Knicks Morning News (2018.08.03)

from yesterday’s thread. Pierce was clutch. Melo was not. – Major difference.

I always hated the smirk on his face when he missed the game winning or game tying shots; it was always about Melo getting his; winning was great but not necessary; nothing terribly wrong with that… but it is what it is. No shame in a career where one makes HOF in their field of practice and earns a quarter billion dollars in the process. Melo achieved his primary goals. Winning titles was secondary. May even get that in Houston.

Just hope he didn’t poison KP’s psychology. TBD.

What evidence do you have that Melo ruined KP? Just curious where you see this. Is it bc KP shoots mid range shots? Is it bc KP isn’t a great passer yet? Cause whenever people bring up this idea that Melo “ruined” KP, these are the only pieces of evidence they can present. Oh, and the fact that he skipped an exit interview with Phil Jackson, who was super toxic and horrible but somehow that act means KP is a pre madonna even though KP probably helped get Phil fired, which was a good thing for the franchise.

Oh boy! A thread about “clutchiness.” No thread will better capture the spirit of Knickerblogger than one with literally no empirical evidence whatsoever.

I think the best thing about Melo is that I absolutely don’t give a shit about him one way or the other. He was here, he didn’t produce to his contract….we’ve seen that over and over again. We don’t hate on Jarred Jeffries.

Melo had an unusually high FG% in those situations for a while, and then regression hit him like a stack of bricks and it tanked. It’s funny, because regression doesn’t work like karma (i.e. you won’t necessarily regress to the point where your numbers reflect your true talent level just because you were previously over performing) but in this case it actually did.

Kinda tells you all you need to know about clutchiness, no?

I know “clutchiness” is generally mocked, and for good reason.

However, Reggie Jackson, Jeter and Jordan are 3 guys that had “it”, whatever “it” is. Even Bill James Himself has grudgingly come to grips with the existence of “it” in some players.

I don’t believe melo had “it”. melo was relatively highly skilled at making difficult shots and also very streaky, so that gave the illusion to the dim witted that he was this great money player.

Can we all agree that Melo was not a James Harden level choke artist (or star to be fair) at least?

Well, if Melo didn’t shoot his team out of games so many times with his inefficient game, he probably wouldn’t have had so many opportunities to show his clutchiness, so I guess that’s kinda the point.

Of course it’s harder to hit a shot in the big moments in big games, but most people tend to not rely too much on clutch stats because a basket is always worth either 1, 2 or 3 points anyway and a shot made in the first quarter adds to the score just as much as the clutch shot.

I think it’s a cute discussion for a while but it really sucks when it becomes a narrative that tries to frame players careers into the clutch or choker label, when there’s so many factors involved that get ignored.

The idea of “clutchiness” is scoffed at not because some people aren’t cooler under pressure than others. They are. It is the idea that a shot in the last minute is worth more than a shot in the first 47 minutes that rankles clutch-deniers.

It’s as if a player with a overall .530TS% but a last minute TS% of .600 is seen as more valuable to winning than a player with those numbers reversed. This is probably because most people are only really paying attention to the last two minutes of a game, and they make the highlight reels.

Jordan won some games at the last second. But he won tons of games by dominating quarters 1, 2, and 3. With an MOV of +10, who cares how “clutch” you are?

I agree that it’s less of a thing at the pro level than at amateur levels. By the time you make it to the pros, the mentally weak are weeded out, so the differences in mental toughness/clutchiness are much smaller.
I see good amateur pool players absolutely fall apart under pressure/adversity – that’s one reason they’ll always be amateurs.

How about those streetballers who were talking shit about Trey Burke because they thought they hung with him at Dyckman Park. Let’s see how they do in front of 20k people in a structured environment with Andre Roberson or Jimmy Butler in their face all game.

The idea of “clutchiness” is scoffed at not because some people aren’t cooler under pressure than others. They are. It is the idea that a shot in the last minute is worth more than a shot in the first 47 minutes that rankles clutch-deniers.

I think the idea (though I’m not necessarily agreeing with it) is that teams don’t play at 100% for every possession. They rate themselves. That doesn’t mean they aren’t playing hard. It’s that the very extreme 100% all out energy level (especially on defense) is reserved for key possessions. Usually, those possessions occur at the end of the game. So while the first 45 minutes of the game swamp the last 3 minutes in importance and value, the value per minute may be higher in crunch time at the end.

In order to be clutch you have to first get excited about the opportunity aka..the stage. Then you need to have a killer instinct; an assassin mentality; if you ever knew someone who made their living on the streets than you recognize what I’m talking about because with one look on their face you knew what time it was. (my personal all favorites are Terry Porter, Robert Horry, Sam Cassell, Shaq, Chauncey Billups, Kobe, MJ, Reggie Miller, Mario Ellie, Manu, etc)…Stats cant capture this, only body language can and if you ever played ball at any level with the score tied and next point wins, and had to guard a clutch baller who just wont be denied then you know what I’m talking about. Stats don’t paint this story correctly yet…need physiological and psychological data elements too not just percentages.

I only mentioned Melo’s clutch in comparison to Paul Pierce..aka the truth. Look up some videos of Paul Pierce’s body language bursting with excitement while coach is drawing plays and then watch his face and body language turn to that of an assassin during execution. Then look at both joy and pain on his face after he makes/misses shot. Both him and Melo are HOFers but Paul is a bad boy.

Donnie Walsh @ 24, …we talking about clutch here..Big shot Bob? one of the most clutch guys in history of the league; Really? even Kobe trusted him to pass him the ball and defer to him shooting an open three; best role player in history of the league; never tried to be too much, knew who he was and was conformable in his own skin. Winning teams wanted him on their team. In his 15 year career, he made playoffs every year while hitting a ton of clutch shots and making the right plays; Went to finals 7 times and walked away with 7 championship rings.

I’d go with Melo’s: 232M > 53M.

I would absolutely love to be in Horry’s place, he has played with so many hall of famers and in so many incredible teams.

But yeah, I’d rather be Melo with 7 less rings and 180 million more, probably because I’m poor, but mostly because I would love to be as delusional in relation to my skills as Melo is. It must be really fun.

Re: the last thread:
I saw Bernard King.
I knew Bernard King.
I did coke with Bernard King.
melo is no Bernard King.

Melo won a NCAA championship, three Olympic gold medals and will end his career in the Hall of Fame.

I mean, winning titles must be nice, but let’s not talk like Melo’s career has been devoid of any accolades. There’s also the feeling of being the guy most of his career, instead of the fact on Horry’s career that he was carried to all of those titles by his hall of fame teammates, which definitely means something in terms of how your peers respect you and see your career.

180 million would be incredibly substantial in my decision so I won’t be cynical about it, I’d choose Melo’s career any day.

Funny that the biggest leftists on here prefer the $ and prestige over winning.
Not surprising, but funny.

Yeah… because your life happiness increases soooooo many orders of magnitude when you have 230M over 50M! I guess you’ll just have to settle for 200 ft yacht rather than the QEII.

What a dumb connection to try to make.

@35

Who said I want the bigger amount of money to increase my life’s happiness?

Just because you think in a selfish way doesn’t mean everybody else does.