Knicks Morning News (2022.06.23)

123 thoughts to “Knicks Morning News (2022.06.23)”

1. Agreed on Murray. Cost is too rich, he’s not really a fit with our very weird roster, etc.

   Very good, if sobering, Macri newsletter today. When even the most Pollyanna fan of this team is going into draft day deeply questioning the strategy and wisdom of our front office, you know we’re in a not-great place. That Rose is better the last several POBOs is cold comfort if he doesn’t have a realistic path to getting us off the hamster wheel of mediocrity other than “just wait for a superstar to want out and hope you can beat Miami’s package.”

2. Mediocrity seems to be a an overstatement. The reality is for the most part we haven’t even really been mediocre.

   There better be a clear plan shown in the moves made this off season starting tonight.

   1) they have access to a star level player that we are unaware of and sell the farm
   2) they sell part of the farm to trade up for Ivey and go with a true youth play
   3) the young core are the future and they shed some vets and are clearly moving ahead with RJ, Obi, IQ, Grimes, Mitch as their key pieces.

3. I have hope with these Mitch rumors!

4. cgreene, I just mean that over the last few years we’ve been mediocre. One great season, several bad but non-awful ones. On average, NBA no man’s land.

5. One item among many in Begley’s draft day notes column:

   If the Knicks love Jaden Ivey enough, they can probably make it happen. But there’s another player who has been on their radar to keep an eye on in trade-up scenarios: Shaedon Sharpe.

   Sharpe has had fans in high places within the organization. He is projected to go before the Knicks pick at 11, so the club would probably have to move up to select Sharpe, a 6-foot-6 guard.

   Sharpe’s talent is undeniable. However, he sat out of the college season at Kentucky, so the traditional tools for evaluation aren’t available to teams interested in Sharpe.

   The Knicks, as you may have heard, have strong relationships with the Kentucky program (team president Leon Rose and executive vice president William Wesley are close with Wildcats head coach John Calipari). So you’d think that they can gain insight into Sharpe through those connections.

6. Moving up for Sharpe seems so Knicksy.

7. I don’t like the idea of trading up to draft a complete unknown like Sharpe. If he falls to 11, it’d make some sense given the dearth of talent in this year’s draft. But that’s a huge gamble on a HS rep.

8. Alan:
   cgreene, I just mean that over the last few years we’ve been mediocre. One great season, several bad but non-awful ones. On average, NBA no man’s land.

   I know I know. I’m just frustrated. Haha.

9. Yes, it would be Knicksy. At the same time, this administration has been so risk averse, which has resulted in us having a lot of low-ceilinged talent. Sharpe could just be useless, but he could also turn into our best prospect within a year or two. And one of the advantages of having so many young guys is that if Sharpe is a bust, it’s not crippling in a way it was when our best young talent was a guy who couldn’t do anything on offense, a guy who looked like a giraffe on roller skates, and a guy who fouled on every other play and couldn’t/didn’t shoot if he was more than 2 feet from the basket.

   At some point, Rose has to be willing to gamble. Sharpe would be a pretty big gamble, but, again, we’re going nowhere exciting on our current path.

10. cgreene: I know I know. I’m just frustrated. Haha.

    It could be worse. We could be a team like the Kings, who actually does pick high in the draft a lot, picks up high-ceilinged prospects on occasion, and still isn’t any good. At least we have memories of the 20-21 season.

11. Haha, Alan. Don’t forget the Kings draft for need (Bagley) instead of BPA (Luka). It can happen again today (Murray instead of Ivey). #lolKings

12. I’m just going to assume Rose already has deals in place for Beal and Brunson (with Randle leaving) until it doesn’t happen.

13. Would anyone really be unhappy if we just made our pick at 11 and rolled with what we have?

14. d-mar: Would anyone really be unhappy if we just made our pick at 11 and rolled with what we have?

    Not me, i’m cool with it. But please be it with cgreene’s plan #3, shedding the vets and going with the youth. This hybrid approach leads to nowhere, they must be seeing it too.

15. Would anyone really be unhappy if we just made our pick at 11 and rolled with what we have?

    What does “roll with what we have” mean, though? Resigning Mitch? If all they do is make the #11 pick and let Mitch leave, then yes, I would really be unhappy. If Mitch leaving is tied into something else, then possibly fair enough, but if it is just make the pick and let Mitch leave? No sir.

16. I normally don’t recommend people to follow on Twitter, but @Eye4Impact_NBA is a totally unknown poster that may be worth a follow. He may not be ideal for a more stats oriented audience, but so I far I’m enjoying his tweets. Since he’s totally unknown, I’m throwing it out there. I’m not even sure how I found him because he’s not followed by anyone I know or follow.

17. Brian Cronin:

    “ What does “roll with what we have” mean, though? Resigning Mitch? If all they do is make the #11 pick and let Mitch leave, then yes, I would really be unhappy. If Mitch leaving is tied into something else, then possibly fair enough, but if it is just make the pick and let Mitch leave? No sir.”

    Yeah I hear you Brian I wouldn’t be happy with that scenario either. I guess my point is showing patience with the young players we have instead of chasing the next big thing, which never seems to work out for this franchise.

18. I don’t pay too much attention to baseball in general, but this Shohei Ohtani sequence is too fun to not pay attention. What an insane player.

19. I’d be fine with dumping all vets and not being very good in 2023, so we can have a high pick in a great draft.

20. If picking at 11 and rolling with what we have means shedding most of Burks, Noel, Fournier, Rose, Kemba and maybeee Julius and adding a solid/youngish PG from somewhere. Then sure. If it means rolling it back with the same group plus 11. Then no frickin way.

21. I would not be unhappy if we just pick at 11 and roll with what we have (that includes resigning Mitch).

    I mean, I wouldn’t be ecstatic or anything but after last off season thinking we were going to come into the new season and be really good only to be disappointed, having a under the radar off season could actually be good.

    Randle could bounce back. Noel and Rose could get healthy. Fournier has a year under his belt in Thibs’ system. our young players could get better. And Rose, Noel and Burks all are in the final year of their guaranteed deals plus next off season we have 2 more first round picks and a ton of second rounders, so waiting might be frustrating but wouldn’t be the dumbest thing in the world.

22. My hot take of the day: The Nets would be become a better team by trading Kyrie for draft capital/young players/cap space.

23. d-mar:
    Would anyone really be unhappy if we just made our pick at 11 and rolled with what we have?

    I’m totally fine with that. Honestly, I’d prefer that to trading up for Ivey (or the new rumors about Sharpe).

24. Detroit is getting two 2nd rd picks for Grant, in addition to the Bucks 1st & this year’s 2nd rd pick swap.

    That’s a much more reasonable deal than initially reported.

25. ess-dog: I’d be fine with dumping all vets and not being very good in 2023, so we can have a high pick in a great draft.

    I’m pretty sure most of us have been asking for that for the last 20 years. It would be especially smart for next year since the draft is supposed to be loaded.

26. ess-dog:
    Moving up for Sharpe seems so Knicksy.

    The Knicks did draft Robinson, who never played in College, and it worked out. If they think Sharpe is that good, they might be right

27. That Macri newsletter is one of his best in a long time. Rose decided early on in his tenure that he was above building through the draft, presumably because he thought he could avoid all that boring stuff on the strength of his Connections™. This was defended in many circles on the grounds that there are many ways to skin a cat, nothing is guaranteed in a true rebuild, etc.

    Welp, we’re finding out that eventually you do need extremely good basketball players if you want to do anything interesting in the NBA. If you basically cutoff one of the three potential avenues to getting those guys, it doesn’t somehow increase the probability you’ll get one of them via the remaining ways. In fact, as evidenced by the Thunder being able to crush us in any trade up scenario, it almost certainly makes it *harder* to get a superstar via trade.

    Knicks fans seem to think we can force the Kings or whoever else to accept our mediocre trade packages by appealing to some vague sense of fairness that does not actually exist. Teams will choose quality over quantity every day of the week.

    So far the fruits of the “hybrid” model is we have a bunch of veterans no one wants to trade for, the 11th pick in an unspectacular draft, and young players that are perfectly nice pieces…if you already have 2-3 players better than them.

    Maybe I’m totally wrong! But Rose is running out of chances to prove it.

28. Gotta be honest – is Jerami Grant good?
    His numbers look suspiciously Randle-like — out of character good 2020-2021, came back to earth 21-22. He’s probably a better defender than Randle but Randle has a much higher ceiling offensively as a far superior playmaker — and when Randle was engaged in 2021-22, he was a pretty good defender. Grant doesn’t come with the prima donna attitude though…

    Have to think that Grant will end up extending with Portland at a Randle-like $ number.

    I’m a little disappointed we’ve heard basically nothing about moving Randle. I understand the idea that you don’t want to sell low on him (and I think there’s a nonzero chance that he writes another Players Tribune piece and comes back with a much better attitude and result), but Obi deserves a chance to play more than 14 minutes/game.

    My prediction for tonight – we end up sticking at 11 and drafting Griffin or trading down/out. I just can’t imagine that Sac would trade out of another star-type player because of worry about fit with Fox (ie. Luka Doncic part 2). I hope we do not trade completely out of the draft for some sort of protected 2023 pick — if only because we’ll have to have 1000 comment threads on how we incinerated yet another pick.

    My actual hope for tonight – Johnny Davis/Daniels/Mathurin somehow drop to us and we pick him (seems quite unlikely). Or a trade down and draft Tari Eason or Jalen Williams.

29. Brian Cronin: I suspect that that is precisely why they’re putting him on the market, because they think they’re too far away for him to be a big part of the next great Spurs team and they think that the market is so crazy that if they trade him now, they’ll get a fortune for him.

    That’s why I’m thinking now might be the perfect time to move RJ.

30. d-mar:
    Would anyone really be unhappy if we just made our pick at 11 and rolled with what we have?

    I think at some point they have to put their jobs on the line and make an aggressive move. That does not mean I think they should be reckless or stupid, but current management has been in place for awhile now. So far they keep trying to get on base with a walk. Sooner or later they have to actually at least swing the bat even if they aren’t getting a fastball down the middle that makes it worthwhile to go for the fences. If they don’t make at least one move, I’ll be disappointed. IMO, there are some ideas out there that could make sense even if they fail to get Brunson or move up to 4. If they can’t get something done, IMO it shows a lack of creativity on their part or maybe even that other teams don’t want to deal with the Knicks for some reason (Dolan?).

31. Some minor changes in the final version:

    1. Chet
    2. Banchero
    3. Jaden Ivey
    4. Jeremy Sochan
    5. Keegan Murray
    6. Ben Mathurin
    7. Dyson Daniels
    8. Jabari Smith
    9. Tari Eason
    10. Shaedon Sharpe
    11. Johnny Davis
    12. TyTy Washington
    13. Malaki Branham
    14. Ousmane Dieng
    15. Kennedy Chandler
    16. AJ Griffin
    17. Dalen Terry
    18. Ryan Rollins
    19. Jalen Duren
    20. Jalen Williams
    21. Kendall Brown
    22. Josh Minott
    23. Mark Williams
    24. Jake LaRavia
    25. EJ Liddell
    26. Jaylin Williams
    27. Jaden Hardy
    28. Jabari Walker
    29. Nikola Jovic
    30. Bryce McGowens
    31. MarJon Beauchamp
    32. Christian Kolokko
    33. Jean Montero
    34. Hyunjung Lee
    35. Ziga Samar
    36. JD Davison
    37. Trevor Keels
    38. Blake Wesley
    39. Michael Foster
    40. Gabriele Procida
    41. Ochai Agbaji
    42. Walker Kessler
    43. Dereon Seabron
    44. Justin Lewis
    45. Ismael Kamagate
    46. Patrick Baldwin Jr.
    47. Andrew Nembhard
    48. Julian Champagnie
    49. Hugo Besson
    50. David Roddy
    51. Wendell Moore
    52. Marcus Bingham
    53. Alondes Williams
    54. Keon Ellis
    55. Trevion Williams
    56. Kai Sotto
    57. Christian Braun
    58. Matteo Spagnolo
    59. Caleb Houstan
    60. Jacob Gilyard

    -Couldn’t justify having Jabari Smith ahead of Dyson Daniels. I’m rather high on the latter and pretty skeptical of the former, had to get over the groupthink and pull the trigger.

    -Moved Kessler and Agbaji up a bit because I do think they both have a decent chance at being in the NBA for a while, which would be a hit in the range in which they’re now ranked.

    -Ziga Samar is one of the more interesting international guys in the class, didn’t realize he had declared. Would like him at 42 and the stash aspect would be good for our roster situation.

32. The Knicks generally getting praise last summer for free agency despite the acknowledgement the deals were a little pricey, then desperately trying to unload those same contracts now to create cap space, is another reminder how short-sighted most free agency reaction is.— Kevin Pelton (@kpelton) June 22, 2022

    Anyone familiar with the history of this team knew we’d be trying to attach sweetener to dump all of these guys before too long.

33. thenoblefacehumper: So far the fruits of the “hybrid” model is we have a bunch of veterans no one wants to trade for, the 11th pick in an unspectacular draft, and young players that are perfectly nice pieces…if you already have 2-3 players better than them.

    Yes, I’m with you. It’s purgatory to chase mid level players and pay them like stars. The only way forward is to find low cost talent and that happens in the draft and with player development. We do have some nice young players that fit that bill with another prospect or two coming tonight. I just don’t want us to muddy the waters with Vets. So, I’d like to see us move on from Rose, Burkes, Randle, Noel, etc. Whether that means trading them (for not much value) or just putting them on the bench. If in a year we’re picking 11 again, then we should have a yard sale and move into a tiny home for a while.

34. It’s definitely a problem that Burks needs surgery. He was a reasonably priced chip, and now he isn’t.

35. Honestly, with the exception of the top three or four picks in this draft, none of the players excite me, based on the limited reading I’ve done. So I find myself kind of thinking maybe we should get Sharpe if we can. He could be horrible or he could be great. I’m starting to think that’s better than the blah alternatives.

36. thenoblefacehumper: Anyone familiar with the history of this team knew we’d be trying to attach sweetener to dump all of these guys before too long.

    That’s the wrong premise. You have to put something into cap space. You try to solve problems long term, but if you don’t have that opportunity you try to remain flexible or gain an asset. After they had a solid year, they couldn’t keep any of their vet players on another 1 year deal to maximize flexibility. So they did 2 years instead of putting some other trash in that space.

    Burks is on a fair deal.

    We almost had to bring Noel back given we didn’t even know if Mitch could play or stay healthy. Noel is young enough to go forward with and the contract is fair. As it was, Mitch was rushed back to the court long before he was ready. He wasn’t himself for a couple of months, but Noel broke down. That makes it tougher to move him. But it wasn’t a mistake when done. His injuries were unfortunate. Sh$t happens.

    Kemba was flier that didn’t work out. In hindsight it’s easier to say that one was a mistake given the medical reports out of Boston (which were public at the time) said he had a degenerative condition that would not improve.

    IMO, the worst of the bunch was Fournier because imo he’s not the long term solution to any position and it’s an extra year. We might be able to move him if they want to, but his deal made the least sense.

37. Knick fan not in NJ:
    It’s definitely a problem that Burks needs surgery.He was a reasonably priced chip, and now he isn’t.

    His surgery was done right after the season ended. He will be ready for camp. I’m not familiar with the type of surgery or prognosis, but it sounds like a non event. it’s not going to stop us from trading him if another deal is on the table. But it’s never easy to just put a guy into someone else’s cap space. They want compensation. That’s different than just trading him.

38. Burks probably could have fetched an asset at the deadline. Knicks tried to make the playoffs instead (also didn’t have a non-Kemba PG left).

    We had to pay Noel or lose him for nothing. He was instrumental in our hot streak and generally in solidifying our defense.

    I don’t think we’ll need to give up much, if anything to move them.

39. Deeefense!!: You have to put something into cap space.

    You didn’t have to the first time you said this, you didn’t have to the 100th time you said this, and barring a major change in the CBA, you still won’t have to the one millionth time you say this.

40. A lot of people on this board said multiyear deals for Burks and Noel were not smart at the time. If they were insisting on them, the option to thank them for their services was right there. No one could force Leon Rose to do anything he didn’t want to do.

    We all knew Brunson’s free agency was coming up and that he projected to be a major target. We did all of this shit anyway. At least we won 37 games and got that sweet 11th pick.

41. There is a difference between trading a guy on a fair contract straight up for another player (should not be too difficult) and trying to put that same fair contact into someone else’s cap space (more difficult). The latter gives you fewer opportunities and the receiving team will want compensation even if the deal is fair (unless they consider him a critical part of their own team). But that’s rarely going to be the case or the team that has him probably wouldn’t want to move him. If the reports are correct and we are trying to move Burks, Noel, and Kemba into space and take little or nothing back, it may cost us something, That does not mean they were all bad signings.

42. Trading down from #11 and getting a mediocre package of a later 1RP and some other tiny asset is kind of like is kind of like Leon Rose’s MO so I expect that’s what will happen. “His guy” probably won’t be on the board at 11 so he’ll turn it into like #21 and #32 or something.

43. thenoblefacehumper:
    A lot of people on this board said multiyear deals for Burks and Noel were not smart at the time. If they were insisting on them, the option to thank them for their services was right there. No one could force Leon Rose to do anything he didn’t want to do.

    We all knew Brunson’s free agency was coming up and that he projected to be a major target. We did all of this shit anyway. At least we won 37 games and got that sweet 11th pick.

    A lot of people say a lot of things. lmao

    We needed a C because Mitch was a massive question mark. Noel was good the prior year and still young. If he didn’t get hurt and Mitch didn’t recover we might be complaining we don’t have him locked up longer.

    The Burks contract is not a problem. Even the Knick haters on Twitter are saying it’s a fair deal.

    The chances we get Brunson are close to zilch anyway. He has a major role on a serious long term contender. It’s like a variation on that joke. If he’s foolish enough to choose the Knicks I’m not sure I want him. lol

44. No one could predict the season Randle had this year, i think the 2+1 contracts were an ok bet. A super safe plan, but an understandable one. They added shooting with Fournier, expecting to not choke again in the playoffs. A lot of us predicted 50+ wins for the season. You can’t get there with players that are untradable. Of course with what we know now, i agree they’re probably untradable. But that is because we had a catastrophic season compared to the expectations. All the team looks bad when that happens.

45. I don’t really think you can fault management for Noel getting injured. It’s basketball, players get injured. You can’t predict who will get injured and who won’t.

46. Knick fan not in NJ: Honestly, with the exception of the top three or four picks in this draft, none of the players excite me, based on the limited reading I’ve done. So I find myself kind of thinking maybe we should get Sharpe if we can. He could be horrible or he could be great. I’m starting to think that’s better than the blah alternatives.

    There’s a pretty severe lack of high floor prospects as well. Just a bad draft overall.

    Deeefense!!: That’s the wrong premise. You have to put something into cap space.

    No, you literally don’t. There is no inherent benefit to using all your cap space.

47. Deeefense!!: The chances we get Brunson are close to zilch anyway. He has a major role on a serious long term contender. It’s like a variation on that joke. If he’s foolish enough to choose the Knicks I’m not sure I want him. lol

    Well, just about everyone is reporting that the plan of the front office you’re defending is in fact to clear out cap space, as in the players they signed a year ago, to make a run at Brunson.

    I know, I know, Fake News!

    vincoug: No, you literally don’t. There is no inherent benefit to using all your cap space.

    Spoiler alert: he’s not going to stop saying it.

48. The Magic should trade for DeJounte. He and Isaac (he’s coming back to play basketball someday, right?) would be a great defensive pairing. Then draft Bochero and call it a team. They’ve got a lot of young pieces to send to SA, including the Bulls pick next year. (Heck, they could even just trade the #1 for him and come out on top). Murray is Westbrook without the westbrooking, and is on a great long-term contract. Even without efficient scoring, he can be extremely valuable. We’ve never really seen him play with other good players before.

49. For me, the only reason for doing nothing at the trade deadline this year is that they believed they had enough flexibility to do something in the off season. And the most opportunities in the off season are on draft night.

    If they stay at 11 no big deal, but it does add weight to the argument that the FO does not have an actionable plan to improve this team. I do not consider “wait until 2023 because the opportunities to get something done will be better” and “let’s change the culture to make NY an attractive destination” actionable plans.

50. And before a certain someone says that it is harmful to team morale to intentionally underutilize cap space…

    https://www.oklahoman.com/story/sports/nba/thunder/2022/05/01/okc-thunder-players-owed-bonus-check-nba-salary-cap-floor-minimum/9598774002/

51. ***There is no inherent benefit to using all your cap space.***

    You get a mid-level exception if you do. (i.e. you get to overpay even more people).

52. Donnie Walsh:
    ***There is no inherent benefit to using all your cap space.***

    You get a mid-level exception if you do. That’s a benefit to teams that have money to burn.

    That’s only if the team is already over the cap or the cap space is less than the MLE.

53. That Rose is better the last several POBOs is cold comfort

    Especially bc it might not even be true when all is said and done.

    I’m in full blown “the die has been cast” mode heading into this draft. We are rim rocked bc of the poor choices that preceded today, so there’s no point going into the draft with high expectations. Just don’t do anything stupid.

54. I think largely running it back from a roster perspective would be basically fine if there was going to be a real commitment to using that roster differently but I just have no faith in Thibs to do that. Between the young talent on the roster already plus making their two picks tonight they could have a young, reasonably interesting team next year without doing anything too dramatic this offseason. But you’d have to be willing to teach a couple of the vets to wave towels and to using the young guys even if they’re not in Thibs preferred style – primarily giving IQ the lion’s share at PG and Obi major minutes (either benching Randle or playing them together). I really can’t see that happening though and that’s why I’ll be pretty frustrated if the roster looks exactly the same next year.

55. I’m a little depressed this offseason, because i’m not seeing a path to make good moves. They’re either too expensive or inexistent. I guess we’ll have to wait until 2023 and that’s a bummer. But keeping the vets will be bad, because we’ll manage to have a worse pick and there’ll be less playing time for the young players. And then we’ll let the vets go next summer, meaning there’s no good reason to keep them for the season. I hope i’m wrong, but this is what i’m “seeing” until next offseason.

56. Fournier and Randle are both trending on Twitter but I cannot for the life of me figure out why.

57. thenamestsam: I think largely running it back from a roster perspective would be basically fine if there was going to be a real commitment to using that roster differently but I just have no faith in Thibs to do that.

    I see a slight glimmer of hope based on the letter Rose wrote to season ticket holders (talking about the young core) and also Thibs’s comments at the end of the year that he should have played the kids more.

    the thing with Thibs is that he really does seem to be good at developing young talent, and by all accounts he takes that part of his job extremely seriously – but he doesn’t trust his own development and plays low-ceiling vets instead when push comes to shove. It’s very odd.

58. Frank: Fournier and Randle are both trending on Twitter but I cannot for the life of me figure out why.

    Here in Porto, Portugal, they’re not trending. You’re in NY, right? Then it’s Knicks fans trying to come up with trades to ship them out. LOL
    But i have your Supreme Court / SCOTUS… what have they done this time?

59. It’s not that Burks/Noel/Rose are horrible contracts, but given the dearth of talent on the team why didn’t/don’t we take on bad salary for picks? That’s what I really don’t understand. It’s not like Nerlens Noel was ever going to move the needle.

    Also as a big college basketball fan just want to relay that recruiting “experts” are saying the classes of 23 and 24 are particularly weak, because they lost a lot of coaching/experience due to COVID. So the next couple drafts may not be great either. I know there’s an international guy who’s supposed to be locked in for #1 overall in 2023, but AFAIK allowing HS guys to enter the draft soon is no longer on the table so I don’t think next year will be a great draft.

60. cybersoze: But i have your Supreme Court / SCOTUS… what have they done this time?

    If they have their way, there will be open-carry of AR-15s on NYC subways by the end of President DeSantis’s first term.

61. The Honorable Cock Jowles: If they have their way, there will be open-carry of AR-15s on NYC subways by the end of President DeSantis’s first term.

    Really? They refuse to enter the 21st century, and a lot of people will suffer from that. :(

62. >>>Knicks Film School Retweeted
    John Gambadoro
    @Gambo987
    Knicks have offered Evan Fournier’s contract into an exception that Boston has in order to free up enough space to sign Jalen Brunson.<<<

    Either everyone is totally full of crap (most likely) or Brunson is crazy enough to leave a team where he has a major role on a serious long term contender playing almost pressure free next to Doncic to join the Knicks and hope they make a run for the playoffs this year. If he's dumb enough to come to NY maybe he's too dumb for me to want him. lol It's either that or we are going to max him.

63. Let’s max Brunson for the big3 of Brunson, RJ (another max) and Randle.

64. As I expected Firouzja is struggling. So far Fabs and Nepo are in a good battle to see who is probably going to lose to Carlsen again. Liren is a disappointment so far, but maybe the time he took off and was inactive wound up hurting him.

65. Can we trade Evan Fournier into a trade exception that was created when the Celtics traded away… Evan Fournier?

66. Alan:
    Can we trade Evan Fournier into a trade exception that was created when the Celtics traded away… Evan Fournier?

    I just got dizzy.

67. ***Fournier and Randle are both trending on Twitter but I cannot for the life of me figure out why.***

    It’s probably because All Blacks left-wing Roger Randle has Fournier gangrene or something.

68. Alan:
    Can we trade Evan Fournier into a trade exception that was created when the Celtics traded away… Evan Fournier?

    No, his salary rises every year and the TPE does not.

    In theory if his salary was flat, I assume you could.

69. I couldn’t find confirmation but you can’t trade a player to a TPE created by himself. And this is because a TPE is no more than a deal that is only finished when you use the TPE. It’s called “non-simultaneous trade” and you have one year to finish it. Well, my reading is as Fournier is already on the trade that needs finishing as an outgoing player, then he can’t be the incoming player also.

70. Early Bird: No, his salary rises every year and the TPE does not.

    In theory if his salary was flat, I assume you could.

    Well, it depends on Fournier’s exact salary. We could’ve signed him for less than his original contract with Boston. It does look like Fournier’s salary is slightly higher than Boston’s TPE.

71. I’m thinking jk is probably right, most likely we trade down from 11…

    how uninspiring…

72. cybersoze:
    I couldn’t find confirmation but you can’t trade a player to a TPE created by himself. And this is because a TPE is no more than a deal that is only finished when you use the TPE. It’s called “non-simultaneous trade” and you have one year to finish it. Well, my reading is as Fournier is already on the trade that needs finishing as an outgoing player, then he can’t be the incoming player also.

    So the CBA says that a non-simultaneous trade can be completed when the exception is used to acquire a Replacement Player. Intuitively, you might think a player cannot replace himself, however, it’s a defined term so we should go with the provided definition rather than intuition (you could have the opposite intuition as well).

    The definition is as follows:

    (ccc) “Replacement Player” means, where appropriate, either a player who is acquired by a Team pursuant to the Traded Player Exception, or a player who is signed or acquired by a Team pursuant to the Disabled Player Exception.

    Given that Replacement Player just means whomever you acquire with the exception and the lack of any language stating that you can’t acquire the same player, I believe you can reacquire the same player that created the exception.

73. According to Keith Smith:

    For everyone asking about Fournier into the Fournier TPE: I legitimately don’t know the answer as to the legality of such a move.

    I’ve asked the smartest CBA/By Laws people I know and even they are split. It’s semantics on “season” vs “year”, but they are VERY important ones.

    I assume this is due to a restriction on trading Fournier back to his old team vs the start of the new season on July 1st.

    So technically the Knicks might be able to do it prior to July 1st but its not clear. Afterwards Fournier will cost too much.

74. I just saw a report that Boston is looking to put Luke Kennard into their TPE.

75. So if I’m reading things right over the last few days, basically anything the Knicks do tonight will be disliked by everyone (except perhaps Swift ; ), unless they miraculously trade all the way up to get Ivey, which many people will dislike but not everyone (including Swift ; ).

    Am I reading this right?

    Looking forward to tomorrow…

76. I still say the Knicks should hire Brian Cashman.

77. I am not expecting a ton from the Knicks but there is an easy and acceptable path. If they simply move on from at least half of the vets, including Randle, resign Mitch, and don’t screw up their pick i will be happy.

    Next year if we have Obi, Mitch, and RJ starting, IQ getting at least 30 minutes a game, Grimes, Reddish, and our rookie playing at least 20 minutes a game and Miles, Sims, and at least one other rookie having a shot for minutes I will be happy.

    All we need to do is commit to playing the young players and make a solid pick. If we do that we are fine. What we need to not do is make a stupid move that moves a bunch of young players, or trade out of the draft, or move forward with Randle in any major role.

78. Leaving aside the cap mechanics, wasn’t Fournier considered a pretty massive disappointment during his half season in Boston? They had his Bird rights last summer and didn’t seem to make much of an effort to retain him. Maybe his last season was so inspiring that they’ve thought better of that decision but I’m pretty skeptical.

79. Raven: So if I’m reading things right over the last few days, basically anything the Knicks do tonight will be disliked by everyone (except perhaps Swift ; ), unless they miraculously trade all the way up to get Ivey, which many people will dislike but not everyone (including Swift ; ).

    To put my cards on the table, trying to cover everything semi-realistic:

    Awesome outcomes:
    -Sochan, Daniels, or Mathurin fall to us at 11
    -We trade down and still get Tari Eason

    Good outcomes:
    -We draft Johnny Davis or Shaedon Sharpe at 11
    -We trade down and still get TyTy or Kennedy Chandler

    Fine outcomes:
    -We draft Malaki Branham or Ousmane Dieng at 11

    Below average outcomes:
    -We draft AJ Griffin or TyTy at 11

    Bad outcomes:
    -We draft Jalen Duren or Mark Williams at 11

    Really bad outcomes:
    -We draft Ochai Agbaji at 11

    Impossible-to-evaluate-without-knowing-the-specifics outcomes:
    -Any trade up

80. thenamestsam:
    Leaving aside the cap mechanics, wasn’t Fournier considered a pretty massive disappointment during his half season in Boston? They had his Bird rights last summer and didn’t seem to make much of an effort to retain him. Maybe his last season was so inspiring that they’ve thought better of that decision but I’m pretty skeptical.

    I’m thinking it was a luxury tax issue. They’re probably more willing to pay after a deep playoff run where they look like legit contenders (and padded their pockets pretty well too). He was also terrible for them and much better this year.

    It might take a sweetener to get done too.

81. Early Bird: I’m thinking it was a luxury tax issue. They’re probably more willing to pay after a deep playoff run where they look like legit contenders (and padded their pockets pretty well too). He was also terrible for them and much better this year.

    It might take a sweetener to get done too.

    But yeah I’m pretty skeptical it’s an actual deal.

82. Yeah, tonight I’m just along for the ride. I know next to nothing about the draft prospects this year and there are so many potential moving parts to what we may or may not do this off season, I’m going to not get too worked up over whatever initial moves we make tonight.

83. @KeithSmithNBA update:

    After a LOT (and I mean A LOT) of back and forth, here’s where the people I trust most landed:

    Boston could reacquire Evan Fournier using the Fournier TPE, as long as the deal happens in this league year (so, through June 30). On July 1, his contract is too large for the TPE.

84. Early Bird: Boston could reacquire Evan Fournier using the Fournier TPE, as long as the deal happens in this league year (so, through June 30). On July 1, his contract is too large for the TPE.

    Interesting, it’s legal then. Thanks Bird.

85. For the next 3 to 4 hours i’ll be at our yearly local festival – St John – and if i’m silent come draft time it’s either because i’m still partying or i drunk too much. :D
    Google “saint john porto” and you’ll know all about the festival/party. ;)

86. cybersoze:
    For the next 3 to 4 hours i’ll be at our yearly local festival – St John – and if i’m silent come draft time it’s either because i’m still partying or i drunk too much. :D
    Google “saint john porto” and you’ll know all about the festival/party. ;)

    Looks like fun. Have one for me. I’m going to get started any minute now. I want to be awake but pretty numb by 8:00.

87. in honor of the draft tonight and to get bad karma out of my house…my wife just took my porzingis jersey to the goodwill store as a donation…can’t wait to see who is wearing it around the neighborhood in a few weeks…

88. LMAO there is a graphic (from ESPN?) on my twitter feed now — “one pick from greatness” for the Kings:

    2018 – #2 pick Bagley –> #3 pick Doncic
    2012 – #5 pick Thomas Robinson –> #6 pick Dame Lillard
    2011 – #10 pick Jimmer Fredette –> #11 pick Klay Thompson

    This is so much worse than the Knicks always being 1 pick too late for greatness. They actually had the ability to take these guys!

89. Bad as we feel about always finishing one pick after a future Hall of Famer, look at all these instances of the Kings picking one spot before a future superstar:

    https://twitter.com/ClaireMPLS/status/1540051041273540608

90. I was in Lisbon one winter week and they had a million people with candles for the Virgin. I personally had my wallet picked on the subway, but they were kind thieves. They tossed my wallet in front of a hotel and it was returned.

91. cybersoze: Interesting, it’s legal then. Thanks Bird.

    I mean… probably?

    They will likely need to have an official ruling on it that I don’t want to figure out the procedure for.

92. Also in the “hey, it could be worse” category: Brooklyn!

    @ShamsCharania
    Sources: Kevin Durant is monitoring the Brooklyn Nets’ situation and considering options with his future.

    This now opens the path for Kyrie Irving to proceed on finding a new home via opt-in and trade.

93. @wojespn
    ESPN Sources: If Kyrie Irving can’t reach an agreement to stay with Brooklyn, he has a list of teams he’d like them to consider on sign-and-trades, including Lakers, Clippers, Knicks, Heat, Mavs and 76ers. None of those teams have cap space to sign him without Nets’ help.

94. I will be at our 8th grade graduation dance. We had our school’s graduation ceremony yesterday and I gave my final speech as principal and I officially told the crowd that I was retiring. It was very hard to get through and I got choked up several times.

    I’ll be lurking but probably won’t comment until I get home. For the record:
    If I were picking #1 I’d be happy with either Chet or Jabari. Would probably go Chet based more on his being a trade asset throughout his rookie contract rather than how I think he will do.
    I’d be happy with any trade up for Ivey or Sharpe just for the sheer excitement value, but wouldn’t be super confident about either one ever reaching a lofty ceiling.
    I’d be somewhat excited with a minor trade-up for Dyson or Mathurin
    I’d be fine with any of Duren, Sochan or Eason, maybe Branham at #11, or in a trade-down.
    I’d hate a trade-out or a trade for a vet.

95. They refuse to enter the 21st century, and a lot of people will suffer from that. :(

    Oddly enough, Cyber, in the majority opinion Judge Thomas ruled that all courts must view gun laws in the context of their 18th century intention.

96. I should add that my least favorite players from the lottery-range guys are:
    Johnny Davis
    Pablo Banchero
    Mark Williams
    AJ Griffin
    Keegan Murray

    And that I’d be okay with Agbaji, Dieng, or trading down for Jalen Williams and either Kessler or Chandler

97. Deeefense!!:
    As I expected Firouzja is struggling. So far Fabs and Nepo are in a good battle to see who is probably going to lose to Carlsen again.Liren is a disappointment so far, but maybe the time he took off and was inactive wound up hurting him.

    And I assure everyone who is thinking, “Hey, should I check out this chess tournament?” that the answer is “absolutely not” and you should head over to watch daily blitz tournaments on Twitch that are 100x more exciting than the meta-game of Super GM classical tournaments. (The stakes somehow can’t make the hyper-conservative chess more interesting than watching paint dry!) Or better yet: make a Lichess.org account and lose games until you reach your natural level, and let begin the unbearable pain of being a chess player.

98. Z-man: Keegan Murray

    Murray is so damn good on offense. What makes you dislike him? Age?

99. ***either because i’m still partying or i drunk***
    ***I want to be awake but pretty numb by 8:00.***
    ***my wife just took my porzingis***

    Drink up and pop all the pills you and your wives can, fellas. It’s gonna get ugly…

100. The Honorable Cock Jowles: Murray is so damn good on offense. What makes you dislike him? Age?

     More about his position and game, he just seems so redundant with Obi. I think Banchero is better than Murray and I don’t want him either. But both will probably be solid NBA 4’s.

101. Z-man: More about his position and game, he just seems so redundant with Obi. I think Banchero is better than Murray and I don’t want him either.

     You really can’t have enough 6’8″ guys in this league, though. It’s not like you’ve already got one <6'3" PG and are looking to draft another, or another plodding 7-footer with no range to add to a plodding 7-footer with no range. Dude is an ambidextrous wing scorer who can switch on defense.

     I see an enormous amount of upside in him.

102. johnny davis is the sort of prospect i’d normally hate, but for reasons i don’t fully get, i don’t

103. IMO, huge wins, contingent on not needing to give up tons of assets to get them:

     Ivey, Sharpe, Daniels

     Wins at pick 11:

     Mathurin, Sochan, Eason, a trade down for two firsts

     Okay at pick 11:

     Duren, Davis, overpay tradeup for Daniels/Mathurin, trade down for a later first and a future pick

     Bad at pick 11:

     Griffin, TyTy, Branham, Agbaji, Williams, Dieng, or a trade down that doesn’t lead to high upside rookies joining the team

104. So if I’m reading things right over the last few days, basically anything the Knicks do tonight will be disliked by everyone

     I just don’t see what he can do tonight to make the fans happy. And frankly I hope he doesn’t try. Because if he does try to make a splash, it will most likely cost way too much.

     He guided us into purgatory and now he has to chill until it’s easier to escape.

105. @ShamsCharania
     Sources: Kevin Durant is monitoring the Brooklyn Nets’ situation and considering options with his future.

     This now opens the path for Kyrie Irving to proceed on finding a new home via opt-in and trade.

     Maybe our 2019 KD and Kyrie dream isn’t dead!

106. The Honorable Cock Jowles: You really can’t have enough 6’8? guys in this league, though. It’s not like you’ve already got one <6’3″ PG and are looking to draft another, or another plodding 7-footer with no range to add to a plodding 7-footer with no range. Dude is an ambidextrous wing scorer who can switch on defense.

     I see an enormous amount of upside in him.

     Fair enough, I probably haven’t done as much research on him as others, partially due to age, partially redundancy, partially because he’s out of our reach and not a trade-up target. So I’ll revise my take to “neutral” based on my trust in your enthusiastic support for him.

107. The one thing I will say about Griffin is that he was a monster stud in HS before the injuries hit and none of the injuries seem all that bad. He’s super young, so if we draft him I’ll give the FO some slack until we learn more in summer league.

108. Z-man: Fair enough, I probably haven’t done as much research on him as others, partially due to age, partially redundancy, partially because he’s out of our reach and not a trade-up target. So I’ll revise my take to “neutral” based on my trust in your enthusiastic support for him.

     To my mind, there is a near-0% chance he flops out of the league. He is a guaranteed 10-year starter, barring injuries. A future supermax player? Probably not. But could be the #1 scorer for a decent playoff team, or #2 scorer for a Conference Finalist.

     Also a virtual 0% chance he ends up a Luka-type player who controls the ball on >50% of possessions. I see him more as a Siakam guy, in terms of getting others involved. High efficiency shot creator for himself, low shot creation for others.

109. Jowles, some of the top draft guys have sounded a bit skeptical of Murray, suggesting the tape doesn’t quite match the great numbers. Here’s Vecenie’s summary, for instance:

     I buy Murray being an impactful NBA player and probably a starter who puts up numbers as a scorer. He’s going to knock down shots, attack closeouts and take advantage of any leverage-based mismatch he gets. I brought up Tobias Harris earlier, and he’s ultimately the guy I see most when I watch Murray. He is at his best when keeping things simple with no frills. He’s going to push the ball in transition, catch and shoot, make the occasional mid-post, self-created bucket, and hit opposing guards on post mismatches. I also buy him as a shooter from all over the court in a variety of situations, meaning coaches will be able to move him around. Ultimately, it all comes down to whether you buy him as a switch guy on defense who can at least hold up at the point of attack, even if he’s not truly impactful. I think I buy him holding up enough to not be a liability, which when combined with the offense provides a pretty safe prospect to project. I don’t think he’s a guy you have to take out of the game because he’s getting crushed in switches. He’s skilled, he’s strong and he’s fundamentally sound. I wouldn’t be blown away with Murray as a top-five pick, and it’s not going to be the sexiest upside play, but he’s going to be a good NBA player.

110. +1 on many scouting reports not taking Murray’s driving/creation at face value. Take it FWIW.

     I think Sharpe is a better bet than Murray to be a star, which is what we probably should be aiming for.

111. ***Here’s Vecenie’s summary***

     #1 Never get involved in a land war in Asia

     #2 Never try to use Murray as a switchable defender

     #3 Never go against a Sicilian when death is on the line

112. Seems crazy we could trade down for Eason.

     I would be happy with him at 11.

113. Vecenie on Eason:

     Eason is certainly one of the more confounding players in this draft class. His frame and mix of athleticism and power gives him an exceptionally high upside in the right situation. But he has some significant skill flaws that will currently hinder him from reaching it. His jumper is not consistent enough and doesn’t have much of a chance in pull-up situations within its current iteration. He needs to slow down and make better passing reads consistently. But defensively, the ceiling is enormous, and offensively, he’s a terrific driver who has enough touch to possibly project him toward being a good shooter down the road. Hopefully, Eason gets drafted by a team that has a strong developmental plan for him to get the most out of his tools because his tools are ridiculous. In many ways, it’s all going to be about him, his work ethic and his willingness to fix his flaws. I think the floor is high enough for him with his defense that I would take him in the top half of the first round. But he’s going to be more polarizing than a player with these kinds of elite physical tools and monstrous production should be.

114. Eason just screams Anthony Randolph to me.

115. >>#3 Never go against a Sicilian when death is on the line<<

     lmao

     I'm Sicilian.

     I could tell some insane stories about mob characters in NYC OTBs.

116. Too many rumors are we ready for a typical Knicks move which is no move?

117. If I will do it-
     Trade Noel burks founier for cap space / picks as they’re replaceable.
     Trade randle if it’s worth the price.
     Sign and trade mitch for Lavine
     Cam plus 11 for number 5 if that’s work or cam and randle for 5?
     Keep the money don’t use it for brunson

118. Don’t have a clue about draft players (as always) except a few names i read in here that remind me of something similar like malakas, pajero, poison ivy and try try try
     Waiting patiently for the Knicks moves without many splash and bang expectations due to the previous two drafts
     Also waiting for the kb operatic dramatisation in case of a lost chance, bad move, obvious mistake by the FO
     Let’s Do it baby!
     Draft Night
     The True Knicks Perverted Finals Game 7

119. Is anyone having trouble posting?

     My most recent post vanished.

120. (Knicks diehard predraft “shootaround “)
     Fuk You Leon!
     Fuk YOuuuuuuu!

121. #Is anyone having trouble posting?#

     Nope
     But i had some troubles while writing it
     It went to the top of the page 2-3 times

122. Maybe we need a new draft thread. This could get intense.

123. Happy Draft Day everyone. I have no idea what the Knicks will do and that fascinates and scares the shit out of me at the same time.

     Best case feels like we move some vet contracts and picks to move up, worst is we cut bait and move back (which doesn’t feel that bad of an outcome). Do your thing Leon.