New York Knicks 102 – Chicago Bulls 120 – Game Recap

“Rigid Thinking is a 3rd level priest spell. It inflicts confusion on a single target. 

The target of this spell must make a Saving Throw vs. Spell or come under its effects. When under the effects of the Rigid Thinking spell, the victim will randomly wander, attack the nearest person, or stand confused.”

As you well know, I played a lot of CRPG in my youth and early adult life. Baldur’s Gate has always been one of my favourite ones, being the first taste I had of a real D&D videogame (it also came out smack dab in the middle of a nasty on-off teenage crush relationship, so my memories of that game are way more vivid than they should thanks to that).

I’m pretty sure I could recite the entire spellbook of that game by heart, especially the 1st to 3rd level spells. Rigid thinking was one of the spells I hated most: when used by friends, it looked like it didn’t do anything at all; when used by foes, it was really devastating, as four or five characters suddenly were out of my control and started doing a lot of nonsensical things like standing in place while an ankheg was pummeling at them or attacking each other for no discernible reason. The worst thing was the very long time to recover from the magical induced stupor: they had to make their saving throw or else the spell would keep on affecting them for one turn, which could mean 10-15 possess… ahem, attacks.

Yeah, I think I finally understood the meaning of Fizdale magic.

***

What would you do if your job was hanging for dear life and the only thing that could save your employment status was the efficiency of your production in the following days? If you answered “absolutely nothing and keep doing the same things that brought me on the brink of firing”, I’m happy to welcome you amongst my readers, mr. David Fizdale.

It’s apparent to everyone that Fiz is on a very short notice, but he didn’t change anything to his gameplan save for a half-assed zone that was exposed the very first time an opponent hit two shots in a row. I mean, in a crucial game for you future you dare to send again on the floor four PFs at the same time (Knox at the 2, Morris at the 3, Randle at the 4, Gibson at the 5, with poor Frank left feeling a bit like Piper Perri in the famous meme)?

***

I think we’ve all been through a relationship with a person that you grew gradually less and less fond of, only to drag it for a few more weeks than necessary out of pity or simply lack of courage. I, for one, am very guilty of it. I was fed up with a girl, but lacked the testicular fortitude to kiss her goodbye (she wouldn’t let me without crying and taunting, and it was agony at the simple mention of ending our relatioship). So I kept waiting for the right moment. As soon as I found out she was cheating on me (which, WTF? I don’t condemn cheating by itself, but why put me through that emotional distress if you were already sleeping with another guy? Still, in the end I’m probably the cause of that, too, so whatever) I seized the opportunity and we weren’t a couple anymore. I feel like Pills are in the same predication. I hope Luka’s the one Fiz will be figuratively caught boning red-handed. This team doesn’t need this thing to go further. Cut the Gordian knot and start over.

***

About the game: I don’t know how the Knicks were able to weather the storm until the fourth quarter, given that they gave 33 combined minutes to Dennis Smith Jr and Bobby Portis, but amazingly they entered the last period tied 85-85 (ok, ok, this Bulls team is quite bad itself). From there they went on to score only 17 points. Coby White alone scored 23 for the Bulls in the same span. That was thanks to an un precedented barrage of seven triples (five in a row) against a weird zone that looked like it was given the wrong court measurements, as they stationed mostly around an imaginary NCAA three point line. The other parts of the game were very forgettable, apart from a gorgeous sequence in the third: RJ drives and kicks to Knox for a confident trifecta (Barrett had his hand raised as soon as Kevin released the shot), the Bulls brought the ball up, RJ helped steal the ball, Knox dished a fantastic alley-oop to RJ in transition. Add to that some savvy Taj Gibson minutes and you have everything that was tolerable. Everything else was not.

The good:

– RJ Barrett (21 pts, 6 rebs, 9 ast, +7 +/-) got out of his recent funk to deliver a very good all-around perfomance (add two steals to the tally). If anything, he’s at least a reason to watch this games and not plunge deep into an ocean of despair, unless he’s at the line to shoot free throws. Again, second youngest ever to post that kind of stat line. I don’t need to tell you who’s the youngest. Basically, in a world without LeBron James, RJ would be a negative WS/48, rookie Bron.

– Taj Gibson (17 pts, 5 rebs, 2 ast, -6 +/-) did what he had to do: play like a vet. I know it’s a cliche’s cliche, but I love his game. Give me his hard picks, his efficient energy, his coachable attitude every single of the week. I just wish he stopped stealing assists away from Frank by fumbling bunnies around the rim.

The bad:

– Ahem. Dennis Smith Jr (2 ast, 2 stl, 3 TO, -22 +/-) isn’t a basketball player at this stage. Send him down to the G-League. He can’t shoot (at all). He can’t drive straight. He can’t finish at the rim. He can’t pass the ball. He can’t play defense. He can’t do literally anything of value. Let him get some easy reps in the minors and call him back up after a month. Right now he’s completely unplayable and I fear he might ruin his career irredeemably if thrown out to the wolves like this. He’s 1-for-14 so far in the season. In just 40 minutes of play, he’s posting a -0.371 WS/48 (not a typo). Of course the sample size is ridiculously small, but right now if you fielded a lineup made entirely of Dennis Smith Jrs they would lose their game against five brooms and would keep enough losing juice to make the Nets lose too.

Fun-sized bits:

– Who’s already tired of the Randle-Morris era? Where’s the nearest “recovery from stupid FA acquistion plan” clinic? I have a… friend who need to be checked in.

– I’d like to hear Frank’s excuse for shooting only 4 times and being so passive on offense. When will he grab the bull by the horns?

– Bobby Portis is currently shooting 37/30/70, for a gaudy .439 TS% (Frank’s at .450!). When I look at him it reminds me of the Dark Knight scene where the Joker sets a huge pile of money on flame just to prove his point. I don’t know who’s proving a point here, though.

– Before the season began, I thought I would have been in total disarray every time Knox would step on the floor. Right now he’s the fourth best reason to watch this team. And that’s not (only) a compliment on him. Still hovering just below .100 WS/48. Really unforeseeable.

Guys, I’m not sure I’ll be able to recap the Mavs game, since I’ll be in Sicily from Friday to Sunday (I got elected for my second term in the Mensa Italy national board; feel free to bully me with your worst geek jokes, I probably deserve them). I’ll try, but I can’t guarantee anything.

See ya!

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Farfa

Just an Italian basketball fan with an insane passion for all things Knicks (and yes, linguine Alfredo is not a real Italian dish).

246 thoughts to “New York Knicks 102 – Chicago Bulls 120 – Game Recap”

  1. Congrats on your election, Farfa! Your trip sounds like a lot more fun than the Porzingis Revenge Game Revenge Game will likely be.

    I was putting my kids to bed until the fourth quarter began. I picked a great time to start watching, huh?

  2. I also spent an unhealthy amount of time during my formative years playing the absolute snot out of Baldur’s Gate, but I did not think my experience was anywhere near as memorable as yours until you mentioned ankhegs. Commence eye twitching and foaming at the mouth, because god did I hate those fucking ninja bugs.

    Great recap as usual Farfa, and congrats on the Mensa election win!

  3. Nothing makes me feel as moronic right now than thinking back to a few short months ago when I supported Knicks current management team by saying something like, ” Well, at least we aren’t a laughing stock in the media any more!”

    Dolan’s Razor is slicing feverishly at our collective genitalia as we speak…

  4. What Farfa isn’t telling us is that in Italian, Mensa refers to some kind of provincial pasta delicacy…seriously, how can someone who wastes his creative energies chronicling the tragicomedies known as Knicks games be even slightly intelligent? Could the news be any faker? Get real, paisan…

  5. (seriously, congrats and thanks, Farfa, you are a priceless gem sitting atop this festering pile of excrement.)

  6. The players really liked Mark Jackson in Golden State. He couldn’t get along with management, which obviously makes it a non-starter for him to coach in NY.

  7. As to Frank’s aggression, he’s still very Euro, but there were times last night where you could literally hear Fiz yell for him to give the ball up to Morris/Randle so they could commence their bullshit. If you’re waiting for Frank’s brain to tell Frank, “Fuck this shit, I’m going to tell Randle to set me a pick and I’m going,” as some NBA PGs would certainly do … you’re going to be waiting a long, long time.

    I’m not even sure DSJ could do anything in Westchester at this point. One of the dangers about fixing something, and getting into a player’s head that it’s being fixed, is that it could wind up not really fixed and now the player is entirely f/d up mentally. This has all the danger signs of that happening. The guy is an absolute mess, and it’s eminently possible he never recovers and this is it. The chances of him ever recovering in New York are nil. He’s done here.

  8. Great ‘cap Farfa. I don’t know how you do it, but please keep doing it because it’s just about the only thing we have to look forward to at this point.

    I think the next coach taking over will coincide with Payton and Mitch coming back, and thus the team will be run-of-the-mill bad instead of maybe-worse-than-the-17-win-team-from-last-year bad and Ketih Smart or whoever will get a lot of credit.

    Basically I don’t think the fully healthy roster is this bad, but then again if you splurge on free agents and still wind up with a team that crumbles without Elfrid Payton and your second round pick from the prior year, you deserve what you get.

  9. Forget about Mark Jackson’s bigotry and ignorance and fake ass religious posturing for a second. Those are all reasons not to hire him in their own right, but set those aside for a second.

    What about the fact that he’s a paranoid, thin-skinned control freak? How’s that going to goink? Is there any chance whatsoever that Mark Jackson’s Knick tenure is not going to end in some backstabbing, fingerpointing, dirty-laundry-in-the-media clusterfuck? I mean I can’t believe that anybody would think that would go well. That is not the cat you want to add as some spice to the dysfunctional stew called the New York Knicks.

    I guess the lulz would be plentiful, I’ll say that.

  10. Congratulations Farfa.

    As for Stan versus Jeff van Gundy, I prefer Stan. I think he’s better at coaching offense and also a more modern coach than Jeff. We need offensive improvement more than defensive improvement. Their head coaching win lose percentages are almost identical at 0.577 (Stan) and 0.575 (Jeff) with Stan being handicapped by having himself as GM in Detroit for three years.

  11. I maintain that Ntilikina’s problem isn’t that he’s scared or insufficiently aggressive. He is aware of his severe limitations and thus doesn’t try to do things he knows are unlikely to end well, such as “dribble into the paint” or “shoot the ball while not wide-ass open.” If he tried to do such things his numbers would look even worse than they do now, which would require Strat and co. to argue that box score metrics are not merely flawed but are one big conspiracy against Frank Ntilikina. So those folks should be happy he’s not doing those things and forcing them to say that.

  12. Holy shit, there are people arguing for Mark fucking Jackson? My god, as much as we all yell at each other here I thought there were at least a few things about which literally everyone agreed. Don’t re-hire Isiah Thomas. Don’t trade for Andrew Wiggins. Don’t trade RJ and Mitch for John Wall. Things like that. I absolutely thought “don’t hire MARK JACKSON” was in that category.

    I guess we have Phil Jackson defenders, so nothing should surprise me, but man a Mark Jackson hire might be the most easily foreseeable disaster in the history of a team that has engaged in nothing but easily foreseeable disasters for twenty years.

  13. Great recap, Farfa! I laughed even more often than while watching the game!

    Also, it was all true:

    against a weird zone that looked like it was given the wrong court measurements

    Yep.

    right now if you fielded a lineup made entirely of Dennis Smith Jrs they would lose their game against five brooms and would keep enough losing juice to make the Nets lose too.

    lol

    I hope Luka’s the one Fiz will be figuratively caught boning red-handed.

    …wut? ok, not every shot went in, but funny and on-point as usual.

  14. somehow mark jackson gets credit for running the 4th best defense in the nba on a team that included:

    iguodala (30): one of the best defensive wings ever to play the game

    bogut (29): elite defensive big 34th all time in block pct

    klay (23): well above average defensive wing

    draymond (23): annual dpoy candidate, probably most versatile defender ever

    what kind of defense should we have expected from that team? probably only a handful of teams in 3pt era history have had 4 defenders as good. why can’t we accept that it is dangerous to give result oriented credit to someone who may have just been in the right place at the right time. if only we had some additional evidence, like maybe a running dialogue of multiple years of live in game analysis that sounded suspiciously like fortune cookie bullshit wisdom.

  15. Great stuff Farfa and enjoy Sicily. Definitely on my bucket list.

    I also want to make clear that I disliked Mark Jackson as a coach and as a commentator long before all that other stuff came out. You just listen to him talk about basketball on a telecast and it’s clear – the guy doesn’t get it.

    He is also supremely annoying to listen to. At least with Fiz, you can actually enjoy listening to him talk. Which is unbelievable given how bad his coaching is but nevertheless true somehow.

  16. last night was another example of fiz not doing so hot… i generally don’t kill coaches on lineups because fans almost always hate every lineup a coach puts out… but rj and taj sitting so long in the 4th was a big headscratcher….

    we again killed the bulls in the pnr…. and i don’t know the numbers but we look pretty good when rj is running it as he generally makes the right pass… i don’t know why we don’t go to it more often….

    dsj needs some time…. and i agree he probably needs it in the gleague but we’re very short on ballhandling…. he had one nice moment towards the end of the 3rd where he raced up the court after a make and fed taj for an easy layup… frank has never anything like that…. so that’s the kind of thing you should get more of when he’s on the court… but overall he doesn’t look like himself.. there’s a herky jerkiness that you could see even on the steal he had for rj’s alley hoop…. that’s never been a part of dsj’s body language so something does seem to be up…

  17. I think Jackson did do solid developmental work with those Warriors teams and in particular in terms of getting them to develop a defensive identity that really lasted even as Kerr overhauled the offense after taking over. I also think he was a pretty darn bad offensive coach – Kerr came in the next year and took pretty much the same group from less than one point above league average to 6 points above.

    It’s a respectable coaching record and he may very well be an above replacement level NBA coach in a vacuum, which by Knicks standards would put him in the running for best of the last 15 years. But it’s not a record that comes close to justifying taking a chance on the copious red flags around him. You’d have to really believe that all the organizational discord that he sowed in GS would be completely mitigated by his personal relationship with Mills/Perry, with the upside being that you’re getting an only mildly insane average NBA coach? Yeah, let’s not.

  18. RJ and Taj had a pretty effective pick and roll going, we should have seen more of that. RJ can definitely run that play. We don’t have a lot of good screen setters though.

  19. Congratulations, Farfa. I hope the next recap is made of jokes you guys at the board tell each other. Like, design a depth first search in a directed graph going from one Knicks coach to another without using recursion. (everyone is on the floor laughing)

  20. I think Jackson did do solid developmental work with those Warriors teams

    Like when he told Steph Curry to jump up and down on his injured ankle so it could be healed by his Sky God?

    You have absolutely no evidence that those players were positively affected in a substantial way by his coaching.

  21. Though Mark Jackson was my favorite Knicks when I was growing up, I am not advocating for him to be coach here in 2019.

    I think he would have been a good hire in 2008, when Mike DAntoni was hired over him. D’Antoni was a win-now coach, and Jackson was a coach that could develop along with the players during the 2008-2010 “rebuild”. (In an alternate universe, I imagine D’antoni taking the Bulls job and Jackson taking the Knicks job and having a somewhat different looking league today).

    Jackson’s personality proved to be incompatible with NBA coaching. He was a wreck in all the peripheral aspects of the job. But he should get credit for laying some of the building blocks for the great Warriors team. And, not for nothing, the players really did all like him. Steph Curry said of him after he was fired: “As much as I supported Coach Jackson and loved everything about playing for him, I think [the team is] about winning. He was a sign of stability for me. I had three coaches in three years, and he embodies what I know is good around here with the Warriors — winning and that kind of feel. It was a lot different in my first few years.”

    I don’t think it’s as simple as Mark Jackson is a terrible coach and anybody in the world would be better than he. I think everybody on earth is destined to fail at MSG, and Jackson would be no different. But that’s more of a criticism of the knicks, their ownership, and the expectation of nba coaching in general than it is about Mark Jackson.

  22. I don’t care if he did do solid developmental work or whatever. He’s thin-skinned and he’s an asshole, and he says a lot of stupid shit about basketball all the time. You couldn’t pick a guy more likely to fail spectacularly.

    I almost hope he gets hired just for the “I told you so” factor. I mean, we’re a joke anyway, might as well lean all the way into it.

  23. dsj needs some time…. and i agree he probably needs it in the gleague but we’re very short on ballhandling…. he had one nice moment towards the end of the 3rd where he raced up the court after a make and fed taj for an easy layup… frank has never anything like that…. so that’s the kind of thing you should get more of when he’s on the court… but overall he doesn’t look like himself..

    I took note of that moment too for how much it stood out. The lack of those explosive moments is a big part of what makes me think DSJ is just broken right now for whatever reason. Yes, the jumper is clearly jacked up, but his nuclear athleticism from the PG spot is supposed to be his calling card (the guy was in the slam dunk competition!) and yet we’ve seen vanishingly few plays that remind you of that recently. Obviously it’s a really small sample still, but his shots at the rim are <50% of his career norms as are his short midrange attempts – he's getting no penetration right now. Maybe some of that is Fiz's strange offensive system, but as you said he just doesn't look like himself.

  24. Guys guys guys

    Talking yourself into Mark Jackson is like wearing a double set of beer goggles and trying to get laid with a bonobo at the local zoo

    Please stahp

  25. I’ve expressed optimism about DSJ in the past, so I’ll go on the record now and say he’s done absolutely nothing that indicates we should plan around him at all or expend any resources to keep him. Just like Ntilikina, we should keep playing him until we have some compelling reason not to but that’s it.

    This is subject to change, but as of now it appears I was wrong about his prospects.

    You see how easy that was? I didn’t say you all just don’t have high enough basketball IQs to appreciate his talents, or that he’s been misused by multiple coaches and front offices, or that the box score is a mirage.

  26. And yeah, I agree that the DSJ-to-Taj dish really stuck out because with Payton injured we basically haven’t seen a point guard-y play all season. That’s the main reason we should keep playing him. He’s bad, but he is a bad point guard.

  27. You have absolutely no evidence that those players were positively affected in a substantial way by his coaching.

    Coaching evaluations are all subjective. We’re all just working off scraps of what we read and various assumptions. You’re doing exactly the same thing in concluding he’s not a good coach. Anyway it’s not worth arguing about since my main point is even if he is a halfway decent coach (which is about the best you could argue) that’s not worth it given all the other crap.

  28. That’s the main reason we should keep playing him.

    Thing is, it’s just stupid to play him without at least three bona fide shooters around him. You need to play him with Dotson/Ellington, Morris and Knox (and one of Mitch/Gibson). Mayyyyybe then he can do something. As soon as there are only two shooting threats on the court he’s useless.

  29. “When Festus Ezeli was injured last season, Jackson and his staff told the healthy players that Ezeli was cheering against them — so that he would look good, according to several team sources. Players confronted Ezeli in a meeting, and he wept at the accusation — which he denied.”

    This sounds like the guy for us!

  30. Mark Jackson:
    -Saw a team improve exponentially immediately upon his firing with minimal roster changes
    -Baselessly told his whole team that an injured player was rooting against them
    -Said he wouldn’t have Jason Collins in his locker room while at the same time getting extorted via nudes he sent to his mistress

    This is purely off the top of my head. Guys. Please. Cut this shit out. You’re going to knickerblogger post it into existence!

  31. If the Knicks MUST go with a big hire for a new coach, I think we should go for bringing back Jeff Van Gundy.

    I know he hasn’t coached in awhile and the “game has changed” but I listen to Van Gundy comment on games and he seems very hip to the new NBA while also very aware of some of the shortcomings of today’s players. He seems like a tough but fair coach. I would trust him to run a good rotation. I would trust him to not play favorite’s based on salary or veteran experience or because one GM likes this player more than another. I would trust him to teach our players defense. I would trust him to draw up plays out of time outs and at end of game situations. I would trust that the players would respect him.

    Otherwise, I don’t know. I think an overseas guy or a proven G-league coach would be the way to go. No thanks to Mark Jackson please.

  32. You’re going to knickerblogger post it into existence!

    If only it was that easy!

    (But with regard to Mark Jackson, as far as I see it, there is only one person here out of many advocating for him to be the next coach of the knicks.)

  33. Saw a team improve exponentially immediately upon his firing with minimal roster changes

    per Neptune on the other thread:

    Kerr took almost exactly the same core 8 and won 16 more games and the title the following year. However…. he played Draymond 10 mpg more and D Lee 13 minutes a game less…..

    Their O ratting went from 14 to 2 and their D rating went from 4 to 1

    You’re telling me with certainty they couldn’t have achieved that growth if he had acquired Kerr or someone similar as an assistant to run the offense?

    This is also occurred at a rate consistent with the player’s development.

    Jowles says:

    You have absolutely no evidence that those players were positively affected in a substantial way by his coaching

    But you have absolutely no evidence that these players, who are all time greats, weren’t already on that trajectory. They went from 23 wins to 47 wins to 51 wins to immortality. A good offensive minded assistant coach couldn’t have helped get these players there with Mark Jackson?

  34. I think a lot of coaches could have had success with that group of players, without the side dish of humiliating scandals that came along with it.

    That’s the thing: it doesn’t really matter how good a coach Mark Jackson is. He’s a toxic personality, and his chance of navigating the swamp of MSG without it turning into a complete fucking disaster is zero. ZERO.

  35. At least Fizdale didn’t almost immediately alienate his best player by hurling a bunch of xenophobic garbage at him about his basketball heritage, like Mark Jackson did.

    Oh, wait ….

    Jackson’s too preachy and too heroball for my tastes and I don’t really want him, but to still be suggesting that his coaching resume is somehow on the same terrible level as David Fizdale’s is ludicrous. David Fizdale CAN NOT COACH.

  36. Here are some Reddit accounts.

    https://www.foxsports.com/nba/story/report-mark-jackson-tried-to-turn-warriors-against-festus-ezeli-062215

    https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/mark-jackson-in-alleged-extortion-plot-with-ex-stripper-over-nude-photos/

    https://www.si.com/nba/2017/04/10/stephen-curry-book-excerpt-ankle-injury-mark-jackson

    This was a real disappointing post from you.

    These things don’t mean the same to me that they do to you. I don’t like the Ezeli story but at the same time I wouldn’t hate a coach toughening up some of these kids.

    The other things are ad hominem and have nothing to do with basketball. Married NBA players have sex with strippers every day. Stupid shit happens in church every week.

    And you know what? The vast athletic culture is as ignorant on the equality of humans as Mark Jackson is. 20 to 1 says Mitchell Robinson would say something stupid if a reporter asked him about a gay teammate.

  37. Dolan et al and Jackson

    A hypergolic propellant combination used in a rocket engine is one whose components spontaneously ignite when they come into contact with each other.

  38. On my coaching list, I have Mark Jackson just ahead of Isiah Thomas. Both those coaches I have 1,000 places behind a rabid skunk as coach and 500 places behind a rat corpse with bubonic plague. Absolutely no to Mark Jackson.

  39. On the Jason Collins thing, it’s very easy to Google. Jackson denies saying it and is quoted on record at length saying he’d be fine with Collins on his team, if justified in basketball terms.

    If Jackson indeed was quoted correctly (I do not recall the conversation if it took place after I started on the beat in late January), it would go against what the ordained minister told reporters April 29, 2013 on the day Collins came out in a Sports Illustrated article.

    Asked then if Collins would be welcomed on the Warriors, Jackson said of the player he got to know while serving as a Nets broadcaster, “If he had game. If he could help this team. Right now (during a playoff series against Denver), he can’t help this team.”

    In that same interview session with reporters, Jackson opened himself up to criticism in also saying, “As a Christian man, I have beliefs of what’s right and what’s wrong. That being said, I know Jason Collins, I know his family. And certainly praying for them at this time.”

    But asked on The Dan Patrick Show in February four days after Collins signed with the Nets, Jackson said his belief in the Bible did not affect how he saw a gay basketball player.

    “At the end of the day, I’m a pastor,” Jackson said. “I have my beliefs as a pastor and as a believer, and that’s not going to change. I love Jason Collins. And I think this is a basketball story. I think we’re doing a poor job as a society making it something that it’s not. I’m happy for him, wish him nothing but the best, but it’s a basketball story.

    “If a guy can get it done on the floor, then that’s the story. I don’t think it’s any other story. Are you good enough to play on this level? And the Nets think that Jason Collins is, and they went after him, and he’s now a member of the Brooklyn Nets. More power to him.”

  40. A better topic, then:

    by show of hands, how many of you think that we will get to see this for ourselves first hand, i.e. he will be our next coach?

    Forget should. Will he be.

    I say yes, he will be.

  41. a little something i noticed during the game…. rj went back to his older form for his free throws… he held the ball higher this game before he started his motion… in the pro’s it’s been lower….

    holding the ball high is generally frowned upon… as you want it to match your shooting motion and a lower load point gets more power into the shot… this was probably changed during his training to get a more consistent motion…. it was working about the same as his old form during summer league and preseason (~66%) but bad results so far (40 some odd%)…

    this hopefully gets resolved soon but this might be in his head now… he should trust the preparation because the work he did with hanlan on everything else has been superb….

  42. somehow mark jackson gets credit for running the 4th best defense in the nba on a team that included:

    iguodala (30): one of the best defensive wings ever to play the game

    bogut (29): elite defensive big 34th all time in block pct

    klay (23): well above average defensive wing

    draymond (23): annual dpoy candidate, probably most versatile defender ever

    what kind of defense should we have expected from that team? probably only a handful of teams in 3pt era history have had 4 defenders as good. why can’t we accept that it is dangerous to give result oriented credit to someone who may have just been in the right place at the right time. if only we had some additional evidence, like maybe a running dialogue of multiple years of live in game analysis that sounded suspiciously like fortune cookie bullshit wisdom.

    We’ve got Frank, Barrett, Morris, Taj Gibson, and Mitchell Robinson and we get blown out every other game. I’m not saying Jackson is the Bill Belichick of Basketball but I’m pretty damn confident he would maximize the defensive abilities of his best defenders, just like he did in Golden State.

  43. I don’t talk to God much but I hear he is a huge sports fan. So here goes…

    God, our most merciful father, almighty lover of box score statistics and eye tests, creator of the pick and roll, setter of unmoving screens, knower of the rules of illegal defense, scourge of the mid-range jumper, please shelter all your lost servants wandering in the desert of Dolan from the hiring of Mark Jackson.

  44. by show of hands, how many of you think that we will get to see this for ourselves first hand, i.e. he will be our next coach?

    I think if Mills/Perry are the ones making the next permanent hire he’s by far the most likely individual to be picked, but I would still take the field over him (i.e. his chances are <50% but considerably higher than any other single person). I'm not 100% convinced Perry/Mills are hiring the next coach though – I wouldn't be shocked to see us go with one of the assistants until the end of the year and then clean house at that point. Maybe just wishful thinking though.

  45. But with regard to Mark Jackson, as far as I see it, there is only one person here out of many advocating for him to be the next coach of the knicks

    I’d rather bring Masai Ujiri in and let him choose the next coach. I didn’t advocate for Jax in 2017 (I wanted Bud) but when it was down to Jackson, Fizdale, or Stackhouse, I knew who the best choice was.

    I’m just being realistic. No quality up-and-comer is walking into this situation. Dave Joerger is smart enough to know he needs to choose wisely right now. David Blatt has MS. Dolan has never made up with the Van Gundys.

    So what are we probably looking at? More Fizdale, Mark Jackson, Patrick Ewing, Keith Smart, Mike Miller.

  46. somehow mark jackson gets credit for running the 4th best defense in the nba on a team that included:

    iguodala (30): one of the best defensive wings ever to play the game

    bogut (29): elite defensive big 34th all time in block pct

    klay (23): well above average defensive wing

    draymond (23): annual dpoy candidate, probably most versatile defender ever

    We’ve got Frank, Barrett, Morris, Taj Gibson, and Mitchell Robinson

    One of these things is not like the other

  47. I’m just being realistic. No quality up-and-comer is walking into this situation. Dave Joerger is smart enough to know he needs to choose wisely right now. David Blatt has MS. Dolan has never made up with the Van Gundys.

    There are 30 total NBA head coaching jobs, all of which compensate more handsomely than college and assistant jobs. There are tons good coaches out there who would kill to coach the Knicks or any other NBA team. Even Fizdale was a commodity of sorts before he, like many before him, came here and saw his reputation explode.

  48. One of these things is not like the other

    Of course, that wasn’t the point. We have enough good defensive players on this team to be stout. Instead we’re 23rd.

  49. There have been a few occasions where the Knicks have made moves where I was instantly like “WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU KIDDING ME,” knowing it was a disaster the moment it was announced. The Bargnani trade was one. The Joakim Noah signing was another.

    Hiring Mark Jackson would be a continuation of that fine tradition.

  50. What other obviously insane things can we get people to defend? Let’s get wild in here. Whose got a good ex-post defense of the Bargnani trade? Someone post some ruru-era shooting data indicating we need to buy low on Wiggins before it’s too late. Is John Wall’s injury really that bad? With Collins suspended, do we think the Hawks would accept a Mitch-Reddish swap?

  51. Via NY Times on KP

    In the biggest adjustment, he is spending more time beyond the 3-point line than he ever did as a Knick and is averaging 6.2 attempts per game from long distance, up from his highest figure (4.8 per game) in New York.

    A whopping 43 percent of Porzingis’s shots in 2017-18 were what many teams regard as dreaded “long 2s” — shots from at least 10 feet but short of the 3-point line. The Mavericks are trying to wean Porzingis off the increasingly devalued shot. As Coach Rick Carlisle explained last week, Dallas’s staff is convinced that Porzingis is “one of the best spacers in the history of the game if you look at the analytics on it.”

    “When he’s out above the arc, it has an amazing positive effect on the team that he’s playing for, whether it was New York or whether it’s us,” Carlisle said.

    Just curious, is the impact of better spacing, especially from a PF/C, a stat in the boxscore?

    How about the potential for better shot selection with a competent coach and PG?

    “He is so much further on than I expected after 20 months off,” Mark Cuban, Dallas’s team owner, said on Monday, hours before Porzingis endured a foul-plagued nightmare in Boston in which he missed 10 of 11 shots from the field.

    “I expected him to be rustier,” Cuban said. “And add that to a new system, new teammates, new city.”

    We’ll see towards the end of the season and next year if he recovers his full athleticism, quickness, speed, and shot. In any event, Dallas will get more out of him than we would have even if he is physically diminished.

  52. Whose got a good ex-post defense of the Bargnani trade?

    Just curious, is the impact of better spacing, especially from a PF/C, a stat in the boxscore?

    How about the potential for better shot selection with a competent coach and PG?

    Hmmmmmm.

  53. thenoblefacehumper: What other obviously insane things can we get people to defend?

    JK47: Hiring Mark Jackson would be a continuation of that fine tradition

    I’m pretty sure you both said the same thing when I told you Jax was a better choice than David Fizdale.

    We’re 19-74 since then.

    You were both more emphatically wrong than anyone in the history of this blog including the Bargnani trade defenders.

  54. I’m pretty sure you both said the same thing when I told you Jax was a better choice than David Fizdale.

    You’re assuming that Jackson would have done drastically better than Fizdale. Which is a pretty big assumption considering the abject shittiness of the last two rosters. Fizdale sucking doesn’t make Mark Jackson a good coach.

    Whatever, now I hope this happens just for the lulz.

  55. And honestly, I don’t doubt that Jackson is a better x’s and o’s coach than Fizdale. My problem with Jackson is that he’s a toxic personality, and that he is particularly ill-equipped to deal with the dysfunction of MSG. He might get okay results for a minute before the spectacular crash and burn. But the crash and burn will come, make no mistake about that.

  56. I’m pretty sure you both said the same thing when I told you Jax was a better choice than David Fizdale.

    We’re 19-74 since then.

    You were both more emphatically wrong than anyone in the history of this blog including the Bargnani trade defenders.

    Uhhhh what? Have you seen the timeline where we hire Mark Jackson instead? There is no way whatsoever to verify this, and I see no reason to subjectively believe it might be true. To say we were more wrong than the Bargnani defenders based on some cockamamie counterfactual is absurd.

    I mean even if Jackson’s allegedly superior Xs and Os (dubious) lead us to a few more wins last year…sounds like we have one of the shitty non-Zion/Morant/RJ prospects in this scenario.

  57. My problem with Jackson is that he’s a toxic personality

    I can’t comment on his broadcasting persona bc I rarely hear him.

    There is a reasonable defense of his paranoia in Golden State, though. They were actually trying to fire him. It’s not paranoia if they’re following you.

    You gave him shit about his assistants but Scalabrine by all accounts was insubordinate and the other one was taping him constantly. That’s about as egregious a misstep as you can make.

    “He was taping everything,” one source said. “Taping pregame speeches wouldn’t have been that bad, but he was taping guys just sitting around talking in the coaches’ office.”

    Sometimes Erman would be present during the tapings. Other times, he would leave the room and leave his phone behind to record conversations the other coaches were having.

    https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/10855864/former-golden-state-warriors-assistant-fired-secretly-recording-conversations

    That team needed a better coach, but it was still a little cut throat to can a guy who was getting those kinds of results. I don’t think it was unreasonable for him to build a wall around him and his players.

    He had an antagonistic relationship with a management group that wanted to fire him in the middle of a 51 win season. How does that translate to MSG? If he was having a 51 win season here, he’d get a lifetime extension, don’t you think?

  58. Mark Jackson was a good, hardworking coach who just wanted to do things like have the 12th best offense in the league and tell everyone that Festus Ezeli was rooting against them. He was undermined by the Deep State Never Jacksoners.

    Put me in the camp of also rooting for this now. If we’re going to totally implode (again), no reason to hold back the scale of the implosion.

  59. Why were they trying to fire him, Hubert? Because they’re just a bunch of mean meanie people? Maybe there was like a REASON they were trying to fire him.

    He was given a golden opportunity and fucked it up. And nobody has hired him since, or been interested in hiring him, except the worst organization in the NBA, our very own New York Knicks. Yeah, I’m sure this will work out just fucking outstanding.

  60. That team needed a better coach, but it was still a little cut throat to can a guy who was getting those kinds of results. I don’t think it was unreasonable for him to build a wall around him and his players.

    If we’re using results as the standard…is there a single more strongly vindicated coaching switch in the history of the NBA? Serious question. 51 win scrappy playoff team –> 67 win juggernaut with little-to-no roster turnover.

  61. He was undermined by the Deep State Never Jacksoners.

    So Darren Erman is a whistleblower?

    If you found out one of your employees was recording you, it wouldn’t be reasonable for you to feel paranoid?

  62. Given the current front office and organizational conditions, the best thing that could happen to this franchise is for a redass coach to come in and win a power struggle with Steve Mills for Dolan’s favor. We can certainly quibble about Jackson’s competence, but that’s another issue altogether.

  63. So what’s Mark Jackson like as a coach?

    His last team won 51 games!

    Wow, that’s really good-what happened the year after they fired him?

    Pretty much the same thing, they only won 67 games and an NBA title.

  64. Maybe there was like a REASON they were trying to fire him.

    I agree. But the reason for which they wanted to fire him was “inability to maximize all time great offensive firepower.” I don’t think that’s going to be a problem here for the foreseeable future!

    His strength was “molding young talent.” Isn’t that what we need right now?

  65. I mean a different coach took the same roster and won 16 more games with it and you think the first guy is a good coach?

  66. Even if Mark Jackson is a better Xs and Os guy than Fizdale, no NBA player will ever sign with the Knicks under Jackson. We’ll be giving out max contracts to Marcus Morris just to fill the required, minimum number of roster spots.

  67. His strength was “molding young talent.” That’s what we need right now.

    Yes, most people consider turning the greatest offensive weapons ever assembled into a mediocre offense as molding talent. There’s nothing quite as impressive as molding hall of famers into last year’s Nets.

  68. How does that translate to MSG? If he was having a 51 win season here, he’d get a lifetime extension, don’t you think?

    Mike Woodson lasted one season after winning 54 games and Dolan allegedly had to keep Steve Mills from firing him earlier than that (which sounds somehow familiar)

  69. Funnily enough John Hollinger and Nate Duncan were discussing this on their podcast like two days ago (in the context of ranking all 30 orgs and discussing the Warriors specifically). What Hollinger said (paraphrasing obviously) was that the general public often makes the mistake of categorizing coaches into just two groups, “good” and “bad” coaches rather than understanding them as having diverse arrays of strengths and weaknesses. So it can both be true that Mark Jackson did a pretty good job during his tenure and was the right guy for the job at that point and that getting rid of him for Kerr when they did was (obviously) the right move. Some food for thought.

  70. I mean a different coach took the same roster and won 16 more games with it and you think the first guy is a good coach?

    Those kids were 23-43 in the strike season which equates to 28 wins in an 82 game season. With Mark Jackson, that group improved from 28 wins to 47 wins in one season.

    How do you do the mental gymnastics necessary to take credit away from Jackson for the 19 win improvement while attributing the 16 win jump to firing him?

  71. no NBA player will ever sign with the Knicks under Jackson

    Yeah, no one would want to play for a guy that Steph Curry and Draymond Green vouch for. Good one.

  72. So it can both be true that Mark Jackson did a pretty good job during his tenure and was the right guy for the job at that point and that getting rid of him for Kerr when they did was (obviously) the right move. Some food for thought.

    yeah and it can just as reasonably be true that 95pct of coaches who woke up with steph klay iggy dray bogut and david lee all 23-30 would have won 50 games in 13-14 and that an average coach might have done even better. the default counterfactual is not “ten percent better per year” or “42-42.” we can argue about what it is, but 50 wins isn’t itself evidence of skill any more than doug collins taking the bulls to 50 wins was evidence of anything. my guess is that the warriors were going to inevitably be a great team and almost no coach could have stopped them. draymond was going to become a defensive genius and steph an offensive genius, while harrison barnes was going to remain a guy whose bball iq wildly undershot his actual iq, good development coaching or mediocre development coaching. don’t make me send you guys better sonos speakers because i’ll do it. he is literally in your house every year telling you that he is not thoughtful about basketball. maybe we should hire jon barry or reggie miller.

    note that fizdale took a quite elderly grizz team and brought them from 20 something in defense to i think 7th. are there probably non-coach reasons for that? yeah, that’s kinda the point.

  73. There are tons good coaches out there who would kill to coach the Knicks or any other NBA team.

    Are there? Oh, I am sure we can find some beerleague coach to come here and take the reigns. But no reputable coach with options is going to come here so they can be the latest coach to be thrown under the bus by Steve Mills.

  74. Exactly. The same arguments in favor of Jackson being a good coach when he coached the Warriors apply to Fizdale being a good coach when he coached the Grizzlies.

  75. The fact that rumors are swirling around a blackballed HC like Mark Jackson as our next head coaching hire only proves no reputable coach with options would come to work for this current Knicks front office.

  76. “Hiring Mark Jackson might be a good idea” is such a strange hill to die on. I don’t really get it. I think we can do better than “better than Fizdale.”

    Just promote one of the internal guys for the rest of the season if you gotta fire Fiz. If that seems to work out, great. If not, try again in the offseason.

  77. Just think about it, there’s been 5 years and no team has ever hired Jackson, even franchises that cycled through a ton of coaches like Phoenix or Sacramento never went for him. It can’t be a coincidence.

  78. I appreciate the folks who are honest about not wanting Jackson as a coach for political/cultural reasons. I think I’m getting whiplash, however, from being told Mark Jackson can’t coach while Mitch Robinson is a sure-fire hall of famer.

    Mike

  79. The vast athletic culture is as ignorant on the equality of humans as Mark Jackson is. 20 to 1 says Mitchell Robinson would say something stupid if a reporter asked him about a gay teammate.

    So Mark Jackson’s known homophobia ain’t so bad since an unquantifiable # of NBA players are also likely homophobic? That’s your point?

    The whole giving Mitch odds on being a gay basher is weird. Why choose him? Cause he was awkward in a few interviews?

  80. In Draymond Green’s age 22 rookie season he had a .404 TS%, -3.1 BPM, and -0.3 VORP. And that was after four years of seasoning at Michigan State. I don’t know that his ascent to stardom was guaranteed. That’s equal to Frank Ntilikina’s Age 19 rookie season, who our coach might give up on before he even turns 22.

    Steph Curry was always going to be a legendary scorer but he was as a terrible defender when he was young. Like Trae Young Dame Lillard bad.

    Under Mark Jackson that team went from 27th in DRtg to 15th to 4th. But y’all think that was inevitable no matter who coached the team. Meanwhile, you also think because the same team went from 12th in ORtg to 2nd the year he left, that is proof that he can’t coach.

    That is unusual for this group, to say the least.

  81. Question: why do you think Mike Miller was promoted?

    Dolan’s Razor says the next coach will be Keith Smart or Mark Jackson.

    Occam’s Razor points in Miller’s direction.

    Pills’ Razor meanwhile is staring in a very creepy way at Wiggins

  82. That is unusual for this group, to say the least.

    Maybe this board has a much more holistic view about coaches than it does about players. I’m firmly in that camp, honestly.

  83. Just think about it, there’s been 5 years and no team has ever hired Jackson, even franchises that cycled through a ton of coaches like Phoenix or Sacramento never went for him. It can’t be a coincidence.

    He’s making 7 figures right now broadcasting games. He wants the Knicks job and thinks he’s next in line. He and Van Gundy have both turned down interviews with other teams. They’re not leaving unless they get exactly what they want.

  84. That is unusual for this group, to say the least.

    I mean, this has never been a board that put THAT much stock in coaches. I think the consensus view here has long been that they have a much more marginal impact on wins and losses than generally accepted.

    We love to complain about them of course but usually with some caveat like “no coach in history could make this a 40 win team.”

    Or maybe I am just projecting…

  85. Maybe this board has a much more holistic view about coaches than it does about players. I’m firmly in that camp, honestly.

    Sorry, Farfa, I love you and your recaps, and I believe that you, personally, are taking a holistic approach here bc that’s consistent with your general reasoning.

    But the guys who are anti Jackson have no history of making arguments like this. You can’t say the jump from 12th to 2nd in ORtg and from 51 wins to 67 proves he was a bad coach and then say the jump from 27th to 4th in DRtg and from 28 wins to 51 is not indicative of him bc the players did it on their own.

  86. this coaching speculation is kind of moot anyway… it’s pretty rare for a coach to be replaced by an outsider midseason… last time that happened was george karl who replaced mike malone with the kings back in 2015.. and d’antoni who replaced mike brown with the lakers…. and the reason it’s rare is because that outsider will need to work with the same staff as his predecessor… who wants to come into that?

    it could happen considering the circumstances… but it’s also not the best way to go since you will have a bigger pool of candidates to consider in the offseason… that’s why firing midseason kind of sucks… you’re basically promoting someone off the same bench that led to the disaster….

    if we’re really cleaning house the best approach is to wipe everything after the season… thankfully dolan usually reserves his front office shakeups to the offseason but of course that doesn’t mean something weird can’t happen soooo.. ¯_(?)_/¯

  87. yeah and it can just as reasonably be true that 95pct of coaches who woke up with steph klay iggy dray bogut and david lee all 23-30 would have won 50 games in 13-14 and that an average coach might have done even better.

    To be clear those were Hollinger’s points, not mine.

    It does seem to me like what you’re arguing is that basically only subjective evaluations of coaches are relevant. If we’re sure that the guy is a bad coach (I guess because he sucks at commentary and because also he’s a bad guy) then the fact that the team is getting better every year is weak evidence in the face of our prior conviction that he’s a bad coach. I’m not saying that’s wrong, but man does it seem to me like this argument gets trotted out only where convenient.

    Basically if your take is that a coach’s record really doesn’t tell us hardly anything about whether he’s a good coach I don’t think that’s unreasonable but it seems like that gets deployed (not by you specifically, but in general) exclusively to downplay the accomplishments of guys who on the surface don’t “seem” like good coaches (I also think that tends to line up heavily along racial lines but that’s maybe a fight for a different thread) and almost never anywhere else.

  88. What other obviously insane things can we get people to defend?

    I went out to dinner with an old friend who is now a Trump supporter, and we stayed away politics. In searching for common ground, I made a Martin Shkreli reference, thinking that was somebody that was safe to have common opposition to. But, nope. I got a 30 minute lecture on how he was an American hero. #insanethingspeopletrytodefend

  89. a blackballed HC like Mark Jackson

    lol you think he’s blackballed?

    you think ESPN hired a guy blackballed by the NBA? You’re challenging Bunge for worst take.

  90. I went out to dinner with an old friend who is now a Trump supporter, and we stayed away politics. In searching for common ground, I made a Martin Shkreli reference, thinking that was somebody that was safe to have common opposition to. But, nope. I got a 30 minute lecture on how he was an American hero. #insanethingspeopletrytodefend

    I could have predicted that. I’ve met some Shkreli lovers.

    Not all trump supporters are in the aggrieved victim camp, but the ones who are love Shkreli. There’s an actual fan club that goes to bars.

  91. The 51-win team had better players closer to their peaks than the 28-win team.

    The core of the 28-win team was David Lee, Brandon Rush, Dorrell Wright, Klay Thompson, Monta Ellis, Nate Robinson, Dominic McGuire, Charles Jenkins, Ekpe Udoh and Andres Biedrins. They were the top 10 players in minutes. Steph Curry was 11th.

    The core of the 51-win team was Klay Thompson, Steph Curry, David Lee, Harrison Barnes, Andre Iguodala, Draymond Green, Andrew Bogut, Mareese Speights, Jermaine O’Neal and Jordan Crawford.

    We’re really gonna attribute any of this to Mark Jackson’s coaching? That first roster is full of bums, the second roster is full of very good players.

    Come on with this bullshit already.

  92. So let me get this straight. The Knicks are dead last in team offense and we all watch the games and know this is true. They have been last or next to last all season. We are not dead last in defense and have been as high as 17 in adjusted league rankings. But the only coaches I see proposed here, except for me proposing Stan van Gundy, are good defensively but run iso heavy offenses. This seems crazy to me. Don’t we want a decent offense and to have our young players learn one?

  93. On a different topic since I saw it up above re: KP, is “spaces the floor” the new “tilts the defense”?

  94. And the team that went from 15th in DRtg to 4th? How much turnover was in that roster? That was internal improvement. But going from 12th to 2nd in ORtg was coaching?

    There’s some bullshit today alright.

  95. And the team that went from 15th in DRtg to 4th? How much turnover was in that roster? That was internal improvement. But going from 12th to 2nd in ORtg was coaching?

    Yeah, other than adding Andre fucking Iguodala to the team and giving way more minutes to Draymond Green there was hardly any difference in the minutes allocations. Giving Jarrett Jack’s minutes to two-time all defensive team player Andre Iguodala probably had nothing to do with it. Musta been all the “hand down man down” stuff, they probably started paying more attention to that and that’s the reason why.

  96. It does seem to me like what you’re arguing is that basically only subjective evaluations of coaches are relevant.

    finally someone gets me. my point all along has been

    1. all coaching analysis ultimately devolve into solipsism, thus
    2. nobody shall dare offer positive evidence about mark jackson on the internet, except
    3. bryan colangelo and kd, but then only providing that
    4. the argument exists solely in the subjective ether between burner and bona fide

    but also
    1. a coach who wins 50 games with a MUCH different team than a previous coach who won 36 games year earlier
    2. is terrible prima facia evidence and requires a better counterfactual that takes some thinking to generate and can’t simply be replaced with words like “improvement” and “identity” and “development”
    3. is very likely worse (objective) evidence than a subsequent coach winning 67 games with a less different team the following year
    4. and given that uncertain but seemingly negative net evidence it is, yes, also worth pointing out that (subjectively) if you guys have ears and still think mark jackson is a good basketball mind you should consider donating those years to someone who will use them and
    5. wait until you find out about jason kidd and how he developed the shit out of giannis and the larry drew bucks from his crappy rookie year

  97. giving way more minutes to Draymond Green

    Gotcha. So a giving more minutes to a guy who turned in a season worse than Frank Ntilikina is nothing to credit a coach for. Every coach in the NBA is lining up to integrate 2nd round picks with a .404 TS% and -3.1 BPM.

  98. I am agnostic on who should coach the knicks. So far, the best idea I’ve heard thrown out there is to trade for Chris Paul and save the money on a coach altogether.

    But it does appear that coaching impact, like individual defensive performance, is difficult to quantify, so people arrange the limited data available into arguments that bolster their preconceived ideas of somebody. This thread is interesting because those that hated listening to Mark Jackson commentate are the most anti-hiring Mark Jackson. Whereas those who remember Jackson as a Knick, and a Knick-beating Pacer, are maybe more likely to see 51 wins, and listen to player testimonials.

    We were discussing the Popovich coaching tree the other day. The funny thing is that the Knicks have actually grown a lot of assists that have become solid head coaches: Van Gundy, Thibodeau, Steve Clifford, Michael Malone, etc… New York would have done well to have just stuck to in-house promotions. (In house promotions for people besides a Herb Williams, that is)

  99. Also, re: your other ridiculous screaming point…. this guy has a toxic personality.

    Never mind that his players loved him, that he spent 16 years in the league without a story about not getting along with anyone, that he was made pastor of his church, and that his broadcast partners welcomed him back with open arms.

    You know that he has a toxic personality. Can’t get along with anyone. Joe Lacob said so. He got discredited immediately by his own employees, but he said so.

  100. I think the consensus view here has long been that they have a much more marginal impact on wins and losses than generally accepted.

    Berry had done a research and came to this conclusion but this was years ago. Has there been anything since then?

  101. that he was made pastor of his church

    Yes, that’s right, he reminds us all the time about how devoutly religious he is. Never mind the dick pics to strippers thing, that doesn’t reveal him to be a sanctimonious hypocrite at all.

    Maybe we can save a few bucks on medical staff and have him pray over our players while they jump up and down on their injured limbs.

  102. First, great summary again, Farfa. I was rolling on the floor laughing!
    I’m 61 and still playing D&D. I wish (9th level spell) that we could just fast forward to next year’s draft.

    So when do we think Fizdale gets fired? After KP drops 50 on us? Next week? Next month? Next year? I’m not convinced that’s happening so fast.

    My take is that when Fiz is finally canned, he’ll breath a sigh of relief and he’ll have a bunch of great quotes that’ll tear up Knick management. He was sold a bill of goods on what the team he would be coaching would be like and it’s nothing like that. All evidence points to him not being a good coach.

    Why is Mark Jackson the only name we’re discussing? I’m tired of this crap. Let’s get a teacher in here and teach these kids like the kids they are.

  103. I’ll give you the sanctimonious hypocrite. Doesn’t make him a toxic personality.

    And look, it’s nearly impossible to quantify the impact of coaching on performance, but one thing that is undeniably down to the coach is who is on the court and for how long. It’s ridiculous to say “they just got better because Draymond Green played more.” Draymond Green was abjectly terrible in his age 22 season. Frank Ntilikina bad. And Jackson stuck with him. He didn’t point at Ekpe Udoh and say “I’m gonna fix you” while he threw Green under the bus because he was struggling. That’s not irrelevant shit.

  104. I’ll give you the sanctimonious hypocrite. Doesn’t make him a toxic personality.

    I don’t know, man. I don’t see a lot of daylight there. The kind of person who sends dick pics to strippers, has a wife and four kids and prattles on in a judgmental way about his Christianity… That’s just not really a guy I trust in any dimension. We all have our demons, and hey, who hasn’t partied with strippers, but that kind of self-aggrandizing public posturing while secretly being a scumbag is kind of revealing. Then you factor in the other stuff about how he left Golden State and the dumb shit he says all the time on television and it’s a pretty hard fucking “no” for me.

    Everything about the man screams “charlatan” to me. If he gets this gig it ain’t gonna end well.

  105. The Warriors 2011-12 team was coached by defensive guru and not clown Mark Jackson and they won 23 games and had one of the worst defenses in the NBA, despite Mark Jackson’s sage wisdom and teaching. The next year, after getting rid of defensive stalwarts like Monta Ellis and Nate Robinson and replacing them with a variety of good defenders, the defense. . .got better. I think that has a lot more to do with the players than the coach. The defense also got even better after Mark Jackson left (probably because they played Draymond more). I think you can get a better defensive performance out of the Knicks by playing Mitchell Robinson more and jiggling the rotations, and maybe doing some better coaching, but we’ve seen what happens when you give Mark Jackson a roster full of shitty defensive players-they play shitty defense.

  106. I have to admit I don’t watch many broadcasts. If he’s an annoying announcer, I get the hate more.

  107. So we know if you give Mark Jackson a roster with guys on it who can play defense he’s competent enough to get them to play good defense, but he can’t cobble a good offense out of a team with some of the best offensive players in NBA history, so we should give him the Knicks, who have maybe two good defensive players and nobody who can play offense. If you couldn’t coach a steph curry led team to a top 10 offense what the fuck are you going to do with a team led on offense by Julius Randle?

  108. I think you can get a better defensive performance out of the Knicks by playing Mitchell Robinson more and jiggling the rotations, and maybe doing some better coaching, but we’ve seen what happens when you give Mark Jackson a roster full of shitty defensive players-they play shitty defense.

    I might be defending him based entirely on the assumption that he will favor Frank over Smith, Morris over Randle, play Mitch constantly, use Gibson as the backup C, and leave Bobby Portis out of the rotation completely. If I can get someone other than mark jackson to come in here and play those guys, I’d do it.

  109. If he’s an annoying announcer?

    I am surprised he wasn’t the pastor of The Church of the Mid Range J

  110. The Warriors 2011-12 team was coached by defensive guru and not clown Mark Jackson and they won 23 games and had one of the worst defenses in the NBA, despite Mark Jackson’s sage wisdom and teaching. The next year, after getting rid of defensive stalwarts like Monta Ellis and Nate Robinson and replacing them with a variety of good defenders, the defense. . .got better.

    Getting rid of the hyper popular Monta Ellis because he refused to play defense is the EXACT kind of culture change we need in NY. You can give credit to the front office, Jackson, or both, but the coach has a say in the kinds of players he wants to coach and Ellis got the boot.

  111. What I really want:

    A Payton-Barrett backcourt with Frank playing 25-30 mins backing up both positions. Dotson gets the 4th guard minutes.

    Knox as the starting 3 with Barrett sliding up to 3 when he sits, maybe sometimes Morris sliding down.

    Morris at the 4.

    Mitch at the 5. Gibson backing him up.

    No Portis. No Smith. Trade Trier, Ellington, and Randle for picks. Fill out the roster with fliers. The Randle bit is the one I’m least adamant about. Maybe I’m being harsh.

    I don’t care who the coach is just play the guys who play d and do it consistently.

  112. I don’t like Jesus-y stuff in sports, but I’ve never been one to outright rule out a guy because he’s Jesus-y (or even hypocritically Jesus-y, because that kind of goes with the territory.) That’s a bridge way too far. Charlie Ward made those really Jesus-y remarks that bordered on anti-Semitic in the NYT magazine in like 1998 and caught some grief for it, but there just wasn’t the inclination then that he should be un-personed for that alone like there is now. (It’s social media that’s the cause of the change, but that’s a different discussion.)

    It’s just kind of off-putting, and not remotely in an own the libs way, to see a former Knick point guard who obviously has a high basketball IQ and has had some coaching success have all that forgotten or misrepresented just because he’s a bit Jesus-y. I mean, no, he hasn’t been “blackballed” by the NBA — he’s been a co-lead color announcer on the NBA’s marquee games including the Finals for like five straight years now. The most woke sports network broadcasting the games of the most woke sports league has featured him front and center for years. So let’s be serious now.

    He wouldn’t be my first choice or second choice or third choice or fourth choice. I don’t really want him. But for basketball reasons. And he’s a way better coach than David Fizdale. It’s not even close.

  113. Except it’s not because he’s Jesus-y, it’s because he’s a phony and a hypocrite. It’s the self-aggrandizing holier-than-thou public persona that’s grating, and when you mix in the strippers and the dick pics it’s all a bit much. The kind of person that behaves that way is probably going to behave in other self-serving and hypocritical ways.

    This really has nothing to do with “wokeness,” it’s about “will this guy succeed as coach of the Knicks?” I don’t see it. He’s a phony, a charlatan. And if you listen to him on broadcasts, he has a dinosaur mentality of how the game of basketball should be played.

  114. I’m not a fan of Mark Jackson and don’t want him here, but its really disingenious to say he was a bad coach based off of nothing but your own personal dislike of the guy.

    He did an objectively decent to good job with Golden State. There is no evidence that Green or Thompson were automatically going to be great players and you could argue the same could be said even with Steph. Comparing his tenure there to that of Fizdale in Memphis is just not a good look.

    Keep in mind, people thought Golden State was a dysfunctional franchise before this current championship run. Mark Jackson was one of the people who was part of that initial turn around.

  115. I almost hope he gets hired just for the “I told you so” factor. I mean, we’re a joke anyway, might as well lean all the way into it.

    Phil Jackson came here as a legendary champion and brilliant basketball mind and left here a drooling old clueless buffoon. Mike Dantoni came in praised as an architect of the modern NBA and left as an arrogant loser. Larry Brown, Lenny Wilkins, and every player and coach in the Dolan-Mills era left here with their reputation in tatters

    What would happen to someone who starts out as Mark Jackson?

  116. As far as i remember GSW had to choose between their back then stud Monta and ankle injury prone Steph somewhere in 2012, one year after they hired MJackson.
    They chose Steph.
    Who called Mark Jackson “a great coach” AfteR the warriors fired him.
    And they built a dynasty after firing him while at the same time revolutionized the game with their jumpshoot extravaganza.

    Do i want Jackson ?

    idk
    50-50

  117. Jackson replaced Keith Smart as a Warriors coach.
    Maybe we should make Keith an interim coach then get Jackson in 2020 and Kerr in 2021.
    Choose between Frank and DSJ and probably build a new dynasty !!!!

  118. I’d like to see Frank, Dot, RJ at the 3, one of Morris or Randle at the 4, and Mitch. RJ is big enough to guard most 3s.

    Re Jackson – let’s just not do it. Thanks would rather JVG 1000 times out of 1000. The guy is tactically brilliant, always had teams overachieve, always played great defense, and his players all absolutely loved him. He understands New York, has already succeeded here, and no one has a bad thing to say about his character.

    That said, no way in the world JVG comes back under Mills. He knows and has said many times that the roster is the most important thing, and I can’t imagine he would trust Mills to give him a winning roster. I assume JVG wouldn’t want both GM and HC titles after what happened to his brother and Thibs.

  119. Disclosure- I was at the famous JVG holding onto Zo’s leg like a chihuahua game. Still one of the most amazing displays of commitment by anyone ever in sports. 5’8” guy going to the floor to protect his player from a 6’10” absolute beast of a man. MSG would give him a 10 minute standing ovation at his first intro. I would get tickets to the game just to do that.

  120. I couldn’t possibly care less that Jackson is devoutly religious. I could even deal with the obvious hypocrisy (i.e. the dick picks) if he wasn’t otherwise a pompous ass. I’m not sure some of you realize just how much there is out there about this guy. Some of it is verified/not denied, some of it less so, but put it all together and you get one big “DO NOT HIRE” warning plastered all over him. To top it all off, at a bare minimum there’s no evidence his Xs and Os are any good. I think there are reasons to believe they’re bad when you look at his teams and listen to the guy talk, but whatever.

    I really am rooting for this now. I’m personally in it for the hilarity, but maybe this will be the one obviously-stupid-as-hell-at-the-time thing we do that turns out well. We’re about 0/100 over the last twenty years with the “do stupid ass shit and hope somehow it works out” strategy but I guess there’s a first time for everything.

  121. I think we should hire Mark Jackson. It would mean that I can watch ESPN broadcasts without hearing his voice and I’d have a great reason to never watch the Knicks again. Seems like a win-win.

  122. I might be okay with Jackson replacing Wally, but that’s about it.

    Oh man, now you’ve really hit on the perfect “root for the laughs” choice. Coach Wally. It’d be amazing.

  123. Talking yourself into Mark Jackson is like wearing a double set of beer goggles and trying to get laid with a bonobo at the local zoo

    sucking elephant dicks, getting laid with bonobos…losing does horrible things to the mind…

  124. Seriously, has anyone ever heard a dumber analyst than Wally? He makes Mark Jackson sound like a Mensa bigwig (now that I know one I can say that!)

  125. Seriously, has anyone ever heard a dumber analyst than Wally? He makes Mark Jackson sound like a Mensa bigwig (now that I know one I can say that!)

    Jackson is so bad, but when you made me think about it, I think you’re right, Mark Jackson actually does sound more intelligent about basketball than Wally (and Mark Jackson does not sound intelligent about basketball at all).

  126. Anyone have access to offensive fouls per game for the entire league? I’m watching the Grizz/Hornets game and they are calling them left and right on what looks like an obvious blocking foul to me.

  127. yeah offensive fouls are up this year. about 5.4 per game (meaning both teams) with 1.6 of them charges vs last year 3.7 per game with 1.1 of them charges. but it’s been trending down from a very high start to the year.

  128. I flagged it on another thread, but have we completely ruled out Whoopi Goldberg? Was a solid coach in Eddie.

    If we are already looking to replacements for Fiz, I wouldn’t hate giving Jerry Stackhouse a go. Had a very decent record in the G-League, and I think there is something to be said about the development nous of guys coaching in a largely developmental environment.

  129. It is a bit sad to me that some posters on his board have decided that, just because it “goes against the grain”, that it is fine to call people hypocrites for not wanting Mark fucking Jackson to coach this team, the guy who had one coaching job in his entire career, collected a number of batshit crazy stories about his tenure and had no chances to coach ever since he was fired 5 years ago, right before the best team in the league became a juggernaut.

    I get that some people have abrasive personalities and just want to be against whatever they perceive to be the “dominant” argument for the sake of it, but it is sad to see this sort of random attack on people who just see how illogical it is to give a chance to phony ass Mark fucking Jackson.

  130. From earlier: asked Wednesday about NYK’s struggles, Kristaps Porzingis said, “The city is always hungry for success in basketball. And for them — for the fans — and the city to be going through that year after year, it’s got to be tough.”

    He’s got some things figured out….

  131. But they’re all ad hominem attacks, right? Just like if I were to say that Art Briles were fired for his role in suppressing the reporting and investigation of several dozen rapes by his players, I would be making an ad hominem attack that has nothing to do with his ability to field a competitive football team. Just like if I said that Rick Pitino were a guy who used escorts to lure blue-chip recruits to his college basketball team, I wouldn’t be commenting on his ability as a basketball coach.

  132. How about hiring Chinese FO duet+Coach to fix the Moreygate after arranging with ASilver to ‘give’ us 2 Number 1s picks for that ?

  133. I hear Starbury is doing good things coaching in China. Who wouldn’t want to see that reunion?

  134. Is there a continuing series here at KB: Who Wants to Die on Jackson Hill?

    – Yesterday Strat made a compelling case that the aging yoda-like BB mind of Phil Jackson was deceived by the demon rum from the Mills still. How could anyone expect Phil to understand the complexity of a NTC? Why should such a intellect even deign to care about such green-eye shade stuff? Poor Phil had no chance against jiggers like CAA and Mills.
    – All praise to Hubert! His stirring defense of Mark Jackson – why the leadership of this misunderstood man left me wishing I had a gay child I could entrust to MJ’s conversion therapy. In the meantime, I’ll just hope my boy sprains an ankle so I could show up at MSG when he’s coach to tap his faith healing powers.
    – Next up, tomorrow djphan will explain why 2005 Knick Jermaine Jackson was our best guard in the last 2 decades because of his sky high 2FG% and FTr.

    If we’re not gonna be entertaining on the court, then I want us to be entertaining off the court. DRAMA. So yeah, gimme Jackson and Mills so long as a hidden camera captures their behind the scenes cloak-and-dagger machinations against one another. That’s not possible now that Dolan’s spun off the entertainment division so I’ll settle for trading for CP3 and making Kobe Bryant the coach. Or, if we want to be an elite organization, why not first ensure our coach and FO could be part of an elitist organization. Just make it a requirement that the coach/GM/POBO pass the Mensa exam.

  135. i can not imagine any situation imaginable wherein any one can imagine the new york knicks reaching the magical 41 win season mark in at least the next three years…

    yeah fuck it… I don’t give a shit who you bring in. You can bring in the militia, L.A. Thunderbirds, the ghost of Steve fuckin’ McQueen, ten fuckin’ Roman gladiators…I don’t give a shit as long as we don’t still suck in 2022…

  136. who hasn’t partied with strippers

    I must sheepishly admit that I have not partied with strippers, at least not knowingly.

    Put me in the “Please no no no Mark Jackson” camp.

  137. i am hoping and praying jimmy d does not allow millsperry to fire fiz…

    if jimmy has half a brain – or, at least a third of an ear to someone whom has half of a brain – he’ll know that if he is even contemplating a front office move – the new front office person should be hiring the new coach…

    otherwise you’re just gonna piss away another bunch of millions – unless it’s an interim from within…

    than yeah – let fiz fly…let it be miller time…

  138. I think Kenny Smith and Sam Cassell are two guys we should keep our eyes on for the next head coaching job. I don’t think Mark Jackson will ever coach again in the NBA.

    I did ask myself “self, what’s the worst situation the Knicks can end up in after Mills/Perry/Fizdale get fired?” The answer? Mark Jackson signs on to be the POBO and Head Coach of the Knicks after he convinces Dolan in an interview that he was responsible for the building and coaching the Warriors dynasty before he got wrongly ousted.

  139. The Knicks need to have Mitch watch tape of Tyson Chandler setting picks. He knows how to do it right.

  140. As far as POBOs go, I think it’s a lock Darryl Morey gets fired after the season. Tillman Fertita used like half his net worth to buy the Rockets and they have a huge fanbase in China. Add to that, Morey’s Rockets have reached their zenith and will never win a championship, I think Fertita’s impatience shines through and fires Morey and D’Antoni for “real basketball guys” like….Mark Jackson and Steve Mills. That being said, we should be first in line to hire Morey. It’s very likely he’d like to keep working, and I’m S-U-R-E James Dolan will love to have a guy who has landed Dwight Howard, James Harden, Russell Westbrook, and Chris Paul in the last decade. Morey also fleeced us before Masai Ujiri did, and I think that counts for something. The bottom line is Morey knows how to land stars and there’s no way Dolan turns a guy like that down.

    My first choice for POBO/HC this summer would be Morey and JVG. If we had those two guys I’d actually start buying tickets to MSG.

  141. I get that some people have abrasive personalities and just want to be against whatever they perceive to be the “dominant” argument for the sake of it, but it is sad to see this sort of random attack on people who just see how illogical it is to give a chance to phony ass Mark fucking Jackson.

    Dude, come on.

    All of you combined have yet to come up with one irrefutable good reason to support your assertion that he’s a bad coach.

    Y’all hate him. It’s fine. But there are real reasons to think Mark Jackson is a decent hire for this team at this stage besides “going against the grain.” First and foremost being his coaching history, which is actually demonstrably positive.

  142. If Mark Jackson is such a great coach then why has he been unemployed for over 5 years now?

    I’d rather we give a shot to someone with an IQ above 150 who never coached in the NBA before like Ujiri did.

  143. But they’re all ad hominem attacks, right? Just like if I were to say that Art Briles were fired for his role in suppressing the reporting and investigation of several dozen rapes by his players, I would be making an ad hominem attack that has nothing to do with his ability to field a competitive football team. Just like if I said that Rick Pitino were a guy who used escorts to lure blue-chip recruits to his college basketball team, I wouldn’t be commenting on his ability as a basketball coach.

    It’s more like you saying Patrick Ewing was a bad center bc of his role in Gold Club. Or Phil Jackson was a bad coach bc he performed Native American rituals with his players.

  144. If Mark Jackson is such a great coach then why has he been unemployed for over 5 years now?

    He currently makes $1.3mm a year working part time for ESPN. It’s not a bad gig.

  145. Hubert I think you’re seriously undervaluing how easy it is to win basketball games with Steph Curry, Draymond Green, Andre Iguodala and Klay Thompson. Mike Brown went 12-0 coaching the Warriors. Luke Walton was 39-4.

  146. Don’t trade for Andrew Wiggins.

    I mean, obviously we shouldn’t, but since we’re all saying ridiculous and heretical shit today anyway… at what point does the currently very small sample size become big enough where we’re allowed to ask if the light has somehow gone on for Wiggins?

    #SorryNotSorry

  147. Maybe I just don’t think a 2nd round pick who put up Frank-Ntilikina-level stats at age 22 becomes an All NBA player without someone doing some good development work along the way. That’s not some crazy “i just want to be different” idea.

    Curry, Klay, and Green all credit Jackson for developing their mastery of the mental side of the game for them. I value that. I’d like to see someone do that kind of work with Frank, Barrett, Knox, Mitch.

  148. To me it’s not “is Mark Jackson a good coach?” It’s more “will hiring Mark Jackson lead to complete chaos?”

    He got fired from a plum job because he rubbed too many people the wrong way. He’s also a ridiculous person what with the dick pics and the prayer dances and the hand down man down and all of the inanities he spouts as a broadcaster.

    How about just hiring somebody fucking normal? He just seems like a bad risk. This is not a particularly easy organization to work for even for those who have their shit together. You can’t separate his coaching ability, whatever that is, from his ridiculousness as a person.

    “And then Mark Jackson came in and saved the day” is a timeline that doesn’t exist.

  149. Two things:

    1. Do not hire Mark Jackson. He is terrible and runs boring offensive sets. Plus he is a trash person.

    2. We need an interim coach so our new GM and President (Masai) can start next year with a clean slate and not be tied to the shitty coach Mills or Perry hires. They are the ones that chose Fizdale over Budenholzer.

  150. Draymond Green was a very good college player who didn’t have a good rookie season. Steph Curry was good before Mark Jackson. Klay Thompson didn’t get noteably good until they fired Mark Jackson. Andre Iguodala was a great basketball player before he got to the Warriors. Andrew Bogut had injury issues but he’d always been productive on the court. We should hire Mark Jackson because Draymond Green turned out to be a great player is a lot.

  151. Maybe I just don’t think a 2nd round pick who put up Frank-Ntilikina-level stats at age 22 becomes an All NBA player without someone doing some good development work along the way. That’s not some crazy “i just want to be different” idea.

    Or maybe it took a coach playing Green at his best position and not destroying his value by playing him at SF.

    The media affirmations by players are completely meaningless PR BS. It speaks much more loudly that Jackson has not had a job since. Actions and words, actions and words.

    I, for one, cannot wait for Mark Jackson’s iso Morris Sr. and Bobby Portis sets. We definitely do not get enough of those already.

  152. james wiseman is the unquestioned #1 pick and i don’t see that changing… the only question is whether or not he is better or worse than kat….

  153. Can Wiseman fit in with Mitch or does that bog down the offense? From the little I know, there’s a number of promising point guards so I wouldn’t hate missing the #1 overall pick.

  154. Even if you believe that Preacher Mark is an above average coach for developing young talent, the downside of his drama is way too high to justify hiring him. There are other decent developmental coaches out there that don’t come with his red flags.

  155. that i dont know… wiseman hasn’t really passed all that much… which is how i judge if two bigs can work together… he has a jumper tho which is ok at the moment…

  156. Wiggins had another huge all around game. This time against the Spurs. If he’s finally breaking out and becoming a legitimate #2 option for the T-Wolves, they have a pretty nice team. They don’t have enough to be a serious playoff team and could even struggle to make it this year in the deep west, but if he’s for real the core is there. Then they just need a player like Culver to develop and add a few defenders over time and they’ll be set for years of good basketball. Wiggins is still only 24. It may not be a false alarm. You’d expect him to just start coming into his peak now.

  157. @154

    I’m slowly coming to the conclusion that Morey is not as smart as we all thought. That team was positioned to win a championship. You can argue they had the best team the year CP3 got hurt. They probably would have won the championship if he didn’t get hurt. But since then I think they’ve been going backwards as a team and in style of play. D’Antonio’s offense is barely even recognizable at this point. They’ll have a lot of success in the regular season, but there are a few teams in the west I’ll take over them in the playoffs. Westbrook and Harden are 2 elite talents that do not play winning playoff basketball and he put them together. I don’t think that’s going to end well in the playoffs.

  158. Counterpoint: so far Porzingis has sucked

    you happen to be correct, but you have no idea why or how to measure it better than what some broken model that was wrong for 3 years has to say.

  159. you happen to be correct, but you have no idea why or how to measure it better than what some broken model that was wrong for 3 years has to say.

    OK Boomer

  160. Personally, I don’t want Mark Jackson as the coach. I think we can do better.

    However, this is starting to look like another of those topics where people are so dug into their positions they aren’t thinking in an unbiased fashion or listening carefully to what the other side is actually saying.

    At that point it almost becomes counter productive to try to sway people towards a more balanced view because they just view you as the opposition and dig in deeper.

    It would be like me (not a Trump supporter) saying I’m happy Trump finally seems to be rejecting the advice of the neocons on foreign policy and going back to the positions he campaigned on and then elaborating on why I think that’s good news.

    Since people are so dug in on their Trump hate, instead me making some people realize that the crazy narcissist might actually be doing something right, people will reject me and the argument because it’s Trump, they hate Trump too much to accept something positive, and will focus on all the downsides of what he’s doing instead.

    I’m not sure when this kind of extremism started.

    I’ve been arguing sh$t on the internet for as long as there’s been one, but I’d say in the last 10-12 years it has become much harder to find anyone that can find the middle on any subject or that listens carefully to the perspective of the other side.

  161. I am very happy with RJ Barrett. Especially when a future coach (other than Mark Jackson) gets to play him at the 3 when the dumb-dumbs who run this team change the roster configuration of this team to give them a normal modern NBA set-up where a 3 like Barrett actually gets to play the 3. So I am pumped about him. Very happy with him.

    I’m very pleased that the Knicks have him. It’s all good. Most promising Knick rookie in many years.

    So I’m very happy about who the Knicks drafted.

    Very happy.

    But Ja Morant, man….

  162. I mean, obviously we shouldn’t, but since we’re all saying ridiculous and heretical shit today anyway… at what point does the currently very small sample size become big enough where we’re allowed to ask if the light has somehow gone on for Wiggins?

    It is almost certainly more complicated than this, but Wiggins may be indicative of how much a focused front office and coach can do for a patient. It’s no secret that they have steered him away from his worst habits (ie. cutting his mid-long range 2’s from 30-40% of his shots to 20% of his shots, shooting more 3’s etc) and at least so far, it’s had a dramatic impact. Compare that to our team, where Fizdale embraces his players’ worst instincts.

  163. We should hire Mark Jackson because Draymond Green turned out to be a great player is a lot.

    I promise to make this my last commentary, but I want to sum up my misquoted position and then drop it forever:

    I think Mark Jackson created a good environment for young players to develop. I think that’s what we need right now because this shit is very detrimental to guys like Barrett, Mitch, Frank, Knox. Jax would not be on my list of 100 candidates to hire if all things were equal, but of the guys most likely to consider working for Mills and Perry in the middle of the season after Fizdale gets canned, he will probably be the best choice.

    I’m done, let’s all shit on Porzingis now.

  164. Wiggins is going to have a few 4-16 games and we will all forget about this aberration.

  165. But, nope. I got a 30 minute lecture on how he was an American hero.

    Hey, someone had to buy that Wu Tang album….

  166. @162

    I almost threw that particular Molotov cocktail yesterday! But was too traumatized by the prospect of Hand Down becoming our next coach to hang around for the debate….

  167. I’m done, let’s all shit on Porzingis now.

    Why do I have the feeling we are going to be the shittee and not the shitter tonight???

  168. Why do I have the feeling we are going to be the shittee and not the shitter tonight???

    Luka Doncic

    Also I have to say that rumors of Lebron’s demise were greatly exaggerated. Goddamn that guy is good at basketball. He’s leading the league in AST% with what is by far his career-best!

  169. Luka Doncic

    Could not agree with you more…. he is a special talent…. but I fear Randle is getting the KP assignment tonight and that can’t possible work out well.

    All we need is for Luka to get Mono like Sam Darnold and we are looking at 2 high lottery picks…… Am I a terrible person for thinking that???

  170. I’m not sure which team to root for tonight. I want Fiz out and a monster KP performance and Mavs 20+ victory might impel the impulsive Dolan to order Mills to fire Fiz. Tinfoil conspiracy: Is it possible Fiz wants to be fired when Bron told him after Mills/Perry press conference that he’d install him as the coach of his hometown Lakers? That no defense lineup he used against Chicago is strong evidence.

    What happens after Fiz is fired? Interim coach Miller makes most sense if Dolan is thinking of maybe firing the entire FO this summer and throwing major jack at Ujiri. But Dolan may think org is at defcon 1 and needs a former Knick to replace Fiz to engender some goodwill among the fans and that would mean Jackson, Ewing, or JVG – all poor choices.

  171. but I fear Randle is getting the KP assignment tonight and that can’t possible work out well

    Was it David Lee who was the subject of an article written about his opponents’ tendency to try to light him up, leading to a weirdly low opponent FG% because his man would take any available midrange shot against him? That’s what we have to hope for. KP, true to form, settles for a bunch of long shots instead of bullying Randle inside.

    If it happened, I’d want the mono thing to work out for Luka as well, so maybe he contracts mono from a three-way kiss with Jennifer Lawrence and Margot Robbie. We get a lottery pick, and Luka gets to peak at age 20.

  172. Tinfoil conspiracy: Is it possible Fiz wants to be fired when Bron told him after Mills/Perry press conference that he’d install him as the coach of his hometown Lakers? That no defense lineup he used against Chicago is strong evidence.

    I don’t know about Lebron and LA but he HAD to be dumping the game trying to get fired by putting his worst 5 defenders on the floor in a winnable tie game after 3. Some of his comments after the game were just begging to be fired so he could collect the remaining years of his 5.4M/ yr without further sullying his rep…..nothing else makes any sense. It’s unpossible to be that clueless and actually trying to win…..

  173. Hey, someone had to buy that Wu Tang album….

    That was exactly the context that his name came up in.

  174. Was it David Lee who was the subject of an article written about his opponents’ tendency to try to light him up, leading to a weirdly low opponent FG% because his man would take any available midrange shot against him? That’s what we have to hope for. KP, true to form, settles for a bunch of long shots instead of bullying Randle inside.

    I think that was Steve Novak actually!

    Mentioned it yesterday but I am rooting for Fizdale to be fired soon, Mike Miller to be named interim, Knicks finish season 25-57, housecleaning from top-to-bottom this offseason. Only big issue is that unless Mills +/- Perry is fired or specifically told not to chase 1-2 extra wins, chances of actually trading Morris + Ellington + whoever is probably a lot smaller now.

  175. Meanwhile, thinking about a new possible GM – I think the chances of Masai coming are pretty small, but I would not be opposed to hiring someone from his tree up in Toronto — they have done amazingly well with player development (FVV, Siakam, etc) and have seriously had the ability to turn late picks into valuable contributors. Their VP of Operations + Player Development is someone named Teresa Resch who is apparently a rising star. Also Keith Boyarsky is their VP of Strategy and Research, which sounds pretty interesting. My guess is getting one of those would not require pick compensation since it would be a promotion for them.

  176. Bill Simmons podcast with Steve Kerr is well worth a listen. It’s not Knicks related, but it’s an interesting look at the Warriors, Bulls, and Spurs dynamics and how they were so different.

  177. @188 – I came here to post that I think Fizdale wants freedom. This isn’t what he signed up for and the Knicks are now years away from the situation he expected. He can’t quit because he would need to give up lots of money. Getting fired is what he needs, personally. It’ll end soon and it’ll be another interesting interview to find out what he really thought about this situation.

  178. the guy/gal to go after in toronto in is bobby webster… he’s the current gm and the architect of the kawhi leonard trade…

    landing ujiri himself is obviously preferable altho i have no idea what it would take draft pick wise to land him…. weltman.. who went to the magic was ujiri’s right hand guy and had a very good rep… we missed out on him but the next guy up is webster who is also highly regarded….

  179. landing ujiri himself is obviously preferable altho i have no idea what it would take draft pick wise to land him…. weltman.. who went to the magic was ujiri’s right hand guy and had a very good rep… we missed out on him but the next guy up is webster who is also highly regarded….

    It’s crazy how many people below Masai you hear about in Toronto that are “highly regarded” or a “rising star” or “one of the best in the business in their role”. That’s a huge part of a POBO or GM role that we often ignore. It’s not just making value free agent signings or nifty trades, it’s being the CEO of the basketball side of the team, which is as much a managerial/organizational oversight/strategic vision role as it is a “knowledgable basketball person” role.

    When was the last time you heard any middle tier member of the Knicks org. described in those kinds of glowing terms? Who are the second-tier guys in the Knicks org. who other teams are lining up trying to poach? *Crickets*

  180. Wiggins shooting improvement looks likely to be unsustainable (at least at his current levels). He might have actually improved into a not awful player, but he’s been in the league six years and he’s making 25 million dollars

  181. Stam, there was list posted above of many Knicks assistants who went on to do well with other teams, and that list was long and would be longer if you added in Kenny Atkinson.

  182. Imagine the Knicks having a VP of Strategy and Research. I know that NYC is a hard place to lure leadership talent to, and the Knicks are a small-market team that needs to Moneyball everything, and the ownership doesn’t like to overpay executives, but imagine it.

  183. I would love to have Brian Cashman or Theo Epstein run this ship.

    The #1 theoretically fixable problem with the Knicks is Steve Mills (I truly don’t think Dolan is a) fixable since he’s the owner, and 2) the problem at this point, outside the fact he hired Mills and for whatever reason is loyal to him). Mills would be the guy to decide there’s going to be a VP of Strategy and Research. Instead he’s signing Ron Baker to a full room exception with a player option or whatever it was.

  184. Does it make sense for Dolan to give brain trust the Isaiah Thomas treatment this season. Force Perry to fire Fiz and coach these guys himself? If the team is last in offense and shitty on defense at the end of season, Mills goes too and we start the circus all over again.

  185. My gut feeling:

    For this board’s dream of dreams (Masai hiring) to happen, Dolan* has to clean house of Fizdale, Perry and (once and for all) Mills. But he also has to clean out any other pertinent personnel holdovers who are current and past carriers of their corporate culture – the execs you don’t hear about. Any Dolan mole-men, Dolan sympathizers and Dolan ol’ boy-network hires within 4 Penn Plaza. They ALL GOTTA GO! That’s what Dolan must commit to.

    *typical disclaimer that we’re asking James Dolan to make a responsible, basketball-smart decision.

  186. Yeah, a Cashman or Theo type GM would be awesome.
    Agree that Mills should be done BEFORE anyone else goes.

    On a separate note, if Mark Jackson and Jeff Van Gundy aren’t choices to coach this team, who is? We need someone that can teach fundamental hoops to the kids and play them.

  187. Stam, there was list posted above of many Knicks assistants who went on to do well with other teams, and that list was long and would be longer if you added in Kenny Atkinson.

    I saw that but those were all coaches. I’m talking about at a basketball operations level. Currently listed on the org. chart for our basketball operations staff (director and above) we have:

    Special Assistant to the General Manager Allan Houston
    Assistant General Manager Gerald Madkins
    Basketball Advisor Clarence Gaines Jr.
    Vice President, Basketball Operations Jamie Mathews
    Vice President, Player Development & Minor League Ops Craig Robinson
    Director, Basketball Strategy Michael Arcieri
    Director, Security Todd Jackson
    Director, Sports Technology Richard Dry
    Director, Scouting and Administration Kristian Petesic
    Director, Scouting – Central Walker D. Russell
    Director, Data Analytics & Pro Scout Mike Smith
    Director of Operations, MSG Training Center Miguel Vazquez

    I’m sure a lot of them are probably perfectly capable at their jobs, but you don’t hear a lot of that “oh he’s definitely going to be tossed around for GM vacancies in the next few years” with these guys the way you do with other teams. It’s a little bit of a chicken-egg situation with the team being bad I guess.

  188. Looking at that exec list, can we chat about Allan Houston for a moment pls…

    Wasn’t he at one time supposed to be “groomed” to be our future GM?
    I mean, I enjoyed me some H20 in the late 90s-early 00s, and that shot to beat the Heat will live forever. But he is not the kind of team legacy player who deserves a cushy forever-position in the front office. He’s not an all-time great like Ewing or Clyde or Reed. Not to mention that he got overpaid on that $100mil contract, and then when the league created their first amnesty rule which was named after him because everyone just knew the Knicks were obviously going to use it on him to get from under his laborious contract, they hold onto him.

    Is he paying off that contract in virtue by working with the team forever? Nah, son.

  189. I just have to say this whole string after a nice farfa recap is a bit disappointing.

    There isn’t a coach in the league that will make this shit show play better. We know the FO is doing CYA, and the fish rots from the head.

    This all feels a bit like the court of Luis the 16th, except in this case Dolan can toss anyone from MSG that mutters ‘Fire Dolan,’ and he owns the guillotine, all the cake, bread and whatever else.
    So long as the area is full or near full, Dolan will be the boss, and this team will be a failure.
    I stopped watching the Jets for similar reasons, proving that even if you are a fan of a team for 50 years, you can walk away.

    Fans will need to walk away and hurt Dolan in his wallet. Then and then will any of this change

  190. I think there are things that a good coach could really make better.

    1) Fix the rotations. Stop playing all the bad defenders together. Stop with the jumbo Morris/Randle/Portis lineup that can’t score or defend.

    2) Stop letting dudes do things they’re not good at

    3) Conversely, get guys doing things they ARE good at — Julius Randle doesn’t even have 10 total possessions where he finished a play as the roll man. In 11 games!! If Frank has an offensive skill, it’s probably as a PNR ballhandler, yet he never gets to do that.

    4) Have some rules about what the team is allowed to do and not allowed to do. No more pullup 20 footers with 12 seconds left on the clock.

    I think this team has potential for 30-35 wins just based on talent. Fizdale is coaching them to a 20 win (or fewer!) pace.

    (let me be clear, I still think Mills and Perry need to go)

  191. I fear the only way that Dolan could “clean house” is by totally removing himself from it. I.e. sell the team.

    I wonder what mixture of cheers and boos KP will hear tonight. Or will it even be a mix at all?

  192. Not sure why he lists (1) Director of Scouting & Analytics and (2) Director of Analytics and Pro Scout as separate positions, but it does seem very Knicks-y.

    It looks like his title changed at the end of July 2017. His responsibilities might have changed too. That was right after Perry was hired in the middle of July. I don’t find it unusual at all that a new exec comes in and changed titles and responsibility. I am little surprised that our director of scouting and analytics works out of LA, but I guess he can do that job from anywhere.

  193. “KP, true to form, settles for a bunch of long shots instead of bullying Randle inside.”

    The next time KP bullies someone inside will be the first

  194. If Fiz does anything besides have Frank stick to Doncic and put Morris on KP, I think we can assume he’s ok getting fired in the morning.

    That zone we played in Chicago could yield 140 points tonight.

  195. Some of those org lists tend to be out of date. Gaines, for instance, is probably no longer a Knick employee.

  196. Firing Fiz or Mills or Perry is just rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic. James Dolan is the iceberg. As long as he’s out there, we’ll always be sinking.

  197. Firing Fiz or Mills or Perry is just rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic. James Dolan is the iceberg. As long as he’s out there, we’ll always be sinking.

    I hate to say so, but probably not, actually. The Rangers are not sinking. It is therefore possible that he can preside over a success. As well, Phil has said he had carte blanche…and unlike Donnie Walsh, Phil is pretty convincing on this account. The MMM was his idea. The Noah signing was his idea. The Rose trade was his idea.

    So I think if you get rid of Mills and brought in a strong exec, Dolan would be perfectly happy to stay out of the way.

  198. Eh, Dolan may not be overtly tinkering on a micro level at the moment, but all the reports surrounding Sunday’s strange press conference leading into the reports that Fiz is about to be fired still make it seem like a lot of the short-termism in the organization is flowing down from Dolan. He’s calling management into his office at halftime 10 games into a season where everyone with a brain knew we were going to suck demanding answers and implicitly threatening action. That’s not hands-off and it’s that kind of shit that leads to win-now moves and stupid decisions that will in all likelihood take a currently pretty decent big picture situation for the Knicks and flush it down the toilet.

    I get the Rangers counterpoint, but hockey will never be as big as basketball; the Knicks are Dolan’s prize jewel and his attention is a curse on them.

  199. Yeah, like, if you brought in a strong executive and they started doing smart moves, I think Dolan would definitely back off. It’s just that he would jump in on the first sign of trouble in the papers, which is not cool.

  200. Dolan just interferes in basketball more than hockey, most likely because even the best hockey players aren’t big enough stars for Dolan to find glory in luring. And hockey in general just isn’t as glamorous and glitzy as the NBA.

    But it’s totally true that Dolan has presided over a very successful Ranger organization that free agents love (*) and has even signed off on an explicit teardown and rebuild that is going patiently and swimmingly. It’s almost impossible to believe the Knicks and Rangers are run by the same guy. Fundamentally, his “Steve Mills” with the Rangers has been far, far more capable and has far more of a hockey personnel background than his Steve Mills with the Knicks, who really has no basketball personnel background or talent to speak of. Unlock the mystery of why that is — why Glen Sather and John Davidson are extremely accomplished personnel guys with long NHL backgrounds and why their analogue Steve Mills is the hackiest hack who ever hacked — and the answers will likely clarify greatly.

    (*) The Garden is actually far more of a mecca for guys like Artemi Panarin than it is for guys like LeBron James or Kevin Durant.

  201. So I think if you get rid of Mills and brought in a strong exec, Dolan would be perfectly happy to stay out of the way.

    You’re 50% right. Agree 100% that he would rather stay in his basement and play his guitar.

    Last 8 years or so the problem has been the hiring part. Dolan is unable to recognize a young talent before they become house hold name. Overpaying someone like Ujiri is usually a bad idea. Need a young brilliant scout/mid level executive or even a coach like Nurse, Bud, etc…who have not won much yet but their character is solid and work ethic is off the charts. Dolan’s lottery genes can’t see that needle in a hey stack. Only real recognize real. That’s where the problem lies. He knows it too so he tries to ask others for help, but you cant outsource that job requirement that all absentee owners have.

    Dolan today, spends money on salary, facilities, analytics, scouts, coaches and has no problem to paying luxury taxes. he also stays away and lets people do their thing. Just doesn’t have the eye to recognize elite talent if it was staring in front of him. For that reason only and unless he just gets lucky, (rangers) owner is the iceberg.

    Hope this helps.

  202. @220

    As I said, bring in a strong exec and I don’t think you have that happen. The implication being that someone good at their job would say, you have a few pieces here, but not enough to be good, and Fiz can’t coach, so we are going to have a lot of bad losses like this. Whereas Mills sold him a bill of goods that they could compete this year. If you’re told the team can be competitive, and then you see a halfhearted effort against a crappy team where they get their asses kicked, are you going to respond differently?

    Not excusing his general behavior; I am just saying that if he had someone like Masai, he wouldn’t be meddling.

  203. Mills has been in completely incharge since Jackson left in June of 2017. If Dolan waited until now to chew him out for worse results than promised, that’s pretty hands off. I’m not sure you can expect more from an owner.

  204. Overpaying someone like Ujiri is usually a bad idea.

    Really? It doesn’t count against the cap, and a winning organization in NYC is literally hundreds of millions of dollars more valuable. I don’t think you can overpay Ujiri. I don’t want to give up picks for him, but someone who in your own words “recognizes real” would create the kind of infrastructure that would lead to winning sooner than later, and just as during Linsanity, the share price would skyrocket.

    If there’s one person to “overpay” in the organization, it’s the person running the organization with a track record of sustained success. You absolutely do not hire “Nick Nurse” of the front office and hope for the best….especially in NYC, and especially under Dolan. Terrible idea.

    Hope this helps.

  205. Can you imagine how much money Dolan would make from having Masai running this show for two years?

    The return on that investment would probably be astronomical. Just turning this ship around is a billion dollar proposition….

  206. @220

    As I said, bring in a strong exec and I don’t think you have that happen. The implication being that someone good at their job would say, you have a few pieces here, but not enough to be good, and Fiz can’t coach, so we are going to have a lot of bad losses like this. Whereas Mills sold him a bill of goods that they could compete this year. If you’re told the team can be competitive, and then you see a halfhearted effort against a crappy team where they get their asses kicked, are you going to respond differently?

    Not excusing his general behavior; I am just saying that if he had someone like Masai, he wouldn’t be meddling.

    I guess it’s possible that the short-term pressure is completely self-inflicted by Mills, both by telling Dolan this team was going to be good and, relatedly, telling Dolan that they were going to get Durant/Kyrie (we assume) which was the beginning of shifting expectations on how soon this team was going to be on the upswing. But given that the organization has spent the last twenty years chasing short-term solutions under Dolan I guess I don’t find it that convincing.

    After a couple years I suspect any GM is going to be feeling pressure to show results on the court – and I don’t mean results like “look at all the assets and promising young players I’ve accumulated!” but results like wins and losses or Dolan is going to lose patience quickly.

  207. It is why it is so galling that when he hired Phil, Phil could literally have done anything with the team and there finally was a chance for this team to go through a real rebuild and Phil thought, “Hmmm….nah.”

    It’s stunning that we’re actually accidentally getting a real rebuild here via Mills and Perry putting together such a shitty team that they’ll likely be adding another foundational piece to play alongside Barrett and Mitch (although, it would be nice if they gave off some indication that they realize that Mitch is, indeed, a foundational piece).

  208. Well look at that. We have an analytics director? Hilarious.

    I mean, his name is “Mike Smith”. I’m betting he doesn’t really exist, and neither does his position.

  209. “I could get two first round picks for Melo (both of which turned out to be used on useful NBA players, but there’s no certainty that the Knicks would have drafted the same guys), but I would have to take on Carlos Boozer for a year? Nah, better to just suck for three more years than to have Boozer on the books for a year! Because we are not rebuilding!”

  210. @229 – With it being OBVIOUS that the Knicks can’t draw any free agents of real value, the draft is key. I’m already sick about it, knowing that the Warriors will pick one spot ahead of us and will draft the next generational player.

  211. knicks trivia. we are currently shooting 36% on drives. this is last in the league by a mile and if it lasted all year would i think be the worst since data has been available. (we are also worst in the league in to% in drives.). so:

    name the only knick currently shooting above league average on drives. minimum 7 attempts.

  212. name the only knick currently shooting above league average on drives. minimum 7 attempts.

    Frank Ntilikina! Haha.

    No, I think it’s Randle.

  213. Overpaying someone like Ujiri is usually a bad idea. Need a young brilliant scout/mid level executive or even a coach like Nurse, Bud, etc…who have not won much yet but their character is solid and work ethic is off the charts.

    uh what

    If you think that Nurse wins that title (in what, his first year?) without Kawhi, you are crazy.

  214. name the only knick currently shooting above league average on drives. minimum 7 attempts.

    It has to be Knox.

    I’d trade the Mavericks first rounder maybe….

    I have stumped for Ujiri for years and I don’t really see the problem with the idea. I don’t know, maybe he has an amazing team behind him that he might not be able to bring with him? I definitely believe that giving one guy or gal in any enterprisee can be a mistake.

    But at least we’d be starting with a guy who has a track record of success. Just like level 1 stuff.

  215. @234 If it’s just FG% it has to be Trier. If it was PPP I’m not sure because he’s turned it over a lot. Knox has drawn a bunch of fouls on drives but I don’t think he’s converted all that many.

  216. It has to be someone weird. Knox is probably the best guess… depends on how you count fouls since he always gets bailed out.

  217. okay truncated trivia window to avoid being boxed out by the game thread. it’s fucking portis! he is apparently 8-15 on the year. i set the minimum at 7, intentionally just above trier, but he is also 4-6.

    randle is at 44pct, only modestly below league average. but he has 4 assists and 15 turnovers on drives, which is…something. RJ has the most credited drives by a mile (141), but i was surprised to see he’s only 23/69 = 33pct. elfrid, knox and frank are 7-35 combined. keep in mind it’s never 100pct clear what gets counted as a drive and what’s doesn’t.

  218. Could not agree with you more…. he is a special talent…. but I fear Randle is getting the KP assignment tonight and that can’t possible work out well.

    In fairness, Randle has had some good games against KP in the past. Hoping today is his light switch game and he turns it on.

  219. Phil didn’t do a true rebuild because of his own hubris. He thought he could turn Melo into Triangle Melo and thus one of the best players in the game, and he thought Jose Calderon was the perfect triangle point guard and that everything was just going to triangle itself into shape. Triangle triangle triangle triangle triangle.

    Seriously, he WAY overestimated the power of his system. He didn’t think we needed a rebuild, he figured he could bring in some triangle-y guys and the rest would take care of itself.

    How’s it goink?

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