Knicks Morning News (Sunday, Jan 22 2012)

  • [New York Post] Fans fanning flames of D’Antoni’s hot seat (Sun, 22 Jan 2012 05:08:22 -0500)

    We certainly would feel guiltier about this if we didn’t know how well-off they were. Look, in a lot of ways, calling for a coach to get fired is the same thing as voting against an incumbent politician on Election Day: It’s nothing personal, we just don’t…

  • [New York Post] Knicks’ losing streak hits six vs. Nuggets (Sun, 22 Jan 2012 05:01:44 -0500)

    All sides of the enigmatic Carmelo Anthony were on display last night â?? the good, the bad, the brilliant and the ugly. Mostly ugly.
    Melo’s late fourth-quarter heroics become a moot point and led to a sixth straight Knicks loss in a double-overtime thriller to the Nuggets, 119-114, at the…

  • [New York Post] Fracture sidelines Harrellson (Sun, 22 Jan 2012 03:08:03 -0500)

    Surprising rookie center Josh Harrellson is out six weeks after fracturing his right wrist after taking a fall late in the first overtime of the Knicks’ 119-114 double OT defeat to the Nuggets at the Garden.Harrellson will need surgery, and his absence is a big blow to an already…

  • [New York Post] Gallinari shines (Sun, 22 Jan 2012 02:31:10 -0500)

    This is who the Knicks thought Danilo Gallinari would be.Returning to Madison Square Garden for the first time since February’s trade to the Nuggets for Carmelo Anthony, the former Knicks’ first-round pick showed all that had once been envisioned of him, leading the Nuggets to a 119-114 double…

  • [ESPN.com – New York Knicks] Melo: 'It's on me' to get Amare involved (Sun, 22 Jan 2012 02:15:32 EDT)

    Amare Stoudemire had just one field goal attempt in the final 24 minutes of the Knicks’ double-overtime loss to Denver.
    Afterward, Stoudemire took the high road, saying he didn’t care about his shot attempts, just winning games.
    But a contrite Carmelo Anthony, who went 10-for-30 from the floor, admitted that the Knicks (6-10) need to get the ball to Stoudemire more often.
    “I think we as a team need to do a better job getting Amare the ball,” Anthony said.

  • [ESPN.com – New York Knicks] Shumpert sits with cramps (Sun, 22 Jan 2012 01:48:04 EDT)

    Knicks rookie Iman Shumpert was forced to the bench for both overtimes against Denver on Saturday with cramps. He sat with ice wrapped around his back during the two overtime periods and received an IV after the game.
    It is a problem that’s prohibited Shumpert from completing games twice this season.
    He also dealt with cramping issues in college at Georgia Tech and in high school.
    The Knicks training staff has been working with Shumpert to avoid the cramps, but they continue to affect the 21-year-old guard.

  • [ESPN.com – New York Knicks] Melo: Maybe I'm shooting too much (Sun, 22 Jan 2012 01:40:02 EDT)

    After the Knicks’ double-overtime loss to Denver on Saturday, Carmelo Anthony sat in silence at his locker, in full uniform, for about 15 minutes, thinking about the events of the past week.
    The Knicks (6-9) had lost four home games in the past six days, two to teams with 4-9 records at the time.
    In those four games, Anthony shot a combined 35-of-105 (33 percent).
    “Maybe I need to not take so many shots. I don’t know,” he said. “There’s just a bunch of stuff that goes through my mind.

  • [ESPN.com – New York Knicks] Gallo scores career-high vs. former team (Sun, 22 Jan 2012 01:34:05 EDT)

    NEW YORK — There was a stretch during the first half of the 2010-11 season when people said Nuggets small forward Danilo Gallinari needed to penetrate more, to stop shooting so many threes.
    They were partially right because the Knicks needed another free-throw threat besides Amare Stoudemire. STAT, like Carmelo Anthony this season, was mostly on his own at the stripe. Then things changed. Gallo started getting to the line more at the end of January.

  • [ESPN.com – New York Knicks] Harrington carries Denver in the 4th (Sun, 22 Jan 2012 01:28:29 EDT)

    NEW YORK – For Al Harrington, it wasn’t the homecoming that it would be for Danilo Gallinari or even Timofey Mozgov. Harrington has played at Madison Square Garden plenty of times in a number of different jerseys.
    Harrington wasn’t included in the Carmelo Anthony trade. He signed with Denver the previous year. At the same time, Harrington is the most connected to the city. He sports a large tattoo of the Statue of Liberty on his right shin.

  • [ESPN.com – New York Knicks] Harrellson fractures right wrist (Sun, 22 Jan 2012 00:07:18 EDT)

    NEW YORK — The Knicks have announced that Josh Harrellson has a fractured right wrist and will be out approximately six weeks after the time of surgery, which is not determined yet.
    Harrellson suffered the injury when he fell to the ground at the end of the first overtime in the Knicks’ 119-114 double-overtime loss to the Nuggets. Harrellson, who finished with only two points in 17 minutes, did not speak to reporters following the game.
    In health-related news, Iman Shumpert sat out both overtimes with what he called “full body cramps,” which has been an ongoing issue for him.

  • [New York Newsday] Gallinari (37) helps Denver beat Knicks in 2 OTs (Sun, 22 Jan 2012 00:58:40 EST)

    Carmelo Anthony spent part of the pregame in the Nuggets' locker room, talking with his old teammates and coaches. Then he spent most of the night misfiring jumpers for his current team.

  • [New York Newsday] Harrellson fractures wrist (Sun, 22 Jan 2012 01:02:15 EST)

    Knicks rookie big man Josh Harrellson fractured his right wrist Saturday night and will miss approximately six weeks after he has surgery. No date has been set for the operation.

  • [New York Newsday] Gallinari a contented Nugget (Sun, 22 Jan 2012 00:09:16 EST)

    There was nothing poignant or complicated about Danilo Gallinari's pregame meeting with his former coach. No fence-mending or grudge-burying. Just a few words with Mike D'Antoni, in Italian.

  • [New York Times] Nuggets 119, Knicks 114, Double OT: Gallinari’s Career-High 37 Points Help Nuggets Top Knicks in Double Overtime (Sun, 22 Jan 2012 07:09:08 GMT)

    Carmelo Anthony had 25 points and 10 rebounds for the Knicks, but Danilo Gallinari, the player the Knicks gave up for Anthony, was a little better, with 37 points and 11 rebounds.

  • [New York Times] Phil Jackson Is Seduced by the Energy of New York (Sun, 22 Jan 2012 06:48:16 GMT)

    Phil Jackson, the winner of 11 N.B.A. titles as a coach, has recently been mentioned as a replacement for Mike D’Antoni, the current coach of the Knicks.

  • [New York Times] N.B.A. Roundup: Without Wade, Heat Cruise Past the 76ers (Sun, 22 Jan 2012 07:09:08 GMT)

    Chris Bosh scored 30 points, LeBron James added 28 points and 9 rebounds and the Miami Heat remained unbeaten without Dwyane Wade in the lineup this season.

  • [New York Times] Bosh Guides Home-Loving Heat Past 76ers (Sun, 22 Jan 2012 07:56:52 GMT)

    Chris Bosh sparked the Miami Heat to a third home win in a row on Saturday, draining 30 points in a 113-92 victory over the Philadelphia 76ers.

  • [New York Times] Millsap Scores 26 to Power Jazz Past Timberwolves (Sun, 22 Jan 2012 04:55:47 GMT)

    Paul Millsap scored 12 of his 26 points in the fourth quarter to power the Utah Jazz past the Minnesota Timberwolves 108-98 on Saturday night.

  • [New York Times] Bosh Bags 30 as Heat Torch 76ers (Sun, 22 Jan 2012 04:27:02 GMT)

    Chris Bosh sparked the Miami Heat to a third home win on the bounce Saturday, draining 30 points in a 113-92 victory over the Philadelphia 76ers Saturday.

  • [New York Times] Nuggets Beat Anthony, Knicks in 2 Overtimes (Sun, 22 Jan 2012 05:58:47 GMT)

    Carmelo Anthony sat silently at his locker, wondering if it was time to rest his aching body, or even shoot less.

  • [New York Times] Odom, West Lead Mavs to 83-81 Win Over Hornets (Sun, 22 Jan 2012 04:10:54 GMT)

    Lamar Odom’s solid first start of the season helped the Dallas Mavericks overcome the absence of star forward Dirk Nowitzki.

  • [New York Times] Martin, Lowry Lead Rockets Past Spurs 105-102 (Sun, 22 Jan 2012 03:52:48 GMT)

    Kevin Martin scored 25 points, Kyle Lowry had 14 points and eight assists and the Houston Rockets took advantage of Tim Duncan’s absence to beat the San Antonio Spurs 105-102 on Saturday night.

  • [New York Times] Boozer Leads Injury-Depleted Bulls Past Bobcats (Sun, 22 Jan 2012 03:47:02 GMT)

    Carlos Boozer scored 17 of his 23 points in the second half to lead the injury-depleted Chicago Bulls to a 95-89 win over the struggling Charlotte Bobcats on Saturday night.

  • [New York Times] Gay Scores 23 as Grizzlies Rout Kings 128-95 (Sun, 22 Jan 2012 03:46:50 GMT)

    Rudy Gay had 23 points, Mike Conley and O.J. Mayo added 22 apiece and the Memphis Grizzlies won their sixth straight, 128-95 over the Sacramento Kings on Saturday night.

  • [New York Times] Durant, Westbrook Lead Thunder Past Nets 84-74 (Sun, 22 Jan 2012 03:40:58 GMT)

    Kevin Durant had 20 points and a season-high 15 rebounds and the Oklahoma Thunder stifled the New Jersey Nets on defense in an 84-74 victory Saturday night.

  • [New York Times] Stuckey, Pistons Hold On to Beat Blazers 94-91 (Sun, 22 Jan 2012 03:25:58 GMT)

    Rodney Stuckey scored 28 points and the Detroit Pistons won for only the second time in 12 games, beating the Portland Trail Blazers 94-91 on Saturday night.

  • [New York Times] Bosh Scores 30 to Lead Heat Past 76ers 113-92 (Sun, 22 Jan 2012 03:08:07 GMT)

    Chris Bosh scored 30 points, LeBron James added 28 points and nine rebounds and the Miami Heat remained unbeaten without Dwyane Wade in the lineup this season, defeating the Philadelphia 76ers 113-92 on Saturday night.

  • [New York Times] Johnson Scores 25 as Hawks Roll Past Cavs 121-94 (Sun, 22 Jan 2012 02:34:49 GMT)

    Joe Johnson scored 25 points and the Atlanta Hawks, coming off a loss that prompted their coach to say they quit, responded with their highest scoring output of the season in a 121-94 rout of the Cleveland Cavaliers on Saturday night.

  • [New York Times] Off the Dribble: Quick Rebound in Cleveland (Sun, 22 Jan 2012 01:25:17 GMT)

    When LeBron James left the Cavaliers, the devastation was supposed to be complete. But in the second season after his departure, they are doing the unexpected.

  • [New York Times] Nowitzki Will Miss 4 Games to Improve Conditioning (Sun, 22 Jan 2012 05:34:55 GMT)

    Dirk Nowitzki sat out Dallas’ victory in New Orleans on Saturday night and will miss at least three more games so the star forward can get in better game shape while strengthening his sore right knee.

  • [New York Times] Spain’s Rubio Turning Heads in NBA Debut Season (Sun, 22 Jan 2012 01:18:07 GMT)

    Whether driving the lane or the snow-fallen roads of frigid Minnesota, Timberwolves point guard Ricky Rubio navigates with a fearless abandonment that’s winning over fans and team mates alike in his debut season in the National Basketball Association (NBA).

  • [New York Daily News] Knicks punked again (Sun, 22 Jan 2012 09:08:58 GMT)

    The Knicks got punked again Saturday night. This time is was by Danilo Gallinari, Al Harrington and in some ways even James Dolan. Carmelo Anthony’s grudge match against his former club lasted well into the night but the result for the Knicks and Anthony were the same; another loss and plenty of missed shots.

  • [New York Daily News] Melo clangs revenge shot (Sun, 22 Jan 2012 06:35:18 GMT)

    What a perfect time for the Nuggets to come to town, with Melo and Co. imploding, Jim Dolan’s reckless basketball decisions laid out in public for one and all to see and George Karl’s team doing what the Knicks wish they were doing: Playing team basketball and winning.

  • Liked it? Take a second to support Mike Kurylo on Patreon!

    Mike Kurylo

    Mike Kurylo is the founder and editor of KnickerBlogger.net. His book on the 2012 Knicks, "We’ll Always Have Linsanity," is on sale now. Follow him on twitter (@KnickerBlogger).

    102 thoughts to “Knicks Morning News (Sunday, Jan 22 2012)”

    1. Crossroads Part I
      I’ve been against the Melo trade from the beginning, even for a much smaller package of assets than the knicks surrendered. Never made sense to me. The knicks had a young, decent, team that was a couple of attainable pieces short of becoming one of the elites. The whole idea seemed like a big step backwards, and I was afraid that it would turn into exactly what is happening now, a hodgepodge of talent that does not fit together and has no chemistry. . .1-on-1 iso’s, boring, losing, chucking, superstar oriented. Didn’t we learn anything from Marbury?
      Melo is everything I was afraid he’d be, but one thing I’ve noticed this season is that when he plays ball movement basketball, he becomes really super terrific on the offensive end. I mean almost LeBron terrific. He draws a lot of attention and passes well. In that mode, he’s playing the right notes to fit the music. It, uptempo, ball movement, team concept, SSOL basketball. The offense becomes unstoppable.
      Maybe, just maybe, Melo will transform his game. At least, he may try. Will it last more than a game, or three? Maybe not. But you never know.
      Melo is at a crossroads of his career right now. It’s times like these when individuals have the greatest opportunity to grow. Melo said some of the right things after the game last night. Hopefully, he had an epiphany, and the next game will be the dawn of a new ere. Stranger things have happened.

    2. @1

      well, there are positive signs… the role players played pretty well yesterday, Walker and Fields were much better than usual so far this season, and the talk about “maybe I need to shoot less” and “It’s my job to get Amare involved” shows that Carmelo is not totally oblivious to his problems.

      with Baron starting to practice maybe monday, I hope Melo sits for a while, heals completely from his injuries and then comes back with a different mindset, together with Baron, and we can be a much better team.

    3. After reading a lot of after game commentary, I’m beginning to believe that the knicks problem is D’antoni.
      When I read things from Melo like:
      “Maybe I need to not take so many shots. I don’t know,” he said. “There’s just a bunch of stuff that goes through my mind. Just [trying to figure] out ways to make other guys better. Should I pass it more?”

      . . .
      “The coaches do run the offense through me so I’ll take it. I’l take that blame,” Anthony said.

      If D;antoni isn’t telling him to do this and he’s figuring it out from screaming fans during the game, that’s a problem.
      If that’s the case, D’antoni must go.

    4. I can’t even lie. Phil Jackson on the Knicks sideline sounds very appealing. The prospect of Diddy, STAT and Melo running the triangle is amazing. Melo’s got the midrange game down and would excel in running around screens and scoring on turnarounds à la Kobe/ MJ. If we could make one change that’d be it and I’m far from a fire D’Antoni chant ringleader.

    5. LamontWallace:
      I can’t even lie. Phil Jackson on the Knicks sideline sounds very appealing. The prospect of Diddy, STAT and Melo running the triangle is amazing. Melo’s got the midrange game down and would excel in running around screens and scoring on turnarounds à la Kobe/ MJ. If we could make one change that’d be it and I’m far from a fire D’Antoni chant ringleader.

      I don’t know, the triangle really needs a big post presence, a big man with passing skills who can play with his back to the basket, and I’m not confident Amare can be that guy, he’s never been.

      but otherwise, Melo can post up pretty well, and the ball movement would definitely be nice to watch… and well, Phil would probably figure it out and we’d be a much better team.

    6. Bruno Almeida: I don’t know, the triangle really needs a big post presence, a big man with passing skills who can play with his back to the basket, and I’m not confident Amare can be that guy, he’s never been.

      but otherwise, Melo can post up pretty well, and the ball movement would definitely be nice to watch… and well, Phil would probably figure it out and we’d be a much better team.

      Thats not even close to true.

      Luc Longley? Dennis Rodman?

      The triangle just needs scorers and execution.

    7. LamontWallace: Thats not even close to true.

      Luc Longley? Dennis Rodman?

      The triangle just needs scorers and execution.

      that’s when you have a team with the best player ever and a top 25 guy at least…

      look at the Lakers recent titles, much of what the Lakers did was channeling the offense through Gasol, using his post skills and awesome passing… without him, no amount of triangle or coaching would have done it.

    8. How about instead of these far-fetched narratives about “the growth of the individual,” like some kind of stupid late-20s kunstlerroman, we get some players who are already good. Yeah?

    9. Just to put a little perspective on the “if Melo would pass the ball more, we’d be a much better team” argument. I don’t want him taking 30 shots a night by any means, his shooting % has been woeful for a long stretch and he does need to facilitate more. But if you watch the games, the problem is more about our offensive sets than Melo just catching and chucking. It’s 5 guys standing around, and when Melo gets the ball with 7 seconds on the shot clock, what are his options? Give the ball back to Fields? Pass it to Shumpert at the top of the 3 pt. circle? And when we come out of timeouts at the end of 4th quarters and OT, the “play” is get the ball to Melo and have him go one on one – no screens, no back picks. Remember the KG screen in the playoffs to free up Ray Allen? Or watch the Spurs under Popovich execute textbook plays out of every timeout.

      Also, the idea that the offense just flows beautifully when Melo’s not in the game, well, when Walker and Douglas actually hit open 3’s, it sure does make the offense look like it’s flowing, whether Melo is in the game or not.

      I think D’Antoni deserves as much of the blame as Melo for our stagnant offensive sets; let’s all hope that a real PG solves some of these problems.

    10. I don’t have a problem with Melo Iso if there’s 5 seconds left on the clock. It shouldn’t be the play at 20 shot clock though.

    11. Great pic of our “play” out of a timeout at the end of the first OT

      http://twitter.com/#!/therrick20/status/160970291001036801/photo/1

      Yes, Melo was triple teamed and yes, he shouldn’t have forced up the shot. But the coach knows the Nuggets are going to throw double and triple teams, isn’t there a play that plans for that? In that picture, you can see he has no passing lanes, there are no cutters, just Fields and Douglas standing outside the arc. That’s my biggest complaint about D’antoni, nothing creative out of timeouts.

    12. hoolahoop:
      Crossroads Part I
      I’ve been against the Melo trade from the beginning, even for a much smaller package of assets than the knicks surrendered. Never made sense to me. The knicks had a young, decent, team that was a couple of attainable pieces short of becoming one of the elites. The whole idea seemed like a big step backwards, and I was afraid that it would turn into exactly what is happening now, a hodgepodge of talent that does not fit together and has no chemistry. . .1-on-1 iso’s, boring, losing, chucking, superstar oriented. Didn’t we learn anything from Marbury?
      Melo is everything I was afraid he’d be, but one thing I’ve noticed this season is that when he playsball movement basketball, he becomes really super terrific on the offensive end. I mean almost LeBron terrific. He draws a lot of attention and passes well. In that mode, he’s playing the right notes to fit the music. It, uptempo, ball movement, team concept,SSOL basketball. The offense becomes unstoppable.
      Maybe, just maybe, Melo will transform his game. At least, he may try. Will it last more than a game, or three? Maybe not. But you never know.
      Melo is at a crossroads of his career right now. It’s times like these when individuals have the greatest opportunity to grow. Melo said some of the right things after the game last night. Hopefully, he had an epiphany, and the next game will be the dawn of a new ere. Stranger things have happened.

      he should go and visit earl monroe in the hospital and have a nice long chat…….

    13. LamontWallace: Thats not even close to true.

      Luc Longley? Dennis Rodman?

      The triangle just needs scorers and execution.

      the triangle works really well when you have jordan and pippen or kobe and shaq or kobe, gasol and bynum.

      phil coaches really well under such circumstances:-) that’s not to say he wouldn’t be a vast upgrade, but the players make the system and not the other way around.

      belicheck’s 3-4 defense looks much better with lt flying off the edge than it does today in new england. (also in before i know he plays 4-3 today also, but the point is a general one).

    14. bobneptune: he should go and visit earl monroe in the hospital and have a nice long chat…….

      LOL, yeah.
      During the game, talking about Melo, Breen asked Clyde if players could change. Clyde replied, “If they want to. Earl Monroe did”.

    15. THCJ, should we get a fantastic player like, I don’t know, Zach Randolph? All sarcasm aside, pretending that players don’t change and that circumstances and role players aren’t extremely important parts of a team’s success is ignoring basketball history a lot more than never looking at a stat sheet. Players like Paul Pierce, Zach Randolph, Kobe, and Dirk have all had a lot of the same criticisms as Melo, and they’ve all been mediocre according to advanced stats at multiple points in their career. Worked out pretty well for the team’s that kept their inefficient chuckers, and Randolph would look a lot more appealing on this team than Amar’e.

      It’s possible to criticize Melo’s current play without making illogical assumptions about his inability to change as a player in the future. I have less hope for Amar’e, I’d love to trade him for youth and depth to a team like the Rockets or Hornets. Regardless, trying to desperately build around stars doesn’t work unless you stumble on multiple guys at once and then get several veteran role players to sign on your team at a discount. Miami has Battier, Miller, and Haslem for very little, we have Fields, Walker, and Jorts. That’s a pretty significant factor in the team’s losing.

    16. Zach Randolph has been up and down his whole career. Sometimes he’s great (contract years), other times he’s (ostensibly lazy and) not very productive.

      Why are you making such a straw-man out of me?

      Players really don’t change that much after their first few seasons. Great players stay great, and of course playing next to legit superstars (Wade, LeBron, for example) will make a role player’s game a bit easier. But a bad shooter will be a bad shooter forever, mostly.

      My point has always been that ANYTHING is possible, but not everything is likely. It’s not that Carmelo can’t change, but given the data we have on thousands of other players who came before him, it’s unlikely. This is if you believe that statistics can be accurately meted to individual players, which I do, to a certain extent. You seem to think that your subjective evaluation supersedes that of statistical analysis, and that’s what I consider hubris. Maybe I’m wrong.

      Here’s an analogy, which may not work, but I’m willing to give it a go. I have several friends who are or have been addicted to heavy opioids, real ugly stuff. One of my friends beat it (with a lot of in-patient therapy and some serious support for alcoholism, heroin, pills, etc.), but most of them are on and off the wagon. I would never tell them that the odds are against their favor for long-term sobriety, even though they are. I may hope for their health and wish for their well-being, but that doesn’t mean I should wager money on them in the hope that they’ll be better than they have been in the past at sobriety. That would be a foolish thing for me to do because of the poor odds for drug use and addiction.

      Now if you think that the statistics remain fairly consistent across time (and numbers like WS and WP are consistent as they come when accounting for a player’s age, injury, etc.), then investing in Carmelo is the same kind of risk. The numbers don’t bode well for the return of your investment.

    17. “All sarcasm aside, pretending that players don’t change and that circumstances and role players aren’t extremely important parts of a team’s success is ignoring basketball history a lot more than never looking at a stat sheet.”

      I am not sure who is saying this. Most people who like stats believe that role players are people too.

      Also, Zach Randolph had microfracture surgery.

    18. Again THCJ I would take that analogy a lot more seriously if I hadn’t read a WP article that stated the Mavs would have been better off keeping Kris Humpries and trading Dirk last year, regardless of salary differences. Besides you talk about player consistency over time, but then immediately talk about how Randolph’s stats change because of the subjective argument that Randolph only improved last year because he was in a contract year. Maybe it was that, maybe he just really likes Memphis and is playing harder on that team. Where’s the correlation that shows which one is true?

      On a larger note, statistical analysis is a tool used to form a conclusion. I do look at stats, actually my job and education have involved far more advanced statistical analysis than the simple linear correlations used by WP and WS. It’s not even hubris to think that statistical analysis makes your argument superior on its own, it’s ignorance of how statistics work.

      In fact if you wanted to actually look at the NBA in an advanced analytical way, you’d have to start by throwing out the initial box score and collecting data on the many things that go on within the game. Imagine tracking the amount of times Chandler stops a pick and roll by forcing a terrible shot over his outstretched hand versus tracking how many blocks he had a game. Then you could try to look at each action based on how many points it is expected to help stop or produce. For example, a steal at halfcourt by ball pressure from a point guard is probably going to lead to a really easy fast break, which means it has more value than stripping someone under the basket and forcing the ball out of bounds, and serious analysis would attempt to account for the difference instead of pretending it all balances out over time. It would also give more value to a player like Howard drawing a double team and then kicking it out than to the player who made the final smart pass for the 3, although all 3 players get credit in…

    19. Knicks fans need to chill seriously.. I’m frustrated as a fan too but I don’t think the players and coach deserved the nasty stuff they are getting at home; especially for a team that is still learning each others out so early in the season. The booing isn’t helping the team get better at all! In fact, I think a large part of the reason why the team is in this offensive funk is due to the extensive booing at the garden..the high expectation and pressure are making our players think rather play (only in NY..)

      I still remember the “Fire Jeff Van Gundy” chant(s) so well back in the late ’90s… Jeff was a goner for sure if Houston’s shot hadn’t bounced in that day..? True? but..was Jeff really that bad? The Knicks came together that year (with a lot to prove to the world and themselves) and made all the way to the Final, not because our coach suddenly became great at coaching in the playoff. The point is.. all the missed “made-able” shots in these games are not the coach’s fault. The coach is blamed for everything, yet no one acknowledge the team’s improved defense? God I feel bad for this dude. I say give the team a chance at least until we see what BD can do for us.. let’s not panic yet…

    20. that system.

      Linearly correlating the past to the future only makes sense if the conditions in the past are equal or at least approximate to previous conditions. A player that has stayed on the same team for 5 years has likely settled into a consistent role, where his production can be accurately predicted. If his role changes, however, it doesn’t help me to look at just a few variables from the box score instead of looking at what he actually did on a play by play basis. I need to know if a player can get individual stops. If he makes quick passes and good decisions. If he’s efficient because he’s getting himself good shots or because his teammates are. With all that information, you’re not going to simply arrive at a formula that compares all players equally. Especially not by adding up the weighted average of his box score stats based on perceived importance, then linearly correlating that average to a team’s efficiency differential. WS and WP being consistent over time says just as much about the stats themselves than the game of basketball

    21. i dont know: i just find myself yelling at the knicks to push the ball up the court. i c diantoni doing the same thing … we both need to go

    22. Let’s see who knows what the next excuse will be.
      Already taken: takes time to gel, not enough time to practice, no training camp, it’s the coaches fault, need a big man in the middle, wait for Baron Davis . . .

      Here’s one:
      wait till jorts gets back.

    23. The Davis one seems reasonable to me. The guy is a legit passing point guard. If he can’t do anything with this team, then yeah, things are just broken. But I think it’s fair enough to want to wait to see him first give it a shot.

      Although, yeah, I personally would make a deal for D-Will and a player for Melo before waiting for Baron Davis, but I can understand wanting to wait.

      He has a career 36% assist rate! And he’s been passing more as he’s gotten older.

    24. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin):
      The Davis one seems reasonable to me. The guy is a legit passing point guard. If he can’t do anything with this team, then yeah, things are just broken. But I think it’s fair enough to want to wait to see him first give it a shot.

      Although, yeah, I personally would make a deal for D-Will and a player for Melo before waiting for Baron Davis, but I can understand wanting to wait.

      He has a career 36% assist rate! And he’s been passing more as he’s gotten older.

      The only thing I don’t like about “The Davis Excuse” is that you’re adding a not so great shooter to an already bad group of shooters. And I assume his defense is average at best.

      But if he essentially replaces Fields as a starter (slide Shump over to shooting guard) then we suddenly have much more passing, ball-handling, and defending in the line up.

      I just hope he can be the ball-dominant distributor these guys need, even a Felton level type would be fine. I don’t want him starting only to have him cross half court and hand it off to Melo the way Toney D. had been doing.

    25. Another big concern that was highlighted in the Nugget game: Once Chandler fouled out we had no chance of securing a rebound. Nuggets were all over us on the offensive board. What does Amare give us? He’s as lost as Landry became once Melo started his one-on-five show.

      Today, the national media (CBS and ESPN) has really gripped on to the story that Melo and Amare don’t work. Let’s say we become better with Baron Davis – but better only gets to be a .500 team. Then what? What the hell is the next step?

    26. Today, the national media (CBS and ESPN) has really gripped on to the story that Melo and Amare don’t work. Let’s say we become better with Baron Davis – but better only gets to be a .500 team. Then what? What the hell is the next step?

      Steve Nash for the mid-level.

    27. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin):
      The Davis one seems reasonable to me. The guy is a legit passing point guard. If he can’t do anything with this team, then yeah, things are just broken. But I think it’s fair enough to want to wait to see him first give it a shot.

      Although, yeah, I personally would make a deal for D-Will and a player for Melo before waiting for Baron Davis, but I can understand wanting to wait.

      He has a career 36% assist rate! And he’s been passing more as he’s gotten older.

      No he’s not a legit passing point guard. BD is a shoot first PG that sometimes makes beautiful passes.
      BD is already salivating at the shots he’s going to take away from Melo. Amare may never see the ball again, ever. Great education for Shump…he already has shoot first tendencies.

      Then they’ll blame losing on not having a 3pt specialist.

      The ship be sinking

    28. PC:
      Another big concern that was highlighted in the Nugget game: Once Chandler fouled out we had no chance of securing a rebound. Nuggets were all over us on the offensive board. What does Amare give us? He’s as lost as Landry became once Melo started his one-on-five show.

      Today, the national media (CBS and ESPN) has really gripped on to the story that Melo and Amare don’t work. Let’s say we become better with Baron Davis – but better only gets to be a .500 team. Then what? What the hell is the next step?

      that will likely happen (~ a .500 team w/bd) and there is no next step other than the fantasy a great player is going to accept the mle next year.

      and for all those with onanistic thoughts about steve nash riding in on his white horse, just think about this for a moment….. why wouldn’t he accept miami’s mle next year and play with le bron, wade and bosh (a far better combo than amar’e, chandler and
      melo) rather than the knicks??????

      there is only the great oz behind the curtain……..

    29. Watching the Wizards play the Celtics without Rondo and Ray Allen. I am just noticing the significance of an actual offensive system, getting a good shot and player movement. Doc Rivers is a great coach because you can see it on the floor. Marquis Daniels and Avery Bradley are the guards at the moment, yet they continue to get good look after good look. Yes this is the Wizards defense, which is not much resistance, but there is something to be said about a coach who establishes a team identity and never deviates from it, regardless who is in or out of the game. Paul Pierce is a poor mans Melo at this stage of his career, but he has seven assists in large part because of the movement of the offense. Open shots are the best shots, and when NBA level players arent knocking them down, the team can look “turrible Kenny, just turrible”

    30. hoolahoop: Is that the same National Media that demanded this trade happen at any cost? Another overpaid bunch.

      anyone speak with the oracle stephen a smith lately? is he still making fun of resisting sending d-a-n-i-l-l-o g-a-l-l-i-n-e-r-i and t-i-m-o-f-e-y m-o-s-g-o-v (said dripping with condescension)? donnie walsh… “you’ve got to have melo”!!!

    31. @29
      The Baron Davis career speaks for itself. He has generally been the best offensive player on his teams, look it up, and has made one dimensional players look much better. To say he is not a legit passer is to say Peja wasn’t a legit shooter, seriously.

      The Knicks are still in trouble if there is no ball movement. BD can’t pass to guys who are glued to their defenders and aside from Mr. Landry Fields and Mr. Jared Jeffries, NOBODY on this team cuts to the basket. We need movement of players, which promotes movement of the ball. It’s painfully obvious this offense is killed by the stagnancy. Melo is to blame, in addition to MDA, and the players who would rather park outside the 3 line than move around and become a target for a pass.

    32. But if he essentially replaces Fields as a starter (slide Shump over to shooting guard) then we suddenly have much more passing, ball-handling, and defending in the line up.

      I think Shump will move to the bench. Shump might close out games instead of Fields, but I’m pretty sure Fields will remain in the starting lineup. After all, Fields is right up there with Amar’e in terms of guys who respond well to ball movement.

    33. This is why a decent, good, or great PG is not the answer. As soon as the guard brings the ball up, Melo runs over and crowds the guard demanding the ball. He converges on his own teammates like a defender to get the ball. Then, because he’s best at creating his own shot in the “no ball movement, stand around offense”, which he orchestrated, all players just look to give him the ball.
      At the end of the game last night TD had the ball and was trying to pass to Melo who was being draped with defenders. TD dribbled away and turned right back to Melo to give him the ball in terrible position.TD you moron, there are other players on the the team. Who’s running this team.

    34. Is that the same National Media that demanded this trade happen at any cost? Another overpaid bunch.

      Pretty sure you meant to respond to someone else, right?

      Anyhow, as for the national media, they’ve already gotten their two scapegoats to explain why the Melo deal did not have the results they predicted.

      Scapegoat #1 – D’Antoni. Smith was blaming D’Antoni already last year

      and when/if D’Antoni gets fired, it will be…

      Scapegoat #2 – His teammates are just so bad. The deal made sense, but the Knicks somehow managed to pick the worst supporting players ever, so there was nothing Melo could do.

    35. bobneptune: anyone speak with the oracle stephen a smith lately? is he still making fun of resisting sending d-a-n-i-l-l-og-a-l-l-i-n-e-r-i and t-i-m-o-f-e-ym-o-s-g-o-v (said dripping with condescension)? donnie walsh… “you’ve got to have melo”!!!

      I think about that all the time. He championed this trade for “WHATEVER IT TAKES. GET IT DONE”.

    36. and for all those with onanistic thoughts about steve nash riding in on his white horse, just think about this for a moment….. why wouldn’t he accept miami’s mle next year and play with le bron, wade and bosh (a far better combo than amar’e, chandler and
      melo) rather than the knicks??????

      Simple enough – Miami does not have a MLE next season.

    37. A Voice of Reason: The Baron Davis career speaks for itself. He has generally been the best offensive player on his teams, look it up, and has made one dimensional players look much better. To say he is not a legit passer is to say Peja wasn’t a legit shooter, seriously.

      BD is a shoot first PG.

    38. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin): Pretty sure you meant to respond to someone else, right?

      Anyhow, as for the national media, they’ve already gotten their two scapegoats to explain why the Melo deal did not have the results they predicted.

      Scapegoat #1 – D’Antoni. Smith was blaming D’Antoni already last year

      and when/if D’Antoni gets fired, it will be…

      Scapegoat #2 – His teammates are just so bad. The deal made sense, but the Knicks somehow managed to pick the worst supporting players ever, so there was nothing Melo could deal.

      Just mocking the media in this phoney world we live in. Nothing againsst you, my knick brother.

    39. Oh no, I get that. I just mean that you did not mean to reply to my post. I mentioned Nash and then you replied about the national media, which someone else had mentioned. So I think you meant to reply to them.

    40. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin): I think Shump will move to the bench. Shump might close out games instead of Fields, but I’m pretty sure Fields will remain in the starting lineup. After all, Fields is right up there with Amar’e in terms of guys who respond well to ball movement.

      Perhaps, but Shump’s numbers are way better at sg than at pg (18 PER vs. 5 PER) for what that’s worth. Regardless of who’s starting, moving most of Shump’s minutes to sg will be helpful as well.

    41. Perhaps, but Shump’s numbers are way better at sg than at pg (18 PER vs. 5 PER) for what that’s worth. Regardless of who’s starting, moving most of Shump’s minutes to sg will be helpful as well.

      My guess is that Shump and Toney will be a tandem in the second unit, with Shump closing the game out with Davis (with Fields in the mix depending on how he’s playing).

    42. Spree8:
      The booing isn’t helping the team get better at all! In fact, I think a large part of the reason why the team is in this offensive funk is due to the extensive booing at the garden..

      Or, maybe it’s Clyde Frazier’s fault. He’s so critical during the telecasts. I think that’s it.

    43. I could have sworn that I heard chants of “move/pass the ball” whenever Melo caught the ball in the 4th.

      @46

      I’m glad that Breen and Clyde are critical of the Knicks. I heard the Boston commentators once and the bias was so ridiculous.

    44. I like that Breen and Clyde are critical, but they can also just get into these ruts of critical thinking where they just latch on to an idea and just repeat it constantly, whether it applies or not. And Breen tends to patronize the hell out of the players (I still get irked at him calling Walker “Billy” when no one else ever calls him that, including Walker himself).

      And great line about our old posting pal, Z!

    45. Had that pass been made by Eli, Aaron, Tom, hell, even Sanchez, it would have been a touchdown.

    46. Right now there is ZERO dribble penetration, so we are an excruciatingly easy team to defend. Dribble penetration causes defenses to break down and at the very least should create some better opportunities for Amar’e.

      If nothing else, Baron’s arrival will end the “point forward” nightmare and get the ball out of Melo’s hands. Melo is by nature a ball-stopping type of player but this whole “point forward” nonsense has just exacerbated those tendencies. The coaches are asking him to be the primary ballhandler, and big surprise, he’s bad at it.

    47. Right now there is ZERO dribble penetration, so we are an excruciatingly easy team to defend. Dribble penetration causes defenses to break down and at the very least should create some better opportunities for Amar’e.

      While watching Lawson drive to the basket for the game-clinching assist, it did occur to me that the Knicks haven’t had a guy like that since…Rod Strickland, maybe? Even Marbury at his peak wasn’t a player like that. It is true that there are not a lot of players like that out there, but damn, it’d be nice if the Knicks had saved some of their millions of cap space for one of them.

    48. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin):
      And yes, if Melo won’t change his game or if Davis won’t agree to be a distributor, it will not work. But those are criticisms to be held for when that actually happens. Not now.

      hasn’t “it” been happening with melo for 35-40 games so far???

    49. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin): While watching Lawson drive to the basket for the game-clinching assist, it did occur to me that the Knicks haven’t had a guy like that since…Rod Strickland, maybe? Even Marbury at his peak wasn’t a player like that. It is true that there are not a lot of players like that out there, but damn, it’d be nice if the Knicks had saved some of their millions of cap space for one of them.

      they swapped that possibility for tyson (the most efficient offensive player in the universe that scores 8 whole points per game) chandler

    50. Chandler is certainly not a great offensive player, but he provides incredible defense from the center position while being useful on offense. That’s a premium asset in this league, even if we might have been better in the short term keeping Chauncey. You simply don’t win games without legit big men like Chandler. You’re better off trying to win with size than with even a super star, especially considering how few options there are in today’s NBA.

    51. How are you not satisfied with how Tyson Chandler has played? He is our best player by far right now and certainly out-playing the 2 players beside him making 20 million a year. I just don’t see how Tyson could help this team more than he is now. Certainly more than Ty Lawson would.

      bobneptune: they swapped that possibility for tyson (the most efficient offensive player in the universe that scores 8 whole points per game) chandler

    52. Wow !! Every Knick fan needs to listen to this Stephen A. Smith rant. I am not the biggest SAS fan in the world. But in this podcast, he goes absolutely apeshit on our Knicks!! He is screaming and ranting and raving like a maniac. He is definitely feeling our frustrations and definitely makes it crystal clear.

      http://espn.go.com/espnradio/newyork/play?id=7490472

    53. JK47:
      Right now there is ZERO dribble penetration, so we are an excruciatingly easy team to defend.Dribble penetration causes defenses to break down and at the very least should create some better opportunities for Amar’e.

      That’s a great point. Even Felton, as limited as he was. managed to break down the defense and set up other players. (Of course, they used to actually make open 3’s back in the day)
      If nothing else, Baron’s arrival will end the “point forward” nightmare and get the ball out of Melo’s hands.Melo is by nature a ball-stopping type of player but this whole “point forward” nonsense has just exacerbated those tendencies.The coaches are asking him to be the primary ballhandler, and big surprise, he’s bad at it.

    54. JK47:
      Right now there is ZERO dribble penetration, so we are an excruciatingly easy team to defend.Dribble penetration causes defenses to break down and at the very least should create some better opportunities for Amar’e.

      If nothing else, Baron’s arrival will end the “point forward” nightmare and get the ball out of Melo’s hands.Melo is by nature a ball-stopping type of player but this whole “point forward” nonsense has just exacerbated those tendencies.The coaches are asking him to be the primary ballhandler, and big surprise, he’s bad at it.

      That’s a great point. Even Felton, as limited as he was, managed to break down defenses fairly regularly and find open shooters. (of course, they used to make open 3’s back in the day)

    55. re: Stephen A. Smith

      Stephen A.: “I don’t know what to say! I don’t know what to say!”

      My response: Just admit you were wrong for pushing for the trade.

      Stephen A.: “[The Magic] have inquired about Tyson Chandler and Amare Stoudemire going to Orlando for Dwight Howard… What I see is a guy [Amare] who is not happy about being on the floor with Carmelo Anthony. I’m keeping Melo personally. Cuz I believe in closers.”

      My response: So guys who like to take tough shots, like Jamal Crawford, and Ben Gordon, who hog the ball and make difficult shots, but more importantly take a ton of bad shots, are the key to victory? You just saluted the Mavs, who do the exact opposite. How many teams have won with a wing player and no interior threat? BIG GUYS NEED HELP. THEY NEED SOMEONE TO GET THEM THE BALL in a position to score. Gasol would suck if the Lakers gave him the ball 20 feet away. Dwight Howard is not so great at dribble penetration.

      I truly hope that the knicks do everything that Stephen A. wants and just to see what lengths he’ll go to to avoid admitting he’s wrong.

      Anthony is what he is: A high volume scorer who takes a lot of bad shots. He’s a star player, but he’s not a superstar, top 5, or even top 10 player. He’s somewhere slightly better than guys like Jamal Mashburn, Jerry Stackhouse, Jalen Rose, Antoine Walker, Glenn Robinson… The list goes on. A good parallel for him is Vince Carter. He makes a ton of highlight plays, is a decent passer, but doesn’t play enough defense and doesn’t really respect the game and his teammates the way gamechanging superstars do. Carter helped a lot of teams win games in his prime, but he was always overrated due to his flashy play and gaudy scoring numbers.

    56. EwOakStarksMase:
      Wow !! Every Knick fan needs to listen to this Stephen A. Smith rant. In this podcast, he goes absolutely apeshit on our Knicks!! He is screaming and ranting and raving like a maniac. He is definitely feeling our frustrations and definitely makes it crystal clear.

      http://espn.go.com/espnradio/newyork/play?id=7490472

      You mean the same Stephen A. Smith that had this to say, just 11 months ago:

      “I’m getting really annoyed walking around listening to New Yorkers, listening to people on this very radio station, acting like if we don’t get Carmelo Anthony it’s not a big deal. It’s a big damn deal. So much so that if February 24th comes and goes, I will personally be calling for people’s heads – by name. And I’m dead serious.

      And in case you didn’t notice I got the credentials to do it. Not because I’m an NBA insider, not even because I’ve been covering the NBA for 14 years, not because I’ve been a journalist for 18 years. It’s because I’m born and raised in this city. This is home. And I don’t like what the hell I’m seeing. And if nobody else wants to have the guts to call folks out for their behinds, if not their heads, then damnit, I’ll do it for ’em. February 24th. Let that day come and go and Carmelo Anthony is not in a New York Knicks uniform. You don’t even want to tune into this show the next day. I’m telling you…

      Danilo Gallinari is good, with promise, but hardly worth holding on to if it means not getting Anthony’s services.”

      Why this guy is given a microphone is beyond me. It’s even dumber than giving Carmelo a max contract.

    57. Oh yeah, he is a HUMONGOUS hypocrite in the WORST way! Believe me, I only posted his link for entertainment purposes.

    58. twoseam2007:
      Question – If we fire D’antoni, would Phil Jackson be willing to take over midseason?

      I get down on my hands and knees and pray for that every night. But unless Phil is totally bored out of his mind or looking for the greatest challenge in his life, I cannot imagine any rational and successful coach like him getting involved in this disgusting circus!

    59. Milwaukee is beating the Heat at Miami… if only Skiles had some decent offensive players, their defense is incredible.

    60. twoseam2007:
      Question – If we fire D’antoni, would Phil Jackson be willing to take over midseason?

      If this roster of geniuses can’t figure out SSOL without a training camp and extended preseason, no way will they be able to just pick up the triangle. We’re better off with Melo as player/coach/GM/trainer than Phil midseason

    61. Phil said he will not take another coach’s job this season. I have no doubts the team would pick up the triangle easier than SSOL.

      The fact we have STAT, Chandler, Fields and Melo guys known to get offensive boards and still think jettisoning the ball from 3 is a good offensive strategy proves it.

      All jokes aside, as hypocritical as it may sound, I have faith in D’Antoni. When he has the roster healthy and confident we will surprise some teams.

      I’ve already said Jackson is the ideal fit in a previous post; and while Carmelo may not be Jordan, we still have the talent to be an efficient team.

      I love D’Antoni but see him succeeding in a city less demanding than NY. I mean Mike never had a stable roster until now.

      I know other coaches have dealt with injuries and what have you, but D’Antoni had to deal with players in their last contract years, key pieces being traded during winning streaks, Stephon Marbury.

      I want to see D’Antoni coaching a team like Washington next year a team full of potential and raw athleticism.

    62. I see D’Antoni succeeding when his owner doesn’t sabotage him.

      Awesome win for the Giants but a good Knicks team in New York would mean far more…

    63. EwOakStarksMase:
      Wow !! Every Knick fan needs to listen to this Stephen A. Smith rant. I am not the biggest SAS fan in the world. But in this podcast, he goes absolutely apeshit on our Knicks!! He is screaming and ranting and raving like a maniac. He is definitely feeling our frustrations and definitely makes it crystal clear.

      http://espn.go.com/espnradio/newyork/play?id=7490472

      Thanks for the link.
      Steph A Smith is an idiot. He blamed Amare, Dantoni, the PG’s, Woodson, and literally said everyone has to go but Melo. But he yelled it so he must be right.

    64. Who would you guys rather have coaching the Knicks next season, Phil Jackson or D’Antoni if Steve Nash signs for the mid-level??

    65. Who would you guys rather have coaching the Knicks next season, Phil Jackson or D’Antoni if Steve Nash signs for the mid-level??

      I guess I’d have to see Melo plays with Davis first. If Melo is going to sabotage any point guard they get, then the former. If he can play with a real point guard, then the latter.

    66. they swapped that possibility for tyson (the most efficient offensive player in the universe that scores 8 whole points per game) chandler

      No, they didn’t. They got Chandler because they couldn’t get Chris Paul. If they could have gotten Chris Paul, they would not have signed Chandler. There are not any other point guards like Paul out there (except D-Will, but the Knicks reasonably had to make decisions based on the presumption that he’d re-sign with the Nets).

      That said, as others have mentioned, it continues to be weird how you are failing to see how awesome Tyson Chandler is and has been for the Knicks this year.

    67. What made Phil Jackson a great coach was that he was a great manipulator of people. He knew how to pressure guys with big egos into changing their ways. He’d use whatever means necessary, including the press, to get guys to play in a way that was best for the team. Remember though, blabbing to the press is what got Larry Brown fired. And anyway, the guy who needs to have his ego put in check more than anyone is our owner. Maybe we could get a kickstarter going to hire Jackson to be Dolan’s shrink.

      I do feel like Jackson seemed to lose interest last season. I don’t know if he has the energy anymore to be a great coach. But maybe a new challenge would revitalize him.

    68. Brian Cronin (@Brian_Cronin): No, they didn’t. They got Chandler because they couldn’t get Chris Paul. If they could have gotten Chris Paul, they would not have signed Chandler. There are not any other point guards like Paul out there (except D-Will, but the Knicks reasonably had to make decisions based on the presumption that he’d re-sign with the Nets).

      That said, as others have mentioned, it continues to be weird how you are failing to see how awesome Tyson Chandler is and has been for the Knicks this year.

      hi brian,

      i believe you misunderstood what i said , or maybe i wasn’t clear. they swapped the possibility of future flexibility in a panic move by overpaying grossly for chandler when they realized their fantasy of getting cp3 was impossible after they traded away all their assets for melo.

      where they loiving under the delusion the league was going to allow cp3 to walk at the end of the year for nothing? they certainly didn’t have the assets to trade for cp3 so that was a pure fantasy.

      they had 2 options:

      1… stand pat with billups coming off a knee injury and way past his prime to play the point and have the 3 headed monster of the pharoh and the unproven jorts and jerome jordan man the 5 and suck this year waiting for the end of the season to find a 3rd quazi star or:

      2…. panic and over pay a complementary player 14 million a year and hope either td, a rookie who is really an athletic 2 (shump) and either some skel the will take the mini 2.5 M exception or a waived player to man the point. in true knick style they paid a guy 14 M a year for ever to score 8 pts a game while eating 36 minutes a game.

      well played knicks.

    69. But BobNeptune, what would they have done with that money? Amare has like a 4 year window, optimistically. Fields expires at the end of the season, and assuming he gets out the doldrums, he’s a $5 million/year or so player. Anthony and STAT’s contracts both go up by about a million a year. That’s $7 million fewer dollars out of the $13 the knicks had. Who are you going to sign for that? Eric Maynor? And if they don’t re-sign Fields, they have no shooting guard.

      The best point guard available this past summer was Rodney Stuckey, who was vastly overpaid (3yrs, $25 million) by the pistons and is not much of a better passer than Douglas.

      The fact is they had to spend their money this year. Really, they should have spent it in the summer of 2010, when Chandler and Gallo were both still on rookie deals, but Eddy Curry’s awful contract prevented them from building a complete team then.

      If they had been able to move curry’s expiring deal for a serviceable player (maybe Elton Brand?), they would have been a much better team in 2010/2011 and there wouldn’t have been so much pressure to trade for Anthony. If instead of 28-26 at the All-Star Break, the Knicks were 34-20, there’s no way we would have broken up that core.

      The NBA is built so that you have a time limit. Build a good team with lots of young guys on rookie deals. Before those guys’ rookie deals expire, spend all your cap money, and when the rookies need new deals, you can resign them with bird rights.

    70. Chandler is easily worth 14 million a year. Center is the hardest position to fill in the NBA and we have a top 5 center. The fact that Amare and Melo are both making 5 million more a year is more of a joke than Chandler’s contract, especially considering they play positions that are easy to fill. The fact that Tyson only scores 9 points a game doesn’t matter because we did not sign him to score points we signed him to play defense which is half of basketball.

      If I was building a team from scratch I would take Tyson as my first piece before Melo or Amare and it’s not even a hard choice. Tyson makes every team better, Amare is usless if not on a team built to fit him and is seriously on the downslide and Melo needs the ball all the time to be effective. Plus neither play defense very well.

    71. WS/48

      1. LeBron James-MIA .357
      2. Ryan Anderson-ORL .286
      3. Paul Millsap-UTA .259
      4. James Harden-OKC .248
      5. Derrick Rose-CHI .243
      6. Louis Williams-PHI .243
      7. Tyson Chandler-NYK .229
      8. Marc Gasol-MEM .218
      9. Kevin Love-MIN .215
      10. Danilo Gallinari-DEN

      So either bobneptune has some sort of secret knowledge of value or all of the statistics that say Chandler’s a top 3 center are wrong. Who ya got?

    72. Will the Thrill:
      How are you not satisfied with how Tyson Chandler has played? He is our best player by far right now and certainly out-playing the 2 players beside him making 20 million a year. I just don’t see how Tyson could help this team more than he is now.Certainly more than Ty Lawson would.

      will,

      i am perfectly satisfied how chandler is playing. he is playing as advertised, perfectly within his limited skill set. he is certainly playing better than melo and amar’e, without question, but that is certainly damning him with faint praise.

      the problem with chandler is he is such a zero threat on the offensive end, the guy supposedly “guarding” him gets to play free safety and help all around the painted area clogging driving areas making your teams ability to run an offense effectively.

      paying chandler 14 million a year (all the knicks remaining cap space, removing any possible flexibility moving forward and fully 25% of the cap) is lunacy, imo.

      that doesn’t make chandler a bad guy or a bad player…. it just makes him a high end samuel dalembert for double the price and double the length of contract.

    73. bobneptune – Paying Chandler 14 million wouldn’t be an issue if weren’t already overpaying Amare and Melo. I think the reason people are surprised about what you’re saying is we have possibly the worst contract in the NBA in Amare and an overpaid “superstar” in Melo and your criticizing the one player who might actually be worth his contract.

      Even if Chandler is only worth 10 million or 12 million he is extremely hard to replace and gives us the defensive center we’ve been craving since we moved Camby. It is worth overpaying a center or a point guard because they are hard to replace, the bad move is overpaying a wing or PF because ultimately unless they are LeBron or Jordan or Dirk they are easy to replace at 90% of the output for 50% of the money.

    74. The Honorable Cock Jowles:
      WS/48

      1.LeBron James-MIA.357
      2.Ryan Anderson-ORL.286
      3.Paul Millsap-UTA.259
      4.James Harden-OKC.248
      5.Derrick Rose-CHI.243
      6.Louis Williams-PHI.243
      7.Tyson Chandler-NYK.229
      8.Marc Gasol-MEM.218
      9.Kevin Love-MIN.215
      10.Danilo Gallinari-DEN

      So either bobneptune has some sort of secret knowledge of value or all of the statistics that say Chandler’s a top 3 center are wrong. Who ya got?

      6-10

      your beloved stat has tyson chandler rated higher than scottie pippen and john havlicek and easy ed macauley rated higher than bill fricking russell lifetime.

      i’m convinced!

      but i have an open mind and am willing to learn. lou williams and tyson chandler are the 6th and 7th what in the nba this season?

    75. The Honorable Cock Jowles:
      WS/48

      1.LeBron James-MIA.357
      2.Ryan Anderson-ORL.286
      3.Paul Millsap-UTA.259
      4.James Harden-OKC.248
      5.Derrick Rose-CHI.243
      6.Louis Williams-PHI.243
      7.Tyson Chandler-NYK.229
      8.Marc Gasol-MEM.218
      9.Kevin Love-MIN.215
      10.Danilo Gallinari-DEN

      So either bobneptune has some sort of secret knowledge of value or all of the statistics that say Chandler’s a top 3 center are wrong. Who ya got?

      your stat says chandler is the top center in the league. if it is so important and so accurate, call orlando and see if they will trade you howard, or la and ask to swap heads up for bynum or gasol or denver and ask for nene or ask atlanta for al horford.

      they should all be dying to swap, no????

      and just for grins, shouldn’t the paper clips be beating down the door to swap cp3 for lou williams???

    76. There’s a reason why very good but not superstar players like Michael Redd, Gilbert Arenas, Rashard Lewis, Joe Johnson, Amare Stoudemire, Carmelo Anthony, Chris Bosh, Baron Davis…. etc. Got max deals.

      The fact is you almost always overpay for free agents because there is a dearth of their value is artificially raised by the max salary and the rookie scale.

      Without the max salary, Lebron would probably get $35 million a year. Wade would get $25 million. Likewise, because htey’re locked into minimal deals for 4 years, guys on rookie deals are as a group greatly underpaid.

      What’s left is a very limited selection of guys and lot of teams with money to spend. It’s not a buyer’s market.

    77. latke: Anthony is what he is: A high volume scorer who takes a lot of bad shots. He’s a star player, but he’s not a superstar, top 5, or even top 10 player. He’s somewhere slightly better than guys like Jamal Mashburn, Jerry Stackhouse, Jalen Rose, Antoine Walker, Glenn Robinson… The list goes on. A good parallel for him is Vince Carter. He makes a ton of highlight plays, is a decent passer, but doesn’t play enough defense and doesn’t really respect the game and his teammates the way gamechanging superstars do. Carter helped a lot of teams win games in his prime, but he was always overrated due to his flashy play and gaudy scoring numbers.

        

      I think a lot of those guys are very good comps for Melo. Everyone looks back now and realises that those guys were basically losers who scored a ton of empty points while doing nothing to help their teams win games, but all these guys were lottery picks who got maxed out and most of them made at least one all star game and were definitely considered “stars” at one point or another.

      I wouldn’t take Melo over Carter either. Just because Bill Simmons hates him doesn’t mean he sucks. The last couple of years have been rough to him, but he’s old and he was a genuine star in his prime. His 2000 and 2001 seasons are light years ahead of anything Melo’s ever done. Carter wasn’t just a “gaudy scorer”, he could (and did) pass and despite his “no defense” rep, he was at least average on that end of the court and significantly better than Melo.

    78. The problem with stats like win shares and PER are people who treat them like gospel. I like them and I think they do a great job providing us with a quick means of comparison, but they are by no means a flawless ranking system.

      I think the list THCJ posted is a great summary of who has played well to start the season, but I don’t think it serves as a list of who the 10 best players in the NBA right now.

      Also, can people stop talking about Phil Jackson coaching the Knicks? Wilbon and Shaq are the only people that I can recall saying it was a possibility, and how would they know? They wouldn’t. Jackson spent his last year in the NBA talking about how he had no desire to continue coaching and even that year was just him going through the motions, he wanted to retire but gave in when the front office, Kobe and Fisher put in a lot of effort to convince him to come back. Two days ago came out and said very plainly “I have no desire to coach.” Why are people talking about it like it’s a reasonable option?

    79. Ben R:
      bobneptune – Paying Chandler 14 million wouldn’t be an issue if weren’t already overpaying Amare and Melo.

      sure it would. overpaying anyone grossly limits your ability to fill out your roster with capable players. just because you overpaid for a chucker like carmelo, why does that mean it is fine to continue to overpay for players? that’s how we ended up with curry, jerome jordan, jared jefferies and jamal crawford.

      i trained standardbreds at the meadowlands before i retired. if i made a habit of paying 250k for horses that were value buys for 150k, i wouldn’t have lasted 30 years.

      and what makes you so sure amar’e is overpaid? he is certainly not effective today as the square peg trying to fit into a round hole. last season in the correct system that was put together by walsh, amar’e (with a competent point guard and surrounded by shooters, without a black hole ball stopping hog opposite him) was a top player, well worth his pay.

    80. bobneptune: and what makes you so sure amar’e is overpaid? he is certainly not effective today as the square peg trying to fit into a round hole.last season in the correct system that was put together by walsh, amar’e (with a competent point guard and surrounded by shooters, without a black hole ball stopping hog opposite him) was a top player, well worth his pay.

      First off, if Chandler is overpaid it is by what 2-4 million a year which for a center in a seller’s market is not that much. Dalembert the player you just compared Chandler to at age 29 made 13 million dollars. It’s not like we paid Chandler a lot more than he was worth, even conservatively Chandler is worth what 10-11 million a year so paying 14 million isn’t grossly out of line and considering the alternative was Turiaf and Harrellson locking down an elite center even at possibly a little more than he was worth was a good move.

      Secondly Amare is grossly overpaid and was grossly overpaid last year, he is a truly poor defender, like Eddy Curry bad, which was forgivable when he was shooting at over 60% TS% but even last year at 56% his value overall was not great. If he is not absolutely dominant at the offensive end he gives so much back defensively that I question if he is even a positive some of the time. Nash and a perfect system were the reason he was a star and he missed an entire season and the Suns still won their division. At this point I would rather have David Lee at any price than Amare, hell right now we were better with Harrellson on the court.

    81. What made Amar’e a better player than even Melo last year? The fact that he led a scrappy Knicks team to .500, which is considered relevancy in the east? If you had transported the Knicks to the west Amar’e would have been destroyed for being outside of the playoffs while playing no defense and upping his iso’s to the highest percentage of his career. Chandler might be a tad overpaid, but you overpay for a valuable commodity like a legit defensive 7 footer. The problem with Melo isn’t so much that he he’s overpaid as that he isn’t underpaid. As someone said earlier, Lebron and Howard are realistically worth around $30-35 million a year easy. Carmelo is actually worth around what his contract pays, I know people think max and think “only top 5 player superstar” but that’s just not how NBA economics work, not in a world where Joe Johnson, Rudy Gay, Zach Randolph, and Marc Gasol (yea the Grizzlies are screwed) all have max contracts and players like Luol Deng get played 11 million.

    82. That ideal salary system will never work in the NBA though. Correct me if I’m wrong but the biggest factor coming in from the lockout where the differences in wallet size and mindset between the large markets and the small markets. I’m fairly certain that if the NBA was like the MLB, Dolan and Cuban would have no problem pulling a Steinbrenner where money is really no obstacle.

    83. “Owen, what do you mean about the Giants?”

      What I mean is that I think having a championship caliber Knicks team would generate an order of magnitude greater level excitement in NYC than the Giants. I can still remember the buzz around the Riley Knicks so well. Would just be so amazing for the city….

      BobNeptune – Your arguments remind me a lot of a guy who used to post here and loved horses too.

    84. Juany8: Rudy Gay, Zach Randolph, and Marc Gasol (yea the Grizzlies are screwed) all have max contracts

      If Cuban owned the Grizzlies, the current configuration would mean they’re contender for years to come. Only Zach Randolph in untradeable (due to age and personality issues). The other contracts are manageable, and you can easily trade some of them for other players. The Grizzlies are screwed just because they don’t have money to add to their core and their bench is thin right now. (Should they have drafted Rubio and let Conley walk, they would be in a really great situation now, with some money to use before reaching luxury tax)

    85. Ben R: First off, if Chandler is overpaid it is by what 2-4 million a year which for a center in a seller’s market is not that much. Dalembert the player you just compared Chandler to at age 29 made 13 million dollars.

      dalembert last year was grossly overpaid last year @ 13 M. this year when he is 30, his 7 M salary accurately reflects his ability. chandler, to use your test will be paid average of 14 M @ 30, 31, and 32, wildly overpaid for what he brings to the table on a nightly basis.

      and fwiw, if you didn’t think amar’e earned his money before the melo trade last year, i don’t know what to tell you. besides being 2nd team all- nba…… he did something very difficult…… he made them relevant for the first time in over a decade. not only that….. he made them a destination for other players. that, in and of it self was a sisyphean task.

    86. Owen:
      “Owen, what do you mean about the Giants?”

      What I mean is that I think having a championship caliber Knicks team would generate an order of magnitude greater level excitement in NYC than the Giants. I can still remember the buzz around the Riley Knicks so well. Would just be so amazing for the city….

      BobNeptune – Your arguments remind me a lot of a guy who used to post here and loved horses too.

      i don’t know of whom you speak, but i can say with metaphysical certitude i’ve only posted on this board as bobneptune. my corporate name in the racing business was neptune stable inc. my actual name is luca derrico and i trained horses at yonkers, rosevelt raceway and the meadowlands primarily from 1976-2006.

      i hope that clears up whatever misgivings about my identity you might have.

      or as mel allen used to say….” and you can look it up!”

    Comments are closed.