NY Daily News: Rookie Obi Toppin already wowing his Knicks teammates with his athleticism, but defense needs work

From Stefan Bondy:

Some players like to get loose with a few jumpers. Maybe some lay-ups. Get a feel for the rim and the muscles.

Then there’s Obi Toppin.

“He comes in the gym 8 in the morning and his first shot is a between-the-legs dunk,” Kevin Knox said. “His athleticism is just crazy.”

There are few certainties with rookies in the NBA, but this much can be assured about Toppin: athletically, he’s a monster. The 22-year-old power forward showed up to Knicks training camp and set a goal of breaking the conditioning test records.

First goal was achieved. We’re envisioning a Toppin-Zion final in the Slam Dunk contest.

“When I go out there I try my best to have the highest score — I always ask what the highest score is so I can beat it,” Toppin, the eighth overall pick, said Thursday. “And I believe I’m the highest person in the conditioning test.”

Toppin has the potential to electrify the Garden, and it’s a shame there won’t be fans to appreciate his high-flying act. But New York’s plan is to keep Toppin well after the vaccine will allow for a full MSG, and he’s stepping into a promising situation in Year 1 with a demanding coach and a roster that should provide him plenty of opportunities.

I mean, it’s nice to hear, I guess, but honestly, doesn’t it sort of sound like those “best shape of his life” stories, just about a rookie? Seems odd.

And since we have to have all polls all the time, let’s do some Rookie of the Year predictions, using just the guys who have betting odds right now.

Who do you think will win NBA Rookie of the Year?

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410 thoughts to “NY Daily News: Rookie Obi Toppin already wowing his Knicks teammates with his athleticism, but defense needs work”

  1. at some point ben kenobi is supposed to be getting his own limited series…I think i read it’s gonna be something like kung fu with david carradine…hopefully it’s not all on tatooine… ugliest planet in the galaxy…

    sure enough the mandalorian delivered the goods as promised in episodes 12 and 13 with two toon favorites…also did a tease on thrawn… who knows – maybe we’ll even get to see what’s happened with ezra…

    obi-1, may the force be with you this season…

  2. I dont know how to answer the poll. I’d like to pick Quickley to show my cluelessness, but he’s not there.

    The description of Toppin unfortunately reminds me of Kenny “sky” Walker. I don’t know how they compare stats wise, but Walker was a great dunker who was drafted relatively high, but didn’t really make it as a starter.

  3. On second thought, I voted for Wiseman. He’s the most NBA ready of the top picks and he will get plenty of playing time at Golden State.

  4. Alan: So am I the only non-guitarist on Knickerblogger Dot Net?

    I am on the non-musician side of things! :P There was a time when i tried it, was 23, and even took classes… then the teacher said this “you know, even the best guitarrists in the world practice every day for a few hours, three or four”… then i thought to myself “3 to 4 hours of my life? daily?? is this guy mad?” and never came back! :D

    Brian Cronin: Gotta love it when players take demonstrably false positions and somehow don’t really get called on it (at least not to their faces).

    That guy doesn’t know when to talk and when to shut up. It was the same with Dame’s series winning 3 pointer… the guy kept complaining it was good defense… who cares? the ball went in, own it!

  5. Although i agree with KFNINJ on Wiseman, i voted for Toppin. It would be good to have the rookie of the year, as that could come in handy for next year’s trade season, and if not at least it means he did good… which we can’t say about our present crop of lottery picks.

  6. Hey Knick Fan Not In NJ, how’s life there in China? I always love to know how’s life in other countries! :) Hope you’re good and mingling well with the chinese! ;)

  7. Hi Cybersoze, overall life is good here. My new job is good so far and although life is a little complicated sometimes, I’m getting to know the city. As far as COVID goes, it’s basically non-existent here. Supposedly, there were something like 35 cases total in this city, which has a population of something like four million and they were a long time ago. Once we got out of quarantine, life was normal, which is nice and can’t be taken for granted nowadays. There’s a lot of bureaucracy sometimes, but I was expecting that. I hope it teaches me patience.

    Thanks for asking. .

  8. There r4ally isn’t a favorite. I voted for Obi just because. And ROY is meaningless anyway.

    I am liking the fact that Obi is going to push guys physically/conditioning-wise. Not that it means all that much but its better than coming in out of shape.

    I’m a bit worried about how Mitch will do under the new regime. He seems so mercurial that I wonder if Thibs and Payne will make the mistake of triggering him. Remember, he’s a guy that left college in the middle of the night and never returned.

  9. Z-Man, Macri and Berman talked about Mitch and Thibs on Macri’s podcast this week. Berman thinks there’s a good chance Noel starts at the 5, at least early in the season, and they’re not sure on whether that’s an attempt to further motivate Mitch to improve the many flaws in his game (especially on defense) or if Thibs is less in love with Mitch than we would have expected. But all the reports during the coaching search were that Mitch was one of the primary reasons (beyond the job itself) that Thibs wanted to come here, so… I dunno.

  10. Wiseman has a clear path with plenty of playing time and talent, a good team around him, and a ready-made Warriors return to relevance narrative.

    This Toppin talk does seem kind of silly but you now what, I kind of like it. Rather have them talk about it than not.

    He does seem to be a guy who gets off the ground quicker than others.

  11. Yeah, just nothing to do right now but speculate, worry, hope, etc.

    Meanwhile, this set of highlights re: Rivers goinng for 41 in the bubble is encouraging. He has a very polished and diverse offensive skillset. His presser made it hard not to root for him. And I really liked his dad as a Knicks player.

    He’s been playing behind CP3, Russ, Harden, Lou Williams, etc. Maybe he seizes the opportunity here and either sticks or becomes a trade asset at the deadline. The 2-year of team option seems smart….

  12. I don’t get it with Rivers. I know he has made a bunch of money already but the team options kind of cap the value that having a bigger role might generate. Strange way to bet on yourself.

  13. So am I the only non-guitarist on Knickerblogger Dot Net?

    a guitar is just an abacus for people who can’t do real math in their head. i don’t even watch the games.

  14. I haven’t really followed him and always thought of him as a scrub who rode his father’s coattails. But who knows? Maybe he is a late bloomer who just needed a situation with no one in front of him. Or maybe he just sucks.

  15. I think Rivers came into the league with a bigger reputation than his skill (due to his name) and was given that one ridiculous contract by his father who at the time seemed to be having a lot of trouble finding role players to go with his great core. A few times I thought he might be OK or at least be getting better. There was a period where CP3 was out and he was given the keys and the team did not totally collapse. But if you look at him overall, I think he’s pretty much a mediocre backup. Maybe his reputation will stick and we can flip him for a 2nd rounder if someone like Quickley or Frank breaks out.

  16. Z-man:
    I haven’t really followed him and always thought of him as a scrub who rode his father’s coattails. But who knows? Maybe he is a late bloomer who just needed a situation with no one in front of him. Or maybe he just sucks.

    The only deal he could find was a $5M deal with us. I think it’s safe to say he sucks and the rest of the league finally realized that.

  17. Ok, so what’s our best Harden package? I can’t imagine Leon won’t put one together. Obviously, RJ is on the table, but what about Toppin or Mitch? And our 2021 first? Maybe RJ/Frank and three unprotected firsts get it done. Probably not. I doubt Rivers wants to play with him again though lol.

  18. I think a Harden package is moot. He wants to win a ring. If you could magically put Harden on this current roster without giving up anything of value (say, Houston for some insane reason agrees to a Harden-for-Randle-and-Iggy trade), would we be a title contender? Almost certainly not. So it has to be a team like the Nets (assuming they can satisfy Houston), the Sixers (assuming they’re willing to cut bait on Simmons) or the Celtics (assuming Stevens wouldn’t have a coronary when Ainge told him). He’d just refuse to come here.

  19. From today’s Macri newsletter:

    I heard recently that Dennis Smith Jr has looked “incredible” in practice, and has been “blowing people away” with his level of play in the pre-scrimmage portion of camp. Even if true, counting on someone who was in the second percentile league-wide last season when it came to directing an offense seems a bit too optimistic, even for me.

    You heard it here, folks, DSJ has officially reached Best Shape of His Life talk! It’s preseason! (And even Macri’s not drinking the Kool Aid on this.)

  20. It sounds like they may still want to trade DSjr. Personally, I’d still give him a chance because he has talent, but if you have to give up on either DSJr or Frank first, I’d give up on DSJr first. I think Frank is more is likely to reach whatever his peak might be and DSjr is more likely to go down in flames.

  21. I voted for Wiseman, though I think Obi will be in the running and him winning wouldn’t shock me at all. I just think Wiseman will be on a good team and his role will be prominent enough to get noticed, but limited enough that his efficiency stats will be good.

    I definitely think it’ll come down to one of those two. They’re both NBA ready and have a clear path to a lot of playing time. The guards (Edwards/Ball/Hayes/Haliburton) are probably looking at the typical NBA learning curve for young guards and Okongwu is behind Collins and Capela. I don’t think anyone else will be productive enough to be in the running.

  22. I’m a little surprised to see such overwhelming support for Obi in the poll given that it seemed like the board was generally down on the pick. He may very well be the most NBA-ready, but Rookie of the Year comes down in significant part to the size of the opportunity the player is given, and unless Randle is traded (and I think that ship has pretty much sailed until the deadline at the soonest) the frontcourt looks awfully crowded. Figuring out how to get Obi to even 20+ minutes a game out of the gate is not trivial and probably involves either cutting Randle’s minutes way, way back (I’m not opposed but I think the org. still sees him as possibly their best player…and terrifyingly they may not be that far from correct) or playing Obi in some extremely ugly lineups (e.g. where he’s playing the 3 with both Randle and one of the Cs on the floor).

    I voted for LaMelo. His advanced stats are a safe bet to be extremely ugly and people here will almost certainly mock the pick if he wins but he’s going to have the ball in his hands a lot, shoot way more than he should, and put up decent counting stats and get the most attention. In a weak class that might be enough. I could also easily see this being like the year where Malcolm Brogdon won for being a solid backup PG on a decent team. If the poll had a “field” option that would also be a decent shout I think.

  23. I could see a Harden trade if we already had another star and were deep enough to give up some assets and still have a good supporting cast, but not the team we have now.

  24. I think Obi could get it even if he starts off on the bench.

    I think he’ll be able to put up a lot of points pretty quickly and he’ll have some sick highlights. Never undestimate the importance of highlights in a ROY candidate!

    Its a shame we don’t have fans in the arenas. I mean, we shouldn’t have fans but still. Sucks because I just feel like Obi is gonna have his moments where he’s electric and he’s the exact type of player that could get the crowd going with his dunks and athletic feats.

  25. I could see a Harden trade if we already had another star and were deep enough to give up some assets and still have a good supporting cast, but not the team we have now.

    Yeah, this was the point I neglected to make earlier. It’s not just that the team wouldn’t be good enough if we could basically get Harden for free, it’s that the package necessary to get Harden would leave the roster looking far more barren, in both the present and future, than the one Melo joined in 2011.

  26. So am I the only non-guitarist on Knickerblogger Dot Net?

    On my journey from the Midwest to NYC, I had a short layover in Pittsburgh. Bought a guitar and small amp in McKees Rocks, PA one Friday night (still remember the sales guy’s “What brings you out to the Rocks” lol). Goofed around with it a bit, probably hit my peak about four years later in DC when I was drunkenly able to figure out most, including the good parts, of REM’s The Flowers of Guatemala and play along. Guitar stayed with me maybe three more years but is long gone. Still on Friday nights when I got the headphones and the YouTube 90s/00s alternative live clips on and have had a couple cocktails I say to myself “I’m going to get a guitar again and take advantage of the Internet and play this song,” but it’ll probably never happen. Plus it will take away the time I spend posting bullshit on the internet lol.

    The other musical related thing I think about a lot is getting a turntable again and albums again. I’ve come close a couple times, but I’ve lived in an apartment in the city forever and when you do that ideas like that run aground on the “It’s going to take up a lot of space and you might move again in a year” rocks. Still could see this one happening.

  27. Alan:
    Z-Man, Macri and Berman talked about Mitch and Thibs on Macri’s podcast this week. Berman thinks there’s a good chance Noel starts at the 5, at least early in the season, and they’re not sure on whether that’s an attempt to further motivate Mitch to improve the many flaws in his game (especially on defense) or if Thibs is less in love with Mitch than we would have expected. But all the reports during the coaching search were that Mitch was one of the primary reasons (beyond the job itself) that Thibs wanted to come here, so… I dunno.

    Thibs already had Mitch with Van Gundy on the Team USA select in 2019 and all indications are that it was a disaster.

  28. NBA won’t test for marijuana this year. That’s something.

    “Thibs already had Mitch with Van Gundy on the Team USA select in 2019 and all indications are that it was a disaster.”

    Didn’t know that. How was it a disaster? Feels like something that should have been discussed at some point.

  29. Thibs didn’t coach on that team, E. The story is that Mitch didn’t want to really play for the Selects, reluctantly agreed to go, and used a minor injury as an excuse to bail. And since Thibs and JVG are tight, he has heard all about it.

    Mitch is definitely mercurial. The hope is that he just looks so amazing in practices and games that Thibs is able to put any preconceptions behind him quickly.

  30. I’m against a Harden trade, but I think he would ultimately be ok with coming to a team with a good coach and front office in a major market with more than enough cap space for another star. Harden and Giannis? The rest of the roster spots are fungible. And you sure as shit have to think Rose will try for it.

  31. I said last week to not be shocked if Noel starts. Obviously Mitch has more natural talent, more upside, and can be wildly impactful some nights. But he’s a bit of a flake, is very green on both sides of the ball, and gets into foul trouble all the time. If you are trying to win games right out of the gate, Noel probably makes more sense as the more experienced player and less likely to make mistakes. In fact, if Mitch wasn’t such an untouchable type player and considered a lock to be the future C, I think Noel would almost certainly start. It’s on Mitch to come to camp and show he’s a more mature person and player.

  32. Opening night. The starting front court of Noel and Randle plays 28 and 40 minutes respectively with Mitch getting 12 minutes and Obi 16. How many comments does the next day’s Knickerblogger thread have?

  33. But he’s a bit of a flake, is very green on both sides of the ball, and gets into foul trouble all the time.

    this all true about mitch. it is also all true about nerlens. despite heading into his 7th yr. since mitch has entered the league their foul rates per 100 have been identical. mitch does great things but he is not a smart player. nerlens does good things but he is not a smart player. it would be batshit crazy to start him over mitch. so it will happen.

  34. thenamestsam:
    Opening night. The starting front court of Noel and Randle plays 28 and 40 minutes respectively with Mitch getting 12 minutes and Obi 16. How many comments does the next day’s Knickerblogger thread have?

    Zero. We’d all give up on this franchise and go follow Doncic on Mavsblogger.

    Also, my one musical talent is driving people to leave the room during karaoke.

  35. I’m going to be furious if we don’t start Mitch. He doesn’t seem like the kind of guy who will respond well to a Thibs-esque “tough love” approach, and if you can’t work with him on his weaknesses while still starting him you’re failing as a coaching staff. We need to make a decision about his contract soon so data collection is crucial. If he fouls out, cool, that’s why we have Noel.

    I would strongly prefer Toppin start as well for both development and fit reasons (the latter is a lot more tenuous and requires buying Toppin’s 3PT shot, but it’s not like there are radically better options in that regard anyway), but I’ll begrudgingly accept it if they feel the need to start Randle to begin the season as long as Toppin gets plenty of time off the bench. Seeing as how the guy is older than Luka Doncic, we should be bringing him along sooner rather later.

    As of now, the most coherent starting lineup to me is Payton-Bullock-Burks-Toppin-Mitch. Defensively that is…not good, and offensively it might struggle due to lack of a high usage wing. Still, it should more or less resemble an NBA offense and, well, lots of teaching opportunities for Thibs on defense!

  36. Whether or not that starting lineup is the best that can be done, it’s the worst starting lineup in the NBA and second-worst isn’t really even that close. We should all be steeling ourselves for that. Payton-Bullock-Burks-Toppin-Mitch as starters is a dreadful team.

  37. ptmilo:
    But he’s a bit of a flake, is very green on both sides of the ball, and gets into foul trouble all the time.
    this all true about mitch.it is also alltrue about nerlens. despite heading into his 7th yr.since mitch has entered the league their foul rates per 100 have been identical.mitch does great things but he is not a smart player. nerlens does good things but he is not a smart player.it would be batshit crazy to start him over mitch.so it will happen.

    Nerlens has been raw and immature for a long time. That’s why he screwed up a chance for a very good deal once and has moved on a few times, but there’s green and immature and there’s GREEN, immature and a probable flake. Maybe Nerlens isn’t the ideal mentor for Mitch like Taj probably was and maybe Mitch will start, but imo Nerlens is more ready than Mitch for at least the first month or two unless Mitch shows up a more polished professional player.

    It’s not an accident Thibs called out Mitch a little recently. He is slowly accumulating a reputation for being a little flakey and not working hard enough by going to college and then dropping out, going to the combine and then dropping out, bailing on the Select team, and then not sticking around for the team’s bubble workouts recently. There’s always a story, but maybe he’s just a flake and doesn’t have the work ethic Thibs is looking for.

    .

  38. Wiseman has a clear path with plenty of playing time and talent, a good team around him, and a ready-made Warriors return to relevance narrative.

    The Warriors aren’t making the playoffs. MVP Steph stopped playing basketball in 2016, he’s 32 now and he’s probably going to get hurt again this year. He’ll probably stil be very good when he plays, but Draymond is cooked or doesn’t care and they don’t have enough talent on the roster.

  39. It’s barely relevant because Barrett is a lock to start, even though I think of all of our interesting young players (all 3 of them) you can make the best case for his development being best served by coming off the bench.

    My money would be on Payton-Barrett-Burks-Randle-Mitch opening night.

  40. If Wiseman is AD 2.0, the Warriors will be a mid seed. Otherwise, betting on 72 games of World-Beater Steph — take the under.

    Remember when the Dubs had Seth Curry but couldn’t figure out how to sub him into the game? Bob Myers isn’t as smart as he’s looked.

  41. E:
    Whether or not that starting lineup is the best that can be done, it’s the worst starting lineup in the NBA and second-worst isn’t really even that close.We should all be steeling ourselves for that.Payton-Bullock-Burks-Toppin-Mitch as starters is a dreadful team.

    Off the top of my head, Cleveland, Chicago, and Sacramento all have similarly terrible starting lineups. So does Detroit if Blake Griffin can’t stay healthy. And I have no idea who’s still on OKC at this point.

  42. E: Whether or not that starting lineup is the best that can be done, it’s the worst starting lineup in the NBA and second-worst isn’t really even that close. We should all be steeling ourselves for that. Payton-Bullock-Burks-Toppin-Mitch as starters is a dreadful team.

    Seeing it typed out like that really brought home for me just how bad the top-level talent is on this team. I think it’s unanimous (or close?) that Mitch is the best player on this team and if he’s not the worst best player in the league it’s got to be awfully close. But the really scary question is who is the 2nd best player on this team? There isn’t even a Marcus Morris this year. Is our 2nd best player Elfrid Payton?

  43. thenamestsam: Seeing it typed out like that really brought home for me just how bad the top-level talent is on this team. I think it’s unanimous (or close?) that Mitch is the best player on this team and if he’s not the worst best player in the league it’s got to be awfully close. But the really scary question is who is the 2nd best player on this team? There isn’t even a Marcus Morris this year. Is our 2nd best player Elfrid Payton?

    Second best player is Julius Randle. To what extent he’s still on the team is up in the air. A healthy Bullock can replicate the value Morris gave us last year, which is probably overrated because of his flashy 3p%.

    I don’t think Burks puts up his numbers from last year, but he’s another candidate to replace Morris.

  44. thenamestsam: Seeing it typed out like that really brought home for me just how bad the top-level talent is on this team. I think it’s unanimous (or close?) that Mitch is the best player on this team and if he’s not the worst best player in the league it’s got to be awfully close. But the really scary question is who is the 2nd best player on this team? There isn’t even a Marcus Morris this year. Is our 2nd best player Elfrid Payton?

    Well, I would take Mitch over old, broken down Kevin Love in Cleveland and old, broken down Blake Griffin in Detroit. After that I guess you’re looking at Zach Lavine in Chicago or Shai in OKC.

  45. Here’s the thing. We don’t really know for sure how good or how bad more than half the players on this team are. They are young and haven’t played a serious game in 9 months. On paper, they suck, but the margin for error is pretty huge. For all we know, RJ fixed his broken shot, Obi is Zion 2.0, Frank is Jimmy Butler-esque, DSjr is “incredible” and “blows people away,” etc. etc.

    We will know a lot more 1 week and a few hours from today.

  46. Early Bird: Second best player is Julius Randle. To what extent he’s still on the team is up in the air. A healthy Bullock can replicate the value Morris gave us last year, which is probably overrated because of his flashy 3p%.

    I don’t think Burks puts up his numbers from last year, but he’s another candidate to replace Morris.

    Morris may have been propped up by unsustainable 3-point shooting, but that shooting still happened, you know what I mean? He was legitimately very good for us offensively last year; .582 TS% on >24% usage is nothing to sniff at. Bullock has never had a USG >16% in his career. Burks is the one who maybe has it in him offensively based on #s last year, but he’s never had another season like that and he’s a legitimate sieve defensively. I agree Randle is probably capable of being the 2nd best player if he can get back to what he was prior to last year, but I’m not sure how that fits in with a significant role for Obi. It’s a little bleak.

  47. I suppose what I’m saying is that we have a week left to hope for the best outcome for all the young players before reality kicks in. We can also hope that the vets all play to the best years on the back of their basketball card. That is kind of Thibs & Co.’s job, right? To expose the best selves of everyone on our roster?

  48. thenamestsam: Morris may have been propped up by unsustainable 3-point shooting, but that shooting still happened, you know what I mean? He was legitimately very good for us offensively last year; .582 TS% on >24% usage is nothing to sniff at. Bullock has never had a USG >16% in his career. Burks is the one who maybe has it in him offensively based on #s last year, but he’s never had another season like that and he’s a legitimate sieve defensively. I agree Randle is probably capable of being the 2nd best player if he can get back to what he was prior to last year, but I’m not sure how that fits in with a significant role for Obi. It’s a little bleak.

    Morris did have unsustainable numbers, but that’s not what I’m talking about. His BPM, WS, vorp were not reflective of a player having a huge impact. And while some people don’t believe in those numbers they are generally pretty good at capturing offensive value, which is where you’d expect to see Morris’s shooting.

    Both Bullock and Burks have had better or similar years than Morris had last year for us.

    Regardless, if we start Burks & Bullock over RJ (and I”m not saying we should) then we’ll be immediately better than last year by virtue of not playing one of the worst performing players 1700 minutes. Between RJ, DSJr, & Knox we gave 20% of our minutes to the worst 3 players in the league.

    Randle is our 2nd best, maybe best, player regardless of whether he bounces back. Our offense was crap without him despite how ugly he plays.

  49. Wow, that Golden State projection. Didn’t realize how bad they were going to be.

    Edit: Seeing 36.5 as their over/under. Doesn’t seem crazy. That might put them in the playoffs.

    I like the Pelicans more than the Warriors though

  50. I really like the Knicks having very athletic bigs.
    I remember the days when athleticism wasn’t really a strong suit.
    Guys who can fly and leap out of the gym…only good things come from folks like that.
    But we are still weak at point.

  51. Owen:
    Wow, that Golden State projection. Didn’t realize how bad they were going to be.

    Edit: Seeing 36.5 as their over/under. Doesn’t seem crazy. That might put them in the playoffs.

    I like the Pelicans more than the Warriors though

    IDK, how good do people think Wiseman will be? He’s a rookie, but put up fantastic numbers in all 3 of his college games. He definitely looked like a world class athlete, even if its hard to tell against 2 mid-majors.

    What about Oubre? I really don’t know much about him.

  52. Even if Steph and Draymond are washed, them a strong year from Wiseman and a reasonable year from Oubre could be enough to squeak into the playoffs. The Warriors are definitely not contenders, but I’m not quite willing to write them off as not being able to be the 7 or 8 seed.

  53. Early Bird: Both Bullock and Burks have had better or similar years than Morris had last year for us.

    But that’s mainly because Morris’ top line #s were dragged down by a big negative on defense. I tend to use the OBPM #s and then mix in more of a rolling average of a few years of DBPM (with a bit of subjective flavoring) because I think the defensive box score #s are a lot squishier. Neither Burks nor Bullock has had a season where they really approached Morris’ offensive contributions from last season (speaking just about his time with us).

    Between RJ, DSJr, & Knox we gave 20% of our minutes to the worst 3 players in the league.

    RJ is clearly going to play a ton again (I would be shocked if he doesn’t lead the team in minutes). I agree with you that if he’s much better then the optimistic case for this team would be that we lack a true tank commander. But that’s a significant if.

    Randle is our 2nd best, maybe best, player regardless of whether he bounces back.

    I tend to agree with you and this team badly needs his ability to soak usage, but it’s hard to square with the idea that Toppin will win RotY. If Randle is playing 35+ minutes figuring out the rest of the front court mix becomes tricky without squeezing somebody.

  54. Re: Thibs and Mitch
    I think Thibs is experienced and (probably) can see talent when that’s the case, so he will try to turn Mitch into a very good player. If Mitch is a child and needs to be treated as one, so be it. I trust Thibs on this.

    Re: Harden package
    I think one team that’s being overlooked is the Atlanta Hawks, they can offer a package of Capela Hunter Reddish three 1RP (21,23,25).
    10 man rotation w/ Harden: Young/Rondo, Bogdanovic/Huerter, Harden/?, Collins/Gallo, Okongwu/Fernando (in the East, that’s a Finals candidate)
    And yeah, Allan is right, Harden won’t agree to come to the Knicks. Thank God.

    Re: Knicks lineup
    My bet is: (starters) Payton, RJ, Burks, Randle, Mitch // (backups) Rivers, Frank, Bullock, Toppin, Noel
    Then there’s 3 (DSJ, Quickley, Knox) that will have a hard time finding playing time. And the last 2 of the roster won’t play at all and will be decided between Iggy, MKG and Spellman.
    I’m sensing that Iggy will be the odd man out, is it possible to waive him and then sign him to a 2-way contract (waiving Pinson)?

    Re: Worst teams in the league
    I agree with vincoug on the worst 6 of the league (CHI, CLE, DET, NYK, OKC, SAC), and as i said before 3 of these teams will tank effectively (OKC, CLE, DET) and the other 3 will acciden-tank (NYK, CHI, SAC).
    And by the way, this is what suits us, because a “better” team would put us in the purgatory, neither good to make the playoffs, neither bad to have a good draft pick. Anyone want that?
    And i wouldn’t trade Mitch for Lavine, would you guys do it?

  55. thenamestsam: But that’s mainly because Morris’ top line #s were dragged down by a big negative on defense. I tend to use the OBPM #s and then mix in more of a rolling average of a few years of DBPM (with a bit of subjective flavoring) because I think the defensive box score #s are a lot squishier. Neither Burks nor Bullock has had a season where they really approached Morris’ offensive contributions from last season (speaking just about his time with us).

    Normally, I’d say this makes a lot of sense. However, Morris was playing out of position at SF when he’s really a PF at this point in his career and given the modern NBA. Maybe Morris could chase SF around screens when he was younger, but at 30 and having played PF at every other recent stop… I kind of doubt it. DBPM is noisy so it doesn’t mean much, but after moving back to PF for LAC his DBPM jumped back up.

  56. I don’t understand why people keep saying “and Harden would never agree to come to the Knicks” (and for the record, I really don’t want to give up every asset we have to get him)

    It’s not up to him where he goes, and Houston may be more likely than less to refuse to send him to the Nets if he starts acting like a petulant a-hole.

  57. thenamestsam: RJ is clearly going to play a ton again (I would be shocked if he doesn’t lead the team in minutes). I agree with you that if he’s much better then the optimistic case for this team would be that we lack a true tank commander. But that’s a significant if.

    That’s fair. But at that point RJ is either getting benched by Thibs or I’ll be fine with letting RJ & Obi get playing time on our way to a lottery pick.

  58. cybersoze: Then there’s 3 (DSJ, Quickley, Knox) that will have a hard time finding playing time. And the last 2 of the roster won’t play at all and will be decided between Iggy, MKG and Spellman.
    I’m sensing that Iggy will be the odd man out, is it possible to waive him and then sign him to a 2-way contract (waiving Pinson)?

    I think MKG is the odd man out unless Iggy really stinks it up in training camp. I really don’t see a use for him on our team unless Thibs falls in love with his defense. Maybe he backs up Obi after we trade Randle?

  59. In a shameless display of homerism, I voted Toppin.

    Actually, the “logic” here is that Thibs will quickly tire of Randle’s low BBIQ, and the Knicks will be starved for scoring. Enter Toppin, who should get plenty of minutes and score enough POINTZ to be the Rookie of the Year.

  60. d-mar:
    I don’t understand why people keep saying “and Harden would never agree to come to the Knicks” (and for the record, I really don’t want to give up every asset we have to get him)
    It’s not up to him where he goes, and Houston may be more likely than less to refuse to send him to the Nets if he starts acting like a petulant a-hole.

    Well, you have a point there. If Houston wants to send him here, he’ll have to come here. But usually teams tend to take in consideration the intentions of the player, not that it matters in Harden’s case but in future approachs to free-agents they will remember how Houston handles things. And because of that, i don’t think Harden ends on the Knicks.

  61. E: The other musical related thing I think about a lot is getting a turntable again and albums again. I’ve come close a couple times, but I’ve lived in an apartment in the city forever and when you do that ideas like that run aground on the “It’s going to take up a lot of space and you might move again in a year” rocks.

    Been collecting vinyl since the Red Holzman Era and have accumulated (what my wife regards as an unhealthily) large number. I always caution people who may be thinking about joining me down the rabbit hole that, yes, space does quickly become an issue. Unless one lives in overly spacious quarters or is willing to pay $$ for outside storage (neither of which applies in my case) one inevitably reaches a point (and it happens sooner than you’d think) where records start to encroach on places in the home where records have no business being.

    Over 10 years back I adapted a strict one-in-one-out policy. If I bought, say, 1,000 records over the course of a year (not uncommon as I strictly limit my purchases to cheap records at thrifts, yard sales etc) I’d then bring that same amount to sell at the swap meet. This has helped maintain the collection at something less than a “Hoarders” show level. The pandemic has also helped as I’ve hardly purchased anything this year. But should the world ever return to something close to normal, I know I’ll be out there again, buying more.

    Yeah, I’m a profoundly sick puppy but after 50 years, I doubt that I’ll stop buying records before I’m dead. It’s a fun hobby that can easily become highly addictive – and potentially problematic if you live in a small apartment. Something to keep in mind before buying that first turntable. Good luck.

  62. I think MKG is the odd man out unless Iggy really stinks it up in training camp. I really don’t see a use for him on our team unless Thibs falls in love with his defense. Maybe he backs up Obi after we trade Randle?

    Worldwide Wes is MKG’s “uncle.” I doubt he was brought here just to get cut after camp. I think it’s more likely that Iggy really has to ball out in camp and exhibitions to avoid getting cut. Which stinks, but it is what it is with a new regime.

  63. Early Bird: I think MKG is the odd man out unless Iggy really stinks it up in training camp. I really don’t see a use for him on our team unless Thibs falls in love with his defense. Maybe he backs up Obi after we trade Randle?

    I’m with you, it would be a dumb move to waive a young player with potential, even if the chances to reach it are slim, to give way to a guy that is below average and will only get worst from now on (he’s 27). But Thibs likes veterans and we don’t have a lot of that, for his taste of course.

  64. re: Harden, yes, he’s under contract for a while, but he can make things very difficult on the team that trades for him if he doesn’t want to be there. I imagine any team willing to offer up a Harden-worthy package would only do so if they got reassurances from his camp that he’d happily go there.

  65. Alan: Worldwide Wes is MKG’s “uncle.” I doubt he was brought here just to get cut after camp. I think it’s more likely that Iggy really has to ball out in camp and exhibitions to avoid getting cut. Which stinks, but it is what it is with a new regime.

    Well, this settles it, MKG is guaranteed. So Iggy has to outplay Spellman to keep his place in the roster.

  66. Alan: Worldwide Wes is MKG’s “uncle.” I doubt he was brought here just to get cut after camp.

    Lordy, I hope this is not the lens through which we will have to examine all prospective personnel moves going forward. If this front office is indeed committed to protecting any players on the roster connected to CAA. Worldwide Wes, or UK then I guess we’ll just have to get used to former Wildcats Kevin Knox and Julius Randle sticking around for a goodly while.

  67. Early Bird: Normally, I’d say this makes a lot of sense. However, Morris was playing out of position at SF when he’s really a PF at this point in his career and given the modern NBA. Maybe Morris could chase SF around screens when he was younger, but at 30 and having played PF at every other recent stop… I kind of doubt it. DBPM is noisy so it doesn’t mean much, but after moving back to PF for LAC his DBPM jumped back up.

    That’s reasonable and if you want to say that Morris’ overall contribution from last year can be largely replaced I mostly agree with that – I don’t think he was an all-star or anything like that, but part of what I’m trying to get at with this conversation is that someone is going to have to take the offensive reins for this team.

    Last year Morris did it a lot, but he’s gone. Randle did it a lot, but he may be a bit marginalized if Obi is going to play as much some people seem to think (and I certainly hope). Maybe Obi is ready to do a lot offensively, but I’m always dubious of rookies, regardless of how ready everyone deems them in advance; I’d feel a lot better about him if I thought we had the right PnR formula for him (we lack both the guards and the ability to space the floor at all from the C position). RJ definitely will, but maybe for worse rather than better. Bullock isn’t that guy. Burks maybe can be – he’s always been a pretty high usage guy but in pretty small roles; I think there’s some extra challenge in trying to be one of the primary wing scorers for a team.

    It’s going to be…interesting trying to coax a coherent offense out of this group and Thibs hasn’t exactly been known for offensive wizardry in either of his stops even though his Minny teams were objectively good on offense.

  68. If Spellman shows up in less than top shape, it’s my guess that barring a roster-clearance trade he and Evans don’t make it. If he impresses, then it will be MKG. They’re not gonna cut Iggy.

  69. At what point do we just accept it and rebrand ourselves as NepotismBlogger? If we keep that up long enough we might find ourselves hobknobbing with some of the biggest names in the field – now that Parler’s the dumpster fire everyone knew it would be, you just know your Don Jrs and Jared Kushners of the world are positively itching for a place to discuss their insights on how nepotism is great for everyone and we should enjoy it.

  70. Yeah, I’m a profoundly sick puppy but after 50years, I doubt that I’ll stop buying records before I’m dead.It’s a fun hobby that can easily become highly addictive – and potentially problematic if you live in a small apartment. Something to keep in mind before buying that first turntable. Good luck.

    Good advice and cool story. I’m actually kind of right in the sweet spot age for this — vinyl as a really young kid, chucked them when CDs came out in mainstream ca. late 80s, and then still young and stupid and futuristic enough to junk all the CDs into the cloud when digital everything became a thing. Couple years ago, sort of began realizing that was stupid af, and have bought maybe like 30 CDs (and I’m slowly doing the same thing with BluRays). Kind of go back and forth with yearning for the tangible thing that I own and that is “mine” and also has the advantage of Apple/Amazon/Netflix not knowing what I’m watching/reading/listening to, and the ease and practicality (and shit massive compression) of digital. As best I can tell, this is kind of a common thing with my age cohort. Easy to figure out why hipster types have resuscitated the turntable, but I wouldn’t be doing it for hipster reasons — what with not really being a hipster and all.

  71. I think the whole “what will future free agents think” angle is a bit overblown. I doubt Houston would think about that. What is better for them in the short term? Trading Harden for as good of an offer as possible to restock and rebuild or trading Harden for crap just so they don’t theoretically turn off some future free agent from signing there? I mean, a few years from now no one will even remember what Houston traded Harden for and why.

    I mean, Harden has been their franchise player for many years. They signed him to a max when he was a 6th man at OKC and then resigned him for another max. Are people really going to think “don’t go to houston cause if you want out after being there for 8 years and making hundreds of millions of dollars and try to force your way to one team they won’t send you there.”

  72. Unfortunately for the tangibility idea, there are a number of albums now coming out in only digital and vinyl — no CD, Japandroids’ Massey Fucking Hall being a recent unfortunate example. Not sure precisely how prevalent this is, but it’s more than rare.

  73. Yeah I’d be pretty surprised if Iggy was cut. Perry is still here and while I’m somewhat skeptical of his game translating to the NBA, the guy has done nothing but produce at every level of competition so far.

    I think Evans is as good as gone and Spellman is next on the chopping block barring a trade. At that point it’d be down to MKG/Iggy/Powell and I think they’d cut Powell before Iggy, though they should really just cut MKG if it comes down to this.

    When you start doing the math and thinking about guys this front office probably wants to keep, it sure makes you think they’re still looking to make a trade. Macri has mentioned that Frank is available but as usual interest seems to be lacking.

  74. RE vinyl

    I never got rid of my old JVC turntable, but I stopped buying vinyl back in the late 80’s, and only used it occasionally. However, a few years ago I decided to resume playing and buying new vinyl. I bought one of the red U-Turn Orbit Plus turntables. Since then I’ve added another 30 or so titles to my collection that had remained dormant for so long.

    Most recent: X’s new “Alphabetland”

  75. Begley says, re: the Knicks and Buddy Hield:

    A note on Buddy Hield and the Kings: In talks with some teams about trades involving Hield, Sacramento had been asking for draft compensation, SNY has learned. The Knicks have a significant amount of draft capital over the next few drafts. But it’s unknown if New York would have any interest in a) trading for Hield or b) including future draft picks in a Hield transaction.

    Sending Julius Randle’s salary out in a deal for Hield would work under trade rules.

    As of earlier this week, no Knicks trade with the Kings or any other team was imminent.

  76. thenoblefacehumper:
    Yeah I’d be pretty surprised if Iggy was cut. Perry is still here and while I’m somewhat skeptical of his game translating to the NBA, the guy has done nothing but produce at every level of competition so far.

    I think Evans is as good as gone and Spellman is next on the chopping block barring a trade. At that point it’d be down to MKG/Iggy/Powell and I think they’d cut Powell before Iggy, though they should really just cut MKG if it comes down to this.

    When you start doing the math and thinking about guys this front office probably wants to keep, it sure makes you think they’re still looking to make a trade. Macri has mentioned that Frank is available but as usual interest seems to be lacking.

    Powell and Evans have zero chance. Maybe Powell snags a 2-way and we let Pinson or Harper go, that’s it.

    That still leaves 1 too many players.

    Iggy is almost certainly gone before Spellman since he was drafted in the 1st round, we just traded for him, and he’s actually performed in the NBA. Plus, we need a 3rd C for the 4 times this year Mitch & Noel both foul out within 10 minutes.

    I do think it comes down to Iggy or MKG for the last roster spot barring a trade.

  77. TheClashFan:
    RE vinyl

    I never got rid of my old JVC turntable, but I stopped buying vinyl back in the late 80’s, and only used it occasionally.However, a few years ago I decided to resume playing and buying new vinyl. I bought one of the red U-Turn Orbit Plus turntables. Since then I’ve added another 30 or so titles to my collection that had remained dormant for so long.

    Most recent: X’s new “Alphabetland”

    You guys are making me nostalgic of my old Pioneer turntable from the 70s… it had the most superb sound, helped by two gigantic speakers and an awesome amplifier! Good times! :)

  78. thenamestsam: That’s reasonable and if you want to say that Morris’ overall contribution from last year can be largely replaced I mostly agree with that – I don’t think he was an all-star or anything like that, but part of what I’m trying to get at with this conversation is that someone is going to have to take the offensive reins for this team.

    Last year Morris did it a lot, but he’s gone. Randle did it a lot, but he may be a bit marginalized if Obi is going to play as much some people seem to think (and I certainly hope). Maybe Obi is ready to do a lot offensively, but I’m always dubious of rookies, regardless of how ready everyone deems them in advance; I’d feel a lot better about him if I thought we had the right PnR formula for him (we lack both the guards and the ability to space the floor at all from the C position). RJ definitely will, but maybe for worse rather than better. Bullock isn’t that guy. Burks maybe can be – he’s always been a pretty high usage guy but in pretty small roles; I think there’s some extra challenge in trying to be one of the primary wing scorers for a team.

    It’s going to be…interesting trying to coax a coherent offense out of this group and Thibs hasn’t exactly been known for offensive wizardry in either of his stops even though his Minny teams were objectively good on offense.

    I see what you’re saying. Yeah if we need a usage soaker on the perimeter that comes down to RJ or Burks. Either way that’s not good unless Burks reproduces last year’s numbers. Payton throwing Mitch a few more lobs a game is my dark horse candidate and where I think not having Taj will help.

  79. Early Bird:
    Powell and Evans have zero chance.
    I do think it comes down to Iggy or MKG for the last roster spot barring a trade.

    I agree, and this will serve as a test to check if “family” ties matter more than strategy.

  80. Plus, we need a 3rd C for the 4 times this year Mitch & Noel both foul out within 10 minutes.

    Good point. Spellman probably sticks, which is a good thing. It seems like they’re wedded to Harper and Pinson with the 2-ways, so my guess is Powell either has to make the roster or he’s gone.

    It’s still hard for me to imagine them cutting Iggy after Perry specifically targeted him a year ago and all that’s happened since is he had a promising year in the G-League. I guess we have to hope either the MKG thing is just a favor to get him in a building or there’s still a trade to be made.

  81. i find it confusing how someone like mkg has so much trouble finding a spot in this league… it wasn’t that long ago that tony allen was a very useful piece… not that mkg is the defensive guy allen is but someone should be able to use him.. did something happen to him in the last year?

  82. I agree, and this will serve as a test to check if “family” ties matter more than strategy.

    Look, I want to keep Iggy and find out what he can do in an NBA game, but I don’t think nepotism is the only, or even primary, reason they might keep MKG over him. To continue my role as the Dolan’s Advocate of Knickerblogger:

    1)We have three plus defenders on this roster in Mitch, Noel, and Frank, the latter of whom may not play (or may be traded). Everyone else rates from passable on D (Bullock, RJ) to downright embarrassing (Randle, Knox), and for all of Iggy’s demonstrable gifts as a scorer in college and the G-League, he is not known as a defender. Having MKG around as an “in case of emergency, break glass” end of the bench defender on a night when we just really need a stop isn’t the worst idea in the world.

    2)Even if MKG doesn’t play much, or at all, in games, he’s someone that RJ, Obi, Frank, Knox, etc., would have to match up at different times in practice. And developmental coaches talk a lot about how valuable that kind of thing can be for younger players.

    I’m still hoping we do a two-for-one trade involving Randle and someone else  — even Iggy himself — before the season starts, and I’d hate to see Iggy just cut, but I also wouldn’t hate having MKG as the 15th man.

  83. as far as who wins ROY… it’s going to probably be wiseman or okongwu… they are both in supremely ideal spots and they have outsized atheticism for the position already to contribute when they have capable players to create opportunities for them…..

  84. Collecting Vinyls or Cds or both can be fun.
    Needs selfcontrol tho since it can easily become problematic due to space issues as Cdp mentioned.
    Big part of the charm of this hobby is in “hunting” or “digging” as its called.
    Collecting your favourite musics while also listening to them on a decent audio system can bring joy and balance the misery from the knicks games.
    I declare Consciously Addicted for a Lifetime and Very Happy about it.

  85. Technically we can re-sign Iggy to a 2-way if we do cut him. I think we would part with Harper or Pinson in that case. That, or management really has no confidence in his game.

    Of course, if we do cut Iggy he can always look for other deals before coming back on a 2-way.

  86. Macri has mentioned that Frank is available but as usual interest seems to be lacking.

    lmao

    That’s a fake news story from Twitter. Frank supposedly removed something Knicks related from his bio on Instagram and everyone started speculating he was on the trade block. The Knicks have already said what they think of Frank. They said they believe he’s a good fit for what they are trying to build in NY but not the answer at PG.

    Stefan Bondy
    @SBondyNYDN
    Asked Ntilikina about Twitter buzz about him erasing Knicks from his bio equating to possible trade. He indicated he erased it a long time ago:

    “I heard about it. It’s been a while. It’s been a really long time. It’s nothing new. I’m here. …I’m really happy to be a Knick.”

    Steve Popper
    @StevePopper
    Ntilikina said that the business part – last year of contract, trade rumors – will take care of itself if he does the work.

    Steve Popper
    @StevePopper
    Frank Ntilikina said he thinks he has improved his scoring and playmaking – and said it’s part of the business that he’s on his 4th coach in 4 years.

    It’s pretty obvious he’s a good fit for Thibs. What’s less obvious is if he showed up to camp with an improved shot, a more mature and aggressive attitude, and a little stronger. If not, he’s going to have a tough time getting minutes. We have a few SGs, combo guards, and PGs that are going to play.

  87. I am a underground metal/punk listener, and there is still a huge vinyl scene there. Picked up Jodie Faster’s newest release straight from France, thanks to Bandcamp.

    Apropos to terrible lineups, Simmons’ recent Book of Basketball pods have featured Iverson and Garnett. I forgot about the cast of characters those guys played with. Troy Hudson, anyone?

  88. @StevePopper
    NBA announcing the 1st half schedule now and I’m hearing some, let’s say questionable stuff. Looking at Knicks, for example, they will have periods criss-crossing the nation – including early in the season where they’ll be on the road for 20 of 30 days. Best of luck.

  89. I like Macri a lot, but I get the impression he has no connections or insider information in the Knicks front office.

    From the few tweets I’ve seen before, he seems pretty far off. I think he’s just taking stabs in the dark.

  90. Early Bird:
    I like Macri a lot, but I get the impression he has no connections or insider information in the Knicks front office.
    From the few tweets I’ve seen before, he seems pretty far off. I think he’s just taking stabs in the dark.

    He’s obviously a very passionate fan that seems to be trying to build a following on social media, but I don’t think he has any direct lines to anyone inside. He probably hears buzz from the beat writers and such, but I don’t believe half of what they write either.

  91. Macri is talking with people inside the building. Whether they are telling him the truth, I do not know.

  92. Alan: Look, I want to keep Iggy and find out what he can do in an NBA game, but I don’t think nepotism is the only, or even primary, reason they might keep MKG over him. To continue my role as the Dolan’s Advocate of Knickerblogger…

    I agree with your reasoning, but we’re talking about a player that had the following stats in 2019-20:
    TS% 39.5 , 2P% 37.0 , 3P% 25.0 , OBPM -6.3 , DBPM -1.1 (is this a good defender?)

    I think he fell of a cliff and he’s probably out of the league if we let him go. But we’ll see, if he stays and plays well maybe it’s because he’s regained his mojo.

  93. Alan:
    Macri is talking with people inside the building. Whether they are telling him the truth, I do not know.

    I do trust you on this. So I’m wrong and probably haven’t give him the benefit of the doubt that I should.

    And there’s a lot of potential moves or lines of thinking that never get followed. All the beat writers tied the Knicks to transactions that never materialized, especially this offseason.

    As I said, I do like Macri a lot. I’m probably too cynical.

  94. That’s a fake news story from Twitter. Frank supposedly removed something Knicks related from his bio on Instagram and everyone started speculating he was on the trade block. The Knicks have already said what they think of Frank. They said they believe he’s a good fit for what they are trying to build in NY but not the answer at PG.

    Literally yesterday I made the point that we shouldn’t spend too much time on the Hield stuff because it was based on the Instagram nonsense. That’s not what Macri is talking about. Whatever you think of him as a source, he has been saying for a while that they are shopping Frank, and mentioned it again in his newsletter today (independent of the Instagram stuff).

    Like Alan said, he might be getting misinformed but he is not making stuff up Tommy Dee style.

  95. I’m 28 and just started going back to CDs for my preferred listening format. Like E, I like owning my own stuff and the compression/bitrate/everything on streaming is just garbage. That said, I also have a well-stocked Bandcamp. I’ve always picked up vinyl, but it really accelerated when my partner and I took the plunge and bought two vintage Technics 1200s to supplement our XDJ. Now we’re learning how to DJ the old-fashioned way, without those fancy waveforms, hot cues, and jog wheels. It’s very fun, and makes your ear better, though it’s quite hard when all you know is the convenience of digital. It is also expensive and space-intensive, but, mercifully, being in Chicago as opposed to New York is a difference-maker and makes the habit much more tenable. In the end I love all formats besides Spotify streaming and spend too much money on all of them.

  96. On Mitch, he has done well but has obvious one severe flaw – he can’t stay out of foul trouble. That has kept him from being an all-star. But his head is something we, as fans, can only see anecdotally, through someone else’s eyes, filtered through their lens. If he’s a head case (and there’s some evidence there), he might need to get traded. I say this because he’s tradable now and anyone that plays the marked knows, “Buy low, sell high”. His value may never be this high again.

  97. Who the second best player on the roster is going to be is an interesting question. I think the top candidates would be:

    1. Payton, especially if he shoots more in line with his (bad) career average. He was the second best player on the team of the guys we brought back. He makes the rest of the offense better with his penetration and passing and he plays okay defense and that’s almost enough to make up for his own inability to shoot.

    2. Nerlens. Noel is a really nice defense big, a good shot blocker who can switch onto smaller guys. Doesn’t do much to help the offense but finish though.

    3. Randle-he’s been a pretty decent NBA player before. If he can get back to being a half decent stretch big that’s enough to make up for his shitty defense to maybe make him our 2nd best guy.

    It’s also possible that someone has a fluky good 3 point shooting season like Morris did and winds up being surprisingly okay. Those are some pretty bad second options, this team still has a pretty severe lack of talent unless someone young has taken a significant leap. It’s been a long time since our shitty kids have played so maybe it’s more likely that happens.

  98. A big problem with the pro-MKG case in my opinion is that he’s not actually anything special as a defensive player. If he was he’d have found some kind of NBA home by now even with all his offensive warts. He’s perfectly decent, above average even, but the idea of keeping him around as some kind of defensive secret weapon – he just isn’t good enough for that. I think it would be a pretty big process flaw for him to make this team over an even mildly interesting young player.

  99. A big problem with the pro-MKG case in my opinion is that he’s not actually anything special as a defensive player.

    Fair. I know nothing beyond the reputation. He would still, sadly, be one of our better defenders.

  100. I don’t know if I’m OK with saying that Mitch is the “best” player on the team. Of the players I’ve actually watched play, he has the most natural ability and has put up league-leading numbers. But if I grant that (because there’s no obvious other candidate) I’ll agree that he’s the worst best player in the league.
    I think that the other candidates are Randle, Barrett, Noel and Toppin at the moment. This is a collection of rotation wanna-be’s. May the best scrubs win.

  101. What’s wrong with Spotify streaming? You can stream at 320 bitrate, no?

    I’m selling my vinyl stuff this week. Too expensive, too fickle. I’ll probably get my ass bitten when Spotify fractures into 10 different streaming services and I can’t find anything I want without searching each one, the way it is with movies and shows now.

  102. Based off that current schedule, the Knicks would be lucky to be something like 7-16 by February. It will be interesting to see how Thibs reacts to that.

  103. The Honorable Cock Jowles:
    What’s wrong with Spotify streaming? You can stream at 320 bitrate, no?

    I’m selling my vinyl stuff this week. Too expensive, too fickle. I’ll probably get my ass bitten when Spotify fractures into 10 different streaming services and I can’t find anything I want without searching each one, the way it is with movies and shows now.

    It will actually be interesting to see how the music industry moves forward. Generally, it’s not worth it to contract for specific artists or songs the way it makes sense for movies and TV shows. The income you make off an individual song isn’t worth the price. Even Jay-Z eventually caved and now all his music is back on Spotify instead of being Tidal exclusive.

    The other sales model I’ve seen is some artists will release their album early on their own website or bandcamp for download and put it up on streaming services a week or a month later. I don’t think it would make as much sense for Atlantic Records to make its own streaming service as it does for Disney. Any given record company only has a handful of artists I’d care about and if there’s only 1 or 2 songs, that probably isn’t worth subscribing.

    Other than that, maybe you see some online clearinghouse where you choose which artists you want access to and pay a monthly fee based on how much the artists you choose decide to charge you. Or some variation of that.

  104. I’m rooting for Iggy, but I’m having a hard time seeing how a guy who hits .344 of his 3s and .687 at the free-throw line — in the G League — is a lock for an NBA seat. Plus the one thing we already seem to be rich in is mediocre to bad wings.

    I think unless Spellman comes in really out of shape he has to be a lock. He’s a wide-body big (Randle’s our only other one and he never seemed to like banging) who hit 39% of his threes last year. He’s be our only stretch-4 (or stretch-5, but he’s only 6’8″ so it’d have to be in real small-ball lineups).

  105. Raven: I think unless Spellman comes in really out of shape he has to be a lock. He’s a wide-body big (Randle’s our only other one and he never seemed to like banging) who hit 39% of his threes last year. He’s be our only stretch-4 (or stretch-5, but he’s only 6’8? so it’d have to be in real small-ball lineups).

    Obi should be able to stretch the floor. There’s also Knox (lol). I have no faith in Randle’s shooting and he only had one good shooting year, which is likely a fluke, but it’s not impossible he hits threes at an acceptable rate.

    Also, 6’8″ is enough to play center in the league today. There’s only so many 7fters who have the post game to shoot over him. Plus he’s big enough to hold his ground against many of them.

  106. Alan: Fair. I know nothing beyond the reputation. He would still, sadly, be one of our better defenders.

    100% agree; it’s definitely an obvious weakness of this roster that there’s nobody to guard the big wing threats who are the majority of top players in the league. It’s Bullock by default but he’s merely an adequate defender, and there isn’t even really a 2nd choice. If Bullock picks up 2 quick fouls who’s guarding Durant, or Tatum, or Simmons (just to pick 3 in our division)? Burks or Knox I guess, and either way it’s going to be an absolute massacre.

    But also who cares you know what I mean? This team has 50 different holes and MKG just fundamentally is not a good basketball player, for every hole in the roster that he plugs he opens 2 or 3 others. Throwing away Iggy (or whoever) to keep him is very likely to be inconsequential, but it’s the kind of thing on the margin that the best organizations so rarely get wrong and that we so consistently do. I would find it to be a pretty discouraging sign.

  107. The Honorable Cock Jowles:
    What’s wrong with Spotify streaming? You can stream at 320 bitrate, no?

    Depends on what music you listen to. For 95% of pop/rock 320 sounds fine but for a lot of Jazz/Classical recordings where they aren’t compressing the hell out of everything from the get-go lossless files are the way to go. I don’t romanticize vinyl- the only vinyl I collect are Voice-O-Graph recordings, 78’s you recorded yourself in coin operated booths.

  108. i thought i heard today that due to covid they are going to have 15 man rosters..if that is the case..then based on the faces on the website…there are 16 guys…maybe only one of them will have to go? who is Jacob Evans?

  109. As for the starting 5, I think that this is where Thibs ends up:

    Starters: Dennis Smith Jr., RJ Barrett, Obi Toppin, Julius Randle, Mitchel Robinson will start
    Rotation: Elfrid Payton, Imannuel Quickly, Alec Burks, Omari Spellman, Nerlens Noel
    Bench: Austin Rivers, Frank Ntilikina, Reggie Bullock, Kevin Knox, Michael Kidd-Gilchrist
    G: League: Ignas Brazdeikis, Myles Powell

    With COVID-19 in the air, that “bench” might see more time than usual. Everyone is on a short leash. The difference between “best player” and “on the bubble” is miniscule on this team. None of the players is a top-20 NBA starter at their position.

    I think DSJr gets a shot to start for a number of reasons . I think it’s believed that his personal situation last season really affected him and impacted his game. We forget that players are human. I also think Thibs prefers his type of play. RJ needs to hit foul shots and improve his shooting in general. More important will be his effort on defense. We need to see explosive growth from him. Toppin and Randle compliment each other. I really see that. Randle is a mid-range menace and Toppin is good from deep and attacks the rim. It’ll be interesting to see them play together. Mitch needs to play smart and stay on the floor. He and Noel are interchangable.

    Knox and Frank are out of the rotation – deservedly so. Shit, I would send them to the G-League and would want to see something out of them there. Bullock and Rivers should play over them. Iggy gets buried? Spellman is going to play more than people might guess. He’s a PF/C and (as others stated) Noel and Mitch are going to foul out of games regularly. Honestly, I think we need another big and two fewer guards.

  110. Starters: Dennis Smith Jr., RJ Barrett, Obi Toppin, Julius Randle, Mitchel Robinson will start

    Well, I guess it would be useful to know Tom Thibodeau is somehow the worst coach we’ve had in the last 20 years. So we’d have that going for us.

  111. Who the second best player on the roster is going to be is an interesting question.

    I think it depends a bit on how you define “second best player.” Noel is a near lock to be the second most productive in a vacuum–he’s coming off a .209 WS48/3.1 BPM season.

    However as we’ve discussed just a tad recently, it’s a lot easier to get conventional production from bigs these days and it’s fair to account for that in deciding on a team’s “best” player.

    With a more holistic approach that takes into account positional scarcity etc., I agree it’ll probably be Payton barring a sizable Randle rebound.

    The only thing I’d add is I don’t see at as completely out of the question that Toppin averages 20+ PTS/36 or so with a TS% in the .570-.580 range. That would almost certainly require him shooting at least one three per game and hitting them at a decent clip. It’s not likely, but the guy is 22 and should be able to rack up a lot of easy baskets if Payton can stay healthy. If he does that, he’d probably have an argument for it.

  112. Here’s what my rotation would look like early on:

    Starters: Payton, RJ, Bullock, Randle, Mitch
    Bench: Frank, Rivers, Burks, Obi, Noel

    In and out rotation every 3 games or so: DSjr (for Rivers or Frank)), Quickley (for Frank or Burks), Knox (for Burks, Bullock, RJ or Obi)

    End of bench, situational spot minutes: Iggy, Spellman

    2-Way: Pinson, Harper

    cut./ G-league non-2-way: Powell, Evans, MKG

    Then after a few games I would tighten up things, and the in-and-out group would either be moved into rotation or see less time.

    Keep an eye out for smart trades and adjust rotation accordingly.

  113. More generally, rather than have a set rotation, have 8-9 of the first 10 in all the time, rotate 1-2 of the next three in one at a time, and the last 2 once every 5 games or so. Then adjust based on merit.

  114. Depends on what music you listen to. For 95% of pop/rock 320 sounds fine but for a lot of Jazz/Classical recordings where they aren’t compressing the hell out of everything from the get-go lossless files are the way to go. I don’t romanticize vinyl- the only vinyl I collect are Voice-O-Graph recordings, 78’s you recorded yourself in coin operated booths.

    I have an old collection of stuff from an audiophile ripping site (RIP what dot cd) in FLAC, 24-bit FLAC, 320 and v0. Aside from the quality of vinyl rips, I can’t tell much of a difference between 320 and even 24-bit FLAC. I’d prefer lossless too, but I’m also not willing to jack up my spend to get there. Hopefully Spotify will be compelled by the market to offer lossless.

  115. Other than that, maybe you see some online clearinghouse where you choose which artists you want access to and pay a monthly fee based on how much the artists you choose decide to charge you. Or some variation of that.

    I agree that it’s a terrible model for artists, but the ease of use is unparalleled. I do not one bit miss WinAmp playlists (and skins!) and iTunes creating .aac duplicates of all of my albums just to be an asshole.

  116. Can anyone recommend a different music player and syncer than iTunes for an iPhone? iTunes just makes it so difficult to deal with a large library of songs you got from CD’s instead of by downloading through them.

  117. I think Burks should presumptively be a starter after last season. He had a pretty well-rounded year and soaked up a decent amount of usage. The optimal starting lineup will differ depending on if you want to try to win as many games as possible (Barrett wouldn’t be anywhere near it) or develop the kids to the maximum extent possible.

    Balancing the two a bit, I think as of now I’d go with Payton-Barrett-Burks-Toppin-Mitch. This is assuming, perhaps wrongly, that Toppin is at least a competent shooter right off the bat.

    It’s tough to know how the rest of the rotation should shake out because everyone but Noel and Bullock is bad. It makes some sense to pair Frank with Rivers, since Rivers can do some point guard-y things on offense from time to time. I’d try to work DSJ in with as many shooters as possible, maybe pair him with Quickley-Bullock-Knox/Spellman-Noel.

  118. I still think opening day is Payton-Burks-RJ-Randle-Mitch. Maybe Bullock beats out Burks.

    Win now: Payton-Burks-Bullock-Randle-Mitch. I kinda like this lineup and you can pair RJ & Frank off the bench to split ball handling. This also splits up the non-shooters a bit. I personally think coming off the bench will help RJ unless he’s improved significantly.

  119. ***We don’t really know for sure how good or how bad more than half the players on this team are. They are young***

    I am legitimately interested in seeing what the Knicks have in Toppin. And maybe Barrett will take a nice step this year. But let’s not fool ourselves with Knox and Ntilikina. It’s fine to be young, and it’s fine to be bad. It’s fine to have a terrible rookie year, and it’s okay to have a very bad sophomore year. But name one player that lasted in this league long enough to make an impact who had a terrible rookie season and got WORSE their next year. It just doesn’t happen, and the sample size (even with teenagers) is now very large.

  120. my guess: elf, reggie, RJ, julius and noel…it’s really hard though to imagine obi not starting from day one…

    oh, and these days – i just listen to everything on youtube…i have hundereds of CDs, a bunch of vinyl – which for some reason i don’t remember seeing when i last cleaned out the garage and closets, hmmmmmm…i also have some digital stuff…

    but yeah, mostly just youtube now…

  121. How many agents has Mitch had since he declared for the draft? Gotta be at least 4-5 by now.

    I understand firing the guy who negotiated his contract with the Knicks, but what did he expect the other agents to do while he still had years left on his rookie deal? Kinda weird.

    I really hope that signing with a non-CAA agency doesn’t mean anything regarding Mitch’s future with the team.

  122. six agents is a lot of agents. maybe mitch saw the la law episode where you hire all the lawyers in town so they’re all conflicted out from representing your wife or any other nba players.

  123. i’m not sure what mitch’s whole story is (i believe he has a grandma that helped raise him), but he may just not have anyone in his life to give him sound advice – or, sound advice that he’ll follow…mitch may just be self-directing his own future…that’s tough for a guy his age in a business this structured…

    one noticeable thing with frank, kevin, RJ and obi are that there is close family by their side to help them figure things out…

    not quite sure who was “helping” nerlens in his career before, but good advice is worth a lot…

  124. Wasn’t there at some point some vague uncle or somesuch hanging around Mitch? I want to say there was some inkling that said uncle was involved with him leaving college so quickly, but I’m not super confident in my memory here.

  125. Maybe Mitch should have Mike Conley represent him. Conley is one of the highest commissioned agents in the league, and to date only represents one client.

  126. My audio setup is a Kenwood KR-7600 receiver, which has a mic input to mix with the audio, an Akai quartz lock direct drive turntable, and a pair of Boston Acoustic speakers, which are all pre-1980.

    I sold off most of my vinyl due to space, kids, buying CDs, and then down sizing to retire in Florida.

  127. Mitch is probably looking for an agent to get him an extension this year, so he doesn’t have to play next year for $1.8 million. If the Knicks don’t sign him to an extension, I believe he becomes an UFA after next season.

  128. Yeah I don’t even understand what Mitch is trying to do with his agents? Or maybe they’re quitting him? It’s definitely weird

  129. some of these deals that these bigs signed in the offseason really hurt mitch’s value…. i think one of the more interesting questions is how much money mitch is going to get….. it could be that he’s looking for something in the 18-20mm aav range… i think he’s probably going to get 15mm… maybe even 13mm…..

    we should absolutely do whatever we can to keep him though….

  130. The real 6-dimensional chess is signing Noel who will warn Robinson of the dangers of not taking the money.

  131. I think you offer Mitch Marcus Smart money. 4 years/$52 mill. That is, unless he adds more to his game and becomes more like Gobert. At his current level, he’s just to flaky and unpredictable to offer more than that.

  132. Christian Wood just signed in that price range as well. Mitch is not better than that level of player.

  133. mitch is younger and showed more than wood… he’s almost at that deandre jordan level of player who’s probably one of the top 3 rim runners and a potentially top 3 rim protector who has room to expand his game a tad…

    that should theoretically get more than wood got…. jonas valuncianas got 3yr 45mm and i think mitch ends up around there considering mitch hasn’t started in his career yet…

    in any case we cannot let a very good 22yo leave via FA…. i would probably go as high as 18mm to keep him but aim ~15mm….

  134. I would try to extend him, mainly to keep him happy and engaged, but he is definitely a rfa when his contract expires.

    As for the starting lineup, I’m guessing: Payton, Burks, RJ, Toppin, and Robinson, with Frank, Rivers, Bullock, Randle, and Noel off the bench and Knox, Quickley, Spellman, Iggy, and MKG filling out the rest of the bench. I think we will move DSj before the season starts and wouldn’t be surprised if we moved Randle in the next couple of months.

    I think by the trade deadline we will have moved one or two more of our veterans, probably Rivers and Bullock, and both Quickley and Knox will be in the rotation.

  135. I work all day on music in the digital domain, and I listen a on my fancy D/A converters and studio monitors. At the end of the day I’ll often put on a vinyl album and listen on my entry-level analog setup— Marantz power amp, vintage Bang and Olufsen speakers, and Technics 1200 turntable.

    It’s like putting on a cozy pair of slippers. It’s just very pleasing to the ears, and the main difference I hear is in the high end. It’s particularly noticeable with records that were mastered in the 60’s and 70’s, original pressings of those records. The high end is just a lot more mellow and smooth when nothing digital is involved in the chain. A lot of modern pressings of classic albums were remastered digitally, which really defeats the whole purpose.

    The best sounding records in my collection (I have about 600) are almost all original pressings from the 60’s and 70’s.

  136. JK47: Marantz power amp, vintage Bang and Olufsen speakers, and Technics 1200 turntable.

    Entry level!?!? That shit is the BOMB!

  137. thenoblefacehumper: Well, I guess it would be useful to know Tom Thibodeau is somehow the worst coach we’ve had in the last 20 years. So we’d have that going for us.

    Early Bird: Mike Woodson, that you?

    These are predictions of what will happen, not what I want to happen. I don’t ever get what I want :(

    My desire?
    Starters: Frank, Barrett, Knox, Toppin, Mitch
    6th man: Quickly
    Rest of rotation: Iggy, Noel, DSJr, Randle
    Back of bench: Peyton, Burks, Spellman, Rivers, Bullock, Kidd-Gilchrist
    G: League: Myles Powell

    I would never have signed any of the back of the bench dudes. Instead, I would have signed a real PG and a real wing and backfilled with random fodder. With what we have, I would let the kids play together for a month and see if any learned a thing in the offseason. Changes would be made based on that.

  138. The Honorable Cock Jowles: I have an old collection of stuff from an audiophile ripping site (RIP what dot cd) in FLAC, 24-bit FLAC, 320 and v0. Aside from the quality of vinyl rips, I can’t tell much of a difference between 320 and even 24-bit FLAC. I’d prefer lossless too, but I’m also not willing to jack up my spend to get there. Hopefully Spotify will be compelled by the market to offer lossless.

    A lot of the music I listen to is very quiet and on headphones I definitely hear a difference. That said, I’ve also seen a few too many loud noise shows over the years and my high end hearing has definitely taken a hit so it all just might be in my head.

  139. I think that if Mitch accepts something like 13 million a year, like 4 years 52 million, it’s a coup for us. If he stays healthy and doesn’t even show much progression, it’s still a super tradeable contract for a very productive player. I do think he’ll try to get the bag as soon as he can, because his initial contract was so damn low, but let’s hope the Center market stays slow and he doesn’t get much better offers than this.

  140. Z-man: Entry level!?!? That shit is the BOMB!

    Well, it’s sort of entry level for audiophiles. It’s the cheapest power amp Marantz makes and the B&O speakers aren’t super fancy. The speakers are the weak link in the chain.

    Some people spend insane amounts of money on audiophile shit.

  141. I looked up the college stats of Obi Toppin and Kenny Walker. They are not that far apart. They are both forwards. Toppin is an inch taller and ten pounds heavier than Walker. Toppin shot a little better percentage and maybe had more assists, but played in a weaker conference than Walker did. Rebounds were similar. Like Toppin, Walker entered the league at 22 years old.

    Walker was drafted number five and played five years for the Knicks and never really made it as a starter. I think he did win a slam dunk competition. He went and played in Spain for two years and then came back to the NBA for another two. It’s not really an encouraging comparison, but there are a couple of things that might work in Toppin’s favor. He was a late starter and only played two years of college ball unlike Walker who played a full four years in college. He may have more room to improve than Walker did. I vaguely remember that Walker was talented, but not big enough to guard power forwards and not fast enough to guard threes. Toppin is a little bigger and maybe quicker and the league is different with more small ball so he may match up better with today’s power forwards than Walker did in his day. I hope so.

  142. I don’t think the issue with Toppin is size so much as his weakness on defense. 6’8″ – 6’9″ is perfectly adequate for a power forward in today’s game; the bigger issue is just whether Toppin will be just garden-variety bad on defense or a complete sieve. His rebounding is also kind of lackluster, but again you don’t need to be seven feet tall to rebound effectively.

  143. Re: Toppin vs. Sky Walker: Toppin did have a pretty sizable advantage in TS% .687 to .616. Athletically Walker was strictly a two-footed jumper and had to gather before going up while Toppin is really quick off of his feet. As long as his outside shot is functional Toppin should be a much better offensive player.

  144. I noticed the true shooting difference, but wasn’t sure about how significant it was since there was no such thing as a three point shot when Walker played.

    As for the quickness, I agree that more quickness on Toppin’s part will help a lot.

  145. Hell of a fire in the East Village, very sad….

    I’d give Mitch 4×12-15 without hesitation. But I think that’s the top end of his value. Not sure his value runs away from us that much.

    I am very interested to see if Mitch can open his game up this year. I think he has the athleticism to do it.

  146. Walker was a C in college with an old-fashioned game. He had to transition to SF and didn’t have anywhere near the skillset to be anything but mediocre there. He just couldn’t defend w/o fouling and didn’t have any go-to moves on O, became largely a garden-variety jump-shooter with an occasional dunk mixed in.

    Obi has the face-up skills, 3-pt shot, strength and length to be a dominant 4 on offense in the high PnR-dominant game of today’s NBA. Defense is a huge issue, but today’s schemes are more team-oriented and less iso-oriented.

    Maybe a bad outcome is Amare after his first Knicks year?

  147. Mitch’s revolving door of agents is just another reason to think he’s got some “flake” in him. I think “going to college; not going to college”, “going to the combine; not going to the combine”, “I’m in the bubble, I’m not in the bubble” and this 6 different agents (yes it was reported this is his 6th agent) so far thing are all a glimpse as to why he dropped in the draft. There’s always a story, but I’m not buying all of it. Everyone knew he was talented, but it must have been apparent there were some “issues”. Teams just didn’t realize how talented he was because he wasn’t playing. Time will tell whether he matures out of it or one day gets a bug up his ass and asks for a trade or does some other silly thing.

  148. Mitch is tantalyzing. Best 7’+ natural athlete I’ve seen in a long time. Just so damn flakey. Is he Michael Beasley-Ron Artest-Bird Man-level flakey?

  149. The more I look at what the Knicks did this off season the more I think it’s likely they are going to be active at the trade deadline.

    Last year they overpaid for everyone except Bullock (who they got cheaper because of the injury) and Morris (who they sort of lucked into when Bullock got hurt). It was a year of incompetence, but it came with a lesson they should have learned sooner. You can flip a good veteran player (like Morris) later if you want a pick or want to use them as part of trade as long as you sign them at a fair price to begin with. IMO, the Knicks have a few “flippable” or “tradeable” players available. They may even be able to roll up into very good player if they throw some of their own picks into the mix.

    We have a couple of months to gauge guys like DSJr, Frank, and Knox to decide if they are part of the future, We’ll also get a look at Obi and Quickley. Then we will have a better idea what to do with a guy like Randle (who imo is better than he looked last year) and can always moves guys like Burks, Rivers, Bullock, and even Noel later (if Mitch has matured and grown into a legitimate starter that can stay on the court).

    I’m with Thibs in terms of players having to earn minutes, but I hope he doesn’t totally bury Knox or Frank behind some of these vets unless it’s clear in practice that they haven’t made any progress. Rivers, Burks, and Bullock are fine, but we know what they are.

  150. Z-man: Mitch is tantalyzing. Best 7’+ natural athlete I’ve seen in a long time. Just so damn flakey. Is he Michael Beasley-Ron Artest-Bird Man-level flakey?

    The strange thing to me is that he doesn’t come off as flakey or any other mildly negative term I can think of in interviews. He comes off like a good kid that wants to get better. But 6 agents? The problem can’t all be “them”.

  151. We forget that he’s just a kid. I’m pretty sure he’s not matured yet. This story in the Athletic a year ago paints a picture of a kid that is the son of an unwed teenage mother and raised by his grandmother. I’m not sure what he had as a father figure. His leaving college hinted at him being sensitive. I don’t think he’s a bad kid or a complete wacko. I think he’s sensitive and has a lot of maturing to do. Leaving Western Kentucky in the middle of the night, bailing on the team bubble sessions, changing agencies frequently makes you think that he doesn’t get good family guidance. Mitch may need a big-brother.

    Thing is, the NBA is not that place. He’s less of a person now than a commodity.

  152. For the record, I don’t think Beasley, MWP or Bird Man were bad kids or complete wackos either. But chalking Mitch’s quirkiness up to how he was raised or being a kid is naive. He marches to his own drum and comes off as not really caring that much about being deferential. He just does his Mitch thing.

  153. What Mitch wants is an extension now, thus firing Rich Paul who may not have been able to get it. If the Knicks guarantee his 4th season, Mitch gets $1.8 million and becomes an unrestricted free agent. If the Knicks extend him now, he will start his new contract next season.

    So this is about the money. The difference between $1.8 million and an extension now is about $10 million. Mitch, like all of us, wants to get paid. The only Knick making less than Mitch is Iggy, who spent last season in the G League. Even Quickley is making 500K more.

  154. Some very strange dynamics here and I’d be curious to know the inside story.

    Can’t Mitch do 4×10 anytime he wants?.

  155. Kenny Walker was a total zero on offense, no post moves, which was the way for bigs to score at his time, and no jump shot to speak of. No handle, no passing, nothing other than those dunks. Seems like Toppin is a totally different player.

  156. Z-man: But chalking Mitch’s quirkiness up to how he was raised or being a kid is naive.

    It’s naïve to think that a kid’s upbringing and environment does not impact how fast he matures.

  157. I’ve heard some rumblings that the Mitch thing may be more about endorsements than his contract extension. But it’s still weird that we’ve heard nothing about an extension this offseason. Anybody know what the deadline is to sign him to one?

  158. Owen: Can’t Mitch do 4×10 anytime he wants?

    I’m not so sure about that.

    The valuation of Mitch’s skill set is at an all-time low in the NBA right now. What he brings to the table is not all that dissimilar to Nerlens Noel – who just signed with his fourth team in seven years for the princely sum of $5 million (one shudders to think how much less Rose might have offered had NN not attended U Ky!)

    Of course, we all love Mitch. He’s the first homegrown talent in years who Knicks fans can feel genuinely excited about. So there’s that. He’s also four years younger than Noel so one could reasonably contend that he is still a work in progress while NN is a finished product. And Mitch clearly deserves more than the pittance of his current salary. All of which argues for the need to give him a substantial bump in pay. But is it worthy of a $5 MM/yr premium over and above what the Knicks just gave Noel? It’s clear that most of Mitch’s fans believe he deserves to be paid that amount. Far less clear is whether that sentiment is shared by any NBA front office right now.

  159. GoNYGoNYGo – Tanking forever: It’s naïve to think that a kid’s upbringing and environment does not impact how fast he matures.

    There are a million kids who grow up in similar circumstances that don’t have his kind of personality. I don’t think it’s an intelligence thing either…he seems very bright. If you want to chalk it up to immaturity, feel free. My guess is that he’ll still be quirky when he’s 75 years old, just like the guys I mentioned. Oakley is another example of a guy who “matured” from a quirky kid to a quirky old man. These are guys that are not destined to be leaders and are not great followers either. Doesn’t mean that they don’t understand their role or can’t play team ball. They just do it on largely on their own terms.

  160. i believe the knicks can extend mitch anytime this season with a 120pct avg salary cap. last year dillon brooks got extended right at the trade deadline.

  161. christian wood got 12 mil on the backs of half a season of work and the fact that he’s age 25…. mitch would hit FA at age 24 and he’s shown way more than wood has….

    he’s not getting 5mm/year… 24 yo unrestricted FA’s who happen to be good just dont’ happen all that often….

  162. GoNYGoNYGo – Tanking forever: These are predictions of what will happen, not what I want to happen. I don’t ever get what I want :(

    Sorry for poking fun, it’s just there’s no way Toppin plays SF in today’s league. And I know it’s not what you want, but I don’t see how Thibs thinks it’s a good lineup either. Toppin has trouble guarding PFs then there’s no way he’s guarding SFs. And no way is defensive guru Thibs putting him there. Offensively, Obi doesn’t have the ball handling skills to play SF. The lineup just doesn’t make much sense unless you’re running the triangle, which I hope to hell we’re not.

  163. Mitch has some unteachable skills at his position. He is lightning-quick and long, has great timing on blocking shots, is a very good offensive rebounder and a great finisher around the rim. But he is a pure defensive 5 and strictly a rim-runner on O. He has no chance of being a stretch-4 and there is no certainty that he will develop a Rudy Gobert-level offensive game. That kind of player is not in vogue for big dollars these days. Mitch is much closer to Noel ($5 mill) Whiteside ($2.3 mill) and McGee ($4 mill) than he is to Gobert. I suppose his agent can argue that he’s better than Capela or Jarrett Allen at this point, but his quirkiness probably will give some teams pause, and I wonder if the Capela’s and Allen’s of the world would get the same contracts now as they would have when Capela signed his.

    I’d be fine with the Knicks giving him more than his market value….$20 mill X 4 or so, I just don’t think it has a chance of happening unless he shows much more professionalism and maturity on the court than he has thus far. My guess is that they will see how he responds to tough coaching, and possibly playing behind Noel if he is resistant to improving certain things. The silly hand fouls and unproductive block chasing has got to stop.

  164. Early Bird: Sorry for poking fun, it’s just there’s no way Toppin plays SF in today’s league. And I know it’s not what you want, but I don’t see how Thibs thinks it’s a good lineup either. Toppin has trouble guarding PFs then there’s no way he’s guarding SFs. And no way is defensive guru Thibs putting him there. Offensively, Obi doesn’t have the ball handling skills to play SF. The lineup just doesn’t make much sense unless you’re running the triangle, which I hope to hell we’re not.

    Yeah, there’s a much better chance that Obi plays small-ball 5 than the 3. One thing to look out for is the offensive tempo of the team. Obi’s greatest strength is his ability to run the floor and finish. If Mitch is blocking shots and RJ and Payton are rebounding and looking to run, Obi should be releasing early and often, with Mitch running behind him to clean up his misses. Hopefully Thibs has it in him to go up-tempo, which he sort of did with Noah running the break.

  165. djphan: christian wood got 12 mil on the backs of half a season of work and the fact that he’s age 25…. mitch would hit FA at age 24 and he’s shown way more than wood has….

    Wood is a positionless forward with a polished offensive skillset and some defensive value. Some people believed he could evolve into a part of a contending team’s “Big 3.” He is a much more marketable player than Mitch is and even he got way less than what was projected…people here were talking about him getting $20 mill AAV and literally no one thought he’d be available for $12 mill AAV. If anything, that works against Mitch getting more in this cap-constrained environment.

  166. the reason noel.. whiteside and mcgee got the money they did is because of their age…. he is absolutely closer to jarrett allen based on age alone than whiteside.. mcgee or noel….

    and really…. it’s pretty baseless to call mitch unprofessional or immature…. i have no idea where that comes from… he’s hardly complained about his role or minutes…. there’s no indication that he’s lazy or doesn’t put in work… he’s not some sort of bad influence in the locker room…. he even has done a lot of charity work despite having the worst contract on the team despite being its best player….

    i have no idea where that comes from….. it’s a bit too much reading the tea leaves and projecting some sort of personality onto someone you have no clue about for my liking…..

  167. Wood is a positionless forward with a polished offensive skillset and some defensive value.

    what exactly is polished about christian wood’s offensive game?

  168. A lot of Toppin’s value in the NBA will turn on his 3pt shooting ability. That’s what makes him at minimum viable and potentially an offensive superstar. His college numbers project to around a .343 3p%. That’s not great (league average is .359 or so) but may be enough at PF (would love to know avg by position). It’s definitely enough to stretch the floor unlike Randle’s career sub-.300.

    For those who don’t trust me to calculate these numbers, Tankathon has a projected NBA 3p% which is usually in the ballpark of the numbers I get from a formula I found on the internet. Just click on the player’s name and it’s under the advanced stats. They project Toppin at .340.

  169. .340 would be pretty satisfying to me for Obi’s rookie season. That’s enough that’d it’s reasonable to hope he improves over time to league average (or even a little higher) and, even if he never improves, is a decent floor for a power forward that can do other things on offense.

  170. Early Bird: Sorry for poking fun, it’s just there’s no way Toppin plays SF in today’s league. And I know it’s not what you want, but I don’t see how Thibs thinks it’s a good lineup either. Toppin has trouble guarding PFs then there’s no way he’s guarding SFs. And no way is defensive guru Thibs putting him there. Offensively, Obi doesn’t have the ball handling skills to play SF. The lineup just doesn’t make much sense unless you’re running the triangle, which I hope to hell we’re not.

    This was not my idea and is actually an idea started by Wally Szczerbiak on MSG and which Alan Hahn delved into on the Knick Fan TV streaming channel (starts at 46:14) . It does makes sense to me. Couple it with what Randal’s reply to Marc Berman yesterday during the team media day interviews (starts at 0:45) about how the game is position-less these days. This tells me that Thibs has already planted the seeds to play both of them together. I think, at least from a marketing standpoint to start your most expensive player next to your lottery rookie. Again, the starting lineup I originally put out there was not what I desire; it’s what I predict.

  171. Obi’s greatest strength is his ability to run the floor and finish.

    This is one of the things about him that has me mildly concerned. From what I gather, he did a lot of his most efficient scoring leaking out on the break and finishing. That’s great, except no way he’s going to get away with it as often against good teams in the NBA. They are going to make him earn more of his points. He’ll get his chances, but I doubt as many.

  172. Wally is dumber than a brick and this is just the QED moment. Toppin will never play a minute at SF. If he did, it would be a sure sign that Thibodeau has a brain tumor. There is not a single second of his college reel that shows anything resembling a small forward or wing. He is a 5 in the modern NBA. He’ll play next to Noel or Mitch to hide his defense, but he’s a 5.

  173. GoNYGoNYGo – Tanking forever: This was not my idea and is actually an idea started by Wally Szczerbiak on MSG and which Alan Hahn delved into on the Knick Fan TV streaming channel (starts at 46:14) . It does makes sense to me. Couple it with what Randal’s reply to Marc Berman yesterday during the team media day interviews (starts at 0:45) about how the game is position-less these days. This tells me that Thibs has already planted the seeds to play both of them together.I think, at least from a marketing standpoint to start your most expensive player next to your lottery rookie.Again, the starting lineup I originally put out there was not what I desire; it’s what I predict.

    They may play Toppin at the 3 briefly, but it will be so obviously and plainly terrible it definitely won’t be a lineup they run much. If they do play together, Randle & Obi will play the 4/5 together. D’Antoni would run that 48 minutes a night, but I don’t think Thibs does it.

    Hahn’s inference is weird. Saying a player is versatile and athletic in no way equates to him playing the 3. That’s just something you say about your players. I take Randles statement as them playing the 4/5 together. Again, it’s possible they try and run it but there’s just no way it holds up.

  174. Z-man: There are a million kids who grow up in similar circumstances that don’t have his kind of personality…. If you want to chalk it up to immaturity, feel free.

    I’ve coach hundreds of boys and have seen my share of quirky ones. Whether it was the ideal citizen or the troubled kid, you could tell that their behavior and personality was shaped by their environment. Nature or nurture? It’s one of those deep psych/sociological debates. I believe both are a factor but extreme situations will influence outcome in some manner. And you are correct that he could have developed differently but he didn’t. He needs someone to take him under the wing. Actually, I think Woodson will be a great assistant coach to work with him.

  175. Early Bird: D’Antoni would run that 48 minutes a night, but I don’t think Thibs does it.

    LOL. Listen to more of that interview! Hahn also talks about how Thibs likes to run his starting 5 out there for 48 minutes. His rotation is notoriously short. Player complaints about Thibs is that he runs his starters into the ground.

  176. GoNYGoNYGo – Tanking forever: I’ve coach hundreds of boys and have seen my share of quirky ones.Whether it was the ideal citizen or the troubled kid, you could tell that their behavior and personality was shaped by their environment.Nature or nurture? It’s one of those deep psych/sociological debates.I believe both are a factor but extreme situations will influence outcome in some manner. And you are correct that he could have developed differently but he didn’t.He needs someone to take him under the wing. Actually, I think Woodson will be a great assistant coach to work with him.

    Fair enough. I still think some of his quirkiness is just Mitch being Mitch, and I don’t mean anything beyond minor quirkiness. In my business I’ve met all kinds of quirky kids from all kinds of backgrounds. It’s not really intended to be a negative beyond that quirky kids tend to do their own thing and their habits are hard to change.

  177. LOL. Listen to more of that interview! Hahn also talks about how Thibs likes to run his starting 5 out there for 48 minutes. His rotation is notoriously short. Player complaints about Thibs is that he runs his starters into the ground.

    It wasn’t a statement about minutes, it was that D’Atoni would play Obi/Randle together a lot at the 4/5, which Thibs likely will not.

  178. I also don’t think Thibs plays Obi at the 3, but, well, that would at least be an easy piece of evidence to show what kind of coach Thibs is in 2020, as if he tried that, then…well…you know, yikes.

  179. Addicted To The Knicks:
    My audio setup is a Kenwood KR-7600 receiver, which has a mic input to mix with the audio, an Akai quartz lock direct drive turntable, and a pair of Boston Acoustic speakers, which are all pre-1980.

    I sold off most of my vinyl due to space, kids, buying CDs, and then down sizing to retire in Florida.

    Hey, I’ve got an early 90’s set of Boston Acoustics A70 speakers in my man cave/home office audio setup with turntable. They got heavy usage for about 20 years in our living room system, then rotated back to where they are now. I refurbished them myself a few years ago and added a modest Yamaha sub for a bit more bass.

  180. GoNYGoNYGo – Tanking forever: LOL.Listen to more of that interview! Hahn also talks about how Thibs likes to run his starting 5 out there for 48 minutes.His rotation is notoriously short.Player complaints about Thibs is that he runs his starters into the ground.

    This criticism is largely overstated and not backed up by minutes data from his teams.

  181. I’m sure Obi has worked on his mobility and perimeter defense this offseason, because that is the biggest knock against him. And it’s not impossible that he’s improved quite a bit over that time, but I think it’s highly improbable Obi has got from a very bad NCAA perimeter defender to an every play SF defender in the NBA.

    I wouldn’t even go so far as to say Obi never gets to a point where he can defend NBA SFs, but I don’t think he makes that kind of improvement in one offseason, even an extended offseason.

    You can get to a 9 man rotation without playing Obi at C:

    Payton/Frank
    Bullock/Burks
    RJ/Burks
    Toppin/Randle
    Mitch/Noel

    Or run Randle at C with Toppin as I mentioned before. And the above doesn’t reflect starers/backups or minutes, just throwing out a 9 man rotation.

    Notably, Taj Gibson rarely started for Thibs but managed to get his 20-30 minutes every night. If Obi is ready to start in the NBA immediately, they’ll find a trade for Randle.

  182. Note how a #8 overall pick with two years left on his contract can’t reasonably break into that lineup. And SGA would be a 40 MPG starter in his place. What a shitshow of a franchise.

  183. This criticism is largely overstated and not backed up by minutes data from his teams.

    During his last full season with Minnesota, Wiggins was third in the NBA in total MP, KAT was 5th, and Butler was on pace to log more minutes than both of them if not for his injury. Taj was 14th, and even Jeff Teague logged 33 freakin’ MPG.

    I dunno, seems accurate.

    it’s pretty baseless to call mitch unprofessional or immature…. i have no idea where that comes from… he’s hardly complained about his role or minutes…. there’s no indication that he’s lazy or doesn’t put in work… he’s not some sort of bad influence in the locker room…. he even has done a lot of charity work despite having the worst contract on the team despite being its best player….

    Co-sign this. Everyone who leaks all of this garbage innuendo has an agenda of their own. Mitch hasn’t given us any independent reason to believe his personality creates some kind of problem. To the extent there are data points on the matter, they amount to him not complaining about being benched in favor of Enes Kanster and Taj Gibson.

  184. thenoblefacehumper: During his last full season with Minnesota, Wiggins was third in the NBA in total MP, KAT was 5th, and Butler was on pace to log more minutes than both of them if not for his injury. Taj was 14th, and even Jeff Teague logged 33 freakin’ MPG.

    I dunno, seems accurate.

    Wiggins played all 82 games and averaged 36.3 mpg. Butler was at 36.7. Towns was at 35.6. 9 players averaged 16+ mpg. Are those extraordinary numbers? Doesn’t sound like it to me.

  185. thenoblefacehumper: Co-sign this. Everyone who leaks all of this garbage innuendo has an agenda of their own. Mitch hasn’t given us any independent reason to believe his personality creates some kind of problem. To the extent there are data points on the matter, they amount to him not complaining about being benched in favor of Enes Kanster and Taj Gibson.

    I think “unprofessional” and “immature” are not particularly fair, but the way he left college, what was said about the way he left the Team USA select team, and having gone through multiple agents, are fair game. Thibs made a comment about professionalism, which seemed mostly geared at his approach to improving his game to better impact winning. I think too much is being made about it. If people are offended by me referring to him as quirky and flaky, whatever.

  186. Wiggins played all 82 games and averaged 36.3 mpg. Butler was at 36.7. Towns was at 35.6. 9 players averaged 16+ mpg. Are those extraordinary numbers? Doesn’t sound like it to me.

    I think so. Minnesota was the only team with 3 guys in the top-15 for MPG. They were also the only team with 5(!) players reaching 30 MPG, with Teague averaging the lowest number of minutes in that group with 33.

    You see similar patterns in his Chicago days. You can debate how much this stuff matters, but the empirics are there.

  187. I think “unprofessional” and “immature” are not particularly fair, but the way he left college, what was said about the way he left the Team USA select team, and having gone through multiple agents, are fair game. Thibs made a comment about professionalism, which seemed mostly geared at his approach to improving his game to better impact winning. I think too much is being made about it. If people are offended by me referring to him as quirky and flaky, whatever.

    I was talking about the Thibs stuff and any other innuendo coming from the team. I don’t think you said anything offensive, though I personally still don’t care to make inferences about people’s personalities with the information vacuum seen here.

  188. Z-man: Wiggins played all 82 games and averaged 36.3 mpg. Butler was at 36.7. Towns was at 35.6. 9 players averaged 16+ mpg. Are those extraordinary numbers? Doesn’t sound like it to me.

    He certainly plays guys more minutes than many coaches, but he has a normal-sized rotation and playing time varies from year to year. In 1915, Butler played 38.7 mpg and Gasol played 34.6 mpg. no one else averaged more than 30.6 and 10 guys averaged 19.6 or more. He certainly doesn’t regularly play mutiple players 40+ mpg, and Butler is kind of an outlier in that regard. And he doesn’t run a super-short rotation.

  189. In 1915, Butler played 38.7 mpg and Gasol played 34.6 mpg.

    Are… are Butler and Gasol immortal?

  190. Hey all new poster love the site. Wanted to ask you all a question. What do you think of Kenneth Faried as a comp to obi toppin? I know obi is taller and leaner and can shoot some. I think kenneth with a shot is a very good ball player. I also think good point guard play is a must to get the most out of obi. We need somebody to get him the ball on the fast break and on cuts to the rim. Hoping payton dsj frank rj can get him the ball when needed. Ewing was my favorite player growing up and also loved me some Anthony Bonner. Thanks all

  191. I don’t see it. I mean, they’re both above the rim players, to be sure, but that’s the only real similarities that I see.

  192. I don’t see Obi as leaner than Ken when he was a Nugget. Houston-era Faried was a bit bigger, but Obi’s got two inches and at least 20 pounds on him. The Amar’e comparison is there because of that big power dribble move and the baseline drives from a back-to-the-basket position. If Faried ever had either of those, I’ve somehow blocked it from my memory. He was always a lob threat, but his dribble moves were nothing to get excited about. And that’s why he topped out as a very-good role player, worthy of his draft slot and then some, but never a big difference maker on the highest levels.

    Amar’e is the obvious comparison. And that’s something to get excited about, given how few offensive talents we’ve found in the draft in the last two decades.

    Wiggins played all 82 games and averaged 36.3 mpg. Butler was at 36.7. Towns was at 35.6. 9 players averaged 16 mpg. Are those extraordinary numbers? Doesn’t sound like it to me.

    They are extraordinary in today’s game, yes. Absolutely they are.

  193. knicksfaninmaine:
    Hey all new poster love the site. Wanted to ask you all a question. What do you think of Kenneth Faried as a comp to obi toppin? I know obi is taller and leaner and can shoot some. I think kenneth with a shot is a very good ball player. I also think good point guard play is a must to get the most out of obi. We need somebody to get him the ball on the fast break and on cuts to the rim. Hoping payton dsj frank rj can get him the ball when needed. Ewing was my favorite player growing up and also loved me some Anthony Bonner. Thanks all

    Welcome Knicksfaninmaine!

    I think there’s a few issues with the comparison. Faried was an elite rebounder and Toppin is below average at best. Moreover, while Toppin does feed off of good passing, he should also be able to create his own shot, dribble a bit, and as you pointed out he can shoot. Toppin should be able to score 25 pts a night. Whether or not you want him scoring 25 a night is another question.

  194. Alan: Are… are Butler and Gasol immortal?

    Rumour has it they were also the first to use nets instead of peach baskets.

  195. BTW, I voted Obi for ROY for a few reasons:

    1)Homerism, and a need to believe in something good happening for this dumb team.
    2)He’s older and more polished than any of the other contenders, while also having the freakish athleticism that’ll make all the highlight reels. He’s also at a position where it’s easier to make an early impact than if he was a guard.
    3)While Randle is for the moment blocking him, I don’t think Julius is long for this team, in part because…
    4)If you believe that Rose really wanted to make a splash in free agency but couldn’t because the prices were unacceptable (and/or guys like FVV didn’t want to come here), then from an optics standpoint, the best way for his first year to look good is if Obi looks good. Which I expect will mean a desire to feature him on offense, especially once our record sinks to the point where the play-in game isn’t happening.

  196. Amare is the most rosy comparison except for the age, and hopefully the knees and the 3pt shot.

  197. Amare is the most rosy comparison except for the age, and hopefully the knees and the 3pt shot.

    Yeah, as you note, the age is the biggest problem with the STAT comp. STAT was already second-team All-NBA in his age 22 season.

  198. Knick fan not in NJ: The description of Toppin unfortunately reminds me of Kenny “sky” Walker.

    Obi-One and Skywalker do have the same training.

    Yes, I will be making this joke every other game all season long.

  199. With Mitch/Noel, Obi and (pick a scrub) we sort of have a mutation of the DAJ-Blake-CP3 lob thing going on.

  200. Wally is among the dumbest homers on the air. He’s truly terrible.

    And it looks like MSG is setting him up to be Clyde’s replacement in the booth. It’s going to be so bad when Walt retires.

  201. My issue with the Amare comparisons, although it does make some sense, is that Amare played C and was the primary pick and roll option. Obi playing PF will make it more difficult to be the first PnR option unless we get a C who can shoot threes (Spellman?).

    Also, Amare played against slow-footed post up Cs who couldn’t keep up with his speed and athleticism. Today’s C’s are better suited to keep up with Obi and it doesn’t seem like Obi can match them on the defensive end. So in Stat’s case his offense offset his defense, I don’t think Obi’s does the same.

    In short, I just don’t think a smaller, less athletic Amare is a viable NBA option. Doesn’t mean Obi is useless, I just don’t see him playing the same way as Amare and being successful.

  202. Are the Knicks practicing now?

    Mitch has some unteachable skills at his position. He is lightning-quick and long, has great timing on blocking shots, is a very good offensive rebounder and a great finisher around the rim.

    The list of guys Mitch’s size who can finish a play like this is really short. Getting Mitch a pick and roll attempt is probably the best shot in the NBA outside of uncontested shots

  203. Early Bird: Amare played C

    It varied year to year in PHX…he played 45% if his minutes at PF and went back and forth year to year.

    Early Bird: Obi playing PF will make it more difficult to be the first PnR

    I don’t see why that’s true….in fact, it certainly isn’t. There is no positional requirement to be the primary PnR option.

  204. Early Bird: Also, Amare played against slow-footed post up Cs who couldn’t keep up with his speed and athleticism. Today’s C’s are better suited to keep up with Obi and it doesn’t seem like Obi can match them on the defensive end. So in Stat’s case his offense offset his defense, I don’t think Obi’s does the same.

    The 3-pt-heavy NBA has much more room for rollers to operate and shorter guys for rollers to finish over. The kick-out for corner 3’s makes it deadly to help from the wing.

    The defense is a concern. It likely would have been a concern for Amare today. But I agree that the key for Obi is to be so good offensively that his D becomes something you live with (and frankly that is true for a bunch of offensive stars.) He surely needs to be a star on the offensive end to justify the pick.

  205. Z-man: It varied year to year in PHX…he played 45% if his minutes at PF and went back and forth year to year.

    I don’t see why that’s true….in fact, it certainly isn’t. There is no positional requirement to be the primary PnR option.

    There’s no positional requirement, but you’re getting hung up on the wrong issue. Whoever is defending Mitch will be standing in the paint helping to shut down the pick and roll. This was the primary critique last year of having Randle on the roster.

    He did play PF, but he was more effective as a C. Also, Obi is not Amare. He’s a worse version of Amare.

  206. Early Bird: There’s no positional requirement, but you’re getting hung up on the wrong issue. Whoever is defending Mitch will be standing in the paint helping to shut down the pick and roll. This was the primary critique last year of having Randle on the roster.

    He did play PF, but he was more effective as a C. Also, Obi is not Amare. He’s a worse version of Amare.

    I think you’re getting caught up on the wrong issue. Your analysis of the PnR is just wrong. And I don’t know why you think Amare was more effective as a C…it’s clearly a situational thing.

  207. Z-man: I think you’re getting caught up on the wrong issue. Your analysis of the PnR is just wrong. And I don’t know why you think Amare was more effective as a C…it’s clearly a situational thing.

    I’m not going through the whole thing, but his best years in OBPM were both at C, 4.1 & 4.2. His best years at PF were half that, 2.1 & 2.0 OBPM.

    In response to the PnR claim, there’s a reason the NBA plays 4 or 5 players behind the 3pt line and run the PnR instead of running two bigs in the paint.

    I’ll leave it there.

  208. Amare’s positional variations are more about D’Antoni’s offense than about him being better at one position or the other.

  209. Z-man:
    Amare’s positional variations are more about D’Antoni’s offense than about him being better at one position or the other.

    Sure.

  210. howdy knick fan in maine, hope all is well for you…

    had a chance to chat with someone recently from close by portland…it sounds like an absolutely beautiful area…

  211. I think I comped Obi as a cross of Faried and someone else at some point. But Brian is right, I think the Faried comparison works mostly because of the dominant mid major man child aspect of it. Their playing styles are pretty different on the offensive end although they have a similar energy. They both are bad on defense but for different reasons.

    And welcome to the board!

    What are the extension considerations for the Knicks with Mitch?I guess I am in la la land here but shouldn’t signing him to a cheapish extension be a major priority? Or is it a risk if he gets injured next year. To me they should use their leverage while they have it.

    Re Wally, he’s such a doofus. My consistent impression listening to him is first, I can’t believe what a good offensive basketball player he was. (Stats don’t lie). Then I think, why the hell should that matter at all? And then I think about him replacing Clyde and it makes me upset. It’s a real welter of emotions.

    He’s not the worst dude but he also is just so corporate. I love Clyde for a lot of reasons but one of them definitely is the way he refuses to suck up to the c-suite.

  212. And it looks like MSG is setting him up to be Clyde’s replacement in the booth.

    clyde is a really big reason i’ve been tuning in the last few years…

    him and mike together is “maybe” my favorite all time new york announcing crew…it’s tough, but if you forced me to choose – it’s be hard to ever pick any team over phil rizzuto and bill white…just like mike and clyde they were a perfect compliment to each other…

    but, i like clyde a lot…super observant, not too shy of being critical, doesn’t really let himself ever sound too upset…i don’t get a “homer” vibe from him at all…i mean – honestly, can you imagine anyone painting an overly bright picture of knick games for the majority of the last couple of decades…

    i’ll tell ya, clyde is also one of the reasons i soured on both julius and elf last year…they were supposed to lead us but kept crushing the team with turnovers and bad defensive gambles…yeah, he dogged them pretty good throughout the year, and, he was right…

  213. Owen: What are the extension considerations for the Knicks with Mitch?I guess I am in la la land here but shouldn’t signing him to a cheapish extension be a major priority? Or is it a risk if he gets injured next year. To me they should use their leverage while they have it.

    I’m not sure Mitch is that cheap, and he probably wants to test FA if we lowball him. It makes more sense to re-sign him in the offseason using bird rights after we sign some big name free agents. Any reasonable extension will be more than the cap hold to retain his bird rights. Once we have his bird rights we can just offer him the same or more than anyone else and exceed the cap. So unless Mitch really hates the Knicks, we should be able to retain him and add more FA talent by letting his contract expire.

    We have Mitch next year too, so I don’t think it’s too urgent.

  214. I guess so.

    I wish basketball was like baseball where it’s easy to lock in young superstars to long term deals and more middling talent too. Although, that said, it’s a terrible system for players.

  215. Owen:
    I guess so.

    I wish basketball was like baseball where it’s easy to lock inyoung superstars to long term deals and more middling talent too. Although, that said, it’s a terrible system for players.

    I mean, Mitch is about as locked in as a young player can get. Let me clarify, Mitch can be extended either this year or next year. It just gives us more cap flexibility.

    As a second round pick, normal rookie extension rules don’t apply.

    There’s more on it here.

  216. I honestly wonder what Obi’s standing reach is – would not surprise me if it is greater than expected. He has a Langston Galloway body – ie. zero neck. He’s 6’9″ but with a normal height neck he’d be 6’10.5″ or 6’11”.

    Also wonder whether Quickley’s otherworldly shooting will translate. He was a pretty good pull-up shooter in college. Pair him with Obi’s finishing + short roll passing could really be a problem. Drop coverage? Quickly shoots the pull-up 3. Switch? I’ll take Obi in the post against a guard any day. Hedge/trap a la Steph Curry coverage? Then Obi’s shooting pick and pop and ability to pass out of the short roll = lots of Mitch dunks.

    Man I am so over-optimistic. I know this year will end up with 21 wins and Obi averaging something like 14 and 7 with horrific defense, but one can always dream a few weeks before the season starts.

    Re: our beat writers:
    1) I am pretty sure Berman’s source was Mills +/- Perry. He really hasn’t had any idea what is going on since the changeover to Rose.

    2) Love Macri and his optimism, but it definitely doesn’t seem like he has any real idea either.

    Popper seems maybe most connected?

    These are not bad things. Better to have an opaque front office.

  217. I think Obi’s passing will surprise a lot of people. I don’t think they should use him in a “point-Randle” way, but he can probably execute either end of the pick and roll better than anyone else on the team already. I think Obi could be a more-above-the-rim Lamar Odom at his peak, which would be pretty neat.

  218. Before we extend Mitch we should probably make sure hasn’t always dreamed of playing beach volleyball, doing the long jump, the high jump, the triple jump etc.. He may change his mind about basketball any day now . :-)

  219. ess-dog, the clips I’ve seen of Obi’s passing have been very impressive. Again, not that he’s a point forward type, but he’s also not a ball stopper. He either goes quickly to the basket or he hits the open man, sometimes with stunning accuracy and speed.

  220. Given I’ve never actually seen Obi play a game, I’m on the fence about whether we got a very good player that primarily fell because it’s more fashionable to draft younger players with perceived upside or we got a player that was beating up on younger inferior competition and is going to be overmatched by the speed of the NBA and unable to execute a lot of what he was able to do against younger inferior weaker players. Maybe I should just assume the middle.

    I can’t wait to see him play.

    I will say playing him at the SF position seems ridiculous and if we are playing him at the C position, we are doing something else wrong.

    We needed a stretch PF to give Mitch and RJ space. That’s his job period!

  221. passing is one of obi’s bright spots and passing in a big man generally leads to a higher probability of success which is the sole reason why i even rated him as high as i did…

    the offense dayton ran is very much like a pro style offense… lots of motion.. lots of pick n pop/pick n roll opportunities and lots of high low which put obi in positions to make decisions and he generally made the right one….

    the problem is that thibs’ offense is probably not as sophisticated as the dayton offense…. it’s very guard centric although we’ll see what changes he’s made…. obi’s probably not going to be showcasing his passing early on anyway which is rare for a rookie big but the fact that he has it in his arsenal bodes well for his long term viability….

  222. djphan:
    passing is one of obi’s bright spots and passing in a big man generally leads to a higher probability of success which is the sole reason why i even rated him as high as i did…

    the offense dayton ran is very much like a pro style offense… lots of motion.. lots of pick n pop/pick n roll opportunities and lots of high low which put obi in positions to make decisions and he generally made the right one….

    the problem is that thibs’ offense is probably not as sophisticated as the dayton offense…. it’s very guard centric although we’ll see what changes he’s made…. obi’s probably not going to be showcasing his passing early on anyway which is rare for a rookie big but the fact that he has it in his arsenal bodes well for his long term viability….

    Is it one of his bright spots? He had more turnovers than assists both years in college and he only put up 1.8 and 2.2 assists/game. I see his passing brought up a lot but I don’t think it’s as good as people are making it out to be.

  223. djphan: the problem is that thibs’ offense is probably not as sophisticated as the dayton offense

    I’m withholding judgment on this. I don’t think if Thibs of running a specific offense. He certainly didn’t do anything all that imaginative in Minny, but in Chicago he had Noah running the ball up the middle of the floor in transition and although Rose did his thing he also ran lots of stuff through Deng. He may have been behind the times in Minny but I don’t think he’s married to one style of offense. He’s had a lot of time to regroup and analyze what other teams are doing, and I’d be surprised if he hasn’t learned a thing or two about what is working today and what isn’t. He also has much less control over personnel and team direction than he did in Minny, which is a really good thing in my opinion. If the point is that he isn’t going to go full metal D’Antoni, I’m in complete agreement with that.

  224. vincoug: Is it one of his bright spots?He had more turnovers than assists both years in college and he only put up1.8 and 2.2 assists/game.I see his passing brought up a lot but I don’t think it’s as good as people are making it out to be.

    Passing isn’t just about assists, it’s about giving up the ball when he’s doubled or otherwise out of position. He was not a ball-stopper.

  225. ess-dog:
    I think Obi’s passing will surprise a lot of people. Idon’t think they should use him in a “point-Randle” way, but he can probably execute either end of the pick and roll better than anyone else on the team already. I think Obi could be a more-above-the-rim Lamar Odom at his peak, which would be pretty neat.

    Lamar was a very good ball-handler for his size. I don’t think Obi has that kind of point-forward glue-guy aptitude, he’s more of a power player in the Julius Randle mode. Maybe more like Blake Griffin, who wasn’t much of a passer at first but got much better over time.

  226. Is it one of his bright spots? He had more turnovers than assists both years in college and he only put up 1.8 and 2.2 assists/game. I see his passing brought up a lot but I don’t think it’s as good as people are making it out to be.

    he was in the 2.7/2.8 per 40 range which is pretty good…. assists to turnovers don’t really mean all that much in college…. turnovers are a part of a young players’ profile no matter the level of comp…. it’s much better to try and make a mistake than not … low turnovers generally mean they weren’t handling the ball all that much…. of course that depends on the context…. hasheem thabeet with 6 to’s per 40 would probably be a red flag….

    he’s not jokic… he’s not draymond… he’s not bringing the ball up and running the break…. but it’s good that he’s not just a blackhole with the ball…. catching and not immediately putting your head down for a shot attempt is very tough for a lot of big men…. amare being a prime example…. having a certain level of passing and awareness at each position helps the offense work towards the best shot….. so having some at the 4 or 5 spot helps a team immensely….

  227. I’m withholding judgment on this. I don’t think if Thibs of running a specific offense. He certainly didn’t do anything all that imaginative in Minny, but in Chicago he had Noah running the ball up the middle of the floor in transition and although Rose did his thing he also ran lots of stuff through Deng.

    from what i remember noah doing the fast break thing was more of a noah thing than a thibs thing…. what thibs did to kat in minny was pretty reflective of how he normally uses his bigs….

  228. Hey knickfaninmaine! I’m in Falmouth just north of Portland. Where are you? How’d you become a Knicks fan? I’m from NYC originally. Was a little kid in the early 70s champ years. Branded for life. Diggin life in Maine. Moved here a few years ago after a long stint in Honolulu which I also loved. I work in Boston. Nicer town (except for the sports teams) than I wanted to admit. Was telecommuting a lot even before covid. Anyhow, nice to see another Mainer here even though I don’t post often.

  229. I’m trying to figure out what I expect our rotation to be. In my experience when you gat a new coach, he usually doesn’t change who starts, he just run the offense differently. I think Thibs will value Randle just as much as our other coaches have and he will start. I think Mitch will probably beat out Noel for center and Payton will start at point guard, assuming he’s healthy. The two and the the three are hard. I think the teams strength is going to be defense more than offense and I’m guessing Thibs will try to have a reasonable defense because he’ll know no matter what he does the offense won’t be great and will almost certainly be bottom ten and likely bottom five. So I’m guessing Barrett and Bullock for the other two starters.

  230. TheClashFan: Hey, I’ve got an early 90’s set of Boston Acoustics A70 speakers in my man cave/home office audio setup with turntable.They got heavy usage for about 20 years in our living room system, then rotated back to where they are now. I refurbished them myself a few years ago and added a modest Yamaha sub for a bit more bass.

    current set up is yamaha amp, marantz cd player, sirius xm receiver also into the amp as well as my laptop with 100k songs in the itunes…all pumped out of a couple of monitor audio speakers i bought about 12 yrs ago…also have an NAD turntable and tons of vinyl…just to lazy most of the time to pull the albums out…

    i hope and pray that obi turns into a good/great nba player…it will go a long way into giving me some reason to watch this season…

  231. djphan: from what i remember noah doing the fast break thing was more of a noah thing than a thibs thing…. what thibs did to kat in minny was pretty reflective of how he normally uses his bigs….

    In 2014-15 Noah led the team in total assists, was 2nd in assists per 36 at 5.5 (Rose was at 5.9). It was far from a Noah thing, it was an integral part of a 50-win team’s offense. Pau was also an excellent passer on that team, had the same AST% as Butler.

  232. i was talking about noah on the break… he even did that on the knicks….. him doing that is really something that he does more than something that gets drawn up…. and that came about cause rose got hurt and he wanted to relive his florida hype days… yes he was also doing the high low thing on the bulls….. and pau has been a great passer for his entire career… but they didn’t get too involved until rose got hurt and they needed to generate offense however they could get it…..

    thibs’ handling of kat in minnesota was well documented and forgoing running the offense through him in lieu of jamal crawford, andrew wiggins and butler was his biggest failure…. given the recency i would probably say that’s more the norm of how he handles things but we’ll see…..

    i do know that it’s not as sophisticated as dayton’s offense…. dayton’s offense is much more similar to san antonio’s and dallas’s and portand’s offense…. and that kind of runs circles vs anything thibs has been attached to..

  233. Hey Unreason Geo and Owen. I lived most of my life in Long Island New York during the 80s and 90’s. Followed my Parents up to Maine a few years later. I reside in Bangor Maine now. Maine is a very beautiful area. What i do miss is a good deli. I will always be a Knicks Yankees Rangers Jets fan. Thanks all hope everyone is safe and keep up the great work.

  234. knicksfaninmaine:
    Hey Unreason Geo and Owen. I lived most of my life in Long Island New York duringthe 80s and 90’s. Followed my Parents up to Maine a few years later. I reside in Bangor Maine now. Maine is a very beautiful area. What i do miss is a good deli. I will always be a Knicks Yankees Rangers Jets fan. Thanks all hope everyone is safe and keep up the great work.

    I spent 4 years (college) in Lewiston, Maine. I grew up in Paramus, NJ and my parents were from Jerome Ave. area of the Bronx. I stop in Bangor 4 times per year (to and from my cottage in Nova Scotia) to eat at Sea Dog Brew Pub. Yes sir! good delis are not a happening thing in Maine. Same with pizza and most ethnic foods although things have improved since the 1970’s.

  235. I think it’s a huge mistake to look at anything Thibs has done in the past and project it forward.

    Imo, he’s a very good coach and serious student of the game. He understand modern basketball. But he’s going to tailor the offense to the skills of our players not some system or modern theory of the correct wat to play basketball.

    He’s also not going to try to maximize some individual player’s stats. He’s going to try to maximize the “team” output.

    Maybe that means Mitch will shoot some mid range jump shots. Sure, some people will scream that doing that is stupid and hurting poor’s Mitch’s TS% and BPM. But he’ll do it IF AND ONLY IF there is a net benefit to the overall team offense.

    We may have a terrible team unless some of the young players take a big step forward, but imo we are FINALLY in very good hands from a coaching perspective.

  236. It’s not like we really have a choice but to give Thibs a chance to show he’s learned some things, but he did this same “I’ve learned” tour prior to his Minnesota stint and then promptly did all of the same things that made him a dicey coach in Chicago. Letting Wiggins and Crawford take more shots than KAT, only to see KAT drastically increase his usage without any drop off in efficiency post-Thibs, is one of the worst looks I’ve ever seen from a coach. Evaluating coaching is often hard, but that’s the rare coaching-related datapoint that just screams “what the hell were you doing?”

    Anyway, it’s hard to tell if this somewhat bizarre story about Doc Rivers pushing Austin away from his own team is true or just a planted favor from Doc to his son, but if it is true it bodes well for Rivers potentially being worth something to a contender at some point.

  237. For now, I’m drinking the Thibs kool-aid. Johnnie Bryant as his lead assistant makes perfect sense as a young coach with player development chops. More generally, the best coaches have excellent balance on their staff. Tom made his chops as an assistant coach and was an integral part of some very well-coached teams in that capacity.

    Thibs has been a winning coach pretty much everywhere he’s gone. He made some big mistakes in Minny and paid the price for it. That shouldn’t be what defines his career as a coach thus far. He was clearly a terrible GM and his approach to that team was deeply flawed. But by and large he’s been a top-tier coach in this league and is highly respected among players and peers.

  238. thenoblefacehumper: It’s not like we really have a choice but to give Thibs a chance to show he’s learned some things, but he did this same “I’ve learned” tour prior to his Minnesota stint and then promptly did all of the same things that made him a dicey coach in Chicago.

    What made him a dicey coach in Chicago? His team won between 45 and 62 games every season, and he left after a 50-win campaign. When he left, the team went down the tubes and the management team that he quarreled with was exposed as incompetent. My recollection is that his mea culpa from Chicago had little to do with on-the-court coaching.

    It’s easy to be dismissive of his success and to evaluate him based on his most recent tenure and some tendencies on offense. To me , that’s no more valid (and probably even less valid) than evaluating D’Antoni based on his tenures with the Knicks and Lakers. Bottom line is that he has a career .589 win percentage and also had enormous success as an assistant. He deserves some latitude.

    And I say this as someone who would have been fine sticking with Mike Miller, or hiring Atkinson.

  239. you kind of have to judge him based off of his recent tenure…. he hasn’t coached the bulls for 5 years…. and this is the least talented team he’s ever coached which is similar to what he had in the latter part of his wolves tenure….

    it is actually the same thing as d’antoni…. we know d’antoni’s shtick doesn’t work without a very good pg…. if he has one of the best pg’s in the nba and you get shooting around you’ll probably have a very good team….. thibs for what he’s worth… has really only shown success in very narrow ways too…..

    that’s not too big of an indictment on thibs… most coaches are like that… but in terms of giving him the benefit of the doubt…. you kind of have to ask why…..

  240. djphan: you kind of have to judge him based off of his recent tenure….

    Well I guess Pops is a mediocre coach as well. I mean, his team most recently finished with a losing record.

  241. pop has over a 20 year track record with the same franchise and has been successful with many different kinds of personnel…

    thibs has about a 10 year track record but about half of which was with Minny… how do you just throw that out?

  242. Thibs biggest mistakes in Minny were not coaching. They were of the GM variety. Butler didn’t leave because he didn’t like the way Thibs was coaching. He left because he believed KAT and Wiggins did not have the attitude and work ethic on both sides of the ball to play winning basketball.

    They gave up a lot to get Butler and he walked. After that, if you have to choose between KAT and Thibs, the owner is typically going to go with a player like KAT.

    We’ll have the same problem here if we have the wrong players. He’s going to be demanding. If they are not up to it we should get rid of the players and not the coach.

    The usage stuff is all nonsense. I’m not going to debate that again.

  243. Pop is arguably the greatest coach of all time along with Phil and Auerbach.

    If you are evaluating your coach, you don’t start by comparing him to gods. You compare him to other mortals.

  244. djphan: it is actually the same thing as d’antoni…. we know d’antoni’s shtick doesn’t work without a very good pg…. if he has one of the best pg’s in the nba and you get shooting around you’ll probably have a very good team….. thibs for what he’s worth… has really only shown success in very narrow ways too…..

    To say that he has only shown success in very narrow ways is simply not true. Thibs’ 62-win team was nothing like the last team he coached in CHI that won 50 games and went to the second round and met the same fate that every EC non-LeBron met.

    If by “very narrow ways” you mean that he is only able to coach a defensively-oriented team, or only wins when he has good players, why is that an indictment?

    As to his record with MIN, he led the team to their first playoff berth in forever and they had the 4th best offensive rating in the league. The following year, MIN went 19-21 before he was fired. A disgruntled Jimmy Butler played in only 10 of those games and they wen 3-7 in those, meaning they went 16-14 without him. That’s bad coaching?! After he was fired, then went 17-25 and have sucked ever since.

    The main criticism I hear is that he let Jamal Crawford shoot too much and KAT should have shot more. That’s fair, but there’s little to suggest that the team underachieved because of that. Thibs has also acknowledged that the league has evolved towards faster-paced 3pt heavy offenses.

    Suffice it to say that if the Knicks are in the bottom of the pack in pace and in 3pt shot attempts, the criticism will have been justified. But he’s been a winning coach, is respected if not revered by his ex-players, and is highly respected in coaching circles. The narrative that he is and will always be some narrow-minded non-innovator is in and of itself narrow-minded.

  245. djphan: thibs has about a 10 year track record but about half of which was with Minny… how do you just throw that out?

    This is actually a flat-out distortion, which is characterizing your posts more and more. He was in Chicago for 5 years and MIN for 2.5 years. Is that “about half?” How can anything you say be trusted or valued if your math is either that terrible or you are going out of your way to be intellectually dishonest? And that’s not even considering his success as an assistant coach.

    His winning % as a coach is similar to Spoelstra, Chuck Daly, and Jerry Sloan. I guess they sucked too because they had a couple of mediocre seasons or made some tactical errors along the way. I mean look at Sloan’s failure with Deron Williams!

    And it’s not like he took over juggernauts in CHI and MIN.

  246. Begley:

    Tom Thibodeau was asked if anything – or any player – stood out to him in the first practice today. He didn’t name a specific player but said, of the group, “We are young and we are athletic, so I want to try to take advantage of that.”

    Thibs teams historically do not play fast or try to generate points off turnovers. So this may be an easy way to see if the old dog has learned some new tricks.

  247. This is actually a flat-out distortion, which is characterizing your posts more and more.

    wow forgive me for going off memory… tell me… what would happen if we gave your posts to same kind of grief over precision?

    if you got something to say… you should say it…. it’s pretty clear you got some sort of problem with me if youre now just questioning my integrity…. I really have no patience for passive aggressiveness… if you wanna resolve it just what you mean ….

  248. KnickFanInCelticLand: I spent 4 years (college) in Lewiston, Maine.I grew up in Paramus, NJ and my parents were from Jerome Ave. area of the Bronx.I stop in Bangor 4 times per year (to and from my cottage in Nova Scotia) to eat at Sea Dog Brew Pub.

    Hi other Mainers: I got my Masters at UMaine, lived in Orono for another 12 summers working at UM, and eventually bought a house in Millinocket, which was an exceptionally bad decision.

  249. the numbers are a bit recalcitrant here. it’s clear that kat’s production immediately exploded post thibs. and they did so, unusually, in both both volume AND efficiency. it’s also clear that thibs did run a much less “modern” offense, with less player movement. he did run a fair amount of semi-spread pnr, often sticking towns in the corner as a shooter in those sets. he had an odd predilection for initiating the offense through taj in the post, and i am talking about cases where kat is on the floor. he certainly did more wiggins iso with kat on court than saunders.

    on the other hand, the overall offense took only a small jump post thibs. in 17-18, they averaged 115/100 in the thousand plus minutes KAT played without butler. pre-firing, they were at about 114 in those minutes. in the 1.5 yrs under saunders, they were closer to 116 (again, with KAT on). on the other hand, shot quality improved dramatically and the thibs sample may have benefited from lucky 3pt shooting (around 37pct vs in the mid 34s). some may argue this is not luck (ie some 3pt shots have higher ev than others). i looked a bit more closely at this and my unsure guess is that it is likely luck. iow, i think the best evidence indicates that thibs was a meaningful offensive detriment to the wolves vs saunders w kat in the floor. this of course did not prevent kat/butler lineups to put down 118/100, a fantastic result.

    the game has changed a lot since thibs coached the bulls. even in a good case, information content from coach-win correlations is quite low thanks to confounders and missing counterfactuals. over a period of so much offensive style change it is surely even lower. my take after listening to him a fair bit in his off year and watching the wolves is that he probably didn’t have the flexibility he thinks/says he does. but sometimes things change.

  250. TheClashFan: Hey, I’ve got an early 90’s set of Boston Acoustics A70 speakers in my man cave/home office audio setup with turntable.They got heavy usage for about 20 years in our living room system, then rotated back to where they are now. I refurbished them myself a few years ago and added a modest Yamaha sub for a bit more bass.

    My Boston Acoustics are the A120 series. I refoamed the passive radiator and they still sound fine.

    I might add a Bose subwoofer to the system to give it more bass.

  251. @knickfaninmaine @KnickFanInCelticLand @PerverseOsmosis
    There is excellent, though not always cheap, deli in Maine!
    Do you not know:
    Roses’ on Forest Ave in Portland – Explicitly connected to Russ and Daughters on Houston St in NYC. R&D was my go to back in the day. Roses’ is good – great smoked whitefish for example – but a bit precious and too expensive.
    Forage on Washington Ave in Portland and somewhere in Lewiston – can’t remember the street. Fantastic bagels, lox, and related stuff and great atmosphere. Reasonably priced.
    Scratch – Preble street in SoPo – Excellent bagels and all kinds of baked goods. Reasonably priced.
    Purple House in Yarmouth – awesome Montreal style bagels (just as good as NY stlye – sue me) and baked goods. And cute as a button. Expensive but worth it.
    Charcuterie in Unity Maine – insanely good deli meats made by a former special forces officer turned high end chef who converted to Amish – not kidding
    The Cheese Iron US 1 in Scarborough – full on awesome deli. Everything you could want.
    Morse’s Sauerkraut in Waldoboro somewhere – amazing German deli

    Through my deep knowledge of these establishments I have unfortunately achieved formidable gravitas since moving here.

  252. djphan: wow forgive me for going off memory… tell me… what would happen if we gave your posts to same kind of grief over precision?

    I’d expect that I’d get called out for it and would apologize…and feel embarrassed for making such a glaring error.

    djphan: if you got something to say… you should say it…. it’s pretty clear you got some sort of problem with me if youre now just questioning my integrity…. I really have no patience for passive aggressiveness… if you wanna resolve it just what you mean ….

    It’s the second time in a few days that you sloppily distorted numbers to suit your narrative. Nothing passive-aggressive intended…it’s a direct calling out on that. If you have a problem about me having a problem with you doing that, that’s your problem.

  253. Addicted To The Knicks: My Boston Acoustics are the A120 series. I refoamed the passive radiator and they still sound fine.

    I might add a Bose subwoofer to the system to give it more bass.

    Those A120s are big boys. I actually bought a set of A60’s right out of college in 1988 (all I could afford at the time), but a few years later they were stolen (along with our whole stereo, TV, etc.) when our apartment was broken into one day when my wife and I were at work.

    We did have renter’s insurance, so I took the opportunity to put in some additional $ to upgrade to A70’s. Added a subwoofer shortly after that, and they served us well in our early home surround setup.

  254. @TheSteinLine
    Rockets coach Stephen Silas says James Harden did not attend the team’s first practice today as Houston had hoped

    Silas says that Harden is expected to participate in an individual workout later tonight

    All is well!

  255. Silas says that Harden is expected to participate in an individual workout later tonight

    There’s footage circulating around Twitter of him in a club in Vegas that appears to be from last night, so I hope that workout is quite literally individual. Like, he does it alone in his living room.

  256. ptmilo: on the other hand, the overall offense took only a small jump post thibs. in 17-18, they averaged 115/100 in the thousand plus minutes KAT played without butler. pre-firing, they were at about 114 in those minutes. in the 1.5 yrs under saunders, they were closer to 116 (again, with KAT on). on the other hand, shot quality improved dramatically and the thibs sample may have benefited from lucky 3pt shooting (around 37pct vs in the mid 34s). some may argue this is not luck (ie some 3pt shots have higher ev than others). i looked a bit more closely at this and my unsure guess is that it is likely luck. iow, i think the best evidence indicates that thibs was a meaningful offensive detriment to the wolves vs saunders w kat in the floor. this of course did not prevent kat/butler lineups to put down 118/100, a fantastic result.

    Not sure what to make of this, beyond the obvious point that Thibs should have had KAT shooting more and Crawford+Wiggins shooting less, which is pretty much stipulated by all parties to the Thibs debate here. If you’re suggesting that it had a negligible effect on offensive efficiency but that was probably due to a season’s worth of lucky 3pt shooting, that’s kind of curious, especially when moving on to a more enlightened coach resulted in the team losing at a significantly greater rate…especially in the games without Jimmy Butler.

    I’m not defending the tactical decision, just the overall strategic results. Thibs’ teams have generally done as well or better than expected in terms of wins and losses. I don’t get why he’s being characterized as overly benefitting from “luck” or “selective personnel” or “era”.

  257. It’s the second time in a few days that you sloppily distorted numbers to suit your narrative. Nothing passive-aggressive intended…it’s a direct calling out on that. If you have a problem about me having a problem with you doing that, that’s your problem.

    yea i don’t appreciate anyone questioning my integrity and yes that is your problem because you’re being an asshole…..

    i’ve said i was wrong on the things that i was wrong about and i asked… so what? i’m off by a year on players… what did that change? i’m off by a year on thibs experience? what did that change?

    i’m asking you…. and i’m also asking you what grand conspiracy i’m behind that i’m trying to fudge the facts because thibs fucked my wife or something? do you think it’s because i’m targeting you? do you think i NEED to feel right? what exactly am i distorting to fit my narrative and for what purpose?

    i’m really curious because you seem to be imagining something that’s not really there….. and you’re being an asshole for no good reason…. so i’ll give you an opportunity to apologize before i start actually reciprocating….

  258. djphan: yea i don’t appreciate anyone questioning my integrity and yes that is your problem because you’re being an asshole…..

    i’ve said i was wrong on the things that i was wrong about and i asked… so what?i’m off by a year on players… what did that change?i’m off by a year on thibs experience? what did that change?

    i’m asking you…. and i’m also asking you what grand conspiracy i’m behind that i’m trying to fudge the facts because thibs fucked my wife or something?do you think it’s because i’m targeting you?do you think i NEED to feel right?what exactly am i distorting to fit my narrative and for what purpose?

    i’m really curious because you seem to be imagining something that’s not really there….. and you’re being an asshole for no good reason…. so i’ll give you an opportunity to apologize before i start actually reciprocating….

    Feel free to reciprocate as you see fit. I stand by my words. If there is something I feel is worthy of an apology, you’ll be the first to know.

  259. If you’re suggesting that it had a negligible effect on offensive efficiency but that was probably due to a season’s worth of lucky 3pt shooting, that’s kind of curious, especially when moving on to a more enlightened coach resulted in the team

    three point shooting is just the automatic first variable most analysts look at to try to account for the inescapable noise endemic in samples of this size, which is between 1/2 and 2/3 of a season in minutes, bc it has been convincingly shown to be unusually noisy over said samples, adjusted for everything you could imagine. it is the natural first step anyone would take in trying to compare coarse grained results like total team ppp for 2-3k minutes. of course, many other variables also change and are subject to noise so anyone who thinks they can draw dispositive conclusions from just this data (let alone wins and losses) is an optimistic narrator. but, like i said, all things considered my best guess is that it is likely that thibs hurt the wolves offensively. i also bet that he would at the time via o/u which i think but am not sure was a slight edge.

  260. Unreason:
    @knickfaninmaine @KnickFanInCelticLand @PerverseOsmosis
    There is excellent, though not always cheap, deli in Maine!
    . . .
    Through my deep knowledge of these establishments I have unfortunately achieved formidable gravitas since moving here.

    Thanks for the great list, and alas, when Unity is as far north as it goes, that leaves a lot of the state to cover. I always thought Orono could support a good one, but there isn’t enough summer population between it and Bangor to make it financially feasible. Also, Pat’s Pizza has a deathgrip on that town.

    I am not living there anymore, but the triple play of Bowdin, Bates, and Colby are always on my job search. Hope you all still have electricity.

  261. Thibs’ teams have generally done as well or better than expected in terms of wins and losses.

    based on what? why are you making shit up?

  262. The Jets tried SO hard to gift Trevor Lawrence to the Jags, but David Carr just wouldn’t let them. Amazing.

  263. PerverseOsmosis: Thanks for the great list, and alas, when Unity is as far north as it goes, that leaves a lot of the state to cover. I always thought Orono could support a good one, but there isn’t enough summer population between it and Bangor to make it financially feasible. Also, Pat’s Pizza has a death grip on that town.

    I am not living there anymore, but the triple play of Bowdin, Bates, and Colby are always on my job search. Hope you all still have electricity.

    Got electricity back. How about you? Outage put a huge wrench in my proposal writing – up against a deadline. Need to get back to that now.

  264. Alan:
    The Jets tried SO hard to gift Trevor Lawrence to the Jags, but David Carr just wouldn’t let them. Amazing.

    That was like a reverse-Ndour

  265. Today Jets and Raiders fans both rooted for the game and outcome that we saw.

    Owen: Thibs had some mildly positive things to say about Frank. (Macri quote) Knicks Twitter will be happy.

    The remarks came as a reply to an Ian Begley question today at the post-practice media session. I took his replya as “How can I answer this without ripping the kid.”

    The question about Obi-1 playing positions other than the 4 came up again. Obi provided the PC “Coach is smart and will put me in a position to succeed” answer but the question was specific about playing the 5 and Obi-1 volunteered adding the 3. I see it coming. Just my sense.

  266. ptmilo:
    three point shooting is just the automatic first variable most analysts look at to try to account for the inescapable noise endemic in samples of this size, which is between 1/2 and 2/3 of a season in minutes, bc it has been convincingly shown to be unusually noisy over said samples, adjusted for everything you could imagine.it is the natural first step anyone would take in trying to compare coarse grained results like total team ppp for 2-3k minutes.of course, many other variables also change and are subject to noise so anyone who thinks they can draw dispositive conclusions from just this data (let alone wins and losses) is an optimistic narrator.but, like i said, all things considered my best guess is that it is likely that thibs hurt the wolves offensively.i also bet that he would at the time via o/u which i think but am not sure was a slight edge.

    If you look at the 4 factors in 2017-18, they were first in TOV% (a positive in an offense with less ball movement, one that would mitigate at least some inefficiency), 4th in OREB% (i would guess that this is more likely when your best rebounding big is closer to the basket rather than at the 3-pt line), and 3rd in FTA/FGA (possibly because KAT et. al. were more likely to draw fouls shooting 2’s than 3’s). They were 19th in 3PT% and 13th in eFG% so nothing seems outlier-ish there. I think a valid argument can be made that there were well-considered trade-offs in play…and that they resulted in a team being 4th in offensive efficiency even while being 24th in pace and 30th in 3PTr. Turn the ball over less, get more offensive rebounds, and shoot more FTs than nearly every team in the NBA (they were 3rd in the league in made FTs and shot 80%) and that mitigates shooting fewer 3’s and playing at a slower pace.

  267. It may not even make sense to compare Minny under Thibs and after Thibs.

    There was problem between Thibs and the players (especially KAT). That’s why he was canned.

    It’s kind of like saying Melo and the Knicks played better under Woodson than D’Antoni. Maybe, but Melo refused to do what D’Antoni wanted and it was causing all kinds of problems in a split locker room. So MDA said “either he goes or I go”. Bye bye Mike. lol

    When the Knicks the played better under Woodson, it wasn’t necessarily because he was a better coach. It was because Melo had the coach he wanted, was allowed to play his style, and gave a better effort on both sides. The locker room was also not at war anymore. It was united under Woodson.

    Stats don’t tell you things like that.

    Maybe Thibs handled KAT’s personality badly. I do not know, but my guess is Butler is telling the truth when he say Thibs wasn’t the problem. He simply lost the team and wasn’t getting an all out effort from some of the players who did not like him and wanted him out. That’s why he was canned.

    Stats are what happened, not why they happened.

  268. Thibs’ teams have generally done as well or better than expected in terms of wins and losses.

    I’d expect that I’d get called out for it and would apologize…and feel embarrassed for making such a glaring error.

    well it took two seconds for us to find out that was bullshit….

  269. The Jets tried SO hard to gift Trevor Lawrence to the Jags, but David Carr just wouldn’t let them. Amazing.

    How does Gregg Williams call a Cover 0 blitz there?! It was literally a prevent situation!

    The Jets coaches are so bad it feels foolish to think they lost on purpose, but I can’t think of any other reason you run that defense. I think they did the same thing a play or 2 beforehand where Carr overthrew an open guy in the end zone. I’ve watched every game this season and I’m still SHOCKED at how incompetent that was.

    The Kotitea taems didn’t even lose games like THIS.

  270. djphan:
    well it took two seconds for us to find out that was bullshit….

    When I called you our I provided evidence…did you? I could easily support my claim, but your thin-skinned self is so lamely flailing that it isn’t worth my time.

  271. and while we’re looking at the trees.. .the forest says that wolves under mitchell were also 12th in offense and they were 11th under thibs the year after… then got to 4th with butler…. the players have a large influence on how an offense performs which should go without saying….

    but i’m sure something on the bref page shows something about thibs good coaching acumen that you can tease out…. suffice to say if you want to judge actual coaching the numbers aren’t going to help you all that much even in the most ideal situations…. while you do that.. maybe the rest of the board could move on to something more interesting….

  272. I think you guys are going to be pleasantly surprised by Thibs. The team may suck because the players are bad and he may have some players doing things that aren’t correct according to the “gospel of advanced metrics” but it won’t be because he didn’t read the gospel or doesn’t understand it. It will because he analyzed the situation more deeply than boxscore stats and concluded the overall team output would be better another way. That doesn’t mean he won’t ever make a mistake, but if you think he’s an idiot that doesn’t understand the math behind taking 3s or which player has the higher TS% you are simply wrong.

    Imagine MDA when he used to sacrifice defensive rebounds to leak out on fast breaks. The stats said the defense suffered, but he knew he gained more on offense than he lost on defense with those specific players so he did it anyway. The game is deeper than a few stats.

  273. When I called you our I provided evidence…did you? I could easily support my claim, but your thin-skinned self is so lamely flailing that it isn’t worth my time.

    you keep saying i’m flailing… am i making things up? are these coming from thin air? i don’t get it….

    what specifically am i making up? this is a pretty pointed question please answer so i can help you… you’re saying i’m thinned skinned but i’m not the one on the attack here….

    so please… i’d like to resolve this so we can stop wasting everyone’s time…. you’re like twice my age… why am i more mature than you on this?

  274. GoNYGoNYGo – Tanking forever: The remarks came as a reply to an Ian Begley question today at the post-practice media session. I took his replya as “How can I answer this without ripping the kid.”

    The question about Obi-1 playing positions other than the 4 came up again. Obi provided the PC “Coach is smart and will put me in a position to succeed” answer but the question was specific about playing the 5 and Obi-1 volunteered adding the 3. I see it coming. Just my sense.

    Yeah I agree with you on the Frank comment. At best if comes across as the most generic description of what Frank does well. He definitely didn’t seem excited about Frank. Regardless of your evaluation of Frank, if he can’t beat out Rivers then that’s a problem. Whether that’s due to coaches and teams undervaluing Frank or Frank being bad at basketball, he’s not long for the league.

    Obi question: Yeah, that question was clearly setup to see if Obi would throw in SF as a position he can play. If we do run that lineup, it will blowup in our faces so quickly that it won’t be worth considering.

  275. knicksfaninmaine:
    Hey all new poster love the site… Ewing was my favorite player growing up and also loved me some Anthony Bonner. Thanks all

    Hi there knicksfaninmaine, welcome! And the 2020 KB rookie class gets bigger and bigger… still 25 days till the end of the year, so come on lurkers it’s time to get in… do it folks, this is fun*! :)

    * – and the greatest Knicks forum of all !! ;)

    Ewing was a beast, also my favorite, but Starks was really close… the dunk is a moment for the ages!

  276. I mean, we certainly have cared more about the Knicks and every single player on the roster than Thibs have before taking the job, so I wouldn’t care too much about what he says at the start of training camp.

    I don’t know if its because my life has taken a sharp turn towards the positive of if it’s just optimism without reason, but I am feeling kind of excited about us. No terrible moves in an off-season, a rookie that we can be excited about without having to do too many mental gymnastics, a roster that if you squint kinda makes sense on paper and a coach that, while not my preferred choice, at least has had a good level of success. Of course, I don’t think this team will be great or anything, I expect a bottom 6-7 record, but we’ve had to endure Phil Jackson off-seasons, so much ineptitude and stupidity that something feels different to me. The fact that we didn’t end up with Westbrook or Wall and we really haven’t done a very stupid, obviously bad thing in a while might be bamboozling me, but I’ll remain cautiously optimistic at least until the season starts.

    Also, I’m happy that new posters and long time lurkers are starting to post here more often! You’re all very welcome, I’ve lurked for years before I got confident enough to post and I can say it’s still the best place to discuss sports by far.

  277. As you guys keep saying “until Mitch fouls out” i did a split of his career in half seasons. I think the personal fouls won’t be a problem, but check for yourselves.

    Mitchell Robinson 2018-20 stats (by half season)

    It’s funny to see the numbers of the 2nd half of his rookie year, those are really good numbers and you guys were making comps with Wilt… oh, good times! He will be a good player, but certainly not like Wilt Chamberlain, that’s (almost) for sure! :P

  278. Audio equipment, Maine Taverns, Knicks News, Street Fighting, Optimist Realizations, Frank, Rugby and Lurking Rookie dreams!

    I’m telling you guys….this ain’t just a forum
    This is THE REAL SHIIIT!
    Hang on! Only a few days left for live action

  279. Audio equipment, Maine Taverns, Knicks News, Street Fighting, Optimist Realizations, Frank, Rugby and Lurking Rookie dreams!

    I’m telling you guys….this ain’t just a forum
    This is THE REAL SHIIIT!
    Hang on! Only a few days left for live action

    Fun fact: I teach beginner and intermediate English lessons on the side to complement my terrible scholarship, and I’ve often told students to read the discussions here as a way to get used to colloquial writing in a non controlled environment. More than a few of them came with pretty interesting questions, like what the hell does VORP mean for example, and one of them linked me a post by JK47 with band names and wanted help to find those records here in Brazil lol

  280. I watched the Thibs link. If there’s one one thing I’ve learned from him it’s that he knows how to answer questions without feeding meat to the wolves in the press. For example, Berman asked him twice about the $18M in remaining cap space and the first time he ignored it and the second time he gave generalities about how there are several ways to improve a team and you always have to consider all of them. On Frank, he answered the question truthfully without giving anything away. I don’t think you can draw a conclusion about Frank from that any more than you can read your future from tea leaves.

  281. Bruno Almeida: Fun fact: I teach beginner and intermediate English lessons on the side to complement my terrible scholarship, and I’ve often told students to read the discussions here as a way to get used to colloquial writing in a non controlled environment. More than a few of them came with pretty interesting questions, like what the hell does VORP mean for example, and one of them linked me a post by JK47 with band names and wanted help to find those records here in Brazil lol

    LOL, that’s amazing, Bruno! But i advise you to place a disclaimer saying that if they decide to be Knicks fans you don’t have any responsability whatsoever of the misery (sports) life they’ll have from now on! :P

  282. #Fun fact: I teach beginner and intermediate English lessons on the side to complement my terrible scholarship, and I’ve often told students to read the discussions here as a way to get used to colloquial writing in a non controlled environment. More than a few of them came with pretty interesting questions, like what the hell does VORP mean for example, and one of them linked me a post by JK47 with band names and wanted help to find those records here in Brazil lol#

    LOL
    If i knew that I’d been more decent!lol

  283. Early Bird: Obi question: Yeah, that question was clearly setup to see if Obi would throw in SF as a position he can play. If we do run that lineup, it will blowup in our faces so quickly that it won’t be worth considering.

    I disagree with you on that but I won’t go as far as to say it’ll be a raging success. Toppin is very athletic. He proble will be on the defensive side of the ball. Even though I’ve watched some of his game, I’m not a scout. He’s athletic and can shoot the 3-ball. Randle, Mitch and Toppin could make for a difficult front court offensive matchup for other teams.

    On the defensive side the question is drive, mechanics and athleticism. I think he has the drive and Thibs won’t let him slack off. He certainly needs better footwork and to learn wing defense but I believe he has the athleticism. I may be wrong, but it’s an interesting experiment and since we all know this team isn’t going anywhere, it’ll be interesting to see how it works out. Remember that RJ showed he wasn’t just an SG last year. He ran some point and played SF. Frank was moved from PG to SG. Knox is being thought of as more of PF now in some circles.

  284. Knick fan not in NJ:
    I watched the Thibs link. If there’s one one thing I’ve learned from him it’s that he knows how to answer questions without feeding meat to the wolves in the press.For example, Berman asked him twice about the $18M in remaining cap space and the first time he ignored it and the second time he gave generalities about how there are several ways to improve a team and you always have to consider all of them.On Frank, he answered the question truthfully without giving anything away. I don’t think you can draw a conclusion about Frank from that any more than you can read your future from tea leaves.

    Yeah, I wouldn’t read too much into it either way. I definitely wouldn’t consider it a sincere compliment. But I also think you find more glowing things to say about Frank if you intend to use him.

    Given how short training camp and preseason are, I have to think they have their rotations more set than they’re willing to let on.

  285. Knick fan not in NJ:
    I watched the Thibs link. If there’s one one thing I’ve learned from him it’s that he knows how to answer questions without feeding meat to the wolves in the press.For example, Berman asked him twice about the $18M in remaining cap space and the first time he ignored it and the second time he gave generalities about how there are several ways to improve a team and you always have to consider all of them.On Frank, he answered the question truthfully without giving anything away. I don’t think you can draw a conclusion about Frank from that any more than you can read your future from tea leaves.

    I agree with you and don’t know how Thibs feels about Frank from that interview. I was contradicting the “Thibs had some mildly positive things to say about Frank. (Macri quote) Knicks Twitter will be happy.” statement.
    As for the Berman question, Thibs smiled when it was asked the second time. That I could read as him thinking OK, I better give some sort of reply” which he did. And yes, it was the standard “We look for ways to get better every different way, every single day” reply.

  286. LOL, that’s amazing, Bruno! But i advise you to place a disclaimer saying that if they decide to be Knicks fans you don’t have any responsability whatsoever of the misery (sports) life they’ll have from now on! :P

    Ahhaha most of them don’t care one bit for sports (most of my students are either trans or other LGBT people in vulnerable situations, which kinda defeats the point of making extra money, I know, but I can’t help it) so it was super funny to see them get confused by basketball terms and our incredibly lengthy discussion about the most obscure aspects of it. But that was really the point, throwing them in an environment where they don’t know the lingo and have no real interest in the main topic, so they can get a bit more used to get out of our little gay bubble.

  287. I think the main reason for optimism is that it feels like the organization has become an actual organization. When KP criticized the organization “from top to bottom” he was pretty balls-on accurate. CAA and Kentucky ties aside, Rose seems to understand the fundamentals of a reasonable (even if not ideal) rebuild strategy and seems to have the power to execute it as he sees fit…which was sorely lacking in the past. He seems to understand that he needs to listen more than he speaks, to defer to experts, to properly value assets on both sides of a transaction in a given market situation, to resist the temptation to make a big splash, to hire a solid, experienced coach but to surround him with structures to contain his more questionable impulses. And most importantly, to act professionally (often by just keeping quiet) and transition away from the circus atmosphere of the past. The hardest part of the last 20 years is the laughingstock feel of the entire organization. Dolan is Dolan, but if there is any hope of the Knicks becoming a well-run franchise in spite if him, this is probably the best chance for it to happen. It can all come crumbling down any minute, but we’ve dodged a bunch of bullets thus far (unless you consider hiring Thibs and drafting Obi bullets!)

  288. 1-2 days ago i watched Alan Hahn on a discussion at YouTube saying that he doesn’t believe in Frank and also that DSJ will be the starting point guard at the start of the reg.season.

    Not believing in Frank is more than justified but predicting DSJ as a starter?
    Does he know something we can’t even imagine?

  289. I’m sensing too much optimism, so for us to get back to what we know better…
    «Of the 72 players to take at least 150 free throws in their rookie season since the 2010-11 season, only 24 have shot less than 70 percent from the free throw line. Only seven of those 25 were guards or wings, and they are a collection of non-shooters: Dennis Smith Jr., Elfrid Payton, Josh Jackson, Emmanuel Mudiay, Ben Simmons and RJ Barrett.», in The Athletic.

  290. cybersoze:
    I’m sensing too much optimism, so for us to get back to what we know better…
    «Of the 72 players to take at least 150 free throws in their rookie season since the 2010-11 season, only 24 have shot less than 70 percent from the free throw line. Only seven of those 25 were guards or wings, and they are a collection of non-shooters: Dennis Smith Jr., Elfrid Payton, Josh Jackson, Emmanuel Mudiay, Ben Simmons and RJ Barrett.», in The Athletic.

    It’s worth noting that of the 2 players to never play for the Knicks Simmons is good and Jackson put up reasonably good numbers last year, albeit in very limited minutes.

  291. #«Of the 72 players to take at least 150 free throws in their rookie season since the 2010-11 season, only 24 have shot less than 70 percent from the free throw line. Only seven of those 25 were guards or wings, and they are a collection of non-shooters: Dennis Smith Jr., Elfrid Payton, Josh Jackson, Emmanuel Mudiay, Ben Simmons and RJ Barrett.», in The Athletic.#

    The Optimist:
    That’s Plenty of Room for Improvement!

  292. Someone who actually watched the Giants game, did we actually play well or what the hell just happened? Seems like it’s past time for me to start paying attention to them this year.

  293. Bruno Almeida: Fun fact: I teach beginner and intermediate English lessons on the side to complement my terrible scholarship, and I’ve often told students to read the discussions here as a way to get used to colloquial writing in a non controlled environment. More than a few of them came with pretty interesting questions, like what the hell does VORP mean for example, and one of them linked me a post by JK47 with band names and wanted help to find those records here in Brazil lol

    I really can’t imagine being thrown into KB as a way to learn English. But I don’t speak any other languages even remotely close to fluently, so what do I know.

    We definitely have a range of posting styles. I’m fairly confident how I post changes depending on whether I’m on my phone or laptop.

  294. Early Bird: Someone who actually watched the Giants game, did we actually play well or what the hell just happened? Seems like it’s past time for me to start paying attention to them this year.

    Joe Judge.

    Coach of the Year.

    That is all.

  295. Early Bird:
    Someone who actually watched the Giants game, did we actually play well or what the hell just happened? Seems like it’s past time for me to start paying attention to them this year.

    The coaching staff really game-planned well on both sides and the O-line facilitated a run-first style in the second half that led to the win. If the Knicks have a find from the scrap heap of unsung players as effective as Wayne Gallman has been lately then we will be pretty happy.
    The defense was also quite good. Patrick Graham has done an excellent job of scheming. And Jason Garret had a plan for Colt McCoy to mostly take short drops when he passed. McCoy completed just enough to keep drives going.

  296. Yeah, Judge and Patrick Graham have been terrific, and Garrett has rebounded from an abysmal first few weeks of the season. The Giants have one of the worst rosters in the league, talent-wise, but in the NFL you can cover for that with scheme better than you can in some other pro sports.

  297. Bo Nateman: Patrick Graham has done an excellent job of scheming.

    Being on the west coast, I’ve watched a lot of Seahawks games. That was the most confused – and ineffective – that I’ve seen Russell Wilson in any game this season. The D basically held one of the NFL’s most high octane offenses without a TD until late in the fourth Q. Amazing win.

  298. I really can’t imagine being thrown into KB as a way to learn English. But I don’t speak any other languages even remotely close to fluently, so what do I know.

    We definitely have a range of posting styles. I’m fairly confident how I post changes depending on whether I’m on my phone or laptop.

    The students in questions were mostly complaining that they feel the English they learned in traditional classes before my classes was too pure, and that they felt it didn’t help them at all when they went to talk with friends or in other colloquial settings. It was obviously just a side thing, as much as I love it here I wouldn’t really use it as class work, but more because it was the one place I could remember where colloquial discourse is mixed with some pretty great minds lol, and has none of the outright hateful shit they would find everywhere on the internet. It can’t be understated how easy it is to stumble upon hate these days on random online forums and such, even relatively moderated places like reddit, and that can be extremely sensitive to trans people specially.

    Not to go too off topic, my position is very similar to what Z-Man said. I’m typically a huge pessimist and I’m convinced we’ll never be truly good under Dolan, but the team is definitely feeling more like an actual franchise instead of the running joke of the NBA, and that has to be a positive.

  299. Not sure quite how to navigate the cognitive dissonance inherent in saying for years that coaches don’t matter and then arguing that Thibs will be a disaster.

    It likely won’t matter but the look and feel of Atkinson would have been so much better.

  300. Owen:
    Not sure quite how to navigate the cognitive dissonance inherent in saying for years that coaches don’t matter and then arguing that Thibs will be a disaster.

    It likely won’t matter but the look and feel of Atkinson would have been so much better.

    I think the fear is that Thibs is a clunky overbearing win-now guy who will bench the kids in favor of mediocre vet mercenaries and pressure management to get his kind of players which aren’t suited for today’s game and we’ll wind up with a team of lousy shooting defensive specialists and semiretired ex-Bulls on our way to a parade of 45-win second-round exits.

  301. I’m not worried at all about Thibs benching the youngsters as his time in Minnesota shows he did exactly the opposite, he overplayed them no matter how good (Towns) or bad (Wiggins) or mediocre (LaVine) they were. If anything I’m more worried about him giving undeserved minutes to Barrett and having him go lazy like Wiggins did, but of course they’re not the same player etc and RJ seems like a motivated kid with a good mind. The other young players like Knox, Iggy, Frank etc, to me, are not supposed to get minutes for free anyway, so if they don’t show enough to get on the team then they shouldn’t be playing anyway.

  302. Knew Your Nicks: 1-2 days ago i watched Alan Hahn on a discussion at YouTube saying that he doesn’t believe in Frank and also that DSJ will be the starting point guard at the start of the reg.season.

    Not believing in Frank is more than justified but predicting DSJ as a starter?
    Does he know something we can’t even imagine?

    Hmmm. Good question. I just went and did a comparison of the two. If I was just looking at the stats I would definitely start DSJr over Frank. Where am I wrong about that? What empirical data suggests that Frank is a better choice at PG than DS Jr?

  303. GoNYGoNYGo – Tanking forever: Hmmm.Good question. I just went and did a comparison of the two. If I was just looking at the stats I would definitely start DSJr over Frank. Where am I wrong about that? What empirical data suggests that Frank is a better choice at PG than DS Jr?

    Pretty sure he’d just be surprised that either one would start over Elfrid Payton. I’d guess most of us would be happy to start a young player over Payton, it signals we’re developing our young talent. But nobody expects anyone other than Payton to start at PG.

    If it came down to it, I’d probably give Rivers better odds to start than DSJr.

  304. I would expect that nothing will be decided until after the first preseason game. Then they will home in on a starting lineup and bench rotation as the preseason unfolds. Honestly, I don’t think there’s a single lock for a starter, with RJ being the closest, followed by Randle, Payton, and Mitch in that order. The biggist question mark is who will start at the 2/3 with RJ? Rivers, Bullock, Burks and Frank are all candidates.

  305. Bruno Almeida: I’m not worried at all about Thibs benching the youngsters

    Same, although Towns was pretty established by then, but yeah. I still think a roster-balancing trade is possible, maybe they give up Randle, a young guard and a couple of 2nds for Hield or something like that.

  306. Casey already said that Hayes is going to start for Detroit. I hope I don’t have to envy the Pistons now.

  307. The next step for this off-season to remain encouraging is mostly to keep flexibility. Don’t pull the trigger on lateral moves, specially because this season will be a damn mess. Covid will force schedule changes, some teams might have outbreaks, lose players to injuries, etc, it will be a prime opportunity to trade our most useful players to wannabe contenders for value. Noel, Rivers maybe even Burks, Bullock and Randle could all fall in this category depending on how they perform. If we leave this season with more picks than we have and the kids get good time for development, it will be a great success.

  308. Dink: How does Gregg Williams call a Cover 0 blitz there?! It was literally a prevent situation!

    The Jets coaches are so bad it feels foolish to think they lost on purpose, but I can’t think of any other reason you run that defense. I think they did the same thing a play or 2 beforehand where Carr overthrew an open guy in the end zone. I’ve watched every game this season and I’m still SHOCKED at how incompetent that was.

    The Kotitea taems didn’t even lose games like THIS.

    If the NFL were to investigate and determine that Jets DC Greg Williams was guilty of throwing the game there at the end, I would not blink an eye.

    It’s either that or maybe the worst defensive play call I’ve ever seen. He left a bad UDFA corner in single, fairly tight coverage, and got burned. No deep safety help. Raiders had like 13 seconds left and no time outs. Wow.

    Whatever, the Jets tank is the greatest King Tiger Tank of them all. I hope Trevor Lawrence is worth it.

  309. I agree, Bruno. There’s definitely some truth in what Thibs said, though. They should be thinking every day about ways to improve the team so long as it’s consistent with a long-term plan. Given that there isn’t a single vet on the roster right now with more than a $4 million commitment beyond this year (Randle), the possibilities are endless. Problem is that those possibilities are both good and bad and we’re so used to the bad that it’s hard to imagine that the next albatross isn’t just around the corner.

  310. I would love to move one of our veterans for picks but I think we should keep Noel. He is pretty young and we should try to sign him long term. He is the ideal backup for Mitch.

    After Barrett, Toppin, Mitch, and Frank, Noel is the player I would want to keep the most.

  311. Early Bird: If it came down to it, I’d probably give Rivers better odds to start than DSJr.

    A rumor is that Payton and DS Jr are leading candidates to run the point. It’s a new rumor so let’s let it ferment but don’t count out DS Jr.

    TheClashFan: If the NFL were to investigate and determine that Jets DC Greg Williams was guilty of throwing the game there at the end, I would not blink an eye.

    I would because Greg Williams has a lot to lose by losing. Fact is his reputation is being dragged through the mud with each passing loss. I don’t see him getting another DC job in the NFL after this disaster, losing Adams and now Maye going after him. Gase is a problem but the defense is responsible for leading the league in personal fouls.

  312. I would love to move one of our veterans for picks but I think we should keep Noel.

    more than any of the moves we did make this off-season, i’m most happy with the nerlens signing…

    then again, i was pretty happy with the elf and julius signings last year…

  313. keep doing good work bruno, i’m sure your students are very thankful to have you in their lives…always makes me smile to hear one of our own doing some meaningful stuff…

  314. The nice thing is that most of the team is playing for a new contract in one way or another, so there shouldn’t be any problem motivating anyone. I think this team is going to compete very hard every night, which is all I can ask for at this point.

    The roster cuts coming up in a couple of weeks should tell us something as well.

  315. okay maine folks – so, full disclosure here, the real interest i have in imagining life in maine is the wildlife…i mean, i’m not expecting it to be like cicely alaska with moose roaming through the town, but – i would think there are quite a few critters out and about…

    one of the points of conversation i had with the person by portland (they live close by a lake to the northeast of the town) was the presence of wildlife in the area…

    one of the things i appreciated most about living in the monterey area was all the wildlife hanging out doing their thing in the woods close by…

    pretty much all i see around here wildlife wise is some hawks and coyotes, not so surprisingly, not a lot of stray cats and possums in the area…saw a dear a while or so ago while doing some hiking, poor thing looked anemic…

    wow, unreason, that was some seriously detailed comments regarding food places – i wanna hang and eat with you :)

  316. #A rumor is that Payton and DS Jr are leading candidates to run the point. It’s a new rumor so let’s let it ferment but don’t count out DS Jr.#

    During the same discussion AHahn also said that he’d like to ask DSJ a tough question off the record something like “Do you really like basketball?” cause he’s giving him the impression that he’s not having much fun while playing…

  317. keep doing good work bruno, i’m sure your students are very thankful to have you in their lives…always makes me smile to hear one of our own doing some meaningful stuff…

    Thank you so much for the kind words as usual Geo, it’s my biggest passion really, it’s been killing me that I’ve had to stop doing it for a while because I need to focus on my own stuff. But yeah, I’m going back to that as soon as possible when I finish this diabolical PhD.

  318. I have zero confidence in any positive report about DSjr beyond he’s gotten back to baseline, which is like a bottom 20-30 NBA player rather than bottom 5. If he shows something in preseason, I’ll keep an open mind.

  319. Knew Your Nicks:
    #A rumor is that Payton and DS Jr are leading candidates to run the point. It’s a new rumor so let’s let it ferment but don’t count out DS Jr.#

    During the same discussion AHahn also said that he’d like to ask DSJ a tough question off the record something like “Do you really like basketball?” cause he’s giving him the impression that he’s not having much fun while playing…

    Yep he definitely wasn’t playing with energy and joy last year. Nobody except for the coaching staff has seen them play. Word is that DSJr came in ready to compete after spending 5 months working on his shooting and conditioning with Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf. That’s what someone that is motivated does. This is a potential contract year for him. We’ll see.

  320. Hey Geo, it’s not Maine or California, but check this out: http://www.carnivorespotter.com

    Shows what kind of stuff is actually living in our proverbial and literal back yards. A lot more than you think. Check it out for just say, bobcats. Or bears. Lots to play with. Sort of like one of those NBA stat sites, but with teeth. Sharp pointy ones.

    NYC is tougher what with all the bridges, but there’s still a lot of stuff, and as soon as you step into Westchester…

  321. I won’t lie. Last season DSJ was my favourite target for mock darts. His game was beyond ridiculous most times and the only ones who could “amuse” me like him were Ellington with his airballs, Randle with his spins and Knox with some of his obknoxious decisions.
    But DSJ was the Undisputed King of farce.
    I don’t have high hopes for him but i really wish to be completely wrong.

  322. No one enjoys playing like sh*t. If DSJ start the season with a few dunks cue Hahn with the “he’s regained his passion for the game!” line.

  323. Until I see it in a game, I’m treating DSJr learned to shoot the same as “he’s in the best shape of his life.”

    People said it about DSJr last year. We know how that turned out.

  324. nicos:
    No one enjoys playing like sh*t. If DSJ start the season with a few dunks cue Hahn with the “he’s regained his passion for the game!” line.

    Maybe DSjr can salvage a Nate Robinson-type career, but even that would be a reach. He’s just been so bad at NBA basketball it’s hard to project anything positive for him.

  325. DSJr just looked like a totally broken player, 0 confidence whatsoever, unable to do literally basic stuff on the court. Obviously I’d love to see him turn it around, he’s got the athleticism of a NBA player but unfortunately still nothing else. I have no hopes at all, but like every player on a rookie contract, just keep him and let’s see what he can do, there’s no point in letting him go or anything like that.

  326. Let’s all Knicks fans remember what a PG really looks like…

    From wiki:
    “The point guard (PG), also called the one or the point, is one of the five positions in a regulation basketball game. A point guard has perhaps the most specialized role of any position. Point guards are expected to run the team’s offense by controlling the ball and making sure that it gets to the right player at the right time. Above all, the point guard must understand and accept their coach’s game plan; in this way, the position can be compared to a quarterback in American football, a catcher in baseball or a playmaker in soccer (association football). They must also be able to adapt to what the defense is allowing and must control the pace of the game.
    A point guard, like other player positions in basketball, specializes in certain skills. Their primary job is to facilitate scoring opportunities for their team, or sometimes for themselves. Lee Rose has described a point guard as a coach on the floor, who can handle and distribute the ball to teammates. This involves setting up plays on the court, getting the ball to the teammate in the best position to score, and controlling the tempo of the game. A point guard should know when and how to instigate a fast break and when and how to initiate the more deliberate sets. Point guards are expected to be vocal floor leaders. A point guard needs always to have in mind the times on the shot clock and the game clock, the score, the numbers of remaining timeouts for both teams, etc.”

  327. If DSJ learns to shot a little- just knock down open 15-17 footers at a decent clip- and consistently competes on defense he’ll probably make a pretty decent backup. I doubt he does and won’t lose any sleep if he doesn’t but I think his ceiling is more like Reggie Williams (borderline starter) than Nate.

    I realize that’s the kind of horrible no-win small distinction that we’ve all been forced to make far too often by this crappy team- fans of other teams get to imagine their young guys turning into all stars whereas we debate whether any of our young guys (sans Mitch) is worthy of actually earning a rotation spot let alone being a quality starter.

  328. PG =A coach on the floor
    The only problem with our pgs was that they were closer to Fiz than to Pop on the floor during last season…

  329. (back to optimism!)

    Who cares about PGs anyway?
    It’s now a positionless game after all!
    We’ll be fine with our combos!

  330. nicos:
    If DSJ learns to shot a little- just knock down open 15-17 footers at a decent clip- and consistently competes on defense he’ll probably make a pretty decent backup. I doubt he does and won’t lose any sleep if he doesn’t but I think his ceiling is more like Reggie Williams (borderline starter) than Nate.

    The comparison to Nate is based more on career trajectory and less on style of play. Nate was overhyped based on raw athleticism and some talent, and for a while there was hope he’d mature and get to the next level. It never happened but he was able to have some moments in a journeyman career, especially with the Bulls. Dennis Smith Jr. has the same kind of raw athleticism and possibly even more talent, but he seems to have a lot of the same issues with maturity, focus, understanding of what it takes to consistently contribute to winning. There comes a point where raw athleticism and talent just aren’t enough, especially for PGs.

  331. The issue with the comparison to me is that Nate had the necessary irrational confidence that small players like him need to have to make it to the NBA. He was the scrappy underdog, etc, I know it sounds cliche but it makes all the difference, DSJ just looks defeated and confused every time he’s on the court, fearful of making mistakes. You guys know I’m not a big intangibles guy, but in cases like this where its so evident, it plays a big part.

  332. Hey Geo, it’s not Maine or California, but check this out: http://www.carnivorespotter.com

    awwwww, that’s way cool raven…dang, i’m real surprised by the number of black bear sightings…coyotes just go everywhere…

    i remember the first time i saw an owl – i gotta be honest, i had no idea they could get so damn big, i remember being a little freaked out when it happened, you look at them, they look at you, and there it is…coolest thing i saw hiking around monterey (garland ranch in carmel valley) was coming across some wild turkeys…the first thought was how unexpected, followed quickly by wondering if i could kill one and eat it…

    my first night sleeping at the presidio in monterey i remember hearing what i thought was a bunch of dogs barking late at night…the next day i visited the small coast guard station down by the water to see all the seals just hanging out on the rocks…

  333. geo:
    okay maine folks – so, full disclosure here, the real interest i have in imagining life in maine is the wildlife…i mean, i’m not expecting it to be like cicely alaska with moose roaming through the town, but – i would think there are quite a few critters out and about…

    one of the points of conversation i had with the person by portland (they live close by a lake to the northeast of the town) was the presence of wildlife in the area…

    one of the things i appreciated most about living in the monterey area was all the wildlife hanging out doing their thing in the woods close by…

    pretty much all i see around here wildlife wise is some hawks and coyotes, not so surprisingly, not a lot of stray cats and possums in the area…saw a dear a while or so ago while doing some hiking, poor thing looked anemic…

    wow, unreason, that was some seriously detailed comments regarding food places – i wanna hang and eat with you :)

    Eating is a bit too good in Portland. More than a phonetic connection between portly and Portland I fear.
    By all means look me up once this epidemic is finally behind us and we can grab a bite. That would be fun.

    I’m not sure where you friend lives. East of Portland pretty much puts you in the Atlantic unless you go up a ways. Maybe he’s near Merrymeeting bay which is quite lakeish and not too far north. Last time we went kayaking there we saw tons of bald eagles and kestrels and a bunch of giant leaping sturgeon. Pretty fun.

    Most of Maine is just woods. Unpopulated. If you’ve ever read Thoreau’s Maine Woods, I doubt it’s changed much since. Lot’s of places that are still more names on a map than real towns. So, lots of wildlife and nobody around to mess with them.

  334. Bruno Almeida:
    The issue with the comparison to me is that Nate had the necessary irrational confidence that small players like him need to have to make it to the NBA. He was the scrappy underdog, etc, I know it sounds cliche but it makes all the difference, DSJ just looks defeated and confused every time he’s on the court, fearful of making mistakes. You guys know I’m not a big intangibles guy, but in cases like this where its so evident, it plays a big part.

    Agreed. My concern is that even with that irrational confidence, DSjr is not anything more than an erratic journeyman in this league. Without it, he will be out of the league soon.

  335. did strat hack into z-man’s account or something? i think he broke his record on opinions per 36 on kb….

  336. there were some rumblings on thibs liking dsj during the draft.. and there were some dsj rumors to minny last year if you guys remember so there could be something to whatever it was that alan hahn was saying….

    dsj was comically bad last year… so bad that there probably was something wrong with him injury wise…. he did look mostly like himself in the preseason and then he hurt his back so that’s what i suspect happened….

    if he got fultzed up we’ll know right away but if it is a fluke then there absolutely is a good chance of a player there…. at least more than where frank is….

  337. djphan:
    did strat hack into z-man’s account or something? i think he broke his record on opinions per 36 on kb….

    just excited about the upcoming season. seems like you like responding, and KB likes the traffic, so it’s all good

  338. djphan: if he got fultzed up we’ll know right away but if it is a fluke then there absolutely is a good chance of a player there…. at least more than where frank is…

    I think Frank has more ways to be useful beyond playing PG. He’s a consistent 3pt shot away from being a decent 2-way rotation player that can play off the ball. DSjr is physically a PG and even when in perfect health has not shown much aptitude in running an offense. But sure, if he gets his head and shot together, and you had a savant playmaker at another position, maybe he can be a useful player. Hopefully both players will turn it around.

  339. Mike K has moved to the South of France with all this sweet pandemic KB revenue….

    The Porzingis t-shirts are flying off the shelves

  340. #dsj was comically bad last year… so bad that there probably was something wrong with him injury wise…. he did look mostly like himself in the preseason and then he hurt his back so that’s what i suspect happened….#

    Never would have thought that hurting your back could result to jumps in the air with the ball and then trying to find an open man till you land!
    Seems like a lot of pain up there…
    Emotional pain…

  341. Unreason: Eating is a bit too good in Portland. More than a phonetic connection between portly and Portland I fear.
    By all means look me up once this epidemic is finally behind us and we can grab a bite. That would be fun.

    I’m not sure where you friend lives. East of Portland pretty much puts you in the Atlantic unless you go up a ways. Maybe he’s near Merrymeeting bay which is quite lakeish and not too far north. Last time we went kayaking there we saw tons of bald eagles and kestrels and a bunch of giant leaping sturgeon. Pretty fun.

    Most of Maine is just woods. Unpopulated. If you’ve ever read Thoreau’s Maine Woods, I doubt it’s changed much since. Lot’s of places that are still more names on a map than real towns. So, lots of wildlife and nobody around to mess with them.

    I did four years in Bar Harbor for college. Coming from NYC it was a big change, but I grew to love it. I love it even more now when I visit and know I’ll be home in a week or so. Months on end were draining at times, especially on a freezing rock.

    Oh and my stereo set up is as follows;
    Marantz 1060 integrated
    Technics 1200 with Grado gold
    Polk 3 way monitors
    Audioengine B1

    The B1 is a few weeks old and I love it. Its a bluetooth dongle that turns the big rig into a bluetooth speaker and plays High Def files, the Neil Young Archives sound just killer at full res.

  342. seems like you like responding, and KB likes the traffic, so it’s all good

    i think you like having opinions before you kind of know anything about the subject…. which makes that comment pretty ironic!

  343. djphan: i think you like having opinions before you kind of know anything about the subject…. which makes that comment pretty ironic!

    Aww, you’re so cute when you’re butthurt, keep on flailing!

  344. Never would have thought that hurting your back could result to jumps in the air with the ball and then trying to find an open man till you land!
    Seems like a lot of pain up there…
    Emotional pain…

    he was pretty loopy but he was also pretty stiff which you can accuse dsj of a lot of things but stiff wasn’t one of them…. i’m speculating but it’s probably a lot of pain killers that could have made him loopy….

    i do know that someone’s 2p % dropping that far in the middle of a career is pretty unprecedented so something was up…. and you don’t really need numbers to tell you that something was… we just don’t know what it was and if it’s gone or if he still got it….

    someone like fultz did manage to recover so that’s kind of what you’re hoping for… but the timing was less than ideal on where it’s happening in his career so that’s the bad news….

  345. Aww, you’re so cute when you’re butthurt, keep on flailing!

    i know enough when a criticism hits home to know that you don’t really think i’m cute sweetie….

  346. If DSJ’s pain continue this season I’d propose a boxing match between him and Justin Bieber to resemble Nate’s career successfully!

    And one more between Knox and a Kangaroo!
    I’d pay to watch that one!

  347. Lot of athletic talent there with DSJ, but still pretty hopeless. Maybe a miracle will happen. The Knicks are certainly owed at least one.

    Biggest problem is that the guy just doesn’t really know how to shoot a basketball. That’s a problem when you’re … you know … a basketball player.

  348. Maybe a miracle will happen. The Knicks are certainly owed at least one.

    We got one with Linsanity, though it only lasted a few weeks. How long do we have to wait between miracles?

  349. Every day’s a new day here at KB!

    i mean you keep saying shit like this but you keep being a dick… why is that?

  350. djphan: i mean you keep saying shit like this but you keep being a dick… why is that?

    Who made the first negative comment today?

  351. Knew Your Nicks:
    And one more between Knox and a Kangaroo!
    I’d pay to watch that one!

    Well, if it’s one on one, i’ll put my money on the kangaroo. If you said it was Knox and 2 friends against 3 kangaroos… :D

  352. Funny and negative are not mutually exclusive. Your comment was snide and gratuitous.

    That said, what part of my response to your comment was negative? Here’s what I said:

    just excited about the upcoming season. seems like you like responding, and KB likes the traffic, so it’s all good

    I can’t imagine saying anything less provocative or argumentative in response to a snide, gratuitous, and if you say so, humorous comment. In fact, I immediately made a good faith response to your post about DSjr and Frank. Go back and read it and tell me what was negative about it.

    Then you followed up with:

    i think you like having opinions before you kind of know anything about the subject…. which makes that comment pretty ironic!

    So in my book, today was a new day. No carried-over grudges on my end!

  353. @SBondyNYDN:
    NY has zero players on roster in his 30s. The average age is 24.1, the 4th-youngest team in NBA behind the Twolves (23.6), Hornets (24), Grizz (24).

    This is very encouraging, a more balanced and younger team.

  354. did strat hack into z-man’s account or something? i think he broke his record on opinions per 36 on kb….

    Are you kidding me?

    I’m thrilled I’m not in argument about Phil or Frank again. It’s fun to be a spectator once in awhile. :-)

  355. Your comment was snide and gratuitous.

    sounds like someone is thin-skinned…. i’ll make sure to apologize when i feel like it.. and you’ll be the first to know….

  356. For the Audiophiles: Do you think the rise of electronic music partially has to do with how music is processed these days? In other words, wouldn’t it make sense to make music that is made to sound its best when digitally compressed and played through iPhones, computers, etc.? Just a thought.

  357. So in my book, today was a new day. No carried-over grudges on my end!

    so why were you holding grudges for the last week? i generally don’t give a shit about this but you been unnecessarily antagonistic for a long time… and i’m not just get bullied around here while ppl accuse me of having an agenda or intentionally distorting facts….

    so you can just take this shit i’m sending your way like i told you what was going to happen or you can try to resolve this like i offered multiple times….

  358. I’m thrilled I’m not in argument about Phil or Frank again. It’s fun to be a spectator once in awhile. :-)

    i honestly did not know that was you… and that makes this even more funny…. glad to know you’re still around…

  359. ess-dog:
    For the Audiophiles: Do you think the rise of electronic music partially has to do with how music is processed these days? In other words, wouldn’t it make sense to make music that is made to sound its best when digitally compressed and played through iPhones, computers, etc.? Just a thought.

    I once read that music was engineered to be played through car speakers. It makes sense because commutes contribute pretty heavily to music consumption. I assume that’s limited to the larger labels. Very briefly music was made to be ringtones (or at least a large swathe of hip hop).

    But generally I think my point is major labels likely consider the various means of distribution.

  360. It’s interesting how different the reactions are to Frank and DSJ; two young, 4th-year PGs (or possibly in both cases “PGs”) both of whom have been really bad in their careers and both of whom need to make the ball go in the basket to become sort of interesting players. The numbers favor DSJ (which really isn’t saying much in this context); the eye test maybe suggests there’s a bit more to Frank than shows up in his numbers, depending on how you feel about his defense. Is the difference mainly just that Frank is “our” guy since we drafted him? That people are more drawn to the type of player Frank might become? It looks to me like they’re both about a jump shot away from being 3rd guard types (albeit very different 3rd guards obviously) and in need of some level of miracle development to become significantly more than that.

    Not advocating for DSJ>Frank, just saying that rumors of Frank potentially starting would surely be treated as a great sign heralding good news about his development. Seems like we should be holding out a similar amount of hope for DSJ.

  361. djphan: sounds like someone is thin-skinned…. i’ll make sure to apologize when i feel like it.. and you’ll be the first to know….

    Nah, not really. Honestly, no apology needed….as is clearly the case in my good faith response to your comment about DSjr. But when you go out of your way to make a provocative comment, I will almost certainly respond in kind. If that makes me thin-skinned, guess I’ll have to live with that.

  362. I see DSJr as having a lot of natural talent but lacking the basketball IQ and work ethic to put it all together and become the kind of player his God given physical talents should allow him to become.

    I see Frank as the opposite.

    I see Frank as having been blessed with good length, a great work ethic, a high basketball IQ, and team first attitude, but without the natural athletic ability to become a star player.

    It will get tricky for them. One or both of them is going to have to show enough this year to be given an extension. Right now that looks like too much money for either. They may both be gone. IMO, that would be a shame in Frank’s case because he finally has a coach that will understand his value if given enough time to develop into the high level role player I think he’s going to become and that every team could use.

  363. thenamestsam: Not advocating for DSJ>Frank, just saying that rumors of Frank potentially starting would surely be treated as a great sign heralding good news about his development. Seems like we should be holding out a similar amount of hope for DSJ.

    I’m not sure that there’s any credence to the rumors about Thibs et. al. liking DSjr as a starter or otherwise. I doubt that anything has been decided and seriously doubt that DSjr is, or will be, above Payton on the depth chart unless there is some kind of odds-defying massive transformation. If I recall correctly, all the right things were being said about him going into last season as well….he worked on his shot mechanics, he understands what he needs to do, etc. Same is true for Frank. If I had to bet on one of them improving and getting significant playing time, it would be Frank, but the most probable outcome is that they both are gone after this year so whatever.

  364. djphan: i honestly did not know that was you… and that makes this even more funny…. glad to know you’re still around…

    In a moment of frustration I tried to delete my Stratomatic ID but I couldn’t do it. So I changed the password to a bunch of random numbers and letters that I could never remember, assuming that would at least reduce my temptation to log on. Eventually I calmed down and tried to do password reset request, but the email ID associated with that account had long since been deleted. The Stratomatic ID still exists, but I have no ability to log into it and have no idea what the password is. I had no choice but to create a brand new account. lol

  365. NY is one of the youngest team in the NBA. There are 8 players on this roster are age 22 or younger. 5 players are over 25. This is a senior year college team. I do think that the RJ, Frank, Knox, DSJr, Mitch, Iggy, IQ and Obi-1 group should be cut some slack and also given lots of burn. My entire argument against this team is that there is little veteran leadership. That being said, if you give up on one of them, you might as well give up on all of them. These bananas are just at the point where they should turn ripe.

    So DSJr starting and Frank sitting is as viable as anything. Then we draft IQ, who people here think is just a SG, but he, his college coach and scouts say is a PG. Then we sign Payton who is 26 to a no-trade contract and add old-man Rivers age 28 to the PG mix. WTF? What I want is to see if we can make a decision on both Frank and DSJr. Their contracts are pressing issues. The Knicks must extend them qualifying offers at the end this season or they become UFAs. So I believe that they are very much on the market. This is another argument to support my belief that the Knicks will give them both a lot of burn. Knox is in that position next year.

    A word on the snippiness on KB. I stopped posting for a while because of it. The nastiness got to be too much and it wasn’t the firs time. It’s OK to have a difference of opinion, but when you call “something” stupid, it almost always lands as calling “someone” stupid. Intent is irrelevant. That’s human nature. It is socially better (and also a good debate strategy) to substantiate your disagreement with the premise of an argument than to disagree with the argument as a whole. How we say things is often more important than what we say. BTW, this comes from someone for whom it is not natural; someone who had to learn it mid-career.

  366. But when you go out of your way to make a provocative comment, I will almost certainly respond in kind.

    you kinda act like you’re the victim here… and let’s make this perfectly fucking clear…. i took this shit from you at least a handful of times…. and you asked for me to reciprocate instead of apologizing or at least telling me what i did to you to deserve the antagonism…..

    i’m a pretty reasonable person….. i have no idea what grudge you’re holding but you;ve been a humongous prick…. and EVEN STILL… i would drop it again if i had assurances that you could handle yourself in an adult manner….

    i know that it’s hard to drop the hot takes for a minute… but take some time to think about that….

  367. There’s one problem in defending DSJ and Frank are on the same (bad) level of development. Let’s say both learn how to shoot the basket, now what? One would still be a one-way player and the other would be a two-way player, which one do you prefer?

    And by the way, i don’t defend Frank for being picked by the Knicks, it’s just that denying he does one part of the game well and DSJ does no part well, it’s confusing to me. We picked Knox and i don’t defend him, at least for now he’s bad and there’s no denying it.

  368. you could be a good one way player and you could also be a bad two way player … right?

    i mean frank having a jumpshot was basically last year looking at the numbers or are we expecting significantly better?

  369. There’s one problem in defending DSJ and Frank are on the same (bad) level of development. Let’s say both learn how to shoot the basket, now what? One would still be a one-way player and the other would be a two-way player, which one do you prefer?

    I’m no Smith fan because I don’t think he ever will have a jumpshot. That said, if Smith ever developed a jumpshot, he’d be an All Star. If Frank developed one, he’d be a solid starter. Guys like Smith only get drafted on the off chance that they will, in fact, develop a jumpshot. If they do, they are stars.

  370. djphan: you kinda act like you’re the victim here… and let’s make this perfectly fucking clear…. i took this shit from you at least a handful of times…. and you asked for me to reciprocate instead of apologizing or at least telling me what i did to you to deserve the antagonism…..

    i’m a pretty reasonable person….. i have no idea what grudge you’re holding but you;ve been a humongous prick…. and EVEN STILL… i would drop it again if i had assurances that you could handle yourself in an adult manner….

    i know that it’s hard to drop the hot takes for a minute… but take some time to think about that….

    I don’t feel like a victim at all, so don’t get where you came up with that. As I said, every day is a new day. In the last 2 days you have referred to me as an asshole, a dick and a humongous prick. Sounds like you’re the one having a hard time with moving on.

    Maybe strat can be a role model for you…he gets bashed more than anyone here, but always starts every day with a clean slate.

  371. DSJr with a jumpshot is a pretty valuable lead guard.

    Frank with a jumpshot is a solid 3&D player.

    Right or wrong, PGs who can score and pass, even while playing crap defense, have more value in the league.

  372. Brian Cronin: I’m no Smith fan because I don’t think he ever will have a jumpshot. That said, if Smith ever developed a jumpshot, he’d be an All Star. If Frank developed one, he’d be a solid starter. Guys like Smith only get drafted on the off chance that they will, in fact, develop a jumpshot. If they do, they are stars.

    I can agree with that, but i would still be undecided which one i would prefer, because the All Star you’re talking about it’s D’Angelo Russell, only offense and zero defense.

  373. djphan:
    you could be a good one way player and you could also be a bad two way player … right?

    i mean frank having a jumpshot was basically last year looking at the numbers or are we expecting significantly better?

    To keep him, i’m expecting significantly better, yes. The same for DSJ. Or else just trade them if someone still believes they have value.

  374. In the last 2 days you have referred to me as an asshole, a dick and a humongous prick. Sounds like you’re the one having a hard time with moving on.

    it’s more like you have no clue that you’re being a dick and someone needs to tell you multiple times because in your old age you wake up and you completely forget or something .. i’m doing you a service because you’re having such a hard time with self awareness….

    most ppl here can handle having their opinions challenged… why do you keep taking things so personally that you get antagonistic so often?

  375. djphan: it’s more like you have no clue that you’re being a dick and someone needs to tell you multiple times because in your old age you wake up and you completely forget or something .. i’m doing you a service because you’re having such a hard time with self awareness….

    most ppl here can handle having their opinions challenged… why do you keep taking things so personally that you get antagonistic so often?

    Was I being a dick? Well, you know how it is with us senile old folks. Who are you, anyway? And what’s a dick?

  376. Can someone explain Frank’s high basketball IQ to me? He’s really good man defender who’s invisible off of the ball. Other than jumping the occasional screen he’s shown nothing in the way of sniffing out plays before they happen. And I guess his refusal to shoot is smart given how poorly he does it but that’s about the only sign of offensive intelligence. Frank seems like a bright kid but basketball IQ is a lot different than standard IQ. Jeremy Lin went to Harvard and I’d say his basketball IQ was definitely on the low side.

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