Knicks Morning News (Saturday, Jul 07 2012)

  • [New York Times] On Pro Basketball: Knicks Should Match Lin’s Offer, but Don’t Exactly Know His Value (Sat, 07 Jul 2012 06:10:04 GMT)

    The Knicks are expected to match an offer from Houston and keep Jeremy Lin, but even after examining him closely, they are still uncertain about his place in the league.

  • [New York Times] Nets’ Williams Was Swayed to Stay by Johnson Trade (Sat, 07 Jul 2012 05:10:05 GMT)

    Deron Williams said that for quite some time he thought he was going to leave for the Mavericks, but he decided to return after the Nets traded for Joe Johnson.

  • [New York Times] Ray Allen to Take a Pay Cut to Join the Miami Heat (Sat, 07 Jul 2012 05:09:07 GMT)

    Ray Allen told the Miami Heat on Friday night that he intended to accept their contract offer and leave Boston after five seasons.

  • [New York Times] Sports Briefing | Basketball: Nigeria Upsets Greece in Olympic Basketball Qualifier (Sat, 07 Jul 2012 05:20:11 GMT)

    Nigeria eliminated heavily favored Greece to advance to the semifinals of the Olympic basketball qualifying tournament in Caracas, Venezuela.

  • [New York Times] 76ers Use Amnesty Clause and Waive Elton Brand (Sat, 07 Jul 2012 06:07:31 GMT)

    The Philadelphia 76ers have used the amnesty clause on the veteran forward Elton Brand and will get about $18 million in salary cap relief for next season.

  • [New York Times] Riff: LeBron James Is a Sack of Melons (Sat, 07 Jul 2012 04:15:08 GMT)

    Evaluating the historical impact of perhaps the greatest, and weirdest, basketball player ever.

  • [New York Times] Allen to Leave Boston for Miami (Sat, 07 Jul 2012 03:27:32 GMT)

    The NBA champion Miami Heat are set to bolster their blockbuster roster with the signing of three-point king Ray Allen from the Boston Celtics.

  • [New York Times] Allen Chooses to Sign With Miami Heat (Sat, 07 Jul 2012 03:12:36 GMT)

    Ray Allen will take less money for a chance at another NBA championship.

  • [New York Daily News] Nash’s decision ruins Melo mood (Sat, 07 Jul 2012 02:30:26 GMT)

    Carmelo Anthony was convinced that the Hall of Fame point guard who was about to join him in New York would be Steve Nash and not Jason Kidd.

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    Mike Kurylo is the founder and editor of KnickerBlogger.net. His book on the 2012 Knicks, "We’ll Always Have Linsanity," is on sale now. Follow him on twitter (@KnickerBlogger).

    117 thoughts to “Knicks Morning News (Saturday, Jul 07 2012)”

    1. From the previous thread.

      To diehardknickerbocker,

      Please don’t post like this.

      “CHRISTMAS GAMES: BROOKLYN GOES TO THE GARDEN TO MEET MELO N CREW RAY ALLEN N JASON TERRY DUKE IT OUT IN SOUTH BEACH LAKERS TEST OUT THEY NEW TOY IN LOB CITY( ODOMS REVENGE) N LAST BUT NOT LEAST ITS THE YOUNG NOT SO BIG FRANCHISE AGAINST THE OLD NOT SO BIG FRANCHISE 1-4 WHO’S WINS”

      This isn’t twitter and please don’t use caps for everything.

    2. So the ideal “possible” playoff rotation looks like this:

      Starters:
      Melo
      Amare
      Chandler
      Lin
      Shumpert

      Bench:
      Kidd
      Camby
      JR
      Novak

      Seems like Prigioni would be excellent insurance…a big PG who can slide to SG in case Shump doesn’t recover quickly enough, or Kidd or Lin regress or get injured. White will back up as an athletic wing. Then I hope we keep either Jordan or Jorts as roster filler.

    3. If it took the extra dough to get Camby, I would skip Prigioni. I hope that doesn’t become a stumbling block. Camby going to the Heat is just too much for me this morning. Really hope it doesn’t happen.

    4. Some team or another is going to get an absolute steal with Jerrrrryyyyd (I think that’s a rough approximation of how it’s spelled) Bayless. He’s a super athletic combo guard that hasn’t developed either the 1 or 2 skills to fit on a non contender. However, as an 8-10 guy on a good team i think he’s a huge value add. Throw in Kidds tutelage and our desperate need for backcourt athleticism and I love him for us at a minimum deal.

    5. Agreed. I think Prigioni is available for the vet’s minimum?

      Looking at the above roster, the SG position worries me most. It would be less of a concern if Amare starts sticking the 15-18 footer again. But if Shump is slow to recover and doesn’t improve his shooting, that will hurt us if we have nobody else (assuming Fields and TD are gone; TD would probably be used in a S&T for Camby, if not Kidd.)

      On the other hand, while Camby would be great, I can live with a C rotation of Chandler/Amare/Jordan/Jeffries/Jorts.

    6. daJudge:
      If it took the extra dough to get Camby, I would skip Prigioni.I hope that doesn’t become a stumbling block. Camby going to the Heat is just too much for me this morning.Really hope it doesn’t happen.

      I doubt or rather I can not see a reason Houston would take Joel Anthony back in a trade. I think Mia overpaid for him and since his contract is guaranteed they will have to buy him out if they do not want him. Maybe they like him though but I just think you can get a player like him for the min. The heat can however offer a 1st to go with him so that may be worth it but if they want a pick that low they can just buy a pick which maybe cheaper.

      NY however has non guaranteed contracts to give back and an expiring contract. Plus some overseas guys if they do not trade for Kid.

      If Camby just out right pick us and wants more than vet min. They could hopefully trade for Kidd and split the mini-mle between Camby and Prigioni

    7. … I myself want to wait until the 11 because I think some more good players will be available for the min or the MLE.

    8. Z-man:
      On the other hand, while Camby would be great, I can live with a C rotation of Chandler/Amare/Jordan/Jeffries/Jorts.

      At this point, it’s not about having Marcus Camby as much as it is about making sure he isn’t playing in Miami next season.

    9. Sixers, I think committed hari kari. If they only knew how much respect we had for them they might have gone for it again but, I think they saw that even with the expensive Williams and Iguodala they were behind us in the division and saw the moves us and the C’s are making and thought, maybe better to start rebuilding now…rad!

      As to the C’s, they won the chip a few years ago based on three future hall of famers. Now, one is gone. I have enormous respect for that organization. They had a tremendous draft, they added Jet, they’ll be there for the Atlantic, no doubt, but I think we have an excellent chance to surpass them this year.

      Rafa, you’re posts are a little overly 2008ish. Jkidd ain’t Zach Randolph or Steve Francis, salary wise. Also, just think of how he plays basketball. He’s a good passer, no?

    10. Z-man: So the ideal “possible” playoff rotation looks like this:Starters:MeloAmareChandlerLinShumpertBench:KiddCambyJRNovakSeems like Prigioni would be excellent insurance…a big PG who can slide to SG in case Shump doesn’t recover quickly enough, or Kidd or Lin regress or get injured. White will back up as an athletic wing. Then I hope we keep either Jordan or Jorts as roster filler.

      I would take Shump out of there, not counting on him unfortunately. With Jeffries coming back, I don’t think Camby is absolutely neccesary… Isn’t this Prigioni guy some type of cult hero in Spain? Is he going to come in to be a third string point guard? Even if he doesn’t make the vet. minimum in Spain, these local legend dudes are proud as hell. I agree with ABG, Bayless would round out the rotation VERY nicely. Even then our perimeter D is still a little suspect, however.

    11. Tony Pena: I would take Shump out of there, not counting on him unfortunately. With Jeffries coming back, I don’t think Camby is absolutely neccesary… Isn’t this Prigioni guy some type of cult hero in Spain? Is he going to come in to be a third string point guard? Even if he doesn’t make the vet. minimum in Spain, these local legend dudes are proud as hell. I agree with ABG, Bayless would round out the rotation VERY nicely. Even then our perimeter D is still a little suspect, however.

      I think our best move of the off season might be the non trade of Shump. The kid showed last year that he’s a quick healer.

    12. I want to see what Jordan can do next year, I think we need some bench scoring and I would like to add some young athleticism. Ipso facto (or as Archie Bunker would say, “If so fatso”), gimme some J Bayless for the mini MLE and I will be a happier Knicks fan.
      If need be, we can use the vet min, to sign a guy like Przybilla, Jason Collins, Sheld. Williams, Turiaf or, here’s who I’d really like on the cheap, Sean Williams, who averages 10/9/3(blks) per 36.

    13. I second any motion that makes Miami less super than they already are and I don’t get how we couldn’t make Ray Allen a pitch of our own. He’s exactly the kind of starting SG we need. JR is not a traditional SG, he’s a sixth man. Come to think of it roles actually matter in basketball.

      massive: At this point, it’s not about having Marcus Camby as much as it is about making sure he isn’t playing in Miami next season.

    14. Btw waiting till the 11th isn’t bad either but the way things are swinging seems to suggest that the cap number will go up. In that case I think another move to consider will be S&T for Morrow. ATL is bottoming out anyway so I’m sure they’d love the expiring and non guaranteed contracts.

    15. Look at the stats for Joel Anthony and Marcus Camby for last year:

      http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=cambyma01&y1=2012&p2=anthojo01&y2=2012

      They played almost exactly the same amount of minutes and games, and had virtually identical WS48 and shot-blocking stats. Anthony had a much better TS% while Camby was by far a better rebounder. Camby’s FT% was truly horrendous. All in all, the stats don’t seem to indicate that swapping these two results in a major upgrade for the Heat.

    16. The relief at not trading Shumpert for Nash continues to boggle my mind. He was a bad offensive player all through college and was awful offensively last season. If you factor in their defensive prowess and compare their numbers he’s basically Thabo Sefolosha with worse shot selection (and a major knee injury). That is a player you trade for Steve Nash 110% of the time without blinking. Sure, he may improve on offense–or not. Sure, he may regain his altheticism after the injury–or not. But how much would he have to improve to outweigh having the best offensive PG of our generation steer the ship for the duration of this core’s window? To say that we’re better off without Nash, having kept Shumpert and brought in washed up Jason Kidd, is totally lunacy IMO.

    17. Did you see Thabo’s defense through out the Playoffs and he can actually hit a 3 pointer too. If Shumps ceiling is Thabo Sefalosha and actually think that is rather his floor, heck I’ll take the lunacy of not trading him for a 38yr old in the decline who can’t play D. Now we have a 50 yr old who is still a good defender, a good passer and good 3 pt shooter next to our young defensive Ace. Hey but I don’t blame you, you’re a Knicks fan. For most of us its basically Lebron or bust.

      flossy:
      The relief at not trading Shumpert for Nash continues to boggle my mind.He was a bad offensive player all through college and was awful offensively last season.If you factor in their defensive prowess and compare their numbers he’s basically Thabo Sefolosha with worse shot selection (and a major knee injury).That is a player you trade for Steve Nash 110% of the time without blinking.Sure, he may improve on offense–or not.Sure, he may regain his altheticism after the injury–or not.But how much would he have to improve to outweigh having the best offensive PG of our generation steer the ship for the duration of this core’s window?To say that we’re better off without Nash, having kept Shumpert and brought in washed up Jason Kidd, is totally lunacy IMO.

    18. Come on it’s Marcus Camby! Plus Camby can also stretch the floor a bit and that will help our roster and the Heat’s as well.

      Z-man:
      Look at the stats for Joel Anthony and Marcus Camby for last year:

      http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=cambyma01&y1=2012&p2=anthojo01&y2=2012

      They played almost exactly the same amount of minutes and games, and had virtually identical WS48 and shot-blocking stats.Anthony had a much better TS% while Camby was by far a better rebounder. Camby’s FT% was truly horrendous.All in all, the stats don’t seem to indicate that swapping these two results in a major upgrade for the Heat.

    19. LOL. Okay. 38 year old on the decline who can’t play D. You mean the one who averaged 12ast/36 last year on a team full of scrubs while posting better than .600 TS%. You do realize that after a year and a half together the Knicks still have a losing record when both. “stars” are in the starting line-up? That is our biggest problem (one Nash would have fixed), not defense–we were still a top 10 defensive team when Shumpert was injured. But yeah go ahead and tell yourself that Jason Kidd is still a good defensive player (ad long as he doesn’t, uh, try to guard other PGs) or someone who makes any kind of impact on offense. Can’t wait to see how his 36% shooting and inability to blown by a traffic cone bring this offense to life. I bet it will be even better when he’s 42.

      Gideon Zaga:
      Did you see Thabo’s defense through out the Playoffs and he can actually hit a 3 pointer too. If Shumps ceiling is Thabo Sefalosha and actually think that is rather his floor, heck I’ll take the lunacy of not trading him for a 38yr old in the decline who can’t play D. Now we have a 50 yr old who is still a good defender, a good passer and good 3 pt shooter next to our young defensive Ace. Hey but I don’t blame you, you’re a Knicks fan. For most of us its basically Lebron or bust.

    20. Nash never was coming here, so the point is moot. I would have been sad to see Shump go because, like Gallo and Lee, he is very likeable and a home-grown product. Maybe I’m sappy, but I love rooting for guys we drafted. Had the Nash trade gone through, we would be entirely a team of mercenaries. Ultimately, I still root for the laundry and want a championship as much as anyone, and would have signed off on the deal, but I am not sad that it didn’t happen. I am hoping that Shump comes back strong and proves all the doubters wrong. Also rooting for Kidd to turn back the clock to 2010 and prove his doubters wrong. It would be ironic if Nash’s back acts up and Kidd turns out to have been the better signing!

    21. Gideon Zaga: Come on it’s Marcus Camby! Plus Camby can also stretch the floor a bit and that will help our roster and the Heat’s as well.

      Stretch the floor?!

    22. forget Camby, we can sign him after the all star break for the playoffs if we need…Im interested in getting lou williams and start him at the 2.
      Let Fields go and jr smith…what does Lou get offered?

    23. Camby had a .265 WP48 last year, #3 in centers. We’d be a powerhouse team with a top center on the floor for 48 minutes. Someone’s gotta clean up all those bricks by Amar’e and Carmelo.

    24. It’s disappointing that no one, especially the players in the league, is taking the Knicks serious. And yes, I put that on melo.

    25. The Honorable Cock Jowles: Camby had a .265 WP48 last year, #3 in centers. We’d be a powerhouse team with a top center on the floor for 48 minutes. Someone’s gotta clean up all those bricks by Amar’e and Carmelo.

      Amazing that this is true despite his horrendous shooting percentages. Guy can rebound, though!

    26. I bet we could get Wilson back with the pu pu platter. We could use a forward that can actually play good defense, and he can play both forward positions. As long as he can lay off the 18 foot jumpers… we have Melo now for those.

    27. danvt: I think our best move of the off season might be the non trade of Shump. The kid showed last year that he’s a quick healer.

      And he probably slowly worked himself into that injury, playing hurt and all.

    28. Just looked at a WoW article that said we should match Landry’s offer sheet. Check, please.

    29. I’m still torn on the Nash thing. But I’m glad we still have Shump! So I guess I’m not torn… What he could’ve done for us on the floor is obvious. But what I would’ve really liked was him becoming the Knicks “de facto offensive coordinator”, as I think JC Knickfan put it. Now Kidd aint too shabby himself, but Nash could’ve had an impact in our offensive philosophy in general, taking that off Woodson’s plate. Whereas Kidd might help from game to game or quarter to quarter, etc.

    30. Z-man: Just looked at a WoW article that said we should match Landry’s offer sheet. Check, please.

      I think you misread that, it said Toronto should put a match to Landry’s offer sheet

    31. 2FOR18: It’s disappointing that no one, especially the players in the league, is taking the Knicks serious. And yes, I put that on melo.

      Nobody ever does.

    32. d-mar: I think you misread that, it said Toronto should put a match to Landry’s offer sheet

      Maybe his stats look better in the metric system…

    33. Lou Williams, Elton Brand, and Marcus Camby are all on the market right now. Getting Brand and Camby could be possible, but Lou seems like a pipe dream. A 2 guard rotation of Smith, Shump, and Lou would be ridiculous, and a frontcourt of Stat, Chandler, Brand, and Camby is even crazier. I keep thinking that the only way to sneak a title is to have that SA/Dallas roster depth. We just need a little bit of luck to get that deep, but I think it’s attainable.

      And no thank you to the Spanish PG. We still need a starting 2 and we’re worried about a 35 year old who’s never played NBA ball.

    34. Been reading Jared Zwerling’s latest chat transcript, and to be honest, it makes you think he really has no idea what he’s talking about.

      http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/newyork/chat/_/id/44458

      One guy asks if they don’t match Lin, how much cap space would they have to sign another PG, and Zwerling writes: “enough cap space”. Um, the correct answer is ZERO. That’s why it’s such a no-brainer, because the only player you’d ever get of Lin’s caliber with zero cap space is Lin because of the early bird thing.

      THen another guy asks whether the Knicks will have cap space to retain Shump after his rookie contract, and Zwerling writes that Shumpert is signed beyond next season and who knows what he’ll be worth after that. Actually, Shump is signed through 15-16 if the Knicks want him, and even then they’ll have Bird Rights to him, so cap space doesn’t even matter.

      I feel bad ripping on the guy, but isn’t this his entire job, to know these things?

    35. I get the emotional attachment to Shumpert (and I share it) and understand that it wasn’t our choice whether or not to sign Nash. It’s reading comments by people here and elsewhere who should know better, bending over backwards to rationalize how we’re better off *from a basketball standpoint* because Nash decided to play for the Lakers, that’s totally stupefying. I mean I like routing for our own draft picks too, but in for a dime, in for a dollar. Having totally turned the roster over in an effort (so fair pathetically ineffectual) to contend, it would be nice to root for a team with a shot at getting past the 2nd round. Oh well. Nothing to do about it now. I just wish Jason Kidd hadnt shown up to add insult to injury.

    36. Camby??? Yeah, the Knicks need a 38 year old center that shoots less than 50% – free throws! That should scare Miami. Can’t they wait till he turns 40 so they can get him cheaper.

      Regarding J. Kidd’s signing with the knicks, I think Dallas didn’t want him and they’re making believe they lost out on the deal. Cuban takes care of his guys and is helping him save face.

    37. Rumor has it that the knicks tried to sign Michael Jordan, but Stern vetoed the deal. Owners can’t play for other teams.
      Jordan was quoted as saying he can still give eighteen solid minutes.

    38. Z-man:
      Just looked at a WoW article that said we should match Landry’s offer sheet. Check, please.

      I think we should match Landry’s offer sheet. We are hopelessly capped out and, if we keep Lin, over the apron till Amare, Chandler and Melo come off the books anyway so in reality it doesn’t matter if we pay Fields 1 million a year or 6 million. Why not resign him. Worse case he is terrible and we wasted Dolan’s money with no real flexibility hit, best case he plays great and he is worth his contract, most likely case he improves some and is a solid, albeit very overpaid, rotation player.

    39. flossy, I certainly love Steve Nash and respect him a great deal. His game is beautiful, he’s tough and seems to have his head on quite straight. Again though, I think Shump is a very special player and will be for a long time. For me, it’s not just that he’s home grown (although that is part), but his shut down defense as quite rare in this league. IMO, this quality is very underrated. In addition, I think his offensive game has very good potential considering his form and athletic ability. Finally, Shump seems to have a Mason/Oakley gene—tough young dude. So, while I would have loved to get Nash, it would have been a Pyrrhic victory for me if we dumped the Shump.

    40. Ben, I couldn’t disagree more. Dolan may be a billionaire, but to pay luxury tax on the overblown salary of a fringe rotation player is throwing money away. There was no excuse for Landry’s regressing this year. He had a prolonged off-season to work on his game and knew what his role would be after Melo got here. To pay him 3x what JR Smith would make is a joke. I wish him well in Toronto, but it was his decision to sign an unmatchable contract. I truly doubt that he improves so much that whoever we replace his minutes with doesn’t play just as well in the next two years.

    41. hoolahoop:
      Camby??? Yeah, the Knicks need a 38 year old center that shoots less than 50% – free throws! That should scare Miami. Can’t they wait till he turns 40 so they can get him cheaper.

      Regarding J. Kidd’s signing with the knicks, I think Dallas didn’t want him and they’re making believe they lost out on the deal. Cuban takes care of his guys and is helping him save face.

      How about a player who was #5 in the league in offensive rebound percentage?

      #2 in defensive rebound percentage?

      Led the league in total rebound percentage?

      #9 in block percentage?

      I mean, seriously, if you’re going to damn him for his poor free throw shooting, don’t forget that there aren’t many players in the league who can do what he does on the boards. And according to the four factors, ORB% is very, very important. Much more important than FTM/FGA.

    42. I’d love to bring the Camby man back, but I have no idea why he’d come play for us instead of Miami.

    43. On the one hand, he could have a starting role on a team favored to win several more titles over the next few years. On the other hand, we could offer him the opportunity to be an employee of James Dolan again…

      Seriously though, if Ray Allen, who already has a ring, turned down 2 years/$12mil from Boston to take 3 years/$9mil from the Heat, we have no shot at Camby.

    44. The Honorable Cock Jowles: How about a player who was #5 in the league in offensive rebound percentage?

      #2 in defensive rebound percentage?

      Led the league in total rebound percentage?

      #9 in block percentage?

      I mean, seriously, if you’re going to damn him for his poor free throw shooting, don’t forget that there aren’t many players in the league who can do what he does on the boards. And according to the four factors, ORB% is very, very important. Much more important than FTM/FGA.

      “According to the four factors…” Are you quoting chapter and verse

      I was refraining comment on this topic but this is too much.

      The one thing THCJ agree on is oboard percentage… Importantly, Camby is not a guy who attempts a lot of put backs like Jeffries. UnfortunAtely, he is a very poor finisher, not much better than JJ, and his mid range is total fools gold. Kenyon Martin is a better mid range shooter, finisher and defender– both players are above average passers.

      Camby is a very selfish defender. He steals rebounds from teammates, and gets himself out of position for blocked shots, frequently giving up easy baskets because of his over-aggressiveness. The lakers destroyed him n the 08 playoffs. He’s. Also a subpar man defender, and will bait his opponent into a layup attempt in an attempt to block it.

      I think in20 25 minutes he’s a good offensive player passing/oboards, and still a net plus on defense because of his length and instincts, but he is more Macgee than Chandler..

      I’d still prefer Kenyon Martin, especially when the playoffs start.

    45. flossy:
      On the one hand, he could have a starting role on a team favored to win several more titles over the next few years.On the other hand, we could offer him the opportunity to be an employee of James Dolan again…

      Seriously though, if Ray Allen, who already has a ring, turned down 2 years/$12mil from Boston to take 3 years/$9mil from the Heat, we have no shot at Camby.

      You’re more insufferable than THCJ.

    46. 2FOR18:
      It’s disappointing that no one, especially the players in the league, is taking the Knicks serious.And yes, I put that on melo.

      +1

      Melo is disapoiting that Kidd is coming. Why?

    47. ruruland: “According to the four factors…” Are you quoting chapter and verse

      I was refraining comment on this topic but this is too much.

      The one thing THCJ agree on is oboard percentage… Importantly, Camby is not a guy who attempts a lot of put backs like Jeffries. UnfortunAtely, he is a very poor finisher, not much better than JJ, and his mid range is total fools gold. Kenyon Martin is a better mid range shooter, finisher and defender– both players are above average passers.

      Camby is a very selfish defender. He steals rebounds from teammates, and gets himself out of position for blocked shots, frequently giving up easy baskets because of his over-aggressiveness. The lakers destroyed him n the 08 playoffs. He’s. Also a subpar man defender, and will bait his opponent into a layup attempt in an attempt to block it.

      I think in20 25 minutes he’s a good offensive player passing/oboards, and still a net plus on defense because of his length and instincts, but he is more Macgee than Chandler..

      I’d still prefer Kenyon Martin, especially when the playoffs start.

      Lots of subjective analysis that’s unable to be substantiated. Par for the course from you.

      And why are you mad at flossy? Because the league doesn’t suck Carmelo’s nipples like you do?

    48. I think Camby can still play. He still rebounds like a freaking beast, and is a quality rim protector. So I’m with Jowles on this one– I’m pro-Camby all the way.

      I don’t love the idea of building the bench around a bunch of 38-year olds, but Kidd and Camby both fit our needs well.

    49. Gideon Zaga:
      Did you see Thabo’s defense through out the Playoffs and he can actually hit a 3 pointer too. If Shumps ceiling is Thabo Sefalosha and actually think that is rather his floor, heck I’ll take the lunacy of not trading him for a 38yr old in the decline who can’t play D. Now we have a 50 yr old who is still a good defender, a good passer and good 3 pt shooter next to our young defensive Ace. Hey but I don’t blame you, you’re a Knicks fan. For most of us its basically Lebron or bust.

      Seriously, it’s pointless now but how different would everyone’s fortunes have been if LeBron were in the front court with Amar’e? Amar’e could continue to be a totally one-dimensional defensive cipher, and it wouldn’t have hurt one bit, and LeBron’s ability to play the 4 at times would have allowed STAT to abuse his matchups at the 5 on offense.

    50. JK47:
      I think Camby can still play.He still rebounds like a freaking beast, and is a quality rim protector.So I’m with Jowles on this one– I’m pro-Camby all the way.

      I don’t love the idea of building the bench around a bunch of 38-year olds, but Kidd and Camby both fit our needs well.

      I’m not anti Camby, hed be big upgrade over JJ, but his advanced numbers are misleading. Take or leave my analysis, but I’d prefer a much less attractive wow guy– Kmart.

    51. The Honorable Cock Jowles: Lots of subjective analysis that’s unable to be substantiated. Par for the course from you.

      And why are you mad at flossy? Because the league doesn’t suck Carmelo’s nipples like you do?

      In two of Camby 4 years in Denver with more than 60 games started, the Nuggets were better defensively with hi off the floor… They also advanced to the WCF the year after he was released, as Chris Andersen was more effective in his role.

      Also, the teams he’s played on have rarely been great rebounding. And his teammates have talked about his rebounds stealing causing injury.

    52. Have we been looking at Kmart at all and do we have a realistic shot of getting him? If not, I don’t know why he’s in the conversation, I could list off many forwards I would rather have than Camby (but almost none are available for us)

      ruruland: I’m not anti Camby, hed be big upgrade over JJ, but his advanced numbers are misleading. Take or leave my analysis, but I’d prefer a much less attractive wow guy– Kmart.

    53. ruruland: You’re more insufferable than THCJ.

      That really cuts me to the quick. Why even post here if not for your approval?

    54. Jowles, are you OK with using Jerome Jordan in a S&T for Camby? I know you like him too…

      I’m very ambivalent about giving up on Jordan, he seemed to have some significant upside.

    55. Ruru,
      Rebound-stealing? Really? I’ve never heard of that concept before, sounds like something somebody made up. Seriously, do we now have to wonder about all of the high-volume rebounders? And are you implying that Camby’s DPOY was a fraud?

      Besides, who on the knicks is he going to steal rebounds from, Jason Kidd?

    56. I know we’ve veered off it temporarily, but something’s been bugging me about the Kidd discussion. Frankly I’m flabbergasted so many of you have a problem with bringing in a guy like him for what is essentially double the veteran minimum salary. There is too much talk as if he is going to be playing starters minutes. Get it into your heads: Jeremy Lin is going to be a Knick for a long time, he is going to play AT LEAST 30 minutes per night barring injury, and Jason Kidd will pick up some of the rest as needed, purely in a complementary role. Maybe Kidd starts the game, but if Lin is coming in after the first six minutes and playing most of the next 42, then what is the problem? We were all ecstatic about Lin playing starter’s minutes at the 1 last year, regardless of his back-up, so let’s get back to that, because it hasn’t changed.

      Don’t want Kidd guarding athletic PGs in iso situations? Fine, that’s what Shumpert, JR and whoever else the Knicks pick up are for. The Nets and Lakers are the only teams I can think of who have very tough covers at both guard spots, so I really think Kidd’s liability in guarding his position one-on-one is not going to rear its head much given his reduced minutes, particularly since many will come against second units and it will certainly be outweighed by his ability to hit the three and dictate impeccable floor spacing on offense, as well as helping to clean up on the boards a bit. The dude is old and a shell of his former self, but he’s still a net positive in more ways than not. I just don’t see how that is not worth $3mil to this team. With his vision on the court, ability to anticipate the open cutter, and to hit the open three himself, this Knicks team has the chance to totally reverse their fortunes from last year and demoralize their opponents, dropping a deluge of threes on them in short order.

    57. @10,

      Wait until our 39 year old PG gives us 10 games that make us remember how good he was back in the day, while giving us 25 games out due to injury and the rest of them we will sit there thinking “Is this really year one of the 3 year deal?”

    58. Z-man:
      Look at the stats for Joel Anthony and Marcus Camby for last year:

      http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=cambyma01&y1=2012&p2=anthojo01&y2=2012

      They played almost exactly the same amount of minutes and games, and had virtually identical WS48 and shot-blocking stats.Anthony had a much better TS% while Camby was by far a better rebounder. Camby’s FT% was truly horrendous.All in all, the stats don’t seem to indicate that swapping these two results in a major upgrade for the Heat.

      Zman,

      You don’t need to look at the stats to know that Camby is superior to Joel Anthony. You just need to watch a game. Any game from last year and you will be thoroughly convinced.

    59. Z-man:
      Jason Kidd did.

      Jason Kidd is here to pad up his retirement fund in case the economy continues to decline. Dolan is one heck of a retirement plan if you just smile his way.

    60. Jafa: Zman,

      You don’t need to look at the stats to know that Camby is superior to Joel Anthony.You just need to watch a game.Any game from last year and you will be thoroughly convinced.

      According to WP48, which places much greater emphasis on the value of offensive rebounds (and has been adjusted to account for diminishing returns on defensive rebounds, as they found that about half the time a player gets a defensive rebound, his teammate would have gotten it instead) and much lesser emphasis on volume scoring, Camby is twice as effective as Anthony — .265 to .133 WP48.

      Now I tend to buy the Wins Produced thing because their Points over Par rating is eerily accurate, often within one or two points of an actual end score. The only problem with Camby is that he’s old and liable to fall off of the cliff with his walker leading the way. Kidd has the same problem.

      I would go so far as to say that if Camby goes to South Beach and takes minutes from Anthony, the Heat will win 65-70 games barring significant injury. Those offensive rebounding numbers are downright filthy. 18.8 reb/48! Tops in the league at 38!

    61. If Kidd sucks it’s not really all that hard to find another PG for the veteran minimum. Backup PGs are not a rare commodity.

    62. hoolahoop:
      Camby??? Yeah, the Knicks need a 38 year old center that shoots less than 50% – free throws! That should scare Miami. Can’t they wait till he turns 40 so they can get him cheaper.

      Regarding J. Kidd’s signing with the knicks, I think Dallas didn’t want him and they’re making believe they lost out on the deal. Cuban takes care of his guys and is helping him save face.

      I disagree on Camby. I tend to believe that big men (PFs and Cs) age better than guards. The don’t rely on their quickness as much as guards to be effective and just being tall means you don’t have to jump as high to get rebounds and put backs. Plus, for what we want Camby to do (rebound, block shots, defend, all in back-up minutes) I have no problem with signing him.

      I agree with you 100% on Jason Kidd.

    63. JK47:
      If Kidd sucks it’s not really all that hard to find another PG for the veteran minimum. Backup PGs are not a rare commodity.

      No it is not. Which is why we should not have given Kidd $9.7 M over 3 years.

    64. THCJ, how many wins do you think we’d get with the additions of Kidd and Camby? Also, where can I read up on WP/48?

    65. Is anyone concerned about the canny signing in that it means amare will get virtually 0 minutes at the 5? That seemed to be a good offensive position for him…

    66. Reports out of Miami are that Camby postponed his Miami trip and wants to see Knicks first. As Windhorst noted on ESPN, Heat don’t have the mini MLE anymore after signing Allen, so their only way to get Camby is for vets minimum or a sign and trade – and Rockets don’t want to trade with Heat on this, whereas both Houston and Dallas have been open to the TDDWTDD puu puu platter. So we could get both Kidd and Camby for 3 mil, one for the exception, one via trade, while Camby would have to settle for half that from Miami.

      Not a done deal, but those are good odds.

    67. “Although Toronto’s three-year, $20 million “poison pill” offer sheet to Fields looks rather bloated, especially in light of Steve Nash’s decision to spurn the Raptors and go to the Los Angeles Lakers, there’s a reasonable chance he puts together a breakout year soon. Fields can be drastically overrated by the stats community’s radical fringe for his rebounding and — at least when he was a rookie — his sky-high offensive efficiency (a number that was propped up by an incredibly low usage rate and the fact that 70 percent of his field goals were assisted), so let’s dispel the laughable notion that Fields is a star.

      Having said that, he’s also much better than his lifetime 12.9 PER would have you believe. No, he’s never going to be a scorer, but his 3-point and free throw shooting numbers should bounce back to more resemble his 2011 form, his defense is above-average (particularly against SFs), and his rebounding does add some value. Plus, like Mayo, he’s durable, never having missed a game in his career thus far. At 24, he should continue to improve and peak as an above-average all-around player in the next few years.”

      http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/8133482/nba-free-agents-break-next-season

      It’s funny how ESPN is talking up Landry Fields after he’s a goner.

    68. @ 61:

      Robotachi, the problem I have with the Kidd signing is that it feels like an impulse signing. Nobody was interested in Kidd because he is 39 years old, coming off a bad year and the Mavs were offering him 3 years and $9 M. All of a sudden we get spurned by Nash, Brooklyn steals the headlines (resigning DWill, trading for JJ) and we jump to make a splash by signing a name.

      Kidd is a great signing at 1 year and $1.4 M. Kidd is an ok signing at 3 year and $9.7 M with a team option on years 2 and 3. So I reserve the right to change my mind if this contract contains team options in years 2 and 3. However, if its all guaranteed money for 3 years, Kidd is a horrible signing. He does not put us “over the top” of the top 2 teams in the East (Heat and Celtics) and may hinder our future cap and trade flexibility (nobody is touching Kidd in a future trade, but if we have a young PG making that salary, someone may be convinced he has enough “upside” to trade with us).

    69. massive:
      THCJ, how many wins do you think we’d get with the additions of Kidd and Camby? Also, where can I read up on WP/48?

      If we’re replacing whoever is not named Lin on the Knicks roster and preventing Amar’e from being the worst center in the league (keeping him at the 4), I’d say that we could stand to add 5-10 wins from those two players alone. That said, I think Jerome Jordan has the potential to put up great numbers at the 5, and Camby is probably not as necessary as he is a luxury. Giving up Jordan for him would probably be a mistake, given their ages.

      http://www.thenbageek.com/
      http://www.wagesofwins.com/
      http://www.nerdnumbers.com/splits

    70. The Honorable Cock Jowles: According to WP48, which places much greater emphasis on the value of offensive rebounds (and has been adjusted to account for diminishing returns on defensive rebounds, as they found that about half the time a player gets a defensive rebound, his teammate would have gotten it instead) and much lesser emphasis on volume scoring, Camby is twice as effective as Anthony — .265 to .133 WP48.Now I tend to buy the Wins Produced thing because their Points over Par rating is eerily accurate, often within one or two points of an actual end score. The only problem with Camby is that he’s old and liable to fall off of the cliff with his walker leading the way. Kidd has the same problem.I would go so far as to say that if Camby goes to South Beach and takes minutes from Anthony, the Heat will win 65-70 games barring significant injury. Those offensive rebounding numbers are downright filthy. 18.8 reb/48! Tops in the league at 38!

      This is a case where WP 48 and OReb% may grossly exaggerate the difference between these two players. The difference between Camby and Anthony was 1.1 OReb per game, or 1.6 OReb per 36. On the other hand, Anthony had a TS% that was 100 points higher than Camby. I would not be surprised if it turned out that Camby got the extra OReb per game rebounding one of his own his own missed shots.

    71. The Honorable Cock Jowles: If we’re replacing whoever is not named Lin on the Knicks roster and preventing Amar’e from being the worst center in the league (keeping him at the 4), I’d say that we could stand to add 5-10 wins from those two players alone. That said, I think Jerome Jordan has the potential to put up great numbers at the 5, and Camby is probably not as necessary as he is a luxury. Giving up Jordan for him would probably be a mistake, given their ages.http://www.thenbageek.com/http://www.wagesofwins.com/http://www.nerdnumbers.com/splits

      ESPN had the possible S&T for Camby including Jorts, TD and Gadzuric, which would make me happy. I totally agree on Jordan being worth keeping.

    72. @79.

      I’ll gladly take that. Jordan is someone I want to keep for at least a little while longer to see how he can develop.

    73. ESPN had the possible S&T for Camby including Jorts, TD and Gadzuric, which would make me happy. I totally agree on Jordan being worth keeping.

      I’d love to keep Jordan, but if they’re not going to play him, I can live with him going. But yeah, if they could get Camby without giving up Jordan that’d be sweet. Also, they still need to sign a third string point guard. Who is out there for the vet minimum?

    74. By the way, if Camby is a Knick, is that the end of the line for Jeffries? I think there’s still a spot for him if they trade Jorts for Camby.

    75. I hope not, he’s a different enough kind of player than Camby to still be very valuable at the vet’s minimum.

    76. The Honorable Cock Jowles: Lots of subjective analysis that’s unable to be substantiated.

      Yet. Sportvu will prove this to be true. It’s not hard to imagine, is it? Don’t bother covering guys outside the paint when you’re on defense, just hang around the rim. It’s hard to get rebounds when you’re contesting outside the paint. These are things that film will show, but disappear in the box score. When Sportvu makes box scores (and “advanced stats” that rely on them) obsolete, this stuff will probably be made more clear. Or if not, at least disproven so we don’t even need to discuss it.

      That’s not to say that rebounding even in that circumstance is a bad thing. Players miss plenty of noncontested shots, and you still need to get those. And frankly, I’m not sure whether a half-hearted contest and hustle for the rebound isn’t better than a full-on contest with its increased risk of fouling a jump shooter, and increased risk of not getting the defensive rebound.

      @Jafa – I’d still like to ask: what is the downside of signing Kidd again, other than someone else’s $? would you rather have Felton? Sessions will get more than we can pay. If Kidd sucks in 2 years (btw we don’t even know how many of these years are guaranteed), then you waive him. Or trade him as an expiring. Or sit him on the bench. Who cares? Chances are, a guy like Kidd will retire rather than be released because he sucks.

      Re: Camby – it is totally a no-brainer to sign him if he’ll come for a S&T, especially if Jordan is not involved. I see very little upside to Toney Douglas, who at best would be our 5th guard. Jorts has a worse shooting better rebounding Brian Scalabrine written all over him. RE: him vs. Kenyon Martin – I think Tyson getting into foul trouble (or being worried about it) was a significant issue for us last year. Camby helps that a lot.

    77. And, as Hahn mentioned in his timeline, Camby probably fits a lot better next to Amare on the court than Tyson does. Doesn’t demand PNR touches, doesn’t hang around the paint that much on offense. An end-of-first quarter/beginning of 2nd quarter unit of Lin, Amare, Camby, JR, and Novak could do a LOT of damage on offense, with Camby still back there to help erase some defensive lapses.

    78. I’ve read that Camby wants to start. He won’t in NY; he will in Miami.

    79. Frank O.:
      I’ve read that Camby wants to start. He won’t in NY; he will in Miami.

      Funny how more than doubling one’s salary might make that desire less important.

      Camby needs to take a lesson from Jason Kidd – he’s 38, doesn’t need the fireworks anymore. He’s already done that in NYC.

      He’s probably better off playing about 20 min/game at this point in his career. I would LOVE it if Tyson could be whittled down to 30-32 min/game also. And I can see the two of them on the floor together in some circumstances too – both are probably quick and long enough to guard most 4’s in this league. And good luck scoring in the paint with those two shot blockers.

    80. The biggest obstacle for the Knicks is that they are FAR less likely to win a championship than Miami in the next 2 years. That is pretty compelling for a 38yo without a ring. Riley can sell that stars and reserves have paid that price on the Heat.

    81. Oh, definitely. Luckily, Houston won’t do a sign and trade and I just don’t see Camby taking half the money that the Knicks are offering. Heck, the pu pu platter can allow them to offer him $4-5 million!!!

    82. I personally don’t think he’s worth that much, especially since we’d have to include Jordan to reach that amount in a S&T deal, but I guess that’s what going all in is all about.

    83. Frank O.:
      I’ve read that Camby wants to start. He won’t in NY; he will in Miami.

      I don’t know how many of you were knicks fans when Camby was on the team. He had a major attitude problem when he arrived. He was becoming a cancer on the team, then was benched (Van Gundy?) until he started getting in line. Unless he’s changed, he’s not a good locker room guy.

    84. We were lucky last year with Tyson not missing alot of time. The dude does have a significant injury history, so it would be nice to have Camby just in case…who else would play 5 – Jordan’s not ready, Stat can only do it in spurts…

    85. Z-man:
      The biggest obstacle for the Knicks is that they are FAR less likely to win a championship than Miami in the next 2 years.That is pretty compelling for a 38yo without a ring. Riley can sell that stars and reserves have paid that price on the Heat.

      I don’t get it. Take Ray Allan. He signs for much less money to play for Miami to win a championship, and at best, he’s the fourth most valuable player on the team. It’s not his championship. He’s not winning it. It’s Lebron, Wade, Bosch and role players. And Camby is farther down the food chain. So, Camby can get a ring. Big deal, Eddie Curry got one too.

    86. Brian Cronin:
      Oh, definitely. Luckily, Houston won’t do a sign and trade and I just don’t see Camby taking half the money that the Knicks are offering. Heck, the pu pu platter can allow them to offer him $4-5 million!!!

      It seems like anything other than Gadz and TD would be too much unless we get a player back. It would be nice to get Parsons too but I know that won’t happen.

    87. hoolahoop, you make no sense. Camby is not going to be the MVP of any team. He will have virtually the same role on the Heat as he would on a scrub team. He has plenty of money and made over $10 million a year for the last 10 years. The one thing he doesn’t have is the experience of playing on a championship team, and on this Heat team, he might have a bigger role than he would on just about every team in the league. With Allen, he feels dissed by the Celts (whether he has reason to or not is not ours to decide) and will probably have a bigger role on the Heat than he would have if he stayed in Boston. Also, role players are part of the winning too, or are you saying that Battier and Chalmers had nothing to do with Miami winning?

    88. Personally, as an athlete I’d rather play a bigger role helping my team be competitive, than a smaller role on a team that’s already stacked (to the ire of all non-Miami fans) just so I can have a ring.

    89. It is reasonable and admirable for a player to feel that way, but in these two situations I don’t think it applies, especially for Camby. Both Allen and Camby will play significant roles on the teams they are deciding between and may in fact play a bigger role in Miami. Even if not, I think every professional athlete wants to be part of a championship experience at some point, and at age 38 the window is closing rapidly. Camby has no particular allegiance to any team, having bounced around the league, and was already down to playing around 20 minutes a game. While I hope he chooses the Knicks, I don’t have a problem with any decision he makes.

    90. Yeah, I agree. There’s nothing wrong with him going to the Heat. It’s not like he’s going to sit on the bench and be a cheerleader like Juwan Howard. He’ll be an important rotation player. I just hope he goes to the Knicks, instead.

    91. Frank: Yet.Sportvu will prove this to be true.It’s not hard to imagine, is it? Don’t bother covering guys outside the paint when you’re on defense, just hang around the rim.It’s hard to get rebounds when you’re contesting outside the paint.

      Yet perimeter players like Wade, Kidd, and Tony Allen gets tons of rebounds. Or are you suggesting that their proficiency is a fluke of multiple systems and not due to individual skill?

      So because there MAY be distortion in the system, let’s throw the system out altogether. Yet we don’t account for the fact that basketball is a fairly consistent game, strategy-wise: don’t leave people open, hustle back on defense, don’t lead with your head on passes, pass to the open man, box out, push the ball in transition, dribble penetration creates defensive imbalances, etc. You and ruruland are adamant that the strategic philosophy in NBA basketball is so different among teams that the stats don’t tell us much at all. Yet there’s a naive correlation of .7 from year to year, not accounting for age, injury, change in teams, coaches, etc. The stats stay the same. That’s why I believe firmly that players are responsible for their own production first and foremost. There are a rare few who absolutely dominate the defense’s attention (LeBron, Jordan, Paul, Nash, Howard, Shaq), but most of the time, one game’s basketball is very, very similar to a game between two completely different teams. And that’s some subjective analysis for you.

      And on that note, it is crazy to say that a technology that hasn’t proven anything yet is going to prove what you and ruruland believe to be true based on shaky subjective analysis that relies on the weakest of human faculties, memory.

    92. If Knicks do sign Camby gonna be very interesting to see the minutes distribution with having a legitimate backup big man now. Also I would think it would make it very rare to see Melo at the 4 and Amar’e at the 5 unless one of Chandler/Camby are hurt.

      Could this also possibly lessen Novak’s minutes even more than Woodson was limiting them toward the end of the season?? Novak essentially becomes the 4th “big” man if they sign Camby and with having 3 legitimate big men you would think Melo’s time at the 4 would be gone. Would be interesting to see how many minutes Woodson would play with only 1 of the 3 main bigs on the floor.

      BTW Im all for signing Camby so Im not looking at it as a negative at all just looking at how his signing would impact the rotation minutes wise.

    93. THC I’m use advanced stats all the time, obviously I believe there is much value in them, they’re clearly an upgrade over standard stats. But they have many flaws and aren’t explanatory.i agree with everything Frank wrote in post 84.

      Here iis another great example of the flaws of advanced stats.

      They would have you believe Camby is a better defender than Chandler. He blocks more shots and snags more boards.

      But how does he block shots. Does he lose position on his defender, is he ale to use his body in a way that allows him to recover to another area of thelfoor, or does he go all out for the swat like Camby.

      Does he not contest shots because he want sto stay in the paint. Does he reach over teammates to get uncontested rebounds.

      That’s before we get into all the other aspects of defense that aren’t accounted by publically available stats……

      Camby is a good player and would make the Knicks better, but hes not nearly as good as his advanced numbers suggest.

      Not going back to square one on this arument though

    94. You notice how Hollinger talks about Fields and his assisted baskets..im guessing he’s familiar with that correlation and attempts to account for it in PER

    95. Jafa: Wait until our 39 year old PG gives us 10 games that make us remember how good he was back in the day, while giving us 25 games out due to injury and the rest of them we will sit there thinking “Is this really year one of the 3 year deal?”

      So, I guess the Bulls shouldn’t have drafted Derrick Rose? Anyone can get injured, old or young. It’s not an indictment of Kidd if he gets hurt.

      As to what he brings, that’s obvious unless you’ve got your head up your stats. He’s one of the best passers in the history of the league! I’ll take him, at a premium, in a backup role.

    96. Agree with this, but see big loser, minutes wise, as Jeffries, as he is now 3rd string, end of bench guy at the 4 and the 5, considering Novak is second string 4.

      BigBlueAL:
      If Knicks do sign Camby gonna be very interesting to see the minutes distribution with having a legitimate backup big man now.Also I would think it would make it very rare to see Melo at the 4 and Amar’e at the 5 unless one of Chandler/Camby are hurt.

      Could this also possibly lessen Novak’s minutes even more than Woodson was limiting them toward the end of the season??Novak essentially becomes the 4th “big” man if they sign Camby and with having 3 legitimate big men you would think Melo’s time at the 4 would be gone.Would be interesting to see how many minutes Woodson would play with only 1 of the 3 main bigs on the floor.

      BTW Im all for signing Camby so Im not looking at it as a negative at all just looking at how his signing would impact the rotation minutes wise.

    97. Dave Berri’s followers are dogmatic to the point of abandoning common sense. Go over to the wages of wins blog– they’re STILL riding Landry Fields’ dick over there. Yes, that Landry Fields, the player that opposing NBA defenses don’t even bother to guard, the shooting guard who shot .250 from 3 and 56% at the line.

      They can’t believe the Knicks are going to pass up on the opportunity to pay Landry $20M.

    98. [sarcasm]I, for one, am highly anticipating the game-by-game “told you so”s about Landry Fields in Toronto.[sarcasm] Whether he excels there or does poorly, we’ll be sure to see a whole lot of virtual ink in the comments section here talking about him one way or the other. I can’t wait!

    99. One thing I noticed about this site is that people are bigger fans of their opinion than of the team’s success. So yeah, Landry Fields will be very relevant here next season, whether he does good or bad.

    100. Well, with the pressure to win now in Toronto being so great, plus the intense media scrutiny, how could Landry possibly do better there than he did here?

    101. RE: Rounding the roster out..how about if we do land Camby, and retain Novak and Earl..how about takin a flier on Redd? I don’t know how washed up he is..but he’s gotta help off the bench. Nope…scratch that..I just thought about the fact he couldn’t do anything in PHX. We do need another 2 guard but who’s out there that’s attainable and will contribute? I hear Extra E may be interested in returning, but he’s a SF an that would make our back up forwards Novak and Extra E. But both are only suited to play PF in a small ball lineup. This Landry Fields thing hurts a little more than we think, I believe. Rite now, the only 2 guard we have on the roster is injured. I’m not quite sure if Earl’s a lock to return. If he does he’ll be the only healthy one for a while. We need 1 who can start and actually fit in that starting lineup while Shump recovers. Earl is better as a 6th as he is given a green light. He can problee be an effective starter with extreme discipline and coaching..but we need him to be our new Starks off the bench. I think he’s a capable defender as well but he doesn’t seem engaged unless he’s getting his shots. So him and Kidd will make a good backcourt tandem off the bench. But back to Camby..if he comes back home that would be amazing to have he and Kidd’s veteran presence on the team. I hope it happens. JJ will be missed..but if Camby replaces him..then maybe not so much. It’s kinda sad tho cuz I was beginning to think JJ is now damn near indispensible..but Camby’s just a better player. I wish we had room for both..but JJ’s offense gets him replaced

    102. Jafa:
      @ 61:

      Robotachi, the problem I have with the Kidd signing is that it feels like an impulse signing.Nobody was interested in Kidd because he is 39 years old, coming off a bad year and the Mavs were offering him 3 years and $9 M.All of a sudden we get spurned by Nash, Brooklyn steals the headlines (resigning DWill, trading for JJ) and we jump to make a splash by signing a name.

      Kidd is a great signing at 1 year and $1.4 M.Kidd is an ok signing at 3 year and $9.7 M with a team option on years 2 and 3.So I reserve the right to change my mind if this contract contains team options in years 2 and 3.However, if its all guaranteed money for 3 years, Kidd is a horrible signing.He does not put us “over the top” of the top 2 teams in the East (Heat and Celtics) and may hinder our future cap and trade flexibility (nobody is touching Kidd in a future trade, but if we have a young PG making that salary, someone may be convinced he has enough “upside” to trade with us).

      Yes, Jason Kidd is the reason the Knicks will not have cap flexibility the next three years…

      I am willing to listen to any reasonable argument for or against signing Kidd, but that is simply not a valid one.

      But I’ll be sure to phone up Jimmy Dolan and relay him your touching concerns for his luxury tax dollars.

    103. Also, my god, how many $3mil signings are out there that can put a team “over the top”? Are we presupposing another diamond in the rough scenario like what happened with Lin? Because I don’t see that guy out there. The nature of a $3mil/yr player is that they’re never going to put you over the top because they’re not so good they can have that effect, hence the low salary

    104. An interesting aside in all of this free agency frenzy, is that like it or not Stern’s plans are creating a more competitive and exciting league.

      As for the Knicks, I think we must accept that this team isn’t winning the championship anytime soon. It will however be nice to support a well constructed, coherent team. We now have point guards that can like, you know, pass. Then we have C’s that are like, alive, big, rebound and try and stop people scoring!
      ECF is all i am hoping for and that Camby doesn’t go to Miami. Really disappointed that Allen went to Miami to ride their coat tails. Thought more of him than that. Emotions and team allegiance aside, I just don’t see the gratification in joining the perennial favourites and defending champions to steam roll the league. He will only achieve the expected and never the unexpected. In Boston they brought the title back to a struggling franchise, I get that, but this move just seems a little easy to me.

    105. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/08/sports/basketball/carmelo-anthony-welcomes-addition-of-jason-kidd.html

      Like I said last month, this was the plan all along after it was apparent Lin was going to be a stud. Last year it was pick and roll ballhandling. This year it’s getting down to about 230 and becoming more of an off-ball player.

      “Expect less of that next season with the addition of Kidd, Anthony said.

      “He is a guy who can get everybody involved,” Anthony said. “I don’t have to do too much ball-handling. Right now, my mind-set is to start working off the ball a lot more.”

    106. taggart4800:

      As for the Knicks, I think we must accept that this team isn’t winning the championship anytime soon.

      I really don’t get this at all.

      The Knicks have a chance to have the most well-rounded starting lineup in the NBA, certainly one of the best, with Camby, Kidd, JR Smith, and Novak coming off the bench — that’s a great team, and I’d argue one that’s markedly better than the Mavericks of ’10.

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