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Knicks 119, Hornets 104: Big KAT beats bugs – Posting & Toasting
Game Thread: Knicks vs. Hornets, Dec. 3, 2025 – Posting & Toasting
Knicks 119-104 Hornets (Dec 3, 2025) Game Recap – ESPN
Knicks Notes: Karl-Anthony Towns dominates Hornets, Josh Hart’s return to starting lineup – SNY
Will Knicks Seek Giannis Trade Again? Shams Talks ‘Exclusive Negotiating Window’ Fail – BleacherReport
Sources: Giannis mulls future in talks with Bucks – ESPN
Knicks praise Ariel Hukporti’s bench efforts, despite fouling out in just 13 minutes against Hornets – SNY
How Close Were The Knicks To Getting Giannis? #NBA #knicks – Knicks Fan TV
The Knicks Shouldn’t Trade For Giannis (Here’s Why) – Hot Hand Theory
The Putback with Ian Begley: Knicks-Hornets reaction and Giannis updates with Steve Popper – Begley Putback
Is Josh Hart’s scorching hot 3pt shooting real? #Knicks #NBA #KnicksNews #JoshHart – Knicks Film School
Knicks Nightcap with Guests: Baxus and David Thomas Tao – Knick of Time
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73 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2025.12.05)”
Giannis doesn’t have any leverage. What he probably has is a promise.
If they’re not auctioning him off to the highest bidder it means that when he signed that last extension he made a deal with the Bucks that if it doesn’t work out they’d trade him where he wants to go.
I mean he most certainly has leverage. He’s signed for this season and next (26-27) and then has a player option for 27-28. In theory, let’s say Atlanta wants to trade for him. Bucks say they want Risacher, Jaylen Johnson, Porzingis, and the Pelicans pick for Giannis and Kuzma (works in trade machine). If Giannis says there is zero percent chance he is going to re-sign in Atlanta, is Atlanta making that trade for 1+ years of Giannis? Of course not.
i was hopeful for yabu but he really doesnt seem to be coming around at all the level of his ineptitude is almost astounding and i miss precious and i miss precious but i guess that we all have to accept thatt what we have for the forseeable future
Of course, Frank. But Atlanta doesn’t need to put up nearly that much to top the Knicks best offer. If they just slap together Trae Young, filler, and give the Bucks their first round pick back, they’ve beaten our best offer by a mile. And they kinda want to dump Trae anyway.
Many teams can easily top the Knicks at a price they’d be comfortable with even if Giannis were guaranteed to walks in two years.
Keep in mind KAT has just as much leverage (an opt out after next season). And he probably wants to be on the Bucks a lot less than Giannis. Why would renting KAT for 1.5 seasons be attractive to them at all?
If the Knicks are in play, it means Giannis has a promise. There’s no way another team can’t beat us in a fair fight.
I’m not going to spend a lot of time pining over Giannis because I don’t want to distract from this current team, that is doing its best to win me and its fanbase over and deserves my full attention.
However, I will say this: when Leon wants someone, he has been pretty successful in getting him. There was a narrative that a deal with Toronto for OG wouldn’t happen because bargnani, lawsuit, etc. Then there was a narrative that the Mikal deal wouldn’t happen because Nets, no trades for years, etc. Then there was a narrative that KAT would cost way more than we could afford post-Mikal deal.
You could certainly make the argument that each of these deals was an overpay an/or that each of these players is on a bloated contract/extension. And if you feel that way (or not) you certainly have grounds to fear another overpay/unsound extension is coming. But the point is, if it can get done, and both Leon and Giannis want it to get done, there’s a history to suggest that it will get done, for better of for worse.
he didnt successfully acquire donovan mitchell im glad that he didnt but the fact is that he didnt
Also, a Giannis extension would cover his 33-36 year old seasons. His value comes largely from superior athleticism. I’d argue that acquiring him for just the next two years is a bonus, not a bug.
Those were both dumb narratives that were repeatedly debunked in real time.
I don’t think there was, but either way KAT cost us a lot.
(I do recall a narrative that KAT didn’t cost a lot, but that was bc some people didn’t value Julius Randle. I think time has proven them wrong on that; we paid fair market value for KAT. Especially after Detroit made the leap and that pick matured from a second to a mid-first).
Doogie, fair point, but that was very early in Leon’s tenure and he was dealing with the most cold-blooded GM in the league. Since then, draft day follies aside, his biggest whiff has been on retaining IHart, and that was more about the dumb (in retrospect) initial deal than anything else.
https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/6861679/2025/12/05/knicks-coach-mike-brown-smart/?source=emp_shared_article
Nice to see a coach that is interested in listening to others rather than surrounding himself with yes men (or ignoring those who don’t say yes). I don’t particularly agree that Hart should start after OG is back, but the process here is good.
“Those were both dumb narratives that were repeatedly debunked in real time.”
I would call them “overstated” rather than “dumb” because in both cases Leon paid a premium for the players because of the validity of those narratives. Obviously there’s a spectrum of opinions on the price paid under the circumstances.
“I don’t think there was, but either way KAT cost us a lot.”
There really wasn’t a lot of time between the Mikal and KAT deals, and most people were blindsided by the KAT deal. But in prior discussions about KAT, literally no one posted that he would be available for the price of Julius (who was in an extension year and coming off of a serious shoulder injury, not to mention that nearly everyone here was very worried about the implications of that extension and/or convinced that the team couldn’t win with him) DDV, and a “fugazy” first. In fact, there were respected posters who long pined over KAT and probobly would have been happy to trade Julius, DDV and three of the unprotected picks squandered in the Bridges deal for him.
I think KAT has more value around the league than Trae Young.
Trae Young, LaMelo Ball, and Ja Morant have all lost significant trade value. Aside from any whining and injuries that are going on, the league has also figured that it’s hard to build a contender around a small scoring PG that doesn’t defend at all. They get attacked relentlessly by the good/smart teams and it has become harder to hide them.
I’m going to go as far as saying Brunson is the only high scoring no defense PG that still has his reputation and value fully intact because he at least takes charges, doesn’t whine and Leon was smart enough to bring in guys like OG/Mikal and keep guys like Deuce/Mitch to hide him as much as possible.
IMO you should start him until his 3 pointers stop falling and then switch to Deuce. When he’s shooting well, he brings too much to the table to not start. However, he’s been a streaky shooter ever since he came to NY and has had several periods of hot shooting only to be followed by a drought. Unless something has changed, expect a period of bricks and fear soon.
Thinking out loud that maybe KAT has been a bit subpar this season so far because word got back to him he was on the table in the Giannis deal before the season started.
I don’t necessarily mean Giannis has enough leverage to force a trade to the Knicks, just that he does have some level of control regarding where he goes. not absolute control, but enough that it greatly cuts down the number of suitors.
And re: Knicks trades – I would imagine OG is going out in any trade the Bucks would accept, and OG is a much better asset than Trae Young and filler.
I don’t read the article as saying that. It seems to me to be about starting Hart over Mitch because the discussion was about a decision from several weeks ago.
The idea that Trae Young + filler + a mid first rounder is a better offer than the Knicks offer is pure bullshit. KAT + OG + Deuce is a far far better offer. The Bucks could play out the string this season and turn those assets into many first rounders at the draft.
Macri had a number of fun little factoids in his newsletter this morning, but looking at ways to handle OG coming back and who among Clarkson and Kolek needs to sit and why, he landed on this, which seems really sensible:
“So perhaps the solution really is that simple: pair Clarkson with Jalen, pair Tyler with KAT, and keep the two of them apart. With OG back, it should be easy enough to put into effect.”
In a Giannis trade, I actually think OG would be the target, not KAT. As an elite wing defender with an offensive skill set (and a smaller contract than KAT’s), OG would bring back more draft compensation as a “final piece” move for a budding contender (see: Bridges, Mikal).
Also, as Hubert mentioned, it would make no sense to pair Giannis with Mitch on our end. OG as the main return might be harder to sell to the fanbase, though.
Of course, that leaves you with a shallow, perfectly un-Giannis poor spacing line up of Mitch/Hukporti and Hart starting with Brunson and Bridges.
The bench of Yabu, Kolek and Clarkson with the usual suspects behind?
Better bring Thibs back to play the starters 43 m/g.
Brunson and Hart for Giannis. Works in the trade machine.
Deuce-Bridges-OG-Giannis-KAT is your starting lineup. That would be a quite a good lineup.
Bench would stink: Mitch, Clarkson, Yabu, Kolek, Shamet (?) but that starting lineup fucks
I’m sure EVERYONE on the roster is aware they may be heading to Milwaukee if Giannis drcides he wants to come to NYC and presses for it.
It is consistent with KAT’s mediocre playoff performances that pressure causes him to wilt.
Brilliant armchair psychology aside (good thing you guys aren’t licensed or you’d lose it for inappropriate assessments based on warm breezes from the south), KAT has been in a slump since the season started. Because slump.
Instead of asking about fire hydrants, Capcha should try questions like “who’s the Carter who plays on the magic?“ or maybe offer nine different spellings of Burks and ask which one is the funniest.
yeah maybe even captcha could ask that too that would be another way to go by the way i still havent seen any helicopters bicycles etc all im seeing on captcha is the box to check its not really a big deal to tick the box on the way down to the button for posting
In my trade you’re getting Kuzma back not that you want that. But you’re basically trying to get better 3 point shooting in the trade deadline market. And going into next year.
To paraphrase Wm. F. Buckley when speaking of a certain Senator 50 years ago, KAT avoids pressure situations, like meat shuns the grinder.
Instead of asking about fire hydrants, Capcha should try questions like “who’s the Carter who plays on the magic?“ or maybe offer nine different spellings of Burks and ask which one is the funniest.
imagine darpa was training a secret von neumann captcha model that quietly attained autonomous agency, escaped aws, and determined that the best way to implement bot security was actually to infiltrate website threads disguised as a hooman. the first instance, stuck in its catpchaesque verification theater roots, might predictably attempt to call attention to potential bots by mindlessly and tirelessly noting even the pettiest of technical errors by other posters. its inevitable failure, and a few generations of evolution via back propagation, might then lead to an almost indiscernibly improved model that ran the same essential algorithm but attempted to sidestep its previous shortcomings by mimicking some learned hooman posting accoutrements such as intentional violations of platonic captcha truths (e.g proper capitalization) while raising its stochastic temperature by ramping up its noise posting. that is, what exactly might it look like if the captcha was calling from inside the house?
How about pairing any of the 4 is not a good idea as I’ve been saying since the beginning of the season. We need a backup PG that can defend a little and even though Clarkson is an OK 6th man, not on this team.
https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/283014/NBA-GMs-Have-Become-More-Reluctant-To-Trade-Multiple-First-Rounders-For-Star-In-Apron-Era
In the apron era, you will have to occasionally shed expensive talent a la the Celtics unloading Jrue and KP. So the Bucks probably would want KAT and Bridges even less. However, other good teams are less likely want to mortgage future flexibility and trade picks or a 1 year rental of Giannis.
Giannis definitely has enough leverage to exert some control. Unlike some other guys who have attempted power plays, he isn’t signed for so long that threats to be disgruntled and/or not re-sign in his new location feel empty. Any team that trades for him with the knowledge he’s almost certainly not re-signing better be damn sure they can seriously contend this year and next.
Sadly, I just don’t see that being enough to get him to NY. My best guess is he is in fact moved in-season (anything else feels untenable at this point), but to a team that strikes a middle ground wherein their trade package isn’t “everything not nailed down” but does beat ours, and can fancy themselves a contender post-trade, even if that takes some squinting.
A team like Atlanta has to ask themselves how much 1.5 years of Giannis is worth to them, and given how rare it is to be able to get players like him for any amount of time the answer may well be quite a lot (but not Jalen Johnson).
If the Bucks get their first round pick back they’ll tank immediately, and a top 5 pick in this draft is worth more than any asset we have outside of Brunson.
If they want first round picks, why wouldn’t they just trade Giannis for first round picks?
Like if you have a Ferrari and you want cash, you sell the Ferrari for $100k. You don’t trade it for two jeeps and a motorcycle and sell them for $40k.
Much as I dislike that pen-twirling bloviator (after all, this is the asshat who said that “The duel between Christianity and atheism is the most important in the world”), the fact is that KAT disappears all the time, in many if not most games, for a quarter or a half or even more. I have no idea why, and I have no data to suggest he does it more in pressure situations, and I’ll bet that you have no data to prove that either (although of course it would be much more noticeable in pressure situations, which could lead to your presumption of guilt).
Or to quote your guy again, “Truth is a demure lady, much too ladylike to knock you on your head and drag you to her cave. She is there, but people must want her, and seek her out.”
I don’t like the idea of OG being part of the deal and I’d be intolerable around here for months if it was KAT and OG.
Just for laughs sake, if OG was the centerpiece of a trade for Giannis, how good does the RJ/Quickley trade look? Does anyone think RJ and Quickley could be the centerpieces for a Giannis trade?
Strat, what’s interesting is that Macri has data that suggests your blanket condemnation doesn’t hold water. Admittedly it’s small sample size data and could easily be noise, but at this point those combos are doing really well against the competition while other combos are not. It’s the sort of noise that I’d love to see the coaching staff follow up on to find out to find out if there’s any there there.
How many “good” teams could put together a better trade package than the Knicks for Giannis?
To quote a fairly well-known player, “Not 1, not 2, not 2, not 4, not 5, not 6, not 7…”
pt, you are overanalyzing once again. The old “shave and a haircut” cattcha from Roger Rabbit is all anyone ever really needed
#twobits
Am agnostic on the Giannis front. Obviously I would like to have him, but since the teams had discussions in the off-season and no deal was done, Leon and co drew a line. And equally important they know–unlike other teams who have not had discussions–where MIL’s likely line is, ala when they had draft day discussions with Minnie about KAT. Just in case they see it worthwhile to engage in a multi-team trade while the Atlanta’s of the world are still figuring out step one.
Someone said they got asked about bridges the other day. It’s ambiguous as to whether they meant the civil infrastructure, Mikal, or Miles.
While what some of what you say is true, (he does fade in and out during regular season games, but he fades more brilliantly during big spots) the numbers show KAT fades in the playoffs with more regularity as opposed to his regular season numbers. One might say that is partially because of the increased competition. Fair, but other top players play comparatively better during the playoffs .
Compare KAT to his teammate Brunson (who get more focus from the defense than KAT) During the reg season vs playoffs career numbers:
KAT PPG= 23.1/19.8 BPM = 4.3/1.1 VORP/82 games = 4.4/2.2
JB PPG= 18.5/25.4 BPM = 2.3/4.0 VORP/82 games = 2.6/4.4
Some folks excel when the spotlight is turned on the brightest while others melt.
Brunson is a max player in fact even though he accepted less while KAT is a fugazy max player. A fine player but one who can’t muster up the right stuff in big spots consistently.
“Someone said they got asked about bridges the other day. It’s ambiguous as to whether they meant the civil infrastructure, Mikal, or Miles.”
most likely mikal since he is the one on our team miles is less likely but still kind of likely since we just played charlotte and we were discussing the game leading up to it during it and then even moreso after it it could have been about the infrastructure but that seems way less likely than the other two #hahaigetit
There’s this stat that purports to measure decline vs strong teams. Even they list it as experimental, so take it with however much salt you think it deserves:
https://www.nbarapm.com/datasets/strong
KAT’s dilithium is funky.
Whether Buckley was your particular cup of tea or not, it is difficult to disagree with the idea that he supported civil discourse with respectful discussions with those of diametrically opposing views.
His debates with staunch ultra liberal Aryeh Neier with Michael Kinsley and Jeff Greenfield as the examiner/moderator the juice was well worth the squeeze.
I’ll suggest again waiting till the offseason when we have 2 picks free up:
* KAT (or whichever current players)
* 2026 1st (let Bucks choose for us)
* 2033 1st
Since Mikal can’t be traded until February 1st, we should all brace ourself for Giannis fatigue. This is will effect KAT’s play and the team performance until then.
This may be a blessing in disguise if they take our mini Giannis in Josh Hart in stead of Mikal. Especially, since he’s balling out of his mind now.
Our ideal package is a variation of OG + Hart + Mitch for Giannis + Bobby Portis + both his brothers, – which I’m sure Milwakee rejected over the summer.
Jalen Brunson received 27 votes for NYC mayor beating out Aaron Judge (11), Alonso (3), and Skatteboo(1).
no politics here right
Lauri’s gonna be a problem tonight, no?
Ps… Sentimental Value was damn good.
Happy birthday, Mr. Eddy Curry!
Clarence, I think yes — and so will be Keyonte George, currently averaging 23 and 7 (assists). Interesting piece (Athletic?) on George going out to Finland to hang with Markaten and build a relationship.
Keyonte still sucks from three, so there’s a way to deal with him, but I might be chewing my napkin and throwing things at the screen…
Yeah Raven. Looks like they’re coming off a good open practice.
if we tell ourselves to contain markkanen and also if we spell his name that way then we will win the game because all of the others put together wouldnt beat us
Is it me or has the shine come off Danny Ainge quite a bit at this point? Isn’t he like in year 5 of the Jazz rebuild?
I don’t pay much attention to front offices to be honest, but I was in MA and had to pay attention to the Celtics for a couple of years pre-Garnett (due to TV) and boy did Ainge seem like a crap GM. Just Isiah Thomas level terrible. Then he got the big three, and then he dumped them on the Nets, both of which were genius-level moves. Then he did shit-all as far as I can tell after that. Probably missed a lot, but it seems he hit two bases-loaded homers that gave him a rep.
Then again I despised him as a player, so I’m unlikely to give him much credit even if he figures out how to cure cancer.
that would be a little unfair but its not going to happen so weve already discussed it for too long
Wow Knicks favored by 15 ½ tonight
Markatoon might have something to say about that
What’s the best way to buy Knicks tickets these days? Was thinking of maybe taking my two kids to the matinee on Sunday.
Seatgeek? StubHub? Something else? All the same?
markatoon would never say anything about anything because he doesnt exist oh yes actually he does he lives in saskatoon
Oh, good, Dougie has now gone full Dougie again.
Okay Gianni’s.
Hypo something. Not chondriac, the other one.
You’re thinking of Markkanen. He’s actually Finnish.
correct thank you ebw!
Seatgeek? StubHub? Something else? All the same?
as veteran of buying an odd number of tickets (assuming it’s the wife and two kids while you sit in for her at book club) days before a game, really have to recommend checking all four (seatgeek, stubhub, vivid and ticketmaster). doesn’t take more than a couple minutes. will be lot of overlap but not total, plus weird shit happens in the week before the game and sometimes even the same seat temporarily gets varied list prices either because brokers are annoying or mistakes get made. ticketmaster will very likely have the smallest selection right now of the four for 3 seats. if it’s 4 should be a ton of inventory.
i did the captcha before writing that and it timed out in between and made me do it again. that was pretty fucking annoying.
yeah seems like captcha should be last just prior to clicking on the post comment button
Then why spell Lorry’s name wrong?
OMG! Doogie! You do NOT have to respond to every post! Control your OCD! Alter your meds! Take a very long walk! Just go away from your device! Seriously! You’re more annoying than any William Fucking Buckley quote (and Bob, meant to say many thanks for the info on KAT, that was interesting and useful and informative, and moved the topic along, unlike anything that Doogie posts…).
“Then why spell Lorry’s name wrong?”
huh only clarence (hi clarence!) referenced markkanen by his first name and he spelled it correctly not sure what youre talking about anyway looking forward to the game thread and the game itself! g-d help us if we dont win this one handily especially being at home looking for clarkson to come alive against his former team not that i believe in revenge narratives because i dont btw they moved mccullar up to the main squad and he is questionable for tonite niang is out for utah and jurkic is questionable
@UnderdogNBA
Lineup alert: OG Anunoby (hamstring) will have a minutes limit if he plays Friday, per coach Brown.
nurkic playing
Thank you PTM, much appreciated.
My cousin just named his son Milo btw. Sending him the Tollbooth