Knicks Morning News (2016.07.01)

  • [New York Times] Knicks Turn Their Rebuilding Strategy Up a Notch (Fri, 01 Jul 2016 00:37:14 GMT)

    The team is said to be meeting with Joakim Noah, its primary target in the free-agent market.

  • [New York Times] U.S. Women Trace Olympic Basketball Success to 1976 (Fri, 01 Jul 2016 00:33:35 GMT)

    The United States, currently on a 41-game Olympic winning streak, was not expected to qualify for the Games that year, but took home silver.

  • [New York Times] AP Source: DeMar DeRozan Staying With Raptors (Fri, 01 Jul 2016 06:39:35 GMT)

    DeMar DeRozan turned the biggest year of his career into a very big contract.

  • [New York Times] Durant Meets With Thunder to Kick Off Free Agency Tour (Fri, 01 Jul 2016 05:42:43 GMT)

    Kevin Durant started his free agency tour in a familiar place.

  • [New York Post] Ex-teammate talks playing with Derrick Rose, Joakim Noah (Fri, 01 Jul 2016 00:07:27 -0400)

    SiriusXM NBA Radio host and former Bulls/Nets forward Brian Scalabrine talks about his time playing with Derrick Rose and Joakim Noah and free agency with The Post's Justin Terranova. Q: What would Joakim Noah bring to the Knicks? A: He's one of the best passing big men, along with Marc Gasol, in the NBA. Jo…

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    Mike Kurylo

    Mike Kurylo is the founder and editor of KnickerBlogger.net. His book on the 2012 Knicks, "We’ll Always Have Linsanity," is on sale now. Follow him on twitter (@KnickerBlogger).

    413 thoughts to “Knicks Morning News (2016.07.01)”

    1. Reposting here to start a new thread…

      I want to do a slow clap for THCJ — who Phil Jackson obviously hates enough to spend all his offseason $ trolling. Derrick Rose, 4 years for Noah, Eric Gordon, and then Austin Rivers as the cherry on top.

      Seriously though —
      Given what Mozgov got, it’d be hard to argue against $17-18 AAV for Noah. I’m done talking about the Lopez deal, but like ruru said, Noah is a better player than Lopez but just comes with far greater risk — ESPECIALLY over a 4 year contract. 3 years guaranteed is not outrageous, but I’m not super happy about the AAV in that case. If Berman is right and the 4th year is nonguaranteed though.. that’d be a very nice trade piece before year 4.

      So Phil’s 1st call was to Courtney Lee – my hope is all this Eric Gordon talk is just to put some pressure on Lee. Sounds like the 2 teams with the greatest interest in Lee are the Knicks and the Kings — the sell could very much be to come and play for a little less in NY on a team that is at least not as much a dumpster fire as the Kings are.

      And Austin Rivers? Meh. We can’t be paying him that much if signing other people, so meh.

    2. I’m not feeling Eric Gordon. WTF? Ron Baker better be ready for prime time.

    3. If we end up with Rose, Noah and Gordon, Robert Randolph should start playing “Hurts So Good” on Friday night Knicks.

    4. [ER version]

      Don’t mind ridin’ the bus
      Don’t mind takin’ the train
      Don’t mind wearing walking shoes
      To plunder through the rain

      Knicks on Friday Night
      MSG is the place to be
      Our Roster is sooo groovy
      Looks like ‘Grey’s anatomy’

    5. Dion Waiters to the Kings would be so hilarious.

      so glad I’m not a Kings or Lakers fan.

    6. Limerick Time:

      There once was a GM named Phil
      Who laughed in LA with a thrill
      For he found it quite funny
      Dolan paid him much money
      To sign players over the hill.

    7. I’d pay good money to follow Phil around for the next few days and hear him sell these moves.

    8. If we sign Eric Gordon to a contract that’s two fireable offenses within the span of 2 days

    9. It seems like most of the high-profile FAs will either stay put…Whiteside, Batum, Durant…or will be grossly overpaid…Mozgov, Parsons, Noah.

    10. Phil is seriously challenging “Optimism”.
      This combination of Rose/Noah/Gordon needs TRULY UPTEMPO PERSONALITY to be accepted from a fan as a plan for building a team…

    11. I can’t keep up.

      Everything big that’s been done thus far by Phil has been a surprise and contrary to “reports.” The Fisher firing, Lopez signing then trading, Afflalo, Rose, Hornacek… all were surprises. I’ll just wait and see. I mean, hell, we were so sure Rambis was our man five minutes before Hornacek was drawing up papers.

    12. I actually like the idea of signing rivers. He is only 23 and was at least as good as Dion waiters last season, and waiters is older. Waiters will surely get more due to his solid playoffs. I just hope it’s not another stupid 1+1 or 1 year deal. Give me something to hope for….

    13. How were Lopez signing and Rose trades surprises? It was reported that we had an agreement with Lopez prior to signing him but we were making him wait to see if we could get DeAndre Jordan. ESPN reported that we were discussing trading for Rose internally days before the trade actually happened. And was signing Afflalo really a surprise?

    14. I actually like the idea of signing rivers. He is only 23 and was at least as good as Dion waiters last season, and waiters is older. Waiters will surely get more due to his solid playoffs. I just hope it’s not another stupid 1+1 or 1 year deal. Give me something to hope for….

      Who cares if he was at least as good as Waiters? Waiters sucks also.

    15. Austin Rivers sucks and will always suck. His daddy don’t want him no mo.

    16. Eric Gordon??!?!!? WTF, I didn’t even think he was still in the NBA
      If these rumors are true Phl must have overdosed on peyote
      I say No with a capital N and a capital O

    17. Rivers was a competent bench rotation player last season. If you can get him for under $8m on a multi year deal that not only is value but value with upside. There is still room for him to improve. It’s not sexy but your have to overpay for sexy.

    18. I just wanna wake up from this Eric Gordon and Austin Rivers nightmare. I’m perfectly okay with Joakim Noah for whatever he gets. I’d rather we give that money to Biyombo, but it’s cool. If we get lucky, Noah will stay healthy and add 12 wins to our team. It’s Eric Gordon and Austin Rivers that I want no part of. Whatever happened to E’twaun Moore and Troy Daniels? They would be cheaper and they’re better options for guys to put next to Galloway. Courtney Lee would also make me pretty sad since he’s Captain Average, but at least he doesn’t suck the winning out of a basketball game like Rivers or an Eric Gordon DNP.

    19. Rivers was a competent bench rotation player last season. If you can get him for under $8m on a multi year deal that not only is value but value with upside. There is still room for him to improve.

      Competent in what way? His traditional, per 36, and advanced stats all suck. What does he do at anything resembling a competent level?

    20. We found out about Robin Lopez after the “verbal commitment” thing, and Afflalo too. We had no idea we were even interested in them until after they committed.

    21. I just wanna hope and see what actually does happen. (Not that I would support Gordon. Noah maybe.)

    22. With the money flying around Carmelo Anthony is looking like a bargain. And I’m absolutely fine with bargain hunting Noah, Lee or Gordon, Austin Rivers would be swell with me. Jeeze, Ish Smith signs for 3yr/$18M!!!!

      Mozgov 4yr/65M ($16M per year)
      Whiteside 4yr/98M ($24.5M per year)
      Beal 5yr/128M ($25.6M)
      Derozan 5yr/139M ($27.8M per year)
      Batum 5yr/120M ($24M per year)
      Drummond 5yr/130M ($26M per year)

    23. Last year we had an old backcourt that couldn’t guard anyone so I really like that now we’re getting a younger backcourt that can’t guard anyone. Or stay healthy.

    24. Apparently Derrick Rose and Eric Gordon were the greatest AAU back court of all time. Who wouldn’t want those guys?

      Derrick Rose, Eric Gordon, Carmelo Anthony, Kristaps Porzingis, and Joakim Noah. Our starting five could miss a total greater than 100 games next year.

    25. Derrick Rose, Eric Gordon, Carmelo Anthony, Kristaps Porzingis, and Joakim Noah. Our starting five could miss a total greater than 100 games next year.

      Man, they would’ve been tough in 2012 though.

    26. Maybe we could wait until the Knicks actually, you know, agree to a contract with someone to gripe and whine? Hey, if the Noah 4/$72m turns out to be what they agree to, I’ll join in the hate. But now I’m reading that it might only be 2 or 3 years, or that the Knicks want him at $15-16M (in other words, Mozgov money).

      I don’t really want Gordon either, but we haven’t even heard years or salary rumors for him yet. MIGHT just be a negotiating ploy to keep Lee’s agent from asking for too much.

      In fact, if I wanted to tweak a player and agent, I’d leak to Woj and others…

    27. I was checking Austin Rivers basketball-reference page and apparently his nickname is “sub-zero”

      I guess they were looking at his WP/48 when they named him.

    28. SO there’s a pretty good chance that in 2016-17 alone Robin Lopez and Jerian Grant could be more productive than (in addition to being younger a cheaper than) Noah and Rose, right?

    29. A healthy Joakim Noah will out produce Grant and Lopez by 4 or 5 wins maybe. But yes; there’s a chance due to his health.

    30. On a personal note, I was getting unreasonably excited about Jerian Grant working on his jumper with Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf this offseason.

    31. Why wait to gripe and whine when you can just do it all of the time instead? Much easier that way.

    32. I am completely baffled by what is going on. Derrick Rose. Eric Gordon? Seriously?

      Did Humpty Dumpty get the max already?

    33. I am completely baffled by what is going on. Derrick Rose. Eric Gordon? Seriously?

      Did Humpty Dumpty get the max already?

      Guys who can’t stay healthy are the new market inefficiency.

    34. Why wait to gripe and whine when you can just do it all of the time instead?

      Maybe quit whining so much. Bruh.

      Austin Rivers is going to be awesome! He’s a battle tested playoff vet and only 23. Great job Phil! And buying low on Eric Gordon is brilliant! His legs are fresh after never playing a full season in the NBA. I have a feeling in my belly this is the year he’s going to be healthy and when you pair Derrick Rose with a 38% 3 point shooter it’s going to be a miracle on 34th street part 2! Yeah! If we don’t win 65 games next season it’ll only be because we won 70!

    35. Guys who can’t stay healthy are the new market inefficiency.

      I want royalties for that line. It’s going to be used a lot over the next year.

    36. I know we love Masai around here like a dog loves his abusive owner, but this DeRozan contract is a huge mistake. And yes, I am taking into account the relative difficult Toronto has in attracting free agents. DeRozan is just not that good a player, and he is the sort of player that will likely age badly, since he is so reliant on getting to the line — the single skill with the steepest aging curve. Some people think he is a pretty good defender, but those people are wrong. He really isn’t, I don’t even think he’s an average defender. I get how hard it is for Toronto to intentionally get worse the year after winning 2 ECF agains the champs, but the price here is way too high to white knuckle their tenuous position.

    37. Owen
      July 1, 2016 at 10:08 am
      Guys who can’t stay healthy are the new market inefficiency.

      I want royalties for that line. It’s going to be used a lot over the next year.

      Sorry, here you go: Guys who can’t stay healthy are the new market inefficiency TM Owen

    38. Don’t worry. Masai is going to trade Derozan to us at the All – Star break for a resurgent Derrick Rose and our first round pick.

      But yeah, 100% agree.

    39. The DeRozan extension is really awful. But at least it doesn’t look like he gave him a NTC, so he can possible be dumped at a team that overvalues inefficient scorers.

    40. I’m looking at the numbers these players are getting and it seems the best course of action is aim for the couple true stars; Durant, Whiteside, Batum, then if missing on them which two are already gone, sign no one until the craziness wears off and then sign 3-4 players to reasonable contracts. There will be a number of players at least as good as Gordon or Mozgov sitting without contracts in a week when the big money is gone.

    41. I know we love Masai around here like a dog loves his abusive owner, but this DeRozan contract is a huge mistake.

      Seriously, if a less well-regarded GM had given out that deal he would be getting absolutely slaughtered. I get that SG is not a deep position around the league, but Derozan’s numbers are so mediocre and his +/- numbers consistently show that they’re every bit as good without him. One of Masai’s repeating patterns has seemed to be that he really hates letting guys walk for nothing. He got burned with it on Nene (who they reportedly didn’t really want, but resigned anyway and then ended up flipping for the JaVale mess) and he’s going to get burned by it here too I think.

      Tough spot for him to let one of the “stars” of the team walk after the best year in franchise history, but even with the crazy money being tossed around that deal looks really bad right off the bat.

    42. Bad contract but it’s something I feel he “had to do” or he would have lost some cache with the ownership group and Drake. DeRozan is likely to be a good but not great player for most of that contract since he’s signed through age 26-31 and he’s relatively healthy. I don’t like the contract, but Ujiri has successfully unloaded Rudy Gay and Andrea Bargnani for assets in the past, and both of those guys are terrible.

    43. Vincoug – Going to make it my footer on email.

      I clearly don’t understand the new NBA market. But it strikes me a lot of front offices don’t either.

    44. There will be a number of players at least as good as Gordon or Mozgov sitting without contracts in a week when the big money is gone.

      While this is usually the case I’m not sure it’s going to work out that way this year. It’s not like a normal season where there’s a few teams with big space who have a feeding frenzy for the top guys and then the market settles. A week from now all the best players are going to be off the board, and…there’s still going to be massive amounts of cap space on the margins of the league. The Sixers have like $60M in cap space themselves. I think until the very end players are going to be able to drum up bidding wars. The money (I think) is going to be silly all summer. Maybe not Mozgov level silly, but silly.

    45. Vincoug – Going to make it my footer on email.

      I clearly don’t understand the new NBA market. But it strikes me a lot of front offices don’t either.

      A lot of front offices didn’t understand the old market either.

    46. Beal is another one like Derozan where I understand why they felt like they couldn’t let him leave but good god is $130M a lot for him. He did only just turn 23, so there’s still upside there, but he’s always hurt and has never been more than average.

    47. Lee vs. Gordon is really simple to look at:
      We need a 3nD.
      Lee is the D
      Gordon is the 3.
      Can’t get both.
      Which is more important?

    48. DeRozan stays healthy and contributes to winning basketball though, so he at least has that going for him. Beal is injury prone and half decent.

      That being said, I don’t know if it’s a worse bet giving Beal a max or EG a multi year deal.

    49. This will be a super unpopular opinion but oh well:

      Eric Gordon has been one of my favorite players since his days at Indiana. I was so bummed when we didn’t draft him in 08. I know he’s always hurt but I irrationally love his game and would be stoked to sign him to a short, prove-it deal.

    50. The Gordon & Rivers stuff could just be agent bullshit. If we sign Noah I think it would be smarter to not sign anyone but a bunch of young, cheap guys who we can at least count on to be reasonably healthy.

    51. I can defend the DeRozan contract:

      1) the Raptors are good, in a weak conference, and good teams always want to keep their players.

      2) DeRozan ranks in the top 2 in franchise history in almost every single statistical category. So, I imagine, the Raptors fans would crucify management if they let him go simply because they didn’t want to pay him as much as the Lakers would have.

      3) they didn’t give him a no-trade clause. (Did they??)

    52. Fun Fact 1: Biblical Noah lived to the ripe old age of 950 years. Joakim Noah will be older than biblical Noah when his NYK contract expires.

      Fun Fact 2: A certain center posted the following TS%s last season: December=.602, January=.591, February=.668, March=.592. His name? Freakin’ 13m Robin How Ya Like Me Now Lopez! Dude was top 5 center after he adjusted to new offense on an incredible contract.

      It’s hard to be more pessimistic than JK47 but here’s what I wrote on June 26th in response to his comment that Phil was looking to 2017:

      I think Phil’s priority is 2016 not 2017. I think he desperately wants to make the playoffs this year and future flexibility is a lower priority. He wants vet starters. He hopes Rose will stay healthy and really ball in a contract year. He’ll pick up an SG like Lee. My guess is his first choice at center is Noah but he’s not taking a 1 year deal so Phil will have to offer him something like a 4 year/75m deal. I think this is a one-and-done year for Phil in that I think he plans to leave no matter what. He hopes to declare victory by citing KP and making the playoffs.

      The only part left in my prediction will be Phil’s exit this summer leaving the next GM to preside over the decline of Melo and Noah and make the decision on whether to give Rose a nice 4 year deal.

    53. If we could sign EG to be our 6th man/3rd guard that would be marvelous. He could close out games for us next to Rose while we start a guy like E’twaun Moore or even Justin Holiday.

    54. FWIW, I like all these moves. Yes, they’re gambles, but without any (many?) long term ramifications. If this explodes in our face (again), we get another solid pick to pair with ‘Zingis to build around and another year of FA to try again. As I’ve said, Feast or Famine.

      The only way we truly lose is if we rock the reg. season only to die quickly in the playoffs.

    55. Lmao I loathe Austin. Phil you better not man. I with picket MSG.

      We’re gonna make er one of us, yet!

    56. I wanna go on record right now:

      1) I hate the Rose trade as of July 1, 2016
      2) The Noah signing is cool. He can still ball and won’t complain like Tyson Chandler did about not getting the ball.
      3) Eric Gordon cannot be signed to start.
      4) Austin Rivers would immediately be the worse back up guard in the league for the second year in a row. Rose and Rivers is easily worse than Calderon, Grant, and Galloway.
      5) If we add Gordon and Rivers, then Knickerblogger should set up a GoFundMe account for betting the under. We can do a group pool and split the earnings while also making a separate bet and cash in on our misery. It would be glorious. As fans we get to root for our team, but every loss pushes us towards a good payout by April.

    57. I just hope that when we’re picking in the top 5 of the lottery we don’t select Harry Giles. That guy is awesome and a more complete version of Amar’e Stoudemire, but he’s already had two knee surgeries.

    58. FWIW, I like all these moves. Yes, they’re gambles, but without any (many?) long term ramifications. If this explodes in our face (again), we get another solid pick to pair with ‘Zingis to build around and another year of FA to try again. As I’ve said, Feast or Famine.

      The only way we truly lose is if we rock the reg. season only to die quickly in the playoffs.

      Don’t worry. Playoffs will not happen with any combination of Rose, Rivers, Gordon or Crawford.

    59. Guys who can’t stay healthy are the new market inefficiency.

      Greg Oden could still have some upside. Make it happen, Phil!

    60. Guys who can’t stay healthy are the new market inefficiency.

      Do we still own the rights to Cuttino Mobley? He could solve all of our problems at the 2.

    61. We should definitely have a “Should You Bet The Over or Under on the Knicks This Season” post sometime after the dust settles equipped with a poll and round table discussion.

    62. Feels like there’s some “worst offseason in Knicks’ modern history” potential here. Stay tuned!

    63. Don’t worry. Playoffs will not happen with any combination of Rose, Rivers, Gordon or Crawford.

      Then Lottery here we come. That’s a win too.

    64. The 2010 off season was pretty terrible. Between Amar’e’s bad knees, Ray Felton, and the David Lee trade which amounted to nothing but a healthy Ronny Turiaf, that was a terrible free agency. At least Joakim Noah’s knees don’t have an expiration date.

    65. Nets signed Lin. We should have made that deal. But he probably wanted to start.

    66. @70 LOL

      I’m guessing you saw the recent video of a gray-haired “Cat” balling at the Drew League. Sign him up!

    67. No way Melo lets Lin back in.

      If that’s true then he really should be traded. Not because Lin is so important but because he’s too powerful and petty.

    68. Test your knowledge of Knicksiness. Complete the following series:

      AMARE —> MELO NTC —> Noah’s Contract ——>???

      (A) Room exception spent on Amare
      (B) Austin/Doc in package deal for unprotected 1st round pick and two 2nd round picks
      (C) Melo praises front office moves and pledges to retire as a Knick
      (D) Rose blows out knee standing up right after signing contract at itty-bitty Knick signing table

    69. I forgot about the itty bitty Knick signing table. Has that thing been burned yet?

    70. If that’s true then he really should be traded. Not because Lin is so important but because he’s too powerful and petty.

      ::cue ruruland defending His Precious in several thousand words::

    71. FWIW, I like all these moves. Yes, they’re gambles, but without any (many?) long term ramifications. If this explodes in our face (again), we get another solid pick to pair with ‘Zingis to build around and another year of FA to try again. As I’ve said, Feast or Famine.

      @64 – I agree with you .
      I don’t understand how people think we could rebuild with no draft picks this year. It boggles the mind. Tanking gets you where the 76’ers are at these days. Now we have a team that can make the playoffs. If we’re in the hunt, we might be able to buy a player at the trade deadline. We have draft picks. We have a core. We can develop players on a good team with a good locker room. And we could even get lucky and have a healthy team. At least we can watch a team that has a chance every night.

      And I’ve alerted the suicide hotline about the Knickerblogger crew. I’ll start handing out the Xanax in front of the garden for the suicide-squad. You all are amazing. I love you all but please take a deep breath and relax. I’m so worried about you all.

    72. But at least it doesn’t look like he gave him a NTC, so he can possible be dumped at a team that overvalues inefficient scorers.

      Yeah, but first they’d have to FIND that kind of team…oh, never mind.

    73. I don’t understand how people think we could rebuild with no draft picks this year.

      We could acquire players who are good and likely to play relatively full seasons

    74. If the Knicks end up signing the likes of Noah, Gordon and Rivers, MSG has to come clean and confess that Isaiah is really running the show at this point. Right? Could Phil really be this clueless?

    75. Chris Herring brought up an interesting point on Twitter–and I don’t see how this works cap space wise–but what if the Knicks got both Lee and Gordon? Lee to start and Gordon as a combo guard off the bench. That would be pretty ideal, IMO. But even if you renounce Derrick Williams and sign Noah startin at $15 you’d somehow have to split $20 between the two of them….

    76. I would have signed Lin, Dudley and traded a 1st round pick for Garnett. Devious, huh? Even Cronin would then have to acknowledge there’s a chance.

    77. @87 If the Knicks end up signing the likes of Noah, Gordon and Rivers, MSG has to come clean and confess that Isaiah is really running the show

      I think you’d have to conclude that marketing rules the Knicks and having stars, even old an unproductive is more valuable than winning.

    78. @92

      Uh, I think Mr. Jackson knows a little more about basketball than you do.

      Wait, is that the narrative we’re still going with?

    79. FWIW, I like all these moves. Yes, they’re gambles, but without any (many?) long term ramifications. If this explodes in our face (again), we get another solid pick to pair with ‘Zingis to build around and another year of FA to try again. As I’ve said, Feast or Famine.

      Dude, what about “Noah at 4/$72M” says “without any long-term ramifications” to you?

    80. @83. “Now we have a team that can make the playoffs. If we’re in the hunt, we might be able to buy a player at the trade deadline. We have draft picks. We have a core. We can develop players on a good team with a good locker room. And we could even get lucky and have a healthy team. At least we can watch a team that has a chance every night.”

      If Phil goes through with signing the overrated bunch that they are reporting in the media, this is far from guaranteed that they will be making the playoffs. Also when you state “get lucky and have a healthy team”, with Rose and Noah that is never going to happen. As another poster stated earlier, why do people think they are both going to now play injury free after years of health issues? The answer is there is no reason to believe that other than wishful thinking.

    81. Chris Herring brought up an interesting point on Twitter–and I don’t see how this works cap space wise–but what if the Knicks got both Lee and Gordon? Lee to start and Gordon as a combo guard off the bench. That would be pretty ideal, IMO. But even if you renounce Derrick Williams and sign Noah startin at $15 you’d somehow have to split $20 between the two of them….

      They’d both have to take significant paycuts, since the Knicks would only have about $14 million left if they sign Noah to an $18 million contract.

    82. As another poster stated earlier, why do people think they are both going to now play injury free after years of health issues? The answer is there is no reason to believe that other than wishful thinking.

      Because they think that if you’re not the player’s surgeon, you can’t make a reasonable bet on their outlook. There are people on this board who really think that.

    83. We could acquire players who are good and likely to play reltively full seasons

      DRed, I’m sure, if you were GM, it would be a different story but I’m OK with the high-risk high-reward approach. We couldn’t afford no-risk players. Is Mozgov at $16M value? $24M for Batum and Whiteside? Give me a break. I challenge you, after all is said and done next week, to tell me how you would have fielded a team that could make the playoffs based on the prices they got as free agents.

    84. i’m pretty sure if we sign noah that we can forget about any playoff talk… it would be a minor miracle to have both rose and noah finish a full year and decent production…

    85. @supernova — agreed. Another way of thinking about it is that the odds that Rose and Noah recover all star form are probably similar to the odds that like Jerian grant or the draft pick we could have gotten for Lopez develops into an all star. At the same time, Rose/Noah’s average case and worst case scenarios are for sure way worse in terms of productivity per dollar.

      The only drawback is time to develop dudes, and since “you can’t rebuild in new York”, we have to settle for reliably winning 30 games or whatever.

    86. Because they think that if you’re not the player’s surgeon, you can’t make a reasonable bet on their outlook. There are people on this board who really think that.

      To me you sound ridiculous when you write stuff like this. But maybe that’s just me.

    87. DRed, I’m sure, if you were GM, it would be a different story but I’m OK with the high-risk high-reward approach. We couldn’t afford no-risk players. Is Mozgov at $16M value? $24M for Batum and Whiteside? Give me a break. I challenge you, after all is said and done next week, to tell me how you would have fielded a team that could make the playoffs based on the prices they got as free agents.

      $24M for Whiteside when Noah is about to get $18M is a fucking steal. A total, unequivocal steal. I would be shitting myself with glee if we gave Whiteside every penny he could be paid. Why? We’d be a decent team next year.

    88. To me you sound ridiculous when you write stuff like this. But maybe that’s just me.

      It might not be just you, but it’s still hilariously stupid that you disagree with me. No offense.

    89. I know the market has exploded this offseason, but jeez!!!! These numbers being thrown around are kinda out of control. Bazemore looking for 18-20 mil a year?? Lin’s deal is the only one I’ve seen that makes sense! Crazy! Whiteside too, I like his deal. As far as Noah goes, if he’s healthy, he’s a great pick up. I would be happier with it if it was for less AAV, but the market is nuts, so whatever. My only issue with Noah, is at this point, he’s not gonna become a better shot-blocker/rim protector- and he’s never been great at it. His biggest asset as a defender has been his tenacity and mobility. He’s always been mobile enough to cover the PnR while still being able to get back to his man and get over a block a game. His PnR coverage isn’t gonna age well, so paying him 18 mil possibly through age 35 isn’t the best idea. If this deal becomes a 2 + 1 or for less AAV, it will be very hard to complain. Noah’s problem last season was with his shoulder, so I expect him to be healthy at least for the 1st 2 years. I hope his shot comes back because that’s gonna make his passing very useful. As far as the other rumors with the SG spot…NO! HTDN!! Rivers is the only young guy, but he isn’t better for what we need as Troy Daniels. After adding Noah, Phil should be looking for young guys with the potential to get better. If we’re getting “2nd half of 15 Rose”, we have enough shot creators on offense to not need a Gordon, Crawford, or *chuckle* Rivers. And if Phil brings Thomas back, he will be another role player/lunchpail type with Galloway/Holiday/hopefully Daniels(perfect fit)/OQ/Noah to balance the roster. As long as he is still able to defend 3 positions fairly well and make open shots. Just to add a lil more punch to the bench, I’d love to see David Lee back on a team friendly deal. If Hernangomez is as advertised, that should make for a good squad, pending the health of Melo/Rose/Noah.

    90. Totes,

      If spacing is important in the NBA, so should it be in NBA blogs. Paragraph breaks, my man.

      Sincerely,

      Everyone

    91. JOWLES
      Reduce, mischaracterize, insult.

      Rinse. Repeat.

      Ignore all nuance, plagiarize, pound chest.

      Rinse. Repeat.

    92. It might not be just you, but it’s still hilariously stupid that you disagree with me. No offense.

      No offense taken. Your view is a “sit in my basement and spout almost-knowledge” view of things you don’t understand. How could I take offense from that? (and I’m talking about the medical stuff, not WP48 or anything else, which could theoretically be up for debate, and which is fine to disagree about reasonably)

      When you go see your doctor, you must be the most aggressive “I read on the internet that…” guy out there.

    93. How many players are worthy of max contracts and how many of those players are realistically available to new teams?

      In lieu of giving out max dollars to max-worthy players, how does a team spend?

    94. al jefferson 3 yrs 30mm to indiana

      imo noah’s market is in between jefferson and mozgov… mozgov is 29 jefferson is 31 and noah is 30…. jefferson has same injury issues as noah and probably as good on the offensive end in his prime as noah was on the defensive side…

    95. $24M for Whiteside when Noah is about to get $18M is a fucking steal. A total, unequivocal steal. I would be shitting myself with glee if we gave Whiteside every penny he could be paid. Why? We’d be a decent team next year.

      Last I looked, Whiteside was sidelined with a sprained MCL. You know, the injury Shump had a few months before he blew out his ACL?

    96. re: all the injured players and Owen’s trademarked “injuries are the new market inefficiency” —

      that might honestly be what the Knicks are thinking.
      I don’t know that they’re right (because I’m not an orthopedic surgeon!) but it might be what they’re thinking.

    97. @100 Yes, good points. I don’t know where this notion came up that you can’t have a rebuild in NY. What does that even mean? Are the fans never going to show up again, because they will never put up with some losing seasons while the younger players develop? I think not, since year after year we have been horrible and still MSG has filled the seats.

    98. if we were looking for a market inefficiency for injured players, we should have been looking at like Motiejunas and Meyers Leonard, whose productivity dropped big last year due to injuries that haven’t yet proven chronic.

      Old/injury prone players have always been cheaper, but the payout is short term at best. When you’re a 55 win team, it’s not a bad idea to take a gamble on these players.

    99. When you go see your doctor, you must be the most aggressive “I read on the internet that…” guy out there.

      Absolutely not that person. See, we come from difference places of assumption. We bet differently.

      Fact:

      Rose has played in less than half his team’s games over the last five seasons due to major injuries.

      Rose has been a terrible shooter over the last two seasons — one of the worst in the league, according to efficiency & volume.

      My assumption:

      It is highly likely that he will continue to be injured and/or shoot poorly.

      Your assumption:

      There is no way to reasonably assume that he will be an injury risk and continue to shoot poorly because we have not seen his medical results.

      When you have a cough, does your doctor immediately assume that you have cystic fibrosis? Or does your doctor bet that it’s more likely you have a cold, and start her diagnosis there? We are dealing with likelihoods, here. Do you need to see his MRI to know that a history of catastrophic injury AND terrible play is an indicator that he is unlikely to evade both of those things?

    100. Last I looked, Whiteside was sidelined with a sprained MCL. You know, the injury Shump had a few months before he blew out his ACL?

      Okay? What’s the point, here? The injuries are related?

    101. In lieu of giving out max dollars to max-worthy players, how does a team spend?

      The thing I keep thinking is that Phil had exactly the right idea last year with the Lopez contract. Obviously it’s too late now, but preemptively locking in solid veterans at reasonable rates last summer looks like just about the smartest move out there. The Cavs for example locked up Thompson and Shump to deals that looked like overpays at the time and caused them to pay a massive tax bill this year but now look like fantastic value contracts, and they probably should have done the same with JR and Delly.

      Similarly, we’d all be crowing about what a sharp move it was for Phil to have Lopez locked in at $13M in a market where Mozgov is getting 4/64 and Noah 4/75. Except…well you know the rest of the story. *Extremely Sad Trombone Noise*

    102. Clarkson for that money is a good deal with the numbers we have seen being given out.

    103. Rose? Noah? Rivers? Gordon?

      If you can’t see how horrific this is likely to turn out, I can’t bother debating anymore #bettheunder

    104. @105 – Lack of paragraphs not withstanding, I see your points and I agree somewhat. Noah alone is not enough but with KP at the 4 we have two good big men. Noah and Lopez are a wash. Both are defensive minded big men that hustle and play hard.

      And I understand your logic about balancing out the FA with some healthy kids with upside. I think we find them at the back end of this craziness. Going after someone that has proven himself means he’s overpriced. Examples are Whiteside and Batum who are good but don’t come close to being worthy of max deals – which they got. It’s absolutely crazy.

      We should be back-filling the roster with young players who have unfulfilled potential. I’m talking about players like Cleanthony Early and Ron Baker and other D-Leaguers. Give me 5 legit starters, 5 healthy backups and 5 guys we want to groom.

    105. I’m telling you right now: if the Knicks end up with these targeted free agents and an O/U above .500, I am going to make a lot of money in Vegas this year.

      I will make sure to post the bet, too.

    106. Big Al just got 3 yrs / $30M in Indiana. He’s 31 and started only 18 games last year. He’s going to look good in the post when they wear those Hickory High jerseys though.

    107. Do you need to see his MRI to know that a history of catastrophic injury AND terrible play is an indicator that he is unlikely to evade both of those things?

      When I’m deciding on whether a $25MM bet is a good one or bad one, yes I absolutely need to know every last thing, including MRI results (and not just some dude’s read of the MRI, but having my own trusted people review the actual films), conversations with the surgeons, trainers, etc.

      Your saying he had “catastrophic injury” already indicates you think you know exactly what the injuries were and what their prognosis is, when you don’t. I mean details. He had 2 meniscus surgeries and 1 ACL. None of those three would (at this point in surgical technique and rehab) be considered “catastrophic”. Players come back all the time from these and are play very well. These are not microfracture surgery or multi-ligament tears or knee dislocations or even patellar/Achilles ruptures.

      As to why he didn’t play well the last few years — can we attribute that to rehab? Can we attribute that to the way he was used? What does the film tell us?

      Look – you’re probably right. He probably will never fully regain his athleticism, and even if he does, maybe there’s something mentally broken in him from all the injuries and rehab. I’m just saying that there’s a possibility that isn’t the case.

    108. @118 agree completely. He had a value contract in Lopez and now has to overpay to find a new center, maybe as much as $5mil per year. You don’t just give away those type of assets. Obviously when constructing a roster you are going to have to overpay for players, but hopefully that is offset ( at least somewhat) by your underpaid contracts like Lopez. Who now are our undervalued assets other than KP?

    109. I wonder how quick the $$ is going to dry up. Maybe there’s $800M to spend league wide?? We are going to see the top 20 guys take 1/2 of that. the next 20 guys could average over $10M each, and then you only have $200M left to go around.

      Makes you wonder who will be left standing

    110. JOWLES
      Reduce, mischaracterize, insult.

      Rinse. Repeat.

      Ignore all nuance, plagiarize, pound chest.

      Rinse. Repeat.

      You left out.

      “I’m the smartest man alive because I say so. If you doubt me, just look at my prediction record that I revise constantly after the fact.”

      Oh, and this, for good measure, in case you forgot:

      “I’m awesome and the Knicks suck. ”

      Did I miss anything?

    111. Big Al just got 3 yrs / $30M in Indiana. He’s 31 and started only 18 games last year. He’s going to look good in the post when they wear those Hickory High jerseys though.

      He makes no sense whatsoever with the up-tempo team they seem to be trying to build, but given the other deals out there that seems like a pretty decent deal. That’s backup C money at this point, and I think he’s still better than average in that role in a vacuum.

    112. Jowles, I hate to use the phrase strawman, but by golly, again, how do you not understand that you’re omitting much of your opponents arguments so you can reduce them to a small enough size to knock down?

      “There is no way to reasonably assume that he will be an injury risk and continue to shoot poorly because we have not seen his medical results.”

      That is not his argument.

    113. The Derrixk Rose trade was the canary in the coal mine. Once that happened it was clear that Phil had done lost his mind. Joakim Noah and Eric Gordon and Austin Rivers make perfect sense in that context.

      He is putting together a roster that is gonna suck giant elephant dong a couple of years from now.

    114. Maybe Isaiah is making all these moves for Phil? Gordon is the worst possible move ever. Melo will be strangling him by the 10th game. Just give Courtney Lee what he wants and be done with it!
      Noah sucks, but since we have our picks, it’s probably better to hope that he returns to form or else breaks down. With no replacement, we’ll probably end up with a very good pick in a deep draft once he and Rose get hurt again. There is a greater chance of that happening than the Knicks winning 40 games next year.

    115. Honestly, I would root for Rose/Lee/Melo/KP/Noah. May even be a decent team.

    116. You left out.

      “I’m the smartest man alive because I say so. If you doubt me, just look at my prediction record that I revise constantly after the fact.”

      Oh, and this, for good measure, in case you forgot:

      “I’m awesome and the Knicks suck. ”

      Did I miss anything?

      How about, “I’ve got limited information about NBA players and I still have a better prediction record than every Knicks front office managers since the 90s.”

      It’s not that I’m smart or awesome. It’s that I’m not as bad as the awful, no-good people the Knicks have employed since the turn of the century. I’m not perfect, but I’m better than them. Many of us on this website are better than them. This is a business worth hundreds of millions, and many of us here in our parents’ basements are better at evaluating talent based on the simplest things — TS%, ORB%, TOV-to-FGA — than the “smartest” guys in basketball.

      I’m not some kind of basketball wunderkind nor do I think I am. That’s a thing for ruruland (and boy, do I miss Mike K. chiming in to ask ruruland how his big, wordy predictions are holding up). My point is that you only have to be better than the worst in this environment.

      I would equate it to me using OBP while an MLB front office uses BA, RBI, batter K, etc. I’m not a pioneer or a genius. I’m just read reasonable arguments and amended my beliefs accordingly.

      Every rumor during this FA period indicates that Phil Jackson ignores all of the data available to us. So what’s he using? And why is he making moves that are diametrically opposed to what many of us here would consider ideal moves?

    117. Wait, Noah sucks?

      .215 WP, .79 WS, 1.9 BPM, . 56 RPM.

      That’s above average. Really good by WP, slightly above average to average in other metrics.

      2014-15
      .179 WP, 130 WS, 1.09 RPM, 3.4 BPM.

      That’s pretty good across the board.

    118. Noah doesn’t suck, but no one else on the team can score efficiently. The value of those additional possessions from his ORB is much greater when you’ve got players that can convert.

    119. I think the issue with Noah wasn’t that he sucks, it’s his durability. And he’s not too bad on that either, 67 games last season, and 29 this past one (on a shoulder injury that usually holds fine). His FG% is subpar, but was better before the shoulder thing, 2 years ago he was pretty damn good. And that’s not what he’s good for, anyway.

    120. I really wish I could get into a heads up gambling match with some Knicks fans.

    121. @140

      His TS% was the lowest by a center in, what, 40 years? DRed?

    122. Wow, OJ Mayo gets a 2 year ban.

      Still no confirmation of any Knick signing? Uh oh, is Phil driving to Montana again?
      :-)

    123. I really wish I could get into a heads up gambling match with some Knicks fans.

      stratomatic: “Why’d you fold that ace pocket pair?”
      Poster: “Well, I didn’t know what you had.”
      stratomatic: “Yeah, but you win that hand 90% of the time.”
      Poster: “But it’s possible that you could have won it.”

    124. That’s the dumbest fucking analogy I ever heard. That’s why I don’t feed the troll.

    125. Phil is about to set this team up so they have Joakim Noah through the 2020 season, Carmelo Anthony through the 2019 season and Eric Gordon probably through at least the 2019 season. It’s still frighteningly possible that the Knicks compound this insanity by giving Derrick Rose an extension that runs through 2021. I don’t know about you guys, and maybe this makes me a pessimist jerk asshole, but I absolutely HATE the idea that the core of the team going forward is a bunch of high injury risk veterans headed straight into their decline phase.

      All of this so the Knicks can have a “win now” roster that probably wins somewhere around 35 games.

    126. Is there a way we can have 1 thread to talk about free agent news, and another to argue?

    127. I have to believe that Noah’s 40% at the rim last year (he’s a career .57 %) is an outlier due to the shoulder.

      That offensive rebound rate (career high) is just too good to suggest he’s fallen off the cliff athletically.

      If those numbers regress to the mean a bit more, he’s again one of the best 4-5 centers in the league.

    128. Nope, it’s pointless arguing all day everyday here. It’s a big part of what we do around here.

    129. @145

      That pretty much sums it up.

      I’m not so arrogant to think I can anticipate all injuries, all player development, value all the players correctly etc… I can’t. But I do thinking my “thinking” on the values and probabilities are correct. Based on that appraisal, I think the Knicks are a much worse team right now (including the Rose deal but not Noah) than they were last year.

      Noah is going to have to recover pretty good form and give us 60-70 games just to get back to where we would have been with Grant, Lopez, and Calderon. I give that some shot, but it’s far from certain.

      We’ll see what’s else comes up, but IMO would have been way better off standing pat with Lopez/Grant/Calderon and adding pieces at SG, to the bench, etc.. or renting the cap space out than doing what we are doing.

    130. Don’t worry! I’ll step back and make my evaluations even simpler. No more arguing from me.

      Example:

      Signs Eric Gordon to 4-year, $80M deal F+
      Signs Joakim Noah to 4-year, $72M deal F+
      Signs Austin Rivers to 4-year, $60M deal F-
      Signs Jamal Crawford to 3-year, $36M deal F+

    131. I have to believe that Noah’s 40% at the rim last year (he’s a career .57 %) is an outlier due to the shoulder.

      That offensive rebound rate (career high) is just too good to suggest he’s fallen off the cliff athletically.

      If those numbers regress to the mean a bit more, he’s again one of the best 4-5 centers in the league.

      I agree that it is a weird combination of things. The guy dominates the offensive glass and posts the worst TS% in decades for a center. How weird is that? Was he missing tip-in dunks?

    132. Anorexia is a societal problem

      I laughed hard

    133. In fact Noah missed an unusual number of tips, which are more volatile than you’d think in a small sample like last year. He and one 0-7 game where he missed six tips on 3 posssessions. He was also wincing in should pain most of the time. But 2014/15 was also very weak at the rim in a large sample. Asking for a return to previous form at 31 is too much. Asking for a bounce from last years horrific conversion probably isn’t.

    134. As people have mentioned here before, Noah’s ability to convert buckets from 0-3 feet completely imploded last season. He got more shots than ever at the rim, with 73% of his shots coming from 0-3 feet, but he converted a pitiful .439 of those.

      I don’t think you can blame it entirely on the shoulder, since he was having the same problems converting near the rim in the previous season. In his prime Noah very consistently shot .580 year after year from 0-3 feet, but two seasons ago that fell to .515 and then last year’s .439. The shoulder certainly didn’t help, but that .515 mark from the 2014-2015 season is an ominous number.

    135. How much would you guys offer Crabbe? Why would the Blazers break the bank for him when they’ve got McCollum?

    136. In fact Noah missed an unusual number of tips, which are more volatile than you’d think in a small sample like last year. He and one 0-7 game where he missed six tips on 3 posssessions. He was also wincing in should pain most of the time. But 2014/15 was also very weak at the rim in a large sample. Asking for a return to previous form at 31 is too much. Asking for a bounce from last years horrific conversion probably isn’t.

      Reasonable, all reasonable.

    137. I’m OK with the high-risk high-reward approach.

      I’m okay with high risk, high reward too. The Porzingis pick was high risk, high reward.

      Playoffs-Or-Bust is a high risk low reward mentality. Personally, I think competing for a chance to lose a few playoff games isn’t worth a whole lot of risk. But, then again, I don’t profit from a few playoff home games, so it’s easy for me to say it.

      Real high risk, high reward is what Philadelphia has been doing. The risk of being horrible for an extended period of time and losing fans and money is high, but the reward of building a young and talented base to compete with every year is foreseeable. It’s high risk, high reward.

      The Knicks have been horrible for an extended period of time and risk losing fans and money, but there is no reward in sight other than maybe being +.500 for a year or two before falling back into the abyss.

    138. I have no overwhelming love for crabbe but if it meant not offering four years to Evan Turner or Eric Gordon I would tie up every remaining post Noah dollar and be happyish if they matched or passed.

    139. Right, so even at 48-50 TS Noah is a damn good player. Anything average or above he’s a great player.

      His DBPM was elite against last year.

    140. A 4 year deal w Noah sucks bc of the injury risk, but also, he doesn’t seem to fit either a triangle or Hornacek offense. I mean, I’m all for a “get the best players and worry later” approach, but doesn’t anyone remember Amare getting injured and falling off a cliff at age 30? We’ll see what happens I guess.

    141. Noah’s DBPM by year.
      15/16 – not qualified, but good for 3rd among qualified.

      14/15 – 7th

      13/14 – 2nd

      12/13- 1st

      11/12 – 3rd

      He’s going to make the defense 4-6 points better per 100 possessions. A career 4.1 DBPM.

      Lopez, by contrast, is a career .7 DBPM. There’s no comparing the two on that end.

    142. re:Crabbe Apparently he switched his reprentation to CAA today. Since the Knicks are in a 2012 time warp, I will assume Dolan made him change and his signing is imminent.

    143. How many healthy years does Joakim Noah reasonably have in that body? He might give you a decent year or two but that is going to be a black hole contract by the time it ends. That’s what’s so awful about the signing and a potential Derrick Rose extension and an Eric Gordon contract. The Knicks are basically locking themselves into dead salary cap space right around the time Porzingis will be entering his prime.

    144. Playoffs-Or-Bust is a high risk low reward mentality.

      It’s not low reward and I’ll explain why.

      We will have young players on this team that we want to develop. They need playoff experience. They need to learn how to win. Players like KP need to be in a winning environment because otherwise they become like the 76’ers, a team that has a lot of kids that have no clue how to win. If the Knicks have another horrible season, how long before the NY media and fan base start to blame him for being a bust? You can measure the time in seconds.

      What the 76’ers are doing is low reward. They are 3 years into the tank and have squat to show for it.

    145. @166 –

      A 4 year deal w Noah sucks bc of the injury risk, but also, he doesn’t seem to fit either a triangle or Hornacek offense.

      How can you say that? He’s the ideal triangle center, one of the best passing bigs.

    146. “How many healthy years does Joakim Noah reasonably have in that body? He might give you a decent year or two but that is going to be a black hole contract by the time it ends. That’s what’s so awful about the signing and a potential Derrick Rose extension and an Eric Gordon contract. The Knicks are basically locking themselves into dead salary cap space right around the time Porzingis will be entering his prime.”

      All contracts you mention are speculation. There are counter rumors that the Knicks aren’t really interested in Gordon and are working to nab Wade.

      We don’t know how many years are guaranteed with Noah.

      If those things you mention come to pass, everyone will agree. But they haven’t yet.

    147. @170 – putting kp in a winning environment is a noble jesture but by being better we also have less ways to improve the next team… albatross contracts also hurts in being able to add quality players once kp is ready….

      what we’re doing is basically mirroring what new orleans has done the last 3 years…. only that they already have one of the best players in the league and we’re going after older players with similar profiles… they don’t have anything to show for it except one forgettable playoff series and they have no shot at getting back there barring a minor miracle…. it is the very definition of low reward high risk….

      we are on that same exact road if we sign noah to a 4 yr deal and follow up with a long term deal for lee or gordon…. we’d be locked into a deteroriating core that hasn’t even stepped onto the court…

    148. All contracts you mention are speculation. There are counter rumors that the Knicks aren’t really interested in Gordon and are working to nab Wade.

      Okay, I hate to be Mr. Pessimism here, but Dwyane Wade is a player who relies almost entirely on his physical gifts, and next year will be his age 35 season. His eFG% was .459 last year, WS48 was below 100 and his TS% was almost 50 points below his career average.

      That is ALSO a contract that will be a black hole by the time it ends.

    149. I don’t think RFA SGs like Crabbe, Johnson, Daniels are options to Phil because NYK would need to wait until July 7th before they could sign offer sheets. Phil would then risk losing out on Lee, Dudley, Wade and others. Plus I think Jax prefers experienced veterans (although Crabbe switching his representation to CAA is very curious). NYK would have to SHELL out for Crabbe because even if he’s not part of Portland’s future, it would make sense for them to sign him and trade him later.

    150. How many healthy years does Joakim Noah reasonably have in that body? He might give you a decent year or two but that is going to be a black hole contract by the time it ends. That’s what’s so awful about the signing and a potential Derrick Rose extension and an Eric Gordon contract. The Knicks are basically locking themselves into dead salary cap space right around the time Porzingis will be entering his prime.

      sez u

    151. I hope Noah isn’t a 4 year deal. Let’s sign Wade on a 1 year just to preserve cap space. That would be okay to me and it fills the superstar idiocy we have to do here. 4 former all-stars and KP should make Dolan a happy man and we can still end up with a good draft pick.

    152. What the 76’ers are doing is low reward. They are 3 years into the tank and have squat to show for it.

      That is the high risk part, not the low reward part.

      As for the rest of your argument, I get it, and I would be much more open to accepting it if I haven’t been fed the Playoffs-Or-Bust mentality for all of the past crappy decade and a half.

      “Welcome back to the playoffs, New York City!” Isiah crooned from center court, mic in hand, on April 22nd, 2004 before the Knicks dropped four straight. The Knicks are still reeling from that playoff appearance, 12 years later.

      When I say playoffs, you say go
      “Playoffs”
      GO!
      “Playoffs”
      GO!
      GoNyGoNyGo!

    153. A one year flyer on Wade will be fine. Pat Riley will go on a rant. Plus Gabrielle Union will have her own WAGs or Real Housewives with Lala Anthony. Realistacally ,though, DWade resigns with Miami or joins Lebron.

    154. Dwyane Wade has a very high FORP (Fame Over Replacement Player) and that’s the one advanced stat the Knick front office cares about most.

    155. @180 They’re not reeling any more. They have a young stud, a star player on a reasonable contract, and young players (Willy, Galloway, others TBD), plenty of potential cap space and all #1 and most #2 draft picks going forward. They have a former MVP at age 27 on a 1-year flyer. They are about to have a recent DPOY at age 31 who had some health issues but none career threatening on an under 20% of cap space deal. We have not signed anyone else yet, not Gordon, not Wade, not even Noah.

      This is absolutely nothing like the Isiah debacle. You really have to have a “worst case is the most likely case” mindset (or some kind of fan’s PTSD) to see things as negatively as you do.

    156. Memphis ending up with both parsons and Conley seems not great at all and also totally great relative to The halfway house Memphis had been crashing toward

    157. FORP! Haha! We should come up with ratings. Wade has to be like 3.8 right now. Wade would be fine because I don’t think he’d sign more than a 1 year deal.

    158. wow it’s all coming in now….

      evan turner to portland(wow)… parsons to grizz.. noah to knicks…

    159. No Evans here.

      Woj: Free agent forward Evan Turner has reached agreement on a four-year, $75M deal with Portland, agent Kevin Bradbury tells @TheVertical.

      Spears: Evan Fournier gets a five-year, $85 million contract extension to stay in Orlando, source told @TheUndefeated.

    160. 4/75 for Evan Turner in Portland – Whatever else happens this offseason (and this could very well look like a steal next to whatever we end up doing at SG) at least we stayed away from this. What an ugly contract.

      5/85 for Fournier back to Orlando – This on the other hand is a pretty nice deal in the current environment.

      Somebody will surely leak the specifics on the Noah deal any minute now.

    161. This is absolutely nothing like the Isiah debacle. You really have to have a “worst case is the most likely case” mindset (or some kind of fan’s PTSD) to see things as negatively as you do.

      You like to respond to my posts, but I don’t think you fully understand them.

    162. Apparently Parsons signed with Memphis because of Conley….think we know where he’s going.

    163. I never understood you, Donnie, not since you f–ked up our team second only to Isiah and then slinked out of town.

    164. Wait, Fournier at 5/85 is good?

      Yes, he can shoot pretty well, decent creator. But wow is he bad defensively and does CONTRIBUTES nothing else. -.9 career BPM and -1.02 RPM in his “breakout” year.

      C’mon, man.

    165. Wait, Fournier at 5/85 is good?

      Yes, he can shoot pretty well, decent creator. But wow is he bad defensively and does CONTRIBUTES nothing else. -.9 career BPM and -1.02 RPM in his “breakout” year.

      C’mon, man.

      You left out the part where he’s 23 years old.

    166. “Knicks can’t stop gambling on injury-prone veterans: Assuming the Joakim Noah signing takes place, the Knicks may want to have their entire season sponsored by the Hospital for Special Surgery — as the hospital is doing for the summer-league squad.”

      No more injury concerns, guys. We have HSS in the house!!

    167. I really like fournier and would have really, really liked him on that deal. Seems like most of my faves are staying put. Speaking of gambling on health, f’kin’ Chandler Parsons?!?!

    168. Fourniers deal is fine….but if Evan Turner goes for 17.5M/year how the hell are we going to sign anyone to play the 2 for us along with Noah. I mean, you gotta think Courtney Lee will at least be fielding offers in the ballpark of that deal, if maybe for less years.

    169. “You left out the part where he’s 23 years old.”

      He’s a hybrid guard forward, too slow to guard shooting guards, too small to guard wings.

      Not exactly oozing athleticism. I mean, I suppose he can get better, but it’s not like we’re waiting for his skills to catch up to the rest of his game.

    170. So, we’ll soon be to the point where every team in the league has at least one player getting paid more than Melo.

    171. The Fournier contract is laughably ridiculous, until you see what Evan Turner and Timofey Mozgov get paid, and suddenly Evan Fournier looks surprisingly reasonable.

    172. “You left out the part where he’s 23 years old.”

      He’s a hybrid guard forward, too slow to guard shooting guards, too small to guard wings.

      Not exactly oozing athleticism. I mean, I suppose he can get better, but it’s not like we’re waiting for his skills to catch up to the rest of his game.

      I don’t think we differ much in terms of assessing his game but maybe just see the market slightly differently. The way I see it he doesn’t have to get much better for the contract to be fine. 17M looks like basically market value for an average starter given the prices we’re seeing fly around. Given the scarcity at SG I think he’s probably almost there already. So I see it as if he entirely fails to improve as he goes through his prime the contract is basically meh. They’ll maybe overpay slightly but it’s fine. If, however, he does improve at an age when on average players tend to, then there’s a lot of upside for the team.

    173. The Jowles, JK47s, and Donnie Walshes of Portlandblogger.net must be losing their respective lunches right now… One of the most fun and exciting young rosters is getting the Dolan treatment.

    174. No, I understand what you’re saying. I don’t understanding allocating market value resources to a barely above average SG with limited upside.

      I don’t think it’s an awful deal by any means. But good?

    175. Guess I see a bit more room for growth for him. Lets put it this way: It’s probably one of the top-10 least horrible looking contracts signed so far. Lol.

      38/4 for Delly. Average backup PGs going for >9M per season. Agree with SJK above that filling out the back end of the roster with even mediocre talent is looking awfully expensive for the Knicks at the moment. Somebody yesterday posted we might be interested in getting both Lee and Gordon – that’s probably like 25-30M per season of SG given what we’re seeing.

    176. God, I’m just sitting here staring at Woj’s twitter and updating hoopshype in dread for what we’re going to do.

    177. This is turning into a disaster. There’s almost no way we get Lance back at the mid-level either.

    178. I wouldn’t mind downsizing our hopes for a shooting guard if necessary. Dudley or E’Twaun Moore, along with Holiday, Galloway, maybe Crawford or Baker isn’t terrible. Can Solomon Hill play SG?

    179. We may not have picked the best summer in which to attempt to completely rebuild our entire roster through free agency (in fairness we apparently do this every summer now).

    180. Tyler Johnson is still out there and he’s my favorite young RFA wing or 1 (moreso than Crabbe, Fournier, Daniels, Clarkson). He offers the most complete package – hits 3s, high 2FG%, nice FTr, defends, double-digit dime %, plays 1 or 2. If we had kept Lopez/Grant, I’d have put a deal that averages 15m/yr on the table and make Riley match it. I might even have considered offering Lopez for Johnson. But even better would be to find the next Tyler Johnson who would be on exactly the same timetable as KP.

    181. Love the Johnson.

      Now there’s a guy who can crush value in the next couple of years on a market value contract. Spoelstra put him in the fire at pg and he really struggled. But I honestly think he could function really well in a split backcourt with Galloway in an up-tempo system.

      It wouldn’t make sense for the Heat to trade for Lopez though.

    182. It wouldn’t make sense for the Heat to trade for Lopez though.

      Yes I forgot to qualify that if Whiteside had gone to Mavs. We’d have had to hope that if Heat re-sign Wade that luxury tax in future years might scare Miami owner. I don’t think at this stage we have enough free cap to make an offer that Miami wouldn’t match.

    183. Oh man, this is nuts. The implications for the Knicks are pretty bad, since we traded away two of our three cost controlled players right before this all happened. Looks like Phil had no reading of the market.

    184. I believe that they’re holding off on announcing Noah’s numbers because he may be willing to donate some of it for a shooting guard. What a great Knick he is!

    185. So what does Turner’s deal mean for Leonard aka “Mega Bieber” aka “Blanco Frye” ?

    186. When I say playoffs, you say go
      “Playoffs”
      GO!
      “Playoffs”
      GO!
      GoNyGoNyGo!

      Donnie, I’ll quote you on that!

      Now that the numbers are coming in, are you all starting to understand that $18M is a discount for a starting center? We better start clearing cap space for 2019-20 when Zinger becomes an RFA.

    187. Now that the numbers are coming in, are you all starting to understand that $18M is a discount for a starting center?

      If $18M is a discount for a starting center, what does that make the $14M Robin Lopez was making?

    188. Whenever I’m feeling too happy I just click on this site and I’m back to normal again.

    189. Yeah, to not extract any real value out of Lopez and Grant except space is fucking horrible.

      But here we are. Yes, the off-season is still salvageable.

    190. If $18M is a discount for a starting center, what does that make the $14M Robin Lopez was making?

      Fair value. Noah is healthy and a healthy Noah is much better than Lopez.

    191. Wow, I didn’t realize Conley’s max was 5 years 153 mil. I knew it was high but I didn’t realize it was 31 mil a year high. This salary cap jump can not be understated.

      Irony here is Lebron will still be underpaid, this year and next even with the max.

    192. Whenever I’m feeling too happy I just click on this site and I’m back to normal again.

      You don’t even need to click on this site. Just close your eyes and think of the 2002-2016 New York Knicks (…and, come November you won’t even need to close your eyes:)

    193. So long as their is a cap Curry, Durant, Lebron perhaps Westbrook, maybe Leonard, will always be underpaid.

      But yeah, can one of the Berri folks name a signing that they like so far this off-season outside of Whiteside?

    194. Looks like we could have had 25yo Delly for 10m/yr (to Bucks for 9m/yr, Heat have indicated they won’t match). He could have guarded the 1 relieving Rose of that wear-and-tear and been a decent 3&D SG. Think I would have preferred that to Gordon or 30yo Lee.

    195. So thus far, we have essentially traded Calderon, RoLo, Grant, Afflalo’s space, DWill’s space, and Cle’s space for Noah, Rose, Holiday, and a #2 pick and the possibility of $21 mill more in cap space next year.

    196. Our current team:
      Starters: Melo, Rose, KP, Noah, Holiday(?)
      Bench: WillyH, KOQ

      Is that about right? Do we have 8 roster spots to fill? Gallo is on a QO but should get some kind of offer. Baker is an intriguing non-draftee. We’re still tinkering with $10-15 mill in cap space. Is that about right?

    197. Well Tobias traded away 23 yr old Tobias and then sign Jeff Green to a $15m deal? Thanks skiles. At least Green’s deal is only one year.

    198. That’s a good get for Atlanta. They needed more beef, especially if losing Horford.

    199. Right, so even at 48-50 TS Noah is a damn good player. Anything average or above he’s a great player.

      His DBPM was elite against last year.

      For 60 games a season?

      Let’s grant that Noah was a much better player at his peak than Lopez and probably still better now. So for 60 games a season we’ll get greater production than Lopez, but for 22 games a season we’ll have a bench player taking a slot getting worse production and we will pay several million more per season for the privilege. Not to mention that had we not made the trade we could have used Noah’s contract money for a high level SG and bench pieces.

      I’m not opposed to the Noah signing. I can live with that one. It’s the Rose trade I hate. But people are still not thinking the values and alternatives through properly.

    200. We’re much better at center and point guard already. Will hopefully improve at SG too. Plus KP’s maturation and Melo’s had more time to heal. Add Holiday plus Willy G and possibly Baker and a better coach in Hornacek and we’re already light years better. Some of you are myopic or just plain blind.

      Plus draft picks going forward! Thanks, Phil.

    201. Let’s grant that Noah was a much better player at his peak than Lopez and probably still better now. So for 60 games a season we’ll get greater production than Lopez, but for 22 games a season we’ll have a bench player taking a slot getting worse production and we will pay several million more per season for the privilege.

      And that’s granting that Noah is indeed a better player than RoLo now, which I’m not ready to accept as a fact. RoLo may not be a hugely sexy player, but he’s a solidly efficient scorer with a stable TS% above .575, and he’s durable, and he is well known as a guy who is very good at little things, like setting screens and boxing out. Lopez is also three years younger than Noah. If you compare their last four seasons in terms of WS48, they’re almost a wash:

      WS48, Brook Lopez
      Age 27 .126
      Age 26 .150
      Age 25 .176
      Age 24 .126
      Composite, last four seasons: .146

      WS48, Joakim Noah
      Age 30: .079
      Age 29: .130
      Age 28: .190
      Age 27: .145
      Composite, last four seasons: .152

      When you factor in age and durability, I think I’d probably rather have Lopez straight up, regardless of contract. Factor in the extra year and dollars of Noah’s contract and it’s even harder to justify the trade and signing. Noah, with his recent decline and injury problems, brings some “fall off the cliff” risk with him. Lopez is a pretty safe bet to keep chugging along for another few years.

    202. I’m not opposed to the Noah signing. I can live with that one. It’s the Rose trade I hate.

      We may have to look at the Rose trade and Noah signing as a package. I think it’s kinda obvious that the Noah contract was agreed to at the time of the Rose trade. Does Phil do the Rose trade if Noah is not joining the Knicks? Does Noah join the Knicks if Rose is not here? I’m not sure it’s fair to Phil to judge them independent of one another.

    203. @250 Brook Lopez stats definitely highly relevant. Thanks for the comparison

    204. Our current team:
      Starters: Melo, Rose, KP, Noah, Holiday(?)
      Bench: WillyH, KOQ

      Is that about right? Do we have 8 roster spots to fill? Gallo is on a QO but should get some kind of offer. Baker is an intriguing non-draftee. We’re still tinkering with $10-15 mill in cap space. Is that about right?

      I think Ron Baker is actually signed. Derrick Williams, Lance Thomas and Galloway are still hanging out. I thought we could probably re-sign all of them if we wanted to, but now I am not so sure. They may get great offers from elsewhere, given the market.

    205. I see a lot of complaining about the money we are paying players, but I am not so worried about that. To me, Phil has seemed relatively frugal. All the of the deals he’s done in the past that seemed expensive have proved to be reasonable values going forward. I suspect the same this time. I would also point out that a year ago or so Durant was coming off of two foot surgeries and people were wondering if he could come back. Now he’s the hottest free agent on the market. It’s possible we will get the good Derrick Rose this year, instead of the lousy one.

      The thing that rankled most about the trade was that instead of building slowly with youth, Phil is obviously going for it this year. I hated losing young players that I liked. But if we actually have a .500 team or so that is watchable almost all of the time, that’s what I’ve said I wanted. So I’m trying to learn to live with the new team.

    206. If Dwight signed with the Hawks, does that meant that Horford is gone? If so, Atlanta probably lowered their costs at center rather than raising them, which is weird in this market, but probably good for them.

    207. Let’s go get Wade. Come on, Phil-they told you that you need shooting in the modern game. Fuck that shit! We don’t need no stinkin shooting!

    208. If Solomon Hill is worth four years and $52 million, then how much is Lance Thomas worth?

    209. Things we never learn:

      1. As caps go up, so do salaries for players.

      2. Players and agents will always use the Knicks to add value.

      3. Many rumors are bullshit.

      4. Keeping young players is good, but letting go of ones without a great future sometimes is necessary to get something better.

    210. And that’s granting that Noah is indeed a better player than RoLo now, which I’m not ready to accept as a fact. RoLo may not be a hugely sexy player, but he’s a solidly efficient scorer with a stable TS% above .575, and he’s durable, and he is well known as a guy who is very good at little things, like setting screens and boxing out. Lopez is also three years younger than Noah. If you compare their last four seasons in terms of WS48, they’re almost a wash:

      Cherry picking. It is certainly up for discussion that Rolo was a better player the past 2 seasons when Noah was injured and it is a fair argument he may never return to health. However, it isn’t fair to compare the 2 players if Noah returns to any semblance of health. For example, they have played a similar number of games in their respective careers: Lopez 547 and Noah 572. Lopez has 34.0 total win shares while Noah has 57.3 ( 31.7 defensive win shares alone!).

      Plus with his great passing, Noah is the prototypical triangular center. It is a question of risk/ reward with his health.

    211. If Solomon Hill is worth four years and $52 million, then how much is Lance Thomas worth?

      The real question is if he is worth 52M, why didn’t his team exercise their 2.3M team option and trade him?

    212. NJ,
      I don’t think Phil is “going for it” per se. He definitely wants to field a playoff team, but no illusions about a contender.

      Even if the Rose deal doesn’t work out, there’s no “we shot the whole load, it’s back to square 1” aspect to the move. in 2017, we would have Noah vs. Lopez (prob a slight downgrade, but possibly a slighy upgrade), slightly less cap space, and Holiday and a #2 pick instead of Grant.

      Looking at the way things are playing out, odds are that we’d be only marginally improved from last year relative to other improving teams in the EC had we kept Lopez….once again, maybe a fringe playoff team. Maybe a middling first rounder next year, with RoLo on the books instead of Noah. Seriously, who do we get that has left their prior team that moves the needle all that much?

      Weth the Rose and Noah deals, there is at least a reasonable chance that we are significantly more than an 8th seed,a also more entertaining next year. There’s something to be said for that. Or we can suck and get a better opportunity in the draft.

    213. Just comparing WS/WP neglects all of the non box score ways Noah is a beast on defense, which is captured by multiple other metrics.

      I mean, WP has Kanter as a top 5 player.

    214. The real question is if he is worth 52M, why didn’t his team exercise their 2.3M team option and trade him?

      Yes, indeed. Another questionable decision was Jeff Green on the Clippers. The Clippers traded a first round pick for him last year, but only kept him for a year. Now he is gone. I don’t think that was worth it for him.

    215. The real question is if he is worth 52M, why didn’t his team exercise their 2.3M team option and trade him?

      They done fucked up.

    216. We don’t necessarily have to be worried. We will be really bad and we’ll have an excellent shot at the first pick in 2017. Rose will guarantee lots of losses with horrible efficiency and obscene usage. Maybe Noah plays well enough to be on the team when we’re good again or garners us another pick. Knicks are in the business of making money with a flop. Like “The Producers”. Dolan is Max and happy as long as there’s a marketing plan. Phil is Blume. Cooking the books and saving enough money for a nice little shopping spree after next years draft. I don’t think Noah ruins the plan and may also provide value over the life of his deal. I’d love to see one year deals going forward though.

    217. Z-man, good points. And I would love for us to be more entertaining this year than last. I am crossing my fingers. And we do still have four or five young guys on the team who could develop (Kp, Hernangomez, Baker, Holiday and maybe Galloway)

    218. And Bob, those wins shares probably don’t come close to capturing his defensive value.

    219. Melo better miss a significant amount of games if the Knicks are going to be one of the 2-3 worst team in the league.

    220. It would be way more useful if contracts were discussed in terms of % of salary cap rather than raw $, sort of a new advanced stat to easily compare contracts across years.

    221. betting on players with two straight years with sharp declines is not anywhere close to a reasonable chance… it’s the longest of long shots…. ppl seem to think that we might have 10% chance at getting vintage noah and rose… when it’s likely that it’s probably closer to 0% since it’s never actually happened….

      the reasonable chance is that they are passable nba starters next year…. but ‘reasonable’ does not equate to ‘likely’….. and that gets progressively worse the years after that esp in the case of noah and gordon since they will presumably get multiyear deals….

      nothing about this is sustainable and that has been the problem since the post ewing era….

    222. Noah’s rank at C by WP, which doesn’t capture his value:

      14-15 – 11th
      13-14 – 3rd
      12-13 – 2nd
      11-12 – 2nd

      Look, I understand you need to drag everything back to this tired ass argument, but at least try to be accurate?

    223. Look, we know how advanced stats work in Ruru world. If the advanced stat says Carmelo Anthony is good, then that stat is a valuable one. If the advanced stat says Carmelo Anthony is not really all that good, it’s a worthless stat.

    224. I doubt this is how it will go down, because Knicks, but if I’m Phil, I walk into that meeting with Noah and say look: we know how much you want to be on the Knicks, you even instagramed yourself wearing a Knicks hat. If you wanna be here and win, take less money so we can build a team around you, Melo, KP, and Rose.

    225. djphan.

      Who is saying vintage Noah, Rose?

      You are really willing to argue that there is NO precedent for players suffering statistical troughs due to injury and NEVER recovering to close to prime production?

    226. I never referenced his WP positional ranking. Does saying WP doesn’t capture his defensive value fall in the category of “not accurate”?

    227. Dwyane Wade to the Knicks makes so little sense that it’s probably inevitable.

    228. Yes, it is me offering the tired ass posts by pointing out the ideological framework used by the boards most consistent and dogmatic Berri posters is probably not entirely accurate, despite it being the exclusive way the board discusses anything.

    229. Seems to capture enough of it to know he’s one of the best centers in the game. Or he was, at least. That’s generally all I’m looking for from a box score metric.

    230. Man, Chandler Parsons must be one charming m-fer, that’s all I gotta say.

    231. I hope that we don’t forget our youth movement and leave at least a little money for Jamal Crawford.

      36 is the new 26.

    232. Funny, Dwade’s first season AFTER recovering from knee surgery was pretty putrid: 2007/8 .082 WS.

      So there’s one example off the top of my head.

    233. “Seems to capture enough of it to know he’s one of the best centers in the game. Or he was, at least. That’s generally all I’m looking for from a box score metric.”

      Huh?

      So, something to match your preconceived notion? I don’t get it.

    234. Dwyane Wade to the Knicks makes so little sense that it’s probably inevitable.

      He was awesome in 2011

    235. “ESPN sources say the Knicks have made a four-year offer to Courtney Lee, but Lee has a variety of suitors and is working through the options”

      Stein.

    236. ruru,

      i was mostly responding to this:

      Weth the Rose and Noah deals, there is at least a reasonable chance that we are significantly more than an 8th seed,a also more entertaining next year. There’s something to be said for that.

      that would require rose or noah to pretty much return to form….. and no that is not happening….

      just having two straight years of declines is not a death knell…. ppl have bounced back from a couple of rough years… but when there are signficant injuries involved there aren’t any examples… when ppl bounce back sucessfully they don’t really miss a beat.. when they come back and are signficantly worse… it means they’ve lost something that they are probably never getting back….

      and they’ve both had a full two years to demonstrate that they haven’t… is a third year and a change in scenery going to make a difference? probably not….

    237. Stein reporting Memphis is trying to clear cap space to sign Eric Gordon: link.

      Hopefully other teams can save us from our own stupidity.

    238. Courtney Lee is a fine basketball player but 4 years leaves me scratching my head.

    239. I think it’s fair to be skeptical that both, or either player reverts to even 85% of top form. The trend has been steeply down for both players, no doubt about it. However, there is a reasonable chance that both play well enough to make these transactions more than worthwhile. Their own circumstances must be taken into account.
      For example:
      1. Both players played for a franchise that self-imploded by blaming their lack of playoff success on a self-absorbed rigid coach who ran his players into the ground, and replacing him with a deer-in-the-headlights novice.
      2. Butler and Rose got in each other’s way, and Butler had rightfully usurped Rose as the team’s most celebrated player.
      3. Rose played like there was little wrong with him physically as a post-operative player. The trend there is towards improving, not declining, health.
      4. Rose was never TS%-dependent in order to be a highly effective player, and now has an entire playoff-less offseason to work on getting his game back to a higher level.
      5. Rose is in a contract year and just saw scrubs that couldn’t hold his MVP jock make a zillion dollars as free agents. Evan Turner, anyone?
      6. Noah is a rebounding, defending and passing C rather than a scoring C. Last year, he had career highs in rebounds/36 and in assists/36 and had more blocks/36 than he did in his DPOY year.
      7. Noah is known to be a highly intelligent, motivated, respected and vocal locker room guy. Leadership counts!
      8. After being benched last year, Noah has something to prove.
      9. Noah’s best stats were in December before his first shoulder injury, which was blown out shortly after his premature return. Probably a similar injury to the one Love just had a complete recovery from.
      So just looking at their most recent performance data misses lots of reasons why betting that the downward trend will continue or stabilize at a low level is hardly a sure thing. It’s a gamble, but not a bad one.

    240. What’s with D-Wade suddenly? Apparently he’s option-B??? How do we find $20M for him?

      @293 +1

    241. We’d have to trade O’Quinn to clear up space for Wade I think

      Which would be doubly disastrous, since O’Quinn is minimally a league average player on a 4 MILLION DOLLAR A YEAR CONTRACT

    242. Phil Jackson’s whole approach to assembling this roster and building a foundation for the future is just completely wrongheaded. At this point the actual moves he makes are almost irrelevant– he has chosen a course of shooting his wad on free agents on the wrong side of 30, and that choice is going to lead nowhere but to mediocrity and disappointment. So Courtney Lee, or Eric Gordon, what difference does it make? Whatevs, Phil, go for it.

      He has already made the terrible macro decisions that will be informing the micro decisions. This is not headed anywhere good. The Knicks might squeeze one decent year out of this group, maybe two if everything goes right, but the path to a championship is nonexistent, and by the time 2018-2019 rolls around and Porzingis is entering his prime the Knicks will be hamstrung with all sorts of broken down old veterans signed to albatross contracts.

      It’s just a dumb way to build a team, and I think it will fail. I want to win a championship some day, and there is nothing happening here that makes me think this team is anywhere in the vicinity of an NBA championship.

    243. I ask again. Has there been a signing, or prospective signing outside of Whiteside, that the Berri regulars like?

    244. I think Noah has a legit shot at being very productive next season. I’d be pretty surprised if Rose was good-he’s been awful or on the shelf for 4 years. I wouldn’t be shocked if he was better than he was last year, but 85% of his MVP season seems like a long shot. Also dude gets hurt all the time.

    245. “Phil Jackson’s whole approach to assembling this roster and building a foundation for the future is just completely wrongheaded.”

      Are you getting paid to repeat yourself?

    246. Apparently, we are competing with the Kings and the Timberwolves for his services. I can see him preferring the Knicks

    247. We’d have to trade O’Quinn to clear up space for Wade I think

      They could free up another $4.3M by trading Porzingis for a set of Alf pogs.

    248. Are you getting paid to repeat yourself?

      Why are you still here? Didn’t you make a pledge or something?

    249. Phil Jackson’s whole approach to assembling this roster and building a foundation for the future is just completely wrongheaded. At this point the actual moves he makes are almost irrelevant– he has chosen a course of shooting his wad on free agents on the wrong side of 30, and that choice is going to lead nowhere but to mediocrity and disappointment. So Courtney Lee, or Eric Gordon, what difference does it make? Whatevs, Phil, go for it.

      He has already made the terrible macro decisions that will be informing the micro decisions. This is not headed anywhere good. The Knicks might squeeze one decent year out of this group, maybe two if everything goes right, but the path to a championship is nonexistent, and by the time 2018-2019 rolls around and Porzingis is entering his prime the Knicks will be hamstrung with all sorts of broken down old veterans signed to albatross contracts.

      It’s just a dumb way to build a team, and I think it will fail. I want to win a championship some day, and there is nothing happening here that makes me think this team is anywhere in the vicinity of an NBA championship.

      Apparently we looked at what the Pelicans have done with Anthony Davis since they got him and said, “Yeah, that’s what we should do with Porzingis!”

    250. Can’t wait for Porzingis to leave in three years because his perennial loser of a team is hamstrung by mediocre veterans on long term deals

    251. “If Carmelo Anthony doesn’t re-sign with the Knicks and give them a substantial discount, I will leave Knickerblogger forever in disgrace, and never return.”

      I think that’s how the pledge went. Something like that.

    252. Let’s see:

      Andre Drummond is a good singing. Solomon Hill is an okay gamble. Uh, some other deals have been okay. Dwight Howard’s deal is alright. Noah is okay. Batum is okay. I can’t think of any deals that have really made me think someone is getting a steal.

    253. I’m just curious though, JK, like most of the board agrees with but you. JUST. DONT. STOP. saying the same thing OVER AND OVER AND OVER again.

      Are you trying to cleanse the board of anyone trying to find a positive spin?

    254. I ask again. Has there been a signing, or prospective signing outside of Whiteside, that the Berri regulars like?

      The money is throwing me for a loop. Fournier is all upside, Turner is so not good at basketball, and Dellavedova should give some of that money to LeBron, because LeBron earned it. Dellavedova is the new Mario Chalmers.

      Parsons, holy shit. Okay, that’s a bad contract. Turner too. Mosgov. Bad.

    255. I remember ruruland saying something like, “If Carmelo Anthony doesn’t re-sign with the Knicks and give them a substantial discount, I will leave Knickerblogger forever in disgrace, and never return,” but maybe I’m misunderestimating my own memory.

    256. ruru, you know you’ve won the argument when the other side would rather you weren’t here. Please stay.

    257. You like Howard at 23 a year all guaranteed?

      Interesting. There you have a 30-year-old injury-riddled player whose game has steeply and steadily declined for multiple years.

      He has significantly more miles than either Rose or Noah, for example, and is perhaps the league’s worst malcontent.

      He is going to replace a player who is younger, likely less expensive, statistically superior by every metric the last three years, with little injury history and reputed to be a good locker room prescence.

    258. “The money is throwing me for a
      loop. Fournier is all upside,
      Turner is so not good at
      basketball, and Dellavedova
      should give some of that money to
      LeBron, because LeBron earned it.
      Dellavedova is the new Mario
      Chalmers.
      Parsons, holy shit. Okay, that’s a
      bad contract. Turner too. Mosgov.
      Bad.”

      How can all of these guys be so much dumber than you?

    259. I ask again. Has there been a signing, or prospective signing outside of Whiteside, that the Berri regulars like?

      Jordan Clarkson @ $50M/4 and Lin @ $36M/3 are good deals. Whatever deal Durant signs with whatever team will be a good deal. Howard to ATL at $70M/3 isn’t bad either.

    260. “he has chosen a course of shooting his wad on free agents on the wrong side of 30, and that choice is going to lead nowhere but to mediocrity and disappointment.”

      As opposed to blowing the whole wad on FAs like Evan Turner? Jeremy Lin? Chandler Parsons? Mirza Teletovic? Solomon Hill? I mean, who changed teams that would be so much more of a guarantee at slightly less money than Noah is being paid?

    261. I dunno. Why did it take professional baseball scouts 90 years to figure out that batting average wasn’t a good predictor or descriptor of player production?

    262. Knickerblogger: Where The Optimists Actually Just Have Stockholm Syndrome

    263. I like the Lin signing as well. He has turned out to be a fairly durable and versatile combo guard. Good value at $12M AAV.

    264. Clarkson is fine-ish to me–that’s about the cheapest he was going to come I guess, though I think you’re betting on a pretty significant uptick in actual production. Lin is a good deal given the market. Wish it could’ve been us, if only for nostalgia’s sake.

    265. Meanwhile what the hell is Trader Danny doing up in Boston? Hoping Durant wants to join his squad of 7th men? Stockpiling draft picks nobody wants? Or maybe hoping Brad “Red Auerbach” Stevens can squeeze out a few more wins and get them to the 2nd round?

      Fuck the Celtics

    266. ruruland, if you’re suggesting that Horford is younger and cheaper than Howard, that won’t be true after Horford gets signed out of free agency. I’m pretty sure he’s expected to get a max offer.

    267. @293 – you list alot of reasons but weighing those factors ahead of the myriad of injuries rose has had is a bit foolhardy… rose is not the first player to be put in a shitty situation…. he’s not the first player to get hurt… hell he’s not the first player to have had setbacks with his injury….

      if you want to answer the question…. why is rose different? you might list those same answers… but to answer the question of whether he’ll do well next year… that requires a whole other set of answers…

      @299
      there weren’t other deals that moved the needle that much…. conley i thought would’ve been a great deal… and apparently most folks were more concerned about a 27 yo conley off a minor achilles injury than noah off of two injury plagued seasons….

      this time next year and most definitely in 2018 we would be killing ourselves for tying up 30mm in noah and lee…. and that’s the problem….

    268. Do I like the Howard deal? No. I think it’s okay. Could turn out to be a fair deal, could be kinda bad, or it could be a terrible 3 years. I wouldn’t have signed him, but at least it’s 3 years. They’d be paying Horford something like 150 million over 5 if they brought him back on a max deal. Say they got a discount and call it 140 million over 5-that’s not a good contract either.

    269. As opposed to blowing the whole wad on FAs like Evan Turner? Jeremy Lin? Chandler Parsons? Mirza Teletovic? Solomon Hill? I mean, who changed teams that would be so much more of a guarantee at slightly less money than Noah is being paid?

      There’s other things we can do with cap space besides sign free agents. Philly got an unprotected 1st and the right to swap 1st two more times with Sacramento all for taking Stauskas and 2 years of Landry and Thompson off their hands.

    270. with the cap, teams are required to spend min $85M, yes?
      saw post Rondo meeting with Bulls..

    271. with the cap, teams are required to spend min $85M, yes?
      saw post Rondo meeting with Bulls..

      The only thing that happens if a team is below the floor is that however much money below the floor they are gets split between the players on the team.

    272. In this new mega money world of free agency, they could’ve done much worse than Lee + Noah at those per year prices. But they better get a solid backup point guard asap.

    273. Memphis owner Robert Pera (which means money) posted an awesome GIF on Twitter

    274. I think we’re going to have a terrific center and shooting guard before tonight is through. Thanks, Phil!

    275. Denver, Dallas, Milwaukee, Chicago all willing to throw $20M + a year at Wade.

    276. On a positive note while I was reading the posts that sound all too familiar, Brandon Nimmo hit his first career home run and rounded the bases with a smile so big it looked like his face would break. Stuff like that is one of the things I like about sports.

    277. @308 – It’s what I said last night before the floodgates opened. The salaries were destined to be out of control.

      @324 –

      conley i thought would’ve been a great deal… and apparently most folks were more concerned about a 27 yo conley off a minor achilles injury than noah off of two injury plagued seasons….

      Well, Memphis liked him to the tune of 5 yrs/$153M. No way to match that.

      @333 –

      I think we’re going to have a terrific center and shooting guard before tonight is through. Thanks, Phil!

      It’ll be nice to have a solid starting 5!

    278. He has significantly more miles than either Rose or Noah, for example, and is perhaps the league’s worst malcontent.

      Ruru, this pretty darn disingenuous. The main reason he has “more miles” is because the other two have missed so many games.

      It’s like pitching someone buy your car that’s been nearly totaled because it has fewer miles than the well running, accident free alternative.

    279. I remember ruruland saying something like, “If Carmelo Anthony doesn’t re-sign with the Knicks and give them a substantial discount

      Funny enough, that’s exactly what Melo did by signing a 5 year deal

    280. all things considered if lee and gordon can save us from ourselves.. if we can leave this offseason with just noah as a bad contract then it’s not that horrible and i would consider that a win….

    281. I would have taken the 30/3 for Jared Dudley over the higher amount we are offering Lee or Gordon

    282. I’ve been reading this blog for a while, and this is my first time actually posting on here. But i’m surprised that you all don’t seem to like any of Phil’s moves so far (including the Rose trade)I’m pretty sure Noah will be a better player than Robin Lopez for the next two years, maybe three. Derrick Rose is on a one year deal. Well worth the risk compared to what we had, at the worst he’ll be those guys. I think we’ll get a good deal for a shooting guard by waiting, because the market has already dictated the price. End the end what else did you want Phil to do?

    283. End the end what else did you want Phil to do?

      These guys wanted whiteside and KD. Anything else would be shitted on.

      I’m pumped for the future of the team tho. You have KP and Willy, and our pick next year for the future

      And for next year I expect a top 4 seed

    284. Prob need to limit to 25-28 min for Noah to keep him healthy. 20 kin of center for KP.

    285. According to Ramona Shelbourne the Knicks have $11M left. Most will go to a shooting guard.

    286. I don’t think we can get Lee for just $11M. Gordon is more probable. Unless we can free up a little money by maybe moving O’Quinn for a backup PG or a pick?

    287. 1. Is all news broken on twitter these days? It’s like ESPN isn’t even covering free agency. I just had to sign up for twitter…any better sources? Best way to track free agency on twitter?

      2. Given all these other contracts, I have fast gone from quitting the Knicks if we sign Noah for more than one year to worrying that we are going to have to pay him more than 4/70

      3. Leave it to Phil to overpay for a guy to loose a negotiation to a guy who tweeted a photo of himself in a NYK cap in the middle of the negotiation.

      4. If it is Noah for 4/72 (18 AAV) which already announced contracts would you prefer over that? I only see Moore 4/34 (8.5 AAV) Batum 5/120 (24 AAV), Dudley 3/30 (10 AAV) and maybe Whiteside 4/98 (24.5 AAV) as better.

      5. At least Noah works his ass off, the big IFF is whether he can stay on the court, not his efficiency. He will be additive even at 18mm if he can stay healthy. For all those trashing him, I don’t think you ever watch him play our team. IIRC, he killed us last even last year.

    288. Begley is now saying that depending on how it’s structured, the Knicks could have up to $15M left.

    289. Can the deal be structured to be back end loaded (would be awesome to be payin Jo 30mm at age 35…)

    290. would be awesome to be payin Jo 30mm at age 35…)

      Hehe but what’s the cap gonna be?

    291. IIRC, he killed us last even last year.

      We sucked tho

      Seriously, Noah is a terrific player. It all comes down to how much is left in the tank.

    292. Yeah, what would Melo fetch in this market? 3 years/$100 mill?

      I think it’s more fair to criticize Phil’s negotiating skills/timing than his game plan. A better negotiator probably makes the Rose deal w/o including Grant. the Chandler deal w/o taking back Calderon, and th Melo deal w/o the NTC. Still, I am excited about a starting lineup of Melo, KP, Rose, Noah and a decent but not spectacular shooting guard, preferably one who can both hit 3’s and play perimeter D (Courtney Lee would be fine, and a reasonable chance that this is a breakout year for Galloway.)

    293. Gordon would be nicer I think as instant scoring off the bench. Lee (don’t call me Courtney) is more well rounded as a starter, better defense, rebounding, size and durability. Doesn’t need the ball to be effective.

    294. If KD signs with LAC, I am taking the season win under which will probably be set at something like 67.

      Wouldn’t be crazy for KD to take a discount to play on a 1 year contract there, PO for second year at a big bump. He’ll opt out and sign a max 4 year deal next year.

      Z-Man — agree 100pct

    295. Here’s something to make everyone feel a little better about the Noah deal. The NBA salary cap stood at around $58 million for several years (call it the Amare/Carmelo era) and is now at $94 million and will be $107 million in 2017-18. This creates a multiplier of 0.617 for this year and .542 for next year.

      As such, Noah’s $18 million annual salary for the upcoming season in “Amare dollars” is $11.1 million and the year after that will be $9.75 million. Compare that to Chandler’s $14 million per year at that time…seem more reasonable now?

    296. @ 358

      Cap projections (cap/luxury tax) per the NBA:
      2017-18: $107 million/$127 million
      2018-19: $105 million/$126 million
      2019-2020: $106 million/$129 million
      2020-2021: $112 million/$136 million

      A heavily backloaded contract could be a serious problem in a couple years. However, the CBA is up for negotiation next year as well. I don’t know that anyone has any real idea of what that is actually going to mean for the overall cap or the structure of contracts but there will likely be a lockout of some duration next summer. NBAPA doesn’t seem super interested in increasing the players cut of the pie but they are very interested in increasing what counts towards the pie (preventing owners from sheltering profits by broadcasters ponying up equity in their companies in liu of cash for broadcast rights as an example) as well as restructuring contracts for rookies and non-vets (where ‘vets’ primarily means UFAs) to make them less exploitative. That might mean that it would be a really good idea to sign young promising guys to longer contracts this summer to potentially lock in more value long term and to be wary of handing out bigger contracts to older guys who aren’t amazing because the market structure could be opening up. Either way the cap increase we’ve got this year and next is just a blip, not a sustained function.

    297. Backup point guard might need to be mid-level exception.

      Knicks don’t have the midlevel exception.

    298. Yeah, so I figure as long as we keep our first round picks then this will work out fine. Please just don’t trade that shit away.

    299. Yeah, so I figure as long as we keep our first round picks then this will work out fine. Please just don’t trade that shit away.

      That’s what I been saying

    300. there’s still a chance that there will be another amnesty provision if the structure changes significantly… it’s an easy sell because a)most teams desperately need it… b)players have more freedom on where they end up…

    301. Just watched a clip of Ron Baker on day 2 of practice. He was breaking ankles, always had his head up and making outside shots. We may have something here as his defense is reported to be good. But no stats to use so he can’t be any good.

    302. Just watched a clip of Ron Baker on day 2 of practice. He was breaking ankles, always had his head up and making outside shots. We may have something here as his defense is reported to be good.

      I imagine this is how coaches talked themselves in to Bargs’ abilities also.

    303. I would have taken the 30/3 for Jared Dudley over the higher amount we are offering Lee or Gordon

      Yeah it’s strange we never heard his name and Knicks in same sentence since he’s a better player than both of them. It probably means one of 2 things: (1) after his Melo comment, Dudley felt it would be too awkward for him to be on the same team as Melo (2) Melo didn’t want him on the team. I hope it’s not (2), because instead of Melo’s wild goose chase of KD, he should have been recruiting Dudley.

    304. I was really down on the Noah deal last night, but after seeing what’s going on, I’m more on board with it. It would be nice to have only gone 2 guaranteed years, but someone somewhere would have given him 4 guaranteed years, maybe even at a bigger salary.

      Look around the league; still lots of teams flush with cash and can’t get anyone to take it. The idea that Phil was negotiating against himself is bogus. I’ll take Noah’s deal with all its risks over Mozgov’s or Howard’s. Sorry, but Howard is a clown.

      With Hernangomez also coming over, the Knicks really need to manage minutes carefully to try to minimize the great risks for injury. Give Willy and KP about 20 min. per game at C to try to keep Noah healthy and fresh. Thank God that Rambis is not the HC. Can you imagine!?

      Noah, Hernangomez and hopefully Lee also sound like really good guys, getting a bit back to the “culture” that Phil talked about.

      If the SG ends up Gordon, I hope it is to bring him off the bench like reub proposed. Again, he’s an excellent shooter, but not much else and also tends to get hurt alot. I’m not sure who’d start. What the heck, start Baker!
      :-)

    305. 70+ games each of Noah and Porzingis guarantees a top 10 defense, so there’s that.

      It’s really this Derrick Rose problem that mucks everything up. It’s going to be very difficult to make up for his inability to play good basketball.

    306. @379
      I really don’t like Rose either, but Noah came here to BE with Rose. So, that’s why roses have thorns!
      :-)

      RE Nimmo as someone else has said. The kid has done nothing since his callup but grin from ear to ear. Nice to see the enthusiasm some kids have with just making it to the bigs… I hope he can keep hitting and stick, b/c Granderson is toast.

    307. Sweet Lavor, we know what’s coming

      Noah come out the gate playing at a high level. Leads to more minutes being played chasing wins we just don’t quite get. 30 games in he suffers another season ending shoulder injury. Desperate to unload his contract and to find a star to pair with Melo in the last year of his deal the Knicks trade the 3rd pick + Noah to Toronto in exchange for DeMar Derozen. Noah wins comeback player of the year award for the champion Toronto Raptors

    308. Carmelo contract is really looking like a bargain. We should be happy we are paying an Olympian, all star, superstar, and a my native with that mega max deal. We hated that deal but what if we save that cap space and the money will go to the like of parsons, Fournier or whoever else. I’m happy with the Melo contract right now and maybe Phil knows what he’s doing.

    309. For Noah, o guess everyone will be overpaid but I hope Phil will do 1 to 2 years please. Then for sg lets get a bargain. Crawford, or eric Gordon but please for a bargain. Or maybe we can get the likes of Gerald green. Or get someone from dleague like Ray parks and yes jimmy f for sg.

    310. It’s funny how there’s so much conversation about who the starting SG should be while we ignore the fact that we have a cost-controlled player who has similar productivity stats to the decidedly more expensive free agents we’re gunning for. He will likely also perform better than before given that he’s older and would have a more defined role that asks him to do less.

      What I’m saying is: Why not let Galloway start at SG? Phil/Hornacek won’t do it, but I’d be interested to hear why exactly we need to sign a starting SG when we have a decent-ish one waiting in the wings from the people convinced that we do need one.

    311. What I’m saying is: Why not let Galloway start at SG?

      Sure that’s fine. We still need another wing or 2.

    312. Well we still need a backup SG and someone to play and backup PG for when Rose misses a minimum of 20 games. Also, that may give us the worst shooting team in NBA history.

    313. Austin Rivers would actually be one of the better guards on the team if we signed him. I wish I were kidding.

    314. Phil should ditch the lee thing and tell wade we’ll give him the rest of our cap this year for a 1 year and tell him if gets CP3 and LeBron to come next year we’ll resign him for the championship run of the banana boat.

    315. Austin Rivers would actually be one of the better guards on the team if we signed him. I wish I were kidding.

      Fuck him and his face tho.

    316. Being a recent UNC graduate if we sign Austin Rivers I’m just gonna have to turn the TV off when Rivers and Plumlee come off the bench so I don’t have to deal with the weird feels and cognitive dissonance that rooting for them would entail

    317. I know I’m going to be yelled at for being a Phil Hater, but I would just like to state that good teams do not sign old players to long guaranteed contracts with their fingers crossed that there is an amnesty provision granted to them somewhere down the road.

    318. @ruru, there is only one dave berri acolyte who posts here regularly anymore — Mr. Jowles. Other guys may mention WP but it’s generally not cited as anything conclusive or even superior to other all-in-one metrics. Most of the rest of the people here criticizing these moves are mostly just coming from the perspective of–

      A) traditional FA acquisitions (i.e. established players) don’t help you build that core of cheap talent that is the foundation of any sustainably great team. By eating minutes and being on a shorter timeline, these players hurt your chances of that since they block you from experimenting with less established players and eat cap space that could go towards signing less established players who have a chance of becoming values on top of their salaries. even if that chance is small, it’s better than no chance at all.

      B) Former stars like Rose and Noah get paid all the time based on their brand power and on the idea that they can get back to their old selves. I mean, the Knicks have a collection of mistakes like these that account for a a lot of their problems in the 21st century. It doesn’t tend to work out well.

      As far as the mileage on Howard goes, again, the better buy eight days a week is the Lexus with 150k miles and a few minor problems that mostly seem fixed over the Jaguar with 80k miles and a smoking engine and leaking oil.

      One other point in response to what you continue to bring up — the idea that there are no good options this FA period. that may be the case thanks to the giant cap leap (more the leap than the actual cap figure). If it is, then maybe this is a year where tanking makes good, practical sense. that doesn’t mean that FA is always pointless for bad teams or that bad teams should always or even often consider tanking.

    319. @399 – Lance may turn out to be a bargain in the midst of this Free Agent Feeding Frenzy

    320. [hears PTA has disbanded; Noah signed to 4/$72M]

      [jumps out plate glass window]

      But seriously, on the bright side–

      [is heaped with scorn & pelted with rotting produce by Knickerblogger townsfolk]

      Sorry. On the “infinitesimally not abjectly horrible” side, I have a soft spot for passing big men, and Noah is a true point center. Spacing is a question mark until the Knicks decide on their incoming wing, but I look forward to a lot of sequences where the offense will hum.

      Robin Lopez slowly improved at catching the ball in the pinch post as the season progressed. But it was still going from “paralyzing, pants-shitting fear” to “made correct pass after 5 seconds of thinking about it.” I don’t think we’ll need Noah’s scoring outside of garbage baskets. We all enjoyed Lopez’s random 20 point games where his ugly duckling hook shot was the only offense NY had working, but if they’re relying on Lopez or Noah to keep them in the game, it’s already a lost cause.

      Triangle Noah + Dad Melo = serious ball movement potential. KP will get so, so many dunks and layups.

      I don’t ask for much, I just want fun, halfway respectable basketball again.

      Now if it’s Eric Gordon coming in, we may have more grieving ahead of us yet.

    321. PS: For the love of all that is good, I request a moratorium on the sports gambling talk. My god, it’s the same as bragging about your fantasy team. Please consider contributing more shitposts and dank memes instead.

    322. EDIT FOR READING COMPERHENSION: I saw Lance and didn’t see Stephenson. Sigh. Talking about Thomas obviously.

      Apparently Lance has been contacted by around 10 teams including the Knicks. Considering the available FAs and the fact that nearly every team has their own Scrooge McDuck money tower this summer I suspect he’s gonna get paid fairly well. If he sustains his 3pt% next season he’ll be the 3 and D wing we should have gone after.

    323. So our core for the next few years will be:
      Melo-Noah-KP for sure and possibly [-DRose]
      Not so bad

    324. Disappointing.

      I think i would have been happy just by signing dellavedova and standing pat. We just threw all the continuity this team could’ve had. Robin Lopez was a good value at C, and we just had to improve the guard positions. I understand the upside of Rose and Noah, but I think we will see Rose missing midrange jumper after midrange jumper because he no longer wants to go to the rim, meanwhile Noah turns the ball over in some of the most inexplicable ways.

    325. Comparing our recent signings to the rest[mozgov,hill…] i feel more than fine.
      Health will definitely make us all freedivers[by holding our breaths in every play] but what the heck…
      An exciting season is on the way !
      Let’s enjoy it !

    326. @408

      meanwhile Noah turns the ball over in some of the most inexplicable ways.

      That’s not a good criticism of Noah. Players who handle the ball more oalso turn it over more. You probably remember Noah committing more turnovers than the average big man.

      In any case, he’s one of the top 3 leaders in AST/TO for PF’s and C’s in the NBA over the past 3 seasons. Noah, Griffin, and Green are in the same tier of passers.

    327. As for our most obvious fears:
      IF the ankles of Steph had been broken everybody would have accused gstate’s gm for letting Monta go, the warriors would have been just a good team and the history & the evolution of the nba would have been much different.
      Basketball Goddess named “Health” had other plans…
      Let’s hope that she’ll give DRose/Noah a break too

    328. http://basketball.realgm.com/analysis/242587/Grading-The-Deal-Joakim-Noah-Signs-$72M-Contract-With-Knicks

      This seems fair, I think C- is a fair grade for Noah’s acquisition. I think the criticism of Noah’s abject uselessness on the perimeter is valid.

      The one thing that I will say might change the grade to a C+ or B- even if Noah does not produce like he did in 2013-14 is the “Rasheed Effect” that Noah will have on the team. My biggest criticism of Melo is that for all of his gifts, he can’t be the “brain” of a contending team. He needs to be surrounded by veteran leaders like Radheed , Jadon Kidd, Kurt Thomas, etc. Noah is that kind of player…vocal, unselfish, high b-ball IQ…a coach on the floor, if you will. You are not gonna get that from Mozgov, and only somewhat from Lopez. That kind of intangible stuff has value.

    329. Playing for under 5millions a year looks like slavery in todays’ nba…

      World economic crisis my a$$

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