Knicks Morning News (2022.06.17)

  • Quentin Grimes Biomechanics: More Than a 3-And-D – The Knicks Wall
    [theknickswall.com] — Friday, June 17, 2022 7:08:04 AM

    Quentin Grimes Biomechanics: More Than a 3-And-D  The Knicks Wall

  • Golden State Warriors installed as early NBA title favorites for next season; Celtics, Nets next – ESPN
    [www.espn.com] — Thursday, June 16, 2022 11:28:41 PM

    Golden State Warriors installed as early NBA title favorites for next season; Celtics, Nets next  ESPN

  • Knicks Notes: Ivey, Mitchell, Arms, Brunson – hoopsrumors.com
    [www.hoopsrumors.com] — Thursday, June 16, 2022 8:36:00 PM

    Knicks Notes: Ivey, Mitchell, Arms, Brunson  hoopsrumors.com

  • Ochai Agbaji provides Knicks unique NBA draft option to complement RJ Barrett – New York Post
    [nypost.com] — Thursday, June 16, 2022 8:12:00 PM

    Ochai Agbaji provides Knicks unique NBA draft option to complement RJ Barrett  New York Post

  • 3 Mitchell Robinson replacements Knicks could pursue this summer – Daily Knicks
    [dailyknicks.com] — Thursday, June 16, 2022 8:00:00 PM

    3 Mitchell Robinson replacements Knicks could pursue this summer  Daily KnicksKnicks Rumors: Mitchell Robinson Not Expected to Interest Mavericks; Bulls Linked  Bleacher ReportBulls could be Knicks’ top Mitchell Robinson competition in free agency  New York Post Report: Bulls Top Threat to Sign Mitchell Robinson Away From Knicks in Free Agency  Sports IllustratedBulls Could be the Knicks’ “Main Competitors” for Big Man Mitchell Robinson  bleachernation.comView Full Coverage on Google News

  • This Knicks-Heat Trade Sends Tyler Herro To New York – NBA Analysis Network
    [nbaanalysis.net] — Thursday, June 16, 2022 6:48:15 PM

    This Knicks-Heat Trade Sends Tyler Herro To New York  NBA Analysis Network

  • 3 NBA Head Coaches Already On The Hot Seat For 2022 – The Cold Wire
    [www.thecoldwire.com] — Thursday, June 16, 2022 6:33:01 PM

    3 NBA Head Coaches Already On The Hot Seat For 2022  The Cold Wire

  • ESPN: Shaedon Sharpe’s camp has a preferred destination in NBA draft – USA TODAY High School Sports
    [usatodayhss.com] — Thursday, June 16, 2022 5:21:58 PM

    ESPN: Shaedon Sharpe’s camp has a preferred destination in NBA draft  USA TODAY High School Sports

  • NCAA Tourney hero says getting drafted by Knicks would be “a dream come true” – OCRegister
    [www.ocregister.com] — Thursday, June 16, 2022 5:16:54 PM

    NCAA Tourney hero says getting drafted by Knicks would be “a dream come true”  OCRegister

  • Donovan Mitchell laughs it up with Mets amid Knicks intrigue – New York Post
    [nypost.com] — Thursday, June 16, 2022 5:07:00 PM

    Donovan Mitchell laughs it up with Mets amid Knicks intrigue  New York Post

  • Mark Jackson’s Biography: With All Due Respect, Fadeaway World Presents The Story Of One Of The Most Entertaining NBA Announcers – Fadeaway World
    [fadeawayworld.net] — Thursday, June 16, 2022 4:34:33 PM

    Mark Jackson’s Biography: With All Due Respect, Fadeaway World Presents The Story Of One Of The Most Entertaining NBA Announcers  Fadeaway World

  • 2022 NBA Draft 2022: Odds and predictions for the New York Knicks’ selection – SILive.com
    [www.silive.com] — Thursday, June 16, 2022 3:19:00 PM

    2022 NBA Draft 2022: Odds and predictions for the New York Knicks’ selection  SILive.com

  • NBA Draft Media Roundup: Do the Knicks have eyes for Jaden Ivey? – Posting and Toasting
    [www.postingandtoasting.com] — Thursday, June 16, 2022 12:41:16 PM

    NBA Draft Media Roundup: Do the Knicks have eyes for Jaden Ivey?  Posting and Toasting

  • Jake Fischer on the Knicks: I do think that’s a legitimate landing spot (for Malcolm Brogdon). There? – Hoops Hype
    [hoopshype.com] — Thursday, June 16, 2022 11:32:13 AM

    Jake Fischer on the Knicks: I do think that’s a legitimate landing spot (for Malcolm Brogdon). There?  Hoops Hype

  • Knicks Youngster Impresses in Viral Offseason Run Footage – Heavy.com
    [heavy.com] — Thursday, June 16, 2022 10:41:28 AM

    Knicks Youngster Impresses in Viral Offseason Run Footage  Heavy.com

  • Knicks’ Ideal 2022 NBA Mock Draft – Bleacher Report
    [bleacherreport.com] — Thursday, June 16, 2022 9:39:11 AM

    Knicks’ Ideal 2022 NBA Mock Draft  Bleacher Report

  • Highest point-scorers in New York Knicks history – KPVI News 6
    [www.kpvi.com] — Thursday, June 16, 2022 9:01:13 AM

    Highest point-scorers in New York Knicks history  KPVI News 6

  • Jalen Brunson has what it takes to lead the Knicks. Just ask Kyle Neptune, the college coach who’s seen it since Day 1 – New York Post
    [nypost.com] — Thursday, June 16, 2022 8:20:00 AM

    Jalen Brunson has what it takes to lead the Knicks. Just ask Kyle Neptune, the college coach who’s seen it since Day 1  New York Post

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    145 thoughts to “Knicks Morning News (2022.06.17)”

    1. Happy for Steph, happy for Kerr, happy for the Warriors, and happy that the Boston fanbase doesn’t get to celebrate another freaking championship this century. But because I’m a masochist, Steph’s ascension to godhood naturally sent me down the Jordan Hill rabbit hole, and now I’m depressed again.

    2. The Agbaji chatter is making me a little nervous. But the link above with the DraftKings odds says otherwise.

      The players with odds at +1000 and better to be selected by New York include:
      – A.J. Griffin +500
      – Jalen Duren +650
      – Johnny Davis +750
      – Jeremy Sochan +800
      – Jaden Ivey +800
      – Mark Williams +800
      – Ousmane Dieng +1000

    3. Alan:
      Happy for Steph, happy for Kerr, happy for the Warriors, and happy that the Boston fanbase doesn’t get to celebrate another freaking championship this century. But because I’m a masochist, Steph’s ascension to godhood naturally sent me down the Jordan Hill rabbit hole, and now I’m depressed again.

      We missed by little both Steph and Kerr.

    4. Re: the Celtics – I think there’s an assumption (particularly by Boston fans) that progress is linear and it’s just a matter of time before Tatum and Brown “figure it out” and lead them to a championship.

      As TNFH pointed out in the last thread, the league is stacked with talent and great teams on the rise. The Heat and the Suns both made Finals in the last 3 years and may not be back for a long time.

      The Warriors won 4 titles in the last 8 years because they have an otherworldly talent in Curry and also picked up a guy named Durant along the way. The Celtics are a long way from having that level of talent.

    5. Alan: Strange that Branham’s not on that list at all.

      Looks like the list is wrong. I went to DraftKings directly and they have Branham 2nd.
      Griffin +500
      Branham + 600
      Davis +650
      Duren +650
      Ivey +800
      Sochan +1100
      Dieng +1100

    6. If we stay at 11, I guess I like Branham. Griffin would be ok but he’s just lost so much vertical pop since high school.

      But in this draft, it would probably be better to trade down and take two shots instead of one.

    7. Anyone who seriously believes that Steph Curry is (1) a Top-5 player, all time; and (2) is displaying a skillset never before seen in the NBA is either too young to have never watched Pete Maravich play or too unimaginative to appreciate what he would have accomplished had he not played in the NBA prior to the advent of the 3-point shot.

      Pistol Pete was every bit Steph’s equal as a deadeye marksman from improbably long range. I’m too lazy to bother googling it now, but I once recall reading that had it happened in the 3-point era, Maravich’s shot chart would have resulted in his averaging over 10(!) 3s + <50 pts/game!

    8. I’m wary of any cross-era comparisons, Count, simply because the quality of training has gotten so much better with each passing decade. Obviously, if Pistol Pete was born 40 years later, he’d have access to the same health and fitness things that Curry has had, and perhaps he would be strong and quick enough against modern NBA athletes to still do all the things he did in the 70s. But I tend to side with the Adam Ottavino “I would strike out Babe Ruth every time I faced him” argument, especially if we’re talking about just plucking a superstar of yesteryear from his prime and time traveling him forward to today.

    9. So let’s see here. The Warriors feature:

      * A top 10 all time future Hall of Famer who was picked one spot ahead of where we landed in the draft.

      * A coach who turned us down at the last second because he didn’t want to be beholden to Big Chief Triangle’s rigid offensive philosophy

      * A shooting guard who is not what he was at his Splash Brothers peak, but can still defend really well, whom we desperately wanted to trade up for 11 years ago, but didn’t have the ammunition to do so, and instead wound up with a future Dancing with the Stars champ

      * [Alan looks for some way to blame the Knicks for also not acquiring Draymond, but no way would we have used the 16th pick — which went to Houston as part of the Jared Jeffries salary dump trade — on him, and our own second rounder, used on the immortal Kostas Papanikolaou, was 13 spots after the Warriors took Draymond.]

      Excuse me. Crying now.

    10. Hey, at least we aren’t Minnesota, which took two OTHER point guards BEFORE Steph Curry.

      KAAAAAAAAAHHHHHNNNNNN!!!!!

    11. ess-dog: But in this draft, it would probably be better to trade down and take two shots instead of one.

      I’m not sure about that, the talent level seems to drop significantly outside the lottery.

    12. Yeah, I’d be more excited about trading down if it netted us future draft assets, rather than two bites at what seems like a pretty measly apple.

    13. Owen: Belinda Carlisle was Jennifer Connelly level in the mid eighties.

      And what song does John Richards (KEXP) decides to play today? Vacation by The Go-Go’s. There are times when i think all things in the world are connected. :D

    14. Heaven Is a Place on Earth gets bonus points for being among the most perfect TV soundtrack choices I’ve ever heard, as the closing tune of the best Black Mirror episode, “San Junipero.”

    15. Hubert, you probably were born in 78. I actually think an interesting podcast idea would be to map people’s experiences based on the year they were born. My first CD was Tiffany for a reason. And I can absolutely chart my awareness of the distaff side of the equation through music videos. Like A Prayer was a very important moment in my life.

      I happen to think 78 was a great year to be born. You kind of catch the bridge between two eras at the perfect age. You get computers and video games and the internet at a good time while still enjoying some of the innocence of the pre-google era. Music and film is good still. You go from rotary phones to the iphone. I don’t know. 1988 has no shot in my book :-)

      I am happy for the Warriors. You can’t not root for Curry and Kerr. I think lists are too hard to make or too subjective or too sensitive to starting criteria. But I do know Curry is a lot better than Pistol Pete, who was slightly below league average for his career in TS%.

      Mikan, Magic, Duncan all have five rings. All were primary stars. I mean, Kareem and Robinson and Leonard are qualifiers but Duncan was amazing and won three titles with wingmen in Parker and Ginobili who don’t exactly have the brand of Pippen and Rodman and had to go through some historically deep conferences.

      Which is not to say that Ginobili was anything less than a top 25 player. Also, better than Kobe. :-)

    16. Alan: Heaven Is a Place on Earth gets bonus points for being among the most perfect TV soundtrack choices I’ve ever heard, as the closing tune of the best Black Mirror episode, “San Junipero.”

      How well does Radiohead’s Codex as the closing tune of Westworld’s season 2 fare in your list? I loved it, but i’m also a big fan of Radiohead and love this tune a lot, so maybe it’s just me.

    17. Also Silent Lucidity by Queensryche at the end of Nine Perfect Strangers. Gave me goosebumps, actually watched the ending twice.

    18. “ A coach who turned us down at the last second because he didn’t want to be beholden to Big Chief Triangle’s rigid offensive philosophy”

      That’s not accurate.

      He didn’t want to coach a shit team that was starting over, with missing picks, and bad contracts in NY, when he could coach an up and coming young playoff team closer to home that offered him more money. The Warrior’s offense is a blend of Phil and Pop.

    19. I know it’s been discussed as nauseam, but Kate Bush’s “Running Up That Hill” was such a perfect finale song for the “Stranger Things” season in so many ways.

      Re: trading down, sure, do it for a 2023 pick or even a young player on the come up… there are a lot of options besides staying at 11.

      That said, Mathurin is a tremendous athlete in the Jaylen Brown mold and could be worth a trade up to 8 or 9. But yes, I do think Agbaji seems very much like a Knicks-type target at 11, so brace yourselves.

    20. I’m not saying Pete was as good as Steph, but Pete’s TS% would have been way higher if he was getting 3 points for all the very long bombs he was taking a lot of anyway. No one else (or at least very few players) could get away with his shot selection in those days. He could and did …a lot. That’s also why his TS% wasn’t much higher than the rest of the league.

    21. cybersoze: How well does Radiohead’s Codex as the closing tune of Westworld’s season 2 fare in your list? I loved it, but i’m also a big fan of Radiohead and love this tune a lot, so maybe it’s just me.

      I mostly really dislike Westworld, so it is hard to separate my feelings for the show from my feelings for the song usage.

    22. I mean, if pigs could fly they would. Pete was a nice player but I prefer guys who actually contributed a lot to winning in their own time.

      Like A Prayer is actually an amazing video for so many reasons beyond the bodice. Way ahead of its time.

      Running up that Hill is an incredible song but not one that I heard in my youth.

    23. “Heaven Is A Place On Earth” is pretty much the K-Mart version of “Livin’ On A Prayer.” Almost identical chord sequence in the hook

    24. Extremely impressive playoff run by the Warriors who really weren’t even pushed outside of the finals and seemed to have the Celtics completely solved over the last couple of games. That level of dominance is pretty surprising for a team that I think most people would pretty easily rate as the weakest of their four title teams. I’m not sure what to make of that exactly but the league is maybe a little lacking in truly top end teams at the moment – if you rank all the modern-era champions I think the 2022 Warriors would be pretty close to the bottom. Next year looks pretty wide open.

    25. I think the Warriors will repeat next year.

      Yeah their OG big three is getting older. But Steph is still at the top of his game. Wiggins I think is a huge upgrade for them (not trying to start something here when I say that, just my opinion). And I think we could see a better version of Klay Thompson next year. He didn’t play BBALL for 2 seasons. I suspect he was still working off the rust even in these playoffs. I also think Steph, Dray and Klay are going to be motivated to repeat without Durant to really cement their legacy as one of the greatest teams ever. And didn’t their core group only play like 7 minutes together before the playoffs?

      I don’t know. Obviously when they were all healthy and had Durant, they were better. But I don’t think this version is weaker than the 2015 team. I think they got another one in them.

      I do agree, though, that the league doesn’t seem to have any truly elite teams right now. Which I think is a good thing in some ways.

    26. The thing the Warriors have in their favor is that they barely even used their three young prospects in these playoffs. If you believe in Kuminga and Moody, and to a lesser extent in Wiseman, then giving them more prominent roles next year could offset age-related decline/injury from the big three. And as streaky as Poole can be, he’s so useful as Fake Steph in the dog days of a season where the genuine article has to rest.

    27. I am sure bettors have an opinion about it but I wonder how much the extended schedule in the playoffs helps veterans and teams stacked with them like the Warriors.

    28. swiftandabundant: Wiggins I think is a huge upgrade for them (not trying to start something here when I say that, just my opinion).

      What do you mean by upgrade? Over Durant? Barnes? Tsunami Papi? (Excuse me, I have to go wash the vomit out of my mouth.)

    29. Do you just breathlessly wait for every comment of mine so you can pounce on the slightest wording or phrasing and roast me to display your superior intellect?

      I’m more in your head than Wiggins was in Tatum’s!

    30. I have nothing but your words to work with, swift. I can’t intuit what you actually meant by “upgrade.” Apparently you meant “warm body” or “basketball player.”

      Andrew Wiggins is an NBA Champion as a starter.

    31. I remember well the game Pistol torched the Knicks (and Clyde). He had immense shooting dribbling and passing talent (remember LaMelo’s underhand full court heave was a Pistol clone). Not sure his mental makeup was strong enough to lead a team to a chip.

    32. First time I heard Running Up That Hill, or Kate Bush in general, was when Big Boi from Outkast said she’s one of his favorite artists and it’s one of his favorite songs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSdHgq3oBD8

      As long as Curry can stay healthy and play at a reasonably high level (he just turned 34), all the Warriors have to do is put a decent team around him and they’ll be in contention. Biggest difference between this year and the year before was dumping Oubre (93 eFG+ and TS+, -1.9 BPM, 1687 minutes) and Bazemore (101 eFG+, 99 TS+, -1.2 BPM, 1333 minutes) and mostly replacing them with Jordan Poole (103 eFG+, 106 TS+, 1 BPM, 2283 minutes), Otto Porter Jr (105 eFG+, 103 TS+, 3.1 BPM, 1396 minutes), and GPII (128 eFG+, 120 TS+, 3.7 BPM, 1247 minutes).

      Just being able to dump massive negatives Oubre and Bazemore and replace them with at least league average players massively improved GSW because of Curry’s greatness. If Poole can take another big step next season or one of their other young players can make a leap (or if they had done the smart thing and drafted LaMelo instead of Wiseman) they’ll be even better next year.

    33. Oh, if you want to see some truly hilarious Oubre takes go to google and search for: Oubre site:knickerblogger.net

      Some great stuff from last year.

    34. One of the beat writers (Popper?) just tweeted that the Knicks did NOT work out Shaedon Sharpe. Unless this is an elaborate smokescreen (esp in light of the fact that Walt Perrin seems to want to work everyone out), I feel like this means the FO is not looking at players that are a couple years away from contributing — ie. no Ousmane Dieng, maybe no Sochan / Eason since those guys are considered projects, no?

      Why do I feel a trade-down for EJ Liddell or Agbaji is in the works (not that that would necessarily be a bad outcome)?

    35. Frank, it may also be any of these possibilities:

      1)Due to all the Kentucky East connections, the FO didn’t feel the need to work him out, combined with…
      2)They are interested in Sharpe but want to hide that interest while they work on a trade;
      3)They understand that Sharpe will not fall to them, and are more interested in other targets (Ivey, Daniels) should they succeed in trading up.

    36. oh my god, it’s like a never ending thing to try and get the middle child to stop picking on the youngest…ugh, it’s exhausting :P

      i don’t think it’s even an age thing, the youngest is sort of self-fulfilled already when it comes to company, the middle child needs a bit more of a continuous: “connection”…

      still in all, family is family…

      okay then, we’re sitting around the table – high stakes show and tell…couple of folks pull out the super syrupy heaven is a place on earth, someone else tries to throw in kate bush’s eerie and desperate running up that hill

      well ladies and gentlemen – i’ll just leave this hear and cash in my chips at the window: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsO3MMJNHZQ

      ya’ll never had a chance…go ahead now, try and find something better…double dare ya…

    37. “Andrew Wiggins is an NBA Champion as a starter.”

      Slight correction.

      Andrew Wiggins is an NBA Champion as the 2nd best all around player on the team in the finals. Tatum didn’t struggle by accident.

    38. i remember well when that song first came out – my sister played the heck out of it whenever we were around each other…incredibly needy sounding, catchy beat, what a timeless line though:

      if i only could, i’d make a deal with god

      yep, there it is, pretty much – all the time, if i ain’t blaming god for something, i’m damn sure trying to work out some kind of deal…

      hmmmm, maybe we should up the stakes a bit – make it a piece of ORIGINAL music used within film or “tv”…

    39. The Warriors certainly can repeat, they were very good all season when they had Steph and Draymond. But idk if I’d make them the favorite. Steph is going to be 34. That Grizzlies series was really close.

    40. A Burks/RJ/Wiggins/Randle/Noel starting lineup next year would, uh, be something

    41. vincoug: Oh, if you want to see some truly hilarious Oubre takes go to google and search for: Oubre site:knickerblogger.net
      Some great stuff from last year.

      I hope i didn’t embarrass myself. LOL

    42. Alan:
      Frank, it may also be any of these possibilities:
      1)Due to all the Kentucky East connections, the FO didn’t feel the need to work him out, combined with…
      2)They are interested in Sharpe but want to hide that interest while they work on a trade;
      3)They understand that Sharpe will not fall to them, and are more interested in other targets (Ivey, Daniels) should they succeed in trading up.

      I hope it’s 3.

    43. First and best: In the Air Tonight on Miami Vice- total game changer. Miami Vice doesn’t get the credit it deserves for really pushing the production value of television closer to that of movies especially with regard to soundtrack. Not a great show but important.

    44. Agreed on Miami Vice’s enormous influence on how TV uses music, Nicos. And that usage is so perfect that the song probably should have been retired from other pop cultural use. But then The Americans’ pilot uses it pretty spectacularly soon, and I guess 25+ years is a long enough time to wait for that sort of thing. (The Americans’ pilot also uses Tusk so wonderfully that I thought that should be retired for a long time, but then I wound up enjoying how Winning Time used it late in season 1. So I’m a hypocrite.)

    45. Hollinger using his BORD$ system to project free agent salaries:

      3. Mitchell Robinson, C, New York: $18,862,212

      Robinson supported the idea of paying him like a starting five by staying in the lineup for 72 games last season. The 7-footer is also in the rare position of being an unrestricted free agent at just 24 years old. His athleticism is such that he shoots 72.2 percent for his career and has blocked 7.7 percent of opponent shots in that time, making him an ideal candidate for the shot-blocker/rim-runner role.

      So what’s the hold-up? There’s some concern that Robinson has bulked up too much (he played last year at 270 pounds), which has taken away some of the bounciness that had been his best attribute. Additionally, with no on-ball skill level or shooting range to speak of, Robinson can be a very limited option offensively, with last season’s 11.4 percent usage rate serving as a prime example.

      Overall, I’ll take the under on his BORD$ estimate, even with the upside of his age. But I do think he settles into a deal not too far below this amount annually.

    46. “I think there’s an assumption (particularly by Boston fans) that progress is linear and it’s just a matter of time before Tatum and Brown “figure it out” and lead them to a championship.”

      Those two players have now made three trips to the Eastern Conference Finals and one to the Finals and the older (Brown) is 25. Curry didn’t make his first conference finals or Finals until he was 26. There’s a small matter of Brown having the basketball IQ of a paper bag and Tatum having the competitiveness of a gerbil, but those two are still talented enough to make Boston a legit title contender for another 7-10 years.

      Mike

    47. I have no problem concluding that Pistol was a more talented player with better court vision and handle than Steph. Pistol demolished the SEC when college basketball had essentially all the best U-22 players (I think he averaged something like 44 PPG for his career, with no three-pointer, which is obviously ridiculous.) And Pistol was a nice pro, too, although he got injured a lot and got stuck on shitty teams and probably didn’t take care of himself all that well.

      The cross-era stuff just doesn’t work that well for the 70s, early ’80s guys. Weight training wasn’t even a thing, much less nutrition, biorhythms, sleep management, load management. Those dudes played ball, then went out and partied like hell and did a bunch of blow, and then came back and played the next night. Put Pete in the Puritan 21st century and he’s probably Luka-plus. Pistol had easy, natural trifecta range and never even got to use it.

      Red Auerbach wanted him at age 33 and he averaged 24.4 ppg/36.

      Steph’s obviously a zillion times better in career value.

      Ultimately, I’m not entirely sure what the point of these exercises is. Beyond just shooting the shit, which is of course perfectly fine.

    48. … OK, I had to check Basketball Reference …

      Pistol remains to this day the leading points scorer in college basketball history even playing only three years and 83 games. Career average 44.2 PPG, 3,667 total points. With no trifectas. Insane.

      People might think he played only three years of college because he went pro early, but that wasn’t it. Y’all can commence the tomato and other rotten vegetable heaving this way after I make this remark, but there was actually a time where the NCAA cared about the academic development of athletes and so Pistol like a bunch of his peers including Lew Alcindor and all the rest weren’t eligible to play varsity basketball as freshmen. (Then the TV business got hold of the sport and all that books and studying stuff started slowly fading away and now we have the ruined wasteland of today.) So it’s not as though the old school Greco-Roman ideals of the scholar-athlete and the notion of universities as developers of mind and body aren’t valid things — they absolutely are — it’s just, like a lot of virtuous things, they can’t possibly withstand the forces of capitalism and mass entertainment.

    49. The original Miami Vice was also heavily influenced by MTV. That’s really the look and feel they were going for.

    50. Like A Prayer was a very important moment in my life.

      I try to explain this to young people: “Guys, you don’t understand. The video for this song premiered in a pepsi commercial. Everyone in the country was watching it at the same time. And I guess no one at pepsi got a prescreening of it bc she was dancing in front of burning crosses and grinding on a black Jesus inside a church while simultaneously experiencing stigmata and having an orgasm. And it all ended with her sitting in a chair smugly drinking a pepsi watching her own video and smiling at the carnage that she had just wrought. And you really have to understand 1987 in cultural terms. The values of the time were closer to the American values of 1622 that 2022. This video got banned by the vatican. We had to talk about it in school the next day. I only saw it once and I still remember it almost beat for beat.”

    51. Owen I’m November 1977. And I agree it was a great time to be born. Though I think a lot people think their time is the best time. Except Milennials, who never shut up about how hard they have it.

      You ever see those memes about all the terrible things Milennials experienced? Nothing y’all lived through was more traumatic than watching your 1st grade teacher explain death to an auditorium full of children dressed as astronauts gathered to watch the Challenger lift off.

    52. Yeah, that video came out in 1989 and was bigger than the fall of the Berlin Wall for me. It was just was so bonkers.

      Pepsi dropped Madonna and let her keep the 5 million they gave her.

    53. Yeah, in the 1978 year of the podcast the Challenger will be a very big deal. So will Oregon Trail.

    54. It wasn’t banned by the Vatican; the Vatican called for a boycott of Pepsi. Standard issue political stuff, demands for boycotts and cancellation happen way more in 2022 than they did in 1987.

      I’m a big fan of the live version of the song and prefer it to the studio version. Live version is tremendous.

      “The values of the time were closer to the American values of 1622 that 2022.”

      Clearly a conceit of the U-40s but … uh … no. In fact, American society as a whole was far less Puritan than today. You essentially can’t even tell a joke in 2022. Don’t confuse the fact that there are a few more dudes calling themselves women today (*) with anything serious or meaningful.

      (*) A choice I’m happy to respect.

    55. “E – I can’t be your wingman on this one”

      ***************
      Well, that’s certainly unfortunate — but what one? The NCAA?

    56. Yeah, the halcyon days of 1987 when you could make all the racist and homophobic jokes you wanted because you didn’t know any nonwhite people and all your gay family & friends were terrified to come out of the closet.

    57. Nah, it was nothing like that. You were 10 years old. They certainly weren’t “halcyon” days in all respects, but there was no freedom along the lines you speculated upon — ask Al Campanis. Or Jimmy the Greek.

      People are chilled from speaking today. It’s a Puritanical climate riddled with all manner of uptight harpies and Karens. Some pretend that the only things chilled are “racist” and “homophobic” things — but that’s not even close to true.

    58. It depends on what you mean by “Puritan.”

      Yes, it was a lot easier to make an off color joke back then. On the other hand it was a lot more difficult to be a gay person. You damn sure couldn’t get married if you were gay!

      Some would say that punching-down racial humor falling out of favor is a sign that things are more puritanical now. Others see the loss of abortion rights and religious groups trying to take away the marriage rights of LGBTQ people as a more concerning sign.

      Different strokes and all that.

    59. On Maravich. And the other stuff. I I mean, it’s a stupid thing to argue about but Ilya Shapiro getting cancelled, while dumb, is small beer next to having to live in the closet your whole life.

    60. It was a lot easier to make any joke back then.

      Others would say that the fact that a website like KB couldn’t even manage to keep a Bob Neptune around because he occasionally uttered some Trumpy and Trump-adjacent things is a sign of the generally Puritan cultural climate. Or the fact that some people seriously thought an utterly innocuous Pepe Le Peu cartoon, of all things, was “rapey” is a sign of the generally Puritan cultural climate. Certainly the irony if not outright chuckleworthiness of the juxtaposition of that, on the one hand and “1987 was 1622” on the other isn’t beyond our comprehension here.

      I’m sure the real Puritans way way BITD had reasons for thinking what they thought and acting as they acted, too. If the judgemental think all the judgmentalism is in service of a good cause, as the case appears to be, I’m not sure why that perspective can’t simply be owned. “We judge, lest gay rights and abortion rights be lost.” (*) Pretty simple if you ask me.

      (*) Which I and millions of other non-Puritans support in full. There’s really no connection there and certainly no reason to believe gay and abortion rights can only flourish in an otherwise frigid culture. That’s a pure invention.

    61. because he occasionally uttered some Trumpy and Trump-adjacent things

      occasionally

    62. The mistake Jimmy the Greek made was saying what everyone else was saying on tv.

    63. KB couldn’t even manage to keep a Bob Neptune around because he occasionally uttered some Trumpy and Trump-adjacent things

      He pissed over every thread every day until they were saturated. The blog became unreadable because of his incoherent logorrhea. Had he not been banned, there would be no one here.

      Feels somewhat allegorical, now that I think about it…

    64. It was a lot easier to make any joke back then.

      But who cares? What was the value of that?

      There were entire groups of people feeling disenfranchised, invisible, and persecuted. But it was ok to make whatever joke you wanted to. That doesn’t seem like a fair trade.

    65. Furthermore, cancel culture and political correctness is not remotely equitable to being Puritan. The foundation of Puritan belief is the total depravity of humankind, for which me all must atone. The foundation of cancel culture is the total depravity of humans who don’t believe in what I do, for which they must atone.

    66. Hubert: But who cares? What was the value of that?

      A spirit of freedom and openness and a better culture and cultural climate?

      “There were entire groups of people feeling disenfranchised, invisible, and persecuted.”

      **************************

      Not by jokes and the culture. And there’s really no evidence that there isn’t all manner of feelings of D, I, and P today. If anything, those feelings are more widespread today. Nothing about what’s publicly expressed would lead one to seriously conclude that those things have even gone down, much less disappeared, amongst those groups.

      There’s no serious case to be made that the protective Puritanism has decreased those things. There’s no case at all that the PP has decreased the public expression of those things. They’re publicly expressed more now. (It could be that they’re expressed more now because there’s a zillion times more avenues of public expression, but I don’t know how you would isolate the two variables for study. )

    67. A spirit of freedom and openness and a better culture and cultural climate?

      Ask a gay man how free and open he felt in 1987.

    68. “There were entire groups of people feeling disenfranchised, invisible, and persecuted. But it was ok to make whatever joke you wanted to. That doesn’t seem like a fair trade.”

      Ask Don Rickles. Or Eddie Murphy. Or Richard Pryor. Or Redd Foxx.

      “Ilya Shapiro getting cancelled, while dumb, is small beer next to having to live in the closet your whole life.”

      https://www.npr.org/2022/05/05/1096920693/lgbtq-youth-thoughts-of-suicide-trevor-project-survey

      That’s a 2022 story about a survey that found “Nearly half of LGBTQ youth seriously considered attempting suicide in the past year.” That’s in 2022. Not 1972. Not 1952. 2022. So maybe stop patting yourself on the back with how wonderful everything is today and how awful everything used to be.

      Mike

    69. “Ask a gay man how free and open he felt in 1987.”

      Billy Crystal played a gay character on a TV show that premiered on network television in 1977. Why do I get the feeling you’re talking about eras and history you don’t actually know very much about.

      Mike

    70. I’d love to compare that to a survey of LGBTQ youth in 1987, but there wouldn’t have been enough subjects willing to be counted.

      And I didn’t say today was wonderful. I suggested that if Madonna released a video today of her dancing in front of a burning cross with a black jesus, no one would bat an eyelash. But in 1987, that was a cultural volcano eruption.

    71. MBunge: That’s in 2022. Not 1972. Not 1952. 2022. So maybe stop patting yourself on the back with how wonderful everything is today and how awful everything used to be.

      https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Sodomy_laws_in_the_United_States

      See all those yellow states? It took Lawrence v. Texas to overturn those laws.

      Talking out of your ass.

      Furthermore, cancel culture and political correctness is not remotely equitable to being Puritan. The foundation of Puritan belief is the total depravity of humankind, for which me all must atone. The foundation of cancel culture is the total depravity of humans who don’t believe in what I do, for which they must atone.

      This is peak KB. Well put.

    72. Billy Crystal played a gay character on a TV show

      A gay character who impregnated women, dated women, and underwent hypnotherapy to make himself not gay. What a wonderful climate that must have been.

    73. Hubert: Ask a gay man how free and open he felt in 1987.

        

      Are you suggesting that the Village People didn’t fell free and open?

      They made an ex-football player (a “second cherce all-American”) a gay guy on All in the Family in something like 1972 and ridiculed Archie Bunker’s denial of same. Disco was basically gay music, everybody knew it then everybody knows it now, and it was mass America’s most popular genre in the late 1970s.

      The idea that gay people and gayness/queerness were invisible until 2014 or whatever is fantasy history. Bears no relation to reality.

    74. “The foundation of Puritan belief is the total depravity of humankind, for which me all must atone. The foundation of cancel culture is the total depravity of humans who don’t believe in what I do, for which they must atone.”

      I doubt the Puritans really and truly thought *they* were depraved. That part is essentially just salesmanship.

    75. “It took Lawrence v. Texas to overturn those laws.”

      Those laws were rarely enforced and a lot of the sodomy laws included heterosexual sodomy (*) — and those weren’t enforced either. They were dumbass, stupid laws, but as signal of anything else cultural, they were basically useless.

      (*) Including, I’m pretty sure, the Georgia statute the SC upheld in 1986 before that case got overruled by Lawrence.

    76. They were called the village people bc the village was one of like three or four neighborhoods in the entire country where gay people could be openly gay and not fear for their lives all the time, only some of the time.

      Seriously, do you know any older gay people? You should ask them how it was in 1987 and we haven’t even touched the aids epidemic of that time.

    77. Bring back the Andrew Wiggins debate!

      Anyone want to relitigate the incinerated pick?!?!?!

      PHIL JACKSON WAS RIGHT! THERE. I SAID IT.

    78. swiftandabundant: Seriously, do you know any older gay people?

      Yes. Asking them what it was “like” in 1987 sounds like an incredibly boring topic, and I try not to be boring. Do you guys go up to 55 year old gay guys over drinks and say, “Tell me what it was like to be a gay guy in 1987”? That’s not really my thing. If they want to offer, I certainly listen and participate — but none of them ever have.
      I’ve spent a lot of holidays as a minority white guy and I don’t really say over the turkey, “So tell me what it was like to be a Black person in 1972.” Again, not really my thing. If the topic comes up, I listen and engage.

      Believe it or not, when you encounter a non-white person in the world, you don’t have to revolve your entire conversation around their non-whiteness. When you do that, it almost certainly pisses them off, or makes them think you’re kind of odd.

      Plus I lived through 1987 as a young adult.

    79. Are you suggesting that the Village People didn’t fell free and open?

      Really?

      You’re a smart guy, E. Maybe consider that “free and open for me” might not have been as free and open for everyone else (the village people notwithstanding).

    80. swiftandabundant: They were called the village people

      The VP sold millions of records outside the Village and everyone knew they were gay and were singing about gay things. If they went to backwoods Alabama, I’m sure they probably wouldn’t have felt wildly free and open, but then again neither would I.

    81. Plus I lived through 1987 as a young adult.

      You’re right, I was 10. But a 10 year old can have a keen sense of his environment.

      In 1995, I was 18 and I volunteered for the Human Rights Campaign. They asked me to get 200 signatures supporting gay marriage. Today I can 200 signatures for that in a minute. In the summer of 1995 it took me almost three weeks of trudging into Central Park with my clipboard. And for every signature I got, probably three people called me a fa****.

      I know the time I grew up in.

    82. Hubert: Really?

      You’re a smart guy, E. Maybe consider that “free and open for me” might not have been as free and open for everyone else (the village people notwithstanding).

      I was talking about a free and open culture, by which I meant primarily the freedom to make and say the art and jokes and movies and opinions you felt like making. I don’t see any indication at all that gay people in 1987 weren’t partaking of that open spirit, just as there’s no indication of that from like 1979 when disco ruled the masses.

      You’re asking a different question, which is about functioning in general society as an individual with certain characteristics. Yes, that’s part of culture in its way, but it wasn’t how I first used the word “culture.” America is obviously a better country with more legal equality for gay people and we have more of that today. The argument appears to be that we need to Puritanize “culture” in the sense I’m using the term — I guess to protect those gains?, it’s never really made clear — and that doesn’t begin to follow.

    83. Hubert: You’re right, I was 10. But a 10 year old can have a keen sense of his environment.

      In 1995, I was 18 and I volunteered for the Human Rights Campaign. They asked me to get 200 signatures supporting gay marriage. Today I can 200 signatures for that in a minute. In the summer of 1995 it took me almost three weeks of trudging into Central Park with my clipboard. And for every signature I got, probably three people called me a fa****.

      I know the time I grew up in.

      The fallacy there is that support for gay marriage parallels support for gayness and queerness. Gay marriage was a bridge too far even for people like Barack Obama until very recently. I’ve always supported gay marriage, but I certainly can see the arguments against it and I hold no grudges against the Barack Obamas of the world who were late to come around.

      My preference would be BOTH gay marriage and a “free and open” and not-uptight cancel-y culture. We have one. We clearly do not have the other.

    84. okay, anyway…

      Seems like a lot of recent prognostication puts AJ Griffin at our spot, which I like a lot better than Johnny Davis.

      Griffin has legit excellent upside if he gets his full athleticism back and Thibs works on his D. Also, his elite 3-pt shooting is perfect next to RJ… and he’s from NY (blood in the soil, etc.) He seems to be our best bet if we stay at #11.

    85. Alan:
      Bring back the Andrew Wiggins debate!

      Anyone want to relitigate the incinerated pick?!?!?!

      PHIL JACKSON WAS RIGHT! THERE. I SAID IT.

      how bout the ulimtate third rail…the 3 on 3 performance as a gauge to assess future performance…

    86. swiftandabundant: Seriously, do you know any older gay people?

      I rented a wing of a house during my senior year of college. Lived with two late-middle-aged gay men. The older of the two saw his partner die of AIDS complications during the height of the epidemic. I wish E could have been with me when he told him how his family reacted to the situation. But hey, at least he could make AIDS jokes back then.

    87. “I have literally no experience what it was like being LGBTQ+ 40 years ago.”

      “I refuse to talk to anyone who did experience what it was like being LGBTQ+ 40 years ago.”

      “There were a couple of gay characters on some TV shows therefore LGBTQ+ people experienced no discrimination and I should be allowed to use gay slurs.”

      Oh and:

      E, all merc’d out: Don’t confuse the fact that there are a few more dudes calling themselves women today

      Congratulations on being a vile piece of shit. Happy Pride Month everyone.

    88. I can tell you as a young gay man in 1987 that that Jerry Falwell shit just rolled off of my back because growing up with disco and Paul Linde as the center square let me know that deep down America had my back. I mean half of the people who were shouting die fag at us outside of gay bars probably had Village People records so no worries.

    89. Doing 2023 planning at work. My Knicks 22-23 plan:

      1) Re-sign Mitch for a long-term deal for <$16M per year
      2) Keep picks and use them on high upside two way players (eg Eason). Trade up only if you can find a reasonable deal (no future picks, IQ, nor Grimes) that leads to Ivey, Daniels, Mathurin
      3) Trade away any of Randle, Fournier, Burks, Rose, Noel, Reddish if you can get positive assets in return
      4) Explore trading away Barrett if you can get a good haul of future picks/players. He's likely to be overpaid on next contract
      5) Look for a "star" in a trade only if they're young and could improve further (e.g., Donovan Mitchell). Can trade any of the players mentioned above and up to 1 first round pick and 1-2 young players. Be open to there being no reasonable deal out there, and if that's the case, keep grabbing as many young players and picks as possible.
      6) This team won't be particularly good next year, so no mid-year trades giving away future assets allowed. Look for opportunities to grab more picks, play the young guys a lot, and if the team stinks tank hard to get a top 5 pick

    90. The older of the two saw his partner die of AIDS complications during the height of the epidemic. I wish E could have been with me when he told him how his family reacted to the situation. But hey, at least he could make AIDS jokes back then.

      *********************************

      I know people like that, too.

      The two things have little to nothing to do with each other though. People tell Holocaust-related jokes. Jews tell Holocaust-related jokes. I’m sure if you search through cultural history, you’ll find gay people making jokes about or related to AIDS.

      People generally joke about death amongst a myriad of other topics. You know this already.

      The only requirement of jokes and humor is that it be funny. If someone reacts to that maxim by hypothesizing that if someone laughs at an “AIDS joke,” whatever that is, they’re going to leave the movie theatre or the comedy club and go beat up a bunch of gay people, that’s on them. It’s not on the funny artists and the people who laugh.

    91. ““I refuse to talk to anyone who did experience what it was like being LGBTQ 40 years ago.”

      ********************

      That’s the opposite of what I said, but I can tell you for certain that if I’m talking to someone and they call me a “vile piece of shit,” I pretty much slither away from the conversation. I’ve never had to defer to it, but that’s been long-standing policy since before I was 10.

    92. I’m certainly aware that there’s no objective measure for ranking players from different eras. So I won’t really argue too strenuously with anyone who believes that Pistol Pete would not have been able to equal Steph’s achievements had he played in the 3-ball era. I tend to believe otherwise but also recognize that there’s no truly elegant way to settle the issue that would be any more persuasive than what might heard in a typical bar room debate.

      I guess the thing that set me off earlier was hearing the many morning after, prisoner-of-the-moment hot takes in which various members of the punditry declared that the world of basketball had never before seen the likes of Steph Curry as a shotmaker.

      I’m sorry but that’s just… wrong.

      Regardless of whether or not one believes that Maravich’s game would successfully translate to today’s NBA, his ability to hit absurd, wildly improbable shots from anywhere on the floor was every bit the equal of Curry’s. Of course, he did so at a time when there was no added benefit to hitting such shots so that ability is not reflected in the record books. The crazy 35 footers he’d routinely make counted just as much back then as a mid-range jumper or a 2-foot layup so unless one actually witnessed them, it’s hard to appreciate just what a unique talent he was just by looking at the back of his playing card.

      This morning, I actually listened to a few different sports talk gasbags cite Steph’s unprecedented skillset as the main argument for his consideration as a top-10 All-Time player. Knowing that skillset to, in fact, be not entirely “unprecedented” compelled me to push back against all the “Steph is in the Top-10” chatter I had been hearing. There may indeed be strong arguments to include Steph in that lofty pantheon but “he’s doing things on a baskeball court that nobody has ever seen before” is definitely not one of them.

    93. E, all merc’d out:
      ““I refuse to talk to anyone who did experience what it was like being LGBTQ40 years ago.”

      ********************

      That’s the opposite of what I said, but I can tell you for certain that if I’m talking to someone and they call me a “vile piece of shit,” I pretty much slither away from the conversation.That’s been long-standing policy since before I was 10.

      Why are you trying to cancel me? It’s just a word, why can’t you be “free and open” about the language I use? Back in the 80s, it was much freer and these snowflakes wouldn’t have cared about that kind of language.

    94. “Why are you trying to cancel me?”

      *************************************
      I’m not.

    95. I would gladly drop down in the draft if it meant moving off of Fournier’s money—or even Randle’s.

      Is it legal to use Fournier’s trade exemption in a 3-team trade with the Celtics that rids us of that contract? Maybe something like our #11 to the Spurs, Poeltl to the Celtics, and the 17 mil TE, #20, and #25 to us?

    96. Dave Chapelle’s current shtick involves an egregious amount of punching down on trans people, and he complains about being canceled yet sells out the Hollywood Bowl.

      Louis CK just won a Grammy for his album about cancellation.

      Maybe all of this shit is just a little bit overstated.

    97. My two favorite bits today are first, the use of the term “judgemental,” because of course THEY’RE judgemental, while I am simply correct. It’s hysterically myopically narcissistic.

      The other is “I mean half of the people who were shouting die fag at us outside of gay bars probably had Village People records so no worries.” I grew up in deep upstate NY. All the hard dudes in camaros looking to kick ass LOVED Queen. Loved them. Queen. They’re called Queen, dudes. It was so funny it was sad.

      That’s the humor I like, E. The kind where people step in their own shit. And don’t even know it.

    98. ess-dog: Is it legal to use Fournier’s trade exemption in a 3-team trade with the Celtics that rids us of that contract? Maybe something like our #11 to the Spurs, Poeltl to the Celtics, and the 17 mil TE, #20, and #25 to us?

      No, it is not. The only thing that the team that has the TPE can do is receive players that earn the amount of the TPE or less without having to send money back. That’s it, nothing more.

    99. JK47:
      Dave Chapelle’s current shtick involves an egregious amount of punching down on trans people, and he complains about being canceled yet sells out the Hollywood Bowl.

      Louis CK just won a Grammy for his album about cancellation.

      Maybe all of this shit is just a little bit overstated.

      It’s all trendy BS. The latest bogeyman for some to complain about.

    100. Hey, JK— I was just listening to the 2nd ELO episode, and you said “this is the point we always come to where we encounter the decline phase” of the artist (or something to that effect). In light of the Warriors, and their dominance for the better part of the Twentyteens, then their two years of injury and shoe-string re-tooling, only to reestablish themselves as champions, is there a musical artist or band that comes to mind as reaching their highest point AFTER the inevitable period of decline? The best I can think of is Beethoven, who’d been dismissed as irrelevant after he went deaf, coming back with, arguably, his greatest symphony at the very end of his career. But in your trawls through the modern acts, do any of them stand out as having “pulled a 2022 Warriors”? (I don’t mean just a solid “comeback album”, I mean their greatest success after a period of irrelevance).

    101. TheClashFan: It’s all trendy BS. The latest bogeyman for some to complain about.

      It’s one of those strange phenomena where it’s both real AND purposefully distorted. A strawman with a tiny, hidden beating heart.

    102. I don’t think Def Leppard is a serious enough act for DiscoGraffitti but Hysteria was also a seminal album for me. My first rock album. The liner notes were crazy too.

      I am fine with saying that Pete Maravich was as good a shot maker as Curry, or could have been. But he was kind of an unremarkable pro compared to his Elvis like impact on college hoops.

    103. I am fine with saying that Pete Maravich was as good a shot maker as Curry

      You really can’t front on Eddy’s efficiency that one year. Sure, Muffins couldn’t play any D, but he sure could grind in the post.

      Reading about Poole & Wiggins and their impending contracts. I didn’t realize that Poole led the league with a .925 FT% and he’s only the cusp of 23. How fucked up would it be if he turned into a real gunner while Curry is still a viable #1…

    104. is there a musical artist or band that comes to mind as reaching their highest point AFTER the inevitable period of decline? The best I can think of is Beethoven, who’d been dismissed as irrelevant after he went deaf, coming back with, arguably, his greatest symphony at the very end of his career. But in your trawls through the modern acts, do any of them stand out as having “pulled a 2022 Warriors”? (I don’t mean just a solid “comeback album”, I mean their greatest success after a period of irrelevance).

      first one that comes to mind is mariah carey and her emancipation of mimi album…

    105. is there a musical artist or band that comes to mind as reaching their highest point AFTER the inevitable period of decline?

      David Bowie, Blackstar

      I’m not arguing that it’s as influential or “great” as Ziggy, Hunky, Low, whatever. I just cannot think of a single other musical artist who was as bold and creative in 1971 as he was in 2016. Also, it is a great album.

      But then I remember how good Paul Simon’s So Beautiful or So What is, and remember that he released the S&G stuff largely in the 60s, had the S/T and TGRS in the 70s, Graceland in the 80s, whatever in the 90s, and then SBoSW in 2011. That’s some longevity, too.

    106. I think people sleep on both Poole and Payton. Those guys were incredibly useful for guys who started the year on the bench and finding and developing them is a testament to good management.

      Maravich had a reputation as a Globetrotter level showman, so I don’t think its really worth debating. We all know who the better NBA player was.

    107. Owen: I think people sleep on both Poole and Payton. Those guys were incredibly useful for guys who started the year on the bench and finding and developing them is a testament to good management.

      I mentioned that earlier. The biggest difference between the 2021 and 2022 GSW was replacing 3000 minutes of Oubre and Bazemore with 3000 minutes of Poole, Payton, and Otto Porter Jr.

    108. I’ve hated the position, increasingly prevalent in the world of fiction especially, that only members of a particular group are entitled to speak for that group. What is fiction if not an attempt to make an imaginative, empathetic leap into other lives and other ways of being in the world? Otherwise we’re reduced to the tedious world of “authentic” memoirs that are often just as false as fiction but infinitely more narcissistic.

      But E is making me rethink my position…

    109. full disclosure: I did not live during the mid 1800s, nor am I native american (actually I think I’m about 12% or so from costa rica/nicaragua gene stuff)…

      however, the POV that larry mcmurtry wrote for famous shows and buffalo hump sure had me convinced…

      I especially loved how neither of those characters were too fond of chatty folks…

    110. oops, ugh ugh ugh – meant to write: famous shoes not famous shows…famous shows just sounds crazy for a lonesome dove character :P

    111. ***David Bowie, Blackstar…. I just cannot think of a single other musical artist who was as bold and creative in 1971 as he was in 2016. Also, it is a great album.***

      Aha, interesting. I remember reading about it, but never actually listened to it. Will check it out.

      From the Discografitti trawl, I think De La Soul’s The Anonymous Nobody qualifies as a “conference finals” kind of comeback, but not sure it matches their early championship work. But it is really damn good (thank you J&D for pointing me it’s way:)

      I guess Elvis having a bunch of his huge songs in the 50s and 70s after farting around in Hollywood for the 1960s qualifies. Suspicious Minds, Burning Love, In The Ghetto, were all huge, career defining songs that are currently his most streamed songs.

      (And Leonard Cohen was 50 when he released his hit. Though he didn’t have any rings leading up to that that I’m aware of:)

    112. Owen: Maravich had a reputation as a Globetrotter level showman, so I don’t think its really worth debating. We all know who the better NBA player was.

      I guess your “we” does not include me, because I don’t “know” that.

      Yes, Steph has had the better NBA career. That’s indisputable. Four rings, two MVPs – hard to argue with that. But the better NBA player? That’s where you run into that whole comparing players from different eras problem.

      Not only has Steph enjoyed a supporting cast vastly superior to anything Maravich ever dreamed of, he’s also benefited from playing in an age where the rules are an ideal match for his skills. Pistol Pete, OTOH. was a man out of his time. Pete’s NBA career probably looks a whole lot better to the modern day observer if all those 30+ footers he made count for 3 pts instead of 2.

      Obviously, Pete is not on mine or anyone else’s All Time Top-10 list. It’s possible that he might have snuck onto a few had he played under today’s rules. Which is why I have a problem with putting Steph on that list. Would he still have been considered such a transcendent player had he, like Maravich, played in an age with no 3 pt shot? I’m not so sure. That differentiates Steph from some of the other “Top-10” guys, i.e. the likes of MJ, LeBron, Kareem, Magic – who are all easy to imagine being great in any era. In a world without a 3-point shot, is Steph Curry anything other than a “Globetrotter level showman” himself? Therein lies the unanswerable question at the heart of this debate.

      And so here we are. Notwithstanding your stated certainty that there is no question as to who the better NBA player is, I can not agree. Thus do we find ourselves in just another one of those cross-era barroom arguments that changes no minds and ultimately ends in a stalemate.

    113. ***Anyone who seriously believes that Steph Curry is (1) a Top-5 player, all time; and (2) is displaying a skillset never before seen in the NBA is either too young…Pistol Pete was every bit Steph’s equal***

      Umm… is this for serious?

      I am too young. And too unimaginative. So I googled it just now, and watched his video against the Knicks, and now don’t need to imagine it. I stand by my contention.

    114. Blackstar is truly exceptional, it’s a very moving album and will have eternal staying power. It was also the first truly great Bowie record since Scary Monsters, so that definitely qualifies as a 2022 Warriors kind of record.

    115. I keep thinking Stevie Wonder and Marvin Gaye, post-Tammy Tyrell. But I don’t really think either of them crashed and burned and then rose again, it was more like they had great success and then reinvented themselves as much better versions of themselves…

    116. I’ve hated the position, increasingly prevalent in the world of fiction especially, that only members of a particular group are entitled to speak for that group. What is fiction if not an attempt to make an imaginative, empathetic leap into other lives and other ways of being in the world? Otherwise we’re reduced to the tedious world of “authentic” memoirs that are often just as false as fiction but infinitely more narcissistic.

      Good post

      We all need to agree that there are four eras of ball:

      1) no shot clock
      2) no 3PT line
      3) hand-checking
      4) no hand-checking

      It’s rolling the stone up the hill every time you make an argument that, say, a player from (1) is better than (4). The stone will roll back down. No one will ever win.

    117. Twitter report:

      #Sources — New York has offered Alec Burks, Nerlens Noel and pick 11 to Portland for pick 7. #NBA

      I don’t know why this came out right now (2am NY time and 11pm in Portland) nor do I know if it’s true, but I pass it on anyway.

      My opinion, it seems like a lot to move up but the two players are not that much of a loss, so I would do it if Portland said yes.

    118. I mean, Burks and Noel are capable players, but we have young guys who can take their spots.

    119. geo:
      just because – original song in a movie: save me – magnolia; original song for tv: angela – taxi…

      nice version where bob james is playing…
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqw3UNXUdbU

      Back in the day I got a recorded-from-radio tape of Weezer’s “Buddy Holly” from a buddy, which had been recorded over an earlier dubbing of “Angela.” But only a snippet. No words, nothing for me to identify it with. The Rhodes piano haunted my dreams for a decade before I heard it while channel surfing. Was like I hit the lottery.

    120. ***It’s rolling the stone up the hill every time you make an argument that, say, a player from (1) is better than (4). The stone will roll back down. No one will ever win.***

      Normally I agree, but in this case one argument is based in real accomplishments that actually occurred, and the other side is based in imagination and what-could-have-beens. It’s kind of laughable, but not really funny, because it’s equating an accomplished black athlete with a white guy who never won shit at the pro level.

    121. Pink Floyd is a band with a somewhat unconventional trajectory.

      Their debut LP, “Piper At The Gates of Dawn” is a stone cold classic, one of the defining albums of the British Psych era. Following its release the band leader, Syd (no relation to RJ) Barrett, goes buggy and leaves the group. The remaining members spend the next four years making some interesting but fairly unremarkable records before taking the world by storm in 1973 with “Dark Side of the Moon.”

      Now I’m not a huge “Dark Side” fan myself. Overall, I think its pretty dull; not especially interesting musically or lyrically. And – ugh – those silly sound effects (cash registers, clock noises) seem increasingly dated with each passing year. I know I’m in the minority and that most people regard it as pure awesomeness but it rarely finds its way onto my turntable.

      It’s with their follow up record, “Wish You Were Here,” that Pink Floyd reached Peak Floyd, IMO. Both the title track and “Shine On You Crazy Diamond” are masterpieces that, to my ears, surpass even the heights of “Piper.” Don’t know if that quite fits with the ’22 GSW analogy but it is certainly an example of a band finding its way again after falling off for several years following a dazzling debut.

    122. Knick fan not in NJ:
      Twitter report:

      #Sources — New York has offered Alec Burks, Nerlens Noel and pick 11 to Portland for pick 7. #NBA

      I don’t know why this came out right now (2am NY time and 11pm in Portland) nor do I know if it’s true, but I pass it on anyway.

      My opinion, it seems like a lot to move up but the two players are not that much of a loss, so I would do it if Portland said yes.

      I think the underlying motive would be to send those 2 into the McCollum TPE and then sign Brunson.

      On the flipside, Portland could trade Bledsoe’s contract and #11 for Jerami Grant.

      Knicks get a better pick & JB.
      Portland gets 3 strong rotation players who can defend.
      Pistons further their rebuild.

      Probably more moving parts but the idea seems sound.

    123. I’m all for it. My guess we will have to throw in a future second to make it work though

    124. Hubert: Hubert
      June 17, 2022 at 8:16 am
      I’m sure Thibs would take either guy at center.

      If Draymond Green played for Thibs he’d be a power forward playing next to a shot blocker on a team with terrible spacing.

      While this may have been said tongue-in-cheek, I wanted to point out that Thibs plays Taj at C and used to play Noah in a somewhat similar capacity to Draymond.

    125. Not trying to pick on anyone, it’s just because i’m a huge Steph fan. I became a fan because i “knew” he was coming to the Knicks and then he didn’t (big frustration back then), but i was already hooked up on his peculiar style of play. It’s easy to say anyone can do it, when you’re some years down the road, but at the time Steph revolutionized the game. What Led Zeppelin did is common right now, but that doesn’t change them having been highly innovative at the time.
      Here’s a good article about Steph’s accomplishments: https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/2022-nba-finals-in-boston-warriors-draymond-green-gets-his-fourth-ring-and-the-last-laugh/

    126. Count – Reranking every player based on playing by the same set or rules is above my pay grade.

      It’s a good hypothetical though because I think there are clearly players like Lebrun and Giannis and Jordan who you can imagine dominating in every era.

      I have to go listen to Blackstar now.

      Also, Rama, I agree. This stuff is complex

    127. geo: save me – magnolia

      I love that one, perfect for the movie. Thanx for bringing it back, Geo. ;)
      And how about Don’t Stop Believin’ in the film Monster (huge role from Charlize) ?

    128. I think the underlying motive would be to send those 2 into the McCollum TPE and then sign Brunson.

      On the flipside, Portland could trade Bledsoe’s contract and #11 for Jerami Grant.

      I just don’t see Portland getting Grant through a worse pick, ya know?

      If that deal was feasible, then sure, sign me up. It’s pretty much a heist.

    129. Knick fan not in NJ:
      Twitter report:

      #Sources — New York has offered Alec Burks, Nerlens Noel and pick 11 to Portland for pick 7. #NBA

      I don’t know why this came out right now (2am NY time and 11pm in Portland) nor do I know if it’s true, but I pass it on anyway.

      My opinion, it seems like a lot to move up but the two players are not that much of a loss, so I would do it if Portland said yes.

      If they really like someone and think moving up gets him, then do the deal.

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