2021-22 Game Thread: Knicks vs. Raptors: Will the Season End With One Last Meaningless Win?

The Raptors don’t have anything to play for tonight, while Thibs has the very important “Winning record through two seasons as a Knicks coach” record to play for tonight, so expect the Knicks to pull this one out.

That could be a problem, because the New Orleans Pelicans have locked up the #9 seed in the Western Conference and CJ McCollum has already tweeted (and then deleted) a tweet that suggested he won’t be playing much tonight, so the Pelicans (who are currently tied with the Knicks for the 11th worst record in the NBA) will quite possibly lose tonight against the Warriors, and thus a Knick win would send the Knicks towards their destiny, the 12th pick. However, a loss and a Pellies win would make the Knicks the default 11th pick and hell, even a split (where both the Knicks and the Pellies have the same result) would still leave the Knicks tied for the 11th, which is sadly a lot better than I ever expected, so that’s something!

Let’s go, someone!

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140 thoughts to “2021-22 Game Thread: Knicks vs. Raptors: Will the Season End With One Last Meaningless Win?”

  1. Alan: Quickley starting tonight, but only because RJ is taking the finale off. Thibs claims IQ and Burks will be “interchangeable” in the backcourt. Sigh.

    And how is that? Without RJ doesn’t Burks have to be our starting SF?

  2. The Pels will win, Brian. Have faith. ;)
    And then Pop will surprise everybody and qualify the Spurs to the playoffs, by beating the Pels and the loser of the 7th/8th game. :)

  3. And then Pop will surprise everybody and qualify the Spurs to the playoffs, by beating the Pels and the loser of the 7th/8th game. :)

    Your lips to Silver’s ears.

  4. Washington lost to guarantee no tie with the Knicks. Boy, the #10 pick was really in my view a little bit ago.

  5. Fucking biggest sigh in the whole damn world

    @IanBegley
    Leon Rose tells MSGN’s Mike Breen that he thinks Tom Thibodeau prepares NYK better than anyone, is one of NBA’s top coaches. Rose: “I feel that he’s done a good job under the circumstances.” Rose adds that no one w/NYK is happy with results this season.

  6. Hehehe. Leon Rose is hilarious. He really is trying to play the game. I guess, in the end, it all comes down to Dolan, right? If Dolan wasn’t Dolan, guys like Rose A. wouldn’t be hired and B. if they were hired, wouldn’t think that they had to walk on tiptoes with all of their moves, because any bold move could get them fired if it doesn’t work right away. Meanwhile, Thibs might never coach again after the Knicks, so that dude is not losing this job without a fight, so he’s playing the game, as well. It’s like Game of fucking Thrones out here.

  7. I hate all of this, even though the Rose administration has done some nice things here and there.

  8. Last game. Go Obi/IQ.

    Clyde’s lapel says, “Rubirosa Ristorante” — huh? Hahaha. Sneaky commercial?

  9. Alan:
    Fucking biggest sigh in the whole damn world

    Are “the circumstances” Derrick Rose missing so many games, or the emergence of Crazy Randall?

    Both?

  10. [Extremely fake Dolph Sweet voice in Heaven Can Wait]
    Obi Toppin’s looking awful good…

  11. @IanBegley
    Leon Rose was asked by MSGN’s Mike Breen about the reasons behind Julius Randle’s subpar season. “I think it was just not being comfortable at times…he gave it his best effort.” Rose added that he thought Randle carried a big burden, which may have affected his play at times.

    Obviously, Leon can’t shit on a player he is (hopefully) trying to move, but I hate it nonetheless.

  12. [Extremely fake Dolph Sweet voice in Heaven Can Wait]
    Obi Toppin’s looking awful good…

    Maybe a tad too cool?
    Thank Heaven we already have 38 minutes at PF locked for next season…

  13. Nice reverse stuff by Obi.

    One thing that’s surprised me this year — his body control when shooting at the rim. That last drive is an example — he often looks like he’s losing control and going to fall to the floor, but then he hold control long enough to put the ball on the backboard right where he wants it with a soft touch.

  14. Obi’s one hand floater from where? Haha. Is that sustainable? If so, we may have a special player.

  15. I’m trying to imagine Randle’s defense this year if he didn’t give his best effort…

  16. Rose knows what he has to do this off season.

    1. Either re-sign Mitch or replace him with a better C.

    2. Get a starting PG and preferably add a backup also.

    3. Make a decision on Toppin/Randle

    4. Anything else that can upgrade a position short and long term

  17. I respect the hype announcer has a job to do, but are the Knicks City Dancers truly “iconic”?

  18. Summer League games are always fun…

    It’s 100% a Summer League game. I can’t take anything in this game as meaning anything, so just have fun with what we do get.

  19. Things to keep your interest:

    Obi getting 30.

    Sims getting 20 rebounds.

    Quick getting a triple double.

    Feron getting his first NBA basket.

  20. Max:
    Seriously, can anyone imagine Obi going back to 12 minutes a game next year?

    Yes, his last name rhymes with Glib-a-go

  21. Haha. “Glass!”

    Another thing about Obi: If this production is sustainable, it says a lot about his character that he hasn’t said peep throughout this whole saga with Thibs as Captain Hook.

  22. Max: Seriously, can anyone imagine Obi going back to 12 minutes a game next year?

    You mean the backup quarterback?

  23. haha. Yeah, I think it was King (video and film coordinator). Point being King just gave a glowing report to Rebecca about how Obi is a real student of the game and watches a lot of film. The knives are out.

  24. So with the recent strong play of Obi and IQ, what combination of RJ and those 2 would you be willing to part with to get Spider or Zion? (Obviously not all 3)

  25. d-mar:
    So with the recent strong play of Obi and IQ, what combination of RJ and those 2 would you be willing to part with to get Spider or Zion? (Obviously not all 3)

    John Salley coming back? ;-)

  26. Breen and I on the same page. Last few games, Sims keeps spinning AWAY from the basket after getting it deep in the paint, leaving him in no-man’s land. Once he learns to spin TOWARD the basket he’s going to start scoring a lot more buckets.

  27. I know most of us think that playing it safe for Leon would be to keep Randle, but on the other hand if he trades him and Obi shines, his 2020 draft would look much better.

  28. Leon’s words confirm that he won’t be doing anything bold, just keep doing the no harm done plan.

  29. Things to keep your interest:
    Obi getting 30. ***DONE***
    Sims getting 20 rebounds.
    Quick getting a triple double.
    Feron getting his first NBA basket.

  30. Starting to think we should bet the house on point quickley, trade the vets, and draft Tari Eason.

    Also would be totally fine with an IQ/TyTy backcourt though

  31. cybersoze: No. Why do you insist? How can you top Patrick Ewing?

    Besides Ewing I believe Gerald Wilkens was also drafted that year.

  32. Was gonna put some homer money down at the half for an IQ TD and Obi dropping 40 if Sportsbook interfaces weren’t terrible lmao

  33. Out of all meaningless late season wins, and this is our specialty around here, this was the most enjoyable one. This is what we wanted, play these dudes relevant minutes and let then go at it to see what happens.

  34. All of a sudden we got ourselves two new starters for next year…

    Will they learn (you know who I’m talking about)? Only time will tell…

  35. cybersoze: No. Why do you insist? How can you top Patrick Ewing?

    He was the #1 pick and was a no brainer. Anyone could have made that choice.

  36. Bruno Almeida: Out of all meaningless late season wins, and this is our specialty around here, this was the most enjoyable one. This is what we wanted, play these dudes relevant minutes and let then go at it to see what happens.

    Exactly. This was a fun one. And Jokic, Giannis and D-Mitchell were all on the board for pick 12, so let’s hope there’s a good player there when it’s our turn to select.

  37. That stat blew my mind. Knicks had 5 players score 40 points this year. Insane.

    Man what a frustrating season. Some poor coaching from Thibs and a mental and shooting breakdown from Randle doomed us. A very interesting off-season looms with decisions on Mitch, draft, and potential trades and free agency. Thibs is probably back next season but with I hope a very short leash because losing that many games while holding double digit leads is inexcusable.

    For the playoffs, I hate literally everyone in the East so I’ll be rooting for Ja and the Grizzles out west. But would be surprised at a repeat finals of last year with Suns and Bucks…

  38. It sucks that the season is ending just as IQ & Obi are looking like future all-stars

  39. Z-man:
    Well that agony is over….here’s to the lottery!

    Well, I’m pretty sure we can’t move DOWN in the lottery, so as Carl Spackler would say, we got that going for us.

  40. Let’s hope our young guys can do this when opponents actually care.

    I definitely love listening to LRose say “draft picks draft picks draft picks.”

    Such a disappointing season, but hope remains.

    Wally and Alan now arguing about whether this is real or an aberration. Haha. Here we go until next year.

  41. Who would be surprised if this is next year’s opening day lineup:
    Starters: Rose, Fournier, RJ, Randle, Nerlens
    Second unit: IQ, Grimes, Reddish, Obi, Sims
    Situational: Taj, Deuce, Draft picks

    Mitch, Burks and Kemba are gone.
    -Mitch signs with Detriot for 4yrs/$60mill
    -Burks is traded for draft picks
    -Kemba is waived

  42. Except for the win thing, this game was the perfect narrative.

    They’ll have to ignore 41-10 and 34-10-12. Plus Sims with ‘only’ 14 rebounds.

  43. DudeInKnicksTown: He was the #1 pick and was a no brainer. Anyone could have made that choice.

    But what do you mean by “best draft ever” then? We drafted Willis Reed in 1964, Clyde in 1967 and Ewing in 1985, those are probably the contenders for best draft ever in my opinion.

  44. PS — Pito: Obi didn’t have 12 made threes for the season until January. He has 12 made threes in the last two games! Alan shouts back: Out of 23! Haha.

  45. Been more of a lurker this season, but post final game of the season, just wanted to say it has been a pleasure following the Knicks with the KB community for another season. Thanks for all your insights, opinions and genral banter. Looking forward to pivoting to lottery and draft discourse.

  46. Knicks almost ended the season with a positive point differential, finished I believe 11 pts short.

  47. Tbh I’m not all that torn up about the meaningless end of season wins. They largely came on the back of youth but also I think the second tier of this draft (anything past like, Keegan Murray and AK Griffin) is really undifferentiated. There’s a lot of interesting talent (Mathurin, Eason, Washington, Daniels, Sharpe, Duren, Edwards, and Williams, though I don’t want the latter three really) in that second tier and undoubtedly one of those guys is going to be available at 12 and they’re all approximately equal on my big board. So we’re in a good draft position even discounting the possibility of moving up, in my view.

  48. Now i’m the pessimist, Brian. I’ve already made my peace with our fate – pick 12.

  49. I would still rather have Hali, probably, but my goodness, do I enjoy watching Obi when he gets significant minutes.

  50. That stat blew my mind. Knicks had 5 players score 40 points this year. Insane.

    Obi, RJ and who else? I could guess, but I can’t watch the Knicks telecast so can someone please tell me?

  51. I think it would be fair to call next season the rubber match. Rose/Thibs won season 1 and lost season 2.

  52. Obi, RJ and who else? I could guess, but I can’t watch the Knicks telecast so can someone please tell me?

    Fournier, Kemba and I assume Randle must have done it, as well.

  53. Knick fan not in NJ: Obi, RJ and who else? I could guess, but I can’t watch the Knicks telecast so can someone please tell me?

    Randle has 46 against Sacramento, and Fournier had 41 against that team against which he always plays like a superstar – our beloved Celtics. LOL

  54. Alan:
    I would still rather have Hali, probably, but my goodness, do I enjoy watching Obi when he gets significant minutes.

    Agreed, but I’ve said this before…Leon & Co. seem to prefer guys in the draft who were not great college players to start and then worked their way into being stars. That’s true for Obi, IQ, Grimes and Deuce. Maybe less true for Sims but he’s a 4-year player who obviously has a great work ethic and doesn’t say much. Rokas is sort of hard to gauge. But I think it’s fair to say that every single one of their 6 draft picks have improved substantially since being drafted. That says something about both their drafting and their player development philosophy.

    One guy who doesn’t fit the mold is Reddish. Using a likely mid-first rounder was baffling to me.

  55. KB Apprentice:
    On one thing we all agree, though, right? No Nets title. Period.

    Kyrie can suck eggs. (But damn he’s good…)

    Thybulle also turns out to be unvaccinated. He can’t play in Toronto, and he also just got cut from my favorite players roster.

  56. KB Apprentice: On one thing we all agree, though, right? No Nets title. Period.

    Agreed. Also no title to Celtics or Miami*. I’m also not a fan of Philly or Chicago.
    * – i’m from the 90s, i hate Miami. :D

  57. I would have guessed Fournier and Randle, but whatever game Kemba had 40 I completely forgot about

  58. I would have guessed Fournier and Randle, but whatever game Kemba had 40 I completely forgot about

    The Knicks lost the game by seven! It was his third game back after returning from the doghouse.

  59. You know, if you had told me when Rose took over that the team would play over 0.500 ball for the next two years and end up with a lot of young players who are improving and fun to watch, I would have been skeptical. And we still have draft picks coming too. Therefore I’m happy with Rose and companies management.

  60. If we had a different coach, and/or if Randle was going to be off our books in a few months, I’d be mostly just fine with the Rose regime. But I will be shocked if Obi is getting 30+ minutes a game come fall.

  61. In fairness come fall the competition Obi will be facing is gonna be alot different than the crap he’s faced past 2 games.

  62. cybersoze: But what do you mean by “best draft ever” then? We drafted Willis Reed in 1964, Clyde in 1967 and Ewing in 1985, those are probably the contenders for best draft ever in my opinion.

    This could very well have been the last Knicks game I’ll ever see so please cut me some slack. Thanks.

  63. Knick fan not in NJ:
    You know, if you had told me when Rose took over that the team would play over 0.500 ball for the next two years and end up with a lot of young players who are improving and fun to watch, I would have been skeptical.And we still have draft picks coming too. Therefore I’m happy with Rose and companies management.

    The bar has been so low for so long that I honestly don’t know how to feel. I guess “patient” is the best I can come up with. Maybe “guarded” is better? It has been far from perfect and the “haters” are at least somewhat justified in their pessimism. But I like the team and I want to see how things play out.

    We are patient with rookies like RJ, Obi and IQ. What we tend to forget is that Leon was a rookie last year and this is his first experience with disappointment as POBO. One bright side to this year’s “failure” is that it’s clear that we are a long way from contending…maybe if we finished 7th, there might have been some kind of illusion that we were just a blockbuster deal away. That’s why I think it’s fair to withhold judgment until we see what this team looks like in 2023-24. By then we will know what the deal is with RJ, Cam, Obi, IQ, Sims, Deuce, Rokas and the 3 #1 picks we have forthcoming, Rose, Noel, and Burks will likely be gone, we will know what’s up with Julius and Fornier, and maybe some big splashes are made with trades/FA signings.

  64. DudeInKnicksTown: This could very well have been the last Knicks game I’ll ever see so please cut me some slack. Thanks.

    Hell no, Dude, you’re a big part of what we do here!

  65. DudeInKnicksTown: This could very well have been the last Knicks game I’ll ever see so please cut me some slack. Thanks.

    If we’re all lucky, the Knicks’ ownership team and front office will be thrown into the East River, so I hope we’re right there with you, there.

  66. Z-man: Who would be surprised if this is next year’s opening day lineup:
    Starters: Rose, Fournier, RJ, Randle, Nerlens
    Second unit: IQ, Grimes, Reddish, Obi, Sims
    Situational: Taj, Deuce, Draft picks

    I wouldn’t be surprised but I’d be pretty disappointed if after finishing in literally the worst position in the sport, we decided to pretty much run it back and hope something better happened.

    We have to move materially in one direction or the other. My preferred option is well-known: trade all the vets, get as many draft picks as you can, etc. Based on the last few weeks who’s to say this would even make us worse?

    If we don’t do that though, these guys better find a way to upgrade the team. Hovering around .500 for multiple years in a row is quite literally exactly what is being described with the phrase “treadmill of mediocrity.”

    Now for an optimistic opinion that’s also a bit of a hot take: I would say the O/U on Obi Toppin all-star appearances has moved from 0.5 to 1.5.

  67. Fucking Pellies. Few things more Knicks than to lock in the #12 pick on the final game of the season with a meaningless win.

  68. The 2022 baseball season has officially begun after the Yankees 1st super stupid annoying loss of the season. Only took 3 games!

  69. thenoblefacehumper: If we don’t do that though, these guys better find a way to upgrade the team. Hovering around .500 for multiple years in a row is quite literally exactly what is being described with the phrase “treadmill of mediocrity.”

    I don’t think they will do “that.” Thibs is coming back, and that pretty much shuts the door on “trade all the vets” direction. I think Randle, Rose and Noel, and one of either Burks or Fournier, are back. In the unlikely event that Mitch is back, Noel is probably gone, but I just don’t see Mitch returning.

    Now will they shop some of those guys or listen to offers? Maybe, but the lack of movement at the trade deadline (and Weitzman’s article) suggests that they ask for too much in return for deals to happen. But for me, sht silver lining is that our young guys have upped their market value to the point that we can maybe package 2 or 3 of them with some draft picks for a bonafide star. Or alternatively, one of the kids along with 2 vets.

    Mediocrity isn’t great but having promising kids, surplus draft picks, and cap flexibility (even if it is rooted in vets on market-value deals) means that there are possibilities. Things can happen fast if those things are managed wisely. That’s why I’m waiting until 2023-24 to fully judge this regime.

  70. This offseason is big. They have to show some improvement next year or I don’t think they will last. If they trade all the vets for draft picks, they will definitely be setting up their successors nicely.

  71. GHenman: They have to show some improvement next year or I don’t think they will last.

    I don’t think Rose is going anywhere unless next year is an abject disaster. Even though it’s not the complete teardown that some here want, it is indeed a “rebuild” and Rose asked for patience and suggested that it was not a one or two year process. There are only two non-rookie deals on the books for multiple years and Randle or Fournier aren’t making anywhere near max money. There’s lots of flexibility and that can be sold to Dolan so long as MSG keeps selling out and fans keep chanting for the current players.

  72. Next year we should be a playoff team for the simple reason that Kemba Walker won’t play 1000 minutes.

    Other Notes:
    -Sims looks like a legit backup C at minimum

    -Obi is better than Randle & maybe Hali

    -IQ is on the verge of a breakout year

    -Grimes is a solid starter with upside

    If the FO drafts this well, then they can fuck up a lot of other stuff and still be a net positive.

  73. I’m not sure why Rose will be the starter next year and IQ the backup. I think IQ could win the starting job

  74. Vogel getting told he’s getting fired by reporters at his post gamer presser is fucked up but also incredibly funny

  75. ***Obi is better than Randle & maybe Hali***

    We’ve been at this a long time, why now are we throwing out sample size in favor of two 48 minute “extended garbage time” (Albert, Marv, c. 1994) games?

  76. DRed:
    Vogel getting told he’s getting fired by reporters at his post gamer presser is fucked up but also incredibly funny

    I agree

  77. Victor Oladipo scored 40 tonight, so, yeah, I agree that we probably shouldn’t read too much into these Summer League-esque games where the Knicks are (almost) the only team in the league actually trying to still win games.

    That said, that Obi and IQ can do this at all is still very good news!

  78. Donnie Walsh:
    ***Obi is better than Randle & maybe Hali***

    We’ve been at this a long time, why now are we throwing out sample size in favor of two 48 minute “extended garbage time” (Albert, Marv, c. 1994) games?

    It’s not the last 2 games, Obi has played better than Hali & Randle for the whole season according to LEBRON & EPM. RAPTOR has Obi behind Hali, but well ahead of Randle.

    Randle or Hali being better players than Obi is a preconceived notion that falters when looked at with several advanced metrics.

  79. We don’t know anything about Obi other than he has the tools to be a good player. We can’t legitimately compare him to Randle because he has never played Randle’s role of high usage #1 offensive option who also defends some of the NBA’s most prolific forwards and switches onto starting guards and centers. The recent stretch is cause for guarded optimism, but I’m not concluding anything beyond that.

  80. DudeInKnicksTown: This could very well have been the last Knicks game I’ll ever see so please cut me some slack. Thanks.

    Not in the slightest i was trying to pick on you, Dude. It’s just that Patrick Ewing is my favorite Knick.
    Sending you some love, you’re a brave example for us all, man.

  81. Looks like they were looking for Obi to get all the shots up and he delivered. It’s fun to see the young guys rooting for each other like that, I hope they keep them together.

    Although if Obi cannot defend 3s (as people here are saying) and stays a weak rebounder he’s an electrifying 6th man, not a starter.

  82. The Bucks managed to end the regular season perfectly, and are now scheduled to play the Bulls in the first round, instead of the Nets if they were the 2nd seed. Now the Celtics and the Nets will battle it out in the first round.

  83. Early Bird: It’s not the last 2 games, Obi has played better than Hali & Randle for the whole season according to LEBRON & EPM. RAPTOR has Obi behind Hali, but well ahead of Randle.

    RAPTOR says Jakob Poetl is a better player than Karl-Anthony Towns, Mikal Bridges better than LeBron James, Desmond Bane is better than Demar Derozan, etc.

    LeBron says Mikal Bridges is as important to winning as Kevin Durant and that KP is way better than KAT.

  84. The first two years of the Rose regime has been a mixed bag. I think there have been more negative instances than positive ones, but the impact of the positive instances (namely IQ, Obi, Grimes) seem like they could outweigh the negative.

    This is what the sum of a series of short-sighted decisions with no long-term vision looks like. Leon needs to commit to a way. It’s either a vet-laden team built around Thibs, Randle, and DRose; or a long-term build without Thibs and Randle.

    What I hate about LRose is I think he’s going to keep playing it down the middle, and that’s the road to nowhere.

  85. Z-man: Hell no, Dude, you’re a big part of what we do here!

    Thank you, but some things are out of our hands.

  86. Hubert:
    The first two years of the Rose regime has been a mixed bag. I think there have been more negative instances than positive ones, but the impact of the positive instances (namely IQ, Obi, Grimes) seem like they could outweigh the negative.

    This is what the sum of a series of short-sighted decisions with no long-term vision looks like. Leon needs to commit to a way. It’s either a vet-laden team built around Thibs, Randle, and DRose; or a long-term build without Thibs and Randle.

    What I hate about LRose is I think he’s going to keep playing it down the middle, and that’s the road to nowhere.

    This is all fair. I agree that playing it down the middle is a hard needle to thread, but it’s not necessarily a “road to nowhere” if executed prudently, Lots of the current contending teams successfully executed some version of this strategy.

    The two most critical components of the strategy as it currently stands are Julius and RJ. Everything else is small potatoes as far as I’m concerned.

  87. My 2nd chemo regimen has stopped working, so I’m going back to the 1st treatment regimen, which may have some effectiveness remaining. I’ve lost over 30 pounds recently because when I eat I become ill and vomit. The fluid buildup in my abdomen is getting worse, requiring a paracentesis every 2 weeks now. I’m hoping that the 1st treatment regimen can help me. Thanks to all of you.

  88. DudeInKnicksTown:
    My 2nd chemo regimen has stopped working, so I’m going back to the 1st treatment regimen, which may have some effectiveness remaining. I’ve lost over 30 pounds recently because when I eat I become ill and vomit. The fluid buildup in my abdomen is getting worse, requiring a paracentesis every 2 weeks now. I’m hoping that the 1st treatment regimen can help me. Thanks to all of you.

    Damn, Dude. So sorry to hear that. You are one very strong dude, so if anyone can beat this, it’s you. If anyone deserves to see the Knicks make it past the first round of the playoffs, it is also you. Stay optimistic and positive and know that you have the love and respect of the entire KB community.

  89. Bo Nateman: Damn, Dude. So sorry to hear that. You are one very strong dude, so if anyone can beat this, it’s you. If anyone deserves to see the Knicks make it past the first round of the playoffs, it is also you. Stay optimistic and positive and know that you have the love and respect of the entire KB community.

    For sure

  90. Dude, you’re tougher than any Knicks team I’ve ever watched. It’s incredible you still find the time and energy to come here and contribute, and your contributions are valuable even if I disagree with a lot of them. Keep fighting the good fight.

  91. DudeInKnicksTown:
    My 2nd chemo regimen has stopped working, so I’m going back to the 1st treatment regimen, which may have some effectiveness remaining. I’ve lost over 30 pounds recently because when I eat I become ill and vomit. The fluid buildup in my abdomen is getting worse, requiring a paracentesis every 2 weeks now. I’m hoping that the 1st treatment regimen can help me. Thanks to all of you.

    Damn, Dude. Will keep you in my thoughts, as I’m sure we all will here.

    Bo Nateman: Damn, Dude. So sorry to hear that. You are one very strong dude, so if anyone can beat this, it’s you. If anyone deserves to see the Knicks make it past the first round of the playoffs, it is also you. Stay optimistic and positive and know that you have the love and respect of the entire KB community.

    Amen!

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