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Monday, August 19, 2019

Knicks Morning News (2019.07.22)

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  • [SNY Knicks] Here’s how the Knicks can get the entire roster solid minutes
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  • [SNY Knicks] A look at RJ Barrett’s strengths and weaknesses heading into rookie season with Knicks
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    146 comments on “Knicks Morning News (2019.07.22)

    1. Zippy Le Pin

      Something to note is Gibson and Ellington get no minutes in this scenario. It’s nearly impossible to construct this roster in a way that gets everybody a couple of stretches a game.

      Yup.

    2. Ingmarrrr

      Funny math on Vertsberger‘s minutes allocation. I guess he’s assuming double OT most games.

    3. Bruno Almeida

      Ellington is going to get minutes for sure, and Gibson will play the Lance Thomas role that we know Fizdale values. My bet is that Dotson and Frank will be left out of the rotations at least to begin the season.

      They’ll probably play Payton, DSJ, Barrett, Ellington, Trier, Knox, Morris, Portis, Gibson, Randle, Mitch the majority of the minutes in some combination, then have Bullock play spot minutes when he comes back and Iggy, Dotson, Kadeem and Frank come in whenever there’s injuries, but they all should spend time in the G-League when everyone is healthy.

    4. Knew Your Nicks

      5players x 48min = 240min
      256min – 240min = 16min
      Looks like some will play 3on3 during halftime right next to the amazing Sladek and Red Panda !

    5. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      Yesterday somebody asked me who were the top point guards in this year’s draft. The top guy to look at, IMO, is Cole Anthony. He’s Greg Anthony’s son, from New York (I’m sorry but I’m a sucker for New York natives), and is playing his basketball at UNC this year. He’s really more of an attacking point guard than the distributing type, and you never really know about a guy’s jumper until they get to the college level (and even then it’s hard to tell; Dennis Smith Jr shot a hair under 36% from 3 in college on 5 attempts a night). He has the handle and the athleticism you want out of your lead guard, and he should be a top 5 pick in this draft. Other than him, you have the French kids who look interesting and Anthony Edwards who is going to Georgia this fall. He’s really more of a 2 guard, but you could play him at the 1 next to RJ Barrett and have a complementary back court. I tend to think that in today’s NBA it’s better to have a taller and stronger guy be your QB because he can just see and make passes a smaller guy can’t, while the smaller quicker guy can get passed guys and draw more fouls. RJ Hampton is an interesting guy, and there also LaMelo Ball.

      So in short, we’re looking at Cole Anthony, Anthony Edwards, Theo Maledon, RJ Hampton, and LaMelo Ball.

    6. Sly Wi-yums

      It’s going to be a long 3 months until we finally get to see what the Knicks actually look like. I’m disappointed we didn’t get KD, but that ship sailed the moment he pulled up lame in the finals. The quick fix strategy was dead before free agency began. Instead, the FO pivoted, showed some restraint and didn’t mortgage cap . Whether folks here at KB agree or disagree with it, at least there is an apparent strategy the FO is following. That in itself is something I haven’t seen for at least a generation.

      The Knicks don’t have a core yet – the hope is some of the youngsters develop out of this “primordial soup” of a roster into something to build around. For the first time in a long time I look forward to watching it unfold. Side note: Mudiay might have been the worst player I’ve ever watched play. never has anyone been so ball dominant and clueless at the same time. Adios.

      Speaking of rookie strategy, I heard a pundit mention the last Knicks rookie contract to go full term for the Knicks was Charlie Ward. 25 years of draft misery, 23 if you don’t count the last two. Its about time we got some decent rookies and committed to them.

      Can’t wait.

    7. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Speaking of rookie strategy, I heard a pundit mention the last Knicks rookie contract to go full term for the Knicks was Charlie Ward. 25 years of draft misery, 23 if you don’t count the last two. Its about time we got some decent rookies and committed to them.

      The last Knicks’ draftee to be extended. He’s a bit of a rallying cry for the “this franchise is constitutionally unable to be good” crowd.

    8. alsep73

      He’s Greg Anthony’s son

      Obviously, sons are not their fathers (Steph Curry is way better than Dell was, Hubert Davis wasn’t as good as Walter), but I feel like I’d have a whole lot of new Knicks PTSD if we drafted Greg Anthony’s kid. He was the first first rounder from when I started following the team, and thus the first of many, many flawed Knicks prospects whom every year we were assured could be great if he could just fix this or that flaw in his game. Good defender, never much of a playmaker.

    9. DS

      Hubert Davis wasn’t as good as Walter

      That’s his uncle, you infidel. ;)

      I also started following the team 1991-1992 and have similar feelings.

    10. thenoblefacehumper

      I think there’s enough mediocrity on the roster lying around to get to 30 wins, but if Knox and/or Ntilikina get major minutes and continue to be literally the worst two players in the league our total will likely be lower. It’s also hard to imagine RJ being a positive contributor, so there will be a lot of minutes going to very bad players (which is fine).

      I’ll go with 25 wins for now. It’s definitely a high variance situation, as improvement from Mitch/DSJ/Trier/Knox could put us in the mid 30s range. I think some people are overestimating the likelihood that they all improve, though.

      All we can really hope for is that the few wins we do get are fueled by guys we should actually give a shit about, not Taj Gibson getting an efficient 16-10 or Bobby Portis getting hot from 3 or Marcus Morris hitting mid-range shots at a standard deviation above his average. I don’t mean to be a broken record but it’s really quite baffling that we signed all of these guys…

    11. alsep73

      That’s his uncle, you infidel. ;)

      Goddammit! That’s a very bad job by me. Okay, then swap out Hubert and Walter for Danny and Dolph Schayes. The point still stands: some sons are much better than their fathers, some are much worse.

    12. djphan

      the two biggest risks are knox getting major minutes and mitch not getting enough… aside from that i think we’re fairly comfortable sitting in the 33-35 win range…. or roughly about what charlotte was last year…

      there’s a lot of young guys and a few of them… namely randle.. payton and dsj are at a point where you can expect some sort of leap in performance… it doesn’t happen all the time but i think it’s safe to assume one of those guys improves dramatically… and there are some other candidates also…

      good young teams will generally overperform…. we’re not a great young team but we do have good young players….

    13. DS

      Goddammit! That’s a very bad job by me. Okay, then swap out Hubert and Walter for Danny and Dolph Schayes. The point still stands: some sons are much better than their fathers, some are much worse.

      Right. On the one hand, you have the advantage of being given the genes of and being taught the game by an NBA player. On the other hand, in order to be better than your father, you have to be better than an NBA player.

    14. Stratomatic: Management consists of talent evaluation, fitting pieces together coherently, & contract/valuation level decisions. The Knicks are bad at all three.

      Portis is more or less the inverse of Vonleh.

      Portis is young, can rebound, can shoot from 3, score in a variety of ways, and is getting better. What he can’t do is defend.

      Vonleh is young, can rebound, handle, switch and defend, and is getting better. What he can’t do is hit the 3 pointer consistently or score in a variety of ways.

      Which one do you think is making 15.5m?

      Which one do you think is making 2m?

      Which one do you think our management is preferred?

      This is coming from a guy that thinks Portis might still turn out be a very good player given his supposedly super intense work ethic and the fact that he appears to be a pretty bright guy.

    15. thenoblefacehumper

      I love Silverman’s work in general (taking on the Barstool crowd requires some serious gumption) and the article was probably worth writing, but it does kinda feel like low-hanging fruit to go after a largely apolitical religious guy from a country brutalized by colonialism.

      Palestinians have much bigger enemies than Mariano Rivera, and I think as far as US politics is concerned he’s just a “respect the office” type (IIRC he met with Obama a few times too).

      Perhaps you can make the argument that millions of dollars later someone like Mo has a responsibility to enlighten himself compared to when he was a broke teenage fisherman in Panama. I guess that’s probably true. It’s just a little hard for me to get excited about when there are so many people with far more privileged backgrounds, far more power, and far more ghoulish worldviews.

    16. Jack Bauer

      Lamelo Ball??!? Talk about PTSD

      I’d say avoid that overrated circus.

      Silverman making a huge stretch for his his idiotic opinions being presented as facts. Throwing Mariano Rivera under the bus for some made up “offense” is way off base.

    17. DRed

      Bobby Portis can score in a variety of ways, sure, but what he can’t do is score efficiently. He sucks on offense and defense.

    18. cgreene

      Not a fan of the Silverman takedown piece on Mo. Weak sauce. Short on facts and long on conjecture on what Rivera’s motivations are.

    19. Stratomatic: Management consists of talent evaluation, fitting pieces together coherently, & contract/valuation level decisions. The Knicks are bad at all three.

      Bobby Portis can score in a variety of ways, sure, but what he can’t do is score efficiently.

      His efficiency was ball park average the previous 2 years. Sometimes the defense wins the possession and someone other than the ideal player shooting the ideal shot is the only option. I’d rather have Portis than Vonleh shooting that shot.

    20. thenoblefacehumper

      I think the Portis signing was probably the single stupidest Knicks signing in an offseason full of stupid Knicks signings, but I ain’t shedding tears over Noah Vonleh. Guys like him, including players better than him, are getting signed for tiny AAV figures every offseason these days.

      He was an interesting player when it looked like he could shoot well from 3 and thus get in the 60 TS% range, but that seems to have been a mirage.

    21. DS

      The last Knicks’ draftee to be extended. He’s a bit of a rallying cry for the “this franchise is constitutionally unable to be good” crowd.

      I’d count David Lee and Nate even though they were one-year extensions and they played mostly during the dismal Isiah years.

    22. Stratomatic: Management consists of talent evaluation, fitting pieces together coherently, & contract/valuation level decisions. The Knicks are bad at all three.

      The Christian stuff is borderline bigoted even though it’s true that some small percentage of Evangelicals have very non mainstream beliefs about the Bible and Jesus coming again.

      A lot of people on this planet believe a lot of things I think are wrong. In some cases I think they are intrinsically immoral or borderline evil. But I respect their right to believe those things and support and vote for the candidates of their choice while we discuss, debate and try to convince each other why our own positions would make the world a better place.

    23. Stratomatic: Management consists of talent evaluation, fitting pieces together coherently, & contract/valuation level decisions. The Knicks are bad at all three.

      I think the Portis signing was probably the single stupidest Knicks signing in an offseason full of stupid Knicks signings, but I ain’t shedding tears over Noah Vonleh. Guys like him, including players better than him, are getting signed for tiny AAV figures every offseason these days.

      It was a great lesson in what they value and what they don’t value and how much they are willing to pay for what they value compared to what they don’t value (or quite frankly what they don’t understand the value of).

    24. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      The Christian stuff is borderline bigoted even though it’s true that some small percentage of Evangelicals have very non mainstream beliefs about the Bible and Jesus coming again.

      Pew Research:

      25% of Christians are Evangelicals
      64% of Evangelicals oppose same-sex marriage
      55% believe homosexuality should be discouraged
      56% believe aid to the poor (lol) does more harm (lol) than good (lol)
      82% disbelieve evolution
      82% believe in hell (and that you’re going there for not being part of their club, you heathen)
      55% believe that the Bible is the Word of God and should be taken literally (and that you are a sinner for not believing the Word of God, and therefore are going to hell)
      50% believe in moral absolutism, so either agree with all of the above or go to hell, sinner
      60% believe that religion is the guide to morality (i.e. not philosophy, reason, common sense, or [lol, 3%] science

      No, please… don’t call the bigots and science-deniers what they are! All opinions matter! All opinions are the same! Everyone is allowed to do whatever they want!

      A lot of people on this planet believe a lot of things I think are wrong

      Yeah, bro. That’s the basis for you being on this site. That you believe something, evidence be damned.

      In some cases I think they are intrinsically immoral or borderline evil. But I respect their right to believe those things and support and vote for the candidates of their choice while we discuss, debate and try to convince each other why our own positions would make the world a better place.

      You do know that Christian Sharia would not be open to public/democratic debate, right? You realize that a majority of Evangelicals want Christian autocracy, right? Because that’s the express basis of Christianity — a supreme leader with a rigid stratification of priests and administrators, right?

    25. Dink

      Don’t want to start a political thread, but I will say Silverman is a brave guy for writing that piece. Athletes get criticized all the time for even the most tepid pro-Palestine messages (ex. Amare Stoudemire’s “pray for palestine’ IG post). Shouldn’t be surprising when there’s push back in the opposite direction.

    26. Jack Bauer

      You do know that Christian Sharia would not be open to public/democratic debate, right? You realize that a majority of Evangelicals want Christian autocracy, right? Because that’s the express basis of Christianity — a supreme leader with a rigid stratification of priests and administrators, right?

      You realize that if you Replace the Christian references to Islam and you would be called out as being Islamophobic, right?

    27. ess-dog

      These signings, especially Portis, are just so confusing, even if they do pan out.

      Portis has a FULL team option in his 2nd year. How good will he have to become to merit that?!?

      Reality says that he won’t live up to that and will be gone after a year — so why sign him for that money in the first place? But let’s say he does become AWESOME: he’s hitting 3s at a 42% clip, boarding all over the place, and swatting almost as many shots as Mitch… then what?

      We already have Mitch on a friendly contract and have Randle through that year… I suppose if Randle and Portis are both amazing, we can trade one at the deadline for assets or just overpay for our 3rd big.

      I even sort of liked the idea of a reasonable gamble on Portis, but this contract just makes no sense… and then to sign Morris after that?!?

    28. Bruno Almeida

      @28

      No, you would be rightfully called a islamophobic if you think every person connected to islam is the same and thinks and acts like that, which is not the same as saying a majority of those Christians want an autocracy.

    29. Dough Chew

      I also think Silverman showed guts in doing the Mariano piece. I think it’s good to have a critique out there of how Mo’s religious beliefs influence his political involvements. At the same time, I don’t think it’s Silverman’s best work, and I don’t think it’s good religion reporting. Under-informed religion journalism is a common problem, so I don’t want to fault Silverman personally for it.

    30. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      You realize that if you Replace the Christian references to Islam and you would be called out as being Islamophobic, right?

      Are we talking about Islam or Islamism? They, like Christianity and Evangelical Christianity, are not the same thing.

    31. JK47

      Manny Pacquiao just won a big fight the other night and everybody is all fawning about how great Manny Pacquiao is, ignoring the fact that Manny Pacquiao is a giant bigoted homophobic asshole.

      I hope Manny sticks around long enough to fight Errol Spence so I can enjoy watching him get his ass kicked.

    32. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Raise your hand if you’d want to pay Bradley Beal and John Wall a combined $84M in 2022-23.

    33. domiknick

      Manny Pacquiao just won a big fight the other night and everybody is all fawning about how great Manny Pacquiao is, ignoring the fact that Manny Pacquiao is a giant bigoted homophobic asshole.

      As a Filipino-American I feel targeted by this post.

      Just kidding. You could write a post about Filipino Knicks fans born in New York, currently living in San Diego, between the ages of 36 and 38 and I still wouldn’t feel targeted. That said, it is rough having this be the main (only?) mega successful mainstream Filipino athlete of my adult life. There’s Donaire too but obviously he hasn’t reached anywhere near the level that Manny has. As amazing as his accomplishments in the ring have been over the years his “off the field” stuff…sucks.

    34. Ntilakilla

      Don’t want to start a political thread, but I will say Silverman is a brave guy for writing that piece. Athletes get criticized all the time for even the most tepid pro-Palestine messages (ex. Amare Stoudemire’s “pray for palestine’ IG post). Shouldn’t be surprising when there’s push back in the opposite direction.

      THIS. I don’t see going after Mariano as low-hanging fruit at all. He’s arguably the most universally revered NYC athlete alive today and is fresh from being enshrined as a HOF legend. At a time when even politicians in Congress are being verbally attacked by our own president for daring to criticize Israel’s apartheid style occupation in Gaza and the West Bank, it’s clear that anyone who does the same is taking a risk of being accused of a litany of slanderous attacks like-antisemitism or anti-Americanism by those in the highest rungs of power, especially when targeting a beloved sports icon.

    35. danvt

      I don’t think it’s that easy to characterize Evangelicals. Jowles cited a survey, I guess. I’m sure it’s reputable and I’d like to see it. Still and all, these are answers to specifically worded questions and I think the vast majority of people are not so fundamentalist in these ways.

      I would think the amount of people in this country that want a religious autocracy would be less than 1%

      Not that people couldn’t be fooled into getting one necessarily…

    36. Ntilakilla

      I would think the amount of people in this country that want a religious autocracy would be less than 1%

      The state of Alabama overwhelmingly voted 72 to 28 percent in favor of a resolution to post the Ten Commandments on public property, including public schools, this past November. I legitimately believe a commitment to secular constitutionalism on the federal level is the one thing holding back major sections of this country into instituting some form of Christian theocratic government.

    37. Bruno Almeida

      I live in a country where we just elected a guy who has his biggest support coming from evangelicals who would definitely want some form of theocracy to be in place, and are actively working towards it by targeting LGBT, women’s and specially African religions. You guys might think the USA is so far removed from all of this, but we also thought that was true of Brazil like 4 years ago.

    38. Ntilakilla

      Manny Pacquiao just won a big fight the other night and everybody is all fawning about how great Manny Pacquiao is, ignoring the fact that Manny Pacquiao is a giant bigoted homophobic asshole.

      Who prominently supports Duterte’s purge of drug abusers in the Philippines as part of God’s design despite having a well-documented history of drug abuse himself. One would think as a born-again Christian, Pacquiao would support a more New Testament Gospel of forgiveness and rehabilitation towards drug abuse instead of Old Testament style on-site execution. But, alas, he does not. So now we can also add hypocrisy and protofascism on top of homophobia and assholery to his list of offenses.

    39. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Per ISPU, 17% of polled White Evangelical Protestants think their religion — which is a radical, fundamentalist form of Christianity — should be the main source of American law.

      There are approximately 240 million Christians in the U.S., and a quarter of them are White Evangelical. That’s 60,000,000 WECs, which means about 10 million people believe in a strong Christian theocracy with the Bible as the basis of law. Another 30 million of those Evangelicals believe that the Bible should be a significant influence on American law.

    40. thenoblefacehumper

      THIS. I don’t see going after Mariano as low-hanging fruit at all.

      To be clear, I completely agree that the views/associations of Mariano’s that Silverman pointed out are heinous. As a Jew, I find the evangelical obsession with Israel as creepy as it is malevolent. I even agree that it’s perfectly noteworthy and fair game to point out said views/associations. Mariano Rivera is a multi-millionaire who doesn’t need an ardent defense from critiques in online publications.

      I suppose the piece came off as incomplete to me for a few reasons. It lacked any acknowledgment of the European project of intentionally pushing reactionary religious views in colonial subject countries, and then the modern-day project by evangelicals in the US to essentially do an updated version of the same thing via missionaries. I think you’d find that Mariano’s views are somewhat common in Panama (this is admittedly complete conjecture on my part based on a small amount of research), but I’d consider it low-hanging fruit to use that to make some kind of larger point without such an acknowledgment. Mariano Rivera is a single Panamanian guy who clearly has been subjected to a particular kind of religious upbringing from a young age. I guess my point is that it’s a little bizarre to lambast him for that without saying where a lot of those views came from (largely colonial powers at different times but with many of the same exploitative goals).

      I also don’t believe it mentioned that Mariano stopped all formal education at age 16 to begin a life completely dominated by baseball. I would imagine that continues to have an impact on his worldview. I don’t think Silverman would feel the same way about everything if he stopped his education at 16. I know I sure as hell wouldn’t.

    41. Ntilakilla

      I live in a country where we just elected a guy who has his biggest support coming from evangelicals who would definitely want some form of theocracy to be in place, and are actively working towards it by targeting LGBT, women’s and specially African religions. You guys might think the USA is so far removed from all of this, but we also thought that was true of Brazil like 4 years ago.

      And the Dilma Rousseff government was far more far-left leaning back in 2015 than Obama’s in a country where a larger, and therefore more representative, portion of citizenry votes.

    42. Ntilakilla

      It lacked any acknowledgment of the European project of intentionally pushing reactionary religious views in colonial subject countries, and then the modern-day project by evangelicals in the US to essentially do an updated version of the same thing via missionaries. I

      This is an interesting theory, but Mariano converted from Catholicism to Pentecostalism at around 21 to 22 years of age after he made the journey to the U.S. By his own admission, neither he nor his parents were avid churchgoers before then, and it was actually he who in turn converted them to the evangelical faith. I suppose you could attribute his conversion to a host of influences dating back to a legacy of colonialism in Panama, including the baseball prospect pipeline, but I don’t think evangelical proselytizing in a U.S. colonial outpost had much to directly do with it.

    43. thenoblefacehumper

      @47 perfectly valid rejoinder, but I don’t know how you can say definitively that growing up broke in a country with very high religiosity, and stopping all education at the age of 16, didn’t have a sizable impact.

      The truth is we’ll never really know, but I expect better of Silverman than to leave those factors completely ignored. If one had no prior knowledge of Mariano Rivera and read that article, they could be forgiven for thinking he was born in Chappaqua or something.

      Silverman is still a legend in my eyes but we’ve all done some work that could’ve been a lot better at some point, and I think this fits into that category for him.

    44. Z-man

      I never cared all that much for Robert’s writing style. As to his piece on Mariano, it seems to say more about him and his views than it says about Mariano. It read to me as a hit piece based largely on his associations with right wingers in Israel and on his Christian faith.

      Frankly, I don’t give a shit about Rivera’s political or religious views or associations, and don’t think there is any reason to use them to tarnish the purity of his enshrinement into the Baseball Hall of Fame. As athletes who are bad people go, he’s pretty damn far from the top of the list. All Halls of Fame are full of assholes…and what constitutes being an asshole is highly subjective in most cases.

      As a Yankee hater, I still can step back and marvel at his greatness as a pitcher. As with many celebrities, I don’t share his views on lots of topics of great importance, as I don’t with many artists, athletes and other celebrities. They should not be put on pedestals outside of their creative product.

      I would have been more appreciative of a piece that spoke of star athletes in general in the context of a given issue, and how fans are either ignorant of, or turn a blind eye to, their personal actions or views. To single out Mariano in this way just because he is perceived as a good, perhaps even righteous man by so many comes across to me as petty and self-serving. He doesn’t strike me as a moralizing publicity hound with ulterior motivations and a sordid underbelly, like say Tiger Woods or Bill Cosby.

      If a fan chooses to glorify an athlete beyond his athletic accomplishments, that’s on the fan, not the athlete.

    45. Ntilakilla

      but I don’t know how you can say definitively that growing up broke in a country with very high religiosity, and stopping all education at the age of 16, didn’t have a sizable impact.

      This leads to a very slippery slope though. By extension of this logic we can provide an excuse to cover for a lot of very retrograde beliefs and behavior around the world from Klansmen born in the poorest regions of the Mississippi Delta to Islamic jihadists in Afghanistan.

    46. Ntilakilla

      He doesn’t strike me as a moralizing publicity hound with ulterior motivations and a sordid underbelly, like say Tiger Woods or Bill Cosby.

      If Mo said some of things which were attributed to him in that article then any decent and knowledgeable human being should have an issue with his views. Hell, even being seen fundraising with Donald Trump is problematic to me considering where Mariano comes from and what the president thinks about such countries.

    47. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Frankly, I don’t give a shit about Rivera’s political or religious views or associations

      His political and religious views are only of note because of the high degree of celebrity and wealth he accrued as a result of that Hall-worthy career.

      He is now using his prestige to influence people and institutions. His views are no longer irrelevant so long as he remains a public figure, fundraising for the likes of Donald J. Trump, Jr. and the America First PAC.

      You can’t separate the baseball from the man, because baseball is the reason we are paying attention to the man today.

    48. thenoblefacehumper

      This leads to a very slippery slope though. By extension of this logic we can provide an excuse to cover for a lot of very retrograde beliefs and behavior around the world from Klansmen born in the poorest regions of the Mississippi Delta to Islamic jihadists in Afghanistan.

      One of the very first things I said on the matter was that Mariano Rivera, who is now a multi-millionaire and celebrity, has agency and responsibility. I’m not looking to “provide an excuse to cover” for any of his beliefs or actions.

      Now, do I think context is important in telling the story of just about anyone? Yeah, I do. Maybe there are certain actions and/or belief systems that are so awful that any amount of context just looks like an excuse, and Klansmen and Jihadists would fall into that category if we grant that it exists (personally I still think context is always useful as long as you’re capable of grappling with nuance–people can be irredeemable trash with the factors that lead them to their awfulness still serving as useful information). Taking some pictures with IDF dipshits and Donald Trump’s failsons in between autograph signings doesn’t meet that standard for me personally, though.

    49. Z-man

      His political and religious views are only of note because of the high degree of celebrity and wealth he accrued as a result of that Hall-worthy career.

      He is using his prestige to influence people and institutions. His views are no longer irrelevant so long as he remains a public figure, fundraising for the likes of Donald J. Trump, Jr. and the America First PAC.

      If Mo said some of things which were attributed to him in that article then any decent and knowledgeable human being should have an issue with his views. Hell, even being seen fundraising with Donald Trump is problematic to me considering where Mariano comes from and what the president thinks about such countries.

      Not disagreeing with the point that you shouldn’t like him or respect his views. He’s surely a religious conservative who supports conservatives, who are mostly Republicans in this country, and I find most of their views abhorrent. I’m not against hating him, only against co-mingling his HOF enshrinement with his views in a way that tarnishes his athletic accomplishments.

      Silverman essentially said that his political associations/actions/views should inscribed on his HOF plaque because he personally finds them abhorrent. He writes: “None of this will be inscribed on his Hall of Fame plaque. It should, even if much of the sports world would very much like to pretend none of it exists.”

      Do you agree with that sentiment? The entire article reeks of this sentiment, and that’s my issue.

      Go through the list of the top-100 athletes in any sport and you will find lots of devout Christians who support Trump as a standard bearer for the Republican party. So what? What does that have to do with his enshrinement in the HOF? Has he misrepresented himself in any way, or cheated the game?

    50. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      I think Silverman comes off as zealous, sure. I don’t think it warrants dis-enshrinement or some kind of asterisk next to his name.

    51. Z-man

      One of the very first things I said on the matter was that Mariano Rivera, who is now a multi-millionaire and celebrity, has agency and responsibility.

      Respectfully, I disagree with this. I don’t think his “agency and responsibility” is any more that it is for any of us on the basis of being a multi-millionaire and a celebrity. He has different political views than you. That’s his business. He can do whatever he wants to do with his time and money, within the constraints of normal political discourse and civil rights laws. He has no obligation to you and your personal views.

      And conversely, Robert has the right to pen whatever he wants about Mariano, and I have the right to either agree or disagree with his views or the way he expresses them. You have the right to burn his jersey and his HOF plaque in effigy.

    52. thenoblefacehumper

      Respectfully, I disagree with this. I don’t think his “agency and responsibility” is any more that it is for any of us on the basis of being a multi-millionaire and a celebrity. He has different political views than you. That’s his business. He can do whatever he wants to do with his time and money, within the constraints of normal political discourse and civil rights laws. He has no obligation to you and your personal views.

      And conversely, Robert has the right to pen whatever he wants about Mariano, and I have the right to either agree or disagree with his views or the way he expresses them. You have the right to burn his jersey and his HOF plaque in effigy

      Uh, I didn’t say Mariano Rivera should be tarred and feathered for his views. He has a right to them as long as they remain nonviolent in practice. No one is disputing that. I personally find a lot of his views repugnant, and I think he has responsibility for holding them due to the fact that he’s had plenty of time and resources to find out they’re bigoted bunk. I think less of him than I would if he had views that I don’t consider bigoted bunk. Is that not okay? I mean, by that standard it would also be wrong to like athletes and other public figures with whom I’m ideologically aligned.

    53. Ntilakilla

      Now, do I think context is important in telling the story of just about anyone? Yeah, I do.

      personally I still think context is always useful as long as you’re capable of grappling with nuance–people can be irredeemable trash with the factors that lead them to their awfulness still serving as useful information)

      I’m not trying to be offensive here, but I do have an issue with what you’re arguing because you rushed to criticize the Silverman article without even knowing the basic context of Mariano’s religious conversion. You thought he was raised in a religious household, when his personal story was that he converted as a grown man at the time he was moving off to live in the United States.

      Also, there wasn’t any “nuance” in your objection. In fact, it was a rather caricatured one you see in a lot stereotypical liberal generalizations about people like him from countries with a history of colonization and evangelical proselytization, a point you acknowledge when you conceded we’ll never really know the factors for his right-wing evangelicalism.

      Taking some pictures with IDF dipshits and Donald Trump’s failsons in between autograph signings doesn’t meet that standard for me personally, though.

      It is when celebrities like Mariano are then used for public relations purposes to promote heinous right-wing agendas, which was the point of the Silverman article. Racist politicians like Trump and Netanyahu love to use token minorities to “sportswash” their supremacist policies. That’s why you always see them promoting photo-ops with guys like Dennis Rodman, Mike Tyson, Mariano Rivera, Draymond Green, etc. So they can turn around and say they’re not racist because token minority celebrity X is a friend or guest all while they lock brown people in concentration camps.

    54. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Jowles, wasn’t jon abbey was banned largely for hating on Silverman?

      Maybe, but I think his general churlishness had, apart from any criticism of the writers of the day, reached critical mass.

    55. Z-man

      Uh, I didn’t say Mariano Rivera should be tarred and feathered for his views. He has a right to them as long as they remain nonviolent in practice. No one is disputing that. I personally find a lot of his views repugnant, and I think he has responsibility for holding them due to the fact that he’s had plenty of time and resources to find out they’re bigoted bunk. I think less of him than I would if he had views that I don’t consider bigoted bunk. Is that not okay? I mean, by that standard it would also be wrong to like athletes and other public figures with whom I’m ideologically aligned.

      Maybe I misunderstood, I thought you were saying that because he has more “agency and responsibility” simply because he is a millionaire celebrity and should therefor be judged differently than a non-millionaire celebrity. But I guess I still take some issue with your statement above…which implies that the has “plenty of time and resources” to come around to thinking the way that you do, i.e. the “correct” way. Isn’t that essentially what you’re saying?

    56. Z-man

      Nah, I paid too much for it in 2008

      All kidding aside, isn’t that what Silverman is essentially calling for? Isn’t he, as a self-proclaimed long-time Yankees fan, doing that in a figurative sense?

      Maybe he would have felt better if Mariano blew out his arm as a teenager and the Yanks relied on some of the Mets’ closers of the last 25 years…or at least the ones with the correct political viewpoints.

    57. Ntilakilla

      I really have zero issue with Silverman’s article. If athletes and coaches like Megan Rapinoe are subject to major right-wing media criticism for taking the moral stance of speaking out and refusing to take photo-ops with a president who openly espouses right-wing bigotry, then athletes like Mariano Rivera should be fair game to those of us who find his entire agenda to be repugnant.

      Colin Kaepernick isn’t being allowed to play professional American football at the highest level because that same president pressured NFL owners into blackballing him. But writing an article critiquing Mariano Rivera’s questionable association fundraising money for Trump’s presidential campaign, befriending an Islamophobic pastor, and promoting Israeli supremacist views is unfair game? What?

      Naw, man, sorry. Some of you lost me here.

    58. thenoblefacehumper

      I’m not trying to be offensive here, but I do have an issue with what you’re arguing because you rushed to criticize the Silverman article without even knowing the basic context of Mariano’s religious conversion. You thought he was raised in a religious household, when his personal story was that he converted as a grown man at the time he was moving off to live in the United States.

      It is when celebrities like Mariano are then used for public relations purposes to promote heinous right-wing agendas, which was the point of the Silverman article. Racist politicians like Trump and Netanyahu love to use token minorities to “sportswash” their supremacist policies.

      I think you’re misunderstanding my objections. I said from the start that the article was worth writing, and that I find every association of Mo’s in the article to be deeply troubling. I’ve taken plenty of heat from friends and family over disagreements surrounding Israel and I don’t intend to stop. I don’t need to be lectured about how terrible their insufferable PR bonanzas are, I tend to be the one doing the lecturing.

      I got details about his religious upbringing wrong (I recalled him talking about being raised in a religious household but I must’ve confused that with how much he talks about his faith in general), but if you re-read you’ll see that was a small part of my objection to the article the way it was written. It had nothing to do with stereotyping post-colonial populations–I assume most people who don’t shut up about their faith were raised that way.

      I do not think it’s entirely fair to write that kind of context-free exposé about someone raised broke in a country ravaged by colonialism who hasn’t received a day of education since he was 16, regardless of his religious upbringing. I’m a little surprised you’re arguing that those factors should go completely unmentioned in an article about someone’s worldview.

    59. thenoblefacehumper

      Isn’t he, as a self-proclaimed long-time Yankees fan, doing that in a figurative sense?

      I’m fairly certain he’s a diehard Mets fan, and no I don’t see him calling for people to burn their already purchased Mariano Rivera merchandise.

      He’s simply exposing people to views Rivera holds that many would consider shitty views, and I think that’s a good thing to do but would be stronger with added context.

    60. thenoblefacehumper

      I do not think it’s entirely fair to write that kind of context-free exposé about someone raised broke in a country ravaged by colonialism who hasn’t received a day of education since he was 16, regardless of his religious upbringing. I’m a little surprised you’re arguing that those factors should go completely unmentioned in an article about someone’s worldview.

      I should add that I can’t help but say it rubs me the wrong way to see someone as privileged as Silverman let the differences in their respective upbringings go unmentioned.

      I’d like to think that if I was raised in Mariano Rivera’s situation I would wind up with the same views on everything that I currently hold. I hope that would be the case. I definitely cannot guarantee that it would be the case, and so it feels to me like there’s a punching down aspect here.

    61. Ntilakilla

      I’m a little surprised you’re arguing that those factors should go completely unmentioned in an article about someone’s worldview.

      Because I agreed with this point of yours:

      The truth is we’ll never really know,

      And as Wittgenstein once famously wrote “That whereof we cannot speak, thereof we must remain silent.” If we don’t then we run the risk of speculating and generalizing about something we know little about.

      Besides, it’s besides the point. I am sure there are many reasons for why many bigots hold the views they do. It doesn’t mitigate their bigotry or make it any less heinous for those who suffer because of it.

    62. Unreason

      The zealous are overconfident in the correctness of their beliefs, uniting fundamentalists and their most ardent critics in a passion that seems narrow-minded to any with a broader view. Questions for our time: What to do when a population of zealots grows too large to trust that the usual forms of respectful open discourse are an effective bulwark against their worst excesses? How do you resist the pressures of tribalism and preserve civility without letting the mob trample the most vulnerable?

    63. bobneptune

      What to do when a population of zealots grows too large to trust that the usual forms of respectful open discourse are an effective bulwark against their worst excesses? How do you resist the pressures of tribalism and preserve civility without letting the mob trample the most vulnerable?

      Well…. certainly we don’t need Brown shirted mobs like ANTIFA running around .

      Fidelity to the protection of freedoms embodied in the US Constitution is a pretty good guide. Or to quote Sam Hinkie…. trust the process.

    64. Owen

      I actually had no idea that Mariano has been carrying water for Trump. In general, I think it’s a public service to let people know that kind of thing at a time like this. At the same time, I think it’s going a little far to say it should be on his Cooperstown plaque.

      Jon Abbey was always pugnacious. I think he had just had it with Dolan and let it out here. Every man has his breaking point. Can’t believe I haven’t hit mine.

    65. Brian Cronin

      I like Robert’s writing a lot in general and I love that he takes on “dangerous” topics, but I think that his Mariano piece was pretty much the epitome of “I’m not saying, I’m just saying” and I am not a fan of that style of writing.

    66. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Well…. certainly we don’t need Brown shirted mobs like ANTIFA running around .

      Fill in the blanks:

      ANTIFA would cease to exist in Portland if ___________________.

      Proud Boys would cease to exist in Portland if ___________________.

      Fidelity to the protection of freedoms embodied in the US Constitution is a pretty good guide. Or to quote Sam Hinkie…. trust the process.

      And that process is:

      1) Disrupt Congressional norms and cooperation via fierce hyperpartisan party lines, purposely eroding public trust in the institution. Do whatever is necessary to control legislator action through PACs and lobbying efforts.

      2) Gerrymander districts for minority-party rule. Suppress voting via any means necessary. Commit electoral and/or voter fraud and cry ignorance if caught, as in North Carolina in 2018.

      3) Stack the courts with Originalist conservative judicial activists who openly disdain precedent. Have them say whatever is necessary to clear committee. Allow them to legislate from the bench, e.g. Bush v. Gore, Citizens United.

      I don’t trust that process.

    67. 2FOR18, understands math

      Is there anything leftists won’t shit on? So now Mariano Rivera is a white nationalist nazi? Fuck you Silverman.

    68. 2FOR18, understands math

      25% of Christians are Evangelicals
      64% of Evangelicals oppose same-sex marriage
      55% believe homosexuality should be discouraged
      56% believe aid to the poor (lol) does more harm (lol) than good (lol)
      82% disbelieve evolution
      82% believe in hell (and that you’re going there for not being part of their club, you heathen)
      55% believe that the Bible is the Word of God and should be taken literally (and that you are a sinner for not believing the Word of God, and therefore are going to hell)
      50% believe in moral absolutism, so either agree with all of the above or go to hell, sinner
      60% believe that religion is the guide to morality (i.e. not philosophy, reason, common sense, or [lol, 3%] science

      How come you woke assholes are always talking about polls and thoughts and never rip on Muslims, who are currently KILLING gays and women for the crime of being gay and adultery?

    69. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      How come you woke assholes are always talking about polls and thoughts and never rip on Muslims, who are currently KILLING gays and women for the crime of being gay and adultery?

      For the purpose of this thread:

      Name a theocratic, conservative Muslim currently serving in the U.S. Congress.

    70. 2FOR18, understands math

      @49 good post. I respect the non aggressive tone that I didn’t express

    71. Unreason

      trust the process

      For how long though? Is everything still OK when a demagogue is leading chants at mass rallies that target vulnerable minorities and his party lines up behind him? Strong men around the world copy his tactics for delegitimizing the press. Heads of liberal democracies look elsewhere for leadership. He has a huge media apparatus that stokes support for rather than questions his norm-busting transgressions. Maybe it is OK and all will pass with our most cherished norms and institutions intact. Seems like a legit question though.

      The framers thought they’d put in enough checks and balances to guarantee deliberation and let cooler tempers prevail. Times have changed. Social media has nixed any hope of broad agreement on facts and narratives. There are mob tendencies on both left and right. The middle seems to be fading quickly. I won’t quote Yeats, but you get the idea.

      I don’t really know of this is like the 30’s when the center held in the US while other countries went left or right. I hope so. I’m just not sure. And I’m not sure what to do about it if it’s not.

    72. 2FOR18, understands math

      For the purpose of this thread:

      Name a theocratic, conservative Muslim currently serving in the U.S. Congress.

      I know you’re trying to get me with ‘conservative’, but Ilhan Abdullahi Omar is an anti semitic asshole.

    73. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      @75

      This is whataboutism. No one’s saying Wahhabism is all hunky-dory–likely everyone here thinks it’s retrograde trash, because it is. So is American Christian Evangelicalism, though. We’re not talking about Mo’s relationship to Christians tout court, or Muslims tout court. We’re talking about Mo’s relationship to an extremely unsavory group of religious fanatics (and Donald fucking Trump). If he were cozying up to Mohammad Bin Salman, he’d deserve just as much censure. Like others, I don’t think he should be disbarred from the HOF–sports isn’t an ethics contest–but I’m glad Silverman wrote this article, even if it’s imperfect and I don’t agree with all of the framing. Bringing up Muslims when we’re talking about Mo’s relationship to Evangelicalism is a non sequitur.

    74. 2FOR18, understands math

      @78 this isn’t Nazi Germany. Hitler was appointed Chancellor. He wasn’t elected

      If the Democrats nominate anybody better than that criminal hag Hillary, they’ll win. Biden is a clown but he will beat Trump if the wokes let him have the best nom.

    75. 2FOR18, understands math

      @80 you call it whataboutism, I call it exposing hypocrisy. Silverman isn’t mad about theocracy, he’s mad about Christian theocracy. He isn’t mad about a baseball player being political, he’s mad about a baseball player having different political beliefs than he has. It’s a hit piece to virtue signal that Orange Man is a poopy head.

    76. Ntilakilla

      The zealous are overconfident in the correctness of their beliefs, uniting fundamentalists and their most ardent critics in a passion that seems narrow-minded to any with a broader view.

      Well…. certainly we don’t need Brown shirted mobs like ANTIFA running around .

      I am not particularly a fan of Antifa’s confrontational tactics. I think their acts of violence are a boon to the extreme right-wing in this country because their attacks inevitably publicize right wing causes in ways that allows the side arguing in favor of ethnic cleansing to paint themselves as an aggrieved party.

      However, I find the characterization of their project as the flip-side to Alt-Right fascism as a most heinous false equivalency on par with Trump’s characterization of the Charlottesville clash as one where “there is blame on both sides.”

      The fact is that in the past ten years right-wing terrorism have killed 313 people, ICE agents have killed 81 people and Customs & Border Patrol agents have killed 98 people. Antifa hasn’t killed a single person.

      Both sides aren’t even remotely on the same plane and yet you’ll find people who are effacing logic with Orwellian doublespeak to the point that they’re calling the side fighting fascists the brownshirts. Up is down, black is white and war is peace apparently.

    77. 2FOR18, understands math

      @83 assuming your numbers are accurate, how many of those 10 years had the Nobel Peace dude as President?

    78. Ntilakilla

      How come you woke assholes

      Childish name-calling only delegitimizes your own argument not the other side’s.

      are always talking about polls and thoughts and never rip on Muslims, who are currently KILLING gays and women for the crime of being gay and adultery?

      Because I don’t live in a country politically dominated by Islamic fundamentalists. I live in a nation politically dominated by Christian fundamentalists who mobilize support for the Republican Party, a party which is not only the most dangerous political organization in the country but the entire world today.

    79. thenoblefacehumper

      Jew here. Donate to Ilhan on the regular. Consider her perhaps my single favorite person in the entire federal government. Criticism of Israel, of the much more mild variety than what my fellow Jews and I say all the time, ain’t anti-Semitic.

    80. thenoblefacehumper

      Also, it’s quite obvious why you used her full name despite that being a highly abnormal thing to do when referring to a member of Congress.

      Pretty fucking gross!

    81. bobneptune

      Well…. certainly we don’t need Brown shirted mobs like ANTIFA running around .

      Fill in the blanks:

      ANTIFA would cease to exist in Portland if __(the police actually did their jobs and arrested any asshole who assaults anyone or anyone’s property)_________________.

      Proud Boys would cease to exist in Portland if __(If the proud boys violate any laws they should be arrested and prosecuted just like ANTIFA) if they don’t violate any laws the city of Portland or any other entity has no business getting involved._Unpopular speech is still protected________________.

      Fidelity to the protection of freedoms embodied in the US Constitution is a pretty good guide. Or to quote Sam Hinkie…. trust the process.

      And that process is:

      1) Disrupt Congressional norms and cooperation via fierce hyperpartisan party lines, purposely eroding public trust in the institution. Do whatever is necessary to control legislator action through PACs and lobbying efforts.

      2) Gerrymander districts for minority-party rule. Suppress voting via any means necessary. Commit electoral and/or voter fraud and cry ignorance if caught, as in North Carolina in 2018.

      3) Stack the courts with Originalist conservative judicial activists who openly disdain precedent. Have them say whatever is necessary to clear committee. Allow them to legislate from the bench, e.g. Bush v. Gore, Citizens United.

      I don’t trust that process.

      Jowles…. you love the system when you agree with the out come. Gerrymandering is as American as apple pie. It was named for Ebby Gerry FFS!

      When that dems control the Presidency and Senate they can push through as many woke MFers as they please and there won’t be a single thing the right can do. Win the presidency AND the senate. You only need 2 more votes.

      Personally… I don’t like abortion. However the USSC said it is the law of the land and IMO so be it. I don’t attack abortion clinics…. I went out and adopted 2 infants from girls that…

    82. Ntilakilla

      @83 assuming your numbers are accurate, how many of those 10 years had the Nobel Peace dude as President?

      And how is this question is relevant to my point?

    83. 2FOR18, understands math

      Also, it’s quite obvious why you used her full name despite that being a highly abnormal thing to do when referring to a member of Congress.

      Pretty fucking gross!

      Lmao! Using her full name is racist!

      I cut and pasted her name to make sure I had it right….

    84. JK47

      Wait, you had to cut and paste “Ilhan Omar?” That doesn’t seem super hard to spell.

      I call bullshit.

    85. Ntilakilla

      You know what’s the really funny and telling point about right-wingers who rail against Ilhan Omar and Islamic fundamentalism? How little they really care about it in practice when you actually consider their unmitigated and undying support for a president in Donald Trump whose own well-documented personal, financial, and political ties with the Saudi royal family – the greatest promoters of global jihadism in the world bar none – are so great that he actually calls them a “terrific ally.” This is the same ally which had embarrassing links to the plotters of the 9/11 attacks and funded ISIS.

    86. thenoblefacehumper

      Lmao! Using her full name is racist!

      I cut and pasted her name to make sure I had it right….

      Tell me, is this something you do every time you refer to a politician? If I searched your post history, would that be the case?

      If not, why’d you do it when it came to Ilhan?

      I figured you wouldn’t respond to my initial post on the matter, by the way.

    87. 2FOR18, understands math

      Lol now posting the correct spelling of a name is racist and bullshit. It must be so miserable to be a leftist.

    88. 2FOR18, understands math

      @92 I’m a libertarian. Talk to me, not the voices in your head. If you can find one post of mine supporting Trump I’ll buy you a drink.

    89. bobneptune

      Bush v. Gore

      LOL…. bad lawyering by the woke side. They should have asked for a statewide recount using the same criteria statewide…. but of course…. they weren’t looking for an accurate out come…. they were just chumming for 538 votes where they though they might “find” them Palm Beach, Broward , and Dade all D strong holds.

      Nothing quite as satisfying as watching someone getting hoisted on their own petards….

      But keep re-litigating that one…. a very productive enterprise

    90. thenoblefacehumper

      I’m a libertarian. Talk to me, not the voices in your head. If you can find one post of mine supporting Trump I’ll buy you a drink.

      Don’t you mean Donald John Trump, what with it being a regular practice of yours to refer to every politician by their first, middle, and last name?

    91. 2FOR18, understands math

      @93 I didn’t know how to spell her name so I looked it up and copied and pasted it. I guess that means I’m a white supremacist. You guys crack me up lol

    92. Ntilakilla

      I’m a libertarian

      Ah, then as a defender of liberty you should support Ilhan Omar’s latest legislative stance on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in introducing a new resolution protecting the right to boycott in the United States. She’s responding to how 25 states have passed anti-free speech laws curtailing the right to participate in the boycott, divestment and sanctions movement targeting Israel. As you know, this attack upon our First Amendment right is anti-liberty, and therefore anti-American.

      C’mon do it. Defend liberty, defend America, support Ilhan.

    93. 2FOR18, understands math

      Yes I defend everyone’s right to say what they want or to freely assemble in the public sphere.

    94. Ntilakilla

      @100

      So you and Ilhan are simpatico like political soul mates. Two defenders of American freedom against AIPAC’s anti-libertarian attempt to stifle our nation’s political discourse.

    95. Ntilakilla

      I feel…

      Ilhan Abdullahi Omar is an anti semitic asshole.

      …like progress…

      So you and Ilhan are simpatico like political soul mates.

      …is being…

      Yes sir

      …made here.

    96. Henry George

      Is it possible to appreciate the counterstrategy the FO employed (once the KD/KI freebies weren’t happening) while also being disappointed at the amounts paid for those 2nd-year nonguaranteed contracts?

    97. thenoblefacehumper

      Don’t know what AIPAC is though.

      Well, they’re a large factor in you believing Ilhan Omar is an anti-Semite despite that being totally unfounded. So there’s that.

    98. bidiong

      I feel like this thread is a complete show of why the country has no chance of ever coming together again.

      I think if you got most of us in a room we’d have a great time and solve some problems, but then you put this internet thing in the middle and it becomes tribalism.

    99. Henry George

      In my view, the FO feels that the younger players need to be challenged by legit NBA veterans on prove-it contracts.

      The downside to renting cap space lies in absorbing the garbage that comes with the assets. And perhaps the FO didn’t think that the assets were worth the trouble, and that going with vets on the prove-it contracts was the stronger play.

    100. Henry George

      Like others, I think that this team has a very variance owing to the large roster turnover. I can see this team anywhere winning anywhere between 30-40 games this season.

    101. Ntilakilla

      I feel like this thread is a complete show of why the country has no chance of ever coming together again.

      This golden era of past togetherness, was that before the early rebellions, slave revolts, frontier wars, major civil war, labor strikes, communist scares, great depression, civil rights protests, anti-war movements, race riots, etc. or after them?

      I think if you got most of us in a room we’d have a great time and solve some problems, but then you put this internet thing in the middle and it becomes tribalism.

      My experience is that when even a small group of friends get together they can’t even decide on what toppings to order on their pizza. And it always ends up the same. Some end up really fighting for what they want, others go with the flow because they don’t care, and the ones who lose out are dissatisfied but go along because they’re in the minority. I think the same general principle applies to our political system.

    102. bidiong

      I disagree wholeheartedly Ntilakilla. If you have common ground outside of politics you can then have a rational discussion on disagreements which allows you to see each other’s points of view without wanting to eliminate the other person. That is the area where you can change someone’s mind on a topic. There’s a direct correlation from the change in the schedule of Congress to where we are today.

      In the past lawmakers wouldn’t go home on the weekend and Democrats and Republicans mingled together and became friends even though they didn’t agree on everything politically. This made legislating easier because they didn’t approach each other from a standpoint of being an enemy. Now they all go home on the weekend to be with their constituents, aka, fundraise and they don’t have any allies on the other side of the isle.

    103. Ntilakilla

      In the past lawmakers wouldn’t go home on the weekend and Democrats and Republicans mingled together and became friends even though they didn’t agree on everything politically

      ***

      The Caning of Charles Sumner, or the Brooks–Sumner Affair, occurred on May 22, 1856, in the United States Senate, when Representative Preston Brooks, a pro-slavery Democrat from South Carolina used a walking cane to attack Senator Charles Sumner, an abolitionist Republican from Massachusetts, in retaliation for a speech given by Sumner two days earlier in which he fiercely criticized slaveholders, including a relative of Brooks. The beating nearly killed Sumner and it drew a sharply polarized response from the American public on the subject of the expansion of slavery in the United States. It has been considered symbolic of the “Breakdown of reasoned discourse” that eventually led to the American Civil War.

    104. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      This golden era of past togetherness, was that before the early rebellions, slave revolts, frontier wars, major civil war, labor strikes, communist scares, great depression, civil rights protests, anti-war movements, race riots, etc. or after them?

      It is literally true that Congress is significantly more polarized than at any point in the last 100 years.

      Again, I promote this book for a fast read from non-partisan writers on how that polarization has come to be — and how it most certainly is not a “both sides bad” problem.

    105. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      I disagree wholeheartedly Ntilakilla. If you have common ground outside of politics you can then have a rational discussion on disagreements which allows you to see each other’s points of view without wanting to eliminate the other person. That is the area where you can change someone’s mind on a topic. There’s a direct correlation from the change in the schedule of Congress to where we are today.

      In the past lawmakers wouldn’t go home on the weekend and Democrats and Republicans mingled together and became friends even though they didn’t agree on everything politically. This made legislating easier because they didn’t approach each other from a standpoint of being an enemy. Now they all go home on the weekend to be with their constituents, aka, fundraise and they don’t have any allies on the other side of the isle.

      This is partially true, but it is disingenuous to hold the parties equally accountable.

    106. Zippy Le Pin

      #109, I think this thread, while not so very basketball-related, was really excellent for political discourse, all the way into the 70s. Trash talk held to a minimum, relative civility, various people scoring interesting points right and left — even Ntilakilla draining repeated turnarounds from the elbow. Then 2for18 came in and shat the bed. He’s like our very own thread Mudiay.

    107. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Honestly, Owen? I’m glad I found out that one of my all-time favorite Yankees is helping those America First PAC scumbags fundraise.

      I’m sorry that 2for18 (does that username refer to a past grievance? I’m noticing a trend) had to have a Whatabout meltdown, but I’m glad I read that. I might not have come down as hard on Rivera as Silverman did, but I sure as hell won’t forget what I read about him in that article.

    108. Ntilakilla

      Damn, I don’t have a subscription to the Washington Post.

      #109, I think this thread, while not so very basketball-related, was really excellent for political discourse, all the way into the 70s. Trash talk held to a minimum, relative civility, various people scoring interesting points right and left — even Ntilakilla draining repeated turnarounds from the elbow. Then 2for18 came in and shat the bed. He’s like our very own thread Mudiay.

      LOL

    109. bidiong

      100% agree Jowels. The change occurred during the Gingrich Congress. I found that out reading a great book called Leaders Eat Last. I highly recommend it. It nails a lot of what’s wrong in business in this country even though it really isn’t a political book.

    110. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Then go to the library and check out that linked book. Get the Mueller Report, while you’re at it.

    111. Brian Cronin

      does that username refer to a past grievance? I’m noticing a trend

      Just in case you weren’t joking and actually don’t know what 2for18 is a reference to, it is John Stark’s line in Game 7 against Houston in 1994.

    112. bidiong

      I’m sure you think I’m a Trump supporter Jowels, but I really am not. I actually got ostracized pretty badly in upstate for not being for him. Lol

    113. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Just in case you weren’t joking and actually don’t know what 2for18 is a reference to, it is John Stark’s line in Game 7 against Houston in 1994.

      Hah, I meant the rest of the username.

      I’m sure you think I’m a Trump supporter Jowels, but I really am not. I actually got ostracized pretty badly in upstate for not being for him. Lol

      I don’t. I was agreeing with you.

    114. Brian Cronin

      I’m sure you think I’m a Trump supporter Jowels, but I really am not. I actually got ostracized pretty badly in upstate for not being for him. Lol

      Upstate New York is so weird, man.

    115. Ntilakilla

      Clearly, a few instances from a long time ago invalidate my whole post. /eyeroll

      Truth is that this Congress was a freaking madhouse of physical altercations up until the Civil War, that’s almost a full century of U.S. American politics. Joanne Freeman, an early American historian, has written about this in her latest book, The Field of Blood: Violence in Congress and the Road to Civil War. The whole Brooks-Sumner scandal was just the most infamous instance. I’m not even talking about the executive where you had issues like Burr-Hamilton duel or a lout like Andrew Jackson cursing out and threatening enemies big and small.

      I think nostalgia plays a lot into the narrative that Congress is more divided today than ever before. I haven’t look at THCJ’s sources because I don’t have a WashPo subscription and don’t own the book he’s recommending, but I do know of the 2014 Princeton study by Gilens and Page reviewing answers to 1,779 survey questions asked between 1981 and 2002 on public policy issues. What they found was there was actually a great source of consensus in Capitol Hill when a proposal was preferred by the business community.

      Just a week ago a supposedly divided House passed a defense spending bill the 2020 fiscal year promoted by the Pentagon and defense industry at a time when there is this massive debate about the skyrocketing deficit and talk about cutting entitlements like Social Security. And while there was a disagreement about the bill, it was mainly on the question of whether we should spend 733 billion like the Democrats wanted or 75o billion one…

    116. danvt

      Don’t know what AIPAC is though.

      I think if you talk to any 100 random people you won’t find too many unreasonable ones, IMHO. What you will find are some people who are making uninformed choices. These choices have consequences but when the truth comes out most people will accept it eventually. Progress is frustratingly slow but there. Anyone read Steven Pinker’s work?

    117. Z-man

      Upstate New York is so weird, man.

      My kid is about to start college in a small liberal arts college about as far upstate in NY as you can go. I already traveled there several times from near the city, by just about every route you can take. I’ve also traveled through and stayed in lots of small towns during the college search. It truly is weird. Without NYC and burbs, NY is a deep red state. Frankly, there is not much difference between most of rural NYS and rural NC or rural western VA, aside for the crops/products and the nature of conservatism.

    118. Z-man

      Correction: without the bigger cities in NYS and their ‘burbs, NY is a deep red state. Some of the bigger college towns like Ithaca are also exceptions.

    119. ess-dog

      Dang, y’all need to put down this blog, pick up a Bible, and learn somethin’ before The Rapture is upon us, that’s all I’m gonna say.

    120. Brian Cronin

      My kid is about to start college in a small liberal arts college about as far upstate in NY as you can go. I already traveled there several times from near the city, by just about every route you can take. I’ve also traveled through and stayed in lots of small towns during the college search. It truly is weird. Without NYC and burbs, NY is a deep red state. Frankly, there is not much difference between most of rural NYS and rural NC or rural western VA, aside for the crops/products and the nature of conservatism.

      Yeah, once you get past the Albany area (or, I guess I could just call it “The Capitol Region” like they call it), it’s deeeeeeeeeeep red. And there are plenty of pockets before Albany, as well. You could be driving through the hippie enclaves of Beacon and suddenly you’re in Trump Country. It’s so bizarre.

    121. bidiong

      Upstate NY isn’t as deep red as you think. Cuomo got 33% of the vote in Saratoga County, which is considered the bastion of conservatism in Upstate. Fulton, Montgomery, Schenectady, and Albany are all Democrat to death.

    122. bidiong

      The rest of the North country is just people that survive somehow. There’s no economy West and North. The fingerlakes have the wine thing, that’s about it.

      The biggest thing that people hate is that people from NYC think upstate is their personal playground to use as they want during the summer.

      You guys down there don’t help yourself when you shoot each other during hunting season trying to be sportsmen. Happens every year I swear.

    123. Ingmarrrr

      Since Israel is mentioned here I thought I’d bring some news from yesterday. Our security forces demolished 13 buildings belonging to 72 Palestinian families, throwing them out into the street, and in a separate incident that came to light yesterday an IDF soldier shot a 10 year old boy in the head from 100 meters away.

      This stuff happens daily here. Daily. If you guys think camps for immigrants are bad come visit the territories here. Then go cheer Rivera for entering the HOF because, lol, sports and politics aren’t related.

    124. bobneptune

      Since Israel is mentioned here I thought I’d bring some news from yesterday. Our security forces demolished 13 buildings belonging to 72 Palestinian families, throwing them out into the street, and in a separate incident that came to light yesterday an IDF soldier shot a 10 year old boy in the head from 100 meters away.

      This stuff happens daily here. Daily. If you guys think camps for immigrants are bad come visit the territories here. Then go cheer Rivera for entering the HOF because, lol, sports and politics aren’t related.

      And I’m guessing the poor downtrodden haven’t done a single thing to engender such reaction, ehhh. Like maybe lob a couple of thousand rockets over the border with regularity. What do you think America would do if the “citizens” of Toronto started lobbing thousands of rockets at Buffalo?

    125. Ingmarrrr

      Bob, do you honestly believe I’ve never heard this line of thinking before? Or that any other lefty in Israel haven’t heard it a million times?

      It’s not the place to go to a detailed back and forth. The bottom line is that Israel is the stronger party and it’s abusing its power greatly, taking away any reasonable solution to the conflict. Ethnic cleansing, without saying the phrase itself obviously, is the official strategy of our extreme right, and they are the people who control politics here.

      Cue 2FOR18 talking about virtue signaling in 10, 9, 8…..

    126. Grocer

      In the past lawmakers wouldn’t go home on the weekend and Democrats and Republicans mingled together and became friends even though they didn’t agree on everything politically

      Couple things. This mostly only happened between WWII and 1992 and it was definitely falling off by the end. Legislators were strongly united by something fundamental – racism. There were still earmarks, which meant legislators could be paid off to vote against party on issues they didn’t care about by having money earmaked specifically for their district. Earmarks were the biggest reason why they got along and the biggest reason why there was compromise. But it’s pork and waste so poof, had to go.

    127. Ntilakilla

      Since Israel is mentioned here I thought I’d bring some news from yesterday. Our security forces demolished 13 buildings belonging to 72 Palestinian families, throwing them out into the street, and in a separate incident that came to light yesterday an IDF soldier shot a 10 year old boy in the head from 100 meters away.

      This stuff happens daily here. Daily. If you guys think camps for immigrants are bad come visit the territories here. Then go cheer Rivera for entering the HOF because, lol, sports and politics aren’t related.

      I am standing in ovation.

    128. Z-man

      I’ll try to make a case for Knox improving. Essentially, Knox is in a very rare club. Only 8 rookie teenagers in NBA history have put up more than 900 FGA: Luca, Durant, Melo, LeBron, Wiggins, Knox, Mudiay and D’Angelo. Mudiay and Knox are the only ones to have a WS48 of under zero. But as far as TS% goes, Doncic let the pack with .545, followed by Durant (.519) Wiggins (.517) Melo (.509) Russell (.506) LeBron (.488) Knox (.475) and Mudiay (.437). However, Knox was second in this group in 3pt% (behind Russell) second in 3PAr (behind Doncic) and second in DRB% (behind Doncic). He had the lowest AST% but also the lowest TOV% and get this, the lowest USG%.

      If you make the cutoff 800 FGA, the list grows to 12 (Steph, Tatum, Booker and Cliff Robinson). Knox is 4th in 3pt% and 2nd in 3PAr. Also 4th in DRB%.

      Lower it to 700 and it grows to 18 Knox was 6th in 3pt%, 3rd in 3PAr and 7th in DRB%
      19th.
      Lower it to 600 grows to 32. Of those 32, Knox was 7th in 3PT% and 4th in 3PTr. He dropped to 16th in DRB% but get this: he had the 2nd lowest TOV% out of the 32 players.

      Finally, lower it to 500 FGA and he moves to 9th, 4th, and 19th, with the 3rd lowest TOV%.

      So we can conclude:
      1) 19yo’s that shoot as many times as Knox did are extremely rare, suggesting that this role was way over Knox’s head.
      2) His 3pt shooting percentage ranks him among the best teenagers ever in that category.
      3) He shot 3 pointers nearly 40% of the time, and his 364 attempts were third among teens ever. This suggests that his % was not a small sample-size fluke.
      4) He was a very respectable defensive rebounder for a teenager.
      5) Considering that his Usage rate was a middle of this pack 22.3%, his extremely low TOV% is a positive, as it suggests that he was either shooting or making safe passes, bumping up his PPP a bit, although this is probably nullified by his low OREB%. Still something to build on.

    129. danvt

      Yes, unfortunately.

      Well, it’s well researched, interesting, realistic and offers hope. But nah…you know better…

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