Knicks Morning News (2022.05.21)

  • Donovan Mitchell reportedly has Hawks, Heat, Knicks on trade list; Assessing the fits – Sportsnaut
    [sportsnaut.com] — Friday, May 20, 2022 10:25:18 PM

    Donovan Mitchell reportedly has Hawks, Heat, Knicks on trade list; Assessing the fits  Sportsnaut

  • DRAFT COMBINE NEWS: Knicks add Tim Hardaway as a scout, interview draft prospects – Posting and Toasting
    [www.postingandtoasting.com] — Friday, May 20, 2022 8:35:40 PM

    DRAFT COMBINE NEWS: Knicks add Tim Hardaway as a scout, interview draft prospects  Posting and Toasting

  • Was Tony Lavelli the best accordion player on the New York Knicks? Watch this video and decide for yourself – Boing Boing
    [boingboing.net] — Friday, May 20, 2022 4:59:50 PM

    Was Tony Lavelli the best accordion player on the New York Knicks? Watch this video and decide for yourself  Boing Boing

  • NBA Trade Buzz: Mo Bamba Tells Donovan Mitchell ‘Come Home’ to Knicks – Sports Illustrated
    [www.si.com] — Friday, May 20, 2022 4:40:30 PM

    NBA Trade Buzz: Mo Bamba Tells Donovan Mitchell ‘Come Home’ to Knicks  Sports Illustrated

  • Jeremy Sochan’s mindset is NBA Draft dream for Tom Thibodeau’s Knicks – New York Post
    [nypost.com] — Friday, May 20, 2022 3:09:00 PM

    Jeremy Sochan’s mindset is NBA Draft dream for Tom Thibodeau’s Knicks  New York Post

  • Cleanthony Early on his time with the New York Knicks: ‘Basketball stopped being fun’ – ESPN
    [www.espn.com] — Friday, May 20, 2022 3:03:26 PM

    Cleanthony Early on his time with the New York Knicks: ‘Basketball stopped being fun’  ESPN

  • Stan Van Gundy & Reggie Miller Reveal Why Knicks Can’t Lure Star Power – Sports Illustrated
    [www.si.com] — Friday, May 20, 2022 2:13:05 PM

    Stan Van Gundy & Reggie Miller Reveal Why Knicks Can’t Lure Star Power  Sports Illustrated

  • Willis Reed’s iconic Knicks NBA Finals warm-up jacket up for auction – Empire Sports Media
    [empiresportsmedia.com] — Friday, May 20, 2022 12:22:47 PM

    Willis Reed’s iconic Knicks NBA Finals warm-up jacket up for auction  Empire Sports Media

  • Best Trade Knicks Could Offer Jazz For Donovan Mitchell – NBA Analysis Network
    [www.nbaanalysis.net] — Friday, May 20, 2022 12:07:04 PM

    Best Trade Knicks Could Offer Jazz For Donovan Mitchell  NBA Analysis Network

  • Knicks Plan Trade for Pacers PG Malcolm Brogdon? – Sports Illustrated
    [www.si.com] — Friday, May 20, 2022 10:55:30 AM

    Knicks Plan Trade for Pacers PG Malcolm Brogdon?  Sports Illustrated

  • Ep. 151 Shock Jacques Knicks Podcast – Posting and Toasting
    [www.postingandtoasting.com] — Friday, May 20, 2022 9:00:00 AM

    Ep. 151 Shock Jacques Knicks Podcast  Posting and Toasting

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    54 thoughts to “Knicks Morning News (2022.05.21)”

    1. I think it was iserp in the last thread who said building around Randle might actually be the smarter move.

      You can definitely make a case for that since RJs efficiency numbers have been abysmal so far. I would miss Obi, but a Mitchell trade would at least make sense as a win-now move, especially if you don’t have faith in RJ becoming better than mediocre.

      Randle will, of course, need to defer to Mitchell and possibly other players, but if he buys in, it could work. A Quickley/Mitchell/Sochan/Randle/Bamba lineup would be interesting.

    2. God help me if we trade for Donovan Mitchell and replace Robinson with Sims in the same offseason.

    3. Hubert:
      The answer is that we’re a bad team with a lot of needs, and if all we get out of a lottery pick is saving $8mm AAV on the center position then we have — once again — grossly mismanaged our assets and squandered an opportunity to improve.

      This right here is the gist of it. If we “replace” Mitch with Duren or whoever, who will almost certainly not be as good as Mitch in years 1 and 2 at a minimum, we’ll:

      1) Take an immediate step back in terms of present production
      2) Essentially, um, I’ll go with “wasted” a lottery pick in a draft swimming with intriguing wing/guard prospects to secure production at a position *at which we already have it*

      All of this for what? The difference between the $12-13M AAV we could pay Mitch and the ~$5M AAV owed to the 11th pick? Seriously? What the hell are we doing with those “savings” that makes this worth all of that?

      I guess you could say the rookie-scale salary comes with options…but boy, once you’re worrying about those you’ve already butchered the pick to high hell.

      I will repeat this is not something we’d even be thinking about if our non-Mitch salary situation was les bleak. Say what you will about BPM and other box score AIOs, but Mitch ranked 39th in the whole league this year and I don’t see a single player in the top 50 whose contract is anything even close to an albatross (Capela is probably the closest, and no one is even talking about that amount of money for Mitch). Most could be traded for value at the drop of a hat.

    4. Donovan Mitchell was rated as a bottom-20 defender in the NBA by FiveThirtyEight’s RAPTOR, which analyzes shot and tracking data to estimate a player’s impact on that end of the floor.

      AND he’s short.

    5. I dont even know why mitchell is still a talking point to trade for. Surely there will be better packages than we can offer and Mitchell cant say he’ll only go to the Knicks since hes under contract for a few more years. At least Zion could threaten to only sign with a few teams hypothetically.

    6. Fwiw, I’m not saying I agree with a Mitchell/Randle direction. That’s just where I think the FO is hoping to go. Dolan has always been “win-now” (embarrassingly, since we rarely win), so I don’t see them suddenly deciding to tear down/rebuild OKC-style.

      And I think Toppin/RJ etc is a pretty competitive package. If the rumors are true that Mitchell wants one of ATL/MIA/NY, the only better package would probably be a Herro-centered one (the guy I wanted us to draft instead of RJ).

      If I was GM, I’d rather keep RJ over Randle, simply because of age. I’d tell him to prove his worth this year and that we will match any restricted offer he gets. As for Mitch, it seems too late to keep him as he probably wants a new home and the respect he’s never gotten in from the Knicks. I would look for a good sign and trade, probably with Detroit, and try to get back a useful player and a 2nd rounder. Then I would move Randle for whatever I can get (would have to be net positive). If it’s a late first and a useful bench guy that expires soon, so be it.

      I’d be ready to roll with a Quick/RJ/Fournier/Toppin/Noel lineup while keeping all our building blocks and adding more. As such, you save the bigger decisions (RJ, Cam) for next year, and you have a ton of young guys and picks still at your disposal.

      Oh, and depending on how the chips fall, I’d probably trade down in this draft and grab two firsts (around 17 and 22) and take a point (TyTy, Chandler) and a wing (Agbaji, Beauchamp).

    7. What the hell are we doing with those “savings” that makes this worth all of that?

      It’s all so very seemingly stupid that I am now coming around to the idea that Mitch basically told them go fuck themselves and that he’s leaving no matter what. That would explain why they’re so unwilling to sign the guy, as it would be out of their hands (even there, I just can’t quite parse that with the reports that they were trying to get him to take a below-MLE contract extension, unless that offer is what made him tell them to fuck off?). It would still be weird to not have traded him in-season, but the “logic” there was pretty clear, as Thibs wanted him for the stretch run and they wanted to throw Thibs a bone because he was throwing them a bone by resting Noel and playing Sims.

    8. Maybe, just maybe, with all their connections around the league and Perry’s savvy handling of trades so far they believe that they can either:

      1. Sign Mitch for what they believe is fair value.
      2. Sign and trade him for a package that is similar to what they could get a few months ago.

      I mean there’s a possibility that they know what they’re doing. Not saying it’s close to 100% but it may be closer to above 50% than what many here think.

    9. What the hell are we doing with those “savings” that makes this worth all of that?

      Gotta save some cap space for the Alec Burkses of tomorrow

    10. Building around RJ or Randle is a pretty bad idea because neither one of those guys is a top 20 or so player. Randle-in only one season in his career-was a borderline all-star. RJ has never been league average.

    11. I’ve soured on Randle too but come on dude. He was second team all NBA.

      Deandre Jordan was first-team All-NBA in 2015-16. Was he a top 20 player that year?

    12. I know you like to think you’re smarter than all nba journalists but they decide and they watch and report on basketball for a living. It’s easy to point to a player who isn’t a hall of gamer and laugh at the fact that he was one time all nba but DeAndre was really fucking good there for a few years. Do playing with cp3 help? Obviously, but he also played really well. Just bc he fell off later doesn’t negate the fact that he was probably the top three center in the league for a few years. Same with randle. He fell hard so now you can laugh and say it was a joke but it doesn’t negate the really good season he had where he was voted an all star and selected to second team all nba. That literally made him one of the best players that season.

    13. I’m in for building around:
      High Character Team Oriented Hustle Players
      Tired of Whiners and Divas no matter how talented they are

    14. Hubert:
      God help me if we trade for Donovan Mitchell and replace Robinson with Sims in the same offseason.

      Going all-in and then not keeping a young productive player basically for just money (because we are over the cap) would really be stupid, indeed, but the idea was to keep Robinson in that scenario.

      About Donovan Mitchell’s defense, Utah’s backcourt right now is very short, and that shows. I dont think it would be as bad if you make Mitchell your point guard (which would be the type of PG that Thibs likes), or you put a tall point guard next to him (like Rubio)

    15. It seems that tnfh et. al. take each point to as extreme of a position as possible to make their position seem stronger than it actually is. No one said that drafting Duren as a replacement for Mitch for cap savings in and of itself was a good idea.

      The point is that if losing such a good player is so traumatic, it would suggest that drafting a player who replaces him for less money actually *would* be a good idea. Saying that it isn’t a good idea underscores that the loss is not all that great. Even in the face of losing Mitch, that pick should be used on a different position of need because there are more cost-effective ways to replace Mitch than squandering a valuable draft asset on him.

      It strikes me as really silly to pine over the loss of a guy who no one was willing to give up anything of value for (meaning a lottery pick or a good young player at another position) which is painfully obvious since no one made an offer good enough to change Leon’s mind even though there was a better than 50% chance of losing him for nothing. It is equyally silly to assume that a legitimate offer was actually made and to cop out behind the vague “4 teams showed interest” without having any idea of what they were willing to give up.

      Just accept that no one was willing to give up anything of value for him at the deadline. That is the starting point for any discussion grounded in reality.

      And the reason no one offered anything of real value for him was because a) he was a rental and b) he is not enough of a rare difference-maker to rent him.

    16. Folks seemed outraged at paying market-value vets like Burks, yet at $14M for a guaranteed 4 years, that’s exactly what Mitch becomes. He will likely never be worth more than that amount in the current NBA. And it’s been said here ad infinitum that the C position is the last place you want to invest money or prime draft assets. And there is no doubt that commiting to Mitch would gum up the Obi/Randle (and possibly Sochan) issue.

      Just let him walk and don’t lose too much sleep about the two second rounders we turned down to keep him. Let’s hope we get something back in a sign and trade from the team stupid enough to overpay him and move on.

    17. Brian, I think it highly likely that Mitch was offered a deal with less years and/or less money than his theoretical max. I never agree with your position that he should have been offered that amount before the season because he was coming off of foot surgery, a dicey operation for a springy big man. I agree that it would have been fine to offer it once he started playing well around mid-season, but it’s possible that they either didn’t (not ideal but understandable) or that they did and were rebuffed (Mitch might want to get paid or want a change of scenery.) In any case, it’s not as simple as “they let him walk for nothing.”

    18. Z-man: The point is that if losing such a good player is so traumatic, it would suggest that drafting a player who replaces him for less money actually *would* be a good idea.

      Why would this be the case? My point is the opposite of this is true–between Mitch and the lottery pick, we have a good chance to wind up with two good players. If we let Mitch walk and replace him with the lottery pick, we only have a chance at one good player between the two assets.

      Z-man: It strikes me as really silly to pine over the loss of a guy who no one was willing to give up anything of value for (meaning a lottery pick or a good young player at another position) which is painfully obvious since no one made an offer good enough to change Leon’s mind even though there was a better than 50% chance of losing him for nothing. It is equyally silly to assume that a legitimate offer was actually made and to cop out behind the vague “4 teams showed interest” without having any idea of what they were willing to give up.

      Surely you understand that there is a lot of space between “no value at all” and “other teams were willing to give up a damn lottery pick for him.” Lottery picks seldom get traded for anyone at all, same with young wings/guards.

      What I can say very confidently is that the 4 teams were willing to give up something, because that’s how trades work. Something is better than nothing. Hot take, I know.

      Z-man: Just accept that no one was willing to give up anything of value for him at the deadline. That is the starting point for any discussion grounded in reality.

      A bit rich to castigate people for speculating as to the package and then…

    19. Z-man: Folks seemed outraged at paying market-value vets like Burks, yet at $14M for a guaranteed 4 years, that’s exactly what Mitch becomes. He will likely never be worth more than that amount in the current NBA.

      If the Knicks signed a 24 year-old free agent who was in the top 40 in the league in BPM the previous year to a 4/$52M deal, it would probably be the most widely heralded deal in Knickerblogger history.

    20. thenoblefacehumper: What I can say very confidently is that the 4 teams were willing to give up something, because that’s how trades work. Something is better than nothing. Hot take, I know.

      Sure, you have a point. I mean if they were offered a top-59 protected second rounder and turned it down, that’s catastrophic!

      thenoblefacehumper: If the Knicks signed a 24 year-old free agent who was in the top 40 in the league in BPM the previous year to a 4/$52M deal, it would probably be the most widely heralded deal in Knickerblogger history.

      Only by the posters who don’t see past a stat they love to use when it suits your purposes but bring up its flaws when it doesn’t. But sure, he’s so good that no one would offer anything of value for him and no one will likely offer much more than that for him as a UFA. Oh, btw, the same player was signed to a 4 year deal at 1/10 of that sum, maybe that deal was just a tad better…

    21. FWIW, the Dunc’d On podcast had their Center Rankings back in March. IIRC they had Mitch ranked in the 24-30 range (they thought there were roughly 25 NBA centers better than him). At that spot they were saying you don”t really want the center closing games, but they can probably start. Other guys in the tier were Jonas Valanciunas, Isiah Stewart, etc. Robert Williams was two tiers higher I believe.

    22. abk:
      FWIW, the Dunc’d On podcast had their Center Rankings back in March. IIRC they had Mitch ranked in the 24-30 range (they thought there were roughly 25 NBA centers better than him). At that spot they were saying you don”t really want the center closing games, but they can probably start. Other guys in the tier were Jonas Valanciunas, Isiah Stewart, etc. Robert Williams was two tiers higher I believe.

      Well of course they are wrong because, well, BPM and all…

    23. Z-man: Sure, you have a point. I mean if they were offered a top-59 protected second rounder and turned it down, that’s catastrophic!

      It was definitely one of the weirder coincidences that 4 teams all called Leon Rose and said “we will accept Mitchell Robinson for nothing, take it or leave it.”

      Z-man: But sure, he’s so good that no one would offer anything of value for him

      Again, you get furious at people who correctly point out there was interest at the deadline because, in your words, they are doing so “without having any idea of what they were willing to give up.” Then you state this as if it’s a fact.

      We we offered something at the deadline. I know this because that is what “interest” means in this context. I have no earthly clue what it was, but it was better than letting him walk. This shouldn’t be controversial, I mean what the hell?

      Z-man: Oh, btw, the same player was signed to a 4 year deal at 1/10 of that sum, maybe that deal was just a tad better…

      Huh? I don’t get this. You’re comparing signing a free agent to signing Mitch after we drafted him…? That’s not how any of this works!

      BPM has plenty of flaws. It’s also a decent shorthand for production. Both things can be true, and you know as well as I do if we signed a top-40 player by BPM who was 24 god damn years old to that contract there wouldn’t be a dissenter on the whole board.

    24. ***Yes, that year he was… (I know you like to think you’re smarter than all nba journalists but they decide and they watch and report on basketball for a living. It’s easy to point to a player who isn’t a hall of gamer and laugh at the fact that he was one time all nba but DeAndre was really fucking good)***

      Actually… he was not. Those nba journalists that we like to think that we are smarter than refused to accept that 6’6” Draymond Green was, in fact, a center (even though he guarded the other team’s C more than half the time and effectively made all those D’Andre Jordan-type “big men” completely obsolete within a year).

    25. I know you like to think you’re smarter than all nba journalists but they decide and they watch and report on basketball for a living.

      It’s like Joe Morgan but instead of privileging Joe Morgan’s expertise he’s doing it for Brian Windhorst

    26. thenoblefacehumper: It was definitely one of the weirder coincidences that 4 teams all called Leon Rose and said “we will accept Mitchell Robinson for nothing, take it or leave it.”

      I know, it’s far more believable that there was some high-stakes bidding war for him and that Leon just waved them off as if he felt that a priceless commodity.

      Tell me, what do you think the offers were? Just give me an honest guesstimate. A single unprotected second rounder? A Frank Ntilikina-level project? Humor me, please.

    27. Also, let’s be real about the situation at the deadline. The Knicks were still in win-now mode and had exactly one healthy rotation-level big other than Taj. Why would they choose to take the highest offer for Mitch at that point?

      If your point is that they shouldn’t have been in win-now mode, no problem, I agree with that! But they weren’t, which is a totally different issue than whether they should have traded him for *virtually* nothing.

    28. This Knicks front office pays a lot of attention to value for money. I’m sure that they want to keep Mitch at the right price, but if they have too pay so much he becomes untraceable without a sweetener, they don’t want to do that. I’m sure they have some sort of offer on the table, but Mitch doesn’t like it or wants to test the market to find out what he can get. Then the front office can only wait until he’s actually a free agent and see what happens then.

    29. I don’t care about coaches bit Ime seems like a guy players would respond to.

    30. thenoblefacehumper: you know as well as I do if we signed a top-40 player by BPM who was 24 god damn years old to that contract there wouldn’t be a dissenter on the whole board.

      There’s a pretty large gulf between not being a dissenter and doing cartwheels. I’d be fine with it (with obviously some concerns) but “the most widely heralded deal in Knickerblogger history” is maybe just a tad over the top, don’t you think?

    31. Owen:
      I don’t care about coaches bit Ime seems like a guy players would respond to.

      Yeah, even before the playoffs I thought he deserved COTY as much as anyone, maybe more. He’s doing a phenomenal job.

    32. He fell hard so now you can laugh and say it was a joke but it doesn’t negate the really good season he had where he was voted an all star and selected to second team all nba. That literally made him one of the best players that season.

      Yes, it really does. No one in the NBA believed Deandre Jordan was a top 20 player that year. It was just that the best players were all not nominal centers that year, and since they had to name three centers (and they didn’t want to consider Anthony Davis, LaMarcus Aldridge or Draymond Green centers), Jordan was considered the best traditional center, beating out DeMarcus Cousins and Andre Drummond (The Brow didn’t even make the All-NBA team at all!). That’s all being on the All-NBA team means. It doesn’t mean that people felt that you were a “Top 20” player that year. Most of the time, the best players are also on the All-NBA team, but it doesn’t always work out that way. It didn’t in 2015-16 and it didn’t work that way with Julius Randle last year, either.

    33. Yeah, even before the playoffs I thought he deserved COTY as much as anyone, maybe more. He’s doing a phenomenal job.

      Huge fan of Udoka. Surprised it took him this long to get a gig. If the Knicks couldn’t get Atkinson, Udoka was my second favorite choice for head coach.

    34. Ime clearly doesn’t know shit about preparing a team for a big playoff game!:-)

    35. Admittedly, I am not the closest student of the league, but i have to confess that I don’t remember Udoka as a player at all. Like, the name meant nothing to me at all before this year.

    36. Folks seemed outraged at paying market-value vets like Burks, yet at $14M for a guaranteed 4 years, that’s exactly what Mitch becomes. He will likely never be worth more than that amount in the current NBA.

      You’re buying Robinson’s age 25-28 seasons on that contract. There’s a really good chance he has some of the best seasons of his career on that contract, and maybe even provides surplus value for some of the years. And even if that doesn’t happen, you’re not buying his decline phase. You can be relatively sure he’ll be productive over those seasons. He’ll be in his prime.

      Giving the same contract to 30 year old Alec Burks means there is really no way you’re getting a career year from him where he outperforms the contract, and that’s also where the decline phase starts kicking in, so you could easily end up underwater.

    37. Donnie Walsh:
      Admittedly, I am not the closest student of the league, but i have to confess that I don’t remember Udoka as a player at all. Like, the name meant nothing to me at all before this year.

      I vaguely remember him with the Spurs but his 114 minutes with the Knicks didn’t register.

    38. JK47: You’re buying Robinson’s age 25-28 seasons on that contract. There’s a really good chance he has some of the best seasons of his career on that contract, and maybe even provides surplus value for some of the years. And even if that doesn’t happen, you’re not buying his decline phase. You can be relatively sure he’ll be productive over those seasons. He’ll be in his prime.

      Giving the same contract to 30 year old Alec Burks means there is really no way you’re getting a career year from him where he outperforms the contract, and that’s also where the decline phase starts kicking in, so you could easily end up underwater.

      We actually got two of Burks’ best prime years and there is no reason to believe that he will decline next year, which is his last guaranteed year. He plays a much more vital position in today’s NBA and is making $4 mill AAV less than Mitch will make on his “max” deal. You could not possibly end up underwater on Burks’ deal.

    39. Same with randle. He fell hard so now you can laugh and say it was a joke but it doesn’t negate the really good season he had where he was voted an all star and selected to second team all nba. That literally made him one of the best players that season.

      Randle had a really good year. He was a valid low end all-star who played (a lot) more minutes than most of the guys who were better than him. I don’t think that’s a guy you want to build your franchise around even if he had kept it going. In the playoffs the guys who were better than Randle are going to play more

    40. That dumb decision by Strus might be the killer for the Heat, why he didn’t pull that ball back out is beyond me.

    41. Tatum is such a weird fucking player. One night he looks like a lock HOFer and the next night…well check out tonight.

    42. it seems like just yesterday that boston was falling apart…that did not last long enough…

    43. ***I vaguely remember him with the Spurs but his 114 minutes with the Knicks didn’t register.***

      He played for the Knicks?!

      Wow, good to know that I have successfully emptied the trash that once clogged my memory banks. (Now if I can only do the same for Jackie Butler, Bruno Sundov, Moochie Norris, and Qyntel Woods).

    44. Folks seemed outraged at paying market-value vets like Burks, yet at $14M for a guaranteed 4 years, that’s exactly what Mitch becomes. He will likely never be worth more than that amount in the current NBA.

      I think this is a very reasonable point. I doubt Mitch would ever outperform his contract and there is a real injury risk.

      But we already have all the market rate guys. I wouldn’t have signed them, but they’re here. So either stick with it or change course. It does not make sense to be capped out with Randle, Fournier, Rose, Burks, et al. and then to quibble about Mitch’s worth.

      This is now actually a hybrid method of the hybrid method!

    45. Yeah but Mitch is 23, Burks (whom I love) is in his 30s. Market value for Mitch is still a good deal bc of his age. I still think he has lots of room to grow. People forget he came into the league probably more raw than typical rookies since he didn’t even spend a year in college with a coaching staff. He also had Fizdale as a coach the first two seasons of his career and then was injured for half a season under thibs. The Mitch we saw from December in might only be scratching the surface of what he could become and even if he only marginally improves in that at his age he would be a good contract and moveable. He is elite at some stuff too. I don’t know. Seems like we’re overthinking it and maybe hesitant bc we overpaid for vets which seems like a mistake. Those vets are all gone for the most part after this season.

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