Knicks Morning News (2022.05.13)

  • Immanuel Quickley Biomechanics Breakdown – The Knicks Wall
    [theknickswall.com] — Friday, May 13, 2022 6:40:58 AM

    Immanuel Quickley Biomechanics Breakdown  The Knicks Wall

  • According to NBA sources, Knox, the Knicks’ 2018 lottery pick, could return to Atlanta, but may ha? – Hoops Hype
    [hoopshype.com] — Thursday, May 12, 2022 10:56:59 PM

    According to NBA sources, Knox, the Knicks’ 2018 lottery pick, could return to Atlanta, but may ha?  Hoops Hype

  • Knicks’ Cam Reddish working out two months after season-ending injury – New York Post
    [nypost.com] — Thursday, May 12, 2022 8:02:00 PM

    Knicks’ Cam Reddish working out two months after season-ending injury  New York Post

  • Speculation Rising Knicks Trade For Pacers’ Malcolm Brogdon – NBA Analysis Network
    [www.nbaanalysis.net] — Thursday, May 12, 2022 7:31:12 PM

    Speculation Rising Knicks Trade For Pacers’ Malcolm Brogdon  NBA Analysis Network

  • Knicks Trade for Zion Williamson? An Idea – At a Price (Obi Toppin & 5 1’s?) – Sports Illustrated
    [www.si.com] — Thursday, May 12, 2022 6:09:04 PM

    Knicks Trade for Zion Williamson? An Idea – At a Price (Obi Toppin & 5 1’s?)  Sports Illustrated

  • SEC Star Darius Days To Workout With Knicks – Sports Illustrated
    [www.si.com] — Thursday, May 12, 2022 5:25:22 PM

    SEC Star Darius Days To Workout With Knicks  Sports Illustrated

  • Knicks potential free agent target Tyus Jones’ stock rises in Ja Morant’s absence – Daily Knicks
    [dailyknicks.com] — Thursday, May 12, 2022 5:00:00 PM

    Knicks potential free agent target Tyus Jones’ stock rises in Ja Morant’s absence  Daily Knicks

  • NBA Draft Buzz: Hawks, Eason, Wizards, Smith, Cavaliers, Knicks, No. 1 – Yardbarker
    [www.yardbarker.com] — Thursday, May 12, 2022 4:37:33 PM

    NBA Draft Buzz: Hawks, Eason, Wizards, Smith, Cavaliers, Knicks, No. 1  Yardbarker

  • Sean Marks’ press conference shows why Nets are more dysfunctional than Knicks – Daily Knicks
    [dailyknicks.com] — Thursday, May 12, 2022 10:00:00 AM

    Sean Marks’ press conference shows why Nets are more dysfunctional than Knicks  Daily Knicks

  • Ranking Knicks’ Priorities for 2022 NBA Free Agency – Bleacher Report
    [bleacherreport.com] — Thursday, May 12, 2022 9:00:04 AM

    Ranking Knicks’ Priorities for 2022 NBA Free Agency  Bleacher Report

  • NBA Trade Rumors: CAA pushing for Donovan Mitchell to Knicks trade? – Sir Charles in Charge
    [sircharlesincharge.com] — Thursday, May 12, 2022 8:30:00 AM

    NBA Trade Rumors: CAA pushing for Donovan Mitchell to Knicks trade?  Sir Charles in Charge

  • Would James Dolan ever represent the Knicks on the NBA draft lottery dais? It’s about time – New York Post
    [nypost.com] — Thursday, May 12, 2022 8:20:00 AM

    Would James Dolan ever represent the Knicks on the NBA draft lottery dais? It’s about time  New York Post

  • Liked it? Take a second to support Administrator on Patreon!

    159 thoughts to “Knicks Morning News (2022.05.13)”

    1. The one i like more is Pick #1 !! LOL
      But i’ll be happy if we get to top4, no matter the position. ;)

    2. Just kiddin, i want Ivey, so a jump to Top4 is needed to get him. Maybe Top3, just to be sure, as i see teams that might take him ahead of Banchero.

    3. Apparently Jimmy Butler was yelling “Tobias Harris Over Me?!?” as he left the court last night

    4. Owen: Apparently Jimmy Butler was yelling “Tobias Harris Over Me?!?” as he left the court last night

      I thought the decision was between Jimmy and Simmons, and although they’ve been proved wrong, it would’ve made sense at the time. But Jimmy is indeed right, he was signed and traded to Miami at July 6, 2019 and Tobias was signed to a huge contract by the Sixers at July 10, 2019. :O

    5. Well, it’s twofold. They paid Harris when they could have paid Butler. But they decided to do that in part because Butler and Simmons didn’t get along, and the Sixers FO decided to place their bet on the younger player with the theoretically higher ceiling.

      No matter the motivation, it was in hindsight a spectacularly incorrect call.

    6. I think on paper it was the right call to choose Simmons over Butler but this is a great example of maybe not going with the most logical choice. Simmons was younger/cheaper/had more upside at the time…so again, on paper…that was the right move.

      But Embiid is their true franchise cornerstone player and the number one alpha on the team. If it’s true that he and Butler got along great, the 76ers probably should have taken that into consideration considering Butler is also an all-star, one of the best two way players in the league and has an insane work ethic. It probably was impossible to see the mental health issues that Simmons was going to eventually have, but from what I read, him and Embiid never got a long THAT well. While keeping Butler would have been more expensive, the flip side is at that time they probably could have traded Simmons for A LOT and surrounded and Butler and Embiid with a super deep team.

      I don’t know. It’s hindsight for sure. But if Embiid and Butler were that close and Embiid and Simmons weren’t that close, not taking that into consideration was a big misstep.

    7. Imagine the haul they could have gotten for Simmons had they elected to trade him that offseason after re-signing Butler. This would be a very different looking team.

    8. Yeah, and imagine if they also DIDN’T sign Tobias Harris to a huge contract. Although I guess since they gave up a lot for him, that was maybe inevitable.

      But damn. I rag on the process but it’s pretty clear the process itself “worked” if for no other reason than it got them Embiid and Simmons but they royally screwed up the post process process for sure.

    9. So..if the Knicks are REALLY determined to not give Quickley the reins next season, I think I’d rather shoot for Sexton over Brunson- given the way Thibs wants to play. I think Sexton is a better pull up threat and better shooter overall than Brunson- not by alot though. Here’s what puts Sexton over the top for me: I expect him to cost less than Brunson after missing a season due to injury. Plus a backcourt of Sexton and Garland is not ideal. If they’d take maybe Fournier, Deuce, and the Dallas pick I’d do it. Or Burks, Kemba, and the Dallas 1st. I think something like that would allow us to make a more thought out trade with Randle, as opposed to maybe trying to force him in a s&t for Brunson. I dunno..I still would rather see Quickley starting before I decide to trade for an upgrade at the 1- unless that upgrade is head and shoulders above Quickley. I just don’t know that Sexton or Brunson is that clear of an upgrade over Quickley because Thibs wanted him off ball until he was forced to play him at the PG spot. If Quickley isn’t good enough, we can still make an in-season trade for a PG most likely- especially if Randle is still on the roster and playing better to start the season

    10. Alan: Well, it’s twofold. They paid Harris when they could have paid Butler. But they decided to do that in part because Butler and Simmons didn’t get along, and the Sixers FO decided to place their bet on the younger player with the theoretically higher ceiling.

      Oh ok, this makes a lot more sense than Tobias over Jimmy. LOL

    11. Now ess-dog has made me focus on the draft, so i had to go to Tankathon and try to get the Knicks to the top4, which i did after 6 tries (pick #3). Not bad. :) I’m optimistic about this year’s lottery, i don’t know if this is good or bad. :D

    12. Yes they made a bad post process decision and it was a whopper. But 2 seasons after the process ended (seasons where they won over 50 games and were 3rd in the East) they were faced with the question–which of our 3 all NBA players do we need to move on from to get to the next level? So screwing up the post process is quite a harsh take in my opinion. If the Knicks ever were faced with that same question/dilemma, I would say everything right up to that point was pure genius.

    13. Here’s a question lol

      Who would you rather trade for?
      Washed Brodie or Washed Harden?

    14. cybersoze:
      Now ess-dog has made me focus on the draft, so i had to go to Tankathon and try to get the Knicks to the top4, which i did after 6 tries (pick #3). Not bad. :) I’m optimistic about this year’s lottery, i don’t know if this is good or bad. :D

      My son who is normally pretty jaded about the Knicks (understandable after being a fan most of his adult life) is convinced this is the year they move up to top 4.

      I’ll believe it when I see it. I’ll be less surprised when the Hornets get the 1st pick )-:

    15. Reposted from last thread:

      Z-man:

      On a draft note, there’s been very little mention of Johnny Davis. Is he the guy that is pushed out of the top 10 by rising stock guys?

      The other guy that gets very little mention is AJ Griffin.

      I’m not crazy about either one, but if they drop to 11 is anyone here excited by the prospect of taking either guy?

    16. Z-man:
      Reposted from last thread:

      I’m lower on both than the consensus. I’ll admit I didn’t watch much of Davis and my opinion on him is largely based on his unexciting statistical profile, but I saw plenty of Griffin and rarely felt like I was seeing much more than…a rich man’s Reggie Bullock maybe? His shooting and body do make him a lock to be a rotation player so I wouldn’t let him slip that much, but he’ll probably be out of my top 10.

      There might be a little more upside with Davis because he was able to score a lot in a variety of ways, but he was also older and didn’t really excel in any one area. I think he has higher upside, but I’d probably draft him even lower than Griffin because I don’t see a solid floor.

    17. thenoblefacehumper: I’m lower on both than the consensus. I’ll admit I didn’t watch much of Davis and my opinion on him is largely based on his unexciting statistical profile, but I saw plenty of Griffin and rarely felt like I was seeing much more than…a rich man’s Reggie Bullock maybe? His shooting and body do make him a lock to be a rotation player so I wouldn’t let him slip that much, but he’ll probably be out of my top 10.

      There might be a little more upside with Davis because he was able to score a lot in a variety of ways, but he was also older and didn’t really excel in any one area. I think he has higher upside, but I’d probably draft him even lower than Griffin because I don’t see a solid floor.

      Yeah, neither seems lottery-caliber to me, especially Davis.

    18. Daily reminder that the NBA screwed the process and not the Sixers by forcing the sycophant Colangelo family to push Hinkie out, and then Elton Brand wrecked whatever was left at that point. I wouldn’t get over it if I was a Sixers fan, that’s for sure.

    19. The post-Hinkie Sixers also had a superstar and made the choice to let him walk for…Josh Richardson:

      1. Since “why’d the Sixers let Jimmy Butler go?!” is a big topic today, figured I’d do a thread on what I’ve put together from the past few years. Some of this I’ve written before, some not. Figured would be helpful to put it all in one place. So???— Yaron Weitzman (@YaronWeitzman) May 13, 2022

    20. The big question for Philly I think is to what degree Harden was limited all season by the lingering hamstring issue. It’s definitely tempting to write him off as totally cooked the way he looked the last couple months, but he was deservedly in the MVP discussion just last season. CP3 is the obvious analogy of someone who looked pretty done around the same age but was able to get the muscle injuries under control and revert back to an extremely graceful decline phase. Obviously there’s a seemingly significant difference in work ethic between those two guys but who knows. I’m not sure what choice they really have other than to bet on that. Morey is pretty darn good at pulling rabbits out off the hat but they look very boxed in.

    21. Via Tommy Beer

      In this series, Devin Booker is shooting:

      46% when defended by Finney-Smith (40 pts)
      35% when defended by Bullock (27 points scored)
      72% when defended by Doncic (30 points)
      67% when defended by Brunson (19 points)
      16% when defended by Ntilikina (6 points)

      Deeefense!!

      The discarded Knicks are helping keep Dallas in the series. They are making things tough on CP3 too.

    22. With Davis you’re betting that he’ll be more efficient on lower usage, but keep his usage high enough to be a go to scorer. If he didn’t lead lotto picks in USG% then he’s near the top.

      He took a lot of midrange jumpers, but only hit 40% of them. If he can get that up to 45% that’s a very effective midrange shooter, but that’s a long way off.

      He brings it on defense, so there’s potential for a 3&D player with a little extra shot creation, but there’s no guarantee he’ll be a good defender. And he didn’t shoot 3s on a high enough volume.

      You’re drafting pointz!! And hoping Davis figures it out in the NBA. I get it, but I’m not high on him.

    23. Deeefense!!: Via Tommy Beer

      I have difficulty understanding his numbers. For a start they add up to 122points which is more points than he scored in the series if you subtract FTs. Perhaps he was double teamed on some shots, or perhaps an and one made FT is considered a point conceded while being guarded?

    24. Frank Ntilikina is an elite defensive wing, one of the 5 best in the NBA.

      We’ve also reached that perennial point in the late spring wherein we hear that the Process can’t fail, it can only be failed. Here’s the thing. Processians, whether explicitly or implicitly, hold that there’s an exploitable market inefficiency for talent in the NBA if you’re just willing to lose on purpose long enough. The only reason no one has exploited this so-called inefficiency prior to 2013, the story goes, is either (1) lack of understanding of its existence; or (more likely) (2) the lack of discipline or willpower to tolerate the losing.

      But there isn’t a single stitch of evidence for either of these propositions, and none has really even been proffered. It’s just an article of faith. You could plot out the post-Process performance path of the Sixers and any number of teams over the years have had as good or better path playing it straight. And if you count, as you should, the fact that one of the best winning pieces in the association, Jrue Holliday, was sacrificed at the alter of the Process, the whole thing looks even more ridiculous.

      Beyond the religion, there’s just nothing there. There never has been.

    25. swiftandabundant:
      The discarded Knicks are helping keep Dallas in the series

      So true. KP is definitely helping them by no longer being a Maverick. :)

      I wonder how KP feels about Dallas’s success after they traded him away? It must sting a little (or a lot).

    26. The Process is like The Magnificent Ambersons or the Beach Boys’ “Smile” album. We’ll never know what could have been because the creator of it wasn’t allowed to finish it.

      Tobias Harris is the equivalent of the pared down Smiley Smile version of “Heroes And Villains” in this analogy.

    27. The Sixers should have at least three stars right now, probably four. They screwed up the process royally. If it’s Simmons or Butler PLUS the assets you can get for Simmons, the latter is the clear choice. They also bungled the Harris trade + extension, and two busts in the top three in Okafor and Fultz.

    28. I think there’s a clear top three in the draft in Chet, Jabari, and Paulo. Over seems much riskier, too many question marks. Would still be happy if we had some lottery luck and got him, but would be thrilled with the other guys.

    29. Sam Hinkie stepped down in April 2016. It’s time to let this discussion go.

    30. I think Frank and Portis are doing what some of us predicted – that they’d be more valuable on a contender, doing little things that sometimes those teams are missing, like extra effort on defense and hustle (Frank), or a lot of energy and positive vibes (Bobby). On the Knicks they wouldn’t be valuable, because what we lack is what contenders have (franchise players).

    31. The premise behind the Process is false. That’s the fundamental problem. Hinkie wrote the screenplay and it was no good. Give the script to Freddy Got Fingered or Love Story to Scorsese, Lynch, or PT Anderson and you still wind up with dreck.

    32. Jrue Holiday was traded in 2013, almost a decade before he became of the best winning pieces in the association, and yet here we are in 2022 using this as an argument about how a team with a fucking MVP candidate lost in the 2nd round of the playoffs against the #1 seed in the east.

      One of the best winning pieces, Jrue Holiday, who on the Pelicans never won more than 48 games in a season and that’s with Anthony Davis for pretty much his entire stretch there. They reached the second round in the playoffs exactly once and got obliterated.
      I really like Holiday as a player but this is just flat out a dishonest argument to go against the process no matter what, and Holiday is really going from an underrated very good player to overrated in this conversation very fast.

    33. I see Frank Ntilikina has not lost his ability to get people excited following a zero point game. Good for him.

      The Process worked, that’s indisputable. The Sixers got a bunch of good-to-elite talent. At one point they had a team with Jimmy Butler, Joel Embiid, Tobias Harris, and the version of Ben Simmons that wasn’t mentally and physically broken.

      Ascribing bad decisions made *after* the Sixers had collected on all of their assets and wanted to win as many games as possible to “The Process” is lazy and inaccurate. I mean at what point do you think “The Process” ends if it’s allegedly still going on, such that all of the Sixers’ current decisions are a reflection of it? How do you define success if “getting a bunch of really good players” doesn’t meet your criteria?

      People act like Sam Hinkie said “I hereby guarantee we’ll win a championship” as opposed to “this is the best way we can get out of an Andrew Bynum fueled morass.” It’s annoying. By any realistic standard the strategy worked.

    34. Bruno Almeida: Jrue Holiday was traded in 2013, almost a decade before he became of the best winning pieces in the association, and yet here we are in 2022 using this as an argument about how a team with a fucking MVP candidate lost in the 2nd round of the playoffs against the #1 seed in the east.

      This is somehow the second time I’ve had to point out on here that if they held on to Jrue Holiday they would not have been in position to draft Joel Embiid. They also got a first for him that they turned into Dario Saric, who was (incredibly) a huge part of their trade for Jimmy Butler.

      So if you’re doing the “clearly The Process failed because the Sixers traded Jrue Holiday” bit, you literally have to take the position that Jrue Holiday is more valuable than Joel Embiid and Jimmy Butler. I like Jrue Holiday, but I can’t abide this opinion because it seems to imply that Jrue Holiday is better than Michael Jordan in his prime.

    35. Fun fact: The Kings have made the Conference Finals more recently than the Sixers. (tweeted by @statmuse)

      It’s funnier when the team that people are poking fun at is not the Knicks. :D

    36. thenoblefacehumper: The Sixers got a bunch of good-to-elite talent.

      That’s not how you measure it, because a zillion teams in association history have assembled good to elite talent without the Process and a bunch of teams in association history have put together a “run” like the Sixers from 18-22 without processing.

      There’s nothing special about the roster the Sixers have put together and there’s nothing special about their last 5 years. It’s a decent roster and it’s a decent run. It’s nothing special. There’s nothing about it at all that makes it look like it was crafted through some special insight or managerial talent.

      How would we falsify the validity of the Process? If Processians can’t answer that, it’s religion not science. We know for an observable and incontrovertible fact that it didn’t result in any kind of special roster or special run.

    37. thenoblefacehumper: This is somehow the second time I’ve had to point out on here that if they held on to Jrue Holiday they would not have been in position to draft Joel Embiid.

      That’s speculation and there are other players in the association like Joel Embiid and you don’t need a “player like Joel Embiid” to go on the five year run the Sixers have just gone on.

    38. thenoblefacehumper: o if you’re doing the “clearly The Process failed because the Sixers traded Jrue Holiday” bit

      That’s not the claim at all. The Process failed because it didn’t turn out anything special, not because they traded Jrue Holliday.

      The point of Jrue Holliday is that he has to be counted as a cost of the Process and that the architect of the Process was a moron by saying you couldn’t win with Jrue Holliday and so therefore he must be sacrificed.

      The Process didn’t not result in anything special or remotely special. The roster isn’t special, the performance isn’t special. That’s why it failed. Since the premise behind it is false, a lot of us aren’t remotely surprised that it resulted in neither a special roster nor a special run of performance.

    39. E, all merc’d out: There’s nothing about it at all that makes it look like it was crafted through some special insight or managerial talent.

      Sam Hinkie, Bryan Colangelo, Elton Brand. One of these things is not like the others.

    40. about how a team with a fucking MVP candidate lost in the 2nd round of the playoffs against the #1 seed in the east.

      LOL, isn’t Embiid also an MVP candidate?

      The whole point of the process was to build a CONTENDER and TITLE WINNING TEAM. Not to build a 50 win team that makes it to the second round only to lose to better teams. Giving them excuses like “they were one Kawhi made shot away from winning a championship” or “they lost to the #1 seed!” is just…sad. If you lose in the second round, you are most likely losing to a top seeded team. The whole point of the process was to be a contender, though. So this isn’t good enough.

      Also, yeah Kawhi made that shot in 2019. But it was in THE SECOND ROUND. People assume bc they lost to the Raptors in 7 and the raps won it all, that means they would have won it all. But they still would have had to get through the Bucks and the defending champs. No guarantee they do both of those things.

      So yeah, every time they lose in the second round, I’m gonna make fun of the process. They lost to the Celtics in 7 games in the second round the season before the process started. They sucked for 5 years and now are…a perennial second round team.

    41. E, all merc’d out: That’s not how you measure it, because a zillion teams in association history have assembled good to elite talent without the Process and a bunch of teams in association history have put together a “run” like the Sixers from 18-22 without processing.

      Which would be a great counter argument if anyone had ever said “a multiyear asset accumulation process is the only way to build a good team in the NBA.” The problem is there’s not a single person on Earth who would say that. The pro-Process position is “it was the best thing for the Sixers to embark on following a season in which they won 34 games and were out an unprotected first round pick because they traded it for Andrew Bynum, who didn’t play a game for them.” That’s it.

      E, all merc’d out: That’s speculation and there are other players in the association like Joel Embiid and you don’t need a “player like Joel Embiid” to go on the five year run the Sixers have just gone on.

      There are definitely other players like Joel Embiid. Probably two of them.

      E, all merc’d out: How would we falsify the validity of the Process? If Processians can’t answer that, it’s religion not science. We know for an observable and incontrovertible fact that it didn’t result in any kind of special roster or special run.

      If they wound up in a worse position than they were in following the 2012-2013 season, it would’ve turned out to be a bad strategy.

    42. I love how the “pRoCeSs WaS tEh DuMb” crowd just completely ignores the fact that Bryan Colangelo basically took a dump on the whole thing and made a bunch of really fucking stupid moves, making it pretty hard to really evaluate what the upside of The Process could have been.

      Nope, can’t factor that into the discussion! Must… desperately…. cling… onto…. narrative. Every year when the 76ers get eliminated it’s like a national holiday for bad takes.

    43. thenoblefacehumper: If they wound up in a worse position than they were in following the 2012-2013 season, it would’ve turned out to be a bad strategy.

      Nope. That doesn’t account for opportunity cost and the cost of losing. The Knicks are probably better off now than they were at the end of 2014. Does that mean their “process” was a success?

    44. The Honorable Cock Jowles: Sam Hinkie, Bryan Colangelo, Elton Brand. One of these things is not like the others.

      You’re projecting things on to Sam Hinkie that he’s never demonstrated and that aren’t there. That’s a religious stance, not an empirical or rational one.

    45. E, all merc’d out: The point of Jrue Holliday is that he has to be counted as a cost of the Process and that the architect of the Process was a moron by saying you couldn’t win with Jrue Holliday and so therefore he must be sacrificed.

      Who the hell said “you can’t win with Jrue Holiday?” The decision made was that the increased draft odds (used to select Joel Embiid) and future draft assets (used to trade for Jimmy Butler) were more valuable to the Sixers in 2013 than Jrue Holiday.

      swiftandabundant: The whole point of the process was to build a CONTENDER and TITLE WINNING TEAM.

      It’s quite bizarre that people have decided this is the single acceptable barometer for whether The Process was a success. There’s no reason this should be the case, unless you’re consistent in thinking every single team-building process that didn’t result in a championship was a failure.

      So the OKC team with Harden/Durant/Westbrook, the ’90s Knicks, the current Grizzlies until further notice…all run by a bunch of morons, I guess.

      I mean this same crowd waxes poetic about the job Pat Riley has done in the post-Wade Heat era, and I agree he’s done very well! But if we’re playing this silly game, where are his ringzzzz?

    46. JK47:
      I love how the “pRoCeSs WaS tEh DuMb” crowd just completely ignores the fact that Bryan Colangelo basically took a dump on the whole thing and made a bunch of really fucking stupid moves, making it pretty hard to really evaluate what the upside of The Process could have been.

      Nope, can’t factor that into the discussion! Must… desperately…. cling… onto…. narrative. Every year when the 76ers get eliminated it’s like a national holiday for bad takes.

      The Process brought in Joel Embiid and Ben Simmons. That’s not a winning duo and the Sixers never won anything with that duo. Simmons was turned over into another “superstar” and the Sixers didn’t win anything with that duo either. The other first-rounders Hinkie Processed into, he botched.

      There’s just nothing there other than the projections of the devoted.

    47. swiftandabundant:
      about how a team with a fucking MVP candidate lost in the 2nd round of the playoffs against the #1 seed in the east.

      LOL, isn’t Embiid also an MVP candidate?

      The whole point of the process was to build a CONTENDER and TITLE WINNING TEAM. Not to build a 50 win team that makes it to the second round only to lose to better teams. Giving them excuses like “they were one Kawhi made shot away from winning a championship” or “they lost to the #1 seed!” is just…sad. If you lose in the second round, you are most likely losing to a top seeded team. The whole point of the process was to be a contender, though. So this isn’t good enough.

      Also, yeah Kawhi made that shot in 2019. But it was in THE SECOND ROUND. People assume bc they lost to the Raptors in 7 and the raps won it all, that means they would have won it all. But they still would have had to get through the Bucks and the defending champs. No guarantee they do both of those things.

      So yeah, every time they lose in the second round, I’m gonna make fun of the process. They lost to the Celtics in 7 games in the second round the season before the process started. They sucked for 5 years and now are…a perennial second round team.

      And who the hell do you think I was referring to? Jesus.

      Every time the process gets brought up the amount of incredibly dishonest arguments like this that come up is insane. People don’t even read any argument about it and just go on this rage fueled tirades about the Sixers. This is pointless.

    48. thenoblefacehumper: I mean this same crowd waxes poetic about the job Pat Riley has done in the post-Wade Heat era, and I agree he’s done very well! But if we’re playing this silly game, where are his ringzzzz?

      The Process hasn’t even got past the second round. What does “ringzzzz” have to do with anything?

    49. E, all merc’d out: The Process brought in Joel Embiid and Ben Simmons.

      This is literally false, and you know that, so I can only assume you’re trolling at this point.

      As a reminder, this conversation started because people were talking about how dumb it was that Elton Brand let Jimmy Butler walk.

      E, all merc’d out: There’s just nothing there other than the projections of the devoted.

      Can you, a free thinking non-devotee, say what you would’ve done in the summer of 2013 as GM of the Sixers, that would’ve led to a better outcome than a roster with Joel Embiid, Jimmy Butler, Ben Simmons, and Tobias Harris?

    50. Before the playoffs, Brunson was at 20M/22M and Tyus at the taxpayers MLE (10M). With how they’re playing in the playoffs, maybe now Brunson is at 25M and Tyus at 15M. Does this numbers feel right?
      If Tyus is indeed above the taxpayers MLE, we’ll only be able to sign him if we open cap space, just like with Brunson (although it’s less money to open). Is there any backup plan to get a PG for the MLE, or does that ship already sailed?

    51. Bruno Almeida: Also, yeah Kawhi made that shot in 2019. But it was in THE SECOND ROUND. People assume bc they lost to the Raptors in 7 and the raps won it all, that means they would have won it all. But they still would have had to get through the Bucks and the defending champs. No guarantee they do both of those things.

      Literally zero GMs in sports history have been given credit for playoff games they didn’t win — two rounds full! — three years after they left. You know at that point you aren’t really dealing with rationality.

    52. E, all merc’d out: The Process hasn’t even got past the second round. What does “ringzzzz” have to do with anything?

      Wait, so if Kawhi’s shot rattles out and the Sixers win in OT, your opinion on this is drastically different? Does that not sound like arbitrary nonsense?

      Don’t know why I’m even bothering. There’s one “devotee” here and it’s the guy ignoring every datapoint that doesn’t fit a narrative he decided on years ago.

      Let me go on the record and say if the Knicks ever put together the equivalent of a roster with Joel Embiid, Jimmy Butler, Ben Simmons, and Tobias Harris I will regard whatever team building process they used as an unequivocal success regardless of whether or not they win ringzzzzz.

    53. Riley hasn’t had to process at all. In fact, he’s never even had like a top 8 lottery pick since Lebron left and yet he’s been to the Finals and is now back in the ECF for the second time in 3 seasons. All the while just trying to field the most competitive team as possible every season, lottery position be damned. If he can do it, then why is tanking or processing the best way to do things?

      Riley didn’t even get picks when the Miami Big Three era ended. He got nothing when Lebron left Miami to go back to Cleveland. And he got nothing for Wade leaving and Bosh retiring either. Or nothing substantial anyways. Nevertheless, here are The Heat. Always competitive. Going to the ECF second time in 3 seasons.

    54. You’re projecting things on to Sam Hinkie that he’s never demonstrated and that aren’t there. That’s a religious stance, not an empirical or rational one.

      I have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about. Colangelo and Brand demonstrated a win-now attitude, making huge trades and signing veterans in a way that looked nothing like The Process. Nothing like it at all.

      I’m not even suggesting that Hinkie could have ever built a championship team. I really don’t know. It requires a lot of luck on top of drafting skill (and he did draft Okafor, a huge bust). I’m saying that The Process ended the very moment that Hinkie was fired. So how the fuck are we describing his team-building philosophy as a failure when it was terminated before it finished?

    55. thenoblefacehumper: Can you, a free thinking non-devotee, say what you would’ve done in the summer of 2013 as GM of the Sixers, that would’ve led to a better outcome than a roster with Joel Embiid, Jimmy Butler, Ben Simmons, and Tobias Harris?

      Do you know how many teams in post-1970 association history have built better teams and better five-year runs at T+9 out from where the Sixers were nine years ago? It has to be dozens.

      And “five-year run” is giving the Process every benefit of the doubt since they were dogshit from year 1-4 and a bunch of similarly situated to 2013 teams weren’t.

    56. Wait, so if Kawhi’s shot rattles out and the Sixers win in OT, your opinion on this is drastically different? Does that not sound like arbitrary nonsense?

      But it didn’t rattle out, did it?

      LOL, hate to break it to you but pretty much any team in the playoffs can point to a buzzer beater that didn’t go their way and say “if only this didn’t happen!” But fact is, it did. And even if it didn’t, they still would have had to beat The Bucks and Warriors. No guarantee that happens.

      Second round champs! So worth 5 years of losing!

    57. thenoblefacehumper: Wait, so if Kawhi’s shot rattles out and the Sixers win in OT, your opinion on this is drastically different? Does that not sound like arbitrary nonsense?

      Don’t know why I’m even bothering. There’s one “devotee” here and it’s the guy ignoring every datapoint that doesn’t fit a narrative he decided on years ago.

      Let me go on the record and say if the Knicks ever put together the equivalent of a roster with Joel Embiid, Jimmy Butler, Ben Simmons, and Tobias Harris I will regard whatever team building process they used as an unequivocal success regardless of whether or not they win ringzzzzz.

      That “roster” was together for half a season and it was three years after Hinkie left. And it lost in the second round. It finished 3rd in the East, 51-31. Just nothing special. It only looks special to you on paper because of the Process illusion. You’re reading things into it and projecting things onto it that are not there.

      It was a 51-win team that went out in the second round as a 3-seed and Processians are turning it into like the second coming of the ’96 Bulls or ’86 Celtics. It was nothing special. There was nothing special about that team that year and nothing particularly compelling about it. It’s been given that status by a cult. If you aren’t in the cult, it’s like the ’86 Bucks or something, or the Kings teams of the early 00s. Frankly, those Kings teams were better and more compelling. The Process didn’t get as far as the Kings team that lost Game 7 at home to the Lakers in the WCF and that was a better team.

    58. That escalated quickly….

      One of my good friends is a Sixers fan who hated the Process but worships Embiid. It’s possible that it’s just very complicated for people.

    59. I could honestly give a shit about Sam Hinkie or The Process. I just can’t stand dishonest arguments like the ones we are seeing here today.

      There’s some sort of weird old man get-off-my-lawn sort of “losing on purpose is bad” emotional thing that the anti-Process brigade feels the need to latch onto, to the point where they just continue to ignore the fact that Elton Brand and Bryan Colangelo took massive dumps in the punch bowl after Hinkie was fired, thus rendering Hinkie’s grade an Incomplete.

      But anyway. You keep doing you, guys. Never change. I know this is your annual Super Bowl “I was right” parade, so have at it.

    60. swiftandabundant: Second round champs! So worth 5 years of losing!

      From a person who will die on the “this 37-win capped-out team has a great outlook” hill. Amazing stuff.

    61. Look, the process got them to be a 50 win team for the last 5 seasons with an MVP caliber player. Pretty good!

      But it hasn’t gotten them a championship or even a finals or conference finals appearance.

      Seems like a steep price to pay to be a second round team when they were a second round team before hte process started.

      And yeah, we can say “oh they didn’t get to finish the process” or “oh they messed up the post process” but that’s kind of the point. So what…another season of processing would have guaranteed them a championship or made it impossible to mess up the team once the process was over?

      Its all a PROCESS is my point. Sure, they tanked for 5 years and got to build a foundation of a good team because of that. The work didn’t end there. Can you guaranteed Hinkie wouldn’t have messed it up too? Is Hinkie choosing Butler over Simmons, the player he tanked to get?

      Processing/tanking can only get you so far is my point. You still gotta tinker around the edges. Find those great role player vets on value free agent deals. Make decisions like Simmons vs. Butler when the salary cap is in play. None of those decisions are easy. Yet people seem to think tanking for 5 years is viable path to a championship. All I’m saying is nothing is guaranteed. The Heat sure has hell don’t process or tank ever and are more successful than The 76ers. Why? Cause of coaching, culture, smart GMing beyond “lets suck so we get a high pick.” Any idiot can come up with that strategy.

    62. Is everybody ignoring that Embiid played the 2nd round with the orbital fracture?

    63. Yet people seem to think tanking for 5 years is viable path to a championship.

      Come on, dude. This is the most obvious straw man argument I have ever seen on this blog, and that is saying a lot.

    64. I’d love to rebuild on the fly, like Riley does. But how many GMs are capable of doing what Riley does? And more importantly, for us Knicks fans, is Leon capable of doing what Riley does?

    65. And Riley has a little help (Florida taxes) that the Knicks don’t.

      EDIT: Last year Lowry made 2.5M more because the Raptors were in Tampa, and not Toronto. Maybe that was one of the pros to choose Miami when he decided where he would play next.

    66. JK47: There’s some sort of weird old man get-off-my-lawn sort of “losing on purpose is bad” emotional thing that the anti-Process brigade feels the need to latch onto, to the point where they just continue to ignore the fact that Elton Brand and Bryan Colangelo took massive dumps in the punch bowl after Hinkie was fired, thus rendering Hinkie’s grade an Incomplete.

      And now the truth of what this is — as a bunch of us always knew — comes out. The Process is just Millennial’s sports way of saying “OK, boomer.” No one knew the real insights of how to build a basketball team until Millennial came along and educated the world, and the only plausible resistance to Millennial’s discovery is pre-Millennial-ism.

      That’s understandable to a degree — I mean Xers are way smarter and way more capable and put together than Boomers, without question — but it really doesn’t have much application to sports. The Process just isn’t that big a deal and it isn’t some kind of generational bedrock or voice of a generation or anything like that. The Process Sixers just aren’t that special. Not in terms of philosophy — in terms of basketball. No one outside the cult sees in the 2019 Sixers what the cult sees in them. Because it isn’t there. It really and truly isn’t.

      It’s ok to let go.

    67. I actually agree that The Process is not really a big deal. It’s not the first time somebody did a proper tear-everything-down-to-the-studs rebuild, and it won’t be the last. It was maybe a more explicit, extreme version but it’s not fucking rocket science figuring out that you shouldn’t try to win a ring by signing mediocre market value free agents and drafting 9th every year.

      Some people on this site like to use The Process as “evidence” that the best way to build a winner is by doing the same dumb shit the Knicks have done for the last 20 years, except, uh, doing it better or something. That somehow doing a true rebuild based around youth is “losing on purpose” or some other nonsense. If the Knicks continue to try to Evan Fournier and Alec Burks their way to contention, they’re probably gonna continue to be pretty mediocre for the forseeable future, because that strategy is objectively dumb.

      Whatever though! The Sixers lost, and Pat Riley something something, and this vindicates Phil Jackson somehow. Got it.

    68. The process arguments here are boring. All of you always state the same ideas about it, and no one has ever moved an inch from the first take about it. Maybe you should all agree to disagree on this.

    69. This is the most obvious straw man argument I have ever seen on this blog, and that is saying a lot.

      How is this a straw man statement? The whole point of the process was to tank FOR FIVE STRAIGHT years to build a contender. Not a good team. Not a playoff team. A contender.

      I could literally pull the receipts on quote after quote from posters during that time and right after saying they were setting themselves up for a championship by doing what they did.

      I just don’t see what was so special about. Hey let’s suck for 5 seasons so we get top picks for 5 years and will hit on good players without having to even be smart about i…how is that a strategy? Like they didn’t even make some out of nowhere genius picks with their lottery picks. They just picked the consensus best players. Hence them whiffing on Fultz and Okafor. So how is that smart or so genius? Make your fans sit through garbage basketball for 5 seasons for what? second round playoff appearances? Some what if Kawhi had missed a shot arguments?

    70. cybersoze:
      The process arguments here are boring. All of you always state the same ideas about it, and no one has ever moved an inch from the first take about it. Maybe you should all agree to disagree on this.

      Well, it’s officially “The Sixers Got Eliminated Therefore I Was Right About Everything” day, so you’re probably going to have to put up with terrible takes for the rest of the afternoon unfortunately.

    71. swiftandabundant: Seems like a steep price to pay to be a second round team when they were a second round team before hte process started.

      The price was 4 consecutive losing seasons, so 3 fewer consecutive losing seasons than the Knicks had from 2013-2014 to 2020-2021, which culminated in a team that got bounced in the first round in 5 games.

    72. Did Hinkie ever trade down one of those picks to pick up more and draft some diamonds in the rough that no one else saw was good? Nope. Just put shitty basketball on the court for 5 seasons. And then his supporters say “oh but he got fired!” Yeah, no shit he got fired. His team sucked for 5 straight seasons ON purpose. Was he supposed to be allowed to do it for two or three more seasons? Really?

    73. JK is of course correct that signing mediocre veterans at market rates in order to garner meaningless and counterproductive marginal wins — as the Knicks have done each of the last two years — isn’t the way to go about this.

      I think my Process criticisms come from: (1) a natural aversion to cults and generation-ism; and (2) in basketball terms, the Process’s implicit assumption that there’s an easy way to build a contender. There isn’t. There absolutely are better ways than others, and in some years that absolutely is to do what the Process took to extremes.

    74. I’d take Sam Hinkie as our GM right now, in a heartbeat. I think the Process was a big success, the draft busts excepted. The post-Process moves to fill out the roster were an abysmal failure, and yet they’re still pretty good.

    75. E is really tilting at windmills now.

      I completely agree The Process isn’t anything special. It’s precisely *because* of how obvious it is that asset accumulation is the optimal strategy for many teams that it even stands out.

      3-4 consecutive losing seasons with a pretty damn good chance of coming out as a 50+ win team at the end is a deal just sitting there for a lot of teams (by the way, interesting we’re ignoring that the Grizzlies fully Processed their way to their current team), and yet we still see the Knicks, Kings, etc. opt for more losing seasons with a worse payoff.

      I don’t think Sam Hinkie was a genius. I think he was more willing than most GMs to admit that 4 seasons in which you lose intentionally are better than 5+ seasons in which you unsuccessfully try to win, perhaps because he had better job security than them. That’s really it, whatever else E ascribes to the matter is the product of his own fixations.

    76. The Sixers tanked for three seasons, after which they started rapidly improving because their young players started producing.

      I could do three seasons of shitty basketball standing on my head. I know this because I have just suffered through about 20 seasons of shitty basketball.

    77. The Knicks should have Processed after they whiffed on KD in the summer of 2020. They’d be way better off now and all the marginal wins on the backs of the merc vets were counterproductive and worthless. Even worse, they’re now saddled with an albatross contract to a guy they signed to chase meaningless wins.

      And plus they were already basically two years into it already by then.

    78. JK47: JK47
      May 13, 2022 at 1:53 pm
      I love how the “pRoCeSs WaS tEh DuMb” crowd just completely ignores the fact that Bryan Colangelo basically took a dump on the whole thing and made a bunch of really fucking stupid moves, making it pretty hard to really evaluate what the upside of The Process could have been.

      But that’s a major drawback of the process…it requires a degree of patience that is almost impossible to expect or maintain.

      The Honorable Cock Jowles: (and he did draft Okafor, a huge bust).

      Noel and MCW too…

      I wish the argument wasn’t “Does The Process work as a way to build a perennial contender?” (absolutely yes) as much as “Is The Process a better path to rebuild a contender than all other options?” (highly debatable, since there is ample evidence to the contrary)

    79. E, all merc’d out: in basketball terms, the Process’s implicit assumption that there’s an easy way to build a contender. There isn’t. There absolutely are better ways than others, and in some years that absolutely is to do what the Process took to extremes.

      You’re ascribing this “implicit assumption” to the strategy. No proponent of it has ever said it is the case. In fact I am 100% sure that if you asked Sam Hinkie himself at the outset if he thought it was more likely than not to bring the Sixers a championship, he would’ve said no because I assume he understands basic probability.

      Here is the underlying opinion of Process advocates: sometimes a team reaches a place on the win curve wherein the quickest and most reliable way to become good is to prioritize future assets over present wins, and to continue doing so until they become good.

      So for example, a “Process” advocate would say things like “Phil Jackson should’ve taken on the salary dumps that led to the Jayson Tatum pick instead of signing Arron Afflalo and Derrick Williams.”

      That’s it. That’s really the whole effin’ thing. Again, whatever else you ascribe to it is an E problem.

    80. Z-man: “Is The Process a better path to rebuild a contender than all other options?”

      This is a meaningless question because it depends entirely on the starting point!

      No one can say with a straight face there was a better path for the Sixers in 2013, but if you’re the Lakers or Heat and elite free agents are lining up to sign with you all the time, then sure, there might be a better way to go about it.

    81. owen’s all ‘miami is a floodplain’ knickerblogger be like fuck miami watch this

    82. Four of the 2013 Sixers’ top five players in minutes were 24 or under. One of them, Jrue, was a terrific player. They had the 11th pick in the summer’s draft. All Hinkie would have had to do was stand pat and then draft Giannis instead of MCW. Giannis went four picks later. That would have been a far better path than Processing.

      If you have to Process and be dogshit for years on end because you aren’t swift enough to draft Giannis over Michael Carter-Williams, it’s kind of … uncertain … why we should think you’re some kind of radically insightful basketball auteur.

    83. thenoblefacehumper: Lmao

      “I don’t know talent well enough to draft a generational talent sitting there at 11, so I’m going to be intentionally dogshit for five years so I can get high enough picks that even I can’t fuck them up.”(*)

      Not exactly a ringing endorsement.

      (*) “And even at that, I’m going to spend a number 3 pick I dogshit my way into, on Jahlil Okafor.”

    84. Agreed with Zman that keeping up the process for as long as the Sixers did is probably unfeasible for a lot of franchises both PR wise and ownership wise. The thing is you dont need to tank as long or as hard as the Sixers to get a good result. I think even the anti tankers on here would be fine with 2-3 years of active processing then moving towards more winning oriented moves.

    85. If you have to Process and be dogshit for years on end because you aren’t swift enough to draft Giannis over Michael Carter-Williams, it’s kind of … uncertain … why we should think you’re some kind of radically insightful basketball auteur.

      By this ridiculous logic every GM in the NBA sucks, because every single one passed on Nikola Jokic.

    86. This is practically a dispute over religious doctrine but it must be acknowledged that the point of “The Process” was not to JUST build a contender. The implicit, and occasionally explicit, promise of “The Process” was that it would produce a SUPER TEAM. Not just a regular playoff team. Not just a conference finals team. It was supposed to produce a team that made multiple trips to the NBA Finals and won multiple rings.

      THAT’S what was supposed to justify season after season of deliberately pathetic on-court play. “The Process” was supposed to result in the equivalent of Durant, Harden, Westbrook, and even more all on the same roster. The Sixers weren’t going to be just a contender. They were going to be a Lakers/Celtics in the 80s or Bulls in the 90s dominant presence in the league.

      And whatever else you want to say, Hinkie blowing multiple first-round lottery picks made that impossible.

      Mike

    87. The question was posed as to whether there was a better path in 2013 and there was. Keep Jrue, draft Giannis. Giannis wouldn’t have remotely been a reach at 11. This wasn’t a Jokic situation.

    88. “By this ridiculous logic every GM in the NBA sucks, because every single one passed on Nikola Jokic.”

      The logic applies when you openly admit that drafting superstars is the first, last, and only element of your rebuilding plan.

      Mike

    89. thenoblefacehumper: No one can say with a straight face there was a better path for the Sixers in 2013, but if you’re the Lakers or Heat and elite free agents are lining up to sign with you all the time, then sure, there might be a better way to go about it.

      This is absurd. Multiple small market teams in the same time frame have wound up in a better place than Philly is right now by other methods. You totally discount the patience element of the process, and to a smaller degree the luck and managerial/scouting competence component.

      There were indeed better (or as good) paths for the 2013 Sixers, and I am quite confident that a strong POBO/GM combo could have rebuilt that team equally proficiently without the extremes that Hinkie employed (and his firing prior to fruition absolutely must a part of the consideration.)

      And btw, let’s not treat Philly like it’s Sacramento or something. The Sixers are a larger-market franchise with two championships, four finals appearances, lots of competitive teams, and an established fan base.

    90. It’s been awhile since I read it, but seeing it again, Hinkie’s resignation letter is the thing of toffs and lunatics. But here’s what he said about the 2013 draft night. Keep in mind that he wrote this in 2016:

      “Robert is a mistake I rubbed my own nose in for over a year. The 2013 Draft was a flurry of activity for us—a handful of trades and selections in both the first and second rounds. We had more action following the draft as we tried to finalize our summer league team and get the myriad trade calls set up with the NBA. I could see this coming a few days before and we informed the media that this kind of approach might lead to an unusually late start for the post-draft press conference. Several of you were still there late that night. At about 1:00 a.m. I went downstairs to address an equally exhausted media on deadline from their editors. When I returned upstairs, the undrafted Robert Covington was gone, having agreed to play for another club’s summer league team, eventually making their regular season roster. He torched the D-League that year, haunting me all the while. When he became available 17 months later, we pounced. But I shudder, even now, at that (nearly) missed opportunity.”

      Dude, here’s how you spent the 2013 draft night. You spent the 2013 draft night … NOT DRAFTING GIANNIS ANTENTOKOUNMPO. And now in 2016, you’re “shuddering” at almost missing out on Robert Covington? And humblebragging about “regaining” Robert Covington? Delusional.

      If you take another gander at the letter, there should really be no question why he was fired and why he’s never gotten another job in the association.

    91. To me there are three aspects to The Process:

      1. The strategy.
      2. The implementation of the strategy.
      3. Having the balls to stick with the strategy.

      On paper, the strategy was sound. You may hate the idea of losing on purpose, think it is unethical, and/or believe the strategy is realistically impossible due to the difficulties of the other two aspects. All reasonable takes, but on paper the strategy was sound (not so much now with the flattening of odds).

      The Sixers were all over the board on implementation. They successfully lost a lot of games to get in position to have good draft picks. They did well with some, blew others (Okafor), and were hideously unlucky with others (Fultz, Simmons).

      They totally quit on the strategy, with Colangelo and Brand making bad win-now decisions that were just bad decisions even in a vacuum.

      These are three different things. You have to grade them differently. I give the strategy an A (because I have no ethics), the implementation a C, and the stick-to-it an F.

      Despite that, the Sixers are perennially in the conversation about teams that can win it all. I don’t much like the “but they haven’t won it all” argument, as that relegates 31 teams to utter and complete failure. If you’re in the running year after year, something worked. They’re a flawed team (see points 2 and 3), but it worked.

    92. The strategy really isn’t sound, because there is no exploitable inefficiency there, no easy “profits.” It’s not that no team has had the will to see the process through to get the easy profits — the easy profits aren’t there to get even if you have the requisite will. Pre-flattened lottery would have been an even better time for there to be easy profits, but they weren’t there even then. Which is why no team ever Processed to try to get them.

      I don’t get the “they quit on the Process” thing either. They got Simmons even though they had Embiid and once you’ve got Embiid and Simmons, the tanking days are over.

      In terms of getting blue-chip assets, they did about as well as could be expected and there’s really nothing to complain about from that perspective. It’s just that getting two blue-chip assets from high draft picks wasn’t ever going to be enough. You needed to go outside the Process to finish things off. By definition.

    93. The Knicks have spent 20+ years sucking ass at basketball, and the one thing they have not tried during that time span is a patient, youth-oriented rebuild.

      I honestly don’t care what you call it: tanking, rebuilding, The Process. I would love to just try it again once. Just one time, clear the decks of the market value veterans that generate pointless marginal wins, build around a core of young players, sort out the good young players from the bad, and STICK WITH IT until the young players have formed a winning core.

      I’ve had it with the “hybrid model” and the fake it till you make it approach. I have seen the end result of that approach, and the end result of it closely resembles a pile of dog shit.

    94. The process arguments here are boring. All of you always state the same ideas about it, and no one has ever moved an inch from the first take about it. Maybe you should all agree to disagree on this.

      It’s not about agreeing to disagree. It’s about asking the anti-Process contingent to simply acknowledge that Hinkie was fired and replaced by someone who took the exact opposite approach to team-building.

      In the Michael Lewis book The Fifth Risk, he talks about how the Obama Department of Energy had prepared a transition team for the Trump Administration, and IIRC, no one showed up the first day, and then when the Trump team was told, “Hey, you need to send a delegation for the hand-off,” the new administration sent one or two people to manage the transition of an agency with an annual budget of $32 billion dollars. That’s when we got Secretary of Energy Rick Perry, the guy who said in 2012 that he wanted to abolish the DOE, but failed to remember the name of that very agency.

      Now imagine that you look at the state of the DOE in, say, 2019 and say, “Boy, that Obama appointee Moniz — what an idiot! Look at how dysfunctional the DOE is now.” And all the while, your critics are saying, “DUDE, THE DEPARTMENT HAS BEEN RUN BY RICK PERRY FOR THREE YEARS.” But you keep your fingers in your ears and fail to acknowledge the simple fact that Moniz had not made a single decision on behalf of the U.S. government for those same three years.

      It’s just unbelievably disingenuous. I don’t give a shit about Hinkie beyond thinking that he was doing something smart by trying to build at the top of the draft, even if the aesthetics of the Sixers’ dog days left something to be desired.

      Hinkie was not there to see his plan through to completion. There is no conclusive evidence that the Process would or would not have worked had he stayed in power. That’s the entire argument on this side. The other side is nothing if not dispositive.

    95. I don’t get the “they quit on the Process” thing either. They got Simmons even though they had Embiid and once you’ve got Embiid and Simmons, the tanking days are over.

      The tanking days WERE over. They brought in incompetents to put on the finishing touches, and those incompetents made a series of godawful Phil Jackson-level moves, which have been documented exhaustively here. Why is this even an argument?

    96. The Honorable Cock Jowles: It’s not about agreeing to disagree. It’s about asking the anti-Process contingent to simply acknowledge that Hinkie was fired and replaced by someone who took the exact opposite approach to team-building.

      They won the lottery and drafted 1 the season after Hinkie left. That season looks essentially indistinguishable from the Process, save for the fact that it resulted pretty much from the injuries to Embiid and Simmons. And then once you’ve added yet another #1 to Embiid and Simmons, and Embiid and Simmons got healthy, no one’s going to tank then so of course the Process ended.

      We have no idea what Hinkie’s non-Process philosophy was, so it’s impossible to measure how much the successor group’s philosophy differed. The successor group acquired Butler at fire sale prices; is the suggestion that Hinkie would have done something different?

      Hinkie’s resignation letter exposed him for what he was. There’s nothing confidence-inducing in it in the least.

    97. JK47: The tanking days WERE over.

      Yes, exactly — and since Hinkie never did anything other than tank, we have no idea what he would have done once the tanking ended. The cultists, for whatever reason, just blithely assume that he would have done some kind of supernatural magic jujitsu stuff, but there’s no reason at all to assume that. Like literally none. If you went purely by his track record in evaluating talent, you’d assume something like the opposite.

    98. I love Miami.
      I celebrate Miami.
      The sunshine in Miami is wonderful and the taxes? Outstanding.
      One my very dearest friends is from Miami.
      I got so drunk in Miami once that I almost had to be hospitalized, thats how much I love Miami
      If my wife had another baby I would name he/she Miami.
      But in the fourth quarter of the 21st Century I DONT WANT TO LIVE ANYWHERE FUCKING NEAR MIAMI!

    99. JK47: They brought in incompetents to put on the finishing touches,

      Those finishing touches included acquiring Jimmy Butler at fire sale prices to top off the roster the devoted all think would have won the championship but for one unlucky bounce … so what exactly is it that they did so wrong again?

      You guys have to admit that it’s getting a bit tough to follow at this point. Three years after Hinkie left, the successor group had added Butler and Harris, which made the roster one unlucky bounce from a championship (*), but yet they somehow fucked everything up? How does that even begin to compute?

      (*) If not one of basketball’s all-time greatest rosters.

    100. The cultists, for whatever reason, just blithely assume that he would have done some kind of supernatural magic jujitsu stuff, but there’s no reason at all to assume that. Like literally none.

      Uh, who? Who is saying this? Who exactly are you arguing against?

      “The Process was a failure.”

      “Hinkie got fired before we could see what would come next.”

      “Well, the Sixers haven’t won much of anything.”

      “Hinkie got fired before we could see what would come next.”

      “Yes, so the Process was a failure.”

      “Hinkie got fired before we could see what would come next.”

      “Stop saying it would have worked.”

      “Hinkie got fired before we could see what would come next.”

      You’ve done nothing but light on fire the straw-man that you created.

      which made the roster one unlucky bounce from a championship

      lol okay today I learned that had the Kawhi semifinals shot not gone in, the Sixers would have won the NBA championship

      I cannot with this level of sophistry.

    101. The problem I have here is that every time you talk about a sensible rebuild, you get the same handful of posters who reply “The Process failed LOL,” as if the Philadelphia 76ers prove that rebuilding is a bad concept.

      There’s this conflating of “build around young players” with “try to lose on purpose” that I find highly annoying.

      The whole line of argument that there is some sort of cult of Hinkie worshippers who think he is a Godlike genius is also pretty tired, and an obvious straw man.

      Who are the members of the Hinkie cult here? Do I qualify? That would be weird, because I do not give a single flying fuck about Sam Hinkie and have merely advocated for the sensible, patient rebuild that never seems to come.

    102. JK47: I honestly don’t care what you call it: tanking, rebuilding, The Process. I would love to just try it again once. Just one time, clear the decks of the market value veterans that generate pointless marginal wins, build around a core of young players, sort out the good young players from the bad, and STICK WITH IT until the young players have formed a winning core.

      Not sure if anyone here disagrees with any of this in principle. The question for me is the lilelyhood of a successful rebuild happening with shades of gray rather than this black and white approach. And of course, the answer is yes because it’s been done a million times.

    103. I agree there’s a fine line between Process criticism and seeming criticism of the right way to rebuild.

      There’s clearly a Hinkie cult out there. As Hubie Brown might say, “Come on now.” No one would ever and has ever defended a pro sports GM with a record like Hinkie’s and the only reason they do is because of the cult. He did nothing but tanking and losing for five years, wrote an absurdist if not surrealist resignation letter and still to this day, people say, “Oh, if they’d just hung onto him he’d have taken ‘Step 2’ way better than anyone else.” There’s literally no evidence that he had any Step 2 chops at all. None. (The better projection is probably that he didn’t.) Projecting “Step 2” genius upon him is the stuff of cult.

      Which is why I still don’t get Jowles’s “request for admission” that he was replaced by people with a way different team building philosophy.” Beyond tanking and losing, Hinkie’s given no indication that he even has a team building philosophy. He seems to be a quite weird dude who fancies himself a contrarian, but beyond that, there’s nothing there.

    104. I don’t think people are in a hinkie cult. But it is interesting how much people defend what he did and make excuses like “oh if he only had more time to complete it” as if tanking for 5 straight seasons wasn’t enough time. Or “oh they messed up after the process” as if all you gotta do is process for 5 (or more!) seasons and the team building will be done voila instant championship. Or “if kawhi hadn’t hit that shot” as if Kawhi should normally miss that shot. He’s kawhi leonard. He’s gonna hit buzzer beaters cause he’s a bad ass and every team that loses a close playoff series can usually point to a play and say “what if.”

      Hinkie wasn’t a genius. Saying “lets suck” for 5 seasons isn’t a strategy.

      And yeah, I wish the Knicks would do more of it too. But we actually did twice recently and ended up getting screwed draft wise both times (with KP and RJ instead of KAT and Ja although I love RJ). And despite not going all in on a multi season tank, if we’d just made sensible picks in the Frank and Knox drafts we’d be sitting pretty right now. And that’s not even counting the fact that in both of those drafts we also didn’t even pick as high as we statistically should have based on our record.

      You don’t have to try and compete with mediocre vets all the time like we have but you also don’t have to process for 5 straight seasons to build a contender. The whole thing is a process.

    105. thenoblefacehumper: No one can say with a straight face there was a better path for the Sixers in 2013, but if you’re the Lakers or Heat and elite free agents are lining up to sign with you all the time, then sure, there might be a better way to go about it.

      In 2013, maybe, but in 2015 I think they should have started shaping that future contender. At the very least, they should have offered max deals to Draymond Green and Khris Middleton, who were very young, good, and both went fairly below the max. If you don’t get them, you make your rivals pay for it (And you save face for your blatant tanking)

    106. every team that loses a close playoff series can usually point to a play and say “what if”

      Here’s the list of teams who have lost a Game 7 on a buzzer-beater:

      2019 Philadelphia 76ers

      That is the list of teams that have lost a Game 7 on a buzzer-beater.

      as if Kawhi should normally miss that shot

      Yes, an off-balance, fadeaway 2-pointer contested by Joel Embiid at the end of a grinding seven-game series is exactly what Kawhi Leonard does all the time. It’s in his DNA. Of course he’s going to make that shot. Every great player makes that shot. Great players never miss.

    107. Given the bizarre obsession with RoCo that he expressed in the letter, there’s a very real question as to whether Hinkie would have even made the Butler trade when presented, particularly when he probably also sees the drafting of Saric as some kind of misunderstood genius move.

      In any event, the conclusion that he would have made that trade, or made any other trade or move, is nothing more than an assumption with no real evidence behind it. We really have no clue what he would have done once Processing time was over. It’s all projection and speculation.

    108. If Kawhi’s shot hadn’t dropped, they would have had to beat the Raptors in OT on the road.

      Then they would have had to beat the Bucks in a best of 7.

      Then they would have had to beat the Warriors in a best of 7.

      Even if they’d done all those things, Hinkie had been gone for over three years.

    109. E, all merc’d out: In any event, the conclusion that he would have made that trade, or made any other trade or move, is nothing more than an assumption with no real evidence behind it. We really have no clue what he would have done once Processing time was over. It’s all projection and speculation.

      This is my favorite part. Some people think an unprovable alternative time would look like this.
      YOU think it’s another unprovable alternative timeline, and the people who think it’s the other one are in a cult.

      *I* want a pony for my birthday.

      We’re all right. So let’s settle down, eat some cake, and act like good children.

    110. It seems, um, some posters are really dedicated to making this debate about Sam Hinkie personally. Perhaps they are “devotees” to the idea that he’s an utter fool such that it’s hard for them to stop thinking about him.

      Here is the highest compliment I will pay Sam Hinkie: in 2013, he thought a multi year process of asset accumulation was the quickest and most reliable way to make the Sixers good. He was correct about that.

      I will repeat: that’s really it. There’s only one larger takeaway from it, which is that will also apply to other teams sometimes.

      So you can keep yammering away about Jahlil Okafor and Robert Covington or whatever the hell else, I do not care. I will continue to believe there will be times when it makes sense to prioritize future assets over present wins, and I’m extremely comfortable with the historical examples (or in the case of the Grizzlies, contemporary examples) that support that idea.

    111. Maybe that shot was lucky but jowles let me ask you this. If you were the raptors is there someone else you’d rather have take that shot in that situation?

    112. thenoblefacehumper:
      It seems, um, some posters are really dedicated to making this debate about Sam Hinkie personally. Perhaps they are “devotees” to the idea that he’s an utter fool such that it’s hard for them to stop thinking about him.

      Here is the highest compliment I will pay Sam Hinkie: in 2013, he thought a multi year process of asset accumulation was the quickest and most reliable way to make the Sixers good. He was correct about that.

      I will repeat: that’s really it. There’s only one larger takeaway from it, which is that will also apply to other teams sometimes.

      So you can keep yammering away about Jahlil Okafor and Robert Covington or whatever the hell else, I do not care. I will continue to believe there will be times when it makes sense to prioritize future assets over present wins, and I’m extremely comfortable with the historical examples (or in the case of the Grizzlies, contemporary examples) that support that idea.

      There’s never been any disagreement from me on that and in fact, I was saying it when the Knicks were overachieving in the bubble. The archives will tell the story of how well-received those statements were and it will be what it will be.

      I disagree that the Process and Hinkie stands only for that core proposition — they stand for much more — but there’s nothing left to do with that one now other than bemoan the merc-induced marginal wins the Knicks have incurred for now three years running.

    113. thenamestsam
      May 13, 2022 at 1:10 pm
      Sam Hinkie stepped down in April 2016. It’s time to let this discussion go.

      What he said.

    114. Hubert: What he said.

      Especially since at the end of the day, we all want something akin to what JK and tnfh are proposing. However, I think that there’s still ample room for conversation about the ways to do that.

      The problem is that method and execution are so linked that the arguments about methodology become unnecessarily annoying. An excellent front office with a great coaching/developing/scouting/capology infrastructure can execute successful rebuilds by a variety of methods, especially if they aren’t meddled with by a moronic, narcissistic owner. Maxing Melo, picking Frank or Knox with consecutive lottery picks, signing Noah, trading for Bargnani….those kinds of things are far more crippling to sustainable winning than signing guys like Rose, Burks and Noel to short term deals or basically trading a #19 pick for Cam Reddish.

    115. Hinkie only had the job for three years right? Why are people saying five years?

      The only thing I ever get out of these debates is the sense that it wasnt what Hinkie did that was wrong but how he talked about it.

      Its always felt like some bizarre NBA fan version of protecting the shield.

    116. I mean it’s very possible the best asset we have in this team is Quickley who we netted with a pick we got for trading a veteran. The kind of transaction I can barely remember us doing over the last twenty years.

      There were people on this blog who were against trading Morris. Well, Mills was at least. And that is insane.

      People really do believe some dumb stuff about NBA basketball sometimes. A lot of the time in my experience actually though less now than before.

      So people arguing Hinkies three years in Philly were a disaster or whatever, it’s just hard to understand.

    117. Philly is a perennial contender, and potentially champion, if Ben Simmons didn’t implode. And really, Doc Rivers had a big hand in his implosion.

      Despite the stupid Tobias Harris trade & contract, despite letting Butler walk, despite mismanaged assets, the 76ers should still have been perennial contenders. Hell, they still are despite a bunch of mistakes.

      If Philly isn’t a success to you, then I’d like to point you to Milwaukee who was considered a failure up to the conclusion of last year’s finals. It’s a myopic, results-based view.

    118. ***There’s clearly a Hinkie cult out there.***

      Out there, perhaps, but I don’t see one in here, which is where you are ranting and raving about it. Why not take the fight to the actual enemy?

      Personally, I don’t like any strategy that implements losing on purpose. I find it cheesy. But, one thing that separated The Process from a normal rebuild was that it called for an obscene amount of patience from the owner and fans. That’s why Hinkie “failed”, which is ironic, because it was specifically the patience of The Process which netted the crown jewel Joel Embiid. Embiid was injured and wasn’t going to play his rookie season, which scared off Cleveland and Milwaukee because they didn’t have any risk mitigation built into their respective strategies. E thinks Philly should have been like Milwaukee and should have “just drafted Giannis”, but Milwaukee actually passed over Embiid for Jabari Parker(!) due to a Lack of The Process of their own. It works both ways.

    119. swiftandabundant: Maybe that shot was lucky but jowles let me ask you this. If you were the raptors is there someone else you’d rather have take that shot in that situation?

      It can be true that both (1) it was an extremely difficult shot and (2) Kawhi Leonard was one of, if not the best player in playoff basketball from 2015 through 2021. If you put Kawhi in an open gym and ask him to hit that shot without a 7’1″ super-athlete trying to block it in Game 7 of a playoff series, do you really think he’s hitting it a majority of the time? And more importantly, does that amazing, once-in-a-lifetime shot mean that the Sixers are an organizational failure?

    120. Owen: The only thing I ever get out of these debates is the sense that it wasnt what Hinkie did that was wrong but how he talked about it.

      This really does seem to be more of a PR issue than anything else, because Grizzlies literally did the same exact thing and I’ve never heard anyone express anything but (correctly held, IMO) admiration for how they put this team together.

      I mean seriously, they traded all of their productive veterans for future assets, they used cap space on salary dumps for more picks instead of market value free agents, and they used extra roster spots on young flyers that could be part of the future instead of market value free agents. There was zero strategic difference whatsoever.

      There was one difference in execution: the Grizzlies had 3 consecutive losing seasons and the Sixers had 4, because of Embiid and Simmons’ injuries. Everything else was the same.

      And yet, if the Grizzlies are eliminated on Sunday I have a feeling it will not generate some reckoning about the wisdom of asset accumulation. Even if this Grizzlies’ team never wins a ring, which is likely to be the case for the simple reason that that’s always the safest assumption, it seems highly unlikely people will say their strategy “failed.” They somehow managed to pursue the strategy without generating a whole economy of think pieces and outrage.

      I actually would like to better understand what accounts for this difference. Why wasn’t what the Grizzlies did every bit as outrageous? Why are people who think they constructed this team wisely not “devotees?”

    121. Go Bucks! Let’s prevent Celtics, and Heat, from going to the finals! :D

    122. I stand by my previous statements asserting that we should seek to acquire a player of the caliber of the tall guy playing for Milwaukee.

      Holy Christ was he dominant in this quarter

    123. Memphis only had one really bad season where they won 22 games.

      Celtics are hitting absolutely everything

    124. I did not believe a playoff game in 2022 could be decided by Grayson Allen shooting terribly, but here we are.

      Jokes aside the Bucks are really, really missing Middleton right now. This game is right there for the taking but their offense can’t do anything outside of Giannis and Jrue.

    125. This is not looking good, but let’s hope the Bucks play better in the 2nd half. It’s late here, and being up to watch the Knicks, i can handle, to watch other teams, not so much. :D See you tomorrow.

    126. I’d love to see the data but the Celts have to be WAY above their expected points. So many tough shots falling. Tatum is unconscious.

    127. I hate the Celtics with all my heart but they are a tough fucking team.

      But the Bucks are badly missing Middleton

    128. 7-29 from 3PT ain’t gonna cut it against the Celts, who are probably the best team in basketball right now. I hate to say it, but they’re looking like a team that could add another damned banned to those damned rafters.

    129. Please don’t make me watch a Celtics – Heat ECF, please Bucks, I’ve never asked anything from you guys.

    130. celtics have made the playoffs in 18 of the last 21 years, winning 22 playoff series. we’ve made the playoffs in 5 of those 21 years, winning a single playoff series. they’re about to play their 13th game 7 in that span, probably the apex nba fan experience. we’ve played zero.

    131. The leaders in MP for the Celtics this year were Jayson Tatum, Jaylen Brown, and Marcus Smart.

      Hmm, I wonder how they got those guys.

    132. Beautiful Melton to Clarke lob.

      If only the Knicks were run by knickerblogger consensus…

    133. thenoblefacehumper: There was one difference in execution: the Grizzlies had 3 consecutive losing seasons and the Sixers had 4, because of Embiid and Simmons’ injuries. Everything else was the same.

      This is an absurd comparison. The Sixers won 19, 18, 10, and 28 games in consecutive seasons. The Grizzlies 2015-2020 won less than 33 games exactly once. In 2017 when they won 22 games, Marc Gasol, Tyreke Evans, JaMychal Green, Mario Chalmers and James Ennis were in their top 9 in minutes. The next season when they won 33 games, Conley led the team in minutes, followed by Gasol and Garret Temple. The only rookie that panned out was JJJ who was drafted with their own pick. Then they jumped up from #8 to #2 in a two-player draft by dumb luck, in a year where we finished with the worst record in the league. As to the rest of their current team, Dillon Brooks was drafted at #45. Tyus Jones was drafted at #24. Brandon Clarke was drafted at #21. Desmond Bane was drafted at #30. Xavier Tillman was drafted at #35.

      If anything, their approach much more closely resembles the Knicks’ approach. The difference is that they drafted better and got luckier. They made hay with their #2 (great pick) and #8 (dumb luck) finishes. We did not make hay with our #1 (dumb luck), #8 (bad pick) #9 (bad pick) #8 (Obi, TBD) finishes. But the strategies have been largely the same.

    134. Why in the fuck is Jenkins letting Brooks run the fucking offense in this fucking game?!!?

    135. “Occasionally, Brooks makes a good move, so I guess I should just let him run the offense, right?”

    136. I normally like Richard Jefferson, but come on, buddy, “He has to play like the All Star he is.” Wiggins was a joke All-Star, Richard.

    137. It’s rare to have a turnover late in an elimination game quite as bad as Adams right there.

    138. “These next five to six possessions are huge.” Okay, maybe I’ve been giving Jefferson too much credit. :)

    139. The upside for the Grizzlies is that they are still very young. They can also always hire a better coach in the future. They almost beat a very good Warriors team on just pure talent. That’s very impressive.

    140. The key for Golden State was winning game 5 by one point in Memphis. That set up this game.

    141. ***This is an absurd comparison. The Sixers won 19, 18, 10, and 28 games in consecutive seasons.***

      I agree. The Process differed from The Generic Re-Build because it intentionally put the worst players possible on the court. Guys named Henry Sims, Lionel Thompson, and James Anderson all played starters minutes even though no other team would have given them 12th man roles. If Hinkie was just a bit more subtle, like Presti and others, he maybe could have lasted a bit longer and enjoyed the fruits of his labors. But he wasn’t subtle, he was abject in his execution, and people haven’t forgotten, which is fine: it’s the cost of trying what he tried.

    142. The key for Golden State was winning game 5 by one point in Memphis. That set up this game.

      Game 1, right? I think Game 4 really set this game up more than anything, as in Game 4, the Grizzlies fell apart late, just like this game. The Warriors were confident that if it was close, the Grizzlies would make dumb decisions like Game 4 and they were right.

    143. Speaking of Presti… OKC will be in Year 3 of their process, their product was just slightly better and more subtle than The Process. Nobody knows who’s on the court at times either. Hinkie would be fired after next year. Instead of debating about the 76ers, in terms of the actual team building towards a championship contending team, how about wait and see how OKC turn out instead?

      Of course the context is different. Odds have been changed so it will be harder, but the pressure is not as high in a small market. People seem to be more tolerate as long as it’s not as blatant, with the understanding that OKC does not have as many free agent opportunities. Also because it’s SGA playing not MCW who Hinkie did sell high on. The asset hoarding is even more impressive than The Process. It’s not the same, but it’s most likely a Not-so-Generic Rebuild post The Process. Will it turn out better?

    144. Joinone:
      Speaking of Presti… OKC will be in Year 3 of their process, their product was just slightly better and more subtle than The Process. Nobody knows who’s on the court at times either. Hinkie would be fired after next year. Instead of debating about the 76ers, in terms of the actual team building towards a championship contending team, how about wait and see how OKC turn out instead?

      Of course the context is different. Odds have been changed so it will be harder, but the pressure is not as high in a small market. People seem to be more tolerate as long as it’s not as blatant, with the understanding that OKC does not have as many free agent opportunities. Also because it’s SGA playing not MCW who Hinkie did sell high on. The asset hoarding is even more impressive than The Process. It’s not the same, but it’s most likely a Not-so-Generic Rebuild post The Process. Will it turn out better?

      What OC has accumulated may be unprecedented. 3-4 first round picks in each of the next five years. And a crap ton (13) of 2nd rounders, too.

      If they draft well, they can become awesome. But, they do have to draft well. I wonder how many picks they’ll actually end up making, and how many of those will be premium top 5 picks?

    Leave a Reply