Knicks Morning News (2016.07.22)

  • [NYTimes] N.B.A. to Move All-Star Game From North Carolina
    (Friday, July 22, 2016 1:18:40 AM)

    The league’s move came as a reaction to state legislation perceived as being hostile to gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender people.

  • [NYTimes] Players Criticize W.N.B.A. For Fines Over Shirts Worn to Underscore Shootings
    (Friday, July 22, 2016 12:21:22 AM)

    Three teams were fined $5,000 and each player was fined $500 for wearing T-shirts intended to raise awareness in the aftermath of recent shootings by and of the police.

  • [NYTimes] NBA MVP Curry Regrets Missing Rio Games
    (Friday, July 22, 2016 4:36:27 AM)

    Two-time NBA MVP Stephen Curry said the injuries he suffered during the playoffs forced him to pull out of the Rio Olympics, a decision that still does not sit well with him.

  • [NYTimes] NBA Pulls All-Star Game From Charlotte Over Transgender Law
    (Thursday, July 21, 2016 11:24:31 PM)

    The NBA is moving its 2017 All-Star Game out of Charlotte, North Carolina, given its objections to a state law decried as discriminatory against the lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender community, the league on Thursday.

  • [NYTimes] WNBA Fines 3 Teams, Players for Shirts in Wake of Shootings
    (Thursday, July 21, 2016 6:49:35 PM)

    Social activism is coming at a cost for WNBA players.

  • [SNY Knicks] NBA moves All-Star Game out of Charlotte due to anti-LGBT law
    (Thursday, July 21, 2016 6:30:28 PM)

    The NBA announced on Thursday that the 2017 All-Star Game will be moved from North Carolina due to the state’s passing of HB2

  • [SNY Knicks] Did the Knicks make the right head coaching choice?
    (Thursday, July 21, 2016 2:30:12 PM)

    Phil Jackson and the Knicks hired Jeff Hornacek to be the team’s new head coach, but was it the right move?

  • [SNY Knicks] Report: Wade could have been a Knick
    (Thursday, July 21, 2016 12:33:12 PM)

    Carmelo Anthony told reporters in Las Vegas that the Knicks indeed had the chance to add Dwyane Wade to their roster during the NBA free agent frenzy period earlier this month.

  • [NYDN] Knicks’ Carmelo Anthony defends WNBA players for T-shirts
    (Thursday, July 21, 2016 7:45:22 PM)

    WNBA players can’t understand why the league isn’t on board with their activism. And they have an advocate in Knicks star Carmelo Anthony.

  • [NYPost] Carmelo Anthony blasts WNBA for suppressing protest
    (Thursday, July 21, 2016 2:22:36 PM)

    LAS VEGAS — Carmelo Anthony is on a roll. While announcing his Olympic-team “town hall meeting” he is staging in Los Angeles will be held Monday, Anthony continued his activist role regarding “Black Lives Matter” issues when he criticized the fines levied against politically minded WNBA players. The NBA-run league has fined the Liberty, the…

  • [NYPost] Derrick Rose’s Knicks optimism is out of control
    (Thursday, July 21, 2016 8:28:45 AM)

    Derrick Rose isn’t saying the Knicks can go 82-0. But the point guard’s rosy view of the new-look roster is he’s now part of a team equipped to go toe to toe with any opponent in the NBA. “I just love the group,” Rose told Slam Magazine. “I think we have a chance to win every game, and…

  • [ESPN] Friday’s Knicks Links: Carmelo Anthony blasts WNBA for fining players
    (Friday, July 22, 2016 5:30:41 AM)

    Friday’s Knicks Links: Carmelo Anthony blasts WNBA for fining players

  • [ESPN] Melo planning meeting to address police violence
    (Friday, July 22, 2016 1:19:01 AM)

    Melo planning meeting to address police violence

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    Mike Kurylo

    Mike Kurylo is the founder and editor of KnickerBlogger.net. His book on the 2012 Knicks, "We’ll Always Have Linsanity," is on sale now. Follow him on twitter (@KnickerBlogger).

    135 thoughts to “Knicks Morning News (2016.07.22)”

    1. Happy to see the NBA pulling the all star game out of Charlotte. Pat Mccrory and the joke that is the North Carolina state congress are political cancers and deserve to be treated as such

      Simultaneously disappointed by the NBA what with the WNBA penalizing legitimate protest on the basis of ticky tacky jersey regulations. It’s the NBA equivalent of broken windows policing, heh.

      Melo still doing his activism thing and I’m super proud to have him on my basketball team.

    2. +1 on all the points. I am always wary of entering into politics here because this place is an escape from all that crap. But the NBA is and has been a leader in diversity and inclusion and for that I praise them. They dropped the ball with the WNBA fines. What they did there was stomp on freedom of speech.

    3. A very slippery slope, as they say. Is the NBA ready to take a stance on China’s human rights violations? I bet not.

      Dangerous territory.

    4. I totally agree that nothing belongs on uniforms unless previously approved by the league. The fines are perfectly justified. If nothing is done, how would the WNBA prevent players from becoming running posters for all sorts of political, moral and religoius agendas?

      What if a group of Christian players decided to wear messages against abortion?

      I say leave non-sports issues outside sports.

    5. Well given that the NBA has no qualms already with setting hypocritical double standards, I think it’s totally reasonable for them to selectively suspend jersey regulations when the causes are worthy.

      Furthermore, all kinds of symbols and icons are regularly placed on jerseys in other sports–politics and activism are something you can never get away from, and we shouldn’t act as if they ought to be isolated from sports.

      If players want to protest Chinese human rights violations, more power to them. So long as they’re not uttering hate speech, pre game practice jerseys ought to be fair game for expressions of politics.

    6. They’re high. I mean, with these teams right now, they’re saying us and Golden State are the super teams, and they’re trying not to build that many super teams, and Adam Silver came out with the statement and this and that.

      -Derrick Rose speaking about his expectations for the upcoming season.

      @5- I hear you. Since I think it’s a free speech issue, anti-abortion and any message shouldn’t be penalized. The topic doesn’t matter, free-speech does.

    7. Well let’s see, super team, do we meet any of the qualifications?

      Former scoring champion in his prime: check
      Former MVP PG at age 27: check
      Former DPOY at age 31: check
      Runner-up ROY on way to HOF career: check
      3 and D specialist: check
      6MOY candidate: check
      Swiss army knife SF: check
      Under-the-radar Euro-stashes: check
      Undrafted Hornacek clone: check

      Knicks in the finals? TBD

    8. Quite honestly, as a sports fan, I want to watch the sports performances. I’m not interested in what Melo thinks of social issues, the same way I’m not interested in watching Hillary Clinton play basketball.

      Sports enjoyment should be a refuge from the daily reality. YMMV.

    9. I understand why people are happy that the NBA & players are taking a stand on important social, economic, and other issues etc.. I also understand that what I am about to say is likely to get either a neutral or negative response, but I really think it needs to be said.

      Some of these issues are much more complex than the WILDLY BIASED and AGENDA BASED mainstream media lets on. To be clear, I’m talking about both sides of the media. Neither side is worth a damn. The average American is borderline brain dead on a lot of this stuff even if they are intrinsically very bright and putting a lot of energy into keeping on top of the news. They are in a constant state of being spoon fed misleading, spun, and flat out inaccurate data and stats.

      Do we really need basketball players (many of whom can’t even learn the triangle) being the driving force behind change?

      Do you think any of these guys actually understands the complexities of police work and the court system, the reasons so many of our children grow up in terrible conditions and poverty, the reasons people are buying so many guns in recent years, the actual math and economics behind immigration both short term and long term etc..?

      Do you think any of them has actually looked the long term fiscal projections for our country, the Federal Reserve’s balance sheet, and similar data for Europe, Japan, China and elsewhere?

      I understand their concern and desire to want to make a difference, but these are not the guys to do it. They are professional basketball players. That’s their expertise. If you want to say “I wish this was a better world”, I’m all for it. If you think they understand what the hell is actually going on and why, you are deluding yourself. I’ve been obsessed with some of the fiscal, monetary, and economics issues of this world for the last 30 years and I’m probably only half way there. So I know that I am brain dead on some of this stuff. I also know that NBA…

    10. Do we really need basketball players (many of whom can’t even learn the triangle) being the driving force behind change?

      Do you think any of these guys actually understands the complexities of police work and the court system, the reasons so many of our children grow up in terrible conditions and poverty, the reasons people are buying so many guns in recent years, the actual math and economics behind immigration both short term and long term etc..?

      Most people don’t understand this. A lot of elected officials don’t understand all of this. By your logic nobody should do a damn thing until they understand every single little intricacy of the issue. Also making a stand against certain ridiculous things doesn’t mean the athletes are acting like they have the solutions to solve the problems. They’re attempting to raise awareness about an issue and in Melo’s case specifically looking to get people from different perspectives to engage in dialogue. That seems plenty more productive than what most people seem to be doing.

      Do you think any of them has actually looked the long term fiscal projections for our country, the Federal Reserve’s balance sheet, and similar data for Europe, Japan, China and elsewhere?

      What the fuck does the Federal Reserve balance sheet have to do with athletes taking a stand against the prevalence of gun violence in this country and excessive use of deadly force by police? You realize that a very small percentage of the world population understands these things? By your logic they should be the only ones to voice their opinions on the matter.

    11. @13 – and this thread will soon become a perfect example of why non-sports, controversial topics are best left out of sports!

    12. Are we just gonna skip over the part where DRose heard Adam Silver talk down on super teams and thought he was complaining about the Knicks?

    13. I love the spirit but even in DRose returns to MVP form, Noah plays his best year, AND KP takes a big step forward, we’re still a significant step below the Warriors.

    14. I skip over 95% of what Rose says. He’s not the sharpest tool in the shed, but I like his rather oblivious confidence!

    15. I would find Rose’s outrageous overconfidence funnier if the part where he thinks he’s still really good wasn’t such a big reason why he’s so bad. He still has a few elite skills but he has no idea what his weaknesses are. He’s going to shoot us out of a lot of games next year.

    16. @13

      The point was not the Federal Reserve or any of the specific things I listed. The point is that even the most dedicated of people usually have no idea whatsoever what they are talking about on any issue. They are at best misinformed because they spend all their time watching and reading biased agenda based sources of information. Until you rise ABOVE the so called “experts” you are clueless. I’ve spent years building basketball spreadsheets, reading books, analyzing all the player value systems, gambling on the games with some success, but quite frankly I’m still an idiot. There’s an endless stream of things I know I do no know.

      If you want to say “gun violence is bad” and we need to solve this problem, I’m all for it. But I’m pretty sure every American already knows that. If you think NBA players are in an intellectual position to understand what’s actually going on and why and then to propose solutions that will work, you are deluding yourself.

    17. @18 – I didn’t ignore it. Did you see post #7?

      I didn’t comment on it but I think it’s funny. While the vast majority of us think the moves were really, really bad (I’m not one of them), I think it’s interesting to hear what the players think. The fact that he can even imagine that is great for the Knicks going forward. We’re not going to be hoarding top-5 draft picks for the next 5 years, so we’ll need to depend on free agency. I’m hoping DRose closer to correct than the Knickblogger consensus. If we win 45+ games there’ll be ballers like CP3 or Westbrook that’ll think that they can put this team over the top. I am optimistic.

      @22 –

      He’s going to shoot us out of a lot of games next year.

      Yesterday I posted his month-by-month FG% from last year. It’s apparent, by looking at that, that his stats were dragged down by his double-vision in the 2015 half.

    18. If you think NBA players are in an intellectual position to understand what’s actually going on and why and then to propose solutions that will work, you are deluding yourself.

      No, I don’t think they are in a position to propose solutions but that has nothing to do with them voicing their displeasure with certain current events and situations in this country. None of them are saying “LOOK THIS IS THE ANSWER”. They’re saying that something is wrong, we want to make sure our opinion on this is heard and again in Melo’s case he’s not saying he has the answers but that he wants people from various perspectives to discuss the issues and dialogue. If you want to nitpick over whether he should do that or not go for it. I find it a ridiculous thing to get on your high horse about.

    19. @5- I hear you. Since I think it’s a free speech issue, anti-abortion and any message shouldn’t be penalized. The topic doesn’t matter, free-speech does.

      The 1st Amendment guarantees protection from government prosecution for one’s expression, not the ability to say or wear whatever you want at your place of business.

      While I may agree with the political sentiment expressed by the WNBA players, they have no right to “free speech” because the WNBA is a private enterprise. The only thing we can debate is whether the WNBA should bar its players — predominantly black — from expressing support for a cause that directly affects their lives, and any prescriptive statement like it is bound by personal beliefs and relativistic assumptions.

    20. The idea that athletes shouldn’t speak out about issues they feel strongly about because they aren’t familiar with every little nuance involved is patently ridiculous at best, and evokes racist tropes at worst. Furthermore, I certainly don’t see Melo, or the WNBA players in question, claiming to have every answer or solution to the legitimate issues they’re spreading awareness about.

      Did anyone get this mad when Spencer Hawes said he had Obama toilet paper?

    21. The NBA absolutely does have to fine its athletes and other people they employ for taking political stances in the workplace. What happens if Gordon Hayward comes to a game wearing a Blue Lives Matter T Shirt and Derrick Favors has on a Black Lives Matter T Shirt What happens if LeBron James wears a “Make America Great Again” hat on election night?

      Everybody has a right to their political views, but there is a time and place for everything. That time and place is not on a basketball court. Now what the NFL does is they have a week where they allow players to raise awareness for whatever it is they stand for by wearing a different color cleat I believe. Brandon Marshall of the Jets wears lime green for mental health awareness for example. It would be nice for the NBA to give players a game or a week to wear a colored sneaker or something to promote their causes while keeping the sponsors happy.

      I think a lot of the fining has to do with Adidas’ strict uniform policy. They have exclusive uniform rights in the WNBA and it goes so far that any athlete without a sneaker sponsorship has to cover their non adidas logos. Wearing non adidas t shirts to promote activism is something that violates their contract.

    22. They are professional basketball players. That’s their expertise. If you want to say “I wish this was a better world”, I’m all for it. If you think they understand what the hell is actually going on and why, you are deluding yourself.

      I think that it is you who are deluding yourself if you think “basketball expert” Derrick Rose understands what the hell is going on when it comes to basketball.

    23. And you gotta like Derrick Rose’s confidence. Does anybody remember the “Why Not” speech he gave about winning the MVP award? Nobody believed he had a shot that year and then he went out and won an MVP. He didn’t really deserve it, but he put himself in the running for one and was essentially the entire offense on a 62 win Bulls team. With Rose on court they were a top 10 offense, and with him off court they had the league worst ORtg.

      And I would argue that the absolute best case Knicks (as in MVP level D Rose, DPOY Noah, last year’s Melo, and a greatly improved KP) would be a top five offense and defense in the league. That team is very unlikely to come around, but could you imagine? 22, 4, and 8 from Rose, 23, 7, and 5 from Melo, 12, 13, 4 and 2 blocks from Noah, and 19, 11, 2, and 2 blocks from KP? And then you have Courtney Lee, Brandon Jennings, Lance Thomas, Kyle O’Quinn, and Billy to round out your top 9? The Knicks could be a super team.

      Other developments from that article:

      Rose said Hornacek spoke to him about altering the triangle to run a lot more P&R sets. I think this qualifies as good news. Steve Kerr and Tom Thibodeau run variations of the triangle with great success. When the Warriors aren’t playing like idiots their offense is unbelievably pretty.

      Rose also said he expects to play in two guard sets with Jennings on the ball. Rose as a cutter to the basket sounds great, but I don’t like the prospect of those two defensively…or offensively considering their efficiencies.

      Derrick Rose has been working out 6 days a week for a few months now. He’s been working on his mid range game (boo), but hopefully he’a only shooting those when defenses go under the screen in P&R play.

    24. And try not to be so condescending when it comes to Derrick Rose’s knowledge of basketball. The man has every counter move in the book, great court vision, and he won an MVP while spearheading the offense of a 62 win Bulls team at age 22. On court I am certain he knows a lot of basketball even if he can’t finish the way he used to.

    25. and he won an MVP while spearheading the offense of a 62 win Bulls team at age 22.

      A whopping #11 in team ORtg that year! What a guy!

    26. I dunno, the Knicks have three players, average age of only 30, with a combined 16x All-Star appearances, one MVP, one DPOY and a scoring championship. They also have the runner-up ROY, and a mix of young prospects and solid veterans rounding out the rotation. Derrick Rose’s confidence is obviously a little over the top (which puts him in the company of pretty much every elite athlete) but it’s not hard to see why he and other NBA players could think this team could be pretty damn good.

      (And no, this is not an invitation to recount ad nauseum all the reasons why everyone here is sure they will suck.)

    27. Everybody has a right to their political views, but there is a time and place for everything. That time and place is not on a basketball court.

      Well said.

      Not to mention the rights of every *paying* fan to enjoy a show without issues or statements that upset him/her.

      Respect and consideration go both ways.

    28. @32 +1. I made fun of DRose comment because I thought it was funny that he grouped the Knicks and Warriors together as the two super teams. To mock him for his knowledge of basketball is insane. The guy has been playing the game for his entire life. He might not know how to build a team, and he might have an overinflated view of his skills at this point in his career, but you don’t put up 24 and 7 on a .550 TS% with a 32% USG in your THIRD year in the league if you don’t know something about basketball. I don’t care how talented you are.

    29. what we need from rose is for him to transform his game… he needs to shoot better from 3 and he needs to handle and distribute better….

      i don’t think at this stage he can handle high usage anymore from an efficiency standpoint…. but i think cutting his usg down could make him more efficient…. that would mean for him to take a step back which from the sound of things i don’t think is going to happen…

    30. A whopping #11 in team ORtg that year! What a guy!

      Yeah, shocking how dumb everyone is about that.

    31. Yeah a whopping #11 in ORtg with such offensive forces as Luol Deng, Joakim, Ronnie Brewer, and Carlos Boozer. He was basically their entire offense.

    32. SJK, chill, if Jowles said Rose was the Bull’s 11th best player on offense that year, it must be true. If you don’t believe me, just ask him.

    33. The idea that athletes shouldn’t speak out about issues they feel strongly about because they aren’t familiar with every little nuance involved is patently ridiculous at best, and evokes racist tropes at worst.

      This.

      Do we really need basketball players (many of whom can’t even learn the triangle) being the driving force behind change?

      Not this.

      Is there really any nuance about unarmed black men lying on the ground with their hands up being shot by police? Is that “too complex” for athletes to understand? Is there really any reason whatsoever that athletes can’t highlight an aspect of their personal experience simply to raise awareness?

      For those who are too “blinded” or “brain dead” because of the mainstream media’s poor reporting, the answer to these should-be rhetorical questions is “No.” If you’re from a community where you are routinely harassed even if you’re rich (Sefalosha), if your life is in danger simply because of the color of your skin, if the only real difference between what’s happening now and what has been happening for decades is the development of technology to record it and of social networks to broadcast it, then drawing attention to the problem is absolutely without ambiguity.

      The WNBA is a business and has a legal right to do what they did. Whether they should have done it is another question entirely.

    34. A whopping #11 in team ORtg that year! What a guy!

      As Iverson’s led 76ers, having a guy that can post an absurdly high usage allows to fill the rest of the team with defensive stalwarts. If you ask a low usage player to do more than he can, it leads to a really bad marginal efficiency on the increased shots, while TOs skyrocket. It is unlikely to see a coach that asks his players to more than they can, but we have seen it with Drummond this last two years, or Novak when he faced a tougher defense.

    35. Great rhetorical questions of our time:

      If a tree falls in the forest but nobody is there to hear it, does it make a sound?

      If an NBA team wins 62 games but the PG is only 11th in ORtg, does anyone give a crap?

      :-)

    36. As I like to point out the stability of PER vs WP48, Drummond is a nice example.

      PER: 21.6, 22.6, 21.4, 21.2

      PER judges that Drummond has always been the same player, a very good player. It gives almost the same value when he was shooting 60%TS, and when he was shooting 50%TS. His role in the team changed a lot, but the player is the same.

      WP48: .329, .348, .239, .234

      WP48 judges that Drummond was the 2nd best player in the league in 2013-14, only behind Chris Paul. But then he lost 1/3 of his rating and then was merely ‘very good’. WP48 thinks that something happened with Drummond, but in truth, SVG happened, nothing else.

      I find more useful a stat that tells us about the players, than a stat that tells us about his coach/role/etc.

    37. I read Jowles’ comment to mean the Bulls were 11th in the NBA in ORtg that year (which they were). Rose finished 3rd on the team in ORtg behind Noah and Korver in 10-11.

    38. and he won an MVP while spearheading the offense of a 62 win Bulls team at age 22.

      A whopping #11 in team ORtg that year! What a guy!

      You missed this part?

      With Rose on court they were a top 10 offense, and with him off court they had the league worst ORtg.

      There’s honestly nothing lamer than people harping on Derrick Rose’s MVP… as if he wasn’t at worst a top 2-3 player that season. He should be ashamed.

    39. @34 – if they are good, why are they so bad? Just seriously kidding…

      They’re neither good nor bad. They (this Knicks team) haven’t played a single game yet. My point is that it’s actually pretty easy to see the on-paper reasons why many outside the confines of KnickerBummer are actually optimistic about this team. And the athletes themselves, of all people, are going to have confidence in themselves. Frankly I wouldn’t have it any other way.

    40. @42 – Rama

      The WNBA is a business and has a legal right to do what they did. Whether they should have done it is another question entirely.

      Yep. You took the words out of my mouth. That’s what I meant about free speech. Sure, the WNBA has the right to do what they did. They just shouldn’t have.

      @40 – SJK

      Yeah a whopping #11 in ORtg with such offensive forces as Luol Deng, Joakim, Ronnie Brewer, and Carlos Boozer. He was basically their entire offense.

      Here is another example of why statistics cannot be looked at in a vacuum. They always need to be looked at within context. And adding to your point, when you’re the entire offense, the defense has to key on you which will have a negative impact on statistics.

    41. The only reason to be optimistic about Rose’s MVP year is that we have the most valuable player from that very good Bulls team. It’s just that he’s our new C, not our new PG

    42. @49

      Rose was the entire offense?!?!!? What in the ever loving fuck are you talking about?

      No. Rose scored the most points on the Bulls. I know it’s hard to believe, but there were other players on the Bulls who could shoot the ball.

      Noah, Korver, and Bogans all had higher TS% than Rose’s .550. Deng had a .549 TS% and Boozer was at .542. Those are hardly players with zero offensive game. Deng also posted the exact same TS% last year, but I’m pretty sure Derrick Rose wasn’t setting up his scoring opportunities in Miami. Not sure, but pretty sure.

      I am not arguing that he had a bad season, but he is easily the worst MVP selection since Steve Nash. He was a human highlight reel who was the worst defender on the league’s best defense.

    43. Look at the on court ORTG numbers and the off court ORTG numbers for Derrick Rose. The Bulls offense did its best with Rose on the court that year at a 107.5 and then with him off the court it fell to 98.9.

      Does “Most Valuable Player” mean “Player with Worst Backup Player to Inflate His On/Off Court Numbers?”

    44. Some pretty good video and assessment of Kuzminskas.

      From the videos I noticed a few things:
      – He has a good rebounding sense and just seems to be there at the right time.
      – His ability to find team mates and pass the ball is wonderful.
      – He runs pick-n-roll and pick-n-pops really well.
      – He’ll have to learn not to hang on the rim when he dunks. He likes to dunk.

      From an offensive point of view, he looks really good. You rarely see defense on highlight videos. That’s what we’ll need to see from him. He’s got the physical tools but does he use them on defense?

    45. Does “Most Valuable Player” mean “Player with Worst Backup Player to Inflate His On/Off Court Numbers?”

      Kind of. If your backup is complete ass then you being really good makes you more valuable to your team than say Lebron James who could sit and have the luxury of Wade and Bosh pick up the offensive slack. I don’t think Rose should have won that year either, but without Rose on the floor that Bulls team was considerably worse.

    46. But Noah missed 34 games the year the Bulls won 62 games. It’s not as simple as Noah was the most valuable player or Rose was the entire offense. And honestly, when LeBron shut down Rose the Bulls got destroyed in that ECFs so there is validity to why people say the Bulls’ offense was only Rose. There was nobody to pick up for him when Miami’s game plan was to shut Rose down and let Deng, Boozer, and Noah try (and fail) to beat you.

      Rose was really good that year, and all of his value was on the offensive end of the court. He was a huge part of what they did offensively and that’s backed up by the fact that the Bulls never sniffed 60 after his injury in the lockout year despite receiving a super Joakim Noah in 2014 and a super Jimmy Butler in 2015. I’m not saying that Rose is that player today, but you can’t deny the size of his impact he had in 2011 and 2012.

    47. Wait, you’re right. CJ Watson’s .466 TS% on a 21.4 USG is probably why the Bulls offense struggled so badly without Rose and why Rose ended up playing 3000+ minutes that year. He gave them 13 and 6 per 36 minutes but damn.

    48. And try not to be so condescending when it comes to Derrick Rose’s knowledge of basketball.

      Sorry, but that quote by Rose is ridiculous. “They’re saying us and Golden State are the superteams.”

      Now I know who’s been posting here under the name reub for the past month.

    49. Wait, you’re right. CJ Watson’s .466 TS% on a 21.4 USG is probably why the Bulls offense struggled so badly without Rose and why Rose ended up playing 3000+ minutes that year. He gave them 13 and 6 per 36 minutes but damn.

      And that makes Derrick Rose more valuable to the team, sure, but it doesn’t make him the league’s best player.

      Rose added value, but with a Ray Felton or Brandon Jennings, that team still wins 50+ because of the strength of their defense. Rose was the benefactor of great team play, like many a baseball MVP.

    50. @49

      Rose was the entire offense?!?!!? What in the ever loving fuck are you talking about?

      No. Rose scored the most points on the Bulls. I know it’s hard to believe, but there were other players on the Bulls who could shoot the ball.

      Noah, Korver, and Bogans all had higher TS% than Rose’s .550. Deng had a .549 TS% and Boozer was at .542. Those are hardly players with zero offensive game. Deng also posted the exact same TS% last year, but I’m pretty sure Derrick Rose wasn’t setting up his scoring opportunities in Miami. Not sure, but pretty sure.

      You’re taking my comment WAY to literally. I don’t actually mean that Rose scored or set up every single basket that was scored during the entire season. I mean that if you take him off that team, they suck offensively, which is backed up by the on/off numbers cited above.

      Congrats for realizing that Rose didn’t play for the Heat last year. You may, however, remember some other guys on their team like you’re fave Hassan Whiteside or a guy named Dwyane Wade or Goran Dragic, all of whom were big parts of that offense and freed Deng up to get good shots.

      Anyway, no one is even arguing that Rose was the best player in the league last year, but thank you for going out of your way to prove that he wasn’t. This all started when Massive and I said that it’s insane to criticize Rose’s knowledge of basketball when he has shown that he is really good at basketball, or at least was before he got hurt.

    51. The idea that athletes shouldn’t speak out about issues they feel strongly about because they aren’t familiar with every little nuance involved is patently ridiculous at best, and evokes racist tropes at worst.

      Also 100% agree with this.

      On a human level, my respect for Melo has grown dramatically the past month. I’ve never been prouder that he’s in a Knick uniform.

    52. Let me just say this before I move on to Knickery..
      The world has officially gone ape shit bananas. It’s is a tragic thing to feel the need to say “(insert target here) lives matter”. It is even more tragic to see a group of athletes get fined for making a statement on such a horrible state of society, a broken part that needs to be fixed.

      Now on to NYK

      I, for one, appreciate Derrick Rose’s enthusiasm. Maybe it’s been because of the injuries, but his body language and vocal tone the past few years have reeked of ambivalence. Or maybe it was because of Butler’s ascension and rumored deteriorating relationship, I don’t know. Don’t care. If he’s healthy and genuinely likes the guys he’s in the foxhole with, that bodes well for our Knicks. You combined that with Melo’s new (for him) brand of leadership, KP’s expected improvement, and a hopefully more free flowing offense, you can’t help but be optimistic. Even if it’s cautiously optimistic because of health concerns.

    53. @61 +1 about being proud of Carmelo. Here’s a quote from him on the matter from the NY Post:

      “A bunch of teams did it,” Anthony said. “Everyone has their own freedom of speech if they decide to use the platform. I don’t see no reason for anybody to get fined. We did it [3?¹/? years ago after the Trayvon Martin shooting]. The NBA did it. The NBA was very supportive. I don’t see any difference in this matter. Right now the players have a very strong stance in what they believe in right now. I don’t think anyone should be fighting that at this moment.”

    54. I, for one, appreciate Derrick Rose’s enthusiasm.

      Actually, I’m with the poster who feels that his wild self-confidence is part of the problem. If you have a realistic understanding of your own limitations, you can make more with what you have and minimize what you don’t. If you think you are amazing, you end up chucking a lot of shots, and if you do so at poor efficiency, you hurt your team.

      But it’s a challenge, because I think part of what makes elite performers in any medium elite is that wild self-confidence. Even when you’re great, there are plenty of people to say you aren’t, and perseverance comes from continuing to believe they are wrong and you are right. I don’t think Rose was the real MVP in the year he won it, but he did play well, and how much of his good performance was due to him feeling he could be the MVP?

      It makes me think again of what an extraordinary player Tim Duncan was, who had the self-confidence to push himself to all-time great status while remaining humble and centered enough to recognize his limitations and play to his strengths. He was far from the most physically gifted player ever, but he had to be one of the smartest.

    55. You’re taking my comment WAY to literally. I don’t actually mean that Rose scored or set up every single basket that was scored during the entire season. I mean that if you take him off that team, they suck offensively, which is backed up by the on/off numbers cited above.

      Congrats for realizing that Rose didn’t play for the Heat last year. You may, however, remember some other guys on their team like you’re fave Hassan Whiteside or a guy named Dwyane Wade or Goran Dragic, all of whom were big parts of that offense and freed Deng up to get good shots.

      The following year, Rose played only 1375 minutes (down from 3026) and the Bulls were 5th in ORtg (dropping by 0.9 pts/100). Where he had scored ~25% of the Bulls’ points the previous year, he scored 14% of their points. Interestingly, their AST% went up and their ORB% went way up (+17% YOY).

      Boozer, Rose, Deng, Noah, and Korver accounted for their top 5 scorers.

      They fell off a cliff in 2012-13, but they lost Korver (.600 TS%) in addition to Rose, so it’s harder to figure out where that ORtg dropoff came from.

    56. But it’s a challenge, because I think part of what makes elite performers in any medium elite is that wild self-confidence. Even when you’re great, there are plenty of people to say you aren’t, and perseverance comes from continuing to believe they are wrong and you are right. I don’t think Rose was the real MVP in the year he won it, but he did play well, and how much of his good performance was due to him feeling he could be the MVP?

      It makes me think again of what an extraordinary player Tim Duncan was, who had the self-confidence to push himself to all-time great status while remaining humble and centered enough to recognize his limitations and play to his strengths.

      Agreed. Let’s be honest here. In American sports, particularly football and basketball, you’re dealing with by and large “urban” kids who we’re essentially told or treated like they ain’t shit. Then they get in these youth leagues, AAU, HS ball and suddenly EVERYONE loves them and are telling them how great they are. Without a strong support system at home, those kids get lost in the hype, so to speak. It’s definitely a fine line to walk because you want them to have that belief in themselves so that they can become elite. Unfortunately, many of those kids end up thinking they’re bulletproof when they’re only bullet-resistant. Derrick Rose needs that confidence to play at his MVP season level, but he shouldn’t forget that he’s only bullet-resistant.

    57. Rose added value, but with a Ray Felton or Brandon Jennings, that team still wins 50+ because of the strength of their defense. Rose was the benefactor of great team play, like many a baseball MVP.

      you is crazy

    58. Still trying to figure out how they went 50-16 the following year with him playing 1700 fewer minutes. Can you figure that one out?

    59. I have a hard time taking a lot out of the lockout year because there were so many weird things that happened. Like, we finished 5th in DRtg and were good defensively even when Melo and STAT played together.

      It’s a good question though.

    60. Also they went 32-7 that year with Rose and only 18-9 without him. He clearly was still a major reason why they won 50 games.

    61. Honestly think it had more to do with Fields being a good wing defender and Shump being way better on that end before injuries. Chandler was still on the squad the following 2 years and we never came close to replicating that type of defense.

    62. Weirdly, the Bulls won a game in which he shot 1-13 for 2 points, and also a game in which he played 10 minutes and scored 4 points on 3 FGA. They also won games in which he went 3-11 and 5-16, which I could interpret as winning “despite” Rose, not “because” of him.

      Against LAC on 12/30/2011, he scored 29 points on ~18 TSA with 16 AST and 8 REB. This is a great game. But if you’re going to give him credit for that win, you also have to credit him with a significant portion of the loss four days earlier, when he scored 13 points on 19 TSA for a putrid Game Score of 6.0 — and Game Score rewards players for simply increasing shooting volume.

    63. Rose added value, but with a Ray Felton or Brandon Jennings, that team still wins 50+ because of the strength of their defense. Rose was the benefactor of great team play, like many a baseball MVP.

      you is crazy

      Also they went 32-7 that year with rose and only 18-9 without him. He clearly was still a major reason why they won 50 games.

      By my common core style mathematics 18-9 x3= 54-27 in 81 games. So even without Rose they were on a 50+ win pace.

    64. Never knew it was so hard to accept that Derrick Rose was quite integral to how good those Bulls teams were. Without him they ended up losing to an 8th seed in Round 1.

    65. By my common core style mathematics 18-9 x3= 54-27 in 81 games. So even without Rose they were on a 50+ win pace.

      I never said they wouldn’t win 50 without Rose, but they were on a 65 win pace with him and about 55 without him. 10 wins is a lot.

    66. Interesting that “benefactor” suddenly becomes a part of WPhead parlance when it involves a high usage player.

      Also quite interesting that Jowles is using record differentials to argue value.

      As you recall, any reference to the extreme disparity in win % with/without Melo over his career and all of his on/off stats are dismissed off-hand by Jowles, except, apparently, when he needs to show how little value Rose had in his MVP year.

    67. So we can disregard all-in-one stats, but point at on-off win/loss records to accurately evaluate an individual player’s talent. Okay.

      No, ruruland: it’s everyone else doing that. I’m saying that if Rose is the lynchpin of that offense, they should have precipitously declined in the following season, when he played, what, 35% of the minutes of the previous season.

      They didn’t, and their defense stayed nearly the best in the league. The people asserting Rose’s inflated value should be answering that question.

    68. And Jowles, the Knicks were better with Chandler off the court that year.

      In fact, the Knicks were better defensively with Chandler on the bench in both of his final two years with the Knicks.

      But, yes, he was very good defensively that season and certainly the most valuable player on the team THAT year.

    69. “So we can disregard all-in-one stats, but point at on-off win/loss records to accurately evaluate an individual player’s talent. Okay.”

      Once again, a classic Jowles strawman. Never, have I ever said it’s ok to disregard all in-one stats.

      You are so bad at this it’s actually hilarious.

    70. Someone should track how many posts it takes, on average, for us to start arguing the same arguments we’ve been arguing for 5+ years.

      Seriously, though, ruruland – has aggressively attacking Jowles’ positions ever led to anything? Not saying I agree with him on everything, but after a certain point one starts to wonder what you’re actually hoping to achieve.

    71. ruruland,

      Since you arrived, no one on this board has been more wrong than you. No one.

      Hi! You’re still married to your incorrect ideas about volume scorers. Don’t blame me.

      Bye,

      THCJ

      P.S. I understand why you defend any and all volume scorers. If you don’t, it undermines your arguments about Carmelo Anthony.

      Derrick Rose was good at basketball. Derrick Rose was not as good as people thought he was. Derrick Rose was not the best player in the league. Derrick Rose was not the best player on the Bulls.

    72. Rose was 2nd and 5th in 2011 and 12 in OBPM, and the Bulls were an astounding 7.4 points per 100 possessions better offensively with Rose on the floor, and 3.1 in ’12.

      Those are elite offensive numbers and he was clearly of EXTREME value to the Bulls offense.

      Yes, the Bulls were still very good without Rose in 2012, but they were better with him by 2 points per 100 possessions.

      And has been mentioned, they fell off a cliff offensively once Rose got injured. Sure, there were other factors that contributed to that, but no one on the team CAME close to Rose’s OBPM in either season.

    73. Ugh, ruruland, I’m sorry that post #83 is the most damning piece of evidence I’ve ever seen mounted against your basketball positions. That’s rough.

    74. “Seriously, though, ruruland – has aggressively attacking Jowles’ positions ever led to anything? Not saying I agree with him on everything, but after a certain point one starts to wonder what you’re actually hoping to achieve.”

      It’s not for my benefit. Others continue to engage with him and his illogical positions.

    75. And has been mentioned, they fell off a cliff offensively once Rose got injured. Sure, there were other factors that contributed to that, but no one on the team CAME close to Rose’s OBPM in either season.

      Do you mean the 2012-13 season? As I said, they lost a guy who shot 60 TS% that year. That is a seriously confounding factor.

      Again, Rose was a valuable player. I simply take issue with the assertions that he once was an MVP-caliber player. Maybe he was top 10 that year, but definitely not an MVP. It was a team award that year.

    76. Somehow it’s ok that Jowles continues his bullshit, though, so go for it guys. I’M the one who should stop. Got it.

    77. Jowles, I haven’t seen one person on here suggest that Rose’s MVP award was completely deserved. All I’ve seen is people say Rose was extremely valuable and very good at basketball during his brief peak run with the Bulls which isn’t a controversial statement or even one you disagree with.

    78. This is just getting ridiculous.

      . . .

      New topic: who are the heavy weights for the Olympics? Obviously we’re probably the favorites, but I’m interested in hearing what other teams could make serious runs.

    79. Don’t let him get to you ruru. He’ll be making plenty of excuses once this juggernaut of a team takes off this season. And he won’t be the only one. He thinks he knows more than Phil Jackson so what else is there to say?

    80. “Do you mean the 2012-13 season? As I said, they lost a guy who shot 60 TS% that year. That is a seriously confounding factor.

      Again, Rose was a valuable player. I simply take issue with the assertions that he once was an MVP-caliber player. Maybe he was top 10 that year, but definitely not an MVP. It was a team award that year.”

      Korver was and continues to be awesome. He was also very valuable to that offense and was probably the best spot-up shooter in basketball (and might still be). Yet, his OPBM didn’t compare to Rose’s in either season.

      And I agree, Rose was not the best player in the league, and there is and continues to be a prevalent bias towards high-usage players and against low-usage players.

      WE AGREE

      But you and WP take the efficiency/usage debate way too far to the other extreme.

    81. Somehow it’s ok that Jowles continues his bullshit, though, so go for it guys. I’M the one who should stop. Got it.

      “They can talk about whatever they wanna talk about me, because I got maxed. I’m a max player. Don’t get mad at me, because I’m telling you what’s real. One plus one is two, all day long, and it’s never gonna change. And that’s factorial.”

      And I agree, Rose was not the best player in the league, and there is and continues to be a prevalent bias towards high-usage players and against low-usage players.

      Wow. This is a new day.

    82. If WP said Carmelo Anthony was a great player, WP would be ruru’s most favorite statistic ever.

      #factorial

    83. I never said they wouldn’t win 50 without Rose, but they were on a 65 win pace with him and about 55 without him. 10 wins is a lot.

      I just was using your post to set up the records, because as I scrolled down I saw the 50 win post then a yours with actual records. I know actual facts are frowned upon but you provided some for both sides of the argument. My bad for making it look like I was nitpicking you. My computer skills stink.

    84. The biggest debate we are likely to have this year is Rose’s value. If he comes out scoring and making some athletic plays for himself and others (but with a moderately low TS%), the same people that imo overrated him in the past will overrate him again. And if the Knicks are not winning a lot of games, they will point to Courtney Lee or the other non scores on the bench as the source of the problem.

    85. Right, because arguing that usage is NOT completely irrelevant to determining value has no basis in a debate about player value.

    86. As for the Olympics, bookmark this thread haters: Carmelo will miss the first 7-10 games of the NBA season with Zika, which he will contract while leading the US to gold.

    87. People overrated Rose in the past by considering him to be an extremely valuable player in his short-lived peak Bulls years? I didn’t post here then, but unless people were saying he’s the unequivocal best player in the world and were just saying he’s a really good player that was very valuable to the Bulls that’s just a fact.

    88. Jowles said that there is now way Rose eclipses .100 WS/48, so that seems like a good starting point.

      40-1? 30-1?

    89. Willy is going to be a terrific player for us. I love what I’ve seen from his recent videos.

      Rose/Jennings/Baker
      Lee/Holiday/Sasha
      KP/LT/Kuz
      Melo/KoQ/NDour
      Noah/Willy/Plumlee

      Gotta love this team. It’s got everything!

    90. “People overrated Rose in the past by considering him to be an extremely valuable player in his short-lived peak Bulls years? I didn’t post here then, but unless people were saying he’s the unequivocal best player in the world and were just saying he’s a really good player that was very valuable to the Bulls that’s just a fact.”

      Very few “overrate” Rose on this board. The expectations, generally speaking, are extremely low.

      But we have to pretend we’re in this paradigm where everyone thinks Rose is great so that the genius contrarians like Jowles and JK can show how the complete opposite is true, and that no one besides them understands the simple, simple game of roundball.

    91. I dunno, I’d give Rose about a 10% chance of cracking that .540 TS%. I’d give the same odds for him cracking a .100 WS48.

    92. By my common core style mathematics 18-9 x3= 54-27 in 81 games. So even without Rose they were on a 50+ win pace.

      By that logic, they would have gone 68-14 that year with Rose. Whatever.

    93. ruruland,

      I don’t claim to the have the Rosetta Stone of the relationship between usage and efficiency and how that impacts value. If you ask me, no formula captures it perfectly because it depends a lot on how many other scorers you have on the team. But based on my experience following players that move from team to team and trying to measure their impact, I think models like Wins Produced have a bigger problem with over estimating the value of low usage efficient players than high usage moderate/low efficiency players. The latter can be important on bad offensive teams that lack other players that can create and score for themselves (like Melo last year), but once you have a properly built team those higher usage and lower efficiency players tend to be overvalued. Their efficiency does not rise much on good teams unless they overhaul their game and actually improve their shot and shot selection over time. Unless the Knicks play a really good brand of ball, I don’t expect this offense to be particularly efficient with Melo and Rose as the one/two punch. If things are better than I expect, it’s KP that’s going to have a lot to do with that.

    94. Jowles said that there is now way Rose eclipses .100 WS/48, so that seems like a good starting point.

      (He actually said .090, but why quibble?)

    95. “The latter can be important to a team if it lacks other players that can create and score for themselves (like Melo last or or Rose in Chicago), but once you have a properly built team those higher usage and lower efficiency players tend to be overvalued.”

      How many of those teams exist, and how many of those players exist?

      let me ask you this?

      How much credit does Melo get for offenses consistently playing at very good to elite with him on the floor?

      Is it because he consistently has very good role players around him?

      And if so, why does it seem that many of those role players see a decrease in efficiency with slight upticks in usage once they play with other teams (excluding going to teams with a great high-usage teammate)?

    96. What odds will one of you guys give me for Rose scoring at +540 TS?

      Well, he only has done that once in his career, but that was before the three “minor” knee injuries, from which he has possibly fully recovered, or gotten even better! I’m not his surgeon, so there’s no way for me to know.

      Hell, this could be the year he hits .600. We don’t have enough information to accurately predict, and even then, we can’t evaluate until the season is over.

    97. Derrick Rose was good at basketball. Derrick Rose was not as good as people thought he was. Derrick Rose was not the best player in the league. Derrick Rose was not the best player on the Bulls.

      And Michael Jordan sucked compared to Horace Grant.

      We never learn.

    98. “Well, he only did that once in his career, but that was before the three “minor” knee injuries, from which he has possibly fully recovered.”

      I know. So what odds would you give? 10-1 seems very generous, but we can lay it.

    99. How much credit does Melo get for offenses consistently playing at very good to elite with him on the floor?

      Didn’t we go over this already?

    100. Well, I agree that Rose posting a .540 TS% is very unlikely. I’d be happy with .520 with oodles of Kobe assists to Por-ZING-is!

      Oh, I forgot, there’s no such thing. Sorry.

    101. By that logic, they would have gone 68-14 that year with Rose. Whatever.

      You were the guy mocking the 50 wins without Rose assertion. FFS I know it’s the internet but unless we do a meet and greet no one will ever meet anyone else, at least stay silent or “my bad.” I used to think Mike Sweetney would be good, in part, because my eyetest at the Big East Tournament told me he was a beast. I still bemoan the heady seven days of Frank Williams as a starter. It happens.

    102. I will agree there will be plenty of PorzinGod opportunities, especially with the sub-average shooting around the rim. :-)

    103. @112,

      I think players like Melo contribute a lot of value on teams without much scoring punch around them, but those will typically be bad or mediocre teams. On a team with a solid trio of very good scorers (which Melo, Rose, and KP could easily be this year), he is unlikely to raise his TS% above the typical range. It may be a bit better than last year because of his injury recovery last year, but in his normal range. If that’s the case, we better hope that KP’s shot selection and shooting improve a lot because despite the fact that we have 2 of what are generally considered high level scorers in Melo and Rose, it would not shock me if our team TS% is average or even below. The one exception would be if Hornacek improves the shot selection and pace a lot. That’s what I am hoping for.

    104. I have a hard time taking a lot out of the lockout year because there were so many weird things that happened. Like, we finished 5th in DRtg and were good defensively even when Melo and STAT played together.

      It’s a good question though.

      http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/chandty01/gamelog/2012/

      Shumpert was insanely good at forcing turnovers that year- that was back when you could subscribe to synergy and his turnovers forced numbers were significantly higher than anyone else put up in the three years of data they had available at the time- If I recall correctly he was forcing turnovers on something like 16.5% of possessions (and well over 20% on isolations) where he was the primary defender while guys like Tony Allen and Chris Paul were in the 11-12% range. He was an elite on the ball defender that year. Never the same after the ACL. Chandler was amazing but he was hardly the sole reason the defense was as good as it was.

    105. And Michael Jordan sucked compared to Horace Grant.

      We never learn.

      Never would I ever make this claim.

      http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1992/#pgl_advanced_playoffs::none

      Look at that friggin’ game log. I can count the “bad” games on one hand. Dude had <120 ORtg in 10 of 22 games. That's just absurd. His top 4 USG% games were all above .600 TS%, with one at a ridiculous .738. And they only won by 5 points!

      Grant went from a sub-.200 WP48 player to well above that threshold (with his 1991-92 season being a true superstar season) right as the Bulls started winning titles in dominating fashion. Coincidence, I'm sure.

      Do I need to remind you that the Cavs got bounced in the semis despite having the undisputed best player since Jordan in his prime? It’s incredibly rare for a team to win championships without three legit stars. The Bulls absolutely had three (in both threepeats), and Jordan was the best among them. Except for Rodman, who is an alien.

    106. This team seems very likely to have a poor eFG%. They look like a bottom five eFG% team to me. So the only way I see them getting their TS% up to league average is by getting to the line A LOT. Unfortunately this is one area where Rose has fallen off the table since his injuries.

    107. You were the guy mocking the 50 wins without Rose assertion. FFS I know it’s the internet but unless we do a meet and greet no one will ever meet anyone else, at least stay silent or “my bad.”

      Huh? If you translate the 14-game difference to the previous year, the Bulls would have won 48 games w/o Rose instead of 62 with him, going from #1 seed in the EC to #5. Can anyone really say with a straight face that Rose wasn’t their best player that year?

    108. Can anyone really say with a straight face that Rose wasn’t their best player that year?

      Sure, because Noah was their best player. He missed a lot of games though

    109. This team seems very likely to have a poor eFG%. They look like a bottom five eFG% team to me. So the only way I see them getting their TS% up to league average is by getting to the line A LOT. Unfortunately this is one area where Rose has fallen off the table since his injuries.

      S-Y-N-E-R-G-Y you fool

    110. Sure, because Noah was their best player. He missed a lot of games though

      Funny, they were 36-12 with Noah and 26-8 without him. Since they played better with Noah than without him (unlike the following year re: Rose) I guess he sucked worse than Rose! Oh wait, when Noah went down it opened up an opportunity for WP all-star Omer Asik to fill in; now it all makes sense!

      Yeah, with guys like Ronnie Brewer and Omer Asik, who needed either Rose or Noah?

    111. Imagine a hypothetical warrior’s team. Steph Curry’s backup is Kyle Lowry and Draymond Green’s backup is Andrea Bargnani. I bet that team would survive the loss of Steph Curry better than they would survive the loss of Draymond Green. Would that mean Draymond is a more productive basketball player than Steph?

    112. C’mon, DRed. You know better than that. Rose was the man on that team and everyone knows it. Case closed.

    113. C’mon, DRed. You know better than that. Rose was the man on that team and everyone knows it. Case closed.

      QED DRed you fucking dummy

    114. Does it matter that Rose had a higher WS/48 than Noah and played over 3000 minutes to Noah’s 1500?

      Naah, of course not.

    115. The funny thing about this argument is that one side is arguing that, in his MVP year, Rose might not have been the best player in the league, but he was great because he was at least top 10. Jowles is arguing that he sucked because he was merely “maybe top 10.” It sounds like they are in violent agreement.

    116. Actually, the argument is whether he was the best player on his team that year, which he clearly and indisputably was by every measure except WP, where he was behind WP HOFer Ronnie Brewer, who we all subsequently got to see up close.

    117. Shumpert was insanely good at forcing turnovers that year- that was back when you could subscribe to synergy and his turnovers forced numbers were significantly higher than anyone else put up in the three years of data they had available at the time- If I recall correctly he was forcing turnovers on something like 16.5% of possessions (and well over 20% on isolations) where he was the primary defender while guys like Tony Allen and Chris Paul were in the 11-12% range. He was an elite on the ball defender that year. Never the same after the ACL. Chandler was amazing but he was hardly the sole reason the defense was as good as it was.

      That team had a lot of defensive talent. Shumpert was guarding backcourt players (which is where he excelled), Fields was guarding small forwards (which is where he excelled) and Jeffries was just an overall strong defender. Add in Chandler’s strong play and there was a lot of really good defensive players on that team. The next year, Jeffries and Fields were gone and Shumpert was playing the 3.

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