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[news.google.com] — Thursday, September 28, 2023 2:35:08 PM
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[news.google.com] — Thursday, September 28, 2023 2:32:54 PM
Knicks expected to have interest in trading for Jrue Holiday: report Yahoo Sports
[news.google.com] — Thursday, September 28, 2023 1:25:42 PM
Knicks: Tke perfect Jrue Holiday trade to offer the Blazers ClutchPointsJrue Holiday Trade Rumors: Knicks, Pacers Linked After Blazers’ Damian Lillard Deal Bleacher ReportThe questions Knicks’ Leon Rose has to answer with Jrue Holiday trade pursuit New York Post
[news.google.com] — Thursday, September 28, 2023 12:32:00 PM
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[news.google.com] — Thursday, September 28, 2023 10:00:03 AM
Should Knicks dip into coveted trade assets to acquire Jrue Holiday? Daily Knicks
[news.google.com] — Thursday, September 28, 2023 9:58:38 AM
Are the Knicks in the mix to trade for Jrue Holiday? Posting and Toasting
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[news.google.com] — Thursday, September 28, 2023 8:55:00 AM
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56 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2023.09.29)”
I have for a while thought that Jerami Grant would be a very useful addition. He might be the better player to pursue on Portland.
It might seem at first glance that he’s redundant with Randle but that idea doesn’t hold up to scrutiny. They are both 6’8″ but Grant is 40 lbs lighter and significantly more agile. He usually draws the big wing assignment on defense and capably guards the likes of LeBron, Butler, Tatum, etc (something we desperately need). I think he’d slot in well next to Julius as a SF in the starting lineup while also being able to cover those PF minutes when Julius sits.
He also opens up some potential small-lineup possibilities, which we will inevitably need to try to counter the kind of defensive treatment we saw in the playoffs.
At 29 y/o he fits our age bracket better than Jrue.
And he shot 40% from 3 last year (which was much higher than his career average of 36%, but even his career mark would make him the 2nd best shooter on the team).
The dude checks a lot of boxes for us. Thibs would have a hard on grinding teams down playing him at the 3 with Hart at the 2.
He also makes it easy to afford losing Randle if we have to include him in any next trade we might make.
He is in the first year of a 5 year market value contract. This will likely scare off several suitors, as it should. But we’ve got RJ Barrett in the first year a 4 year contract that’s nearly the same AAV, so it shouldn’t scare us as much.
If they like RJ (a big if), building a trade around Barrett for Grant should be rather easy.
Hubert, I like your Jerami Grant idea.
Strat, I’m going to write some words I never thought I’d write: Bill Simmons agrees with you.
I started listening to Simmons Podcast on the Lillard trade and Simmons at one point went on a five minute tear where he talked about how Lillard might not be quite as good as everyone thinks and Milwaukee might not actually be better because of this trade because there will be all these guards they won’t be able to guard at all (and he listed many names of such players) because Lillard’s defense is just bad.
“I’m not even saying to trade for Jrue, per se, but I do agree that I would really prefer a bit more urgency from the Knicks. It’s not like we’re talking Year 3 KD, Year 2 Westbrook and Year 1 Harden here in terms of maturing assets.”
I get that, Brian, but you also have to consider how Leon’s stated goal has been to build a sustainable winner, and that doing that requires not making a first deal that compromises his ability to make a second.
On that note, I think what’s being missed in this is how instrumental Jrue Holidy was the key piece in getting this deal done. We have two players at his level on even better deals than his. The Bucks were able to make the deal with only one unprotected pick and two pick swaps going out, while maintaining their best player at a completely different position. It suggests that the Knicks might have been able to make the deal if they wanted to give up either more picks or by including Brunson. But this was not the time to do that, or the player to do that for. I’m actually impressed by the patience shown.
And while the Bucks are going to be the betting favorite barring another development, they are not especially deep, are way into the tax, and have some aging players. The Knicks aren’t sexy right now, but they have a waiting in the weeds look about their roster/asset combo.
And fuck it… while you’re there, you might as well discuss Jrue! I mean, you’re on the phone already, right?
Let’s say you made it a mega trade (included Quickley, Evan, filler), you end up with:
Brunson
Jrue
Grant
Randle
Robinson
with DDV, Grimes, Hart, and iHart off the bench
This all, of course, hinges on whether they like RJ Barrett, which they probably don’t, so this has likely just been me working off my morning caffeine. (I switched to an Italian roast recently and I’ve been typing a lot more… might explain the umari.)
the umarell, I mean.
Bill Simmons and Strat actually strike me as two very compatible basketball thinkers.
Jerami Grant is a big no for me. He’ll be making $32 million per year, until the summer of 2028 (when he’ll be 34). His efficiency also looks to have dipped in recent years.
Also, a Jrue+Grant trade would be $63 million in incoming salary. Knicks would have to trade a lot of salary (much more than just Fournier+RJ) to make that work.
Me: “I guess metaphors are not something I generally have to deal with.”
You: “Clearly bc you missed a golden opportunity to correct Donnie’s egregious misuse of mixed metaphor. The window metaphor remained consistent in both instances. A mixed metaphor would have been if “shortens our window” was followed by something like “elongates our curve.””
I didn’t say that I didn’t understand it once it was pointed out—it was very clear what was “mixed” about it. I was simply explaining why I didn’t see it in the first place, that reason being because folks do not use metaphors in technical writing, so I don’t need to watch for them when I am editing.
Suppose Leon & Co makes a play for Jrue that includes Quickley. One- do we trust DiVincenzo playing the point in a pinch? And two- is RJ, Grimes, Fournier and a protected 1st a better trade so that we can re-sign Quickley and develop him as the Jrue replacement? You could talk me into either option but I’m a little torn on it. I love Quickley and I really like RJ. Out of the 2, RJ’s the most expendable because Hart can start at SF as the glue guy. I am really anxious to see what happens with Jrue. I REALLY don’t want him in Miami or Boston. The only 2 teams I’d love to see him traded to are our Knicks and Golden State. The Dubs would be LETHAL with that 3 guard lineup. The Knicks would be lethal with Jrue as the other guard to steady the offense and play defense. A lineup of Mitch/Randle/Hart/Jrue/Brunson is well balanced- especially if Hart continues to make open 3’s and be an opportunistic attacker.
Yeah, the Jrue expansion part is pretty far fetched. It takes RJ, Evan, IQ, and iHart just to get in salary range.
But your Grant argument doesn’t hold up as well bc we’re talking about trading RJ Barrett. Over the first 4 years of the contract it’s only a $3.5mm AAV difference. We get saddled with the 5th year in 2028, but that strikes me as a fair price to pay for the delta Grant would provide on the court over 4 years.
The problem is we don’t know what the **** RJ’s value is. Should we be saving him for a better deal? Does anyone want him in a better deal? I have no idea. Portland could conceivably laugh at RJ for Grant at the same time you might think it’s too much to give up.
Although I like Grimes, I like Quickley even more, so I would go with your latter option, for sure. So definitely “RJ, Grimes, Fournier and a protected 1st a better trade so that we can re-sign Quickley and develop him as the Jrue replacement,” between the two options you gave.
I don’t think the Knicks are in on Jrue at all—whether they should be or not. Do not forget that Philly *is* in on him, which would be interesting considering that 1) he played there in his early career and 2) well, that whole Harden situation. Golden State hasn’t been one of the teams to be rumored to be in on Jrue—I mean, they just got Chris Paul; are they going to flip him to Portland just so he can be flipped somewhere else?—but the *Clippers* (ironically, where Harden wants to land) are (bye, bye, Westbrook). Then again, surprises happen: Most people didn’t know that the Bucks were an option for Lillard until the trade had already occurred.
Awwwwwww……. Dianne Feinstein, RIP.
I’ve been reading that in the past couple of weeks, Lillard was trying to “make amends” with the Blazers and be a good soldier by showing up to training camp in a few days, etc. The Blazers did not want him at training camp; thus, the increased urgency on getting a trade completed.
We have three very-hard-to-price assets that we keep including in mock trades but we might be totally off on their value.
Let’s say we marketed RJ, the Washington pick, and the Detroit pick.
If I’m a GM, I would value that package as less than zero, with RJ being a negative asset and the two picks being too uncertain to negate his contract.
But it’s also reasonable there might be a GM attracted to RJ’s upside and pedigree and thinks those picks might actually have a decent chance of converting.
Fair point, Hube… if I put myself in other teams’ shoes, honestly, I’m not that excited at the prospect of including RJ in my rebuild. I’d feel similarly to how I felt about Andrew Wiggins in Minnesota (which I guess sorta worked out, but wasn’t expected to and easily might not have).
At the same time, if I’m Portland I wouldn’t expect too much of a return for Grant, with that contract, and with cap space having some importance again under the new CBA.
So, in conclusion, neither Grant nor RJ are great trade pieces, IMHO 😀
Personally, I’d take RJ’s minimal upside over the upgrade in talent that Grant would bring.
The discussed RJ for Jrue swap leaves us with an incredibly small team – you have the 3 bigs and then a bunch of guys under 6’5″. Obviously Josh Hart plays bigger than his listed height and Jrue can guard up as well but at some point I think you might be just giving up too much on that front. I know we’re still seeing this team as a waypoint towards something bigger and in a vacuum Jrue is obviously much, much better than RJ so maybe you just don’t worry about it too much, but just something to think about in terms of how much better a trade like that makes us right away.
Hoopshype just listed the Top24 centers and Mitch is not on the list !? 😮
https://hoopshype.com/lists/nba-rankings-top-24-centers-2023-24-season-adebayo-embiid-jokic/
Grant solves a lot of Xs & Os problems, but he’s more good than a true difference maker.
EPM, LEBRON, RAPTOR, & DARKO all value him roughly equal to Grimes. Honestly, not sure why as Grant had an above average usage with his 60TS%. OBPM likes him more with a 1.2 last year.
Really hard not to like the idea of Grant though. I’d probably do it if it’s just RJ & Fournier, and maybe the DET or WAS pick. He’s just getting paid too damn much.
It dipped in Detroit when they asked him to be their go-to scorer. Playing off Dame last year it was back to 60TS%. He just can’t run an offense, but won’t get asked to here. He can do it (poorly) in a pinch if it does ever come to that though.
We can debate all the potential deals with Portland we want, but the odds are highly stacked against a deal taking place, so it’s virtually impossible to figure out whether the deals would have panned out or not.
At this point in his career, Jerami Grant is not really suited to play the 3. He’s played enough minutes there so that it’s not a crazy idea, but paying top dollar for a guy who would largely not be playing his primary position (and considering his contract and his age) is not something I would do. And it’s not likely that Leon would do it either unless it was at a bargain price.
Grant is an okay player with a very bad contract, I’d rather not
It would at least close the circle of our failed pursuit of Jerami’s father Harvey Grant in the summer of 1992. Because we didn’t get Grant, we made the Charles Smith trade. Harvey was more of a SF than his son is at this point, but in both cases (and with Smith) it was the Knicks trying to force a big man to play smaller.
The Knicks drafted Jerian Grant in 2014, thus closing the circle of their failed pursuit of Jerami’s father Harvey Grant in the summer of 1992. Acquiring Jerami would re-open the circle. Best not to go there.
“Acquiring Jerami would re-open the circle.”
I believe you meant to say “re-open the window.”
Weird but true: At this time, the best thing for Leon to do is, what he does best, – just go to sleep. His natural melatonine levels are legendary.
I wouldn’t rule out the Blazers just keeping Grant for the time being. They signed him to a 5-year deal knowing Dame was probably on the outs, as I understand it. Might be the kind of thing where they want a veteran around their young core so long as Grant is fine serving in that role.
This would absolutely be an issue. At the end of the day I would still do it because I think the production upgrade is so substantial we’d be in “worse teams have won the finals” territory, but for all of his faults RJ is a big wing and we would immediately be in the market for another. Maybe we’d start Hart at the 3 to mitigate this a bit.
This is what makes theorizing about trades so difficult for me. You could tell me another GM values RJ highly or views him as an albatross and neither would surprise me.
When it comes to the guys on our roster who often come up in trade scenarios, my shot in the dark regarding their league wide value is:
1. IQ
2. Grimes
3. RJ
As far as our surplus picks go:
1. DAL–it will almost certainly convey as a first, probably not super late, and will convey soon.
2. DET–they’re trying to win, this likely conveys as a first. Could easily be as soon as 2025.
3. MIL–this one went from 1 by far to a distant 3rd in the last 48 hours…but I still think teams prefer the light protections to the WAS uncertainty.
4. WAS–who the hell knows if/when this ever conveys, though I will say I wouldn’t write if off entirely. If they’re still top-8 in 2026, that would be nothing short of an unmitigated disaster for the new front office.
Oh, I remember the Jerian Grant pick well, Donnie. But Jerami plays the same position(s) as his dad, so that would feel like more of a closure thing than us drafting a PG who wasn’t very good.
Grant is a funny one. He is a classic guy ho turned a big scoring year into a big, kind of unmerited deal. He’s fine but I would have zero interest in him. He seems kind of duplicative for a start.
Holy hell that was a rainstorm. Hope everyone is ok.
I listened to 10% of the Bill Simmons podcast. (It’s flooding in NYC and I had to wait 20 mins for a 6 train.) He had a great idea: OKC should trade for Jrue.
I still have the Bucks 2nd. It’s guaranteed to be a 1st, they’re one injury away from being awful, and there’s a nonzero chance this partnership ends in a year.
Detroit may be trying to win but a 17 win team trying to win doesn’t strike me as a good idea. I would have more faith in that pick converting if they were tanking for the next draft star.
I just recorded a segment for Marc Stein’s radio show in Dallas, talking about the cancellation of Winning Time, and he of course tried to goad me into saying I want the Knicks to trade for Jrue. I remain torn. He’s really good, would be an excellent complement to Brunson, I love two-PG backcourts, etc. But he’s old, will cost a lot in both trade assets and then his next contract, etc. But at a certain point, Leon has to make A move. He can’t just be waiting for Embiid the whole time.
So… yeah. LarryDavidConsidersPalestinianChickenDotGif
Burying the lede there Alan! Pretty cool.
I was talking with Macri about the possibility of an RJ-for-Jrue swap and it’s kind of a fascinating question. There are a lot of factors that make it seem both eminently sensible and dumb for both teams.
-Portland’s young core is plenty intriguing, but they have basically no wings
-POA defense and efficient shooting are two of the Knicks’ biggest needs
-Jrue is 33 and not signed for very long, may well be a rental at the cost of the guy we nominally consider a great asset
-RJ Barrett has mostly sucked in the NBA through four years
When I weigh all of this from the Knicks’ side of things I come out slightly pro-trade. It’s not inconceivable trading RJ is eventually viewed as an inherently good thing and I think the team would be quite good.
My guess is Portland correctly thinks they could get someone better than RJ with a pick package from somewhere else, but I really have no idea.
Jrue & Julius were +4.8 per 100 when they shared the floor, probably had something to do with being +8.3 when they formed a trio with AD, but whatever
the jrue deal isn’t happening… for lots of reasons… but the biggest one is that we’re on a slow moving collision course for donovan mitchell in about two years….
it’s good to be kicking the tires on any move but the barometer to judge any deal now is going to be.. can this work with donovan also? or is this better than signing mitchell? in those respects… trading for jrue or grant or even OG or whoever is probably not going to work out well…
so i don’t think rose is entirely out of options… i think mitchell is actually the only one tho that has a likelihood of moving within the next two years… and it’s just a matter of how good the team will be once he becomes available and whether or not another team is able to make a pitch to him to convince him to stay or go elsewhere…
I guess the good news is that Donovan Mitchell will still only be 29 years old in two years’ time. The bad news is that he’s been averaging 15 missed games per season over the past three of them.
You know, I’m told to come back when I have something basketball-related to contribute, so I’ve started to do exactly that, and what happens? I shut down the website again for an hour and a half, as usual. :-S
It can go from Woj Bomb to tell-me-again-about-that-Replacements-album real fast.
It seems like Philly is going to have to make a big push for Jrue. Maybe a 3-team trade where they get Jrue, LAC gets Harden, and Blazers get picks and stuff. Morey has to do something. Feels like a ticking time bomb over there, and the Bucks just put them on the hot seat.
I think that’s quite possible, but I would hate it for more than one reason: 1) Jrue back to the East, and 2) actually giving Harden what he wants again (for the third time in a row) in terms of where he wants to go. He stopped deserving that three teams ago.
And Harden back with Westbrook? Lordy. Even if Westbrook goes out again (which of course will bring up the “buy-out candidate” discussion here yet again, Harden will mess up the Clippers even worse than they already are. But we don’t really care about the Clippers here, so them falling (even more) to pieces doesn’t help us in any way other than entertainment purposes.
Hard to imagine the Clippers being able to get Jrue but wanting Harden instead.
Hard to imagine anyone wanting Harden at all, actually.
You want to trade RJ Barrett for James Harden? Cuz I’m pretty sure you could.
Speaking of the Clips getting messed up, they just signed Josh Primo — aka, the guy who just got suspended by the NBA for exposing himself to women on multiple occasions — to a two-way.
hi cyber, i hope all’s well…looked at that list without mitch…
except for the very top of the list, it’s a questionable list…
It seems like there is that much more pressure for teams to kowtow to their stars by making all-in trades even in the middle of their contracts. If only Ewing could have pulled that shit..
Hopefully both those ways are clothed… but seriously I hope he got whatever that was sorted out
I’m flying to NYC right now. Is there any chance of making it from JFK to my hotel in the Lower East Side? Lots of stuff appears to be underwater.
It seems like the water is receding pretty quickly up here in Westchester. Roads are opening back up. You’re taking a cab I hope!
JK you should be fine, the roads are almost all okay and it’s not supposed to rain hard again until like 5am
There’s this continuing narrative out there that the Lillard saga proves that the Knicks are not a preferred destination, either over the Nets or over even small market teams like the Bucks. This is somewhat based on the reporting that Dame opened up his list of preferred destinations to include the Nets but not the Knicks.
Yet it seems pretty clear that the Knicks were simply not all that interested in acquiring Dame, largely because they already had Jalen Brunson in the fold but also because of his age, contract, and Portland’s asking price.
This isn’t to say that the narrative that stars are dreaming of playing at MSG isn’t also overblown….it likely has a bit of truth to it but not nearly as much as many Knicks fans think.
I just think that the way things went down doesn’t really have any bearing on either narrative. It simply wasn’t a great fit for either party at this time.
Fit is very important. I think industry pundits don’t take this into account as much as they should. Consequently, it never occurred to most of them that Kawhi could be traded to Toronto or Mitchell to Cleveland or Lillard to Toronto.
Apparently, along with the Clippers, we are one of the known teams with real interest in Jrue. The Clips could maybe beat our offer if they want to, assuming we don’t want to pay more than 2 firsts and RJ. They have more expiring money and Terrence Mann, Kobe Brown, and their own firsts in ‘28 and ‘30. I’m guessing we would need to give up at least either Quickley or Grimes and 2 unprotected firsts, maybe more, to get a deal done. Seems a little steep.
I don’t see anr reason to overpay for 33yo Jrue on a rental beyond keeping him from the Sixers, Celts, or Heat. I hope he stays out west. Let’s find out who we really have in RJ, IQ and Grimes and then roll the dice in the offseason. Someone good will be available, I guarantee it.
i wonder which team jrue himself would pick…add him to okc and they’re ready to win…
heck, they may already be ready to win…give them dort and a thousand picks…
I mean, I don’t think we have a choice but to see what we have in RJ — the league knows what he’s done thus far despite making 23 mil AAV. He’s not an asset right now. Quickley has been good but is about to get paid and wants to start, so he’s a bit of a question mark. Only Grimes is a definite asset to most teams on his current contract. I don’t want to overpay for Jrue either, but a FO that is desperate to win more playoff games might feel differently.
Actually, yeah, a trade has already been thrown out there on some sites: Quickley, Hartenstein, Fournier, and 1-2 firsts for Jrue. I could see Leon pulling the trigger on that.
The Knicks once traded everybody they’d ever drafted for Chris Mills.
Lillard was traded to Toronto?!?!? I was going to say that doesn’t make any sense, until I realized that FVV is gone and they probably don’t want to just go ahead with Schroder at the point.