Edwards’ new mailbag includes a question from some jabroni:
If Brown plays 10 guys, who’s the 10th? — @sepinwall.bsky.social
Before he was fired by the Sacramento Kings last season, Brown seemed to play seven or eight guys for heavy-to-good minutes and then hand a few other players spot minutes. I’d be surprised if Brown played 10 regulars on a nightly basis, but it’s also possible that is something the suits want him to do and was a selling point for the job.
For the sake of your question, here is the players on the roster currently who will certainly play every night if healthy: Jalen Brunson, Karl-Anthony Towns, OG Anunoby, Josh Hart, Bridges, Miles McBride, Mitchell Robinson, Jordan Clarkson and Guerschon Yabusele. I feel confident in saying Brown will, at the very least, use a nine-man rotation to begin the season. It’s possible he extends it to 10, and that may depend on who the Knicks sign with the veteran-minimum contract they have available to use. The team could still use a more traditional, veteran backup point guard. It’s also possible that Brown gives a youngster like Pacôme Dadiet some of the spot minutes like he gave to Alex Len while in Sacramento.
As of early August, though, my gut tells me that Brown will use a nine-man rotation made up of the list I provided above.
Again, Edwards doesn’t seem that plugged in and his speculation can be off. Later in the same mailbag, he says he thinks Brown will do the double-big starting lineup, with Yabu backing up both frontcourt spots. We’ll see, I guess.
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More and more, despite my reservations, I like the idea of Simmons with the last veteran minimum spot.
Mainly because of his versatility. The lack of offense is a problem and yes, he probably becomes unplayable in the playoffs at some point, but so did Cam Payne after one good quarter in game one against Detroit.
But his versatility, size, defense and playmaking make him a very intriguing regular season minute soaker guy for when injuries inevitably happen.
He can basically play all 5 positions and can handle PG duties if necessary. So if any one of our main guys goes down, he can sub in for them. He might have nights he does not play at all and that might be what is holding him back from playing with us. But he can be plugged in anywhere and that is very useful during the regular season.
And there is the potential for a high reward with him.
Shamet, Wright, Brogdon…all of them would fill a useful role but would leave us short at another position.
edwards is also not that great at grammar for a guy who writes for a living: “here is the players on the roster currently who will certainly play every night if healthy”
how about an 11-man rotation such as okc often uses?:
starters: brunson (34) bridges (30) anunoby (32) towns (34) robinson (24)
dynamic bench: mcbride (20) hart (18) yabusele (16) clarkson (12) hukporti (12) dadiet (8)
the rest: mccullar kolek beauchamp diawara
have two of anunoby robinson mcbride on the floor at all times except for of course blowout minutes thats where mccullar kolek beauchamp diawara come into play
I think Simmons would have a shot at minutes, though it gets pretty tight when you actually pencil it out.
He’d be, by far, the most viable traditional “point guard” among the Brunson backup options (I know Kolek has his fans here but if you can’t crush it in summer league at 24 you don’t pass the “viable” prong). Clarkson and Deuce can nominally play the position, but force you to either lower your playmaking ambitions or get playmaking from other positions.
Weirdly enough, according to BRef Simmons has literally never played PF in the NBA. I think this is misleading though, as he’s often classified as the nominal “point guard” in a lot of lineups with different primary ball handlers like Butler and Harden.
He’s also often been the tallest guy in lineups without being classified as a center. One of LA’s better lineups (SSS obviously, 80 possessions) was Simmons-Harden-Bogdanovich-Batum-Jones, for example.
So if you think he can give you both backup point guard and backup big minutes, your 10-man rotation would look something like this:
A few things jump out that make you question how realistic this is:
-Did Clarkson come here to get ~10 guaranteed minutes per game?
-Is Hart okay with going from leading the NBA in MPG to being guaranteed ~26?
-Do we want to make sure Deuce has a bigger role come hell or high water?
The fact that it’s hard to work Simmons in for even 10 minutes a game is likely the holdup with him right now, since I don’t think him getting more than the vet-min is realistic.
Of course, every NBA team has a “what we’d do given 100% health” plan that tends to get punched in the proverbial mouth, so a lot of this minutes based agita would likely become a first-world problem we’d be longing to have by January.
Not sure you can sell Simmons on “you’ll have a role when there are inevitably injuries,” though.
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I know it’s the offseason but I still think we’re above penciling in Pacome Dadiet for fully healthy rotation minutes.
yeah i have dadiet penciled in for 8 minutes (2 at sf and 6 at sg) after people implored me to stop including wright btw your center minutes only add up to 46
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In my opinion, there is a near-zero chance that either of Kolek or Dadiet crack the rotation unless there is a spate of injuries. Beyond garbage time, they will likely be second-quarter minutes eaters and will see loads of DNP-CDs. However, if one of Brunson, Deuce, or Clarkson goes down, I could see Brown giving Kolek a trial by fire unless there is a rotation-caliber PG like Simmons or Brogdan on the bench. Same with Bridges, OG, or Hart…one of them would have to miss considerable time for Dadiet to have any chance of seeing consistent minutes. Now that calculus can change if either guy shows out in preseason, where they will both get good looks.
Huk has the best chance of seeing more than token minutes because Mitch (minutes and fouls), KAT (defense and fouls), and Yabu (defense and undersized) all have issues at the 5. He has a chance to be a very solid backup, as he showed just before his knee cartilage gave way. Given the situation with Mitch’s contract, he probably has a small but legit chance of convincing Brown/Leon that Mitch is expendable for cap purposes.
I just don’t see us winning the Simmons bidding contest because of the minutes issue, he would clearly get ample playing time on a team like the Celtics. Same with Brogdan. My guess is that we wind up with one of the guys that was on the roster last year.
Frankly, once the dust settles (10-20 games in) I don’t see much chance of Brown playing a 10-man “rotation” unless you consider the 10th guy as a token “situational” player that provides load management and will vary from game to game.
If Dadiet sees minutes, it’ll just be the brass looking to squeeze in game experience here and there.
A couple minutes every other game should be doable.
I interpret “the suits want to play 10 guys” as nothing more than “Dolan took Mikal’s side after his whining because he (Dolan) is still infatuated by the way that he (Dolan) “pried him (Mikal) away” from the crosstown “rival.””(*)
The “idea” won’t last the preseason.
(*) See, e.g., Dolan’s self-congratulatory “and they’ll all be together for several seasons” podcast.
Simmons has zero upside for the playoffs, so the idea of him, while interesting from an X’s and O’s standpoint, is a non-starter for me.
Why use a roster spot on him when you know you can’t trust him to shoot the ball or even attempt to score in a critical moment in an elimination game? At least Jared Jeffries went for the layup.
ive got huk penciled in for 12 minutes at center (mitch 24, kat 12 have the other center minutes)
The idea that KAT will only see 12 mpg at C seems pretty far-fetched to me.
I interpret “the suits want to play 10 guys” as nothing more than “Dolan took Mikal’s side after his whining because he (Dolan) is still infatuated by the way that he (Dolan) “pried him (Mikal) away” from the crosstown “rival.””(*)
The “idea” won’t last the preseason.
(*) See, e.g., Dolan’s self-congratulatory “and they’ll all be together for several seasons” podcast.
Interesting spin coming from KB’s most ardent Thibs detractor.
I would have expected something like “Mikal was the only player with both the gravitas and balls to openly challenge Thibs and go over Thibs’ buddy Leon’s head to get Dolan to intercede and do the single best thing to improve the team’s chances of winning a title during the Brunson window. That in and of itself makes the overpay worth it!”
22 minutes of kat at pf for a total of 34 minutes i think its at least cromulent
Wouldn’t the Celtics have to make a trade to free up a roster spot at this point to hire Simmons?
Per Begley, right now the Hornets’ Chris Jent is in the lead for the offensive assistant position.
I also like the Simmons idea in part because he can play multiple positions, but I especially like him substituting for Hart assuming Hart remains a starter. If he substitutes for Hart, we retain Hart’s excess rebounding and playmaking, probably improve on defense and the cost in spacing is less severe than if he was substituting for a shooter. None of it is ideal if we really want to play 5 out, but Simmons at the minimum is a steal because he’s versatile and does several things at a plus level. He and Clarkson together might work also because Simmons defends and Clarkson likes to chuck at his .54 TS%. 😉
Per Begley, right now the Hornets’ Chris Jent is in the lead for the offensive assistant position.
“In the lead” is probably a bit misleading. It’s more like he’s the only one left that may be willing to take the job.
I would have expected something like “Mikal was the only player with both the gravitas and balls to openly challenge Thibs and go over Thibs’ buddy Leon’s head to get Dolan to intercede and do the single best thing to improve the team’s chances of winning a title during the Brunson window. That in and of itself makes the overpay worth it!”
Yes, but Thibs is gone now so Lil Penny needs a new target to bash daily.
Adding to the speculation about lineups and minutes, my guess as to minutes distribition in reasonably competitive games, assuming a 9-man rotation and allowing for some cameos from players on the deep bench:
PG: Brunson 34, Deuce 14
SG: Bridges 20, Clarkson 20, Deuce 8
SF: Bridges 14, Hart 20, OG 14
PF: KAT 12, OG 18, Yabu 10, Hart 8
C: Mitch 24, KAT 20, Yabu 4
I could definitely see Huk playing 5-10 mpg at the cost of minutes at C for the other guys, but mostly see him as a foul trouble-injury-load management guy unless he really shows out.
Interesting spin coming from KB’s most ardent Thibs detractor.
There are players in the association I’d take over Thibs. The current version of Mikal Bridges is manifestly not one of them.(*)
Blaming other people is the psychological equivalent of physically defaulting to the mid-range areas and shots that no one cares about. Clear symbol that a player knows deep down that he’s slipping and he’s trying to cope and salvage.
(*) Similarly, there are at least some basketball reasons ranking somewhere between acceptable and compelling to have moved on from Thibs. “He hurt Mikal Bridges’s feelings by asking a lot of him” is not one of them.
you:
PG: Brunson 34, Deuce 14
SG: Bridges 20, Clarkson 20, Deuce 8
SF: Bridges 14, Hart 20, OG 14
PF: KAT 12, OG 18, Yabu 10, Hart 8
C: Mitch 24, KAT 20, Yabu 4
pretty close! seems we differ the most on you having more minutes for clarkson and hart
Yes, but it’s weird to spend years harping on thibs playing players too many minute and then say that a player was whining when he brought up the fact that the starters were playing too many minutes.
Mikal played the most minutes in the league last year. He played 139 minutes more than the number two player….Josh Hart.
But yes, call him a whiner.
Apropos of absolutely nothing except it slightly amused me and I’m desperate to avoid work, I saw this headline just now and read:
“Judge tosses…”
And I’m thinking, “…ball into stands and brains little girl” or something equivalent, but then it turns out to be:
“…1983 NC State team’s suit vs. NCAA.”
Whatever the psychobabble you are deciding to conjure out of your perpetually sour view of anything Knicks, the bottom line is that if Mikal was the match that lit the dynamite under Thibs’ seat, the net result is a massive positive development, as you have stated a million times for the record that a championship under Thibs was a virtual impossibility. However, it seems like your take now is that Mikal is so bad compared to his acquisition cost/contract extension that whatever benefit was gained by replacing Thibs with Brown is more than lost in opportunity cost/personnel degradation.
Shocker!
my conjecture vs zmans (numbers assume mine as the baseline and are thus compared to zs):
compared to me basically z has hart and deuce playing at the expense of huk and clarkson playing at the expense of dadiet hes also got og playing a lot more at pf whereas i have him at sf
Like sands through the hourglass, routine bites hard, and ambitions are low.
indeed clarence indeed these are the days of our lives have a great day
your perpetually sour view of anything Knicks,
I have no such view. I’m very positive about Jalen Brunson and Karl-Anthony Towns. They’re two very, very good basketball players.
However, it seems like your take now is that Mikal is so bad compared to his acquisition cost/contract extension that whatever benefit was gained by replacing Thibs with Brown is more than lost in opportunity cost/personnel degradation.
My “take” is that well-run basketball organizations don’t cater to the likes of Mikal Bridges and certainly don’t make any important decisions based on the likes of Mikal Bridges.
It’s also no secret that I think the Knicks are unfortunately fighting a big headwind with their ownership. Can it be overcome? Sure, it’s conceivable. But it’s a big headwind nonetheless.
Indeedily, Knicks 2025.
My “take” is that well-run basketball organizations don’t cater to the likes of Mikal Bridges and certainly don’t make any important decisions based on the likes of Mikal Bridges.
Your take is based on your own conjecture and nothing that can actually be confirmed.
The idea that James Dolan views Mikal Bridges in the same light that he viewed Melo is preposterous.
Can it be overcome?
It has been overcome. We’ve made the playoffs 4 out of the last 5 years, have made the conference semi-finals 3 times in the last 3 years and have just gone to the ECF for the first time in 25 years.
you don’t need a benevolent owner to win an NBA title.
We’re going to find out pretty soon if Mikal’s lackluster play was related to Thibs, or if he’s now just a midrange jump shot machine who makes a free throw attempt once a week. I’m hoping to see at least some better play, because the guy we got last year is quite plainly not worth the money we are now paying him.
Maybe it was a weird fit with Thibs. Getting better and more optimized play from Mikal should be a high priority item on Mike Brown’s to-do list.
“I’m very positive about Jalen Brunson and Karl-Anthony Towns. They’re two very, very good basketball players.”
Well, offensive basketball players, anyway. Leon’s incredible foresight in betting that Brunson would become a “tentpole” as you like to call it should have won some points with you. He also found a way to bamboozle Minny into taking noted albatross and playoff choker Julius Randle as the centerpiece of a trade for that non-fraud all-NBA player. Or did Dolan force Leon into those deals? Was it Leon’s idea to trade the farm for Mikal or Dolan’s? Is your take seriously that Dolan told Leon to “pry Mikal away” from the Nets by giving them whatever wasn’t nailed down? (Never mind, just making shit up for the hell of it. Seems fitting.)
“My “take” is that well-run basketball organizations don’t cater to the likes of Mikal Bridges and certainly don’t make any important decisions based on the likes of Mikal Bridges.”
Well, your “take” is based on the most puposely ugly reading of the situation that one could possibly make. You are essentially saying that Dolan couldn’t care less what his #1 cash cow (Brunson) thinks, and has Mikal’s “whining” ahead of him in the pecking order. You are also stating that Mikal’s “whining” is all about a conscious attempt to hide the fact that he knows he’s in decline and that a coaching change hid what he knows deep down to be the truth from surfacing before he could garner a lucrative extension. Man, Mikal must be one shrewd, ruthless, backstabbing scumbag! (or is that just you projecting your own MO into his shoes? I wonder if Mikal dons a WWLPD rubber bracelet to help him remember those core values: disguise your incompetence and stab your immediate supervisor in the back while sucking up to an egomaniacal owner in order to lock up a long-term deal before word gets out, even taking a pittance below the max to look magnanimous in the press!)
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Simmons has zero upside for the playoffs,
I think this widely repeated pearl of groupthink needs examination.
Simmons was unable to participate in the Clippers Nuggets series. That doesn’t mean he can’t play in the playoffs. Those were two of the five best teams in the postseason, and that could have been a conference finals in most years.
The Ben Simmons of last year could absolutely come off the bench and play against the second unit of the Chicago Bulls in round 1 of the East playoffs. He can probably play in a round 2 series in the East, too.
Leon’s incredible foresight in betting that Brunson would become a “tentpole” as you like to call it should have won some points with you.
He didn’t have such “foresight.” Everything above consensus expectation was an accident.
That said, I’ve given him props multiple times for using his connections and JB’s history with the organization to get him in here. Well done, Leon.
Is your take seriously that Dolan told Leon to “pry Mikal away” from the Nets by giving them whatever wasn’t nailed down?
My take is that Dolan made it clear that the time for hoarding draft picks was over and the time to spend draft picks on the proverbial “superstar” was nigh. That’s number one. Number two is likely something along the lines of Leon giving Dolan a list of possibilities, Mikal being on the list, and Dolan salivating and making it clear he very much liked that possibility. Number three is that part of the reason Dolan very much liked that possibility was that in his mind it would be a way to “stick it to” Brooklyn.
None of this is really controversial. Not sure why you keep scoffing at this so much; it’s helpful for Leon’s reputation.
Well, your “take” is based on the most puposely ugly reading of the situation that one could possibly make.
“Ugly”? Kind of overwrought, don’t you think.
My conceptualizing and proselytizing, in large measure, boils down to:
1. If you’re a star, you have wide berth and latitude to whine or do pretty much whatever you want just so long as you keep producing at star level.
2. If you’re meh, or average, or a star only in your own mind, it’s pretty much shut up and dribble.
I think this widely repeated pearl of groupthink needs examination.
It started with a Clippers fan friend of Alan and has taken on a meaning and import beyond all reason.
I interpret “the suits want to play 10 guys” as nothing more than “Dolan took Mikal’s side after his whining because he (Dolan) is still infatuated by the way that he (Dolan) “pried him (Mikal) away” from the crosstown “rival.””(*)
I don’t know about the second part but all signs point to you being right about Bridges’ complaints finding a very sympathetic ear in Dolan.
If Mikal was whining about too many minutes, then what’s it called when you don’t play professional basketball at all but complain about Thibs playing players too many minutes for 500 days in a row? Asking for a friend….
He didn’t have such “foresight.”
And yet he signed Brunson and Brunson became a tentpole. If he didn’t have foresight into that being a possibility, then the Nuggets didn’t have any foresight when they drafted Jokic or The Bulls when they drafted Butler. In fact, if Leon had no foresight about this potential Brunson leap, then no GM ever should be credited when they draft or sign a player who then exceeds expectations.
If you’re meh, or average, or a star only in your own mind, it’s pretty much shut up and dribble.
And if you’re a random poster on a blog who doesn’t play basketball at all, then you should also STFU about a player being whiner or a coach playing players too many minutes because you literally have no idea what it’s like to do what these dudes do.
It’s called “I have no interest in listening to the complaints of a guy that my team gave up five 1s to acquire and he turned out to be a generic meh barely worth a single 1.”
If you want to listen to them, listen to them.
And if you’re a random poster on a blog who doesn’t play basketball at all, then you should also STFU about a player being whiner or a coach playing players too many minutes because you literally have no idea what it’s like to do what these dudes do.
I did play basketball. I also know whining. I also know, and implement, that I’ll happily listen to whining from some while at the same time, not from others.
If you produce, you get to whine. For the most part. If you don’t produce, worry about producing in lieu of whining. And if you aren’t producing, under no circumstances should you start blabbering on and on out loud about what your teammates are capable of. Not your concern.
It’s typical “man management” as the soccer people call it. I like the term.
But the real question isn’t all this, it’s instead this: Should important organizational decisions be made, including about very important management, based on the whining of one of the organization’s meh performers?
The answer is obvious.
(If they actually brought in PJ Tucker to a roster spot to help manage the whining and the fallout then, I mean — that’s pathetic.)
He didn’t have such “foresight.” Everything above consensus expectation was an accident.
Given that Knickerblogger posters were discussing reasons to be higher on Brunson than the consensus, I find this dubious.
Like sands through the hourglass, routine bites hard, and ambitions are low.
Don’t hang yourself, Clarence!
joy division and socrates?
Well whatever you wanna call it, if the “whining” was right then complaining about the “whining” is some choosey discourse. We’ll find out, I guess.
saw something that made me laugh in its complete ridiculousness and clarity, thought about you Doogie…don’t put me on blast though please…
gotta at least try to be discreet in your indiscretions…
It’s bad process to fire Tom Thibodeau because of the whining of Mikal Bridges, a decidedly meh performer, at the behest of the owner.
Since there is a theoretical good process that would have arrived at the same ultimate result, the only substantive issue is whether the team can stay one step ahead of the bad process posse. (*) The jury is very much out.
(*) It’s not remotely the first example of same.
Don’t hang yourself, Clarence!
I told him to get out of Scotland before it was too late.
Simmons played 5 games against the Nuggets-who don’t have a good defense-and scored 4 points in total. It’s just one series, but he seems to not want to ever shoot the ball in meaningful moments.
If he’s the last guy on the roster I guess who cares, you’re not signing him with the idea that he’s going to be a difference maker in playoff games.
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But the real question isn’t all this, it’s instead this: Should important organizational decisions be made, including about very important management, based on the whining of one of the organization’s meh performers?
Show me one piece of evidence that supports your claim that Thibs was fired because Mikal whined about minutes?
Because I know for sure he was fired because he looked at Dolan funny once when he passed him in the hall of MSG.
Show me one piece of evidence that supports your claim that Thibs was fired because Mikal whined about minutes?
It’s all over the place.
I told him to get out of Scotland before it was too late.
Almost…I’m on a city beach stateside watching a man with with an inordinately large banana hammock monkeying around while a corgi nearby is watching him like he might be a the grim reaper and the owner of the corgi is watching me like my old lady hat is tickling his twat.
As per process, sometimes the least important voices say the most important things.
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Show me one piece of evidence that supports your claim
What, like a wire tap?
Look, dude… extending Mikal Bridges was an organizational priority. Evidence: we wildly overpaid him.
Mikal Bridges probably didn’t want to play for Thibs. Evidence: his public complaints and the reports of his private exit and interview.
The rest is just adding 2+2. We don’t need to hack Dolan’s emails here.
“I don’t know about the second part but all signs point to you being right about Bridges’ complaints finding a very sympathetic ear in Dolan.”
Well, we actually have no idea what transpired between Dolan and Mikal or what weight it carried in making the decision to fire Thibs.
What we DO know is that Mikal, who whatever you think of him as a player was the guy who played the most minutes for Thibs, suggesting that Thibs himself though of Mikal as a “star” who “produces.” That’s beyond dispute, the numbers don’t lie. Whether one agrees or disagrees, the facts are the facts.
We also know that Thibs threw Mikal under the bus when he basically called him a liar in the press (something like “he didn’t speak to me…”) and his point about excessive minutes and good players on the bench that could eat minutes stupid…and then proceeded to completely ignore his points…much to the disdain of E and many others. So if Mikal had an axe to grind with Thibs in his year-end meeting, it was certainly understandable and to the betterment of the team.
We also know that management had been considering whether Thibs should be fired well before Mikal said anything. And that there was much public criticism of his handling of the roster, most intensely after game 2 vs. the Pacers. And that non-stars had whined about him before, even publicly! (See: Obi Topppin) And that he was voted the coach that players would least like to play for.
The insinuation that somehow Mikal’s voice carried more weight than anyone elses because he was Dolan’s golden child and that Thibs would still be the coach if he had kept his mouth shut doesn’t pass any kind of non-agenda-driven smell test.
And even if it were the case, the notion that a player has to be “productive” (whatever that fucking means) to deserve to voice an opinion is total bullshit. It’s on management to decide how to weigh and what to do with those voices. But it is crystal-clear that there were multiple detractors, both then and earlier, and both on the roster and in the board room, that were not fans of Thibs and wanted him gone.
I should clarify, lest it not be clear, that while there is some experience in management here and obviously some philosophy of management, none of the kind of stuff I write here about said subject is ever communicated in any way, shape, or form in this fashion to actual human beings.
Think of them more as “thought bubbles” or “ways of talking to other managers.” Couching the thought bubble in a way conducive of future improvement and basic humanity is part of the art of management.
Produce the tapes.
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Well, we actually have no idea what transpired between Dolan and Mikal or what weight it carried in making the decision to fire Thibs.
Yeah, we actually do — but there will always be holdouts who deny obvious inferences and pieces of circumstantial evidence.
What we DO know is that Mikal, who whatever you think of him as a player was the guy who played the most minutes for Thibs, suggesting that Thibs himself though of Mikal as a “star” who “produces.”
It doesn’t mean that in the least. Mikal has a long-standing reputation for durability (that from all indications he rather likes). It’s part of his CV. It was almost certainly part of the acquisition cost.
And even if it were the case, the notion that a player has to be “productive” (whatever that fucking means)
You know what the word productive means. No need for scare quotes.
It’s on management to decide how to weigh and what to do with those voices.
Exactly — and they made the wrong decisions. I.e., the point.
The big takeaway from the Carlisle interview is that Bennedict is getting the starting nod at SG this year, replacing the injured Wally Pipp. Goodnight eastern conference.
And that non-stars had whined about him before, even publicly! (See: Obi Topppin)
Again, exactly. Obi Toppin whined and was disappeared.
Now do Mikal Bridges.
literally made it a point the other day to not respond to anything outlandish that E writes – it is just sooooo hard though to resist…
i really do appreciate the use/misuse of language though…what a great way to simply say: it is a you thing, not a me thing…
I should clarify, lest it not be clear, that while there is some experience in management here and obviously some philosophy of management, none of the kind of stuff I write here about said subject is ever communicated in any way, shape, or form in this fashion to actual human beings.
Think of them more as “thought bubbles” or “ways of talking to other managers.” Couching the thought bubble in a way conducive of future improvement and basic humanity is part of the art of management.
i’d be amazed and impressed if you can perform in this manner sober…this level of mania must be substance assisted…no way your pupils are not completely dilated right now, like saucer sized…
whatever, you got me again E…okay, starting now i will not chime in again on some of your more outlandish posts – for a while at least, we’ll see…you just have such a masterfully (if not subtle) hook, that can probably catch damn near anyone…
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“Yeah, we actually do — but there will always be holdouts who deny obvious inferences and pieces of circumstantial evidence.”
One would think a lawyer is fully familiar with the definition of the term “hearsay.” Which is all you have put out there.
“Mikal has a long-standing reputation for durability (that from all indications he rather likes). It’s part of his CV. It was almost certainly part of the acquisition cost.”
Yeah, that’s Thibs’ MO…to determine minutes players based on how “durable” they are. One of the dumbest things you have ever said on this blog, and that’s saying something!
“You know what the word productive means. No need for scare quotes.”
Right, because no one here ever argues over whether a player is productive or not, like for example some guy named Rowan Alexander…
“Exactly — and they made the wrong decisions. I.e., the point.”
Wait, now it was the wrong decision to fire Thibs? Make up your freakin’ mind!
It’s bad process to fire Tom Thibodeau because of the whining of Mikal Bridges, a decidedly meh performer, at the behest of the owner.
Was Mikal being unhappy possibly a factor in Thibs getting fired? Sure. Maybe. Was it the sole cause of Thibs getting fired? Probably not. Was it one of the main causes? Also probably not. The word “because” is doing an awful lot of heavy lifting there.
I mean, I know that I wanted Thibs fired, because it seemed to me like he did a not-great job of coaching the team. It’s not like Mikal is just making up some crybaby shit about minutes, he did literally lead the league in minutes played and we all watched the Knicks core rotation guys play a fairly insane number of minutes. We were 28th in 3PAr and he insisted on playing drop coverage with Karl Anthony-Towns at center.
He did a lot of not-ideal, kind of weird outlier Thibsy shit. We caught Boston at the right time and were able to knock them off anyway, and Thibs, Leon, and the players all deserve credit for that. In the other two playoff series– a scuffling win against Detroit and a clear loss to Indiana– we played pretty much how you’d expect the 2024-2025 Knicks to play.
Mikal or no Mikal, Thibs was probably getting shitcanned after that season. He did five years in Chicago, three years in Minnesota, and five years here. That seems to be the maximum possible amount of time you can have Tom Thibodeau as your coach before it starts bumming everybody out.
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Unfortunately, we are going to have to wait more than two months to see Mike Brown’s minutes allocation. It’s not easy to predict.
Mikal played the most minutes in the league last year. He played 139 minutes more than the number two player….Josh Hart.
But yes, call him a whiner.
I agree.
Frankly, the entire conversation is beyond silly.
Mikal was suggesting to Thibs that in the 4th quarter the Knicks players were more tired than the opposing closers due to the minutes allocation and that was a bigger negative than playing some of the bench players more minutes so the starters were fresher at the end. There’s obviously a tradeoff and Mikal thought Thibs was on the wrong side of that tradeoff.
Specific to him, he was playing every single game, a lot minutes per game and was being tasked with guarding smaller faster players out of position and to also be one of the main scorers. So he must have known that it was taking a toll on his productivity (as it would almost any other player). That was not ideal to get the most productivity per minute out of him (and probably Hart).
One of the main reasons the Pacers tried to build a deep team that played fast was to wear down top heavy teams like the Knicks late in games. Carlisle said as much the other day. They try to wear teams down.
Well said, JK. PS any experience with Terry Reid? Heck of a vocalist but I can’t imagine him doing the shit Plant did. Wonder how different Zep (or whatever band Page settled on) would have been if Reid had said yes, especially since Plant wrote much of the lyrics…
What we DO know is that Mikal, who whatever you think of him as a player was the guy who played the most minutes for Thibs, suggesting that Thibs himself though of Mikal as a “star” who “produces.” That’s beyond dispute, the numbers don’t lie. Whether one agrees or disagrees, the facts are the facts.
Thibs played him so much because he could guard wings well, was the least bad option for guarding small guards out of position (Brunson is a chair), could create and pass well enough to elevate to #2 option with the bench unit and because he had the 2nd best on/off on the team (behind Payne) and best of the starters. The only thing he didn’t do well that matters was hit 3s and that was hopefully a function of the form change. If so, he’ll be better at 3s this year.
If we had someone else that could protect Brunson it would free up Mikal to guard players his own speed and allow him to focus on steals and deflections again instead of battling picks and running around like a chicken without a head covering for Brunson and Towns along with OG.
That’s one of the many reasons imo Thibs should have experimented with Deuce instead of Hart. Not only would the spacing be better, it’s a double defensive plus. Deuce would be better defensively than Mikal against those small guards and it would free Mikal to do what he does best defensively and also save his energy for offense and late in games.
There were potential downsides to Deuce instead of Hart, but the lineup data with Deuce was very good. It was practically a no brainer to at least take a better look at it, but Thibs valued Hart’s rebounding and playmaking in that lineup more.
Z-Man, I have a lot of mutual friends who knew Terry Reid. He was kind of a regular in the pro musician scene around LA, loved to hang out with musicians and play music and just goof around. He was widely beloved by all. I never met him.
He sang in that same range as young Robert Plant and Rod Stewart, so you can see why Jimmy Page was interested in him. Great singer. Probably not quite as powerful as Plant in the upper range, but he was a great stylist and was a very soulful singer. They would have been a lot different for sure. Plant just had a larger than life sort of quality to him that Terry Reid didn’t have.
Anyway. RIP.
suggesting that Thibs himself though of Mikal as a “star” who “produces.” That’s beyond dispute, the numbers don’t lie.
It’s extremely disputable because it’s some of the worst logic I’ve ever seen.
Thibs also played Josh more minutes than anyone else. He must think Josh is a star, too.
But Thibs didn’t play Brunson & Towns nearly as many minutes as Bridges and Hart. So by your “logic”, it’s “beyond dispute” that Thibs thinks Mikal Bridges and Josh Hart were the stars of the Knicks, while Jalen Brunson and Karl-Anthony Towns were just a couple of nice supporting players.
So either Thibs is the worst judge of talent ever (RJ Barrett once played more minutes than any player not on the Knicks, too), or Thibs’ ridiculous minutes allocation is not indicative of who he thinks is a star.
Thibs has a long track record of giving guys minutes not because they’re good but because they’re essential to his stubborn defensive gameplan. Recall he once stuck with Elf Payton well beyond the point it made sense because Payton was critical to the defense he wanted to play. So Bridges leading the league in minutes really doesn’t mean anything other than the fact that Thibs didn’t trust anyone else on the team to play.
Mikal played the most minutes in the league last year. He played 139 minutes more than the number two player….Josh Hart.
But yes, call him a whiner.
He literally whined about it.
6:30pm and it is still plus 100 degrees outside, that’s more than a little unpleasantly warm…
jealous of them cool nyc temps…
Sometimes it’s not fun on the body,” Bridges said, per Stefan Bondy of the New York Post. “You’ll want that as a coach but also talked to him a little bit knowing that we’ve got a good enough team where our bench guys can come in and we don’t need to play 48 (minutes), 47.
“We’ve got a lot of good guys on this team that can take away minutes. Which helps the defense, helps the offense, helps tired bodies being out there and giving up all these points. It helps just keeping fresh bodies out there.
What a whiney little bitch.
“Thibs also played Josh more minutes than anyone else. He must think Josh is a star, too.”
Yup. No question about it. Thibs viewed Hart as a star in his position (you know, that position that Spoelstra and Kerr referred to as “winner”).
“But Thibs didn’t play Brunson & Towns nearly as many minutes as Bridges and Hart.”
Hart played 2.1 more mpg than Brunson and 2.6 mpg more than KAT. But I guess to some, that’s “not nearly as many minutes.” (I assume you don’t mean total minutes, given that Brunson missed 17 games with injury.)
“it’s “beyond dispute” that Thibs thinks Mikal Bridges and Josh Hart were the stars of the Knicks, while Jalen Brunson and Karl-Anthony Towns were just a couple of nice supporting players.”
As someone who whines continuously about how he is often misquoted, misunderstood, or misrepresented, you should note that I neither defined “star” nor put a limit on how many stars could be on a team, nor said that the pecking order of how Thibs values players is based solely on minutes.
“So either Thibs is the worst judge of talent ever (RJ Barrett once played more minutes than any player not on the Knicks, too), or Thibs’ ridiculous minutes allocation is not indicative of who he thinks is a star.”
So why do you think Thibs played RJ so many minutes? (other than “he’s the best player for the role I want him to play which is critical to winning?) Is your quibble solely with the word “star?” Okay, pick another term/phrase to define the player a coach values highly enough to play him the most minutes.
“Recall he once stuck with Elf Payton well beyond the point it made sense because Payton was critical to the defense he wanted to play.”
Payton averaged 23.6 mpg for Thibs that season. Prior to the all-star break, he played 28mpg, largely because his competition at PG was Austin Rivers, Frank, rookie IQ, and DSjr. Then they traded for Derrick Rose, and his minutes dropped to 18mpg for the rest of the season. Then in the playoffs, he played 8 minutes and 5 minutes before being benched entirely. If that seems analagous to the esteem that Thibs held Mikal in, whatever.
“What a whiney little bitch.”
Which poster are you referring to?
Bridges later in that same interview said dudes like Shamet were more than capable to take some minutes from the starters so he was literally saying what all of us were saying and building up his teammates who probably wanted more minutes but he’s somehow whining when we all wanted Thibs to ease up on the minutes? WTF are we even talking about?
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lo and behold shamet started balling out after mikal said what he said…
no regrets seeing thibs gone…was glad someone on the team found a voice for a counter thibs’ minutes narrative…our two team leaders (jalen and josh) were simply parroting most of the thibs’ minute nonsense…
82 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2025.08.07)”
https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/6536972/2025/08/07/knicks-mike-brown-coach-questions/?source=emp_shared_article
Edwards’ new mailbag includes a question from some jabroni:
Again, Edwards doesn’t seem that plugged in and his speculation can be off. Later in the same mailbag, he says he thinks Brown will do the double-big starting lineup, with Yabu backing up both frontcourt spots. We’ll see, I guess.
More and more, despite my reservations, I like the idea of Simmons with the last veteran minimum spot.
Mainly because of his versatility. The lack of offense is a problem and yes, he probably becomes unplayable in the playoffs at some point, but so did Cam Payne after one good quarter in game one against Detroit.
But his versatility, size, defense and playmaking make him a very intriguing regular season minute soaker guy for when injuries inevitably happen.
He can basically play all 5 positions and can handle PG duties if necessary. So if any one of our main guys goes down, he can sub in for them. He might have nights he does not play at all and that might be what is holding him back from playing with us. But he can be plugged in anywhere and that is very useful during the regular season.
And there is the potential for a high reward with him.
Shamet, Wright, Brogdon…all of them would fill a useful role but would leave us short at another position.
edwards is also not that great at grammar for a guy who writes for a living: “here is the players on the roster currently who will certainly play every night if healthy”
how about an 11-man rotation such as okc often uses?:
starters: brunson (34) bridges (30) anunoby (32) towns (34) robinson (24)
dynamic bench: mcbride (20) hart (18) yabusele (16) clarkson (12) hukporti (12) dadiet (8)
the rest: mccullar kolek beauchamp diawara
pg: brunson 34, mcbride 14
sg: bridges 24, clarkson 12, mcbride 6, dadiet 6
sf: anunoby 32, hart 8, bridges 6, dadiet 2
pf: towns 22, yabusele 16, hart 10
c: robinson 24, towns 12, hukporti 12
have two of anunoby robinson mcbride on the floor at all times except for of course blowout minutes thats where mccullar kolek beauchamp diawara come into play
I think Simmons would have a shot at minutes, though it gets pretty tight when you actually pencil it out.
He’d be, by far, the most viable traditional “point guard” among the Brunson backup options (I know Kolek has his fans here but if you can’t crush it in summer league at 24 you don’t pass the “viable” prong). Clarkson and Deuce can nominally play the position, but force you to either lower your playmaking ambitions or get playmaking from other positions.
Weirdly enough, according to BRef Simmons has literally never played PF in the NBA. I think this is misleading though, as he’s often classified as the nominal “point guard” in a lot of lineups with different primary ball handlers like Butler and Harden.
He’s also often been the tallest guy in lineups without being classified as a center. One of LA’s better lineups (SSS obviously, 80 possessions) was Simmons-Harden-Bogdanovich-Batum-Jones, for example.
So if you think he can give you both backup point guard and backup big minutes, your 10-man rotation would look something like this:
Brunson 32/Clarkson 10/Simmons 6
Mikal 26/Deuce 16/Hart 6
OG 32/Hart 10/Mikal 6
KAT 26/Yabu 12/Hart 10
Mitch 26/Yabu 10/KAT 6/Simmons 4
A few things jump out that make you question how realistic this is:
-Did Clarkson come here to get ~10 guaranteed minutes per game?
-Is Hart okay with going from leading the NBA in MPG to being guaranteed ~26?
-Do we want to make sure Deuce has a bigger role come hell or high water?
The fact that it’s hard to work Simmons in for even 10 minutes a game is likely the holdup with him right now, since I don’t think him getting more than the vet-min is realistic.
Of course, every NBA team has a “what we’d do given 100% health” plan that tends to get punched in the proverbial mouth, so a lot of this minutes based agita would likely become a first-world problem we’d be longing to have by January.
Not sure you can sell Simmons on “you’ll have a role when there are inevitably injuries,” though.
I know it’s the offseason but I still think we’re above penciling in Pacome Dadiet for fully healthy rotation minutes.
yeah i have dadiet penciled in for 8 minutes (2 at sf and 6 at sg) after people implored me to stop including wright btw your center minutes only add up to 46
In my opinion, there is a near-zero chance that either of Kolek or Dadiet crack the rotation unless there is a spate of injuries. Beyond garbage time, they will likely be second-quarter minutes eaters and will see loads of DNP-CDs. However, if one of Brunson, Deuce, or Clarkson goes down, I could see Brown giving Kolek a trial by fire unless there is a rotation-caliber PG like Simmons or Brogdan on the bench. Same with Bridges, OG, or Hart…one of them would have to miss considerable time for Dadiet to have any chance of seeing consistent minutes. Now that calculus can change if either guy shows out in preseason, where they will both get good looks.
Huk has the best chance of seeing more than token minutes because Mitch (minutes and fouls), KAT (defense and fouls), and Yabu (defense and undersized) all have issues at the 5. He has a chance to be a very solid backup, as he showed just before his knee cartilage gave way. Given the situation with Mitch’s contract, he probably has a small but legit chance of convincing Brown/Leon that Mitch is expendable for cap purposes.
I just don’t see us winning the Simmons bidding contest because of the minutes issue, he would clearly get ample playing time on a team like the Celtics. Same with Brogdan. My guess is that we wind up with one of the guys that was on the roster last year.
Frankly, once the dust settles (10-20 games in) I don’t see much chance of Brown playing a 10-man “rotation” unless you consider the 10th guy as a token “situational” player that provides load management and will vary from game to game.
If Dadiet sees minutes, it’ll just be the brass looking to squeeze in game experience here and there.
A couple minutes every other game should be doable.
I interpret “the suits want to play 10 guys” as nothing more than “Dolan took Mikal’s side after his whining because he (Dolan) is still infatuated by the way that he (Dolan) “pried him (Mikal) away” from the crosstown “rival.””(*)
The “idea” won’t last the preseason.
(*) See, e.g., Dolan’s self-congratulatory “and they’ll all be together for several seasons” podcast.
Simmons has zero upside for the playoffs, so the idea of him, while interesting from an X’s and O’s standpoint, is a non-starter for me.
Why use a roster spot on him when you know you can’t trust him to shoot the ball or even attempt to score in a critical moment in an elimination game? At least Jared Jeffries went for the layup.
ive got huk penciled in for 12 minutes at center (mitch 24, kat 12 have the other center minutes)
The idea that KAT will only see 12 mpg at C seems pretty far-fetched to me.
Interesting spin coming from KB’s most ardent Thibs detractor.
I would have expected something like “Mikal was the only player with both the gravitas and balls to openly challenge Thibs and go over Thibs’ buddy Leon’s head to get Dolan to intercede and do the single best thing to improve the team’s chances of winning a title during the Brunson window. That in and of itself makes the overpay worth it!”
22 minutes of kat at pf for a total of 34 minutes i think its at least cromulent
Wouldn’t the Celtics have to make a trade to free up a roster spot at this point to hire Simmons?
Per Begley, right now the Hornets’ Chris Jent is in the lead for the offensive assistant position.
I also like the Simmons idea in part because he can play multiple positions, but I especially like him substituting for Hart assuming Hart remains a starter. If he substitutes for Hart, we retain Hart’s excess rebounding and playmaking, probably improve on defense and the cost in spacing is less severe than if he was substituting for a shooter. None of it is ideal if we really want to play 5 out, but Simmons at the minimum is a steal because he’s versatile and does several things at a plus level. He and Clarkson together might work also because Simmons defends and Clarkson likes to chuck at his .54 TS%. 😉
“In the lead” is probably a bit misleading. It’s more like he’s the only one left that may be willing to take the job.
Yes, but Thibs is gone now so Lil Penny needs a new target to bash daily.
Adding to the speculation about lineups and minutes, my guess as to minutes distribition in reasonably competitive games, assuming a 9-man rotation and allowing for some cameos from players on the deep bench:
PG: Brunson 34, Deuce 14
SG: Bridges 20, Clarkson 20, Deuce 8
SF: Bridges 14, Hart 20, OG 14
PF: KAT 12, OG 18, Yabu 10, Hart 8
C: Mitch 24, KAT 20, Yabu 4
Totals:
Brunson: 34
Bridges: 34
OG: 32
KAT: 32
Hart: 28
Mitch: 24
Deuce: 22
Clarkson: 20
Yabu: 14
I could definitely see Huk playing 5-10 mpg at the cost of minutes at C for the other guys, but mostly see him as a foul trouble-injury-load management guy unless he really shows out.
There are players in the association I’d take over Thibs. The current version of Mikal Bridges is manifestly not one of them.(*)
Blaming other people is the psychological equivalent of physically defaulting to the mid-range areas and shots that no one cares about. Clear symbol that a player knows deep down that he’s slipping and he’s trying to cope and salvage.
(*) Similarly, there are at least some basketball reasons ranking somewhere between acceptable and compelling to have moved on from Thibs. “He hurt Mikal Bridges’s feelings by asking a lot of him” is not one of them.
you:
PG: Brunson 34, Deuce 14
SG: Bridges 20, Clarkson 20, Deuce 8
SF: Bridges 14, Hart 20, OG 14
PF: KAT 12, OG 18, Yabu 10, Hart 8
C: Mitch 24, KAT 20, Yabu 4
Totals:
Brunson: 34
Bridges: 34
OG: 32
KAT: 32
Hart: 28
Mitch: 24
Deuce: 22
Clarkson: 20
Yabu: 14
me:
starters: brunson (34) bridges (30) anunoby (32) towns (34) robinson (24)
dynamic bench: mcbride (20) hart (18) yabusele (16) clarkson (12) hukporti (12) dadiet (8)
the rest: mccullar kolek beauchamp diawara
pg: brunson 34, mcbride 14
sg: bridges 24, clarkson 12, mcbride 6, dadiet 6
sf: anunoby 32, hart 8, bridges 6, dadiet 2
pf: towns 22, yabusele 16, hart 10
c: robinson 24, towns 12, hukporti 12
pretty close! seems we differ the most on you having more minutes for clarkson and hart
Yes, but it’s weird to spend years harping on thibs playing players too many minute and then say that a player was whining when he brought up the fact that the starters were playing too many minutes.
Mikal played the most minutes in the league last year. He played 139 minutes more than the number two player….Josh Hart.
But yes, call him a whiner.
Apropos of absolutely nothing except it slightly amused me and I’m desperate to avoid work, I saw this headline just now and read:
“Judge tosses…”
And I’m thinking, “…ball into stands and brains little girl” or something equivalent, but then it turns out to be:
“…1983 NC State team’s suit vs. NCAA.”
Whatever the psychobabble you are deciding to conjure out of your perpetually sour view of anything Knicks, the bottom line is that if Mikal was the match that lit the dynamite under Thibs’ seat, the net result is a massive positive development, as you have stated a million times for the record that a championship under Thibs was a virtual impossibility. However, it seems like your take now is that Mikal is so bad compared to his acquisition cost/contract extension that whatever benefit was gained by replacing Thibs with Brown is more than lost in opportunity cost/personnel degradation.
Shocker!
my conjecture vs zmans (numbers assume mine as the baseline and are thus compared to zs):
starters: brunson (0) bridges (+4) anunoby (0) towns (-2) robinson (0)
dynamic bench: mcbride (+2) hart (+10) yabusele (-2) clarkson (+8) hukporti (-12) dadiet (-8)
the rest: mccullar kolek beauchamp diawara
pg: brunson 0, mcbride 0
sg: bridges (-4), clarkson (+8), mcbride (+2), dadiet (-6)
sf: anunoby (-18), hart (+12), bridges (+8), dadiet (-2)
pf: towns (-10), yabusele (-6), hart (-2), anunoby (+18)
c: robinson (0), towns (+8), hukporti (-12), yabusele (+4)
compared to me basically z has hart and deuce playing at the expense of huk and clarkson playing at the expense of dadiet hes also got og playing a lot more at pf whereas i have him at sf
composite of mine and zs:
starters: brunson (34) bridges (32) anunoby (32) towns (33) robinson (24)
dynamic bench: hart (23) mcbride (21) clarkson (16) yabusele (15) hukporti (6) dadiet (4)
the rest: mccullar kolek beauchamp diawara
pg: brunson 34, mcbride 14
sg: bridges 22, clarkson 16, mcbride 7, dadiet 3
sf: anunoby 23, hart 14, bridges 10, dadiet 1
pf: towns 17, yabusele 13, hart 9, anunoby 9
c: robinson 24, towns 16, hukporti 6, yabusele 2
Like sands through the hourglass, routine bites hard, and ambitions are low.
indeed clarence indeed these are the days of our lives have a great day
I have no such view. I’m very positive about Jalen Brunson and Karl-Anthony Towns. They’re two very, very good basketball players.
My “take” is that well-run basketball organizations don’t cater to the likes of Mikal Bridges and certainly don’t make any important decisions based on the likes of Mikal Bridges.
It’s also no secret that I think the Knicks are unfortunately fighting a big headwind with their ownership. Can it be overcome? Sure, it’s conceivable. But it’s a big headwind nonetheless.
Indeedily, Knicks 2025.
Your take is based on your own conjecture and nothing that can actually be confirmed.
The idea that James Dolan views Mikal Bridges in the same light that he viewed Melo is preposterous.
It has been overcome. We’ve made the playoffs 4 out of the last 5 years, have made the conference semi-finals 3 times in the last 3 years and have just gone to the ECF for the first time in 25 years.
you don’t need a benevolent owner to win an NBA title.
We’re going to find out pretty soon if Mikal’s lackluster play was related to Thibs, or if he’s now just a midrange jump shot machine who makes a free throw attempt once a week. I’m hoping to see at least some better play, because the guy we got last year is quite plainly not worth the money we are now paying him.
Maybe it was a weird fit with Thibs. Getting better and more optimized play from Mikal should be a high priority item on Mike Brown’s to-do list.
“I’m very positive about Jalen Brunson and Karl-Anthony Towns. They’re two very, very good basketball players.”
Well, offensive basketball players, anyway. Leon’s incredible foresight in betting that Brunson would become a “tentpole” as you like to call it should have won some points with you. He also found a way to bamboozle Minny into taking noted albatross and playoff choker Julius Randle as the centerpiece of a trade for that non-fraud all-NBA player. Or did Dolan force Leon into those deals? Was it Leon’s idea to trade the farm for Mikal or Dolan’s? Is your take seriously that Dolan told Leon to “pry Mikal away” from the Nets by giving them whatever wasn’t nailed down? (Never mind, just making shit up for the hell of it. Seems fitting.)
“My “take” is that well-run basketball organizations don’t cater to the likes of Mikal Bridges and certainly don’t make any important decisions based on the likes of Mikal Bridges.”
Well, your “take” is based on the most puposely ugly reading of the situation that one could possibly make. You are essentially saying that Dolan couldn’t care less what his #1 cash cow (Brunson) thinks, and has Mikal’s “whining” ahead of him in the pecking order. You are also stating that Mikal’s “whining” is all about a conscious attempt to hide the fact that he knows he’s in decline and that a coaching change hid what he knows deep down to be the truth from surfacing before he could garner a lucrative extension. Man, Mikal must be one shrewd, ruthless, backstabbing scumbag! (or is that just you projecting your own MO into his shoes? I wonder if Mikal dons a WWLPD rubber bracelet to help him remember those core values: disguise your incompetence and stab your immediate supervisor in the back while sucking up to an egomaniacal owner in order to lock up a long-term deal before word gets out, even taking a pittance below the max to look magnanimous in the press!)
I think this widely repeated pearl of groupthink needs examination.
Simmons was unable to participate in the Clippers Nuggets series. That doesn’t mean he can’t play in the playoffs. Those were two of the five best teams in the postseason, and that could have been a conference finals in most years.
The Ben Simmons of last year could absolutely come off the bench and play against the second unit of the Chicago Bulls in round 1 of the East playoffs. He can probably play in a round 2 series in the East, too.
He didn’t have such “foresight.” Everything above consensus expectation was an accident.
That said, I’ve given him props multiple times for using his connections and JB’s history with the organization to get him in here. Well done, Leon.
My take is that Dolan made it clear that the time for hoarding draft picks was over and the time to spend draft picks on the proverbial “superstar” was nigh. That’s number one. Number two is likely something along the lines of Leon giving Dolan a list of possibilities, Mikal being on the list, and Dolan salivating and making it clear he very much liked that possibility. Number three is that part of the reason Dolan very much liked that possibility was that in his mind it would be a way to “stick it to” Brooklyn.
None of this is really controversial. Not sure why you keep scoffing at this so much; it’s helpful for Leon’s reputation.
“Ugly”? Kind of overwrought, don’t you think.
My conceptualizing and proselytizing, in large measure, boils down to:
1. If you’re a star, you have wide berth and latitude to whine or do pretty much whatever you want just so long as you keep producing at star level.
2. If you’re meh, or average, or a star only in your own mind, it’s pretty much shut up and dribble.
It started with a Clippers fan friend of Alan and has taken on a meaning and import beyond all reason.
I don’t know about the second part but all signs point to you being right about Bridges’ complaints finding a very sympathetic ear in Dolan.
If Mikal was whining about too many minutes, then what’s it called when you don’t play professional basketball at all but complain about Thibs playing players too many minutes for 500 days in a row? Asking for a friend….
And yet he signed Brunson and Brunson became a tentpole. If he didn’t have foresight into that being a possibility, then the Nuggets didn’t have any foresight when they drafted Jokic or The Bulls when they drafted Butler. In fact, if Leon had no foresight about this potential Brunson leap, then no GM ever should be credited when they draft or sign a player who then exceeds expectations.
And if you’re a random poster on a blog who doesn’t play basketball at all, then you should also STFU about a player being whiner or a coach playing players too many minutes because you literally have no idea what it’s like to do what these dudes do.
It’s called “I have no interest in listening to the complaints of a guy that my team gave up five 1s to acquire and he turned out to be a generic meh barely worth a single 1.”
If you want to listen to them, listen to them.
I did play basketball. I also know whining. I also know, and implement, that I’ll happily listen to whining from some while at the same time, not from others.
If you produce, you get to whine. For the most part. If you don’t produce, worry about producing in lieu of whining. And if you aren’t producing, under no circumstances should you start blabbering on and on out loud about what your teammates are capable of. Not your concern.
It’s typical “man management” as the soccer people call it. I like the term.
But the real question isn’t all this, it’s instead this: Should important organizational decisions be made, including about very important management, based on the whining of one of the organization’s meh performers?
The answer is obvious.
(If they actually brought in PJ Tucker to a roster spot to help manage the whining and the fallout then, I mean — that’s pathetic.)
Given that Knickerblogger posters were discussing reasons to be higher on Brunson than the consensus, I find this dubious.
Don’t hang yourself, Clarence!
joy division and socrates?
Well whatever you wanna call it, if the “whining” was right then complaining about the “whining” is some choosey discourse. We’ll find out, I guess.
saw something that made me laugh in its complete ridiculousness and clarity, thought about you Doogie…don’t put me on blast though please…
gotta at least try to be discreet in your indiscretions…
for your eyes only mister doogie…hopefully Bob doesn’t do the click…he may not appreciate the humor…
Been awhile since we had a classic E thread…
It’s bad process to fire Tom Thibodeau because of the whining of Mikal Bridges, a decidedly meh performer, at the behest of the owner.
Since there is a theoretical good process that would have arrived at the same ultimate result, the only substantive issue is whether the team can stay one step ahead of the bad process posse. (*) The jury is very much out.
(*) It’s not remotely the first example of same.
I told him to get out of Scotland before it was too late.
Simmons played 5 games against the Nuggets-who don’t have a good defense-and scored 4 points in total. It’s just one series, but he seems to not want to ever shoot the ball in meaningful moments.
If he’s the last guy on the roster I guess who cares, you’re not signing him with the idea that he’s going to be a difference maker in playoff games.
Show me one piece of evidence that supports your claim that Thibs was fired because Mikal whined about minutes?
Because I know for sure he was fired because he looked at Dolan funny once when he passed him in the hall of MSG.
It’s all over the place.
Almost…I’m on a city beach stateside watching a man with with an inordinately large banana hammock monkeying around while a corgi nearby is watching him like he might be a the grim reaper and the owner of the corgi is watching me like my old lady hat is tickling his twat.
As per process, sometimes the least important voices say the most important things.
What, like a wire tap?
Look, dude… extending Mikal Bridges was an organizational priority. Evidence: we wildly overpaid him.
Mikal Bridges probably didn’t want to play for Thibs. Evidence: his public complaints and the reports of his private exit and interview.
The rest is just adding 2+2. We don’t need to hack Dolan’s emails here.
“I don’t know about the second part but all signs point to you being right about Bridges’ complaints finding a very sympathetic ear in Dolan.”
Well, we actually have no idea what transpired between Dolan and Mikal or what weight it carried in making the decision to fire Thibs.
What we DO know is that Mikal, who whatever you think of him as a player was the guy who played the most minutes for Thibs, suggesting that Thibs himself though of Mikal as a “star” who “produces.” That’s beyond dispute, the numbers don’t lie. Whether one agrees or disagrees, the facts are the facts.
We also know that Thibs threw Mikal under the bus when he basically called him a liar in the press (something like “he didn’t speak to me…”) and his point about excessive minutes and good players on the bench that could eat minutes stupid…and then proceeded to completely ignore his points…much to the disdain of E and many others. So if Mikal had an axe to grind with Thibs in his year-end meeting, it was certainly understandable and to the betterment of the team.
We also know that management had been considering whether Thibs should be fired well before Mikal said anything. And that there was much public criticism of his handling of the roster, most intensely after game 2 vs. the Pacers. And that non-stars had whined about him before, even publicly! (See: Obi Topppin) And that he was voted the coach that players would least like to play for.
The insinuation that somehow Mikal’s voice carried more weight than anyone elses because he was Dolan’s golden child and that Thibs would still be the coach if he had kept his mouth shut doesn’t pass any kind of non-agenda-driven smell test.
And even if it were the case, the notion that a player has to be “productive” (whatever that fucking means) to deserve to voice an opinion is total bullshit. It’s on management to decide how to weigh and what to do with those voices. But it is crystal-clear that there were multiple detractors, both then and earlier, and both on the roster and in the board room, that were not fans of Thibs and wanted him gone.
I should clarify, lest it not be clear, that while there is some experience in management here and obviously some philosophy of management, none of the kind of stuff I write here about said subject is ever communicated in any way, shape, or form in this fashion to actual human beings.
Think of them more as “thought bubbles” or “ways of talking to other managers.” Couching the thought bubble in a way conducive of future improvement and basic humanity is part of the art of management.
Produce the tapes.
Yeah, we actually do — but there will always be holdouts who deny obvious inferences and pieces of circumstantial evidence.
It doesn’t mean that in the least. Mikal has a long-standing reputation for durability (that from all indications he rather likes). It’s part of his CV. It was almost certainly part of the acquisition cost.
You know what the word productive means. No need for scare quotes.
Exactly — and they made the wrong decisions. I.e., the point.
The big takeaway from the Carlisle interview is that Bennedict is getting the starting nod at SG this year, replacing the injured Wally Pipp. Goodnight eastern conference.
Again, exactly. Obi Toppin whined and was disappeared.
Now do Mikal Bridges.
literally made it a point the other day to not respond to anything outlandish that E writes – it is just sooooo hard though to resist…
i really do appreciate the use/misuse of language though…what a great way to simply say: it is a you thing, not a me thing…
i’d be amazed and impressed if you can perform in this manner sober…this level of mania must be substance assisted…no way your pupils are not completely dilated right now, like saucer sized…
whatever, you got me again E…okay, starting now i will not chime in again on some of your more outlandish posts – for a while at least, we’ll see…you just have such a masterfully (if not subtle) hook, that can probably catch damn near anyone…
“Yeah, we actually do — but there will always be holdouts who deny obvious inferences and pieces of circumstantial evidence.”
One would think a lawyer is fully familiar with the definition of the term “hearsay.” Which is all you have put out there.
“Mikal has a long-standing reputation for durability (that from all indications he rather likes). It’s part of his CV. It was almost certainly part of the acquisition cost.”
Yeah, that’s Thibs’ MO…to determine minutes players based on how “durable” they are. One of the dumbest things you have ever said on this blog, and that’s saying something!
“You know what the word productive means. No need for scare quotes.”
Right, because no one here ever argues over whether a player is productive or not, like for example some guy named Rowan Alexander…
“Exactly — and they made the wrong decisions. I.e., the point.”
Wait, now it was the wrong decision to fire Thibs? Make up your freakin’ mind!
Was Mikal being unhappy possibly a factor in Thibs getting fired? Sure. Maybe. Was it the sole cause of Thibs getting fired? Probably not. Was it one of the main causes? Also probably not. The word “because” is doing an awful lot of heavy lifting there.
I mean, I know that I wanted Thibs fired, because it seemed to me like he did a not-great job of coaching the team. It’s not like Mikal is just making up some crybaby shit about minutes, he did literally lead the league in minutes played and we all watched the Knicks core rotation guys play a fairly insane number of minutes. We were 28th in 3PAr and he insisted on playing drop coverage with Karl Anthony-Towns at center.
He did a lot of not-ideal, kind of weird outlier Thibsy shit. We caught Boston at the right time and were able to knock them off anyway, and Thibs, Leon, and the players all deserve credit for that. In the other two playoff series– a scuffling win against Detroit and a clear loss to Indiana– we played pretty much how you’d expect the 2024-2025 Knicks to play.
Mikal or no Mikal, Thibs was probably getting shitcanned after that season. He did five years in Chicago, three years in Minnesota, and five years here. That seems to be the maximum possible amount of time you can have Tom Thibodeau as your coach before it starts bumming everybody out.
Unfortunately, we are going to have to wait more than two months to see Mike Brown’s minutes allocation. It’s not easy to predict.
I agree.
Frankly, the entire conversation is beyond silly.
Mikal was suggesting to Thibs that in the 4th quarter the Knicks players were more tired than the opposing closers due to the minutes allocation and that was a bigger negative than playing some of the bench players more minutes so the starters were fresher at the end. There’s obviously a tradeoff and Mikal thought Thibs was on the wrong side of that tradeoff.
Specific to him, he was playing every single game, a lot minutes per game and was being tasked with guarding smaller faster players out of position and to also be one of the main scorers. So he must have known that it was taking a toll on his productivity (as it would almost any other player). That was not ideal to get the most productivity per minute out of him (and probably Hart).
One of the main reasons the Pacers tried to build a deep team that played fast was to wear down top heavy teams like the Knicks late in games. Carlisle said as much the other day. They try to wear teams down.
Well said, JK. PS any experience with Terry Reid? Heck of a vocalist but I can’t imagine him doing the shit Plant did. Wonder how different Zep (or whatever band Page settled on) would have been if Reid had said yes, especially since Plant wrote much of the lyrics…
Thibs played him so much because he could guard wings well, was the least bad option for guarding small guards out of position (Brunson is a chair), could create and pass well enough to elevate to #2 option with the bench unit and because he had the 2nd best on/off on the team (behind Payne) and best of the starters. The only thing he didn’t do well that matters was hit 3s and that was hopefully a function of the form change. If so, he’ll be better at 3s this year.
If we had someone else that could protect Brunson it would free up Mikal to guard players his own speed and allow him to focus on steals and deflections again instead of battling picks and running around like a chicken without a head covering for Brunson and Towns along with OG.
That’s one of the many reasons imo Thibs should have experimented with Deuce instead of Hart. Not only would the spacing be better, it’s a double defensive plus. Deuce would be better defensively than Mikal against those small guards and it would free Mikal to do what he does best defensively and also save his energy for offense and late in games.
There were potential downsides to Deuce instead of Hart, but the lineup data with Deuce was very good. It was practically a no brainer to at least take a better look at it, but Thibs valued Hart’s rebounding and playmaking in that lineup more.
Z-Man, I have a lot of mutual friends who knew Terry Reid. He was kind of a regular in the pro musician scene around LA, loved to hang out with musicians and play music and just goof around. He was widely beloved by all. I never met him.
He sang in that same range as young Robert Plant and Rod Stewart, so you can see why Jimmy Page was interested in him. Great singer. Probably not quite as powerful as Plant in the upper range, but he was a great stylist and was a very soulful singer. They would have been a lot different for sure. Plant just had a larger than life sort of quality to him that Terry Reid didn’t have.
Anyway. RIP.
It’s extremely disputable because it’s some of the worst logic I’ve ever seen.
Thibs also played Josh more minutes than anyone else. He must think Josh is a star, too.
But Thibs didn’t play Brunson & Towns nearly as many minutes as Bridges and Hart. So by your “logic”, it’s “beyond dispute” that Thibs thinks Mikal Bridges and Josh Hart were the stars of the Knicks, while Jalen Brunson and Karl-Anthony Towns were just a couple of nice supporting players.
So either Thibs is the worst judge of talent ever (RJ Barrett once played more minutes than any player not on the Knicks, too), or Thibs’ ridiculous minutes allocation is not indicative of who he thinks is a star.
Thibs has a long track record of giving guys minutes not because they’re good but because they’re essential to his stubborn defensive gameplan. Recall he once stuck with Elf Payton well beyond the point it made sense because Payton was critical to the defense he wanted to play. So Bridges leading the league in minutes really doesn’t mean anything other than the fact that Thibs didn’t trust anyone else on the team to play.
He literally whined about it.
6:30pm and it is still plus 100 degrees outside, that’s more than a little unpleasantly warm…
jealous of them cool nyc temps…
What a whiney little bitch.
“Thibs also played Josh more minutes than anyone else. He must think Josh is a star, too.”
Yup. No question about it. Thibs viewed Hart as a star in his position (you know, that position that Spoelstra and Kerr referred to as “winner”).
“But Thibs didn’t play Brunson & Towns nearly as many minutes as Bridges and Hart.”
Hart played 2.1 more mpg than Brunson and 2.6 mpg more than KAT. But I guess to some, that’s “not nearly as many minutes.” (I assume you don’t mean total minutes, given that Brunson missed 17 games with injury.)
“it’s “beyond dispute” that Thibs thinks Mikal Bridges and Josh Hart were the stars of the Knicks, while Jalen Brunson and Karl-Anthony Towns were just a couple of nice supporting players.”
As someone who whines continuously about how he is often misquoted, misunderstood, or misrepresented, you should note that I neither defined “star” nor put a limit on how many stars could be on a team, nor said that the pecking order of how Thibs values players is based solely on minutes.
“So either Thibs is the worst judge of talent ever (RJ Barrett once played more minutes than any player not on the Knicks, too), or Thibs’ ridiculous minutes allocation is not indicative of who he thinks is a star.”
So why do you think Thibs played RJ so many minutes? (other than “he’s the best player for the role I want him to play which is critical to winning?) Is your quibble solely with the word “star?” Okay, pick another term/phrase to define the player a coach values highly enough to play him the most minutes.
“Recall he once stuck with Elf Payton well beyond the point it made sense because Payton was critical to the defense he wanted to play.”
Payton averaged 23.6 mpg for Thibs that season. Prior to the all-star break, he played 28mpg, largely because his competition at PG was Austin Rivers, Frank, rookie IQ, and DSjr. Then they traded for Derrick Rose, and his minutes dropped to 18mpg for the rest of the season. Then in the playoffs, he played 8 minutes and 5 minutes before being benched entirely. If that seems analagous to the esteem that Thibs held Mikal in, whatever.
“What a whiney little bitch.”
Which poster are you referring to?
Bridges later in that same interview said dudes like Shamet were more than capable to take some minutes from the starters so he was literally saying what all of us were saying and building up his teammates who probably wanted more minutes but he’s somehow whining when we all wanted Thibs to ease up on the minutes? WTF are we even talking about?
lo and behold shamet started balling out after mikal said what he said…
no regrets seeing thibs gone…was glad someone on the team found a voice for a counter thibs’ minutes narrative…our two team leaders (jalen and josh) were simply parroting most of the thibs’ minute nonsense…
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