Opting Out a Pipe Dream

In today’s Newsday, Alan Hahn wrote a column on how D’Antoni’s up-tempo system could help New York rid itself of a few big contracts. This theory is that a faster pace will make the players’ statistics inflated hence giving them a higher value. In order to get under the cap, the Knicks will have to move a few key contracts for ones of the same amount but less years. The prevailing thought is that the players that would hurt salary cap would be dumped for expiring contracts so that they can make a play in free agency.

However Hahn brings a different spin to the table, he suggests that Crawford, Curry, and Richardson might opt out of their contract because they would garner more on the open market. According to Hoopshype, Crawford and Richardson could forgo $9M in 2010 to become free agents a year early. Meanwhile Curry has the option to leave in the summer of 2009 in lieu of $10M or the summer of 2010 instead of earning $11M.

It’s feasible that Jamal Crawford could get a long term offer for that much, as he would only be 29 and many teams could use a shooting guard that can score. But I can’t imagine any NBA team offering Eddy Curry enough to tear up his current contract. Even if you put aside that Curry is a one trick pony with major flaws, his heart issues make him a major risk. And the odds that Quentin Richardson could earn $9M for a year of playing basketball is on par with the chance that Dick Cheney could win American Idol.

The problem with Hahn’s logic is that these players would have to fetch more on the open market than their final payment for the move to make sense. For instance let’s assume Eddy Curry is really worth $7M a year. In this case Curry wouldn’t opt out his deal, because he’d earn more by staying with New York until 2011 and signing a 3 year deal ($22M + $18M = $40M) than he would if he opted out & signed a 5 year deal ($35M). This isn’t to say that the Knicks will be stuck with these players until 2010, but trading them is a more feasible option. A team might deem it worthy to have the services of Curry, Richardson, or Crawford for a year or two, especially if it would come at the price of an expiring contract that doesn’t fit their team construct. Additionally one of the less palatable players (Richardson) could be moved with a valued commodity (like a young player or draft pick).

But I think hoping that Curry or Richardson get offers that make it worth leaving money on the table is highly improbable. If the Knicks want to shed themselves of these deals, they’re going to need to make an effort to move them.

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Mike Kurylo

Mike Kurylo is the founder and editor of KnickerBlogger.net. His book on the 2012 Knicks, "We’ll Always Have Linsanity," is on sale now. Follow him on twitter (@KnickerBlogger).

55 thoughts to “Opting Out a Pipe Dream”

  1. Any GM that would pay any of our current guys big money like that would be out of their mind.

    Curry has to lose a ton of weight and dedicate himself to being more agile if he is to have any impact….in other words, re-invent himself as a power forward, he is not a good center. Won’t happen.

    Richardson would need to find the fountain of youth. Won’t happen…

    Crawford would need to be able to shoot…won’t happen.

    Best hope is these guys just all get reduced minutes, reduced shot attempts, reduced matador defense opportunities….

    I agree with you, getting a team to take any of these guys off our hands will be very hard work, and/or Lee/Balkman in the deal. And those of you who don’t want to put Crawford in the same category as Curry — he is the least bad of our starters, but he is bad, make no mistake about it…

  2. Mitch Lawrence’s article today indicates that players like Lee, Balkman and Morris will have targets on their backs with D’Antoni. According to the article, which I take with a grain of salt, D’Antoni wants players who can score from anywhere on the court, and these players are not scorers. He opined about trading Lee with Big Snacks to get a more D’Antoni-styled player.

    While I wouldn’t mind getting rid of JJ, I think we have bigger problems (no pun). Those being getting rid of albatross contracts like Zebo’s, Jeffies’, or Q’s. If we were to consider trading Lee, I would only do so if we got rid of one of our truly prohibitive contracts. Big Snacks contract at 5 mill per is shorter and less $ than these other three.

  3. The Lawrence article contradicts itself. He states that Phoenix passed on Lee in the draft because of Lee’s offensive weaknesses. However another supposed D’Antoni favorite Nate Robinson was actually traded from Phoenix to New York in a draft day deal.

    Then he goes on saying that Lee would be packaged with Jerome James in a trade.


    I love when sports writers are purely speculative, which is also called the offseason.

  4. What’s “American Idle?” Is that a show where people vote for the laziest american? So the viewing audiance watches 10 contestants do nothing for an hour, then vote on whose nothing they want to see next week? Who would be the judges? What would they say?

    Simon: Well, your performance lacked anything close to what might be considered effort. But as this is “American Idle”, I suppose that what you should be doing.

    Randy: Yeah Dog you did your thing, which is to not do anything.

    Paula: Touchdown!

    Simon: Paula, is “touchdown” appropriate? That seems to imply effort.

    Paula: Okay, Safety! No, No, turnover on downs. How was that?

    Simon: Dear God, why didnt I save my money from the first show?

  5. Mike D’Antoni gave Stephen Hunter a job and last year, he employed Brian Skinner.

    And yet David Lee has no place in his system?

    Lordy, Lawrence, give me a break.

  6. Mike K. I have my fair share of typos too, but I couldnt let that one go.

    Should the Knicks release Malik Rose, or try to trade his expiring contract for a chip?

    If we don’t retain Fred Jones and Randolph Morris, we will have one roster spot after signing our draft pick. Should we bring in Gerald Green? He should be really cheap and he may be a good fit in the D’antoni offense (fast, nice outside stroke, good size for his position).

    We probably could get him for the smaller portion of the MLE. He couldn’t be any worse than Qyntel Woods. Does anyone remember his lone season with the Knicks, which turned out to be his last in the NBA? Qyntel missed an easy 2 points when he tried to 360 a break away dunk. He didn’t come close. Larry Brown looked like he wanted to die when that happened.

  7. I don’t think Green really ever had a fair shake post-Celtics. It was reported that during last years summer league, before the Garnett trade, Ainge was trying to sell McHale on Green but McHale had already decided that he didn’t like him. The trade went down and guess what… Green never played. Not to say Green was a productive player, but he was a talented scorer when given playing time. I could see him being a Jamal Crawford caliber player. But after Boston he simply never got a chance.

    That’s why I’m thinking there are some other issues that we don’t know about. Maybe he’s difficult to work with in practice. Or has character issues. I don’t know. But 3 teams have discarded him already. Not a good sign. Even if one of the GMs is head-to-head with Isiah as the worst of the past decade.

  8. Matthew, the article I linked above quotes everyone from Doc to Ainge to Green’s first grade teacher saying that he is not a hard-worker and not mature enough to realize the time investment he needs to make to be a legit nba caliber player. In the article, Doc compares him to Marcus Banks – another player with great talent too immature to improve on his limitations.

  9. Just found out that they are playing the lottery live on tv tomorrow all the way here in New Zealand.

    Now i got to cross my fingers and hope for the right ping pong balls.

  10. A few dreams of mine.

    1. Derrick Rose
    2. J.J. Redick and Josh Childress to join the Knicks.
    3. Reopen the Randolph-to-the-Bucks-for-Charlie-V- talks. We will never be able to trade Curry.
    4. Michael Beasley
    5. Not Eric Gordon

  11. I don’t think the Knicks would ever go for Gordon. I think that’s a pipe dream of Chad Ford’s.

    Reddick I can definitely see – he would fit in pretty well.

  12. if JJ Redick can’t play for Orlando, with Howard drawing tons of attention in the middle, why would anyone think he could play anywhere else?

  13. had reddick played antwhere but duke he might not be in the nba. Who will last longer Reddick or Quincy Douby?

    I think you can take a chance on Green because he will come cheap. Just don’t give him JJ money. A system like D’antoni’s might be good for him. MD’s system is to get off a good shot as fast as possible. This might be good for a young player because he can play rather than plan. Green struggled in the half court offense because he had trouble figuring out what to do. MD’s system doesnt give you time to think.

    Look if Mardy Collins and Jerome James are drawing a paycheck next year, there is no reason that GG cant.

  14. Hey you changed the “American Idle” to “American Idol.” Now my joke makes no sense. Gee thanks.

  15. I think there could be interest in Crawford from New Orleans and Orlando. They are good teams, on the cusp, with a good shooter or two, but could use more offense at the 2.

    Also, let’s say NO makes a deal for Craw (Mike James, Butler and their #1), do the Knicks have the right to give this pick to Utah to pay our debt leftover from the Marbury trade? Or do we need to give Utah one of our own picks? I thought we should have done this the last year (Chandler), but never heard any outlets talk about this. Of course Isiah never would have done this as he kept and used every possible asset in an attempt to win. What can I say, he’s a good American- spend spend spend and don’t worry about the future.

  16. I just read through NBA News & Notes for May 16 and saw Thomas B. posed the same question on the owed pick to Utah…

  17. “2. J.J. Redick and Josh Childress to join the Knicks.”

    Redick is softer than a garden tomato that falls off the vine and rots in the sun for a week. Everyone is saying Lee is a 1-dimensional player, but Redick is the true embodiment of a 1-dimensional player. Besides catch-and-shoot situations, he has no ability whatsoever. He is too short to guard 2’s, too slow to guard 1’s, cannot create his own shot, cannot run the point, has a history of back problems, and off the court baggage (DWI). The fact he is still in his rookie contract and is complaining about playing time without even establishing his worthiness suggests he may be a lockerroom cancer too.

    NY may be able to get him cheap, but I do not see him being a savior or a consistent contributor.

    Josh Childress, on the other hand, I would accept with open arms.

  18. There are two players I really want the Knicks to persue through free agency and trades this off-season. Josh Childress and JR Smith. Both players seem to not really have a place on their old teams.

    I think we should sign one with the MLE and trade for the other. I think Denver would give up Smith for Crawford. Both Childress and Smith have had TS% that are very very high the last couple of seasons. Both players would thrive in a D’Antoni system.

    If we could get them both we would have starters at the 2-5 that all have TS% well above the league average.

    So my perfect off-season would consist of getting Rose, signing Childress to the MLE, trading Crawford for Smith and Hunter, moving Randolph and to a lesser extent Jeffries for shorter contracts, and finally buying out Marbury, Richardson and James.

  19. Billy W:
    I agree with Rose, Beasley and Not Gordon.
    Can’t say I want Reddick, though it could be my anti-Duke bias.
    I think Arizona’s Jared Bayliss would be a great fit under D’Antoni if we don’t get Rose.
    As for other draft possibilities: i’m on the fence about OJ Mayo.

  20. I like Childress and Smith a lot, too… but you could argue that it’s smarter to wait a year, see how the cap situation is shaping up, before signing any more big deals. Not sure I’d argue too hard, though.

    p.s. Why would you buy out Marbury? What’s the point? There’s probably a 50% chance you can trade him for something useful

  21. we’re stuck with Marbury for a year unless we buy him out. who would want him? and we certainly don’t want to take on a big salary/years in return.

    hopefully D’Antoni brings in some under-rated European without using draft pick for him…and if we can’t get Rose or Beasley, I wouldn’t mind seeing Love on our squad…

  22. we’re stuck with Marbury for a year unless we buy him out. who would want him?”

    He counts against the cap at full price whether we buy him out or not.

    If he comes back healthy I would be shocked if contending teams don’t want him at the trade deadline, for a 3-4 month run. We could take back a 2010 deal along with a draft pick or young player. It’s an expensive way to do business but it’s not my money… and Knicks need to use their competitive advantage of being able to afford expensive deals (smart ones, that is)

  23. If the Knicks were to target anyone in ORL, I would hope it would be Carlos Arroyo rather than Redick. I agree with the post above that he is one dimensional. Anyone remember all the dialogue wasted on comparing Redick to Adam Morrison – neither has panned out. If not mistaken, Arroyo is unrestricted this offseason.

  24. Has anyone seen enough of Orlando to offer an opinion on whether Redick can become a spot shooter like Kerr, Kapono, etc. or is the rest of his game so deficient it doesn’t matter?

  25. IMO Arroy has demonstrated pretty convincingly that he is not a rotation player in the NBA.

    Redick would have trouble guarding a chair, but in the right situation I guess he could be a Kapono-like role player. Not sure why the Knicks would be interested.

  26. Redick reminds me of Bobby Hurley. One dimensional, undersized, Cancer (the zodiac sign not cancer like Derrick Coleman), All-American, out of the NBA in fewer than five years, ect..

    Besides, haven’t the Knicks already cornered the market on flawed points? Steph is only effective when he is the focal point of the offense. Nate is only effective when his shots are going in. Mardy is only effective when he is on the bench. Now you want to add Redick to that mess. I’d trade them all for just one Jose Calderon.

  27. Does the presence of David Lee make Kevin Love superflous? I admit Love has a more polished offensive game, but they play the same position. Of course, having a LOVE-LEE frontcourt would be funny.

    I heard about all of Love’s workouts, but I saw the same about Charlie V three years ago. CV is actually a good comparison, though Love probably has more range on the jumper. I worry about guys like Love because they lack the size to bang with PFs but they also lack the speed to deal with SFs. Then agian, I thought Tranjan Langdon would be an All-Star. Shows what I know.

  28. I think Love will be a good player, but don’t expect him to ever be as good as Lee, or even Zach Randolph. As others have said, K-Lo just isn’t designed, physically, to be a decent defender.

    Even for those who think Lee is worse on D than I do, at least he can jump, and is actually 6’9.

    If Milwaukee ever wants to take on Zach, I have a feeling Charlie V. will be coming our way (along with Gadzuric, Simmons or both). Villaneuva is also a problem on D, but he can shoot, and is so tall (6’11) that he sets up some matchup problems…

  29. I would take a chance on JR Smith and Childress, although neither are the solutions to our long term problems. And won’t that be a problem to have Nate and Smith on the same team? And where do you play Childress? He doesn’t shoot well enough to be a starting 2 and he sort of replicates Chandler/Balkman at the 3. I’d rather see if either Chandler or Balkman pan out until bronbron comes to town. How is Love defensively? Does anyone know? If he can play D, I would like him better than Lee, but does he really fit into a D’Antoni system? I also like Rose or Bayless, or even the kid from Texas, but we still need a real 2 guard who can guard people. Westbrook would be a good prospect for that. I don’t even hate eric gordon- he already seems better than Crawford! We could do real well trading Steph at the deadline to someone (like the Heat this year) that just falls out of playoff contention. Who will take Curry? *crickets*

  30. Did you guys hear about philly wanting Z-Bo? Maybe we can get rid of him for their 1st rounder and pick up a Budinger or Alexander as a second pick. They are both very talented. Alexander is a competitor and very athletic and might thrive in MD offense the only problem with Budinger might be his motor but very talented.

  31. -I like Love, but he looked like an elephant in a china shop against Memphis. I know his outlet passing is otherworldly, but, as Ess-Dog asked, does he really fit in on a D’Antoni team? (Assuming D’Antoni wants to run and attack.) If he becomes a good man defender in the post maybe he can be a Kurt Thomas-type.

    -Gerald Green could be a good low risk / high reward signing, and if he’s going to fit in anywhere it’s likely with D’Antoni. His maturity, work ethic, etc. is a huge concern, I wonder what he’s been doing with his downtime since getting cut by Houston??? Hopefully working hard.

    -Do we really want to blow our cap space on… JR Smith and Josh Childress??? I think both are decent players, and maybe if they somehow fall to something like 1 year $3 mill with a player option for a second year… I just have a feeling both are looking for a long-term deal at around 7-8 mill per.

    -Redick has shot the 3 well in limited minutes for Orlando, if he becomes an adequate defender maybe he can be a useful 9th or 10th man. Did Orlando pick up his option for next season?

    -I think there will be interest in Crawford. Orlando could be a possibility, although there’s speculation they’ll go after Maggette. NOLA also seems like they might have interest, but they don’t have much to offer outside of their core other than contracts with 2 years left. Jamal Crawford for Julian Wright might be a steal for the Knicks.
    I also wonder what D’Antoni / Walsh think of Crawford. In some respects I think it’s an interesting test of how this rebuilding is going to go. Crawford could be a decent player, but there’s got to be a team that sees Crawford as a slick combo guard who scored 20 ppg and not a career 40% shooter and 34.5% 3P shooter. Hopefully the Knicks are no longer that team, and they move him for great value.

    -I think Randolph might be tradeable, we’ll have to see. What do the Sixers have to offer? They’re only on the hook for $34 mill next season (without resigning anyone, notably AI2), maybe a sign-and-trade for a scrub? They may be in a position to take a run at an Elton Brand or Antawn Jamison, but maybe if that fails they’d settle for Zack. I sort of assume the Bucks are out of the picture having hired the Piston’s assitant GM and Scott Skiles. Maybe the Knicks can get an ugly deal like Larry Hughes, Ben Wallace (both at least shorter), Kenyon, or Nene + something or an assortment of worthless players making 4-7 mill per that saves them some caproom.

  32. “JR Smith and Josh Childress??? I think both are decent players, and maybe if they somehow fall to something like 1 year $3 mill with a player option for a second year… I just have a feeling both are looking for a long-term deal at around 7-8 mill per.”

    Both are restricted FAs, meaning their teams can match any offer, so unless there’s a sign-and-trade, they’ll get stuck playing for the mid-level (or less).

    Childress will never be a superstar but is a really nice player. Of players who played more than 40 games, he was 2nd in the league in TS%… also a great rebounder for a guard, and decent defender.

    Smith has more holes in his game, but he’s already a big-time scorer and only 22… I expect he could be among NBA scoring leaders in a few years, but won’t contribute much else.

    Either is a bargain at the mid-level — but it might be a better long-term strategy to just stay put, see if Balkman really is an elite defender & rebounder, if Chandler can develop into a real player, etc.

    Atlanta tried recruiting Curry when he was a FA. Billy Knight is gone now, but it’s not inconceivable that someone there still likes him, and would be open to a sign n trade for Childress.

    FWIW, Atlanta is also rumored to be listening to sign n trade offers for Josh Smith (who’s due a big extension). Too many blow-ups with coaches & supposed immaturity, plus they would still have Horford and Marvin Williams at the forward spots (and Childress, if they keep him).

    I don’t see New York having anything to offer in exchange, unless Atlanta wants something like Curry and the #5 pick… but I don’t think the Hawks would go for that. Assuming they ever hire a GM.

  33. There’s no point in trading Zach for Kenyon Martin, whose contract is equally long and bad.

    Walsh and the fans can dare to dream for another year, but Zach for Hughes or Wallace (or something along those lines) is probably the best we can hope for. A straight salary dump. We’d probably buy out Hughes right away — maybe even Wallace.

  34. I think that JR Smith will be an all-star in the next three years. He has put up numbers per minute very similar to Kevin Martin.

    Over the last two years per 36 minutes:
    20.7 pts 4.4 rebs 2.2 asts 61.4% TS% 38.1% 3pt%
    23.4 pts 4.4 rebs 2.1 asts 61.8% TS% 40.2% 3pt%
    20.0 pts 3.5 rebs 2.2 asts 58.5% TS% 39.0% 3pt%
    23.0 pts 3.9 rebs 3.2 asts 60.3% TS% 40.3% 3pt%

    Martin is two years older and is a worse defender. JR Smith is at least an average defensive player and actually made the nuggets slightly better defensively this year. He does not fit with Iverson who needs a combo guard next to him so he is expendable for the nuggets.

    As for Childress he is a solid shooter shooting almost 37% from three this year and 36% for his career. He has an amazing TS% and is a good defender. He would be perfect as our starting three and would allow D’Antoni to move Balkman inside to PF to back up Lee and bring energy and defense off the bench while minimizing Balkman’s shortcomings by removing him from the perimeter.

    Both players would be bargins at the MLE and I think both are realistic.

  35. I’d be shocked if Denver or Atlanta doesn’t match an MLE offer… I guess Atlanta’s management is so weird (nonexistent, at this point) that it would shock me less, but still.

  36. You should add turnovers per 36 to that

    07 1.7
    08 2.1

    07 2.1
    08 2.8

    2.8 is a big number for wing shooter. I also think its wierd he shot 71@ on his free throws this year after shooting 82 last year. Overall, I think Smith is a solid player and would be an upgrade on any of our guards, but Martin is and always will be much better.

    If we could get Childress for the MLE we should do it, He is a very good player, and taking him from Atlanta would help us close the gap on the Hawks. :-) Don’t think it will happen though.

  37. We could do a sign and trade if Childress wants to leave atlanta: Curry for Childress straight up. That could make sense for both teams, assuming the hawks keep Josh Smith which I believe they will.
    I like JR Smith’s offensive game, but a) can he really guard the better 2 guards in the game? and b) can’t we just draft eric gordon and get the same thing younger and cheaper?
    Try to imagine a lineup of: Nate, JR Smith, Childress, Balkman, and Jeffries. That’s got the be the skinniest lineup possible. Or say we draft the kid from Texas for nate at pg… that would be a slight lineup!

  38. “-Do we really want to blow our cap space on… JR Smith and Josh Childress??? I think both are decent players, and maybe if they somehow fall to something like 1 year $3 mill with a player option for a second year… I just have a feeling both are looking for a long-term deal at around 7-8 mill per.”

    After signing Jerome James and Jared Jeffries, I’ll welcome either of these two for the MLE. Shooting guards that can shoot efficiently?

  39. Because Isiah damaged the team doesn’t mean we should follow his mistakes. The past doesn’t equal the future. No trades for shooters. We must win off the court before we can win on the court.

  40. “-I like Love, but he looked like an elephant in a china shop against Memphis. I know his outlet passing is otherworldly, but, as Ess-Dog asked, does he really fit in on a D’Antoni team? (Assuming D’Antoni wants to run and attack.) If he becomes a good man defender in the post maybe he can be a Kurt Thomas-type.”

    If you want to run, you need rebounding and outlet passing…so, yeah, Love does fit in. I also hear that he is working out, getting much stronger, more definition….

  41. I like Childress alot, but lets think about how many swingmen we would have on the team.


    I think five wings may be too many. Worse yet, the best shooter in the group is Chandler. And lets face it, all we know for sure is that Chandler performed well during the “play out the string” portion of the season. Four wings that cant shoot does not seem to fit D’antoni’s system.

    Don’t drink the Childress Kool-Aid. He plays well because he has Smith and Johnson around to keep defenses honest. He has decent shooting percentages because his FGA numbers are below average. He picks his spots.
    I would move Randolph for Martin and a pick because it could be addition by subtraction ala Portland. Plus we need to stockpile picks for the rebuilding process. Get a Donte Green at 20, a wing with offensive skills. That would be better than Childress far cheaper and preserves roster flexability.

    I am not a fan of the MLE. In the wrong hands, (from an undisclosed location in Europe, Isiah Thomas cringes) the MLE can saddle your team with an overpaid marginal player for five years. Think about it, only a marginal player would take the entire MLE. If you thought you could make more you would take a 2-3 year deal, then either hit the FA market, or get your team to sign you after your “Bird” rights vest. A guy takes the entire MLE when he knows he could never do better. See Burger King James, Jeffries, Vlad Rad, Tim Thomas. On the other hand is Deshawn Stevenson, who took fewer dollars to put himself in position for a big pay off later. Long story short, dont throw the MLE at Childress.

  42. so, for anyone who needs refreshing on how to watch and cheer for the lottery, the first thing you need is a list of the teams in reverse order of record:


    as they turn over the cards, you need to root for every team below us to come up in order (Warriors, then Blazers, etc). any team skipped is a top 3 spot gone. after the Clippers, you need to burst a blood vessel in your head hoping that the Grizzlies are the next one shown, that means we would have jumped to the top 3.

    D’Antoni is representing NY tonight. LET’S GO KNICKS!

  43. Wow– I’ve never seen Jon excited before. (A side of him I hope to see much more of during the Donnie Walsh years…)

    I’m overseas right now. Does anyone know if the ceremony will be broadcast on line?

  44. Childress is not a bad outsde shooter. He has a career average of 36% fom 3pt. That is better than Chandler, Crawford, Q Rich and Marbury. It is also better than Kobe, LeBron and Chris Paul. I am not comparing him to any of them of course, I am just showing you that Childress’s outside shooting is unjustly maligned.

    Also since when is picking your spots a bad thing. A well run offense has only people picking their spots and very few shots being forced up. I think players like Lee and Childress that contibute to the offense efficiently should be applauded not criicized for not throwing up poor shots.

    Also I think Josh Smith is a terrible offensve player. He has never had a TS% at even the league average, and has every single year been acually less efficient than Crawford. He also insists on shooting 1.4 three pointers per 36 minutes despite having a career 3pt% of 26.3%. To put that in perspective Jeffries has a career 3pt% of 25.3%. Johnson on the othe hand is a high usage but overall averagely efficient offensive player. I do not think Childress needs Johnson and Smith to be effective.

    I think a good offense needs three medium usage players and two high usage ones. Childress and Lee are both medium usage and extremely efficient.

    We would then need higher usage players at the two and five which we have in cCrawford, who I would move if we got Smith, and Curry, who I believe D’Antoni likes and would be hard to move anyway.

    That just leaves the PG position whch I think should always be medium efficiency because ball dominating PG guards tend to stagnate the offense, and I hope gets filled with Rose.

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