Knicks Morning News (2022.06.21)

  • Skip Bayless Throws Shade At Potential Kyrie Irving-Anthony Davis Trade: “AD Is More Valuable Now Than A Kyrie Who Now Believes There Are Far More Important Things In Life Than Winning Basketball Games.” – Yardbarker
    [www.yardbarker.com] — Tuesday, June 21, 2022 7:25:02 AM

    Skip Bayless Throws Shade At Potential Kyrie Irving-Anthony Davis Trade: “AD Is More Valuable Now Than A Kyrie Who Now Believes There Are Far More Important Things In Life Than Winning Basketball Games.”  Yardbarker

  • NBA Draft: Johnny Davis confident he’d ‘make an impact immediately’ with Knicks – New York Post
    [nypost.com] — Monday, June 20, 2022 11:19:00 PM

    NBA Draft: Johnny Davis confident he’d ‘make an impact immediately’ with Knicks  New York Post NBA Draft: Wisconsin’s Johnny Davis Says He Could Make An ‘Immediate Impact’ With The Knicks  ForbesJohnny Davis confident he could make an ‘immediate impact’ with the Knicks  AS USAJohnny Davis would relish chance with Knicks – SGE  Sports Grind EntertainmentView Full Coverage on Google News

  • Highlights from week 2 of the Utica Lady Knicks Premier League – WUTR/WFXV – CNYhomepage.com
    [www.cnyhomepage.com] — Monday, June 20, 2022 11:04:56 PM

    Highlights from week 2 of the Utica Lady Knicks Premier League  WUTR/WFXV – CNYhomepage.com

  • Knicks Player Calls Steph Curry ‘Favorite Player of All-Time’ – Yardbarker
    [www.yardbarker.com] — Monday, June 20, 2022 9:41:46 PM

    Knicks Player Calls Steph Curry ‘Favorite Player of All-Time’  Yardbarker

  • Are New York Knicks Kyrie Irving’s most likely landing spot? – NBC Sports
    [www.nbcsports.com] — Monday, June 20, 2022 6:54:06 PM

    Are New York Knicks Kyrie Irving’s most likely landing spot?  NBC Sports

  • NBA Draft: For New York Native A.J. Griffin, Playing For The Knicks ‘Would Be A Dream Come True’ – Forbes
    [www.forbes.com] — Monday, June 20, 2022 5:50:53 PM

    NBA Draft: For New York Native A.J. Griffin, Playing For The Knicks ‘Would Be A Dream Come True’  Forbes

  • Examining potential destinations for Mitchell Robinson – BasketballNews.com
    [www.basketballnews.com] — Monday, June 20, 2022 5:45:00 PM

    Examining potential destinations for Mitchell Robinson  BasketballNews.com

  • NBA Draft 2022: Ranking the most intriguing teams, from Knicks trying to move up to Blazers’ crucial decision – CBS Sports
    [www.cbssports.com] — Monday, June 20, 2022 5:17:00 PM

    NBA Draft 2022: Ranking the most intriguing teams, from Knicks trying to move up to Blazers’ crucial decision  CBS Sports

  • Knicks 2022 NBA Draft: No. 11 pick prospect Jalen Duren – Daily Knicks
    [dailyknicks.com] — Monday, June 20, 2022 5:00:00 PM

    Knicks 2022 NBA Draft: No. 11 pick prospect Jalen Duren  Daily Knicks

  • The Knicks unveiled their 2022 Summer League schedule – Posting and Toasting
    [www.postingandtoasting.com] — Monday, June 20, 2022 4:32:50 PM

    The Knicks unveiled their 2022 Summer League schedule  Posting and Toasting

  • Could the Knicks figure out a way to land Jaden Ivey? – New York Daily News
    [www.nydailynews.com] — Monday, June 20, 2022 4:24:00 PM

    Could the Knicks figure out a way to land Jaden Ivey?  New York Daily News

  • Pacers Trade Rumors: Knicks, Wizards Eye Malcolm Brogdon; Hornets Eye Myles Turner – Bleacher Report
    [bleacherreport.com] — Monday, June 20, 2022 2:43:06 PM

    Pacers Trade Rumors: Knicks, Wizards Eye Malcolm Brogdon; Hornets Eye Myles Turner  Bleacher Report

  • Realistic Trades We Could See During 2022 NBA Draft Week – Bleacher Report
    [bleacherreport.com] — Monday, June 20, 2022 12:25:02 PM

    Realistic Trades We Could See During 2022 NBA Draft Week  Bleacher Report

  • Secret Service: Knicks Odds of Signing Bradley Beal from Wizards – Yardbarker
    [www.yardbarker.com] — Monday, June 20, 2022 12:14:41 PM

    Secret Service: Knicks Odds of Signing Bradley Beal from Wizards  Yardbarker

  • Kyrie Irving to the Knicks would be an atrocious move for New York – Daily Knicks
    [dailyknicks.com] — Monday, June 20, 2022 11:23:00 AM

    Kyrie Irving to the Knicks would be an atrocious move for New York  Daily Knicks

  • These 3 Trades Send Pacers’ Malcolm Brogdon To Knicks – NBA Analysis Network
    [nbaanalysis.net] — Monday, June 20, 2022 11:12:26 AM

    These 3 Trades Send Pacers’ Malcolm Brogdon To Knicks  NBA Analysis Network

  • BIG3 Week 1 Report: Former Knicks Forward Michael Beasley Shines in Win – Yardbarker
    [www.yardbarker.com] — Monday, June 20, 2022 11:09:41 AM

    BIG3 Week 1 Report: Former Knicks Forward Michael Beasley Shines in Win  Yardbarker

  • Jabari Walker goes to the Knicks in CBS Sports mock draft – Colorado Buffaloes Wire
    [coloradobuffaloeswire.usatoday.com] — Monday, June 20, 2022 10:50:00 AM

    Jabari Walker goes to the Knicks in CBS Sports mock draft  Colorado Buffaloes Wire

  • 2022 NBA Mock Draft: What is going to happen on June 23? – Daily Knicks
    [dailyknicks.com] — Monday, June 20, 2022 8:00:00 AM

    2022 NBA Mock Draft: What is going to happen on June 23?  Daily Knicks

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    149 thoughts to “Knicks Morning News (2022.06.21)”

    1. I find it annoying that the Knicks are mentioned in so many draft, trade and free agency rumors. If I thought the Knicks were playing 4d chess to throw other teams off their trail, I guess I’d be less annoyed. But it’s mostly about players using the Knicks for leverage and sportswriters looking for clicks. I don’t expect anyone to tell me what the plans are, but I’d like to know what the serious considerations are without all the other noise.

    2. Deeefense!!:
      I find it annoying that the Knicks are mentioned in so many draft, trade and free agency rumors.If I thought the Knicks were playing 4d chess to throw other teams off their trail, I guess I’d be less annoyed. But it’s mostly about players using the Knicks for leverage and sportswriters looking for clicks.I don’t expect anyone to tell me what the plans are, but I’d like to know what the serious considerations are without all the other noise.

      Given how previous regimes of both this team and other local teams (like the Gettleman Giants) have leaked like a sieve and allowed other teams to maneuver ahead of them, I appreciate the fact that the Rose regime is so unknowable. The only rumor I feel confident about is that the FO really likes Ivey and is trying to trade up for him. And even there, it is in no way clear how much the FO would be willing to pay for such a thing.

      But on an anxiety level, yes, it would be nice to have some inkling of what Plans A through C or D are.

    3. The FO likes Ivey, yes, and Daniels too. I’m hoping they send a vet to Portland to trade up for 7th and get Daniels. If they manage to then trade up with the Kings for 4th and Ivey, even better. But no overpays, please.

    4. Oh, and here be those rumors Strat requested! From Jake Fischer:

      There is a path for Irving to decline his option and sign with New York as an unrestricted free agent. Part of the rumblings about Irving and the Knicks’ mutual interest is that head coach Tom Thibodeau is a fan of Irving. But New York would have to shed significant salary, sacrifice valuable draft capital in the process and still likely need to stretch a contract or two to free up the space to meet Irving’s near $40 million wages.

      In forecasting their offseason dealings, the Knicks are said to be targeting roughly $25 million in room to be able to chase Dallas Mavericks point guard Jalen Brunson, and they are expected to find new homes for Alec Burks and Nerlens Noel, among other moves. Even if New York pivoted away from Brunson, who league personnel widely believe will return to Dallas, the Knicks would have a large gap to meet Irving’s contractual wishes.

      He also mentions we’re continuing to chase after that Kings pick to take Ivey. (Macri’s theory all along has been that the Knick offseason plan for PG ranks as follows: 1)Trade up for Ivey, 2)Sign or sign-and-trade for Brunson, 3)Something other than just starting IQ.)

    5. My anxiety level is fine, and i’d advise the following if you want to be as calm as i am. Go to BRef, drafts 2021 and 2020, and order by BPM or VORP. Then look where Obi, Quick and Grimes are on those lists. Spoiler alert, they’re always Top8 (if we set a minimum of 300 mins per season). Sims does OK too, being in the teens (he was the 58th pick!?).

    6. Still more rumors, Strat! This time from Jonathan Givony:

      Few teams expect the Knicks to be drafting [at 11] when all is said and done. The team is said to be aggressively exploring scenarios in which they will trade down or trade out of the draft altogether if they can land a starting caliber-point guard such as Malcolm Brogdon

    7. God please don’t give up the 11th pick for Malcolm Brogdon.

      (And Indy would say yes to that in a millisecond)

    8. After having the season derailed by, among other things, an injury prone starting PG, we’re trying to waste assets on the same plan!? I don’t buy it. I think that’s exactly what Strat was saying, Indy is using the Knicks to pump up Brogdon’s value.

    9. In order of preference:

      1) Trading down and still winding up with one or more of Eason/Sochan/TyTy/Branham

      2) Making the 11th pick

      3) Trading up for Ivey

      4) The explosion of the sun

      5) Trading the 11th pick for Brogdon

      Of course there’s a theoretical cost worth paying to trade up, but in the real word where it’s gonna be an arm and a leg I just don’t see Ivey as a worthwhile target. I’ve been as adamant as everyone else that we need a star and should take some risks to get one, but I’m betting against Ivey being that dude.

    10. I don’t want Kyrie, but Fischer is wrong, we have a very good situation, money wise, with a lot of easily tradable contracts. He says Burks and Noel get us to 25M, which is false. He’s probably counting on stretch-waiving Kemba, that will get us to 25M in cap space. Now you only need to trade DRose and Cam to get to Kyrie’s money. Cam is easy, a rebuilding team with cap space will give something for him, a late 2nd rounder maybe. DRose probably is of interest of teams with TPEs, but even if he isn’t, i’m sure the Lakers would gladly trade THT for DRose, and then we send THT to a rebuilding team like we did with Cam.
      This is one thing Leon has been doing really well, the cap space management.

    11. Alan:
      Oh, and here be those rumors Strat requested! From Jake Fischer:

      He also mentions we’re continuing to chase after that Kings pick to take Ivey. (Macri’s theory all along has been that the Knick offseason plan for PG ranks as follows: 1)Trade up for Ivey, 2)Sign or sign-and-trade for Brunson, 3)Something other than just starting IQ.)

      I just don’t see either of the first two options happening. It’s too hard to trade up that far and there is also lots of competition to do so. Brunson is going to be hard to trade for since all indications are Dallas will keep him. That leaves option 3. Free agent pickings are slim (ignoring Kyrie and Brunson). See:
      https://theathletic.com/3361251/2022/06/13/nba-free-agent-point-guard-kyrie/

      If I had to pick from that list, I’d pick Raul Neto and cross my fingers. If we had to trade for a point guard instead, I suspect we would consider Dinwiddie, since Dallas will already have Brunson. But the trade doesn’t seem easy, so I have to say it looks actually starting Quickley is likely, and that doesn’t seem so bad to me.

    12. thenoblefacehumper: Of course there’s a theoretical cost worth paying to trade up, but in the real word where it’s gonna be an arm and a leg I just don’t see Ivey as a worthwhile target. I’ve been as adamant as everyone else that we need a star and should take some risks to get one, but I’m betting against Ivey being that dude.

      And what if it only takes Randle and the 7th pick* for the Kings to make the deal? They’re rumored to select Murray with the 4th pick, and maybe he’ll be there for the 7th. Either way, they’re searching for a PF and Randle fits the bill, it’ll be a nightmare to pair Sabonis with Randle, but it’s the Kings we’re talking about. They thought Bagley was better than Luka.
      * – i keep insisting that Portland will take Burks to trade down 4 spots.

    13. Macri’s theory all along has been that the Knick offseason plan for PG ranks as follows: 1)Trade up for Ivey, 2)Sign or sign-and-trade for Brunson, 3)Something other than just starting IQ.)

      Even if you like Ivey (I’m pretty meh) I don’t see any sense in which he solves the PG issue for next season. He’s going to be a project and a plan to give him the ball a lot next season is a plan to lose a lot of games. A lot of us wouldn’t mind that but I’m pretty confident that’s not the Knicks plan. If the plan is to compete for the playoffs next year (close to a certainty with Thibs at the helm) trading up for Ivey as the PG “solution” moves you away from that goal, not towards it. Rookie high usage PG is the express track to a top 5 pick.

    14. If the Knicks were that interested in Ivy, they probably shouldn’t have won 12 of their last 19 games.

    15. Oh, missed this while skimming earlier: Fischer says that if the big men go in the top 3 picks and Sacramento doesn’t trade the pick, they’ll draft Keegan Murray, and then the Pistons will pounce on Ivey.

    16. cybersoze: And what if it only takes Randle and the 7th pick* for the Kings to make the deal? They’re rumored to select Murray with the 4th pick, and maybe he’ll be there for the 7th. Either way, they’re searching for a PF and Randle fits the bill, it’ll be a nightmare to pair Sabonis with Randle, but it’s the Kings we’re talking about. They thought Bagley was better than Luka.
      * – i keep insisting that Portland will take Burks to trade down 4 spots.

      I don’t think there’s any chance of either the Kings wanting Randle or Portland being willing to trade down 4 spots in the lottery for Alec Burks

    17. Responding to comments from last thread:

      None of the model rankings surprise me much.
      The last name brigade put up GREAT numbers, so the models love them. Scouts question their fit at the next level, and Chandler probably isn’tthe 3pt threat he showed if you look at his ft%. Ivey’s numbers are underwhelming, so models don’t love him. You’re betting on his athleticism, better spacing, and having more sets at PG.

      For Chandler scouts make too much out of his height. Unlike other undersized guards he was a great college defender. His combine testing backs up his athletic talent on defense.

      It isn’t clear how Kessler’s offensive game translates. He isn’t a lob threat and was terrible on 3s & from the line. I also wonder if scouts see him as a big white lump and assume he’s not athletic enough. If his shooting comes around he’ll be very good.

    18. I think Sacto could maybe squeeze Grant out of Detroit just by letting them swap picks, giving them Grant and Keegan. Idk if they can do better than that.

    19. I think it was Z-Man who was wanting to trade down for Kessler and Chandler. That would be an interesting gamble.

    20. @cyber, I think only Boston has a big enough TPE for Rose and interest in trading for him. Portland has room but with Simons & Dame I can’t see them pulling the trigger.

      It’s doable, but Boston has been hesitant to pay tax. Maybe that changes following the finals run.

    21. ess-dog:
      I think it was Z-Man who was wanting to trade down for Kessler and Chandler. That would be an interesting gamble.

      I would love to see us do something creative, like trade w CHA for 13 and 15, then trade one of those for two lower picks and take these two guys. Then use the other however, hopefully not in a trade for Brogdan but at least it would hurt less.

    22. Honestly, I just want some new faces out of the first round to root for in summer league. I don’t have super strong feelings about anything beyond no Kyrie.

    23. Trading down. . .fine by me I guess. Trading out of the draft to get an overpaid injury prone mediocrity. . .not as great.

    24. Reading between the lines, I’d say Knicks management does not think they are in the sweet spot of this year’s draft. Looking at articles about this draft they could be right. Pick 11 isn’t high enough to get a player you are confident of. I don’t know what they will do (and I agree with Alan that this is a good thing), but I hope they find something they can do.

    25. If there’s any draft to trade out of, this isn’t a terrible one. Still would like someone out of it.

      Chandler would be my trade down target.

      There’s really no way we get 13 & 15 unless we add a lot more to that trade. And I don’t think the FO wants that many picks anyway.

    26. Alan: The team is said to be aggressively exploring scenarios in which they will trade down or trade out of the draft altogether if they can land a starting caliber-point guard such as Malcolm Brogdon

      My anxiety level WAS fine, Alan. :P

    27. Early Bird: @cyber, I think only Boston has a big enough TPE for Rose

      If healthy he certainly would’ve helped Boston a lot more than the options they had off the bench.

    28. As a Vol alumnus, I’ll be happy if the Knicks trade back and end up with Chandler, though I don’t think he’d be much, if any, help this season.

    29. DRed: Burks & 11 for pick X. How low would you go?

      9. There’s a chance one of Daniels or Mathurin is there, if Sharpe and Duren make the Top8.

    30. Personally, I’d like to trade down and take one “win now” guy and one “high upside” guy who maybe goes to the Gleague.

      So if we traded for the Rockets picks at 17 and 26, I’d grab a guy an upside guy like Hardy, Beauchamp, or TyTy, and then maybe a guy like Agbaji, Eason, or Dalen Terry with the other pick.

      That said, it sounds like late first rounders will also be for sale, so maybe we’ll keep 11 and do something like that instead.

    31. Burks & 11 for pick X. How low would you go?

      I can’t see us doing better than getting Charlotte’s 13th pick for that.

      Cyber, I don’t think this Fisher guy is wrong. We’ll probably have to pay quite a bit to offload the guys you mentioned this summer.

    32. I could see us trading down for 17 and 26 but unless we trade 3-4 veterans I think there’s basically no chance we’d actually make both picks. Maybe one of them would be a stash.

      Coming away with something like Eason and Chandler would be a heist for sure.

    33. Hubert: Cyber, I don’t think this Fisher guy is wrong. We’ll probably have to pay quite a bit to offload the guys you mentioned this summer.

      Maybe it’s my optimistic side talking. But looking on the bright side, i don’t need to worry about Kyrie, as it isn’t a viable option.

    34. The Honorable Cock Jowles: I will not root for a team with Kyrie Irving on it

      If Kyrie comes, Mike K will create a new blog named Anti-Knickerblogger.net and we’ll meet there. LOL
      Well, most of us, Hubert will stay here talking to himself. LOLOL

    35. My thought with Burks (or Noel)+11 is wed be moving down, Alec is probably thought of as a negative value player on his contract (I think that’s actually a mistake) so we’d be using the 11 to dump him

    36. Not sure how far I’d trade down (I think he’s a positive asset), but Alec Burks is our 3rd string PG and like it or not we don’t have a better emergency option. RJ, maybe?

      I don’t know if we can move Burks until we fix our PG problem.

    37. DRed: My thought with Burks (or Noel)+11 is wed be moving down, Alec is probably thought of as a negative value player on his contract (I think that’s actually a mistake) so we’d be using the 11 to dump him

      Well, looks like i’m overly optimistic about our players’ value. I’ll try to refrain from posting trade ideas. ;)

    38. At least the energy at MSG would be a positive energy with Kyrie burning sage around the court.

    39. @ShamsCharania: Caleb Swanigan, the Purdue standout who played three NBA seasons with Portland and Sacramento, has passed away at 25 years old, his alma mater says. RIP.

    40. “Given how previous regimes of both this team and other local teams (like the Gettleman Giants) have leaked like a sieve and allowed other teams to maneuver ahead of them, I appreciate the fact that the Rose regime is so unknowable”

      It’s not much that I want to know their plans. It’s that I want the media and players to stop putting out BS.

      For example, we are hearing Kyrie to the Knicks as an option, but Alan Hahn (who might actually know what the thinking is) is basically saying it’s all BS. So we know either Kyrie’s people are putting that out there hoping to gain leverage with the Nets and the sports writers are just going with it even though they know it’s BS or they are just making it up themselves for clicks. How about either tapping some legitimate sources to find out of there is any interest or telling Kyrie’s camp to buzz off?

    41. I am warming to the idea of unloading part of our war chest to go for Ivey. I think I would trade 11, top 4 protected 2023 NYK pick, and the Dallas pick + Grimes and one of Burks or Reddish and take back bad salary to make the #s work. I wonder whether that would be enough to get it done. Sac has 3 starters (as of now) in Fox, Sabonis, and Barnes – Grimes and Burks/Reddish would be far superior to what they have now on the wings. Fox, Grimes, Reddish/Burks, Barnes, and Sabonis would actually be a pretty fun group. If they wanted Quickley instead of Grimes I would probably grit my teeth and do that too.

      Then trade Randle + 1-2 vets and try to get some of those draft assets back. Start Ivey, RJ, Fournier, Obi, Mitch. It might not be good but it would definitely be fun.

      I would do this 100x over before I traded 11 for Brogdon.

    42. If we’re moving Burks in order to get space to sign Jalen Brunson you don’t have to worry about solving our PG problem

    43. Yeah ideally a trade down with the Rockets would include them taking on salary too (Burks, Noel, etc.) I think they want to move up badly to get two lottery guys. Another target could be San Antonio’s two picks (20 and 25). I can’t believe we actually signed all those ridiculous contracts with players hovering around age 30. Not a good look for Leon.

    44. I will not root for a team with Kyrie Irving on it

      You’re rooting for a team whose starting PG is a rapist, and I know that’s something you do not take lightly because you have a strong moral code.

      Far from “abject trolling”, I’m merely trying to shine light on several inconsistencies at play here.

      I don’t recall any irrational hatred for Kyrie when he left Cleveland. This all started in Boston, a city legendary for smearing the fuck out its athletes in the media. It’s become self-perpetuating ever since.

    45. cybersoze:
      After having the season derailed by, among other things, an injury prone starting PG, we’re trying to waste assets on the same plan!? I don’t buy it. I think that’s exactly what Strat was saying, Indy is using the Knicks to pump up Brogdon’s value.

      Right.

      In Brogdan’s case there could be some smoke there, but I think it’s mostly speculation. The Pacers are probably using the Knicks for leverage (the same way everyone else does). He’s apparently available, the Knicks need a PG, so let’s make up a bunch of stories.

      I think the interest in Brunson is legitimate and they did due diligence on Ivey, but they know both are longshots. After that, it’s probably all nonsense. I said the other day it’s probably going to be uneventful. They’ll extend Mitch, draft 11th, and keep building. Of course I hope they come up with something great, but my expectations are low.

    46. DRed:
      If we’re moving Burks in order to get space to sign Jalen Brunson you don’t have to worry about solving our PG problem

      Yeah, if that’s the plan definitely but I’d need deals lined up for both before I pull the trigger.

      I don’t think I can give an exact pick, but Chandler is the player I’d target. I see him as not really worse than a lot of guys at 11. He’s probably going in the mid-20s, but I suspect this draft will be all over the place.

      Tyty, Eason, & Jalen Williams would be no brainers. Hell, probably Dalen Terry & Jake LaRavia would be a yes and that gets you pretty close to 30.

    47. I don’t think there’s much to the Kyrie talk… just an agent using threats to get the best possible deal for her client. In this case, Brooklyn’s worst nightmare would be for Kyrie to blow up their plans, go to their rival, return to form, and win a chip. Makes sense to put that out there.

    48. Thibs may be an asshole, but I don’t have to listen to him at a press conference being that asshole.

      Rose probably raped a woman, but he wisely doesn’t bring it up..

      Kyrie likely got a number of people killed from not taking the vaccine and others killed for giving it a podium, and he won’t shut up about it.

    49. Early Bird:

      Kyrie likely got a number of people killed from not taking the vaccine and others killed for giving it a podium, and he won’t shut up about it.

      One of the more vexing challenges, when I was in the classroom, was that so many of my male students would take what an athlete would say as gospel truth, regardless of its lack of scientific underpinnings. Truly scary the power a Kyrie Irving holds over his fans. It makes his statements all the more despicable.

    50. Frank: I think I would trade 11, top 4 protected 2023 NYK pick, and the Dallas pick + Grimes and one of Burks or Reddish and take back bad salary to make the #s work.

      Wisdom aside, I don’t think this comes all that close.

      Jake Fischer says the Kings have heard offers from us, the Pacers, the Spurs, the Wizards, and “others.” Begley says we’ve already offered 11 and “multiple first-round picks.”

      Reading the tea leaves, it seems very unlikely we can trade up to 4 for this kind of market level package.

      Also I will reiterate that I’m just not seeing what others are seeing in Ivey. He was definitely one of the more fun players to watch this year and I think he’s a pretty good prospect, but compare his numbers to, say, Mathurin’s. Why is one a potential superstar while the other is largely regarded as a “high floor” type?

      Ivey’s athleticism is a genuine outlier trait so I won’t be floored if he turns out to be really good, but this is just not a can’t miss guy. His statistical comps when you account for age don’t exactly jump off the page.

    51. Bo Nateman: One of the more vexing challenges, when I was in the classroom, was that so many of my male students would take what an athlete would say as gospel truth, regardless of its lack of scientific underpinnings. Truly scary the power a Kyrie Irving holds over his fans. It makes his statements all the more despicable.

      Exactly. No one knows the scientists, but everybody knows the great athletes, they’re like family to us, we see them almost everyday. It’s easy to trust a person you think you know well. And that gives them a great responsability. I’m not asking that all athletes become Kareem, but Kyrie is on the opposite side, he’s spreading bad messages.

    52. Part of the problem, trading up or down, is that this draft is so full of mediocrity that #11 just doesn’t have much value. You’re trying to trade a guy who is likely a ho-hum role player for one of the only potential superstars in the draft.

      Trading down doesn’t net you much because #11 has negligible value over picks into the 20s.

    53. Funny but I didn’t see any boycotts of the Yankees while Aaron Judge was holding out against the vaccine. How many people did he kill? Apparently the racist 3B ain’t no thing, either. Not to mention the two wife beaters in the bullpen.

      I’m sorry I have to explain this to a bunch of really smart people, but your arguments are not logical because they’re coming from emotion mind. You hate Kyrie because you hate Kyrie because everyone hates Kyrie and everyone says they hate Kyrie.

    54. Early Bird:
      Part of the problem, trading up or down, is that this draft is so full of mediocrity that #11 just doesn’t have much value. You’re trying to trade a guy who is likely a ho-hum role player for one of the only potential superstars in the draft.

      Trading down doesn’t net you much because #11 has negligible value over picks into the 20s.

      I agree with you for the most part but one reason I’m a little more optimistic about a trade down is it does seem possible a “pedigree” type e.g. Griffin or Sharpe falls to 11 and it only takes one team to be enamored with one of those guys.

      Spot on about the lack of ammo for a trade up, we’d have to make it extremely worthwhile with assets outside of a pick only 7 spots below.

    55. One of the more vexing challenges, when I was in the classroom, was that so many of my male students would take what an athlete would say as gospel truth, regardless of its lack of scientific underpinnings. Truly scary the power a Kyrie Irving holds over his fans. It makes his statements all the more despicable.

      Yes, very scary. Kyrie has killed so many.

      How do you explain the NFL to your students? And not just the vile acts of violence they watch, but the fact that over 75% own guns and quite a few of them have committed murder or suicide with them?

      Oh, but Kyrie. What a killer.

    56. Hubert,

      You bring up valid points but I would argue that NBA players, especially someone like Kyrie, have much more sway in popular culture than baseball players do. Baseball just ain’t THAT popular anymore. The biggest stars in baseball aren’t nearly the cultural icons that the biggest stars in the NBA are.

    57. I forgot to share a tweet dedicated to Farfa and Max, so here it is.

      Immanuel Jaylen Quickley: So many Knicks fans in Italy it’s crazy

    58. I don’t think they are going trade down. IMO, they aren’t going to add 2 1st round rookie contracts unless they really love two guys. First, It’s not like they have a lot of excess roster spots. Second, they aren’t going to move a vet they like and they think is a good mentor etc.. to add someone that’s shuttling back and forth to the G league just because he’s young. Maybe they’ll move down and take a future pick or do a draft and stash, but they have a LOT of young players already, They aren’t trying to get younger. They are trying to get better while remaining young with upside.

    59. Early Bird: Yeah, if that’s the plan definitely but I’d need deals lined up for both before I pull the trigger.

      I don’t think I can give an exact pick, but Chandler is the player I’d target. I see him as not really worse than a lot of guys at 11. He’s probably going in the mid-20s, but I suspect this draft will be all over the place.

      Tyty, Eason, & Jalen Williams would be no brainers. Hell, probably Dalen Terry & Jake LaRavia would be a yes and that gets you pretty close to 30.

      That LaRavia kid is intriguing

    60. Hubert: Funny but I didn’t see any boycotts of the Yankees while Aaron Judge was holding out against the vaccine. How many people did he kill? Apparently the racist 3B ain’t no thing, either. Not to mention the two wife beaters in the bullpen.

      I’m sorry I have to explain this to a bunch of really smart people, but your arguments are not logical because they’re coming from emotion mind. You hate Kyrie because you hate Kyrie because everyone hates Kyrie and everyone says they hate Kyrie.

      Judge ultimately got the vaccine. He didn’t get up on any sort of soapbox and give a completely self-serving bad faith explanation about oppression or whatever. And he never sold his team out on a whim.

      The domestic violence stuff is obviously gross. The Donaldson thing I could probably chalk up to being dumb and not understanding that that might offend someone (seriously, if he thought/knew it was offensive did he think he’d get away with it?).

      But here’s the thing about Kyrie – it’s all bad faith and it’s all me me me me me. When he was missing games and making Durant play 39 min/game, he didn’t care. He kept saying he knew things and the rule would get taken down for him – like COVID is something keeping him in a penalty box instead of a 100-year pandemic that has killed millions of people, and because he’s Kyrie fucking Irving of course someone will bend over backward for him and just end the rule for him because he happens to be good at putting a round ball into a basket. This is the same guy saying he’s taking a stand for the other public employees who have a vaccine mandate — funny how he doesn’t care at all about them now that the mandate doesn’t apply to him anymore. And then to imply that he gets to make big-picture franchise decisions with KD and Tsai and Marks — I am surprised Tsai didn’t cut him on the spot.

    61. Every athlete at this level is a narcissist, Frank.

      I’mma give this up bc it’s obvious everyone hates me for doing this.

      But I’ll tell you why I believe Kyrie is different: he treats basketball like a job he doesn’t like that much.

      That is the cardinal sin of an athlete. On some low frequency you may not even be aware of, that triggers near-unanimous contempt unlike anything else. Even a vile dog-fighting ring is more forgivable.

      And that contempt is massive market for a sports-media machine that thrives on stoking emotion to tap into, so it never stops. Everything after that is confirmation bias. People hate Kyrie, so they want to hear stories about Kyrie sucks, the media gives it to them, everyone agrees that they hate him, repeat cycle until we’ve reached the point where Kyrie is literally the root of evil.

    62. It’s bad enough real supposed ” experts” don’t agree on a lot of things (and they don’t), imo we should stop turning athletes, actors, musicians and other celebrities, etc… into influencers. It should be the other way around. The message we should be sending is that these people are experts at what they do, but that doesn’t make them experts at everything, even when we agree with them or they are promoting something important to ourselves. A lot of the time they are misinformed, have an incomplete understanding, haven’t been exposed to all sides of a debate etc.. We should encourage people to defer to experts on both sides of every debate and decide.

    63. Hubert: Yes, very scary. Kyrie has killed so many.

      How do you explain the NFL to your students? And not just the vile acts of violence they watch, but the fact that over 75% own guns and quite a few of them have committed murder or suicide with them?

      Oh, but Kyrie. What a killer.

      It’s a bit more complicated and nuanced than this. I do not like Chapman or Josh Donaldson ( or Germain for that matter), but there appears to be a distinction between Judge* and Irving in terms of how they present their positions for public consumption. Irving uses his fame and media access as much more of a bully pulpit and in that sense attempts to proselytize his fans to his worldview. I don’t view Kyrie as a killer- more of a solipsistic asshole who happens to be a very good basketball player. He is also an awful teammate.
      * Paul O’Neil whose son is an MD also chose to not get vaxxed.

    64. Really – it’s the bad faith stuff that really gets me riled up about Kyrie – he makes it about the public workers when it’s obviously not – it’s just him being an asshole and wanting to be sanctimonious about it. It’s him disappearing from the team the season before for “personal reasons”, “overcome with emotion about whatever social injustice”, then being recorded partying. He has zero shame – probably tied with Trump for the most narcissistic person in the public eye.

    65. Ian Begley: In addition to talking to SAC, Knicks have touched base with Detroit about potential move up in 2022 draft

      We can’t say they didn’t work the phones.

    66. Hubert: But I’ll tell you why I believe Kyrie is different: he treats basketball like a job he doesn’t like that much.

      That is not it. It is his totally bad faith, completely narcissistic attitude.
      I thought Randle hated his job last year. I want him traded from the Knicks but I don’t dislike him personally.
      And not all professional athletes are narcissists, at least not to this extent. It’s just not true.

      It’s probably not all his fault. He’s been enabled by people every step of the way in his life. But not everyone who was treated the same way turns out like him.

    67. My objection to Kyrie isn’t moral, it’s aesthetic. Kyrie is obnoxious. I don’t enjoy hearing or watching him be obnoxious.

    68. Don’t look at me when it comes to Kyrie. Back in the days when Kemba had two functional knees and could move I argued I’d rather have Kemba than Kyrie. Part of the reason was all the downsides that have since become more apparent. In fact, I’d still rather have Kemba. The weight of the reasons has just changed a little. :-)

    69. Well, it’s that and he unwittingly tapped into the deep emotions of the red vs blue polarization vis a vis his vaccine stance. Either way, I don’t think many of people are viewing this through wise mind. Too much emotion.

      If this does come to pass (and it wouldn’t surprise me if it does because Brooklyn seems too smart to give him that max and we don’t seem smart enough to pass on it), I hope I’m not the only one here because I love you guys even though I sometimes hijack a thread. Sorry about that.

    70. Hubert,

      I’m not a fan of Kyrie and am convinced it’s all nonsense anyway, but if he becomes a Knick I’ll still be here. Some of you may think that’s a bad thing. :-)

    71. I will always root for The Knicks…even if Kyrie Iriving plays for them. But I doubt this will happen. If for no other reason, as was noted by someone else, Dolan is petty AF. He may want a star on the Knicks but I don’t think he would want us trading for a guy who screwed us over a few seasons ago and then signed with our cross town rivals.

    72. This might be the Knick PTSD talking, but I think there’s a tier drop that literally starts at pick 11. But on the other hand, it seems as if at least one team will take a wild card above us (Dieng? Williams?), so a pretty good player could drop to 11. I assume we will wait to see.

    73. If it were just the flat earth stuff, I’d still not want him here if that helps separate the politics for you.

      And wise mind is supposed to help you find logical solutions for when your emotions are inflamed. If watching Kyrie inflames your emotions, not watching him is a logical solution that wise mind would recommend.

    74. not to keep going on and on about this, but this is really not a pro- or anti-vaccine stance. This is about him gaslighting people by saying it’s about public worker mandates and not because he’s just anti-vax. It’s about him always pretending to be the white knight when he’s just a selfish prick. And at the exact same time, smugly saying that someone will always make an exception for him because he’s a famous basketball player. You are both-sidesing this thing when it is far more specific just to Kyrie himself.

      (You are right though – I hate Kyrie Irving with the heat of a thousand suns – he just embodies literally every bad quality I try to avoid in people in my life, other than admittedly being amazing at offensive basketball).

    75. there appears to be a distinction between Judge* and Irving in terms of how they present their positions for public consumption.

      I think Aaron Judge was pretty lucky his day of reckoning came as late as it did. He never had to answer any questions not being able to play at Yankee Stadium like Kyrie did. Ironically, he didn’t have to because Kyrie managed to remediate it before it became an issue for the Mets or Yankees.

      Irving uses his fame and media access as much more of a bully pulpit and in that sense attempts to proselytize his fans to his worldview

      Kyrie spoke about his stance one time before the season. And I’ll grant you he sounded like an idiot when he did. But he just explained himself once and he wasn’t trying to make converts.

      Then the media that kept it in the news cycle for so long. And we conflated “constantly hearing about Kyrie” with “Kyrie constantly talking about it.”

    76. Maybe it’s not him, maybe it’s the media. Either way, I’ll have to hear about it if I follow the Knicks.

      End of the day I’ll probably still be here, I’d just rather get literally any other star who won’t bring the circus.

    77. I don’t want Kyrie here for basketball reasons. Odds are very high that he is going to end up as a $50M AAV albatross and a living breathing LOLKnicks meme.

      It’s so guaranteed to fail spectacularly that there is a masochistic part of me that almost wants it to happen. Because we all know it would be endlessly hilarious. It’s kind of back to that “you have to appreciate the Knicks as farce” kind of thing. There would be lots of laughs. That’s the level on which I’d follow the Kyrie Irving Knicks— the same way you follow an Inspector Clouseau movie or an episode of Three’s Company.

    78. “When I was out for those seven weeks and not saying anything and still people are still saying things about me. It’s inevitable. They crucified Martin Luther King for speaking about peace and social integration.“ Kyrie Irving, on being a pariah of the anti-vaccine movement

    79. “Holmgren, who has only worked out for Orlando and the Thunder, seems comfortable with the idea of being selected here. OKC's rebuild has been viewed favorably by players and agents thanks to the Thunder's strong player-development & organizational culture” – Givony (ESPN)— TF (@ThunderFocus) June 21, 2022

      I was told that if you rebuild through the draft, players inevitably want nothing to do with you and instead will be lining up to play alongside Alec Burks.

    80. I won’t waste the keystrokes as long as it’s in the wild rumor stage. But should it come to pass I believe there would be reasons to be optimistic.

      Me, 500,000 keystrokes ago.

      My bad.

      If we do trade for Kyrie and y’all need some help converting, let me know. Til then I’ll stand down.

    81. And wise mind is supposed to help you find logical solutions for when your emotions are inflamed. If watching Kyrie inflames your emotions, not watching him is a logical solution that wise mind would recommend.

      Nah, that’s logical mind :)

      In wise mind, you observe yourself experiencing emotions and if you’re skilled enough you can regulate them. Like when Thích Qu?ng ??c self immolated without batting an eye.

    82. Hubert: Nah, that’s logical mind :)

      In wise mind, you observe yourself experiencing emotions and if you’re skilled enough you can regulate them. Like when Thích Qu?ng ??c self immolated without batting an eye.

      Turning off the Knicks is regulating your emotions. Just ask Donnie Walsh.

    83. Judge getting vaccinated was still a story until the first trip to Toronto. Same with Rizzo. Once the entire team was allowed to play at Toronto it was obvious they were all vaccinated and the story was over.

    84. “NBATradeReport
      @NBATradeReport
      #Sources — The Hawks are expected to waive Danilo Gallinari to reduce their payroll by $16M. #NBA”

      I can’t vouch for this source, but I say trade Randle and bring Gallo home.

    85. thenoblefacehumper: I was told that if you rebuild through the draft, players inevitably want nothing to do with you and instead will be lining up to play alongside Alec Burks.

      That would be top tier veterans. not rookies who want playing time and development right away.

    86. cybersoze:

      The Caleb Swanigan story is heart wrenching. Apparently was homeless for a time as a kid, struggled a lot with weight issues but eventually cut it before the NBA. He literally lived under a bridge for a time.

    87. >>>>NBATradeReport
      @NBATradeReport

      #Sources — Suns could trade Cameron Johnson to the Pelicans for the No. 8 overall pick, clearing the way for Phoenix to offer Deandre Ayton more money. #NBA<<<

      Cameron Johnson may be in play??? If there's a will, there's a way. This might be something that makes a lot of sense.

    88. “When I was out for those seven weeks and not saying anything and still people are still saying things about me. It’s inevitable. They crucified Martin Luther King for speaking about peace and social integration.“ Kyrie Irving, on being a pariah of the anti-vaccine movement

      Ah, thank you so much Jowles! You have provided me with the absolute perfect example to support my thesis.

      Kyrie actually said this in January of 2020 (i.e. pre covid). He had been injured for 7 weeks, and people in the media (mostly the Celtic media, like that idiot Kendrick Perkins) spread rumors that he had faked his injury because he was scared to play in Boston.

      He was asked how it felt to be the subject of so much negative talk in the media. And furthermore, he was asked this during MLK weekend. Within proper context, what he said was “it doesn’t bother me. They talk shit about everyone. They even talked shit about the man we’re all celebrating.”

      It was actually a very thoughtful and mature comment. But because you have deep feelings about Kyrie, your brain performed mental gymnastics and it created a false memory in which he gratuitously compared his anti-vax position to Martin Luther King. And this false memory served as a baseline to intensify your emotions the next time something that should have been innocuous occured.

      OK now I am done. I promise.

    89. If Kyrie opted out and was like I love living in NY and I want to rebuild my image so I’ll play for the Knicks for 2/40 I would absolutely take that chance, but Kyrie is going to want John Wall money

    90. DRed:
      John Wall decided he would like to be paid 47 million next season

      $47M lines up quite nicely with Randle, Kemba, & Noel’s salary.

    91. Deeefense!!: That would be top tier veterans. not rookies who want playing time and development right away.

      Well the good news is we’ve attracted a lot of top tier veterans by avoiding rebuilding through the draft. The last 20 years of Knicks basketball are just chock full of examples of top tier veterans signing with us.

    92. $47M lines up quite nicely with Randle, Kemba, & Noel’s salary.

      i was kind of thinking the same thing, if we want to move on from julius, maybe bring in john wall…he got to rest all last year – much much better situation for the team than having kyrie on the roster…

    93. thenoblefacehumper: Well the good news is we’ve attracted a lot of top tier veterans by avoiding rebuilding through the draft. The last 20 years of Knicks basketball are just chock full of examples of top tier veterans signing with us.

      What about Kyrie? Hubert thinks it’s a done deal. :D

    94. Early Bird: $47M lines up quite nicely with Randle, Kemba, & Noel’s salary.

      I’m pretty sure the Rockets don’t want Randle’s contract.

    95. cybersoze: I’m pretty sure the Rockets don’t want Randle’s contract.

      Yeah, there’s basically zero chance this happens. They moved Wood because they have Garuba, Sengun, and likely one of Paolo, Jabari, or Chet.

      But we can dream…

    96. DRed: John Wall decided he would like to be paid 47 million next season

      It was a tough call, but I think he made the right one.

    97. “Vecenie’s draft guide just dropped for my other draftniks”

      Yeah, he’s also really high on Sochan. I guess Griffin at 11 isn’t bad if we don’t move up for Ivey.

    98. Dumping guys to create cap space, sign a notable free agent with that cap space while keeping Mitch’s miniscule cap hold on the books and then going over the cap to resign Mitch is just so darn obviously a good idea that I am thrilled that it seems like that that is the plan by Rose. I am daring to hope, people! That could be bad, as when I get hopeful about the Knicks, they tend to mess with me, but darnit, I’m still hopeful!

    99. Hi Folks,
      The thing about Kyrie is that he didn’t get vaccinated for his team (and his fellow humans) It’s a really dumb stance. If Franklin D Roosevelt’s mom had had access to the polio shot… These things are modern miracles. They talk about running through a wall for your coach. This is the mirror opposite of Reed in ’73. I understand the appeal of a guy to play PG for us who can get a fucking layup in traffic, but this is Faustian. I mean, well done Hubert, but in my very humble opinion Kyrie is indeed loathsome.

      As to what we should do, fuck it. Draft at 11. Maybe you get a steal. It’s happened. I’d do Randle for Brogden straight up. That’d make room for Obi and RJ to roam free. I’d almost be willing to pull the trigger on deals for them but they’re still cheap for another year or two, right? They haven’t earned extensions yet, IMHO, but it’d be nice to see if they can take steps.

    100. My wife scheduled a dinner during the draft and I am kind of pissed about it. Such a fun night. And the suits!!!

      I do think a statistical study of how well dressed draftees are and how well they perform in the league would be interesting. Like when Tyler Herro got drafted and had just the most swaggy outfit. I feel like it’s as good a signal as a 3om3 workout, at a minimum.

      I don’t hate Kyrie. I think he is a bit of a loon and I don’t want him on the Knicks.

    101. I really haven’t done a deep dive into the prospects available, but I get the sense we had more talent to choose from at 19 last year than we will at 11 this year.

    102. Kyrie thinks Microchips are in the vaccine so thats a lot worse than the standard anti Vaxx stance.

      Sochan seems like a real Spursy type player so hopefully they end up choosing him and someone else drops.

    103. “The Hornets are looking to trade one of their two first-round picks alongside Gordon Hayward to clear cap space for retaining Miles Bridges, per @WindhorstESPN.”

      They were interested in Hayward before the Hornets overpaid. Take Hayward’s contract for 2 years and get a pick. They’d have to make some moves, but this sounds like something they’d consider.

    104. thenoblefacehumper: Well the good news is we’ve attracted a lot of top tier veterans by avoiding rebuilding through the draft. The last 20 years of Knicks basketball are just chock full of examples of top tier veterans signing with us.

      You have to let it go.

      When you have a ton of cap space, you have to put something into it. If the type of players you want are not available that year (or because you suck as is always the case with the Knicks), the idea is to retain flexibility so you have another chance soon. If you do that well, some of them might even be positive assets later (like Morris). You could of course get a pick to take on a bad contract instead, but you have to find a deal like that and feel that you are getting compensated enough for the lost flexibility to take on a negative asset longer contract. I’m OK with either.

      There are rumors of Hayward plus a pick to the Knicks. That could make sense if the Knicks can clear enough cap space without giving up much and come out of it with more pick power than they started with.

    105. @esidery
      The Hornets are looking to trade one of their two first-round picks alongside Gordon Hayward to clear cap space for retaining Miles Bridges, per @WindhorstESPN
      .

      edit: I see Strat posted it above

    106. Not sure how much they want to save, but we can only save them about $5.7M for the coming year before the pick salary.

      We could do Kemba, Noel, & Burks. They all potentially expire and would save $30M for next year.

      We could also look for 3rd teams to just absorb players into TPEs.

    107. Kyrie’s an idiot. Lots of those around, but he’s a super-narcissistic one, and super loud, and thus as danvt so accurately pegged him, he’s loathsome.

      He lost me on the earth’s flat. Why would anyone ever, ever say that out loud?

      Supernova hard no on him on the Knicks. Playing for my most hated players team? Absolutely the starting point guard (Grayson Allen as his backcourt partner in crimes…).

    108. Hubert, I would have said some words in your support earlier, but it was night time here and I was asleep. It’s not that I think Kyrie is a great guy, far from it. I just think many many pro players have character flaws or worse, but it’s just not as out in the open as it is with Kyrie. So for me it’s a matter of price. At least Kyrie keeps himself in shape and looks like he’s trying on the court. I hate the stuff about the vaccinations but what’s important is are the other Knicks going to mesh with him. My guess is they will. So then it mostly a matter of price.

      At his age I don’t want a huge long term contract. But an expiring contract would be fine for me if the trade cost was cheap enough. I don’t think that sort of deal will happen though, so I’m expecting everyone on this board to be satisfied with our Kyrie outcome.

    109. Hayward plus a pick seems fine – dude should help our offense some even if he’s washed.

    110. Knick fan not in NJ: I just think many many pro players have character flaws or worse, but it’s just not as out in the open as it is with Kyrie.

      That’s part of what makes him so loathsome.

    111. @Mavs_FFL
      Report: Jalen Brunson has told former and current teammates that his return to Dallas is essentially a done deal.

      #MFFL via @JakeLFischer

    112. KevinR:
      @Mavs_FFL
      Report: Jalen Brunson has told former and current teammates that his return to Dallas is essentially a done deal.

      #MFFL via @JakeLFischer

      It’s the same story every year with potential free agent acquisitions. If they are worth something their team often ends up re-signing them despite all the free agency speculation and smoke. It might happen with Kyrie too. And for that matter it could happen with Mitch. Raul Neto, here we come

    113. [quote]Also I will reiterate that I’m just not seeing what others are seeing in Ivey. He was definitely one of the more fun players to watch this year and I think he’s a pretty good prospect, but compare his numbers to, say, Mathurin’s. Why is one a potential superstar while the other is largely regarded as a “high floor” type?

      Ivey’s athleticism is a genuine outlier trait so I won’t be floored if he turns out to be really good, but this is just not a can’t miss guy. His statistical comps when you account for age don’t exactly jump off the page.[/quote]

      this is the most outrageous thing anyone said in this thread noble and i’m tempted to write 10,000 words about it… but the straight answer is that ivey creates his own shot vs just being a catch and shoot guy that mathurin is…. and the dude that’s going to get to the line a ton and bends defenses is generally a better bet to succeed than someone who’s highly dependent on others getting him looks…

      i don’t even have them too far away from each other.. ivey is at 2 and mathurin 4… but you have to pick guys like ivey over the mathurin’s every time…. unless ivey was more like cam thomas or something… but he’s not.. he’s much much better….

      ivey is probably not a pg .. and not even the westbrook kind of pg… but he doesn’t really need to be with his talents… he is an absolutely electric scorer and force of nature… and while he’s not a cant miss guy that morant was… in this draft he might as well be dwayne wade… he’s very good and absolutely worth multiple firsts especially if one of them is a the #11 pick that will likely get incinerated one way or another anyway…

      and i’ve been waiting very patiently on your big board unless i somehow missed that… so let’s get to that ok?

    114. djphan: this is the most outrageous thing anyone said in this thread noble and i’m tempted to write 10,000 words about it… but the straight answer is that ivey creates his own shot vs just being a catch and shoot guy that mathurin is…. and the dude that’s going to get to the line a ton and bends defenses is generally a better bet to succeed than someone who’s highly dependent on others getting him looks…

      Maybe my post didn’t make it clear, but I have Ivey ranked ahead of Mahturin (4th and 5th in my case as of now, but might have Ivey 3rd when it’s all said and done…within the next 45 hours or so).

      My only point was the statistical difference between the two doesn’t justify treating one as a budding superstar worth, say, 11/2023 NYK/2023 DAL/Grimes/IQ and the other as a guy with an outside shot at falling to us at 11.

      It actually doesn’t sound like we disagree all that much about Ivey’s projection. Assuming he gets drafted after Jabari Smith, I might have him ranked higher than he gets drafted! I just don’t think you can treat this as akin to trading up for someone who actually can’t miss, Ivey has his red flags just like everyone else in this draft.

      djphan: and i’ve been waiting very patiently on your big board unless i somehow missed that… so let’s get to that ok?

      Almost done! Taking my sweet time to iron out some things because there are a lot of close calls in this draft IMO. This is especially the case when you’re not particularly enamored with Jabari Smith.

    115. Also, good to have you back, even if your hiatus-ending post was saying I said the most outrageous thing in a 120+ post thread.

    116. djphan: this is the most outrageous thing anyone said in this thread noble

      And here i was, thinking my trade ideas were the most outrageous of this thread. LOL
      Welcome back, DJ.

    117. So for anybody who cares, I am leaving Discograffiti. Let’s just say it was over, um, creative differences.

    118. How many of the people upset with Kyrie over the vax are also upset with Governor Grandma-Killer Andrew Cuomo?

      Mike

    119. ***I’m sorry I have to explain this to a bunch of really smart people, but your arguments are not logical because they’re coming from emotion mind.***

      Wait what?? You are visiting a knicks fan blog here. There is no logical reason for anybody to be here. The sheer existence of this community is a product of emotion mind.

    120. ***So for anybody who cares, I am leaving Discograffiti. Let’s just say it was over, um, creative differences.***

      Wait, what!!??? I don’t see how this could be.

      Did some Spotify suit come in and say you needed to do a Very Special Bruce Hornsby episode?

    121. NOOOOOOOO!!!!

      You haven’t done Def Leppard yet!

      (Sorry to hear it)

      DJPhan, welcome back!!!!

    122. Welcome back, djphan!!

      You’re going to have to re-rank noble’s comment now that MBunge has joined the thread.

    123. Does Dave’s girlfriend insist on dressing you guys up as your zodiac signs going forward?

    124. JK47:
      So for anybody who cares, I am leaving Discograffiti. Let’s just say it was over, um, creative differences.

      Sorry to hear, JK.

    125. JK47:
      So for anybody who cares, I am leaving Discograffiti. Let’s just say it was over, um, creative differences.

      Sorry to hear it didn’t work out. Always sucks when it gets to that point.

    126. JK47:
      So for anybody who cares, I am leaving Discograffiti. Let’s just say it was over, um, creative differences.

      Sorry to hear that. Was it by chance over an impending Loverboy episode?

      I’m not a Yankees fan, I never voted for Cuomo, and I never wanted Derrick Rose to be a Knick. So I guess I’m not a hypocrite for not liking or wanting Kyrie Irving on the Knicks. Whew!

    127. Donnie Walsh:
      ***I’m sorry I have to explain this to a bunch of really smart people, but your arguments are not logical because they’re coming from emotion mind.***

      Wait what?? You are visiting a knicks fan blog here. There is no logical reason for anybody to be here. The sheer existence of this community is a product of emotion mind.

      Haha

    128. Sorry to hear about you leaving DiscoGraffiti, JK. I hope this won’t mess with your friendship with Dave. If you decide to start DiscoJK, i’ll keep patiently waiting for The Ramones and The Clash episodes.

    129. JK, I guess condolences are in order, but maybe it’s for the best. Sometimes things work out that way.

    130. I think Ivey is gonna be a major star in this league and would definitely give up assets for him. The question is, how much is too much? Also, how long will you need to wait?

      The Knicks are in an awkward position right now. The only asset they really have to burn is the Dallas pick. After that, it’s like one definite step back for potentially two steps forward.

      I’d be hard pressed to include IQ in a deal. He really showed something special at the end of last year. If that’s what it took, I’d stil probably do it, but it would be very, very hard.

      With Obi it’s more of an emotional attachment, but I’d includ him before I included IQ.

      I don’t see anything super-special in Grimes. Love him, but if that’s the cost of doing business, so be it. Same with Deuce.

      RJ isn’t going anywhere, so why bother discussing it?

      So the #11, one of IQ or Obi, Grimes, the DAL pick, a non-2023 first and a second is about as far as I’d go.

    131. The thing that would give me the most pause about an Ivey deal is that I always worry about guys whose athleticism is so integral to their success. Ivey is a lot like Derrick Rose in that regard. There’s always that ACL waiting to happen. Then you have a diminished version and you have blown your asset wad.

      But barring that, he seems like the real deal.

    132. That seems like a lot to me. I assume you are thinking of trading up to #4, not hoping Ivey falls to #7. Sacramento has point guards, but they need defense. I think Burks would be good for them and Grimes too. So Burks, Grimes, #11 and the Dallas pick seems enough to me. If they want offense instead of defense, maybe trade Fournier instead of Burks and Grimes. But since we have to take salary back, that might be hard to do.

    133. I think Ivey will hit, as well, but yeah, it’s tough when he’s not nearly as sure of a thing as, say, Luka, so to hear that the Knicks have offered multiple first round picks for Ivey, I sure hope that those picks have lots of protections on them.

    134. That seems like a lot to me. I assume you are thinking of trading up to #4, not hoping Ivey falls to #7. Sacramento has point guards, but they need defense. I think Burks would be good for them and Grimes too. So Burks, Grimes, #11 and the Dallas pick seems enough to me. If they want offense instead of defense, maybe trade Fournier instead of Burks and Grimes. But since we have to take salary back, that might be hard to do.

      Yeah, the rumored offer is multiple firsts for the #4 pick, and I doubt we’re talking just #11 and the Dallas pick.

    135. Brian Cronin: Yeah, the rumored offer is multiple firsts for the #4 pick, and I doubt we’re talking just #11 and the Dallas pick.

      If we give multiple firsts then we presumably aren’t also giving useful players. I put in the players in my proposal because my impression is that Sacramento wants to contend now. Consider the Haliburton trade. I think getting Ivey could be considered similar in value to getting Haliburton. Sacramento got a good player in return (Sabonis) and the rest of the deal was probably similar value for each team designed to make salaries work. Sabonis was probably worth two first round picks but not two first round picks and another good player. If we give them two first rounders for Ivey, that’s ok with me, but then I’d like to keep Grimes.

    136. Here again is the main issue: do you trust the Knicks FO to properly value draft assets or not? They have far more intel on Ivey and the other guys than we do (certainly me), and spend countless hours crunching numbers about every draft asset. Given that hindsight suggests they have found excellent picks at their respective spots who have outperformed what most analysts (including KB analysts) thought at draft time, I’m willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. I also don’t hold their trade-outs in the last 2 years against them.

      Just to clarify, if they trade a package centered around Obi, the #11 and two additional top-10 protected firsts, I would be okay with it but not thrilled, that’s a lot to give up for potential. More than that and I’d be down on the deal. Less than that and I’d be pretty excited.

      Ultimately I don’t think it will happen. As Wasserman said on KFS, the Kings will likely either make the pick, or wil trade it for more of a win-now deal. ATL seems hot to move up and they can offer Collins, who is a better fit next to Sabonis than, say, Julius.

    137. Yeah, if Sacramento wants win now players ( which they probably do) it’s hard to see what we offer them. They already have Sabonis, so Obi (or Randle) doesn’t fit well. I think Robinson is good but he’s not surplus for us and our other player’s probably don’t move Sacramento’s needle enough. I actually think Grimes and Burks will help them, so I proposed a trade with them, but I don’t think they will think enough of those two.

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