring that crew back for one more year and still make these picks and develop them behind those vets so that next year or the year after they can replace those dudes and then we go for the home run all-star in a season or two.

  34. I don’t see Forbes as a Thibs style player at all. He would give us a shooting element but he’s absolutely awful on defense for one thing. And then secondarily because of how awful he is on D he really requires a flexible role – more of a guy who you use on a night where the offense isn’t ticking and in the minutes where there’s a good place to hide him on D than someone you just stick in a regular rotation role and forget about. That isn’t really how Thibs likes to use his rotation.

    As for the draft the more I look at it the more I think we should probably be looking to trade out of this draft rather than up. Both are ways to avoid the issue of having more rookies on this roster that Thibs will ever consider putting in a rotation but really we want to preserve assets going forward to make a big trade when one is available and keeping ourselves well stocked with future picks is the best way to do that. Teams are going to fall in love with guys in our range and if we could trade 19 or 21 for a couple of future picks I think that could be a smart long-term move. It all depends on the specifics of course but it’s a move we should at least be looking at imo.

  35. Deeefense: I have to see the players play too.

    And even when you see them play, you do not know what’s going on.

    I don’t know what’s going on.

    Welcome, brother.

    Simone Biles news out of Tokyo is pretty wild: She pulled out mid-event because of nerves. I’m sure I’ll regret this take, but isn’t a critical part of high-level athletics that whole “determination and mental fortitude” thing?

  36. Addendum: fuck the managers of USA Gymnastics (she owes them nothing), just kind of crazy to pull out during the gold medal event.

  37. Dav Mitch is one of the few players I don’t like from this draft. There are a lot of PG prospects within the 19-21 range. No need to go after this dude.

  38. Both of our rookies last year were in the rotation, though. And one of them was the 25th pick.

    And why do our rookies HAVE to be in the rotation next season? I just find it weird that is the only way some people are seeing this. If one out of the three ends up being good enough to crack the rotation, that’s pretty awesome. The other two can develop on the bench for a season.

    Jimmy Butler hardly played his rookie year under Thibs. Then he became an all-star.

    We have 15 roster spots. Let’s assume its a 10 man rotation. Are we gonna spend all our money of vets for the 10 man rotation and then what…the other 5 players are G-League unsigned players? NO! Those other 5 spots can be some of our rookies who will be practicing against those vets and working with our coaches to eventually make the rotation next season or the season after.

  39. Also not high on Mitchell. Would prefer Mcbride or Butler plus we can draft Noel and/or or Bullocks replacement with the two remaining picks

  40. The Honorable Cock Jowles: I’ve watched a few highlight reels of Sengun. No way he’s dropping to 19. Too skilled a passer. But also, maybe he drops to 19.

    No way Sengun is there for us. He was MVP of the Turkish League, probably the 2nd best league in Europe for some years now. If no other team takes him before San Antonio, i’d bet they take him. So 12th at worst, but the Hornets are 11th and don’t have a center, would be totally dumb to pass on him.

  41. If you want to say it’s statistically unlikely we land a rotation player at 19 or later, I won’t argue with you. However saying good players won’t even be “available” is being willfully blind to both the particulars of this draft and recent history. I mean, let’s take a quick look at guys picked 19th or later in the last few drafts. I’ll stick to guys who have been unquestionably productive as opposed to just having shown promise to avoid any nitpicking:

    2020
    Saddiq Bey
    Immanuel Quickley
    Payton Pritchard
    Desmond Bane
    Xavier Tillman

    2019
    Matisse Thybulle
    Brandon Clarke
    Keldon Johnson
    Kevin Porter Jr.
    Nicolas Claxton
    Daniel Gafford
    Talen Horton-Tucker
    Terance Mann

    2018
    Kevin Huerter
    Robert Williams
    Jalen Brunson
    Devonte Graham
    Mitchell Robinson
    Bruce Brown
    De’Anthony Melton
    Shake Milton

    2017
    John Collins
    Jarrett Allen
    OG Anunoby
    Kyle Kuzma
    Derrick White
    Josh Hart
    Thomas Bryant
    Dillon Brooks
    Monte Morris

    2016
    Malik Beasley
    Caris LeVert
    Pascal Siakam
    Dejounte Murray
    Malcom Brogdon

    2015
    Delon Wright
    Montrezl Harrell
    Richaun Holmes
    Josh Richardson
    Norman Powell

    2014
    Gary Harris
    Clint Capela
    Bogdan Bogdanovic
    Kyle Anderson
    Joe Harris
    Jordan Clarkson
    Spender Dinwiddie
    Jerami Grant
    Nikola Jokic

    In fact, history pretty much guarantees there will be good players available to us. The hard part, obviously, is drafting them. If you’re absolutely confident our front office won’t be able to do that, I’m not sure what makes you think they’ll be able to “negotiate fair contracts” in free agency and “win trades” either.

  42. And why do our rookies HAVE to be in the rotation next season? I just find it weird that is the only way some people are seeing this. If one out of the three ends up being good enough to crack the rotation, that’s pretty awesome. The other two can develop on the bench for a season.

    This is correct, and I will repeat that there is approximately zero chance our rotation goes 15 deep.

    I have no idea where people are getting the idea that good teams completely punt on drafting players with the intention of developing them. Again, Philly rostered Maxey, Paul Reed, and Isiah Joe this season.

    The O/U on extra wins they could’ve squeezed out by signing free agents who would be content with barely ever playing instead of rostering Reed and Joe is, what, 0.5?

  43. I voted “no” in the poll, even if I understand some of Z-Man arguments and lean on “readier” players more than many here.

    But the good thing with “2 and a half” first rounders is that you can use a pick on a toolsy project and still get good help for the rotation. If we get 2-3 kids from the above list I’ll be happy.

    Rumors for picks 7 to 20 are changing by the minute while strange things are floating about free agency (I’m shocked that Lowry to the Pels is even mentioned as a real possibility), the next ten days will be crazy.

  44. On Davion Mitchell, his defensive skills are as advertised. He’s a beast on defense- highly disruptive and never takes a play off. In fact, after watching him play a few games last year, I told my middle school son to try to emulate his style of play on defense. Davion is a winner and I think he can have a good career.

    That said, I just can’t get comfortable trading up for him. The shot consistency remains a question (as others have pointed out), and I’m not sure that he can be a great facilitator in the nba

  45. Wow, Lowry apparently wants $90 mil over three years. I would not like that move.

  46. This was an easy NO. He’s not worth those two picks.However, if the Knicks stay and were to take him at 19, that’s fine.

    And I agree; I wouldn’t trade 19 and 21 for 14 in this draft, unless maybe some supposed top tier guy really falls on draft night, and you really like him. But then, why is the guy falling?

  47. Simone Biles news out of Tokyo is pretty wild: She pulled out mid-event because of nerves. I’m sure I’ll regret this take, but isn’t a critical part of high-level athletics that whole “determination and mental fortitude” thing?

    Yeah I mean there’s definitely going to be a big contingent of people saying you basically can’t criticize her for it because it’s a mental health thing and there’s probably some truth in that, but to the extent that we talk about choking, meltdowns, etc. in sports which are always mental issues, this has to go down as one of the biggest chokes in sports history, right? The indisputed GOAT of her sport just opting out because she got shook during the every 4 years culmination of her sport? It goes about 50 levels above and beyond Lebron in 2011.

  48. Yeah I mean pretty much every good team except the super friends teams of recent years will have a rookie in the rotation off the bench and will develop younger players WHILE competing. Maybe some of this is coming from the place of last year where we did ride a good regular season largely off the backs of vets and people don’t trust we can develop still? But there is no reason why our 10 man rotation can’t be our core players plus vets with one rookie on the second unit and 2 in the third unit developing behind the scenes. I think also there is now this idea that any pick that doesn’t work out is automatically a bust and you should have done something else with it. But the fact is if you want to find good young players in the draft, you have to draft some busts too.

  49. I would LOVE to have our own (tiny) Matisse Thybulle on the team, one that might even be able to hit threes. But that’s not our priority needs right now, which sum up to guaranteed shooting and good play making. So I’d pass on taking Mitchell at 19 or 21, much less trade up for him. It’d make me sad, but such is life.

  50. ***Welcome, brother.***

    Thanks, man. That actually felt pretty good to say.

  51. Didn’t have too strong of an opinion on Mitchell, but the critics in the last two threads convinced me. I’d be disappointed if we trade up for him or Murphy. Strategically, I think it’s better to keep both the picks unless Barnes/Bouknight miraculously made it to 10, but the picks probably still wouldn’t be enough to trade up to 10. The rest of the guys in the teens range don’t seem that differentiated.

  52. With that in mind, DeMar DeRozan and Spencer Dinwiddie are two players on the Knicks’ radar in at least some of their free agency scenarios, per SNY sources.

    Dinwiddie makes a lot of sense to me because I think he’s the most likely of the high quality free agent PGs to take a short-term deal for a non-title contender. The chance to be in a really big role on a pretty decent team and make good money while simultaneously building back his value from the ACL to try to get a mega-deal in 1-2 years could make a lot of sense for him I think (in contrast to e.g. Lowry where it makes a lot of sense for us but not necessarily much sense for him).

    Derozan makes no sense at all to me. He played mostly PF this year because he can’t guard quick players at all anymore, he’s too slow. And of course he still doesn’t shoot 3s. The idea of playing Randle, Derozan and a C together is giving me hives. He’s also a big risk to be negatively impacted by changes to how they officiate BS foul-drawing behavior if that really does come to pass.

  53. Simone Biles news out of Tokyo is pretty wild: She pulled out mid-event because of nerves. I’m sure I’ll regret this take, but isn’t a critical part of high-level athletics that whole “determination and mental fortitude” thing?

    bless you for the brief respite from the draft talk…i mean the draft is interesting and whatnot, but, who knows who’ll we’ll end up choosing…easier to dissect afterwards…i’ll tell ya – djphan’s info is more than enough for me to get an okay idea of who’s out there, and, who may fit for us…we’ll see what happens thursday…

    the olympics are, well, the olympics – although to be honest, this year’s/last year’s games feel most definitely odd…

    when i heard about biles dropping out – i get it – who the fuck wants to be ten feet off the ground twisting/turning and whatever trying to get back on the ground safely if you can’t get your head straight…she looked obviously off in the preliminaries…

    it’s her body, do with it as you wish…disappointing for soooo many (including her teammates) for sure though…

    it did make me think back to jackie joyner kersee and some of the challenges she went through during olympic competition, and how her husband just pushed her to the limit…

    jackie joyner kersee though wasn’t ten feet up in the air twisting and turning like crazy while trying to get back to the ground with her knees/ankles/neck still intact…

    sucks to lose your mojo at the most inopportune time, but – it ain’t like she’s running a race or playing table tennis – that’s some really dangerous stuff they’re doing our there…

    she may need to pack up that rhinestone goat suit of hers though…

  54. Yeah, she’s not performing heart surgery, so [shrug emoji]. Sometimes the theater of sport takes us to a new place, I guess. In this case, it’s something like, “Does winning even matter, like, at all?”

  55. Voted no and am thinking about creating some sockpuppet accounts to vote no some more. Davion Mitchell is not someone that should be traded up for. If he falls to us at 21, fine he’s worth taking there but he doesn’t have anything close to the profile to be trading up for.

  56. DeRozan & Dinwiddie seem like good candidates for big 1 & done contracts. I’d be happy with either/ both on a 1yr deal.

    I think DeRozan may have played PF because of Keldon Johnson more than age, but it’s not like I followed the Spurs closely.

    We need more firepower and they can give it to us. Either one can act as PG, our other need this offseason.

  57. I would be okay drafting Mitchell with #32, though I still don’t know if there wouldn’t be better options even at that point in the draft. I think he will stick in the NBA but he screams career back up to me.

    The only player outside of the top six I would trade up for is Sengun. Nobody else feels head and shoulders above the players who will be available at 19 and 21.

    I really hope we just make our four picks, maybe even grab a fifth and take Jones, I really like him as a 2nd round flyer. Of all the players mocked at 58 I like Knight. I think he is a nice 2way candidate.

    We need an influx of young cost-controlled talent so we don’t go into every offseason with 3-4 holes in our rotation. This draft seems like it is filled with good potential role players at the wing, center, and at combo guard. Let’s take 3-5 of them and have real depth for a change.

  58. I’m reading a lot about how deep this draft is. The two choices for me are to
    1) draft at 19 and 21.
    2) Package the draft picks for an established star.

  59. Biles withdrawing I (1) understand and (2) think she could completely mail it in and still do something so much more impressive than #2 that she’d still win gold. It’s disappointing, but it’s not like she needs to prove anything anymore.

  60. Early Bird:
    DeRozan & Dinwiddie seem like good candidates for big 1 & done contracts. I’d be happy with either/ both on a 1yr deal.

    I think DeRozan may have played PF because of Keldon Johnson more than age, but it’s not like I followed the Spurs closely.

    We need more firepower and they can give it to us. Either one can act as PG, our other need this offseason.

    Dinwiddie sure since he’s coming off an injury but Derozan is about to turn 32. Don’t know why he’d agree to a 1 year prove it deal. I would think he’s looking for one last big contract.

  61. I’m surprised by the thread, because I don’t think a single poster suggested that we trade up for Mitchell or was excited by the possibility.

    But if he was available at #19, I’d be excited if we took him. Even though video analysis/synergy-based analysis is decried by some here, at the end of the day projecting whether a guy will reach his ceiling or floor comes down to something that should be visible on film. Conversly, when a guy surprises (Donovan Mitchell) or busts (Dennis Smith Jr.) there should be something that you can pick out in retrospect that you should have noticed. In Mitchell’s, the assumption seems to be that if his outside shot isn’t for real, he’s Jevon Carter. Yet in watching film analysis of both guys, I don’t see the comparison. In Davion’s case, I see an elite fast-twiitch athlete with superb straight-line speed, body control, hip mobility, and footwork. Mitchell’s ball skills and finishing ability with either hand also seem elite. He can separate with his dribble in all directions, get wherever he wants to go, and pull up for a clean look, no matter who is guarding him. Even though he doesn’t dunk in traffic, he’s not really a below the rim player…his vertical is said in the 40″ range.

    Now is that enough for a #19 pick? No. But combine it with his b-ball IQ, work ethic, improvement of things besides shooting, and contributions to winning in Baylor’s 28-2 championship season and he become exactly the kind of player you take a chance on outside the lottery. His age doesn’t bother me…if anything, you will know right away whether he’s going to pan out and won’t waste his entire rookie deal waiting.

    I think he has a legitimate chance to be a Tim Hardaway/Kyle Lowry-level player, maybe with somewhat better D and not as good on O, but in that genre. Not enough to trade up for him, but at #19? Definitely worth the gamble. Because if he actually CAN shoot something like he did last year, he’s a potential max player who is earning peanuts for 3 years of his early prime.

  62. Biles has put up with a lot of shit in her short life, stress/trauma builds up. Like she clearly at some point possessed the mental toughness to be a champion or whatever. She won events with kidney stones. I guess she reached her breaking point. Jordan quit basketball for 2 years. Lebron had to go to Miami one year. Derrick Rose had that meltdown playing for us a few years ago. etc

    DeRozan would be okay if it’s a short deal, he’s on the wrong side of 30 and he’s got a lot of flaws but he’s a pretty decent player overall and he’s good at doing something we’re bad at.

  63. Re: Simone Biles, she’s amazing, she’s a great champion, and she certainly knows what’s at stake, the last 4 years she prepared herself for this moment, and she’s been there before. So if she feels the mental part is not there, and that for her safety it’s better to pull out, i think it’s hard to question her. Mental health is a serious question and i can’t understand why in sports they aren’t doing much more on it. We had the Naomi Osaka vs. Roland Garros problem recently, and there’s probably much more, it just didn’t reach national news status.

  64. No DeRozan, please. We need good 3P shooters. Guys that rely on 2P we already have.

  65. The Biles stuff is fascinating. She’s being treated with kid gloves and shown enormous empathy. It’s fair to acknowledge that this is not the normal way we have treated athletes. But then in the next breath, it’s fair to wonder… why isn’t it?

    I recall, for instance, the game 7 in 1994 against Chicago. Patrick Ewing had, I think, zero points at halftime. Can you imagine if he had quit right then? And talked about not being able to nap earlier in the day? He’d have been crucified.

    Is that right, though? Maybe we as a society are a bunch of cunts who have put too much pressure on athletes who are just trying to have fun and make a living.

    Two similar incidents I can think of are Scottie Pippen and his migraine in game 7 and Ronaldo having panic attacks before the 98 World Cup final. Neither was shown much compassion.

  66. Beyond mental health being just as delicate and important as physical health, there’s also the very specific and dangerous nature of gymnastics. If Biles isn’t feeling at her most confident and sharp, she risks serious injury in almost any event she could still try. If she’s not up for it, I have ZERO problem with her withdrawing. She’s the GOAT, and she knows her own body and mind.

  67. The case to take Trey Murphy with one of our picks (if he’s there, of course).

    Last season at Virginia, Trey Murphy III became just the second player in ACC history (min. 100 FG attempts) to shoot:
    – above 50% from the floor
    – above 40% from 3PT range
    – above 90% from the FT line
    The only player in this elusive club is Kyrie Irving for Duke in 2010-11
    https://twitter.com/TommyBeer/status/1420063746563653637

  68. Biles is also at the end of her career. She’s 24, which is pretty old for a gymnast, and she has dominated the sport beyond anybody’s wildest imagination for a really long time. If she doesn’t feel like risking her health to win more golds at this fakakta Olympics, that’s fine by me.

    This whole Olympics shouldn’t even be happening, and I’d be fine if the Olympics in general went away for quite a long time. They’re coming to my city in seven years, which seems pretty ridiculous considering we have about 65,000 homeless people living on our freeway offramps and in our parks. Maybe solve that problem first, THEN think about bringing the fucking Olympics here!

    Fuck the Olympics. Did I mention that I hate the Olympics?

  69. Hubert:
    The Biles stuff is fascinating. She’s being treated with kid gloves and shown enormous empathy. It’s fair to acknowledge that this is not the normal way we have treated athletes. But then in the next breath, it’s fair to wonder… why isn’t it?

    I recall, for instance, the game 7 in 1994 against Chicago. Patrick Ewing had, I think, zero points at halftime. Can you imagine if he had quit right then? And talked about not being able to nap earlier in the day? He’d have been crucified.

    Is that right, though? Maybe we as a society are a bunch of cunts who have put too much pressure on athletes who are just trying to have fun and make a living.

    Two similar incidents I can think of are Scottie Pippen and his migraine in game 7 and Ronaldo having panic attacks before the 98 World Cup final. Neither was shown much compassion.

    Putting this into the social media/ESPN/Twitter grist and then hating on people who don’t show “enough” compassion is the whole entire point of the episode. I’m absolutely, positively in favor of showing compassion for people with mental health issues; that said, mental health issues in athletes sure seem to be popping up more in the last roughly year or so. (I don’t put a real migrane into this bucket, although it’s ultimate source could be mental.) Naomi Osaka and Simone Biles aren’t exactly small potatoes.

    And even with THAT said, yes, people’s projections onto athletes and imagining them as superheroes and psychically needing the superhero they purportedly represent is ridiculous beyond words.

    Twitter and social media suck. Once we internalize that ineluctable reality, moments of clarity quickly ensue.

  70. I’m fine with her saying “fuck it,” too. (*) She should just say that then, rather than trying to fall seamlessly into a victim group and tweetfest and turning it into some referendum on “wider issues.” Not everything an athlete does is some kind of measuring stick of “society” as it’s almost always cast as being.

    Her saying “fuck it” also has the advantage of actually being true, too.

    (*) I mean, who knows, maybe that is essentially what she said and her words are being twisted, taken out of context, etc., to be fuel for the fire. I haven’t seen a verbatim transcript, nor does it seem worth the bother. Guaranteed though there will be people out there valorizing her for her “courage” and hating on anyone who doesn’t agree. Likely with a bit of “you’re a sexist and racist” thrown in for good measure. We’re pretty much at the point where you could basically hire a bot to write the stories and the tweets; that’s how rote it’s all become.

  71. Is she still competing in the individual competition?

    The reaction has been refreshingly kind and supportive and I am here for it.

    Hope we see her out there again

  72. Below are some key dates for the 2021-22 season.
    • Aug. 2: Teams can begin negotiating with free agents (6 p.m. ET)
    • Aug. 6: Teams can begin signing free agents (12:01 p.m. ET)
    • Aug. 8-17: MGM Resorts NBA Summer League in Las Vegas
    • Sept. 28, 2021: Training camp begins
    • Oct. 19, 2021: Regular season begins
    • April 10, 2022: Regular season concludes
    • April 12-15, 2022: Play-In Tournament
    • April 16, 2022: Playoffs begin
    • June 2, 2022: NBA Finals begin
    • June 19, 2022: Game 7 of NBA Finals (if necessary)
    • June 23, 2022: NBA Draft

  73. E, all merc’d out: Guaranteed though there will be people out there valorizing her for her “courage” and hating on anyone who doesn’t agree. Likely with a bit of “you’re a sexist and racist” thrown in for good measure.

    ok so

    We’re pretty much at the point where you could basically hire a bot to write the stories and the tweets; that’s how rote it’s all become.

    but also you see the irony in you writing (i.e. inventing) the above “guaranteed” and “likely” story about the reaction to the reaction, right

  74. Anything that will help encourage people to handle their mental health better is a positive in my book. Maybe Biles doesnt want to be the face of such a movement but other athletes will be encouraged by her and Naomi in the future.

  75. Deadspin, headline “Simone Biles just made the most impressive move of her career”:

    ….

    As a young Black woman at the height of her profession, her decision to take a break and show her vulnerability is both inspiring and heroic.

    Bot, or real?

  76. I do wonder if equating “I felt nervous today” with issues like Osaka’s lifelong anxiety is somewhat trivializing to those who suffer with mental health issues. Everyone has stressors. Not everyone who is stressed can be diagnosed with a mental health issue. Without denying her the compassion she’s entitled to, I do think it’s fair to consider she might be using “mental health” as a shield to protect herself from criticism and illicit praise for an act that is normally shamed in sports.

  77. **Dinwiddie sure since he’s coming off an injury but Derozan is about to turn 32. Don’t know why he’d agree to a 1 year prove it deal. I would think he’s looking for one last big contract.**

    DeRozan may just not get that much in FA for multiple years. It’d be just throwing $30M/1yr at him while others are giving like $15M or 20M for 2.

    DeRozan can’t shoot 3s, but we need scorers and PGs. He can arguably do both for us, assuming Rose doesn’t come back cheap…. even then maybe.

    It’s not the endgame, and in the meantime our offense sucks.

  78. Yes, turning every trial and tribulation of life into “mental health” trivializes real mental health issues. Doing that should sentence one to reading something like David Foster Wallace’s various descriptions of actual depression.

    On Tuesday the greatest gymnast of all time pulled herself from the greatest stage of her career. After one event in the team final, a flubbed vault, Simone Biles told her teammates and coaches that she could not continue. Her status for the rest of the Olympics remains in doubt.

    Cameras caught her telling team doctor Marcia Faustin, “I don’t want to do it. I’m done.”

    That pretty much sounds like “Fuck it” to me. Makes perfect sense.

    Biles alternated between tears and laughter afterward. She said she was not physically injured. “I just don’t trust myself as much as I used to,” she said. “I don’t know if it’s age, but I’m a little bit more nervous when I do gymnastics. I feel like I’m also not having as much fun, and I know that”—she began to cry—”this Olympic Games I wanted to do it for myself, and I was still doing it for other people, so that just hurts my heart badly, that doing what I love has been taken away.”

    That pretty much sounds like precisely the words great athletes use when they face their athletic mortality. Nothing really “mental health” about it at all.

    Later she did briefly say:

    “I have to do what’s right for me and focus on my mental health,” she said afterward. “That’s why I decided to take a step back.”

    But that sounds more like throwaway than anything else. Without more, this isn’t really a “mental health” story, just as suspected. If she competes in the individual events, it becomes even less of one. She’s facing the end of athletic greatness; that has mental impacts on a lot of great athletes. Doesn’t seem to be anything there beyond that. It was turned into “mental health” so it could be clickbait.

  79. Naomi Osaka, for instance, was working in a hostile work environment that was willfully ignorant of a diagnosed condition and coerced her to perform activities that were harmful to her.

    These are not the same things.

    Of course, Simone Biles can stop competing for any reason she wants. And she doesn’t owe us an explanation.

  80. Beyond even the silly media requirements, which are only there so the sponsor’s background can be shown with the player, Serena Williams and the fans were ass to Naomi Osaka after she won Flushing Meadows 2018 and she explicitly points to that episode as the one that got her anxiety rolling. The latter, naturally, gets little attention.

  81. Hubert: somewhat trivializing to those who suffer with mental health issues

    I’m guessing that Larry Nassar didn’t exactly leave her without some share of mental health issues.

    If anything, the act of quitting strikes me as an assertion that these contests are arbitrary, having no significance beyond the heroism-and-valor moral import we ascribe to them. I’m okay with that.

    Doing that should sentence one to reading something like David Foster Wallace’s various descriptions of actual depression.

    I can’t tell if this is retributive or restorative justice to you

  82. The games between national teams channel nationalist passions away from war and political belligerence and there’s probably a bit of that even with city teams, and participating in organized sports is pretty fun and self-challenging, but beyond that there’s not much there beyond the stories and the myths. Even those aren’t terrible, but myths is what they are.

    There’s no moral to be read into Biles’s experience or acts and they stand for nothing broader. She’s at the end of her run as a fantastic athlete; everyone in that position mourns the loss in their own way. Personally, like all single-minded athletes, she’s not as deep or thoughtful or special as fanboys make her out to be. There’s no shame in that whatsoever. It’s always been beyond bizarre that people, with no evidence and a bunch of evidence to the contrary, project special civilian superpowers onto someone just because they’re a great basketball player or whatnot. (Unless they’re making money from it, in which case it at least makes a modicum of sense.)

  83. If anything, the act of quitting strikes me as an assertion that these contests are arbitrary, having no significance beyond the heroism-and-valor moral import we ascribe to them. I’m okay with that.

    I agree whole heartedly.

    But is she, after the fact, invoking mental health to shield herself from criticism for this bold assertion?

  84. I think you have to distinguish serious mental health issues that require medication and/or regular doctor’s care from not being able to cope with the pressures of competition, fear of failure, fear of being judged harshly and criticized by peers and media if you fail etc..

    They are two very different things.

    One is a serious matter that could impact an athlete’s ability to perform and the other is the very attribute great practice players have to try to overcome to prove they are champions.

    I know a great musician that quit trumpet after one appearance at Carnegie Hall. The stress and fear of a bad performance overwhelmed him. He took up something else, became great at that and then quit that for the same reason. Other than that, he was mostly fine. He lacked “something” but was not mentally ill.

    Without details, it’s hard to know what we are dealing with in the recent cases.

  85. “I feel like I’m also not having as much fun, and I know that”

    Respect the Soul

  86. Hubert: I agree whole heartedly.

    But is she, after the fact, invoking mental health to shield herself from criticism for this bold assertion?

    I don’t think she really “invoked” mental health; that’s my interpretation of what she said, at least. She mentioned it, in passing, after saying a bunch of other stuff about her thoughts.

    “Mental health” was invoked and overlaid on the events by others, for clickbait reasons. The fact that she’s a Black woman only goes to make the clickbait better. That’s today’s media/political ecosystem/economy.

  87. Ok so I read a bit more, and I have to admit I am guilty of conflating the media takes with Biles’ own words. Biles was as startlingly honest as anyone I’ve ever seen, and didn’t seem to be hiding behind anything.

  88. Berman of the Post suggests we may be zeroing in on Miles McBride and Ziaire Williams. I’ll take that combo. One high floor role player, and one gamble on greatness..

  89. Final Board part 2:

    11. Keon Johnson – Devin Vassell / Justise Winslow
    12. Moses Moody – Klay Thompson/Mikal Bridges
    13. Charles Bassey – Jarret Allen/Serge Ibaka
    14. Josh Giddey – Boris Diaw/Kyle Anderson/Tyrese Haliburton
    15. Ayo Dosunmu – Malcom Brogdon/Jrue Holiday with half the defense

    Very solid group… there’s some breakout possibilities with some of them but more or less these are roleplayers that can be really good ones in the right place… in the case of Bassey and Dosunmu they provide great value wherever they land as they provide a surprising amount of athleticism.. dimensions.. and production which you just normally don’t get that kind of package in the late first let alone In the second rd… In the case of Moody.. Johnson and Giddey I think most observers have pegged them about how i do.. which they’re solid late lotto picks which present the typical amount of risk / production for those draft positions…

    16. Tre Mann – Jamal Murray/Darius Garland
    17. Jaden Springer – Marcus Smart/Terry Rozier
    18. Franz Wagner – Detlef Shrempf/Otto Porter
    19. Nah’shon Hyland – 120% version of Immanuel Quickley
    20. Chris Duarte – Will Barton/Danny Green

    Wagner in particular seems kind of crazy to be in the lottery discussion considering how little scoring he projects to have but he does provide enough skills to contribute in various ways.. he could flop but I would bet on a long if quiet career… Mann and Springer are solid picks esp in the late first as they’re projected.. Springer has youth and production if unspectacular eye tests while Mann passes the eye test but has a lingering bad freshman year behind him… Hyland is the better version of IQ … Duarte was underrated heading into the process but now the craziness surrounding his name probably makes him a bit overrated… nobody ever lost much passing up 24 yo’s in the draft… he’s solid though older =/= nba ready =/= safe pick as we’ve learned with obi…

  90. Ziare Williams numbers scream Kevin Knox with a bit of passing and shotblocking, but somehow worse at scoring. Guess Knox at 19 wouldn’t have been so terrible.

  91. Michael Jordan, the ur-competitor, the GOAT, undefeated champion also quit in the middle of his prime because he couldn’t take it mentally anymore. We talked about it differently back then, but that’s what happened. He needed a mental health break after pushing himself like a psychopath for years.

  92. I wouldn’t be surprised if all the hype about how good Biles was and what a lock to win she was also got to her.

  93. Early Bird:
    Ziare Williams numbers scream Kevin Knox with a bit of passing and shotblocking, but somehow worse at scoring. Guess Knox at 19 wouldn’t have been so terrible.

    Williams also had the year from hell, Covid-wise, was a much more highly-touted recruit than Knox, and doesn’t seem to have the same clumsiness and slow processing speeds that have plagued our giraffe. I’m just saying that we have three picks between 19 and 32. If the team wants to spend one of those on a guy they believe has a higher ceiling than he showed at Stanford, and devote the other two to McBride/Bassey types who project to at least be rotation players, I’m cool with that.

  94. Pelton usually marches to the beat of his own drum draftwise and is usually worth it to see what he has to say… he has one of the best international models… second only to layne vashro who’s now with the nuggets… the rest of the model is soso if below average performance wise but he has some really crazy outputs on it which is usually interesting to learn from…

  95. Also a-fuckin’-men to that, JK47. We live in a fucking shithole country when we have pork for Olympic buildings but can’t figure out how to house our most vulnerable.

  96. Sengun was really good in a good league at 18, but I have no idea what to make of his defense. I’d certainly rather have him than Ziaire Williams, who was straight up bad in the Pac-12. Williams shouldn’t be a first round pick. I know he didn’t play a ton of games, and there was covid etc but he was below average at basically everything.

  97. “ Michael Jordan, the ur-competitor, the GOAT, undefeated champion also quit in the middle of his prime because he couldn’t take it mentally anymore. We talked about it differently back then, but that’s what happened. He needed a mental health break after pushing himself like a psychopath for years.”

    I don’t think anyone would have begrudged her even a little for sitting out these olympics/retiring. But there’s a pretty huge difference between that and pulling out halfway through the finals of the team competition. There were other women out there who have sacrificed a monumental amount to be there and she completely hung them out to dry in the biggest moment of their careers. She doesn’t owe us an explanation certainly but she sure as hell owes them one, and if her explanation was really “fuck it, it’s just a game” and you were one of the other women who spent their whole life building to that moment, how would you feel?

  98. I watched her vault just now. As the commentators explained it, she lost all sense of where she was in the air in the middle of it.

    Which seems a little worse than getting the yips.

  99. djphan:
    Pelton usually marches to the beat of his own drum draftwise and is usually worth it to see what he has to say… he has one of the best international models… second only to layne vashro who’s now with the nuggets… the rest of the model is soso if below average performance wise but he has some really crazy outputs on it which is usually interesting to learn from…

    Interesting. Maybe it’s worth trading up to take Sengun. Do you know roughly where he’s expected to go in terms of pick number?

  100. Michael Jordan “quit” in the middle of his prime because his father was murdered and he was burnt out.

    And if you believe the conspiracy theory (as I do) then he was told to sit it out by Stern because his gambling addiction was very bad and the NBA was lowkey suspending him, especially when rumor got out that his father’s murder was retaliation for his refusal to pay his Mafia gambling debts.

  101. And if you believe the conspiracy theory (as I do) then he was told to sit it out by Stern because his gambling addiction was very bad and the NBA was lowkey suspending him, especially when rumor got out that his father’s murder was retaliation for his refusal to pay his Mafia gambling debts.

    You need to figure out some way to work Bat Boy into this conspiracy. Also chemtrails. Definitely chemtrails.

  102. I’ve seen Sengun mocked all over the place. My not very deeply researched sense is that he’s been moving up as the draft gets closer

  103. it’s probably worth it to trade up in a vacuum for Sengun.. but we’re probably at the point where we should consider fit and with Randle and Mitch it’s a tough ask for Sengun to succeed here especially if we just stick him in the corner and completely ignore what he does best…

    i can’t really see the spurs pass on him… so maybe that’s the lowest he goes but that’s just a complete guess… i think there’s going to be at least 1-2 guys that will drop that are getting mocked pretty high… the narrative on Sengun.. if you trust the numbers.. is completely mindblowing so if you’re an analytically inclined front office it’s going to take a lot of effort to pass on Sengun which mitigates him dropping too far…

    but stranger things have happened… and i’m pretty confident we’ll have multiple opportunities at really really good players at all of our picks as it stands.. it’s really setup unbelievably well for us this year.. i just hope we can capitalize…

  104. just watching a Sharife Cooper passing highlight reel on youtube and Mitch would average like 10 dunks a game with that kid

  105. Charlotte really needs a center and San Antonio picks after them. If he’s that good you’re going to have to be top ten (i.e. above Charlotte) to get him. That would be expensive for us and you’re right about the fit question for the Knicks. So I guess I don’t see it happening even though he looks very good to me.

  106. I watched her vault just now. As the commentators explained it, she lost all sense of where she was in the air in the middle of it.

    Which seems a little worse than getting the yips.

    what’s crazy is, it don’t even look that bad to me…you could tell something was off the other day when she went flying off the mat during the floor exercise, it was like – wtf???

    life under a microscope though, i’m interested to see if she can pull it together by sunday, highly doubt she competes on thursday…who knows what type anxiety medications are legal for olympic sports, and, is that even a sport where you can safely perform while taking that type medication…

    who knows, her continued exposure and the telling of her story may have a significant positive impact for years in youth sports…hard to imagine the nassar crime is the only of its kind…

  107. @ShamsCharania
    Final: Beginning with the 2021-22 season, the NBA will implement new rules to reduce non-basketball moves used to draw fouls, sources tell @TheAthletic
    @Stadium

  108. kevin5318:
    @ShamsCharania
    Final: Beginning with the 2021-22 season, the NBA will implement new rules to reduce non-basketball moves used to draw fouls, sources tell @TheAthletic@Stadium

    James Harden and Trey Young,
    You may begin whining.

    IQ,
    Time to learn another move.

  109. In some ways, I think this may be good for IQ. There were too many possessions this year where he was clearly foul-hunting rather than trying to get the best possible shot or play. And we’ve seen that he’s already excellent at the former and promising at the latter, so anything that forces him to focus on those ahead of HardenBall will help his development.

  110. “Ziare Williams numbers scream Kevin Knox with a bit of passing and shotblocking, but somehow worse at scoring. Guess Knox at 19 wouldn’t have been so terrible.”

    He’s more athletic and a better defender than Knox for sure.

    “Also a-fuckin’-men to that, JK47. We live in a fucking shithole country when we have pork for Olympic buildings but can’t figure out how to house our most vulnerable.”

    That’s like every state in all of history though. Expecting all pork to go away until all major problems are solved seems like an unrealistic goal. So does expecting people to stop watching sports/arts/entertainment. We spend billions on the NBA, billions on movies, etc. All that money could be more productively used to solve real problems, but “no discretionary spend until we solve poverty” is not an attainable standard.

    Further, it’s not like there’s a consensus on solving this problem. Conservatives and liberals actively oppose new housing construction in many areas of the US. As someone who’s attended zoning + community board meetings in NYC, there’s a lot of progressives fighting tooth and nail to prevent significant new housing construction in the city.

    “I don’t think anyone would have begrudged her even a little for sitting out these olympics/retiring. But there’s a pretty huge difference between that and pulling out halfway through the finals of the team competition.”

    Yeah, seems pretty tough. Trying to imagine Brady / Lebron pulling out of the Superbowl / FInals halfway through, or even any regular job if someone stopped working in the middle of the organization’s key event. Hard to wrap my mind around. Obviously if you’re not fit mentally at the moment you have to stop, but you should try to do what you can to continue otherwise.

  111. Fixing homelessness in a city like Los Angeles is not solved by simply building housing. There’s no one approach that is a magic bullet.

    Our resources are strained here though, and the Olympics are another unnecessary strain on those resources. Eric Garcetti has a lot in common with his near-namesake Tommy Carcetti: he has his eyes on a bigger prize, and bringing the Olympics to Los Angeles is something that he thought would serve those ambitions.

    He’s bailing out of here to take an ambassador job before the shit show gets worse. His dad sucked too.

  112. debating whether to sign up for peacock (it’s free) just to watch usa versus iran basketball game…

  113. I just wanted to point out that Ziaire’s numbers are the really bad type of bad. He’ll be better than Knox, but the numbers on Knox were concerning long before we saw him play everyday.

  114. “Fixing homelessness in a city like Los Angeles is not solved by simply building housing. There’s no one approach that is a magic bullet. Our resources are strained here though, and the Olympics are another unnecessary strain on those resources.”

    Yeah, I sorta wish I could re-write my previous post as it obfuscated a couple primary points:

    1. I agree the Olympics are a bad use of state resources, as are all publicly funded sports stadiums.
    2. I don’t think it’s appropriate to compare to homelessness, which is mostly not an issue due to lack of funds. It’s due to lack of agreement on causes and solutions (and some people not particularly caring to solve it).

    I do think there’s a research showing housing IS a huge component of homelessness though. It’s not the only problem, but is a primary cause. And a big obstacle to building lots of cheap, affordable housing are the building/zoning policies in places like NY and LA. Beyond that you need treatment for addiction, support services, education, etc.

  115. Just because we elect morons who continue to ignore problems like homelessness doesn’t mean we “live in a shithole country” . This self loathing about the USA, the flag, and our history has reached epic and ludicrous proportions. If it’s such a shit hole why are millions of immigrants coming here every year? I live in San Diego and trust me we have more than our share of homeless folks on the streets here. It’s a big mental health issue that is certainly not being addressed adequately. So because of that no city in the US should host the Olympics? Got it, glad I checked in to this site tonight for some Knicks news.

  116. but stranger things have happened… and i’m pretty confident we’ll have multiple opportunities at really really good players at all of our picks as it stands.. it’s really setup unbelievably well for us this year.. i just hope we can capitalize…

    I used to get so into the draft. I legit believe I saw more footage of Porzingis in Europe than some NBA GMs. Even then, I was totally off on the sea-shift that made Okafor useless and D’Angelo Russell showed none of the maturity he had shown in college (I still can’t believe that I thought that that dude’s attitude was a major plus for him!).

    But after I was so into the Knox draft, where I knew all of the top dozen dudes, like, backwards and forward, just to see the Knicks pass up both of the guys I had been dreaming of for the Knicks (Mikal Bridges long term, but Porter Jr. the day of the draft because it was clear that he would be available at the Knicks’ pick. I had assumed he was going top five still before the news came out about his awful medicals) for some shitty shot in the dark pick, I sort of gave up on paying attention to the draft. I mean, I still pay enough attention to get a decent idea (I watched Zion play a lot, obviously) but after getting burned for so many years I stopped paying attention nearly as well as I used to, and because of that, and the vagaries of the draft system (where your ability to predict who will be picked where drops precipitously for picks #12-24 usually) I really don’t have a strong take on who I want them to take (I am sorry, Z-Man, I promise I am not trying to avoid taking a stance on a player!), but there are a lot of players I think look promising, so I agree, I am really quite pumped about these two picks. I think the Knicks will have some good guys to pick from and so long as they don’t make some crazy reach at #21, I am totally prepared to support whatever choice they make as it is hard to say who is the right call at #19 and #21, but the talent is definitely there, so I just hope that they actually use the two picks, at the very least.

  117. @Alan –> I would be very happy with that draft.

    As fun as Sharife would be, he probably is still a backup PG given his size and shooting, and I think he’s a pretty poor fit with Julius. Swing for the fences with Zaire, and take two dudes who can defend and shoot (And playmake in the case of McBride) at 21 and 32. I like it.

  118. I would also not mind at all getting Joel Ayayi at 32. Dude just seems like a great basketball player, is unreal statistically, and if one believes in point Julius and secondary ball handler RJ, would be a really great fit as a do-everything glue-guy. Or he could play next to True Point Guard as the 2, play RJ at the 3.

  119. Brian, totally respect that position. And there is a huge difference between “paper trading” and having your job or your money on the line when putting pen to paper and commiting for or against a certain pick at a certain spot. I mean, who would feel comfortable passing over Cade/Green/Mobley/Suggs and telling an owner to pick Sengun first in the real world?

    As to Davion, I don’t think he fits into that category at #19, and the KB board is unanimous that he’s not worthy of a trade-up. And once you’re outside the lottery it’s such a crap shoot that folks should temper their opinions, which they have mostly done.

  120. Frank, my ! wasn’t so much about Grimes over Cooper as Wasserman’s assertion that Cooper’s stock has plummeted that much.

  121. When the summer doldrums hit I think we DEFINITELY need a Knickerblogger thread on zoning. Would be lit.

    I am super interested to see what happens on Thursday but like Brian have no strong feelings on the draft this year. Usually I have someone I am sweet on but going to the prom by myself at the moment.

  122. Funny how there’s a lot more intrigue about whether we will trade up or out than there is about who we would select at #19 and 21. Assuming that Davion and Duarte are off the board, I’d be fine with any combination of Butler, Williams, McBride, Grimes, Cooper, Keon, Kispert or Jackson. Probably least enthusiastic about Cooper and Kispert, but all of those guys are in the let’s wait and see camp.

  123. I also don’t think that Jackson is a great pick because it would mean that we’re investing draft stock in a position that can be filled on the cheap.

  124. If we keep all three of our real picks (58 is basically nothing), and if two of them go to playmakers/shooters, and if this front office believes the drop off from Jackson or Garuba to bigs who could be available at 32 like Bassey or Queta is bigger than the dropoff from, say, Butler or McBride to Ayo and Grimes, then it makes some sense to take a big with one of our firsts. But I would still go with guard/wing help with those higher picks and trust Kenny Payne and company to coach up the best big man available at 32.

  125. I’d take Jalen Johnson over Ziaire as my upside pick, his non-shooting numbers are insane. Obviously, there’s some character concerns though.

    I could live with drafting Ziaire at 19, but he wouldn’t be my choice.

  126. But after I was so into the Knox draft, where I knew all of the top dozen dudes, like, backwards and forward, just to see the Knicks pass up both of the guys I had been dreaming of for the Knicks (Mikal Bridges long term, but Porter Jr. the day of the draft because it was clear that he would be available at the Knicks’ pick. I had assumed he was going top five still before the news came out about his awful medicals) for some shitty shot in the dark pick, I sort of gave up on paying attention to the draft.

    to keep sane after all those terrible years.. the draft was and is a great respite… there’s a lot of hope in the draft and hope is a good thing…. and then usually when the knicks pick come around… immediate disappointment…

    but it’s really fun in between….

  127. McBride is another Jevon Carter.. literally… lives out on the perimeter… a dog on defense… not really a pg…. definitely a type nurtured by Bob Huggins… and sometimes that’s fine in the 2nd rd.. but the first you’d have to really hate the other picks to settle for a guy like that….

    and with ziaire williams you’d probably have to hate your first rd picks in order to make that one..

  128. I’m with Brian on this. I remember being so caught up in the Knox draft, stressing out between SGA and Mikal – who should we pick, who should we pick? – and then the Knox pick broke me. With RJ, I checked out Clarke because of the trade down option, and I was mildly interested last year when we had a higher pick, but this year there are way too many possibilities to keep track of. We may end up making our picks; we may end up making no picks.

  129. I’d love to trade down with Houston and have 21, 23, 24, and 32. One of those four will hit!

    Butler, Sharpe, Grimes, Primo.

  130. Zairie is like a poor man’s Cam Reddish. If we wanted to waste a 2nd round pick on him I guess I wouldn’t complain much, but if you’re gambling on upside why not go with a guy who is at least good at something. Like (just as an example) Cam Thomas is the kind of player I hate, but he’s good at scoring. Or that Mitchell kid is good at defense. Zairie was. . .a pretty good free throw shooter.

  131. Ziaire is truly becoming the next kevin knox: he’s good at nothing and there’s a lot of signals that we might actually take him.

  132. Cam Reddish looked pretty good in the playoffs

    He played 92 minutes.

  133. The Honorable Cock Jowles: He played 92 minutes.

    So his most recent small sample under the most intense pressure imaginable was 92 minutes of all-star play on both ends. He turns 22 on September 1. But yeah, he’s toast.

  134. I think the Williams/Knox comparisons are a bit unfair to Williams. Make no mistake: Williams was a bad player on Stanford last year, but unlike Knox, who was also a bad player statistically with bad tape, Williams’ tape should leave you with more room for optimism. He has the kind of stroke, handle, and playmaking chops where if you look past the ghastly shooting percentages you see the makings of a prototypical NBA wing, one who can score at two to three levels and can switch on the defensive end (he’s a genuinely good defender at the 3 if he bulks up). Williams has infinitely better coordination and processing speed than Knox, who has always looked like a giraffe on skates. And, furthermore, Williams at least has an alibi for his poor productivity (which was almost entirely due to his horrible shooting), due to COVID and a death in his family, an alibi that Knox didn’t have. I think we’re underselling just how bad of a pick Knox was at the time–he shouldn’t have been picked within the first 45 players in that draft!

    Williams’ real issue is that he’s allergic to contact because of his lack of strength–he shot well at the rim at Stanford (54%) but barely ever got there and settled for jumpers–there’s very few easy buckets in his diet so far. All that said, Williams is a reasonable late first high-upside play, in my opinion. Would I pick him at #19? probably not, but I defer to the Knicks brain trust until further notice, since they possess information I don’t. I think it’s understandable to be a bit more risk-tolerant when the guy you’re picking profiles as a genuine first or second option if he hits his upside, since that’s the rarest role in the NBA to find. This was the same logic used for the Knox pick, but there was no universe in which Knox could be a first or second option, and I think there is one in which Ziaire ends up there. That doesn’t mean I want him–I’d rather find that guy in FA, but I can’t blame teams for being attracted to it despite the horrible shooting.

  135. if you’re looking for upside in this draft….. someone like josh primo is probably a bit more interesting… ziaire is going to be turning 20… which isn’t exactly 40.. but these guys are essentially sophomores….. and to fall completely flat as a soph in college just doesn’t bode well for them since it just gets immensely harder in the nba… you really need some intel that something happened to them or that it was some sort of fluke to be gambling on a first rd pick or you probably have another kevin knox on your hand…

    josh primo will start the season at age 18 and won’t turn 19 until December making him one of the youngest guys drafted in the one and done era ever… that also makes him one of the youngest freshman in the nation which makes a soso freshman year look a lot better…. sort of a similar situation to kira lewis last year (also from alabama) only primo was widely expected to return for his soph year but surprisingly stayed in the draft…

    ziaire didn’t really have anything going for him that was earned… it’s really all about his dimensions and his shooting ability.. but he just didn’t shoot well from anywhere… even at the line it’s sort of mediocre for a guy known for shooting… and eventually they need to make layups which he also struggled with…

    there are situations where you should be ok taking a gamble on ziaire but it takes a lot of faith to pass up on a lot of other potential solid contributors to gamble on him and others with much more theoretical upside…. if he was a sophomore with two years on his resume like this one he would be long forgotten and no chance of being drafted at all and so you would have to ask yourself how much are you anchoring on his performance as a high school senior… an old one at that…

    that’s tough to reconcile with me…

  136. This self loathing about the USA, the flag, and our history has reached epic and ludicrous proportions.

    cRitIcAl RAcE tHeRy aM I RiGHt

    So his most recent small sample under the most intense pressure imaginable was 92 minutes of all-star play on both ends. He turns 22 on September 1. But yeah, he’s toast.

    Yeah, remember that one playoff series by Jerome James? Isiah, is that you?

    92 fucking minutes, bro. Squint harder.

  137. Cam Reddish looked pretty good in the playoffs

    If Cam shoots 65% from 3 going forward I will admit I was wrong about him

  138. Ziaire Williams is terrible. There would be no justification for picking him any time before 58, and if it happens I’ll tell you right now I will not be “giving him a chance” or whatever. Sure, I’ll be happy if I’m wrong, but I am Knox-level confident that I will not be.

    This was always the Knicksiest possibility in the whole draft and it was pleasantly surprising that there wasn’t much of any smoke about it. So naturally, it sure seems to have gained a lot of momentum right around draft time.

  139. All that said, Williams is a reasonable late first high-upside play,

    very spicy take from silky! i am going to disagree for all the aforementioned reasons but i have to ask…

    do you also feel the same way about brandon boston? because to my eye they had very similar years and were bad for very similar reasons…

    there’s plenty of precedent for teams to draft highly regarded recruits who fall flat …. even the spurs did it with lonnie walker… but even they have limits to their development program… sometimes people just stink….

  140. I see this as essentially a 4-tier first round. I don’t understand how any team would hesitate to take Cade at #1. To me he’s head and shoulders above Green, Mobley and Suggs, who are all tier 2 guys in my book. That would be my top 4 in that order, but I don’t feel confident about the order of 2-4 at all. Then you have a bunch of “pick your poison” guys in Tier 3…Barnes, Sengun, Kuminga, Bouknight, Moody, Giddy, maybe even Wagner and Duarte…who I think are really tough to order. After that, you have a bunch of guys that are 12-35 who all have reasons to pick at 12 and reasons to pick at 35. It will be hard for me to get too bent out of shape if the Knicks stay put no matter who they draft.

  141. The Honorable Cock Jowles:

    Yeah, remember that one playoff series by Jerome James? Isiah, is that you?

    92 fucking minutes, bro. Squint harder.

    Dude, take a chill pill. All I said was that I wouldn’t write him off just yet. Is that outlandish enough for you to be a massive dick about it? (DRed was at least only a tiny dick.)

  142. Our french prince turns 23 today, who would you pick on the 2021 Draft, 24yo Chris Duarte or 23yo Frank? :D

    There is absolutely zero chance Frank, today, could average 20-5-3-2/40 on good percentages in the NCAA.

  143. Give me Jock Landale over any of these guys, tore up Italy last night…

    Australia would be a pretty saucy squad if Simmons were missing free throws for them….

  144. Saying Ziaire reminds you of Kevin Knox is an insult to Kevin Knox. If the Knicks draft that guy it’s time to recalibrate the expectations about this front office.

    I’m trying to find one thing to like in his game and I’m drawing a blank.

  145. djphan: very spicy take from silky! i am going to disagree for all the aforementioned reasons but i have to ask…

    do you also feel the same way about brandon boston? because to my eye they had very similar years and were bad for very similar reasons…

    there’s plenty of precedent for teams to draft highly regarded recruits who fall flat …. even the spurs did it with lonnie walker… but even they have limits to their development program… sometimes people just stink….

    I also think Boston is a reasonable late first high upside play, but I think I like Ziaire a bit better because he has more shake and craft to his game, which I think is important for wings if you want to project them becoming high-usage offensive players (you generally either need elite bounce off one foot, elite rim penetration, or elite pull up game a la Durant to profile as a high usage guy in the NBA as far as I can tell). But yes, they’re quite similar players: long, athletic, rangy wings who have good mechanics and playmaking but really struggled to put the ball in the basket their first year. I agree with you that I wouldn’t want to see Boston or Williams’ name called on draft night before #32 (and that Primo profiles as just as good of a high-upside pick), but I wanted to swim against the KB tide a bit and try to show why we shouldn’t be totally be out on Williams in the way we all (justifiably) were with Knox. He’d probably be a bad pick at 19 barring some special info, but I don’t think it’s nearly as bad as picking Knox with Bridges and SGA on the table, especially given the crapshoot nature of this year’s mid first. Put another way, I think there’s a path for both Boston and Williams, whereas Knox was just so, so, so bad in every respect and anyone with eyes and access to SportsReference could see that.

  146. I’ll put all my cards on the table regarding Ziaire Williams. For most other prospects, I did at least some film study and/or intentionally caught some of their games. Ziaire’s numbers were so, so bad I basically considered them disqualifying and thus haven’t looked at much.

    He’s still somewhere (low) on my board just because his EYBL pedigree is probably worth the risk somewhere in the second-round but I really can’t imagine using a first on the guy.

    I can’t name a single player who stuck in the NBA after putting up numbers this bad.

  147. I’d like to be able to root for someone named Bones. Let’s make it happen at 32.

    Seriously though, I do like his game.

  148. glad I checked in to this site tonight for some Knicks news.

    wait jack bauer, there’s like a million draft posts in the last 72 hours or so…more pertinent to this particular thread though – did you not witness the alien chemtrail infrared vid over chile…what’s even crazier about that is the fact that there are carvings in the rocks in chile, from who knows when, that match the image in the vid…

    there definitely does seem to be more and more folks living outdoors in my area also…mental health care included, them being outside the healthcare system is expensive to us all…not sure what impact homelessness has on crime, but, giving folks shelter, health care, clothing, education/training and food should be a thing…nothing ever is truly free, of course…

  149. Ziaire is 6’10” and fairly athletic, and he’s only 19. So it’s not like there’s no chance he develops into an effective NBA player. And this was a terrible year for evaluating prospects, so it’s not like we have a ton of information to go on.

  150. Yeah – if you listen to the Sam Vecenie podcasts, it sounds like Stanford had a really really weird year this year even by COVID standards. They were living in a hotel, lots of personal issues on the team, etc. and I believe he also had a minor knee injury he was working through.

    If you go into the draft thinking 1 home run pick and 1 play-it-safe pick, IMHO you could do worse with taking a flyer on someone like Ziaire. Especially since we’re talking pick 19 or 21 and not 9. 6’9″ dudes who can (theoretically) shoot/create/defend are valuable! It wasn’t a great strategy at #9 with a bunch of other really good players on the board, but that’s not what we’re doing this year. I certainly wouldn’t be happy if we took Ziaire over someone like Trey Murphy (similar size but shot 50/40/90), but if you take Ziaire and, say, a safe pick like Jared Butler at 21, I wouldn’t mind so much.

    This is where Alex Kline, Kenny Payne etc will be most useful, since they almost certainly know the kid really well.

  151. Meanwhile I find it especially hilarious that Dallas is one of the teams rumored to be sniffing around Landry Shamet, when in fact they had a better version of Shamet in Seth Curry, then traded him for Josh Richardson, who will prevent them from improving their team by picking up his player option.

  152. Shamet would be an interesting add for us.. maybe for #32. I presume his cap hold is very low given his draft slot… shouldn’t affect FA too much next summer. but I would feel weird about trading with the Nets…

  153. I read all the Dallas beat writers and blogs. Right now they are just throwing a lot of spaghetti at the wall. No one knows what’s going on. The Mavs overhauled both management and the coaching staff. I’m not sure the Mavs know what they are doing yet. lol

    They have a very good team. In hindsight, taking a “healthy” Clippers team to 7 games was no disgrace. It was just bad luck to draw them in the first round. Everyone knows what they need to be serious.

    1. Another scoring option that can create off the dribble. Hardaway is not the answer.

    2. Better overall defense (role players).

    3. KP has to stay relatively healthy.

    4. The offense they were using under Haralabos Voulgaris and Carlisle has to be tossed in the garbage can. Kidd should fix that.

    5. Doncic has to get in better condition and learn when to tone down the aggression and get his teammates involved and when to do his thing.

    IMO, they are still only one very good player, a couple of role players, and KP’s health away from serious contention.

    (The Seth Curry move was idiotic. They could have used him in the playoffs to stand in the corner and space the floor. It was insanity to turn KP into a what they could have had for just 8m with Curry. That’s why so many people quit or got tossed. The whole thing was brain damage level stupid. Someone had to go.)

  154. Someone tell me all this Dennis Schroeder buzz on twitter is nothing to worry about….

  155. Dallas needs to dump KP. That would be their fastest route to contention. He’s giving them paltry production for his salary and he’s about to turn 26 so there’s not a lot of upside projection left on him anymore. He is what he is.

    If they could convince a dumb team like the Kings to take on his bad contract that would help them out a lot.

  156. @JK47 – KP is a sunk cost for them I think — no one is taking that contract without being incentivized with picks — and given Dallas’s cap situation going forward, not having cheap draft picks to fill the roster is basically suicide.

    I actually think KP will be much better next year – he was perfectly fine the year before, and he was coming off (yet another) surgery last season. Their best bet is to double down on the KP/Luka duo etc. If KP stinks next year too, then they can consider moving him, but the cost to dump him will be less because there will be 1 fewer year of bad salary to dump.

  157. 4. The offense they were using under Haralabos Voulgaris and Carlisle has to be tossed in the garbage can. Kidd should fix that.

    It takes a deep knowledge of Strat’s weird obsessions to understand how somebody could type those sentences unironically.

  158. I understand giving Ziaire the benefit of the doubt, but it isn’t terribly comforting knowing that in the NBA he’s going to spend a significant amount of time living out of hotels, will likely deal with minor injuries, and deal with team conflict.

    It’s not the same being forced to live in a hotel even at “home” and it certainly affects a person’s mental state, but his numbers are so bad it’s difficult to think they explain enough of his struggles.

    I don’t mind the risk at 19 but it’ll depend on who is available.

  159. I think Dallas should keep KP and hope he plays well and stays healthy up to the trade deadline. They’re selling at such a low point it’s kind of unfathomable. He probably won’t get a return, but he can be viewed as less of an albatross.

  160. I’m not sure what everyone else is looking at, but I thought KP had a very good season.

    It was far and away his best season on offense. He’s scored 23.5 Points per 36 on a .582 TS%, He had his best year from the FT line at 85.5%, shot 37.6% from 3 despite stretching the floor well out past the 3 point line, and improved in the mid range (which had been an issue). He even got 10.3 rebounds per 36. That was all despite a horrendous start to the season off no off season and and no camp.

    Even the playoffs were mostly a non event despite being the big story .

    The offensive scheme was for KP to stand in the corner and stretch the floor for Doncic. So that’s what he did. He never got the ball. He just took all the heat from the “know nothings” because he didn’t score a lot. That’s why Carlisle, Nelson, and probably Haralabos Voulgaris are all out now. lmao They are the idiots that traded Seth Curry and then used their max player that scores 23.5 points per 36 as a decoy. lmao

    They have 2 issue with KP (really just 1).

    1. health
    2. defense (related to #1)

    Can he stay healthy for a full season and playoff run and give them 36 minutes on both sides?

    If he can, I wish we had him. If he can’t (and that’s the same real risk we had to consider) then it’s a problem. Other than that he’s a terrific player.

  161. Playing with Doncic is looking more and more like playing with James Harden or Russell Westbrook.

  162. thenamestsam: It takes a deep knowledge of Strat’s weird obsessions to understand how somebody could type those sentences unironically.

    You aren’t going to win a championship in the NBA when you have the #1 offense in league history due to Doncic’s wizardry, Prozingis’s ability to space the floor for him and score in a variety of ways, and Seth Curry’s ability to space the floor for him and be very efficient on lower volume, and then trade that 8m dollar player away (Curry) and stick your 30m max player in the corner and turn him into a low usage spacing decoy.

    That’s what those morons did. That’s why 2 of them are out and the other is on his way as soon as Harrison starts cleaning house.

  163. Pretty bad timing given it’s the day before the draft, but would be cool if one of the draft experts here could post a brief primer on how they evaluate guards / wings / bigs. Would be curious to see how and why you weight different factors.

  164. Z-man:
    Playing with Doncic is looking more and more like playing with James Harden or Russell Westbrook.

    That what I’ve been saying all year and getting trashed for it. lol

    No one doubts that guys like Harden, Westbrook, and Doncic are incredible talents that contribute a lot of wins.

    The question is whether those guys are so ball dominant at times they aren’t maximizing the team output.

    Durant left Westbrook for a reason.

    Harden and Westbrook didn’t get along for a reason.

    CP3 didn’t get along with Harden for a reason.

    There were already grumblings in Dallas last year (even from Donnie Nelson) about what Doncic has to do and learn to take the next step. There’s a reason for that.

    Guys with incredible talent and skill sometimes think they have to do everything on every possession. They pile up amazing boxscore stats and get all the media and fan adoration, but they usually have a tough time winning championships until they learn that you need a more balanced attack and more ball movement. There are times for the superstar to “take over”, but it’s isn’t every possession of every game.

  165. KP played 43 out of 72 games.

    He was a sieve on defense, looked slow, lumbering, and disinterested.

    His attitude sucked.

    He generated 2.0 BPM.

    He was paid $30M.

    He has 3/100 left on his contract.

    His TS% was up, but league TS% was also up. It was his best season in terms of TS%+, but still wasn’t amazing.

    Bad guy to have as your #2.

  166. Guys with incredible talent and skill sometimes think they have to do everything on every possession.

    Are you talking about Dion Waiters and Andre Roberson, who combined for 4-20 shooting against the Dubs in Durant’s final game with the Thunder? Or are you talking about Kevin Durant himself, who put up a 10-31 shooting night in Game 6, somehow even worse than Westbrook’s chuckfest in the same contest?

    There are lots of reasons to criticize Westbrook in recent years, but acting like he’s not one of the best distributors and teammate-involvers in league history is totally fucking unhinged.

    And your persistent hardon for Doncic is fucking foolish, full stop. All in service of your precious underachiever Porzingis, too. It’s laughable how bad you are at seeing the most obvious facts in NBA basketball.

    Someone tell me all this Dennis Schroeder buzz on twitter is nothing to worry about….

    If you think I hate a 22-year-old defensive sieve and average shooting SG as our solution at PG, wait ’til you hear about what I think about a 27-year-old who’s put up exactly one positive TS%plus over his eight NBA seasons.

  167. That’s what those morons did. That’s why 2 of them are out and the other is on his way as soon as Harrison starts cleaning house.

    You don’t really need to explain it to me – I already have the deep knowledge of your weird obsessions! For the record KP took fewer 3s last year than the year before. Also the morons were in charge of the team in both seasons you’re alluding to so this whole line of reasoning doesn’t make a ton of sense. Also Rick Carlisle is one of the, I dunno, call it 10 most accomplished head coaches in NBA history while Jason Kidd was most recently seen coaching a team that went 60-22 the following season to a .500 record.

  168. He’s scored 23.5 Points per 36 on a .582 TS%

    He played center for literally 100% of his minutes. League average TS% for centers was 60.6%.

    Gonna be a loooooong three seasons at $33M AAV.

    The offensive scheme was for KP to stand in the corner and stretch the floor for Doncic. So that’s what he did. He never got the ball.

    That’s what happens when you can’t offer a viable enough xPPS when you try to do any more than this. What, should he have gotten more post ups? Isolations? Turnaround jumpers? His efficiency on these plays is terrible, his 3PT% is the only thing keeping his overall efficiency above water-ish.

  169. chad ford is saying we are aggressively trying to move up for duarte and 19 plus 21 isn’t enough

  170. Chad Ford just tweeted Knicks target is Duarte and they don’t think he’ll get past Golden St or Washington at 14/15 so they’re trying to trade up before them but 19/21 isn’t gonna be enough to get them there.

  171. Duarte is exactly the guy I thought they’d trade up for (win now draft!!) and is exactly who I don’t want them trading up for. Low-ceiling players are not why you move up. Also, I don’t really think too much of Duarte.

  172. I don’t really want to spend $30M on the 47th best player in the NBA, especially when he misses at least 1/3 of every season

  173. If you can’t have Duarte, why not take Trey Murphy? The difference between the 2 is not enough to justify giving up assets (picks). This draft is deeper than any I’ve ever seen before. There are tons of good players at 19 and 21. Why not get 2 future trade chips instead of one?

  174. It sounds like neither Duarte nor Murphy will make it to 19. So if the Knicks want one of them — and Berman of the Post has made it sound like they are way more into Duarte than Murphy — then… trade.

  175. I love Duarte, but he is perfect for GSW and their win-now approach. 24 is ancient for a rookie, but that’s okay when you want to pay a guy $16M over four for his prime years.

    I don’t think of Duarte as low-ceiling at all. If you get a good starter out of a pick in the low teens, you’ve done very well. It’s a plus that you don’t have to watch him play his 19-22 seasons and then roll the dice on a max a la Collin Sexton or Andre Drummond.

  176. Would be curious to see how and why you weight different factors.

    1)age/performance relative to the pool – if you win mvp of the acb at age 18 like doncic good things are going to be in your future.. and similarly if you’re dominating college seniors at age 17 like tim duncan then you are going to be very very good.. that principle isn’t only in basketball but it’s a cornerstone concept with how prospects are judged in baseball.. that’s not the same as guaranteeing success… just look at all the prospect busts in history.. but it’s a very good indicator…

    this is also a great piece on measuring different pools/leagues around the league.. layne vashro now works for the nuggets..

    2)production – i rely on benchmarks developed by ed weiland.. who went on to work for some unknown nba team.. i wound up spot checking it and his benchmarks are still pretty good… i don’t follow it religiously but there’s a certain amount of.. rebs..pts..asists..2pt%and stls/blks that you are looking for depending on position…

    besides those benchmarks.. ft%.. 3pa and 3pt% is important in that order… this piece explains part of why…

    you’re looking for a 19yo to pass all those benchmarks and if they do they have a good chance at a long career at least and has superstar potential.. the older you get the less impressive it is…

    it’s a good measure of how dominant and how diverse their skillset is because once they get to the pro’s things are gonna get harder and they’ll have to draw on all those skills to make it if they have issues adjusting (e.g RJ).. or they just dominate from…

  177. cont’d..
    3)subjective factors – a lot of the subjective stuff matters.. like work ethic most of all… because these projections bake into the fact that you will continually improve.. you can’t improve if you never put work in… most of the first rd is filled with guys that fall short on multiple benchmarks and what separates successes and failures most of the time is how hard and how smart they work… unfortunately the public doesn’t really get enough info on that front so you’re left speculating and generally i try not to speculate too much unless there’s confounding factors …

    some of those might include how athletic they are.. their dimensions… environmental factors.. growth spurts.. injuries.. all these kinds of things varies in importance.. it could mean very very little or it could mean a whole lot… and you just never know when it does.. but i think it’s important to not have it carry the whole narrative like it so often does because that’s how you fall in love with the idea of a player and not what they actually are… important lessons in not only in basketball but in life as well fwiw…

    anyway.. that’s how i do it.. and it’s a fun process to tweak and evolve over the years… and glad some people find value in it…

  178. Maybe they think the problem with Obi was he wasn’t old enough when they picked him

  179. “Maybe they think the problem with Obi was he wasn’t old enough when they picked him”
    +1

    Watched a lot of Pac 12 hoops the past few years and Duarte is a good player. But not worth trading up for and the 24 years old part probably fits better with a Golden St for instance (as stated above). Hopefully the Knick brain trust sits tight with the picks and just makes the best choices available. The cost benefit of moving just doesn’t seem worth it. I’m not opposed to trading one of the picks and adding Knox if that gets them anywhere, but that is doubtful.

  180. If you’re a team that intends to sign a superstar in free agency, drafting older players makes a lot of sense for the reason Jowles stated: it’s good to have NBA starters in their early to mid 20’s making peanuts. They have to be the right guys, though. Obi definitely was not. Duarte doesn’t strike me as Mikal Bridges but he seems to be a better Reggie Bullock, and that’s a good player to have if you’re in win now mode.

    The problem, of course, is that there is no max free agent on the horizon, so why would we think like this?

  181. I don’t know what’s going on.

    That said, I like Duarte’s name. It’s Eva Peron’s maiden name, and it conjures up lots of nice melodies every time a read it.

    Also, what is so bad about having 24 year olds starting their rookie contract? Is that really still seen as a negative? Seems like it’s the current market inefficiency, since we’ve seen with Knox and Ntilikina that, even if they do eventually develop by their mid-20s, 19 year old projects aren’t worth the loooonnnggg wait.

  182. I think it’s a fairly defensible move if you’re optimistic about your ability to add a superstar. It equates well with what phoenix did do acquire Bridges. It seems like he’s not going to be as good as Bridges, though, so criticism of the move is fair, as well.

    How would our drafniks compare him to Bridges?

    EDIT: this was in his Ringer draft profile

    Likely not a very switchable defender, as he’s not quick enough to handle speedy guards or big enough for larger, stronger forwards.

    It’s not what you want.

  183. to put it in perspective… Duarte is going to start the season at age 24 which is the same age as what Mikal Bridges started this year with… so Duarte’s real old… like Chris Weinke old by nba standards.. and any comps are going to be really tough…

    there are very strong parralels with James Ennis who similarly didn’t play college until much later in his life and similarly started his rookie year at age 24… he also had very impressive numbers in college and was actually a pretty big sleeper type… and wound up fulfilling that.. he’s had a pretty long if unspectacular career as he’s probably been perpetually underrated his whole career… he’s a solid guy and i actually hope we sign him this year..

    i think that’s kind of what we’ll be looking at.. of course being a 1st rd pick he’ll have an easier time sticking with teams.. but there’s some level of assurance that he’s an nba player… and maybe even a very decent one… but probably not all that great… and i think whoever is drafting him is well aware of it… but maybe they’re not quite aware of how bad it could all turn out also…

  184. I like Duarte but a trade up for him would be an uncreative, inefficient use of our resources. This is especially the case if it will take more than 19 and 21 to get him. It screams desperation to add a player who can contribute immediately. If that’s really so important there will still be options available to us at 19/21.

    I don’t hold Duarte’s age against him per se and again would be happy to have him at 19/21, but him and Bridges are almost the exact same age right now. The fact that Bridges was similarly productive in college despite being 3 years younger at the time suggests a pretty big difference between the two, not to mention Bridges’ freakish physical tools.

  185. @NBADraftWass
    Two guards I’m hearing for Knicks if they can’t trade up: Deuce McBride and Bones Hyland. Both in a small group of targets for NY, likely at 21.

  186. Trading up for a 26 year old? I agree with DRed, that is crazy. Are we really just going to draft for dole players?

  187. Let’s just draft both Deuce McBride and Bones Hyland, and then if they don’t make it we can spin them off into a buddy cop comedy called “Deuce and Bones”

  188. Final Board pt 3:

    21. Jared Butler – Josh Hart
    22. Sharife Cooper – Trey Burke
    23. Isaiah Jackson – Sam Dalembert/Javale McGee
    24. Kessler Edwards – Trevor Ariza
    25. Neemias Queta – Nene

    Butler would’ve been a fair bit higher if not for the heart concerns.. i have no way to judge it but it’s not an ideal situation…. that said he’s a real talent and with a solid all around game including a good looking 3pt shot that comes with volume.. very similar to Hart when he came out and it’s possible that Butler can be better.. Cooper i have a bad feeling about but there’s enough there to gamble but i’m not sure the upside is all that high.. Jackson is kind of boring but boring can be good at the right price.. Edwards is a real gem and for a low usage 3 and D guy he’s got a more consistent resume than some other popular picks in this category.. Queta is a solid big with all around skills.. being a plodder is a negative for him tho but there’s enough here for a long career…

    26. Aaron Henry – Josh Richardson
    27. Greg Brown – Aaron Gordon/Anthony Randolph
    28. Josh Primo – Martell Webster/Anfernee Simons
    29. Joel Ayayi – Gary Harris
    30. Jason Preston – Greivis Vasquez

    Izzo keeps churning out defenders and Henry’s next out the factory.. he can do other things but it’s a question whether his junior year is a flash.. Brown is a space cadet but for a real dumb guy he managed to contribute.. in the right situation he can blossom because he’s got real explosive ability.. Primo is real young so he has a long runway even tho his performance wasn’t quite good.. he would’ve been a top returning soph but instead a roll of the dice for someone.. Ayayi is a question of whether or not Gonzaga was hiding him or he was hiding on Gonzaga.. there’s some reason to believe it’s the former.. Preston’s a sleeper.. he’s def not an athlete but an interesting profile that has a chance if he can prove he can keep up athletically..

  189. i have nothing against duarte at all, his shot looks great and he might defend and be a generally smart, unselfish player. but the nba is so weird in that it was literally last year when when desmond bane was very strangely plunging straight through the entire first round because, i dunno, he was old and wasn’t going to be a shot creator?

  190. Let’s just draft both Deuce McBride and Bones Hyland, and then if they don’t make it we can spin them off into a buddy cop comedy called “Deuce and Bones”

    Lol

    If the show happens I hope you get the gig scoring it

  191. This team makes me want to scream sometimes (often). If we trade up for Duarte and that is our complete draft I’ll need to step away from the team for a minute.

    Duarte is fine if you are Golden State or the Lakers but for the Knicks he makes no sense as both a trade up or even with one of our picks. He is a player whose absolute ceiling is average starter in the NBA and whose most likely positive outcome is Reggie Bullock. For an older cap-strapped team getting a rotation player for $4 million a year is a great outcome and since only the next 2-3 years matter if he isn’t very good it doesn’t really hurt since a younger player with more potential will probably be poor to mediocre over that time anyway.

    For the Knicks drafting a player whose 90% outcome is Reggie Bullock is a bad move, even if he reaches that outcome sooner. If we want Reggie Bullock we can just sign him. Duarte has just as much bust potential as almost anyone available in the teens, it’s just he’ll reach or fail to reach his potential sooner.

    Why is our management acting like we have a short window? We are a borderline playoff team, who clearly overachieved last year and whose core is extremely young. Every move needs to be with a long term growth mindset. Choosing our rookies based on what they’ll contribute during the next two years over their long term potential is stupid and shortsighted.

  192. You do realize that drafting someone at 19 and 21 who turn into Reggie Bullock would be a great draft.

  193. Shit… the draft’s still a day away and I’m already depressed at how badly the Knicks FO has fucked it all up.

  194. Getting a good role player at 19 or 21 would be a good result. Getting a good role player for both 19 and 21 I guess would be ok, but not nearly as good a result. I’m not even sure Duarte will be a good role player since he’s already 26 and there are other avenues to getting role players. I’d rather aim at higher upside with at least one of these picks.

  195. was gonna post some clever quote regarding “assuming the worst”, then saw this:
    “Assume the worst. About everybody. But don’t let this poisoned outlook affect your job performance. Let it all roll off your back. Ignore it. Be amused by what you see and suspect. Just because someone you work with is a miserable, treacherous, self-serving, capricious and corrupt asshole shouldn’t prevent you from enjoying their company, working with them or finding them entertaining.”
    — Anthony Bourdain

    unrelated to the topic at hand, but, this so much…

  196. Duarte is likely an 8th man with low-end starter potential. Just do not see the appeal.

    At 19 or 21, sure, as a trade up? No, never.

  197. You know, we spent three consecutive lottery picks on teenagers and only one of them has any chance of making it in this league. The never-ending hope of youthful upside is smelling pretty fucking stale over here. Knox and Ntilikina had years under NBA coaching and development staffs and it was irrelevant: they fucking suck at basketball. If Duarte’s shot is for real, he’s worth a low-teens pick. I have no idea if this is the case, but his age is irrelevant to me. I would love to have his 24-27 seasons for $15M combined, and if he turns out to be a serious NBA player, to pay his rookie max extension through age 31.

  198. Caleb Dressel has a 43 inch vertical and four gold medals. Let’s draft him.

    I have hit the trembling fear portion of the off-season. I feel absolutely certain right now that the FO is going to do something horrific.

    Hopefully it will all work out somehow….

  199. I was not saying that Duarte will be Reggie Bullock I’m saying his 90% outcome is Reggie Bullock, his most likely outcome is much worse. Duarte has almost no upside and despite being a “finished product” could still very easily end up being a bad player.

    The choice isn’t just between project upside picks with bad production like Primo, Williams, or Jones and older low upside players like Duarte, Mitchell, or Kispert. Take players who still have real upside and were productive at the same time. It wasn’t dumb luck that Barrett worked out and Knox and Ntilikina didn’t. Knox’s and Ntilikina’s upside were based on hope and the “eye test” while Barrett’s was based on real production.

    I don’t mind taking slightly older players like Butler or Grimes or Dusunmu that have years of consistent production and some remaining upside but when players get to be Duarte’s age the margin for error in them making it becomes very small. Look at all the drafts over the last 10 years. Many of the players who never make it are either young unproductive players with good tools/measurables or older so-called “finished products” with no upside.

    I would love it if we split the difference and took one older player who is more of a sure thing (Butler, Grimes, Dosunmu, McBride, Hyland) and one younger player with more upside (Springer, Cooper, Jalen Johnson).

    But to trade up and put all our eggs in one basket is dumb unless that basket is someone truly special with high upside and a reasonable floor and Duarte is not that player. In fact, I don’t think anyone within reach is. We have two shots at this, our chance of success doubles if we take two players, three if you count the #32 pick.

    For once the correct move is the easy one. Don’t make a trade, use all your picks, don’t try to be cute or clever, and just make 3 reasonable selections.

  200. “For once the correct move is the easy one. Don’t make a trade, use all your picks, don’t try to be cute or clever, and just make 3 reasonable selections.”

    +1 to this. We’ll be fine so long as it’s not a massive reach or someone where you have to squint to see any value (e.g., Ziaire). Also, the quote widget doesn’t work for me.

  201. there’s a distinct possibility that we draft three landmines with some of the names being floated around so i would absolutely take Chris Duarte and cut my losses……

    but it could actually be a lot better than that… but with past experience I would gladly settle for a C level move to avoid a second coming of the wallace.. mccarty and jones draft… which seems inevitable at this point…

  202. Quotes don’t work on a lot of mobile devices. The internet app on phones blocks it by default, it’s not the website. I’ve not been able to figure out what on the phone is blocking it yet though.

  203. The Honorable Cock Jowles:
    You know, we spent three consecutive lottery picks on teenagers and only one of them has any chance of making it in this league. The never-ending hope of youthful upside is smelling pretty fucking stale over here. Knox and Ntilikina had years under NBA coaching and development staffs and it was irrelevant: they fucking suck at basketball. If Duarte’s shot is for real, he’s worth a low-teens pick. I have no idea if this is the case, but his age is irrelevant to me. I would love to have his 24-27 seasons for $15M combined, and if he turns out to be a serious NBA player, to pay his rookie max extension through age 31.

    This is a good point, but there is large gap between teenage and 24 in terms of basketball development. And speaking of our three drafted rookies, Ntilikina was still probably a reasonable pick for who was available. Knox was horrible, but the better alternatives weren’t 24 either. They were young too. I’m not sure who the third teenager was. Obi was 22, and I am not impressed so far. Certainly this year we could draft someone in the middle of the draft age spectrum instead of getting the oldest guy there.

  204. I tried watching some 3×3 Olympic type basketball because I was curious what it was like. You can watch a full game in twenty minutes of so. It looks exhausting and not like any three on three game I ever played. It’s fun to watch. See the link below fir a full game. By the way I thought the announcer was colorful and fun, but I don’t know who he was.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wsSIVRUIKQE

  205. Knick fan not in NJ: I tried watching some 3×3 Olympic type basketball because I was curious what it was like.

    It’s really fun to watch, as you said. And this way, Knox can redeem himself winning the gold for USA in Paris’24. ;P

  206. Early Bird: At least we usually knock our 2nd pick out of the park: IQ & Mitch

    Another reason not to trade up, because if you trade up, you won’t have a 2nd pick. :P

  207. What do I know about college players, but I really am not sure why everyone seems so sure that Duarte is not good, or at least not THAT good. Like Hubert says – if we end up getting Duarte and he plays like Reggie Bullock, that is GREAT value for two picks in the 20 range – even if, say we move up to pick 14 to get him, that is a 3 year $10MM guaranteed contract or a 4 year ~14MM contract if we pick up the option.

    And who is to say that Duarte isn’t better than Bullock?
    The Desmond Bane comp is semi-interesting except that Bane had a negative wingspan and while a good 3 point shooter, had a 2p% of 46%, cementing him literally as a Bullock ceiling guy on offense (albeit a little better passing the ball).

    Duarte’s stats are crazy — 63% 2P%, 42% from 3, TS of 65.5 on 25 usage (compared with Bane’s 56.6% on similar usage), a career steal rate of 3.8% which is nuts, and I believe he’s bigger than Bane. And as I understand it, he has some juice off the bounce, is a good pull-up shooter, etc.

  208. RE: the McBride talk – seems plenty of people like him as more than a Jevon Carter type (ie. career spot backup). the only thing I would say is that if Thibs + co. really like him, don’t wait for pick 21. If you ask me, Atlanta would/should consider McBride as the Lou Williams backup thing doesn’t seem a great idea defensively for them. I’m not sure whether Atlanta will be drafting for need or what, but it seems Okongwu may be out for much of the year, and so maybe they’re looking at bigs too.

    Meanwhile, ESPN now mocking Kai Jones and Bones Hyland to us.

  209. Just to open the possibility to get roasted if these guys fail to be good NBA players, here goes my draft choices:
    1. keep the picks; i know we don’t want to do that, but i’m hoping no team will be willing to deal with us at a fair price and in the end we keep them;
    2. with pick # 19 we need to get a PG project, and this doesn’t stop the need to sign a starter and a backup in free-agency; my options in order, are – Springer, Butler, Cooper;
    3. with pick # 21 some help at SF, although we’ll still get a guy to be RJ’s backup in free-agency; my options – Murphy, Johnson;
    4. with pick # 32 some help at C, because we might not want to pay Noel (if he gets expensive); my options – Queta, Bassey, Sharpe;
    The player i really want is Springer, so this probably means he’ll be taken by OKC with pick # 18. :P

  210. I am not terribly high on McBride because of his finishing issues and my personal doubts he can be a full-time point guard, but we could do a lot worse at 19/21 or even 32. He’d be a fun player to have–the shooting bona fides are there and he’s a dogged defender.

    I am kind of fascinated by Hyland and always assumed he was not an option for us because he’s essentially Immanuel Quickley. There are all kinds of questions about him, but it would be hard not to be excited about having two Immanuels Quickley. Bones’ (still good) .371 3PT% doesn’t really do him justice since just 67% of them were assisted–he pulls up from anywhere, at any time.

    See, there are plenty of good options if we just stay put!

  211. See, there are plenty of good options if we just stay put!

    and there’s always a chance someone like Kispert falls to 19

  212. Here is my ’21 mock:

    1. DET – Cunningham
    2. HOU – Green
    3. CLE – Mobley
    4. TOR – Suggs
    5. ORL – Barnes
    6. OKC – Kuminga
    7. GS – Moody
    8. ORL – Bouknight
    9. SAC – Wagner
    10. MEM – Giddey
    11. CHA – Sengun
    12. SA – Garuba
    13. IND – Mitchell
    14. GS – Jones
    15. WAS – Duarte
    16. OKC – Z. Williams
    17. NO – Kispert
    18. OKC – J. Johnson
    19. NY – Murphy
    20. ATL – Butler
    21. NY – K. Johnson
    22. LAL – Hyland
    23. HOU – Springer
    24. HOU – Jackson
    25. LAC – Dosunmu
    26. DEN – Grimes
    27. BRK – Sharpe
    28. PHI – Thomas
    29. PHO – Thor
    30. UTA – Mann

  213. the rumors don’t feel real to me… usually tradeup rumors aren’t followed up with an actual target unless you want to start a bidding war… so it seems like agent bait to me… as you get closer to draft day the leaks and rumors get more frequent and more fake and if you look at actual transactions happening.. you hardly ever hear about them beforehand…

    so i’m pretty confident we’re staying put as i’m pretty sure these other teams are going to save us from ourselves at the very least… but obv wouldn’t come as a huge shock if we do something rash…. the thing i’m scared about is actually using these picks on terrible players…. which is actually not that easy to do this year…

  214. 19. NY – Murphy
    20. ATL – Butler
    21. NY – K. Johnson

    and i do think someone like Keon Johnson or Jalen Johnson will fall…. i don’t think we would take them tho unfortunately…. but it’d be real nice if it happened…

  215. Maybe our front office isn’t being saved by other teams. Maybe they’re only offering the two picks and saying if you don’t want them we’re not adding anything else to convince you.

    They may just have their price and they’re not willing to change it for moving up 5 or 6 slots.

    Maybe they’re only offering one pick and Knox to move up. We just don’t know.

  216. Duarte is almost exactly a year older than Desmond Bane, which is why I view Duarte disfavorably. And that’s not when Bane graduated, Duarte was born almost exactly a year before Bane.

    Duarte is in his physical prime, he’s had extra years of strength training would be naturally stronger even without it, and has 4 more years experience than a lot of NCAA players. These are significant advantages over college players that he won’t have over NBA players.

    Plus, Bane had excellent 2p% every year before his senior year.

  217. bidiong the not so great: Maybe they’re only offering one pick and Knox to move up.

    Well, if Knox can get us higher, sign me up for that. I just don’t view him as a positive asset anymore (and really, i’ve never had, he was a disaster right out of the gates).

  218. I guess McBride would be a decent pick at 19 or 21 but I’m not excited about it. I love his defense but he’s not an elite shooter and even though he’s a good athlete he doesn’t attack the rim because his ball handling and fast twitch are only so-so. I don’t think NBA defenders will have much trouble keeping him in front of them. He seems like a high floor-low ceiling guy, which is fine but boring.

  219. Duarte would be great at #19, when you have another swing at it. To give up that swing to get him makes no sense to me. Imagine if we gave up the pick that became IQ to trade up for Obi.

  220. ***Duarte is…old…which is why I view Duarte disfavorably…Duarte is in his physical prime, he’s had extra years of strength training would be naturally stronger even without it, and has 4 more years experience than a lot of NCAA players. These are significant advantages over college players that he won’t have over NBA players.***

    In highlighting the one disfavorable aspect of his candidacy, you’ve presented several highly favorable traits. Physical prime: good. Naturally stronger: good. Successfully exploited his advantages: good.

    If he’s a good player, age is a non-factor. Age is really only an issue when considering the second and third contracts, not the rookie one. (And the flip side is that he’s a whole year younger than the Atlanta Bogdanovic was at draft time. Having that Bogdanovic on a rookie deal from 25-28 was a really good thing for his team, there was no downside of having to wait through 4 years of strength conditioning and development.)

    [editor’s note: the author of this post had never head of Duarte before this week. He hasn’t seen him play. He hasn’t glanced at a stat sheet. He’s speaking generically on behalf of older rookies. In short, he doesn’t know what’s going on.]

  221. Reports are we are trying to trade for Terrence Ross, which would be fine if the deal was #58 and Knox. Ross is an excellent shooter. Just please don’t overpay.

  222. Donnie Walsh: And the flip side is that he’s a whole year younger than the Atlanta Bogdanovic was at draft time. Having that Bogdanovic on a rookie deal from 25-28 was a really good thing for his team, there was no downside of having to wait through 4 years of strength conditioning and development.

    Bogdanovic was drafted at 21, and then he remained in europe, only coming at age 25 (that’s correct). But he was playing in strong leagues with grown men, and with lots of players with NBA experience. It’s not the same as dominating a league full of players aged 18 to 20 when you’re 23, i think.
    But i’m not against Duarte, just don’t trade up to get him.

  223. with all the potential landmines available, I’m becoming more interested in taking Jackson from Kentucky. I understand the positional argument, but I prefer a good player at suboptimal position than a swing and a miss, and Jackson most likely will be a base hit.

    Other reasons to like that pick:

    – Just bc we got Noel cheap once doesn’t mean we’ll get someone like him every year.

    – Mitch might be trade bait or become too expensive.

    I think my ideal draft outcome would be getting two from the Duarte, Murphy, Cooper, Jackson group, and then someone like Ayo falling to 32. It’s a low ceiling draft but I’m confident we’d end up with three real contributors.

  224. Hollinger floated 33 and Ross for 19 in his column this morning which I would really hate for us. Ross definitely has more versatility to his jumper than somebody like Bullock but he doesn’t shoot a high enough percentage to really justify the more difficult attempts and he doesn’t do anything else particularly well.

  225. I still have a crush on Dosunmu, and he seems like he might be available at 32.

    i have read that he won’t fall past denver and vegas odds have him at right around that spot… and there’s a chance the hawks will take him at 20….

  226. DRed: Cronin is on vacation right?the thread situation is going to be bad today

    I think owen is also an author and can save us. :)

  227. If you take a mediocre college player and play him against HS players, he’ll dominate. It’s like that with Duarte, maybe not to the same extent, but Duarte has an unfair advantage that points to him not being as good as the numbers say.

    Duarte may be in *his* physical prime, but that doesn’t mean much. I had a physical prime and absolutely did not deserve to be on an NBA court.

  228. DRed:
    Cronin is on vacation right?the thread situation is going to be bad today

    He did say he’d manage to post a draft thread despite being on vacation

  229. Knick fan not in NJ: He did say he’d manage to post a draft thread despite being on vacation

    At that level of commitment, i think i’m going to propose Brian to KB’s Hall of Fame! :D

  230. i have read that he won’t fall past denver and vegas odds have him at right around that spot… and there’s a chance the hawks will take him at 20….

    ah. givony had him falling to 32 in his draft this morning, hence my excitement.

    I’m going to assume Duarte and Murphy will be gone by 19. If so, at 19 & 21 I would be happiest with two from Ayo, Cooper, Jackson.

  231. Reading this, my guess is that Jackson will be available at 32, which might be a fair place to take him.

    Isaiah Jackson, 6-10 freshman forward, Kentucky. “Long, lean, has elite defensive potential. Can really block shots. But his offense needs to catch up. He’s going to be more of a rim runner, catch-and-finish guy. He has to get so much stronger. I think he can be in the Daniel Gafford mold. I’m not sure I see his passing coming along. He’ll wind up being a terrific defender and rebounder in our league. You worry about him being able to pick up weight and maintain it. He’s an undersized center, really thin, has limited skill. Running and jumping isn’t a skill.”

    The quote is from the Athletic’s summary of anonymous nba scouts’ takes on 60 American prospects.

  232. If Garuba falls to the 2nd round, it might be because of this…

    Garuba’s NBA buyout clause with the Spanish club is worth three million Euros.
    An NBA team can contribute to a player’s buyout with his international team, but only up to $775K (about €655K). That means that if Garuba wants to make the leap to the NBA right away, most of the buyout would have to come out of his own pocket. To make matters worse for the 19-year-old, the amount of that buyout increases by one million Euros every year until 2024, per Urbonas. Garuba’s contract with Real Madrid runs through 2025.

    …what an insane buyout that is, it’s 3.5M USD !!!

  233. I’m not sure about Ross, but moving down from 19 to 33 in this draft doesn’t seem like a huge detriment. A lot of the players this board wants are projected to be around in the 2nd anyways… not that the mocks mean much this year.

  234. Terrence Ross seems like kind of a head case to me. I don’t think he makes any sense for us, he’s not a great shooter.

  235. …what an insane buyout that is, it’s 3.5M USD !!!

    is leon rose willing to hang his son out to dry? i’ll guess we’ll see…

  236. Early Bird:
    I’m not sure about Ross, but moving down from 19 to 33 in this draft doesn’t seem like a huge detriment. A lot of the players this board wants are projected to be around in the 2nd anyways… not that the mocks mean much this year.

    Yeah I don’t consider the cost prohibitive – as you said it’s not a massive difference in the quality of player and the extra contract flexibility you get on an early 2nd rounder as compared to a 1st rounder is a little carrot as well. I just don’t think Ross is very good and adding a mediocre player just to get some more shooting on the roster seems kind of pointless to me. Ross isn’t really good enough to want to have on the court for big minutes and if we’re talking about someone who’s only qualified to be the 4th guard I think you can find somebody who offers shooting in that role in free agency – Bryn Forbes was floated the other day.

    Plus Ross is signed through ’22-’23 and I wouldn’t want to tie up the cap for him.

  237. I’d see Ross as more of a Burks replacement than a Bullock replacement. Numbers aren’t too far off.

    Knicks are probably just kicking the tires on him since ORL is making him available. A bunch of teams are talking to ORL, Knicks may just be asking about the price

  238. I know it’s dumb to love a player who can’t shoot but sharife cooper highlights have me a little giddy. He could be a great change of pace guard, and this team sorely needs playmaking. A bench trio of Cooper, Quickley, and Toppin could be pretty explosive. Obi would definitely benefit from playing with him.

  239. Yeah I was watching Shariffes passing highlights and hes a legit wizard with the ball. His floor has to be at least a backup PG with that elite skill

  240. and we have such a desperate need for that, too. I can’t imagine why we wouldn’t take him with one of our picks, or why we’d give up one of our picks and the chance to draft him to trade up.

    His floor seems to be cheap, backup PG if he can’t shoot. And he’s a home run if his shot develops.

    djphan compared him to trey burke, but I see real kyle lowry potential in him. sign me up.

  241. Speaking of Lowry and ageism, Lowry didn’t become really good until his 30s. Before that he was one of those journeyman prospects.

  242. djphan: is leon rose willing to hang his son out to dry? i’ll guess we’ll see…

    Forgot about that. I was so relaxed about this draft, now you’ve made me anxious. :P
    At least, if Frank doesn’t re-sign we’ll have 4 years talking about Garuba. I’m predicting that 4 years from now, the optimists will still be saying that if Garuba gets better at this and that, he can be like DPOY All-Star Draymond. LOL

  243. Donnie Walsh:
    Speaking of Lowry and ageism, Lowry didn’t become really good until his 30s. Before that he was one of those journeyman prospects.

    Overstating the case a bit. He was good in Houston as early as 2010-11, but yes, he definitely peaked at 29-31. Pretty wild that Morey landed Harden and shipped out Lowry in the same offseason. But yes, we can all agree that Lowry is a Billups-like case. Exceedingly rare for someone to get good that late in his career. But he’s 35 and his numbers are not trending well. His next contract has some serious albatross risk. You can’t pay a 1.0 BPM point guard $30M unless you have a black hole at the position with extreme talent elsewhere.

  244. Early Bird: If you take a mediocre college player and play him against HS players, he’ll dominate. It’s like that with Duarte, maybe not to the same extent, but Duarte has an unfair advantage that points to him not being as good as the numbers say.

    I’ll take actual performance (Duarte) over imagined future performance (e.g. Cam Reddish) any day of the week. You can impress whatever high ceiling you want onto a young athletic guy. You can also impress whatever low ceiling you want onto an older prospect. The difference is that Duarte has actually done something.

  245. with all the potential landmines available,

    The reason there are so many landmines is that #19 and #21 are not very valuable.

    That’s why Plan A is to use a pick or picks to help land an NBA player they like at the price. The better the player the better.

    Plan B is to trade up if they can find a willing team and there’s a player they are very confident in available in higher slot.

    Plan C is to use the gunshot approch, draft 3 players they know have all sorts of weaknessess at 19, 21 and 32 and hope 1 develops and becomes a starter.

  246. It sounds like Lonzo Ball is almost certainly available. Now it’s up to the Knicks to decide how much he’s worth and whether they insist on having a PG that runs the P&R and scores a lot or whether thet are willing to build a team that runs, focuses on ball movement, uses multiple playmakers, and is not dependent on that one guy.

  247. Two guys who I really don’t like in the top 10 are Barnes and Kuminga. Kuminga has serious bust potential, he reminds me of Derrick Williams. Barnes has a great motor but his shot looks terrible.

  248. Lowery makes no sense to me. He’s not going to move the chain enough to matter and we won’t be able to trade him at his age if a great deal comes up later. It seems pointless. You can at least argue someone like CP3 is worth 10-15 wins over Payton and makes us a serious team for 2-3 years. So if we added another piece or someone steps up, we might have some serious fun. But IMO, even CP3 is a close call.

  249. I’m on the beach chilling and ready for tonight’s FO battle!

    TRoss is the Human Highlight Filler.
    Wake me up when the trade rumours concern someone better…

    Watched a few SheriffCooper highlights a few months ago and found him pretty CP3esque.
    He passed my eye test successfully, at least offensively.

    Watched a couple of minutes of DMitchell also. Not bad at all!
    Voted Yes on trading 2 pics to get him!

    That’s My Big Board this year!
    ;-p

  250. Cooper could change our franchise for 10 years or more. I’d take a shot on him.

  251. Exceedingly rare for someone to get good that late in his career.

    it really happens quite often with pg’s in particular…. nash.. billups… dragic… holiday.. lowry.. to a lesser extent you can apply it to guys like dinwiddie and bledsoe… a lot of times it takes awhile for a pg to take that next leap… a lot of times it’s that 3pt shot that needs to get consistent.. but a lot of different players do it in different ways…

    i don’t think lowry is the analog with cooper… cooper really is modeling himself after trae young… who similarly just took the keys and just used virtually every possession and racked up all the counting stats… i dont’ even think burke is a great comparison either but from a box score perspective they are similar….

    i’m not all that excited with him but it’s not easy to do what he did either so i recognize the excitement with him… i think you have to check out the baylor game where you get to see nba level pressure from a pair of top flight defenders and if you do you might temper your enthusiasm like i have…

  252. @jowles,

    I’m not saying draft a player with nothing in the boxscore like Knox just because he’s 19, you can find young players who have actually shown something or just draft Quentin Grimes who is 3 years younger than Duarte and put up excellent numbers as well.

  253. How much more potential does Sharife Cooper have than Shane Larkin? Small, quick, change-of-pace guards who can only defend one position….If they’re comparable, would it be better to draft Cooper or bring over Larkin on a cheap contract?

  254. This is a somewhat ordered list of guys I’d be excited to draft:
    Cunningham
    Green
    Suggs
    Mobley
    Moody
    Mitchell
    Giddey
    Cooper
    Bouknight
    Springer
    Duarte
    Thomas
    Butler
    Grimes
    McBride
    Murphy
    Keon
    Jackson
    Hyland
    Primo
    Christopher
    Johnson
    Dosunmu
    Sharpe
    Bleijenbergh

    Some guys may shift around by tonight, but give me three of these guys and I’d be thrilled. Obviously the ones at the top are not happening, but one can dream!

  255. rama – the correct answer is both. Bring over Shane Larkin and draft Cooper. Cooper is pretty raw he is probably at least a year or two away from being able to even think about being a starter.

    As for Duarte, it’s not the fact that he’s old that is bad it’s the fact that being old means his production comes with an asterisk since he is so much older and further along on his development than everyone else. If we had his numbers at ages 19 and 20 and they looked good I would feel a lot better but all we have is his age 22 season, which wasn’t great, and his age 23 season, which was. If you don’t put up NBA-worthy stats until you are 23 that is a huge red flag. Talking about Cam Reddish, his age 18 season isn’t that much worse than Duarte’s age 22 season, the only huge advantage Duarte has is 2pt% and turnovers, and Reddish was a bad pick. It’s telling that if Duarte had been in the draft last year he probably wouldn’t have even been drafted.

  256. rama feels this is a watershed moment:
    How much more potential does Sharife Cooper have than Shane Larkin? Small, quick, change-of-pace guards who can only defend one position….If they’re comparable, would it be better to draft Cooper or bring over Larkin on a cheap contract?

    Larkin averaged 4.6 assists per game in his second college season. Cooper averaged 8.8 assists in his only college year. That’s quite a difference. Cooper also gets to the line at a tremendous rate.

  257. The reason there are so many landmines is that #19 and #21 are not very valuable.

    There are no landmines at 19 or 21.

    Landmines:

    Josh Jackson
    Marvin Bagley
    Kevin Knox
    Darius Garland
    Dragan Bender
    Kris Dunn
    Mario Hezonja
    Jah Okafor
    Emmanuel Mudiay

    Marvin Bagley didn’t just sting because of Doncic (or Young). It should also sting SAC fans because he has had a contract of $9M AAV to suck at basketball.

    Saddiq Bey and Tyrese Maxey were last year’s 19 and 21 and were pretty damn good for rookies. They will cost their respective teams about $12M apiece over four. I’d much rather be paying Bey and Maxey a combined $5M than Marvin Bagley $11M this year.

    I’d rather have the #2 than the #19 or #21, but the point is that the latter picks carry minimal risk. Drafting the #1 overall pick and having him turn out to be a bust is a double whammy, both in draft opportunity cost and salary cap opp. cost.

  258. but all we have is his age 22 season, which wasn’t great

    He had a shooting hand injury IIRC

  259. I’ve also seen Joe Wieskamp compared to Kevin Huerter. He hasn’t been mentioned much on here but he did shoot .462 from three and rebounds fairly well. Any thoughts on him with pick 32?

  260. Speaking of Reggie Bullock, at age 21 his final year in college, he put up arguably better stats than Duarte did last year and he still took 4 years on two different teams to become the solid role player he is today. So even becoming Reggie Bullock would be a very good outcome, and is hardly a sure thing for Duarte.

  261. ***….If they’re comparable, would it be better to draft Cooper or bring over Larkin on a cheap contract?***

    Huh?

    One has upside, the other doesn’t. One is an asset for at least 4 years, the other one isn’t. Both are equally cheap contracts.

    If you’re saying that there are 3 other guys you’d want with your 3 picks, and all other things are equal, then, sure, take the one year vet. But otherwise, I don’t think I understand the rational behind even asking this question.

  262. not sure if this is a comprehensive list… but here’s a list of caa clients in this draft that i see:

    Isaiah Jackson
    Day’ron Sharpe
    Cam Thomas
    Jalen Green
    Davion Mitchell
    Usman Garuba

    just from avoiding the appearance of shenanigans .. it’d be real nice if we didn’t draft any of these names… (altho jalen green would be pretty good)…

  263. djphan:
    not sure if this is a comprehensive list… but here’s a list of caa clients in this draft that i see:

    Isaiah Jackson
    Day’ron Sharpe
    Cam Thomas
    Jalen Green
    Davion Mitchell
    Usman Garuba

    just from avoiding the appearance of shenanigans .. it’d be real nice if we didn’t draft any of these names… (altho jalen green would be pretty good)…

    Ughhh. So Jackson is our destiny, isn’t he?

  264. The Sixers just acquired the #53 pick from the Pelicans for cash. I wish that we would have done that.

  265. But otherwise, I don’t think I understand the rational behind even asking this question.

    The rationale is, why burn a pick on a player whose upside already exists in a player you can get on the cheap?

  266. bc his upside is significantly higher than shane larkin.

    I think your rationale applies to duarte, though. How much better is he than reggie bullock? I’d rather pay Reggie $10mm and draft three other players than draft Duarte to replace Reggie.

  267. rama feels this is a watershed moment: The rationale is, why burn a pick on a player whose upside already exists in a player you can get on the cheap?

    I guess it depends on how sure you feel about the upside…for example, Cooper seems like a much better passer and floor general than Larkin was, so I think he has a higher upside. But if you dont see that, sure, you shouldn’t draft him.

  268. Hubert:
    bc his upside is significantly higher than shane larkin.

    I think your rationale applies to duarte, though. How much better is he than reggie bullock? I’d rather pay Reggie $10mm and draft three other players than draft Duarte to replace Reggie.

    Duarte seems to have a bit more off the dribble than Reggie, and if Reggie was better off the dribble he’s be worth more money. But he is definitely not worth trading up for. At #19 I’d be ecstatic to draft him.

  269. I’d be less opposed to trading up for Mitchell than for Duarte. I’m confident that Mitchell is going to be at least a solid NBA rotation player with an electric game who will be really fun to root for, with an outside chance of being a star if the 3pt shot is not a mirage. I don’t see any star potential in Duarte.

  270. Duarte’s numbers a year ago were fairly pedestrian, especially considering his age. As far as pure shooting goes, you can probably get Wieskamp in the 2nd round, and he will perform that role just as well (and is younger).

    Duarte would be more of a fill-in for Burks than Reggie btw, as he can handle it a little, but how expensive will Burks really be?

    Again, I’m not against Duarte, but I don’t like him as a trade-up candidate. I would probably only trade up for Giddey or Moody, unless we’re talking about a short bump up with a 2nd rounder.

  271. The sheer desperation the Knicks seem to have to move up is hilarious at this point. They must think we will be penalized for having two first rounders.

  272. Honestly – I trust Leon Rose and co. They have given us nothing but shrewd moves so far, with two possible iffy moves — one is drafting Obi (at this point it seems like a C+/B- move, not an F move), and giving away the #33 or whatever pick last draft. In the meantime they hired the COTY, oversaw the impressive development of RJ, Julius, Mitch, signed Burks and Noel on the cheap, stole Derrick Rose from the Pistons, did that crazy Jedi-mind trick where we started with 25+35 and ended up with 23 and 33 or whatever it was, used $5MM of space on Ed Davis which turns into 3 2nd round picks or whatever. Oh yeah, and we were the #4 seed.

    They’ve definitely done the work. They have good and proven talent evaluators, and between Rose and Brock Aller, they are on top of proper contract and pick valuations.

    I’m hoping we make at least 2 picks tonight, and that assuming we’re not getting into the lottery, those 2 players are in this group:

    Trey Murphy,
    Kispert
    Jared Butler
    Ziaire Williams
    Isiah Jackson
    Kai Jones
    Deuce McBride
    Bones Hyland
    Usman Garuba
    Sharife Cooper
    Joe Wieskamp (who seems wildly underrated?)
    Ayo Dosomnu
    Jay Ayayi
    Josh Christopher
    Jaden Springer
    Quentin Grimes

    I would not mind BJ Boston at 32 either

    See, I’m not asking so much. I can find something to like about so many players.

  273. Off topic but I’ve waited too long to figure it out. Since the site changed format, has anyone figured out how to quickly see the most recent comment on mobile? My tired fingers are weary and cramped.

  274. **anyone figured out how to quickly see the most recent comment on mobile? My tired fingers are weary and cramped.**

    Go to homepage and scroll to bottom to find most recent, it takes less time than scrolling to the bottom of the thread

  275. There are no landmines at 19 or 21.

    If you say something enough times maybe you will eventually actually believe it. :-)

    It’s either trade for a NBA player, move up to get someone they really like, or that means they couldn’t pull off plan A or B. There’s no chance these guys want to make 3-4 picks tonight. If that’s what it comes down to because they couldn’t pull off plan A or plan B, they will naturally do the best they can to try to find NBA players or at least players that can be traded later, but that’s not what they want or should want to do.

  276. Early Bird:
    **anyone figured out how to quickly see the most recent comment on mobile? My tired fingers are weary and cramped.**

    Go to homepage and scroll to bottom to find most recent, it takes less time than scrolling to the bottom of the thread

    Hack the planet.

  277. I’m hoping everything we are reading the press is fake news leaked to the press by smart management and we have a deal or someone in mind that hasn’t been linked to us strongly.

  278. If our management thinks that a borderline playoff team, that desperately needs depth and has 8 roster spots open, taking three players in a deep draft is bad then every single one of them needs to be fired.

  279. @wojespn
    Brooklyn has traded guard Landry Shamet to Phoenix for Jevon Carter and the 29th pick in tonight’s draft, sources tell ESPN.

  280. Cooper looks tiny

    He’s not a big guy but nobody in college basketball could stop him from going wherever he wanted on the basketball court.

  281. @NYPost_Berman
    Knicks a little concerned wings Ziaire Williams/Trey Murphy may not fall to 19. They’d take either. With no trade up, may have to settle for another Kentucky big, Isaiah Jackson. No indication Auburn PG Shariffe Cooper is being considered at 19/21.

  282. List of CAA clients:

    Isaiah Jackson
    Day’ron Sharpe
    Cam Thomas
    Jalen Green
    Davion Mitchell
    Usman Garuba
    Keon Johnson
    Ziaire Williams

  283. Cam Thomas/Miles McBride/Quentin Grimes/Luka Garza would be a nice draft.

    OK let’s do this already!

  284. Feels so 96 when we have 3 picks in a deep drat hope we can get something of the 3 draft.

    If there’s someone I am interested hope we can get SGA for a low price. Not interested on a big name ala melo trade for Dame but will be happy for a 1 year rental for Lowry. Hope we will not waste our money and flexibilty.
    Let the season begin.

  285. If Russ gets traded to the Lakers for some reason that probably ups the chances we give fucking Shroeder money

  286. Westbrook is such a terrible fit for the Lakers – who’s gonna play off the ball, him or LeBron? Bad option either way

  287. Crazy Lakers trade. People will make jokes about there only being one ball yadda yadda yadda but I’m actually reasonably optimistic about the fit. Westbrook was pretty good off the ball in Houston when he fully leaned into the bizzaro center role in Houston.

    Ziaire Williams makes no little sense and to be honest I might be just as fatalistic about the pick as I was about Knox. The fit is terrible and the player was bad in the Pac-12. I really, really hope we get saved from ourselves.

  288. hopefully the cooper info is a smokescreen. why would he not be even considered given our PG situation and lack of playmaking?

  289. Ziare is confusing since the team seems so hell bent on win now players and Williams is probably a multi year project player

  290. Woj is implying that the Westbrook trade is actually an attempt to keep Beal. lmao

    Westbrook has become the new old Rudy Gay. lol

    Adrian Wojnarowski
    @wojespn
    This is a trade Washington wants to make with Bradley Beal in mind, creating some salary cap flexibility for the future to add talent around him, sources tell ESPN. The idea of returning to his Los Angeles roots has been appealing to Westbrook.

  291. Kinda think it’d make them better not having Russ take a billion shots with a .509 TS%

    That’s not a great collection of talent, but Beal could conceivably drag them to a playoff spot

    Lakers probably just looking for LeBron insurance so they have some creator if he gets injured

  292. Deeefense: If you say something enough times maybe you will eventually actually believe it.:-)

    It’s either trade for a NBA player, move up to get someone they really like, or that means they couldn’t pull off plan A or B.There’s no chance these guys want to make 3-4 picks tonight.If that’s what it comes down to because they couldn’t pull off plan A or plan B, they will naturally do the best they can to try to find NBA players or at least players that can be traded later, but that’s not what they want or should want to do.

    I’m with option A, trade for an established star. I don’t want another Kevin Knox or Frank Ntilikina if we can get a Beal, Dame or someone like that. Then sign another player. Now we’re talking about being a really good team.

  293. @wojespn
    TRADE: The Cleveland Cavaliers are acquiring Minnesota Timberwolves G Ricky Rubio, a 2022 second-round pick and cash for Taurean Prince, sources tell ESPN.

  294. Alan: @wojespn
    TRADE: The Cleveland Cavaliers are acquiring Minnesota Timberwolves G Ricky Rubio, a 2022 second-round pick and cash for Taurean Prince, sources tell ESPN.

    That may make it more likely Sexton is out tonight. Knicks?

  295. Hubert:
    Strat’s right. We should just trade 19 & 21 for Lillard.

    I’m right that drafting 3-4 players we don’t really like much and praying one turns out good is dumb if there are NBA players or higher draft prospects we like a lot that we can use those picks to get. If we fail, we fail, but if the strategy is to draft 3-4 guys we don’t really like much and pray we are fools.

  296. kill me

    List of CAA clients:

    Isaiah Jackson
    Day’ron Sharpe
    Cam Thomas
    Jalen Green
    Davion Mitchell
    Usman Garuba
    Keon Johnson
    Ziaire Williams

    We’ve got some knowledgeable draft guys on this board, but this might be the best analysis I’ve seen so far. Ignore anyone not on this list.

  297. We’re only gonna trade for Sexton if Sharife Cooper is off the board at 19.

  298. how about we just change the strategy to drafting three or four players we *do* really like?

  299. I’m seeing a sudden change in attitude amongst many here.

    Hubert:
    Strat’s right. We should just trade 19 & 21 for Lillard.

    I don’t think 19 & 21 is enough. What will it take … realistically?

  300. Hubert:
    how about we just change the strategy to drafting three or four players we *do* really like?

    That would be a great strategy except it’s hard to “really like” multiple players at 19. 21, 32 etc.. They usually have some obvious flaws. We are looking for players that can have an impact in the short and long term. They aren’t going to carry 3-4 rookies on the roster to develop. More likely is we really like 1 player in that range but total love a player a few slots higher. So you try to move up. If you can’t you draft the player you really like and do something else with the other picks. Now if they do really like 2-3 players, I’m fine with that. I just don’t see it as likely.

  301. If you can’t find guys you like at 19 and 21 maybe you should be in a different line of work. There are good players selected that late in the draft every year. I refuse to believe that all productive NBA players are going to be off the board when the 19 and 21 picks roll around.

  302. ess-dog: Is that the best Minny could get for Rubio?

    MIN traded him for a single 1st in 2017. Now that he’s really bad at basketball and still making $18M next year, it’s surprising that he didn’t cost MIN more to unload. It may be an expiring contract, but he was a bad player on a terrible team.

  303. Not sure we’re getting a draft thread, so here’s my final board:

    2021 Big Board
    1. Jalen Suggs
    2. Jalen Green
    3. Cade Cunningham
    4. Evan Mobley
    5. Scottie Barnes
    6. Josh Giddey
    7. Alperen Sengun
    8. Franz Wagner
    9. Jalen Johnson
    10. James Bouknight
    11. Jaden Springer
    12. Cam Thomas
    13. Moses Moody
    14. Jared Butler
    15. Jonathan Kuminga
    16. Josh Christopher
    17. Sharife Cooper
    18. Chris Duarte
    19. Ayo Dosunmu
    20. Nah’Shon Hyland
    21. Miles McBride
    22. Tre Mann
    23. Keon Johnson
    24. Usman Garuba
    25. Joel Ayayi
    26. Charles Bassey
    27. Isaiah Jackson
    28. Davion Mitchell
    29. Corey Kispert
    30. Trey Murphy III
    31. Neemias Queta
    32. Mckinley Wright
    33. Justin Champagnie
    34. JT Thor
    35. Quentin Grimes
    36. Joe Wieskamp
    37. Aaron Henry
    38. Joshua Primo
    39. Jason Preston
    40. Day’ron Sharpe
    41. Isaiah Todd
    42. DJ Steward
    43. David Johnson
    44. Matthew Hurt
    45. Kai Jones
    46. Kessler Edwards
    47. Jose Alvarado
    48. Daishen Nix
    49. Greg Brown
    50. Ziaire Williams
    51. Scottie Lewis
    52. Jay Huff
    53. Isaiah Livers
    54. Santi Aldama
    55. Juhann Begarin
    56. Luka Garza
    57. Trendon Watford
    58. Vrenz Bleijenbergh
    59. DJ Carton
    60. BJ Boston

    Wright, Champagnie, and Wieskamp are my favorite deep sleepers. In terms of guys who will make me look stupid in 5 years, Keon Johnson scares me the most. The tools are there. He just has too far to go for me to rank him higher. Having said that, I would be tempted to grab him over some guys I have ranked higher if he falls to us.

  304. I feel like Sexton’s definitely a Knick now with Cleveland nabbing Rubio. I’m ambivalent..

  305. I like Dosunmu and hope the Knicks draft him. I don’t think they will.

  306. Ben R:
    If our management thinks that a borderline playoff team, that desperately needs depth and has 8 roster spots open, taking three players in a deep draft is bad then every single one of them needs to be fired.

    Exactly this.

    The thing about the Dolan Knicks is that their ideas and the things you hear about their decision-making process and philosophy are always so weird.

  307. Sexton is young and gets buckets I’m sure there are other teams that would be interested

  308. I really don’t want Sexton but I would rather get him then trade both picks for Williams, Murphy, Duarte, or Mitchell. If we are going to trade both picks for a bad player at least get a bad player with upside.

  309. i really hope that the FO surprises me.. but i’m getting this sick feeling i usually get on draft night… the last 5-6 drafts have been fairly predictable so the names surrounding the knicks in all these leaks probably are a good chunk of our board… and it’s a list of caa guys and whoever thibs happened to like at the moment…

    so i’m preparing for the worst… just having a bad feeling about all this…

  310. I’m not against trading for Sexton at a reasonable price. But he’s young and scores, which means GMs will like him, so I am sure Cleveland has more than one offer to choose from. So I agree, he’s probably gone, but it’s not necessarily to the Knicks.

  311. Let’s keep note of who Knickerblogger Hive Mind would have drafted tonight when our spots come up, and compare that against the actual results.

    KHM almost always wins. Not always though! Immanuel Quickley says hai

  312. Haven’t been on the board in a while, but good to see some solid draft discourse even if we aren’t in the lottery ha ha. Honestly this is the first year in a while I really haven’t been invested in the draft. Wouldn’t hate if we traded up and took a shot at GIddey, but if we can come away with some decent perimeter shooters I will be mostly happy.

    Biggest intrigue feels like it will be around what happens with Simmons and Westbrook.

  313. It’s nice being in Nashville for the draft. I can watch it without worrying about falling asleep.

  314. If Garuba has that sort if buyout, you basically have to take him in the second round. Then you can sign him to a front loaded contract that lets him pay his share of the buyout fee.

    Of course if he gets drafted really high he can also pay the fee. Peloton has him as his number eight, so if he falls into the second round that could be a steal.

  315. geo:
    wow, looks like gerritt cole may have lost his spider grip…

    and we have like 45 million a yr in him for the next century or so…

  316. I like Dosunmu and hope the Knicks draft him. I don’t think they will.

    djphan got me hyped for dosunmu…great size, 6’5″ 200 lbs, great energy (that’s right, living out in cali – so, the energy thing is important), good stats…

  317. and we have like 45 million a yr in him for the next century or so…

    him and giancarlo’s salaries could match the gdp of most island nations…

    at the time though, who knew baseball was gonna crack down on pitchers and sticky substances…

    the giancarlo trade was a mistake before it even happened – which is 100% ohtani’s fault for not wanting to come east…

  318. @wojespn
    Detroit is finalizing a trade to send C Mason Plumlee and the No. 37 pick to Charlotte for the No. 57 pick, sources tell ESPN.

    Salary dump.

  319. ***Let’s keep note of who Knickerblogger Hive Mind would have drafted tonight when our spots come up, and compare that against the actual results.***

    Hive mind all over the place this year. No one name has dominated. (Just look at Z-Man’s list: there are 19 players he’d take with the 19th pick!)

  320. Some basic draft rules I follow:
    If a player is above 22 I want at least two dominant years or their upside is too low.
    No 1st round picks on bad college players based on their high school pedigree.
    Also, both scoring and efficiency matter, if the pts/40 or the TS% is too low it is a big red flag
    Players should do at least two things well

    NO TRADE UP (except for Sengun or one of the top 5 players)

    Players I do not want in this draft:

    Mitchell – Too small, not productive enough before this year, older
    Duarte – Too old for a non-dominant player, not productive enough before this year
    Murphy – Didn’t score enough for a junior-aged prospect, no shake, 4 2pa/40 and 2 fta/40 is a huge red flag
    Williams – Was terrible
    Boston – Was terrible
    Kispert – Just a shooter, not dominant enough before this year
    Jones – I just don’t see it, he was not productive and he is a Sophomore
    Thomas – Great scorer but I have a hard time seeing his fit in the NBA

    Players I would love that could be there: Sengun, Springer, Cooper, Grimes (with 32), Dosunmu (with 32), Moody, either Johnson

    After that, there are players I like and players I like less but no one else in range of our first two picks would make me actively sad. I would prefer no Jackson, Sharpe, or Garuba but I could live with taking one of them.

  321. One would think they can’t fuck this up … there’s tons of players available with lottery potential. If we keep our picks , which we don’t know know till FA opens, they did something. In other words based on last year, I would grade the last draft as a B So we should be positive.

  322. Wasserman still has us taking Williams at 19, but has switched to Bones at 21. (And still Grimes at 32.)

    If the Knicks keep their picks, one figures to be a ball-handler. Sources say they are very high on Hyland and are targeting him at No. 21 if they can’t move.

  323. Also, both scoring and efficiency matter, if the pts/40 or the TS% is too low it is a big red flag

    I agree with just about everything you said, but will nitpick and say NCAA TS% doesn’t have a ton of predictive value because 3PT% is so volatile. If a guy has a strong 2PT% but weak 3PT% and thus a mediocre TS%, it doesn’t bother me much (assuming his FT% doesn’t indicate shooting is a big problem). In this draft Josh Christopher is a good example of the kind of player I’m talking about.

  324. Donnie Walsh:
    ***Let’s keep note of who Knickerblogger Hive Mind would have drafted tonight when our spots come up, and compare that against the actual results.***

    Hive mind all over the place this year. No one name has dominated. (Just look at Z-Man’s list: there are 19 players he’d take with the 19th pick!)

    The only hive mind conclusions I see are not to trade up for Mitchell and also maybe not trade up at all, just make our picks. We were split on whether to trade a pick and players for Sexton.

  325. What was that Coen Brothers movie, Cronin, Where Art Thou?

    Down to the wire. Will put one up at 8.

  326. TNFH – I actually agree. I think 2pt% is the most important and then ft% and 3pt% are more the case of benchmarks of either they are very good, especially on lots of attempts and that is a huge plus or they are bad and its a red flag.

    Like for instance, I would normally hate Grimes because he has one season of good 3pt shooting and a terrible 2pt% but he had a very good 2pt% in his Sophomore year and such a high volume of threes both of his big potential red flags have enough answers that I am satisfied especially with Houston’s success this year with him as the only NBA prospect.

  327. Had a busy day, just got home (2 AM here)
    I need some sleep but I can’t go to bed, I’m just too scared…
    I remember the 96 disaster but I don’t remember a draft where we choose from a pool this wide… mocks and rumors are all over the place…

  328. mase: One would think they can’t fuck this up …

    Adam Silver: “And with the 19th pick, the New York Knicks select… BRANDON BOSTON” :D

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