Knicks Morning News (2022.06.29)

  • NBA Free Agency Primer: Knicks Outlook, Possible Fits – The Knicks Wall
    [theknickswall.com] — Wednesday, June 29, 2022 6:55:11 AM

    NBA Free Agency Primer: Knicks Outlook, Possible Fits  The Knicks Wall

  • NBA rumors: Knicks to pursue Dejounte Murray too? – Hoops Hype
    [hoopshype.com] — Wednesday, June 29, 2022 3:39:01 AM

    NBA rumors: Knicks to pursue Dejounte Murray too?  Hoops Hype

  • Knicks to offer Jalen Brunson $110 million deal? – Hoops Hype
    [hoopshype.com] — Wednesday, June 29, 2022 3:23:41 AM

    Knicks to offer Jalen Brunson $110 million deal?  Hoops Hype

  • TSN Archives: Walt Frazier leads Knicks in style (Feb. 14, 1970) – Sporting News
    [www.sportingnews.com] — Wednesday, June 29, 2022 1:00:03 AM

    TSN Archives: Walt Frazier leads Knicks in style (Feb. 14, 1970)  Sporting News

  • NBA Rumors: Jalen Bronson is now expected to sign with the Knicks. PJ Tucker is likely to join the Sixers – Lanka Times
    [www.lankatimes.com] — Wednesday, June 29, 2022 12:38:19 AM

    NBA Rumors: Jalen Bronson is now expected to sign with the Knicks. PJ Tucker is likely to join the Sixers  Lanka Times

  • NBA Free Agency: How much money can the Detroit Pistons spend? – Detroit Bad Boys
    [www.detroitbadboys.com] — Wednesday, June 29, 2022 12:20:31 AM

    NBA Free Agency: How much money can the Detroit Pistons spend?  Detroit Bad Boys

  • The Desperate Knicks, UFC 276, Plus Kyrie’s Failed Lakers Play With Van Lathan, Big Wos, Ariel Helwani, and A? – The Ringer
    [www.theringer.com] — Wednesday, June 29, 2022 12:16:29 AM

    The Desperate Knicks, UFC 276, Plus Kyrie’s Failed Lakers Play With Van Lathan, Big Wos, Ariel Helwani, and A?  The Ringer

  • SNAPSHOT: Utica Lady Knicks Premier League underway – Rome Sentinel
    [romesentinel.com] — Tuesday, June 28, 2022 11:50:00 PM

    SNAPSHOT: Utica Lady Knicks Premier League underway  Rome Sentinel

  • Knicks dump Noel, Burks to clear cap space for Brunson, rotation logjam – Yardbarker
    [www.yardbarker.com] — Tuesday, June 28, 2022 11:44:18 PM

    Knicks dump Noel, Burks to clear cap space for Brunson, rotation logjam  Yardbarker

  • Could Knicks Be Mystery East Dejounte Murray Trade Suitor? – NBA Analysis Network
    [nbaanalysis.net] — Tuesday, June 28, 2022 9:22:03 PM

    Could Knicks Be Mystery East Dejounte Murray Trade Suitor?  NBA Analysis Network

  • Atlantic Rumors: Tucker, Sixers, Knicks, Robinson, Nets – hoopsrumors.com
    [www.hoopsrumors.com] — Tuesday, June 28, 2022 6:56:00 PM

    Atlantic Rumors: Tucker, Sixers, Knicks, Robinson, Nets  hoopsrumors.com

  • Latest Julius Randle-Knicks trade rumors might not be what fans want to hear – Daily Knicks
    [dailyknicks.com] — Tuesday, June 28, 2022 5:00:00 PM

    Latest Julius Randle-Knicks trade rumors might not be what fans want to hear  Daily Knicks

  • Knicks’ RJ Barrett eligible for contract extension on July 1, but questions loom about dollar figures – AMNY
    [www.amny.com] — Tuesday, June 28, 2022 4:02:50 PM

    Knicks’ RJ Barrett eligible for contract extension on July 1, but questions loom about dollar figures  AMNY

  • The Knicks-Mitchell Robinson contract conundrum – Newsday
    [www.newsday.com] — Tuesday, June 28, 2022 3:50:06 PM

    The Knicks-Mitchell Robinson contract conundrum  Newsday

  • New York Knicks shopping Cam Reddish, could Milwaukee Bucks be a fit? – Behind the Buck Pass
    [behindthebuckpass.com] — Tuesday, June 28, 2022 1:00:00 PM

    New York Knicks shopping Cam Reddish, could Milwaukee Bucks be a fit?  Behind the Buck Pass

  • Who can spend the most in NBA free agency? Knicks, Pistons among five teams with highest cap space this summer – CBS Sports
    [www.cbssports.com] — Tuesday, June 28, 2022 10:58:00 AM

    Who can spend the most in NBA free agency? Knicks, Pistons among five teams with highest cap space this summer  CBS Sports

  • Can Knicks’ front office be trusted after first half of 2022? – Daily Knicks
    [dailyknicks.com] — Tuesday, June 28, 2022 8:00:00 AM

    Can Knicks’ front office be trusted after first half of 2022?  Daily Knicks

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    270 thoughts to “Knicks Morning News (2022.06.29)”

    1. Some thoughts about the recent moves:
      1 – looks like it was relatively easy to dump money, so last offseason signings were not that bad; 6 seconds, with 1 good (DET), 2 that could be good (ours, if we manage to screw things up again), 2 bad (MIA/DAL and UTA) and 1 worthless (top55 protected); and all that for 3 dumps (Kemba, Burks and Noel);
      2 – although it’s a little expensive for my liking, i’m comfortable with Brunson at 4/110M; we need good players; now i just hope he doesn’t meltdown like Randle did;
      3 – looks like the Knicks decided to give Mitch the money he wants; it’s RWIII’s money (4/48M) and i think it’s a good deal for both the team and the player; he’ll be definitely tradable at this figure;
      4 – EB is right about us luring Dallas to a s&t and keep being above the cap, to have the full MLE (10.3M) and a TPE (9M) from Kemba’s dump; We’re too smart to not do this, below the cap we’d have less money to throw around;
      5 – Yeah, i still think we’re at least one move away; Assuming they’re hell bent on trying to rehabilitate Randle, which they certainly are, we need to move Fournier; He’s a disaster at defense, he needs to go; Quick and Grimes is a much more valuable pairing at SG, now and for the future;
      6 – Quick deserves to start ahead of Grimes, but some of you have Grimes as the starting SG if Fournier goes? Is it because height? IQ is 6’3 and Grimes is 6’5! The east is big, man? LOL

    2. Grimes is also a better defender, especially at point of attack, and doesn’t require the ball in his hands as much as IQ does, Cyber. He’s a better complementary piece in a lineup with several high usage guys.

    3. So no one cares for Malik Monk? It would be a disaster for the Lakers, and it might make Cdiggy happy.

    4. Jake Fischer’s pre free agency notebook: https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10040325-latest-nba-free-agency-intel-buzz-on-dame-lillard-jalen-brunson-malik-monk-more

      The Knicks are also gauging the market for Evan Fournier and Cam Reddish takers. On Tuesday night, Dejounte Murray started to be mentioned by league personnel as the next New York target alongside Brunson, as first reported by Marc Stein. However, that would seem to run counterintuitive to the Knicks’ pitch of Brunson running his own team.

      It’s believed Mitchell Robinson will return to New York on a four-year deal that nears $60 million in total earnings.

      4/60 is definitely at the high end of Mitch’s projection, but also not that far above the 4/55 we could have negotiated during the season. I don’t hate it, but like Macri I wonder about the structure, including incentives, nature of the 4th year, etc.

    5. Would Dallas take Fournier in a sign and trade for Brunson? Is that too much to hope for?

      I mean, Dallas is going to need scoring. Fournier can hit 3’s real good off of Luka creating open looks.

      I’m not as big on getting rid of Randle (for now) although I am certainly not opposed to it either. But for me I’d just like us to find a way to unload at least one of Fournier or Randle. If we can do that as part of a sign and trade with Dallas, this off season would officially start looking pretty damn good.

      I just wonder what the next big move is beyond Brunson. Are we gonna make a play for Murray or (gasp) Mitchell?

    6. Alan: 4/60 is definitely at the high end of Mitch’s projection, but also not that far above the 4/55 we could have negotiated during the season. I don’t hate it, but like Macri I wonder about the structure, including incentives, nature of the 4th year, etc.

      I think it’s an overpay given the market, where else is he going to get that money now that DET doesn’t need him? Who are we bidding against?

      But in regard to what we could have offered before the season, if the cost of waiting until he proved that he was fully recovered from foot surgery and capable of playing a full season without breaking down is around an extra $1 mill AAV, that’s fine, I guess.

    7. Alan:
      Grimes is also a better defender, especially at point of attack, and doesn’t require the ball in his hands as much as IQ does, Cyber. He’s a better complementary piece in a lineup with several high usage guys.

      IQ’s defense is underrated. He’s very disruptive with those long arms and quick feet. Grimes is more physical but I really like IQ’s D overall and think that he’s at least comparable to Grimes if not better.

    8. Alan: Grimes is also a better defender, especially at point of attack, and doesn’t require the ball in his hands as much as IQ does, Cyber. He’s a better complementary piece in a lineup with several high usage guys.

      Ok, that’s fair. Then IQ will be our 6th man of the year candidate. ;)

    9. 4/60 is definitely at the high end of Mitch’s projection, but also not that far above the 4/55 we could have negotiated during the season. I don’t hate it, but like Macri I wonder about the structure, including incentives, nature of the 4th year, etc.

      when it comes to players resigning, the initial leaks often err toward he player (agent). nearly 4/60 could easily end up being like 4/50 plus $~5-6m in a varying incentives.

    10. I think it’s an overpay given the market, where else is he going to get that money now that DET doesn’t need him? Who are we bidding against?

      I mean, Z-Man, come on! We were paying Mitch pennies these last few years. Can’t we throw him a few extra bones to make him happy?

    11. Swifty, I want Randle gone by any means necessary (other than attaching a first or a young player I like), for the following reasons:

      1. Obi needs to play much more, and I do not believe Thibs will be willing to do that unless he has no other options.
      2. Randle is too ball dominant on a team where Brunson will now need the ball in his hands a lot (and is much better with it in his handles than Randle).
      3. Barring a significant return to 2020-21 form in his shooting, Randle does not space the floor well on a team that is also going to be starting a center who only dunks, a SF whose shooting is hot and cold and has issues finishing at the cup, and a PG with a CP3-ish fondness for long 2s.
      4. Barring a significant return to 2020-21 form in his attitude, Randle should not be anywhere near a team where he is clearly not The Man, nor even arguably the number two Man.

      Go away, Julius Randle. Please.

    12. Mitch at 4/60M is a little bit too much for my liking, but it’s the same with Brunson. We need good players and they’re good, although a little overpaid. And if we manage to do a s&t with Dallas and keep being over the cap, it’s only Dolan’s money, so who cares? :D
      Ok, ok, i know they’ll be harder to trade if we need to, at those values, but still tradable, i think.

    13. Looks like we’re trying to trade Randle. I’ve already put the champagne on the fridge.

    14. Swifty is also right from a human perspective. Mitch was severely underpaid for four years because of various bits of bad advice from the ever-changing list of people in his camp. Now he’s going to be slightly underpaid. As someone who has gotten much enjoyment during the underpaid years watching him throw down lobs and block three-point attempts, I’m fine with him being slightly overpaid for the next few years.

    15. 1. I can’t see the Knicks going after Murray. He’s not an efficient scorer and a good part of his value is as a playmaker. Our pitch to Brunson is that he’s running the show. If we take the ball away from Murray he loses some value and if they share it, will Brunson be happy? We need an upgrade on Fournier. Or, maybe Fournier will benefit a lot from a real PG getting him open looks instead of having to create his own tougher shots all the time. IMO, Fournier’s TS% will rise.

      2. Brunson’s secondary value is that the Knicks now look more attractive to stars. If a star becomes available at the deadline or next year, he’s going to look at the Knicks and say, “I like what they are building over there and I can make a difference on that team”.

      3. As of now, we have a ton of pick ammo, Rose will be coming off next year, Cam and Fournier will done after next year, and Taj is still out there. So we could generate a lot of space if we absolutely had too. What we might have to hope for is that a couple of our young players that don’t figure to be starters look really good and can be part of a trade in case we go the trade route.

      4. I’m not sure what to expect from this team next year. I think one key will be how effectively Brunson can penetrate and finish on a team with less space overall and Mitch’s defender in the area. And when he does penetrate and draw a defender, can RJ, Randle, Obi, Fournier etc.. knock down open 3s when he dishes out in order to give everyone more space? I’m pretty sure he’ll find Mitch on lobs when they are available.

    16. swiftandabundant: I mean, Z-Man, come on! We were paying Mitch pennies these last few years. Can’t we throw him a few extra bones to make him happy?

      As I said, I’m fine with it but objectively given the current market it feels like an overpay of about $2-4mill AAV. But maybe he improves in some way and it becomes worth it. Not a big issue either way, it’s kind of like the Fournier deal, which I was also fine with but thought was an overpay.

    17. Knick fan not in NJ: So no one cares for Malik Monk? It would be a disaster for the Lakers, and it might make Cdiggy happy.

      Right now? That’d be madness. Maybe if we manage to trade Fournier and DRose, he could be coming off the bench at SG behind Grimes, and Quick would be at PG behind Brunson, but unless we shed the vets there’s no place for him here. Oh, and we need the money (MLE) to address other issues, hopefully for a backup PF if we manage to trade Randle.

    18. Alan:
      Swifty is also right from a human perspective. Mitch was severely underpaid for four years because of various bits of bad advice from the ever-changing list of people in his camp. Now he’s going to be slightly underpaid. As someone who has gotten much enjoyment during the underpaid years watching him throw down lobs and block three-point attempts, I’m fine with him being slightly overpaid for the next few years.

      But he also was underpaid because he reneged on a college commitment, went off the grid for a year, and didn’t show up at the pre-draft combine. He was also responsible for choosing his agents. I get the love for his game, but I have zero sympathy for him being underpaid, it was totally of his own doing, not some diabolical scam by the FO. That said, I’m glad that he made good and is getting fairly compensated for it.

    19. I think with an actual PG out there, Mitch will be a lot more productive (ie lobs and dunks and putbacks)

    20. I would ultimately like to trade Randle too. But if we do, then we definitely need to pick up another big man, preferably a bruiser type. Obi starting will be fun. We can get out and run, throw lobs to him and Mitch, etc. But there are nights we’re going to face strong dudes like Randle and Obi could potentially get eaten alive. We’re going to need a solid back up PF (not just Taj, no offense) who can fill that role.

    21. Can we refer to Brunson as more of a thing/object… not in like a derogatory way by any means…

      I was just typing to a friend that we “ended up with 3 future 1sts and a Brunson”… and despite the error i just thought that it had a ring to it, and it kinda works because he’s technically our 2nd Brunson…

      starting PG: The Brunson / A Brunson
      etc. etc…

      food for thought…

    22. I didn’t say it was a diabolical scam by the FO. But kid was super young when he signed that contract. He’s clearly matured some but whether he was dumb or not to sign that first contract, he still was super underpaid and you can’t act like it wouldn’t be human nature to have resentment about it, even if it was partly his own doing. So throwing a few extra bones at him now so he can feel like he’s getting well paid his worth, it feels right to me.

    23. Again, this is my cart before the horse specialty, but if we do move Randle, these are Hollinger’s rankings of the free agent PFs (leaving aside Bridges, whom we can’t afford, and Otto Porter and Slo-Mo, whom we can’t afford if Hollinger is right that they’ll get more than the mid-level):

      Our old friend Gallo
      TJ Warren
      Thad Young
      Derrick Jones Jr
      PJ Tucker
      Trey Lyles (Walt Perrin connection)
      Taurean Prince (also a Perrin connection)
      Jeff Green
      Marvin Bagley
      Juancho Hernangomez (only if he brings Bo Cruz’s game with him)

      And then a bunch of random guys like Jalen Smith, Bol Bol, Eric Paschall, etc. All on the longer list above have their warts, but that is why they would be backups to Obi, who would be playing big minutes. And in case of emergency, we could bring back Taj or, god help us all — and I cannot emphasize enough how much I do not want this to happen — sign Melo for a 10 minutes a night victory lap season.

    24. If we sign Jalen Brunson, we can’t afford to dump Evan Fournier. He is going to be one of the most important players on the team.

      According to Kevin Pelton’s free agency primer:

      “Brunson benefited from the shooting the Mavericks put around him. A majority of his minutes in the regular season came with four capable 3-point shooters spacing the floor, a luxury Brunson won’t enjoy if he signs with the spacing-challenged New York Knicks.

      The backcourt should be Evan and Brunson with IQ backing up both. That is a strong three-man rotation.

      RJ needs to find his shooting touch again to hold down the wing; we should be ready to replace him with Grimes if he doesn’t.

      Not having one big who can shoot is going to hurt a lot. I’d love to find a way to add our old friend, the Rooster (i.e. Gallo).

    25. From Alan’s list, my option would be Jalen Smith (only 22yo), although he needs to improve at 3P shooting. He sure looked to be improving in Indiana at the end of last season.

      And there’s 2 players to remove from the list.

      Taurean Prince is returning to the Timberwolves on a two-year, $16MM extension, ESPN’s Adrian Wojnarowski tweets.

      The Kings have officially picked up Lyles’ option, per RealGM’s transactions log.

    26. cybersoze:
      Looks like we’re trying to trade Randle. I’ve already put the champagne on the fridge.

      What have you read?

    27. Swifty, I do not want it. In any way. The Melo era was so goddamn miserable, other than that one season. But I also wouldn’t be shocked if they do it. But only if Randle is gone.

      Which again brings back my unanswered question from the earlier thread about whose offensive game is less pleasant to watch: Melo’s endless jab-stepping leading into a contested long 2, or Randle’s endless dribbling and spinning leading into a contested long 2?

    28. “Brunson benefited from the shooting the Mavericks put around him. A majority of his minutes in the regular season came with four capable 3-point shooters spacing the floor, a luxury Brunson won’t enjoy if he signs with the spacing-challenged New York Knicks.”

      This is the issue I raised earlier in the thread.

      It’s a two way street.

      Brunson may have less space to operate to score himself, but guys like RJ, Randle, Obi, Fournier, Quick, Grimes etc… will benefit when he does penetrate and kick out. They’ll get more open looks than they had last year when they were forced to try to create something off the dribble more often than was ideal. If they knock those shots down (especially RJ, Randle/Obi), then suddenly there is more space.

    29. Randle’s game is way less aesthetic than Melo’s because he’s never been as good as peak Melo

    30. swiftandabundant:
      sign Melo for a 10 minutes a night victory lap season.

      I mean….

      I don’t like pineapple on my pizza. Why ruin what is starting to feel like a good off season?

    31. Memo’s game was worse to watch because he was less likely to pass to someone

    32. Alan:
      Swifty, I do not want it. In any way. The Melo era was so goddamn miserable, other than that one season. But I also wouldn’t be shocked if they do it. But only if Randle is gone.

      Which again brings back my unanswered question from the earlier thread about whose offensive game is less pleasant to watch: Melo’s endless jab-stepping leading into a contested long 2, or Randle’s endless dribbling and spinning leading into a contested long 2?

      Randle’s for sure. At least Melo had a beautiful looking shooting form. Randle has that clunky lefty leaner that never looks pure.

    33. One thing about signing Brunson to be the lead guard is that his game is going to change from Dallas, where he was secondary ball handler and playmaker. He may suffer a bit in three point percentage if our team remains spacing-challenged but I think he’s going to look more like a bona fide PG this year than we’ve ever seen from him before (like pt mentioned, his per 100 stats with no luka are 30 pts 10 assists, which is obviously lead guard material even if those are inflated)

    34. >>Not having one big who can shoot is going to hurt a lot. I’d love to find a way to add our old friend, the Rooster (i.e. Gallo).<<

      Gallo is being mentioned in trade rumors and as a buyout candidate. If he gets traded, he may get bought out anyway. The one problem with bringing him back to NY is that he said he wants one last shot with a contender before he goes back to Italy to play. Maybe, he'd make an exception to play in NY. But I think if some contender could get him real cheap there's going to be a market for him.

    35. Also Melo got rebounds often because they were his own misses. Randle seems to have more touch around the basket and I like his rebounding overall.

      And while we are on the subject of Randle, if we trade him we better get something good. Power forward is a strength of ours at the moment. Why make it less so if we don’t get something back.

    36. Cgreene – to your cap question re trading randle… it depends a bit on the staring salary for Brunson. Assuming we have 30m now, or 35m if we waive Taj. Trading randle out is 24m. Dallas trading Brunson counts as half his starting salary going out. This could be 13-14.5m if you believe the 4/110 rumour and depending on if it’s escalating, flat, or reducing (which some commentators think it will be).

      Dallas can take back 125% of what it sends out, so they need to send out about 19m. That means adding at least 4.5-6m to Brunson to get a match. So in effect we’re likely to be taking back around 32-34m in salary – more if Dallas has to add a more expensive player because they can’t get to exactly the right amount.

      Once you add it all up, I think you get to around 20m in leftover space, rising to about 25m if you waive taj, +/- 2-3m depending on details we don’t know yet.

      Hope that helps.

    37. That is a tough call. The bad Melo years ended up lasting a lot longer. I enjoyed the first burst of the Woodson era after he took over from Dantoni and the 54 season was really fun…until the end. But even the following season…Melo himself was great but the team was so frustrating to watch. And then after that it was 3 more painful to watch seasons.

      Randle hasn’t been here as long. And I truly do appreciate the 20-21 season and what he did. But yeah, I think overall Melo was better to watch. When his jumper was wet he was unguardable.

      I like pineapple on pizza. I mean, don’t get me wrong, it’s definitely an occasional thing for me. But pineapple. pepperoni and mushroom pizza can be very good. The key is not having too much pineapple. If it’s covered with pineapple it’s too much.

      I’m thinking Gallo or PJ Tucker?

    38. I have very mixed feelings on Randle.

      1. He makes me crazy
      2. I want to see more Obi, but I’m not really sure he’s ready to be the starter. I’d to see him defend and shoot more consistently first
      3. If we trade him now, we are selling at the absolute bottom of his value

    39. There were rumblings last night that Brunson would sign a descending 4yr/$110M deal. Aller supposedly prefers those deals. Thise means:

      1) We are at the exact FA money we need

      2) We could not have waived Kemba without waiving Taj (which would’ve still made more sense unless we generate a TPE)

      3) Brunson will be overpaid initially but should be more tradable later on

      4) Mitch may also gets the descending deal, overpaid yr 1 then is a better deal

    40. @wojespn
      Washington is finalizing a trade to acquire Denver’s Will Barton and Monte Morris for Kentavious Caldwell-Pope and Ish Smith, sources tell ESPN.

      Ish Smith, still never a Knick. Poor Clyde…

    41. Alan: Which again brings back my unanswered question from the earlier thread about whose offensive game is less pleasant to watch: Melo’s endless jab-stepping leading into a contested long 2, or Randle’s endless dribbling and spinning leading into a contested long 2?

      Why not finally go small and watch both!?!

    42. swiftandabundant: I like pineapple on pizza. I mean, don’t get me wrong, it’s definitely an occasional thing for me. But pineapple. pepperoni and mushroom pizza can be very good. The key is not having too much pineapple. If it’s covered with pineapple it’s too much.

      lmao

      I never actually even tried it. My Italian grandparents might haunt me. :-)

      I have mellowed on Melo. That period was very painful to me, but I think a lot of it stemmed from breaking up Gallo, Chandler, Fields etc… who I loved. I held that against him as a player. He wasn’t a super elite player, but he was very good and had very little help in NY.

    43. To me it’s not just that he broke up the 2010 team — and then helped inspire the exile of Jeremy Lin, the one fun player since then — but that he just wasn’t exciting to watch even when his jumper was wet, and he had a misplaced sense of his own place both on the team (he should’ve been playing PF as much as possible) and within the league. Does not seem like a bad person, but that whole era? Stinky.

    44. Should we consider the possibility that Randle could be very effective playing with Brunson? I’m not convinced he’s unredeemable. So many of his problems can be attributed to not playing with a primary ball handler and having to play with a second, non-shooting big. Brunson solves one of those problems.

    45. Melo the player was fine. Actually pretty good. If we had just signed him as a free agent outright and been able to keep all those young players and/or trade some of them later to really surround Melo with a good team, it might have worked. But he wanted that super max guaranteed money and Dolan had to have another star. There’s an alternate universe where Melo is a bit smarter/less selfish, still gets super paid and ends up playing with prime CP3 and Chandler on The Knicks and we win a championship or get close to it. Using that amnesty on Billups really screwed us too as that was our last card to play and we should have saved it for STAT.

    46. Grimes seems like the perfect complement to both Brunson and RJ, and I think Obi is getting better at spacing the floor. The problem is, it will take a leap of faith for Thibs to start five guys under 25–I don’t really see it happening.

      Meanwhile, I like Murray as a 2-guard just fine, but not with RJ in the fold. An RJ + picks for Murray package would make real sense on one hand, although we’d still have a hole at the three. Maybe we could still sign Warren for a Brunson/Murray/Warren/Obi/Mitch lineup? That could be pretty tough, especially if we sign a strong bench defender or two.

    47. Hubert: Should we consider the possibility that Randle could be very effective playing with Brunson? I’m not convinced he’s unredeemable. So many of his problems can be attributed to not playing with a primary ball handler and having to play with a second, non-shooting big. Brunson solves one of those problems.

      Believe it or not Hubert and Z-man agree on something!

    48. Alan: Ish Smith, still never a Knick. Poor Clyde…

      If I’m counting correctly Denver will be the thirteenth team that Smith has okayed for. And, since he played for both Philadelphia and Washington twice, he’s actually been moved fifteen times. It’s a hell of a way to have a 12+ year NBA career.

    49. Ish Smith about to set league record playing for 13 different teams.

      In order:
      Rockets
      Grizzlies
      Warriors
      Magic
      Bucks
      Suns
      Thunder
      76ers
      Pelicans
      Pistons
      Wizards
      Hornets
      Nuggets

      How has he never played for us? Somebody needs to check the last 20yrs of film and make sure he’s never snuck on the court for us.

    50. english_knick:
      Cgreene – to your cap question re trading randle… it depends a bit on the staring salary for Brunson. Assuming we have 30m now, or 35m if we waive Taj. Trading randle out is 24m. Dallas trading Brunson counts as half his starting salary going out. This could be 13-14.5m if you believe the 4/110 rumour and depending on if it’s escalating, flat, or reducing (which some commentators think it will be).

      Dallas can take back 125% of what it sends out, so they need to send out about 19m. That means adding at least 4.5-6m to Brunson to get a match. So in effect we’re likely to be taking back around 32-34m in salary – more if Dallas has to add a more expensive player because they can’t get to exactly the right amount.

      Once you add it all up, I think you get to around 20m in leftover space, rising to about 25m if you waive taj, +/- 2-3m depending on details we don’t know yet.

      Hope that helps.

      It does help. We should be anticipating this scenario. I would think Dallas would have interest in Randle as they need usage. And that Randle would see Dallas as a nice landing as he is from there and they are competitive.

      So what would we do with the extra cap space?

    51. It’s a hell of a way to have a 12+ year NBA career.

      It would be tough if you had a family and kids but if you were single in your 20s and early 30s, being a journeyman like that would probably be really fun. You travel so much every season anyways but getting to live in a bunch of different cities for a year or two at a time could be kind of fun.

    52. Hubert:
      Should we consider the possibility that Randle could be very effective playing with Brunson? I’m not convinced he’s unredeemable. So many of his problems can be attributed to not playing with a primary ball handler and having to play with a second, non-shooting big. Brunson solves one of those problems.

      But the whole point of the Kemba experiment was to do exactly that, and even before Kemba’s physical issues cropped up again, it was very clear that Randle was not into the new arrangement in the slightest. It was noticeable from the start of the season. Maybe if he had arrived here along with a real lead ballhandler, or at least had one before he went superpowered in the empty arena season, he’d have been amenable to it. And maybe if he gets his head right in this offseason, he will be. But the Julius Randle of the 2021-22 Knicks does not want anyone but himself dominating the ball.

    53. Yeah I’m not convinced Randle is a lost cause either. Last season Kemba was a disaster on defense, especially paired with Fournier and Mitch was not good to start the season. A lot of that fell on Randle and RJ but especially Randle and it all kind of snowballed from there. And there is a possibility of playing Randle and Obi together if Thibs would ever allow it. With Sims now being the only back up C, it’s more likely to happen?

      But I also don’t care enough to get upset if we do move on from Randle. It would free up time for Obi and allow us and Randle to move on. Less likely we have fans booing him the moment the team struggles. Could allow us to play more up tempo, let RJ take the reigns more, etc.

    54. The most positive thing about Randle is the sheer physicality he brings on both ends. It’s an important thing to have in today’s NBA with the modified foul rules. The only two bigs on the roster for now that bring that are Taj and Sims. Mitch brings some but his high center of gravity doesn’t work as well. I don’t think Obi works in that role very well. So I’m mostly neutral on Randle staying or going and if he stays I am intrigued by how he will respond to both Brunson and all the negative feedback he got last year.

      But I vehemently disagree with anyone who think he should be treated as an irredeemable albatross.

    55. BernieEarnie: Believe it or not Hubert and Z-man agree on something!

      Z-Man, Hubert and Strat agree on something. I’m expecting a bounce back year from Randle with help from Brunson also, but it won’t be without nights in the torture chamber. :-)

    56. Alan: But the whole point of the Kemba experiment was to do exactly that, and even before Kemba’s physical issues cropped up again, it was very clear that Randle was not into the new arrangement in the slightest.

      I was in your camp on this until I looked at it from the FO perspective. Randle signs thinking he is the offensive fulcrum until Kemba takes that away, and he sulks. It is highly unlikely that the FO didn’t have a discussion with Randle as to whether he wants to stay on the team, and the discussions would have included if you stay, your role changes because this is what we are going to do. If he said no, I think he is gone (which I still think is the likeliest case). But if he said yes, he is committing to buy-in with Brunson being the fulcrum and if so, his game should improve.

    57. Alan: Maybe if he had arrived here along with a real lead ballhandler, or at least had one before he went superpowered in the empty arena season, he’d have been amenable to it. And maybe if he gets his head right in this offseason, he will be. But the Julius Randle of the 2021-22 Knicks does not want anyone but himself dominating the ball.

      Derrick Rose getting injured really hurt in that regard. Brunson has way more gravitas than IQ and way more ball-dominating ability than Burks. And Randle knows he will get mercilessly booed if he plays that way again. He also saw the love for Obi and how Obi performed when unleashed.

      These things obviously do not guarantee any change on Randle’s part, but I think they are worth considering in giving him another chance. But I respect those who are past that and just want him gone at any price, he was really a major turn-off last year. It’s a tough situation in either case. I’m just hoping for the best.

    58. The most positive thing about Randle is the sheer physicality he brings on both ends.

      Yeah, this is the thing we will miss if we do trade him and why it would be important for us I think to find a back up power forward who was a bit of a bruiser. Without Randle, this team becomes a lot softer for lack of a better word.

      One of my friends who is a Bulls fan said to me the other night that Randle is one of the toughest dudes in the league to deal with. I think there’s a lot of truth to that. The drawback is his style doesn’t totally mesh with today’s NBA.

      I also think any issues he had with Kemba were more about Kemba being totally washed and awful on defense. Like I think it would be hard to give up the ball that much to a point guard who can’t even get into the paint anymore. And then on the other end, dudes were blowing by Kemba on every possession.

      So I don’t buy that it’s just Randle being selfish.

    59. I also thought that Thibs was spot-on in believing that Kemba was totally cooked from the get-go. I don’t blame the FO for taking the flier, but it just was so apparent from game one (that he almost handed over to the Celts singlehandedly) that he was a huge liability as anything but a bit player. Both Thibs and Randle handled it poorly, but it was kind of a no-win situation.

    60. That’s all true, Alan, but I think this is different. Kemba wasn’t very good; Jalen Brunson is.

      If your editor started handing out the best assignments to some old beat writer who was trying to hang on and his work was clearly crap, you’d be justified to not accept it.

      But if he paid big bucks for a young pen who wrote like Hemingway and offered insights you couldn’t imagine, it would be a lot easier to accept, right?

      There is a Dothraki-ness about NBA teams. The primary ball handler is the Khal, and you have to dethrone the Khal to be the Khal. Kemba didn’t challenge Randle. Brunson will.

      And he’s going to have two major things going for him that Kemba didn’t: he’ll likely be the highest paid player on the team, and he’ll be clearly better than Randle.

      I believe these distinctions make it more likely that Randle may accept a different role.

    61. Also… Julius didn’t look very happy last year. I can’t imagine him wanting to be that guy again.

      I’ve gotten a lot of things wrong here but I’ve been spot on with Julius Randle. When everyone called him untradeable after year 1, I said we should buy low on him. And when everyone else wanted to lock him up after year 2, I said we should sell high on him.

      I am now long Julius Randle again. Which means I agree with Z-Man and Leon Rose. Which means those two finally got something right ;)

    62. The Obi factor is the other part of this. Keeping Randle on the team means believing not only in his ability to accept a changed role, but in Thibs’ ability to change his rotations so that Obi is playing a lot more — which would be yet another adjustment for Randle. One is possible? Both is more of a stretch.

    63. How is Brunson’s defense, btw? We know Fournier is bad on that end, Quickley is tenacious, and Grimes and Deuce (in a world where Deuce ever plays when the team is at full health) are very good at the point of attack. Will Brunson be a guy other teams can target, or is he at least passable on that end?

    64. cgreene: It does help. We should be anticipating this scenario. I would think Dallas would have interest in Randle as they need usage. And that Randle would see Dallas as a nice landing as he is from there and they are competitive.
      So what would we do with the extra cap space?

      What about if they send us Maxi Kleber to be our backup PF? He makes 9M, seems adequate and solves the PF rotation.
      As english_knick said, if Brunson gets the 4/110M and is decreasing, he’ll get 29.5M in 2022-23. So for Dallas it’s 14.75M, with Maxi Kleber’s 9M, it’s 23.75M. Randle makes the same money (23.7M). All good from Dallas pov. On the Knicks side, we must add this to the Detroit deal, to make the money work (because of BYC).
      About the cap space, we have 35M if we waive Taj, and with this deal we add 38.5M (Brunson, Kleber) and send 23.7M (Randle). In total we add 14.8M to our cap (but with no hole at PF). We should have 20M in cap after this deal and before re-signing Mitch.

    65. Alan:
      How is Brunson’s defense, btw? We know Fournier is bad on that end, Quickley is tenacious, and Grimes and Deuce (in a world where Deuce ever plays when the team is at full health) are very good at the point of attack. Will Brunson be a guy other teams can target, or is he at least passable on that end?

      Brunson is a very high-IQ player, and that translates to both ends. He’s not the biggest or best athlete, but he is strong as hell and knows how to use his body and positioning well. He’s not CP3 or Lowry, but he’s definitely not a liability.

    66. Alan:
      How is Brunson’s defense, btw? We know Fournier is bad on that end, Quickley is tenacious, and Grimes and Deuce (in a world where Deuce ever plays when the team is at full health) are very good at the point of attack. Will Brunson be a guy other teams can target, or is he at least passable on that end?

      I watched a lot of Dallas over the last few years. I’d say he works hard at it and is smart about it and that overcomes the size and length issues enough that he’s not a major liability.

    67. Both Randle and RJs turnovers and shooting efficiencies will improve instantly with Jalen Brunson having the ball in his hands at the end of quarters and late in the shot clock of poor possessions. Add a healthy DRose leading the bench mob and this team we’ll be fun to watch and root for again…

    68. Defensively:

      3yr RAPM has Brunson slightly above average 0.69 *childish giggling noise*

      3yr luck adjusted has him basically average 0.05

      RAPM/LEBRON/RAPTOR all have him as a slight negative last year

    69. The only fundamental problem with this team as structured now is that RJ and Randle are not complimentary pieces to each other’s strengths and weaknesses. Both are fine players on their own,- just not sure its fair to neither one (or Thibs) that they have to play with each other.

    70. whether randle is going to be better is going to be ultimately down to randle… but thibs has a large say in this as well… if you’re going to keep putting him in iso situations at the elbow or baseline then he’s going to jack up whatever shots he thinks he deserves…. you have to take the ball out of his hands and hopes he gets the message without pouting…. this whole ‘i’m the guy’ version of randle is really only a recent phenemona so he’s absolutely very capable of playing off of other teammates… to realize his potential he’s going to have to bring part of that mentality back….

      getting a guy like brunson is step 1 in that regard…. here’s the usg for the top 4-5 guys last year

      Brunson – 21.9%
      Randle – 28.7
      Barrett – 27.6
      Fournier – 20.8
      Quickley – 22.2

      this is what i’m hoping it looks like next season

      Brunson – 25%
      Randle – 25
      Barrett – 25
      Fourner – 18
      Quickley – 21

      you cannot just plug in any pg and expect efficiency improvements because of their decisionmaking alone…. but it CAN happen just by tweaking the shot distributions a bit…. i don’t have the numbers but i’m pretty sure brunson iso’s or pnr’s are a lot more efficient than any of our top 5 popular sets last year with randle or rj as the pivot….

      the offense will be better just by having the ball in the hands of a guy who shoots well alot more than having it in the guys that don’t…. he just so happens to play pg….

    71. We also shouldn’t lose sight of the fact that Randle is one of the best rebounders in the league. Obi is a lot of things but he’s not that.

    72. djphan: this is what i’m hoping it looks like next season
      Brunson – 25%
      Randle – 25
      Barrett – 25
      Fourner – 18

      7% USG for Mitch?

    73. As bad as Randle is in general, he’s not that bad. I expect him to bounce back, but still not be good. Hopefully I’m underestimating the effect of whatever mental state Randle sunk into.

    74. This team has the ability to play fast, and Randle is the ballast that prevents it. My vote is to trade him.

    75. I’m considerably more worried about the Brunson signing than most people seem to be. It’s a ton of money for a guy who has one year under his belt as an average-ish starter and before that was a solid bench player. Obviously with his age and the upward trajectory he’s established you’re hoping for a lot of continued improvement but big contracts for non-stars (and his will be one of the biggest in the league) make me very nervous. The spacing is going to be way worse than what he’s used to and it’s going to be a way bigger spotlight than he’s had outside of those couple playoff games without Luka.

      Not saying he’s going to stink or anything like that (he’s a good player) but the contract is building in a lot of projection and that makes me nervous. Most of the hard work to build a serious contender here still remains to be done and I’m not that convinced that paying $28M a season for a guy whose best season was 0.9 BPM (1.8 EPM) while playing a different role on a better team makes that work easier and not harder.

    76. From what I have read, Brunson is a good team defense guy. Can play in a scheme and is decent. He is small so he can be targeted but he’s strong and works hard and is a smart player. So he’s not a “target” at least not in the same way Kemba was!

    77. Donatas Urbonas: The New York Knicks draftee Rokas Jokubaitis will miss the Las Vegas summer league, per sources.

    78. i was just eyeballing it but that does bring up my point… brunsons’ usg is going to put a squeeze on the ball…. someone/everyone will be impacted because of it because burk’s 17 usg is being replaced by brunsons’ at least 20 something usg at bigger minutes…

      so mitch isn’t going to turn into hakeem olajuwon next year unfortunately….

    79. I think djphan is right that the question of Randle’s fit is almost entirely up to Randle. The version of him we saw in LA and NO is theoretically not terribly difficult to fit within most offensive schemes, though it would still hardly be ideal to have so many non-shooters on the floor.

      The problem I’m having is even if Randle is content to go back to being a play finisher and occasional spot up shooter, I just see him as a worse, less energetic version of Obi Toppin.

      The theoretical advantage Randle has over Toppin is that Randle was technically, for a season, one of the best high volume 3PT shooters in the NBA. This sounds completely insane after watching him this past season, but it’s true. If you buy that Randle can come within even 70% or so of that again, it’s genuinely a massive advantage over Toppin.

      In case you can’t tell, I’m skeptical. Every other datapoint in Randle’s career leads me to believe it was a product of the empty stands with some dumb luck thrown in there for good measure. I think going forward he’s the 30-34% shooter he’s been for a while now, and that figure looks a bit better than it is in practice because he’s mostly unguarded on the perimeter.

    80. Stam’s points are more than fair. I would say I think Brunson’s box score aggregators were artificially depressed a bit by the presence of Luka, as in Brunson couldn’t rack up as many assists as he otherwise would’ve and he was docked accordingly. It wouldn’t surprise me to see his AST% rise substantially here, and his BPM might go into the 2-3 range with it.

    81. Hubert:
      If we sign Jalen Brunson, we can’t afford to dump Evan Fournier. He is going to be one of the most important players on the team.

      According to Kevin Pelton’s free agency primer:

      “Brunson benefited from the shooting the Mavericks put around him. A majority of his minutes in the regular season came with four capable 3-point shooters spacing the floor, a luxury Brunson won’t enjoy if he signs with the spacing-challenged New York Knicks.

      The backcourt should be Evan and Brunson with IQ backing up both. That is a strong three-man rotation.

      RJ needs to find his shooting touch again to hold down the wing; we should be ready to replace him with Grimes if he doesn’t.

      Not having one big who can shoot is going to hurt a lot. I’d love to find a way to add our old friend, the Rooster (i.e. Gallo).

      Mo Bamba is reportedly available, though, with Mitch being resigned I’d guess the Knicks would not be interested.

    82. thenoblefacehumper:
      Stam’s points are more than fair. I would say I think Brunson’s box score aggregators were artificially depressed a bit by the presence of Luka, as in Brunson couldn’t rack up as many assists as he otherwise would’ve and he was docked accordingly. It wouldn’t surprise me to see his AST% rise substantially here, and his BPM might go into the 2-3 range with it.

      I pretty much agree that there are good reasons to believe he still has more to show and will keep getting better but it’s a big bet on that. A couple months ago I think everyone felt like 4/80M was reasonable and now he’s going to get an extra 30-40 beyond that and no one seems worried about it because people are building up his current level to be a bit more than it is. I’ve seen a lot of “best Knicks PG in forever!” type comments for example and I think it’s far from obvious he’s going to be the best PG on next year’s Knicks team – a better bet to be healthy than Rose certainly but Rose is still clearly the better per minute player imho.

    83. In the Athletic today, Hollinger ripped the potential Brunson signing, saying the Knicks should basically keep their powder dry for the free agent class of 2023 instead of overpaying for a non-All Star this year

      The big name unrestricted free agents in 2023 are Jokic, LeBron, Kyrie and Harden. Jokic isn’t going anywhere, LeBron isn’t coming here (and I’m not sure we should want him to) and I want nothing to do with Kyrie or Harden.

      So I’m not sure where this idea of 2023 as being the big year to pounce comes from?

    84. Yeah, D-Mar, I just skimmed the list of 2023 UFAs, and once you take out the guys who are awful fits for our win curve and/or radioactive in other ways, the only player clearly better than Brunson is Khris Middleton. Who is still not a great fit for our win curve, and does nothing to solve our age-old PG problem.

    85. I just see him as a worse, less energetic version of Obi Toppin

      Peak Randle is much better than peak Obi. In Randle’s All-NBA season here he was a plus defender.

      I am optimistic that Randle is not as hard-headed as many here think. And I don’t think it’s as black-or-white as we can either have Knicks Randle or Pelicans Randle. With the right players and the right scheme, we could get the supreme version of Randle that combines both of them.

    86. Gimme Dejounte Murray.

      Brunson is a good scorer, not an amazing playmaker or great defender, and can play off ball well. Dejounte is an excellent playmaker and elite defender, a boxscore stuffing All-Star, and he comes with a reasonable contract.

      Dejounte is a winning player, a truly needle moving player. Gimme gimme.

    87. @TimBontemps
      The NBA’s salary cap for the 2022-23 season is projected to come in at roughly $123.6 million, sources told ESPN. That is an $11.6 million increase from last year’s salary cap figure of $112 million.

    88. Yeah, I like Brunson, but i think he is more good to very good than anything close to great. We were the second slowest team in the NBA last year. We have RJ and Randle living to shoot the ball.

      44 wins. That’s what it feels like.

    89. The problem I see is that no combination of Mitch, Randle, and Obi is ideal. Randle is a center in the current NBA, whether Thibs wants to admit it or not. Obi is, too (on offense, at least).

    90. Alan: The NBA’s salary cap for the 2022-23 season is projected to come in at roughly $123.6 million, sources told ESPN.

      And our cap space has increased a little more (1.6M).

    91. Sign me up for a Brunson/Murray backcourt as well. You should get at least 4-5 good years out of that tandem.

    92. Randle is a center in the current NBA, whether Thibs wants to admit it or not.

      the problem is he isn’t. i don’t believe a very good team is possible with randle at C bc he is such a poor help defender at the rim. even in his one good defensive year, his strength was excellent switchability for his size. the lineup worked for him defensively bc he always played with an excellent rim protector, but that generates an offensive trade off given his tendencies on that end. i think a team curated for randle would pair him with a rim protecting 5 who is at least modestly space-eating like turner (and even then they hated the pairing with sabonis) or jjj or retro gasol/ibaka types, but those are few and far between.

      i also don’t think we are likely to ever see pels randle again even if he wants it, bc his explosion and second jump have ebbed so much to the eye test. 8 rim attempts per 36 at 70pct is too much to ask. he could surely find something closer to that, tho. a more persuasive/experimental offensive coach might have really pushed him to be the smash and dash short roll screener he was so obviously born to be. it’s still not impossible. but he’s not a defensive center. lapse after lapse.

    93. I’d prefer we take one step at a time. Pass on Murray. He will cost a lot of more assets than the pairing of Brunson and Murray warrants. First let’s give time to check if Brunson is a good move, before we get to the point where we have no moves left.

    94. Alan: Magic gonna let Mo Bamba get to unrestricted free agency

      Magic must love Wendell Carter Jr at C, because they’re letting Bamba be a UFA and they passed on Chet (!?).

    95. I co-sign on what ptmilo said about Randle.

      I am not 100% convinced the Knick won’t eventually move on from Mitch towards a C that provides at least some space just to help RJ and JB even if they eventually move on from Randle. In the mean time, with Randle, Mitch, JB and RJ we’ll have some interesting conversations on some nights.

    96. cybersoze:
      I’d prefer we take one step at a time. Pass on Murray. He will cost a lot of more assets than the pairing of Brunson and Murray warrants. First let’s give time to check if Brunson is a good move, before we get to the point where we have no moves left.

      Murray is a very good player, but I don’t want to empty the war for him chest either. The next big move has to be a really big move because it’s probably going to be our last big move.

    97. Randle’s biggest problem is his attitude. His refusal to be a good teammate by supporting their success and his expectations that they cover for his extremely minimal effort on defense rotations and actually even getting back in time. That puts a lot of pressure on the team. If he shot 35% from 3, he would be a good player. They had an entire year to fix him last year and that didn’t happen. I don’t see how that changes this year. I think getting rid of him on a reasonable deal is the most important thing they can do for next season.

    98. There’s a lot of complaints about Mo. He doesn’t try that hard and seems to underwhelm on defense. This isn’t actually surprising. He shoots a lot of his 3s from the top of the arc which opens the easier corner shot, but he’s not a great connector trying to swing the ball. I don’t think the advanced stats hate him as much as the fans.

      But perhaps average stats at C should be viewed as being underwhelming with the overabundance of Cs.

      Wendell Carter was fantastic for them and has received a lot of praise from fans.

    99. Let’s turn our nose up at the elite defending boxscore stuffing player with the reasonable salary and 5+ BPM because reasons

    100. The Spurs asking price for Dejounte Murray so far has been very high, but they have every right to expect a Jrue Holiday package for him. Holiday was obviously more proven but he was 30 at the time while Murray is just entering his prime at 25.

      I agree with jk47 that he’s a guy who could change our team, and honestly I’d be willing to package all those fringe 1sts and some more for him. We talked a lot about how the Knicks needed a Jrue Holiday type player and Murray is for sure the closest guy we can get that fits the archetype, he can defend the opponents best wing or guard every night and brings production everywhere else. The shooting and spacing would be iffy but that’s why we’re bringing Brunson, because he can break down a defense and get to the rim to make everyone’s jobs easier.

    101. Without Randle, Burks, Noel, & possibly Fournier our higher end win outcomes are off the table, but at least management has decided to pivot towards the youth movement. It just sucks that they’re wasting picks to do so. But one value of picks is that you can jettison bad contracts, it’s just an uninspiring use.

    102. Yeah, EB, if these were inherited contracts that Rose was paying to dump, it would be one thing. But they are contracts that he signed less than a year ago. The process here just feels very squirm-inducing, even if I like the player we are winding up with as a result of this.

    103. My worry with Dejounte is that his breakout season comes only after the Spurs lost DeRozan. His other seasons are all negative BPM. I have worries about his ability to play offball, which you need when you eventually get multiple superstars.

      Last year was Dejounte’s most efficient, a decent margin over many of his seasons, and it still was only .533.

      On the other hand, if his TS% was genuine improvement and foretells more efficiency he’ll be phenomenal. But he could Randle back to earth too.

    104. Co-sign JK47’s Murray endorsement. Given what we tend to do with draft picks, I don’t think we’ll come across a better use of them.

    105. We can call the dumped 2nds Brunson Burners.

      nice one.

      Eh, most are second rounders and sure, Leon is using them to dump contracts but he’s also used the last 3 drafts to pick up more second rounders. So it’s kind of a wash anyways. I think we’re still ahead on our total number of second rounders compared to when Leon started. 98 percent of second rounders don’t ever turn into NBA rotation players, let alone starters or stars. It’s almost like he picked up all of those extras as a hedge against bad free agent signings.

    106. I mean, Murray was 9th in VORP last year and 12th in BPM… and he’s 25. If you aren’t saving picks for him, idk who else you’d expect to get that is better.

    107. I have to say i wasn’t aware of Dejounte Murray’s contract. If we trade for him, we’ll pay him 16.5M in 2022-23 and then he’ll be expiring at 17.7M in 2023-24. This way it’s almost a one year tryout and then we can cut our losses without wasting assets if it doesn’t pan out. Looks like a very good gamble, after all. But no overpaying, please.

    108. Murray is coming off a season with a 40.6 AST% and 11.8 TOV%. Led the league in steals. Is obviously an elite defender. Had better than a 3-1 AST/TO ratio, with 9.2 AST/G. Has been an outstanding defensive rebounder for a guard for his entire career.

      He was 12th in the NBA in BPM. Now that doesn’t mean he’s the 12th best player in the NBA, but you really can’t put up a 5+ BPM without being pretty goddamn good. This is the kind of player we should be prioritizing.

    109. 21.1 PTS, 9.2 AST, 8.3 TRB, 2.0 STL and 79% from FT line in the last 3 seasons. I’m sold, let’s get the guy.

    110. JK47: He was 12th in the NBA in BPM. Now that doesn’t mean he’s the 12th best player in the NBA, but you really can’t put up a 5+ BPM without being pretty goddamn good. This is the kind of player we should be prioritizing.

      ess-dog:
      I mean, Murray was 9th in VORP last year and 12th in BPM… and he’s 25. If you aren’t saving picks for him, idk who else you’d expect to get that is better.

      Again, he’s had 1yr of positive BPM. The rest have been negative. Historically, he makes Westbrook look like an efficient player. It could work out great. It could be a very expensive gamble.

      cybersoze:
      I have to say i wasn’t aware of Dejounte Murray’s contract. If we trade for him, we’ll pay him 16.5M in 2022-23 and then he’ll be expiring at 17.7M in 2023-24. This way it’s almost a one year tryout and then we can cut our losses without wasting assets if it doesn’t pan out. Looks like a very good gamble, after all. But no overpaying, please.

      We’d still be down 3+ 1st round picks

    111. JK47: you really can’t put up a 5+ BPM without being pretty goddamn good

      What about 3.8 BPM? :D

    112. I would love Murray but I do not think he is a great fit with Brunson. Doing all this work to clear space for Brunson and then trading for somebody that will fill a lot of the same role makes very little sense.

      He is good enough you figure it out but it seems unlikely.

      As for the rest of the roster, I think moving Randle is absolutely essential. We need time for Obi, who is ready to have a huge breakout season, and we need to play at a fast pace. Randle seems incapable of pushing the pace for an extended amount of time and Obi, RJ, Mitch, and IQ all play better with a faster pace.

      On top of that, we need to move at least one of Rose and Fournier, though moving both would be better. If both are back it really puts a minute crunch on IQ, Grimes, and Reddish. I think IQ is ready to also break out and deserves a lot of minutes and both Grimes and Reddish probably should be in the rotation and if both Rose and Fournier are back that is not possible.

    113. Early Bird: Again, he’s had 1yr of positive BPM. The rest have been negative. Historically, he makes Westbrook look like an efficient player. It could work out great. It could be a very expensive gamble.

      I see four years of positive bpm. The shooting might be a problem but he makes for it elsewhere, he gets a lot of assists/rebounds/steals. We could very well go for a grit & grind style with great rebounders and mediocre shooters (and that definitely means keeping Randle at PF). And I am all for having players that know how to pass the ball at every position. I would enjoy that team.

    114. iserp: I see four years of positive bpm.

      You’re right. I meant to say 5 years of negative OBPM.

      All I’m saying is that it doesn’t take too much effort for Knicks fans to come up with 2 examples of players whose TS% cratered from above .530 to ~.510.

      I’m not necessarily against him but I don’t think it’s a no brainer.

    115. Murray, RJ and Randle is a ton of ball dominant guys who don’t score efficiently. Running out lineups where maybe one guy can shoot is going to be hard to make work. We’d have to trade RJ to make Murray make sense.

      I’m also leery of the Spurs wanting to trade a guy on a good contract coming off a career year.

    116. DRed:
      Murray, RJ and Randle is a ton of ball dominant guys who don’t score efficiently.Running out lineups where maybe one guy can shoot is going to be hard to make work.We’d have to trade RJ to make Murray make sense.

      I’m also leery of the Spurs wanting to trade a guy on a good contract coming off a career year.

      Yeah, there’s a “sell high/buy low” dynamic to be concerned about. They might expect him to regress.

      OTOH, if San Antonio is really looking to blow it up and do a full rebuild, selling now makes sense, and they might not necessarily expect him to regress.

    117. Yeah, I don’t care much about ts% with Murray when he’s so productive in every other facet of the game, he’s the anti-Fournier in this sense, who always has a nice looking ts% but is so anemic everywhere else.

      Listen, a Brunson, Murray, RJ and Randle core is not my dream team at all, but my dream scenarios will never happen with the way this franchise is ran. We’re firmly stuck trying to improve away from the draft, so if that’s the case, just go for actual talented players who can produce at a high level. Murray is one of them, he’s available, he’s 25 and under a really nice contract. I don’t think it’s something the Knicks should be overthinking.

      Make a sensible offer and negotiate, drop out if the price is too insane, but make a real attempt.

    118. I’d feel a lot better about a Murray trade if Randle or Fournier are the outgoing salaries. Skeptical they want that many years on their books.

      Kill two birds with one stone. Don’t have to waste additional assets moving those two.

    119. Murray is really good. Some good team should definitely take advantage of his current low salary to add him to an already strong core without having to give up any of their main pieces. The Grizz for example could send Danny Green and a little filler salary plus draft picks for Murray and add him without losing any of their important players. They could even add a big piece in free agency AND do that. That kind of structure makes a lot of sense. It’s very hard for me to see how the Knicks can take advantage of his low salary for the next two years in a way that lets them build a great team though. At that point Murray gets his max most likely and you’ve squandered the main reason he’s so appealing.

    120. The Spurs are a well run organization but they are not infallible. In fact, I would say since their last championship in 2014 they’ve been far from perfect. Signing LaMarcus Aldridge instead of blowing it up, bungling the Kawhi relationship…they are not perfect. They got super lucky when they landed Duncan. They’ve developed some nice players and did a great job fining Parker, Ginobli and later, Kawhi. But they are not perfect.

      And if they are truly, finally throwing in the towel and rebuilding, Murray is their biggest piece to dangle.

    121. swiftandabundant: Signing LaMarcus Aldridge instead of blowing it up, bungling the Kawhi relationship…

      They had two years with Kawhi and Aldridge when they won 61 and 67 wins. Yes, they were on GSW’s shadow, but signing Aldridge was a good move to keep on winning with their already very good core.

    122. Moving RJ in a trade that brings back Murray is fine by me. Then just give Murray the money you were going to fritter away on RJ’s extension. The odds of RJ becoming as good as Murray seem rather low.

      Murray’s skill set is not all that volatile. Playmaking, defense, rebounding. It’s not like he just had an amazing fluke season that was driven by unsustainable shooting.

    123. If Murray can pair with Trae Young (as the Hawks desperately want to do), he can work with Brunson.

      But yeah, I feel like it’s either Murray OR Barrett—not both—and I don’t have a ton of faith in RJ.

      Dumping both RJ AND Randle after clearing space to sign Brunson would really be an interesting outcome. I can’t imagine it happens, but league moves are getting harder and harder to predict these days.

    124. They had two years with Kawhi and Aldridge when they won 61 and 67 wins. Yes, they were on GSW’s shadow, but signing Aldridge was a good move to keep on winning with their already very good core.

      Yeah, the only thing the Spurs did “wrong” was having Kawhi Leonard decide he didn’t want to play for them anymore (and then deciding not to blow it up once Kawhi decided to leave).

    125. so exciting, can’t wait to see what the team looks like next week, if the brunson thing happens, it may happen right away…

      if there are more moves – trade some kind of RJ, Randle, and or Fournier and picks to bring in Murray…that would be something else…re-sign mitch, let obi run the court, grimes proves he’s a starter level quality player, quik sixth man of the year candidate…that would be a really nice backcourt to have…

    126. Predictions to fill roster:

      1) Sign Keels to the 15-man roster (2-way is only 2yrs)

      2) Sims converted to NBA contract

      3) Brunson

      4) Room Exception PF

      5) Jean Montero 2-way

      6) ??? 2-way

      That’s 17.

      Obviously changes if others are moved, which wouldn’t surprise either. Keels could be kept on 2-way to keep flexibility.

    127. I would definitely rather have Murray than Beal, for example, who is coming off a terrible season and is aging rapidly. Beal’s value comes almost entirely by his scoring, and he was a .539 ts% shooter last season while only playing 40 games. Murray is better at everything else and had a .533 ts% last season.

    128. I’d prefer Murray to Beal, also, but I bet the asking price for Beal is a lot lower than it is for Murray. The Wizards basically held on to Beal too long (which is probably one of the main reasons why the Spurs are striking now, while the iron is hot).

    129. Again, though, I continue to be a bit wary about the classic “We need to make a trade, what star is out there?” trade. You know, as in, “We weren’t thinking of Murray, but he’s the guy who’s out there, so I guess we go all in on a guy we weren’t even considering a week ago.”

    130. How could anyone prefer Beal to Murray?

      Giving money to Murray instead of RJ is the best idea I have heard in a while.

    131. A lot of dump Fournier ideas here lately…Is it possible that many may be over rating the value of Grimes and McBride?

    132. If Randle is traded out to say Dallas, does a Brunson/Murray backcourt make sense with RJ?

      I’m trying to wrap my head around this bc I thought brunson was going to be the PG but so is Murray? But is the idea to run a 2 PG backcourt or Brunson play off ball some like he did with Luka?

      If we’re not getting rid of RJ but don’t have RAndle, does a Murray, Brunson, RJ, Obi, Mitch starting 5 make sense?

      I guess if RJ gets his 3 point shooting back and Obi continues to improve there it could be…exciting?

    133. I don’t think anyone is overrating McBride but yeah, we might be overrating Grimes.

      I think Fournier is probably better than we think but the only thing he is really good at is 3 point shooting. I would much rather get a more well rounded player to replace him even if they aren’t as good of a 3 point shooter.

      But I do think Fournier seems like a good teammate and maybe his weakness on D was compounded early on having to share the back court with Kemba.

    134. I mean, fuck it. I’d rather trade future first for a player as good and in his prime as Murray than keep incinerating picks.

      Murray and Brunson aren’t superstars but together, they’d make one of the better overall backcourts in the league. And ship Randle out, no need for a point forward.

      Murray
      Brunson
      RJ
      Obi
      Mitch

      I can go to battle with that group.

    135. A lot of posters I really respect here are pro Murray and that’s definitely making me think. My concerns are not about him as a player but about whether a starting unit of Brunson, Murray, RJ, Randle and Mitchell can make any sort of sense!

      But hey, in isolation he’d be one of the better players we’ve fielded in a LONG time, and maybe it could work. Like others I’d be way more on board if we shipped out Randle. I’d be sad to lose RJ but maybe that would then be the best move.

      In any case – it’s getting real. Hoopshype saying the Murray talks are heating up and that we’re in the mix…

    136. Fournier’s defenders don’t watch him closely on the defensive end like i do, right? I get mad at watching him (try to) play defense.

      Edit: Fournier’s defenders are much better at it than Fournier himself. LOL

    137. We might be overrating Grimes, but its easy to overrate Fournier too. Fournier struggled on defense and didn’t drive very well which led to worse 2pt percentages & fewer assists than the last few years.

      Fournier’s offense is definitely better right now, but you’d expect a rookie to expand his game and play more efficiently in year 2.

      If nothing else it makes more sense to run a young core player than a 30yr old.

    138. Murray gone.

      Per Woj, Hawks trading Gallo and multiple 1sts… and that’s it. Wonder how many firsts it took. If 3 or less, it should’ve been us.

    139. I was going to weigh in on the Dejounte stuff but the Hawks have relieved me of the solemn duty to do so. The gist of my take was going to be that he’s really good but because of the fit issues we should see if we could save a bunch of picks by trading RJ for him.

    140. If we were having problems about USG, what about pairing Murray with a 34% USG player? There’s only one ball! :D

    141. Worth noting, we did NOT trade a 1st round pick to dump Kemba’s salary. We traded #13 and seconds and Kemba for a 2025 MIL 1st.

      Much more accurate to think of it as a pick swap. #13 for #25 to get off Kemba’s salary. While it’s still lost value, the draft is much flatter after the first 6-8 picks and the drop is probably not as bad as it seems. Suggesting that we incinerated the #13 pick or lost it for just a salary dump is totally disingenuous.

      And before anyone brings up the “time value of picks”, while there is some merit to this in terms of potential value in trade it’s actually not very rational. GMs care about the time value of picks because they are trying to save their jobs. Fans/owners, on the other hand, should have a discount rate at nearly 0% because we should have a very long time horizon.

      Also, picks don’t gain in value over time. $100 in the stock market should become ~$130 – $140 in three years. Conversely the #20 pick in the 2022 draft will probably have almost exactly the same expected value as the #20 pick in the 2025 draft. Fans/owners shouldn’t care all that much about picks conveying in later years.

    142. I agree that Murray is the more desirable player BUT:

      – Randle and Fournier fit nearly perfectly into a proposed Beal contract (maybe with Reddish)

      – All NY has to do is line up pick-trades for Randle and Fournier, and Washington should gladly do a S&T

      It’s something to look for if, say, ATL steals Murray. Beal is a better fit offensively, and he should regain his form if traded to a competitive team (and we save all our future picks for a rainy day).

    143. Haha they used our old Charlotte pick from the “incineration” to get it done!

    144. I think 2023 CHA pick is the infamous incinerated pick. We’re gonna have fun with that for a long time.

    145. It WAS the result of that trade, yes!

      @wojespn
      The Hawks are sending a 2023 first-round pick via Charlotte, and their own 2025 and 2027 first-round picks to the Spurs in the deal, sources tell ESPN. Spurs will also get a pick swap in 2026.

      Welcome back, my friends, to the incineration debate that never ends! Come inside! Come inside!

    146. Our friend Reggie praising Brunson.

      @ReggieBullock35: JB deserves everything coming his way, true hard worker and def LIKE DAT (money emoji) AND BETTER PERSON OFF THE COURT (100 emoji)

    147. one offseason with pop and it’s gonna be a high lotto pick dammit.

      no idea how this trade will work out for atlanta on offense. really relies on trae changing the way he plays off the ball. i don’t think mcmillan is is the ideal coach for that puzzle, which sounds a bit familiar.

    148. Is Mitch going to break the Charlie Ward curse, or it doesn’t count for 2nd rounders?

    149. dejounte murray is a pretty big get for atlanta and very interesting questions… no protections on the ATL pick + The Incinerated Pick…. and it seems like the spurs settled on a deal and wanted no protections….

      it’s a gamble for ATL but murray’s deal is awesome and there aren’t many opportunities for ATL to get this kind of talent this cheaply…. and yes just 3 lateish frp’s is relatively cheap for a guy who’s quite the talent….

      this does take the ball away from trae which was going to be necessary for them to make a leap as a team… and it’s questionable if murray will be enough to make it worth it but the alternatives were going to take awhile to pan out.. if it did at all…

      they made a trade i wish the knicks made and i think it works out well for them…. there is obv some downside but it’s worth it in this case….

    150. ptmilo: really relies on trae changing the way he plays off the ball.

      I don’t get it at all.

    151. swiftandabundant:
      Jowles,

      I’m in agreement

      Bench

      Rose
      IQ
      Grimes
      PF
      Sims

      That seems solid to me.

      Now that the Murray sweepstakes is so quickly over, I hope Quickley plays next to Brunson.

    152. And before anyone brings up the “time value of picks”, while there is some merit to this in terms of potential value in trade it’s actually not very rational. GMs care about the time value of picks because they are trying to save their jobs.

      Which is the precise reason why it does matter, because the other GMs do care about the time value of the picks. “The time value of the picks doesn’t matter. It only matters to the GMs who are the ones making the trades. But it doesn’t matter.”

    153. I’m flabbergasted.
      Just what in the world are the Spurs doin??

      Welp..the NBA never said anything about offseason tanking lol. They now have no PG, a few extra picks and a partially guaranteed Rooster who just might get bought out. That part of it bodes well for us if we move Randle.

      But seriously..what in the entire fuck??

      And..Holy shit Atlanta’s gonna be a problem next season. That starting 5 tho! Sheesh

    154. I want IQ to start too! What is going on? We’re in agreement?

      But yeah both Brunson and iQ have experience playing lead guard and off the ball. Seems like it could work. If Evan stays let him and rose lead the bench.

    155. Ugh, that’s depressing. I would have loved to get Dejounte Murray for 3 first-rounders. Jonathan Macri is already tweeting how it would have been too costly for the Knicks. I really need to just unsubscribe from his newsletter.

    156. Totes McGoats as Totes McGoats: Just what in the world are the Spurs doin??

      One guy replying to Bondy on Twitter said it could be bad blood from the Marcus Morris signing. It makes some sense. This helps explain the option to trade with Atlanta instead of the Knicks that have young players to send their way. Shipping Murray out has one simple explanation – Victor Wembanyama.

    157. Totes McGoats as Totes McGoats: I’m flabbergasted.
      Just what in the world are the Spurs doin??

      Hard reset, seems like. I’m a little confused why they decided to sign-and-trade for Doug McDermott last year if they had any plans of trading away their best player for future picks. I wonder if McDermott, Zach Collins and Josh Richardson will be on their way out soon. Pop must be on the way to retiring. Seems unlikely he’s going to want to spend his time traveling around the COVID world with a 25-win team.

    158. cybersoze: One guy replying to Bondy on Twitter said it could be bad blood from the Marcus Morris signing.

      ???

    159. Murray is an incredible addition for the Hawks. That backcourt is going to be great.

    160. The Honorable Cock Jowles: Pop must be on the way to retiring.

      Yeah..I can’t see him wanting to stay for a full rebuild. A couple of years ago- I REALLY wanted the Spurs to do this so we’d have a shot at Pop.

      Maybe Pop moves into the Spurs’ FO and gives the reins to Timmay?

    161. Spurs fans are now the third group of fans to be pissed off by receiving that pick. It’s like the cursed tiki idol when the brady bunch went to Hawaii.

    162. Seriously. One season of Cam fucking Reddish is what we got out of a first round draft pick that then, even in incinerated form, was used by another team as an asset to acquire Dejounte Murray.

      I’m going to go pummel myself in the head with a brick now.

    163. They probably sent Murray to ATL because he wanted to play with his buddy Trae. All other things being equal, why not do him that solid?

      And as good as Murray is, this is the 3-point era… I’m guessing our FO is prioritizing shooting, especially if Randle and RJ are still on the team.

    164. Wembanyama is the rebuild.

      I love the quote from Tony Parker about his disappointment over Wembanyama leaving Parker’s team because he wasn’t getting enough minutes and Parker was all, “We were about to give him 30 minutes a game!” Dude, you played him 18.4 minutes a game last year. Why would he trust you now?

    165. Don’t assume Pops wii retire:

      Can report that Gregg Popovich gave his official blessing to the Murray trade and — while nothing is guaranteed, obviously — he’s completely on board with coaching a bunch of kids next season.

      As a team source just told me, he’s excited, “like he’s back at Pomona-Pitzer.”

    166. I don’t think acquiring both Brunson and Murray would be ideal in theory without a superstar wing or big. We’re already pretty stocked with guards/small wings. But at that price, damn!!

    167. It’s what used to be called a second childhood…

      It reminds me of how much Kerr loved coaching that one shitty Warriors team. Granted, he knew the good players were coming back the next year, but still, there’s something to be said for totally molding a bunch of young players, Hoosiers-style.

    168. JK47:
      Seriously. One season of Cam fucking Reddish is what we got out of a first round draft pick that then, even in incinerated form, was used by another team as an asset to acquire Dejounte Murray.

      I’m going to go pummel myself in the head with a brick now.

      In a perfect world SA trades the pick to Phoenix…

      But hell, one would think that once something is incinerated, one shouldn’t give a shit about what happens with the ashes.

    169. Wow, what a crazy day. That is one of the most surprising trades I have seen in a while.

    170. Back on the Eastern Front, that’s yet another team that we will be expected to finish behind…

      BOS, MIL, MIA, PHI, BKN, ATL, CHI, CLE, TOR…

      Looks like barring a blockbuster we’ll be slugging it out with CHA, IND, DET, and WAS for that last spot…

      If ever there was a season to tank, this is it!

    171. Z-man:
      I don’t think acquiring both Brunson and Murray would be ideal in theory without a superstar wing or big. We’re already pretty stocked with guards/small wings. But at that price, damn!!

      Plus one on that. Our next serious move has to be a big one because its going to be the final one. It doesn’t have to happen this off season or even at this trade deadline.

    172. That Murray trade is perfectly engineered to generate an even number of reasonable opinions on both sides of the “should we have beaten that offer” question. The equivalent for us probably would’ve been the MIL pick, two unprotected picks of our own, a swap, and Fournier.

      I am a huge fan of Murray and thus wouldn’t have complained if we made that trade, but I think I lean towards that price being just a bit too hefty to justify. We’d be left with a very odd-looking team and we wouldn’t have much left in the way of assets to fix it.

      I’ll say this though, passing on Murray for that package definitely sets a high bar for whatever we do with that package instead. In other words, my understanding of passing on Murray is revocable.

    173. ptmilo:

      no idea how this trade will work out for atlanta on offense.really relies on trae changing the way he plays off the ball.i don’t think mcmillan is is the ideal coach for that puzzle, which sounds a bit familiar.

      According to someone I follow that supposedly knows Trae’s game well, early in basketball career Trae mostly played off the ball and totally excelled at it. He actually wants to go back to playing more off the ball.

      I think this guy may now his game. :-)

      Ray Young
      @rayfordyoung
      I keep seeing/hearing this & so funny. People really don’t watch the @ATLHawks or have followed @TheTraeYoung
      ….My son has played off ball most of his life. That’s how he became the player he is since 8th grade. He just hasn’t had a chance since AAU days!?

      Sam Quinn
      @SamQuinnCBS
      · Jun 27
      One of my favorite things about Dejounte Murray maybe going to Atlanta is that pairing Trae Young with a high-usage limited shooting point guard basically forces him to start moving off of the ball.

    174. I heard Kevin Knox is a free agent. Anyone want to pair him up with Cam? :-)

    175. I’m glade we didnt do the Murray trade because it would essentially lock us out of any other star trades assuming we didnt flip him. Would pretty much lock us into that core which would be weird fitting and not a real contender.

    176. Geo, the most prominent name who will move is probably DeAndre Ayton. But he will probably get a Max contract, which is a lot for him, and we are re-signing Mitch.

      I guess you could wish for Beale. It was just reported he is opting out and is a free agent. But I don’t see us getting him either.

    177. James Harden opts out and to take pay cut to help 76ers bolster their roster

      Looks like Harden has a lot more “dare to be different” in him than Kyrie.

    178. Complaining we gave up a solid asset for one season of Cam Reddish? Well what if I told you we could have two seasons of Cam Reddish?

    179. I don’t think San Antonio accepts the trade if it’s Cam Reddish + 2 picks + Gallo, so yeah… I’m not very happy right now.

    180. DRed:
      Complaining we gave up a solid asset for one season of Cam Reddish?Well what if I told you we could have two seasons of Cam Reddish?

      I’m on an island thinking Cam can still be a good player, but if we are going to dump him because Thibs never wanted him and still doesn’t like him it was idiotic.

    181. Murray is still young. He probably hasn’t even peaked yet. For the Spurs to dump him at this age makes me think they either believe he’s overrated and a product of their system or they are resetting to below zero and expect the rebuild to take more than 5 years.

    182. It’s kind of amazing how we charred the #19 pick, then incinerated the pick we acquired with the #19 pick, and then that the team that acquired the charred pick used it as an asset to acquire an actual good player while we’re left holding the smoldering embers known as Cam Reddish. I mean you have to just marvel at it all. Leon’s not great at all of this. It’s like the paper clip trade in reverse.

      The Razor. It is real.

    183. thenoblefacehumper: I’ll say this though, passing on Murray for that package definitely sets a high bar for whatever we do with that package instead. In other words, my understanding of passing on Murray is revocable.

      This isn’t fair because the price of the Dejounte Murray’s of the world vary with the situation. I think SAS could have gotten more if they held out…I mean this is not much more return than we got for a petulant pseudounicorn with a torn ACL. Be that as it may, ATL better take advantage while he’s still on a value contract. He’s a UFA in two seasons and is going to get paaaaaiiiid!

    184. Z-man: This isn’t fair because the price of the Dejounte Murray’s of the world vary with the situation.

      Which is exactly the kind of thing a good front office would account for in making the decision to pass on Murray. It’s an explicit bet that a better opportunity, all things considered, will present itself down the line. Maybe that means a similar quality player for a lower price, a better player for a higher price, etc. They’re saying they’ll put 3 picks and a swap to better use than Dejounte Murray.

      I think that’s totally possible, but it’s also the kind of thing you have to actually prove. That’s why I sympathize with all of the comments saying we should’ve just traded for Murray despite the many imperfections of the situation on the grounds that it’s unlikely we do anything more worthwhile. This front office hasn’t given us any reason to believe they can do something better with those assets than acquire a young, fringe all-NBA player.

      That doesn’t mean they can’t do it eventually, but if they don’t it’ll look pretty bad that they passed on Murray.

    185. Let’s leave the never-ending debate about the 19th pick in the 2021 draft aside for just a moment. I feel like we have not really engaged with the question Zach Lowe and others have raised: would you have given up two completely unprotected first round picks in a deal for Murray?

    186. The unprotected firsts we would have traded would either be low first rounders, because Murray might have actually led to a decent amount of wins, or late lottery picks because drafting 9 through 11 or so is what the Knicks do every year after winning 30-something games. So yeah.

      Although I guess there would be the possibility that we could lose a 1RP in an accidentitank year. That’s the best argument against trading the two unprotected firsts.

    187. thenoblefacehumper: They’re saying they’ll put 3 picks and a swap to better use than Dejounte Murray.

      But that is not an absolute at any time, it depends on the situation. ATL and NYK are not similar, and do not value assets absolutely in that manner. When we’re ready to make that move, the price may be higher or lower. You’ve said this yourself many times….we’re not on the same place re: the win curve as they are, and frankly, they were in the right situation at the right time. In other words, I think your initial instincts are correct in that it makes way more sense for them than it does for us. But that doesn’t mean that the same caliber deal will be there when it’s our turn. We may have to pay more for the same player, or the same for a lesser player. Or not!

    188. JK47:
      The unprotected firsts we would have traded would either be low first rounders, because Murray might have actually led to a decent amount of wins, or late lottery picks because drafting 9 through 11 or so is what the Knicks do every year after winning 30-something games. So yeah.

      Although I guess there would be the possibility that we could lose a 1RP in an accidentitank year. That’s the best argument against trading the two unprotected firsts.

      It’s definitely more risky for us than ATL. But trading unprotected 1sts is always scary.

    189. Thanks for the reminder, BBA. And I believe the pick swap is unprotected, too. So let’s all put down our incineration swords for a moment: would you surrender two unprotected first round picks and an unprotected first round pick swap to add Murray to this roster? Do you believe he and Brunson and our young guys and/or Randle would make the team so good that we would be immune to a rehash of guys like Jamal Murray and LaMarcus Aldridge being taken with picks we blithely traded away?

    190. Guys, if you spent the last year saying the pick was incinerated you really can’t say now that it was an important piece of this trade.

      And frankly I doubt it was more than the “and throw in Mozgov” of this trade. I still think the odds are high that it converts to a second.

      The meat is the unprotected picks in 2025 & 2027, and the unprotected pick swap in between.

    191. I don’t think we could have gotten the deal Atlanta did. San Antonio is still pissed about Morris and would want a pound of flesh.

    192. Alan:
      Let’s leave the never-ending debate about the 19th pick in the 2021 draft aside for just a moment. I feel like we have not really engaged with the question Zach Lowe and others have raised: would you have given up two completely unprotected first round picks in a deal for Murray?

      To me Brunson and Murray are either/or. I’d trade the picks but then wouldn’t sign Brunson. I think they’d be functional together but not optimal- especially if Randle and RJ remain at forward.

    193. Remember there is also a pick swap in between the 1st rd picks too.

      And remember the picks are 3, 4, and 5 years from now. That uncertainty adds a lot to the value of the picks.

      They would have insisted on the same from us. So we’re talking about three unprotected firsts (incl the swap) that likely belong to the next front office.

      No way I pay that price.

    194. Z-man: I think your initial instincts are correct in that it makes way more sense for them than it does for us. But that doesn’t mean that the same caliber deal will be there when it’s our turn. We may have to pay more for the same player, or the same for a lesser player. Or not!

      My initial instincts haven’t changed. I think a similar trade would’ve made us less likely to be contenders within the next ten or so years.

      The reasonably compelling counterpoint is that it’s extraordinarily unlikely we get to that point within the next ten or so years anyway, because we don’t have one of the better front offices in the league. Dejounte Murray would’ve been a damn good bird in the hand.

      Now, if we wind up paying more for a similar player and we’re able to contend anyway, I certainly wouldn’t hold that against the front office. That would mean they were per se correct to pass on Murray. I’m talking about a scenario in which we use our one bullet on someone else (or never get a better opportunity to use it at all) and wind up with a worse team than we would’ve had we used it on Murray. That would render the decision to pass on Murray a screw up.

      Hubert: And frankly I doubt it was more than the “and throw in Mozgov” of this trade. I still think the odds are high that it converts to a second.

      The meat is the unprotected picks in 2025 & 2027, and the unprotected pick swap in between.

      Yeah, always good to keep in mind that teams are sensitive about winning the press release. The Spurs get to say they got “three first-round picks” now, but their focus was definitely on the two unprotected picks.

    195. Alan:
      Thanks for the reminder, BBA. And I believe the pick swap is unprotected, too. So let’s all put down our incineration swords for a moment: would you surrender two unprotected first round picks and an unprotected first round pick swap to add Murray to this roster? Do you believe he and Brunson and our young guys and/or Randle would make the team so good that we would be immune to a rehash of guys like Jamal Murray and LaMarcus Aldridge being taken with picks we blithely traded away?

      100%, yeah I would for the current Knicks. We’re locked into this core long term, like it or not, because the Knicks are never intentionally tanking, so I’m fine with giving up those picks. Looking at the league right now, I just don’t see any superstar that could potentially be available in a trade that I’d rather have over Murray, everyone is either too old like Lillard, or not that great like Beal, or guys who just won’t be traded ever like Giannis, Doncic, Jokic or Embiid.

      At some point if you’re not going to tank, you have to make moves to bring in real talent. Real stars are very rarely hitting free agency these days, so you have to get creative. Murray is a level below those guys, but still productive enough that I love the move for Atlanta, he solves many of their problems and fits their timeline with Young perfectly.

    196. Hubert: Guys, if you say now that it was an important piece of this trade, which it clearly was, you really can’t say the pick last year was incinerated.

      There, I fixed it for you.

    197. Trading the protected picks we have from other teams is not the same as giving up our own picks unprotected. I think Washington did the equivalent of the latter.

      Edit: I meant Atlanta, not Washington

    198. thenoblefacehumper: I’m talking about a scenario in which we use our one bullet on someone else (or never get a better opportunity to use it at all) and wind up with a worse team than we would’ve had we used it on Murray. That would render the decision to pass on Murray a screw up.

      Sure, but it would be a screw-up in hindsight, which can happen with any deal. I mean, it was a screw-up to not trade KP for Devin Booker when it was possible but few felt that at the time.

    199. thenoblefacehumper: My initial instincts haven’t changed. I think a similar trade would’ve made us less likely to be contenders within the next ten or so years.

      The reasonably compelling counterpoint is that it’s extraordinarily unlikely we get to that point within the next ten or so years anyway, because we don’t have one of the better front offices in the league. Dejounte Murray would’ve been a damn good bird in the hand.

      Now, if we wind up paying more for a similar player and we’re able to contend anyway, I certainly wouldn’t hold that against the front office. That would mean they were per se correct to pass on Murray. I’m talking about a scenario in which we use our one bullet on someone else (or never get a better opportunity to use it at all) and wind up with a worse team than we would’ve had we used it on Murray. That would render the decision to pass on Murray a screw up.

      Yeah, always good to keep in mind that teams are sensitive about winning the press release. The Spurs get to say they got “three first-round picks” now, but their focus was definitely on the two unprotected picks.

      I assume that by saying that, you’d be willing to bet big money that both of the unprotected ATL picks will convey as higher picks than the protected CHA pick, right? I mean it sounds like a pretty sure thing the way you are putting it…

    200. Bruno Almeida:
      I don’t think San Antonio accepts the trade if it’s Cam Reddish + 2 picks + Gallo, so yeah… I’m not very happy right now.

      i assume ATL would have offered up their own 2023 unprotected instead…. i don’t think the CHA pick in particular was key in the trade or else their other pick would’ve gone also…. it did give ATL an opportunity to stay in the 2023 draft and move it if they need to for more upgrades…. whatever that next deal is will be essentially what the Cam trade bought them since that’s probably where you can quantify the excess value it generated….

      Deeefense!!: Murray is still young. He probably hasn’t even peaked yet. For the Spurs to dump him at this age makes me think they either believe he’s overrated and a product of their system or they are resetting to below zero and expect the rebuild to take more than 5 years.

      this is basically win curve stuff…. they had some nice young pieces but it was likely not going to amount to anything within the next 2-3 years and actively impede their ability to add more young difference makers… it was much better to tank and add one of the true blue chippers next year along with whatever came in the murray package to complement them to hopefully move up the ladder within the next 2-5 yr window….

      in 3 years they may even have a better record than us….

    201. Knick fan not in NJ:
      Trading the protected picks we have from other teams is not the same as giving up our own picks unprotected. I think Washington did the equivalent of the latter.

      Edit: I meant Atlanta, not Washington

      Most teams willing to give up unprotected picks believe that the picks won’t be in the lottery. Sometimes they’re wrong, but usually not.

    202. “in 3 years they may even have a better record than us….”

      In 3 years RJ will be an all star candidate, Brunson will be one of the better PGs in the NBA, Mitch will be hitting corner 3s, Quick will be a perennial 6th man of the year candidate, our unknown at this time other max player will be bringing the house down at MSG and we will still be complaining about Thibs and Randle. :-).

      The Spurs will still be consolidating picks to move up in the draft because Pop keeps coaching them to too many wins. :-)

    203. The Murray trade is very basic win curve stuff. If they had prime Kawhi there’s no chance he gets traded for picks.

    204. Apparently the ATL deal had a lot do to with politics, agents, those players wanting to play together etc… So no one was really in the running except ATL.

    205. as far as available young stars/really good players… murray probably ranks near the top over what could be available the next few years…. this is just spitballing but here’s who i have that might be available up to 2026….

      1. devin booker – another UFA for 2024 but probably far fetched that he leaves… or if it’s even worth backing up the truck for him…

      2. karl anthony towns – i have no idea what the odds are or what the situation is like in minnesota.. things look better from a winning perspective now than it did at the beginning of the season so maybe this isn’t realistic at all but it’s worth monitoring since towns has articulated how much he wanted to come to the knicks…. he will be a UFA in 2024…

      and that’s about it… those two are longshots as it is… other than that… it’s going to take awhile for anyone worthwhile to hit the market to start any kind of trade chatter.. the next big FA class comes in 2026 with Giannis… SGA.. Gobert… Tatum…. Donovan Mitchell….

      there are guys like Kawhi and Butler and KD who will hit UFA at some point also but they will be pretty old by then and will be an open question if it’s worth an investment let alone giving up a haul of picks… might still be worth it for KD but he’d have to want to come here first….

      tldr… Murray was likely the best target in a long while unless something surprising happens somewhere…

    206. Z-man: Most teams willing to give up unprotected picks believe that the picks won’t be in the lottery. Sometimes they’re wrong, but usually not.

      Agreed, but it’s still not the same. Many posters here seem to be thinking we could have traded our excess first rounders, all of which are protected, to San Antonio. I think not. We would have had to give our own picks unprotected. That would be much more valuable to them.

    207. Z-man: Sure, but it would be a screw-up in hindsight, which can happen with any deal. I mean, it was a screw-up to not trade KP for Devin Booker when it was possible but few felt that at the time.

      Good front offices have the foresight to project what opportunities might be available in the future and how they compare to those available now. That’s basically their job description in one sentence. Passing on Murray now, which I will repeat I agree was the correct decision, is an explicit bet that there will be better opportunities in the future.

      The reason I’m sympathetic to the opposing view is because a large part of my opposition to a Murray trade is rooted in the fact that I would also do a number of things differently than our current front office. A Murray trade doesn’t make much sense for a team in our current position, but this front office does a number of things that don’t make much sense for a team in our current position and a Murray trade might not be the most egregious among them.

      It can definitely be argued that based on this particular front office’s strategy, a Murray trade is as good an opportunity as we’re likely to have for a while.

      Z-man: I assume that by saying that, you’d be willing to bet big money that both of the unprotected ATL picks will convey as higher picks than the protected CHA pick, right? I mean it sounds like a pretty sure thing the way you are putting it…

      Uh, I dunno, define “big money” I guess? I’d have to know the odds and all that. I mean sure, at even odds I would bet an amount of money I could live without that this would be the case. I wouldn’t bet more than that, because that’s a dumb thing to do in general.

    208. “The Murray trade is very basic win curve stuff. If they had prime Kawhi there’s no chance he gets traded for picks.”

      Clearly, but it says something about strategy going forward and how they value Murray. It means they aren’t just retooling. They are doing a reset to zero. This is not a 2-4 year plan where Murray would still be at his peak. This is a 5-10 year plan depending on how lucky and sharp they are in the draft. It also means they don’t think Murray is good enough to build around. If they just had 25 year old Kawhi, they wouldn’t trade him for picks and reset to zero. They’d open space, try to add a star, and go from there.

      Finally, I think Murray wanted out. I heard this was about agents, Trae and Murray wanting to play with each other, Murray wanting to be on a contender etc…

    209. djphan: tldr… Murray was likely the best target in a long while unless something surprising happens somewhere…

      Yeah this is what I was trying to say but much more succinct. I personally would be against a Murray trade, but that’s largely because I think building through the draft is a better idea. Passing on Murray may well have been a mistake when viewed through the lens of this particular front office’s strategy, and since that’s the strategy they’ve chosen it’s completely fair to hold them accountable for the decision if it proves unwise.

    210. “Should we be be at all worried about Miami meeting with Brunson tomorrow?”

      Most people think these meetings with Dallas and Miami are just an effort to make sure no one can claim tampering. Officially a deal could not be struck before the FA period officially opened, but it’s an open secret he’s coming to NY.

    211. “as far as available young stars/really good players… murray probably ranks near the top over what could be available the next few years…. this is just spitballing but here’s who i have that might be available up to 2026….”

      Less than a year ago, Brunson was a very underrated backup PG trying to earn more minutes.

      Then Kidd realized how underrated he was and made him a starter.

      Then he was 2nd best player on the team.

      Then he was carrying Dallas on his back to playoff wins when Doncic was out.

      Now he’s going to become a Knick.

      You never know who is going to break out, become a starter, turn into a star, or become available. We don’t know some of the names yet. One could even be on our team already.

    212. Obviously Rose can use the same assets for a different player, but Murray would have solved a lot of problems. He’s a very good two-way player. Acquiring him at least would have been interesting.

      I’m guessing instead we’re going to get something… not as interesting.

    213. I still can’t figure out who else we might get. There aren’t a lot of rumors mentioning anyone. And I haven’t thought of any likely candidates. I’m hoping Brunson goes through, so at least we get something and the front office actually executes a plan fully. After that the Knicks may just make changes around the edges with smallish deals. Then our roster will be something like Gibson, Robinson, Sims, Randle, Toppin, Fournier, Reddish, Barrett, Grimes, McBride, Brunson, Rose, Quickley, Keels, and maybe Hunt and Arcidiacono. It seems like maybe we have some space free for another player or two. Where would we upgrade? If we don’t have a specific need you just try to get young players with upside. It’s why I was thinking of Monk. But if he’s unlikely, who are we chasing?

    214. Much of Murray’s value comes from his playmaking. I’m not sure how you can promise Brunson he’s going to be the PG and primary ball handler and then stick him with Murray. If Murray was a highly efficient scorer, it might be OK to play him off the ball to get his good rebounding and defense. But he’s not a very efficient scorer. IMO he’ll have less value on this team. I don’t think he’s ideal enough to use our war chest. IMO, what we need is an upgrade over Fournier, but his style player. Fournier is going to hit the open 3 at a high rate, score off the dribble a bit, and is generally an efficient scorer. I think he will be better this year with Brunson. But we need someone a little better than that on offense that also defends well. I’m not sure who that will be, but maybe Grimes can grow into it. He showed flashes. After that we have to settle the Randle/Obi issue. If Obi can hit the 3 fairly consistently and get better on D, the discussion is over. If not, we are stuck trying to make it work with Randle or to find the replacement. We need a solid stretch PF to go with someone like Mitch or eventually a replacement for Mitch. We aren’t that far away anymore and we have the assets. I also think with Brunson we have enough of a team to generate interest from other players in coming to NY now. The intangible value of Brunson and part of the reason to overpay is that he will help attract the next Domino.

    215. Hubert:
      Also… Julius didn’t look very happy last year. I can’t imagine him wanting to be that guy again.

      I’ve gotten a lot of things wrong here but I’ve been spot on with Julius Randle. When everyone called him untradeable after year 1, I said we should buy low on him. And when everyone else wanted to lock him up after year 2, I said we should sell high on him.

      Indeed you did. I remember us chatting about how each if us would approach a Randle extension after May ‘21. I thought the team should’ve tried to incentivize him to repeat his production again before giving him the extension bag, but the extension was thought to be mostly reasonable by most.

      Knick fan not in NJ:
      So no one cares for Malik Monk? It would be a disaster for the Lakers, and it might make Cdiggy happy.

      Hahahahahaa!!! Remember a few days ago when my supv told me they were getting Beal? Even though there was no way they could afford him? Malik Monk is the PERFECT consolation prize for them!
      Aaahhh-Hahahahahah!!!

    216. Strat, Orto Porter us actually a free agent and kind of meets what you describe above. I don’t know if he’s better that Fournier, but he can certainly play power forward.

    217. Can’t wait until tonight, I won’t believe that Brunson is ours until it’s officially announced.

    218. Z-man: Can’t wait until tonight, I won’t believe that Brunson is ours until it’s officially announced.

      Me neither. That meeting with Riley is making me anxious, he can offer Herro in a s&t and we can’t top that. And then Dallas appeals to Brunson that he should help them get the best of a s&t and that’ll be Miami and not the Knicks. Tick tock tick tock…

    219. Can’t wait until tonight, I won’t believe that Brunson is ours until it’s officially announced.

      I totally get that feeling, believe you me, but I just don’t see it this time. I mean, he’d have to scorn his own dad (who he is super close to) at the last minute! That seems hard to believe he’d do at this point.

    220. Brian Cronin: I totally get that feeling, believe you me, but I just don’t see it this time. I mean, he’d have to scorn his own dad (who he is super close to) at the last minute! That seems hard to believe he’d do at this point.

      Agree, but this is the lolKnicks, remember?

    221. @LangGreene: Crazy. The two teams KD and Kyrie CHOSE to LEAVE, willingly, just got finished battling in the NBA Finals.

      This is indeed ironic… and funny! :D

    222. Harden just declined his option so that he can sign a long term deal with the Sixers that makes it easier for them to acquire additional useful players. That’s not the move a primaDonna makes. It makes me think that it wasn’t just Harden being dickish when he wanted to leave. Maybe something isn’t right in the way the Nets team is managed.

    223. Most teams willing to give up unprotected picks believe that the picks won’t be in the lottery. Sometimes they’re wrong, but usually not.

      That’s why San Antonio asked for picks far out. The Pelicans did the same when they traded AD to the Lakers and ended up with a lottery pick that no one expected.

      It’s hard to forecast how good you’re going to be 5 years from today. If it were any 2 unprotected picks, I’d say the Knicks made a mistake. I’d be happy to give up 2023 & 2025 with a swap in between, for instance.

      Moving it out a few years changes the math completely. We can’t imagine how good or bad we’re going to be from 2025-27. History indicates it will likely be bad. We could have been trading the next Tim Duncan for Dejounte Murray.

      It’s too much risk and I applaud Leon for not paying the price.

    224. Harden just declined his option so that he can sign a long term deal with the Sixers that makes it easier for them to acquire additional useful players. That’s not the move a primaDonna makes. It makes me think that it wasn’t just Harden being dickish when he wanted to leave. Maybe something isn’t right in the way the Nets team is managed.

      I mean, Kyrie literally sat out most of the season in a egocentric petulant stunt, so I think it is fair to say that Harden had real reasons to not be happy there.

    225. Brian Cronin: I mean, Kyrie literally sat out most of the season in a egocentric petulant stunt, so I think it is fair to say that Harden had real reasons to not be happy there.

      I think the Nets are now aware of what having a Kyrie does to team building.

      Windhorst: “When Kyrie announced he was opting in, I was like ‘okay, we can move on. This won’t be a thing’. But that’s not what my phone was telling me. That’s not what the executives were telling me. That’s not what the agents were telling me. They are saying this ain’t over, because the Nets made it clear to everybody they did not want the status quo. If nothing else changed, they were not going to be happy. They were not sure that this satisfied that situation.”

    226. Hubert: That’s why San Antonio asked for picks far out. The Pelicans did the same when they traded AD to the Lakers and ended up with a lottery pick that no one expected.

      It’s hard to forecast how good you’re going to be 5 years from today.

      How true. It still hurts thinking of the 2004 Marbury trade where we gave up a 2010 1RP (can’t remember what if any protections were on it). By 2010, Marbury was off the team, the guy that made the trade was off the team, we were in semi-tank mode waiting for Lebron to join, and that pick became Gordon Hayward.

    227. I am generally not worried about the Miami meeting but I find it weird that Miami and Riley would play along with this charade if it’s just to avoid tampering. Is this one of those agent things? Or Brunson says he’s going to meet with Miami and then cancels the (not-actually-scheduled) meeting after sitting down with his dad and godfather and being blown away by their vision?

    228. Hubert: Moving it out a few years changes the math completely. We can’t imagine how good or bad we’re going to be from 2025-27. History indicates it will likely be bad. We could have been trading the next Tim Duncan for Dejounte Murray.

      Knicks trade a 2023 pick that sucks for a top 4 protected 1st a couple years out and it’s a bad trade. Another team takes a pick a couple years out and it’s brilliant.

    229. Brian Cronin: I mean, Kyrie literally sat out most of the season in a egocentric petulant stunt, so I think it is fair to say that Harden had real reasons to not be happy there.

      Fuck James Harden, that shit he pulled in Houston getting fat and not trying is unforgivable. He’s a douchebag of the highest order.

    230. Knicks trade a 2023 pick that sucks for a top 4 protected 1st a couple years out and it’s a bad trade. Another team takes a pick a couple years out and it’s brilliant.

      I never said that trade sucked. I have not commented on any of the moves Leon made on draft day this year. I’m waiting for the dust to settle.

    231. Fuck James Harden, that shit he pulled in Houston getting fat and not trying is unforgivable. He’s a douchebag of the highest order.

      Agreed, except that he’s a douchebag of the second highest order. Kyrie clearly trumped (sic) him. Which is kind of amazing.

      There are no limits to the depravity of man…

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