Knicks Morning News (2019.07.02)

  • [Sports Illustrated] Maybe 2021 Will Be the Summer Knicks Fans Have Dreamed of, but Probably Not
    (Monday, July 01, 2019 1:54:27 PM)

    The Knicks missed out on Kevin Durant, Kyrie Irving and Kemba Walker in 2019 free agency, but maybe 2021 could be their year to become a title contender.

  • [Sports Illustrated] NBA Free Agency Report Card: Grading Nets, Knicks, 76ers and More from Crazy Day 1
    (Monday, July 01, 2019 8:20:47 AM)

    There’s an avalanche of deals to process from Day 1 of NBA free agency. The Crossover grades the wild start to the summer and weighs in on the Knicks, Nets, Sixers and more.

  • [RotoWire]
    Elfrid Payton: Agrees to deal with Knicks

    (Monday, July 01, 2019 10:47:00 AM)

    Elfrid Payton: Payton and the Knicks have agreed to a two-year, $16 million contract, Shams Charania of The Athletic reports.

    Visit RotoWire.com for more analysis on this update.

  • [NYPost] The piece of hope Knicks’ starless roster overhaul still provides
    (Monday, July 01, 2019 9:55:56 PM)

    The Knicks didn’t sign every role player on the planet. It only seems that way, creating a roster that may be the league’s deepest but without one proven standout. In a historic signing flurry following Kevin Durant and Kyrie Irving marching to Brooklyn, the Knicks attempted to save face with quantity over quality. They added…

  • [NYPost] Kevin Durant’s close friend: Porzingis trade doomed Knicks
    (Monday, July 01, 2019 8:51:16 PM)

    ESPN’s Jay Williams, a Kevin Durant confidant, believes the Knicks trading Kristaps Porzingis could have hurt the team’s chances of landing the two-time NBA Finals MVP. Back in Porzingis’ rookie year, when Durant visited the Garden, he gave the 7-foot-3 Latvian a nickname that stuck. “Who gave Porzingis the nickname, the Unicorn?” Williams said Monday…

  • [NYPost] Nets now risk becoming the next New York disappointment
    (Monday, July 01, 2019 7:50:39 PM)

    There has been so much celebration in and around Brooklyn since late Sunday afternoon you would have thought the Dodgers had announced they would be coming back home and a new-age Ebbetts Field was under construction. Kyrie Irving first, then Kevin Durant — KD is how we all know him, of course — Nothing But…

  • [NYPost] Inside the Knicks’ epic Durant-Irving choke: ‘Moment of clarity’
    (Monday, July 01, 2019 5:53:10 PM)

    The Knicks never even got a meeting. Knicks charismatic coach David Fizdale never got a chance to give his recruiting spiel. Maybe the Achilles tendon rupture changed everything in Kevin Durant’s head for good. Durant wasn’t coming alone — and Kyrie Irving wasn’t coming. Despite reports last week that Durant’s decision would not be based…

  • [NYPost] Outlining the Knicks’ do-or-die mission
    (Monday, July 01, 2019 4:13:06 PM)

    And as for the other team in town … OK, OK, we kid. If it is indisputable the Nets’ star-splashed Sunday made significant strides in their perpetual effort to gain equal footing with the Knicks, it is equally unarguable that the Knicks still remain the prime holders of the deed to the city’s basketball soul….

  • [NYPost] NBA free agency winners and losers: Warriors’ new reality changes everything
    (Monday, July 01, 2019 3:17:23 PM)

    As usual, the potential drama of NBA free agency was discussed and dissected for months. For once, the upcoming season could be even more suspenseful. Following the myriad league-altering moves made during Sunday night’s wild opening to free agency, next season begins with the NBA championship appearing up for grabs for the first time since…

  • [NYPost] Enes Kanter: Trail Blazers gave me 6 minutes to decide future
    (Monday, July 01, 2019 1:55:52 PM)

    Turns out, Enes Kanter had a pretty solid reason to leave Portland. The former Knicks center reportedly inked a two-year, $10 million deal with the Celtics on Monday afternoon despite playing well in Portland and seemingly liking it there. “I was considering signing with (the) blazers, but they gave me only 6 (minutes) to make…

  • [NYPost] Knicks have pushed Stephen A. Smith over the edge
    (Monday, July 01, 2019 10:29:21 AM)

    The Knicks have officially broken Stephen A. Smith. Smith, a lifelong outspoken Knicks fan, reached the brink of his own sanity after the Knicks whiffed on Kevin Durant and Kyrie Irving as free agency opened on Sunday, with the stars instead opting to pair up with the Nets. “Somehow, someway I’m just trying to hold…

  • [NYPost] Knicks sign Elfrid Payton in point-guard shakeup
    (Monday, July 01, 2019 10:11:25 AM)

    The Knicks may have found a new starting point guard. In the Knicks’ sixth signing of free agency, general manager Scott Perry landed a player he drafted in Orlando with the 10th pick in 2014: Elfrid Payton. Payton will receive a two-year, $16 million deal with the second year being a team option, according to…

  • [NYPost] Breaking down Knicks’ plan to salvage James Dolan’s day of hell
    (Monday, July 01, 2019 7:46:23 AM)

    Five observations on the Knicks’ calamitous opening of free agency, when their $72 million of cap space set for two max players did not lead to a superstar coming to the Garden. 1. Let’s hit this right away. It’s disingenuous and an oversimplification to spin that the Knicks weren’t interested in post-Achilles Kevin Durant for…

  • [NYPost] Knicks sign Wayne Ellington to latest short-term deal
    (Monday, July 01, 2019 7:00:58 AM)

    The Knicks continued their Plan B on Monday of throwing money at backup players on short-term contracts to use cap space that is not going to either Kyrie Irving, Kevin Durant or Kawhi Leonard. The team added journeyman shooting guard Wayne Ellington with a two-year, $16 million deal. The Knicks have about $9 million left…

  • [ESPN] Ellington to join Knicks as team’s 6th FA pickup
    (Monday, July 01, 2019 11:19:51 AM)

    The Knicks have agreed to a two-year, $16 million deal with free-agent guard Wayne Ellington.

  • [NYTimes] Ellington to join Knicks as team’s 6th FA pickup
    (Monday, July 01, 2019 11:19:51 AM)

    The Knicks have agreed to a two-year, $16 million deal with free-agent guard Wayne Ellington.

  • [SNY Knicks] A closer look at issues surrounding the Knicks, Nets and Kevin Durant
    (Tuesday, July 02, 2019 1:30:28 AM)

    There are plenty of things to sort out as the dust settles from one of the most eventful NBA free agencies in recent memory.

  • [SNY Knicks] Where the Knicks stand in free agency so far
    (Monday, July 01, 2019 10:32:27 PM)

    The anger over the Knicks missing on Kevin Durant is warranted given the steps the club took to create max cap space. But they seemed to do well in their pivot to Plan B.

  • [SNY Knicks] Charles Oakley rips ‘toxic’ culture after Knicks whiff on star free agents
    (Monday, July 01, 2019 7:46:39 PM)

    Charles Oakley pointed to his incident with Knicks owner James Dolan as one factor why players are avoiding the Knicks.

  • [SNY Knicks] Kevin Durant, Kyrie Irving reportedly knew ‘months ago’ they wouldn’t join Knicks
    (Monday, July 01, 2019 4:24:44 PM)

    While the Knicks had hoped they would land Kevin Durant and Kyrie Irving in free agency, the two superstar free agents reportedly knew ‘months ago’ they would not join the Knicks.

  • [SNY Knicks] Knicks giving themselves flexibility with this crucial element of free agent deals
    (Monday, July 01, 2019 2:49:58 PM)

    If there is one positive out of the Knicks missing out on Kyrie Irving and Kevin Durant, it is their smart spending on the second-tier options they have brought in for next season.

  • [SNY Knicks] Knicks add free agent PG Elfrid Payton on two-year deal
    (Monday, July 01, 2019 2:01:44 PM)

    The Knicks have made their sixth free agent signing of the summer as they brought in PG Elfrid Payton on a two-year, $16 million deal, agent Ty Sullivan of CAA sports told SNY’s Ian Begley.

  • [SNY Knicks] Knicks smart to avoid disastrous panic deals after striking out on top free agents
    (Monday, July 01, 2019 1:00:13 PM)

    After the Knicks cleared enough cap space to sign two max free agents and after months of rumors that had Kevin Durant all but guaranteed to land at The Garden, he went to Brooklyn instead. And Kyrie Irving went with him.

  • [SNY Knicks] Knicks agree to two-year deal with veteran free agent Wayne Ellington
    (Monday, July 01, 2019 10:41:19 AM)

    After an active Sunday night, the Knicks continue their free agent signings with veteran SG Wayne Ellington joining the team on a two-year deal.

  • [SNY Knicks] Knicks’ signing of free agent Reggie Bullock means you can officially cross Kawhi Leonard off their list
    (Monday, July 01, 2019 8:11:22 AM)

    Bullock joins Julius Randle, Taj Gibson and Bobby Portis. None of the deals were guaranteed for more than two years, so the club accomplished its goal of maintaining flexibility if big stars decide to go elsewhere.

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    Mike Kurylo is the founder and editor of KnickerBlogger.net. His book on the 2012 Knicks, "We’ll Always Have Linsanity," is on sale now. Follow him on twitter (@KnickerBlogger).

    193 thoughts to “Knicks Morning News (2019.07.02)”

    1. JK47 thanks for that snippet of behind the music history, that was a fun break from doom and gloom!

    2. Like Everyone else, I am disappointed the Knicks will not be a contender next year, but I am optimistic the F.O. behaved in a progressive dynamic way to maintain future flexibility while significantly upgrading the roster from scrap heap level players to NBA level players. Will anyone miss:

      Henry Ellenson
      Emmanuel Mudiay
      Noah Vonleh
      Luke Kornet
      Mario Hezonja
      Billy Garrett
      Isaiah Hicks
      Kadeem Allen
      John Jenkins
      DeAndre Jordan
      Lance Thomas

      The FO did NOT repeat the mistake of 2010 Stoudamire consolation prize, and every player they signed has no long term effect. Build through the draft, develop the young core, and complement it with NBA level players.

      Consider how bad last year’s roster – the Knicks are only bringing six players back in Knox, Frank, Mitch, DSJ, Trier and Dot (all homegrown). The marginal free agents they signed are clear upgrades over the dreck that was the rest of the roster. What do KD and Kyrie do for that core? Still not ready to compete at the highest levels. Knicks dodged a bullet IMHO.

      I have to exercise excruciating patience, but am optimistic the team is on path forward. I have to pray they don’t get seduced by the quick fix, and hope some of the draft choices emerge as superstars.

    3. Will anyone miss:

      Henry Ellenson
      Emmanuel Mudiay
      Noah Vonleh
      Luke Kornet
      Mario Hezonja
      Billy Garrett
      Isaiah Hicks
      Kadeem Allen
      John Jenkins
      DeAndre Jordan
      Lance Thomas

      Damn right I’ll miss Vonleh and Kornet. We could have signed both of them for about 1/3 the price of Portis. And both of them are better players than the one-trick pony Portis. Ujiri built the Raptors in part by value contracts to guys like Wright and VanVleet. Perry hasn’t made a single value signing yet. The teams options are great but it would have been better to have spent the Portis and Ellington money in other ways (value contracts, rent cap, hold cap to deadline). And Taj contract is hard to justify when we could have paid less for Noel. Randle, Payton, and Reggie, however, were solid signings. Bottom Line: Perry’s performance was a mixed bag.

    4. @2,

      While you are not entirely incorrect, you totally ignore a pretty major part of the complaint here. No, most of us will not miss those players (some may miss Kornet and Vonleh, especially compared to who got picked up). And yes, the basic idea of getting some grizzled vets on short term contracts to play alongside the youth is at least a strategy. But the choices they made are lunatic, given the kids we have and the holes we have. Randle and Gibson could make some slight modicum of sense. Even (much less so) Portis and Gibson. Even less than that Randle and Portis. But Randle, Portis, AND Gibson? Nonsensical. Ellington, maybe. Bullock, maybe. Ellington AND Bullock? Ludicrous. And meanwhile, as people have pointed out, who runs the offense and gets the ball to these guys? DSJ? I don’t hate him, but giving him the keys to the car at this point is a recipe for chaos, and another year’s worth of eat-what-you-kill molar grinding. My kid could have done a better job with building this roster. His cat could have.

    5. Its interesting comparing the Knicks and the Lakers. They have stars but lack role players and young guys. We are stuffed with role players and young guys but have no stars.

    6. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them! says:

      I have no major problem with Randle, Portis, and Peyton. While none of them are the type of player I would have brought in because they don’t defend, at least they are young, have some upside, and the contracts are short enough to not cause any problems. I’ still worried about Randle’s fit with Robinson. That’s the one that can bite in the butt a little. If he’s not a good fit, are they going to bench their most expensive player and ruin his trade value like they’ve done with other players?

      I don’t see the point behind Gibson, Bullock, and Ellington. I’m open to adding veterans to help set an example and teach young players, but we probably could have found a cheaper way to do it. It also makes less sense to pay a lot when you are clearly building a young team than when you are trying to build a more veteran team while adding young players via draft for the long term. For all the whining about Lee and Noah, they’d be expiring contracts this year.

      We should have tried to rent some space and add some picks for awhile after we added the young players and come back to veterans later on the cheap.

      Also, I definitely would have brought back Vonleh instead of one of these guys. The only thing I can think of is that he didn’t want a 2 year deal with a team option. We’ll see where he winds up and for how much.

    7. @6 – Exactly right. I get that Perry has this optimism that busted draft picks may be revived i.e. Oladipo or D’Angelo. I disagree but I get it. With the vet signings, I’m scratching my head… I wonder if Perry wants to be the 2018-2019 Nets with this roster; add some shooting and try to squeeze out 42 wins without realizing: (A) that won’t happen and (B) that the Nets obtained Jarrett Allen and D’Angelo Russell by renting cap space for picks.

    8. Looking at our summer league roster and aside from the obvious suspects (RJ, Knox, and I guess Trier) there’s not all that much interesting going on. Maybe this kid Wooten from Oregon? He seems to have been a terrific defensive forward in college but he sucks on offense I guess. I’m also interested in seeing the D-II kid against higher level competition.

    9. I wonder if Perry wants to be the 2018-2019 Nets with this roster; add some shooting and try to squeeze out 42 wins without realizing: (A) that won’t happen and (B) that the Nets obtained Jarrett Allen and D’Angelo Russell by renting cap space for picks.

      The Knicks have six picks. They don’t have to take what the market sells to fill out their team. They have the picks to get value in the draft. More? Sure? For whom? Would I rather have Iguodala and a pick? IDK.

      But yes, you’re right. This team needs to win half it’s games now, ALA Nets / Clippers. That’s the way to justify this. Kyrie wanted to go to a good team. There’s no way this infusion of talent doesn’t make us better than last year. If we sniff .500, maybe even have a spirited if short playoff run FA’s will come. If we win 33 we could get the first pick in the draft.

    10. The FO job is to put a winning product in the floor and get people interested in the team. They have done a fine job if that so far this offseason.

      I’m excited to see this team. The fact that they only signed short deals should have us elated instead of this condemnation of all things knicks. Stop!

      We are building for the first time in as long as I can remember and that’s a good thing. I see a lot of moveable contracts going forward. What’s the problem!?!

      They’ve signed short term deals and kept flexibility for moves in season and pre deadline. Literally I see no bad signings, not one of these guys in our roster couldn’t be moved in a trade, they’ve created Building blocks. Smart.

    11. I hope RJ and Mitch see the court for a combined minute and a half in summer league. I’ll never forget Gallo wrecking his back trying to box out Robert “Tractor” Traylor.

      BTW, re: seniority. I remember arguing in favor of David Lee becoming the starting PF here….So, yeah, Jerome James was on the team, sorta.

      I deserve happiness

    12. Wondering what the future is for Kadeem Allen. We still have him on a two-way, but if Frank isn’t traded, and/or if there isn’t a rash of injuries, hard to see him getting any kind of run with the roster as presently constructed.

    13. Please correct me if my take is wrong.

      The FO just punted the next 2 years, aiming to a 8-12 pick in that time frame. Yeah, I know the lottery odds are now way flatter than last year.

      And they hope Barrett and Robinson become all star type players.

      Not happy with the roster building. I saw already few comments I share.

    14. I know this sounds ridiculous, but is it possible that the three smartest front offices so far this off-season are David Griffin, Dennis Lindsey/Justin Zanik and Steve Mills/Scott Perry?

      What did the great Danny Ainge accomplish? He replaced Horford, Irving, Baynes and Rozier with Kemba, Kanter, and two draft picks.

      What did the great Daryl Morey accomplish? Nothing. The Rockets are totally fucked.

      What did the Sean Marks accomplish? He capped out his team with an injury-prone malcontent, a seriously injured 32yo immortal on the decline, and the corpse of a former DPOY. He got a pick back from GSW but lost his best young piece in the process. In three years, they will be the Rockets East, in cap hell with untradeable contracts and not enough to make it to the Finals.

      Go through team after team and nearly every one is either capped out or close to it with bad contracts on the books or has players heading into RFA that need to be signed to expensive contracts.

      The worst thing you can say about what the Knicks did is that it is BORING. They decided not to use their cap space to acquire draft assets, which is somewhat dumb, but they also did not sign a single long-term FA to an objectively terrible deal.

      The strategy is to win a few more games this year than last year, to try to establish the team as a place that is a couple of pieces away, and to continue to build through the draft. They are banking on being well-positioned for trades as they become available until they can again try to land the big fish in free agency in summer 2021. They paid more than players were worth to make all of of the deals short term. It’s not perfect, but it’s perfectly fine compared with the dumb decisions that nearly every team made so far this off-season.

    15. How does the Bobby Portis contract make any sense for the Knicks? He’s a crummy, replacement-level player who’s #’s declined last season in a contract year. Does anyone think there’s any chance he becomes a guy who can give $15.5 million of value in year 1 or 2?

      There were better lotto tickets out there that could have been had for much cheaper. Is Portis repped by CAA? Can’t figure this one out (other than our front office making a dumb, panicky move).

    16. It really doesn’t make sense. They are paying him so much more than he is worth. Kevon Looney got 15 million for 3 years. Enes Kanter is making 10 million over 2. Ed Davis is a much better player and got the same. I think R. Lopez did also.

      I don’t get it. It’s just bizarre. Bobby Portis isn’t good and I don’t see us getting anything for him at any point at that number. Looking forward to being wrong.

    17. For those people who are happy Perry got 1 + 1 with team options but also mad that he overpaid these dudes some, how do you think he got those short contracts with the team options? Free agency is a negotiation and other teams are vying for the same players. It’s not take it or leave it.

    18. Who was vying to pay Bobby Portis 15 million for one year? Plenty of better players got less for two guaranteed.

    19. Once it was clear we were missing out on the top FAs, we needed to pivot to a clear plan B. Personally, I would prefer that it was to maximise draft capital and developing our existing you guys while taking a punt on one or two young FAs with upside. To that end, I can live with Randle and Peyton. I can also live with passing on draft night trades to bring in picks (though it’s frustrating in hindsight) if we still thought those big fish were in play. If we’d just signed those guys we’d still have had $40m to rent out, or wait out bargains later in free agency (or just gone after some of the other young upside plays like Noel).

      What’s hard to stomach is the maddening inconsistency and poor execution of that plan B. There’s just no coherent reason to keep pursuing Portis once you’ve signed Randle – it’s like they had discussions with both then were embarrassed to pull one offer when the other committed. There’s no reason to sign TWO 3-point shooting SGs when your roster is full of young SGs. There’s no reason WHATSOEVER to commit salaries to replacement level older guys on day 1 of free agency. You will always be able to spend that money later and who knows what other opportunities might arise in the meantime?

      I don’t hate our summer because I think not maxing Boogie or Harris ‘just because’ showed good restraint and a couple of our signings look like reasonable low risk punts where we maybe overpaid a bit bit got contract-length and option flex in return. That’s pretty decent work. But all of that would still be true if we didn’t pay Bullock, Ellington, Gibson and Portis $41m and we’d have so much more optionality for the rest of the summer. Those deals don’t have massive risk or long-term cost so they won’t kill us but they certainly have high potential opportunity cost and that really takes the shine off the better bits.

    20. Personally, I don’t like a single player we brought on board, not even Randle. But even in its deeply flawed execution, it’s a smart strategy.

    21. I like all these moves, I think if you look at a fair baseline (ie not 17 wins based on actively tanking for Zion) you can forecast enough improvement to earn a decent chance at the postseason if things break the right way and Fiz coaches up to his rep. Last year we played below replacement players for enough minutes to accumulate a staggering -6.9 VORP. This means that just replacing those minutes with a marginal D league player would result in an 18.6 win improvement on last years squad. A lot of those guys are gone, Frank and Knox are still here but a non tanking team has no business giving them minutes if they are not producing. Let them develop in the D league or practice. Playing on a functional team might actually be good for them, forcing them to focus on improving the aspects of their games that will make them productive instead of a hands off “give the kids the keys” approach that lets them drive the team off a cliff. Even our relatively low (still positive) VORP player acquisitions Ellington and Portis have high percentage shots and would be even more efficient scorers if you built a system that put them in a role that played to their strengths. The common theme to a lot of this potential upside is it relies heavily on Coach Fizdale putting players in position to succeed and developing the youth without costing the team wins. He might not be up to the job, but at least he has the tools to put a functional team on the court and it’s on him now. There are plenty of minutes for Mitch, if he doesn’t get run that’s on Fiz too.

    22. @ 19 – that’s a straw man question because unless its one of the top tier or maybe second tier free agents, you rarely hear about who else was vying for these guys.

    23. We are building for the first time in as long as I can remember and that’s a good thing. I see a lot of moveable contracts going forward. What’s the problem!?!

      Would I rather have Iguodala and a pick? IDK.

      Yes, I wish we had a 2024 first-round pick, with Iguodala’s contract coming off the books this summer, rather than signing all of these free agents.

    24. Barrett, Dotson and Frank can all play SF too. Knox can play PF. Portis, Randle and Taj can all play center too. Remember Perry talking about position less basketball?

    25. Also, the contracts with the team options make them potentially very attractive trade pieces later this year (or next if we pick them up they become expiring).

      Playoff teams always need shooting wings.

    26. Also, the contracts with the team options make them potentially very attractive trade pieces later this year (or next if we pick them up they become expiring).

      just like Courtney Lee

    27. We’ll never know if the Iggy deal was available to us. It’s possible that the first call GSW made was to Memphis and they said yes.

    28. they are definitely punting…but the punts are slots that should be rotating anyway… you shouldn’t really commit long term to any kind of role player for any kind of significant money… you can find those in any number of cheap avenues…

      i don’t think it’s a terrible way to go about it…. we don’t know who our core guys will be… randle and payton do have the possibility of turning into core guys themselves and they represent the good part of our offseason…

      we just don’t really know what we have… and i don’t think it’s wise to assume that everyone on this roster will be as bad as they were last offseason or assume what works and what doesn’t… we just don’t know who’s gonna be the guys who rise up… the role player contracts we dished out are designed to help us figure that out….

      i don’t necessarily agree with that but there is at least some merit to fielding a respectable team while continuing to build… because eventually when you figure out who your core is you’ll know the types of players that can work well with them… if randle doesn’t work out but portis shines next to mrob… we know we need a more perimeter oriented player next to mitch… or if rj and dsj can’t share the ball then we know we need less ball dominating players around those guys….

      this is what memphis did… it turned out gasol was a really great player…. and him and zachey actually worked in a strange way even though on paper it didn’t… they probably would’ve been worse off if they got some sort of stretch 4 low usage type…

      so it is sort of a punt… but within those two years we’ll figure out if rj, mitch, dsj, randle or payton are build around type players… if they are then we can go get whatever is missing… if it’s none of them you have the ability to start over and likely with a different gm….

    29. I think its interesting no one cares that Kadeem likely isn’t going to be on the team/getting any burn. Yes he’s a little bit older. But he already has a very good 3 pt % (albeit on a low volume) and a very good assist to turnover ratio. He’s a decent backup today, he doesn’t need to get too much better to be useful

    30. @27 I must have missed something, did Lee have a team option?

      I just don’t think these guys are going to get moved, even as expirings, nor will they be moved to teams looking for an 8th man for their playoff run. I think it’s typical KB optimism. Maybe I’ll be wrong.

    31. Yeah I kind of doubt the get moved as well. What would they even fetch in return? another expiring with a pick?

      anyway I really am glad all these contracts have team options

    32. I just do not understand the need to rush out and use all your cap space up in the first two days of free agency. Couldn’t they have waited to at least scour for some bargains and those with interesting upsides, since prices will undoubtedly decline over time. Instead there was some unexplained rush to lock up the Taj Gibson’s and Bobby Portis’ of the world. I simply do not see a lot of creative or out of the box thinking from this FO.

    33. The point is that on these contracts it doesn’t matter. If they suck or are unhappy, let them go. That is a HUGE difference!

    34. Here’s the way I look at it

      Mitchell today is better than Mitchell at the start of last season
      Randle is better than Kanter
      Knox has to be better than he was last year
      Barrett may not be better than Hardaway but he has the potential to be much better and he does stuff like passing way better. Heck, maybe he is better than Hardaway from day one.
      Peyton is better than Mudiay
      DSJ is better than the short dude we had last year to start the season.

      Then we got these vets/role players on the bench plus Dotson, Frank. The team is going to be better. A lot of it will be on Fizdale and if nothing else, this can be a prove it year for him too.

      Plus we have flexibility. If a star player wants to get traded, we can facilitate that with a lot of middle sized contracts with team options that are not long term commitments, some young players and extra picks. IF any of them bust out, we can retain them. We can possibly trade them at the deadline. Or we can just not pick them up if they totally suck next year.

      People want to go from 17 wins to 55 and I just don’t think it works that way. Plus the lottery odds are flattened. “tanking” which is a debatable strategy (I mean, it gets debated A LOT, right?) is now harder anyways. The Pelicans won 33 games last year. The Lakers moved up to the 4 spot. We moved down as far as we could with the worst record. So winning 25 to 35 games isn’t the no man’s land it used to be. And there is such a difference anyways between being the post 54 win Woodson led vet heavy team barely missing the playoffs with no draft picks and being a team with lots of young players, movable, short contracts and extra draft picks that wins 30ish games (if we’re lucky). I like what we did, but of course you guys probably all ready figured that out.

    35. The point is that on these contracts it doesn’t matter. If they suck or are unhappy, let them go. That is a HUGE difference!

      it is a huge difference but there is still significant opportunity costs to these contracts. i would trade literally any one of the contracts we signed for harkless at 1/11 and a miami protected first that can never become a 2nd. even if you believe the iggy deal was not available to us (i don’t), it is hard to argue the harkless deal would not have been. we weren’t smart, we were just less dumb than we could have been.

    36. Getting Harkless and a draft pick would have been a far better move than Gibson, Portis, or Bullock. One year at 11.5 mill and a first round pick, yeah that might have been good.

    37. Once the KD dream died, the team should have aggressively and proactively searched out cap rental for asset trades. They should have let the whole league know they were looking to make those deals. Instead they did the opposite, they made it clear they were NOT looking to make those trades.

      We’d all feel a lot better about this offseason if they had signed Randle and maybe Bullock and then added a couple of future picks for salary cap rentals.

    38. The Knicks didn’t have an awful off-season, but they had easy opportunities to make the Knicks better in the future that they passed up for no short or long term gain, so it certainly wasn’t a good offseason

    39. Typical KB optimism? Did you read yesterday’s thread?

      today is a new day

    40. People want to go from 17 wins to 55 and I just don’t think it works that way.

      It doesn’t unless you acquire multiple superstars in the same offseason. That’s why some of us have been arguing for a draft-led rebuild to make a 35-45 win contender with the trade assets and/or cap space to sign a major superstar in his prime.

      If the Knicks miraculously win 40 games this year, it will be a mirage. They’ll still be doing it on the backs of a bunch of contracts with players who are unlikely to have a place on the roster long-term. And we will have Bird rights for Randle alone, correct?

    41. We blatantly tampered with Golden State’s player for the last few months. They were not going to call on us unless no one else wanted to deal.

      The Harkless one is a missed opportunity if offered.

    42. Salary cap rentals are OK so long as the contracts you take on don’t go beyond this coming year. The extreme case is Andrew Wiggins, who wouldn’t be worth 10 picks, but there are many less extreme cases.

      The Knicks were not dumb this offseason. They just weren’t as smart as they could have been. Again, look carefully at all 30 team’s cap sheets and the deals they did since the Lottery. Other than the Pels and Jazz, which teams were “smarter” than us overall? Maybe the Clippers? Most of the teams made stupid signings (see: Denver) or are already in cap jail (see: Houston). Dumb would be maxing 2nd tier guys or signing 3rd tier (or below) guys to long-term deals or trading picks or young assets for middling veterans or signing deals with player options or no options.

    43. It was a C offseason, that’s for sure. Nothing terrible or crippling, nothing exciting outside of maybe Randle (and I do like Elfrid Payton more than most). The only team who came close to an A I would say is the Utah Jazz, who are a legit threat if Bogdanovic continues his stellar shooting from last season, and maybe the Nets but we’ll only know about that next season when Durant is back (and it has potential to be a complete mess if he’s not good anymore) and the Lakers if they get Kawhi. Most teams made lateral moves, like Philly, or got worse like the Celtics, Bucks and Warriors.

      The Pacers also made interesting moves but without a real superstar it’s hard to see them going too far, but they got a pretty good team.

    44. If the Knicks miraculously win 40 games this year, it will be a mirage. They’ll still be doing it on the backs of a bunch of contracts with players who are unlikely to have a place on the roster long-term. And we will have Bird rights for Randle alone, correct?

      I don’t think NBA players are great at attributing wins. They see a good record, a few players still on the team, and think that they can put that team over the top. See James, Lebron and LA Lakers.

      Lakers let their valuable players go and still added James to a 35 win team.

    45. If the Knicks miraculously win 40 games this year, it will be a mirage. They’ll still be doing it on the backs of a bunch of contracts with players who are unlikely to have a place on the roster long-term. And we will have Bird rights for Randle alone, correct?

      Unless we do it on the backs of Mitch, Trier, RJ and one or more of the other young players, supported by the vets we acquired. And if the Nets underachieve this year while waiting for Durant to recover, it could make for some interesting takes in the court of public opinion.

      We’ll be an interesting team this year, much more so than last year. We will probably still lose 50+ games but we should be very competitive in more than half of them. And the games vs. the Nets should be high drama.

    46. I do believe that doing nothing in FA was an option too. You should not call what they did smart just cause what others did was even worse.

    47. re: rebuilding through the draft, it’s not like we have foregone that opportunity. We have 6 first round picks in the next 4 years, and three potentially excellent second round picks in the next 2 years. It’s not out of the question that Dallas will implode (if either KP or Doncic go down, look out below!) and so as always, it comes down to who you draft, not necessarily how high (especially with the flattening.)

    48. We get early bird rights on all the players who make it through 2 years. I don’t expect we will want to max any of the players we just signed anyway. Early bird rights also has a smaller cap hold.

      Please feel free to correct me on this if any of it is wrong.

    49. The Knicks didn’t have an awful off-season, but they had easy opportunities to make the Knicks better in the future that they passed up for no short or long term gain, so it certainly wasn’t a good offseason

      I don’t know about ‘easy’ per se, but yeah. We punted in a pointless sort of way that might add some meaningless wins. Could have been a lot worse, could have been better. I’m curious about the list of guys who turned down these 1+1s but I suspect we’ll never know. It wasn’t a good off-season, but it wasn’t super bad. No major fuckups, that’s the Perry m.o.

    50. And we will have Bird rights for Randle alone, correct?

      best to think of Bird rights as a clock that travels with the player and not any particular contract, although it’s true that on longer-term contracts you are almost assured of eventually accruing them. If you’ve played two years without leaving a team as a free agent, you accrue early bird rights. At three years, full bird. Could be one contract or three contracts, doesn’t matter.

      So none of our free agents will have any bird rights next summer, period. In summer 2021, if they have either stayed on the Knicks or left in a trade (say, at the ASB or after the season which then would require the team option to be exercised) they will have early bird rights. Bird rights won’t come until 2022, assuming they haven’t switched teams via free agency, which for Randle probably means that his team option for 2021-22 was exercised by the knicks or someone else.

    51. Honestly, I think avoiding fuckups can win championships. You avoid fuckups and eventually get lucky in the draft or FA is sufficient. Just avoid being completely incompetent and you can win eventually.

    52. It was a C offseason, that’s for sure.

      I’d say a B or B-. It’s only a C if you believe we should have landed a max player or 2 or 3, which I only liked if it involved 2 of a healthy Durant, AD or Kawhi.

      The only box we didn’t check off is keeping cap space open for salary dumps to get assets. It’s an important box, but not enough to knock us down into C territory. We have no long-term deals and didn’t squander the assets we had or any cap space in 2021. As I said yesterday, dayenu.

    53. Bobby Portis could be a Houston Rocket by the trade deadline if he gets enough minutes. His contract is Mills but his game is Morey.

    54. BJ, you’re right that we should be better this season, but you shouldn’t interpret a negative VORP as an indication of a D-league player. Half of NBA players have a negative VORP. Our low team VORP last year means we had a lot of players who wouldn’t be in the regular rotation on most NBA teams but would be on the bench, not that we had the equivalent of D/leaguers.

    55. I don’t have a problem with these 1+1 deals.
      I think the strategy was smart. I am relieved we didn’t fall into the Stat trap again.
      Patience is welcome.
      I too want to rebuild through the draft, although the 14% deal makes tanking a stupid strategy. Who bets on a 14% chance, all things being equal?
      But while history has not been good to the Knicks in terms of using expiring contracts, that doesn’t mean they couldn’t get some picks for Randle or Portis, Payton or Ellington. It’s an option. Nothing is guaranteed. But unlike Lee, we can dump them after a year.

      The team also could not afford another 17-win season; even Knicks fans won’t turn out.
      So they added some talent on the margins. Most of the players are tough competitors.
      But in terms of executing, the youngsters need to get the minutes.
      Strangely, I’m in the minority on the Gibson move. I think the team needs an old, does the dirty stuff veteran on board. He sets an example. I think Rasheed Wallace. Obviously not as solid as Rasheed was, but tough.

      There were a whole lot of Dennis Smith fans on this board during his draft. I’m okay letting him get lots of minutes. Robinson, Knox (although Ignas needs a shot at beating out Knox), and Barrett need to get minutes and lots of patience. Dotson is what he is and I fear Frank is broken.
      So all in all, not bad. And it could have been way worse.
      I’m glad they didn’t take KD with the Achilles.
      Frankly, this all could turn badly for the Nets. Irving has hardly been a solid guy. He forced his way out of Cleveland and Boston, where they had a pretty decent set up. He appears to be a bit of a malcontent. And KD has similar characteristics. He dumped OKC and GSW. Neither guy seems disposed to being happy. Great players, but…

    56. The extreme case is Andrew Wiggins, who wouldn’t be worth 10 picks,

      I’m trying to figure out how much I’d need to take that contract. I’m still in awe that he went #1 and then they five-year maxed him after his dreadful third season.

      $172,560,293. That’s how much the Timberwolves will have paid him by the summer of 2023, since it looks highly unlikely that anyone would take that contract without 4 unprotected firsts and 4 seconds on top of that.

    57. Picking 5-7 is better than picking 9-11 but whatevs. Like I’m looking at the 2020 draft class and there are 5 or 6 players that look like top prospects, and then it kind of drops off.

      In the 2018 draft, the top 7 picks all look good, then there’s a big dropoff.
      In the 2017 draft, the top 5 or 6 are solid, then a dropoff.

      You don’t have to win the 14% magic lotto to benefit from better draft position. Drafting 9th or thereabouts sucks, I present to you Frank Ntilikina and Kevin Knox as evidence.

    58. Bobby Portis could be a Houston Rocket by the trade deadline if he gets enough minutes. His contract is Mills but his game is Morey.

      How would this play out? Houston won’t be able to absorb the Portis contract without sending back matching salary. Eric Gordon for Portis? Capela for Portis? PJ Tucker and the rest of their bench for Portis? None of those moves make any sense for the Knicks and they’d likely have to attach an asset to Portis in a Capela swap.

      Take a look at the payrolls of all the teams who think they’re ‘contending’. None of them have space to absorb Portis. Best the Knicks could hope for in a Portis trade would be getting back a similarly crummy player on a similar contract. There’s no upside there. Same goes for Ellington and Gibson. Maybe Bullock or Payton can actually be traded for assets eventually? I don’t know.

    59. it is a huge difference but there is still significant opportunity costs to these contracts. i would trade literally any one of the contracts we signed for harkless at 1/11 and a miami protected first that can never become a 2nd.

      Hmmmm…. there was someone here who said a week ago Pat and Mr Carnival Cruise at 75 weren’t going to sit around for 3-5 years of boring basketball and were going to dump some contracts to make a run at a top FA suggesting to be available to eat Whiteside/Dragic’s last 44M…..

    60. At this point, I think most – if not all – of us can stipulate to the following:

      – the FA talent acquired was underwhelming and won’t move the needle much for a team that won only 17 games last year.

      – the AAV of the contracts given to the players acquired is in excess of their past production and projected upside.

      – the make-up of the roster, as presently constructed, is a lopsided, ill-conceived mess.

      – the moves made were far from an optimum utilization of the resources (cap space) on hand.

      There appears to be widespread agreement on those points. Where the consensus breaks down is whether Sunday’s developments represents #lolsameolknicks or a sign of incremental progress from regimes past. As I posted yesterday, I come down in the latter camp. To wit:

      – no future draft picks were harmed or killed in the making of this roster.

      – contrary to the generalized dread of the past few weeks, the team did NOT get into a bidding war for KD and Kyrie. And despite numerous predictions here along the lines of “Boogie was born to be a Knick” the FO showed no apparent interest in him. IMO, this counts as a break from past starfuckings.

      – someone in the FO appears to have been made aware of something called a “team option” and, excited by its discovery, appears to have made it the centerpiece of this year’s free agent strategy.

      Sure, these are all practices that are the hallmark of any competent FO. But this is the NYK we’re talking about. It has literally taken them decades to evolve to this point. Expecting them to grasp a concept as nuanced as renting out cap space for picks is prolly a bridge too far at this point. It may well be another few years before they finally suss that one out. Or it may never happen until Dolan someday decides to value those with basketball acumen over the oleaginuous Grima Wormtongues and EB Farnums that currently dominate the FO. Unlikely, I know. Until then, baby steps are all we got.

    61. @46

      It was a C offseason, that’s for sure. Nothing terrible or crippling, nothing exciting outside of maybe Randle (and I do like Elfrid Payton more than most).

      I agree. I’m trying to talk myself into a C+, but I would not go B because of the Portis signing. Lighting $15m on fire instead of keeping that $ for a rainy day, esp. after already inking Randle. Ellington is a waste. Take those 2 guys away and I’d be at B+. Whatever playing time those two get should go to others, instead.

      But who knows, Portis is at least young, but last season really reflects poorly on him and the Knicks so quickly giving him pretty big $. I wouldn’t be surprised if he quickly gets in Fiz’s doghouse.

    62. I think there’s zero chance the Knicks reach 40 wins, as I think the team is too defensively challenged to go against the better teams. We’ll play 16 games against the Celtics, Sixers, Raptors and Nets in the probable strongest division in basketball, and outside of the Cavs, Hornets and Wizards who will all be terrible, the east is not that bad at all. The Pistons, Heat and Hawks will all be going hard for playoff spots too with better teams than ours.

      I’d say a realistic range is between 25 and 32 wins.

    63. This is still a bottom-5 roster in the league, so there’s going to be some form of a tank coming. Next year’s draft class is pretty interesting, there’s the two slick looking guard prospects from France, Maledon and Hayes, there’s Cole Anthony, there’s Anthony Edwards, there’s the Israeli kid Deni Avdija… it’s a guard-heavy class but those are all interesting prospects.

    64. @63
      Wow, references to both Lord of the Rings and Deadwood in the same post!

      Post of the day!

    65. Bobby Portis could be a Houston Rocket by the trade deadline if he gets enough minutes. His contract is Mills but his game is Morey.

      It is funny after the shock wore off what the Knick’s were doing signing 3 bigs, the only thing that made any sense was they were grabbing them to ship them off to someone else December 15th.

      Players with no three ball are out of vogue today sans Gobert level defense. Maybe Morey likes Randle/Portis better than Capela /Tucker.

      Of course…. this is probably Knick fans with Stockholm Syndrome trying to make chicken salad out of chicken shit but who knows???

      I get picking up a couple of vets to keep the young players “honest” (to at least have viable options should the young players dog it on defense), but they certainly seemingly engaged in overkill here.

    66. There is no question in my mind that this off-season is not the disaster of offseasons past. But it was still not good, or even average. I fail to see Perry’s long term plan.

      Best case scenario is that these vets all exceed expectations and the Knick s make a miracle run at 40 wins. Okay, what did that accomplish? I guess we got a few months of semicompetitive basketball, which is nice. But it will also have meant that these overachieving vets were playing ahead of the raw youngsters, which inhibits their development. And we also won’t get a high draft pick, hurting our chances of bringing in new talent. Then Perry picks up all the team options, and the same thing happens again. Two years from now, we either overpay these guys to keep a 40-win team together or they leave and we ‘re back where we started.

      And that’s the BEST case scenario. What is the point exactly?

    67. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them! says:

      i would trade literally any one of the contracts we signed for harkless at 1/11 and a miami protected first that can never become a 2nd. even if you believe the iggy deal was not available to us (i don’t), it is hard to argue the harkless deal would not have been. we weren’t smart, we were just less dumb than we could have been.

      100%

      You can’t just judge a front office just by what they did. You have to include what they didn’t do. The latter is sometimes difficult to do because you never really know what was available. Some guys may just tell their agent they don’t want to go to NY. But if you are competent, you should come up with a positive suprise once in awhile. The best GMs do.

      We did nothing bad, but anyone could have paid a premium to keep contracts short with an team option so we could make another run at free agency later. We rolled the cap space over. At least we got a few young players to take a look at. Maybe one of these days one will stick. Mudiay, Hezonja, and unfortunately Vonleh did not.

    68. I’m going on record, to say we are a playoff team

      even for you this is unfathomably bold

    69. I’m going on record, to say we are a playoff team

      Which of these projected starters are average or above average?

      PG Elfrid Payton
      SG Reggie Bullock
      SF RJ Barrett
      PF Julius Randle
      C Mitch Robinson

      I’d say two of those five will likely be average or better, Randle and Robinson. The bench in this scenario is DSJ, Ellington, Knox, Gibson, Portis, Ntilikina and whatever other dreck. That is a group of mediocre vets and bad young players.

      25 wins.

    70. Picking 5-7 is better than picking 9-11 but whatevs. Like I’m looking at the 2020 draft class and there are 5 or 6 players that look like top prospects, and then it kind of drops off.

      In the 2018 draft, the top 7 picks all look good, then there’s a big dropoff.
      In the 2017 draft, the top 5 or 6 are solid, then a dropoff.

      You don’t have to win the 14% magic lotto to benefit from better draft position. Drafting 9th or thereabouts sucks, I present to you Frank Ntilikina and Kevin Knox as evidence.

      JK47,
      I get the math. But Kawhi was drafted 15th. Paul George 10th. Klay 11th. Draymond, 35th. Jokic 45th. McCollum 10th. Capella 15th.
      While many of the top players were drafted 1-5, and it would be lovely to get that pick, there are a ton of elite players in the NBA who went later than 10. I’m just not sure tanking is worth the payoff.
      But I respect your point.

    71. someone in the FO appears to have been made aware of something called a “team option” and, excited by its discovery, appears to have made it the centerpiece of this year’s free agent strategy.

      This is pure gold!

    72. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them! says:

      The reason for Portis is that he’s a stretch PF that can rebound and play some C. He’s theoretically a better fit next to Robinson than Randle. If Randle’s 3 is not falling, all you have to do is pack the paint and you’ll limit Robinson’s lob and Randle’s inside game. We don’t even have the kind of high level perimeter shooting at the guards and wings that can mitigate that a little (at least not starting). Portis will provide better spacing. The problem with Portis is that he does not defend well and he’s not particularly efficient overall. He’ll have to get better on offense and a lot better on defense to be worth anywhere near what we are paying. If not, we’ll move on. I don’t like it, but I think I understand the thinking.

    73. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them! says:

      Robinson
      KP
      Mikal Bridges
      RJ Barrett
      Elfrid Payton

      Frank/Dotson/Trier etc.. off the bench

      This PLUS MORE could easily be ours right now if we made some better moves over the last few years.

    74. Portis’ anemic free throw rate and inability to get easy buckets really limits his upside. He’s a destitute man’s Kevin Love, shoots threes and gets rebounds but doesn’t defend. In Love’s prime he got to the line a lot though, and Portis does not have that component of his game at all.

    75. You guys are right. we would have had a much better chance at Kyrie / KD if we had just signed Kawahi first.

    76. I think this is a 38 win team.
      But if Robinson suddenly emerges as an elite player this year, which I do not think is crazy, they could do better.
      I like Randle, above average TS% and eFG% on moderate usg%.
      He’s a 25/10 guy/36. Add in nearly 4 assists/36.
      Next to Robinson’s defense and finishing ability at the net, this could be a pretty tough duo in the paint.
      We’re a bit heavy at the SF, but some of those guys could play the 2 or the 4.

      Huge question at point. Smith/Payton/Frank

      God, when was the last time we felt good about our guards…?

    77. I’m going on record, to say we are a playoff team

      If Nikola Vucevic, Andre Drummond, and Blake Griffin are all injured, I could see us potentially being in the hunt until about January, if I squint really hard.

    78. Continued tanking also risks having guys like RJ Barrett (*) get disgruntled a la KP at the continued losing. With the shrunken lottery odds, it just isn’t worth it.

      (*) And if they pan out, Kevin Knox and Dennis Smith, Jr. Yeah, Janis, but the Knicks haven’t yet even proven they can build a culture their home-grown drafted guys want to be a part of. That’s way more of an imperative than an extra couple ping-pong balls.

    79. so let’s take a slightly deeper look at win projecting this roster… this is not a great way to look at it but this is a lot better than guessing….

      i made the following assumptions:
      1) knox will not get major minutes – he might at the start of the year but i think he’ll be coming off the bench sporadically until he actually shows some nba skills… ditto for frank…
      2) bullock/ellington/barrett will get lionshare of the SF minutes – the team lacks shooting so they will see a lot more floor time…
      3) small regression from mitch.. bigger minutes boost – which is to be expected.. he was playing at an unsustainable pace last year even for how good he was…
      4) no major improvement from mostly anyone – this is to provide a fair baseline even though the team is young…
      5) modest improvement from dsj – this might.. or probably.. not happen.. but you can use this as a proxy for any modest improvement from anyone on this list and given the age.. .someone is likely to overperform their projection..

      payton 2400 mins .075 ws48 3.75
      smith 1900 mins .060 ws48 2.38
      barrett 1800 mins .050 ws48 1.875
      bullock 1500 mins .0975 ws48 3.05
      ellington 1200 mins .080 ws48 2.0
      randle 2400 mins .135 ws48 6.75
      robinson 2000 mins .190 ws48 7.92
      portis 1200 mins .060 ws48 1.5
      gibson 1200 mins .125 ws48 3.125
      +
      knox/frank/dotson/iggy/trier – 3000 mins .025 ws48 1.5

      that puts us at 33.85 wins

      again this very imprecise… and probably not the best methodology… but i think folks who are assuming 20 some odd wins is a fair bit offbase… that probably won’t happen unless rj is a total bust AND gets major minutes… and if he’s a bust then everything else is irrelevant… we have much larger problems…. it could also occur if mitch gets absolutely buried on the bench or gets hurt.. which again would signal that we have much larger problems than 2020 win totals…

      with that in mind… i think we’re going to be in for an ok yr…

    80. 3) small regression from mitch.. bigger minutes boost – which is to be expected.. he was playing at an unsustainable pace last year even for how good he was…

      This is actually my great fear about the season — going from one viable superstar prospect to zero. I have a hard time seeing him turn into a 20 USG% player at .650 TS% with a >5 DBPM. The rookie year was so good it feels like he could go either way.

    81. I’m a bit Knicksy in my optimism about our man Mitch.

      Quite a Randle chart there, HCJ. Thanks.

      You know, I have watched Portis a bit live in Washington. He seemed like a guy who could very well become a top third guy. Forty percent from three is nothing to laugh at, but how can you shoot like that from three and not so good from 2pt? 8 boards/36, 1.1 steals/36. 80% from the stripe…if only he got there more. He could be nice for spreading the floor.

    82. A useful proxy for our projected win total is last year’s Pelicans, because Randle led them in scoring and Elfrid was their starting PG. They also had Davis and Jrue, who are miles better than anyone on our roster. They also had Mirotic for a while. Beyond that, their roster was similarly untalented as ours.

      That team only won 33 games. We’re not better than them at any position. It would take a miracle for us to reach 40 wins. 25-32 is much more realistic.

    83. Knox and Barrett are also viable superstar prospects. Nineteen-year-old 6’9 guys that can get off a shot pretty much every time they want, have a high variety in their shot repertoire, including high athleticism in transition, and who have very good shooting form, are potential superstars. They’re rare.

      I’m happy to be able to watch very young guys like Mitch, Knox, Barrett, and to a degree DSJ play. They all have very high ceilings and it’s fun to see if they can reach them. They may never get there, but it’s still fun. I’m also happy that they put together a team that can at least let them play competitive NBA games, instead of the somewhat farcical ones they played in last year.

    84. RJ is the key. He’s gotta show he can be the best player on the court. That’s the chance at .500 one day.

    85. E,

      I am worried about Knox. He was literally terrible. He would have to make a massive turn around to become a superstar.
      No, the guy with that much potential on this roster is Mitch. RJ hasn’t played a minute of pro ball but wasn’t an efficient college player. Classic high volume guy

    86. @82 I think this is a 38 win team.

      LOL – 38 wins?? Unless RJ Barrett turns out to be better than Zion and Mitch turns into Hakeem I don’t think so.

    87. Knox and Barrett are also viable superstar prospects.

      https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/carmelo/kevin-knox/

      He’s not. According to 538, he was worth -7.6 wins against replacement. To VORP, -5.94. Win Shares, -1.3. Wins Produced, -6.38.

      He was the worst player in the league last year. He is not a superstar prospect. The fact that he was able to put the ball in the vicinity of the rim is not a winning basketball skill.

      Nineteen-year-old 6’9 guys that can get off a shot pretty much every time they want, have a high variety in their shot repertoire, including high athleticism in transition, and who have very good shooting form, are potential superstars. They’re rare.

      Who are we referring to, here? Barrett struggled badly in the NCAA and likely would have seen a significant drop in draft stock had Zion not single-handedly carried them to moderate tourney success. Knox was the worst player in the NBA last year.

      Terrible players, like Knox, are not rare. And Barrett has played zero minutes again NBA-quality competition. Calling them superstars in waiting is an affront to the actually-good players in their cohort, like Doncic and Ayton.

    88. anyone know what our payroll is now? It seems like we’ve used all available cap space.

      For those claiming Perry didn’t make any major mistakes, that’s a big one. Would you rather have Bobby Portis or $16mm to facilitate a three way trade at the trade deadline? Seems like a pretty big blunder to spend over the floor for veteran leadership that could be acquired at the minimum.

    89. It seems like we have 4 M left, plus the exception…
      But it really depends on how they structured the new contracts, I read somewhere that Randle could be frontloaded.

    90. the pelicans underachieved their pythagorean win projection by 4… in other words they were really a 37 win team… and it’s easy to see why given the AD situation they had….

      so they were better… but their win total didn’t reflect that… so we could be a 33 win team also and still be considered worse… we could also underachieve our pythagorean win total but we could just as likely overachieve…

    91. What did the great Danny Ainge accomplish? He replaced Horford, Irving, Baynes and Rozier with Kemba, Kanter, and two draft picks.

      What did the great Daryl Morey accomplish? Nothing. The Rockets are totally fucked.

      What did the Sean Marks accomplish? He capped out his team with an injury-prone malcontent, a seriously injured 32yo immortal on the decline, and the corpse of a former DPOY. He got a pick back from GSW but lost his best young piece in the process. In three years, they will be the Rockets East, in cap hell with untradeable contracts and not enough to make it to the Finals.

      i know it’s petty, but, this take here made me feel better…and, yeah – i’m seriously wishing for a mavs collapse too…

    92. The hope is that the good shooting form, which Knox has, changes the outcome from “the vicinity of the basket” to “in the basket” frequently enough. That’s not an unrealistic hope.

      If Knox had bad form on his shot or general unathletic awkwardness otherwise, my outlook would be entirely different.

    93. Knox and Ntilikina will make us a bottom five team again, but if Barrett and Robinson turn into Donovan Mitchell and Rudy Gobert, we have a shot at 32-50.

    94. BTW, re: seniority. I remember arguing in favor of David Lee becoming the starting PF here….So, yeah, Jerome James was on the team, sorta.

      I deserve happiness

      https://i.giphy.com/media/BZQziX6q2hmX6/giphy.webp

      and hell, you live in a gorgeous part of the world, and, make great music – shoot, i’d say you’re already way ahead in life…

    95. The Only way to get 30wins or more is by staying healthy while All or Most other teams lose their star player/s with a season ending injury.

    96. I think Fiz we’ll be coaching for his job,
      the talent on the roster is better than last year and another season of unstructured, playground style, no defense, 20 win basketball without leaps of improvement from the youngsters will not be accepted.

    97. Getting Harkless and a draft pick would have been a far better move than Gibson, Portis, or Bullock. One year at 11.5 mill and a first round pick, yeah that might have been good.

      i sort of/kind of get what the FO did the last few days – what i don’t understand is their rationale for not wanting to take on other team’s “bad” contracts…

      Once the KD dream died, the team should have aggressively and proactively searched out cap rental for asset trades. They should have let the whole league know they were looking to make those deals. Instead they did the opposite, they made it clear they were NOT looking to make those trades.

      they made an issue of wanting to bring in their “type” of player…

      I’m not sure how those two are mutually exclusive, but, supposedly that’s our front office’s philosophy towards any wheeling and dealing to bung on another teams signed player (and, acquire draft compensation)…

    98. @103 I wouldn’t go that far. Last year, his job was to tank while giving the young guys playing time. He accomplished that. Now this will be the first year that some degree of win improvement will be anticipated along with seeing how he handles a somewhat better roster and develop the youngsters (which is most of the team).

      In short, there will be some degree of expectation of team improvement where last year there was none. I don’t believe that equates to “coaching for his job”.

    99. I found interesting that they promoted Westchester coach to Fiz’s assistant.
      I’m not advocating for Fiz’s firing, I hope we’ll have a “decent” season.
      But for him it’s time to replace words with facts,
      there’s no place for his dungeon this year.

    100. I have way more faith in Knox becoming an asset in his 2nd year than I did for Ntilikina. Let’s hope I’m right again!

    101. The list of 19-year old wing types over 6-5 who were able to get off 15+ shots/36 in over 1000 minutes consists of:

      Kobe Bryant
      Carmelo Anthony
      LeBron James
      Luka Doncic
      Marvin Bagley (if you consider him a wing, I kind of don’t)
      Cliff Robinson (the NJ/Philly one, not the UConn/Blazer one)
      Kevin Durant
      Kevin Knox

      Getting shots off as a wing in the NBA is a skill. One of the primary reasons wings come into the league and go bust is because they can’t get shots off.

    102. The list of 19-year old wing types over 6-5 who were able to get off 15+ shots/36 in over 1000 minutes consists of:

      Kobe Bryant
      Carmelo Anthony
      LeBron James
      Luka Doncic
      Marvin Bagley (if you consider him a wing, I kind of don’t)
      Cliff Robinson (the NJ/Philly one, not the UConn/Blazer one)
      Kevin Durant
      Kevin Knox

      This is ridiculous. Getting off shots???
      You don’t think this is more a reflection of the kind of season the Knicks were having that a guy as inefficient as Knox took that many shots? I think Knox shooting that much was part of the tank plan.

    103. I agree. I’m trying to talk myself into a C+, but I would not go B because of the Portis signing. Lighting $15m on fire instead of keeping that $ for a rainy day, esp. after already inking Randle. Ellington is a waste. Take those 2 guys away and I’d be at B+. Whatever playing time those two get should go to others, instead.

      i just remembered what you did for a living, and, this made me smile…

      – no future draft picks were harmed or killed in the making of this roster.

      that’s actually kind of remarkable for us…and yeah, that was a pretty spectacular post…

      I found interesting that they promoted Westchester coach to Fiz’s assistant.

      from a winning basketball perspective, hard to judge fiz on last year, but, yeah – expectations should rise this year…let’s hope he can actually coach for wins half as good as he can talk about it…

      otherwise, mike miller – come on down, you’re the next coaching contestant on: ‘this team ain’t right’…

    104. It’s really not ridiculous at all. Getting off shots at the NBA level is a skill, especially as a wing. It’s difficult to get a shot up to the vicinity of the basket in the NBA. Very difficult.

      No, I don’t think it was a reflection of the kind of season the Knicks were having. I watched most/all of the games and Knox was getting off good, normal wing shots. He didn’t make enough of them. Hopefully his good shooting form together with maturity and a bit more strength will change that calculus. If it does, the Knicks have a player. It might not. Dude was 19 years old.

    105. Well Knox shot 34% from 3 as a 19 year old, so there is an outside chance that he could end up as a 40% guy from deep. I’m interested in what he will look like in Summer League. Hopefully he shoots a ton of 3s and not much else.

    106. It’s really not ridiculous at all. Getting off shots at the NBA level is a skill, especially as a wing. It’s difficult to get a shot up to the vicinity of the basket in the NBA. Very difficult.

      melo…melo…melo…melo…melo…melo…melo…melo…melo…melo…melo…melo…melo…melo…melo…melo…melo…melo…melo…melo…melo…melo…melo…melo…melo…melo…melo…melo…melo…melo…melo…melo…melo…melo…melo…melo…melo…melo…melo…melo…melo…melo…melo…melo…melo…melo…melo…melo…melo…melo…melo…melo…melo…melo…melo…melo…melo…melo…melo…melo…melo…melo…melo…

    107. Well Knox shot 34% from 3 as a 19 year old, so there is an outside chance that he could end up as a 40% guy from deep. I’m interested in what he will look like in Summer League. Hopefully he shoots a ton of 3s and not much else.

      Yeah, it’s not like there isn’t something that we can pin any Knox hopes on. He did shoot pretty well from three. He did everything else terribly, but he did shoot pretty well from three. So you can look at that and try to extrapolate something good from that. That’s the angle. So we don’t need to go down the “taking shots is a skill” rabbit hole. Ooph.

    108. “It’s not how many shots you make, Marv. It’s how many you take!” -Bill Walton, troll

    109. I’m trying to understand WHY the FO signed all these ‘secondary’ players SO FKN FAST and the best i can think is: To ‘distract’ and ‘calm?’the angry knicks fanbase for losing/letting go KD’s trio …
      …. which ain’t good …
      Can’t think of anything better…

    110. The list of 19-year old wing types over 6-5 who were able to get off 15+ shots/36 in over 1000 minutes consists of:

      Kobe Bryant
      Carmelo Anthony
      LeBron James
      Luka Doncic
      Marvin Bagley (if you consider him a wing, I kind of don’t)
      Cliff Robinson (the NJ/Philly one, not the UConn/Blazer one)
      Kevin Durant
      Kevin Knox

      Lmao you gotta respect this. It’s like ruru but for Kevin Knox.

    111. That’s cool. I’ll go back to admiring and following from afar.

      Don’t take it personally, E. Everyone comes under some critique here.

    112. Yeah, E. We pile on because we love. And/or because we’re exasperated by our inability to quit this meshugga team.

    113. The reason Knox is in that list is because there haven’t been many 19 year old wings at all, and guys who are as terrible as he was in his rookie year simply don’t average 30 minutes per game ever. All the good guys on the list got as many minutes as they had simply because they were extremely hyped teenagers who landed on terrible teams that had no other plan outside of developing them (Durant, Melo, Lebron, Doncic), and Kobe shouldn’t count because he was in his second year in his 19 year old year. Bagley doesn’t even play a similar position.

      I appreciate the effort and I think it’s in good faith, but it’s pretty clear the list is no indication of future success as Knox’s situation is incredibly unique in this list and there’s no other factors that connect him to any of the stars in the list outside of the amount of shots they have taken.

    114. I can guarantee you that if you put me in a Knicks uniform and nobody benched me if I was playing terrible I’d be able to hoist 15 shots per 36. Granted, the vast majority would end up being swatted away, but a shot is a shot is a shot.

    115. To go a bit further, shots taken is not a measure of skill whatsoever, it’s a measure of reputation and it’s related to team situation. Andrew Wiggins took 16.6 shots per game last season while being one of the absolute worst players in the league to get as many minutes, simply because he has the reputation of being a 1st overall pick and Minnesota had no other plan. Hell, Jerry Stackhouse once has a notorious season where he nearly averaged 30 ppg on 24 shots a game on pretty bad efficiency (around .520 ts%) and he wasn’t a star at all, he was just the most famous player on a terrible team.

    116. That’s cool. I’ll go back to admiring and following from afar.

      You’re welcome here, but it’s not the first time that the argument has been made. And it’s never been shown to have a firm basis in reality. Our dearly departed snake-oil peddler ruruland used to make this argument about how Melo’s ability to take lots of hard shots meant that his team necessarily shot better. It also made him more valuable than the stats could ever represent. Time after time, he was wrong.

      I don’t think Knox is without “upside,” but you have to completely ignore his historically-bad play to see a future superstar in him. Throwing up a bunch of FGA does not have any predictive power on his ability to generate FGM.

      The future-star argument means that he’s going to see a rate of improvement so great that he outpaces all of those other players who might see their FGA/poss. go up while maintaining a respectable TS%. I don’t see it happening. The odds are against it.

    117. That’s cool. I’ll go back to admiring and following from afar

      well done this is a beautiful trick. feign retreat whilst the enemy dances unknowingly upon your deftly laid metaphorical land mine: haha we have shown that tenderfoot the near impossible folly of aspiring to maintain fire in a hostile environment.

    118. If you’re a Knox believer, your argument should go somewhere along these lines:

      1. He shot relatively well from 3, particularly late in the season, particularly factoring in his age.
      2. His form, as e has noted, looks very good. When the ball goes in, it looks and sounds beautiful. And when it doesn’t go in, it looks like it should have.
      3. He was the second-youngest player in the league, with a body not remotely built to withstand NBA contact. With more weight training, more experience, and more understanding of what he can and can’t get away with when he bulls to the basket, he could greatly improve in that area
      4. There were nights when he rebounded like a man possessed. Not a ton, but enough to suggest he could do that more often with better conditioning and more prompting from the coaches.
      5. Because the team was hot garbage all season, and because some high usage guys went to Dallas at midseason, Fizdale gave him more responsibility and more freedom than your average gangly 19-year-old rookie would ordinarily get. This frequently put him into position to do things he’s bad at right now, but may in theory help him either learn how to do them better or recognize that he shouldn’t do them now that the team has several more NBA rotation players.
      6. Did I mention he was only 19?

    119. And I understand that unlike ruruland, you’re not saying that a tall wing helped the team by missing shots (or taking them), but there’s still no argument that taking shots means that you will get substantially better at making them. It’s not a matter of having good form or being stronger or whatever. Solving distance shooting woes is complicated as hell. You can’t just do some plyo shit and suddenly improve your shooting efficiency. If his form were good, he wouldn’t be a .475 TS% shooter.

      I’ll put it this way: GSW led the league with a .565 eFG% against the Cavs’ 29th-ranked .503 eFG%. (I didn’t want to use the Knicks’ league-worst eFG%, since Knox contributed to it.)

      Take that gap and double it. That’s Knox’s eFG% — .438.

    120. All it is is a shorthand heuristic for the kind of player who might — repeat, might — become a superstar even though his numbers on their face suck. (*) He has the capacity to get to the high usage numbers you need in superstars. If he didn’t get shots off he wouldn’t. I’d have no optimism at all if:

      1. His shooting form sucked.
      2. He went into the lane and got his shit blocked half the time.
      3. He didn’t look athletic in transition.
      4. He otherwise looked dorky or clumsy or goofy or whatever adjective you want to use for the opposite of how he actually looked.

      The shots idea was never meant to suggest that Jerry Stackhouse was more skilled than Tracy McGrady or Penny Hardaway because he chucked more. Come on.

      His halfcourt lane moves can work if he gets a bit stronger. He kind of shoots it going not enough toward the basket and that could be why it misses a lot. In my opinion, it likely is. I could be wrong. And he may never improve much there.

      He’s already a decent three-point shooter. With his form, he has plenty of room for growth there.

      The bb-ref numbers aren’t pretty, but there is room for some eye test here.

      (*) I probably didn’t frame the question right enough. To me it’s, “If you had a 19 year old who played a lot with bad bb-ref numbers, what would you need to see to retain some hope that he has a high ceiling he could potentially reach?” My answer is, essentially, the ability to get shots on his own with some variety, not get it swatted all the time, who looks athletic particularly in transition, with good shooting form. We’ll see how it pans out.

    121. With more weight training, more experience, and more understanding of what he can and can’t get away with when he bulls to the basket, he could greatly improve in that area

      Rookie season dunk attempt % from some skinny tall rookies:

      Durant 7.0%
      Giannis 16.0%
      Corey Brewer 2.9%
      Tayshaun Prince 3.4%
      Shaun Livingston 2.3%
      Knox 2.8%
      Ingram 4.7%
      Anthony Davis 20.9% (dude was skiiiiinny as a rookie)
      Garnett 5.0%
      Anthony Randolph 12.8%

      Doesn’t bode well.

    122. apparently the Warriors heard my pained cries when they let Jordan Bell walk for the min

    123. A lot of people seem to be taking the perspective of damage reduction (hey, these deals won’t be terrible, there’s flexibility) instead of being actual values/assets. The Knicks are nowhere close to contention or the playoffs and should be collecting assets—likely none of the players they signed are assets.

      Even worse, the roster construction makes no sense. Randle/Portis/Gibson effectively push Knox and Iggy out of their preferred positions. That in turn creates a jam at the 1/2 with DSJ, Frank, Allen, Trier, RJ, and Dotson. These are all players we should be trying to develop, and now we have Payton, Ellington, and Bullock on top of that. A couple depth pieces would make sense, but with the amount of money they’re getting, you’d expect them to take playing time away from the young players.

      The Knicks didn’t take their cap space seriously. Miss out on the top FAs? Might as well waste it and punt next season.

      If they wanted to go for being respectable next year, Dragic/Bullock/Randle makes sense. They needed another wing and another big, and an actually good facilator would do wonders for this terrible passing team. Bring back Kornet and Vonleh. Then you’re left with:
      Guard: Dragic/DSJ/Trier/Frank/Allen
      Wing: RJ/Knox/Dotson/Bullock/Iggy
      Big: Mitch/Randle/Vonleh/Kornet

      And also some cap space left over for picking up assets. Payton in the Dragic role isn’t bad, but Ellington/Portis/Gibson makes no sense and is a complete waste.

    124. He otherwise looked dorky or clumsy or goofy or whatever adjective you want to use for the opposite of how he actually looked.

      See, to me, he did look dorky, particularly in the halfcourt. Even on fast breaks, he kind of resembled a giraffe on roller skates, but had enough room to maneuver to make that work. But my concern about the kid stems as much from eye test as from the mostly horrendous stats.

    125. rama got that Fizdale Magic
      June 26, 2019 at 12:42 pm
      The best thing I can say is that with all our draft picks and cap space, we are in a good position to get lucky.

      But we would actually need luck to come our way. There are no moves we can make to get there without it. Which is why it’s imperative NOT to leap at band-aids like DAR and Randle. The openness to opportunity is actually our best asset right now. (And Mitch!)

      So, I tuned out completely for a few days, because I was sure we’d do really stupid stuff like sign Boogie and max Tobias, and I wouldn’t have been able to deal with it. Today, instead of reading the news to catch up, I just read the KB threads. I highly recommend this path in the future: don’t live the Knicks in real time, bouncing along the bumpy, unmediated road of reality – follow the KB commentary post facto, so you can breathe and laugh and not think about how much damage all those bumps are doing to your testicles.

      Did we do well? No. Did we fail completely? No. As I’ve said, Perry is good at contracts; he aced this off-season. As I’ve also said, Perry isn’t great at identifying talent; signing a bunch of deeply flawed players to play the same position is, for example, sub-optimal.

      I get that they felt fans couldn’t endure another season like the last, and that they needed to save face after crowing about the wonderful things about to happen that didn’t happen. But this offseason could have been a B+ if they had simply STOPPED. SIGNING. PLAYERS.

      I didn’t think we could get Randle on the contract we did; as is, it’s a good deal for a player with potential. Good.

      I don’t think the value of a vet is worth $10 mil a year. Bad.

      I do believe a stretch 4 who can rebound makes sense next to Mitch. Good. But as the fourth big, at $15 mil a year? Bad.

      And so on…

    126. WCS to the Warriors for what Zach Lowe’s source describes as “something slightly above the minimum salary.”

      Obviously, when you’re the Warriors, even the hobbled Warriors, it’s a lot easier to get guys to sign for cheap in hopes of building up their value. But for us to be paying Bobby Portis $15.5 million while WCS is making that… yeesh.

    127. Does this offseason rank as an F if they decide to start Portis over Mitch?

    128. The Ellington/Bullock signings are the same: would it be good to add a wing who can shoot? Yes. Should we then add a second similar? No. But we did!

      The move I like the most is actually Payton. We desperately need a PG, and I don’t have a lot of confidence in DSj. (Or, alas, Frankie Smokes.) If we had signed Randle, Payton, and I guess Bullock, leaving the rest of the space open, I would given that a B. If we had used the open space to take on players and picks, I would have given that an A. All things considered, though, we’re looking at a C.

      As I wrote a week ago, the absolute crucial move was to stay open to opportunity, to be available to luck. We are and we aren’t. To be clear, there’s one move that Perry is looking at:

      With all the 1+1 deals, he will be able to sign AD next offseason if things go south (as they may) in LA.

      I don’t think they believe they have a shot at Giannis, but I bet they are keeping the door open for AD, who wants to play here. If they sign him, I will regrade this all a B+. (Not A, because really, wtf with all the forwards???)

    129. Percentage of overall shots that were dunk attempts? What does that show?

      In any event, Knox’s moves around the rim typically aren’t dunk attempts. They’re typically that two foot leap thingie that looks ok but then you kind of realize he didn’t get quite enough lift and he didn’t thrust himself quite the right way but he still got it up there with decent form but the not quite right lift and the the not quite right thrust meant it didn’t go in enough.

      He shot 45.3% from 0-5 feet. Terrible. He got to that area 3.3 times a game. Not bad. (Kevin Durant, 3.8) The 45.3% is effectively what tanked his bb-ref numbers. There’s reason to believe he’s got a ton of room to grow there.

    130. Vonleh to Minnesota, for what I’m sure is a much better salary than we are paying Bobby Portis. (Man, do I want all of us to be spectacularly wrong about Bobby Portis, even though I know we won’t be.)

    131. Knox’s non-dunk shot attempts around the rim were consistently the worst I’ve ever seen in the NBA. The floater could be ok; the layup attempts were truly awful with no chance of going in most of the time. He demonstrated a lack of touch, body control, and basic understanding of how to get by a defender/create space. He had none of the basic moves most NBA players have for finishing a play. The decision making only exacerbates the issue.

    132. Percentage of overall shots that were dunk attempts? What does that show?

      He gets close to the rim, but not to the rim. That’s pretty damn disconcerting to see from a guy who’s a legit 6’9″ with an 8’10” standing reach. Not good.

      There’s reason to believe he’s got a ton of room to grow there.

      It’s a weakness, which is an opportunity to get better. But I think this is couched in an attitude like, “It can’t get any worse than it is.” Like you said, he’s 19, but getting older doesn’t necessarily mean getting better. See: Andrew Wiggins.

      I think he’ll improve, but he has so far to go before he’s even close to average, to say nothing of superstar-level play.

    133. I wonder if its better to put Knox on the summer league team to brick freely 3s OR send him to Sepolia for a month with no money in his pocket to sell cds and purses for a living and come back with ‘greek freak’s ‘do or die’ mentality’

    134. The Kinks and Lakers both have TGIAGOTOSS, the grass is always greener on the other side syndrome. If they lose a lot of games, none of their own players except for their own recent draft picks can be any good. Vonleh is a good example of this.

    135. Yeah, the dorky floaters are what kills me about Knox. If he threw his arms around like crazy but actually got to the rim, I’d be fine with it, because at least it could mean he could be great at drawing fouls one day. But the weird floaters were what many of us were concerned about his college tape, and so far these concerns have been very justified, he just can’t finish at the rim and he doesn’t go for enough contact to get fouls called. Even if he becomes eventually a good 3 point shooter, if he’s a scorer who can’t finish at the rim, can’t handle the ball or initiate the offense and won’t defend or pass really ever, then what’s really his ceiling? 32 year old Melo without the rebounding but with a little production in transition? That’s not really a player I want on the Knicks.

      If Portis starts over Mitch, then Fizdale needs to be fired before October ends.

    136. For all the flack the Knicks exec’s are getting, the idea of signing literally your whole team to 1+1s is novel. It gives us more roster flexibility than any team in history.

      I’m holding out hope that the team options are actually partially or unguaranteed contracts–apparently those are the same thing now. If that’s the case we can trade with any team looking for an asset. Need a playoff rental for 1 year? We have guys. Need a salary dump? We got you. If the players outperform their contract (unlikely) we have their early bird rights. To those who say, no one will want to trade for overpaid players, most teams that are looking to add them are contenders likely capped out anyway.

      Given their statement about not taking on contracts, I’m likely just dreaming. On the other hand, the format they’ve come up with has the potential to generate lots of assets. If the office can think outside the box even a little bit, I could see other mediocre teams copying this format.

    137. That’s cool. I’ll go back to admiring and following from afar.

      whoa – easy E…

      you have three choices:
      1). post non-issue basketball type stuff like: the knicks have sucked for a very long time and will most likely suck for a while longer…can’t go wrong there, and, no one at all will ever argue that fact…

      2). talk about food or music…everyone loves food and music…at the end of the day – you can’t tell someone else what to like, so, a very safe area to deal in…

      3). post a basketball opinion (best if you can include some numbers – we love us some numbers here, they don’t really need to mean much…more impressive still if you put a few random acronyms before them and maybe a % afterwards), and be ready to have your thought and opinion tore to shreds…probably get your level of intelligence questioned – repeatedly…

      or – you could take option number 9 and simply ramble on and on with some semi coherency with whatever stray thoughts might be rolling around in your coconut…my personal favorite form of discourse…

    138. you can’t tell someone else what to like, so, a very safe area to deal in…

      Don’t tell me what I can’t do!

    139. You think Payton might go back to his giant hair visor look?

      I always wondered how that could not affect his shot.

    140. Giannis only shot 53% from 0-5 feet at 19 and 64% of his makes were assisted as opposed to only 49% of Knox’s. On their own rookie year forays to the rim, they’re essentially equally effective. ( I started to do the precise math to determine “foray shooting percentage” but got bored. Close enough.) Knox got there on his own more.

      Occam’s Razor here is that Knox (and Giannis before him) were 19 year old kids playing for pride and money against grown-ass men. Pretty much all of this reduces to that.

    141. Kevin Knox doesn’t have much of a chance at being a successful NBA player because he’s not a great NBA athlete, he’s not very skilled for an NBA player, nor is he very smart for an NBA player. He appeared to be below average on all fronts, but we’d all probably look like dumb overmatched novices if we were 19 year old NBA players. He was terrible at everything except shooting 3s, so he has a legit NBA skill to build off of. If he can learn to move the ball on offense or slide his feet defensively we might have a player. I’m not hopeful with Knox, but I do want to see some sort of improvement from him.

      Dennis Smith Jr, however, is actually a respectable jumper (and clear bill of health) away from being an impact player. I liked what I saw from him last season and think he’s a solid bet to see a noticeable jump in his statistics. Mudiay went from worst in the world to NBA rotation player in an off season with Fizdale. I’m hoping DSJr can do something similar.

    142. Let’s face it – the future of this franchise pretty much depends on whether RJ Barrett turns into a legit star.

    143. rookie knox looked nothing like rookie giannis because rookie knox was bad at literally everything save taking shots and hitting threes at a moderately below average rate. rookie giannis sometimes stole the ball, blocked a shot or made a pass. rookie knox looked a hell of a lot more like rookie beasley.

    144. It’s pretty much unconscionable that they put Knox in that position last year. It’s like when a baseball game is lost, the manager is running low on pitchers and the guy who’s getting shelled has to stay out there.

      Giving Knox the ball was good tank for sure.

      Now maybe they’ll have an actual team and run some coherent offense. That might help Kevin.

      Did anyone suck at 19 but get it together to at least be a decent pro?

      Geo, you’re a truly good person. Even Jowles likes you. I’m in your camp as a poster…

    145. It’s pretty much unconscionable that they put Knox in that position last year. It’s like when a baseball game is lost, the manager is running low on pitchers and the guy who’s getting shelled has to stay out there.

      Giving Knox the ball was good tank for sure.

      that’s a really good point dan…the coaching staff/FO is most definitely responsible for some of his abysmal numbers…

    146. The main reason it’s hard for me to see Knox as a long-term NBA rotation player (I don’t really know how to respond to the “superstar” stuff) is because he’d have to adopt a play style totally contrary to the one that got him here.

      He was a big time recruit who went on to lead a powerhouse program in FGA. This got him drafted in the lottery. I will be very pleasantly surprised if any coach can get him to stick to threes and transition baskets, which is pretty much all he has going for him. He’d also have to get good enough at those things to make up for the rebounding deficit he presents at the 4 (his only viable position unless you’re kidding yourself) and defense.

      I think he has more of a chance than Frank because 3PT shooting is a better one-trick pony skill to have than isolation perimeter defense, but ultimately I think both picks take their place in the illustrious history of Knicks cautionary tales.

    147. Coming in late after work on the eval of the front office moves.

      Knowing what I know now, they did a good job (B-). I really like Payton and Randle. They are nice, young players that have already taken steps forward. They need Gibson’s toughness to rub off on Knox. Portis is an awful backup for Mitch and Ellington is a swing man to play when there are injuries. Bullock will be the 6th man. I see roles for everyone. I see strengths and weaknesses. Most important, I see lots of youth with potential. If we can find 3 real players in the group that includes Payton, Barrett, Knox, Randle, Robinson, Smith, Dotson, Trier & Ntilikina (9 players), we’ll be on our way. But we have cap space (11M) and reasonably priced, tradeable assets. If the FO is sharp, they’ll find a way to flip those assets for high draft picks.

    148. Seeing on twitter we are looking at using the 15th roster spot on Lance.

      I mean, we aren’t going to win many games, but I fully expect us to lead the league in veteran leadership.

    149. I was hoping we’d keep one of Kornet or Vonleh. I liked both of their games and their price tags, so it sucks to have let them go in favor of paying Bobby Portis and Taj Gibson 25 million dollars.

    150. Geo, you’re a truly good person. Even Jowles likes you. I’m in your camp as a poster…

      awwwwwww, thank you so much dan…i really appreciate that…although it’s pretty easy to present yourself in any fashion, particularly when you interact solely with the written word – no doubt after a while (years) consistency in those words can paint a pretty decent picture of someone…

      it’s one of the reasons i really enjoy when folks reveal a bit of themselves…

      this is a very unique location, with some pretty cool people whom choose to be here – i really value it…

      it’s funny, after listening to your music (although not a lot of extra space there – i could totally envision hanging out at the northshire bookstore listening to you play :) i kind of feel like i have a much better understanding though of whom you are, which definitely backs up your posts…seems like you have honesty and introspection in spades…

      despite numerous shortcomings in different areas of life – i seem to have been blessed with a good disposition…which may not seem like much, but, surprisingly plays a pretty significant role in quality of life…

      part of that no doubt is having a really good parent (one out of 2 ain’t bad – although my dad definitely taught me some really useful lessons), who just so happened to have dragged me around to just about every single catholic church in existence when i was a kid…after being exposed to all that catholicism at any early age – i actually wake up feeling guilty for no apparent reason some days, which helps keep me in check…

      some near end of the line health stuff simply cemented the belief that when this ride finally comes to an end – i want my ledger sheet to be at the very least balanced when the moment comes to answer for my time here…

    151. How did we miss jared Dudley while still having 10M in cap ?
      FO lost its edge on the2nd day !

    152. The only thing that is clear about Knox is that he was not ready for big minutes and a big offensive role in the NBA. He should have stayed in college. He probably should have played for a better coach in college.

      Was he worse than Miles or Mikal would have been had they come out as freshman and been given the ball like Knox?

      How did Fox play his rookie year? Last I checked, he had 2,000 minutes of suck, and he was older than Knox as a rookie. And his TS% was a whopping .003 higher than Knox.

      Players either develop or they don’t. If they do, their 18-19yo rookie season doesn’t mean shit. Their college years don’t mean shit. The difference between Giannis and Noah Vonleh is that Giannis developed and Vonleh did not. Fox developed, Mudiay did not.

    153. reference our FO burning through the cap like crazy in only a few hours, and, not holding on to some of it to make “wiser” choices – this kind of frantic free agent movement, may just be the new norm in the nba…

      i mean, if bobby portis is your guy – seems you got to make that move early now…

    154. just for you, geo–

      https://soundcloud.com/ricky-ha-1

      the most polished ones were not mastered to be played through iPhone speakers (i.e. brickwall limited to within an inch of its life, thanks Chris Lord Alge!), so headphones are your best bet

      (according to my wife and just about everyone else I know, my singing voice sounds nothing like my speaking voice, so don’t try to read my posts in my castrato register)

    155. Funny how Jowles faves WCS ands Bell are scrounging for minimum salaries, while inefficient chuckers like KP, Murray and Portis are committing grand larceny.

    156. That’s Mudiay, Vonleh and Kornet already picked up by other teams. TGIAGOTOS.

    157. Funny how Jowles faves WCS ands Bell are scrounging for minimum salaries, while inefficient chuckers like KP, Murray and Portis are committing grand larceny.

      I do like a good happy hour food menu

    158. howdy jowles…for a minute there – i was kind of thinking just how lucky you were to find missus jowles…seems like she ain’t done too bad for herself either :)

      are these your words?

    159. Thirteen is a song by the legendary Big Star, a band you should check out if you’ve never heard of them. Long story short, they got fucked by incompetent distribution and label management in the 70s and they had three genius-level Classic Rock albums that have blown minds lucky enough to have stumbled upon them. A little over twelve years ago the overdue buzz became loud enough to get them a trip to SXSW but the lead singer suddenly died shortly before they were set to go. Their albums are legendary. The rest is me

    160. Now I’m not suggesting that Knox will be a star, or even good, or even an NBA player. I’m only saying that he has a good foundation to build on. For example, TGHR said:

      Kevin Knox doesn’t have much of a chance at being a successful NBA player because he’s not a great NBA athlete, he’s not very skilled for an NBA player, nor is he very smart for an NBA player.

      He is actually a reasonably good athlete with great measurables.He is tall, fast, strong, long and quick enough to be a star. He is probably similar athletically to Ben Simmons. His problems are about skill, decision-making and execution.

      tnfh said:

      I will be very pleasantly surprised if any coach can get him to stick to threes and transition baskets, which is pretty much all he has going for him. He’d also have to get good enough at those things to make up for the rebounding deficit he presents at the 4 (his only viable position unless you’re kidding yourself) and defense.

      I disagree with both points. He has a decent FTr going for him so I don’t think a coach should tell him not to attack the basket. I also see him as a viable 3 if he can get better at moving those big feet of his that he hasn’t grown into on the defensive end. It’s too early to give up on his development and to pigeonhole him into a position. The goal should be to make him a big 3 or a stretch 4, depending on matchups. He certainly will not be playing the 4 over Julius Randle. In any case, I don’t think position will ultimately matter much, either he will develop or he won’t.

      One thing is for sure, Fiz shouldn’t force-feed him and give him carte blanche like he did last year.

    161. @cock jowles
      Couldn’t listen to the whole due to low battery on my phone but i heard some pretty Good alternative americana underground vibes with Great feeling ! Keep it goin man !

    162. One thing is for sure, Fiz shouldn’t force-feed him and give him carte blanche like he did last year.

      for a while i just thought the FO/coach was trying to buff his numbers to make themselves and their draft choice look good with all the minutes and free reign…

      i’ll be honest though – the notion that they were really just chasing zion did come up…

    163. okay, let’s get weird mister jowles…

      soooooo, my perception is you’re a pretty high energy level person…quick and sharp mind, competitive nature…a somewhat forceful personality…

      holy fuck – i was not expecting to hear that…still picking up the lyrics, ‘want’ is pretty memorizing though…

      i could not have imagined that kind of slow paced relaxing/mellow control in your voice…it was like listening to one of those: “your in a sunny room, sitting on a comfortable oak floor, staring out of a window on a warm and pleasant day, off in the distance you can hear the waves hitting softly against the sand…and you’re feeling very very relaxed…”

      i don’t really understand the whole pitch and phonation thing…but, sounds do effect folks in different ways…i imagine though being able to bust out some vocals like that would be a pretty darn useful thing to have in your dating toolkit….

      it’s good to be surprising…very well done sir :)

    164. I think people are making too big a deal about signing multiple players with similar skillsets. People seem to worship at Cashman’s altar, he seemed to have committed to too many infielders going in to spring training, in hindsight that worked out pretty well. Players will get injured or not play to past performance or just will end up not meshing in certain lineups. Other players will over perform or break out, and though there are some stats that are predictive, who exactly is going to make a jump is largely unknowable. The seemingly redundant guys will work themselves out. As for “blocking” the young guys, if DEANDRE JORDAN and Kanter didn’t stop Mitch from getting minutes I’m not worried about Bobby portis on a 1+1. I like Portis getting minutes at the 4 next to Mitch and getting some stretch 5 minutes next to Gibson. I think Fiz can figure out a fit with these players and give the young guys minutes if they’re improving and doing productive things. At the end of the day these are 1+1 contracts. You get to see if anyone is a good fit and you own any upside improvement with negligible downside. If you are Perry and you see something in these players, it makes sense to go for it. Yes this is not a championship team, but you get to see if any of these guys can be pieces on a championship team, and you have the ability to keep them after bringing in your >max value star.

      Also, I think being on a team that’s playing to win will be good for development. Especially when my main worry for RJ (and Knox if he is developable) is that they are prone to be hero ball chuckers. They are both young and hopefully coachable, and I hope Fiz is the man to get them to buy in to adapting their games to becoming more productive. I think that Fizdale’s job becomes much easier if there is a legitimate offense in place with players getting high percentage shots that remove the need for a “hero” and prioritize running the offense smoothly.

    165. You can bench Knox and Frank without worrying. Both Frank and Knox will improve just by aging and playing here and there. Send them to the G-League till they’re 23 or so.

    166. @177

      Ok, so here I’ll be the eye test guy. Do you really, really see anything of Ben Simmons’ explosiveness and strength on Knox? Simmons regularly blows past defenders or straight overpowers them to get to the rim consistently, even when he’s being guarded 5 feet away because he doesn’t have a jumper. I know Knox can still develop physically, but he just doesn’t seem on the same level or really close to it.

    167. Sure seems like a lot of value deals being signed today. If only we ‘d had some cap space this offseason….

    168. To ‘distract’ and ‘calm?’the angry knicks fanbase for losing/letting go KD’s trio …

      the angry knicks owner for

      FTFY. Always good to remember the Knicks worst enemy is Dolan.

    169. I’ m not saying this FO got the best guys available or got the best deals on an AAV to VORP level. But I think the star players not signing here was largely beyond the FO’s control, the great deals (Noel, WCS, etc.) probably wouldn’t sign here on those deals for multiple reasons, and the renting cap space options might not have been available to the Knicks or for whatever reason were not as compelling as the moves they chose to make instead. I think the upside of lottery protected first rounders at indeterminate future draft class that will most likely be a late pick is comparable to the upside of looking at how these players perform and having options to keep them around if there is a fit or trading them if their value is high and suitors come calling. As I outlined earlier, I think having a functional team is a value add in itself. Gibson and Ellington might not seem to be the most natural fits as they are at the end of their prime years, but both have been relatively productive the last two years relative to their careers so hopefully they’ve figured something out that can serve as an example to the kids. Also they project to be positive players next year, and if not we can walk away. If the plan is to be functional, then players who can eat minutes with respectable production if necessary but also step back if younger players step up are a very helpful piece in keeping the plan on track and the players invested in it.

    170. By the way, Jeremy Lin is still available… I know he’s done and all, but they could bring him as a mentor and it could be an actual feel good moment.

    171. and his hair was perfect

      seriously, that dude has got some superior hair…

      I was trying to find the total number of available free agents this off season, but, no luck…seems like a lot are already gone though…free agency feels different this year…

      the world moves fast these days, and, now so does nba free agency…

    172. I listened to the (very likable) Jowles’ music and I don’t think I know anything about life anymore

      This blog is David Lynch’s idea of heaven

    173. Congrats, Jowles, very impressive work. I’m a dabbler in acoustic guitar and singing typical covers…James Taylor, Eagles, etc. and always wanted to try writing/performing some original stuff. I got a Martin D35 for my 40th birthday but have never done it justice. Now my voice is mostly shot, but maybe when I retire I’ll focus more and get something written by channelling my pain as a lifelong Knicks (and Mets and Jets) fan.

    174. @177 I don’t think “athleticism” in the raw sense separates Simmons from Knox. It’s more of a skill/coordination thing. Simmons has what Scalabrini called “elite decision-making” skills. Unfortunately, he was talking about Julius Randle and describing what he was missing that keeps him from being a true star.

      Maybe a good analogous comparison is Kanter vs. Jokic. Kanter has just as much raw athleticism but he is playing checkers while Jokic is playing 3-D chess.

    175. Guys like Vonleh, Kornet and Mudiay will always be available. Portis is a gross overpay and a mistake, no defending that move…seems like we once again bid against ourselves. Payton and Randle are fair market value deals when considering the premium you pay for a team option.

      Gibson, Ellington and Bullock are all unheralded lunch-pail guys who had to bust their asses to become pro’s pros, so they are fine on 1+1 culture-building deals. If the goal is to develop the young guys to see what you have , none of these guys will get in the way. They might actually help bring out the best in Payton, Randle and Portis as well.

      Overall, I think this is going to be a very fun, scrappy young team to watch.

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