NY Post: Tom Thibodeau’s effect on Knicks has been drastic

From Greg Joyce:

From the minute the Knicks hired Tom Thibodeau as their new head coach in July, their defense figured to be in for an upgrade.

But there was no guarantee a tangible change — and the wins that followed — would come this quickly.

The Knicks left New York on Dec. 27 fresh off their first win of the season, a surprising defeat of the Bucks. They returned on Tuesday as winners of four of their last five entering Wednesday night’s showdown against the Jazz at the Garden, with plenty of strong efforts fueling their surge but the defense chief among them.

“I think the togetherness is a big part of it. I think the willingness to share the ball, to play hard for each other,” Thibodeau said after Monday’s 113-108 win over the Hawks. “[But] it starts with our defense and the rebounding. We still have to get our turnovers down but I think just the overall way they’re playing for each other. I think that’s a big part of winning. They come in and they work every day.”

Last year, under David Fizdale and then interim coach Mike Miller, the Knicks had the NBA’s 23rd-ranked defensive rating (112.4). Through seven games this season under Thibodeau, they had the NBA’s ninth-best defensive rating (106.1).

I just wanted a new thread before tomorrow night’s game thread.

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170 thoughts to “NY Post: Tom Thibodeau’s effect on Knicks has been drastic”

  1. it’ll be interesting over time to see what the players really think of having thibs on the bench…

    he’s a water fountain to a bunch of folks who’ve been stuck in a perpetual desert of suckitude…you would think the buy in factor would be pretty strong amongst the players…

    right now it sure seems like thibs has their attention…

    crazy to think we out coached and played some decent teams during the 4th quarter…

    that’s certainly different…

  2. okay, so is the new d-bait whether or not “optimal/idealized” julius is worth somewhere between 26 and 32 aav?

    or is it that we should sell yesterday for a pick in the top 20?

    it’s funny, until the season began – I was all for a julius plus other guys trade for mike conley…

    to heck with that – I wanna keep this version of julius, I don’t want to trade him…he’s playing like lebron right now…sure, he ain’t gonna be this good all year, at least I don’t think so, but – no doubt this version of julius is an important piece on a winning basketball team…

    I think his turnovers are gonna go down…

  3. I got fios, first I lost the dodgers, then the lakers, and now this year can’t watch the clippers, they’ve all moved to spectrum…

  4. I’ve done some research on this question on the internet and I’m pretty confident that I know how Thibodeau is making people on other teams miss open 3 pointers. He’s controlling things though the 5G towers that chip people and give them the virus that causes them to vote for pedophile Satanists whose potent baleful influence extends up to and actually well beyond the 3 point line.

    Somewhat surprisingly, from a Kabbalistic perspective, you cannot simply rearrange the letters in Hugo Chavez’ name to spell “Thomas Joseph Thibodeau Jr”, no matter how hard you try. However, it is undeniably the case that every single one of the letters needed to spell his name can be found in the keystone sentence: “George Soros, the Clinton Foundation, the Venezuelan government, Antifa, and Biden are the five-headed sulphurous gorgon of Armageddon.” Well, every letter except for the “j”. Tell me that’s just a coincidence.

  5. relative to what you might find on the internet these days – that sounds pretty reasonable…

    I’m sure that little DC get together tomorrow will go smoothly…we actually got a small preview in pennsylvania today on what’ll be happening on the hill tomorrow…

    can’t wait for the game to start…save us knickerbockers…

  6. Unreason:
    I’ve done some research on this question on the internet and I’m pretty confident that I know how Thibodeau is making people on other teams miss open 3 pointers. He’s controlling things though the 5G towers that chip people and give them the virus that causes them to vote for pedophile Satanists whose potent baleful influence extends up to and actually well beyond the 3 point line.

    Somewhat surprisingly, from a Kabbalistic perspective, you cannot simply rearrange the letters in Hugo Chavez’ name to spell “Thomas Joseph Thibodeau Jr”, no matter how hard you try. However, it is undeniably the case that every single one of the letters needed to spell his name can be found in the keystone sentence: “George Soros, the Clinton Foundation, the Venezuelan government, Antifa, and Biden are the five-headed sulphurous gorgon of Armageddon.” Well, every letter except for the “j”. Tell me that’s just a coincidence.

    Soundest, most irrefutable logic I’ve heard all week.

  7. Unreason:
    I’ve done some research on this question on the internet and I’m pretty confident that I know how Thibodeau is making people on other teams miss open 3 pointers. He’s controlling things though the 5G towers that chip people and give them the virus that causes them to vote for pedophile Satanists whose potent baleful influence extends up to and actually well beyond the 3 point line.

    Somewhat surprisingly, from a Kabbalistic perspective, you cannot simply rearrange the letters in Hugo Chavez’ name to spell “Thomas Joseph Thibodeau Jr”, no matter how hard you try. However, it is undeniably the case that every single one of the letters needed to spell his name can be found in the keystone sentence: “George Soros, the Clinton Foundation, the Venezuelan government, Antifa, and Biden are the five-headed sulphurous gorgon of Armageddon.” Well, every letter except for the “j”. Tell me that’s just a coincidence.

    This is the kind of rational, thoughtful take I come here for, though I’m not sure you’ve taken into account Thibs’ alchemical work in search of the Universal Panacea for NBA perimeter defense. Clearly, he’s made some breakthroughs this season, which I attribute to his more hermeneutical approach to the Gnostic gospels and the sacred tenets of the sagacious philosopher-gamblers of our very own Knickerblogger.

  8. Man did the Jazz really stink the joint yesterday!
    That stinker alone probably lowers our chances to win tonight by 30% (Let’s go Knicks!).

    Best game of the year so far for Vassell, just let the Spurs’ stuff work on him…

  9. Not gonna lie..with all the injuries, I’m a little worried Thibs old playing time management habit is gonna stick around the rest of the season. We need guys to get healthy before Thibs gets comfortable with it

  10. I wouldn’t call it resting but something like “Let me check out rotations without NYpress busting my balls” kind of stuff

    Agreed.

  11. What a great morning! Even with my dog waking me up at 445am.
    We’ve turned the Turtle into minority leader, it’s a beautiful winter day in NYC, and the Knicks play tonight!
    Only thing that could’ve made it better is if the Jazz beat the Nets in double OT, but you know what, I can get by on some measure of democracy being saved, at least for a couple years.

    Anyway, regarding tonight’s game – will be very interesting. Utah has a pretty bizarre starting lineup, with two PG-sized players (Mitchell/Conley) next to two SF-size players (Royce O’Neal and Bogdanovic) and of course Gobert.

    I imagine they’ll prob start with Mitchell on RJ or maybe try and hide Mitchell on Bullock to save energy. I am pretty sure RJ will be able to take Bogdanovic to school, and Randle has 3 inches and like 30 lbs on O’Neal.

  12. Can Trump be impeached even if he no longer holds office? He really should be prevented from ever holding federal office again. Luckily, he never was anything close to an autocrat in terms of a program or policy or anything like that when he was in office, but he’s a total autocrat when it comes to his tenure in office and our elections generally. His behavior in that space has been absurd and far beyond the pale. That can’t be allowed. The best thing for the country would be to impeach him.

  13. Shams:

    Detroit Pistons rookie Killian Hayes has suffered a labral tear in his hip, sources tell
    @TheAthleticNBA @Stadium. Hayes, the No. 7 pick in the NBA Draft, sustained the injury on a drive to the basket in Milwaukee on Monday.

  14. Alan:
    Shams:

    that really sucks – will seemingly need surgery and rehab — if I remember correctly A-Rod had that, had surgery, and was out most of a season. And Isiah Thomas had that and hasn’t been the same since. Rough for a rookie who had limited athleticism to begin with.

  15. Bad break for Hayes. Hip problems are a serious deal for athletes.

    I’m happy that Democrats will control the US government. I am worried about our democracy as I watch the civil war brewing. Half this country, it seems, is out of it’s mind.

    Tonight will be tough for the Knicks. Thankfully, it’s the second of a back-to-back for Utah. Unfortunately they were spanked by the Nyets and are going to come in motivated.

  16. That really sucks for Hayes… he seems like a good kid.

    Lots of talk about Hali becoming the favorite to win rookie of the year. And yeah he’s playing great. But Quickley is playing better (albeit in 1/3rd the minutes Hali has played).

    Hopefully Quick will get the chance to prove himself with more minutes.

  17. I’m on record as being thrilled that Hayes was not out pick, and nothing I saw in his first 7 games made me feel any differently, but that really sucks. Seems like a great kid who works really hard and deserves much better. I wonder if the Pistons pushed him too hard, although he seemed as physically and mentally ready to play in the NBA as any 19yo.

  18. About Hali,

    heard a podcast with Windhorst and Spears (from the Undefeated), looks like they’re sure he pressed to go to the Kings (he’s in love with the pace of their system and the idea to play with Fox) and his agent spurned a couple of teams not giving them the medicals before the draft.

    They didn’t call the teams by name, only add that there were talks that the Bulls want him with the 4th pick, but whoever they are, if true (and for now I’ll give them the benefit of the doubt), it’s very strange.

  19. @IanBegley
    Alec Burks underwent further testing on his ankle and will be re-evaluated in 7-10 days, Knicks say.

    Would be nice to have Burks back, though I do enjoy the Quivers backcourt in this limited sampling.

  20. I know it’s a cliché, but consistent effort on defense and team oriented thinking add extra wins in the NBA. I earned that lesson in the late 60s and nothing I’ve seen since then has changed my mind. Of course you need unselfish players willing to work really hard, sacrifice, and buy in (not all talented players fall into that category), but it also takes the right captain steering the ship otherwise it’s just words.

  21. Max:
    About Hali,

    heard a podcast with Windhorst and Spears (from the Undefeated), looks like they’re sure he pressed to go to the Kings (he’s in love with the pace of their system and the idea to play with Fox) and his agent spurned a couple of teams not giving them the medicals before the draft.

    They didn’t call the teams by name, only add that there were talks that the Bulls want him with the 4th pick, but whoever they are, if true (and for now I’ll give them the benefit of the doubt), it’s very strange.

    Those guys are good reporters and lots of other people have said this so I assume it’s probably true, but it’s worth saying that it’s not very strange, it’s legitimately crazy. The difference in salary over the first 4 years between going in the 4-6 range where he was mocked and all these stories have floated that he “could’ve” been picked and going 12th is the difference between $25-$30M and $18M. That’s way too much hard cash to give up on the front end in the hope that some intangible benefits will increase your career earnings (which could very easily be minimal beyond your first deal including for reasons totally beyond your control, i.e. injury), particularly when those intangible benefits involve one of the worst organizations and one of the worst coaches in the league.

    By the way, the “pace” that he loves so much was 20th in the league last year (all the way up to 14th this year!). He’s off to a great start and it may very well work out totally fine for him but it sounds like he’s getting some very bad advice to me.

  22. Alan: Would be nice to have Burks back, though I do enjoy the Quivers backcourt in this limited sampling.

    This is really, really annoying.
    How many days he’s been out already? Today they put him in a walking boot. Why wait?
    Are they learning from the Yankees’ School Of Screwing Injuries?

  23. I wouldn’t call it resting but something like “Let me check out rotations without NYpress busting my balls” kind of stuff

    Agreed.

    More made-up shit, some things never change…

  24. Half this country, it seems, is out of it’s mind.

    Would that be the half that elected P T Barnum because they were so sick of the status quo or the half that elected a guy that wasn’t a serious rotation player in his prime and that is now in the early stages of senility, all because they hated P T Barnum? :-)

    The entire country is fvcked that we can’t do better than this.

    Can we talk Knicks please?

  25. Immanuefrid Quickton would be a very good guard, maybe one of the best we have seen in a Knicks jersey in a while.

    I hate when players get injured but now when Hayes doesn’t match up to my draft hype of him at least I have a hip injury to point to.

    Halliburton’s strategy there does seem completely insane. That’s a huge amount of guaranteed money to give up. But maybe he’s just a baller.

  26. It’s weird hearing about a guy steering himself TOWARDS the Kings.

    The new management does seem a lot more competent, but it sounds like they have an issue with Bagley now (his dad’s trade demand) — aside from the primary issue, which is that he sucks.

  27. Max: This is really, really annoying.
    How many days he’s been out already? Today they put him in a walking boot. Why wait?
    Are they learning from the Yankees’ School Of Screwing Injuries?

    Knick doctors have been the worst for at least 20 years, so this isn’t surprising at all.

  28. ess-dog:
    It’s weird hearing about a guy steering himself TOWARDS the Kings.

    The new management does seem a lot more competent, but it sounds like they have an issue with Bagley now (his dad’s trade demand) — aside from the primary issue, which is that he sucks.

    I watched Bagley play versus the Harden-less Rockets, he went for a dunk/layup 3-4 times and I’ve never seen a player do it so soft since the infamous Charles Smith. He made Knox dunk attempts looks like Godzilla’s.

  29. Kelly Loeffler and David Perdue were two of the most dreadful people in American politics and OH BOY is that saying something. Ciao, you despicable crooks.

    That Hayes news is devastating. Anecdotally hip injuries seem like bad news across all sports. Hopefully his youth makes him an outlier there.

    Re: Haliburton I listened to that pod too and got the impression they were talking about avoiding maybe 1-2 teams in the top 8 or so, not necessarily him trying to get to the Kings specifically. Like stam said that would be so truly insane it’s a little hard to imagine.

    Regardless, I’m not sure how much teams should change their draft strategy based on this kind of thing. It’s well-known Curry wanted to fall to the Knicks instead of the Warriors, for example. If someone is the highest player on your big board I say get him in your building for 7 years. That’s a lot of time to sell him on your team.

  30. Bagley’s dad has demanded a trade. The Kings actually picked him over Luka Doncic and Trey Young on purpose.

  31. thenoblefacehumper:
    Kelly Loeffler and David Perdue were two of the most dreadful people in American politics and OH BOY is that saying something. Ciao, you despicable crooks.

    That Hayes news is devastating. Anecdotally hip injuries seem like bad news across all sports. Hopefully his youth makes him an outlier there.

    Re: Haliburton I listened to that pod too and got the impression they were talking about avoiding maybe 1-2 teams in the top 8 or so, not necessarily him trying to get to the Kings specifically. Like stam said that would be so truly insane it’s a little hard to imagine.

    Regardless, I’m not sure how much teams should change their draft strategy based on this kind of thing. It’s well-known Curry wanted to fall to the Knicks instead of the Warriors, for example. If someone is the highest player on your big board I say get him in your building for 7 years. That’s a lot of time to sell him on your team.

    I agree 100% on the Curry analogy,

    Spears literally said “He was sold on the Kings’ pace” and add that his agent is close friend with Luke Walton.
    Windhorst, like everybody else, was bewildered :-)

  32. I could swear I read that Burks was close to coming back. This is blow to the bench and means RJ is going to have to keep playing a lot of minutes.

  33. looks like aldridge had a similar injury in college and seemed to recover ok… no other good comps though.. flynn… isaiah thomas(altho it seems like he refused surgery)… webster… wilson chandler.. he’s young enough where he could overcome it…. hopefully he does…

  34. i have no idea why haliburton would willingly want to goto the kings…. they have deaaron fox and …. it’s the kings…

    sounds like agent or media bs…

  35. Someone posted something about smaller guards getting a lot of hip injuries after IQ had one. I had never heard that before.

    Bulls go to 4-4 on the backs of Garrett Temple, Thaddeus Young, and Denzel Valentine. (on/off data suggests). This is something I can definitely get behind.

  36. thenoblefacehumper: Kelly Loeffler and David Perdue were two of the most dreadful people in American politics and OH BOY is that saying something.

    And, yet, the election was still a near-run thing. Read an article last night which reported that a pro-Trump group paid for ~100 billboards throughout red GA urging Republicans not to vote for Perdue & Loeffler as punishment for their failure to help Trump overturn Biden’s win in Georgia. Early indications are that turnout did drop some 20% from November in many of the reddest counties wherein the GOP needed to run up the score (the fall off was only ~10% in the blue strongholds) This may well have reversed the outcome in at least one, if not both, of the Senate races.

    Donald Trump has been an unmitigated disaster for the US but he turned out to be a godsend for the Democratic party. In four years he had a hand in helping to flip the House, the Presidency, and now the Senate from red to blue.

  37. This Burks thing sure looks bad from the outside. He was originally listed as “questionable” for the very first game he missed 12/29 and wasn’t even downgraded to doubtful until the day of the game. Now, more than a week later, they’re ruling him our for 7-10 days and putting him in a walking boot?

    Either he reinjured himself in practice at some point and we haven’t heard about it yet or the original sprain was badly misdiagnosed. Either way it’s not a great look for the medical staff. That’s the kind of shit I really hope Rose cleans up. There’s no excuse for a huge market team with bottomless pockets to be so poor in areas where you’re not even constrained by the cap and where your home market is a huge advantage. It should be an absolute gimme for the Knicks to have one of the best training and medical staffs in the league.

  38. The Bulls need to trade Lavine to a points-hungry team yesterday… I can’t understand how they haven’t done this yet. The Warriors likely would’ve given them quality a pick for him before the season.

  39. America’s democracy? Being on the outside, we just hope you guys can get through this and continue to be a beacon of freedom and democracy for the world.

    Knicks momentum? We all know even bad teams have good strings of games, right? So it’s better to enjoy and wait for a better sample size, because right now we’re probably wildly overrated.

    Hayes? Damn, i like the kid, he was my favorite (although with very little margin over Hali and Deni). Things weren’t going well for him, and now it’ll be even harder, probably a year out and still to see if he gets to full health again.

    Hali wanting the Kings? Man, i have to get the number of his drug dealer, that must be some powerful stuff! ;D

    10 more days for Burks? It’s bad for him, and for the team, but right now everything is clicking just fine, so he can take it slowly.

  40. Donald Trump has been an unmitigated disaster for the US but he turned out to be a godsend for the Democratic party. In four years he had a hand in helping to flip the House, the Presidency, and now the Senate from red to blue.

    But now the Dems absolutely must play hardball with the GOP, meaning they have to move in lockstep and stop any infighting, so they can fix everything DT broke and move forward.

  41. @IanBegley
    For people into nicknames: Austin Rivers isn’t a fan of ‘Quivers’ or ‘Rickley’ nicknames for he and Immanuel Quickley but he thinks having a nickname for the backcourt is a good idea, so he’ll take ‘Quivers’ for now.

  42. Deeefense: Would that be the half that elected P T Barnum because they were so sick of the status quo or the half that elected a guy that wasn’t a serious rotation player in his prime and that is now in the early stages of senility, allbecause they hated P T Barnum? :-)

    The entire country is fvcked that we can’t do better than this.
    Can we talk Knicks please?

    I rarely engage in political talk here because I agree with you about that. You’ll be hard-pressed to find me ranting here. But today is one of the most important days in American history – not an understatement. The GA election impacts my life directly, in many ways. Oh, and for the record, I’m a centrist Democrat that supported Biden from day-1. I leave my venomous posts for Twitter.

    BTW, Biden isn’t senile – that’s just political hogwash. My father died of Alzheimers and had it for a decade. My mother, at the end of her life, had to be committed because of severe dementia. I might not be a shrink, but I know the difference. If you’ve ever watched a Biden town house meeting you would never say that. He’s as sharp as a tack and thinks on his feet.

  43. Passage in The Ringer piece re: our invisible sixth man:

    That might not be entirely random. Several teams over the past few seasons—the Bucks, Celtics, and Raptors—have allowed boatloads of triples and still managed to stifle opposing offenses at league-best rates, Watch the tape of the 3s New York allows and you can see something similar at work: hard late contests to muddy shooters’ sight lines, but also seemingly judicious choices to let bigs and shaky-shooting wings fire, especially above the break. The big difference: Milwaukee, Boston, and Toronto also severely limited shots at the rim. Right now, the Knicks are letting opponents get more looks at the basket than anybody but the Pacers.

  44. Donald Trump has been an unmitigated disaster for the US but he turned out to be a godsend for the Democratic party. In four years he had a hand in helping to flip the House, the Presidency, and now the Senate from red to blue.

    I think that’s a real inaccurate way to paint Trump’s presidency. We now have a conservative dominated SCOTUS for what? 50 years? And it was all because of the three right-wing justices he was able to appoint to the court. Entire generations will have to live with the fall out of that monumental shift every time they strike down any progressive law passed by Congress or executive order issued from the White House as unconstitutional.

  45. thenamestsam:
    This Burks thing sure looks bad from the outside. He was originally listed as “questionable” for the very first game he missed 12/29 and wasn’t even downgraded to doubtful until the day of the game. Now, more than a week later, they’re ruling him our for 7-10 days and putting him in a walking boot?

    Either he reinjured himself in practice at some point and we haven’t heard about it yet or the original sprain was badly misdiagnosed. Either way it’s not a great look for the medical staff. That’s the kind of shit I really hope Rose cleans up. There’s no excuse for a huge market team with bottomless pockets to be so poor in areas where you’re not even constrained by the cap and where your home market is a huge advantage. It should be an absolute gimme for the Knicks to have one of the best training and medical staffs in the league.

    As someone who’s had so many sprained ankles that I can’t count them (both), you really can’t tell in the first two days how fast it will heal. Doctors need for the swelling to go down before assessing that. They waited until yesterday to do the tests because they’ve been on the road. I had a minor sprain that required over two months to full recover.

  46. Alan:
    Right now, the Knicks are letting opponents get more looks at the basket than anybody but the Pacers.

    I’ve noticed this as well. And the real difference here is having Mitch back there. He might already be the best rim protector in the game. If he goes out for an extended period of time our team is really fucked.

  47. Yeah, it seemed to get to the discussion yesterday we all had on the Knicks defense.

    I forget who, but someone highlighted the idea that that Knicks may be giving up certain types of threes at certain places from certain players.
    Thibs’ defenses are all about creating lanes and channeling opponents into certain spaces, whether funneling a penetrator to our shot blockers or allowing open 3s to poor shooters.

    The seem to have an organized scheme and players are disciplined.

    But lots hinges on Robinson and Noel. This guys are key.

    Alan:
    Passage in The Ringer piece re: our invisible sixth man:

  48. Thinking about Hayes, what you guys think the Pistons are doing? Are they tanking? The record suggests that, but then why sign Grant, Plumlee and others? And why keep DRose, for that matter. Blake they have to keep, because they don’t want to send a pick and nobody is taking on him without that.
    Well, i don’t understand what they’re doing at all, they seem like the old Knicks to me! :P

  49. Anyone surprised that the lineup of .A. Rivers, .J. Randle, .K. Knox II, .R. Barrett, .I. Quickley has produced the best +/- for us this young sample size season?

  50. GoNYGoNYGo – Tanking forever: BTW, Biden isn’t senile – that’s just political hogwash. My father died of Alzheimers and had it for a decade. My mother, at the end of her life, had to be committed because of severe dementia. I might not be a shrink, but I know the difference. If you’ve ever watched a Biden town house meeting you would never say that. He’s as sharp as a tack and thinks on his feet.

      

    I am 61. I know what full blown Alzheimers, dementia, senility etc.. look like from watching a number of my aunts and uncles slowly decline and until they didn’t know who they were and couldn’t recognize anyone. But I also know what the early stages look like when you struggle to find the right words, start babbling, lose your train of thought, get brain freeze, start slurring a little etc.. Biden still has good moments as they all do, but there’s no chance in hell he’s mentally fit to be president.

    I’m not sure many people his age are to be truthful. They are the exceptions not the rule. Personally, I wouldn’t trust Biden on my co-op board and I was a fan of his decades ago. He’s not fit. Obviously this is not a defense of Trump. I wouldn’t put Trump on my co-op board either, but for different reasons. He’d rob it for his own benefit.

    The peak maturity/experience/mental sharpness range for politicians is probably mid to late 40s through early 60s. Then you should be in a park somewhere playing checkers or arguing about the Frank on a Knicks forum like me. We need to do a MUCH better job selecting candidates. The last sharp person we had was Bill Clinton.. I’d gladly take him back despite the corruption and extreme sexcapades over the dregs we’ve had since.

  51. In the end, no one deserves a label.
    The NY Sack Exchange got their name because they were sacking people.

    4-3 entitles you to, well, being called a Knick.

    lol

  52. Deefense, Joe Biden has ALWAYS stuttered and paused and such when he speaks because he has a speech impediment and has had one his entire life. Its pretty well documented and he talks about it a lot.

    Speech impediments have nothing to do with mental capacity. He is not senile. And its ridiculous for Trump, who is only a few years younger than Biden, to push that narrative when he constantly spews complete nonsense.

  53. But I also know what the early stages look like when you struggle to find the right words, start babbling, lose your train of thought, get brain freeze, start slurring a little etc.. Biden still has good moments as they all do, but there’s no chance in hell he’s mentally fit to be president.

    If you bothered to read any reporting about the man over the last forty years, you might know that he has a stutter. But reporting is fake news, so–

  54. Hayes was making Ntilikina look like Tony Parker. That explains a lot of Detroit’s record. But yeah, the weird decision to plunder the afterthought starters from Denver won’t be much better. End of the day, they have a good shot at Suggs et al.

  55. Alan:
    I can’t speak to why the Pistons signed Grant, but The Athletic has an interesting piece on him wanting to go to a majority black city with a black coach and a black GM.

    I can’t read the article due to a paywall but I question the sincerity of these types of claims unless the player left more money on the table from another bidder.

  56. Deeefense: I am 61.I know what full blown Alzheimers, dementia, senility etc.. look like from watching a number of my aunts and uncles slowly decline and until they didn’t know who they were and couldn’t recognize anyone.But I also know what the early stages look like when you struggle to find the right words, start babbling, lose your train of thought, get brain freeze, start slurring a little etc..Biden still has good moments as they all do, but there’s no chance in hell he’s mentally fit to be president.

    etc…

    I’ll just say about that that it’s arguable which candidate was more psychologically fit for the office. Like I said, see if you can find a Youtube of a Biden campaign townhall. It’ll change your mind.

    Yes, a younger candidate is a good idea as long as they are not demon spawn.

  57. swiftandabundant:
    Deefense, Joe Biden has ALWAYS stuttered and paused and such when he speaks because he has a speech impediment and has had one his entire life. Its pretty well documented and he talks about it a lot. Speech impediments have nothing to do with mental capacity. He is not senile. And its ridiculous for Trump, who is only a few years younger than Biden, to push that narrative when he constantly spews complete nonsense.

    I totally agree with this. I am a retired doctor with a stuttering speech impediment. I was rejected at one medical school because of this affliction and have had prospective patients hang up on me when I get a “stuttering attack.” I know stuttering from a personal point of view and from friends with the same affliction. I have also worked with patients in dementia groups rather than the small sample size of family. Deeefense, Biden suffers from stuttering and not dementia, plain and simple!

  58. I made the same mistake of thinking that, Defense. Although it seems that he used to control his speech impediments a bit better in his younger days, he proved many times that he can think and speak quickly and coherently. (he does have many, many, many gaffes, but hey, if we survived gaffmaster Trump.. [did we, though [maybe not?.. {shit…}]])
    Seriously, we need to watch where we get our news, because half has Biden looking like a cultural white knight, the other as a gomer. Neither is true.

  59. BTW, Biden isn’t senile – that’s just political hogwash. My father died of Alzheimers and had it for a decade. My mother, at the end of her life, had to be committed because of severe dementia. I might not be a shrink, but I know the difference.

    hey GO NY, i’m sorry to hear that…that seems like some really tough stuff to go through…heartbreaking and frightening to be sure…

    not to get too personal, but, what steps can you, or have you taken in regards to aging and your own cognitive abilities?

  60. i know austin is in the new kid halo phase right now, but we really don’t need a nickname that conjoins our glimmering hope-and-dream nightcrawler rookie with a thoroughly mediocre journeyman he happens to play with sometimes. unless we want to go with ‘the quick and the tread.’

  61. I’m not a medical expert but it does seem to me that Biden is sundowning. Even if you compare his speech and statements to just 5-8 years ago its clear he’s experience some mental decline, which is very normal for a man of his age. And its not as if there isn’t already a precedent for a major political party protecting and presenting an incumbent politician with cognitive decline. Reagan probably experienced Alzheimers in the second term of his presidency. Strom Thurmond was in poor mental condition at the end of his political career. And just recently, Jane Mayer wrote an article published in The New Yorker about Dianne Feinstein’s apparent senility.

  62. Ntilakilla: I can’t read the article due to a paywall but I question the truth value of these types of claims unless the player left more money on the table from another bidder.

    From what I remember when he signed, Denver was willing to at least match and potentially go higher. Several reports said Grant really just wanted to play in Detroit, which left everyone else scratching their head a bit. So this actually makes some sense.

    As a resident of Colorado, I can tell you that Denver is a very white city and Colorado is a very white state, (although there is a significant Hispanic population). Aurora is probably the blackest part of Colorado and still doesn’t have many black people (~16% of Aurora’s population).

    Some quick research and back of the napkin math indicates Detroit has ~2.3x as many black people as the entire state of Colorado.

    The city of Detroit has over 8x as many black people as Denver despite the cities being roughly the same size, with Denver being slightly larger.

  63. From what I remember when he signed, Denver was willing to at least match and potentially go higher. Several reports said Grant really just wanted to play in Detroit, which left everyone else scratching their head a bit. So this actually makes some sense.

    Ah. Then his explanation makes sense. He must really have felt uncomfortable with the prospect of living in Colorado to potentially leave millions on the table.

  64. Z-man: (shhhhh…don’t make hayes-ntilikina comparisons…some moron did that prior to the draft and it didn’t go over well…)

    lol, I was one of the people strongly disagreeing with you. He’s still young, and tall PGs take longer to develop, but holy crap are the early returns bad.

    But want to put the emphasis back on the fact it’s really horrible for a young player who makes a living off his athleticism to have such a major injury.

  65. Alan:
    I can’t speak to why the Pistons signed Grant, but The Athletic has an interesting piece on him wanting to go to a majority black city with a black coach and a black GM.

    Very interesting indeed. It’s refreshing to see so many players being socially aware nowadays, i hope he does well and can make an impact on the community.
    As for the black frontoffice-coach tandem, as long as they’re not better than the Knicks, i hope they do better than our own black frontoffice-coach tandem did.

  66. Querly Q-Word, Pen Name of Pen Name Early Bird: lol, I was one of the people strongly disagreeing with you. He’s still young, and tall PGs take longer to develop, but holy crap are the early returns bad.

    I should’ve learned by now, but i would put money on Killian in a bet for who will have a better career, between him and Frank.

  67. @espn_macmahon
    Kristaps Porzingis won’t play vs. Nuggets tomorrow, but he’s nearing his season debut. Rick Carlisle: “In terms of a timetable, we’re not talking weeks. We’re talking some time in the next week, week and a half, if all things continue to go well.”

  68. Ntilakilla: Ah. Then his explanation makes sense. He must really have felt uncomfortable with the prospect of living in Colorado to potentially leave millions on the table.

    I should clarify a bit, sources say Denver was willing to match but don’t say they were willing to go higher. I suspect they were willing to go higher since they had his bird rights and were over the cap (although the luxury tax starts to factor in at some point too).

    There were also reports he left because Detroit promised him a bigger role in the offense, which probably translates to more money in the long term.

    More generally, I’d guess Denver is one of the whitest NBA cities and if an African-American NBA player feels out of place anywhere then Denver is a pretty good bet.

    If you want to feel less cynical, here’s Jerami Grant answering 5 minutes of questions during the bubble by trying to discuss Breonna Taylor during every answer. (It’s linked in the article which provides a lot more, but the youtube video was posted by someone else so I think it’s fair game to link here.)

  69. I’m a mild stutterer as well, and my youngest son is too, a bit worse than I am. No one else in my family stutters. Mine kind of comes and goes, typically happening when I’m excited or nervous. So, in my college years, that usually meant when approaching and asking girls out… yup.

    And in regards to dementia, my mother may have been an outlier case. While her physical health had been declining for some time, her drift into dementia was very sudden. One day she just didn’t know who anyone was anymore. My grandmother’s decline was more gradual.

    Biden doesn’t seem like he’s near there yet, but he certainly is a bit declined in his mind. I’m 58, and I can tell that about me.

  70. Ntilakilla: I think that’s fair. I have a feeling he beats that number though.

    Yeah, that number was too low. After giving another thought, i think 40.5 as a much better number.
    If he comes back Jan 15, he’ll have already missed 12 games, so with 60 games left will he play more than two thirds?

  71. I’ve met Joe Biden. I’ve spoken to him. He didn’t stutter. You can’t beat a primary source, so, clearly, Biden doesn’t have a stutter. He is just a senile, drooling quasi-vegetable. Storm the Capitol! Save America!

  72. And y’all think a medical expert has anything to teach strat, who learned everything that needs to be learned from the school of life?

    I’ll take the under on the Porzingis games, for sure. Even if he gets 100% healthy he’ll be managed carefully and load managed, so I don’t think he reaches 39 games unless Dallas is in desperation move and force him to play through it, which would be dumb as hell.

  73. cybersoze: I should’ve learned by now, but i would put money on Killian in a bet for who will have a better career, between him and Frank.

    I indicated before the draft that Killian would have been a perfectly good late-first/early second round pick…and said the same about Frank. So while I agree with you that Hayes had the edge pre-injury and probably still has one post-injury, it’s a pretty low bar. The larger question is: how much daylight is there between them in justifying a mid-lottery pick? Will either of them be even “notable” NBA players before age 27? The first 7 games worth of data for Hayes was not pretty, especially considering that some pretty smart people here and in professional NBA draft punditry had him rated as the #1 overall prospect. Even before the injury, I would bet that the Pistons would love to have had a mulligan on that one.

    But I’m guessing that there are some here who in spite of what Quickley and Hayes have shown would swap for Hayes straight up, certainly before the injury and maybe would still do so now.

  74. We should have picked Haliburton and I think it’s going to haunt us. A cost-controlled PG of his caliber is manna from heaven to this team. I don’t hate Payton — the Knicks’ PGs have been waaaaaaay worse in recent years — but he is a stopgap at his very best.

    Haliburton
    Quickley
    Barrett
    Randle
    Robinson

    That’s four players who can either play a true “point” (Hali and Randle) or can be score-first handlers (Barrett at the rim, Quickley from range) and then Robinson to capitalize on the ball movement. Toppin is still a solid long-term strategy, but man, we could be set up for years with a PG with the kind of range and vision that Haliburton has. Fuck.

    And yes, Barrett looks a lot better this year. I’m not ready to anoint him until he performs this well over a period of months, but he looks a hell of a lot better.

  75. I am mad we didn’t draft Halli either. But would we have chosen Quickley if we went guard with the our first pick?

  76. cybersoze: Yeah, that number was too low. After giving another thought, i think 40.5 as a much better number.
    If he comes back Jan 15, he’ll have already missed 12 games, so with 60 games left will he play more than two thirds?

    40 is tougher for him to beat. You add in the requisite soreness and occasional rest day…I dunno. I think he’s really primed to prove he can finish a semi-full season so I think the mind is willing. But he’s also made of glass…

  77. Ntilakilla:
    I am mad we didn’t draft Halli either. But would we have chosen Quickley if we went guard with the our first pick?

    I mean maybe not but they certainly could have. You should always draft for quality not fit, first of all, but even considering fit there’s really no issue. I think everyone is seeing clearly now that RJ is a 3 not a 2 (and he looked good playing the 4 the other night as well, he can probably handle that more and more as he continues to get stronger and the league continues to trend smaller) so the closest thing to a long-term piece this team has at guard is Frank or DSJ depending on your preferred flavor of nothingness. I think with Hali being arguably more of a 1.5 or 2 long-term anyway that IQ + Haliburton would look awfully exciting as a backcourt of the future.

  78. geo: hey GO NY, i’m sorry to hear that…that seems like some really tough stuff to go through…heartbreaking and frightening to be sure…

    not to get too personal, but, what steps can you, or have you taken in regards to aging and your own cognitive abilities?

    I do what I can to stay healthy. There is no real prevention or cure. When you go through this with your parents (my father lasted a decade, declining day by day) you ask these questions.

  79. Ntilakilla:
    I wonder what the over/under on KP’s games played this season should be.

    Am I hopelessly biased, or does Julius Randle have more value than Porzingis?

    At this point, the Porzingis trade dumped two heinous contracts, picked up two firsts, and one busted prospect. We turned the cap space into Randle and Morris, who we turned into Quickley.

    Even though Smith busted, it’s beginning to look like one of the best trades we’ve ever made.

  80. Jowles, totally agree on your Hali position. Makes me sad, and still working to turn the page.

    However, I don’t agree that Strat is the enemy of the people. Willful ignorance is the enemy of the people. Strat just serves his dark lord well.

  81. What are the odds that Bob Neptune is in DC right now visiting the Capitol Building?

    I have it at 2 to 1.

  82. Hubert: Am I hopelessly biased, or does Julius Randle have more value than Porzingis?

    At this point, the Porzingis trade dumped two heinous contracts, picked up two firsts, and one busted prospect. We turned the cap space into Randle and Morris, who we turned into Quickley.

    Even though Smith busted, it’s beginning to look like one of the best trades we’ve ever made.

    I’m with you…and apparently so was the Knicks FO. Randle on his contract >>> KP on a max contract. And its not even close. Forget that Randle has outperformed KP on the advanced metrics alone. The best ability in pro sports is availability and KP doesn’t have it.

  83. “The last sharp person we had was Bill Clinton..”

    Love it! So true….

    It’s too early to say anything definitive but yes, passing on Halli was a giant unforced error. Watching what a little decent guard play can do kind of makes you want more of it.

  84. Sorry, but I can’t let that pass. Whether you agree with his principles and positions or not, Obama was one sharp cookie. Brilliant orator, good thinker, funny as hell, strong debater, great interview. He spoke slowly, but for a politician that’s a pretty savvy move, too — makes you listen closely and lessens gaffe potential.

  85. Ntilakilla:
    What are the odds that Bob Neptune is in DC right now visiting the Capitol Building?

    I have it at 2 to 1.

    Bob probably hasn’t left his room since March. for all his flaws, he believed in covid.

  86. Remember Remember the 6th of January!
    Gunpowder, Treason and Plot
    I know of no reason
    Why the MAGA treason
    Should ever be forgot!

  87. Raven, I totally disagree with you and also, Julius Randle is going to grind Rudy Gobert into dust tonight.

    ;-)

  88. Raven:
    Sorry, but I can’t let that pass. Whether you agree with his principles and positions or not, Obama was one sharp cookie. Brilliant orator, good thinker, funny as hell, strong debater, great interview. He spoke slowly, but for a politician that’s a pretty savvy move, too — makes you listen closely and lessens gaffe potential.

    Thank you! I can’t believe no one commented on that but I totally believe that start thinks Obama is dumb.

  89. Even though Smith busted, it’s beginning to look like one of the best trades we’ve ever made.

    I need to gloat about being literally the first person here to say the trade was good.

    Don’t want to stir this pot but feels a bit silly that we had a conversation yesterday about the dangers of left-wing censorship on internet forums, huh?

  90. Randle has always been a better offensive player than KP, all the numbers and even the eye test backs that up, he just had a career worst year with us last season. Then it comes to how much you value KP’s defense in the mix, and his “potential” however you decide to measure it. I know if I want to win basketball games now, I’m probably choosing Randle in his contract over Porzingis at a max.

  91. I find Barack Obama ten times more impressive as both an orator and thinker than Bill Clinton, and I’m not someone who has any qualms about criticizing the former.

  92. Oh man, how did they swap out the dementia-riddled Biden with this guy giving a tight, impassioned spur-of-the-moment speech?

  93. I want to change my primary care physician to strat…he seems to be able to readily diagnose any medical issues…would save me a ton of time going back and forth…I can’t seem to find his name on the options in the Aetna directory…can someone point me to where he is listed?

  94. Brian Cronin:
    Oh man, how did they swap out the dementia-riddled Biden with this guy giving a tight, impassioned spur-of-the-moment speech?

    Trump uses Adderall as his go to.

  95. ***I want to change my primary care physician to strat…he seems to be able to readily diagnose any medical issues…would save me a ton of time going back and forth…I can’t seem to find his name on the options in the Aetna directory…can someone point me to where he is listed?***

    Try: Dr. Lockwood, Robert jr.

  96. Don’t want to stir this pot but feels a bit silly that we had a conversation yesterday about the dangers of left-wing censorship on internet forums, huh?

    One should never feel silly for discussing censorship issues in a public forum.

  97. thenoblefacehumper: I need to gloat about being literally the first person here to say the trade was good.

    Don’t want to stir this pot but feels a bit silly that we had a conversation yesterday about the dangers of left-wing censorship on internet forums, huh?

    Doesn’t seem silly in the least. There are issues on the left and — obviously — issues on the right. The issues on the right need to result in Trump’s impeachment and expulsion from further office holding as I wrote this morning, but none of that means censorship is suddenly ok.

    It is now absolutely imperative that Trump be impeached, convicted, and barred from federal office holding. Whatever “ideology” went into today must be eradicated from American political life.

  98. joe is on a mission from god…

    I would guess this is the final straw for a large part of the republican party – clinging to trump may not have been so helpful to them in georgia…

    can’t wait for twitter to finally kick this dude to the curb…that is muy importante…

    hopefully garland holds tight to grudges…

    by the end of the day whomever is in charge of capitol security should be looking for different employment…

  99. Re Owen’s comment about Gobert — I thought it was interesting that a link in the Ringer article (thanks Frank O) had Gobert at 12th in terms of block% (Mitch was first and I think Noel was 7th or so). It’s nice they’re leaders, but clearly blocks are only one part of being a great defensive center. I love me some Mitch swatting, but I think his more ‘judicious’ play is making him a better defensive beast (besides staying on the floor longer). I suppose I should look at the data to verify that statement, but I’m too busy doom-scrolling.

  100. Guys, what’s happening in your country? It’s sad to see people treating the White House as some warehouse they are about to loot.

  101. It is now absolutely imperative that Trump be impeached, convicted, and barred from federal office holding.

    sounds like censorship to me

  102. thenoblefacehumper: I need to gloat about being literally the first person here to say the trade was good.

    I don’t remember the order in which I chimed in, but I was pretty happy with it, too. I was in the “never max KP” camp.

    i never thought it would be such a decisive landslide, though. What could KP fetch now? am i nuts, or is he already a negative asset that would need to have picks attached to him to move?

  103. power is being exchanged…

    not just up at the top either…as rapidly as technology is changing our society, so are our social norms…

  104. Hubert: i never thought it would be such a decisive landslide, though. What could KP fetch now? am i nuts, or is he already a negative asset that would need to have picks attached to him to move?

      

    To use your offered-up terms, you’re “nuts,” but it’s certainly true that his latest injury has made the trade look a lot better.

    Randle does not have the asset value now KP did when he was traded, nor is it really that close. We didn’t get good value for KP. The secondary and tertiary impacts of the trade are helping make it look better to be sure.

  105. I don’t think KP is considered a negative asset (at least in the perception of most league FOs) just yet. I still think you could trade him for assets at this time. If he gets injured one more time though, he’ll be an albatross. He seems really highly valued around the league, for some reason unbeknownst to me.

  106. We didn’t get good value for KP.

    Recap of a hundred previous threads:

    (1) ACL tear
    (2) contract would have to be extended before he even played another game of basketball
    (3) demanded a trade
    (4) we have absolutely no idea what another offer would have looked like

  107. cybersoze:
    Guys, what’s happening in your country? It’s sad to see people treating the White House as some warehouse they are about to loot.

    We elected an unscrupulous and unqualified demagogue. It’s a flaw in the system. Ironically, its a vulnerability made worse by efforts to make our political parties more democratic and transparent – less controlled by party elites in smoke filled back rooms. Steps taken to do that had the unintended consequence of increasing the political leverage of celebrities, oligarchs, anyone with name recognition. It opened up a bigger space for them to get into politics without vetting where they can use their celebrity and communication skills to spread disinformation and stoke passions. There’s an uncomfortable tradeoff between making government more responsive to well-behaved constituencies and more vulnerable to people who know how to manipulate mob’s anger. Hopefully we’ll learn something from this sad chapter about how to strike that balance better in the future.

  108. I am actually excited to watch Gobert tonight.

    He really is such a fundamentally sound defender. Although it’s easier to be when you have his dimensions.

    Mitch being in more control on defense really is the most hopeful thing about this year.

    Also, I proudly consider myself a charter member of the don’t max KP club. Whether we got value or not for KP was irrelevant. We dodged a potential Yao situation.

    And we did clear cap space for Durant. I don’t know if that was ever realistic but that was part of the calculation and it reduced our leverage.

  109. Yeah, I will always believe that they had a deal with Durant when they traded KP. And then the Durant injury squelched things. So I was always pro the trade for that reason. If the Knicks didn’t have a deal with Durant, then I think it was a mediocre trade that has luckily worked out pretty well so far. There’s no way it was ever a bad trade.

  110. Unreason: We elected an unscrupulous and unqualified demagogue. It’s a flaw in the system. Ironically, its a vulnerability made worse by efforts to make our political parties more democratic and transparent – less controlled by party elites in smoke filled back rooms. Steps taken to do that had the unintended consequence of increasing the political leverage of celebrities, oligarchs, anyone with name recognition. It opened up a bigger space for them to get into politics without vetting where they can use their celebrity and communication skills to spread disinformation and stoke passions. There’s an uncomfortable tradeoff between making government more responsive to well-behaved constituencies and more vulnerable to people who know how to manipulate mob’s anger. Hopefully we’ll learn something from this sad chapter about how to strike that balance better in the future.

    Your diagnosis of the current situation where a billionaire oligarch who was elected without a majority vote due to a colonial era remnant of aristocratic electoralism in our 18th century constitution is that our political system is too democratic? Yeesh.

  111. Some thoughts about injuries.
    From Bleacher Report:

    “If the NBA isn’t going to penalize teams for underreporting or misreporting injuries, then why shouldn’t they? In a way, it should be an organization’s job to find an edge wherever possible, to set itself up for success by any means necessary.

    The offense comes in judging intent, which is a whole other can of worms entirely. It’s entirely possible that teams may intend to mislead opposing teams, and fans are subsequently misled by accident.

    It’s also entirely possible that teams are being honest in their assessments, and details are scarce simply because accounting for and dealing with injuries is far less cut-and-dry than most of us suspect. There’s also the not-so-small matter of privacy, of doctor-patient confidentiality and of injuries (perhaps) not being the public’s dang business.

    Not that I have anything against total transparency in these instances. But realistically, if the NBA were to implement a stricter injury-reporting policy, it’s difficult to imagine the powers that be having the ability to enforce the rules and keep proper track of every bruise, break, fracture and tear that comes across the wire.

    What’s to keep teams from reporting fake injuries, or suggesting that a player’s ankle injury was actually to a knee, as happened so often in the NFL?”

  112. So we have 6 guys out, as i didn’t read any updates stating Noel was back. And today Bullock was listed as questionable. If he doesn’t play, we’ll have only 7 players from the rotation, and then Iggy, Pinson and Harper.
    Over/Under for time played by RJ and Randle at 39.5?

  113. Adrian Wojnarowski @wojespn:
    After the rioting and attack on democracy in Washington today, there’s been no formal discussion between the NBA and NBPA on postponing any of the league’s 11 games tonight, sources tell ESPN. The Washington Wizards are set to play the 76ers in Philadelphia.

  114. Ntilakilla: Your diagnosis of the current situation where a billionaire oligarch who was elected without a majority vote due to a colonial era remnant of aristocratic electoralism in our 18th century constitution is that our political system is too democratic? Yeesh.

    Ironic result of the movement in the 60s and 70s and continuing today by each party to make the process of selecting candidates more open and transparent. Before that it was harder or impossible for to become a party’s candidate if you weren’t long standing members of the party and both vetted by them and beholden to them. Now parties can fairly easily be hijacked by people with little allegiance to them. Thus they are riper targets for demagogues.

    I’m not advocating for less democracy. I’m just noting that it probably needs to adjust to some of the unintended consequence of a well-intentioned effort to make the system more responsive. The framers gave a lot of thought to making US democracy less vulnerable to forces that brought down previous attempts at democracy – principally the rise of tyrants skilled at manipulating mobs. Checks and balances and slow deliberative processes were all designed to prevent that. Less vetting of candidates and greater ability to reach people through decentralized unmoderated communication channels like social media might require new strategies to mitigate the risk of a demagogue taking over. Make sense?

  115. I was mostly saddened by the KP trade because I wanted a homegrown star to root for. I sort of fell out of love with him over time due to his lack of development and petulance, but still think his best days are ahead of him and that we could have gotten more for him if we were more patient. I also think Dallas could easily turn him around for at least what they paid for him. Ultimately, he will probably have a very good career…his injuries aren’t career threatening and he was already a much better player for Dallas than he was for us. I don’t think Cuban will ever regret the trade.

    Ironically, this morning I stumbled on an autographed KP jersey I bought for my son at a my school’s fundraising auction…I had to use my principal clout to box out some eager parents from outbidding me! Wound up paying like $350 for it…yet another reason I wasn’t happy about it.

  116. The framers gave a lot of thought to making US democracy less vulnerable to forces that brought down previous attempts at democracy – principally the rise of tyrants skilled at manipulating mobs. Checks and balances and slow deliberative processes were all designed to prevent that. Less vetting of candidates and greater ability to reach people through decentralized unmoderated communication channels like social media might require new strategies to mitigate the risk of a demagogue taking over. Make sense?

    No, it doesn’t make sense to me considering that Trump wouldn’t have even been elected to begin if our presidential elections was actually democratic and were determined on a majority vote basis instead of via an elector college system. You’re making what happened tonight seem like France circa 1789 when what really happened was more analogous to the kinds of a small scale plots that Latin America countries call autogolpes, where nationally elected leaders assume extraordinary powers over legislatures through putsch.

  117. cybersoze:

    Adrian Wojnarowski @wojespn:
    After the rioting and attack on democracy in Washington today, there’s been no formal discussion between the NBA and NBPA on postponing any of the league’s 11 games tonight, sources tell ESPN. The Washington Wizards are set to play the 76ers in Philadelphia.

    I find this a bit surprising, don’t you?
    We have recent examples of quick reactions from the players and the NBA,
    I’m tuned on CNN for hours, this is a solemny serious situation, do they prefer to go on playing like nothing happened?

    Oh, what the fuck, I’m not an american citizen and I had placed my bets already, why do I bother?

  118. “If the NBA isn’t going to penalize teams for underreporting or misreporting injuries, then why shouldn’t they? In a way, it should be an organization’s job to find an edge wherever possible, to set itself up for success by any means necessary.

    I’m coming from another direction here, but accurate injury reports are critical to gambling. If the NBA is going to embrace sports gambling in any way, any sign that information is being withheld or not reported honestly (or even worse sold to select gamblers) would destroy the integrity of the sport.

    To show show important it is, when I was betting basketball daily I had a Twitter ID where I only followed every beat writer for every NBA team because I would occasionally get an injury report BEFORE it hit the Vegas lines. I once knew Kevin Love was going to be out for Minny before the bookies did and got my bet down a minute before the line moved 6 points. Cashed that bet. hahaha

    On the flip side I’ve seen situations where the line was obviously way wrong all day and there were no reports of injuries anywhere. Then there was a game time decision injury announced that made that line make perfect sense. So obviously the bookies KNEW that player was going to be out before it was announced publicly. Almost no chance there wasn’t some corruption involved there. IMO, somebody leaked that info to the books or a few gamblers.

    They have to report injuries in a timely and accurate way or imo they will threaten the integrity of the sport.

  119. Deeefense: I’m coming from another direction here, but accurate injury reports are critical to gambling.If the NBA is going to embrace sports gambling in any way, any sign that information is being withheld or not reported honestly(or even worse sold to select gamblers) would destroy the integrity of the sport.

    To show show important it is, when I was betting basketball daily I had a Twitter ID where I only followed every beat writer for every NBA team because I would occasionally get an injury report BEFORE it hit the Vegas lines. I once knew Kevin Love was going to be out for Minny before the bookies did and got my bet down a minute before the line moved 6 points. Cashed that bet. hahaha

    On the flip side I’ve seen situations where the line was obviously way wrong all day and there were no reports of injuries anywhere. Then there was a game time decision injury announced that made that line make perfect sense. So obviously the bookies KNEW that player was going to be out before it was announced publicly. Almost no chance there wasn’t some corruption involved there. IMO, somebody leaked that info to the books or a few gamblers.

    They have to report injuries in a timely and accurate way or imo they will threaten the integrity of the sport.

    I’m with you 100% on this

  120. I think we probably mostly agree. I agree this is an example of an elected leader trying to take over by subverting checks on power. I wouldn’t draw any parallels with the French revolution. Not sure why you see that. I also agree that the electoral college and the ability of popular vote victors to lose our elections is a problem that needs to be fixed. I think the risk of demogues to hijack parties will persist even if that is fixed because of the changes to parties and communications. We might not agree on that.

  121. What happened today in DC today will be a footnote that no one will care about in a few months.

    Trump may legitimately believe that extreme bias by the mainstream media/social media tech companies and mail in voting fraud contributed to his defeat, but he’s playing the long game. He couldn’t give a shit about the presidency. He wants to keep a LOT of private power so he won’t be prosecuted for whatever illegal things he did as a businessman (and he probably did plenty dealing with the mafia in NY and NJ, and corrupt govts overseas) and so that he can make a fortune making speaking appearances, writing books, doing TV shows, selling merchandise etc..

    This was not a coup attempt or anything even remotely like it. The media is fvcking insane. It wasn’t a large number of people and no one in the military is backing him. It’s a few idiots that think they were cheated because the former president probably really think that the “powers that be” (including never Trump republicans) all aligned to beat him by any means necessary and that included cheating.

  122. #They have to report injuries in a timely and accurate way or imo they will threaten the integrity of the sport.#

    I stop gambling long time ago and truly don’t feel the threat of the integrity of the sport.
    Just the threat of the integrity of gambling.
    Especially when teams are obviously tanking, resting players freely and play as hard as they like according to many factors.
    How many times have we seen the worst team of the league beating the hottest or the best one?

  123. The Honorable Cock Jowles: QED, folks. Strat has weighed in: this is all the media’s lies.

    Do you know what a coup looks like?

    A coup is hundreds of thousands of people gathering and threatening the power and/or the military getting involved in an overthrow of current power or on the side that’s losing power. This was not a lot of people and there isn’t a military person in the country that is supporting a coup. The police and security made a very HUGE mistake by allowing some crazy members of the crowd to get past them and get into that building. But that’s not a coup. The media is made up politically motivated idiots.

    The people had every right to protest if they think they were cheated, but no right to be violent or to go into those buildings. They should have been stopped by law enforcement, preferably without force or firing a shot. Whether it’s looting private business or violence in DC both are wrong and police are supposed to stop it.

  124. I wouldn’t draw any parallels with the French revolution.

    The insinuation of a mob storming Capitol Hill is an analogy to French revolutionaries storming the Bastille. This isn’t a mob action. A mob action is a chaotic popular mass movement. This a coordinated plot among a fringe element meant to simulate a putsch by Trump and his stoolies on the day of the Democratic win in Georgia.

    I think the risk of demogues to hijack parties will persist even if that is fixed because of the changes to parties and communications. We might not agree on that.

    I just find it odd to ascribe this moment in Trumpism to the more democratic structure of Republican party politics and mass communications. He was aided and abetted by elites within his party and in the mainstream media from the beginning. Forget Facebook and Twitter. The guy received hundreds of millions of dollars of free coverage from the moment he first announced his candidacy in 2015.

    This was not a coup attempt or anything even remotely like it. The media is fvcking insane. It wasn’t a large number of people and no one in the military is backing him. It’s a few idiots that think they were cheated because the former president thinks he was cheated.

    I don’t think anyone wanted to seriously take over Congress. But this was definitely a coordinated effort. Trump held back the DC National Guard from responding to the terrorists breaching the Capitol Building and then had these people leave before they were mobilized.

  125. An attempted coup that’s poorly planned and ultimately unsuccessful is still an attempted coup.

  126. Deeefense:
    What happened today in DC today will be a footnote that no one will care about in a few months.

    Trump may legitimately believe that extreme bias by the mainstream media/social media tech companies and mail in voting fraud contributed to his defeat, but he’s playing the long game. He couldn’t give a shit about the presidency.He wants to keep a LOT of private power so he won’t be prosecuted for whatever illegal things he did as a businessman (and he probably did plenty dealing with the mafia in NY and NJ, and corrupt govts overseas) and so that he can make a fortune making speaking appearances, writing books, doing TV shows, selling merchandise etc..

    This was nota coup attempt or anything even remotely like it. The media is fvcking insane.It wasn’t a large number of people and no one in the military is backing him.It’s a few idiots that think they were cheated because the former president probably really think that the “powers that be” (including never Trump republicans) all aligned to beat him by any means necessary and that included cheating.

    I guess we can play the semantic game of whether it was a “coup,” but it absolutely was sedition. They invaded the capitol for the purpose of stopping the electoral vote count. Hitler probably had fewer people conspiring at the Munich beer hall putsch and he was far further away from any seat of political power.

  127. Deeefense: Do you know what a coup looks like?

    A coup is hundreds of thousands of people gathering and threatening the power and/or the military getting involved in an overthrow of current power or on the side that’s losing power.This was not a lot of people and there isn’t a military person in the country that is supporting a coup.Someone in the police department made a very HUGE mistake by allowing some crazy members of the crowd to past them and get into that building. But that’s not a coup. That’s the media being idiots again.

    The people had every right to protest if they think they were cheated, but no right to be violent or to go into those buildings. They should have been stopped by law enforcement, preferably without force or firing a shot. Whether it’s looting private business or violence in DC both are wrong and police are supposed to stop it.

    This is such a load of bullshit. “Hundreds of thousands” of people is not a requirement for something to be a coup and it never has. The Beer Hall Putsch in 1923 Germany was made up of nazi leadership and 600 members of the party. No military, no hundreds of thousands of people.

  128. Knew Your Nicks:
    #They have to report injuries in a timely and accurate way or imo they will threaten the integrity of the sport.#

    I stop gambling long time ago and truly don’t feel the threat of the integrity of the sport.
    Just the threat of the integrity of gambling.
    Especially when teams are obviously tanking, resting players freely and play as hard as they like according to many factors.
    How many times have we seen the worst team of the league beating the hottest or the best one?

    It happens rarely that the worst (by record) team plays the best/hottest (by record) teams,
    but upsets are not so unusual in the league.

    Last time I checked, the biggest Win/Lose upset against the spread in the last 25 years happened in august of last year (Nets beat Bucks while underdog by 18,5), but for instance when we beat the Bucks by 20 we were underdog by 12,5 and that’s a huge turnaround. We were dogs by 6,5/7 (a robust spread) when we beat Atlanta the other day, I think we had the same spread when we beat Indiana.
    DET beat BOS recently and that was a big surprise, a (for now) mediocre POR upset the (hot and strongly favored) Lakers in LA, and I can go on. This is such a strange season for now.

    I haven’t stop gambling :-)

    P.S. I agree, faulty injury reports put at risk the integrity of gambling not that of the game, while many of the other factors that you correctly listed defraud the game (and the gambling).

  129. E, two-way G-Leaguer: I guess we can play the semantic game of whether it was a “coup,” but it absolutely was sedition.They invaded the capitol for the purpose of stopping the electoral vote count.

    It was a small number of crazies (both sides apparently have millions of those though) that should have been stopped and now should be arrested for what they did, but it was no major movement or coup attempt by Trump, large numbers of Trump supporters, military or anyone else. They should allow peaceful protests but arrest anyone that gets violent or that violates private property every single time without fail. Arrest all of them. The end. By next week Quickley will be a bigger story than this.

  130. Deeefense: It was a small number of crazies (both sides apparently have millions of those though) that should have been stopped and now should be arrested for what they did, but it was no major movement or coup attempt by Trump, large numbers of Trump supporters, military or anyone else.They should allow peaceful protests but arrest anyone that gets violent or that violates private property every single time without fail.Arrest all of them. The end.

    We’ll get a better handle on the numbers as time goes along, but it certainly looked to be at least several hundred people. It was enough people to literally send our government fleeing. They invaded the Senate chamber to try to stop the certification of the election of a president. That was their obvious purpose. That’s sedition, by any serious definition. It was basically the Beer Hall Putsch, but ported to the Reichstag to prevent the seating of federal officials.

  131. vincoug: This is such a load of bullshit.“Hundreds of thousands” of people is not a requirement for something to be a coup and it never has.The Beer Hall Putsch in 1923 Germany was made up of nazi leadership and 600 members of the party.No military, no hundreds of thousands of people.

    I didn’t see any leaders of the republican party storming the Capital with a crowd of leading republicans in support of a coup. The republican leaders were probably too busy hiding under their desks and in closets. I saw a bunch of crazies than no one anywhere in the country wanted to get violent storm the capital. Arrest the idiots and be done with it.

  132. Deeefense: I didn’t see any leaders of the republican party storming the Capital with a crowd of leading republicans in support of a coup. The republican leaders were probably too busy hiding under their desks and in closets.I saw a bunch of crazies than no one anywhere in the country wanted to get violent storm the capital.Arrest the idiots and be done with it.

    You didn’t see that, but you did see many Republicans making completely bogus and contra-legal “objections” to the electoral votes of the states, when they had no authority to do that.

    Donald Trump incited a mob today to try to illegitimately retain power after having constitutionally lost it. That mob did his bidding, going so far as to literally storm the Capitol and stop the certification. People like Ted Cruz indirectly supported the mob with his weeks-long flinging of bullshit leading all the way up to today when he either flung more or was stopped from flinging more because of the mob action. This is what happened today, there’s no sugar-coating it. It’s never really happened before in the US.

  133. most of the people out there today just looked like they needed an excuse to wear army fatigues in public and/or break some shit…

  134. Merriam Webster:

    Definition of coup d’état
    : a sudden decisive exercise of force in politics
    especially : the violent overthrow or alteration of an existing government by a small group
    Example: a military coup d’état of the dictator

    It’s funny I don’t see a reference in this definition to a number or size of a group other than small. Nor do I see a reference to military aid, and if there were it would make the common saying, and literally the example the dictionary used, redundant.

  135. Austin Rivers on IQ…he said Quickley is playing with “more confidence than any rookie I’ve seen that I’ve played with coming in.”

  136. I didn’t see any leaders of the republican party storming the Capital with a crowd of leading republicans in support of a coup.

    You don’t have to storm the Capitol to support a coup when you’re already supporting a coup inside of it.

  137. Deeefense: I didn’t see any leaders of the republican party storming the Capital with a crowd of leading republicans in support of a coup. The republican leaders were probably too busy hiding under their desks and in closets.I saw a bunch of crazies than no one anywhere in the country wanted to get violent storm the capital.Arrest the idiots and be done with it.

    “No one anywhere.” Does that include trump calling on his cultists to the capital specifically today over the last several days? Also, I thought a coup was only a coup if it involved hundreds of thousands of people or the military? Now it has to involve leaders of the party? I’m very confused. It’s almost like you’re making up arbitrary rules and definitions in order dismiss organized violence by people who you agree with politically.

  138. You guy really have to stop watching any news on either side,

    You tell me it’s the institution
    Well, you know
    You better free your mind instead

  139. Deeefense: Trump may legitimately believe that extreme bias by the mainstream media/social media tech companies and mail in voting fraud contributed to his defeat, but he’s playing the long game. He couldn’t give a shit about the presidency. He wants to keep a LOT of private power

    Oh, I forgot to comment on this. Is this the reason trump had a whining, threatening hour-long phonecall with the Secretary of State of Georgia? To maintain personal power and nothing to do with the presidency?

  140. Strat thinks Trump is plotting out some 12 dimensional Machiavellian strategy when in reality he’s a dumb, confused old man reacting to what he sees on TV

  141. RJ needs to learn how to set up screens- that offensive foul on Randle wouldn’t have happened if just let Randle get set. Happens a lot.

  142. Who could have guessed Strat would have a shitty, both-sides take on today’s events, or that it would include a heap of arbitrary definitions he makes up on the spot? Truly surprised here.

  143. I see Thibs is going with a 7-man playoff rotation for game 8 of the season

  144. I see Thibs is going with a 7-man playoff rotation for game 8 of the season

    Yeah, that’s a legit concern. But at the same time, it’s how Thibs is taking advantage of the sloppiness of the rest of the NBA, so it’s still resulting in a better than expected record for the Knicks, so it’s tough to expect Thibs to not do it.

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