Knicks Morning News (2022.07.06)

  • The Hawks, T-Wolves And Knicks Made Moves With Clear Upsides ? And Downsides – FiveThirtyEight
    [fivethirtyeight.com] — Wednesday, July 6, 2022 6:01:41 AM

    The Hawks, T-Wolves And Knicks Made Moves With Clear Upsides ? And Downsides  FiveThirtyEight

  • NBA free agency early winners and losers: Warriors (losers), T’Wolves (winners), Lakers (who knows) – USA TODAY
    [www.usatoday.com] — Wednesday, July 6, 2022 1:48:45 AM

    NBA free agency early winners and losers: Warriors (losers), T’Wolves (winners), Lakers (who knows)  USA TODAY

  • “I believed Leon Rose, World Wide Wes, their jobs are on the line” – Jay Williams says the New York Knicks have to make a move for 3x All-Star after piling up assets – Sportskeeda
    [www.sportskeeda.com] — Wednesday, July 6, 2022 1:31:26 AM

    “I believed Leon Rose, World Wide Wes, their jobs are on the line” – Jay Williams says the New York Knicks have to make a move for 3x All-Star after piling up assets  Sportskeeda

  • Atlantic Notes: Raptors, Durant, Brogdon, Melton, Knicks – hoopsrumors.com
    [www.hoopsrumors.com] — Wednesday, July 6, 2022 12:56:00 AM

    Atlantic Notes: Raptors, Durant, Brogdon, Melton, Knicks  hoopsrumors.com

  • The Knicks Stumbled Last Season. Here’s How They Can Recover. – The New York Times
    [www.nytimes.com] — Wednesday, July 6, 2022 12:01:11 AM

    The Knicks Stumbled Last Season. Here’s How They Can Recover.  The New York TimesKnicks get hit with tampering charges after signing Jalen Brunson  DeadspinThe New York Knicks Are In Trouble With The NBA  Sports IllustratedPeople Around the League Expect the Knicks to Receive a Tampering Penalty  bleachernation.comNBA World Reacts To Knicks Free Agency Punishment News  The SpunView Full Coverage on Google News

  • WATCH: Viral Video Of Derrick Rose At A Drive Thru – Sports Illustrated
    [www.si.com] — Tuesday, July 5, 2022 8:22:02 PM

    WATCH: Viral Video Of Derrick Rose At A Drive Thru  Sports Illustrated

  • Knicks’ Quentin Grimes coming to ‘dominate’ NBA summer league – New York Post
    [nypost.com] — Tuesday, July 5, 2022 7:01:00 PM

    Knicks’ Quentin Grimes coming to ‘dominate’ NBA summer league  New York Post

  • Newly signed free agent center Isaiah Hartenstein will thrive with the Knicks – Daily Knicks
    [dailyknicks.com] — Tuesday, July 5, 2022 5:00:00 PM

    Newly signed free agent center Isaiah Hartenstein will thrive with the Knicks  Daily Knicks

  • Miles McBride Headlines Knicks Summer League Roster – Sports Illustrated
    [www.si.com] — Tuesday, July 5, 2022 2:35:14 PM

    Miles McBride Headlines Knicks Summer League Roster  Sports Illustrated

  • New York Knicks 2022 Summer League Roster – The Game Haus
    [thegamehaus.com] — Tuesday, July 5, 2022 2:12:57 PM

    New York Knicks 2022 Summer League Roster  The Game Haus

  • Carmelo Anthony Update: Should New York Knicks Sign for Reunion? – Sports Illustrated
    [www.si.com] — Tuesday, July 5, 2022 12:19:38 PM

    Carmelo Anthony Update: Should New York Knicks Sign for Reunion?  Sports Illustrated

  • 2 moves Knicks still must make after first weekend of 2022 NBA free agency – ClutchPoints
    [clutchpoints.com] — Tuesday, July 5, 2022 12:04:51 PM

    2 moves Knicks still must make after first weekend of 2022 NBA free agency  ClutchPoints

  • The New York Knicks Are In Trouble With The NBA – Sports Illustrated
    [www.si.com] — Tuesday, July 5, 2022 11:24:04 AM

    The New York Knicks Are In Trouble With The NBA  Sports IllustratedKnicks get hit with tampering charges after signing Jalen Brunson  DeadspinJalen Brunson a good move but Knicks still look like another barely relevant team  New York Post NBA World Reacts To Knicks Free Agency Punishment News  The SpunPeople Around the League Expect the Knicks to Receive a Tampering Penalty  bleachernation.comView Full Coverage on Google News

  • Pod Strickland: Episode 208 – The Strickland
    [www.thestrick.land] — Tuesday, July 5, 2022 10:32:13 AM

    Pod Strickland: Episode 208  The Strickland

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    128 thoughts to “Knicks Morning News (2022.07.06)”

    1. Z-Man, you left out a third major reason KD & Kyrie went to Brooklyn:

      3. Kyrie grew up in Jersey a fan of the New Jersey Nets, and had a sentimental attachment to that franchise he did not to the Knicks. And it certainly appears that he was driving the decision — or that, at minimum, Durant was willing to hang back and go to whichever of the two teams his buddy preferred.

    2. “Alan
      July 6, 2022 at 8:32 am
      Z-Man, you left out a third major reason KD & Kyrie went to Brooklyn:

      3. Kyrie grew up in Jersey a fan of the New Jersey Nets, and had a sentimental attachment to that franchise he did not to the Knicks. And it certainly appears that he was driving the decision — or that, at minimum, Durant was willing to hang back and go to whichever of the two teams his buddy preferred”

      lol right! So much for that emotional attachment…

    3. Reposted to continue yesterday’s conversation:

      The X-factor in the conversation about Leon is Thibs. The question of what it would take to get Thibs fired is much more valid of a proposition. I think his job is on the line this year. Back in February it was clear that WWW blamed Thibs for the Knicks’ poor performance, and it seemed that after the all-star break, Thibs felt the pressure and reluctantly (and too slowly) shifted gears a bit, with some success on the court.

      Given that tension and the near certainty that the Knicks are at best a play-in candidate, and possibly on the outside looking in again, I think there’s a very real possibility that Thibs is let go at the first sign that things are going sideways again, and I don’t see him surviving a non-playoff season. If the kids aren’t playing enough and Julius sucks again, Thibs should be gone.

      If they don’t make the playoffs and Leon retains Thibs, then the likelyhood of Leon getting fired would increase dramatically. But I think Leon is smart enough to know that and I would bet that he would make the move, even if only out of concern for his job. Hopefully it will be more because he realizes that Thibs has outlived his usefulness to the rebranding effort.

      OTOH, Thibs knows that this is his last, best chance for a long-term coaching gig. It will be interesting to see how much he adapts, given his history of stubbornness. To me, that’s the big story of 2022-23.

    4. Jonathan Wasserman ranked the top undrafted free agents who will be playing in summer league, and our own Jean Montero was number one:

      While NBA scouts gradually started selling stock in Jean Montero, we still saw fringe first-round value.

      He caught an unlucky break at the combine in Chicago, where an injury knocked him out of scrimmages just a few minutes in. NBA teams questioned his 172-pound frame and inconsistent shooting with Overtime, but there is still a good chance Montero’s quickness off the bounce, handle and pacing and passing skills translate to creation and playmaking.

      And though his three-point percentages have never been super convincing, he possesses clear shot-making skill, which he showed at the Nike Hoop Summit with four made threes.

      There are obvious concerns about his finishing and defense, but Montero’s ability to set teammates up and make jumpers, even if it’s in spurts, could be enough for the Dominican guard to stick in a bench spark role.

      It sounds like the plan is to convert Jericho Sims’ two-way deal into a regular NBA contract. We’ll see what the plan is for Trevor Keels’ contract — or if he’ll wind up being part of a trade — but Feron Hunt would be no great loss if the team decides to give two-ways to Keels and Montero.

    5. “By far, the most fucked up and unlucky thing that ever happened to the Knicks was when — after 30 years of shameless tanking from everyone except us — the NBA flattened the lottery odds to prevent tanking the one time we tanked. It’s hard to fathom how unlucky that really was. We’d have had something like a 40% chance to get Zion or Ja. Instead we had 14% and two teams from the middle of the lottery pack (where we usually would have been) got them.”

      It was totally fucked up, especially when it got down the the last 3 and we had a 67% chance of being in the top 2. In deference to geo’s avatar, that was the ultimate Lucy pulling the football away.

      If there’s any consolation, Zion has been a mess since being drafted and now is being maxed on blind faith. That wouldn’t have felt very lucky either!

    6. “It sounds like the plan is to convert Jericho Sims’ two-way deal into a regular NBA contract. We’ll see what the plan is for Trevor Keels’ contract — or if he’ll wind up being part of a trade — but Feron Hunt would be no great loss if the team decides to give two-ways to Keels and Montero.”

      Keels and Montero are nice pickups. Both will have just turned 19 when the season starts, both would possibly have been first round picks next year. They are the youngest guys signed by this FO. What does it suggest? Maybe that once you get past the more sure-fire guys at the top of the lottery, maybe it’s better to draft teenagers outside the first round?

    7. We’ll see what the plan is for Trevor Keels

      I’ve seen Keels being compared to Marcus Smart. I haven’t had the time to learn about the kid, does anyone know more about him?

    8. It was totally fucked up, especially when it got down the the last 3 and we had a 67% chance of being in the top 2.

      in case no one’s ruined your morning yet, it was 86%

    9. “I’ve seen Keels being compared to Marcus Smart. I haven’t had the time to learn about the kid, does anyone know more about him?”

      Very young, not especially athletic but with excellent strength and decent quickness, shot is suspect, high % of body fat (baby fat?). Played 4th fiddle on Duke but had some very nice games against top competition. Beyond that, don’t know much.

    10. DJphan, I’ve got to say, the answer of course is: it depends.

      all i’m asking for is some sort of answer.. of course everything depends… what does it depend on for you?

      is going to the playoffs within the next two years important? if not.. what is? why? or maybe don’t tell me…

      i don’t need other examples … i’m interested in what you think…

      Simple questions don’t always produce simple answers. Please stop with the rhetoric.

      this is not some trick question… i’m just asking to articulate what you’re judging Rose on if it’s not playoffs/wins.. and you said it was making either the roster younger or not making trades or signing for vets when not winning…. but that’s a very very lax standard that almost every gm can meet… except for Rose last year… even hinkie met this standard too… so did mills… so what is it that you actually meant?

      again.. nobody has really articulated it so i’m assuming it’s ‘just vibes man’… which means no one can really know what standard you judge GM’s by.. even yourselves… which makes these discussions about what is good or bad incredibly difficult to engage you guys on….

    11. keels is def not m smart on d, he’s tough but quick guards get a step on him. he kinda reminds me of rodney stuckey. very young.

    12. I’ve been the staunchest Thibs defender on here but I also agree that his job is on the line this year and it should be. I don’t buy the hype that if all goes well we’re only a play-in team. I think there is more parity in the NBA than ever before and the difference between 37 wins and 50 for most teams is not that much. I think a lot of people on this site and in the general public underestimate the talent we have on this team. I also think a lot went wrong last year that hopefully won’t happen again this year.

      But if Thibs plays D Rose heavy minutes and keeps IQ on a leash. If we bring back Taj as a 3rd stringer and he’s getting playing time over healthy players like Sims, Obi, Cam, etc. If Randle gets 40 minutes a night even if he’s not playing great while Obi never gets more than 15. Then he absolutely should be fired. He had a lot of vets last year. It’s understandable to some degree to not throw in the towel on them. But the team is a lot younger this year and clearly pointed towards the future and not just this season.

      But I think Thibs knows this. I think he is less stubborn than people say. And I think he will adapt.

      I think we’re going to surprise a lot of people this season and it’s going to be a fun one.

      Plus, the off season ain’t over yet. Another big move could be in the works. Who knows!

    13. Sorry for the pre-work posting binge, just wanted to add to my Thibs-WWW feud rant: What happens with Cam should be telling. Thibs had to be forced to play him and he actually played very well until he got hurt on a (stupid) hustle play. Since they expended a first rounder to get him (likely with enthusiastic approval from WWW), it would be a slap in the face to dump him for nothing based on Thibs’ disdain/marginalization.

      I, for one, would like to see Cam get a real shot at a rotation spot. He shoots 90% from the line and has a beautiful, if inconsistent stroke. Regardless, how he is handled will be telling.

    14. Barring a trade that sends out Fournier (possible, if Dallas agrees to a S&T for Brunson) or Rose (very unlikely), and assuming the roster is at full health to start the year, whom do you bench in order to play Cam, Z-Man?

      I don’t disagree that since we made the stupid trade for him, we might as well see what he can do rather than triple down on The Incineration. But I wouldn’t play him over Quickley. I wouldn’t play him over Grimes. I wouldn’t play him over Fournier, whose shooting is going to be crucial for our spacing. Even if you believe he can play small-ball PF, which the team does not seem to believe, I sure as hell wouldn’t eat into Obi’s minutes in order to play Cam. We have a full 10-man rotation — our depth is one of the few areas where we measure up pretty well to the rest of the league — and Thibs surely is not going to play 11 guys, nor should he.

    15. DJPhan, There are always unknowable like injuries, pandemics and who knows what else that might affect my judgement of Rose; but I’ll try to answer your question assuming no major event like that takes place. I have explained what I think is the Knicks strategy. It’s a reasonable strategy but it takes time. If you are drafting and acquiring teenagers and guys in their very early twenties it could easily take four years or more for them to develop into players other teams covet. Assuming Rose doesn’t do something really stupid that means he should be fired (like give a no trade clause for no reason and then want out of it), I think he deserves four years to implement his strategy. At that point I would say at least a couple of the young guys should be really good. Probably that will mean we are in the playoffs, but things can be unpredictable even if you have good players. Such a result would be good and make me want to keep him, but that desire could be mitigated if each year the Knicks spend draft equity to undo the hires they made the previous season (like they did this year). I’m not expecting all his decisions to work out, but some decisions should work out. You don’t want to make too many such mistakes and not have winning decisions to balance them out. Does this answer your question?

    16. Speaking of spacing, I’m a bit worried that Hartenstein will be much more effective with the starters (and Brunson’s lane penetration/pick-and-roll) than our newly signed and expensive Mitch.

      Like Brunson, Obi is also excellent in the pick and roll, and those two should obviously be surrounded by shooters… I can’t help but think Brunson/Grimes/RJ/Obi/Hartenstein will become our best lineup in short order.

    17. I think what we do with RJ Barrett this summer is going to be the fulcrum of Leon’s tenure.

      Despite some blunders, we’re in decent shape. But RJ Barrett is a trap (a top 3 pick who is good but not great is minefield to navigate). I’m willing to bet on him now at the right price. But given his pedigree I doubt he’ll accept a team-friendly contract.

      I don’t see any good outcomes if he goes into the season unsigned. If he plays well, we are “forced” to max him. If he doesn’t play well, his trade value plummets. This needs to be handled now. If he won’t sign the extension we want, I’m confident there’s at least one team out there who will give us more than he’s worth (Sacramento).

    18. I don’t buy the hype that if all goes well we’re only a play-in team. I think there is more parity in the NBA than ever before and the difference between 37 wins and 50 for most teams is not that much. I think a lot of people on this site and in the general public underestimate the talent we have on this team.

      Swift, I don’t think anyone believes “if all goes well we’re only a play-in team.”

      Yesterday I said the reasonable range of outcomes for this team between 36 and 50 wins. “If all goes well,” we could make the ECF. It’s not very likely, but the potential is there.

    19. At that point I would say at least a couple of the young guys should be really good. Probably that will mean we are in the playoffs, but things can be unpredictable even if you have good players. Such a result would be good and make me want to keep him, but that desire could be mitigated if each year the Knicks spend draft equity to undo the hires they made the previous season (like they did this year). I’m not expecting all his decisions to work out, but some decisions should work out.

      i’ll take it….

      look the people on this roster isn’t some secret or something.. you know who’s here… and what the moves were… i’m trying to get a feel for whether playoffs is a reasonable expectation… most GM’s should be able to build a roster that sustainably gets into the playoffs within 4-5 years .. that’s reasonable isn’t it? especially if you’re not hinkie or presti tanking right? and even then they built sustainable playoff rosters around that mark…

      if we’re not holding Rose to the standard of building a sustainably competitive roster… with playoffs as a reasonable demarcation line…. then what standard is it? is it just getting good young players? well isn’t that tanking? what makes what Rose’s success line different than tanking? what’s going to make that better?

      i don’t expect answers to any of those questions but it seems that many hold Rose to a different standard that they hold other GM’s.. and that’s ok! we’re all attached to the knicks in some way and we cope with everyday life in different ways… but you should recognize that there are different standards when you start wagging your finger at all the tanking rhetoric but you’re turning around and saying that winning actually isn’t important for Rose..

      that doesn’t make sense to me but maybe it does to you guys… more power to ya..

    20. But RJ Barrett is a trap (a top 3 pick who is good but not great is minefield to navigate). I’m willing to bet on him now at the right price. But given his pedigree I doubt he’ll accept a team-friendly contract.

      young players tend to make their leap by age 22… just look at darius garland this year and he was straight garbage and even worse than RJ up until then….

      there’s still a large range of outcomes and a lot of those outcomes will be good… the fact that he’s not extended yet means good things and we’ll know early on roughly how much he’ll deserve… but you shouldn’t shut the book on RJ just yet… many were doing that his rookie year and looked a bit silly… this happens all the time and it’s inline with how most top prospects progress…. and giving him his bag now is a bit dangerous because even a ‘discount’ will look like an overpay if he falls flat… which absolutely is a possibility…

      just look at randle.. we don’t want another one of those contracts… there’s very little risk in seeing RJ for the season and waiting…

    21. The complicated part with RJ is that the path to a player like him — good at lots of things but great at nothing, limited athleticism (though he compensates somewhat with sheer strength), gets to the basket a lot but isn’t a great finisher nor a great free throw shooter — to become a genuine star feels very narrow. He seems to spend every summer focusing on improving one or two aspects of his game. It’s possible he’ll return in the fall a much better finisher and/or free throw shooter. Improvement in either area is not impossible (the free throw shooting in particular should be correctable), and that would substantially widen the path. But right now he seems most likely to be an Andre Iguodala jack of all trades, master of none type who will make an All-Star team at some point and can/will be an important supporting player on a good team, but who probably won’t be that team’s alpha. Do you give a guy like that the rookie max? Do you even come close?

    22. @ShamsCharania
      The Portland Trail Blazers plan to waive guard Eric Bledsoe ahead of his guarantee date approaching, sources tell @TheAthletic @Stadium. Entering his 13th NBA season, several teams are expected to pursue Bledsoe as a free agent.

      If there was any remaining hope of sending Randle or Fournier to Portland, that ship appears to have sailed. With Jerami Grant going into the McCollum trade exception (and making a Randle trade already very unlikely), Bledsoe’s salary would have been necessary to make any deal with the Knicks happen.

    23. “Barring a trade that sends out Fournier (possible, if Dallas agrees to a S&T for Brunson) or Rose (very unlikely), and assuming the roster is at full health to start the year, whom do you bench in order to play Cam, Z-Man?”

      First, I hope that one or both of Fournier and Randle is not here on opening day.

      But assuming that they are, it’s pretty common for coaches with significant roster shake-ups to play 11-12 guys until they settle in on who the best 10 are and tighten things up. I think it’s possible to play Cam 16 minutes a night for the first bunch of games simply by carving out minutes from other players.

      The two guys whose minutes I’d reduce first are Julius and RJ. Neither guy should be playing more than 30 minutes a game to start the season. (Of course, Thibs won’t do that!)

      The next guy who I’d play Cam over early on is Grimes. I know people love him here, but he’s locked up on a rookie-scale deal for the next 3 years so there’s no urgency to play him early on. While he is more likely to hit his ceiling than Cam, I believe that Cam’s physical profile gives him a higher ceiling, and that ceiling should be explored further before dumping him. I know it was a tiny sample size, but Cam actually was playing very well on both ends when he got hurt and posted a .575 TS% without being able to hit the side of a barn from 3, which is where his actual upside lies. Grimes is 6’4″ barefoot with at most a 6’8″ wingspan. That is not ideal for a 3 and he doesn’t have the ball skills of a 2.

      Finally, I’d keep Rose’s minutes to a minimum early on, make IQ Brunson’s primary back-up, and slide guys around to free up more minutes for a legit Cam look-see. I would run IQ, Grimes, Cam, Obi and Hart out there for 10-15 mpg, mixing in other guys surrounding Cam, Obi and IQ, for example Brunson, IQ, Grimes, Cam, Obi…Brunson, IQ, Cam, Obi, Mitch. Those look like fun second-unit lineups to me.

      Honestly, I don’t think doing this will lose us any games, and it might unlock some things. But alas, Thibs is gonna Thibs.

    24. All interesting ideas, Z-Man, but as you say, Thibs gonna Thibs.

      I just don’t see a landing spot for Randle right now, but in a hypothetical dream world where we are able to unload him and don’t receive a rotation player in the process, who becomes Obi’s backup? Choose your fighter:

      1)Attempt to play Cam as a smallball PF
      2)Sign a free agent big for the minimum (and pick one from this list https://www.spotrac.com/nba/free-agents/power-forward/available/)
      3)Just bring back Taj

    25. I think the key for RJ is getting the free throw percentage up to something good. 80 percent would be ideal. If he does that, I think the rest falls into place for him.

    26. “1)Attempt to play Cam as a smallball PF
      2)Sign a free agent big for the minimum (and pick one from this list https://www.spotrac.com/nba/free-agents/power-forward/available/)
      3)Just bring back Taj”

      1) I see Cam as closer to a legit 4 than a smallball 4. but either way I’d be happy trying him out as Obi’s backup.
      2) I have no interest in a free agent big on a minimum deal, it kind of works against the whole “play the kids” thing.
      3) The only exception to #2 is Taj. He’s clearly content with not being in the rotation and serving as both the OG and “break glass in case of emergency” big. Besides, he’s one lovable sob!

    27. “swiftandabundant
      July 6, 2022 at 10:59 am
      I think the key for RJ is getting the free throw percentage up to something good. 80 percent would be ideal. If he does that, I think the rest falls into place for him.”

      That would be excellent, but I don’t see it happening. I’d be fine with something in the low-mid 70s. To me, it’s things like shot selection, consistency, decision-making, finishing…he tries to do too much and plays like someone he isn’t. Keep your head up, play within yourself, be opportunistic, and make your teammates better. Those are the keys for me.

    28. PS re: Cam, all of my advocacy is contingent on him having busted his ass during this offseason and coming into camp with a stronger, tighter, higher IQ game. If he’s the same loosey-goosey entitled/immature kid who asked out of ATL because he wanted a bigger role without deserving it, claiming that he is destined to be a star without backing it up on the court and in the gym, chalk the trade up as a total loss, bury/ditch him, and move on.

    29. Macri’s newsletter today outlined the way the team as currently constructed would be, for lack of a better team, clunky and would likely underperform its talent level offensively.

      The gist of it is Brunson, RJ, and Randle all take the majority of their shots from inside the arc, and the latter two mostly miss them. The other small number of other teams with such a 2PT happy trio have guys that are way better at making the shots.

      There’s no reason for Brunson, the most productive of the three and the recent recipient of a large contract, to change his game, so either RJ has to become more of a perimeter player which contravenes his strengths or Randle has to…who the hell knows, either change a whole lot of stuff or get traded.

      But yeah, a Brunson-Fournier-Barrett-Randle-Mitch lineup will likely lead to some ugly basketball. Obi wouldn’t solve everything, but at a minimum his 2PT efficiency and off-ball energy would make the group more coherent. If his shooting from the end of the season sticks around, even better.

    30. re: Macri, I think the main point of getting Brunson is not just his skill but that he’s a high-IQ winning player who will run the offense and not defer to Julius or RJ. It would kind of be his job to maximize the efficacy of the players surrounding him. If he can’t bring out the best in Julius and RJ (and Mitch) that kind of tarnishes the signing a bit for me.

      Are Julius and RJ capable of playing off the ball a lot more without pouting? Are they going to improve their efficiency by executing when Brunson gets them the ball in their most efficient spots, either spotting up or in space cutting to the basket, or in iso mismatches? I think with Brunson in the fold, we are going to find that out. It certainly seemed possible when DRose was running the offense to close out games in 2020-21.

    31. Speaking of Macri, on his recent podcast, they were discussing CHA as a potential landing spot now that Miles Bridges will likely not be on their roster (or any NBA team’s roster for a long time.) He floated a Randle + Cam for Hayward + a lightly protected future #1. Seems like that would be a favorable deal for both sides, and I’d do it even without a pick coming back.

    32. ” don’t see any good outcomes if he goes into the season unsigned. If he plays well, we are “forced” to max him. If he doesn’t play well, his trade value plummets. This needs to be handled now. If he won’t sign the extension we want, I’m confident there’s at least one team out there who will give us more than he’s worth (Sacramento).”

      If RJ plays well this season, I will gladly deal with the contract ramifications.

      I think we all agree that RJ improving is pretty much the key to the Knicks future

    33. But right now he seems most likely to be an Andre Iguodala jack of all trades, master of none type who will make an All-Star team at some point and can/will be an important supporting player on a good team, but who probably won’t be that team’s alpha. Do you give a guy like that the rookie max? Do you even come close?

      Alan, RJ being like Iguodala would be like a 99% outcome for RJ. Getting to Rudy Gay level would be like 80%. Getting to Wiggins Level like 60%. For now, the most likely outcome would be someone like Wilson Chandler, maybe?

      I know that I am a downer with RJ, but he is the elephant in the room. You might trade Randle and no one will bat an eye, but we are married to RJ, he is going to get a big contract, he is going to shape the way as a team play, and he is (most likely) going to suck. For me, getting value for RJ is the bold move that this FO has to do. Danny Ainge turned Al Jefferson into Garnett, we don’t have to net a trade as good, but please cash in the shiny 3rd pick that gets you pointzzz for someone useful.

    34. I think we all agree that RJ improving is pretty much the key to the Knicks future

      Probably, yes, with an outside chance of Obi — another player with a really unconventional path towards stardom, but who shouldered a much heavier load in college than he’s been asked to here — being that guy who improves more than expected.

    35. Z-Man, I’d probably do that deal even without the pick (though I’d obviously prefer the pick) just to get Randle off the team. But it only makes a bigger mess of the rotation, doesn’t it? Reddish could at least theoretically back up Obi, where Hayward (when healthy) would slot into a full wing rotation. I guess you start him and RJ and use Fournier with the second unit, but then Grimes isn’t playing when the team is at full health. It’s not a reason to reject the deal out of hand, but it might be a deal that requires another deal afterwards.

    36. Alan, Reddish was included in the trade…and there’s no way that Hayward could physically handle the extreme minutes that Julius had.

    37. I know Reddish is included. My point is that Hayward is a SG/SF, not really a guy you can play at PF. (Or maybe I’m way off base about that?) So you are trading one actual PF and one guy who can perhaps play the position for someone who is (unless, again, I am wrong) only a wing. So it creates two rotation problems, even as it solves the questions of how Obi gets more minutes and how the offense functions when Julius, RJ, and Brunson are on the court at the same time.

    38. I think the possibility of Randle becoming completely untradable so much as 10 games into the season is so high I would gladly use Reddish as “sweetener” to dump his contract. We wouldn’t have a clear plan at the backup 4 slot (man I wish we drafted Eason) but a creative enough coach could patch that together with small ball minutes from RJ and Hayward.

      I really just don’t see Randle working out here unless he either rediscovers his 3PT accuracy from the empty gyms season or completely changes his style of play to mirror his LAL/NOP days. Both seem highly unlikely to me, and even if he’s willing to do the former (doubtful) there are legitimate questions as to whether he’s still physically able to play that way. Also if we want him playing that way, and I see no reason why we wouldn’t, Obi very well may be the better option at a fraction of the price anyway.

    39. “Alan, RJ being like Iguodala would be like a 99% outcome for RJ. Getting to Rudy Gay level would be like 80%. Getting to Wiggins Level like 60%. For now, the most likely outcome would be someone like Wilson Chandler, maybe?”

      This seems pretty extreme for a guy who hasn’t played an NBA minute beyond age 21 yet.

      PS If he got to 27yo Wiggins by age 22, that would be promising!

    40. “Alan
      July 6, 2022 at 12:07 pm
      I know Reddish is included. My point is that Hayward is a SG/SF, not really a guy you can play at PF. (Or maybe I’m way off base about that?) So you are trading one actual PF and one guy who can perhaps play the position for someone who is (unless, again, I am wrong) only a wing. So it creates two rotation problems, even as it solves the questions of how Obi gets more minutes and how the offense functions when Julius, RJ, and Brunson are on the court at the same time.”

      Sorry, I didn’t read your post carefully enough. Hayward isn’t a perfect answer but he’s capable of playing some minutes at the 4 and you can patch in some guys like Taj or Sims or Hart even RJ into the 4-spot. The main benefit is losing Randle and that Hayward’s contract is expiring in 2024. The PF problem would be a good one to have.

      Or you could throw someone other than Cam into the deal and let him be your backup 4. I just assumed that a guy like Michael Jordan would be intrigued by Cam, making the deal more appealing to him.

    41. If we need a PF, then we might be able to slide Hartenstein over to the 4 and play Sims at the 5. Hartenstein shows some ability to shoot and at least can pass and rebound.

      I don’t like Cam’s rebounding at the 4, but he may be passable. If you just want Cam on the court, he makes the most sense at the 4.

      Hayward can get away with playing PF, just like Cam, but it’s not ideal.

    42. ***Putting together trade offers are not out of our control. If we wanted to beat ATL, we could’ve. ***

      I was off-line during the week between the draft and free-agency, so I probably missed the discussion, but how is having Brunson better than having Murray? And if Rose is waiting for a player to use his dry powder to incinerate picks with, who is likely to come along that is more worthy than a 25 year old all-star that has improved every year and is already one of the best defensive guards in the league (and who is on a great contract as well)?

      It seems the Knicks had Brunson in their sights for months, and the thought of having Rick Brunson coach Dejounte Murray was too confusing for everybody, so they just kept with their original plan.

    43. I saw someone else on this site previously suggest adding Washington to a Hayward trade.

      What about Randle and Fournier for Hayward and Washington no picks straight up?

    44. legitimate questions as to whether he’s still physically able to play that way.

      I’m very confused by this statement. Randle is one of the strongest dudes in the league and if he comes into camp in 20/21 condition, he can absolutely play that way. Part of the reason why Thibs plays him so many minutes is he can physically handle it.

    45. Ben R, that solves the “who backs up Obi?” question, but not so much the wing rotation question, since it would leave us with six guys for four spots.

      And yet, I would again consider it because I want Randle the eff out of here by any means necessary.

    46. I think then we follow it with a Rose trade and slide IQ to the one. Leaving RJ, Grimes, Hayward, and Reddish as our wing players.

    47. “I’m very confused by this statement. Randle is one of the strongest dudes in the league and if he comes into camp in 20/21 condition, he can absolutely play that way. Part of the reason why Thibs plays him so many minutes is he can physically handle it.”

      I’m not the first person to raise this question. It has now been three full seasons since the last time Randle took over half of his shots at the rim. It’s not out of the question he can’t do at 28 what he did at 24 (take it from someone who is almost the exact same age as Julius Randle).

      Players gradually moving away from that style of play as they get older is quite common. The successful ones make up for the efficiency by becoming good 3PT shooters, the unsuccessful ones just get worse. I think it’s far from assured the only thing standing between Randle and his bruiser days is his attitude, though it’s certainly a barrier in its own right.

    48. I was in favor of the Dejounte trade even after Brunson was signed. That would have been a dynamic backcourt. I think they would have fit together nicely. I would have happily included RJ in that trade. Then focus on signing Dejounte long term, because now you don’t have to worry about RJ’s contract.

      That would have been a more interesting team with more upside, and I think Dejounte would have been a beloved Knick.

    49. i’m trying to get a feel for whether playoffs is a reasonable expectation

      If that’s what you’re trying to get at, then ask that. Yes, it’s reasonable. However, the plaoffs are neither necessary or sufficient for Rose to maintain his job.

      so what is it that you actually meant?

      You look at the moves actually made. We can’t do that without seeing how the next 2 years play out. GMs make moves, we judge them on the moves made.

      If the assets accumulated in the next 2yrs are more valuable than the assets today, whether that’s picks, young players, or a sustainable playoff team. If I can’t see the moves, I can’t give you a specific answer.

      Rose is not Hinkie-ing, but he’s continually added draft picks while drafting competent players. You’re waving your hand at accumulated picks as long as they’re less than the number of picks Presti has accumulated.

      That said, if Rose pivots and starts the process I’d also be happy and would not fire him. Your hypothetical requires us to fire Rose if he pivots to doing what 90% of the board wants him to do.

    50. Wonder if there is a S&T being worked on between Dallas and our FO and Dallas is using the threat of a tampering investigation as a negotiating tactic. You have to think if there is a S&T agreed to that it’d be hard to then hit the Knicks with tampering. So Knicks say you’ll take Fournier if you want anything at all for Brunson, but you also have to give us a 2027 protected 1st and they say we’d rather have Reddish and if you don’t agree to that then you not only won’t clear Fournier’s space but you also won’t get any draft picks from this and in fact you’ll lose a 2nd round pick as we whine all the way to Silver’s office.

    51. The key is getting a first back from Charlotte for Randle and/or Reddish. I think the FO absolutely wants to add to their war chest in order to make that move.

      Who knows? Jordan might go for it. Cam is his type of player and Randle fills a huge hole.

      That said, I can easily see us rolling with Randle, Cam, and Fournier to start the season. Fournier might be moved to the bench, with the hope that RJ and Randle will regain their shooting forms.

      It should be easier to trade Randle, Cam, and Fournier if they can get some solid games under their belts to start the season. Hopefully they will play better, and other teams could easily sustain injuries and might need replacements by the trade deadline. That is my prediction for Rose’s risk-averse FO.

    52. *** I think Dejounte would have been a beloved Knick.***

      Frank Ntilikina was a beloved Knick, and Dejounte is basically the player everybody who loved Frank prayed he would one day become.

    53. This seems pretty extreme for a guy who hasn’t played an NBA minute beyond age 21 yet.

      PS If he got to 27yo Wiggins by age 22, that would be promising!

      Iguodala and Gay were better when they were 21, Wiggins about the same level, and you could argue that current Wiggins is a high percentile projection of what 21 year old Wiggins was.

    54. Z-Man, Milo, thanks for the feedback on Keels.
      keels is def not m smart on d” – this is what i was trying to know, because if he could be Smart on D, then Thibs would find minutes for him. Probably just a G-League project, for now.

    55. I mean, it would be silly for Dallas to use the threat of a tampering charge as a negotiation tactic. The worst case if we pay a fine and give up a second rounder. If Dallas doesn’t do a sign and trade, they get nothing for losing Brunson.

    56. I don’t think a trade for Murray would’ve been smart in a vacuum, but given the strategy Rose has locked himself into I think it’s reasonable to say we should’ve done it.

      The reason I don’t think it would’ve been smart in a vacuum is because I generally don’t think it’s smart to trade a lot of assets for a guy who won’t be the best player on a contender unless you already have a best player on a contender candidate, because that obviously makes it a lot harder to get the best player. It would be like if Milwaukee traded for Holiday without having Giannis.

      Since we’re operating within the Leon Rose “sit around and wait for a trade” framework in which optimal team building is already out the window though, Rose damn well better be correct that there will be a better opportunity down the road. That’s the explicit bet he made.

      Ultimately, this is why you have to draft at least one of your high-end guys if you’re going to contend. Even the go-to examples of “hybrid” teams did this. It’s just too much to ask in terms of assets to try to trade for multiple high-end players, you’re left with nothing.

    57. I’ve used Iguodala as a blueprint for the kind of player RJ should strive to become. I personally don’t see the Maple Mamba thing (using that as a shorthand for “highest usage player on a good team”) ever working out and think his talents are best suited to being a jack-of-all-trades.

    58. I’d rather have 3 draft picks and Brunson than Murray.

      I’m not sold on Murray as a star. He’s been horribly inefficient and needs the ball in his hands.

    59. ***the most fucked up and unlucky thing that ever happened to the Knicks was when — after 30 years of shameless tanking from everyone except us — the NBA flattened the lottery odds to prevent tanking the one time we tanked. It’s hard to fathom how unlucky that really was.***

      Didn’t they announce the flattened odds before the 2017-18 season began (i.e. 18 months before the Zion/JA draft)? Not sure that can be counted as bad luck. They knew the good odds for the prior 30 years and chose not to tank; they knew the current bad odds and chose to tank. If that’s bad luck, it’s hard to fathom what dumb is.

    60. ***It would be like if Milwaukee traded for Holiday without having Giannis.***

      I get what you’re saying, but I think you are being overly conservative in the comparison. Jrue is a vet and Murray is a young player who still has a LOT of upside (he’s was one of the best guards in the league this past year and that is with a lot of room to grow his efficiency). A team in the Knicks position should want to throw assets at this kind of player. Not the KDs, Kyries, and Lillards (it pains me to say it) of the league. What player nearing the end of his second contract (i.e: in their prime and potentially available) even exists that matches what Murray brings?

    61. “What player nearing the end of his second contract (i.e: in their prime and potentially available) even exists that matches what Murray brings?”

      No one, which is one of the reasons I’m very skeptical of the Leon Rose approach. It requires so many things to fall into place.

      If you accept as a given that we will toil in mediocrity before eventually trading for a star, I think you can make a very strong argument we should’ve traded for Murray. I don’t think that “plan” is all that inspiring but it’s what Leon Rose has pretty much locked us into.

      In not trading for Murray, he’s making a bet he can use those assets to get a better player than Murray, or at least a player that is a better fit. I’ll give him the chance to pull that off before condemning the non-move because it was genuinely a lot of assets, but he’ll have egg on his face if he doesn’t.

    62. In not trading for Murray, he’s making a bet he can use those assets to get a better player than Murray, or at least a player that is a better fit. I’ll give him the chance to pull that off before condemning the non-move because it was genuinely a lot of assets, but he’ll have egg on his face if he doesn’t.

      Or, and get this, we make some of those draft picks. You know, what people here want.

    63. “Or, and get this, we make some of those draft picks. You know, what people here want.”

      Yeah, I would count drafting a better player than Murray, or drafting a number of players that in the aggregate are better for the team than Murray, as using the assets to get a better player(s) than Murray.

    64. young players tend to make their leap by age 22… just look at darius garland this year and he was straight garbage and even worse than RJ up until then….

      there’s still a large range of outcomes and a lot of those outcomes will be good… the fact that he’s not extended yet means good things and we’ll know early on roughly how much he’ll deserve… but you shouldn’t shut the book on RJ just yet… many were doing that his rookie year and looked a bit silly… this happens all the time and it’s inline with how most top prospects progress…. and giving him his bag now is a bit dangerous because even a ‘discount’ will look like an overpay if he falls flat… which absolutely is a possibility…

      I hear you. And I did say “I’d be willing to bet on RJ now for the right price.”

      What I don’t want to do is play wait-and-see. Invest in him now at the Jaylen Brown/Mikal Bridges price. If he doesn’t accept that, trade him.

      I like RJ a lot but at 5 years/$193mm our team-building would essentially be over.

      (Side note: Darius Garland was pretty good in his age 21 season.)

    65. ***I’ll give him the chance to pull that off before condemning the non-move***

      Like I said, I wasn’t tuned in to the trade and discussions surrounding it. It does appear Rose could have out-bid the Hawks, right? ATL gave up, what, two unprotected 1sts, a right to swap 1sts, and the incinerated pick? But Pop and RJ run an upstanding organization. Is it possible that they asked Murray which team he’d prefer to be traded to, and he chose Atlanta? (I know, I know, the power of the knicks fanbase, the economic chances, the allure of the garden, blahblahblah.)

    66. So now that we are done complaining that the NBA flattened the lottery odds just in time for our SECOND tank job and probably cost us Morant or Zion, maybe it’s also time to accept that the probabilities of various strategies being successful also changed, especially for large markets with deep pockets. And of course that doesn’t count the fact that the age of the players being drafted has steadily declined making it harder to evaluate the talent and possibly have to extend before you know what you have (ahem RJ),

    67. If RJ plays well this season, I will gladly deal with the contract ramifications.

      You’re minimizing a serious problem. If a top 3 pick “plays well” he’s probably going to expect a rookie max contract. I like RJ a lot but I don’t think he can ever live up to that and I don’t want to pay for his draft pedigree.

    68. Yeah, I would count drafting a better player than Murray, or drafting a number of players that in the aggregate are better for the team than Murray, as using the assets to get a better player(s) than Murray.

      Maybe I’m just in a different place on Murray. A high-volume, far below-average efficiency player likely raises the floor, but does nothing to build a contender. If he plays off-ball more, I don’t think his assist numbers justify 3 draft picks.

      Maybe he improves, maybe his efficiency regresses.

    69. Changing the subject, because I think we’ve exhausted most of this one, I’m looking forward to Summer League. Let’s see what Keels and Montero can do.

      I’m not super-high on either of them, but there’s some very high-upside outcomes for each.

    70. I’ve been talking about the potential for Hayward to NY as part of a Randle deal for months. We know for sure that Thibs and the Knicks were interested in Hayward but CHA outbid them with that crazy contract. But there are scenarios where it makes sense now. The Knicks could use a SF. RJ is more of a SG/SF. Originally I thought he might be better as a SF, but I’m starting to think facing stronger players made it harder for him to finish at the rim. So maybe in the future he should move to SF, but for now stay at SG. Moving Randle as part of a deal for Hayward opens up the PF slot for Obi. Then it’s Mitch, Obi, Hayward, RJ, and Brunson. That’s a better more balanced team with better spacing and a shorter contract than for Randle. I guess it depend who else is involved, but in principle I’m in favor of that. The worst thing that can happens is Hayward gets hurt again, but at least we’ve moved on from Randle, freed Obi, and possibly gained flexibility sooner.

    71. I think we all agree that RJ improving is pretty much the key to the Knicks future

      I do not agree. I think we’re in Porzingis territory again. I have seen enough from RJ that I would like to keep him here. But I have also seen enough to be very afraid of giving him a rookie max. That’s why I want to deal with it sooner rather than later. The key to the Knicks’ future could well be the package we get for him from someone like Sacramento.

    72. Seems we went from Burks and Kemba to Brunson, and Rose and Quickly and Mcbride and two eighteen year olds. We could run an all point guard lineup.Very small ball.

    73. Murray is also an elite defender and an excellent rebounder. He’s basically great at everything except scoring efficiency.

      Defense matters y’all!

    74. IMO, Porzingis pre ACL was better than RJ is now and had a clearer path to improvement. One of the major issues holding KP back was strength, but you knew he was going to gain some weight and strength over the next few years (and has). With KP, the risk was more about injuries than potential to be an all star caliber talent if he remained healthy. With RJ, the issue is more about his shot and lack of elite athleticism. Over time, his shot should improve, but between that and the lack of elite athleticism, his upside is probably a bit more capped and less clear. Still, I see the probability of them moving on from RJ as close to 0% UNLESS he’s part of deal with picks to bring in a clear cut star.

    75. Barring a lot of injuries, I suspect Deuce will mostly be getting run in the G-League again this season. Oh well.

    76. Seems we went from Burks and Kemba to Brunson, and Rose and Quickly and Mcbride and two eighteen year olds. We could run an all point guard lineup.Very small ball.

      Hartenstein is basically a point-center. Brunson/Rose/Quickley/Keels/Hartenstein

    77. Murray is also an elite defender and an excellent rebounder. He’s basically great at everything except scoring efficiency.

      Defense matters y’all!

      Murray’s luck-adjusted DRAPM has fallen over every 3yr period since he’s been in the league (2016-2019 the first, 2017-2020 the second). Maybe that’s playing more offense, but I would not longer describe him as an elite defender. The same thing happened to Jrue Holiday, but at a much older age.

      Murray has offset his DRAPM gains with ORAPM gains, so that he’s remained in the exact same place.

      Over the most recent 3yr period, Brunson has a better luck-adjusted RAPM than Murray. Over the previous 3yr period (2018-2021) Brunson’s RAPM was about even with Murray’s.

      Maybe Murray’s recent jump this past year shows that he’s now better than Brunson. Well, no. Brunson had a better season than Murray by luck-adjusted RAPM—on offense and defense.

      I maintain that Murray is overrated.

    78. Has anyone read Marc Stein’s newsletter today?
      He wrote a lot about Brunson, New York’s win, Dallas’ loss and the possible tampering investigation.

    79. I have not, Max. What are the most important points? Does he believe there is a chance of a sign-and-trade, or will Dallas (a team Stein knows better than any other) pursue the tampering grievance no matter what?

    80. What are the most important points?

      I think I need a two-parter due to charachter limitations :-) Part 1:

      “The Knicks got their guy. That’s frankly no small achievement for a franchise, as Dallas understands all too well through its own free agency failings in recent years, that has known mostly offseason disappointment over the past two decades.”

      “No one, though, needs Jalen Brunson to deliver as a Knick more than the team’s president of basketball operations Leon Rose.
      Consider how much the Knicks had to surrender just to put themselves in position to present a four-year contract worth nearly $105 million (plus incentives) to the only player in league history, per ESPN Stats & Info above, to receive a nine-figure contract from a new team without a single All-Star appearance. New York parted with both its No. 11 pick and the rights to No. 13 Jalen Duren on draft night, plus six future second-round picks and $6 million in cash to foist the contracts of Kemba Walker, Alec Burks and Nerlens Noel upon Detroit to clear sufficient salary-cap space to sign Brunson.”

      “Then consider this: Brunson and his father Rick, now a Knicks assistant coach, are essentially Rose family members, as we’ve noted numerous times recently, after the elder Brunson was Rose’s first client as a player agent. Rose’s son Sam, meanwhile, has replaced his father as Jalen Brunson’s day-to-day agent and will presumably earn a slice of the commission payments CAA receives for its work on the Brunson deal.

      Many millions of the Knicks’ money are thus going to three people Leon Rose is extremely close to after they made Jalen Brunson their No. 1 free agent priority. “

    81. Part 2:

      “On one hand, New York can defend itself by pointing to the roughly 30 deals reported by various news outlets in the first 30 minutes of free agency last week and argue that it didn’t do anything more out of step than several other teams in jumping-the-gun terms. The Knicks can likewise point to the fact that the last three teams to receive tampering penalties for jumping-the-gun violations in free agency (Milwaukee in 2020; Chicago and Miami in 2021) were punished after sign-and-trade (or proposed sign-and-trade) deals, while Brunson is expected to join the Knicks through an outright signing.”

      “My sense, though, is that the league is likely to take a deeper look at the hiring of Rick Brunson as an assistant to Tom Thibodeau. That move, which the Knicks still have not officially announced, was reported by SportsNet New York’s Ian Begley in early June. As Rick Brunson himself indicated in an April piece by ESPN’s Tim MacMahon, he had been actively involved in his son’s contract negotiations all season.

      I’ve been openly skeptical about the likelihood that the league office would want to put conversations between a father and son under a microscope. Yet that could depend on what it ultimately makes of New York’s hiring of Rick Brunson, who hasn’t coached in the league since leaving Thibodeau’s staff in Minnesota amid misconduct allegations after the 2017-18 season. Some in coaching circles have estimated that the Knicks plan to pay the elder Brunson a seven-figure annual sum to replace Kenny Payne, who left the club to become the head coach at Louisville. I wrote about the “very, very, very real” threat that the Knicks posed to steal Brunson away from the Mavericks on June 24, nearly a week before free agency officially began, but there appears to be more to examine here than mere jumping-the-gun talk.”

    82. And finally the most important part:

      “All that said: No penalty coming the Knicks’ way, as we’ve learned through the most recent tampering cases that docked a solitary second-round pick from the Bucks, Bulls and Heat, is going to prevent Brunson from landing with the Knicks.”

    83. Marcus Smart was a high lottery pick when he came out, Keels was like the 5th best player on his own (admittedly stacked) team.

      I’m looking forward to watching this Montero kid, the limited film I’ve seen of him is pretty interesting, he’s like a bargain bin Steph Curry at this point.

    84. By that I mean he’s about the same size and he seems to get by an his movement skills and smarts more than explosive athleticism. He has rebounded very well for a slight guard who can’t jump, etc. He looks like he’s able to create3s off the dribble he just can’t make them. very much a project, but we don’t have a lot of intriguing new guys on the summer league team.

    85. Montero is a fun gamble because there was a time he was considered a future lottery pick, and as best I can tell it’s not really his play that lost him that status. He’s just primarily played in a bunch of lesser known leagues. As best I can tell he was pretty good in the lower Liga ACB league compared to other guys who have played there like Bolmaro. He dominated the OTE, but who the hell knows what that portends?

      In all likelihood he’ll put on some fun summer league and G-League performances and not amount to anything, but he’s a more intriguing UDFA signing than most.

    86. The Bradley Beal contract has a full no-trade clause, which apparently only 9 or 10 NBA players have ever had. That worked out really well for the Knicks with Melo, didn’t it?

    87. Stein says Brunson deal won’t be completed today. Makes me think they’re at least negotiating a S&T… or dodging tampering charges.

    88. Things we could potentially get out of a S&T with Dallas:

      1. Make the tampering charge go away, and ease hostilities with a franchise with which we may have to do business again in the future
      2. Unload the Fournier contract on them (apparently, Frankie Smokes would have to come back here in such a deal)
      3. Unload Julius Randle on them (not sure what we’d have to take back to make the math work, given Base Year Compensation
      4. Attach Cam Reddish to the deal but require an asset in return for adding him

      Is that it? Dallas would be getting a TPE out of it, and potentially a player of some kind. What’s the best we could get, besides Brunson himself? I don’t think a trade with Randle in it is likely, so what’s everyone’s favorite realistic outcome from a sign-and-trade here?

    89. @IanBegley
      Multiple teams have expressed interest in NYK’s Taj Gibson during FA period. Gibson’s contract for next year is fully non-guaranteed. NYK could waive Gibson to create cap space for Brunson or acquire Brunson via S&T. His NYK teammates have roundly praised Gibson over past 3 years

      I will never object to having Taj on the roster, but it only makes sense to bring him back this year if Randle is going elsewhere. We have three centers, all of whom have arguments to play, and we have 2-3 PFs (depending on how you classify Cam).

    90. Related:

      @FredKatz
      Knicks have the option to waive Gibson independent of if it’s to clear cap space, too. They have three centers and two power forwards without him and roster isn’t even full yet. Contract doesn’t fully guarantee until January. Could also waive him & sign to a minimum.

    91. Re: Deuce, he was among the worst players in the NBA, last season. And then dominated the G-League. Unless he improves a lot this season, we should be prepared for Deuce to be just one of those players that dominates lower leagues but can’t make it on the big league. I’m rooting for him, but the first year wasn’t very inspiring.

    92. Things we could potentially get out of a S&T with Dallas

      I assume your preference is to unload Randle. Mine is, for sure. ;)
      For this to happen, and assuming a decreasing contract for Brunson, he’ll make around 27.8M in the first year. That means 13.9M for Dallas, and if they add Powell (11M), the total is 24.9M. We send them Randle (23.7M) so it’s all legal from Dallas pov. Brunson for the Knicks means 27.8M and that works in a trade for Randle. So Powell needs to be sent to a 3rd team. He’s expiring, 2 seconds probably gets the deal done. Who sends the picks, us or Dallas?

    93. McBride is not an NBA point guard, not even close. Has zero ability in the pick and roll and zero ability to beat an opposing defender off the dribble.

      He’s a poor man’s Frank Ntilikina, a fringe prospect at best.

    94. McBride is not an NBA point guard, not even close. Has zero ability in the pick and roll and zero ability to beat an opposing defender off the dribble.

      He’s a poor man’s Frank Ntilikina, a fringe prospect at best.

      I’d be interested in watching Keels run the point with McBride at the 2, cross-matching on defense.

    95. Cybersoze, the knock on Keels’ defense is that a really quick guard can get a first step on him and blow by him. But he’s also considered 17 pounds (IIRC) overweight by NBA standards. If he loses that extra weight he will be quicker, and it that should improve his defense. Also, some of getting blown by is lack of anticipation. So I think he has a chance to be really good on defense.

    96. “#Sources — Hornets have reached out to Atlanta on the availability of PF John Collins. #NBA”

      I don’t know if this is true, but it makes sense and is competition for a Randle trade.

    97. “He’s a poor man’s Frank Ntilikina, a fringe prospect at best.”

      lmao

      Frank is back in Dallas. Stick kicking.

    98. “2. Unload the Fournier contract on them (apparently, Frankie Smokes would have to come back here in such a deal)”

      I miss the days of Frank bricking layups, scoring 2 points on 1-6 shooting and being a team best +10. :-)

    99. Frank is back in Dallas. Stick kicking.

      Yeah, so a “poor man’s” version of a scrub who floats around as the 11th man for a while on a $2M contract seems to fit the definition of “fringe prospect” to me, IDK

    100. There’s a tiny chance Dallas might have interest in Randle only because losing Brunson for absolutely nothing would be pretty brutal. Even without Brunson they don’t have much salary flexibility for the foreseeable future, and that’s without taking into account re-signing Wood.

      If we tell them it’s Randle or nothing, they just might prefer to roll the dice on Randle. It’s kind of similar to the way the Warriors took on D’Lo instead of letting Durant walk for nothing.

      Probably not though, which is pretty telling as to Randle’s value. Dallas would probably not take him for free.

    101. Kenneth Lofton is figuratively eating Chet Holmgren’s lunch. Perhaps literally too

    102. I imagine there’s a delegation of the Knick brass that would like to send Randle to Dallas as part of the sign and trade, and that Dallas would take him if he was available, but Rose won’t do it because it’s bad optics and he’s trying to build culture through continuity.

    103. I think Dallas would love to have Randle for free. I don’t think the Knicks want to give him away.

    104. Randle acted like an ass on the court a number of times last year. I think it’d be good “culture” to dump his bad attitude.

      Now, if he sticks around, I’ll root for him to turn it around and become root-worthy again. He’ll have to give up his point forward aspirations.

    105. How long do they have to turn it into a sign and trade?

      Idk, preseason?

      The only relevant deadline just became irrelevant. Knicks PR announced the Kemba deal, so we’re officially under the cap and lose the full MLE and possibility of a TPE. The deal needed to be done by SL so Duren could play.

      Don’t think there’s any pressing deadline.

    106. Taj probably has a waiver deadline (couldn’t find it). If he’s not waived that will affect the contract structures we can offer Brunson & Hartenstein.

    107. Dallas is capped out the next two years. Do you really think they would pass on adding Randle for those two seasons just so they can maintain cap flexibility for the summer of 2024? No way. They would take Randle. It’s us.

    108. Real nice rally by the Mets tonight. Losing 2 in a row to the Reds and having Atlanta close to 1.5 back would have been a bummer.

    109. ***They would take Randle. It’s us.***

      Yeah, I’m apt to agree.

      ***Randle acted like an ass on the court a number of times last year. I think it’d be good “culture” to dump his bad attitude.***

      I think the Rose/Wes Doctrine involves honoring agreements made to players that sign long term here. That’s the culture change they are promoting, which is a change from the typical grass-is-always-greener reputation of Dolanites.

    110. A more important question might be does Randle want to be here? Dallas may want him. We might be open to moving him but won’t if he really wants to be here. But I find it hard Leon wouldn’t trade him if he didn’t want to be here. And if he wants to be here then you gotta think he’s more open to changing and proving last season was just a bad one.

      See I don’t buy that he’s a lost cause selfish diva. He certainly didn’t play like one the previous season. I think he wanted help after the playoff loss to Atlanta. And we tried to give it to him but the moves we made last off season were the wrong ones that didn’t really help the team. Kemba and Fournier destroyed our defense. And I think the high expectations and the help not being there got to Randle, among other things. Then the stuff with the fans started and it just kind of spiraled out of control.

      So if he wants to be here and give this another shot, the. I don’t think we’ll trade him. But if Dallas wants him and he wants out, I think Leon would have to be crazy to say no you’re part of our plans and we’re going to keep you.

    111. Yeah, if Randle wants to leave that’s different. I think Rose and Wes come at this from the players side and think backwards from there. If they didn’t, what would be the point of hiring them (vs some moreyesque asset manager). It’s even possible that they won Mitch Robinson’s trust by NOT trading him at the deadline (and risking losing him for nothing), no? He seemed to be leaning toward leaving a few months ago because he and the FO “weren’t on firm ground” per reports.

    112. The idea that we won’t trade Randle because it might upset him is ridiculous. We just traded Noel and Burks to Detroit. Do you really think they wanted that? Do you think we asked?

      We owe no more to Randle than we do them in fact we owe Randle less because he burned bridges and acted like a petulant child last season.

      Burks seemed willing to play whatever role we wanted and Noel was willing to shut it down after the all-star break to help the team. They were much better teammates and we shipped them off with zero fanfare.

      I am all for trying to trade Randle somewhere he wants to go, within reason, but we are not and should not be beholden to his preferences.

    113. ***The idea that we won’t trade Randle because it might upset him is ridiculous. We just traded Noel and Burks to Detroit. Do you really think they wanted that? Do you think we asked?***

      There’s a difference between a 4-year franchise contract and a 2 1 backup contract. The FO wants to lure franchise players, not bench filler. So treating them as people and not as chess pieces is important.

      When Randle took the $117mil extension rather than waiting until now for a $200mil contract he may have known he had peaked and needed to cash in. Or, alternatively, Rose may have convinced him that it was in their mutual interest to lock in the deal to build a competitive team together. If the former, he’ll probably be a Maverick by the end of the week. If the latter, it would be regime suicide to ship him off.

    114. I would maybe buy that argument if Randle had been a great teammate and sacrificed for the team but any loyalty that our management might owe Randle went out the window last year when he feuded with fans, played selfish basketball, and got into it with the coaching staff. We owe him nothing.

    115. I agree that we technically owe Julius nothing. And this is a business, tough decisions sometimes have to be made. The best GMs don’t get sentimental about trades. Now if there are multiple similar options and you want to defer to the player’s wishes, sure. But if the goal is to trade him for the betterment of the team, you trade him to whoever wants him and gives you the best return (or needs the least in return.) Whatever Rose told him during negotioations, it was the prudent move for Julius given the uncertainty of a better contract. I don’t think he took the extension to do the Knicks a favor.

    116. Not to mention, if he didn’t take the money, what could he get right now if he was a UFA? Even if he was sweettalked into it by Leon, Julius made out like a bandit with that extension.

    117. “Early Bird
      July 6, 2022 at 8:47 pm
      Kenneth Lofton is figuratively eating Chet Holmgren’s lunch. Perhaps literally too”

      I guess we’ll have to hold off a bit on the DPOY hype…

    118. I heard he was on his way to being the GOAT… after ONE SUMMER LEAGUE GAME! LOL

    119. Here’s the thing. Yes, the Knicks have paid Randle very handsomely now with two contracts. And last season was bad. But he did come here when absolutely no one would and has carried the burden of being our franchise player. He dragged us to the 4th seed and our first winning season in a decade. And he’s played the entire time with either no PG, elfrid Payton or a super washed Kemba Walker. And the most important thing. Randle is actually a very talented basketball player! Like I think some of you kind of take it for granted that he can put up 20 points and grab 10 boards in his sleep. People are clamoring for OBI and I want him to play more minutes too. I also want him and Randle to play some together. But be careful what you wish for wanting Randle gone. And maybe the FO feels like they owe it to him AND to himself to see how he would play with a legit, in his prime PG who is good on offense and also not a total drive in defense. When he got here we had no PG and like 8 power forwards. Then we had elf who gave decent defense and zero offense. We got rose and looked like a good team. Kemba could basically only shoot threes. He couldn’t break down a defense anymore by driving into the paint like he used to and he got absolutely scorched on defense. Rose got hurt and IQ had a steep learning curve at PG. I don’t know. People want to paint him as this selfish guy. Maybe he was just frustrated and a real PG can bring out the best in him?

    120. I just read the P&T feature article on Jean Montero and watched the highlight reels and the personal life story video. He’s a great story and you come away wanting the kid to be successful somewhere in the NBA. He’s got talent but he’s still a long way away.

      PS the Overtime Elite video is notable for the lol announcers.

    121. swift, sure but all of that has to be separated from the business end. If Leon decides that there’s not a deal out there for him that makes sense, or that he doesn’t want to deal him at all, fine, but he has to eat the consequences if things backfire.

      That said, I hear you you re: the Obi hype. He certainly earned a chance to see what he can do in extended minutes, and given how hard he works, having 6 months to polish his game should pay off. He definitely got better on D and rebounding in a small sample of games at the end of the year, and the 3 started falling. I haven’t seen any convincing evidence that Obi can be a productive starter on a playoff team. But I’ve seen enough to want to find out more, and Julius can’t get in the way of that. You invested a #8 pick in Obi and just signed 2 centers that make an Obi-Julius pairing unlikely. So either you have to play Julius much less, or trade either him or Obi. My strong preference would be to trade Julius regardless of how it impacts winning this year.

    122. I don’t think “maybe he was just frustrated” defines Randle’s antics last season.

    123. cyber, the antics re: thumbs down, slapping the clipboard, walking out of the huddle didn’t bother me much. It’s simply the poor play that turned me on Julius, and Thibs’ enabling of him. I’m fine with giving it another shot if that’s what the FO decides, but the leash will be very short for me as a fan. My preference is to move him, but if it doesn’t happen, my next preference is to give him a small window to rehabilitate his value and show that he can be a productive player with Brunson in the fold.

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