Today’s 4 Factors (vs CHI, 11/24/07)

After each game this season, we’ll be taking a look at what the four factors have to say about the game– how the winner won and the loser lost. For an intro to the four factors, see A Layman’s Guide to Advanced NBA Statistics.

Knicks defeat Bulls, 85 – 78

	Pace	Eff	eFG	FT/FG	OREB%	TOr
CHI	92.0	84.8	38.0%	18.1	21.6	15.2
NYK		92.4	41.0%	36.1	27.9	17.4

Finally, the losing streak is over. Still, it’s hard to take much comfort in this win. The Knicks had to fight tooth and nail to beat the struggling Bulls– perhaps the only team in the league underperforming more than the Knicks themselves– without their best player, Luol Deng.

New York’s woes continued on offense, even though the Bulls haven’t lived up to their defensive reputation so far. The Bulls have been allowing opponents a rather generous 49% eFG, but still the Knicks turned in another effort in the low 40s. The saving grace was that not all the guards were terrible– Marbury had a nice game, helping to offset poor shooting performances from Crawford, Q, and Nate. But things will have to get better if the Knicks are to have any hope against better teams.

This game was won on the other end of the court, as the Bulls played even worse than the Knicks offensively. It seems wrongheaded to give the Knicks too much credit for a good defensive performance here. The Bulls came into the game averaging 92.8 points per 100 possessions, worst in the league by a wide margin, and were without their best offensive player. On the other hand, one could argue that any time the defensively inept Knicks can hold an opponent below their average offensive performance, it is a strong defensive effort (relative to the norm). The Knicks’ best effort was on the defensive glass, where they took away one of the Bulls’ only offensive strengths (29.1 o-reb% coming into the game). It was a good team effort, but credit Quentin Richardson in particular for a tough presence on the boards.

4 factor stats were acquired using the ESPN4Factors script by Cherokee of the ABPRmetrics board. Firefox users can use this script (after installing the Greasemonkey extension) to see 4 factor stats automatically displayed in all NBA boxscores on

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32 thoughts to “Today’s 4 Factors (vs CHI, 11/24/07)”

  1. Good to see that Zach still wanted the ball at the end despite the turnovers and the missed freethrows. He survived it all and made the key baskets we needed. That gives me some hope.

    Are there stats which measure shots made / rebounds / assists, etc. at big times in the game?

  2. The worst thing that could happen to the Knicks now is to win a few games. Wholesale changes still should be made, Starting with Isiah and Marbury.

  3. paolodelac, I hear you man. this year’s draft looks to be deep with PGs and we actually have a lottery pick this time(for now). damm, imagine derrick rose as a knick! it’s kinda sad that the season isnt even a month underway and i already want it to end.

  4. Did anyone see that weak, limp-grip handshake between Isiah and Marbury during the Bulls game. I caught it broadcasted during a recap highlight.

    I don’t believe there is any real progress with that relationship behind the scenes. These half hearted efforts to show solidarity publicly are pretty transparent.

    It still remains that one or both of them need to mature before any thing good can happen for the organization long term.

  5. I like what’s going on at the KnickerBlogger and the 4 Factors tracking. The Jazz roll into MSG tomorrow night – it will be interesting to see if the Train Wreck continues, or if for a night the group of talented individuals gel together.

    Memo to Knicks Owner: There is no “I” in TEAM, so Get Rid of Isaiah. Then go get a couple of players who are pass first, defensive focused, and capable of rebounding in traffic – even if it costs you a couple of your “On Paper Stars”.

    To read more on the Jazz – check out my blog.

  6. Isiah will stay for the rest of the year due to the appeal process. Marbury could be traded next year but not now. I just pray LeBron really does want to come to NYC. The Jazz will smoke the Knicks, only advice is to have Curry sit on Boozer. Ronnie Brewer is going to grab even more than his average 2.7 steals. Crawford should be on notice. It will be fun to see Balkman on AK47, but I always watch my Knicks.

  7. I hope knick fans go to the games, make their displeasure heard, we shouldn’t take this mediocrity anymore, we want changes.

  8. why spend good dollars on a bad team? i’ll watch every game on tv but there’s no way i’ll buy a ticket as long as dolan owns that. except for tourists, i dont see how someone who enjoys basketball would every pay money to see this team play. why prolong the agony?

  9. Kirelenko and Boozer run the floor well, will be interesting to see if our bigs can get back on D…this is the type of front line we have trouble with.

  10. Ronnie Brewer is a monster. I have him on my fantasy team but am I looking forward to seeing him play. His numbers are great, 52% shooting, 86% from the line. 13.36 points in 30 minutes, 2.7 steals, and less than a turnover per game. He is second in the league in steals. Had 14 points, 6 assists, 5 steals, one turnover the other night. Will give Crawford fits…

  11. “Kirelenko and Boozer run the floor well, will be interesting to see if our bigs can get back on D?this is the type of front line we have trouble with.”

    What sort of front line DON’T we have trouble with?

  12. we didn’t have much trouble with Chicago’s front line, none of whom have anything resembling a post game.

    on a related note, Ben Wallace couldn’t do a thing to stop Curry in the post, except flop a few times. this made Artest’s D on Curry a few games back even more impressive, one of the handful of people in the league who can stop him one on one.

  13. We didn’t have any problem with them on defense, yes. But on offense, our front court of Randolph and Curry combined to go 14-29, 13-22 from the line, with 13 rebounds, and ten turnovers. That’s not good…

  14. Chicago front line doesn’t match up well with Knicks front line. Would’ve expected Gordon to have a big night for Chicago to beat Knicks, he didn’t.

    Miami front line another that doesn’t have what kills us…a Bosh or a Howard type guy,really active on both ends, with foot speed….

    There are a few we match up better with than others, I hate watching our bigs lumber up the floor trailing their covers by three or four strides…

  15. “But on offense, our front court of Randolph and Curry combined to go 14-29, 13-22 from the line, with 13 rebounds, and ten turnovers. That?s not good?”

    what does FT shooting have to do with the other team’s front line?

  16. I stopped reading that link after this sentence:

    “here is Manu Ginobili’s cell number: 1-800-BE-A-PRO.”

    sorry, that’s no way to refer to the biggest flopper in the league right now, no matter how skilled he is.

  17. I called that 1-800-BE-A-PRO. It turns out that is a recorded messege from Velvet Jones about the “Glamourous life of a prostitute.”

  18. I have a question, why isn’t Isiah getting involved in the Varejao situation, can’t the Knicks engineer a sign and trade?

    That is the kind of tough nosed defensive minded player that we need.

    They can get Jeffries and a young guy for Varejao who was rated the 22nd best player in the league last year.

  19. “What does FT shooting have to do with the other team?s front line?”


    Just wanted to paint a complete picture of offensive mediocrity…

  20. I would love to sign Varejao, though how he would get minutes when Lee can’t get on the floor for more than 25, i dont know…

  21. I love Varejao, but we really don’t need him. he’s actually one of the few quality players in the league that wouldn’t be much of an upgrade, unless we could somehow move Zach R. for him.

  22. Owen,

    Maybe the time is right to unload Lee when his value is the highest. If you get Vaejao plus you already have Balkman. Those two can be your starting and small forwards, combine them with Q and Zach Randolph and Curry and you are looking at your 5 man front line for the whole game. Varejao who led the league in taking charges last year would be a notable addition.

    You can spin Lee whose value is very high right now, won’t be so much longer when people realize that his foot is giving him issues. And spin him off in a package for a point guard. Who I don’t know but I am just saying how Varejao would make Lee expendable.

    I read in Newsday that Lee isn’t happy with the way that he is being used and the culture of the team, something about him trying to be a leader but being the only white guy on the team and being a vocal leader was difficult.

    We have Lee for what? One more year, do you really think that he is going to stay in NY? Would you want to? Why not trade him when his value is the highest.

  23. Varejao and Lee are pretty similar players, and Varejao is obviously greatly helped by playing with the best perimeter player in the game. I don’t see the point, I don’t think that’s much of an upgrade. we need a real point guard, one that can pass, play defense, or, ideally, both.

  24. I think you only trade Lee if you can package him in a deal for a true superstar (Kobe? — I know, I know, Kobe is hard to root for, but he does have the soul of an assassin, something sorely lacking on this club). While I am not the biggest Lee fan on these boards, I do think he is a valuable contributor, works hard, wants to win. If we move him, we need to get a franchise guy in the deal.

    Knicks don’t need another role player, they need a game-changer:

    We have a center who can’t miss FGs but can’t hit FTs…He isn’t a defensive force.

    We have a point guard who isn’t a leader, prefers to be a scorer to a playmaker.

    Our power forward and small forward miss 60% of their shots. At least Zach is rebounding though.

    Our bench swingman brings D and energy (Balkman) but can’t hit foul shots.

    Our shooting guard…well, he can’t really shoot. But on occasion he goes nuts and wins games for us, maybe 4 or 5 almost single-handedly last year.

    Should I go on? Every one of our guys is pretty flawed — Zeke got Marbury hoping he was a superstar, he isn’t and never was. Maybe we’ll get it all going against Utah, make some shots, make free throws, stifle the perimeter, get back on the break…a boy can dream…

  25. You can trade Lee your best value right now for a pass first point guard.

    This way Randolph won’t have to dribble as much so less turnovers, Curry can hit alleyoops all day, and crawford can be set for give and gos.

    Just imagine Balkman running the floor with a real general.

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