Knicks Take on Cade Cunningham and Luke Garza as Summer League Continues

Rokas has looked good so far.

Obi is bad, but we might have something in Rokas?

Give me Sims over Simms any day of the week.

Grimes locking Cade down

Signs of life from Grimes and Joku! Fun to see

IQ has to stop relying on that floater from the top of the key.

Deuce should be running the offense and IQ should be mostly shooting threes. IQ isn’t a point guard.

Looks like Obi had a helluva 2nd half at least.

what happened to the folks who keep the floor dry…in most of the summer league games I’ve seen there’s been at least a few dangerous slips in each…

c’mon nba, turn up the air and hire some folks to keep the court safe…

I still think we are making a mistake letting him walk when we could probably get him for the same price as Vildoza (who is going to add nothing to this team). With Kemba, Fournier, and Randle there are now lineups where you can stick Frank in the corner to take an occasional 3, get his defense, and lose almost nothing on offense. You couldn’t do that with Bullock and Payton.

I hope he at least winds up somewhere he fits like Dallas, Golden State, Brooklyn etc.. He belongs in the NBA not in France.

I think that makes 3 games for Rokas, so he’s back to Spain barring any unforeseen cuts.

He’s played well in his limited minutes. Definitely has a shot at being a rotation player.

Obi looked great when he didn’t have to dribble more than once but a lot of that was at the five against Garza.
Grimes’ Bball IQ looks high we’ll see if that’s enough to overcome the athletic shortcomings.
Everyone else tonight, yuck.

Recap:
Cade couldn’t miss from 3
IQ was off
McBride was WAY off
Grimes looked better
Obi had a very nice game on both ends
Joku was fine
Final score was misleading, good ol’fashioned Knicks fake comeback

Cade looks real.
IQ couldn’t hit the broad side of a barn.
Obi was a stud.
Deuce and Grimes can play defense.
Joku is a good stash – may never play in the NBA.
The Knicks missed Simms.
Seldon will help some team.

Well, got a feel for the game by your comments, so thanks guys. 🙂
Only got a little confused because i was just getting ready to trade Obi, and then after the 2nd half it’s better to keep him after all. LOL

Grimes looked much more promising last night.

And the best part of Obi’s game was how diversified it was on offense. The foul line jumper, the post moves, etc. There were a lot of tricks he didn’t seem to have in his bag a year ago.

Anyone else find it odd that Sims was held out for “rest”? We sure have a lot of big men and assets right now that could be used to acquire someone like Myles Turner.

Raven, here are the Obi highlights. With the “It’s Summer League” caveat, his repertoire looked really good.

Hopefully the second half won’t be the peak of Obi’s professional career.

I find Garza kind of intriguing. Seems like a guy who might have a long low wattage career.

I really really want to be optimistic about Obi, but I just have the feeling when he gets back to playing against real NBA defenses, we’re gonna see the same old tentative, awkward Obi.

How would you answer the question: what is Obi good at? (please don’t answer “dunking”)

danvt:
The skills needed to be a pg:
Speed, quick first step
Ambidexterity: Dribble and finish with both hands
Low dribble
Court vision
On time passes with perfect aim (also both hands)
High Outside FG%
Ability to draw fouls
High FT %
Coach on the floor (run plays)
Ability to stop players with similar skills

Hardest position in basketball? I’d vote yes.

So, Z-Man (or anyone). You ever seen any great PG that lacked any of that? Mark Jackson once bragged on TV that he never took a lefty layup in his whole career and he’s 4th in assists all time. Not terrible stats from him 33% from 3. 44% FG and 8 ast. He always seemed a limited player though and I wonder if his stuff would play at all in the modern league.

Seems like you can lack a key skill at other positions (like Steve Novak) but not at PG.

There’s probably a prerequisite baseline skillset but it’s more a matter of the blend of skills that makes a guy able to handle lead guard responsibilities. There’s so many versions of successful lead guards who are mediocre at one of the skills you listed but still carved out good to great careers in the NBA. You have to be able to score reasonably effectively in some way, you have to have a high enough B-Ball IQ to read the game at a high level and make your teammates better, and you have to be physically capable of playing the position after NBA defenses have scouted you and know your weaknesses. You can mask one glaring weakness but not several. Theres always several glaring holes that explain why the Jonny Flynns, Josh Selbys. DSjrs, Jimmer Fredettes, Frank Ntilikinas etc. don’t have a place as a PG in the NBA.

Obi isn’t great at anything right now but he shows really nice flashes in several areas. He looks terrible when he drives into the teeth of the defense but when he is running the floor or slashing he seems to have some nice ways to score. He is still pretty terrible on D but has made some plays and blocked some shots. I’m going to give him more time before passing judgment.

As I celebrate today my 35th year on earth, it strikes me that I have spent well over half of my adult life lurking and trolling this board. I am not sure how I feel about that.

Gotta say, I really thought Strat might just eventually say something along the lines of “I thought Frank Ntilikina was good, but now that he’s been terrible for four seasons and zero NBA teams have shown interest in him, it appears I was wrong.”

The Honorable Cock Jowles:
As I celebrate today my 35th year on earth, it strikes me that I have spent well over half of my adult life lurking and trolling this board. I am not sure how I feel about that.

Happy Birthday THCJ! I’ll never forget the one time you praised Melo after his performance in Game 2 at Boston, I’m sure if Ruru was still around he’d wish you a Happy Birthday too.

The Honorable Cock Jowles:
As I celebrate today my 35th year on earth, it strikes me that I have spent well over half of my adult life lurking and trolling this board. I am not sure how I feel about that.

A linchpin of KB at 35.* The bigger question may be where do you go from here?
* begs the question, how might you have better spent the time than here? ( Big Fish, Big Pond) Happy birthday.

So what about Simmons? Can he overcome his one deficiency and achieve his hall of fame potential?

Happy birthday Jowles!! For better or worse, I’ve been reading your takes here for just about half my life.

Happy Birthday!! You may be 35 but the from all the pictures you have posted your glutes look 22. Hope you have a great one….

One of Deuce’s bricks must have hit the KB server…

reading…reading…reading…laughing…that was good…

Immanuel Quickley (sore groin) and Luca Vildoza (sore right foot) are out for today’s Summer League game. Rokas Jokubaitis has left the team and returned to Spain.

I find Garza kind of intriguing. Seems like a guy who might have a long low wattage career.

there’s been a number of centers playing in the summer league that have looked good…

travis or simms haven’t looked very good…it really isn’t that hard though to find a decent skilled back up big man…

DudeInKnicksTown: Next man up.

And the next man is DEUCE

BTW it’s Magic Johnson’s birthday too. There, Jowles, I set it up on a tee for you…

Happy Birthday Jowles

Obi doesn’t know what he’s doing. He’s all energy.

I miss Joku.

Grimey making some nice plays tonight

Grimes…en fuego

Nice bounce-back game from Deuce. Neither he nor Grimes have Allan Houston shooting mechanics but the ball comes off well and goes in. Quick releases.

Stevens for the Cavs is ballin

yeah…toppin is a fish on defense

nice finish to the half…rooks can shoot

McBride and Grimes are red hot from 3

Deuce and Grimes on fiyah!

Obi’s catch-and-shoot doesn’t look much smoother this year.

Grimes has real nice vision

It’s weird that Grimes has seemed so hot and yet he’s only 5-14 and 3-9 from 3. He’s a good rebounder for a guard for sure.

DRed:
Who is MJ Walker?

Wasn’t he a US Marshal in an old western?

Lamar Mundane Stevens

Deuce is a rim protector.

Grimes attacking the rim with force.

McBride, then Grimes with pressure buckets.

The kids can shoot

I like Deuce as our 3rd point guard more than IQ, who should play at the two. Much less turnovers.

I think the most likely outcome is that both Deuce and Grimes will be with the big team most of the time, with occasional G-League stints possible to get them reps. Barring a trade, of course!

At this juncture I think the depth chart is like this:

PG: 1) Kemba Walker 2) Derrick Rose 3) Miles McBride 4) Luca Vildoza
SG: 1) RJ Barrett 2) I Quickley 3) Quentin Grimes 4) Rokas Jokubaitis
SF: 1) Evan Fornier 2) Alec Burks 3) Kevin Knox 4) Wayne Seldon
PF: 1) Julius Randle 2) Obi Toppin 3) Taj Gibson 4) Reid Travis
C: 1) Mitch Robinson 2) Nerlens Noel 3) Jericho Sims 4) Justin Patton

That 2nd unit is tough but that 3rd unit can compete.

I’m coming away from summer league a little higher on both McBride and Grimes than I was, but am underwhelmed by Obi’s performance.

Realistically between his age and NBA experience he should be like Shaq out here, but he hasn’t dominated any game besides yesterday’s.

He’s a bit maddening to watch sometimes. It feels like he’s always overthinking what his move should be, and often coming to the wrong decision at that. A lot of attempted layups that should be dunks and vice-versa, ditto for putting the ball on the ground vs shooting, etc.

You get the impression there’s enough talent to work with but he won’t ever quite put it all together. Hope I’m wrong!

Bullock is more selective with his shots, and very efficient beyond the arc.

Grimes probably won’t have the same 3p%, but I think he’s going to put up a lot more attempts than Bullock ever did. You can see in SL how comfortable he is shooting with a hand in his face or against hard closeouts. Plus, Grimes looks much more comfortable shooting off screens and off the bounce.

Grimes adds a lot more than I thought he would, between his passing & rebounding, but his career is entirely dependent upon how many 3s he can hit while bombing away.

I think it’s pretty clear that, although Thibs and company want to develop their players, they are less interested in “projects” than other regimes. We don’t have to hang our hats on, “If player x develops skills a,b,c and d…” McBride and Grimes seem to be what they are ALREADY and that’s fairly polished basketball players ready to help a team. Pretty good for the middle third of the draft…

Looks like we have one more game on the schedule, Monday @ 7:00 PM vs. ATL…whoch would make us the only team to play 6 games before the “finals” which we will not be in. Honestly, I’d be fine of they stopped right now…we learned what we needed to learn and I would hate to see someone get injured.

I know it’s summer league but it’s pretty clear that McBride and Grimes will be useful players on this squad in whatever minutes they get this year. They showed up on both sides of the ball, not bad for picks 25 and 36.

Obi had some nice moves to the basket, he needs to work on finishing better. On a brighter note his 3 point shot looks improved.

This team is deep!

Happy birthday Jowles. Did you know that you were born 8 1/2 weeks into the Kenny Walker era in NY?

(Also, if McBride of Frankntilikinastein and Busta Grimes pan out, whatever we get for the 19th pick down the road is just gravy.)

Happy Belated Birthday Jowles

Much as I would have liked them to take a high-ceiling player with one of their picks, Grimes and McBride both seem like they’ll be useful on nights when the vets need to rest, or just in spot minutes. Grimes’ game has been compared to Bullock’s, but he’s also much more willing to create for himself and others, and more willing to just bomb away than Reggie was. If he can get comfortable with the NBA 3-point line, that’s someone any team could use.

I can understand the trade from a basketball standpoint,
but Turner’s contract is costly and between him and Noel you’re using 27M of cap space for the next two years on centers (barring another future trade involving one of them).

Aller will have some wizard work to do, according to Spotrac Turner’s cap hit is 18M, Mitch & Knox combined for 7.6M, while releasing Vildoza would put the total to 11M…

But if Brock can do it, I’m okay with the trade, it looks like re-signin Mitch will be pricey and not easy to do, using him as a trade piece could be a better use of assets.

Happy birthday THCJ first off…

I wouldn’t want to rush a Mitch trade. If it’s there now it will be there for the first half of the season.

I didn’t watch SL, except for the first game, but it’s very good to hear our rookies are doing OK. Obi still is an enigma, but with Frank out, we needed a player to fill in the role of “he might be good if develops this and that”.

Bite your tongue, Cyber! I still can’t quit Frank, and even I know that Obi at worst will be a rotation big in the league for a while. There are too many things he’s already clearly good at, whereas with Frank, even the defense was hypothetical a lot of the time. The mystery with Obi isn’t whether he can stick in the league, but whether he’ll live up to his draft status (and particularly to being taken over Hali).

I don’t usually read Daily Knicks posts, because a lot of it are pretty dumb takes, and the trade proposals are even worse. LOL
But today this article caught my attention, they are pissed about RJ missing the TheAthletic’s Top125, and frankly they are right this time.
https://dailyknicks.com/2021/08/14/ny-knicks-rj-barrett-the-athletic/

It’s refreshing to have a situation where guys on rookie deals actually have to develop to earn playing time and be considered part of the future. It creates a sense of urgency when you know that if you don’t improve and contribute to winning, you won’t play and aren’t long for the team. Think about how badly Obi wants to make it here in NY where his family lives. I can’t imagine that he isn’t putting 110% into improving. I’m betting that the other rooks, and IQ and RJ, are in the gym non-stop from now until training camp with a clarity of vision that they would have if we were still losing and had some scrub coach.

I love the balance we have between young players and veterans. We have a pretty good team and a lot of youthful upside. That’s exactly what you want. I don’t think we could be handling that aspect of team building any better than we are right now.

I wish Rokas Jokubaitis was going to hang around because I think he looked pretty good, but there’s a limit to how many young players we can have at then end of the bench when you are trying to compete for a playoff spot too.

Happy belated to THJC. Even though you are much younger, I feel like I have learned a lot about the game from you.

I think GoNY hit the depth chart nail on the head. RJ will probably have to take the tougher defensive assignment whether it be 2 or 3.

I also think Obi can play some 3, especially offensively. I don’t think he has a position that he can defend, but could be an effective offensive weapon at 3 or 4.

Didn’t Turner tear his achilles? I would need to see him play before feeling good about any trade. If he’s healthy then, I would reluctantly be ok with trading Mitch and whatever else for him.

I don’t see Obi as particularly mysterious. He’s a terrific athlete and plays with a ton of energy. Those attributes will get him some easy baskets. But he would do best on a team that runs a lot where he can get an extra transition basket here or there even at the NBA level.

He doesn’t have many other skills.

He’s not a plus defender. He’s not a plus shooter. He doesn’t handle the ball well or create efficiently off several dribbles. He’s a little out of control sometimes. He’s going to get better as he settles down and figures out what he should and should not do, but he’s going to have to add a skill or two be a “good” NBA player.

The thing is, he’s not a teenager that was drafted 2-3 years early and a project coming in. I’m not so sure how much more upside there can be, but adding a consistent 3 and settling down would help. He’s going to get minutes in NY because this management team drafted him with high hopes and they haven’t even tried to find a better backup PF. So hopefully he’ll use that opportunity.

I really want to see Mitch this season. He’s bulked up big time (gaining 30 lbs of muscle) and by the time training camp opens he should be 100%. I can’t help thinking what could have been with him in the playoffs. He’s such a difference maker. But a healthy Turner is quite tempting.

GoNyGoNYGo:
I really want to see Mitch this season. He’s bulked up big time (gaining 30 lbs of muscle) and by the time training camp opens he should be 100%.I can’t help thinking what could have been with him in the playoffs. He’s such a difference maker. But a healthy Turner is quite tempting.

Mitch hasn’t really lived up to the first year hype he generated. His flakiness probably rubs Thibs the wrong way. I’d hate to dump him, but Turner has 2 years left on a reasonable deal and Mitch is a UFA after this year so whatever they do is fine by me.

Thanks all for the kind words, about 2% of which were deserved.

geo:
happy b-day jowles 🙂
you got like a “traditional” birthday activity or meal that you partake in?

Since 2016 I have been having Sunday dinner with my wife’s sister’s family, and every year I pick a new kind of fried chicken to make. My favorite so far was the black sesame seed buttermilk biscuits with Korean fried chicken (kimchi liquid, gochugaru and gochujang in the wet brine, among other things) with a spicy kimchi coleslaw on top. Another big winner was double-fried Southern-style chicken and waffles. Lady J’s waffle game is top-notch, so it was just a winning combination. Butter and honey for days.

Last night we did a fancy restaurant here in town with all the (really odd) wine pairings (like, smoky Oregon wine? A Turkish semi-sweet dessert wine? the fuck?) on top of morning waffles, so I’m limiting myself to a pretzel-bagel bacon, egg and cream cheese until tonight’s buttermilk biscuits, double-fried chicken, garlicky slaw and some kind of peach/blackberry crisp that my sister-in-law, every bit the lady-mensch as Lady Jowles, plans to shove into my gullet.

Owen, I have been annoying the older guys in my tennis league by revealing my actual age. I think they’d prefer that I actually be the 23-year-old they assume I am, instead of the now-35-year-old who dices them up with superior conditioning. I read all the words — thanks everyone. And Early Bird, the answer is: for the worse.

Forget positions. Frank is not good at basketball. Otherwise, he’s fine.

I’ve seen enough guys substantially improve between 22-26 for me to discount this line of thinking.

I’m not sure what line of thinking your are discounting because I didn’t say he wasn’t going to develop. It’s a probability and extent thing.

I’ve been one of the strongest advocates of giving players more time to develop, but clearly you are more likely to improve if you come in as a raw, underweight, immature etc.. 19 year old with a strong worth ethic than if you come in as a mature 22 year old. That’s why all else being equal, teams prefer to draft younger.

Setting aside who is better or who is going to be better, when Knox came into the NBA his body literally looked like he was 16-17 years old. I have no idea where his ultimate top is, but I’m almost certain he’s not done getting stronger and developing further. Obi is going to get better too, but there’s a difference between Knox as a rookie and Obi as a rookie. A really stiff wind could still knock Knox over. lol . Obi is a year older and physically further along.

The problem with Knox is that he did get substantially better and was still one of the worst players in the league.

Hey Jowles, are you and Lady Jowles are entertaining the thought of having some little Jowles’s

As soon as we’re bored of having a ton of money, freedom and time to do whatever we want whenever we want

DudeInKnicksTown:
My birthday is this week, if anyone cares:)

I’ll be celebrating today because chemo falls out on the actual date.

Go Knicks!

Happy early birthday Dude!

DudeInKnicksTown:
My birthday is this week, if anyone cares:)

I’ll be celebrating today because chemo falls out on the actual date.

Go Knicks!

Man fuck off it’s not your day yet

Also I sincerely hope it’s nice and that treatment goes as well as it can

The Honorable Cock Jowles: Man fuck off it’s not your day yet

Also I sincerely hope it’s nice and that treatment goes as well as it can

Haha! Best birthday salutation ever.

Thanks to all.

Happy early birthday, Dude!

GoNyGoNYGo: I think he was living up to it when he got hurt. But his FA status is a factor and so is Miles Turner. I don’t think Turner is worth more than Mitch in a straight-up deal.

Maybe I’m alone in feeling that Mitch has been a huge disappointment compared to what I expected during his rookie year, but between his injuries, flakiness, expiring contract, and lack of offensive development, I’m pretty ambivalent about trading him in a fair value deal. All things equal, I’d rather keep him in the hope that he finally puts a 2000+ minute season together, but not expecting much change.

Knick fan not in NJ: I’m really curious how Mitch looks this season but I’m not sure I’d say no to the trade. I have a question for the Capologists out there. Since Mitch is our own draftee can’t we renegotiate and extend him even if it puts us over the cap? If we did that then he could be earning enough to make the math work in a Turner trade.

No, he wouldn’t. There’s a limit in the amount you can increase his previous salary, for him to be available in a extension-and-trade.
Here are the rules:

An extension-and-trade is allowed if
(i) the contract covers no more than 3 seasons (including any years remaining in the original contract),
(ii) the salary in the first year of the extended term is no more than 105% of the salary in the last year of the original term,
and (iii) the annual salary increases are no more than 5% of the salary in the first season covered by the extended term.

Jowles, even though your birthday is so yesterday, Happy Belated!

And Dude, all the very best. You rock.

Woj:

The Los Angeles Clippers are trading Patrick Beverley, Rajon Rondo and Daniel Oturu to the Memphis Grizzlies for guard Eric Bledsoe, sources tell ESPN.

The Honorable Cock Jowles: Man fuck off it’s not your day yet

Also I sincerely hope it’s nice and that treatment goes as well as it can

Haha! Best birthday salutation ever.

Thanks to all.

geo:
look dude, you’ve become “the” dude 🙂

how are you feeling?

I feel absolutely horrible for the first 3 days after treatment, then it improves to terrible for another week. It then goes to meh for for about 6 days, followed by excellent for the last 5 days. Then rinse and repeat. I’m in the 5 day excellent phase right now, so thanks!

Hubert:
I’m not gonna lie: I completely slept on Cam Thomas during the draft lead up and didn’t bother to form an opinion on him. He looks really damn good in summer league.

Cam Thomas was my choice as the 19th pick. ZMan is my witness.

I wouldn’t have minded Thomas with one of our picks. We got several other well-rounded prospects in Grimes and McBride (and maybe Rokas?), may as well have gone for a dude who could just get buckets.

Happy birthdays and tiny American flags for all!

Brian Cronin:
I hate when great teams get bailed out of their tax issues like the Grizzlies just did with the Clippers.

Is this all about the JJJ extension?

Z-man: Is this all about the JJJ extension?

I read that it gives the Grizzlies more flexibility to create cap space next summer if they want it.

Is this all about the JJJ extension?

I think it’s just about cap room period, but still, ugh. The Clippers now have a big trade exception, too!

I kinda like the creative capology, and am good with anything that makes teams in the WC more competitive with the Lakers.

This NBA season is gonna be a bloodbath. so may strong rotations leaguewide.

DudeInKnicksTown: Do we have a game on Monday or don’t we?

Yes. It’s Knicks vs. Hawks at 7:00 pm ET.

There was no other reason for him to play summer league. That may even be the real reason he backed out.

He got Covid man

I’m kind of excited to see McBride vs Cooper tonight. That could be a nice showcase for Deuce’s defensive prowess if they’re matched up.

Knox can shoot and he’s tall. I expect some other team to take a flier on him next season, and I wouldn’t be surprised if he eventually turns out to have a Novak-ian career where he’s usually on the outer edges of a rotation, but occasionally has seasons where he plays a ton and is effective in a deliberately limited role. But whatever the hell David Fizdale saw in that 3-on-3 scrimmage is never gonna materialize here in the NBA.

DudeInKnicksTown: I feel absolutely horrible for the first 3 days after treatment, then it improves to terrible for another week. It then goes to meh for for about 6 days, followed by excellent for the last 5 days. Then rinse and repeat. I’m in the 5 day excellent phase right now, so thanks!

Just get yourself better!

Happy (Belated) Birthday, Jowles!

Sorry, I’m late…sort of skimming through the threads these days while the Mets fade and the Jets gear up.

And yes, happy birthday to all the mugging Leos out there, since constant recognition is the only thing that pleases you anyway!

😉

And yes, happy birthday to all the mugging Leos out there, since constant recognition is the only thing that pleases you anyway!

Strengths: Creative, passionate, generous, warm-hearted, cheerful, humorous
Weaknesses: Arrogant, stubborn, self-centered, lazy, inflexible
Leo likes: Theater, taking holidays, being admired, expensive things, bright colors, fun with friends
Leo dislikes: Being ignored, facing difficult reality, not being treated like a king or queen

i had one of those birthday things a couple of weeks ago…birthdays and holidays – just another day…my general birthday wish, sit in the house by myself, eat pizza and have a soda…

yeah baby, let the good times roll…

You guessed it, geo. I’m from New York.

I’m from New York.

it’s funny, between being a leo (hubris galore) and being a new yorker (hubris galore – with an edge to it) it’s nearly impossible for us to be anything but open and honest 🙂

Trevor Ariza for Steve Francis, will always remember the press conference after that trade when I think it was Larry Brown talking about Marbury and Francis being the new Clyde and Pearl. Those were the days….

And what projects have the Knicks drafted and traded “before they were good”? Shumpert? Jordan Hill? Porzingis? That’s all the choices from the past 15 years.

Well, they did trade away THJ for Jerian Grant, and then paid him $71M to come back. And then he wasn’t any good, and got traded away again as a salary dump to “lessen” the blow of “losing” Porzingis. Haha, priceless. But that wasn’t Leon Rose, so I’m accepting it as the past.

By the end of his current contract, THJ will have been paid about $170M to play NBA basketball and he only will be 33 years old. Crazy.

Comedy of errors, for sure. But Hardaway wasn’t really a “project”. He played three years at a top college program and was 21.5 when he entered the league.

Mills had no idea how to negotiate and was constantly bidding against himself. Perry is guilty of loving his own mistakes. I don’t think either of them, together or alone, could ever get out of their own way. They didn’t go scorched earth like Isiah or pass along an unrecoverable disaster but it took less than a year for a novice like Leon to do more positive stuff than they did in their entire tenures.

IMO Hardaway is basically still the same player he always was. IMO he’s still significantly overpaid.

The major difference is that in NY he was the #2 option behind Porzingis. He was given the green light because they needed someone else to score. That was asking way too much. In Dallas they don’t ask him to create as much. He plays off Doncic, gets better looks, and they have him on a tighter leash unless he’s having one of his hot games. He’s still a 6th man masquerading as a 3rd option in Dallas. They made a mistake paying him that much.

For example, do you know how many recent lottery picks that were jettisoned by their first team went on to become rotation players of any significance in the NBA? It’s not that hard to look up. I’ll even list all of the choices from 2006-2016 for you:

I didn’t comment on any of the guys you listed. I commented on Knox and often still comment on Frank.

Knox was 19 going on 16 when he joined the Knicks. I didn’t like the pick (wanted Mikal), but that’s besides the point. The point I am making is that if you went to one Knicks game and saw him as a rookie you’d know it was going to take quite a few years for him to fill out, mature, and reach his peak. But again, most likely he’ll become a rotation player for another team because we’ll give up on him.

Frank was 19 going on 14 (lol) when we drafted him. But with him the problem was mostly maturity and horrible development. Aside from the fact that I think he’s underrated because people focus too much attention on boxscore stats and not enough on role, potential role, defense, and teammates, I still think he’ll be a very useful 3&D player someday when he grows up. lol But he’s already gone.

I’ve been guessing for a few months that our current project (Mitch) may be out the door next.

I’m even willing to throw KP into the conversation. He was a 7’3″ Knox. He was another obvious multi year project that everyone gave up on WAY before he was likely to reach his peak even if he never had any injuries.

With him, it always was and still is entirely about injury risk and his ability to get into and stay in top condition and play 36 productive minutes on both sides for enough games to be worth the money. It remains a risk, but he was a LOT better on offense last year and I suspect will come to camp in shape for the first time in a long time next season. We’ll see if the spit and glue holds him together.

the whole Fizdale fiasco paints the whole Mills tenure in a negative light… just like the thibs hire for rose probably gives him more credit than he deserves… but if you look at it.. it wasn’t that bad:

TH2 deal – probably an example of wrong player wrong time… since he kind of worked out for Dallas… if we were a better team where he was on a lesser role he probably would’ve been good.. just not on a bad team like ours with an expanded role…

KP trade – although right now it’s looking like just a salary cap dump since we evaporated one of the picks into the ether… but not having KP on a max deal alone was good… this may have been an example of KP making the decision for us but the deal was good although maybe it was possible to extract more in return….

Ron Baker – bad.. very bad

Melo trade – return was deece for what Melo was…. applauded then and in hindsight…

Wily trade – we actually got a good haul in hindsight when there was some controversy in trading him before he got play time… but seems like him and his brother haven’t improved on anything since making the association… the terrible part is that one of the picks we got was also evaporated last year so we didn’t actually get anything in return yet…

Fizdale – the only thing worse than this was also letting Keith Smart in any of our facilities….

the draft – Kevin Knox was quite possibly the worst draft pick we’ve made since Frederick Weis…. the Robinson pick almost makes up for it if you want to switcheroo the picks but considering the long line of starters following this pick it was just an egregious mistake… RJ was a great pick to make at the time and we are

Randle signing – at that stage in our win curve we should’ve been gambling on guys like this…. and we did.. and we got rewarded handsomely…

other signings – Bobby Portis and Morris proved to be key rotation pieces to contenders… Taj obv still had something left…

Strat, genuine question, let’s say Frank either doesn’t get an NBA contract at all, or gets a minimum deal and barely plays. It’s getting pretty hard to see any scenario other than those two.

What will you take away from that?

***But [Mills] did leave this team better than he found it.***

Back when this blog started, there were 7 year max contracts (Jamal Crawford) and a much smaller salary cap to work within. No contract is un-moveable anymore (Eddy Curry), and lottery protections are the rule rather than the exception. So it is now virtually impossible to screw a team long-term like Isiah did.

Phil Jackson and Steve Mills did a bad job of running the team. It took way too long to emerge from the mire. Competent management during their tenures would have had the team in a better place today than it is, and the fact that Leon Rose turned the team around in just a few months illustrates just how far a semi-reasonable plan can get you in the post 2011 NBA.

Jalen Johnson not playing is great news for people who don’t like to read complaints about the 19th overall pick.

Helluva start huh?

Just a ridiculous dunk by Jericho Sims!

Grimes’ confidence growing with every game.

And Sims with the dunk and the block on the other side.

It’s only the 1st quarter and we already have one “ackward Obi” highlight! ;D

IQ with a dumb turnover. He’s not a point guard.

Deuce can really shoot.

Goodnight.

Goodnight Cyber 🙂

IQ is 0-fer

Deuce is on fire

Grimes with a great pass to Obi

For what it’s worth, McBride has objectively been one of the best rookies in summer league.

DudeInKnicksTown:
Agree. I really like McBride as our 3rd point guard. He almost never turns the ball over, unlike Quickley.

20 yard completion, Quickly to Grimes over the middle.

Well this is becoming a summer league all timer

IQ: 0 for 9
Obi: 3 for 9
Grimes: 6 for 9
Deuce: 7 for 9

Deuce McBride with 19… he can really be a steal.

Quickley 0-9 (but 5 assists), he has shot really bad in this SL.

Grimes with 16 and a lot of good plays.

Sims is a grasshopper on steroid.

Another great pass from IQ to Grimes…

and the fact that Leon Rose turned the team around in just a few months illustrates just how far a semi-reasonable plan can get you in the post 2011 NBA.

or it shows that, you know, Mills actually got some good guys in here and was just a good coaching hire away from success.

I’m not saying Mills should’ve stayed. I’m glad he was fired for so many reasons. I just think his record of player and asset acquisition looks pretty good in hindsight.

Grimes lost an assist thanks to Simms (double “M”),

IQ is now 0-11 (0-9 from three)… we’ve seen this before…

IQ: 1 for 14. Shades of John Starks

Grimes can definitely shoot the 3.

I could watch Knicks Summer League all year long

A little Double M showing in this one

Quentin Grimes
is dropping Dimes
Every time
His game is prime.

IQ final line: 3-18. Thank god is summer league…

McBride can defend, can shoot and can pass too!
Grimes is already better than Bullock (I’m joking… but he’ll be in due time).
Aamir Simms is big.

Summer league hype!

Max: Kudos Barrettcuda!

i like to rhyme!

***or it shows that, you know, Mills actually got some good guys in here and was just a good coaching hire away from success.***

Sure, it does show that, if you want to be forgetful of process and historical context. He put a few long-ish term pieces on the roster. So did every other GM/President during that time. When Mills took over full duties from Jackson there were 4 teams with worse records than the Knicks: the Lakers, the Sixers, the Nets, and the Suns. Now, check the current betting lines for this upcoming season:

1. Nets
2. Lakers
5. Sixers
6. Suns
20. Knicks

To say that Steve Mills was just a coaching hire away from success really downplays how bad Mills was as a basketball executive. And it downplays the relative success of all of his peers during that time. Sure, he didn’t blow every decision he was presented with. Neither did Layden, Isiah, Walsh, Grunwald, and Jackson. But the net negatives so heavily outweigh the positives, that it’s hard to believe that somebody would revisit this with a straight hind-sighted face. (And that’s just focusing on his basketball related moves. Never mind the Dolan fluffing, the toxic work culture, and the sexual harassment lawsuit losing process that put the team in the mire in the first place, never to emerge from until he was finally and safely ushered out of the corporate office.)

Remember when people were criticizing our picks as “Thibs picks”?

If so, Thibs did fine.

Barrettcuda:
Am I the only one who sees a lot of Alan Houston in Grimes’ game?

When Grimes scores 50 pts in a game twice in the same season then we can compare them! Not criticizing your comparison just think Houston was always underrated by Knicks fans, Spree was always the more lauded and popular player but Houston was the much better player as a Knick who unfortunately by many will only be remembered for his final contract.

And Vildoza was just about flawless:)

Do we keep him with all of our new found guard depth?

I like that Grimes makes it a point to punish any defender that goes under the screen off him by squaring up and immediately shooting the J. That will do wonders for his game and will open so much underneath if he can continue to make defenders pay.

Sharif was in jail. Miles was his warden. Why is no one acknowledging this?

Please tell them they can’t keep Quinton Rose on the roster. The Sim(m)s brothers are bad enough…

Why on earth are you people talking about Steve Mills?

I give Perry credit for the contracts at the very least. Even if you want to give Mills credit for the signings they specifically stated that they brought Perry in to do the contracts. I suspect he had his hand in more than just the contracts though.

Grimes & Deuce both looked legit and then some

Sims looked excellent for a 58 pick, plus he can jump over Obi

Double M showed me enough to stay through preseason (but Thibs will probably run the starters 48 min anyway)

Mills was a fucking asshole who presided over the longest running clown show in the NBA’s 21st century. I give him zero credit for any of the success we are now enjoying because in the 5 seconds he had total control he made one of the dumbest bid against himself FA signings ever. Even after Perry got here he got everyone’s hopes up for a big FA score, totally whiffed, then gave a bunch of above-market deals to the likes of Portis, Ellington, and Payton. He got bailed out from overpaying Bullock by a neck injury and lucked into Marcus Morris. He drafted fucking Kevin Knox, the most unanimous projected bust in KB history.

I’m not crediting him for the Mitch pick as much as I blame other FOs from passing him over. RJ was a consensus #3 and he almost fucked that one up. And I have zero doubt that if he was still in charge, we would have some shitty-ass coach, would have blundered us into a late lottery team last season, and would have fucked up the pick. Maybe he would have dumped Julius for a couple of 2nds (like some folks here were begging for.)

I really don’t get it. We go from a grotesque circus picked to finish last by Vegas and most serious pundits, to a team that everyone is taking seriously in less than a year, and we want to credit the guy who is as responsible for the circus as anyone because he signed a promising player to a market-level deal, drafted a consensus #3 player at #3, and picked up a decent 2nd round pick after horrifically botching the lottery pick in the same draft.

Fuck Steve Mills.

i think you also forgot he traded kp too.. and the melo deal… and the hernangomez deal…. i summarized all the major deals in the thread up…

all the other stuff i don’t think there’s any question he shouldn’t have gotten the job and he should’ve been fired long before anything else… bad management is bad management… and good process doesn’t end up with kevin knox even if he did work out… and good process doesn’t end up with ron baker … and even the th2 deal took a lot of gamble to see if he would work out at that price… which is why making trades as bad as the 19th and 33rd picks are canaries..

but it takes a lot of mental gymnastics to not credit him for all the positive that came out of his tenure and kind of lay all the credit at rose’s feet since he inherited basically all of the heavy lifters … it’s ok to have a hate boner for people but i think a less emotional response can recognize the good and bad without having to entangle the two… i can recognize that the kemba deal was good.. fournier was okish.. even tho i hated every other move he’s made…

i think we all recognize that isaiah thomas drafted pretty well … or is everything just bad with him too? is grunwald’s tenure in the shitter just because of bargnani? does it always have to be all bad or all good?

for me i don’t think so and i think most people agree or else we wouldn’t be talking about the KP.. melo.. and randle deal.. the RJ and Mitch picks in such glowing terms…. it’s just we all conveniently leave out the fact that it all happened under the guy we all universally hate… and nobody is under any obligation to give him credit for anything but objectively speaking… all that happened under his watch…

and you can’t be results oriented if you dont’ recognize those results….

It should be noted that Steve Mills complied the NBA’s worst record over his most recent 3 year stint as POBO.

To give credit for the underperformance of his roster, which Rose properly utilized, is faint praise.

Donnie Walsh:
***i think we all recognize that isaiah thomas drafted pretty well … or is everything just bad with him too? is grunwald’s tenure in the shitter just because of bargnani? does it always have to be all bad or all good?***

I said the negative vastly outweighs the good, which it does for Mills. And I said he didn’t blow every decision he was presented with and neither did Layden, Isiah, Walsh, Grunwald, and Jackson. Both of which you quoted, so I don’t know why you’d accuse me of not recognizing that any of them did good things. (Who are you even directing your comments to, if not the person you blockquote with the exact quote you are accusing them of not making??)

Look, Isiah gave Walsh/Grunwald some decent pieces to work with: David Lee, Nate Robinson, Wilson Chandler, Marbury, the #6 draft pick… most of those were used to put a 54 win team in place. Does that mean he was a net positive? No, he wasn’t. A different exec could have put a championship team together during that span. Instead, the team was a disaster. (And Isiah’s doctrine, though poorly executed, was an actual plan that could have achieved a great outcome if done properly. Mills didn’t even have a tangible plan other than “don’t get fired by Dolan”.)

Donnie, don’t feed the troll

Donnie, don’t feed the troll

that is so fucking rich coming from you… the biggest fucking snowflake in the world that hijacks entire days worth of threads and make people leave the blog because you can’t handle their phrasing or you can’t handle criticism of the FO…

that guy is calling someone else a troll… the guy that needed a dozen people to call him out yet doesn’t have the self awareness to admit to anything is trying to get others in on this immature game with him…

if people think i should fuck off for having this opinion… i will gladly leave forever as long as people show me where i’m arguing in bad faith… in fact i think it’s others who are badly misinterpreting what i’m saying and to those i would say that they should reread….

otherwise attack my argument and dont’ attack me… that shouldn’t be a tough thing to do yet here we are… enduring the behavior of a child who lashes out the second they run out of rope in an argument… this is all just so cliche…

just sayin’

yes, best never to allow me to directly display gifs on this site…you wanna see trolling 😛

I watched more SL basketball than suggested for sane people,
between rookies, UDFA and sophomores a lot of talent on display,
the games were better than I remember from two years ago.

Summer League is more useful to identify players that “can’t do it”,
but Deuce and Grimes look like rotation players that can help us win a couple of games during long winter nights in Detroit, Cleveland or Orlando…
They both showed more defensive chops than IQ and Obi and that alone can endear them to Thibs, they’re willing passers and can create for themselves (McBride more than Grimes).

I’m eager to watch pre-season games, this team is deeeeeep (this doesn’t mean we’re going to win 50 games, maybe not even 45, but there’s the potential to watch some fun basketball).

Some bits about yesterday:

Summer League – It went very well, right? The rooks look for real, they won’t be stars, which we already knew, but they look like they can develop to be good rotation players. IQ and Obi were ok for the expectation. I think IQ’s shooting won’t be a problem, he was trying to be a PG and the shooting didn’t flow as we’re used to expect from him. Obi looks to be developing, but we gotta see him against real NBA competition in the preseason to be sure. On the negative side, Vildoza didn’t look good and then got injured, the time is running against him, he better show something in preseason, or else he’s out.

Mills hype train – I can’t believe just because some things you do pan out, people praise such a bad executive. The Timberwolves FO has KAT and Edwards, are they good? Leon probably would just keep those 2 and revamp the rest, should the previous guy be praised?

Wonder boy executive start – It’s all going great, from our POV of course, because overpaying for intangibles is one of the worst things you can do. The other teams don’t value it, and you find yourself with an albatross contract the moment you sign it. Now their only hope is that Smart doesn’t decline or get injured, because that contract is immovable.

The fun bit –
Barrettcuda with the good rhymes
Just like McBride on defense
A notch below is Grimes
‘Cause he needs more offense

If you’re into all the Kremlinology of MSG, this is an interesting one from Berman of the Post, singing the praises of the team’s recently-added second Europe-based scout, and using the drafting of Rokas as evidence that it’s already paying dividends.

I had no real beef with Rokas’ summer league play, especially in his last game. And it seems perfectly reasonable that after another year or two of seasoning in Barcelona, he could come over here and be a useful rotation player. But the article is treating him like a home run pick, in a way suggesting Berman is carrying water for either this new scout or someone in the front office who wants the hire to look good.

On a scale of summer Knicks things, I rate this much less interesting than the Deuce/Grimes backcourt, and much more interesting than a historical reassessment of Steve Mills.

it’s a bit reductive to say that I’m praising mills… I’ve also included all the bad… some good things did happen under him and it’s not like we don’t already do that… randle .. the kp deals and the rj pick are already universally loved by now… were they all bad or something? there’s no reassessment happening… these were all good things we all already agree on…

but just because mills is mentioned it’s like it didn’t happen and it was like someone else did it… it’s not like mills was the brains behind all those moves but it did happen… like we can talk about the picks thomas made and credit him for those and still acknowledge it was a failed tenure and the guy was an idiot…

I honestly don’t think that’s a big statement but I think ppl are stuck on painting everything with the same brush… which I can understand but I try to avoid even if it is an unpopular opinion…

Mills gooooood. Leon baaaaaad. The End

is this the part where you blame other people for you calling them names because they happened to trigger you? because that was a fun ride that we should all get on again….

At some point it becomes tiresome reddit-level bs. And sadly, it looks like it will continue indefinitely.

i think trying this slick move as painting everything you disagree with as this extreme viewpoint is the tired part…

that’s a trollish move if i’d ever seen one… especially when you’re stuck attacking the poster instead of the argument.. yet again…

Jury is still out on Rose. It has been since he arrived here. But arrows are pointing up at the moment.

And I thought our FO undervalued picks

It seems one of the 2nd rounders is top-55 protected and unlikely to convey. But well, it is nice to get a 2nd rounder.

https://twitter.com/AdamHimmelsbach/status/1427641773392859148

it’s really just one below average second rounder

Injuries will almost certainly create opportunities for both Grimes and Deuce, but ideally the team should build in rest days for both Kemba and DRose, which would allow one or both of the rookies to periodically get minutes. It’s just a question of whether a minutes maniac like Thibs would consider an actual load management plan for these guys — or perhaps whether Leon Rose (whom Thibs trusts and would take orders from) would be willing to mandate such a plan.

The Jarret Culver era is over in Minnesota

Raven, Grimes’ high school pedigree has me at least vaguely wondering if there might be more to unlock from him than just a potential high-level role player type. That said, there are lots of top high schoolers who struggle as one-and-dones, get drafted anyway because of said pedigree in the hopes their brief college career was an aberration, and then don’t improve in the pros. That Grimes stayed at that level and remade his game means he’s not likely to be a bust, but it may be that the more ball-dominant game that Kansas’ recruiters saw was a mirage, and the Houston guy is just who he is.

Hubert: Kevin Durant was the last of the mohicans

Are you talking about the summer that also saw Kyrie, Kawhi, Kemba and Jimmy go to a new team in free agency?