Knicks Morning News (2022.06.28)

  • Eddy Curry opens up about his time with the New York Knicks ? “That was the year I started experiencing knee problems” – Basketball Network
    [www.basketballnetwork.net] — Tuesday, June 28, 2022 5:08:28 AM

    Eddy Curry opens up about his time with the New York Knicks ? “That was the year I started experiencing knee problems”  Basketball Network

  • Knicks are the favorites to land Jalen Brunson now – Hoops Hype
    [hoopshype.com] — Tuesday, June 28, 2022 3:09:30 AM

    Knicks are the favorites to land Jalen Brunson now  Hoops Hype

  • Gates-Cole defeats Notre Dame Schools in Utica Lady Knicks Premier League, 54-50 – WUTR/WFXV – CNYhomepage.com
    [www.cnyhomepage.com] — Monday, June 27, 2022 11:51:18 PM

    Gates-Cole defeats Notre Dame Schools in Utica Lady Knicks Premier League, 54-50  WUTR/WFXV – CNYhomepage.com

  • “Michael was so fundamentally sound that people don’t realize, he played for Dean Smith for three years” – Former New York Knicks star stresses on the importance of having the right basketball fundamentals – Sportskeeda
    [www.sportskeeda.com] — Monday, June 27, 2022 7:51:28 PM

    “Michael was so fundamentally sound that people don’t realize, he played for Dean Smith for three years” – Former New York Knicks star stresses on the importance of having the right basketball fundamentals  Sportskeeda

  • Game over? Plaintiffs’ lawyers banned from Madison Square Garden by MSG – Reuters.com
    [www.reuters.com] — Monday, June 27, 2022 6:07:00 PM

    Game over? Plaintiffs’ lawyers banned from Madison Square Garden by MSG  Reuters.com

  • New York Knicks: 2 trade targets if team signs Jalen Brunson – Sportsnaut
    [sportsnaut.com] — Monday, June 27, 2022 5:39:46 PM

    New York Knicks: 2 trade targets if team signs Jalen Brunson  Sportsnaut

  • Latest Kyrie Irving news reportedly draws zero interest from Knicks – Daily Knicks
    [dailyknicks.com] — Monday, June 27, 2022 5:00:00 PM

    Latest Kyrie Irving news reportedly draws zero interest from Knicks  Daily KnicksThe Knicks-Nets Trade Sends Kyrie Irving To New York  NBA Analysis NetworkKyrie Irving rumors: Lakers, Knicks among five potential destinations for Nets’ All-Star point guard  CBS SportsKyrie Irving Rumors: Lakers, Clippers, Knicks, Heat, 76ers, More Interest Nets Star  Bleacher ReportKnicks’ reported desire to overpay this PG may land Kyrie Irving on Lakers  Lakeshow LifeView Full Coverage on Google News

  • Donovan Mitchell grabs dinner with Knicks’ Immanuel Quickley amid trade rumors – New York Post
    [nypost.com] — Monday, June 27, 2022 3:56:00 PM

    Donovan Mitchell grabs dinner with Knicks’ Immanuel Quickley amid trade rumors  New York Post

  • Knicks’ RJ Barrett extension question: How much will it take? – The Athletic
    [theathletic.com] — Monday, June 27, 2022 11:46:10 AM

    Knicks’ RJ Barrett extension question: How much will it take?  The Athletic

  • Pod Strickland: Episode 206 – The Strickland
    [www.thestrick.land] — Monday, June 27, 2022 10:56:57 AM

    Pod Strickland: Episode 206  The Strickland

  • Russell Westbrook Next Team Odds: Could the Knicks Make a Play? – OddsChecker
    [www.oddschecker.com] — Monday, June 27, 2022 9:44:00 AM

    Russell Westbrook Next Team Odds: Could the Knicks Make a Play?  OddsChecker

  • Defending Knicks’ front office decisions in 2022 NBA Draft – Daily Knicks
    [dailyknicks.com] — Monday, June 27, 2022 8:00:00 AM

    Defending Knicks’ front office decisions in 2022 NBA Draft  Daily KnicksNew York Knicks Blow Draft Night on Another Hopeless Bet  Bleacher ReportKnicks trade No. 11 pick to Thunder for multiple 1st-round picks  NBA.comKnicks rumors: Why New York was ‘never’ a serious Kyrie Irving suitor  ClutchPointsDuke assistant sees NBA starter in Knicks’ pick Trevor Keels: ‘Potential is there’  New York Post View Full Coverage on Google News

  • Liked it? Take a second to support Administrator on Patreon!

    220 thoughts to “Knicks Morning News (2022.06.28)”

    1. Z-man: Murray is obvious the better all-around player and I would love to have him. But you would rephrase the question as: would you rather have Brunson and the player you can get with the assets you would have expended that you used to acquire Murray, or just Murray without those assets?

      Can we get both? Sign Brunson as a FA and then get Murray? That would be quite an upgrade.

    2. Wall to the Clippers. If the team comes back healthy and there’s anything left in that guy’s tank, that could be an interesting team. Although it feels doomed.

    3. Alan is in the midst of a twitter discussion about team-building strategy — and the trouble is, the only real ways to build success are:

      1) straight out tanking, which requires even more tankage now with the new lottery odds (Hinkie/Presti plan)

      2) pie-in-the-sky moonshots hoping that Max Player X will decide he wants to be traded to your team (Rose plan)

      3) Finding dumb/desperate teams to make crazy trades with you (Pelicans/Lakers/Bucks, OKC/Clippers) – bear in mind this strategy only works if you are fortunate enough to luck into really good players in the draft but bad enough that you need to blow it up by trading said players in said crazy trades) — and then you have to luck into good lottery luck + years in which those picks coincide with good players (ie. Dallas gets/trades for #3 pick and gets Luka, we get #3 pick and get RJ Barrett).

      4) Unearthing all-NBA players in the late lottery (Donovan, Giannis) or 20s (Gobert) or 40s (Jokic) — not really a reliable way of doing business but sure if it works for you then great.

      By far the strategy that is most likely to work is straight-out tanking — if done by a functional organization who has a plan (Philly, ongoing OKC, Detroit) as opposed to incompetent organizations that stink and so can’t make good use of resources. But this is just terrible for the league. OKC has been able to hide from scrutiny because of Presti’s prestige and the fact they’re in OKC. You have to imagine it would be far less palatable for the league if the Knicks were to do it.

      continued…

    4. This brings me back to my lottery proposal from years ago — you have to reward teams for trying to win.
      Brief recap:
      From Game 1 to Game X – losses get you lottery “points”
      From Game X to Game 82 – wins get you lottery “points”
      Game X is determined randomly after the season is over so teams cannot game it (and probably should be at least game 50 or something so that truly terrible teams don’t get stuck in hell).

      This would immediately get rid of late-season tanking as losing games at the end of the year doesn’t obviously help you.

      If you set X to be at least greater than a certain game number, then the teams that are truly terrible will still get a pretty good pick – it just can’t be predicted.

      Teams that play pedal to the metal to the end probably will get rewarded for those wins.

      The revelation of “X” could be a TV event in and of itself.

      Luck is still involved, but at least teams are incentivized to win rather than sit players like SGA for multiple seasons.

      I still can’t find a reason why this is a bad proposal other than that it’s “complicated”.

    5. A couple of things leftover from yesterday’s thread.

      1. I think the FO realizes they blew it on Reddish. (I can’t remember if I read this somewhere or if it just came up in conversation with an NBA reporter, but there is a belief that the team didn’t do its homework on Reddish the person rather than Reddish the alleged star talent, which is in and of itself not confidence-inspiring.) And now they’re trying to avoid the sunk cost fallacy. The Incineration Trade was dumb, flipping that pick for a guy with Cam’s resume was dumber, so just move on and get some cap space out of the next sucker who believes there is still untapped ability there.

      2. If we are successful in trading Burks into Boston’s trade exception (or somewhere else) and thus open up enough space to offer Brunson (per Macri’s numbers) $113.5 million over 4 years, what kind of sign-and-trade could we even pull off with Dallas at that point? Just Brunson for a trade exception? Brunson and Cam for a pick of some kind? I had assumed Burks and/or Noel would be going to Dallas as part of said deal (assuming Dallas and Noel are both over the bad blood there).

    6. Fred Katz has a great piece on how complicated RJ’s extension could be. Katz acknowledges how inefficient RJ has been so far, while also pointing out that he’s improved parts of his game every year, has one of the league’s great work ethics, etc. A couple of notable excerpts, but I highly recommend the whole piece, because there’s a lot of nuance:

      The Athletic conducted a poll, asking 16 officials in NBA front offices what they would deem a fair number for Barrett in an extension this summer or fall. Responses ranged from $15 million to $30 million a year. No one advocated for the Knicks to give him the max. Exactly half of the responses were a nice, clean four years, $100 million, making it by far the most common proposal from the polled executives.

      and

      The Knicks could make a proposal below the max, then tell him if he plays like a max player in 2022-23, they’ll give him the contract he wants in free agency. His restricted status means that the Knicks can match any offer he receives elsewhere to bring him back for the same price. If Barrett were a robot, that strategy might be best, but real life doesn’t always work so mechanically.

      Not too long ago, the Utah Jazz let at-the-time restricted free agent Gordon Hayward sign a max offer sheet with the Hornets, then matched it to bring him back. Four years later, when the aforementioned contract expired, Utah not showing enough faith in Hayward the first time around was one of the reasons cited for the All-Star forward signing with the Celtics. A similar situation occurred with Kevin Love during negotiations for his rookie-scale extension in 2011. The Timberwolves gave Love the max but offered only four years, not five. Today, a comparable dynamic is playing out with the Suns and Deandre Ayton after Phoenix elected not to extend the former No. 1 pick back in the fall…

    7. And, yes, Frank, I think I need to mute that conversation rather than continuing to engage with the blind loyalists who refuse to acknowledge that this franchise has tried the whole “retool and compete and hope a star player demands to be traded here” plan under multiple administrations without success, and literally the one time this century that we actively tanked, we got RJ. (RJ is unlikely to be a superstar, but imagine if we had multiple RJ-level players as opposed to RJ and a lot of fun role player types.) Time to be productive! Maybe.

    8. The funny thing about the “sit on our hands and hope a star demands a trade” plan is if/when a star does actually demand a trade, we’ll be in a way worse position to pull it off than the teams who have actually focused on accumulating assets. OKC could blow us away as far as trade offers go, so could a number of other teams in all likelihood.

      The “hybrid” method isn’t just a dumb way to build a good team, it’s a dumb way to accumulate valuable trade assets too. We just saw this play out with the Ivey negotiations—people loved saying we didn’t need high picks of our own because we could always trade up, seemingly unaware we could not force the teams with the high picks to actually make such a trade.

      We’re not trading for a star without assets of our own that could at least theoretically become a star, and right now we don’t even have those.

    9. Murray is a very good all around player and young enough for a team like ours, but he’s not exactly the most efficient scorer despite being on a team noted for good ball movement and great coaching. It would not shock me if that’s partly why the Spurs are willing to trade him and start all over in their rebuild. He’s a good player, but not a centerpiece type you want to build around. The Spurs floundered around for quite a few years seemingly not sure what to do after they lost Kawhi. It seems they are going to do a reset.

    10. Alan:
      A couple of things leftover from yesterday’s thread.

      1. I think the FO realizes they blew it on Reddish. (I can’t remember if I read this somewhere or if it just came up in conversation with an NBA reporter, but there is a belief that the team didn’t do its homework on Reddish the person rather than Reddish the alleged star talent, which is in and of itself not confidence-inspiring.) And now they’re trying to avoid the sunk cost fallacy. The Incineration Trade was dumb, flipping that pick for a guy with Cam’s resume was dumber, so just move on and get some cap space out of the next sucker who believes there is still untapped ability there.

      2. If we are successful in trading Burks into Boston’s trade exception (or somewhere else) and thus open up enough space to offer Brunson (per Macri’s numbers) $113.5 million over 4 years, what kind of sign-and-trade could we even pull off with Dallas at that point? Just Brunson for a trade exception? Brunson and Cam for a pick of some kind? I had assumed Burks and/or Noel would be going to Dallas as part of said deal (assuming Dallas and Noel are both over the bad blood there).

      Two comments, One, I think you might have heard the first from a reporter. I haven’t read it anywhere. It’s depressing if true. Two, if we sign Brunson to a free agent deal I don’t think we will get it turned into a sign and trade because base year compensation stuff just seems too difficult. But I don’t think we’d give them players unless they were players we wanted to rid of. Making it into a trade means Dallas would get a trade exception instead of nothing. They’d have to pay us for that, but wouldn’t expect to get a lot from them.

    11. The New York Knicks have had exploratory discussions on trading center Nerlens Noel to the Los Angeles Clippers, league sources told HoopsHype. Noel could fit into the Clippers’ $9.7 million trade exception previously generated by the Serge Ibaka trade. The Knicks have a surplus of draft pick compensation (22 picks total over the next seven years) to dangle.

    12. 1. The Knicks weren’t the only team to strike out on Ivey. A boatload of teams wanted to move up to get him and couldn’t. The Piston were too high on him to move him PERIOD.

      2. When it comes to disgruntled stars, it’s not always about assets. It’s also about destination. The stars have a LOT of control over destination both in free agency and in trades. Star players have to like the market (Miami, LA, Chicago, NY, San Fran etc..), feel confident in management/coaching, and feel that they can be a difference maker because the team is already good. A team like OKC has to take the approach they took because no stars are clamoring to go to OKC. They can offer 5 1sts but if the star says “no”, it’s back to the draft and the very slow development process.

      3. NY has barely even taken a hybrid approach with the exception of maybe Fournier (which is the one contract I’ve been complaining about). Everything else has been, “We have a lot of cap space, we still suck, and we can’t land our top target. So lets fill it with short term contracts that retain flexibility”. There haven’t been any long contracts with older players. These are all mercenaries except for Fournier.

      4. You can argue they could have used the space to take on a horrible contract and add a pick, but a deal like that has to be available and you have to feel the pick compensation is worth the lost flexibility. Also, unless you want to be the Rockets and send that overpaid player to Siberia (not exactly going to win points with agents and players) he’s going to contribute just like a mercenary.

      5. You can argue that once this season was over, they should have pulled the plug sooner and started playing the young players more minutes. That is a cost of Thibs. You might lose a position in the draft to gain the push for work ethic, merit, earning minutes, keep the vets happy etc.. In this case, if he pulled the plug sooner we probably would have won more games.

    13. I think we will ultimately get assets back in trade for Noel and Burks. Both are good players who are fairly paid, and if going into TPEs, are basically free players for teams who have limited avenues for improvement, and who can then further improve their teams using an MLE. Depending on how many teams are interested in Burks in particular, I can actually imagine we might get even a very protected 1st rounder. He’s a valuable player playing a valuable position that could play real minutes in the playoffs – there just aren’t many players like him available on 1 year $9-10MM deals with team options on a 2nd year.

      Or maybe I’m just overly optimistic, I don’t know.

    14. I don’t think anything we’ve read on Reddish is true except that Thibs was not in favor of the trade. He prefers set rotations, didn’t have a rotation slot for him, and prefers defenders. I think this is a case where management disagrees with Thibs, but is going to relent and possibly move him. I don’t think it was a bad trade, but it was a terrible trade if your coach is telling you “I don’t want that guy and I’m not going to play him unless there is an injury”. Of course, then he got injured and we didn’t even get to see enough of him to know anything given he was constantly hurt or less than 100% in Atlanta too.

    15. Frank, I think the odds are better that Burks would bring back an asset than that Noel would. As you say, Burks plays the most valuable position and can be a playoff rotation player. Noel just has such a spotty injury history that, coming off a season where he was mostly hurt, I suspect the best we can hope for is to give him away.

    16. Two questions. Actually one question and one thought.

      A) Is Murray a better option than Brunson (just talking pure player here, not what it would cost to get one vs. the other)

      B) The Spurs might be a team that would trade a guy like Murray for a few late first round picks and/or second round picks. Their an organization that has a history of finding diamonds in the rough later in the draft and developing them into very good players. They might value later picks than other organizations, trusting their ability to make good on them.

    17. Deeefense!!:
      I don’t think anything we’ve read on Reddish is true except that Thibs was not in favor of the trade. He prefers set rotations, didn’t have a rotation slot for him, and prefers defenders.I think this is a case where management disagrees with Thibs, but is going to relent and possibly move him.I don’t think it was a bad trade, but it was a terrible trade if your coach is telling you “I don’t want that guy and I’m not going to play him unless there is an injury”.Of course, then he got injured and we didn’t even get to see enough of him to know anything given he was constantly hurt or less than 100% in Atlanta too.

      Maybe Thibs was saying don’t trade for the guy, but I can’t tell that from Thibs’ behavior. He treated Reddish the same way as everyone else and made him show what he could do in practice before giving him minutes. Since Reddish was acquired in the middle of the season, it probably took a while to get practices in. But then Thibs gave Reddish regular minutes until his injury. This just seems to me Thibs being Thibs, not Thibs being unwilling to play him.

    18. ptmilo, I actually became a big fan of Pritchard while watching the EC Finals. He was the 7th man on an NBA finals team who made significant impact on several games. During the Miami series I mentioned here that I see him as a reasonable best case outcome for IQ.

      As for those who don’t understand he’s much better than Quickley right now, have you ever looked at Quickley’s stats? Pritchard is a 41% 3P shooter with a .563 eFG%. Quickley is, well, not. Pritchard is two years older, though, and there’s a fine chance IQ reaches his level.

      We know Leon wants high-impact, NBA ready guards. He’s missed on quite a few. Again, that doesn’t make him bad. Success can be measured many ways, but failure is always the same: it’s an inability to meet your goals. And that’s where Leon is right now.

    19. Murray is a better player than Brunson but you can’t separate the acquisition cost from the player. Brunson will cost you basically nothing but $ at this point (+/- a 2nd rounder to open up the space) whereas Murray will likely cost 3 or more first round picks given age, 2 years left on (below-market) contract, and likely 1-2 of our young players. This team also really struggles with efficient scoring, which is what Brunson does best and what Murray does worst. I think honestly the acquisition of Brunson makes more sense right now. If you blow your entire asset chest on Murray, I don’t think the ceiling is high enough. Not that the ceiling with Brunson is so much higher, but at least we still have all the picks and young players.

    20. Hopefully we’ll just be able to dump Noel for like a swap of second round picks. I think the Clippers are going to lose Hartenstein so they desperately need rim protection.

    21. I am disappointed that we did not take Tari Eason with #13. I think he is a player as sure as it gets in the draft (good size/athleticism, good shooting numbers, just a sophomore).

      However, I think the deals done are fair IF we get Brunson. Getting extra picks in the future for your current one seems to me a way of getting extra value at the cost of being patient, and I am ok with that. Paying for getting someone to take Kemba stings, but it is not a big price to take advantage of the FA market. I really believe that having Brunson on the team will drastically change how it looks, I believe we could get again to 4th/5th in the east. It was painful how the defense and the offense suffered because we did not have an adequate player at the point of attack.

      There are two other things I would like to see:
      1) Ship Fournier wherever. I think he destroyed our defense, offsetting any gain on offense.
      2) Cash in RJ and Cam Reddish while they have some value. To me, they are negative players that are still valued because of Youth/Athleticism/Points, we should get something before they lose their appeal.

      And in case we don’t trade RJ, then:
      2b) Ship Randle, Burks, Noel, Rose, maybe try to get something for Mitch. Fire Thibs and tank hard. Let RJ be the tank commander.

    22. Remember that Burks had foot surgery once the season ended. That doesn’t mean no team will trade for him, but they are probably going to want to see his medical records. It’s quite possible he has to give permission for that. That would give him some say in where he goes.

    23. Hubert, can’t you convince the Clippers that they really need Randle at center instead of Noel?

      As for Reddish, I don’t think it’s necessarily personal (except there were reports that Thibs didn’t prefer a trade for him); it’s more that it would take a miracle for Reddish to become valuable enough to sign to a long-term contract.

      He would need to wildly improve — one might say to current Wiggins levels, not to a 22-year-old Wiggins level (and you could argue that Reddish has never improved since she started playing organized basketball) — because this team would rather have cap flexibility than another negative or even-value player that won’t move the needle in a trade.

      I’m clearly not explaining this well enough but am hopefully getting the main point across. It’s not that I don’t like Reddish or don’t think he’s valuable; he’s just a lot more valuable to an OKC-type team than a Rose-run Knicks.

    24. Sorry, DJ, but my reading of last season’s statistical profiles of Hali and Obi simply do not show that Hali is currently the better player. In fact Obi is.

      What statistics point to Obi currently being better than Halliburton?

      If Obi improves further in his 3rd season which is likely on additional playing time

      He won’t be better if he has the same per 36 numbers in more minutes. That’s pre-Knickerblogger thinking.

      his profile would rate him is a very good player in the league.

      I believe Obi Toppin can and will be a good player in this league.

      The thesis here is that a GM should be graded on whether or not he chose the best player available, not whether or not the player he selected outperforms the historical output of his draft position.

      For example, Ricky Rubio outproduced the average return of the #5 slot, but Steph Curry was taken at #7. No one would look at that draft and say the T’Wolves did a great job.

    25. Hubert: As for those who don’t understand he’s much better than Quickley right now, have you ever looked at Quickley’s stats? Pritchard is a 41% 3P shooter with a .563 eFG%. Quickley is, well, not. Pritchard is two years older, though, and there’s a fine chance IQ reaches his level.

      Pritchard doesn’t rebound, pass, defend or get to the line except in an opportunistic sense on a loaded team. He’s essentially the PG version of Steve Novak. He was exposed as essentially useless during the NBA finals. IQ is already a better all-around player and is likely not as close to his ceiling as Pritchard. Picking IQ over Pritchard is hardly something to criticize management for. I would guess that nearly every GM in the league would agree with me on this, and would prefer IQ in a trade over Pritchard.

    26. Hubert: For example, Ricky Rubio outproduced the average return of the #5 slot, but Steph Curry was taken at #7. No one would look at that draft and say the T’Wolves did a great job.

      No, but at the time the consensus was that Rubio would be the better NBA player. No one thought that Steph Curry was a future immortal.

      Now Jonny Flynn is another story…

    27. What statistics point to Obi currently being better than Halliburton?

      He rates better than Hali in some of the RAPM flavors (EPM & LEBRON)

    28. Hubert: The thesis here is that a GM should be graded on whether or not he chose the best player available, not whether or not the player he selected outperforms the historical output of his draft position.

      For example, Ricky Rubio outproduced the average return of the #5 slot, but Steph Curry was taken at #7. No one would look at that draft and say the T’Wolves did a great job.

        

      Interesting take, but I disagree. There is just too much hindsight built into your method. For example, Blake Griffin was the consensus best player and was taken no.1 in that draft. MVPs Harden was 3 and Curry was 7. I would argue that whoever the GM of the Clippers was that took Blake did a good job (if one could say a Clipper GM in that period actually did a good job, and since it was such an easy decision probably doesn’t merit much in the way of accolades).

    29. Pritchard doesn’t rebound, pass, defend or get to the line except in an opportunistic sense on a loaded team… He was exposed as essentially useless during the NBA finals. IQ is already a better all-around player and is likely not as close to his ceiling as Pritchard

      While you are correct about the FTr, there is no basis for anything else you said.

      (Pritchard’s numbers first)

      DRtg: 113 to 112
      Steals/36: 1.0 to 1.0
      Blocks/36: 0.2 to 0.2
      Rebs/36: 4.6 to 4.5
      Asst/36: 4.1 to 4.8
      REB%: 7.1 to 6.8

      Here’s where Pritchard creates distance (for now, at least)

      eFG%: .563 to .491
      TS%: .580 to .549
      3P%: 41.2 to 36.5

      That’s a significant margin.

    30. Is it fair to really judge a Gm for picking Rubio over Curry though? Or to the larger point, is it really brilliant GM draft picking to pick a future hall of famer? Especially when it’s someone like Curry who did have a lot of question marks as a prospect (small, played at a small school, etc.) Curry’s handle improved tremendously once he became a pro.

      I guess the larger point for me is that no GM can really look into a crystal ball and know what work ethic/drive/joie de vivre a 20something basketball player is going to have once they start making millions of dollars. Any lottery pick, even one that flames out after their first contract, comes into the league immediately making millions of dollars. It is very hard to determine if that sudden wealth and fame, etc…will dull their drive to get better. Then throw in injury risks, which is beyond the control of anyone or even just the fact that some players no matter how hard they work, once they face NBA level competition, can only get so good.

      So I think it’s really unfair to say a GM failed to not pick the next Curry or Jokic or Giannis if they made a solid pick before that player. Obviously a GM looks like a genius when they draft Curry or later in the draft picks up the next Jimmy Butler. But these are obviously very lucky picks. If you pick good players that aren’t busts, that to me is a better way to judge how good a GM is.

      I mean, what evidence is there before Giannis that Milwaukee had the secret formula that led them to draft Giannis?

    31. It’s called a lottery because it’s luck. Is someone a genius for buying a lottery ticket that hits the jackpot? No. They’re lucky. That same person you would call dumb if they wasted their money on lottery tickets that never hit.

    32. As for being “exposed as useless in the NBA Finals”, what are you talking about? The fact that he could even be the 8th man on an NBA Finals team is significant. Immanuel Quickley was useless in the first round against Atlanta.

      He was also part of their best lineup in the ECF when they went small to beat Miami. The kid can play.

      None of this matters. You’re not going to prove Leon nailed the draft by knocking Payton Pritchard. Leon wanted an immediate-impact NBA-ready guard. He didn’t get one. Two teams behind him (Boston and Memphis) did.

      This doesn’t mean Leon sucks. Everything else he’s done means Leon sucks. This just means you can’t say he’s great at the draft (a comical position to begin with, as the 19th pick fiasco alone disqualifies him from such a distinction).

    33. Deeefense!!: 1. The Knicks weren’t the only team to strike out on Ivey. A boatload of teams wanted to move up to get him and couldn’t. The Piston were too high on him to move him PERIOD.

      This contradicts all the reporting on the matter. There are definitely situations where a team won’t move off a pick for any package, this was not one of them. Begley reported there were talks during the week leading up to the draft, and we know we tried our damndest on draft night too. Do you think we just kept harassing the Pistons after they said “we are not interested in any package?” We just didn’t have the juice unless we were willing to go full Billy King for a guy who hasn’t played a summer league game.

      Deeefense!!: A team like OKC has to take the approach they took because no stars are clamoring to go to OKC.

      They took this risk with Paul George and it paid off. The Raptors did it with Kawhi too. No one is going to sit out the sweepstakes of a superstar with multiple years left on his contract. Of course it’s beneficial to play in an attractive market, but it’s not a substitute for actually having attractive assets.

      Deeefense!!: Everything else has been, “We have a lot of cap space, we still suck, and we can’t land our top target. So lets fill it with short term contracts that retain flexibility”.

      This is a hybrid approach. There is literally no reason to do this unless those contracts project to be valuable, and none of ours did even when they were signed. OKC does not do this when they’re filling out their roster, because they’re not trying the “hybrid” nonsense.

    34. swiftandabundant:
      It’s called a lottery because it’s luck. Is someone a genius for buying a lottery ticket that hits the jackpot? No. They’re lucky. That same person you would call dumb if they wasted their money on lottery tickets that never hit.

      As opposed to all the control and skill involved in hoping a superstar demands a trade, and does so in such a way he’ll wind up with the Knicks even though we don’t have the best package. Now that’s controlling your own destiny, baby!

    35. Hubert: While you are correct about the FTr, there is no basis for anything else you said.

      (Pritchard’s numbers first)

      DRtg: 113 to 112
      Steals/36: 1.0 to 1.0
      Blocks/36: 0.2 to 0.2
      Rebs/36: 4.6 to 4.5
      Asst/36: 4.1 to 4.8
      REB%: 7.1 to 6.8

      Here’s where Pritchard creates distance (for now, at least)

      eFG%: .563 to .491
      TS%: .580 to .549
      3P%: 41.2 to 36.5

      That’s a significant margin.

      I will grant you that purely statistically speaking Pritchard is thus far at least comparable if not better than IQ. But he was also in a much better situation with a clearly defined role that he was already groomed for the previous year. IQ was converted into a PG, which historically is very hard to do without major growing pains, and yet in the last 6 games when he was finally turned loose he had two triple-doubles plus a 7 rebound-7 assist game and a 6 rebound-10 assist game, all with 3 or less TOVs. He also got to the line a bunch. It’s a small sample, but it suggested that he could indeed be a very valuable rotation player, more so than Pritchard.

      And that’s why lots of Knicks fans see him as almost untouchable right now. Obviously that’s a stretch, but I for one am much more excited at what he could bring to our team than I would be about Pritchard, and think he’s a more valuable trade chip than Pritchard right now around the league. Sure, we can have an honest disagreement about this, but it’s pretty far-fetched to suggest that the FO got this one wrong.

    36. swiftandabundant:
      It’s called a lottery because it’s luck. Is someone a genius for buying a lottery ticket that hits the jackpot? No. They’re lucky. That same person you would call dumb if they wasted their money on lottery tickets that never hit.

      Come on, the NBA draft is much different than a state lottery. How teams in the lottery are slotted has some luck, but odds get better the more “ping pong balls” a team gets. Then, teams get to select the players they want from those still available. In state lotteries and such the chance to win is so ridiculously low that yes, it is pretty much 100% luck, even if a person buys lots of tickets.

      Is their some luck involved in drafting? Sure, using Curry again, the Knicks supposedly wanted him, but GS took him one pick earlier. Bad luck for the Knicks. But, then again, the Knicks could have tried to trade up to get him if they were that sure that he’d be real good.

      I do agree with an earlier post about cherry picking draft picks from the past. Maybe rip a team or GM if one “reaches” for someone with lots of better choice on the board, like the Knicks did with Kevin Knox. I mean, that was a bad pick, bad decision making, not bad luck.

    37. YEah, a lot of NBA success is luck. Golden State wasn’t the best run franchise before they drafted Curry.

      Immanuel Quickley was useless in the first round against Atlanta.

      I remember IQ actually being one of the bright spots of that playoff series for us.

    38. it’s pretty far-fetched to suggest that the FO got this one wrong.

      AGAIN…

      You’re trying to twist this into “I’m criticizing Leon for not being perfect” or for taking IQ over Pritchard. I am not. Those are side arguments that have nothing to do with the thesis.

      The thesis is Leon has not done a good job.

      Your counter was “he’s put us in the best position we’ve been in all century because he’s crushed the draft.”

      I believe:

      a) we are not in a great position; in fact we aren’t better than when Leon got here.

      b) he has not crushed the draft. He’s made some huge mistakes, and even the best selections you can point to were good but not optimal.

      c) nothing he’s done in the draft makes his tenure a net positive.

      IQ v PP is an irrelevant side argument that proves nothing. Bane was the BPA anyway.

    39. Alan:
      Testing… Will this one go through when others have not?

      I’ve been having trouble, too. Tells me I’m not logged in when I am.

    40. IQ was a fantastic pick, hands down. One that was ridiculed and criticized widely when it happened. He was the 25th pick in the draft and has turned into a future 6th man of the year type player and possible starter. There is no world where he wasn’t a good pick.

      Grimes has a similar projection although it’s hard to tell because he got injured. But with what we saw, he looks to be a super solid 3 and D player with maybe some more potential beyond that.

      Obi got off to a slow start and has had to bide his time because he’s behind Randle. But many thought he was a bad pick at the start of his career and he’s turned into a solid player and still has room to grow. One of the biggest areas of concern for him was defense and he’s improved enough there to be neutral or only a slight negative on that side, which is pretty big for him considering where he started. It was a solid pick.

      Sims has also been a really fantastic pick especially for a 2nd rounder.

      We don’t know about Rokas yet. McBride either.

      But I would say Leon has done well with the picks he’s made. The issue is the incineration gate last year and then using picks this year to get rid of Kemba. Neither are optimal but seem to also be overblown by some people on this board.

    41. I’m not a big fan of Leon Rose by a longshot but he has done pretty well with the picks he has actually made rather than punted. The Quickley pick worked out great, he’s a genuine asset and it was even an out of the box kind of pick. So bravo on that one for sure.

      My problem is the punting of picks, and the lack of willingness to roll the dice on upside plays. It would have been far, far better to roll the dice on an upside play with the incineration pick rather than trade it for a sack of magic beans with a hole in it.

    42. I remember IQ actually being one of the bright spots of that playoff series for us.

      He was 10 for 33, only made three trips to the line the whole series, and had more turnovers than assists.

      Look, I like Immanuel Quickley. I thought he was great down the stretch last year and he’s probably the Knick I am most excited about this season.

      But I get the sense that a lot people who love him haven’t looked at his statistics.

    43. So strange. I’ve tried and failed three times to link to a report saying the Spurs are asking for four 1sts “with little to no protections” for Murray, or failing that, “three minimally protected first rounders and two unprotected first round pick swaps.”

    44. I blocked a lot of that series out. I think I’m just remembering one stretch in game 5 when we were down and IQ kind of led that last little charge that could have put us back in the game.

    45. Alan:
      So strange. I’ve tried and failed three times to link to a report saying the Spurs are asking for four 1sts “with little to no protections” for Murray, or failing that, “three minimally protected first rounders and two unprotected first round pick swaps.”

      Well, that settles that debate. Brunson it is.

      I’ve said before I think the Rose regime’s drafting has been solid, if unspectacular. For that reason I wish they didn’t incinerate a pick in a draft with a lot of intriguing players left on the board.

      I think “pick the single best player available” is usually an unfair standard, though there are specific instances in which the best player is so obvious it’s a screw-up not to pick them even if you wind up with a player who returns value on the slot. The Suns shouldn’t feel okay about picking Ayton even if his value is more or less commensurate with the expected return on the #1 pick. Something like Quickley over Bane is fine though.

    46. The Murray trade proposal I saw was Obi, Quick, Reddish and basically all of our first round picks.

      I like Murray, but that’s a fuck ton of assets to give up for a not quite superstar.

    47. If you believe in RAPTOR stats, Quickley fares really well in WAR (53rd) while Pritchard comes in much lower (133rd).

    48. thenoblefacehumper: Well, that settles that debate. Brunson it is.

      I’ve said before I think the Rose regime’s drafting has been solid, if unspectacular. For that reason I wish they didn’t incinerate a pick in a draft with a lot of intriguing players left on the board.

      I think “pick the single best player available” is usually an unfair standard, though there are specific instances in which the best player is so obvious it’s a screw-up not to pick them even if you wind up with a player who returns value on the slot. The Suns shouldn’t feel okay about picking Ayton even if his value is more or less commensurate with the expected return on the #1 pick. Something like Quickley over Bane is fine though.

      Yeah, the later a pick, the more unfair to criticize teams for not taking a certain guy b/c lots of teams passed on that guy, too. Kudos to Memphis for taking Bane, but he was pick 30.

      Yeah, I guess it is Brunson or Bust for Leon Rose and the Knicks.

    49. Hubert: He was 10 for 33, only made three trips to the line the whole series, and had more turnovers than assists.

      Look, I like Immanuel Quickley. I thought he was great down the stretch last year and he’s probably the Knick I am most excited about this season.

      But I get the sense that a lot people who love him haven’t looked at his statistics.

      Payton Pritchard Age 23 1st playoff series stats: per-36 -> 9.1 points, 6.4 assists, 4.8 rebounds, TS 47.5, negative WS/48.

      Look, I like Payton Pritchard. But I get the sense that a lot of people who love Payton Pritchard based on his playoff exploits haven’t looked at his statistics.

      Look, playoff series are hard for first time players. The whole Knicks team played poorly, and Thibs was soundly outcoached by McMillan. It is what it is.

    50. Hubert: AGAIN…

      You’re trying to twist this into “I’m criticizing Leon for not being perfect” or for taking IQ over Pritchard. I am not. Those are side arguments that have nothing to do with the thesis

      Actually I limited my rebuttal to just the IQ pick, separate and apart from your overall take on Leon, which I disagree with in part but not entirely. For example:
      -I had very little problem with trading out of #19 but I hated that we used that CHA conditional pick on Reddish.
      -I hated picking Obi over Hali on draft day, but have warmed up to Obi. Still think it was the wrong move.
      -I liked Bane over IQ on draft day, but felt that the board’s reaction was way over the top
      -I would have preferred a different coach and a different plan, but I thoroughly enjoyed 2020-21 and give the coach and FO a huge amount of credit for it.
      -I think that passing overall judgment now is premature because the most consequential moves lie ahead and the team is reasonably well-positioned to make them in terms of cap flexibility, good young players and draft assets

    51. The biggest problem with the Rose regime is the fact that he does not seem to value getting young players onto this roster. Ever since our outlier playoff run, he has not put any priority on adding to this roster through the draft.

      That is a stupid plain and simple. Good young players are worth more than non-lottery draft picks yet we keep trading away chances to get young players for exactly that. The fact that our drafting has been pretty good underlines that point even more. There is no reason to punt draft picks. Especially if you are not a great team. Memphis was the 2 seed in the west last year and they traded into the draft and took two players in the first round yet the Knicks, not even good enough to make the play-in, are too full of young players to bother drafting anyone.

      I know people are saying to wait and see what happens, but we did not need to trade #13 to be able to afford to sign Brunson. Even if we could not move Kemba, simply stretching him and moving Reddish would have opened just as much cap space, or moving both Burks and Noel, or moving Rose or Fournier. There were many paths to clearing the cap space we needed and the fact that we chose to dump a lottery pick to do it shows how little we value them.

    52. Yeah Ben R, you said it well.

      The incineration trade was a terrible move at the time and now it’s clear that it was truly an incineration. That was a 1RP that was completely wasted.

      This year’s trade of #13 seems like a similarly pointless move, another incineration really. That’s two 1RPs cast to the wind for very little return.

      Good teams don’t do shit like this. Good teams don’t turn their nose up at young talent. There are always guys worth taking a flyer on in the mid first round.

    53. I think that passing overall judgment now is premature because the most consequential moves lie ahead

      I believe the most consequential moves already took place; and that those moves set us up for a floor that’s too high and a ceiling that’s too low.

      and the team is reasonably well-positioned to make them in terms of cap flexibility, good young players and draft assets

      Leon inherited a $50mm payroll. He is now using draft picks to unload the contracts he handed out last year. And we might have the worst contract in the NBA on our books.

      Our young players are OK but they’re not highly sought after. And all our picks are protected to the hilt to ensure none of them ever land in the top 10.

      I’m not impressed.

      His drafting has been decent but not good enough to offset all the poor decisions he’s made.

    54. Leon Rose hasn’t done spectacular or sexy moves yet but I’m still confident that he values both talent and character in his picks.
      If he could add Defensive Loyalty to the two previous mentioned virtues I’ll be willing to wait patiently for his next moves.

    55. I haven’t commented on the 13th pick issue because it’s still unclear to me whether it was an option to stop there. If it was a three team trade, then I don’t think we could’ve.

      If it was a separate transaction, then we definitely should’ve just kept the 13th pick. Coming away from the draft with, say, Eason at 13 as well as the DET and WAS picks would’ve been a great outcome, and I thiiiiiiiink that’s what would’ve happened?

      In any event, Ben R is correct that the problem with the “plan” as many have articulated it is…we’re not actually doing it. We make tons of moves teams that prioritized acquiring and developing young players wouldn’t make. We incinerated the 19th pick because we needed to roster Wayne Selden. Our end-of-bench guys are, like Arcidiacono and Taj instead of guys who have a non-zero chance of developing into a worthwhile player.

      The truth is our moves taken together basically pair perfectly with the picture painted by Yaron Weitzman: our front office is full of people who aren’t on the same page, and worse yet actually view their personal interests as diametrically opposed. Leon Rose makes final decisions that throw a bone to a particular “camp,” without letting too many bones pile up in any particular “camp.” The results are predictable: we’re way behind the rebuilding teams in terms of asset accumulation, and we’re way behind the contenders in terms of, you know, being good.

      That last part is a literal statement of fact, so I don’t know why this point is so contentious.

    56. But at the end of the day is the plan a team with Brunson as PG, with maybe IQ, RJ, Randle and Mitch as the starting 5, and Grimes, Obi, Cam, Jericho, DRose on the bench? I guess they expect IQ and RJ and the other kids to continue to improve and for Randle to bounce back?

      Yeah, sure fine…

    57. Z-man: Here’s where Pritchard creates distance (for now, at least)

      eFG%: .563 to .491
      TS%: .580 to .549
      3P%: 41.2 to 36.5

      That’s a significant margin.

      % of assisted 3pt fg career: Pritchard .823, IQ .565 (.526 last year).
      Career usage: Pritchard 17.5, IQ 23.6
      FTR+ Pritchard 102, IQ 116
      assist % Pritchard 16.4, IQ 21.2
      Pritchard has been more efficient but he’s playing catch and shoot while IQ creates his own shots (and more for others). IQ is dynamic with the ball in a way Pritchard is not. Given the age difference I’d take IQ over Pritchard all day, every day.

    58. Okay, good, that worked. Anyway, Begley runs down what he’s heard about teams that are interested in trading for Burks or Noel, but the most important passage is this:

      If the Knicks trade Noel and Burks into cap space or trade exceptions, it would open up roughly $16 million in cap space.

      This is noteworthy because teams monitoring New York’s approach in the offseason expect that they will be active in trades/free agency even if they sign Brunson. Per people in touch with members of the organization, the Knicks view Brunson, 26, as a good fit for the timeline of the club’s other younger players and someone who could help propel the team forward.

      If he signs in New York, Brunson will be getting significant money. But members of the team, per people in touch with them, don’t view Brunson as a potential franchise-altering savior. Those members of the organization have said that they see Brunson as an important potential addition to their process, but they aren’t of the belief that he would singularly turn the franchise around.

      He also talks about the idea of the Knicks pairing Brunson and Murray, though he admits he has not heard from any NYK sources about their interest in Murray.

    59. We gotta attach these picks so we can move these MVFAs, that way we can sign some more MVFAs

    60. hubert, my visual of the current state of this dialogue is you in a slightly undersized payton pritchard jersey, tags disarmingly dangling, pleading “guys, guys this has nothing to do with payton pritchard.” and i’m not too humble to take a measure of credit for that.

      there are plenty of reasonable arguments against the bona fides of king leon’s reign. drafting immanuel quickley over payton pritchard is not one of them.

    61. If he signs in New York, Brunson will be getting significant money. But members of the team, per people in touch with them, don’t view Brunson as a potential franchise-altering savior. Those members of the organization have said that they see Brunson as an important potential addition to their process, but they aren’t of the belief that he would singularly turn the franchise around.

      See, I like this. A LOT. It shows they don’t just think all they need to do is get Brunson and Randle will be fixed and they can make the playoffs and call it a day.

    62. Alan: If the Knicks trade Noel and Burks into cap space or trade exceptions, it would open up roughly $16 million in cap space.

      I’m very confused as to where he’s getting this number. They make a combined $19M.

      If we move both and keep Taj, that’s around $30M.

      If we waive Taj, $35M.

      Maybe he’s counting the room exception as cap space after signing Brunson. It’ll be about $10M in space and $5M that must be used separately for the room.

      Maybe he meant Cam?

    63. Hubert: Leon inherited a $50mm payroll. He is now using draft picks to unload the contracts he handed out last year. And we might have the worst contract in the NBA on our books.

      It really is insane. Unless I’m mistaken, everyone was like, “Uh, Fournier? Kemba? How is this the way forward?” And they’re already gone.

      There’s so little upside on this roster and punting away picks is not the way to rectify that. I’m sure a certain someone will talk about signing lots of vets for culture, but you really do need a mix. You cannot talk about the Heat’s Finals run without talking about Adebayo, Herro, and Robinson.

      It’s fucked up.

    64. So. if successful, – we just sign Brunson and run it back till trade deadline? – Wouldn’t it make sense to sign a trade Mitch and Frenchie + picks for Rudy Gobert? – I know he makes a boat load but that guy effects winning. Also, Suns overpaid all the others and are forced to lose Ayton…all star level talent sitting there on a platter.

      Leon’s worst move was not doing a sign a trade with Randle last year when he was all NBA, We’d be stacked with assets now…

    65. On the 13th pick, it’s notable that CHA got very little for it too. Some mediocre to bad 2nds and a 1st significantly lower in the draft protected 1-14 even if Denver inexplicably implodes.

    66. Early Bird:
      On the 13th pick, it’s notable that CHA got very little for it too. Some mediocre to bad 2nds and a 1st significantly lower in the draft protected 1-14 even if Denver inexplicably implodes.

      Of all of the teams involved, their role in this made the least amount of sense. The only thing I can think of is that the consensus really is that the 2023 draft is leaps and bounds better than 2022, such that the 13th pick in 2022 has similar value to the 25th pick in 2023. Seems unlikely!

    67. thenoblefacehumper: Of all of the teams involved, their role in this made the least amount of sense. The only thing I can think of is that the consensus really is that the 2023 draft is leaps and bounds better than 2022, such that the 13th pick in 2022 has similar value to the 25th pick in 2023. Seems unlikely!

      Yeah, it’s weird. And even though it’s CHA, you have to think they tried to move it to every other team.

      The 2023 draft is supposed to be unusually strong in addition to this one being extra weak.

    68. Wait, so Trump tried to commandeer a vehicle and assaulted the head of his secret service detail on January 6? Interesting…
      :-)

    69. I like the throwing of food in the cafeteria bit. Currently at a music camp filled with kids — not a single food fight in the cafeteria since I got here. These kids must be so much more mature…

    70. Ben R:
      The biggest problem with the Rose regime is the fact that he does not seem to value getting young players onto this roster. Ever since our outlier playoff run, he has not put any priority on adding to this roster through the draft.

      This is just objectively false. Regardless of the incinerated pick he drafted 3 players last year 1 in Grimes who got significant playing time and would have remained a STARTER had it not been for injury, a 2nd in McBride who got yanked around and should have played more from mid season on and a 3rd on Sims who got significant minutes in the last 1/3 of the season and developed nicely. Like cmon man. This year they did not want more rookies unless it was top of lottery level. We will see how that plays out.

    71. Despite the dissapointing previous season we’re not far off a bing bong whole season imo.
      Thibs s here, youngsters got better, better FAs seem to be coming
      Stay Positive Babes!
      We’ll be good

    72. RJ and 3 firsts for Murray, including Dallas’s pick next year. Who says no?

    73. Thanks for writing that, CGreene. I was just going to comment that since then he’s drafted a 3&D wizard, the Second Coming of Marcus Smart with actual point guard skills (I’ll keep saying that as nobody can yet prove me wrong, and I just love his name so much), and Baby Huey with muscles who can jump out of the gym.

      Not a bad bit of drafting, for one draft.

      Edit: Okay, two drafts, since, well, there was this one. Sigh.

    74. Raven:
      I like the throwing of food in the cafeteria bit. Currently at a music camp filled with kids — not a single food fight in the cafeteria since I got here. These kids must be so much more mature…

      He’s probably not the first president to throw food and/or dishes. But, it seems he did that on many occasions… I assume the committee will be bringing in further witnesses to bolster today’s claims.

    75. there are plenty of reasonable arguments against the bona fides of king leon’s reign. drafting immanuel quickley over payton pritchard is not one of them.

      Sure. But IQ is the best thing Leon has done here, and it really hasn’t been that impactful. That is the point.

      There are 50 reasons to hate Leon, and that was #50. If you win point #50 but lose the other 49…

    76. And we talk about Obi and IQ like they’re surefire NBA starters you can pen into the lineup for the next 7 years. That’s no fait accompli.

    77. Alan:
      Testing… Will this one go through when others have not?

      We have such a wonderfully dilapidated site held together by string, duct tape, and the Knicks not making dumb moves on draft night.

    78. There are a lotta people on here, I recall THCJ among them, who are revisionist history on the Kemba deal.

      When accounting for season / season success Leon is 1 for 2. If he changes his strategy from aging vets to fill holes to spend on young competent players who can improve like Brunson. That’s a change. Like I said we will see.

      Brunson 2000 minutes at PG. Randle not a pumpkin. Even modest improvement from RJ, IQ, Obi, Grimes and Mitch playing a full season. How many more wins is that over the 37 from last year?? Real question.

      I will start. That’s a 47 win team.

    79. We have 9 players 24 & under on the roster. Plus, we have the rights to 21yo Rokas Jokubaitis. Jean Montero might be there too.

      Brunson is 26. Randle is 28.

      We likely have two 1sts next draft and DETs 2nd.

      The Knicks have plenty of young players.

    80. it’s surprising.. but nice.. to know that there’s some agreement on The Incineration now when that made me public enemy #1 to even bring it up before….

      in time… i’m pretty sure we can look back at rose’s strategy…including his drafts… in the same vein….

    81. Raven: Edit: Okay, two drafts, since, well, there was this one. Sigh.

      Well they did draft this year’s Frank Ntilikina in the mid 2nd where Frank should have been drafted, so there’s that…

      (I actually think Keels is a really nice flyer on an 18yo with good size, pedigree and skills…if he stayed in college there’s a reasonable chance he would have been a first rounder next year)

    82. cgreene: I will start. That’s a 47 win team.

      I doubt it, the East is much improved and will continue to improve. Staying the same is not treading water.

    83. djphan:
      it’s surprising.. but nice.. to know that there’s some agreement on The Incineration now when that made me public enemy #1 to even bring it up before….

      in time… i’m pretty sure we can look back at rose’s strategy…including his drafts… in the same vein….

      There was always a large amount of agreement about that pick. That wasn’t why.

    84. I said the Knicks do not value adding young players I did not say they did not add them. Last year they added 3 young players to the team and this year they look to be adding one. The thing is 3 of those 4 players are 2nd round picks, and at least one isn’t even on a real NBA contract. What they have done is moved all their valuable draft picks for future capital, cap space, or Reddish and mainly taken on young players without guarantees. That does not strike me as a team prioritizing bringing in young talent.

      To answer TNFH as to the trades in this draft, I believe they are separate transactions since I think the OKC trade is official as is the Charlotte trade and the Kemba trade has to wait until July when Detroit has cap space. So I think we could have simply kept the #13 no problem.

    85. Ben R: To answer TNFH as to the trades in this draft, I believe they are separate transactions since I think the OKC trade is official as is the Charlotte trade and the Kemba trade has to wait until July when Detroit has cap space. So I think we could have simply kept the #13 no problem.

      It was reported that Kemba went into the TPE created by the Jerami Grant trade. Don’t know if it’s official.

    86. The “Incineration” has always been a first class melodramatisatiom in my book but I’m also not the biggest fan of operas ..

    87. the East is much improved and will continue to improve.

      ???

      The season just ended. Not a single trade or free agent signing has happened yet. How is the east “much improved” from the end of this season? Are you saying drafted rookies are making all of these teams better in year one?

    88. Jazz look like they’re hiring BOS assistant Will Hardy. So Johnnie Bryant is safely a Knick for now.

      Also Fizdale is going to Utah’s FO… lol

    89. swiftandabundant:
      the East is much improved and will continue to improve.

      ???

      The season just ended. Not a single trade or free agent signing has happened yet. How is the east “much improved” from the end of this season? Are you saying drafted rookies are making all of these teams better in year one?

      I think players from the last 3 drafts will continue to improve, while other teams have consolidated and stabilized, e.g. PHI and BKN. On the lottery front, ORL is still iffy but beyond them there doesn’t seem like there will be an easy W in the East next year.

    90. Z-man: I doubt it, the East is much improved and will continue to improve. Staying the same is not treading water.

      They didn’t stay the same. They added Brunson and got improvements at every other position.

    91. Z-man: (I actually think Keels is a really nice flyer on an 18yo with good size, pedigree and skills…if he stayed in college there’s a reasonable chance he would have been a first rounder next year)

      Would’ve picked Rollins, but agree. Most of the analytical models thought Keels was decent value for the slot, and apparently he was a much better shooter in high school for whatever that’s worth. It’s never a bad idea to roll the dice on someone that young who didn’t embarrass himself in college. I’m somewhat surprised he entered the draft this year actually.

    92. I think players from the last 3 drafts will continue to improve.

      So will ours though. I just hate this let’s predict the most negative outcome for the Knicks while also assuming the rosiest outcomes for other teams mentality.

      We took a step back. The season before was a huge surprise. We got a ton of young players, lots of future picks, we’re about to open up cap space and the team has basically played 500 ball since Rose took over.

      The sky is falling mentality is so played out.

    93. thenoblefacehumper: Would’ve picked Rollins, but agree. Most of the analytical models thought Keels was decent value for the slot, and apparently he was a much better shooter in high school for whatever that’s worth. It’s never a bad idea to roll the dice on someone that young who didn’t embarrass himself in college. I’m somewhat surprised he entered the draft this year actually.

      Either Tatum or Brown had a similar thing where he was atrocious shooting in college but had been good in HS. They thought a couple small adjustments would fix his shot and, spoiler alert, it worked. Keels isn’t gonna be that, but shooting is definitely fixable.

      I do worry because Keels just looks so slow and doesn’t get much lift at the rim.

    94. With Fizdale now a Utah assistant GM, does this mean that 3-on-3 scrimmage performance becomes the most important metric by which the Jazz will judge draft prospects?

    95. Let me throw some more positivity in here:
      Our youngsters may not be the most talented but it’s very possible they’ll be among the most hungry for success
      You re young
      You’re playing for the most Legendary team in all sports! (That’s Dramatisation!)
      Why Not fkn give your 100% to make it?
      You tell me

    96. Alan:
      With Fizdale now a Utah assistant GM, does this mean that 3-on-3 scrimmage performance becomes the most important metric by which the Jazz will judge draft prospects?

      We should’ve held onto Knox for a S&T

    97. If we got three 2nds for Ed frigging Davis, EB, imagine how many we could have gotten in a series of Kevin Knox transactions!

    98. Alan:
      If we got three 2nds for Ed frigging Davis, EB, imagine how many we could have gotten in a series of Kevin Knox transactions!

      *Adam Silver shakes his head at a press conference* He’s about to announce the new Fizdale rule, that you can’t trade away your 2nd rd picks in perpetuity.

    99. @TheSteinLine
      Wrote Friday that the Knicks had amassed “major momentum” in their pursuit of Jalen Brunson after draft night.

      There is a growing resignation in Dallas, sources say, that the Knicks are indeed Brunson’s top choice and his inevitable destination.

      That’s an addendum to Stein’s earlier (subscriber-only) newsletter about the details of NY’s potential offer.

    100. @tim_cato
      i’ll add to the chorus: the Mavericks have had a belief for at least the past couple weeks, multiple sources tell me, that Jalen Brunson would sign with the Knicks. at this point, it’s seen as a certainty.

      Look, I don’t know what other maneuverings will have to happen before he is here. I don’t know how much we will be paying him and how ugly that contract may look in a few years. I am deeply suspicious of what the ceiling is on a team where he, Julius Randle, and RJ Barrett are our three best players. But Jalen Brunson will be the Knicks’ best point guard in so, so, so very long. And for the moment, I will take comfort in that.

    101. I’ve come to terms with Brunson if that’s the direction they choose.

      Brunson, RJ, and Mitch are 3 solid young starters that are years away from their peak (especially RJ). That leaves finding a starting PF and another gurad/wing.

      Obi made a lot of progress last year. If he can take one more step this year and get more consistent from 3 and a little better on D, that’s a 4th young starter with upside. If not, he’s still an excellent backup.

      The same is true of Quick. If he can take one more step this year and learn to penetrate to the rim and finish, he doesn’t have to be a 6th man type off the bench. If not, we have our 6th man.

      Hopefully Randle gets his head on straight so if Obi takes a step forward we can move the former later this year to fill a need better.

      We are loaded with excess picks to make selections and/or upgrade a position if a player becomes available.

      This is obviously not a contender yet, but there’s a lot of upside and ammunition. We have to give these young players a chance to reach their potential.

    102. It’s at least nice to see the Knicks making moves with the intent of signing a free agent and then actually signing that free agent. Baby steps!

    103. You were never public enemy #1, djphan. That’s usually me (except when E said “the 70’s were a great time to be gay in America because the Village People had a hit.”)

      You were missed by many when you were gone. I think RJ Barrett took it the hardest because he sucked.

      And Z-Man took a lot of the feedback he received quite seriously and has become much easier to talk to. He’s still wrong about everything, but he’s a lot nicer about it.

      Oh! And do you remember when California used the Texas abortion laws to implement new measures of gun control? That was me. I came up with that.

    104. Man, with Brunson on the team, I’d really like to see Obi and Mitch play together more. Their very limited minutes together were excellent, and that was without a decent point guard like Brunson. Could they please get rid of Randle? Please?

    105. ” I am deeply suspicious of what the ceiling is on a team where he, Julius Randle, and RJ Barrett are our three best players. ”

      I think Randle will either return to peak form (least likely), improve off last year (most likely), or melt down again (possible). As long as he’s not as bad as last year and behaves himself, he’ll be traded later this year unless Obi makes no progress and we lose the momentum from late last year.

      I think Brunson can be the starting PG on a contender. He carried Dallas at times when Doncic was out and did it again in the playoffs when defenses did everything they could to stop him. That was really impressive. He may not be an all star or #1 option, but he can play.

      RJ is a key. Unless he get injured he’s going to get a lot better over time. For this year he HAS TO take a step forward in his finishing at the rim, FT%, and decision making when driving into the paint and the double comes. If he inches forward in all those areas, his efficiency will be in the tolerable range – with years of improvement to go to get up to where he really needs to be to be an all star.

      Don’t sleep on Mitch. He may be a low volume high efficient scorer that still screws up on defense at times, but he’s had a very interrupted career development wise. He’s going to get better.

    106. You also have to give it up to Rose for being willing to adjust when his first approach (which would have not involved spending free agent money in this offseason) failed. A lot of other Knicks executives have not been able to pivot. So that’s a plus for him!

      But okay, mostly, I’m just pumped that signing Brunson means that there is little chance they don’t re-sign Mitch. I’m walking on cloud nine about the Mitch-osity of this all. :)

    107. Brian Cronin: there is little chance they don’t re-sign Mitch. I’m walking on cloud nine about the Mitch-osity of this all. :)

      Underrated part of sending Duren to DET is it cleared out what was probably the only competition for Mitch.

    108. I remember when KD to the Knicks was a done deal, are we sure Brunson isn’t going to Brooklyn? :D

    109. I still think Durant was coming here pre-injury. But yes, it was never this clear. If Brunson doesn’t sign here at this point, it will be one of the biggest shocks I’ve seen involving the Knicks in….well, in all the time that I can remember.

    110. Underrated part of sending Duren to DET is it cleared out what was probably the only competition for Mitch.

      Yep, that was sweet. It was also fun seeing Twitter see the Knicks trade for Duren, and then Mitch started trending on Twitter because everyone tweeting about how that meant he was gone…and then the news that Duren was being flipped was, like, a minute or two after that, which meant pretty much the opposite vis a vis Mitch returning. Too funny.

    111. >> it’s surprising.. but nice.. to know that there’s some agreement on The Incineration now when that made me public enemy #1 to even bring it up before….<<

      I respect your opinion a lot, but don't include me in that group.

      I still think the "incinerated pick" discussion was way overblown and a lot of time time spent discussing a non event. For a team that has made catastrophic errors year after year, that was like Son of Sam getting a parking ticket and getting upset that he doesn't follow traffic laws.

    112. Let’s hope so. I’m not going to elaborate on Brunson to avoid bad luck. When he’s here, we’ll have time for that. What i can say is if he signs here he’ll be the best PG we had since Marbury, i think, and as he doesn’t seem like the vaseline eating type, he’ll probably fare way better than Marbury.

    113. I also like the Brunson news because it also sort of makes all of our discussions about them signing Brunson actually feel like it wasn’t quite as pointless as so much of our other discussions. :)

    114. Also, it just made so much sense to re-sign Mitch, that it was just like mind-boggling that it looked like, for a time, that their take was, “Yeah, nah.” So seeing that turn around is also quite heartening. Even if it partially has to do with them maxing out RJ and thus not having free agent money next year (as an aside, it was always pretty fucking obvious that 2022 was the year to target for this very reason, that Mitch’s cap hold was so small and that RJ was going to be extended, so this would be the best time to spend their money, so I never understood, and I noted this at the time, why Rose seemed to be targeting 2023 instead).

    115. Brian Cronin:
      It’s at least nice to see the Knicks making moves with the intent of signing a free agent and then actually signing that free agent. Baby steps!

      then only had to hire the guy’s father (and give him who knows what else)…to get’er done…what a class organ-eye-zay-shun….

    116. Meanwhile, Fred Katz suggested that this figure will likely be relevant to any Mitch contract discussions:

      @wojespn
      Los Angeles Clippers center Ivica Zubac has agreed on a three-year, $33 million extension, his agents Jeff Schwartz and Mike Lindeman of @excelbasketball tell ESPN. The Clippers declined his $7.5M team option for 2022-2023, clearing the way for Zubac’s new deal.

    117. Brian Cronin:
      I also like the Brunson news because it also sort of makes all of our discussions about them signing Brunson actually feel like it wasn’t quite as pointless as so much of our other discussions. :)

      Yeah, exactly. I was one of the Brunson believers and even i wasn’t believing anymore in the last few weeks. Well, that feeling got a big help from a false rumor some journalist threw out there that Brunson had already confirmed to his Dallas teammates that he was coming back.

    118. Brian, this morning, I asked a Clippers season ticket holder I’m friends with if he’d want the team to use its TPE on Noel, and he said, “Yes! We need a back up rim protector”

      Hartenstein is likely signing elsewhere, it seems. So a healthy-ish Noel would have value to them in an all-in kind of season.

    119. Brian Cronin:
      Does that extension affect their willingness to take Noel into their TPE?

      I think that was expected. It’s hartenstein they need to replace. But I worry the C market will collapse and they’ll get him back

      Hmmm…. actually sounds like Wall will take their MLE at least partially. So Hartenstein will be gone. Hard to imagine too many better backup 5s will be available. I’ll be interested to see what Lue can do with Noel.

      Maybe. Just maybe we can squeeze a 2nd or two out of this.

    120. Brian Cronin: Does that extension affect their willingness to take Noel into their TPE?

      No, Noel to the Clippers is to replace Hartenstein and be their backup C. They like Hartenstein but their problem is that they only have the taxpayer’s MLE (6.4M), and Hartenstein will get more money, maybe even the full MLE (10.3M). And this is why they can’t retain Hartenstein and are trying to replace him using the TPE.

    121. Because I can never stop myself from putting the cart before the horse, let’s pretend that Brunson is coming, Mitch is staying, and Burks and Noel are both going for no return in terms of a present-day NBA contract. And maybe Taj gets waived to make the cap math work, but then comes back on a minimum. That would give us a rotation of…

      C: Mitch, Sims, Taj
      PF: Randle, Obi
      SF: RJ, Reddish
      SG: Fournier, Grimes, Keels
      PG: Brunson, IQ, Deuce

      Did I miss anybody? That leaves room for 2-4 more players, depending on whether Sims’ contract gets converted (which it would have to if he’s our main backup center) and/or whether Keels is signed to a 2-way deal. That is… not a great roster, and one that desperately needs our starting power forward to either get his head out of his ass or take a seat on the bench. But at least it has a for-real point guard playing point guard!

    122. And the kids could improve! And/or the team could sign more free agents like Begley suggested we might! And/or we should just all wait for Andor, the Rogue One prequel show coming to Disney+ later this year! And/or…

    123. Alan: C: Mitch, Sims, Taj
      PF: Randle, Obi
      SF: RJ, Reddish
      SG: Fournier, Grimes, Keels
      PG: Brunson, IQ, Deuce

      I think you’re missing Rose.

      While it doesn’t impress on paper, the defense should be good again and that makes up for a lot. Paper teams tend to get judged for their offense.

      I do worry that losing Burks will set the defense back.

    124. I like that Brunson now makes Rose a backup. He’s so much better as a backup. And they could probably close out games together.

    125. If we move Burks & Noel, that gives us $10M in cap space to find a shiny new toy plus $5M for the room exception.

      Also, has Fournier ever really played with a plus PG? I don’t recall ORL or DEN having anyone special. Half a season with Kemba on BOS when their minutes probably didn’t overlap much?

    126. An interesting aspect about the Brunson signing is that end of the game, wouldn’t Brunson be the iso-guy? Sort of makes Randle seem even more superfluous (in a good way, though, as Brunson is better at scoring efficiently than Randle).

    127. “Man, with Brunson on the team, I’d really like to see Obi and Mitch play together more. Their very limited minutes together were excellent, and that was without a decent point guard like Brunson. Could they please get rid of Randle? Please?”

      I just don’t see where he could reasonably go that would give us cap space at this point. Mavs would be tricky but possible. Maybe he could go to Washington or Chicago for expirings?

    128. Brunson would probably be the most fun PG we’ve had since Mark Jackson. I think he would be a smash hit at MSG. I’ll believe it when I see it, though. Cuban might just refuse to lose and throw 3 years/$35M AAV at him just out of spite.

    129. I just don’t see where he could reasonably go that would give us cap space at this point. Mavs would be tricky but possible. Maybe he could go to Washington or Chicago for expirings?

      I’d be fine with doing a KP-like deal, where they dump him for other bad contracts, just at other positions.

    130. One of the best things about the Brunson signing is that it makes the Mavericks look like fucking idiots for not taking Brunson up on his offer to take the mini-max-extension earlier this year. These fucking morons chose “keeping open the possibility of maybe trading Brunson” over locking him down for four years at $13.5 million per! It is great to see another team shit their pants in their negotiations worse than the Knicks. Especially when doing so sends that player to the Knicks.

    131. Z-man:
      Brunson would probably be the most fun PG we’ve had since Mark Jackson. I think he would be a smash hit at MSG. I’ll believe it when I see it, though. Cuban might just refuse to lose and throw 3 years/$35M AAV at him just out of spite.

      There will be a lot of pressure on Brunson as he’ll immediately be the best player on the team (not saying much)

      But he looks like a kid who can handle it, I think he’ll thrive in the bright lights of MSG.

    132. Brian, all we need now is for Doncic to have an injury next year. Not a bad one that hurts his career. But one that sidelined him for like half a season and Dallas misses the playoffs.

    133. We may well be on the verge of the first free agent we’ve had 200+ comment arguments about who actually takes our money. As I’ve said for perhaps over a year now I’m all for it—there is virtually no such thing as overpaying for good, young players at premium positions. This ‘90s born Knicks fan is excited to find out what consistent competent point guard play looks like.

      I still can’t get excited about this team until Julius Randle is no longer on it, so let’s make that our next order of business yeah?

    134. Z-man: Cuban might just refuse to lose and throw 3 years/$35M AAV at him just out of spite.

      You mean the max, right? That’s a possibility we should be ready for, that the Knicks offer to Brunson is the max. If it is, it’ll be 30.5M (2022-23), 32.0M (2023-24), 33.6M (2024-25) and 35.1M (2025-26). The Mavs can offer 8% annual raises, instead of 5%, and a 5th year at 40.3M !? :O I doubt they do this.

    135. thenoblefacehumper:

      I still can’t get excited about this team until Julius Randle is no longer on it, so let’s make that our next order of business yeah?

      yep…as long as he is on the roster…no bueno…

    136. Brian, those fucking morons were even more stupid in not opting out of Brunson’s contract last offseason, he’d have been a RFA and they’d probably had retain him for less than 20M AAV.

    137. Brian, those fucking morons were even more stupid in not opting out of Brunson’s contract last offseason, he’d have been a RFA and they’d probably had retain him for less than 20M AAV.

      no. when brunson was drafted he negotiated a deal without a team option in yr4, so they could not have done this. can blame donnie nelson for the contract but they could not have rfa’d him.

      Brian, all we need now is for Doncic to have an injury next year. Not a bad one that hurts his career. But one that sidelined him for like half a season and Dallas misses the playoffs.

      pick is top 10 protected so if that happens it is likely to roll

    138. Some Brunson highlights to help you have nice dreams tonight. :-)

      https://youtu.be/8x9B45cCKiY

      This from Eye4Impact_NBA on Twitter who I plugged the other day. This guy is very good even though he has very few followers “so far”.

    139. My opinion of the Mavs and Cuban has been a wild roller coaster ride for years.

      I thought he was foolish for breaking up the championship team so soon, foolish for a lot of crazy deals he did over the years, smart for taking a chance on KP for what would amount to 2 trash picks, insane for signing Hardaway Jr for basically the same contract we dumped on him, brilliant for switching the focus from having the best offense in history that plays no defense to focusing on accumulating defensive role players, and foolish for giving up on KP this year when all he got back was 2 role players with similarly suspect contracts and it wasn’t enough to win. What he really needed was cap flexibility. If he was convinced the fit was wrong, he should have waited one more year. But he also wildly underestimated how good Brunson was for quite awhile and now it appears we may steal him. I guess the net of all that is that he’s pretty foolish.

    140. Early Bird: I’m very confused as to where he’s getting this number. They make a combined $19M.

      If we move both and keep Taj, that’s around $30M.

      If we waive Taj, $35M.

      Maybe he’s counting the room exception as cap space after signing Brunson. It’ll be about $10M in space and $5M that must be used separately for the room.

      Maybe he meant Cam?

      Are you sure the $16 million isn’t the additional cap space obtained instead of the total cap space they will have? I know the salaries add up to $19, but maybe the assumption is we add regular player like Sims and that pushes the cap down a little.

    141. brunson’s not the type of pg to make those around him better since he looks for his own shot more than anything… but he is going to be good for us mainly because it’s hopefully going to mean less usage for both RJ and randle… that will instantly make both better esp with RJ since his issue last year was doing way too much… and hopefully there’s less randle step back 20 ft’ers and more getting him while moving towards the basket…

      but he’s also going to be good since he’s also a thibs type of pg.. someone who penetrates and gets to the rim and will finally give another guy that gives what derrick rose gave… if it doesn’t work now then it’s not going to work ever…. same goes for leon because if there wasn’t enough to judge him before we should absolutely have enough by now three offseasons in….

      that’s not going into the value of it all since it’s going to be tough for brunson to outperform 25mm aav but that’s not really the purpose… just getting anything resembling market value would be a win if it helps the others realize their promise…. that was the theory with the suns getting cp3 and while brunson’s not that.. we can only work with what we got and he’s not a bad one given the options… the value of the contract does become a problem when you look at the upside of this squad because there’s not much maneuverability after this along with the RJ and Mitch’s extension…

      but that’s a separate discussion for when the dust settles… they needed to shoot their shot before the RJ extension and this is it so we have to see how far that takes us…

    142. Brian Cronin:
      One of the best things about the Brunson signing is that it makes the Mavericks look like fucking idiots for not taking Brunson up on his offer to take the mini-max-extension earlier this year. These fucking morons chose “keeping open the possibility of maybe trading Brunson” over locking him down for four years at $13.5 million per! It is great to see another team shit their pants in their negotiations worse than the Knicks. Especially when doing so sends that player to the Knicks.

      The Mavs are a weird team in that they do a lot of smart stuff but they also do a lot of stupid stuff.

    143. The league docked Chicago and New Orleans picks last year for tampering and the media already seems to know the terms of Jalen to the Knicks. This could be a thing.

    144. Are you sure the $16 million isn’t the additional cap space obtained instead of the total cap space they will have? I know the salaries add up to $19, but maybe the assumption is we add regular player like Sims and that pushes the cap down a little.

      It might be minimum roster holds. Still don’t think that’s exactly right though.

    145. The league docked Chicago and New Orleans picks last year for tampering and the media already seems to know the terms of Jalen to the Knicks. This could be a thing.

      So far it’s only been for teams that had complex S&T announced by the media within a minute of FA starting. It’s a pretty low bar to clear if you want to avoid tampering charges.

      We don’t use draft picks anyways, so jokes on them.

    146. There it is. Woj says we’re trading Burks and Noel to the Pistons. No details yet but wouldn’t be surprised if it’s part of the Kemba trade.

      We should have more cap space than is needed to sign Brunson now, wonder if they have any ideas for the remainder.

      Grimes Grimes! Sims Sims!

    147. Adrian Wojnarowski
      @wojespn
      ·
      2m
      The Knicks are trading center Nerlens Noel and guard Alec Burks to the Pistons, sources tell ESPN. The Knicks will unload $19M more in salary, clearing the way for cap space to try and sign free agent guard Jalen Brunson.

    148. @wojespn
      The Knicks are including two future second-round picks and cash in the deal to incentivize the Pistons, sources tell ESPN.

    149. I think we need to get a player back because they’re over the cap and the Grant exception can only fit two of Kemba, Noel, Burks.

    150. It’s definitely going to be annoying when Detroit flips them at the deadline, but it’s not that bad.

    151. It’s two seconds, one of which is Detroit’s own 2023 pick which is kind of a bummer.

    152. The 2024 2nd is top 55 protected for MIA. Miami is good enough it could transfer… but it wouldn’t be a big deal.

      Who else would we want this offseason?

    153. Trading the seconds is kinda sad but I think it’s worth it at the end, we needed to get rid of players anyway to open up minutes for the young guys and Burks and Noel don’t fit what wete trying to do with Brunson so well. We can discuss that we shouldn’t have signed those guys in the first place and ended up giving picks to get rid of them, but at this point I’m just glad we seem to be getting a good player on a reasonable contract that actually really fits our needs.

    154. If we give Jalen 30 million a year that’s really an incredible job by his agent, Sam Rose

    155. If we give Jalen 30 million a year that’s really an incredible job by his agent, Sam Rose

      Knicks really pushing the limits of what’s possible with nepotism in this move.

    156. it’s really only one 2nd since miami’s is top 55 protected. but the potential bad news is clearing up enough pace to give the full 25pct max, unless there’s something else in tow.

    157. So in sum, dumping Noel, Kemba, & Burks:

      Better of 2023 MIA/DAL
      2023 NYK
      2023 UTA
      2023 DET
      2024 NYK
      2024 MIA (top 55 protected)

      A lot of these figure to be bad 2nds. And if you think about it as Brunson for those picks, you easily say yes.

      But I like Brunson at $25M a lot more than $30M. Maybe it’s insurance in case DAL offers the max.

    158. If Knicks waive Taj they’ll have around 35m in cap space to use before then re-signing Mitch. Interesting to see what else they have in store because they have more than enough cap space now to sign Brunson. Should be an interesting next few days.

    159. I guess the NYK could also give Brunson the max and not waive Taj, for some reason.

    160. Went from “we can’t make a pick at 19 because we have too many good players” to “is Trevor Keels the backup SG” real quick huh

    161. What’s the most money they can actually offer Brunson? What’s the max contract for Brunson as a FA?

    162. Well hot damn. I’m not going to sweat second rounders when we picked up so many extra ones the last few drafts anyways. This allows us to get Brunson and another free agent while freeing up PT for our youngsters especially grimes. But I wonder if this is it and we’re sticking with Fournier and Randle for now or if another move is in the works. Could either of them be part of a Dallas sign and trade for Brunson?

    163. PG: Brunson/Rose/IQ
      SG: Fournier/IQ/Keels
      SF: RJ/Grimes/Cam
      PF: Randle/Obi
      C: Mitch/Sims/Taj

    164. What’s the most money they can actually offer Brunson? What’s the max contract for Brunson as a FA?

      It’s about $30.25M for yr 1

    165. thenoblefacehumper:
      Went from “we can’t make a pick at 19 because we have too many good players” to “is Trevor Keels the backup SG” real quick huh

      I mean Grimes and Cam are still on the roster not to mention IQ played a ton of minutes as the backup SG playing next to Rose.

    166. ess-dog:
      Ok, who’s next: Julius or Cam?

      please julius….please julius…please julius

      and I like Keels..he seemed to be the one guy on Duke that had the cojones in the big spots…how that translates to the nba is another story…

    167. Alec Burks is a nice player and seemingly a quality dude but I’m glad he is not going to be playing 2300 minutes for the Knicks again

    168. Yeah, the best part of this is taking away even the slightest chance that Alec Burks will ever play point guard for this team again. Burks was a good player for us, but Thibs needs his security blankets taken away from him.

    169. I mean Grimes and Cam are still on the roster not to mention IQ played a ton of minutes as the backup SG playing next to Rose.

      Also Deuce.

    170. In theory, you could structure a deal as follows to generate a trade exception & full MLE:

      1. Hold off on Kemba & Burks/Noel trades
      2. After new season start, trade Noel/Burks to DET, Cam or Taj to DAL, and NYK get Brunson
      3. Re-sign Mitch
      3. NYK send Kemba to DET & receive $9M trade exception while preserving full MLE

    171. KevinR:
      Adrian Wojnarowski
      @wojespn
      ·
      2m
      The Knicks are trading center Nerlens Noel and guard Alec Burks to the Pistons, sources tell ESPN. The Knicks will unload $19M more in salary, clearing the way for cap space to try and sign free agent guard Jalen Brunson.

      There’s the $19m instead of $16m figure again. Maybe Burks and/or Noel’s salary is scheduled to be more next season than it is currently.

    172. So now with this trade we absolutely did not need to trade away the #13 pick. Fantastic.

    173. Early Bird:
      PG: Brunson/Rose/IQ
      SG: Fournier/IQ/Keels
      SF: RJ/Grimes/Cam
      PF: Randle/Obi
      C: Mitch/Sims/Taj

      Quickley should start over Fournier

    174. PG: Brunson/Rose/IQ
      SG: Fournier/IQ/Keels
      SF: RJ/Grimes/Cam
      PF: Randle/Obi
      C: Mitch/Sims/Taj

      —————

      I have to admit, I’m still not enthralled by this starting lineup.

    175. Knick fan not in NJ: There’s the $19m instead $16m figure again.Maybe Burks and/or Noel’s salary is scheduled to be more next season than it is currently.

      Their combined salary last year was $18.3 Mill

    176. So now with this trade we absolutely did not need to trade away the #13 pick. Fantastic.

      Depends on if we need the max for Brunson. If not, will allow Knicks to sign another player for ~$8.5M.

    177. The process is messy but I like that we’re doing something creative. Brunson may be overpaid when the dust clears but he’s my kind of player.

    178. If we sign Brunson and it turns out we could have gotten him by simply stretching Kemba and keeping the pick or possibly not even stretching him at all it will be quite upsetting. There is nothing we can do with $8 million dollars in cap space that is better than a lottery pick.

    179. Yeah, Brunson may be a bit overpaid but that’s very common when you hire someone as a free agent and don’t have to trade to get him. And we did use up a lot of second round picks, but we also made space for the kids to play. Looking at the proposed lineups above, maybe it’s not enough space, but it’s definitely better than it was.

    180. Chris Haynes says we’re going to offer something like 4/110 . . .which is a pretty big number

    181. “It’s two seconds, one of which is Detroit’s own 2023 pick which is kind of a bummer.”

      That second was acquired during the original Incineration… or the 2020 Incineration…. when we literally lit the #33 pick on fire for that Detroit 2023 second… and then we trade it to dump one of our 2021 offseason mistakes…

    182. Guys. I’m a writer. Words have meaning. We did not literally light the 33rd pick on fire, or the 19th, or the 11th, or the 13th. We may not have even metaphorically lit all of them on fire. Just several.

    183. djphan:
      “It’s two seconds, one of which is Detroit’s own 2023 pick which is kind of a bummer.”

      That second was acquired during the original Incineration… or the 2020 Incineration…. when we literally lit the #33 pick on fire for that Detroit 2023 second… and then we trade it to dump one of our 2021 offseason mistakes…

      Yeah, the whole process behind all those moves in retrospect remains very, very shaky. We’ll be a better team with Brunson replacing Burks and Kemba in the PG position, but the cap is now an issue with Barrett’s extension looming and I’m really not that excited about a capped out team with Brunson, Randle and RJ as the top 3 guys. At least we’ll be a lot more watchable so that makes me happy, but there’s still a lot of work to be done.

    184. I would trade Randle for one more first, even if it’s projected to be lower than 20. Listen, the clock is ticking on Obi. He’s practically as old as Brunson already; he needs to start.

      A Brunson/Grimes/RJ/Obi/Mitch lineup has pretty good balance in theory. It just needs more time together. Plus, a 2nd unit led by Rose/Quickley should be terrific.

      Obviously adding a 3/4 to that mix like Tari Eason would’ve been ideal, but we still have a lot of maneuverability. I think it’s safe to be a little optimistic at this point.

    185. the next thing you’re going to tell me is that people use commas and single periods…. some writer you are Alan…

    186. Yeah, the whole process behind all those moves in retrospect remains very, very shaky. We’ll be a better team with Brunson replacing Burks and Kemba in the PG position, but the cap is now an issue with Barrett’s extension looming and I’m really not that excited about a capped out team with Brunson, Randle and RJ as the top 3 guys.

      Had we just made all our picks and not signed all the guys we currently want to get rid of, we’d have about $80mm in cap space right now, a few more good young prospects, and more picks.

      That strikes me as better than what we have now. So yeah, the process mattered.

    187. Hubert: Had we just made all our picks and not signed all the guys we currently want to get rid of, we’d have about $80mm in cap space right now, a few more good young prospects, and more picks.

      That strikes me as better than what we have now. So yeah, the process mattered.

      It is annoying definitely and to me, it shows that the front office is either not capable, or just doesn’t want to think long term. Brunson is coming with huge pressure on his shoulders to perform, because if he regresses and doesn’t have much of an impact, all this frantic asset manipulation will have been a disaster. There’s a scenario where Brunson is a bust, Barrett never progresses and Randle never recovers and we’re stuck with a terrible roster, capped out and with very little upside. I’m not saying this will happen because I believe in Brunson as a player, but it’s a real, nasty possibility.

    188. It can’t just end with the pursuit of Brunson. Brunson/Randle/RJ is not the core of an exciting team. That team has a HARD ceiling and not a high one.

    189. Good job Knicks, wow. This is essentially 11, Burks and Noel for Jalen Brunson. Sure.

      Can someone articulate how we could have done it and kept the pick?

    190. danvt:
      Good job Knicks, wow. This is essentially11, Burks and Noel for Jalen Brunson. Sure.

      Can someone articulate how we could have done it and kept the pick?

      Knicks got 3 picks for 11.

    191. ha, al and dj phan, you guys got me laughing…

      hope you’ve healed up well al…

      hope the dad stuff is going well for you dj phan…

    192. So 11, Noel, Burks and Walker and some not so worthy second round picks for Brunson and three future firsts? I agree, wow, but I want to see the deal close first before I cackle.

    193. 1. Giving up 2nds is as a close to a non event as is possible. We should be screaming for joy that it didn’t cost much given that Nerlens was hurt all last year.

      2. Something else is coming.

      3. Brunson would not be coming here if he didn’t have faith in the plan and direction of management. It has already been reported the plan was going to be a key issue in his decision. In other words, he wouldn’t have come to a perennial tanker.

    194. “It can’t just end with the pursuit of Brunson. Brunson/Randle/RJ is not the core of an exciting team. That team has a HARD ceiling and not a high one.”

      Something else is coming, but I doubt it’s a co-main event type deal yet.

      I suspect Plan A was getting Ivey and Brunson. I’m not sure how they would have done it, but we sure would have less pick ammo left if we did. The goal now is still to add a Donovan Mitchell or some other star to replace Fournier or Randle. That’s what all the 1st rounders are for. They didn’t want to add another young role player out of this draft. They wanted a PG and a star. One down and one to go. Maybe at the trade deadline or maybe next year. We are positioned well. We have a young team of hard workers, a high IQ PG, some excellent role players off the bench, a lot of upside, and a lot of ammo. There’s a long way to go to develop all these young players and add the final piece, but everyone should be sleeping well.

      PS: Don’t forget Mitch

    195. I should add one final thing that’s actually quite critical.

      The Knicks with Brunson added are more likely to attract a star player than the Knicks without him.

    Comments are closed.