530 thoughts to “NBA Draft Night Thread – 2021”

  1. I will be happy.. and very surprised… as long as we don’t draft any CAA clients… or anyone from Kentucky…

    for posterity.. Final Board:

    1. Jalen Suggs
    2. Evan Mobley
    3. Jalen Green
    4. Cade Cunningham
    5. Alperen Sengun
    6. James Bouknight
    7. Josh Christopher
    8. Jalen Johnson
    9. Scottie Barnes
    10. Jonathan Kuminga
    11. Keon Johnson
    12. Moses Moody
    13. Charles Bassey
    14. Josh Giddey
    15. Ayo Dosunmu
    16. Tre Mann
    17. Jaden Springer
    18. Franz Wagner
    19. Nah’Shon Hyland
    20. Chris Duarte
    21. Jared Butler
    22. Sharife Cooper
    24. Isaiah Jackson
    25. Neemias Queta
    26. Aaron Henry
    27. Greg Brown
    28. Josh Primo
    29. Joel Ayayi
    30. Jason Preston

  2. I will be happy as long as my wife doesn’t make me watch gymnastics which I already know the outcome of. And as long as Leon doesn’t do anything dumb.

  3. Still forlornly hoping that one of the two Vols will fall to the Knicks…and the Knicks don’t pass.

  4. Jalen Green took Tilman’s private plane to NY so I think we know the Rockets pick

  5. I vote for Springer just based on age/numbers but I don’t see the Knicks taking him. There should be some interesting surprises in store.

  6. Is it fair to say that Sharife Cooper is a hive mind pick? we all seem to like him.

  7. Perki is not wrong, Jalen is looking amazing tonight. That suit is dope and I could never wear it that well.

  8. Hubert:
    Is it fair to say that Sharife Cooper is a hive mind pick? we all seem to like him.

    I don’t like him.

  9. draft broke well for Cleveland. I guess Cade has more upside but I think Mobley probably has a higher chance of being a really good NBA player

  10. My comment about Cooper is stuck in moderation. Hubert, I am not in favor of him.

  11. Westbrook trade official. Like it for the Wizards

    I think if I am the Wizards I would have liked some more 1sts for Westbrook IMO. Not super high on Kuzma but solid players coming back. This feels like a steal for the Lakers but my god is spacing going to be terrible on the team.

  12. I’m not sure of the exact deal but it’s got to be food for Washington not to have Westbrook and his contract

  13. Hive mind has not coalesced this year around anyone. Although it may decide that it had three months in to the NBA season when the player picked 20 turns out to be a superstar.

    I like Mobley a lot and I also think he will be better than Cade.I love what I have read about his makeup. I like his handle.

    But looking at how slight he is I do have some hesitations. I worry his physique won’t fill out and will hold him back.

    Ooh, Scottie Barnes….

  14. Toronto loves long wings who can’t shoot. I guess I like this pick more for them than I would for most franchises, but Suggs was a much much better basketball player.

  15. OK, so I see a dozen players as realistic candidates for 19 & 21.

    Tier 1 (7) “Lottery Locks”
    Cade, Green, Mobley, Suggs, Barnes, Moody, Bouknight

    Tier 2 (8) “Love ’em to drop to 19 – but they won’t”
    Giddey, Keon, Sengun, Wagner, Davion, Kispert, Duarte, Kai Jones

    Tier 3 (3) “Pass at 19 but might take at 21”
    Kuminga, Ziaire, Jalen Johnson

    Tier 4 (12) “The Dirty Dozen”
    Guards: Jared Butler, Tre Mann, Jaden Springer, Sharife Cooper, Deuce McBride, Bones Hyland
    Wings: Cam Thomas, Trey Murphy, Quentin Grimes, Ayo Dosunmu
    Bigs: Usman Garuba, Isaiah Jackson

    For those curious about the Hawks at #20, mock drafts have them all over the place. Cam Thomas appears to be the most popular pick there, if he’s available. Butler, Keon, Ziaire, Jalen Johnson & Isaiah Jackson also got picked in more than one mock draft by Atlanta.

    I’d approach Utah with a 32 for 30 Augustin trade if they’re really in cap-cutting mode.

    Ultimately I would love for one (or two!) of Kispert/Cam/Duarte to drop to us. Expect a run on the guards in the twenties so hold out hope that we can somehow get one of the six guys listed above at 32. Could maybe be talked into Preston if none of the others are available at 32.

    Y’all like Vrenz Bleijinbergh at 58?

  16. So the Lakers, a team that employs LeBron James, traded Kuzma, KCP, Harrell, and their 1st this year for a player that needs the ball in his hands to be effective and refuses to move without the ball. Oh, and he can’t shoot. And Toronto drafted Scottie Barnes? What the hell is going on tonight.

  17. Someone convince me that Russ and LeBron are a perfect pairing.

    They probably could have had Hield for less.

  18. Just please don’t do anything terrible Leon.

    I promise I won’t. (Leon’s my name LOL)

  19. Milwaukee just got 3 second round picks for the 31st. Two years Indiana got 3 second round picks for the 32. Leon Rose got one future pick for the 33.

  20. suggs.. fultz.. carter jr.. bamba… hampton.. isaac…

    and they got another pick coming up… man i’m jealous…

  21. I think Suggs is the best player in the draft and am shocked TO passed on him at 4.

  22. Toronto passes on Lowry’s natural heir,
    are they preparing a sign and trade with Lowry to get Simmons?

  23. djphan:
    suggs.. fultz.. carter jr.. bamba… hampton.. isaac…

    and they got another pick coming up… man i’m jealous…

    Of Orlando? Is this sarcasm? They suck and most of that collection of players sucks.

  24. I think it’s a rare misstep from Masai. Not necessarily for picking Barnes, but they could’ve extracted something from Orlando to swap spots. Like that’s gotta be worth at least a lotto protected first, right?

  25. djphan:
    suggs.. fultz.. carter jr.. bamba… hampton.. isaac…

    and they got another pick coming up… man i’m jealous…

    I agree. Orlando is doing great with their decision to rebuild.

  26. Well, Hive Mind has an opinion on Suggs to bookmark.

    Whoa, Giddey? Did not realize he would go this high.

  27. Of Orlando? Is this sarcasm? They suck and most of that collection of players sucks.

    well just because you have sucked doesn’t mean you will suck…. and i expect a bunch of those guys to improve.. and some of them pretty significantly…

  28. This seems like a good pick by OKC, I’d much rather have this kid than like Kuminga or Bouknight

  29. Having seen the footage of the way Giddey’s father looked in his NBL glory days, I now understand the pick. Major Danny Mcbride meets Will Farrell in Semi-Pro energy. Love it.

  30. Thanks, Owen! I was able to find some internet in time for the draft start, but Owen beat me to it and I appreciate it, since he didn’t know I would be ready. Thanks, again!

  31. I am still shocked by Toronto passing on Suggs. But..I will say I love Giddey in OKC and I wish 2 & 3 swapped places. I so wanted to see Cleveland land a pure perimeter scorer whose game meshes well with Garland and I wanted to see Houston resurrect the twin towers with Mobley and Wood becoming a modern version. Shit woulda been dope.

    Can or should we poach a guard from Orlando now? I’m thinking absorbing Fultz and seeing what he can do once he’s healthy

  32. i have no idea how kuminga is going to turn out but going to golden state is very good news for him…

  33. lol remember when the Warriors said they were light years ahead of the rest of the league

  34. So stoked for my fellow countryman Giddey cracking the top 10. I grew up watching his Dad play so it’s surreal seeing the player he is turning into. Kid plays up to the level of his competition, so great get for OKC to pair with SGA if they keep him.

  35. Congrats man! ;)

    Yes it is a special day for the Giddey’s and therefore all of Australia ha ha ha

  36. A poll: when they show the Knicks room, will WWW have the shirt on or off? :D

  37. Woohoo!! They saved us from Mitchell. Phew. No trade-ups unless it’s for Sengun or Bouknight.

  38. I have to say, Off Night is an 80 grade nickname. And the story about going to watch Jrue is cool.

    Kuminga’s backstory is crazy. Hasn’t seen his parents in five years. Nuts.

  39. Ziaire at 10…. Hope that wasn’t a trade-up with us! Some good ones may be available at 19.

  40. Teams are walking into the landmines for us!!

    Think this makes some sense for Grizz actually, they have a bunch of strong role players locked up. Still wouldn’t have made it but they need some high upside

  41. This draft is crazy fun…

    It will be great to play “Re-Draft 2021” in two years…

  42. ziaire makes some sense if he showed up in workouts looking like a different player. Like if he was hurt this year, couldn’t workout etc maybe he’s worth drafting in the first round, but trading up like Memphis did for a guy who legitimately sucked in the Pac-12 is fucking weird

  43. ???????????

    Steve Popper
    @StevePopper
    Just got a call from someone connected in the league who said, “Knicks should be going crazy right now to get up to draft Bouknight.” I think he’s right. Lot of talent to be hanging there at No. 11 still.

  44. James Bouknight would be a great get at this point…. and probably worth it…

    edit: and the dream is dead…

    charlotte building something interesting too…

  45. Franz Wagner at 8??

    Davion at 9 and Ziaire at 10… the KB targets are flying off the shelves

  46. My dream right now is Sengun falling to us. Or that is a trade-up that is worth it. But Moody falling would be pretty great as well.

    I am really rooting for Duarte, Kispert, Murphy, Jackson, Jones, and Garuba being the next six picks. At that point, it would be smooth sailing.

  47. Tommy Beer
    @TommyBeer
    The Hornets now have Bouknight, LaMelo Ball, Terry Rozier and Gordon Hayward on their roster…

    Can help but think Bouknight falling to the Hornets makes it a lot more likely that Charlotte decides NOT to match a decent offer for Devonte’ Graham??….

  48. Pick 31 trade maybe because of Garuba’s buyout???

    Would let them offer a big enough contract to pay the buyout and would have the first swing at that structure

  49. Looks like I haven’t been paying attention outside of tier 1 guys and the Knicks’ potential targets, lol

  50. Sengen would be the most Spurs move. Because of course it works out that way

  51. I think the Bucks have number 31. If they get Garuba?that is great for them.

  52. oh man we are getting some serious wing depth now! Burks and Bullock can go pound sand LOL

  53. We are stumbling through a minefield but other people are just jumping on them before we can. Someone very good is going to drop, and now I just hope it’s not a repeat of watching Porter Jr. drop, getting excited, and then watching us reach for the biggest landmine in that draft.

  54. This is the first draft I’ve seen that was predicted to be all over the place and then really was all over the place.

  55. this is going to be one of those drafts where someone we all love falls to us, and we take someone we all hate, isn’t it?

  56. Sengun
    Moody
    K Johnson
    J Johnson

    Any of them would be great in that order.

    Come on Kispert and Murphy just need to get taken and we are assured a lottery talent dropping to us.

  57. ess-dog:
    This is why you don’t trade up.

    lmao

    Tell that to the Mavericks. :-)

    You don’t have to decide until you see how it is developing and you think you are in danger of losing the player(s) you are interested in.

  58. The Hive may be out of touch but the professionals Draftnicks are too…

    Primo is a huge reach,
    if we did it, this blog would have exploded…

    :-)

  59. I would be fine with Duarte/Keon/Sharife at #19. There’s no way Sengun and Moody will still be there.

  60. This is nuts but I feel like there is an opportunity for the Knicks to make some hay here.

    As they say in Ted Lasso, it’s the hope that kills you.

    Btw, Geo, if you are out there, you give me some Ted Lasso vibes.

    And everyone else, get an Apple Tv teaser sub and watch that show once Season 2 has wrapped. It’s great.

  61. Good to see another Dominican in the league. Horford, KAT, Duarte, anyone else?

  62. … in this draft

    Deeefense: lmao

    Tell that to the Mavericks.:-)

    You realize you don’t have to decide until you see how it is developing and you think you are in danger of losing the player(s) you are interested in.

  63. I would have been happy with Moody but no way everyone I liked was going to last until 19

  64. The primo pick is a huge headscratcher… they really could have taken a knicks trade down and probably taken primo….

    spurs aren’t perfect… they still trying to make lonnie walker work… primo can work out tho.. he’s young and can fill it up…

  65. can someone just take Usman Garuba and Brandon Boston also so we can clear the way for Leon Rose to not mess these picks up….

  66. Not gonna lie, I wouldn’t have minded taking Kispert with one if our picks.

    Is Sengun gonna fall to us and do we take him if he does? Is he a legit Euro prospect or is this Maciej Lampe 2.0?

  67. Jalen Johnson and Sengun are two guys I wasn’t expecting to be available at 19 who might be.

  68. Hubert:
    this is going to be one of those drafts where someone we all love falls to us, and we take someone we all hate, isn’t it?

    I’m certain of it.

  69. Please, please, please take Jalen Johnson if he falls.

    We won’t, but I can try to speak it into existence!

  70. After the nice Warriors draft, how about Randle for Moody and Kuminga plus Wiggins for salary filler? Who says no?

  71. this might be a bit premature… but jalen johnson falling does not seem like a good thing. about him. he didn’t play many games… he went out flaking on coach k…

    talent is talent.. and he’s talented.. but where do you play him? i’m not sure about him…

  72. I’d take Jalen Johnson or Sengun, they both have some risks but we’re picking 19th

  73. If not Johnson, Sengun! If not Sengun, Springer!

    There should be a bunch of great options so I’m sure we’ll wind up with BJ Boston.

  74. I cry so much easier as I get older. Teared right up over Terrence’s family right there.

  75. Go Big Orange!

    I had to spend several minutes convincing my wife that an NBA team did not just draft a dead player. I wish I were making this up.

  76. so we’re almost at the Jalen and Keon Johnson choice.. fwiw Keon is a CAA client so i think we’re picking him if he’s there…

    i’m actually ok with that…

  77. What is OKC doing? What use do they have in more picks? Sengun is exactly the type of player they should have leaped on.

  78. kevin5318:
    Shams saying Rockets giving up two future firsts for Sengun

    So which team is making that trade with Houston? It sounds like a good deal for Houston

  79. Houston is remaking their team in one draft. Sengun should fit well with Wood. Wood, Green, and Sengun plus two more players later in this round.

  80. Knick fan not in NJ: So which team is making that trade with Houston?It sounds like a good deal for Houston

    OKC of course. Their end goal is to have every single pick in a draft.

  81. I just took a bathroom break. Did we select our bench riding role players yet?

  82. I wouldn’t take Sharife here. He could possibly drop to 32. Plus there are plenty of point guards out there.

  83. If you don’t think Cooper will fall to the 2nd round you kind of have to go him with 19 or 21. I think we might be going either Keon or Jalen Johnson at 19.

  84. Either Johnson is a good pick. Both are high upside swings but good upside/risk for this part of the draft.

    I’m still reeling from the Sengun trade. He is a top 5 talent in this draft and would fit perfectly in the timeline with Suggs and OKC kicks the can. I would be worried if I was Suggs, he is facing a future with a team that is still not looking to add talent. How much longer are they going to wait before trying to improve.

  85. Good move by NY.

    I knew these guys weren’t foolish enough to select 3-4 role players tonight. Keep the asset and try to use it more productively later in free agency sign and trades and regular trades or next year.

  86. Please tell me it’s for more than a single future first. Two years in a row of trading out and not getting anything extra for it. Dummy stuff. THEY NEED PLAYERS!

  87. What the fuck is with us trading current picks for a single future pick?! Only saving grace is that it’s a Charlotte pick and they always suck. Though who knows what kind of protections are on it.

  88. I know everyone has draft blueballs but this isn’t a terrible move if there wasn’t anyone we were crazy for at #19.

  89. let’s just say… next year’s draft is no where near as good as this one… and if this pick is two years out… i just can’t….

  90. Knicks finding new ways to disappoint.

    I don’t know, maybe this is a smart move, but doesn’t feel right.

  91. Awful. This is so bad. We are acting like we are too good for rookies. I do not understand.

  92. Source confirms Knicks moved No. 19 to Charlotte for a future pick. Knicks checked in on teams near Indiana at No. 13 today with Chris Duarte in mind. They also liked Corey Kispert, Trey Murphy III & Tre Mann. All were off board by 19th pick. ESPN 1st reported NYK had traded pick

    what is this stupid shit? We only like 4 guys in the whole fucking draft?

  93. I advocated for this a couple threads ago. If what you want is to eventually trade for a star this makes a lot of sense. The average draft pick has new car syndrome where the value goes down a lot as soon as it becomes a specific player – every team wants to pick their own guy. This is a valuable asset in a trade, a random young player who say the Wizards may not like at all, maybe less so.

  94. This is why I didn’t focus on this draft. It had too many directions it could take. I wonder what 1st rounder we got back? Next season’s? Further down? I hope it’s not protected!

  95. Barrettcuda:
    I know everyone has draft blueballs but this isn’t a terrible move if there wasn’t anyone we were crazy for at #19.

    It’s 100% the correct move if you know you have to add all star caliber talent and will need assets to get the job done. They weren’t going to get a player like that at 19 and even if by some miracle they did, they’d have to wait years for his development. We are big game hunting. Besides, there was no way they were going to keep 3-4 rookies on the roster.

  96. They’re probably hoping to trade a bunch of 1RPs for a star. Keep the powder dry, fill the roster out with a bunch of Taj Gibsons and Elfrid Paytons.

    Whoo hoo.

  97. Other than Isiah Quickley, this front office seems to suck the proverbial elephant dicks when it comes to the draft

  98. So, Jaylen Johnson is now pretty much guaranteed to become a star player, right?
    :-)

  99. Site crashing.
    Database errors.

    I hope the future Charlotte #1 isn’t protected.

  100. Fucking Christ. Fucking hell.

    I mean, my nerd mind wants to be ok with this but my lizard brain is on fucking fire.

  101. JK47:
    They’re probably hoping to trade a bunch of 1RPs for a star. Keep the powder dry, fill the roster out with a bunch of Taj Gibsons and Elfrid Paytons.

    Whoo hoo.

    They are going to make a move to get better. There may be a couple of mercenaries, but there will be trade, sign and trade, and free agency opportunities that will yield better players than we would have gotten at #19 (unless of course someone they really loved dropped or they could have traded up for someone they loved).

  102. Fuck this team.

    This is fucking idiotic.

    Hope y’all enjoyed the one playoff game win because that was probably the peak.

  103. @ShamsCharania
    Knicks traded No. 21 — Keon Johnson — to the Clippers, and New York now has No. 25, sources say.

  104. we are definitely going to do something really really really stupid in free agency….. 8 roster spots… geniuses…

  105. Welp, that was a lot of time we can’t get back.

    Thanks, KB draftnicks, I know a lot more about other teams players now thanks to y’all.

  106. So trading the 19th pick is a bet that the Hornets will do worse than the Knicks did this season, right? Knicks tied with the Hawks for the 11th-best record in the league. My napkin math, based on this season’s winning percentages, that’s a 56% winning percentage or lower, so 45-46 games. At first glance, this looks like a reasonable roll of the dice for me.

  107. oh. y’all weren’t joking about the Detroit thing.

    i guess Vrenz Bleijenbergh at 58 is gonna be our token rookie this year? Poor Taj is gonna have to seriously up his offseason conditioning regimen LOL

  108. The Detroit part of the deal? It’s actually a Detroit second-round in 2024 that the Clippers own that’ll come back to New York. So that’s the deal. Per Woj

  109. They have someone in mind that will be available at #25 and picked up a 2nd rounder.

  110. knickerblogger is annoyingly glitchy for me tonight

    the pick protections in that charlotte trade are really bad. so bad.

  111. Doug Chu:
    So trading the 19th pick is a bet that the Hornets will do worse than the Knicks did this season, right? Knicks tied with the Hawks for the 11th-best record in the league. My napkin math, based on this season’s winning percentages, that’s a 56% winning percentage or lower, so 45-46 games. At first glance, this looks like a reasonable roll of the dice for me.

    If things go as planned, they are going to trade that pick as part of a package eventually…maybe sooner rather than later.

  112. The Charlotte pick is top-18 protected next year
    Top-16 protected in 2023
    Top-14 protected in 2024.

    We got this year 25 (Clippers) and Det 2024 second rounder for 21.

  113. Doug Chu:
    So trading the 19th pick is a bet that the Hornets will do worse than the Knicks did this season, right? Knicks tied with the Hawks for the 11th-best record in the league. My napkin math, based on this season’s winning percentages, that’s a 56% winning percentage or lower, so 45-46 games. At first glance, this looks like a reasonable roll of the dice for me.

    Charlotte was good last year until they had a bunch of injuries.

  114. Keep in mind, these moves also keep an extra couple of million of cap space open.

  115. Okay I like the first trade a lot less now that we see the protections. No upside to it at all.

  116. The Charlotte pick is too-18 protected next year
    Top-16 protected in 2023
    Top-14 protected in 2024.

    we literally incinerated a draft pick…. o.. m.. g…

  117. Max:
    The Charlotte pick is too-18 protected next year
    Top-16 protected in 2023
    Top-14 protected in 2024.

    We got this year 25 (Clippers) and Det 2024 second rounder for 21.

    OK with that level of protection, that pick is trade fodder for sure. Has to be

  118. Trading the 19th pick for a top 18 protected pick the next year is one of the stupidest trades in NBA history. I’m having trouble wrapping my head around this one

  119. ptmilo:
    knickerblogger is annoyingly glitchy for me tonight

    the pick protections in that charlotte trade are really bad. so bad.

    Agreed 100%.

  120. The 21st pick wasn’t enough to move up five first round spots and yet they just traded down four first round spots for a 2 three years from now.

  121. If they can get their top guy a little later on and eke some more value out of a pick it’s not super terrible trading 19 and 21. Cap space handy too. Gotta think it’s Cooper at 25 maybe?

  122. Tommy Beer says we saved 2 million in cap space this year with the trades

    The site is angry too with how differently the FO views our place on the win curve

  123. Trading back to 25 was smart even if the added value was minimal.

    I’ve said repeatedly I don’t love the players available at 19 & 21, but I would’ve taken Jalen Johnson. Of course there’s some other issues with J. Johnson. I’m fine with this move.

  124. these guys are really stupid. They don’t understand the concept of time value.

    OKC got *two* future firsts for the 16. That’s how you do it.

  125. Max:
    The Charlotte pick is too-18 protected next year
    Top-16 protected in 2023
    Top-14 protected in 2024.

    We got this year 25 (Clippers) and Det 2024 second rounder for 21.

    OMG it’s top 14 protected in 2025 too then turns into two 2nds. Fire Rose.

  126. HaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHa

  127. Top 18 protected is vintage LOL Knicks. These guys don’t have a clue. Dumping the 33 last year was the canary in the coal mine.

  128. It’s a good thing I’m not the troll who spent the last year calling everyone who criticized Leon Rose an idiot.

  129. The cap space is the reason. They also like a player they think they can get players at 25 and 32 that will love playing on the 2nd team.

    They are targeting Grimes

  130. we now see why Scott Perry was re-signed…..to take all the heat for this lazy ass draft and get fired after the end of the year.

  131. @wojespn
    The Knicks are on the board at No. 25 and they’re targeting Quentin Grimes, per sources.

  132. Free agency is going to be an interesting test for the Leon Rose. They are betting they can improve the team more this year and over the next several years via trade and free agency than by selecting the kids that were available to them.

  133. Getting a 2nd round pick 3 years from now to move 4 spots down is not great but it’s not a big change in value, but trading the 19th pick to maybe move up 3 spots 2 years from now is just insane.

  134. How on Earth do you not get ANY surplus value for a first round pick?? You don’t get anything extra back in return, just potentially the exact same thing a few years later?? Infuriating. What are they doing?

  135. Dumping the 33 last year was the canary in the coal mine.

    but but but it’s the double draft

  136. wow, our front office went from barely being able to count all the digits on one hand to playing like 12D chess, if that’s even a thing…

    ya’ll are funny, emotional high strung anyone?

    we’re still a ways away from the beginning of the season…

    all we really got to do is find a starting point guard, anything else is gravy…it’ll be fine, I promise :)

  137. Year after year, the same incompetent front office moves. Isiah Thomas, Phil Jackson and now Leon Rose. Really it all starts with the incompetent ownership. Truly is torture rooting for this team.

  138. Betting on free-agency when there’s no all-star free-agents available is Knicksy or what?

  139. I agree, the deal for the 19th pick is bad. I don’t know why we did it. The deal of 21 for 25 and a future second is ok. Everything is so topsy turvy this draft there will probably be somebody as ok at 25 as at 21.

    And this is completely counter to the Knickerblogger give mind, which mostly said keep the picks and look for upside.

  140. Trading down in the draft if you don’t like the board and can get your guy later is fine.

    But not getting really anything extra for trading down sticks in my craw. Why leave money on the table? That’s vintage Knicks.

  141. Those can’t be the pick protections. They just can’t be. We traded the #19 now for a pick that literally cannot be higher than 19 next year??? How do they agree to that???

  142. The trade of the 19 is literally one of the dumbest fucking things I’ve ever heard of. It would have made some sense if the CHA pick was unprotected.

  143. Other than the Quickley pick. Rose has shown zero aptitude for evaluating talent and managing the draft competently. Just look at the Toppin pick and trading back with the second pick last year and pretty much not getting anything. Disaster of a front office.

  144. Is the value in moving down to take Grimes getting him on a guaranteed 4 year deal instead of the shorter 2nd round deal? Seems like a perfectly cromulent pick.

  145. Grimes is a reasonable pick but that trade of 19 is so weirdly stupid I don’t really know how to react.

  146. Grimes looks like an interesting 3&D prospect, I’m just pissed off he’s not from Kentucky. :-)

  147. Trading down in this draft was never going to get you much. Knicks likely got what they could.

    I like Grimes.

  148. Don’t know a lot about Grimes, but looking over his scout, he seems like a pretty typical Thibs guy.

  149. There’s gotta be some hookers and blow in the somewhere with that #19 trade.

  150. They lucked into Quickley. William Wesley having that kind of voice in the draft room is flat-out clownshoes.

  151. Grimes is a very Quickley ish player. Again, he’s not a bad pick at this point but I really don’t think the FO knows what they’re doing.

  152. None of the NBA teams like the draft where we were picking… its flat because they’re largely 2nd rd talents in other drafts.

    Clearly no team wanted pick 19.

  153. DRed:
    Grimes is a reasonable pick but that trade of 19 is so weirdly stupid I don’t really know how to react.

    Is it possible that nobody wanted it? I’m grasping at straws lol

  154. “I agree, the deal for the 19th pick is bad.”

    It’s not just bad, it’s unbelievable. Rose makes $8M a year, and he doesn’t understand the basics of draft value? How….. What is the purpose of the trade???? We were willing to give up 19 and 21 to move up a few spots, but we delay a year (and potentially lose spots) for….. nothing?

  155. I’m with most of you guys. I like Grimes. Trade back from 21 is okay, if not great. The value in trading the 19 (in a deep draft) is awful. It’s got a fair chance to not vest for a few years. If there’s a fair chance it ends up becoming two 2nd round picks….wow.

  156. I don’t like what they did with the #19 pick, KB seems pretty unanimous on that one. The #21 pick move was fine since they got the player they wanted plus what might be a decent 2nd.

  157. abk:
    “I agree, the deal for the 19th pick is bad.”

    It’s not just bad, it’s unbelievable. Rose makes $8M a year, and he doesn’t understand the basics of draft value? How….. What is the purpose of the trade???? We were willing to give up 19 and 21 to move up a few spots, but we delay a year (and potentially lose spots) for….. nothing?

    Agree completely. Rose has little grasp of how to extract value from picks. OKC received two number ones just a few spots up from us and we essentially gave our pick away with no certainty when we will eventually cash in on it. Moronic!

  158. Anonymous scouts on Grimes:

    Quentin Grimes, 6-5 junior guard, Houston. “He was the best player at the combine. He showed a little more off the dribble than people thought he had. Had an awesome year at Houston. He’s not the best athlete, he’s not the best ballhandler, but he can make shots. I could see him going late first round. He’s been very well-coached. At the end of the day I’m not sure he does anything special enough. He has a definitive NBA skill, and that’s shooting. He has a good level of mental toughness. He’s not a great defender, but he’s not a liability.”

    He seems to be able to shoot at least, which we need and is a reasonable get at number 25. And he’s not small physically. Of course “the best player at the combine” is a little reminiscent of being great at three on three.

  159. The Leon Rose administration seriously approaches the draft with a different set of rules than everyone else, lol

  160. The best outcome with the Charlotte pick is that the Hornets are in the lottery next year and make the playoffs in 2023 so it will convey as a #17-20 in that draft. But it was a stupid, stupid move. Maybe it’s filler in a package for a bigger trade?

  161. But who wants picks with this level of protection? Did the AD, Harden or Holiday deals had picks with protections?

  162. It’s gotta be for a future trade. It’s the only thing that makes any sense.

  163. I’m hoping some sports writer got the pick protections wrong. That’s happened before. Otherwise it makes little sense.

  164. With LaMelo I’m not sure CHA is going to be a lotto team for long, but it’s still a stupid amount of protection

  165. if you want to trade for a star… and you need picks.. i get it… but you can also trade players also! the lakers traded kuzma who was a late first in the trade for westbrook… these are cheap roster spots being burned…

    which means we are going to be spending a whole lot of stupid money in free agency…

  166. This is what happens when you do not hire solid talent evaluators at the top of the organization. Instead you keep hiring guys who have relationships with agents and players, thinking you will eventually strike gold in free agency. I’ve definitely seen this movie before and it doesn’t end well.

  167. The Charlotte trade is one of the most exquisitely stupid trades I have ever seen. It’s a trade that demonstrates these guys simply do not understand how to valuate draft picks. They don’t know what they’re doing.

    The Detroit trade is ALMOST as bad. You move down four spots and you get an essentially worthless “asset” in return. You’re better off just drafting the fucking guy you want at 21.

    This is like Jon Gruden level of not understanding the draft, and the mindset is actually very similar. Gruden falls in love with certain players, and will make insane reaches for them way too early. This is similar: Rose falls in love with certain players, and when the two or three guys he likes aren’t on the board, he punts the picks, basically just gives away draft capital and gets nothing in return.

    There’s no way a front office like this is going to succeed in the long run, they’re fighting with one hand tied behind their back because they simply don’t understand the draft. The scales have fallen from my eyes, I now see that last year was a fluke and we’re going to crash hard. Never hire an agent to be your GM. Brodie Van Wagenen and now this fucking asshole.

    Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

  168. It’s not just bad, it’s unbelievable. Rose makes $8M a year, and he doesn’t understand the basics of draft value? How….. What is the purpose of the trade???? We were willing to give up 19 and 21 to move up a few spots, but we delay a year (and potentially lose spots) for….. nothing?

    IMO, the idea of the trade was obviously correct.

    If you know you need all star caliber talent and there’s no one available at #19 you think has any chance to become that player, why waste a roster spot and cap space on some potential role player that’s going to take years to develop. You are way better off holding onto that asset for a future trade or even draft that might net you a player you actually need and want and possibly even an all star in a bigger package.

    Now if the details on the protection are accurate that raises legitimate questions about whether they got appropriate fair value. But one thing to consider is that next year’s draft is supposed to be a monster. So teams may be valuing next year’s picks more highly than even this year’s. So even if you pick around the same spot but one year later, the expectation would be that an even better player will be available by waiting the extra year. That’s one thing that might have impacted the values.

  169. quentin grimes is not a 1st rd talent…. yes he’s solid on D…. yes he shoots 3s… but that’s basically it…. there’s also a lot in his profile that may signal that he’s not as good of a shooter as he’s showed and that he was a junior who all of a sudden shot well for 30 some odd games…

    all these guys picked in the 20s… are probably going to be rotation level guys… maybe even key rotation pieces… maybe with the exception of cam thomas… and grimes doesn’t quite measure up to that quality…

    doesn’t mean he can’t get there.. but from a risk perspective… it’s a bad one to take with pick 25….

  170. I’m going to hang around until number 32. I’m hoping for Garuba, but I suspect he’s going to the Bucks. His buyout terms terms pretty much force him to the second round so 31 is the first place you would pick him and Milwaukee just traded four second round picks for number 31.

  171. Last year’s draft, the Knicks did some similarly complex wheeling and dealing and got an extra late 1st out of thin air, one red paperclip-style. So it’s not like they’re dumb and don’t know how to make good draft night trades.

    If they got a very underwhelming return for #19, there must be something that they value more than future draft value. I just don’t know what it is. Is it cap space in preparation for free agency? Is it still a good trade asset with that level of protection on it?

    Also, if Charlotte’s pick next season is inside the top 18, does it carry over to the season after and become top-16 protected?

  172. I’m hoping some sports writer got the pick protections wrong. That’s happened before. Otherwise it makes little sense.

    The “sports writer” was former Nets executive Bobby Marks, who specializes in wonky details like this. I seriously doubt he got it wrong.

    The Detroit/Grimes deal is fine. Whatever. He seems like a decent enough prospect in this range. The Charlotte trade is just exasperating. It feels kind of like the Ron Baker contract, in that the move by itself isn’t that damaging, but it betrays a really bad process on the part of management.

    So much for Brock Aller, assets management wizard…

  173. I think Olshey told Rose he’d only discuss a Lillard deal if it included a highly protected 1st from Charlotte

  174. You focus on two or three guys and then trade out when they aren’t there because you’re lazy and unprepared. Being lazy and unprepared is exactly the risk you take when you hire an agent with zero personnel experience. It doesn’t even look like he can hire a group of people to do the detailed personnel work, or if they do do it, he just blows it off for his whims.

  175. There are 4 players on the board that I would not have minded picking at #19/21: Butler, McBride, Cooper and Donsumnu. So hopefully we wind up with one of them.

  176. Springer gone (to the Sixers), now i’m just rooting for Queta to be drafted, the Knicks are a lost cause (at the draft).

  177. No, Doug, they’re dumb and don’t know how to make draft night trades. The trick of moving from 27 and 38 to 25 and 33 was an unrepeatable fluke.

  178. The 1 they traded has a decent chance of winding up as 2 2’s. Just dumb as fuck.

  179. This is probably not as bad as trading up to reach for your guy too early. That’s all I got for now.

  180. The Detroit trade is ALMOST as bad. You move down four spots and you get an essentially worthless “asset” in return. You’re better off just drafting the fucking guy you want at 21.

    The asset doesn’t have a lot of value, but you might as well take it if you know you are going to get your player anyway. By moving down they will also save around 300K in cap space. By some miracle that extra 300k may help them land someone they want in free agency or just fit someone in.

  181. The only explanation I can think of is that Rose sent a group text to every other GM saying “There is no one we like at 19 and we are willing to take anything to get rid of it.”

  182. Bagley says we wanted Kispert, Mann or Murphy. I liked Kispert out of those 3, but Mann and Murphy aren’t any better than a bunch of guys available at 19. After specifically targeting a guy last year and then seeing a bunch of dudes they didn’t want play better than him you would hope the FO would learn a lesson

  183. Except Garuba’s gone. Sorry, ignore my previous post. I don’t know how he will pay the buyout

  184. Hubert:
    No, Doug, they’re dumb and don’t know how to make draft night trades. The trick of moving from 27 and 38 to 25 and 33 was an unrepeatable fluke.

    I’ve considered that. If something like this happens again next year, I’ll join you in consigning Team Rose to the ‘stupid’ bin.

  185. There is absolutely no rationalizing a trade as skullfuckingly stupid as that Charlotte trade. Just absolutely no way to use words to make it make sense. It’s up there with “Let’s give 4/72 to an obviously broken down Joakim Noah” and “Maybe Andrea Bargnani is the piece we need to put us over the top.”

    This is the moment where you realize the emperor has no clothes. There will be more terrible moves to come. Bank on it. But hey, we did win that one playoff game that one time.

  186. Perplexing how Leon Rose treated the 19 pick like a radioactive hot potato once he didn’t like how the board was shaping up at that point. Seems like a failure to do due diligence. I don’t think a Sengun-level talent was available at 19 that would’ve netted the Knicks two future firsts, but we could’ve gotten more!

  187. There was no reason even after last year to think that Leon Rose could do this job. That was all badly misplaced optimism, with no real basis. It’s understandable, and there’s nothing wrong with optimism, but it was misplaced. Punting the 33 and the stories about Wesley in the draft room were the real precursors and indicators. Re-upping on Perry was a mini-indicator. And now he’s lit the 19th pick in an excellent draft on fire.

  188. Or maybe it was like when Kramer was suing the coffee company and they were prepared to offer like $2 million plus free coffee for life, but he jumped up and accepted as soon as they offered the free coffee.

    Maybe Charlotte was prepared to offer a heavily protected pick in 2022 and another pick in 2024. But they were halfway through the offer and Leon goes, “I’ll take it!”

  189. There are good players taken at 19 and later in the draft every fucking year. If you can’t find them that just means you suck. And if all you can get for a 1RP is a heavily protected future 1RP that could easily end up turning into two seconds, you turbo-suck.

    There’s a really good chance we just burned an asset for absolutely nothing.

  190. I, ah, don’t get it.

    I wish we had someone in the FO who was as good at their job as Woj is at his.

  191. If as other people state that no one was offering anything of value and the Charlotte offer was the best, then you DO NOT TRADE THE PICK! It is that simple.

  192. Who would have bet that none of Cooper, Butler, or McBride would go in the first round?

  193. The Robinson Cano-style trade is coming soon. Don’t get too attached to RJ.

    Mets fans know what I’m talking about.

  194. At least there are some really good players on the board for 32. If we end up with Cooper, Butler, or Ayo, it will sting less.

  195. The thing is if you don’t like the guys available at 19 you can trade the 19th pick to a team that wants it in the present for additional value in the future, only we traded it for the same fucking thing. Just mind boggling.

  196. It doesn’t matter who we take at 32. None of it matters. The front office is incompetent. It’s only a matter of time before they make a fatal mistake.

  197. Hubert:
    At least there are some really good players on the board for 32. If we end up with Cooper, Butler, or Ayo, it will sting less.

    Imagine thinking we’re going to keep this pick instead of trading it for a highly protected future 2nd.

  198. DRed:
    The thing is if you don’t like the guys available at 19 you can trade the 19th pick to a team that wants it in the present for additional value in the future, only we traded it for the same fucking thing.Just mind boggling.

    We hopefully traded it for the same thing. We might have traded a 1 for two future 2s.

  199. Tonight with #19 really feels like a Bargnani level transaction. I never felt I would feel so bad again. So Knicksy.

  200. @wojespn
    Oklahoma City has acquired No. 32 from the Knicks for Nos. 34 and 36, source tells ESPN.

    Good move can still get our pick of PG;s

  201. Dolan’s team are going to kill me (the Rangers just traded for Ryan Reaves, so now they have a 4-men WWF tag team to use against Tom Wilson… the blues man must be happy).

    If the reported protection are correct, the 19th pick trade is one of the most unbelievable FO moves ever.
    If Charlotte is a “direct” playoffs team (no play-in) next year you get at best the 19th pick otherwise you’re kicking the pick down at least another year.

    If the future pick will be used in a trade… than it looks like our FO has a wrong opinion of our current position in the NBA . We’re not one trade away from contention.

    Plus, if you’re discouraged when 2-3 players you targeted are taken, in a draft like this, it means you haven’t worked enough to identify other good players.
    If Kai Jones (or anyone between 19 and 24) become something, you will be laughed on forever.

  202. DRed:
    The thing is if you don’t like the guys available at 19 you can trade the 19th pick to a team that wants it in the present for additional value in the future, only we traded it for the same fucking thing.Just mind boggling.

    That’s correct UNLESS next year’s draft is expected to be much stronger than this year’s draft. Then the extra time value you are getting is based on the quality of the draft instead of the actual position you draft, 19 next year would be more valuable than 19 this year,

    I’m not a draft guy, but I’m pretty sure I read that next year’s draft is supposed to be a monster because the one and done will go away. If that comes to pass (and these guy would already know) that would part of the negotiation and value. 19 next year could yield quite a player.

  203. We picked this guy:

    Jeremiah Robinson-Earl, 6-9 sophomore forward, Villanova. “I love Villanova guys. They’re all about the right stuff. The only thing holding him back is his shooting. He might be one of the highest IQ guys in the draft. He could be like a Georges Niang, but Georges is a 43 percent 3-point shooter. He’s a little below average athletically, but his mind is so good it makes up for it. He needs to be a poor man’s Al Horford. He’s not the most physical kid, but I think he’ll do enough rebounding wise. He doesn’t have a lot of vertical pop. His shooting mechanics are not flawed, but he needs to develop consistency there.”

  204. That’s correct UNLESS next year’s draft is expected to be much stronger than this year’s draft. Then the extra time value you are getting is based on the quality of the draft instead of the actual position you draft,
    19 next year would be more valuable than 19 this year,

    Yeah, but you need Charlotte to be pretty goddamn good next year for the pick to even convey. Charlotte, if you haven’t noticed, usually sucks.

    This is going to end up being two second round picks years from now, watch. We very likely just flushed this pick down the toilet.

  205. I actually like Joku and McBride a lot (I would have preferred cooper). Not a bad draft except for the 19th pick insanity

  206. Lol at getting the guy most thought we would get at 19 or 21 and getting him 36. Leon playing 5D chess.

  207. Miles McBride I like, he’s like Frank Ntilikina except good. Lockdown defender, plays fearsome 1-on-1 D.

    Probably the best player we drafted. Jokubaitis and Grimes are “meh” to me.

  208. I am basically fine, maybe even more than fine, with every move but the Charlotte trade. That’s a pretty big “but” in this case, though.

  209. DRed: I actually like Joku

    I don’t know this guy at all, can you describe his game a little for us?

  210. I like the McBride pick, but essentially giving away your #19 pick and getting uncertainty in return still rates this as an overall draft as an F grade for me.

  211. What a fucking rollercoaster

    I didn’t know I could get this stressed out over trading down in the late first round!!!!

  212. So OKC actually made a trade where they ended up with fewer pick than before. They must really like the guy at 34

  213. Queta at 39, i’m happy for him. Sacramento is one of the worst teams, management wise, so maybe he shines there and can get traded to a better team.

  214. JK47
    July 29, 2021 at 11:20 pm
    It doesn’t matter who we take at 32. None of it matters. The front office is incompetent. It’s only a matter of time before they make a fatal mistake.

    This is it. You can analyze the 32 (now 34 and 36) picks all you want, you can dissect FA moves etc etc, but it’s all pointless. To win in this league you have to get a LOT right. The Knicks are guaranteed to make a terrible move from time to time consistently, and b/c of that, it washes away any marginal good moves.

    Get out now while you can. It will be worse if you wait until the Knicks “get close” and then make their inevitable big mistake.

  215. This has been completely insane. If you told me we came away with Grimes and McBride before the draft I would’ve been okay with that (not thrilled), but the road there has been…fraught, to say the least.

    Quick grades:

    Grimes: C-

    Joku: I have no god damn clue, anyone have some insight?

    McBride: B+

  216. So for argument’s sake, let’s say the Knicks wanted Grimes and McBride all along. They end up with both of them plus an additional 2nd this year and a future first.

    That’s my Rose colored glasses take (-:

  217. So after all the whining and crying on this board the Knicks wind up with Grimes, McBride, a promising 20yo guard Euro draft and stash plus extra future draft picks….

  218. Let’s continue the proud Knicks tradition of pretending our lowest draft pick was actually our highest draft pick, and vice versa

  219. JK47: Yeah, but you need Charlotte to be pretty goddamn good next year for the pick to even convey. Charlotte, if you haven’t noticed, usually sucks.

    This is going to end up being two second round picks years from now, watch. We very likely just flushed this pick down the toilet.

    1. Charlotte was pretty good last year until everyone was hurt or out and they have quite a bit of upside.

    2. They had a very good night tonight in the draft that will help.

    3. There weren’t going to give us a better pick in a much stronger draft.

    I think it’s very likely we get a similar or better pick and we may get it in a much stronger draft.

    My feeling is that I like the move conceptually given what I think this team should be trying to do strategically. The exact value of the draft swap is a little tough for me, but imo it’s not the disaster people here think. Future drafts are probably going to be stronger than this one if “one and done” is eliminated. A lot more younger kids are going to get selected and better talent will drop. It could turn out to be a much more valuable pick with a little luck.

  220. The future first is kind of fake to be fair. I’m a little annoyed we couldn’t negotiate more favorable protections. It’s conceivable it doesn’t convey as a first. I mean, I don’t expect the Hornets to pick lower than 18 next season, but who knows I guess.

  221. Doug Chu:
    Let’s continue the proud Knicks tradition of pretending our 2nd round pick was our 1st round pick and vice versa

    As a Las Vegas Raiders fan, tonight’s draft feels very familiar.

    This year the Raiders made the worst reach of the first round and selected a clear Day Two talent named Alex Leatherwood, and it was instantly and correctly panned by every draft pundit. Then in the second round, they got a very nice player, safety Trevon Moehrig, who had a first round grade in some mocks. The fans were like “See, we got the first round talent in the second, and vice-versa!”

    But that’s not what winning teams do. Winning teams get first round talent in the first round, and ALSO get first round talent in the second round. Moehrig would have still been there if they had selected an actual first round talent in the first round.

    So yes, the McBride pick is nice, but in no way does it compensate for getting a sack of beans for a #19 overall pick. That just shows that these guys do not valuate draft picks correctly, and will probably continue to leave value on the board.

  222. It doesn’t matter who we take at 32. None of it matters. The front office is incompetent. It’s only a matter of time before they make a fatal mistake.

    I pretty much said the same thing last draft when they incinerated the 35….

    i’m just speechless… this was just a very poor draft following another poor one.. that one turned okish.. .we’ll see how well obi and iq progress.. but the opportunity cost of obi over hali and incinerating the 2nd rd’er… needless to say .. a lot left on the table both years and we’ll be hurting for a long while….

    this draft is an F-… absolutely unfathomable choices all around….

  223. People freaking out but it seemingly all worked out well, no?

    A lot of the players we wanted at 19 ended up going in the 2nd anyways. I really think NBA teams all agreed there was a dearth of talent at 19 & 21. That’s why we got nothing for them. That was my evaluation as well.

    A random late 1st will have more value next year or 2 years from now than this draft. I’m gonna stand by that statement and quite possibly look like an idiot for it.

  224. Fun fact: Rokas Jokubaitas, or “RoJo” as I am now calling him, dropped 31 points on LaMelo Ball at the age of 17 in the Lithuanian league

    The Ringer had him 26th on their big board, which isn’t too shabby

  225. Doug Chu: 6’4 PG, can also play off-ball as a spot-up shooter? I found this blog breaking down film on him, just started reading it

    Thanks. He’s too similar to Vildoza, this guy won’t come this year, if at all.
    So the draft is only McBride and Grimes. Now there’ll be threads saying this is what we wanted to do all along… yeah, right.
    It wasn’t a disaster because of the McBride pick, but it wasn’t much better than that. Knicks and the draft don’t go along easily, that’s for sure.

  226. Gotta hand it to Leon Rose & co. for finding new and exotic ways to fulfill Dolan’s Razor when it comes to the draft.

  227. Yeah, I weirdly like all the picks and Rose saved money in the process. The #19 trade was rough, though. Far from ideal. And we still don’t have a true pg on the roster. Free agency should be interesting.

  228. Joku was a pretty productive 20 year old in Litjuania/Euroleague who just signed for Barcelona I’ve seen some scouting reports that say he’s a fringe athlete. Idk seems like a pretty solid stash pick.

  229. Vildoza and Jokubaitas are the new Chris Childs/Charlie Ward guard combo, I am basing this on absolutely nothing

  230. Doug Chu:
    Fun fact: Rokas Jokubaitas, or “RoJo” as I am now calling him, dropped 31 points on LaMelo Ball at the age of 17 in the Lithuanian league

    The Ringer had him 26th on their big board, which isn’t too shabby

    I see him at 45 on the Ringer’s board.

  231. I missed the draft unfortunately.

    If someone has the mental fortitude at this point to distill all of the Knicks’ cockamamie moves tonight into 2-3 sentences (including what future picks they got), I would be grateful.

  232. Trading the 19th pick is inexcusable. Imagine how much better this draft would look if we had J Johnson/K Johnson/Springer + Grimes, McBride, and Rokas.

    Truly Awful. This is worse than the Knox draft because that was a bad pick this is bad process.

  233. I’m not as out on this draft, process included, as some others. If they had reason to believe McBride or another guard they liked would be there at #32, trading #19 makes some sense in a vacuum. I would not have made the Grimes pick but I don’t dislike him so much I can confidently say the process sucked.

    However, I think the return on #19 is indefensible. When I first heard a Charlotte first I thought that was fine, but we’ve almost locked ourselves out on the pick being better than #19. That means we’re blindly relying on the future draft, and we don’t even know which one it’ll be, being deeper (seems unlikely).

    The idea is probably that a future first has more value than a player we pick at #19, which would be reasonable if the future first was a real future first. It’s not like other teams will be fooled by “future Charlotte first,” they can see the damn protections on it that render it fake. I don’t think it has much trade value.

    Between this and ditching #33 last year in similar fashion, it seems like these guys decide they’re trading a pick and figure out the trade after. That’s not good process.

  234. If we actually get Bassey at #58 this will be the best god awful draft of all time. Or worst good draft. I really don’t know and have never been more confused as to my opinion on a Knicks draft.

  235. Yeah the value of future draft picks lies in the uncertainty. The pick we traded for is certainly not going be particularly valuable.

  236. thenoblefacehumper:
    I’m not as out on this draft, process included, as some others. If they had reason to believe McBride or another guard they liked would be there at #32, trading #19 makes some sense in a vacuum. I would not have made the Grimes pick but I don’t dislike him so much I can confidently say the process sucked.

    However, I think the return on #19 is indefensible. When I first heard a Charlotte first I thought that was fine, but we’ve almost locked ourselves out on the pick being better than #19. That means we’re blindly relying on the future draft, and we don’t even know which one it’ll be, being deeper (seems unlikely).

    The idea is probably that a future first has more value than a player we pick at #19, which would be reasonable if the future first was a real future first. It’s not like other teams will be fooled by “future Charlotte first,” they can see the damn protections on it that render it fake. I don’t think it has much trade value.

    Between this and ditching #33 last year in similar fashion, it seems like these guys decide they’re trading a pick and figure out the trade after. That’s not good process.

    This is a fair assessment. It just seems like they have a blind spot when it comes to getting commensurate value for a pick on short notice. But I still think this is a wait and see situation. There’s a reasonable chance that Charlotte is not in the lottery in the next 4 years, so if the pick conveys it’s pretty much a wash. It’s just the risk that it won’t be that’s unacceptable. They got fair value for the 21 trade-back and excellent value for the 32 trade-back. So for me it really comes down to the players they picked and didn’t pick. If Grimes sucks, then whether they picked him at 19 or 25 doesn’t matter. If McBride is good, then whether they took him at 21 or 36 doesn’t matter. But it was a…

  237. I remember the realization, back in the Joe Smith draft, that I was suddenly older than the top draft picks. Today I had a similar realization, that my kids are now older than the top draft picks. Oh man…

  238. I don’t mind Sims as a Taj understudy if he is back. Looks like he will be with the Westies most of the year though.

  239. I have a really bad feeling about free agency. I think we traded out of the first round to have more cap space. This is going to be a flurry of bad contracts and mediocre players.

  240. There’s not really any such thing as a bad 58th overall pick but Sims would not have been my guy. Maybe he’ll be a half-decent back up big, probably not. The shocker of the draft might be us (seemingly) making and keeping this pick, honestly.

  241. Sims sounds like an excellent Mitch backup/possible replacement. Insanely athletic big with defensive chops.

  242. Sims is not a replacement for Robinson. He projects to hopefully be a good back up center prospect. His athleticism is truly astounding but his production is a bit underwhelming. I think it’s a good pick at 58. There is no one I was itching for.

    I have two big sadnesses around this draft one is an unforgivable blunder in trading 19 for nothing, the other is the missed opportunity of not moving into the mid 2nd round and drafting Cooper.

    I’m not angry about Cooper just sad about missing out but I am as upset about the #19 trade as any move the Knicks have ever done. It’s not the worst or the most franchise altering but it might be the most indefensible. Literally trading a first round pick for most likely nothing at all.

  243. Per those anonymous NBA scouts again:

    Jericho Sims, 6-10 senior forward, Texas. “Nobody helped himself more at the combine than Jericho. He’s freaky bouncy, he plays hard. Not very skilled, he’s more of a dunker, rim runner, lob finisher. His feel is not very good. I wouldn’t call him a great rebounder. Lateral movement is a question. Will he be able to switch off a screen? He only does one or two things well, but he does those really well. Moves his feet better than I’ve seen in a big in a long time. I don’t think he makes smart decisions. I don’t want the ball in his hands. He needs to show consistent energy. You can’t throw it to him on the block. He can’t make a free throw.”

    Seems ok for being picked 58th, but not better than Mitch or Noel. That’s twice we’ve picked players who seem to have done well at the combine.

  244. There’s a reasonable chance that Charlotte is not in the lottery in the next 4 years, so if the pick conveys it’s pretty much a wash. It’s just the risk that it won’t be that’s unacceptable.

    Correct. This is how I feel.

    I feel worse about it than most here, I guess, because I feel like I’m having a very familiar kind of epiphany.

    I’ve spent my whole adult life rooting for mostly terrible teams that make terrible decisions all the time: Knicks, Mets, Raiders. You can say I’m kind of a connoisseur of ill-advised sports transactions. I know a blatantly obvious fuckup when I see one. And generally, executives that make obvious mistakes tend to keep making them. It’s a sign that their whole process is flawed.

    We have some more data points on Leon Rose now. We now know that he fixates on a small handful of players in the draft, and if those players are off the board he will simply panic and punt the pick, even if it means making it a worse pick in the process. We know that he doesn’t really valuate draft picks correctly.

    These are not good signs at all, even if we did manage to get a good player with a second round pick. Maybe Leon Rose uses his agent skills to put together some SuperFriends somewhere down the line. But there is no fucking way this guy is going to build a true contender in a conventional manner.

  245. Quentin Grimes was an excellent pick. He was a top 10 recruit who went to the wrong school, had the brains to both transfer from KU AND move to shooting guard, and then developed into a flame throwing two-way stud who carried a Houston team with zero NBA talent to a Final Four run. I think he’s two-way Tyler Herro, and I’m very excited to see him and Deuce McBride play together during summer league.

    The Charlotte trade isn’t an issue for me. They should have gotten more for the pick, but none of that is going to matter when they just use the Charlotte 1RP to trade for De’Aaron Fox or Karl Anthony Towns in 18 months. We came out of this draft with two guys I like and we added more draft picks. I’m happy with the way things ended.

  246. I might be in the minority but I want no part of a super friends team. I want a team like Utah or Pheonix or Atlanta, or the 90’s Knicks. I cannot imagine it is very fun to root for a Nets team or a Lakers team that has no player the fans have an attachment to. I want players I can grow fond of and get behind. This new obsession with stripping your team bare and signing a couple huge names or trading all your assets for one big name is gross and makes the sport worse. Fuck Leon Rose and fuck this team. They make it so hard to be a fan.

  247. We turned picks at 19, 21, 32 and turned it into McBride, Grimes and a draft and stash point guard playing in arguably the best league outside of the NBA, a future first round pick lottery protected, and a future second round pick. I honestly don’t think that is as dire as people are making it out to be, when you also consider the cap saved from the pick 19 trade.

  248. By not drafting at 19 we saved just under $2.8M this year and $2.9M next year. I don’t think that’s going to make a huge difference

  249. an rj barrett stan account:
    The Charlotte trade isn’t an issue for me. They should have gotten more for the pick, but none of that is going to matter when they just use the Charlotte 1RP to trade for De’Aaron Fox or Karl Anthony Towns in 18 months. We came out of this draft with two guys I like and we added more draft picks. I’m happy with the way things ended.

    How isn’t the debacle of #19 not an issue for you? Rose took a first round pick and turned it into a likely lesser pick next year or it may not even convey to the Knicks for years. It could even turn into second round picks. That pick has so much uncertainty around it now that likely no team will even value it much, since it has so much uncertainty and protections attached to it. Stop trying to defend the indefensible.

  250. I’m not sure this draft can be evaluated yet. The picks we actually made were at least OK and you could even say good, especially in trading down to get the same guy they wanted at a lower price while picking up an extra pick. But of course that’s trumped by the truly bizarre – or inept – trade of #19. The only reason I can’t conclusively call that a spectacular fail is that it almost certainly is related to an impending move in free agency, and that move could turn out to be fantastic or terrible. Either way, the cap space and the future pick to trade will be meaningful – so to me it’s really a question of what that meaning is. If it means getting Dame for that pick and Knox (lol just an example), then you’d have to say it was phenomenal. If it’s used along with three other firsts and RJ, then not so much.

  251. I guess trading the pick gets us above $50M in cap space ($51M is what I have, but depends on McBrides contract).

    We have $10M above a 10yr max and $17M above 7-9yr max

  252. Some things never change, like rooting for this team to do smart competent things and being bitterly disappointed. Tonight felt a lot like Lucy pulling the football away just before Charlie Brown can kick it over and over and over again. What a waste of time not to mention basketball team resources

    That Charlotte trade is an inexplicable dumbass move that confirms the Knicks front office has No Fucking Clue what they are doing.

    Buckle up, free agency is going to be quite the adventure I’m sure

  253. I give this draft an F. I give this team an F.

    It’s actually funny because aside from the #19 pick I actually like the draft. I think where we picked Grimes was good and getting an extra 2nd was nice, The 32 for 34 and 36 was great and while I would have preferred Cooper or Dosunmu to McBride and Joku I still like both of them and am happy we picked them. I even like taking Sims as a flyer since he has otherworldly athleticism.

    The problem is trading the #19 was such a bad move and such a clear portent for a dark future that it doesn’t matter. We are screwed. This management cannot be trusted and even if they stumble into some good moves they will eventually sink the ship.

    We were saved by Charlotte last year or we’d be on the hook for Hayward on a huge contract, Washington saved us from Westbrook but eventually, we will get our man and it will sink the Knicks. Our management is trash and therefore our future is trash because they will undo any gains we make when they finally make their move.

  254. This organization sucks because Dolan doesn’t value a talent evaluator at the top and building this team organically. Instead he hires an agent with connections to build this team through free agency. I feel disaster coming on and see them overpaying for a guy like DeRozen. So hard to remain a fan of this dysfunctional organization.

  255. https://theathletic.com/2740150/2021/07/29/2021-nba-draft-results-round-1-picks-grades-analysis-trades-including-cade-cunningham-to-pistons/?source=user_shared_article

    FWIW, Hollinger really liked the Joku and McBride picks. Less so Grimes but didn’t hate it.

    It’s a tough draft to evaluate because the people doing the whole “if you told me before the night we’d come away with X, Y, and Z players and A and B future picks I’d be happy” thing kind of have a point.

    On the other hand, that doesn’t change the fact that we did something incredibly stupid with our highest pick. It’s silly to say we have to wait-and-see because we took our destiny completely out of our own hands. There is no grand plan for this pick—all the front office can do is hope Charlotte gets better, which is weird because they’re a direct competitor.

    Also, seems worth noting for the “wE cAn’T pLaY tHrEe RoOkIeS” crowd that teams way, way better than us bought second rounders and are signing UDFAs.

  256. as it usually does, and so the conversation once again returns to groundhog’s day:

    I peg you as a “glass is half empty” kind of guy. Am I right?

    to be continued, at some other time…

  257. Also, seems worth noting for the “wE cAn’T pLaY tHrEe RoOkIeS” crowd that teams way, way better than us bought second rounders and are signing UDFAs.

    Well, that’s the rot at the heart of this whole thing. Rose clearly did not want three new rookies on the roster. He’s planning on finding the Derrick Roses and Alec Burkses And Nerlens Noelses of the world on cheap deals forever.

    There are going to be players we passed on at 19 who turn into painfully good players, I guarantee it.

  258. I’m not seeing the CHA protections confirmed anywhere, can someone find it?

  259. “According to ESPN’s Bobby Marks, the protections are 1-18 next year, 1-16 in 2023, 1-14 in 2024 and 1-14 in 2025. If not conveyed by then, the pick will become two future second-rounders”

    So basically Charlotte has to be a top 12 team next year for the pick to convey. If Charlotte misses the playoffs the next four years it turns into two second rounders.

    We’re not going to see a return on that pick for quite a while. That trade is really inexcusable, it’s malpractice.

  260. thenoblefacehumper: Also, seems worth noting for the “wE cAn’T pLaY tHrEe RoOkIeS” crowd that teams way, way better than us bought second rounders and are signing UDFAs.

    if we drafted at 19, we’d have 5 rookies including Vildoza, 5>3.

    I’m not saying you can’t have 5 rookies on a team and be competitive, but if Julius Randle is your best player followed by ??? then you can’t expect to be competitive. If we had Lebron James and AD or Ben Simmons and Joel Embiid, then we can load up on rookies because players at that level can cover for a rookie’s shitty play. Randle isn’t the type of player that’s good enough to make up for a weak link in the lineup.

  261. This is actually why I also don’t like Thibs, he very much represents our short-term mindset. Why can’t we just be patient. Why can’t a good year in which we overachieve be a good thing? Instead, it means our short-sighted management just moves up the timeline. We showed less patience in this draft than Golden State and they have three all-stars over 30. Why can’t we just develop players? Why does it always have to be about the next move, the big star?

    How would Keon Johnson (or Jalen or Springer) being on this team have any negative effect on next year? If he is raw send him down to the g-league, How in the world is having a Keon Johnson (or Jalen or Springer) on our roster not better than Theo Pinson or Kevin Knox? Also, how is he not more valuable as a trade piece than a “maybe” future 1st from Charlotte that won’t be in the lottery and might never convey.

  262. Early Bird, why are we trying so hard to be “competitive”? Competitive for what? We are going to be hard-pressed to repeat this year no matter what we do. Having one fewer rookie doesn’t change that equation much. Plus Joku probably stays in Europe and Sims is a two-way. I also wouldn’t really call Vildoza a rookie in a traditional sense. He is a free agent signing and while new to the NBA he is polished and most likely ready to contribute right now.

    So that’s 2 rookies or 3 with #19. I don’t see how adding a player like Keon Johnson hurts our chances to be “competitive”. In fact, young players developing is probably our best chance to improve moving forward.

    This feels like another GM who somehow thinks they are smarter than the rest of the league and doesn’t have to do conventional things. It’s Phil all over again. Who needs to maximize draft picks? If you are Leon Rose you will pull talent right out of your ass.

  263. I think that our front office tries to be too clever sometimes. They want to do things like trade down and still get the guy they want so they can get sn extra asset. My feeling is they had clever plans for the number 19 pick and something went wrong with them so they improvised. I don’t understand why they didn’t just pick someone else when their plans fizzled though.

    I guess it’s also possible they have some possible trade they want that needs another future draft pick, but the one from Charlotte isn’t very impressive with all the protections it has.

  264. Why does Hollinger think we got picks 34, 35 and 36? I know OKC traded us 34 and 36 for 32. But he reports New Orleans traded us 35 also. I don’t remember that trade. If so, we also have Herbert Jones.

  265. Why does Hollinger think we got picks 34, 35 and 36? I know OKC traded us 34 and 36 for 32. But he reports New Orleans traded us 35 also. I don’t remember that trade. If so, we also have Herbert Jones.

    I believe it’s a dumb typo. I watched the Pellies GM talk about Jones on the team, so I’m sure he is a Pellie. I think Hollinger even says he liked the move for New Orleans, so it’s just a typo.

  266. Last night was an energy sapping roller coaster, I’m waiting a new grades Thread to share my after sleep impressions… :-)

  267. I want to be taken aback by the selection of Grimes at 25. But then I remembered how Quickley worked out, so I’m gonna continue giving the FO the benefit of doubt. Grimes does fit as a cost efficient replacement for Bullock should he sign elsewhere. Plus..we got IMMENSE value in the 2nd round.

    Bleijenbergh didn’t get drafted. It might behoove the team to move Knox and sign this kid.

    So now I’m thinking Burks, Rose, and Taj all return, and we sign Lowry to an inflated 1+1

  268. I think the most disappointing aspect of the Knicks draft was the delayed gratification of their picks. Having to wait two hours to get to pick 19, only to have it punted into next year, and the same thing happened again at pick 21 was certainly demoralizing a bit. Then they did it again at 32. So frustrating.

    They started with 4 picks, and ended with four players plus additional future draft capital. The consensus here was 19 and 21 were dart throws, so at least they avoided packaging them to move up,

  269. Excerpt from today’s long Macri newsletter about the draft. He liked the Charlotte deal:

    By dealing the pick and kicking the can down the road, the Knicks took a situation in which an asset almost certainly would have depreciated in value (a third rookie not getting time in the rotation) and turned it into a situation where that asset retains roughly the same value it had right now: a future pick in the high teens.

    Better yet, because of the protections, New York likely won’t have to worry about the next time they’ll have to kick the can even further down the road for a few years. By that time, they won’t be the ones doing the kicking, which is what this trade was really all about.

    It’s no secret that the Knicks are gearing up for a trade for a star. Everything they do, from their drafting strategy to the trades they make to the free agents they sign, is done with that end in mind. Quibble with the strategy if you’d like, but it is what it is.

    This trade gives the Knicks yet another first round pick to throw in a potential deal down the line. Are the protections great? Not really. You’d have loved to get a final year that was top 5 or even top 10 protected, but my guess is that anything less than lotto protections would have been a deal-breaker for Charlotte. New York’s win was in extending the “converts to two seconds” to five years out; first, because it’s a long time, and second, because it limits how easily the Hornets will be able to make other transactions to improve their team. As it stands, the next first rounder they can trade is in 2027.

    I just can’t be as optimistic. Seems like another “decent results, bad process” draft night for this regime. I like the guys we took, but they had to get more for 19.

  270. I don’t like Grimes; he’s stiff and unathletic and only shot 35% on catch-and-shoot threes.

    Incinerating the 19th pick in what a ton of people think is the best draft since 2003 was dumb as fuck, and the product of laziness and lack of preparation. Macri’s rationale seemingly rests on other teams confusing it with an actual 1, when it’s anything but. It’s a shit asset, far lower in asset value than 19 in this draft.

    Grimes and McBride are both Thibs guys.

    Crap draft.

  271. Macri sounds like rationalizing to avoid losing sanity over it.

    Anyway, this is probably the reason I find this trade so unbelievable, I find it stupid on merit alone plus I’m terrified about this “upcoming big trade”, I can’t see one that nets a star without fucking our future for years,
    so I’ll refuse everything that helps us getting closer to it.

  272. I am tending more to the Macri camp than Alan camp on the Charlotte trade. At some point they decided 2 swings were not worth it—most likely as certain players were taken off the board. They made a decision to have 1 swing and convert the 2nd swing into a trade asset. The “bad process” part was not necessarily this decision but the timing of it as it is clear that the result was a lower than expected return. Probably had to do with the short window they had to convert the asset. This should have been foreseeable, so yes it is bad.

    I am not however a proponent of the strategy. I would have liked to have 2 swings even with who was left on the board. By all accounts we have a good developmental team and who cares if Thibs would not have played all the picks.

    I don’t have a strong opinion either way on the players we took. So hard for me to rate the draft but if the base grade were for the players (for example B), I would notch it down by 1 (to B minus) for the bad process on the Charlotte pick and 3 notches (to C minus) for the strategy of not taking the swing>

  273. supernova: How isn’t the debacle of #19 not an issue for you? Rose took a first round pick and turned it into a likely lesser pick next year or it may not even convey to the Knicks for years. It could even turn into second round picks. That pick has so much uncertainty around it now that likely no team will even value it much, since it has so much uncertainty and protections attached to it. Stop trying to defend the indefensible.

    When the Knicks have 3 1RPs in the 2023 draft to deal for a star, remember that you called trading the 19th pick a debacle.

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